Article: 214419 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Receiving loop antenna design References: <1lCte.69055$HI.40107@edtnps84> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:34:23 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > "Owen" wrote > >>Reg, I mentioned in an earlier post that I was concerned about the >>estimate of the loop inductance. > > > Owen, > > The HF inductance of a square loop is - > > L = 0.8 * H * ( Ln( 4 * H / D ) - 1.467 ) microhenries, > > where H is length of one side, > > and D is diameter of circular conductor, > > both dimensions are in metres. > Though it looks a little different, that formula will always produce exactly the same results as the one that I have used. > There are half a dozen other formulas which at first appear to be > different from the above but can be mathematically transformed to be > identical. And then there are imperial and metric units. > > I got it out of one of one of my old notebooks. It's what I use in my > programs. I think I stole it from Terman. And Terman stole it from > Grover. So it's sure to be accurate enough for anything you are ever > likely to use it for. I looked in Terman, but didn't find it, and still can't. I might be blind! I got it from http://emcsun.ece.umr.edu/new-induct/ but it obviously shares the same root as yours. They attribute it to Grover. > > It is obviously an approximation because when a large conductor > diameter is comparable with a very short length of side, the > inductance has a negative value. Understood. > > As a sanity check, compare it with whatever formula you have used up > to now. See above. I think you are telling me I should be confident I am sane. If it was just that easy! Now I just have to find someone with access to an OATS to measure one of these things. Thanks Reg... Owen Article: 214420 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: regolazione antenna Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:43:00 -0400 Message-ID: <614fc$42bca895$438df14a$7179@ALLTEL.NET> Translation: I would want to know how to establish the best position of an antenna for optimal reception "Hal Rosser" wrote in message news:E71ve.2652$gr.1363@bignews1.bellsouth.net... > > "Nico" wrote in message > news:y8wue.32955$b5.1435976@news3.tin.it... > > > > vorrei sapere come si fa a stabilire la migliore posizione dell'antenna > per > > un'ottima ricezione > > ... > > That's easy for you to say. > I can make out the word 'antenna', and 'Dell' and something like > Rice-a-Roni. > So - to answer your question - > If you spill Rice-a-Roni on your antenna, it won't hurt too bad, but it will > probably hurt the Dell computer. > > Article: 214421 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:44:13 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bca9d5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> ml wrote: > then i think quantum things but even if i expertly understood all > these parts, would I have the answers?? (Quote from Max Planck) "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214422 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: offset diople antenna Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:52:54 -0700 Message-ID: <11bpan6pobgvq5c@corp.supernews.com> References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> Chuck Olson wrote: > > Hi, Larry, > > An off-center fed antenna doesn't necessarily produce unbalanced feeder > currents - - I'm sorry to say, it does. There's coupling from the feedline to each side of the antenna, and unlike a symmetrical dipole with feedline at right angles, the coupling from each side is unequal. This results in unbalanced feeder currents. If the feedline is twinlead or open wire line, this shows up as unequal currents on the two conductors. On coax it manifests itself as current on the outside of the shield. In both cases, the result is the same -- feedline radiation. This can be shown quite dramatically by simple modeling. I've also seen it myself by direct measurement(*). A current balun (NOT voltage balun) at the feedpoint will reduce the conducted common mode current just as it will with a dipole, but you still have to deal with common mode current due to coupling. Depending on the frequency and the feedline length and orientation, you might get lucky and not have too much feedline current. On the other hand, it can be bad enough to aggravate RFI problems if the feedline is routed near power or telephone lines, or cause trouble with your rig or shack accessories. > just a different feeding impedance level, which he will no > doubt take care of with a tuner or a 4:1 ratio in the balun if single band > use is all he wants and he can find the right spot for the feeder. Of course > the balun takes care of any unbalance that might be due to the feeder > not making a 90 degree angle with the antenna. There's nothing wrong > with his idea. See above comments. Routing the feeder at right angles to the antenna doesn't eliminate current due to mutual coupling, and neither does a feedpoint balun. >. . . (*) You'll find some measured values of feedline current and more discussion about it in "The Off-Center-Fed Dipole Revisited: A Broadband, Multiband Antenna" by John Belrose, VE2CV and Peter Bouliane, VE3KLO, QST, Aug. 1990. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214423 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Using the matchbox Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:57:23 -0700 Message-ID: <11bpavkng2gkfd3@corp.supernews.com> References: <1119554991.240126.47990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119618054.991193.201730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42bc1ddf$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > . . . > Ptolemy also reduced much of his theory of Astronomy and Optics to > geometric construction techniques in many Handbooks and offered scads > of tables of observations - some of which were condemned by Newton: > "[Ptolemy] developed certain astronomical theories and discovered > that they were not consistent with observation. Instead of > abandoning the theories, he deliberately fabricated observations > from the theories so that he could claim that the observations > prove the validity of his theories. In every scientific or > scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it is > a crime against science and scholarship." > . . . How ironic! I recall an article in _Scientific American_ many years ago which presented credible evidence that Newton himself fudged his data. The author argued, and gave examples to show, that some of Newton's data were much too accurate and consistent for the techniques and equipment he used. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214424 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Message-ID: <7a3ve.5467$B_3.113@fe05.lga> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:18:42 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C5790A.AF1C79C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Reg Edwards" wrote in message = news:d9h6q9$iss$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >=20 > "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote >=20 >> That was an administrative policy decision rather than a technical > one. >> From the technical viewpoint, everybody agrees that 120*0.25wl is > more >> than enough to override the local ground conditions under the tower >> irrelevant. >> > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > - - - - and since soil resistivity decreases with increasing > frequency, and the impedance due to soil capacitance also decreases > with increasing frequency, everybody agrees that 1/8th wavelength or > less is more than long enough. Reg, do you really mean what you said above, 'soil resistivity decreases = with increasing frequency'? Are you sure you didn't mean soil = conductivity decreases with increasing frequency? In my experience with = AM BC antennas I've found that conductivity decreases, not resistivity.=20 The FCC charts showing signal level vs conductivity and frequency = overwhelmingly show conductivity decreasing with frequency. So you ask, = what proof is there that the FCC charts are correct? Well, Reg, soil = conductivity measurements of thousands of AM antenna systems world wide = have proved them correct. As an example that I posted a few days ago, consider the coverage area = >from afforded by a single 1/4wl vertical radiating 250 watts at 550 KHz = with a signal strength of 1 mv/meter at one mile and a conductivity of = 8. If the frequency were raised to 1500 KHz with a 1/4wl vertical at = that frequency, the power required to cover the same area is 47 KW. =20 Does this example indicate a decreasing soil resitivity with increasing = frequency or a decreasing soil conductivity? Walt, W2DU ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C5790A.AF1C79C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote=20 in message news:d9h6q9$iss$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Ian White GM3SEK" =20 wrote
>
>> That was an administrative policy decision = rather=20 than a technical
> one.
>>  From the technical = viewpoint,=20 everybody agrees that 120*0.25wl is
> more
>> than enough = to=20 override the local ground conditions under the tower
>>=20 irrelevant.
>>
> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20
> - - - -  and since soil resistivity decreases with=20 increasing
> frequency, and the impedance due to soil capacitance = also=20 decreases
> with increasing frequency, everybody agrees that 1/8th = wavelength or
> less is more than long enough.
 
Reg, do you really mean what you said=20 above, 'soil resistivity decreases with increasing frequency'? Are = you sure=20 you didn't mean soil conductivity decreases with increasing = frequency? In=20 my experience with AM BC antennas I've found that conductivity = decreases, not=20 resistivity.
 
The FCC charts showing signal level vs = conductivity=20 and frequency overwhelmingly show conductivity decreasing with = frequency. So you=20 ask, what proof is there that the FCC charts are correct? Well, Reg, = soil=20 conductivity measurements of thousands of AM antenna systems world wide = have=20 proved them correct.
 
As an example that I posted a few days = ago,=20 consider the coverage area from afforded by a single 1/4wl vertical=20 radiating 250 watts at 550 KHz with a signal strength of 1 mv/meter = at=20 one mile and a conductivity of 8. If the frequency were raised = to 1500=20 KHz with a 1/4wl vertical at that frequency, the power required to cover = the=20 same area is 47 KW.  
 
Does this example indicate a decreasing = soil=20 resitivity with increasing frequency or a decreasing=20 soil conductivity?
 
Walt, W2DU
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C5790A.AF1C79C0-- Article: 214425 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <614fc$42bca895$438df14a$7179@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: regolazione antenna Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:54:34 -0400 "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:614fc$42bca895$438df14a$7179@ALLTEL.NET... > Translation: > I would want to know how to establish the best position of an antenna for > optimal reception Kool - New answer based on that translation: Best position is Up HIGH!!! big altitude on top of bigum pole maximus hight sky-high Article: 214426 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: offset diople antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 04:12:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> I'm not quite clear what you are talking about, but the impedance seen looking into the feedpoint of a 1/2-wave resonant dipole when the feedpoint is at the centre, is a purely resistive 70 to 73 ohms. As the feedpoint is moved away from the centre the impedance rapidly increases (approximately proportional to the square of the offset) BUT REMAINS PURELY RESISTIVE until, as the feedpoint nears the end of the dipole, it rises to several thousand ohms, purely resistive. This is the impedance which terminates the twin feedline. But if there is a choke in the line at this point then the choke can be considered to be a short length of line of the same length and Zo as is wound on the choke. The short length of line on the choke will then TRANSFORM the antenna input impedance to a somwhat different value to terminate the line. (For the purpose of calculating SWR on the line, and the line's input impedance, etc.) Now carry on from there. ;o) ---- Reg, G4FGQ "Chuck Olson" wrote in message news:Iradne3JiLfrGCHfRVn-sA@comcast.com... > > "larry" wrote in message > news:_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com... > > Greetings > > > > A gentleman on another group.. is telling me that he wants to put up an > > offset dipole antenna and feed it with a balum.. He is a new amateur and I > > can tell he does't have much antenna knowledge... > > > > He is being advise to use an offset antenna wich in my mind isn't the best > > answer to his problem.... > > > > Does anyone know of a website that describes the offset antenna better > than > > I can.... > > > > Larry ve3fxq > > Hi, Larry, > > An off-center fed antenna doesn't necessarily produce unbalanced feeder > currents - - just a different feeding impedance level, which he will no > doubt take care of with a tuner or a 4:1 ratio in the balun if single band > use is all he wants and he can find the right spot for the feeder. Of course > the balun takes care of any unbalance that might be due to the feeder > not making a 90 degree angle with the antenna. There's nothing wrong > with his idea. > > I just typed it balum, too, so don't be concerned - - we all make typos. > > 73, Chuck W6PKP > > > > Article: 214427 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Using the matchbox Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:22:28 -0400 Message-ID: <11bpmtiaq7flee@corp.supernews.com> References: <1119554991.240126.47990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119618054.991193.201730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42bc1ddf$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11bpavkng2gkfd3@corp.supernews.com> ... and, while I may have misplaced the place where this happened (I could have heard this when I was at U of Manchester), it seems that an extensive set of early measurements of c were deliberately "sorted" and produced an expected value and std that was outside of the actual value of c. When the logbooks containing all of the measurements were consulted many decades later, it was found that if one used all of the measurements the actual expected value of c was within the expected error. It is late and I have not quite said everything right. The (old) published expected c and its std were well outside of the actual c. When the old data was used in its entirety, the newly calculated expected c and its std encompassed the actual value of c. (Note "expected" has a technical meaning.) The moral is to keep a complete log and be honest. It is much more easy to do both when one has numbers. Before some of my work at Ohio State, one had to extract numbers from strip chart recordings using slave labor. Mac (who should be in bed) N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11bpavkng2gkfd3@corp.supernews.com... > Richard Clark wrote: > > . . . > > Ptolemy also reduced much of his theory of Astronomy and Optics to > > geometric construction techniques in many Handbooks and offered scads > > of tables of observations - some of which were condemned by Newton: > > "[Ptolemy] developed certain astronomical theories and discovered > > that they were not consistent with observation. Instead of > > abandoning the theories, he deliberately fabricated observations > > from the theories so that he could claim that the observations > > prove the validity of his theories. In every scientific or > > scholarly setting known, this practice is called fraud, and it is > > a crime against science and scholarship." > > . . . > > How ironic! I recall an article in _Scientific American_ many years ago > which presented credible evidence that Newton himself fudged his data. > The author argued, and gave examples to show, that some of Newton's data > were much too accurate and consistent for the techniques and equipment > he used. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214428 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:42:31 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> <7a3ve.5467$B_3.113@fe05.lga> Walter, Your ancient charts, which I think I have once seen but don't now have ready access to, apply to LF. Permittivity was ignored when they were calculated. The curves were intended to be used as a guide, better than nothing, rather than the Bible on the subject. But amateurs are concerned with what happens at HF. There are a lot of MHz between 16 KHz, 500 KHz and 40 MHz I think the discrepancy about conductivity vs frequency is due to simplification of the equivalent circuit of soil which, in its most simple form, is a resistor in shunt with a capacitor. As frequency increases the capacitative impedance decreases and drags the equivalent resistive component down with it. There is a significant decrease at around 7 MHz. At 30 or 40 MHz the soil has changed from being mainly resistive at LF to being mainly capacitative and not nearly so lossy. The capacitance between a pair of 1 metre square plates, spaced 1 metre apart, is only 8.8 pF. But when muliplied by the permittivity of damp soil the impedance at 30 MHz is quite low. The permittivity of water is 80. Simple conductivity does not apply. We are not talking about the same things. Actually, its not worth arguing about. The uncertainty in soil characteristics is plus or minus 30 or 40 percent. And it makes less than 1 S-unit difference to the performance of radials and Eznec take off angles at HF. No doubt Roy will disagree as a matter of Boston Tea Party principles. And Richard, KB7QHC, will spin off at a tangent into Shakesperian verse. Hope this clarifies my Altzeimer's thoughts on the matter. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 214429 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 07:56:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> <7a3ve.5467$B_3.113@fe05.lga> "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:vptpb1dl52464l44vebachnu36do3jphbf@4ax.com... > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:42:31 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" > wrote: > > >Richard, KB7QHC, will spin off at a tangent into Shakesperian verse. > > Hi Reg, > > Let's draw a chord between 3 soil samples to see how fruitless knowing > "How to measure soil constants at HF" really is: > > You are in farm country where the annual rainfall is 835mm. Where the > mean temperature is 12.8°C. Where the soil is 20% sand, 65% silt, and > 15% clay. > > What is the Conductivity in the 80M band? > > You are in farm country where the annual rainfall is 360mm. Where the > mean temperature is 4.9°C. Where the soil is 65% sand, 20% silt, and > 15% clay. > > What is the Conductivity in the 80M band? > > You are in farm country where the annual rainfall is 790mm. Where the > mean temperature is 6.9°C. Where the soil is 31% sand, 33% silt, and > 36% clay. > > What is the Conductivity in the 80M band? > > OR > > We return to our regularly scheduled "More Les Dames d'Escoffier > Recipes with your host Punchinello." Today we discuss packing coaxial > tubes with meringue to measure propagation delay for custards. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC ==================================== I don't know. And neither do you or anybody else. If you DID know you would not have the foggiest idea what to do with the data anyway. I might! Havn't I recently said the uncertainty in ascertaining soil characteristics is in the order of 30 to 40 percent and not worth arguing or making yourself appear ridiculous about. There's missing data. You forgot the iron oxide content and soil permeability. ---- Punchinello. Article: 214430 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark Subject: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:19:42 +0200 Message-ID: Please could somebody tell me the best cable (compromise between cost and loss) for use with an external Yagi antenna connected to a mobile phone. I live in a Very poor reception area, and I need to fit an external antenna. I have found somewhere that sells 10 element Yagi's, and I can mount the thing as high as need be, but I read somewhere that the longer the connecting cable, can negate the benefits of long mounting poles. I have freinds in the surrounding area that have the same problem, so I could do with a "rule of thumb" that I can use for fitting these things. The shop where I got the antenna from is offering me RG58 cable for this purpose, which is cheap enough, but is it the best compromise for what I am trying to achieve? Your assistance would be most welcome. Mark Article: 214431 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 02:42:51 -0700 Message-ID: <11bq9oriipqncd8@corp.supernews.com> References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > . . . > The attenuation due to skin effect and wire inductance along lossy > radial wires is rather high. There's negligible current flowing in > them at distances greater than 1/4-wavelength at their own velocity. > The wires may just as well not be there. > . . . I'm afraid your oversimplified model of how radials work has once again led you astray. B, L, & E's measurements show the following: For an 88 degree high vertical, where n is the number of radials, the following fraction of the current at the center is flowing in the radial 1/4 wavelength (at a velocity factor of 0.2, the approximate VF in the radial's environment), from Fig. 42 of their paper: n Fraction 15 0.67 30 0.68 60 0.90 113 ~ 1.0 1/4 *free space* wavelength from the center: n Fraction 15 0.19 30 0.14 60 0.26 [This is a minimum; it rises then drops further out] 113 0.61 " " Note that the results are quite different when the radiator is only 22 degrees high (Fig. 43) -- the resonant effects apparent on the 60 and 113 radial measurements are absent, and the currents decay monotonically. There isn't nearly as much difference between 15 and 113 radials. But with 15 radials, the current 1/4 in-ground wavelength from the center is still about 67% of the current at the center. Again I see evidence that your analysis overlooks the interaction among radials. There's less interaction when there are only a few, but even with 15 your analysis has led you badly astray. And does it account for the considerable differences with different radiator heights? But I've pointed this out to you before yet you keep promoting this myth, so I guess you just don't want to be confused by the facts. > If B. L & E, made any errors, they made sure they erred on the safe > side regarding numbers. One of their key results is that ". . .the ground system consisting of only 15 radial wires need not be more than 0.1 [free space] wave length long, while the system consisting of 113 radials is still effective out to 0.5 [free space] wave length." Their results agree reasonably well with NEC-4 modeling. But I'm sure glad we've got you to set us straight about how well they did and how they could have improved their methods. You've surely got a clearer perspective, not having been prejudiced by actually reading their paper. Oops, here I am nitpicking again -- pointing out that .67 doesn't equal zero. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Certified Reg's Old Wife and Nit-Picker Article: 214432 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: re ian/Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:10:51 GMT thanks for responding Ian: No doubt your correct about alot, and clasically speaking i wouldn't argue, however 2 points firstly my comparsion to einstein wasn't regarding myself i was making a joke that my 'theories /ideas' are often thought of as crazy but who knows regarding your being so firm saying that rf is typically just conventional physics, I dunno.. who says it's confirmed to our space?? we are only just begining to see the possibilities that things in our deminsion/ or time "e space" do in fact have relationships with 'other ' things, some of which might be having effects out of phase, 'time' or having somthing corresponding in another dimension so to speak (for example) it's not unfathomable to think that the sum of our current knowledge might no be infinate, perhaps we've simply failed to measure ? who knows what tomorrows proved new theories will bring? already here waves(rf) conventional were compared to photonic 'energy'(now thats something few can understand alone) and those photos do some really strange things w/regards to the above (even more strange) conventionally speaking your correct of course, but i always keep an open mind towards possibilities, and crazy theories, since rf is still such a not understood umm blackhole or i am just crazy yeah i am just a nutty non scientific type throwing wackey ideas i have into that round black hole hoping that i'll find the right sized peg(my best asylm analogy rich) not cause i want to be known, but it's just fun for me to ponder these things i've already learned alot from you ian thanks again rich and cecil thanks too m In article <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk>, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > ml wrote: > > > >then i think quantum things but even if i expertly understood all > >these parts, would I have the answers?? > > > You don't need to "think quantum things" about this problem. > > The discovery of quantum physics was that energy levels aren't > continuous. A "system" (whatever it may be) can only have certain levels > of energy - in-between energy levels are not allowed. To change between > energy level, the system must emit or absorb quanta of energy. > > Quantum energy E is related to frequency (f, Hz) by E = h*f, where h is > Planck's constant = 6.6 x 10^-34 Joule seconds. > > At 10MHz, the quantum energy is 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 0066 > joules. This is so small that - for all practical purposes - ANY energy > level is possible, and quantum effects at radio frequencies are so small > they are irrelevant. > > So quantum physics has just *confirmed* that, at radio frequencies, > classical EM physics is all you need to know. > > > >hey people thought people like einstein were nutz too and he was smart > > > The question is: are there any Einsteins here? > > Antennas and transmission lines are home territory for classical EM > physics, right in the middle of our map of existing knowledge. There are > still lots of interesting new things to be discovered there; but we know > in advance that they MUST join up with the existing map, because it > surrounds us on every side. > > Anybody who imagines he's an Einstein, exploring the outer boundaries... > is just plain lost. Article: 214433 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Asimov" Subject: Attic antenna: rotator upside-down work? Message-ID: Date: Friday, 24 Jun 2005 16:58:38 -500 References: "Bob B." bravely wrote to "All" (24 Jun 05 11:01:20) --- on the heady topic of "Attic antenna: rotator upside-down work?" BB> From: Bob B. BB> Xref: aeinews rec.radio.amateur.antenna:33120 BB> Hello... BB> Will an antenna rotator like a Radio Shack or Channel Master work if BB> hung upside-down from a roof beam, or should I try to come up with a BB> way to secure it to the attic floor? BB> I know rotators are designed to handle a certain weight, but I can't BB> guess at what they'd do with a "negative" weight... BB> The antenna I'm looking to rotate is a Channel Master 8-bay bowtie. BB> (CM4228) BB> Thanks, BB> -Bob- BB> N1GYL I think it might work because rotators are rated for a large wind load and hanging upside down doesn't even seem to come close to that. However, I'd call the mfr first to ask for their recommendation before doing it. I doubt any gears in the rotator depend on gravity to stay in place. OTOH do you think fix mounting the rotator shaft and having the antenna hanging off the mast fixture instead might work? A*s*i*m*o*v ... Thank Thor Friday Nears! Article: 214434 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ed Price" References: <1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: 28mhz Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:13:18 -0700 "KI4CER" wrote in message news:1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... >I have never seen a bigger bunch of crap than the crap posted on this > sight.I didn't see one call sign on the entire message post.The stuff > listed (and all it was was stuff)meant nothing to no one.sounds like to > me a bunch of wan a be's.Well don't let me catch you talking on 28mhz's > if you don't have a valid F.C.C. certificate of issue.I live to smight > the wicked truckerness on 28mhz.I run the full legal limit and our GOD > HOLY RILEY HOLLINGSWORTH hath given me the power to smight thy > truckerness and thy lewdness,and there ain't a damn thing you can do > about it.So I will look foward to warming up my equipment and standing > guard waiting for one peep from an un licenced asshole.Get the > message???????KI4CER > Thus all the non-hams monitoring this ham antenna group have been suitably warned. -- Ed WB6WSN El Cajon, CA USA Article: 214435 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:02:04 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: re ian/Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk> Message-ID: <42bd64d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> ml wrote: > already here waves(rf) conventional were compared to photonic > 'energy' One conceptual mistake that a lot of people make concerns the roll of free electrons in a transmission line. It is the fields/photons that move at the speed of light, not the electrons. EM energy stored in excited free electrons is unstable and fleeting. The electron always gives up that extra energy very quickly in the form of photons which must necessarily travel at the speed of light and are incapable of some Old Wives' Tale "sloshing" response. Just because the electrons are capable of "sloshing" around doesn't mean that the EM energy can slosh around. The EM wave energy is not confined to the electrons, it exists ultimately in the fields/photons in the form of ExH wave energy/time moving at the speed of light. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214436 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: 28mhz Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:20:26 -0400 Message-ID: I am curious as to why you would post such nonsense. You are simply inviting a contestant in the who has the largest member contest. The typical response will be something like "You (profanity omitted) hams ain't got (P.O.) Iz runin 10KW with a (P.O.) 92 pill Dave made and a balum to co-fazed... " Ad nasuium... What's the point? "KI4CER" wrote in message news:1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > I have never seen a bigger bunch of crap than the crap posted on this > sight.I didn't see one call sign on the entire message post.The stuff > listed (and all it was was stuff)meant nothing to no one.sounds like to > me a bunch of wan a be's.Well don't let me catch you talking on 28mhz's > if you don't have a valid F.C.C. certificate of issue.I live to smight > the wicked truckerness on 28mhz.I run the full legal limit and our GOD > HOLY RILEY HOLLINGSWORTH hath given me the power to smight thy > truckerness and thy lewdness,and there ain't a damn thing you can do > about it.So I will look foward to warming up my equipment and standing > guard waiting for one peep from an un licenced asshole.Get the > message???????KI4CER > Article: 214437 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "RST Engineering" Subject: Re: 28mhz Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 08:23:04 -0700 Message-ID: <11bqtn2s9ioil61@corp.supernews.com> References: <1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Well, if you are waiting for a reply on this "sight" (sic) for some 28 millihertz discussion, you will be waiting a very long time. Jim "KI4CER" wrote in message news:1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... >I have never seen a bigger bunch of crap than the crap posted on this > sight. Article: 214438 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:30:08 -0500 Message-ID: <17269-42BD7880-249@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: Reg, G4FGQ wrote: "Your ancient charts, which I think I have once seen but don`t now have access to, apply only to LF. Permittivity was ignored when they were calculated." True, they are not for HF. My edition was reprinted by the Seabrooke Printing Company, Inc. and covers the range ftom 540 KHz to 1600 KHz. Dielectric constant (permittivity) is assumed to be 15 in all cases. The reason there are graphs for frequency segments such as 1560 kc to 1640 kc is that loss increases with frequency. Skin effect is an important faxtor. The higher the frequency, the less it penetrates the earth, so the crust carrying the r-f is thinner. The decline of field intensity versus distance from the transmitter is steeper at HF. My set of curves has a page which gives the formulas used to construct "surface wave field intensity versus numerical distance over plane earth". It has separate sets of formulas for vertical and horizontal polarizations. Curves in the book are for vertical polarization, the only thing of interest to a broadcaster. One option would be to construct your own set of curves. Another would be to find some curves which have already been constructed. I don`t know of any but expect that they exist. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214439 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Using the matchbox Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:01:21 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1119554991.240126.47990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119618054.991193.201730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42bc1ddf$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> > > Nothing has changed since Oliver Heaviside, 1875 - 1925. > > > > If anybody mentions G5RV I shall cry. > > ---- > > Reg, G4FGQ > > > > G5RV > 73, > Tom Donaly, KA6RUH =============================== Bwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Thanks Tom, I feel better now. --- Reg. Article: 214440 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:34:17 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> <11bq9oriipqncd8@corp.supernews.com> Roy, surely you realise that all depends on soil conductivity and permittivity which B, L & E forgot to determine before leaving the site. 30 years previously, around 1905, Sommerfeld (and others) had produced a significant report showing the importance of ground characteristics on radiation and propagation at LF and below. Which B, L, & E ought to have been aware of if they had known what they were about. You should concentrate your thoughts on HF and above, not on LF and VLF distractions. Different characteristics prevail at HF at which frequencies amateurs are most concerned. ---- Reg Article: 214441 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 12:18:23 -0700 Message-ID: <11brbg08ffamv2b@corp.supernews.com> References: <11bhb2khc92phf0@corp.supernews.com> <20290-42B8E899-1291@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> <11bq9oriipqncd8@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > Roy, surely you realise that all depends on soil conductivity and > permittivity which B, L & E forgot to determine before leaving the > site. It just isn't sinking in, is it? It depends on the conductivity and permittivity to a skin depth or more, which was impossible for them to determine. A surface measurement wouldn't have provided the necessary information. Measurement of ground wave attenuation to another location would have included ground with a variety of possible characteristics different from those in the immediate vicinity. > 30 years previously, around 1905, Sommerfeld (and others) had produced > a significant report showing the importance of ground characteristics > on radiation and propagation at LF and below. Which B, L, & E ought > to have been aware of if they had known what they were about. I'm sure they were. But the paper has nothing to do with propagation. What makes you think it does? They certainly did know about the effect of conductivity. In a theoretical analysis at the beginning of their paper they calculated expected radial ground currents for several different ground conductivities, and explain how current is distributed in the ground with conductivity being a factor. The radial ground current analysis was later found to be in error(*), but it's still considerably closer than the results I've seen from your analysis and program. > You should concentrate your thoughts on HF and above, not on LF and > VLF distractions. Different characteristics prevail at HF at which > frequencies amateurs are most concerned. That's a bizarre admonition from someone constantly harping about how many radials American AM broadcasters use. I am indeed most interested in HF, where skin depth is on the order of 12 feet for average soil, and measurement of surface conductivity and permittivity is pretty useless. Incidentally, since you haven't read their paper, you probably don't know that the BL & E measurements were done at 3 MHz, which is HF. (*) To my knowledge, no one has developed a method of calculating radial currents or ground system losses with even approximate accuracy other than with numerical analysis such as used by NEC-4. Many years ago I spent a couple of years of spare time in a technical library looking for just such an analysis without success. Reg's method is delightfully simple but gives results which are very wrong. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214442 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:21:19 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: re ian/Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk> <42bd64d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bdafa9$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:02:04 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > >>One conceptual mistake that a lot of people make concerns >>the roll of free electrons in a transmission line. > > Concepts indeed. Rolling free electrons. > How did Planck miss this one? I can visualize marbles cascading down > a quantum stairwell though. ;-) Once again, the Netscape spellchecker fails to catch the typo. I have an inherited palsy as did my father and as does my sister. My sister has had electrodes implanted in her brain to try to control it but she, like I, still has a lot of trouble typing. It takes me five times as long to compose an acceptable posting as the average person because of all the double and triple entries. I sincerely appologize that my physical handicap has exposed your psychological tendency to make fun of the misfortunes of others. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214443 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:22:38 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Using the matchbox References: <1119554991.240126.47990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119618054.991193.201730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42bc1ddf$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bdaff8$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: >>>If anybody mentions G5RV I shall cry. >>G5RV > Bwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa > Thanks Tom, I feel better now. Reg, you know you mentioned G5RV first. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214444 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: 28mhz Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:09:23 -0700 Yes, that is a really good rant... I can almost imagine the truckers upgrading linears now... I hope that was your true intent--it is hard to imagine anyone would think it would inspire different... John "KI4CER" wrote in message news:1119677469.165116.283260@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... >I have never seen a bigger bunch of crap than the crap posted on this > sight.I didn't see one call sign on the entire message post.The stuff > listed (and all it was was stuff)meant nothing to no one.sounds like > to > me a bunch of wan a be's.Well don't let me catch you talking on > 28mhz's > if you don't have a valid F.C.C. certificate of issue.I live to smight > the wicked truckerness on 28mhz.I run the full legal limit and our GOD > HOLY RILEY HOLLINGSWORTH hath given me the power to smight thy > truckerness and thy lewdness,and there ain't a damn thing you can do > about it.So I will look foward to warming up my equipment and standing > guard waiting for one peep from an un licenced asshole.Get the > message???????KI4CER > Article: 214445 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:35:53 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: re ian/Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk> <42bd64d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42bdafa9$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bdc121$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:21:19 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > >>I sincerely appologize that my physical handicap has exposed your >>psychological tendency to make fun of the misfortunes of others. > > No, yours is not an appology - as you well know. Your hand at irony > is firmly intact as all may notice in this cheap play with the > sympathy card. Care to see a picture of my sister's shaved head after surgery? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214446 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard W. Solomon, W1KSZ" Subject: Re: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:20:35 GMT RG-58 ?? You might as well bury the antenna in the ground !! That is the worst stuff you can use. First, How long a run do you need ? Second, What is the connector required on each end ? 73, Dick, W1KSZ On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 11:19:42 +0200, Mark wrote: >Please could somebody tell me the best cable (compromise between cost >and loss) for use with an external Yagi antenna connected to a mobile >phone. I live in a Very poor reception area, and I need to fit an >external antenna. I have found somewhere that sells 10 element Yagi's, >and I can mount the thing as high as need be, but I read somewhere >that the longer the connecting cable, can negate the benefits of long >mounting poles. I have freinds in the surrounding area that have the >same problem, so I could do with a "rule of thumb" that I can use for >fitting these things. The shop where I got the antenna from is >offering me RG58 cable for this purpose, which is cheap enough, but is >it the best compromise for what I am trying to achieve? Your >assistance would be most welcome. >Mark Article: 214447 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: Subject: Re: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:40:50 -0400 This may well be an application for a passive repeater. 2 yagis back to back one aimed at the nearest tower the other aimed at your house. mount it high "Mark" wrote in message news:et7qb1la2lr29hpnu0741kv79ii9ecj2c8@4ax.com... > Please could somebody tell me the best cable (compromise between cost > and loss) for use with an external Yagi antenna connected to a mobile > phone. I live in a Very poor reception area, and I need to fit an > external antenna. I have found somewhere that sells 10 element Yagi's, > and I can mount the thing as high as need be, but I read somewhere > that the longer the connecting cable, can negate the benefits of long > mounting poles. I have freinds in the surrounding area that have the > same problem, so I could do with a "rule of thumb" that I can use for > fitting these things. The shop where I got the antenna from is > offering me RG58 cable for this purpose, which is cheap enough, but is > it the best compromise for what I am trying to achieve? Your > assistance would be most welcome. > Mark Article: 214448 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: How to measure soil constants at HF Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:46:39 -0500 Message-ID: <20797-42BDD0BF-27@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> References: <17269-42BD7880-249@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> I wrote: "Another (option) would be to find some curves which have already been constructed." Found some curves in Pete Saveskie`s "Radio Propagation Handbook" on pages 15, 17, and 19. They are from CCIR and may be available from them. They are for field strengths over sea water, good earth, and poor earth at 16 frequencies from 100 KHz to 10 MHZ. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214449 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: offset diople antenna References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> <11bpan6pobgvq5c@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:07:48 GMT Roy Lewallen wrote: > Chuck Olson wrote: > >> >> Hi, Larry, >> >> An off-center fed antenna doesn't necessarily produce unbalanced feeder >> currents - - > > > I'm sorry to say, it does. There's coupling from the feedline to each > side of the antenna, and unlike a symmetrical dipole with feedline at > right angles, the coupling from each side is unequal. This results in > unbalanced feeder currents. If the feedline is twinlead or open wire > line, this shows up as unequal currents on the two conductors. On coax > it manifests itself as current on the outside of the shield. In both > cases, the result is the same -- feedline radiation. > > This can be shown quite dramatically by simple modeling. I've also seen > it myself by direct measurement(*). A current balun (NOT voltage balun) > at the feedpoint will reduce the conducted common mode current just as > it will with a dipole, but you still have to deal with common mode > current due to coupling. Depending on the frequency and the feedline > length and orientation, you might get lucky and not have too much > feedline current. On the other hand, it can be bad enough to aggravate > RFI problems if the feedline is routed near power or telephone lines, or > cause trouble with your rig or shack accessories. > > > just a different feeding impedance level, which he will no > >> doubt take care of with a tuner or a 4:1 ratio in the balun if single >> band >> use is all he wants and he can find the right spot for the feeder. Of >> course >> the balun takes care of any unbalance that might be due to the feeder >> not making a 90 degree angle with the antenna. There's nothing wrong >> with his idea. > > > See above comments. Routing the feeder at right angles to the antenna > doesn't eliminate current due to mutual coupling, and neither does a > feedpoint balun. > Roy, doesn't this suggest that there is benefit in twisting an open wire feedline to attempt to expose each conductor to similar coupling to the external fields. Clearly the benefit will be better for a higher twist rate. Whilst achieving sufficient twist rate with a wide air-spaced line may be impractical, it is probably quite realisable with ladder line (notwithstanding the downsides of ladder line). I suspect there is not much one could do to minimise the effects of current on a coax shield other than placement of ferrite suppression sleeves or loops in the coax at several places on the feedline to spoil resonances in much the same way as one would try to prevent parasitic excitation of a guy wire by breaking into non-resonant lengths with insulators. Owen Article: 214450 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Using the matchbox Message-ID: <2rlrb1ljquvan08cmimqi6p33g87a7fuec@4ax.com> References: <1119554991.240126.47990@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 22:15:32 GMT On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 23:40:45 -0400, Buck wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:06:33 -0700, Wes Stewart >wrote: > >>On 23 Jun 2005 12:29:51 -0700, "Brian Kelly" wrote: > >>>Inductors are lossy. Capacitors are not. Use the tuner settings which >>>provide a 2:1 VSWR match or better with the least possible amount of >>>inductance. In other words use the least amount of inductance you can >>>get away with. >> > >>First all should note that this is a pi-network. Suggestions to use >>an MFJ (tee-network) tuning procedure are wrong. >> >>Here is a random example made up on the spur of the moment. >> >>Assume the load is 20 +j50 @ 14 MHz. SWR = 5.2 >> >>Also assume that the tuning capacitor(s) Q = 500 and the inductor Q = >>200, both typical values. >> >>A nearly optimum solution, from a match and loss standpoint is: >> >>Cin = 140.3 pF, L = .958 uH, Cout = 333.6 pF. >> >>The input z = 49.69 +j0.03 or SWR = 1.006 , Loss = 0.09 dB. >> >>Now, let's force the inductance to a lower value. >> >>Cin = 422 pF, L = 0.67 uH, Cout = 471.3 pF. >> >>The input Z = 49.6 -j0.04 or SWR = 1.008 but the loss = 0.18 dB. >> >>The loss doubled when the inductance was lowered. >> >>All of this is easily calculated using a free tool: XLZIZL.xls. >> > >Does anyone know what kind of network is in the TenTec 247? > >I have one and noticed it will tune most bands with three different >inductance settings. There might be some info at the vintage ten-tec site, http://www.qsl.net/tentec/ bob k5qwg Article: 214451 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: offset diople antenna Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:47:30 -0700 Message-ID: <11brno2m7vmjg99@corp.supernews.com> References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> <11bpan6pobgvq5c@corp.supernews.com> Owen wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote: >>. . . >> See above comments. Routing the feeder at right angles to the antenna >> doesn't eliminate current due to mutual coupling, and neither does a >> feedpoint balun. >> > > Roy, doesn't this suggest that there is benefit in twisting an open wire > feedline to attempt to expose each conductor to similar coupling to the > external fields. Clearly the benefit will be better for a higher twist > rate. Whilst achieving sufficient twist rate with a wide air-spaced line > may be impractical, it is probably quite realisable with ladder line > (notwithstanding the downsides of ladder line). No. The problem isn't that the coupling is different to each conductor of the transmission line, it's that the coupling is different from the transmission line to each side of the antenna. Twisting the line won't change the coupling of this common mode current by any appreciable amount. Unfortunately. > I suspect there is not much one could do to minimise the effects of > current on a coax shield other than placement of ferrite suppression > sleeves or loops in the coax at several places on the feedline to spoil > resonances in much the same way as one would try to prevent parasitic > excitation of a guy wire by breaking into non-resonant lengths with > insulators. The problem is exactly the same for coax and for two-wire line, and the solution is the same for both -- common mode chokes (current baluns) spaced about a quarter wavelength apart to break up resonances. In practice, implementation is usually easier with coax. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214452 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" Subject: I was requested to post the following... Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 14:28:20 -0700 The email requesting me to make this post follows: The following post was not posted by me. the person who claims to be me is a very childish individual that has never left their mothers apron. Please post this in the USENET groups, as I am not a member. If any of you know how to trace this post back to the source please email me at kf4vgx@hotmail.com 73 John > I'm just a lonely ham. Nobody wants to play radio > with me. Please e-mail me. I'm tired of emailing > myself, it's no fun anymore. > > Johnny Williams > kf4vgx@sc.rr.com > Article: 214453 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" Subject: Post anonymously Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:37:26 -0700 I am sure that everyone here has noticed there is much too much attention paid to where posts originate from. And, there are childish personalities which look up where you are posting from--some with malicious intent... This URL will provide you with a means to be anonymous: http://www.antifirewall.com/news.htm This should allow everyone to put a stop to this bad behavior. John Article: 214454 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <1119747738.926814.292740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Post anonymously Message-ID: <_enve.47$dt1.11443224@news.sisna.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:09:15 -0700 bb: Well, antifirewall has a trial period... But, it should help you become familiar with the method to be able to set this up using other methods which are free... John "bb" wrote in message news:1119747738.926814.292740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > John Smith wrote: >> I am sure that everyone here has noticed there is much too much >> attention paid to where posts originate from. And, there are >> childish >> personalities which look up where you are posting from--some with >> malicious intent... >> >> This URL will provide you with a means to be anonymous: >> http://www.antifirewall.com/news.htm >> >> This should allow everyone to put a stop to this bad behavior. >> >> John > > Yeh, I really don't like Robeson posting snippets of my address or > talking about my family. > Article: 214455 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:53:00 -0500 Message-ID: <8199-42BE188C-328@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> References: <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Look at the title of this thread. Why slosh? Transmission lines are used to convey energy, and at high frequencies they serve as resonant circuits, measuring devices, and impedance matching sections. Viltage and current at any point on a transmission line is expressed as the sum of the voltages and currents of two waves, one traveking forward toward the load (the incident wave) and one reflected from the load (the reflected or reverse wave). The reflected wave consists of energy from the wave traveling toward the load which is rejected by the load becausse the voltage to current ratio does not fit the only voltage to current ratio the load can accept, its impedance, perhaps a complex value. All energy in the wave traveling toward the load and all energy traveling away from the load (the opposite travel direction) must conform to the absolute value of the line`s characteristic impedance (Zo). Phase of the reflected current traveling back toward the generator is given a negative sign because the reflected wave is traveling in the reverse direction from the forward wave which travels toward the load. (See page 86 in the 1955 edition of Terman. Phase of the reflected current traveling toward the generator is everywhere proportional but out of phase with reflected voltage. The reflected voltage to current ratio is: -Zo. Actual voltage across the load is the sum of the incident and reflected voltages. Actual current through the load is the sum of the incident and reflected currents. The vector ratio of load voltage to load current must equal the load impedance which may be a complex value. The vector ratio of incident voltage to treflected voltage at the load is called the reflection coefficient of the load. It may be obtained >from forward and reverse powers at the load. I have a special slide rule given me by the Bird wattmeter people to convert wattmeter forward and reverse indications into a reflection coefficient or an SWR. The transmission line and its load completely control the volts and amps everywhere in the system driven by a certain generator. There are no renegade volts and amps sloshing around. The idea is preposterous. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214456 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 00:04:05 -0500 Message-ID: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. M2 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at 90-95 ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should "just do it" 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located in Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on 144.240 MHz USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time Total Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from it's first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net Article: 214457 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <313030303837383542BEA00A47@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:31:06 +0100 From: Dave Piggin Subject: Solarcon A99 Hi All, Anyone got a link to a schematic for the A99. I'm blowed if I can find how the wire terminates into the top collar. What I did find was a solder blob on the collar, thinking Aha thats where the wire termminates, but NO. Any idea's appreciated. TIA Dave. -- Amateur Radio Call Sign M1BTI, Located in Manchester England. Locator square IO83TK Chairman Of Trafford Radio Club. Club Call Signs G0TRG & M1BBP Located at Umist, University Of Manchester Institute For Science And Technology Share What You Know, Learn What You Dont. Article: 214458 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Joe S." Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:47:14 -0500 Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> "Charlie" wrote in message news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... > 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. M2 > 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. > The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at 90-95 > ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should "just > do it" > > 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html > > I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located in > Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on 144.240 MHz > USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time Total > Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from it's > first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > > > > > > Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a permanent arrangement? -- ----- Joe S. Article: 214459 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:26:45 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8199-42BE188C-328@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42be9ffe$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > There are no > renegade volts and amps sloshing around. The idea is preposterous. Thanks for all your statements of the laws of physics embodied in the wave reflection model. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214460 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walt Davidson Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:29:45 +0100 Message-ID: <187tb1leujpn0c0ossfg1u9v9c46c21jgp@4ax.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:47:14 -0500, "Joe S." wrote: >Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a permanent >arrangement? Boy, I bet that 21 ft "stub mast" will whip around some when the wind gets up! Only the rotator is supporting it. -- Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com Article: 214461 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:48:55 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: re ian/Re: rich and Cecil momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42b337fc$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <18548-42B486DF-562@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1119188334.322677.10230@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <0fwn6EIGQRvCFAsv@ifwtech.co.uk> <42bd64d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42bdafa9$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bea52f$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > No, yours is not an appology - as you well know. Your hand at irony > is firmly intact as all may notice in this cheap play with the > sympathy card. The devil made me do it, Richard. I just couldn't resist a cheap shot at the resident cheap shot artist. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214462 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:57:12 GMT On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 06:47:14 -0500, "Joe S." wrote: > > >"Charlie" wrote in message >news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... >> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. M2 >> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. >> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at 90-95 >> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should "just >> do it" >> >> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html >> >> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located in >> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on 144.240 >MHz >> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time >Total >> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from it's >> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. >> >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> >> >> >> >> > >Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a permanent >arrangement? Also, do the steel bands allow for the expansion of the tree trunk? Them things do grow... bob k5qwg Article: 214463 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Choke baluns again Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:37:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at the antenna end of the line. Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? ---- Reg. Article: 214464 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W9DMK (Robert Lay) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:53:35 GMT Message-ID: <42beb22b.4515032@news.crosslink.net> References: <42bb6e3c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8199-42BE188C-328@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:53:00 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) wrote: >The reflected wave consists of energy from the wave traveling toward the >load which is rejected by the load becausse the voltage to current ratio >does not fit the only voltage to current ratio the load can accept, its >impedance, perhaps a complex value. Dear Richard, Aside from some easily correctable typos, your posting is very readable and cogent. The above paragraph, however, has a rather difficult to understand ending, and I'm hoping you will review it and provide more readable wording. Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html Article: 214465 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 08:40:29 -0700 ... I should have pointed out, always, the balun has been inserted at the antenna, and never at the transmitter end of the coax in my previous post... John "John Smith" wrote in message news:ACzve.9$Dl.332926@news.sisna.com... > Reg: > > I can comment on my recent experiments with a half-wave vertical on > 10-11 meters. > > A current balun (or ferrite beads on the coax) greatly reduce feedline > radiation--seems to have an overall beneficial effects on the antennas > radiation pattern--and seems to "stabilize" the pruning/tuning of the > antenna (things begin behaving in a linear and logical way.) > > Mind you, the above is only deduced/measured with a FSM, SWR bridge > (of the type which does NOT work for real measurement of swr but > rather transmitter loading) and observed/known signals from other > stations and the reports given back on my signal from these stations. > > While this may be viewed as "crude" by some--it is real world in that > the effects as least "seem" real. > > Or, the short form of all this is, "The Current Balun is my friend!" > > John > > "Reg Edwards" wrote in message > news:d9mb3a$de3$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >>A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the >> antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at >> the antenna end of the line. >> >> Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage >> unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has >> anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? >> ---- >> Reg. >> >> > Article: 214466 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 08:13:34 -0700 Reg: I can comment on my recent experiments with a half-wave vertical on 10-11 meters. A current balun (or ferrite beads on the coax) greatly reduce feedline radiation--seems to have an overall beneficial effects on the antennas radiation pattern--and seems to "stabilize" the pruning/tuning of the antenna (things begin behaving in a linear and logical way.) Mind you, the above is only deduced/measured with a FSM, SWR bridge (of the type which does NOT work for real measurement of swr but rather transmitter loading) and observed/known signals from other stations and the reports given back on my signal from these stations. While this may be viewed as "crude" by some--it is real world in that the effects as least "seem" real. Or, the short form of all this is, "The Current Balun is my friend!" John "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:d9mb3a$de3$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the > antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at > the antenna end of the line. > > Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage > unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has > anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 214467 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:04:24 -0700 ... yes, I am known to reply to my own posts--far too often... >From all the current baluns I have tried, and I have tried every type I could find, this choke/balun design is my favorite and seems to have the lowest insertion loss of all and seems to exhibit excellent qualities of the type desired: http://home.datacomm.ch/hb9abx/pactor-e-choke.htm John "John Smith" wrote in message news:U%zve.10$R41.415864@news.sisna.com... > ... I should have pointed out, always, the balun has been inserted at > the antenna, and never at the transmitter end of the coax in my > previous post... > > John > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:ACzve.9$Dl.332926@news.sisna.com... >> Reg: >> >> I can comment on my recent experiments with a half-wave vertical on >> 10-11 meters. >> >> A current balun (or ferrite beads on the coax) greatly reduce >> feedline radiation--seems to have an overall beneficial effects on >> the antennas radiation pattern--and seems to "stabilize" the >> pruning/tuning of the antenna (things begin behaving in a linear and >> logical way.) >> >> Mind you, the above is only deduced/measured with a FSM, SWR bridge >> (of the type which does NOT work for real measurement of swr but >> rather transmitter loading) and observed/known signals from other >> stations and the reports given back on my signal from these stations. >> >> While this may be viewed as "crude" by some--it is real world in that >> the effects as least "seem" real. >> >> Or, the short form of all this is, "The Current Balun is my friend!" >> >> John >> >> "Reg Edwards" wrote in message >> news:d9mb3a$de3$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >>>A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the >>> antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at >>> the antenna end of the line. >>> >>> Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage >>> unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has >>> anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? >>> ---- >>> Reg. >>> >>> >> > Article: 214468 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 09:49:33 -0700 A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm ... for those who have not yet seen it. John "Chris Trask" wrote in message news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following remarks > were > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current baluns: > > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > > and: > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > to finish of each transmission line. " > > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 baluns on > a > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The design > can > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure of this > design with all theory, references, and test results can be obtained > from my > web page at: > > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf > > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above > statements to > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. > > Chris > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > _ |/ Principal Engineer > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > \ \ / \ > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > . ( ) \ > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > > > > > Article: 214469 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:30 -0400 The only thing I have against them (current baluns) is They are heavy. and cause the antenna to droop lowering the height of the feedpoint. Which is a good reason to put the balun near the radio and use balanced feedline from there to the antenna my 3.5 cents "John Smith" wrote in message news:SmAve.12$p6.310300@news.sisna.com... > ... yes, I am known to reply to my own posts--far too often... > > From all the current baluns I have tried, and I have tried every type I > could find, this choke/balun design is my favorite and seems to have the > lowest insertion loss of all and seems to exhibit excellent qualities of > the type desired: > http://home.datacomm.ch/hb9abx/pactor-e-choke.htm > > John > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:U%zve.10$R41.415864@news.sisna.com... > > ... I should have pointed out, always, the balun has been inserted at > > the antenna, and never at the transmitter end of the coax in my > > previous post... > > > > John > > > > "John Smith" wrote in message > > news:ACzve.9$Dl.332926@news.sisna.com... > >> Reg: > >> > >> I can comment on my recent experiments with a half-wave vertical on > >> 10-11 meters. > >> > >> A current balun (or ferrite beads on the coax) greatly reduce > >> feedline radiation--seems to have an overall beneficial effects on > >> the antennas radiation pattern--and seems to "stabilize" the > >> pruning/tuning of the antenna (things begin behaving in a linear and > >> logical way.) > >> > >> Mind you, the above is only deduced/measured with a FSM, SWR bridge > >> (of the type which does NOT work for real measurement of swr but > >> rather transmitter loading) and observed/known signals from other > >> stations and the reports given back on my signal from these stations. > >> > >> While this may be viewed as "crude" by some--it is real world in that > >> the effects as least "seem" real. > >> > >> Or, the short form of all this is, "The Current Balun is my friend!" > >> > >> John > >> > >> "Reg Edwards" wrote in message > >> news:d9mb3a$de3$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > >>>A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the > >>> antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at > >>> the antenna end of the line. > >>> > >>> Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage > >>> unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has > >>> anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? > >>> ---- > >>> Reg. > >>> > >>> > >> > > > Article: 214470 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:28:23 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Choke baluns again References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42bf02d0$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Dan Richardson arrl wrote: > Yea, four ounces should cause one hell of a droop. Droop is like dB loss - it should be minimized at all costs. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214471 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> Thank you all very much for your kindness and courtesy in responding to my post. Typically those that berate others have significant problems with self esteem. Oh..as for those "sins"...mine are already forgiven. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Joe S." wrote in message news:d9m4jr02tvu@news4.newsguy.com... > > > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... >> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. M2 >> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. >> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at >> 90-95 >> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should >> "just >> do it" >> >> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html >> >> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located >> in >> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on 144.240 > MHz >> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time > Total >> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from >> it's >> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. >> >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a > permanent > arrangement? > > -- > > ----- > Joe S. > > Article: 214472 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 12:04:15 -0700 Dan: "Droop?" Hmm, I have heard about that, brits may refer to it as "brewers droop?" Or, maybe I am confused here... However, problem only seems to occur when there are pints involved... John "Dan Richardson arrl net>" wrote in message news:1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com... > On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:30 -0400, "Hal Rosser" > wrote: > >>The only thing I have against them (current baluns) is >>They are heavy. >>and cause the antenna to droop >>lowering the height of the feedpoint. >>Which is a good reason to put the balun near the radio and use >>balanced >>feedline from there to the antenna >>my 3.5 cents > > > I just weighed 50 beads that are used in W2DU's balun and came up with > a whopping 4 ounces! > > Yea, four ounces should cause one hell of a droop. > > 73, > Danny, K6MHE > > > Article: 214473 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <1119747738.926814.292740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119815925.888732.307890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Post anonymously Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:04:34 -0700 An even better way to setup anonymity is with mail2news and a remailer, it takes a bit more knowledge and work but is worth it in the long run. A google should supply one with all necessary details and tools. John "bb" wrote in message news:1119815925.888732.307890@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > Holly wrote: >> "bb" wrote in message >> news:1119747738.926814.292740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> >> >> John Smith wrote: >> > I am sure that everyone here has noticed there is much too much >> > attention paid to where posts originate from. And, there are >> > childish >> > personalities which look up where you are posting from--some with >> > malicious intent... >> > >> > This URL will provide you with a means to be anonymous: >> > http://www.antifirewall.com/news.htm >> > >> > This should allow everyone to put a stop to this bad behavior. >> > >> > John >> >> Yeh, I really don't like Robeson posting snippets of my address or >> talking about my family. >> >> >> // >> >> Of course it never dawned on you to simply ignore him, did it? >> Besides, we all know you live on Longview Street. > > Thanks Jim. Quitefine advice. > Article: 214474 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:51:01 -0500 Message-ID: <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature have her way. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Dave" wrote in message news:6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com... > they may be forgiven, but that won't keep a tower in the air nor make it > safer to climb. those sins are things you should seriously look at > correcting as they all affect the strength and safety of your investment > as well as anyone working on it or playing near it. > > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com... >> Thank you all very much for your kindness and courtesy in responding to >> my post. >> Typically those that berate others have significant problems with self >> esteem. >> >> Oh..as for those "sins"...mine are already forgiven. >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> >> >> >> >> "Joe S." wrote in message >> news:d9m4jr02tvu@news4.newsguy.com... >>> >>> >>> "Charlie" wrote in message >>> news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... >>>> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. >>>> M2 >>>> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. >>>> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at >>>> 90-95 >>>> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should >>>> "just >>>> do it" >>>> >>>> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html >>>> >>>> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located >>>> in >>>> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on >>>> 144.240 >>> MHz >>>> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time >>> Total >>>> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from >>>> it's >>>> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Charlie >>>> Ham Radio - AD5TH >>>> www.ad5th.com >>>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >>>> www.deepsouthnet.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a >>> permanent >>> arrangement? >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ----- >>> Joe S. >>> >>> >> >> > > Article: 214475 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 17:11:43 -0400 Add that 4 ounces to the weight of 50 feet of coax. then subtract the weight of 50 feet of balanced line that is a larger difference "Dan Richardson arrl net>" wrote in message news:1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com... > On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:30 -0400, "Hal Rosser" > wrote: > > >The only thing I have against them (current baluns) is > >They are heavy. > >and cause the antenna to droop > >lowering the height of the feedpoint. > >Which is a good reason to put the balun near the radio and use balanced > >feedline from there to the antenna > >my 3.5 cents > > > I just weighed 50 beads that are used in W2DU's balun and came up with > a whopping 4 ounces! > > Yea, four ounces should cause one hell of a droop. > > 73, > Danny, K6MHE > > > Article: 214476 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:24:27 GMT On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:51:01 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... Noticed you have metal straps around the tree trunks. The QST article of Sept '89 on using trees as antenna supports says, "Another no-no when attaching an antenna to a tree is wrapping a wire around the trunk. This strangles the veins in the sapwood the same way a noose around your neck would strangle you." bob k5qwg > >Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature have her >way. Article: 214477 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 16:34:21 -0500 Message-ID: <8199-42BF1F5D-394@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> References: <42beb22b.4515032@news.crosslink.net> Bob, W9DMK wrote: "The above paragraph was, however, a rather difficult diiffocult to understand ending---." Fair enough. Ohm`s law prevails at a-c as it does at d-c. That is, I = E / Z, just as I = E / R. If Z is a load impedance, it dictates the current it accepts. An impedance in series with the load affects the voltage applied to the load, but whatever voltage to the load is, the current through the load is related to the voltage adross the load by Ohm`s law. When a transmission line feeds a load, Ohm`s law prevails at the load Feed a certain current through and it produces a certain voltage drop. Feed a certain voltage and it allows a certain current. This is repetitious, but it`s true. The line only functions at Zo. The load only functions at its load impedance. The adjustment between these two intransigents are the forward and reverse voltages and currents whose sums make up the actual voltage and current at the load. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214478 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: References: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:53:04 GMT On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 13:37:46 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: >Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage >unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has >anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? Reg, I haven't measured it, however... I am in the process of modeling a balun as follow up on my G5RV feed systems analysis. The scenario is a G5RV at 10m centre height, a vertical drop of open wire line (the so called "matching section") and a balun at near ground height (with unbalanced shunt admittance introduced by the balun to ground). I have been jiggling the unbalanced shunt admittance introduced by the balun and observing the current through that admittance wrt the feedline currents, and the apparent distortion of the radiation pattern. I could nearly as easily have been comparing the current in one of the wires of the feedline wrt the other, it is just the format of the currents report that makes the former easier. Another interesting observation would be the changes to receive sensitivity to vertically polarised waves (indicating possible feedline pickup). The models indicate a few things so far: - the effect of the balun is on the unbalance current distribution on the whole feedline; - current imbalance at the base of the "matching section" of better than about -15dB caused little distortion of the pattern on 20m and below; - some configurations seem quite undesirable in terms of pattern distortion even though balun current is quite low; - raising the antenna / feedline / balun and lengthening the earth connection from the balun shunt admittance changes the current distribution. This leads me to think that measurement of the imbalance current at a single point might not give the "big picture". I found scenarios where inserting an imperfect balun increased the current at a point (it changed the magnitude of the standing wave and more importantly moved the current minimum), so I could see someone with a handy-dandy current probe measuring such a situation and insisting they have proof the baluns don't "work". Owen -- Article: 214479 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: <8SEve.44$eF7.1532042@news.sisna.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:11:27 -0700 Reg: As usual, your posts inspire thought--and that is a GOOD thing. At least with this type of balun: http://home.datacomm.ch/hb9abx/pactor-e-choke.htm I ask, "Why not?" The insertion loss is negligible. The downside of its' use is virtually none. The upside is that in the future, as objects may come into the field close enough to couple with the antenna, or corrosion-weather-"stretch"-age-"or other factors begin to cause slight imbalances-- the balun steps in and begins enforcing a "balance." It just seems one would error on the side of caution and use such a balun. I know of few better examples of a "win-win situation." Indeed, the article Roy offered seems like one heck of an argument to this end... ... certainly someone not prepared to weigh the "fly chit" they have picked out of the pepper should just chuck one in the line and rest assured "it is a good thing." Warmest regards, John "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:d9mb3a$de3$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >A choke balun is what is inserted between the transmitter end of the > antenna feedline and the transmitte tuner. Or it can be inserted at > the antenna end of the line. > > Questions : How effective is it? To what extent can the percentage > unbalance current on the feedline be expected to be reduced? Has > anybody ever measured it before and after insertion? > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 214480 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "FDR" <_remove_spam_block_rzitka@hotmail.com> References: <90lrb1p949i59dv4la1bdm5lnid1tk74tq@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Pizza, New Great-Circle Plotting Program Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:07:37 GMT "K7JEB" wrote in message news:90lrb1p949i59dv4la1bdm5lnid1tk74tq@4ax.com... > > > A friend of mine, Jim Tonne, WB6BLD, has written a > much-improved, Windows version of a classic great-circle > plotting program and is providing it to the Amateur Radio > community FOR FREE. > > If you are a DX'er and need an antenna-bearing aid or just > like to poke around on the earth's geography, this program > will be of interest to you. > > It calculates the bearing and distance from a Home location > to a Target location anywhere in the world and displays this > result on both azimuthal (polar) and rectangular maps. Both > the Home and Target locations may be selected by mouse > designations on the rectangular world map or chosen from a > menu of cities, countries and callsign areas. So this tells you how to get from Home Depot to a Target store? Cool. Article: 214481 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:31:17 -0500 Message-ID: <17269-42BF48D5-494@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: <42beb22b.4515032@news.crosslink.net> Bob, W9MDK wrote: "The above paragraph, however, was a rather difficult to ubderstand reading,---." I responded that the load would not accept volts and amps in a ratio which does not fit its load impedance. Perhaps we should reason together some more. The transmission line delivers power to the load at its Zo. When the load impedance is different, there is a surplus of either volts or amps. The surplus nust be reflected because the load can`t take it. That`s all. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214482 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W9DMK (Robert Lay) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:01:25 GMT Message-ID: <42bf4f92.44810524@news.crosslink.net> References: <42beb22b.4515032@news.crosslink.net> <17269-42BF48D5-494@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 19:31:17 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) wrote: >Bob, W9MDK wrote: >"The above paragraph, however, was a rather difficult to ubderstand >reading,---." > >I responded that the load would not accept volts and amps in a ratio >which does not fit its load impedance. Perhaps we should reason together >some more. The transmission line delivers power to the load at its Zo. >When the load impedance is different, there is a surplus of either volts >or amps. The surplus nust be reflected because the load can`t take it. >That`s all. > >Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI > Dear Richard, Actually, your previous response was much more than I really expected. I just wanted to see different wording on the original paragraph. You've done a good job, and I hope everyone took good notes - Hi! Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html Article: 214483 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Joe S." Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:47:55 -0500 Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> "Charlie" wrote in message news:11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com... > Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... > > Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature have her > way. > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > No, any tower cannot blow down no matter what. A properly installed tower, installed to manufacturer's specs, will withstand at least the wind load specified by the manufacturer. In my initial reply in which I pointed out that the tower was guyed to one or more trees, I was trying to be nice. Now that others have chimed in, no more nice guy. That piece of shit will come down on your house, possibly on neighbors' houses, and possibly on a power line. And when it does, this is a little bit of what will happen: -- your homeowner's insurance company will send out a tower engineer to check the wreckage and will refuse to pay one penny. -- your neighbors will sue for damages, their insurance companies will send out real tower engineers to inspect, and your homeowner's liability insurance will not pay a penny. -- the power company will send out their engineers and will charge you to repair the damage to their lines and equipment. -- you'll be damn lucky if no one is killed or injured when it comes down. And if anyone is, you could be looking at jail time, depending on whether or not your local prosecuting attorney wants to be a badass. Here is a short list of problems with your tower: -- not installed any way close to manufacturer's specs -- mixed parts of different towers; what the hell is a "Sears" tower? Intended for TV antenna use? There is a BIG difference between real towers (Rohn) and make-believe towers. -- base is a joke; a guyed 50-foot 25G requires 1.5 cubic yards of concrete. You are supporting 75 feet with less than a yard. -- base is an even bigger joke when you consider that you used a homemade, non-galvanized base plate welded to some odd pieces of pipe buried a couple of feet in the ground. Welds are not cleaned and galvanized -- they will rust and break. Did you ever stop to think why tower parts are hot-dipped galvanized? -- guyed to trees. Problem is not that the trees will come down, problem is that in a big blow, the trees will sway one way, pulling the guy wires with them, while the tower is swaying in the other direction, thereby popping the guy wires. -- guyed to power pole. Did you clear this with the local power company first? When they discover what you have done to their pole, you'll need a lawyer and a big bank account. -- too close to house -- when that thing comes down, it'll take out a big piece of house. -- no thrust bearing so all the whipping around the mast will do will be absorbed by the rotator. But that's okay, when the tower comes down you can replace the rotator by standing on the ground. -- did you use high-tensile steel for the mast or another piece of Radio Shack junk? I'll look for you in QST -- Silent Keys in a couple of months. -- ----- Joe S. > > > > > "Dave" wrote in message > news:6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com... > > they may be forgiven, but that won't keep a tower in the air nor make it > > safer to climb. those sins are things you should seriously look at > > correcting as they all affect the strength and safety of your investment > > as well as anyone working on it or playing near it. > > > > "Charlie" wrote in message > > news:11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com... > >> Thank you all very much for your kindness and courtesy in responding to > >> my post. > >> Typically those that berate others have significant problems with self > >> esteem. > >> > >> Oh..as for those "sins"...mine are already forgiven. > >> -- > >> > >> Charlie > >> Ham Radio - AD5TH > >> www.ad5th.com > >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > >> www.deepsouthnet.net > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> "Joe S." wrote in message > >> news:d9m4jr02tvu@news4.newsguy.com... > >>> > >>> > >>> "Charlie" wrote in message > >>> news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... > >>>> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 ft. > >>>> M2 > >>>> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. > >>>> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at > >>>> 90-95 > >>>> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should > >>>> "just > >>>> do it" > >>>> > >>>> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html > >>>> > >>>> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net located > >>>> in > >>>> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on > >>>> 144.240 > >>> MHz > >>>> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All Time > >>> Total > >>>> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown from > >>>> it's > >>>> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> Charlie > >>>> Ham Radio - AD5TH > >>>> www.ad5th.com > >>>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > >>>> www.deepsouthnet.net > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a > >>> permanent > >>> arrangement? > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> ----- > >>> Joe S. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > Article: 214484 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:01:57 -0500 Message-ID: <10915-42BF5E15-583@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: <42bf4f92.44810524@news.crosslink.net> Bob, W9MDK wrote: "Actually, your previous response was much more than I expected." Bob Lay is a well known designer and author. I appreciate his criticisms and comments as I appreciate those of Cecil, Ian, Richard C., Walter, and others. I make mistakes and typos, but can`t blame the shakes. My problems are fuzzy sight and forgetfulness. I`ve never taught, or written for magazines or books. I`m just a perpetual student. I`ve learned a lot here. Thank you to all of you who have taught me much. I always read what Reg, Roy, and Wes have to say. They are rich information sources. There are many more great contributors, but I could not begin to name them all. Some of the conflicts are roll on the floor funny. I thoroughly enjoy them as an observer. Thanks for the memories. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214485 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online From: Ed References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 02:18:00 GMT "Charlie" wrote in news:11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com: > Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... > > Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature > have her way. > Well, Charlie, those trees have withstood mother nature up til now. Whether or not they are healthy, they now are supporting a 90 foot tower, in addition to their own wind load. Things are different now. As far as ANY tower can be blown down.... not really true for a properly engineered and maintained structure. Ed K7AAT Article: 214486 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <11bhipmf68alnae@corp.supernews.com> <1119420226.578082.298220@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119473509.849447.88080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119474987.959994.179880@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4c8nb19026dq2vkt2hq40jftqh6jvhcgl7@4ax.com> <42bc2d46$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: Caculating VSWR from rho and rho from VSWR Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:07:01 -0400 "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42bc2d46$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Tom Donaly wrote: >> Nothing, short of >> a visitation by The Creator will make some of the correspondents >> to this newsgroup change their thinking about how transmission >> lines behave. > > Hey Tom, what do you think about Ramo & Whinnery's assertion > in _Fields_and_Waves_... 2nd edition, page 291 " .. we are > often most interested in the ratio of power in the reflected > wave to that in the incident wave, and this ratio is given > by the square of the magnitude of [rho], as can be shown by > considering the Poynting vectors: Pz-/Pz+ = |rho|^2 (3)" > > Note the plural "Poynting vectors", Pz- for reflected power > and Pz+ for forward power. > -- > 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > Cecil, concerning Poynting vectors, may I refer you to the last paragraph of Page 8-3 in Reflections 1, or the last paragraph beginning on Page 8-2 of Reflections 2. Walt, W2DU Article: 214487 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:26:44 -0500 Message-ID: <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> Thank you Joe for your unsolicited candor..... -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Joe S." wrote in message news:d9nls20sbi@news1.newsguy.com... > > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com... >> Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... >> >> Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature have > her >> way. >> >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> > > No, any tower cannot blow down no matter what. A properly installed > tower, > installed to manufacturer's specs, will withstand at least the wind load > specified by the manufacturer. > > In my initial reply in which I pointed out that the tower was guyed to one > or more trees, I was trying to be nice. Now that others have chimed in, > no > more nice guy. > > That piece of shit will come down on your house, possibly on neighbors' > houses, and possibly on a power line. And when it does, this is a little > bit of what will happen: > -- your homeowner's insurance company will send out a tower engineer to > check the wreckage and will refuse to pay one penny. > -- your neighbors will sue for damages, their insurance companies will > send > out real tower engineers to inspect, and your homeowner's liability > insurance will not pay a penny. > -- the power company will send out their engineers and will charge you to > repair the damage to their lines and equipment. > -- you'll be damn lucky if no one is killed or injured when it comes down. > And if anyone is, you could be looking at jail time, depending on whether > or > not your local prosecuting attorney wants to be a badass. > > Here is a short list of problems with your tower: > -- not installed any way close to manufacturer's specs > -- mixed parts of different towers; what the hell is a "Sears" tower? > Intended for TV antenna use? There is a BIG difference between real > towers > (Rohn) and make-believe towers. > -- base is a joke; a guyed 50-foot 25G requires 1.5 cubic yards of > concrete. > You are supporting 75 feet with less than a yard. > -- base is an even bigger joke when you consider that you used a homemade, > non-galvanized base plate welded to some odd pieces of pipe buried a > couple > of feet in the ground. Welds are not cleaned and galvanized -- they will > rust and break. Did you ever stop to think why tower parts are hot-dipped > galvanized? > -- guyed to trees. Problem is not that the trees will come down, problem > is > that in a big blow, the trees will sway one way, pulling the guy wires > with > them, while the tower is swaying in the other direction, thereby popping > the > guy wires. > -- guyed to power pole. Did you clear this with the local power company > first? When they discover what you have done to their pole, you'll need a > lawyer and a big bank account. > -- too close to house -- when that thing comes down, it'll take out a big > piece of house. > -- no thrust bearing so all the whipping around the mast will do will be > absorbed by the rotator. But that's okay, when the tower comes down you > can > replace the rotator by standing on the ground. > -- did you use high-tensile steel for the mast or another piece of Radio > Shack junk? > > I'll look for you in QST -- Silent Keys in a couple of months. > > > -- > > ----- > Joe S. > >> >> >> >> >> "Dave" wrote in message >> news:6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com... >> > they may be forgiven, but that won't keep a tower in the air nor make >> > it >> > safer to climb. those sins are things you should seriously look at >> > correcting as they all affect the strength and safety of your >> > investment >> > as well as anyone working on it or playing near it. >> > >> > "Charlie" wrote in message >> > news:11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com... >> >> Thank you all very much for your kindness and courtesy in responding >> >> to >> >> my post. >> >> Typically those that berate others have significant problems with self >> >> esteem. >> >> >> >> Oh..as for those "sins"...mine are already forgiven. >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Charlie >> >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> >> www.ad5th.com >> >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Joe S." wrote in message >> >> news:d9m4jr02tvu@news4.newsguy.com... >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> "Charlie" wrote in message >> >>> news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... >> >>>> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at 95 >> >>>> ft. >> >>>> M2 >> >>>> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. >> >>>> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same antennas at >> >>>> 90-95 >> >>>> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas should >> >>>> "just >> >>>> do it" >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html >> >>>> >> >>>> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > located >> >>>> in >> >>>> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT on >> >>>> 144.240 >> >>> MHz >> >>>> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our All > Time >> >>> Total >> >>>> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has grown >> >>>> from >> >>>> it's >> >>>> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> Charlie >> >>>> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> >>>> www.ad5th.com >> >>>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> >>>> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that a >> >>> permanent >> >>> arrangement? >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> >> >>> ----- >> >>> Joe S. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > Article: 214488 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:56:09 -0400 "Dan Richardson arrl net>" wrote in message news:qt6ub1tq6825jenh7f49j64tlcnsv10shv@4ax.com... > In your original post you said: > > "The only thing I have against them (current baluns) is > They are heavy. > and cause the antenna to droop lowering the height of the feedpoint." > > Anyway, with say fifty pounds of tension just how much drop are you > talking about? And what difference does it make? > Apparently it makes more difference to me than it does to you. I don't want it digging into the tree branches. Nothing wrong with your view - its probably a better-informed view than mine - but I'll still use balanced line and I still think baluns are too heavy. I'm just hard-headed that way. :-) Article: 214489 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Leonard Kubiak" References: Subject: Re: Attic antenna: rotator upside-down work? Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 04:06:13 GMT How about buying a rotor manufactured in Austrailla......Problem solved.,........ Article: 214490 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 20:44:47 -0700 ... Joe S. was a bit harsh. However, I have a cousin who is a mucky-muck in the "insurance scam", frankly it is my belief that some of those guys would beat pennies out of widows if it paid enough. If it were me, I'd see if I couldn't work on the tree thing a bit and set up some steel-galvanized pipes set in a generous block of concrete and perhaps tied to deadmen to make sure the "insurance thieves" did not find a new victim in me... ... I have about the same respect for insurance people as I do for lawyers, since the supreme court decision on confiscation of private property--they now join those ranks--the constitution seems damn clear on the point to me--indeed, I would expect any high school kid with a proper course in american history to make a better decision than they managed--so nothing surprises me--and for that reason I'd always plan for the worse... John "Charlie" wrote in message news:11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com... > Thank you Joe for your unsolicited candor..... > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > > > > > > "Joe S." wrote in message > news:d9nls20sbi@news1.newsguy.com... >> >> "Charlie" wrote in message >> news:11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com... >>> Those trees have withstood every storm the past 30+ years..... >>> >>> Any tower can be blown down no matter what ..just let mother nature >>> have >> her >>> way. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Charlie >>> Ham Radio - AD5TH >>> www.ad5th.com >>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >>> www.deepsouthnet.net >>> >> >> No, any tower cannot blow down no matter what. A properly installed >> tower, >> installed to manufacturer's specs, will withstand at least the wind >> load >> specified by the manufacturer. >> >> In my initial reply in which I pointed out that the tower was guyed >> to one >> or more trees, I was trying to be nice. Now that others have chimed >> in, no >> more nice guy. >> >> That piece of shit will come down on your house, possibly on >> neighbors' >> houses, and possibly on a power line. And when it does, this is a >> little >> bit of what will happen: >> -- your homeowner's insurance company will send out a tower engineer >> to >> check the wreckage and will refuse to pay one penny. >> -- your neighbors will sue for damages, their insurance companies >> will send >> out real tower engineers to inspect, and your homeowner's liability >> insurance will not pay a penny. >> -- the power company will send out their engineers and will charge >> you to >> repair the damage to their lines and equipment. >> -- you'll be damn lucky if no one is killed or injured when it comes >> down. >> And if anyone is, you could be looking at jail time, depending on >> whether or >> not your local prosecuting attorney wants to be a badass. >> >> Here is a short list of problems with your tower: >> -- not installed any way close to manufacturer's specs >> -- mixed parts of different towers; what the hell is a "Sears" tower? >> Intended for TV antenna use? There is a BIG difference between real >> towers >> (Rohn) and make-believe towers. >> -- base is a joke; a guyed 50-foot 25G requires 1.5 cubic yards of >> concrete. >> You are supporting 75 feet with less than a yard. >> -- base is an even bigger joke when you consider that you used a >> homemade, >> non-galvanized base plate welded to some odd pieces of pipe buried a >> couple >> of feet in the ground. Welds are not cleaned and galvanized -- they >> will >> rust and break. Did you ever stop to think why tower parts are >> hot-dipped >> galvanized? >> -- guyed to trees. Problem is not that the trees will come down, >> problem is >> that in a big blow, the trees will sway one way, pulling the guy >> wires with >> them, while the tower is swaying in the other direction, thereby >> popping the >> guy wires. >> -- guyed to power pole. Did you clear this with the local power >> company >> first? When they discover what you have done to their pole, you'll >> need a >> lawyer and a big bank account. >> -- too close to house -- when that thing comes down, it'll take out a >> big >> piece of house. >> -- no thrust bearing so all the whipping around the mast will do will >> be >> absorbed by the rotator. But that's okay, when the tower comes down >> you can >> replace the rotator by standing on the ground. >> -- did you use high-tensile steel for the mast or another piece of >> Radio >> Shack junk? >> >> I'll look for you in QST -- Silent Keys in a couple of months. >> >> >> -- >> >> ----- >> Joe S. >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Dave" wrote in message >>> news:6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com... >>> > they may be forgiven, but that won't keep a tower in the air nor >>> > make it >>> > safer to climb. those sins are things you should seriously look >>> > at >>> > correcting as they all affect the strength and safety of your >>> > investment >>> > as well as anyone working on it or playing near it. >>> > >>> > "Charlie" wrote in message >>> > news:11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com... >>> >> Thank you all very much for your kindness and courtesy in >>> >> responding to >>> >> my post. >>> >> Typically those that berate others have significant problems with >>> >> self >>> >> esteem. >>> >> >>> >> Oh..as for those "sins"...mine are already forgiven. >>> >> -- >>> >> >>> >> Charlie >>> >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >>> >> www.ad5th.com >>> >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >>> >> www.deepsouthnet.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> "Joe S." wrote in message >>> >> news:d9m4jr02tvu@news4.newsguy.com... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Charlie" wrote in message >>> >>> news:11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com... >>> >>>> 75 ft guyed tower with 21 foot mast. 2M M2 HO LOOP antenna at >>> >>>> 95 ft. >>> >>>> M2 >>> >>>> 2M9SSB beam antenna at 90 ft. >>> >>>> The difference from antennas at around 30 ft to the same >>> >>>> antennas at >>> >>>> 90-95 >>> >>>> ft is astonishing. Anyone considering raising their antennas >>> >>>> should >>> >>>> "just >>> >>>> do it" >>> >>>> >>> >>>> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I am founder and net control for the Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> located >>> >>>> in >>> >>>> Union,Mississippi. Come join us 7 nights a week at 8:30PM CDT >>> >>>> on >>> >>>> 144.240 >>> >>> MHz >>> >>>> USB. We have 10-15 or more check-ins nightly with 38 on our >>> >>>> All >> Time >>> >>> Total >>> >>>> Roster and nearly 25 on our Active Roster! The net has >>> >>>> grown from >>> >>>> it's >>> >>>> first Roll Call on April 8,2005 at an amazing rate. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Charlie >>> >>>> Ham Radio - AD5TH >>> >>>> www.ad5th.com >>> >>>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >>> >>>> www.deepsouthnet.net >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Do I understand that the guy wires terminate to trees? Is that >>> >>> a >>> >>> permanent >>> >>> arrangement? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> >>> Joe S. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> > > Article: 214491 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 21:05:39 -0700 Chris: You do not agree with any of his analysis? You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a balun? If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? John "Chris Trask" wrote in message news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very strange, > indeed. > > -- > Chris > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > _ |/ Principal Engineer > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > \ \ / \ > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > . ( ) \ > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm >> >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. >> >> John >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following remarks >> > were >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current baluns: >> > >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." >> > >> > and: >> > >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start >> > to finish of each transmission line. " >> > >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 baluns >> > on >> > a >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The >> > design >> > can >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure of >> > this >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be >> > obtained >> > from my >> > web page at: >> > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf >> > >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above >> > statements to >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 >> > \ \ / \ >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 >> > . ( ) \ >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net >> > | | | | \ '. >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ >> > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Article: 214492 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:01:07 GMT Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot under any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. So, he tests the single core Guanella balun with the usual test for a current balun (short the outputs to gound one at a time and see if the input return loss changes) knowing fully well that the Guanella 4:1 current balun on a single core will only work with floating loads. He is now equally desparate to prove that since nobody but he understands transmission line transformers it is impossible for anyone else to understand or apply them. He also fails completely in understanding that the ferrite used in transmission line transformers is to improve the low frequency end by making the transmission line appear longer. He's truly amazing, and he is mad as hell. He claims that it is absolutely impossible to make a 4:1 current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers (of any kind whatsoever), while the Guanelle 4:1 current balun has a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core right in front of him. He also makes numerous other outrageous claims that defy all manner of electronics theory. Here are some of his more memorable quotes along with the URLs for the QRP-L archives so you can see that he is not taken out of context, contrary to what he says: "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." which in the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050612/020884.html This is a good one: "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel transmission lines requires different voltages from the start to finish of each transmission line. " which in the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html and the following: "It is physically impossible to build a transmission line current balun other than 1:1 on a single core when the windings have mutual coupling through the core." which is in the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021442.html as well as: "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel transmission lines requires different voltages from the start to finish of each transmission line. You can find it in voltage maps of the balun." which is the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html and additionally: "It is quite possible to build any reasonable ratio of conventional transformer (as long as it is the square of turns ratio) on a single core. It is quite impossible to build a current balun of any ratio other than 1:1 using multiple transmission line transformers on a single core unless flux leakage between transmission lines is terrible." which is in the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021408.html as well as: "It impossible to build anything but a 1:1 ratio current balun when multiple transmission line transformers are placed on a single core. The voltage map shows that, as does the basic electrical rule of current baluns that all currents in all windings must sum to zero under all load balance conditions." which is in the archives at: http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021416.html There is no room for ambiguity here. As you can see, he is making unsubstantiated claims of "it is impossible" and "it is well established" that have no basis in fact. The problem here is really that I solved the problem of the single-core 4:1 current balun and he is mad as hell because in his world such a thing cannot possibly exist. So, he makes up additional new electronics theories to prove that everything you know is wrong. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "John Smith" wrote in message news:wWKve.85$yA4.2445335@news.sisna.com... > Chris: > > You do not agree with any of his analysis? > > You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a balun? > If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? > > And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? > > John > > "Chris Trask" wrote in message > news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very strange, > > indeed. > > > > -- > > Chris > > > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > > _ |/ Principal Engineer > > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > > \ \ / \ > > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > > . ( ) \ > > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > > > "John Smith" wrote in message > > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... > >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: > >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm > >> > >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. > >> > >> John > >> > >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message > >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following remarks > >> > were > >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current baluns: > >> > > >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > >> > > >> > and: > >> > > >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > >> > to finish of each transmission line. " > >> > > >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 baluns > >> > on > >> > a > >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The > >> > design > >> > can > >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure of > >> > this > >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be > >> > obtained > >> > from my > >> > web page at: > >> > > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf > >> > > >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above > >> > statements to > >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. > >> > > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer > >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > >> > \ \ / \ > >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > >> > . ( ) \ > >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > >> > | | | | \ '. > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > >> > > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > Article: 214493 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 01:13:31 -0400 Message-ID: <11bv2l61vm5red4@corp.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> Dear Charlie AD5TH: You have performed a great service by presenting the results of K5HGR's engineering and your work. Its educational value is almost beyond calculation. In this part of the world one would need to have a licensed professional engineer (PE) sign off on such a structure. Clearly, down your way one has freedom to innovate without concern for issues that we are required to consider. My goodness. I recently completed a task of a tall tower in a populated area where I had to have design work from the factory's PE, have that work reviewed by a local PE, get permission from the local municipality, have the airport sign off on the height, take soil samples so that a safe foundation could be designed, watch the fabrication of the foundation to make sure that it was done right, and on and on... Course, we do get serious wind up here and it just would not do to kill someone with a tower collapse. You sure are fortunate not to have all of the things we have to put up with and not even have to worry about wind. Do keep us posted. The whole story has yet to be revealed. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net Article: 214494 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:16:08 GMT It's not a matter of whether I disagree with him or not. It's a matter of him standing on a cybersoapbox and declaring to the world in numerous ways that such a thing cannot work and that only his analysis of how it can and cannot work is valid. He can't deny that he claimed that it was impossible, so now he has to prove that the solution cannot possibly work the way that he knows that it cannot work. Whatever. Actually, I sort of like all of the visibility he's giving me. More people are learning that I have solved the problem because of him broadcasting it and trying desperately to dismiss it than would ever know if I had just put it on my web page and not said anything. Free advertising. I also owe it to him for inspiring me to solve the problem. If he hadn't made such outrageous statements on the QRP-L list I might never have bothered to look into the problem and learn that nobody had yet solved it, or at least solved it and made the solution known. You never know how and when opportunities like this are going to be dropped in your lap. And sometimes they come from the most unexpected places. Trick is in recognizing the opportunity and then solving it. If people were to listen to him, the problem would never be solved because according to him it is impossible to make such a thing. I've got three of them on my bench right now made three different ways, and they all work just fine despite the fact that he says they can't. The low frequency 3dB point is around 600kHz and the high frequency 3dB point is beyond 500MHz. Not bad for a couple of hours of work and a few spare parts from other projects. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "John Smith" wrote in message news:wWKve.85$yA4.2445335@news.sisna.com... > Chris: > > You do not agree with any of his analysis? > > You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a balun? > If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? > > And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? > > John > > "Chris Trask" wrote in message > news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very strange, > > indeed. > > > > -- > > Chris > > > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > > _ |/ Principal Engineer > > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > > \ \ / \ > > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > > . ( ) \ > > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > > > "John Smith" wrote in message > > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... > >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: > >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm > >> > >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. > >> > >> John > >> > >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message > >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following remarks > >> > were > >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current baluns: > >> > > >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > >> > > >> > and: > >> > > >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > >> > to finish of each transmission line. " > >> > > >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 baluns > >> > on > >> > a > >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The > >> > design > >> > can > >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure of > >> > this > >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be > >> > obtained > >> > from my > >> > web page at: > >> > > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf > >> > > >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above > >> > statements to > >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. > >> > > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer > >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > >> > \ \ / \ > >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > >> > . ( ) \ > >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > >> > | | | | \ '. > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > >> > > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > Article: 214495 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: K7JEB Subject: Re: Pizza, New Great-Circle Plotting Program Message-ID: <134vb19lsaj3a9bt58shjtn564smv3elsi@4ax.com> References: <90lrb1p949i59dv4la1bdm5lnid1tk74tq@4ax.com> <1119790992.821564.264980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:40:35 -0700 On 26 Jun 2005 06:03:12 -0700, "CAM" wrote: >K7JEB wrote: >> Oh, yeah, that name. Bring up an azimuth plot of the >> entire world and it hits you in the eye like a big >> pizza pie -- that's amoré! >Just don't expect to find it by doing a web search >for "pizza". :-) 'pizza + great + circle' works well, though. k7jeb Article: 214496 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:57:59 -0700 Chris: Well, your design certainly started me thinking. So, I began winding... on a single core--of course... I am NOT claiming this is unique, but it works better than the design you presented, at least, ON my sw receiver... ... take a look at it here: http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/balun2.JPG Warmest regards, John "Chris Trask" wrote in message news:nKLve.10037$hK3.6644@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... > Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot > under > any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. So, he > tests > the single core Guanella balun with the usual test for a current balun > (short the outputs to gound one at a time and see if the input return > loss > changes) knowing fully well that the Guanella 4:1 current balun on a > single > core will only work with floating loads. > > He is now equally desparate to prove that since nobody but he > understands transmission line transformers it is impossible for anyone > else > to understand or apply them. He also fails completely in > understanding that > the ferrite used in transmission line transformers is to improve the > low > frequency end by making the transmission line appear longer. > > He's truly amazing, and he is mad as hell. He claims that it is > absolutely impossible to make a 4:1 current balun on a single core > with a > pair of 1:1 transformers (of any kind whatsoever), while the Guanelle > 4:1 > current balun has a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core right in > front > of him. He also makes numerous other outrageous claims that defy all > manner > of electronics theory. > > Here are some of his more memorable quotes along with the URLs for > the > QRP-L archives so you can see that he is not taken out of context, > contrary > to what he says: > > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > > which in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050612/020884.html > > This is a good one: > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > to finish of each transmission line. " > > which in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > and the following: > > "It is physically impossible to build a transmission line > current balun other than 1:1 on a single core when the > windings have mutual coupling through the core." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021442.html > > as well as: > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > transmission lines requires different voltages from the > start to finish of each transmission line. You can find it > in voltage maps of the balun." > > which is the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > and additionally: > > "It is quite possible to build any reasonable ratio of > conventional transformer (as long as it is the square of > turns ratio) on a single core. It is quite impossible to > build a current balun of any ratio other than 1:1 using > multiple transmission line transformers on a single core > unless flux leakage between transmission lines is terrible." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021408.html > > as well as: > > "It impossible to build anything but a 1:1 ratio current > balun when multiple transmission line transformers are > placed on a single core. The voltage map shows that, as does > the basic electrical rule of current baluns that all > currents in all windings must sum to zero under all load > balance conditions." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021416.html > > There is no room for ambiguity here. As you can see, he is making > unsubstantiated claims of "it is impossible" and "it is well > established" > that have no basis in fact. The problem here is really that I solved > the > problem of the single-core 4:1 current balun and he is mad as hell > because > in his world such a thing cannot possibly exist. So, he makes up > additional > new electronics theories to prove that everything you know is wrong. > > Chris > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > _ |/ Principal Engineer > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > \ \ / \ > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > . ( ) \ > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:wWKve.85$yA4.2445335@news.sisna.com... >> Chris: >> >> You do not agree with any of his analysis? >> >> You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a >> balun? >> If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? >> >> And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? >> >> John >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message >> news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very >> > strange, >> > indeed. >> > >> > -- >> > Chris >> > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 >> > \ \ / \ >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 >> > . ( ) \ >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net >> > | | | | \ '. >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ >> > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks >> > >> > "John Smith" wrote in message >> > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... >> >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: >> >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm >> >> >> >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. >> >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message >> >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following >> >> > remarks >> >> > were >> >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current >> >> > baluns: >> >> > >> >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that >> >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." >> >> > >> >> > and: >> >> > >> >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel >> >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start >> >> > to finish of each transmission line. " >> >> > >> >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 >> >> > baluns >> >> > on >> >> > a >> >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The >> >> > design >> >> > can >> >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure >> >> > of >> >> > this >> >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be >> >> > obtained >> >> > from my >> >> > web page at: >> >> > >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf >> >> > >> >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above >> >> > statements to >> >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. >> >> > >> >> > Chris >> >> > >> >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and >> >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF >> >> > Communications >> >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / >> >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY >> >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer >> >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research >> >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 >> >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 >> >> > \ \ / \ >> >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 >> >> > . ( ) \ >> >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net >> >> > | | | | \ '. >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask >> >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ >> >> > >> >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > > Article: 214497 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005 22:15:24 -0700 Chris: I see. It is interesting reading anyway, thanks. Warmest regards, John "Chris Trask" wrote in message news:nKLve.10037$hK3.6644@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... > Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot > under > any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. So, he > tests > the single core Guanella balun with the usual test for a current balun > (short the outputs to gound one at a time and see if the input return > loss > changes) knowing fully well that the Guanella 4:1 current balun on a > single > core will only work with floating loads. > > He is now equally desparate to prove that since nobody but he > understands transmission line transformers it is impossible for anyone > else > to understand or apply them. He also fails completely in > understanding that > the ferrite used in transmission line transformers is to improve the > low > frequency end by making the transmission line appear longer. > > He's truly amazing, and he is mad as hell. He claims that it is > absolutely impossible to make a 4:1 current balun on a single core > with a > pair of 1:1 transformers (of any kind whatsoever), while the Guanelle > 4:1 > current balun has a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core right in > front > of him. He also makes numerous other outrageous claims that defy all > manner > of electronics theory. > > Here are some of his more memorable quotes along with the URLs for > the > QRP-L archives so you can see that he is not taken out of context, > contrary > to what he says: > > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > > which in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050612/020884.html > > This is a good one: > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > to finish of each transmission line. " > > which in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > and the following: > > "It is physically impossible to build a transmission line > current balun other than 1:1 on a single core when the > windings have mutual coupling through the core." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021442.html > > as well as: > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > transmission lines requires different voltages from the > start to finish of each transmission line. You can find it > in voltage maps of the balun." > > which is the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > and additionally: > > "It is quite possible to build any reasonable ratio of > conventional transformer (as long as it is the square of > turns ratio) on a single core. It is quite impossible to > build a current balun of any ratio other than 1:1 using > multiple transmission line transformers on a single core > unless flux leakage between transmission lines is terrible." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021408.html > > as well as: > > "It impossible to build anything but a 1:1 ratio current > balun when multiple transmission line transformers are > placed on a single core. The voltage map shows that, as does > the basic electrical rule of current baluns that all > currents in all windings must sum to zero under all load > balance conditions." > > which is in the archives at: > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021416.html > > There is no room for ambiguity here. As you can see, he is making > unsubstantiated claims of "it is impossible" and "it is well > established" > that have no basis in fact. The problem here is really that I solved > the > problem of the single-core 4:1 current balun and he is mad as hell > because > in his world such a thing cannot possibly exist. So, he makes up > additional > new electronics theories to prove that everything you know is wrong. > > Chris > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > _ |/ Principal Engineer > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > \ \ / \ > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > . ( ) \ > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > "John Smith" wrote in message > news:wWKve.85$yA4.2445335@news.sisna.com... >> Chris: >> >> You do not agree with any of his analysis? >> >> You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a >> balun? >> If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? >> >> And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? >> >> John >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message >> news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very >> > strange, >> > indeed. >> > >> > -- >> > Chris >> > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 >> > \ \ / \ >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 >> > . ( ) \ >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net >> > | | | | \ '. >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ >> > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks >> > >> > "John Smith" wrote in message >> > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... >> >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: >> >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm >> >> >> >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. >> >> >> >> John >> >> >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message >> >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following >> >> > remarks >> >> > were >> >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current >> >> > baluns: >> >> > >> >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that >> >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." >> >> > >> >> > and: >> >> > >> >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel >> >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start >> >> > to finish of each transmission line. " >> >> > >> >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 >> >> > baluns >> >> > on >> >> > a >> >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The >> >> > design >> >> > can >> >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure >> >> > of >> >> > this >> >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be >> >> > obtained >> >> > from my >> >> > web page at: >> >> > >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf >> >> > >> >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above >> >> > statements to >> >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. >> >> > >> >> > Chris >> >> > >> >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and >> >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF >> >> > Communications >> >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / >> >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY >> >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer >> >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research >> >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 >> >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 >> >> > \ \ / \ >> >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 >> >> > . ( ) \ >> >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net >> >> > | | | | \ '. >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask >> >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ >> >> > >> >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > > Article: 214498 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:31:23 -0700 Message-ID: <11bvaqek0bql349@corp.supernews.com> References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> Hal Rosser wrote: > > Apparently it makes more difference to me than it does to you. > I don't want it digging into the tree branches. > Nothing wrong with your view - its probably a better-informed view than > mine - but I'll still use balanced line and I still think baluns are too > heavy. I'm just hard-headed that way. :-) > Unfortunately, using "balanced" (symmetrical) line doesn't prevent or reduce feedline radiation. It's subject to the same effects as coax. The only difference is where it happens. Conducted common mode current is explained in http://eznec.com/Amateur/Articles/Baluns.pdf. As for current induced by mutual coupling, both types of feedline will have the same amount of induced common mode current, due to the same cause and having the same effect. It's not the geometry of the feedline that causes or prevents feedline radiation. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214499 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: <11bvav1rb4bjec4@corp.supernews.com> References: Owen wrote: > . . . > This leads me to think that measurement of the imbalance current at a > single point might not give the "big picture". I found scenarios where > inserting an imperfect balun increased the current at a point (it > changed the magnitude of the standing wave and more importantly moved > the current minimum), so I could see someone with a handy-dandy > current probe measuring such a situation and insisting they have proof > the baluns don't "work". This situation lends itself well to modeling, where it's readily illustrated. While it's often difficult to exactly model a given physical setup, modeling allows us to control the variables and clearly see what's happening. We can often apply this knowledge and insight to real situations. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214500 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark Subject: Re: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:10:11 +0200 Message-ID: References: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 21:20:35 GMT, "Richard W. Solomon, W1KSZ" wrote: >RG-58 ?? >You might as well bury the antenna in the ground !! That is the worst >stuff you can use. > >First, How long a run do you need ? >Second, What is the connector required on each end ? > Each installation will be different, but to use mine as an example, 6 Metre pole, 10 Metres of cable, the antenna connector is a FME and at the phone end I think it is some sort of Sony Ericsson special (looks a bit like a SMC) Article: 214501 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: References: <11bvav1rb4bjec4@corp.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:25:46 GMT On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 00:33:52 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >Owen wrote: >> . . . >> This leads me to think that measurement of the imbalance current at a >> single point might not give the "big picture". I found scenarios where >> inserting an imperfect balun increased the current at a point (it >> changed the magnitude of the standing wave and more importantly moved >> the current minimum), so I could see someone with a handy-dandy >> current probe measuring such a situation and insisting they have proof >> the baluns don't "work". > >This situation lends itself well to modeling, where it's readily >illustrated. While it's often difficult to exactly model a given >physical setup, modeling allows us to control the variables and clearly >see what's happening. We can often apply this knowledge and insight to >real situations. > Exactly. Nothing I wrote was intended to comment adversely on your quoted paper, it is interesting and relevant... just a pity the results tables are not 100% legible. Modeling shows me the risks of single point measurement, and I agree entirely with your final statement "While it's often difficult to exactly model a given physical setup, modeling allows us to control the variables and clearly see what's happening. We can often apply this knowledge and insight to real situations". A whole lot of insight can be gained in a very short time. Owen -- Article: 214502 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hugh kirkland" Subject: Re:the shops have to make a profit Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:42:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <116lha4nlqo206c@news.supernews.com> <4275B0E9.8010307@rchrd.com> <117cfucp7q777ae@news.supernews.com> <117g8hfdoimsn0a@news.supernews.com> <1181k5f5tagrv79@corp.supernews.com> "Joel Kolstad" wrote in message news:1181k5f5tagrv79@corp.supernews.com... > "HAO'S" wrote in message news:d5g8tk$114$1@nic.grnet.gr... > > what a rip off here in europe adapters go for 5-8euros! > > is this a radio shack thing (scam?). > > It's not uncommon for many stores in the US to have large mark-ups on what are > really cheap accessories. For instance, in many of the big electronics > stores, you'll see USB cables for, e.g., $9.95 when they're more like a couple > of bucks mail order! This is something of a silly game, but given the > significant competition for the 'big ticket' items (computers, printers, TVs, > etc.), you can see why they do this. > > Keep in mind that this is the same country where coffee shops selling lattes > for $3/cup are still multiplying like rabbits. :-) > > ---Joel Kolstad > > Article: 214503 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:43:18 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 23:56:09 -0400, "Hal Rosser" wrote: > >"Dan Richardson arrl net>" wrote in message >news:qt6ub1tq6825jenh7f49j64tlcnsv10shv@4ax.com... >> In your original post you said: >> >> "The only thing I have against them (current baluns) is >> They are heavy. >> and cause the antenna to droop lowering the height of the feedpoint." >> >> Anyway, with say fifty pounds of tension just how much drop are you >> talking about? And what difference does it make? >> > >Apparently it makes more difference to me than it does to you. >I don't want it digging into the tree branches. >Nothing wrong with your view - its probably a better-informed view than >mine - but I'll still use balanced line and I still think baluns are too >heavy. I'm just hard-headed that way. :-) > You may choose to use the balun near the ground where its weight can be supported and you can use coax to bring in the lead from outside. The piece of balanced line will give you low loss to the balun and the loss from the coax will be minimum due to the short length. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214504 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:48:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3qpvb19jcrkhqli34nbqt055qm9qejru15@4ax.com> References: On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 03:41:01 GMT, "Chris Trask" wrote: > I came across a very >interesting 1:1 design that uses two equal length pieces of coax that would >each be less than an eighth of a wavelength long and which has a very wide >bandwidth. I copied the schematic (which has a slight error) and the photo >to a single sheet PDF file if anyone's interested. I would be interested. I can leave an address or you can get it from QRZ. thanks -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214505 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: offset diople antenna Message-ID: <63qvb1tj0t9sagasb29ms1086qst0e594n@4ax.com> References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> <11bpan6pobgvq5c@corp.supernews.com> <11brno2m7vmjg99@corp.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:54:23 GMT On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:47:30 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >Owen wrote: >> Roy Lewallen wrote: >>>. . . >>> See above comments. Routing the feeder at right angles to the antenna >>> doesn't eliminate current due to mutual coupling, and neither does a >>> feedpoint balun. >>> >> >> Roy, doesn't this suggest that there is benefit in twisting an open wire >> feedline to attempt to expose each conductor to similar coupling to the >> external fields. Clearly the benefit will be better for a higher twist >> rate. Whilst achieving sufficient twist rate with a wide air-spaced line >> may be impractical, it is probably quite realisable with ladder line >> (notwithstanding the downsides of ladder line). > >No. The problem isn't that the coupling is different to each conductor >of the transmission line, it's that the coupling is different from the >transmission line to each side of the antenna. Twisting the line won't >change the coupling of this common mode current by any appreciable >amount. Unfortunately. Yes, of course. Twisting helps differential coupling (which in most cases of sound installationwill not be an issue by virtue of the relatively large distance from any other conductors to the feedline), but not common mode. Owen -- Article: 214506 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: offset diople antenna Message-ID: <7dqvb15ls43gltfa65ir7j6nabbeqg1ct3@4ax.com> References: <_K6dncKmBLpD0SHfRVn-uQ@rogers.com> <11bpan6pobgvq5c@corp.supernews.com> <11brno2m7vmjg99@corp.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:57:45 GMT On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 15:47:30 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >Owen wrote: >> Roy Lewallen wrote: >>>. . . >>> See above comments. Routing the feeder at right angles to the antenna >>> doesn't eliminate current due to mutual coupling, and neither does a >>> feedpoint balun. >>> >> >> Roy, doesn't this suggest that there is benefit in twisting an open wire >> feedline to attempt to expose each conductor to similar coupling to the >> external fields. Clearly the benefit will be better for a higher twist >> rate. Whilst achieving sufficient twist rate with a wide air-spaced line >> may be impractical, it is probably quite realisable with ladder line >> (notwithstanding the downsides of ladder line). > >No. The problem isn't that the coupling is different to each conductor >of the transmission line, it's that the coupling is different from the >transmission line to each side of the antenna. Twisting the line won't >change the coupling of this common mode current by any appreciable >amount. Unfortunately. Yes, of course. Twisting helps reduce differential coupling (which in most cases of sound installation will not be an issue by virtue of the relatively large distance from any other conductors to the feedline), but not common mode. Owen -- Article: 214507 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:38:13 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: momentum"Sloshing" EM Energy References: <42beb22b.4515032@news.crosslink.net> <17269-42BF48D5-494@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42bff42e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Bob, W9MDK wrote: > "The above paragraph, however, was a rather difficult to ubderstand > reading,---." > > I responded that the load would not accept volts and amps in a ratio > which does not fit its load impedance. Perhaps we should reason together > some more. The transmission line delivers power to the load at its Zo. > When the load impedance is different, there is a surplus of either volts > or amps. The surplus nust be reflected because the load can`t take it. > That`s all. Another way of saying the same thing: The mismatched load rejects voltage in the form of Vref and rejects current in the form of Iref. Thus Vload is the phasor sum of Vfor and Vref. Iload is the phasor sum of Ifor and Iref. The result is that (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) = Zload. If Z0 and Zload are purely resistive and Zload > Z0 then: Zload = (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor-Iref) Vfor and Vref are in phase, Ifor and Iref are 180 deg out of phase, because we need a higher voltage and a lower current for RL > Z0. If Z0 and Zload are purely resistive and Zload < Z0 then: Zload = (Vfor-Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) Vfor and Vref are 180 deg out of phase, Ifor and Iref are in phase, because we need a lower voltage and a higher current for RL < Z0. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214508 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:45:03 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42bff5c9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Ed wrote: > As far as ANY tower can be blown down.... not really true for a properly > engineered and maintained structure. I saw on The National Geographic Channel yesterday where all towers left standing will be blown down when our sun explodes about five billion years from now. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214509 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:53:54 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Caculating VSWR from rho and rho from VSWR References: <11bhipmf68alnae@corp.supernews.com> <1119420226.578082.298220@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119473509.849447.88080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119474987.959994.179880@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4c8nb19026dq2vkt2hq40jftqh6jvhcgl7@4ax.com> <42bc2d46$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42bff7db$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Walter Maxwell wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote: >>... Ramo & Whinnery's assertion >>in _Fields_and_Waves_... 2nd edition, page 291 " .. we are >>often most interested in the ratio of power in the reflected >>wave to that in the incident wave, and this ratio is given >>by the square of the magnitude of [rho], as can be shown by >>considering the Poynting vectors: Pz-/Pz+ = |rho|^2 (3)" >> >>Note the plural "Poynting vectors", Pz- for reflected power >>and Pz+ for forward power. > > Cecil, concerning Poynting vectors, may I refer you to the last paragraph of > Page 8-3 in Reflections 1, or the last paragraph beginning on Page 8-2 of > Reflections 2. Thanks Walt, it's been about 15 years since I first read that short and sweet chapter in "Reflections 1". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214510 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W8LNA Subject: Re: Pizza, New Great-Circle Plotting Program References: <90lrb1p949i59dv4la1bdm5lnid1tk74tq@4ax.com> <1119790992.821564.264980@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <134vb19lsaj3a9bt58shjtn564smv3elsi@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:58:53 GMT K7JEB wrote: > On 26 Jun 2005 06:03:12 -0700, "CAM" wrote: > > >>K7JEB wrote: >> >>>Oh, yeah, that name. Bring up an azimuth plot of the >>>entire world and it hits you in the eye like a big >>>pizza pie -- that's amoré! > > >>Just don't expect to find it by doing a web search >>for "pizza". :-) > > > 'pizza + great + circle' works well, though. > > k7jeb Or you could go here: http://tonnesoftware.com/pizza.html Article: 214511 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:03:45 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun References: Message-ID: <42bffa2b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Chris Trask wrote: > Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot under > any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. Personalities aside, 4:1 single core Guanella baluns are covered on pages 9-13 to 9-21 in "Transmission Line Transformers", by Jerry Sevick. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214512 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:28:19 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119876188.153443.74740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42bfffec$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> W8JI wrote: > I'd like to clarify Sevik used transmission line mode, not transformer > mode coupling, in his single core 4:1 current balun. My contention is > it is impossible to build a 4:1 current balun on a single core unless > it is a primary-secondary isolation transformer, and an isolation > transformer would be a very limited performance balun compared to a > properly constructed transmission line balun. Just so we know which Sevik design you are talking about, is it Fig 9-8(B) of "Transmission Line Transformers"? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214513 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: wire antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 08:55:04 -0500 Message-ID: <11c01a1csseel48@corp.supernews.com> References: <1119388371.513289.55030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119874672.517199.160770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119876122.864916.190150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> redhat wrote: > yes, can't i use a coax as an antenna by trimming its end at the > calculated length lamda=C/f where for example length of wire = 1/8 > lamda > Yes But unless lambda is very short it would be a waste of time and a lot of money compared to using the coax for it's intended purpose and an attached antenna made from separate materials. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 214514 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob B. Subject: Re: Attic antenna: rotator upside-down work? Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:49:27 -0400 Message-ID: References: Thanks for the responses, everyone! I'm going to explore the possibility of attaching to a floor joist, though the suggestion of getting the rotator from Australia wasn't half-bad! btw, Blue Dawg, Some links to this particular antenna: sold here: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC4228 UHF TV antenna comparison chart (I like the fact that the CM4228 actually has "some" gain for VHF 9-13) http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html Article: 214515 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Henry Kolesnik" References: <1119815937.147508.13610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: 2 greatest Antennas I have ever had Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:10:40 GMT How is the feedline dressed, paralleling the lower vertical half of the "C", or extending horizontally and if so how long is the run. Also you didn't state how close the 1/2 wave section was to the tree but I assume only inches. Is the tree dead or live and do you notice any loss of radiation on the shaded side vs. the open side? tnx -- 73 Hank WD5JFR wrote in message news:1119815937.147508.13610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... >I have 2 antennas that I an very happy with. These are by far the best > preforming antennas I have ever owned. > > The first is a 17 METER antenna unlike anything you have ever seen or > heard of before. > > It is a 17 METER half wave dipole that is constructed in the shape of > the letter "C". I first saw this design in the former East German > sector about a year after the Berlin wall came down. I happened upon a > deserted East German military base that had this huge antenna farm. I > thought about it for a number of years and then began experimenting > with it...and came up with a real winned. > > As I said, it is a half wave dipole that is constructed in the shape of > the letter "C". The vertical part of the letter "C" is 1/4 wave length > attached to a tree with couple screw-in ceramic standoff insulators I > got at Home Depot. The upper and lower horizontal parts of the letter > "C" and 1/8 wave length. You feed it in the middle of the vertical > part of the letter "C" with 50 ohm coax. It is a perfect 1 to 1 match. > > Now, this is the IMPORTANT PART and the secret of it's success. YOU > MOUNT THE LOWER HORIZONTAL SECTION OF THE LETTER "C" SO THAT IT IS 24 > INCHES OFF THE GROUND. This is extremely important because it give is > a very low angle or radiation. > > ALSO IMPORTANT. Construct this antenna with the largest gauge of > stranded wire you can find. Go to the local hardware store and buy the > thickest stranded wire you can get. Or, you can also use 1/8 or 3/8 > copper tubing. You want to have as much surface area as possible > > > OK, the SECOND GREAT ANTENNA that I have is a Windom. Now, don't > laugh, but this is the 10 thru 40 meter Windom THAT A GUY ON EBAY SELLS > FOR $20. I have the thing 35 feet in the air. Feed it directly with > 50 ohm coax. > > The guy down the street has a G5RV (about $75 or $85) at 50 feet and a > Force 12 vertical dipole (about $300) and it blows both of them away. > I work stuff that he can't even hear. We both have similar equipment. > And being in the same neighborhood, our locations are similar. > > That Windom is the best $20 investment I ever made. > > Bill Hansen > Article: 214516 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:22:55 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119876188.153443.74740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> > It seems once something gets into print, it is accepted as fact even > when incorrect. > ================================ Especially on this newsgroup. At least until it is refuted. How can one distinguish between fact and fiction? The gift of the gab and length of diatribe appear to predominate. Article: 214517 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Rob Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <42bff5c9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:12:52 -0400 Charlie, It's very obvious a lot of hard work went into that project, this makes it even harder to face criticism, but don't lose sight of the fact that it's constructive (even though it's deteriorating rapidly.) There really are numerous problems with your installation, and some will inevitably lead to catastrophic failure and potential loss of life. Be careful around that thing until you can fix it up. In the least, install dedicated anchor points set in a sizeable concrete base, shorten your top mast and get a thrust bearing up there. Put at least 1/3 of your rotatable mast below the bearing. This is by no means a complete list, but I think the majority of readers will agree it's a good place to start. Rob Article: 214518 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: 27 Jun 2005 09:27:27 -0500 Message-ID: <8764vz27u8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <2rGdncP__JZdOSPfRVn-1w@crocker.com> >how many sins can i count... >1. guyed to trees >2. guyed to power pole >3. saddled lots of dead horses >4. two different tower types mixed >5. doesn't look like a proper base... at least not to rohn specs. >6. that mast sure does look too long above the kind of tiny tube top. >7. no thrust bearing >8. too close to power line? probably since its guyed to a power pole. 9. no thimbles on the guy wire connections. Wonder how long before those 10. judging by how the loop of guy wire through the turnbuckle is still fairly round, I'd bet the tension on the guy wires is too slack. Should have 400 lbs per guy for 3/16" EHS on Rohn 25. 11. no safety wire through the turnbuckles. At least the loading (antennas) are pretty light. Tor N4OGW Article: 214519 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:38:35 GMT John, Yes, that's very nice. A pair of trifilar windings on a single core. That's a variation of a 1:1 transmission line balun that I found in a textbook. I've put the schematic and photo in a PDF file on my web page at: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/EM1to1Balun.PDF I'm qite certain that the two dots connecting the outer conductors to the shield box are in error as in the photo the outer insulating jacket is not broken. And those connections do not make sense, at least not immediately, as the voltages and currents at that point are dissimilar. Also, there should only be the one ground connection at the near end of the second cable. Seems to me that you could use this approach to make a nice, inexpensive and lightwieght balun with just two 4-foot pieces of coax. I would certainly like someone to try that and let us know how well it works. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "John Smith" wrote in message news:RzMve.98$Hk6.2623506@news.sisna.com... > Chris: > > Well, your design certainly started me thinking. So, I began winding... > on a single core--of course... > > I am NOT claiming this is unique, but it works better than the design > you presented, at least, ON my sw receiver... > > ... take a look at it here: > http://blake.prohosting.com/mailguy2/balun2.JPG > > Warmest regards, > John > > > "Chris Trask" wrote in message > news:nKLve.10037$hK3.6644@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot > > under > > any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. So, he > > tests > > the single core Guanella balun with the usual test for a current balun > > (short the outputs to gound one at a time and see if the input return > > loss > > changes) knowing fully well that the Guanella 4:1 current balun on a > > single > > core will only work with floating loads. > > > > He is now equally desparate to prove that since nobody but he > > understands transmission line transformers it is impossible for anyone > > else > > to understand or apply them. He also fails completely in > > understanding that > > the ferrite used in transmission line transformers is to improve the > > low > > frequency end by making the transmission line appear longer. > > > > He's truly amazing, and he is mad as hell. He claims that it is > > absolutely impossible to make a 4:1 current balun on a single core > > with a > > pair of 1:1 transformers (of any kind whatsoever), while the Guanelle > > 4:1 > > current balun has a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core right in > > front > > of him. He also makes numerous other outrageous claims that defy all > > manner > > of electronics theory. > > > > Here are some of his more memorable quotes along with the URLs for > > the > > QRP-L archives so you can see that he is not taken out of context, > > contrary > > to what he says: > > > > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > > > > which in the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050612/020884.html > > > > This is a good one: > > > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > > to finish of each transmission line. " > > > > which in the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > > > and the following: > > > > "It is physically impossible to build a transmission line > > current balun other than 1:1 on a single core when the > > windings have mutual coupling through the core." > > > > which is in the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021442.html > > > > as well as: > > > > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > > transmission lines requires different voltages from the > > start to finish of each transmission line. You can find it > > in voltage maps of the balun." > > > > which is the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050621/021331.html > > > > and additionally: > > > > "It is quite possible to build any reasonable ratio of > > conventional transformer (as long as it is the square of > > turns ratio) on a single core. It is quite impossible to > > build a current balun of any ratio other than 1:1 using > > multiple transmission line transformers on a single core > > unless flux leakage between transmission lines is terrible." > > > > which is in the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021408.html > > > > as well as: > > > > "It impossible to build anything but a 1:1 ratio current > > balun when multiple transmission line transformers are > > placed on a single core. The voltage map shows that, as does > > the basic electrical rule of current baluns that all > > currents in all windings must sum to zero under all load > > balance conditions." > > > > which is in the archives at: > > > > http://mailman.qth.net/pipermail/qrp-l/20050622/021416.html > > > > There is no room for ambiguity here. As you can see, he is making > > unsubstantiated claims of "it is impossible" and "it is well > > established" > > that have no basis in fact. The problem here is really that I solved > > the > > problem of the single-core 4:1 current balun and he is mad as hell > > because > > in his world such a thing cannot possibly exist. So, he makes up > > additional > > new electronics theories to prove that everything you know is wrong. > > > > Chris > > > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > > _ |/ Principal Engineer > > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > > \ \ / \ > > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > > . ( ) \ > > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > > > "John Smith" wrote in message > > news:wWKve.85$yA4.2445335@news.sisna.com... > >> Chris: > >> > >> You do not agree with any of his analysis? > >> > >> You do not think this is more of an isolation transformer than a > >> balun? > >> If not, how do you claim a "transmission line" quality/effect to it? > >> > >> And, you did notice an insertion loss from this "device", didn't you? > >> > >> John > >> > >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message > >> news:ftKve.9674$jX6.5269@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > >> > Be sure to print it out as it changes almost daily. Very > >> > strange, > >> > indeed. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer > >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > >> > \ \ / \ > >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > >> > . ( ) \ > >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > >> > | | | | \ '. > >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > >> > > >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > >> > > >> > "John Smith" wrote in message > >> > news:E0Bve.17$8L.379969@news.sisna.com... > >> >> A very interesting analysis of this design can be found at: > >> >> http://www.w8ji.com/balun_single_core_41_analysis.htm > >> >> > >> >> ... for those who have not yet seen it. > >> >> > >> >> John > >> >> > >> >> "Chris Trask" wrote in message > >> >> news:eTdue.7890$jX6.6278@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > >> >> > In recent days on the QRP-L mailing list, the following > >> >> > remarks > >> >> > were > >> >> > made by Tom Rauch, W8JI regarding the design of 4:1 current > >> >> > baluns: > >> >> > > >> >> > "...it is impossible to build a 4:1 ratio current balun that > >> >> > uses two 1:1 baluns on a single core." > >> >> > > >> >> > and: > >> >> > > >> >> > "It's well established any balun made up of series / parallel > >> >> > transmission lines requires different voltages from the start > >> >> > to finish of each transmission line. " > >> >> > > >> >> > I have devised and modeled a 4:1 current balun using two 1:1 > >> >> > baluns > >> >> > on > >> >> > a > >> >> > single core, and have tested a fully functional prototype. The > >> >> > design > >> >> > can > >> >> > be built without any core, if so desired. The full disclosure > >> >> > of > >> >> > this > >> >> > design with all theory, references, and test results can be > >> >> > obtained > >> >> > from my > >> >> > web page at: > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask/Trask4to1Balun.pdf > >> >> > > >> >> > The design proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the above > >> >> > statements to > >> >> > the contrary are, to put it mildly, gravely in error. > >> >> > > >> >> > Chris > >> >> > > >> >> > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > >> >> > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF > >> >> > Communications > >> >> > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > >> >> > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > >> >> > _ |/ Principal Engineer > >> >> > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > >> >> > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > >> >> > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > >> >> > \ \ / \ > >> >> > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > >> >> > . ( ) \ > >> >> > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > >> >> > | | | | \ '. > >> >> > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > >> >> > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > >> >> > > >> >> > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > Article: 214521 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:56:57 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119876188.153443.74740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c014b2$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > How can one distinguish between fact and fiction? The Scientific Method comes to mind. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214522 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:05:18 GMT > > Now, given that a "transmission line transformer," as distinct from a > conventional transformer built using transmission lines, does not > support flux in the ferrite; how is it that the ferrite makes the line > appear longer? > The ferrite makes the line look longer by way of it's permeability, but that's obvious and I think I'm not understanding your question correctly. Dye and Granberg cover that in their Motorola application notes as well as in the section on TLTs in their book "Radio Frequency Transistors: Principles and Practical Applications." They briefly mention in the book that the coupling takes place in the magnetic material only at low frequencies. This effectively makes the line(s)look longer as you are no longer functioning as a TLT but instead as a flux-coupled transformer, and the line length is now a function of the physical length of the conductors and the permeability of the material. In practice a thumbnail approximation is generally: L' = L x sqrt(u) > > Second, if this were to occur (through the design of a "transmission > line transformer" that was a voltage BalUn); what is the advantage of > longer lines? > It's a matter of what's practical. If you were to use very short lines along with a high permeability material such as Fair-Rite 73, you may encouter a region where the lines are too short to couple properly and the magnetic material is well above the ferroresonance frequency. And even when you do get into the flux-coupling môde, you still need to have sufficient line in order to obtain decent coupling at lower frequencies. So, you have to balance the two (line length and magnetic material) in order to obtain a wideband transformer that has consistent performance over the desired frequency range. I hope I've covered everything here adequately. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:oo6vb1dhqt02ap5ii53us4k6v7jnq3uiq5@4ax.com... > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:01:07 GMT, "Chris Trask" > wrote: > > >He also fails completely in understanding that > >the ferrite used in transmission line transformers is to improve the low > >frequency end by making the transmission line appear longer. > > Hi Chris, > > Now, given that a "transmission line transformer," as distinct from a > conventional transformer built using transmission lines, does not > support flux in the ferrite; how is it that the ferrite makes the line > appear longer? > > Second, if this were to occur (through the design of a "transmission > line transformer" that was a voltage BalUn); what is the advantage of > longer lines? > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 214523 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: <42bffa2b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:06:13 GMT Yes, as well as elsewhere. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42bffa2b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Chris Trask wrote: > > Tom is absolutely desparate to prove to the world that you cannot under > > any circumstances make a 4:1 current balun on a single core. > > Personalities aside, 4:1 single core Guanella baluns are covered > on pages 9-13 to 9-21 in "Transmission Line Transformers", by > Jerry Sevick. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214524 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:14:12 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119876188.153443.74740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42bfffec$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1119879472.894104.218720@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c018be_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> W8JI wrote: > Page 24 of third printing 2002. > Single core Guanella balun. Unfortunately, I don't have that edition. Is it four windings? 1---/////////---2 3---/////////---4 5---/////////---6 7---/////////---8 with (1 to 5) and (3 to 7) as the unbalanced input, (4 to 6) tied together, and (2) and (8) as the balanced output? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214525 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: <5IUve.10028$jX6.8696@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:13:05 GMT Whoa, let's reign back here a bit. The test was still for a 200-ohm load, but it was made asymmetric (150-ohms and 50-ohms) in order to accomodate the 50-ohm network analyzer. The 6dB loss is a result of the voltage at the test port being Vin/2, but the voltage at the other output port with the 150-ohm resistor is 3Vin/2, so there is no excessive loss through the balun. In actuality, there is less than 0.1dB of power loss in the prototype that I made. The test was made to determine if the balance was correct. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:cb7vb15dk654i4385ls5uth9aa4skg502m@4ax.com... > On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 05:16:08 GMT, "Chris Trask" > wrote: > > >The low frequency > >3dB point is around 600kHz and the high frequency 3dB point is beyond > >500MHz. > > Hi Chris, > > If this relates in some way to your published return loss > characteristic, then I have to offer that it is hardly representative > of the best of BalUns to offer. Sevick offers at least half a dozen > with scads less loss and operating flat to within less than a fraction > of a dB. > > Now by your tying in an implicit BW from 600KHz to 500MHz, this comes > too close to brightening your teeth and improving your sex life. > Within 3dB? Given your design, and it being voltage based, supporting > flux through currents driving the core, 3dB would be a hell of a dummy > load and hardly a crowning achievement. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 214526 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: 27 Jun 2005 10:19:19 -0500 Message-ID: <871x6n25fs.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <2rGdncP__JZdOSPfRVn-1w@crocker.com> <8764vz27u8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> >9. no thimbles on the guy wire connections. Wonder how long before those >10. judging by how the loop of guy wire through the turnbuckle is still >fairly round, I'd bet the tension on the guy wires is too slack. Should >have 400 lbs per guy for 3/16" EHS on Rohn 25. >11. no safety wire through the turnbuckles. got cut off... 9. no thimbles on the guy wire connections. Wonder how long before those guy wire loops crimp and break. With such a small antenna load, I don't think a thrust bearing is really needed. Tor N4OGW Article: 214527 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:33:55 GMT On 27 Jun 2005 08:02:47 -0700, "Rick Scott" wrote: >Hmm Well considering he is the former AB7SL it wouldnt surprise me this >is >his creation. If you do a net search on good ole charlie you will find >lots of things. > >Keep your head down. ohhhh, that guy. he used to promote w9inn's antennas, much to w9inn's irritation... bob k5qwg Article: 214528 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:35:19 GMT > > 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and > secondary? > No. It is a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core. I can make it work equally well by making the two transformers on separate cores. I can also make it with a pair of equal length coaxial cables. Both of these realisations defeat his claim that it is a 2:1 transformer. But at the same time, neither of them answer his claim that it is impossible to make a 4:1 current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers. > > 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your > transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities > across the *same* end? > This isn't even a gray area. We're making a BALUN, in other words a transformer that has an UNbalanced port and a BALanced port, and in this case fully meeting the definition of a current balun. If we were to accept the above statement, then we would have no choice except to conclude that in no circumstances could we make a BALUN with transmission line transformers because in all cases of BALUNs one port is fed unbalanced. Making transmission line transformers is not difficult, although Tom is making it appear as though it's some sort of great mustery. For a length of transmission line that is sufficiently short with respect to wavelength, meaning less than an eighth of a wavelength in practice, the following rules are observed: 1. The voltage across the one conductor is equal to the voltage of the other conductor, both in magnitude and in phase. 2. The current in the one conductor is equal in magnitude but oppostite in phase to the current in the other conductor. These basic understandings of transmission line transformers are well established and understood. Gary Breed brought the concept down to the essentials in: Breed, Gary, "Transmission Line Transformer Basics," Applied Microwave & Wireless, Vol. 10, No. 4, May 1998, p. 60. It all comes down to a difference between what is known by way of established theory and practice versus trying to convince people that everything we know is wrong. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote in message news:wV5GouJgO7vCFAMG@ifwtech.co.uk... > Chris Trask wrote: > > > > It's not a matter of whether I disagree with him or not. It's a matter > >of him standing on a cybersoapbox and declaring to the world in numerous > >ways that such a thing cannot work and that only his analysis of how it can > >and cannot work is valid. He can't deny that he claimed that it was > >impossible, so now he has to prove that the solution cannot possibly work > >the way that he knows that it cannot work. Whatever. > > > > Please skip the personal rhetoric, and tell us how you respond to his > two main technical points about your transformer: > > 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and > secondary? > > 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your > transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities > across the *same* end? > > > -- > 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek Article: 214529 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: spam.for.the@buerotiger.de (Peter Lemken) Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: 27 Jun 2005 16:09:45 GMT Message-ID: <3iamm9Fkl5upU1@individual.net> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> In rec.radio.amateur.dx Rick Scott wrote: > Hmm Well considering he is the former AB7SL *That* explains a lot. Peter Lemken DF5JT Berlin -- Was schlechten Geschmack so berauschend macht, ist die aristokratische Wonne der Verärgerung. -- Charles Baudelaire Article: 214530 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 09:24:06 -0700 Chris: Well, I certainly can see that your claim it is two 1:1 baluns on a single core is technically accurate--the primaries are in parallel and their secondaries are in series... that seems clear enough that it cannot be argued. I can't imagine all NOT to be in agreement on this point. However, with no electrical connection (transmission line) existing between primary/secondary, and the voltage and current only conducted between these windings by a magnetic flux--I CAN'T see how a "true" balun can be argued, clearly--as opposed to "rf transformer." But, I am giving this thought--as I am sure are others... I never thought about the humble "balun"/"rf transformer" in some of these ways before--possibly I am not alone... either and anyway, I enjoy the thinking you have established here... John "Chris Trask" wrote in message news:X0Vve.10032$jX6.7297@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > >> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and >> secondary? >> > > No. It is a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core. I can make > it > work equally well by making the two transformers on separate cores. I > can > also make it with a pair of equal length coaxial cables. Both of > these > realisations defeat his claim that it is a 2:1 transformer. But at > the same > time, neither of them answer his claim that it is impossible to make a > 4:1 > current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers. > >> >> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your >> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities >> across the *same* end? >> > > This isn't even a gray area. We're making a BALUN, in other words > a > transformer that has an UNbalanced port and a BALanced port, and in > this > case fully meeting the definition of a current balun. If we were to > accept > the above statement, then we would have no choice except to conclude > that in > no circumstances could we make a BALUN with transmission line > transformers > because in all cases of BALUNs one port is fed unbalanced. > > Making transmission line transformers is not difficult, although > Tom is > making it appear as though it's some sort of great mustery. For a > length of > transmission line that is sufficiently short with respect to > wavelength, > meaning less than an eighth of a wavelength in practice, the following > rules > are observed: > > 1. The voltage across the one conductor is equal to the > voltage of the other conductor, both in magnitude and > in phase. > > 2. The current in the one conductor is equal in magnitude > but oppostite in phase to the current in the other > conductor. > > These basic understandings of transmission line transformers are well > established and understood. Gary Breed brought the concept down to > the > essentials in: > > Breed, Gary, "Transmission Line Transformer Basics," Applied > Microwave & Wireless, Vol. 10, No. 4, May 1998, p. 60. > > It all comes down to a difference between what is known by way of > established theory and practice versus trying to convince people that > everything we know is wrong. > > Chris > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > _ |/ Principal Engineer > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > \ \ / \ > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > . ( ) \ > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote in message > news:wV5GouJgO7vCFAMG@ifwtech.co.uk... >> Chris Trask wrote: >> > >> > It's not a matter of whether I disagree with him or not. It's a > matter >> >of him standing on a cybersoapbox and declaring to the world in >> >numerous >> >ways that such a thing cannot work and that only his analysis of how >> >it > can >> >and cannot work is valid. He can't deny that he claimed that it was >> >impossible, so now he has to prove that the solution cannot possibly >> >work >> >the way that he knows that it cannot work. Whatever. >> > >> >> Please skip the personal rhetoric, and tell us how you respond to his >> two main technical points about your transformer: >> >> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and >> secondary? >> >> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your >> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities >> across the *same* end? >> >> >> -- >> 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) >> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek > > Article: 214531 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Henry Kolesnik" Subject: test Message-ID: <_4Wve.336$U61.242@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:47:54 GMT I've tried to posts to the "2 greatest antennas..." and haven't seen either?? -- 73 Hank WD5JFR Article: 214532 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:44:33 -0700 Ian: Yes, you inject a VERY GOOD point here--I realize my "definitions" are a bit blurry. And, indeed, scanning the internet suggests there are some others out there suffering the same. What can we all agree are proper definitions to balun, "rf transformer", etc... I admit I have not ever set up a solid foundation of knowledge here--just used ideas, plans, etc which others have made available... and referred to them by the names given... this leaves me at a loss while I investigate. John "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote in message news:KpaIX6bQRDwCFAR4@ifwtech.co.uk... > Chris Trask wrote: >>> >>> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and >>> secondary? >>> >> >> No. It is a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core. I can >> make it >>work equally well by making the two transformers on separate cores. I >>can >>also make it with a pair of equal length coaxial cables. Both of >>these >>realisations defeat his claim that it is a 2:1 transformer. > > If it were a mains or an audio transformer with four identical > windings, two primaries in parallel and two secondaries in series, > most people wouldn't hesitate to call that a "2:1" (voltage ratio) > transformer. You could also choose to call it "a pair of 1:1 > transformers on a single core" and that would also be valid, though I > don't believe that would be most people's preferred description. > > The same output voltages can *also* be obtained by a different method, > by appropriately wiring two completely separate 1:1 transformers, but > that doesn't affect the way we should think about the transformer on a > single core. > > >>But at the same >>time, neither of them answer his claim that it is impossible to make a >>4:1 >>current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers. >> > Agreed. > > >>> >>> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your >>> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite >>> polarities >>> across the *same* end? >>> >> >> This isn't even a gray area. We're making a BALUN, in other words >> a >>transformer that has an UNbalanced port and a BALanced port, and in >>this >>case fully meeting the definition of a current balun. If we were to >>accept >>the above statement, then we would have no choice except to conclude >>that in >>no circumstances could we make a BALUN with transmission line >>transformers >>because in all cases of BALUNs one port is fed unbalanced. >> > I was talking about TLT's, not baluns. Some baluns are TLT but others > are not. > > >> Making transmission line transformers is not difficult, although >> Tom is >>making it appear as though it's some sort of great mustery. For a >>length of >>transmission line that is sufficiently short with respect to >>wavelength, >>meaning less than an eighth of a wavelength in practice, the following >>rules >>are observed: >> >> 1. The voltage across the one conductor is equal to the >> voltage of the other conductor, both in magnitude and >> in phase. >> >> 2. The current in the one conductor is equal in magnitude >> but oppostite in phase to the current in the other >> conductor. >> >>These basic understandings of transmission line transformers are well >>established and understood. Gary Breed brought the concept down to >>the >>essentials in: >> >> Breed, Gary, "Transmission Line Transformer Basics," Applied >> Microwave & Wireless, Vol. 10, No. 4, May 1998, p. 60. >> >>It all comes down to a difference between what is known by way of >>established theory and practice versus trying to convince people that >>everything we know is wrong. > > > Sorry, but it all seems to come down to the definitions of "current > balun" and "transmission line transformer" that one chooses to adopt. > Rather than referencing those definitions, please can you quote them > here, in full? > > > -- > 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek Article: 214533 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "W8JI" Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: 27 Jun 2005 05:13:10 -0700 Message-ID: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: Please don't consider Chris as speaking for me, or accurately presenting everything I said. We all know how easy it is to lift selective portions of long exchanges and make things sound any way we like. The original topic was Sevik's 4:1 balun on a single core, where that balun is made up of two 1:1 ratio choke baluns with parallel inputs and series outputs. The imputs are excited in a transmission line mode (differentially) and the outputs in series. The balun cores provide only ground isolation through common mode impedance. I have a similar balun built by MFJ, and it has terrible balance. It actually is an offset voltage voltage balun. Early on I specifically excluded transformer-type baluns. I think the problem is Chris thinks we can feed a transmission line end-to-end on a single conductor and contain energy within the line area. As far as I see, there is nothing causing the line to operate in a TEM mode, but it behaves only as a simple 1:1 transformer. I beleive this is at the root of the poor efficiency and poor SWR bandwidth of Chris' "balun". The bandwidth problem would be caused because a transmission line in TEM mode would have distributed capacitance cancelling series inductance of the leads, a transformer winding does not. This also gives rise to the distributed capacitance tending to pull the load side to the voltage balance of the source winding, causing a problem with high frequency balance. The isolation transformer method has the advantage of much better low frequency isolation and allowing a single core, but falls on its face for SWR response, power handling for a given core size, and high frequency balance and common mode isolation. I think the real argument or disagreement is if the lines in a parallel or coaxial wound primary and secondary like Chris used are in TEM mode, or simply acting as a transformer. My contention is it is a transformer, and those who think any two parallel or concentric conductors when fed start-to-finish or tend-to-end on one conductor forces a TEM mode are not viewing the system correctly. It will be interesting to see what others think. I have a partial analysis on my web site in a 4:1 balun analysis , and I'll be adding more information to that as time permits. Please, just the technical facts. I'll speak for myself. 73 Tom Article: 214534 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "redhat" Subject: Re: wire antenna Date: 27 Jun 2005 05:17:52 -0700 Message-ID: <1119874672.517199.160770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1119388371.513289.55030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> there are two wires one for feed the other for ground, should they have the same length? http://www.geocities.com/aezzat3/monopole.jpg Article: 214535 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dave" References: <1119388371.513289.55030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1119874672.517199.160770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: wire antenna Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 12:31:48 -0000 Message-ID: monopole? you are looking at the end of a piece of coax cable that has been trimmed to show the internal structure. "redhat" wrote in message news:1119874672.517199.160770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > there are two wires one for feed the other for ground, should they have > the same length? > http://www.geocities.com/aezzat3/monopole.jpg > Article: 214536 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "redhat" Subject: Re: wire antenna Date: 27 Jun 2005 05:42:02 -0700 Message-ID: <1119876122.864916.190150@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1119388371.513289.55030@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> yes, can't i use a coax as an antenna by trimming its end at the calculated length lamda=C/f where for example length of wire = 1/8 lamda Article: 214537 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "W8JI" Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: 27 Jun 2005 05:43:08 -0700 Message-ID: <1119876188.153443.74740@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: By the way, the reason I think this issue is important is Sevik claims two transmission line baluns (excited as real transmission lines, not as isolation transformers) makes a good single core current balun. Not only are people doing that for themselves, commercial people (like MFJ) have copied the idea. They then advertise a single corev TL 4:1 balun as a "4:1 current balun" to consumers. It seems once something gets into print, it is accepted as fact even when incorrect. I'd like to clarify Sevik used transmission line mode, not transformer mode coupling, in his single core 4:1 current balun. My contention is it is impossible to build a 4:1 current balun on a single core unless it is a primary-secondary isolation transformer, and an isolation transformer would be a very limited performance balun compared to a properly constructed transmission line balun. 73 Tom Article: 214538 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <1rttb1po7mrncf72v5v2kf8f8pmco6b5c6@4ax.com> <7XIk4+Gkx6vCFA8D@ifwtech.co.uk> Subject: Re: Choke baluns again Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:47:41 -0400 > > > >Apparently it makes more difference to me than it does to you. > >I don't want it digging into the tree branches. > > That's a fair point. The sag in a dipole supported only at the ends is > very sensitive to the suspended weight in the middle. And if the end > supports are trees, the problem can become extreme. ******************* Yes, I use trees whenever possible - and install the antenna with a bow-and-arrow ************************ > > >Nothing wrong with your view - its probably a better-informed view than > >mine - but I'll still use balanced line and I still think baluns are too > >heavy. I'm just hard-headed that way. :-) > > > If sag is a problem, don't use 300 or 450-ohm ladder line. In terms of > weight and windage, it is a very bad solution. A much more practical > solution is to make your own ultra-lightweight parallel line. The wire > can be much thinner than the main antenna, and you can use a spacing of > several inches with the absolute minimum number of ultra-lightweight > spreaders. ******************************* Usually 300-ohm twin lead is light enough *************************** > > > But more important than that, please stop calling it "balanced line". > Somehow we have got into the habit of kidding ourselves that > parallel-wire line is balanced line. It isn't! ***************************** When I use a balun to feed it - then its balanced line - and that's what I was talking about. But I see your point Henceforth I dub it "twinlead" ******************************* > > Parallel line does NOT automatically balance itself. It will cheerfully > allow unequal currents on the two wires. That's the same as saying it > will cheerfully support an unwanted common-mode current (same magnitude > and same direction on both wires) in addition to the wanted > equal-and-opposite currents. > > So parallel line will NOT be balanced line - not until you have done > something to MAKE it balanced. ************ (Like using a BalUn ?? ********************* > > Thanks for your input Article: 214539 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:19:14 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0kb4s0hdg1d9@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <11bv2l61vm5red4@corp.supernews.com> Hi Mac, We had certain constraints to work around such as available guy anchors vs. distance of tower from shack since it is a VHF installation I needed to be as close to the shack as possible for transmission line loss considerations even with 9914. Even though we have over 40 acres the tower needed to be close as hardline was not an option. I am in the country here so there is little building regulation to adhere to or approvals of construction projects. We could and still might add concreted guy anchors although they would give more interference for the mower and foot traffic in the back and front yards and that was a concern of the xyl. The tower has a very low wind load on it with those 2 small lightweight VHF antennas. I know it is very common for hams to overload their "properly engineered and maintained " towers. As far as mating 2 different brands of towers I was on a budget and had access to 45ft of what has been called "Sears" brand and 40 ft of 25g. We altered our design from an 85ft erection down to 75ft as a safety precaution during and after the installation. Yes trees do sway but as the photos show they don't sway where the guys are attached. Our insurance man has added the structure to our list of covered items in our policy so evidently it was OK for coverage. I suppose that no matter how we installed this tower and I so naively posted a photo link there are some that will berate it. TY for your civility however..seriously it was quite refreshing..... -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:11bv2l61vm5red4@corp.supernews.com... > Dear Charlie AD5TH: > You have performed a great service by presenting the results of K5HGR's > engineering and your work. Its educational value is almost beyond > calculation. > > In this part of the world one would need to have a licensed > professional > engineer (PE) sign off on such a structure. Clearly, down your way one > has > freedom to innovate without concern for issues that we are required to > consider. > > My goodness. I recently completed a task of a tall tower in a > populated > area where I had to have design work from the factory's PE, have that work > reviewed by a local PE, get permission from the local municipality, have > the airport sign off on the height, take soil samples so that a safe > foundation could be designed, watch the fabrication of the foundation to > make sure that it was done right, and on and on... Course, we do get > serious wind up here and it just would not do to kill someone with a tower > collapse. > > You sure are fortunate not to have all of the things we have to put up > with and not even have to worry about wind. Do keep us posted. The whole > story has yet to be revealed. > > 73 Mac N8TT > -- > J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. > Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net > > Article: 214540 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:20:09 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0kci28ipar09@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <42bff5c9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Good point...guess I'll have enough time then for VUCC!!! -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42bff5c9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Ed wrote: >> As far as ANY tower can be blown down.... not really true for a properly >> engineered and maintained structure. > > I saw on The National Geographic Channel yesterday where > all towers left standing will be blown down when our sun > explodes about five billion years from now. :-) > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption > =---- Article: 214541 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:20:46 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0kdrrp6b2s35@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <42bff5c9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Thanks for your tips Rob... -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rob" wrote in message news:BPTve.3202$mK5.183751@news20.bellglobal.com... > Charlie, > > It's very obvious a lot of hard work went into that project, this makes it > even harder to face criticism, but don't lose sight of the fact that it's > constructive (even though it's deteriorating rapidly.) There really are > numerous problems with your installation, and some will inevitably lead to > catastrophic failure and potential loss of life. > > Be careful around that thing until you can fix it up. In the least, > install dedicated anchor points set in a sizeable concrete base, shorten > your top mast and get a thrust bearing up there. Put at least 1/3 of your > rotatable mast below the bearing. > > This is by no means a complete list, but I think the majority of readers > will agree it's a good place to start. > > Rob > > Article: 214542 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:21:41 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0kfhlli89q66@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <42C00F2D.1113C4DC@gmail.com> I moved to Mississippi dumb-ass...I knew nothing about your alleged "lawyers". BIOYA!!! -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "R. Scott" wrote in message news:42C00F2D.1113C4DC@gmail.com... > Well considering he is the former AB7SL it wouldnt surprise me this is > his creation. If you do a net search on good ole charlie you will find > lots of things. Including his imitating a couple of amateurs on the > newsgroups to promote his spamming of the Newsgroups with the Antenna > sales. I understand that 2 of them were really unhappy about that and > were getting lawyers and soon after that charles disappeared from the > net as AB7SL and now he has reappeared. > > Charles charles, when you going to learn. > -- > Rick > Everett, Washington > Remove THREAD to reply. Article: 214543 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:22:23 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Double posting Rick? I see you still are a Usenet novice but still always good for a chuckle. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Hmm Well considering he is the former AB7SL it wouldnt surprise me this > is > his creation. If you do a net search on good ole charlie you will find > lots of things. > > Keep your head down. > Article: 214544 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:41:34 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0lksqsr75r9c@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <42C00F2D.1113C4DC@gmail.com> <11c0kfhlli89q66@news.supernews.com> <1119901033.557839.34900@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Yes one tends to "disappear" off Usenet when they move residences and don't get back online for a year or so. Your powers of reason and deduction leave a lot to be desired. But anyway have a great day and work on that logic processing - OK? -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119901033.557839.34900@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Still the same charlie. And I dont think I said anything about me > getting a lawyer, Im just relaying what was said to me from a Gentleman > who's name and ham radio callsign was used on USNET to bolster your > comments. Funnything was, he didnt even use the internet. He was very > curious about where it came from and wanted to know where. I pointed > to Cable one to let them tell him. > > Funny you disappeard off the internet shortly after that. > > Coincidence I guess. > > > Good luck with that tower of yours. Im sure we will be reading much > more about it some day soon. > Article: 214545 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 14:58:07 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0mjv6hdobe41@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> <1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Yeah back in the early 80's. ----------------------------- Path: sn-us!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-09!sn-xit-14!supernews.com!postnews.google.com!z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail From: "Rick Scott" Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: 27 Jun 2005 12:38:51 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.76.32.144 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Trace: posting.google.com 1119901136 4299 127.0.0.1 (27 Jun 2005 19:38:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:38:56 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> User-Agent: G2/0.2 Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com Injection-Info: z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com; posting-host=130.76.32.144; posting-account=-YuqBA0AAADEWAY3wYFR3S9BTZUy0-aa Xref: sn-us alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:44728 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:243736 rec.radio.amateur.dx:31830 ------------------------------ -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > Charlie wrote: >> Double posting Rick? I see you still are a Usenet novice but still always >> good for a chuckle. >> > > Nope, canceled the 1st one, but appearently your ISP doesnt accept > cancels. > > If you say Im a novice, then thats your opinion. > > Say did you ever learn what headers were and what they can tell you. > Article: 214546 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:10:06 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0naaqk1lc3c7@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> <1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Rick here is a cut and paste from your QRZ page for your callsign of N7HJ Ricky J Scott 5 77th Pl SW Everett WA 98203 USA RickN7HJ@gmail.com HERE is the snippet.... -- "The only contest I enter is Sweepsteaks (Both CW and SSB) so look for me there. " --- Do you prefer New York Strip or Black Angus Rib Eye? Besides the logic processing you also need to work on spelling too...how old are you.. 9? And don't say it's a TYPO cuz it AIN'T! Like I said always good for a chuckle.... At least you can spell CW and SSB correctly....how long did those take to learn Ricky? -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > > Charlie wrote: >> Double posting Rick? I see you still are a Usenet novice but still always >> good for a chuckle. >> > > Nope, canceled the 1st one, but appearently your ISP doesnt accept > cancels. > > If you say Im a novice, then thats your opinion. > > Say did you ever learn what headers were and what they can tell you. > Article: 214547 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Chris Trask" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: <7eZve.10295$hK3.9725@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 20:22:27 GMT > > However, with no electrical connection (transmission line) existing > between primary/secondary, and the voltage and current only conducted > between these windings by a magnetic flux--I CAN'T see how a "true" > balun can be argued, clearly--as opposed to "rf transformer." > I left out the word "current". My balun is a proper current balun as it meets the formal definition, which is that it maintains currents at the output terminals that are equal in magnitude and opposite in phase regardless of potentials at the output terminals with respect to the ground connection on the unbalanced side. You can find this definition in less strict form in the ARRL handbook, such as 1991 pages 16.8-16.9. The single core Guanella 4:1 current balun meets this definition but only for floating loads. Anything other than that and the two transformers need to be on separate cores. Chris ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications / extinct stuff, anyhow? / \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY _ |/ Principal Engineer oo\ Sonoran Radio Research (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 \ \ / \ \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 . ( ) \ '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask c__; c__; '-..'>.__ Graphics by Loek Frederiks "John Smith" wrote in message news:VKVve.3$lw.195683@news.sisna.com... > Chris: > > Well, I certainly can see that your claim it is two 1:1 baluns on a > single core is technically accurate--the primaries are in parallel and > their secondaries are in series... that seems clear enough that it > cannot be argued. I can't imagine all NOT to be in agreement on this > point. > > However, with no electrical connection (transmission line) existing > between primary/secondary, and the voltage and current only conducted > between these windings by a magnetic flux--I CAN'T see how a "true" > balun can be argued, clearly--as opposed to "rf transformer." > > But, I am giving this thought--as I am sure are others... I never > thought about the humble "balun"/"rf transformer" in some of these ways > before--possibly I am not alone... either and anyway, I enjoy the > thinking you have established here... > > John > > "Chris Trask" wrote in message > news:X0Vve.10032$jX6.7297@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > > > >> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and > >> secondary? > >> > > > > No. It is a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core. I can make > > it > > work equally well by making the two transformers on separate cores. I > > can > > also make it with a pair of equal length coaxial cables. Both of > > these > > realisations defeat his claim that it is a 2:1 transformer. But at > > the same > > time, neither of them answer his claim that it is impossible to make a > > 4:1 > > current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers. > > > >> > >> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your > >> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities > >> across the *same* end? > >> > > > > This isn't even a gray area. We're making a BALUN, in other words > > a > > transformer that has an UNbalanced port and a BALanced port, and in > > this > > case fully meeting the definition of a current balun. If we were to > > accept > > the above statement, then we would have no choice except to conclude > > that in > > no circumstances could we make a BALUN with transmission line > > transformers > > because in all cases of BALUNs one port is fed unbalanced. > > > > Making transmission line transformers is not difficult, although > > Tom is > > making it appear as though it's some sort of great mustery. For a > > length of > > transmission line that is sufficiently short with respect to > > wavelength, > > meaning less than an eighth of a wavelength in practice, the following > > rules > > are observed: > > > > 1. The voltage across the one conductor is equal to the > > voltage of the other conductor, both in magnitude and > > in phase. > > > > 2. The current in the one conductor is equal in magnitude > > but oppostite in phase to the current in the other > > conductor. > > > > These basic understandings of transmission line transformers are well > > established and understood. Gary Breed brought the concept down to > > the > > essentials in: > > > > Breed, Gary, "Transmission Line Transformer Basics," Applied > > Microwave & Wireless, Vol. 10, No. 4, May 1998, p. 60. > > > > It all comes down to a difference between what is known by way of > > established theory and practice versus trying to convince people that > > everything we know is wrong. > > > > Chris > > > > ,----------------------. High Performance Mixers and > > / What's all this \ Amplifiers for RF Communications > > / extinct stuff, anyhow? / > > \ _______,--------------' Chris Trask / N7ZWY > > _ |/ Principal Engineer > > oo\ Sonoran Radio Research > > (__)\ _ P.O. Box 25240 > > \ \ .' `. Tempe, Arizona 85285-5240 > > \ \ / \ > > \ '" \ IEEE Senior Member #40274515 > > . ( ) \ > > '-| )__| :. \ Email: christrask@earthlink.net > > | | | | \ '. http://www.home.earthlink.net/~christrask > > c__; c__; '-..'>.__ > > > > Graphics by Loek Frederiks > > > > "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote in message > > news:wV5GouJgO7vCFAMG@ifwtech.co.uk... > >> Chris Trask wrote: > >> > > >> > It's not a matter of whether I disagree with him or not. It's a > > matter > >> >of him standing on a cybersoapbox and declaring to the world in > >> >numerous > >> >ways that such a thing cannot work and that only his analysis of how > >> >it > > can > >> >and cannot work is valid. He can't deny that he claimed that it was > >> >impossible, so now he has to prove that the solution cannot possibly > >> >work > >> >the way that he knows that it cannot work. Whatever. > >> > > >> > >> Please skip the personal rhetoric, and tell us how you respond to his > >> two main technical points about your transformer: > >> > >> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and > >> secondary? > >> > >> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your > >> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite polarities > >> across the *same* end? > >> > >> > >> -- > >> 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) > >> http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek > > > > > Article: 214548 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 11:49:39 -0700 Ian: Here is a rather good paper on TLT's, this should be a definition acceptable to most... http://www.highfrequencyelectronics.com/Archives/Feb04/HFE0204_Sevick.pdf John "Ian White GM3SEK" wrote in message news:KpaIX6bQRDwCFAR4@ifwtech.co.uk... > Chris Trask wrote: >>> >>> 1. That it is simply a 2:1 transformer with an isolated primary and >>> secondary? >>> >> >> No. It is a pair of 1:1 transformers on a single core. I can >> make it >>work equally well by making the two transformers on separate cores. I >>can >>also make it with a pair of equal length coaxial cables. Both of >>these >>realisations defeat his claim that it is a 2:1 transformer. > > If it were a mains or an audio transformer with four identical > windings, two primaries in parallel and two secondaries in series, > most people wouldn't hesitate to call that a "2:1" (voltage ratio) > transformer. You could also choose to call it "a pair of 1:1 > transformers on a single core" and that would also be valid, though I > don't believe that would be most people's preferred description. > > The same output voltages can *also* be obtained by a different method, > by appropriately wiring two completely separate 1:1 transformers, but > that doesn't affect the way we should think about the transformer on a > single core. > > >>But at the same >>time, neither of them answer his claim that it is impossible to make a >>4:1 >>current balun on a single core with a pair of 1:1 transformers. >> > Agreed. > > >>> >>> 2. That it is not a true transmission line transformer, because your >>> transmission-line windings are not being fed with opposite >>> polarities >>> across the *same* end? >>> >> >> This isn't even a gray area. We're making a BALUN, in other words >> a >>transformer that has an UNbalanced port and a BALanced port, and in >>this >>case fully meeting the definition of a current balun. If we were to >>accept >>the above statement, then we would have no choice except to conclude >>that in >>no circumstances could we make a BALUN with transmission line >>transformers >>because in all cases of BALUNs one port is fed unbalanced. >> > I was talking about TLT's, not baluns. Some baluns are TLT but others > are not. > > >> Making transmission line transformers is not difficult, although >> Tom is >>making it appear as though it's some sort of great mustery. For a >>length of >>transmission line that is sufficiently short with respect to >>wavelength, >>meaning less than an eighth of a wavelength in practice, the following >>rules >>are observed: >> >> 1. The voltage across the one conductor is equal to the >> voltage of the other conductor, both in magnitude and >> in phase. >> >> 2. The current in the one conductor is equal in magnitude >> but oppostite in phase to the current in the other >> conductor. >> >>These basic understandings of transmission line transformers are well >>established and understood. Gary Breed brought the concept down to >>the >>essentials in: >> >> Breed, Gary, "Transmission Line Transformer Basics," Applied >> Microwave & Wireless, Vol. 10, No. 4, May 1998, p. 60. >> >>It all comes down to a difference between what is known by way of >>established theory and practice versus trying to convince people that >>everything we know is wrong. > > > Sorry, but it all seems to come down to the definitions of "current > balun" and "transmission line transformer" that one chooses to adopt. > Rather than referencing those definitions, please can you quote them > here, in full? > > > -- > 73 from Ian GM3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB) > http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek Article: 214549 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Attic antenna: rotator upside-down work? Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 07:39:31 -0400 Message-ID: References: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 11:01:20 -0400, Bob B. wrote: >Hello... > >Will an antenna rotator like a Radio Shack or Channel Master work if >hung upside-down from a roof beam, or should I try to come up with a >way to secure it to the attic floor? > >I know rotators are designed to handle a certain weight, but I can't >guess at what they'd do with a "negative" weight... > >The antenna I'm looking to rotate is a Channel Master 8-bay bowtie. >(CM4228) > >Thanks, >-Bob- >N1GYL Chances are that the bearings are created for a right-side up force and there will be insufficient bearings for upside down operation. If your attic is like mine, you may consider getting a board to cross a couple of rafters and mount the rotor on the floor from that. Good luck. 73 N4PGW Buck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214550 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Blue Dawg" Subject: Re: Solarcon A99 Date: 27 Jun 2005 06:35:50 -0700 Message-ID: <1119879350.466016.30780@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <313030303837383542BEA00A47@zetnet.co.uk> Not for certain but don't you put a U-connector or a circle connector crimped onto the braid of the coax and attach it with a screw and do the same with the center braid? Article: 214551 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark Subject: Re: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:04:43 +0200 Message-ID: <0op0c1d8g1l9d4nku27v1nt8oroal2i1u1@4ax.com> References: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:40:50 -0400, "Hal Rosser" wrote: >This may well be an application for a passive repeater. >2 yagis back to back >one aimed at the nearest tower >the other aimed at your house. >mount it high That sounds like a good idea, should I mount the antenna's at a 90o angle relative to each other, with the receiving antenna mounted to look in the vertical plane (I know where the base station is). And the transmitting antenna to give as much horizontal plane coverage as possible, angled down to the areas I wish to receive telephone coverage? Can I expect good results? Article: 214552 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:08:41 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0qob8m7bj13c@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> <1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <11c0naaqk1lc3c7@news.supernews.com> <1119903713.469380.321450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Hahahahaha! OH YEAH sweepstakes - and - sweepsteaks Are just simple typos......give it a f__king rest moron... -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119903713.469380.321450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > Charlie wrote: >> Rick here is a cut and paste from your QRZ page for your callsign of N7HJ >> Ricky J Scott >> 5 77th Pl SW >> Everett WA 98203 >> USA >> RickN7HJ@gmail.com >> >> HERE is the snippet.... >> -- >> "The only contest I enter is Sweepsteaks (Both CW and SSB) so look for me >> there. " >> --- >> Do you prefer New York Strip or Black Angus Rib Eye? >> Besides the logic processing you also need to work on spelling too...how >> old >> are you.. 9? >> And don't say it's a TYPO cuz it AIN'T! Like I said always good for a >> chuckle.... >> >> >> At least you can spell CW and SSB correctly....how long did those take to >> learn Ricky? >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net > > > Ahhh Standard comeback there Charlie. Dive right to a Typo anywhere > you can find it and try to deflect from the truth. > > Nice try. > > Dont worry, I wont bother you again, as your still they same ole > charlie. > > Just dont start promoting your Affiliate programs again and dont forge > headers again and you will not ever hear from me. > > Good luck with your tower, but as a matter of principle, you might want > to save up a bit of rainy day cash for when the Insurance issue pops > up. > > Let us know how the Power Company likes your Modification to thier > Power Pole. Ours issue tickets for Nails in them. Wonder how a tower > harness will go over. > Article: 214553 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 16:07:24 -0500 Message-ID: <11c0qlublp5rre3@news.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <6_6dncbhW4LOlCLfRVn-oA@crocker.com> <11bu5akmpsjhe0c@news.supernews.com> <11busgftdv3a821@news.supernews.com> <1119884567.446695.145080@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c0kgsdgqp5v93@news.supernews.com> <1119901131.237561.56420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <11c0mjv6hdobe41@news.supernews.com> <1119903017.175218.115100@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> You make no sense... Who pissed in your Cheerios this morning anyway Ricky? -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Rick Scott" wrote in message news:1119903017.175218.115100@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > Charlie wrote: >> Yeah back in the early 80's. >> ----------------------------- >> Path: > > > Oh Really, So you called me a liar that you knew nothing about headers. > So, now your saying that you were lying about that whole affair. Let > me refresh you memory. So you say your an early 80s Internet user ... > But in 2002 you claim to not know what the INTERNET was. And using an > At the IRS.GOV addy wasnt too bright either. Some from the 80s > Internet would know that. SO what gov or non profit system were you > using back in the "80s" > > > From: "CJ" > Newsgroups: > rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy,rec.radio.amateur.equipment > Subject: Re: W9INN Antennas Page now ONLINE! > Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 09:56:11 -0700 > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com > Message-ID: > References: <41749911.0205060920.26543c8e@posting.google.com> > <3CD7D5FD.79BF0A46@umich.edu> > > <3CD8245D.93330A9C@netscape.net> > <41749911.0205071337.3ca96b4c@posting.google.com> > <3CD93818.1DC213B3@yahoo.com> > X-Priority: 3 > X-MSMail-Priority: Normal > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 > X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 > X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com > Lines: 22 > > Hello Rick, > I have no idea what in the world you are talking about...what are > "headers" anyway? > Lord bless you and your family.....hope to catch you on the air one of > these days. > Here is the link you asked about Rick.... > --------------- > Cushcraft R7 / R7000 "black box" photo w/component values, schematic, > trap illustration, high SWR fix tips, > and R7 / R7000 assembly -and- installation manuals all downloadable at > this link..... > > http://www.ab7sl.com/index.html?row1col2=r7.html > ---------------- > > 73 / DX de Charles > AB7SL - Ham Radio Pages > www.ab7sl.com > Article: 214554 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "WdntULik2no" References: <_4Wve.336$U61.242@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: test Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 21:41:15 -0700 Message-ID: <8p3qnpo7oeno7ks.270620052141@kirk> NOW THIS IS A REAL TEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA! "Henry Kolesnik" wrote in message news:_4Wve.336$U61.242@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com... > I've tried to posts to the "2 greatest antennas..." and haven't seen > either?? > > -- > > 73 > Hank WD5JFR > > Article: 214555 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "James F. Mayer" References: Subject: Re: 6 Meter Antenna Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:22:28 GMT "Dave "Doc" Corio" wrote in message news:zKOdnZGzD71RL13fRVn-rQ@adelphia.com... > James F. Mayer wrote: >> What is a good commercially available antenna for 6 meters. I have >> an RT-70A/GRC that I'm getting ready to power up in a couple of weeks. >> Would my discone suffice? > That might depend on what you want to do on 6. Local repeaters? Meteor > Scatter? SSB DX? I use a Cushcraft vertical (R6??), but I don't operate a > whole lot on 6. I have done some Meteor Scatter with it, some SSB, and > some local repeaters. Post what your goals are for 6, and no doubt you'll > get a big response!! > > 73 > Dave > N0HNJ I'm limited to FM simplex since the RT70 only outputs FM and has no offset that I'm aware of. Article: 214566 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Lancer Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:15:18 GMT On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:13:35 GMT, james wrote: >On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:31:58 GMT, Lancer wrote: > >>To have the measured SWR change with coax length, means you have >>current flowing on the outside of the coax. Your coax then becomes >>part of the antenna, so changing its length is changing the antenna >>length. This would change the feedpoint impedance and the SWR. >> >>Unless the line is carrying common mode currents that affect antenna >>impedance, changing coax length won't change the SWR, even if the >>antenna isn't matched. >******** > >BS > >Common mode currents on the shield of coaxial cables do not alter the >feed impedance. Repeat ofter me. Common mode currents on the shield of >coaxial cables do not alter the feed impedance. > >The feed impedance of an antenna is solely determined by its physical >length and any load impedances within the antenna structure. Load >impedances can be stray capacitance with ground via metal objects >within the near field of the antenna or even a building. > >The "Magic" of an electrical halfwave transmission line is at a >precise frequency, the reflection of the load to the transmistter is >equal to the characteristic impedance of the transmission line >irregardless of what impedance it is terminated with. Other lengths >have the load impedance reflected back and transformed by the length >of the coax. The coax then acts as a transformer. It will either step >up or step down the impeadnace of the load depending on the load >itself and the electrical length of the coax. > >All a tuner does is electrically lengthen or shoten the coax by >introducing a lumped LC constant that helps present a resistive load >to the transmitter. The SWR at the feedline does not change. By >placing various different lengths of coax inline, you do the same >thing a tuner does, add a lumped LC constant. > >james So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? Are you sure about that? Article: 214567 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:03 -0700 Message-ID: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> I don't see the original posting here on rec.radio.amateur, but there are a few misconceptions in the followups which should be addressed. Lancer wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:13:35 GMT, james wrote: > > >>On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:31:58 GMT, Lancer wrote: >> >> >>>To have the measured SWR change with coax length, means you have >>>current flowing on the outside of the coax. Your coax then becomes >>>part of the antenna, so changing its length is changing the antenna >>>length. This would change the feedpoint impedance and the SWR. That's correct, except that coax loss will also cause the SWR to change with coax length. Loss will cause the SWR at the antenna (load) to always be greater than at the transmitter (source). >>> >>>Unless the line is carrying common mode currents that affect antenna >>>impedance, changing coax length won't change the SWR, even if the >>>antenna isn't matched. Again correct except for overlooking the effect of coax loss. But there's a real problem in communicating this. If you hook a 50 ohm SWR meter to the input of a 75 ohm, 300 ohm, or line of any impedance other than 50 ohms, the meter reading won't be the SWR on the transmission line. That can mislead people into thinking that the SWR is changing with line length when it actually isn't. >> >>******** >> >>BS >> >>Common mode currents on the shield of coaxial cables do not alter the >>feed impedance. Repeat ofter me. Common mode currents on the shield of >>coaxial cables do not alter the feed impedance. Why repeat it if it isn't true? The explanation given by Lancer was correct. If you change the length of the antenna, the feedpoint impedance will change. When you have common mode current flowing on the feedline, the feedline is part of the antenna; changing its length is changing the antenna's length. >> >>The feed impedance of an antenna is solely determined by its physical >>length and any load impedances within the antenna structure. Load >>impedances can be stray capacitance with ground via metal objects >>within the near field of the antenna or even a building. You have to realize that a radiating feedline (one carrying common mode current) IS part of the antenna structure. >> >>The "Magic" of an electrical halfwave transmission line is at a >>precise frequency, the reflection of the load to the transmistter is >>equal to the characteristic impedance of the transmission line >>irregardless of what impedance it is terminated with. This is true only of a lossless line. If the load impedance isn't far >from the line's characteristic impedance (i.e., the line's SWR is low), a small amount of loss won't make much difference. However, if the line SWR is high, even a small amount of loss can make a major change in the impedance seen at the line's input. The effect is to skew the impedance toward the line's Z0. > Other lengths >>have the load impedance reflected back and transformed by the length >>of the coax. The coax then acts as a transformer. It will either step >>up or step down the impeadnace of the load depending on the load >>itself and the electrical length of the coax. It's a little more complicated than that. The line doesn't simply multiply or divide the impedance by a constant, like a transformer -- except in the special case of a quarter electrical wavelength line or odd multiples thereof. In other cases, the line does transform the impedance, but in a complex way in which the resistance and reactance are transformed by different factors. And reactance can be present at a line's input even when the load is purely resistive. A Smith chart is a good visual aid in seeing what happens. Assuming a lossless line, the impedance traverses a circle around the origin. The radius of the circle corresponds to the line's SWR. With the chart, you can see all the combinations of R and X which a given line can produce with a given load by changing its length. Incidentally, loss causes the impedance to spiral inward toward the origin as the line gets longer, showing how loss skews the input impedance toward Z0. >> >>All a tuner does is electrically lengthen or shoten the coax by >>introducing a lumped LC constant that helps present a resistive load >>to the transmitter. The SWR at the feedline does not change. By >>placing various different lengths of coax inline, you do the same >>thing a tuner does, add a lumped LC constant. As can be seen from the Smith chart, you can produce only particular combinations of R and X by changing the length of a line which has a given load impedance. Unless you're unusually lucky or have planned things carefully, none of these combinations will result in 50 + j0 ohms, the usual goal, at the line's input. In contrast, a tuner is able to adjust both R and X to produce, if designed right for the application, 50 + j0 for a wide range of load impedances. It requires at least two adjustable components to achieve an impedance match from an arbitrary load impedance, because there are two separate quantities, R and X or impedance magnitude and phase, which have to be adjusted. Changing the line length is only one adjustment, so it can't be guaranteed to provide a match. If you could also change the line's Z0, for example, or the length of a stub, you'd have two adjustments and you could guarantee a match providing you have enough adjustment range. >> >>james > > > So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? > > Are you sure about that? Rest assured, that's not all it does. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214568 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Stagger Lee" References: Subject: Re: Post anonymously Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:47:12 +0200 From: "John Smith" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Post anonymously Lines: 12 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:37:26 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.81.210.240 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@ikano.com X-Trace: news.sisna.com 1119746246 66.81.210.240 (Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:26 MDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:26 MDT Organization: Internet News Service X-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 18:37:26 MDT (news.sisna.com) I am sure that everyone here has noticed there is much too much attention paid to where posts originate from. And, there are childish personalities which look up where you are posting from--some with malicious intent... This URL will provide you with a means to be anonymous: http://www.antifirewall.com/news.htm This should allow everyone to put a stop to this bad behavior. John ----------------------------------------------------------- You mean like how you use: o1-dialup-66-81-210-240.rev.o1.com (66.81.210.240) 66.81.0.0 - 66.81.255.255 O1.com 1515 K St. Suite 100 Sacramento, CA US NetEng, Option One neteng@o1.com +1-916-554-2121 66.81.112.0 - 66.81.223.255 O1 Dialup Services 1515 K Street Suite 100 Sacramento, CA US NetEng, Option One neteng@o1.com +1-916-554-2121 Article: 214569 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:11:36 -0700 Message-ID: <11c3taeea0ufl5b@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Thanks to Tom for the comments and additions. >. . . [I've lost track of who said this:] >>>>The "Magic" of an electrical halfwave transmission line is at a >>>>precise frequency, the reflection of the load to the transmistter is >>>>equal to the characteristic impedance of the transmission line >>>>irregardless of what impedance it is terminated with. >> [Roy:] >>This is true only of a lossless line. If the load impedance isn't far >>from the line's characteristic impedance (i.e., the line's SWR is low), >>a small amount of loss won't make much difference. However, if the line >>SWR is high, even a small amount of loss can make a major change in the >>impedance seen at the line's input. The effect is to skew the impedance >>toward the line's Z0. > [Tom:] > The piece that Roy quoted is so outrageous that I can easily believe he > didn't read it right, but I've re-read it several times, and it keeps > coming out the same: the "magical" halfwave line does NOT reflect an > impedance to the source (transmitter) equal to the LINE impedance as > the quoted section says, but it reflects the LOAD impedance (altered by > line loss as Roy says). > . . . Wow, I certainly read that (top quote) too quickly. Tom is absolutely right, as written it's very wrong, and I misread it. I retract my statement about it's being "true only of a lossless line" -- of course it's not true at all, but works as Tom says. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214570 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "WdntULik2no" References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:12:31 -0700 Message-ID: w8ji please tell me some damn fool has not put you in a position to influence people you are an idiot WdntULik2no "W8JI" wrote in message news:1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Please don't consider Chris as speaking for me, or accurately > presenting everything I said. > > We all know how easy it is to lift selective portions of long > exchanges > and make things sound any way we like. > > The original topic was Sevik's 4:1 balun on a single core, where > that > balun is made up of two 1:1 ratio choke baluns with parallel inputs > and > series outputs. The imputs are excited in a transmission line mode > (differentially) and the outputs in series. The balun cores provide > only ground isolation through common mode impedance. I have a > similar > balun built by MFJ, and it has terrible balance. It actually is an > offset voltage voltage balun. > > Early on I specifically excluded transformer-type baluns. > > I think the problem is Chris thinks we can feed a transmission line > end-to-end on a single conductor and contain energy within the line > area. As far as I see, there is nothing causing the line to operate > in > a TEM mode, but it behaves only as a simple 1:1 transformer. > > I beleive this is at the root of the poor efficiency and poor SWR > bandwidth of Chris' "balun". > > The bandwidth problem would be caused because a transmission line in > TEM mode would have distributed capacitance cancelling series > inductance of the leads, a transformer winding does not. This also > gives rise to the distributed capacitance tending to pull the load > side > to the voltage balance of the source winding, causing a problem with > high frequency balance. > > The isolation transformer method has the advantage of much better > low > frequency isolation and allowing a single core, but falls on its > face > for SWR response, power handling for a given core size, and high > frequency balance and common mode isolation. > > I think the real argument or disagreement is if the lines in a > parallel > or coaxial wound primary and secondary like Chris used are in TEM > mode, > or simply acting as a transformer. My contention is it is a > transformer, and those who think any two parallel or concentric > conductors when fed start-to-finish or tend-to-end on one conductor > forces a TEM mode are not viewing the system correctly. > > It will be interesting to see what others think. I have a partial > analysis on my web site in a 4:1 balun analysis , and I'll be adding > more information to that as time permits. > > Please, just the technical facts. I'll speak for myself. > > 73 Tom > Article: 214571 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:37:05 -0400 Message-ID: <75bd6$42c21768$97d55b49$3750@ALLTEL.NET> Tom stands up and tells the world what he thinks We know who Tom is, and of his many accomplishments. He, unlike you, signs his name to his statements. You have obviously failed to make a dent in the technical arena, or like Tom you would sign a cogent rebuttal as opposed to your school yard antics. If you can't compete on a technical level, sit back down in the peanut gallery and learn grasshopper. "WdntULik2no" wrote in message news:inmngeygcwrq14x.280620051612@kirk... > w8ji > > please tell me some damn fool has not put you in a position to > influence people > > you are an idiot > > WdntULik2no Article: 214572 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:49:46 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 28 Jun 2005 17:51:10 -0700, "K7ITM" wrote in <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >> But there's a real problem in communicating this. If you hook a 50 ohm >> SWR meter to the input of a 75 ohm, 300 ohm, or line of any impedance >> other than 50 ohms, the meter reading won't be the SWR on the >> transmission line. That can mislead people into thinking that the SWR is >> changing with line length when it actually isn't. >> > >In addition, most hams (and other non-professionals -- and even many >professionals) don't bother to check that their SWR meter is properly >calibrated to the impedance they think it is. Most are nominally 50 >ohms, but they can be built for any practical line impedance. Checking >calibration is not all that difficult, if you take the time to do it. >In addition, your nominally 50 ohm line (or 75 or whatever) can have an >actual impedance 10% or more from the nominal value. If you have >properly calibrated your meter to 50 ohms, and your line is 60 ohms, >you would read 1.2:1 SWR when your line is actually 1:1. And if the >SWR on the 60 ohm line is 1.2:1, that 50 ohm SWR meter can read >anything between 1:1 and 1.44:1, depending on the line length and its >load. Finally, though you may have checked that the meter to reads 1:1 >with a 50 ohm load and infinity to 1 with a short or open load, the >construction of inexpensive meters may cause them to have significant >errors at other load impedances. Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since most SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much shorter than the operating wavelength. Regardless, I'm not a big fan of SWR meters -- they are good for detecting a major malfunction but that's about it. Antenna tuning/matching is best done with a field strength meter. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214573 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steveo" References: <1119874390.757705.302360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <75bd6$42c21768$97d55b49$3750@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:44:37 -0700 Message-ID: <6wgmvhh1q0u65m5.280620052044@kirk> hmmm, toothless old men with loud barks and radios interesting "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:75bd6$42c21768$97d55b49$3750@ALLTEL.NET... > Tom stands up and tells the world what he thinks We know who Tom is, > and of > his many accomplishments. He, unlike you, signs his name to his > statements. > > You have obviously failed to make a dent in the technical arena, or > like Tom > you would sign a cogent rebuttal as opposed to your school yard > antics. > > If you can't compete on a technical level, sit back down in the > peanut > gallery and learn grasshopper. > > > "WdntULik2no" wrote in message > news:inmngeygcwrq14x.280620051612@kirk... >> w8ji >> >> please tell me some damn fool has not put you in a position to >> influence people >> >> you are an idiot >> >> WdntULik2no > > > Article: 214574 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:17:15 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since most > SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much shorter > than the operating wavelength. Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214575 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steveo" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 21:01:52 -0700 Message-ID: if you have over a 2:1 standing wave you can do damage to your finals or linear "Frank Gilliland" wrote in message news:t754c1d45j6gql5dv050j8l8igirtdmd44@4ax.com... > On 28 Jun 2005 17:51:10 -0700, "K7ITM" wrote in > <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: > > >>> But there's a real problem in communicating this. If you hook a 50 >>> ohm >>> SWR meter to the input of a 75 ohm, 300 ohm, or line of any >>> impedance >>> other than 50 ohms, the meter reading won't be the SWR on the >>> transmission line. That can mislead people into thinking that the >>> SWR is >>> changing with line length when it actually isn't. >>> >> >>In addition, most hams (and other non-professionals -- and even many >>professionals) don't bother to check that their SWR meter is >>properly >>calibrated to the impedance they think it is. Most are nominally 50 >>ohms, but they can be built for any practical line impedance. >>Checking >>calibration is not all that difficult, if you take the time to do >>it. >>In addition, your nominally 50 ohm line (or 75 or whatever) can have >>an >>actual impedance 10% or more from the nominal value. If you have >>properly calibrated your meter to 50 ohms, and your line is 60 ohms, >>you would read 1.2:1 SWR when your line is actually 1:1. And if the >>SWR on the 60 ohm line is 1.2:1, that 50 ohm SWR meter can read >>anything between 1:1 and 1.44:1, depending on the line length and >>its >>load. Finally, though you may have checked that the meter to reads >>1:1 >>with a 50 ohm load and infinity to 1 with a short or open load, the >>construction of inexpensive meters may cause them to have >>significant >>errors at other load impedances. > > > Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since > most > SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much > shorter > than the operating wavelength. Regardless, I'm not a big fan of SWR > meters -- they are good for detecting a major malfunction but that's > about it. Antenna tuning/matching is best done with a field strength > meter. > > > > > > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via > Encryption =---- Article: 214576 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 00:53:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:03 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >>>>To have the measured SWR change with coax length, means you have >>>>current flowing on the outside of the coax. Your coax then becomes >>>>part of the antenna, so changing its length is changing the antenna >>>>length. This would change the feedpoint impedance and the SWR. > >That's correct, except that coax loss will also cause the SWR to change >with coax length. Loss will cause the SWR at the antenna (load) to >always be greater than at the transmitter (source). Would the changing of the coax lead to moving the SWR meter to a different voltage point on the coax? -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214577 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:04:59 -0400 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 20:49:46 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote: > I'm not a big fan of SWR >meters -- they are good for detecting a major malfunction but that's >about it. Antenna tuning/matching is best done with a field strength >meter. A local retired instructor of some sort (military, i believe) has the same opinion. He doesn't like SWR meters but instead measures all his antennas by field strength meter. I used to tune my Swan with one. I found when I used an SWR meter, the minimum SWR dip was NEVER the maximum field strength reading. I always had to raise the SWR to about 1.3:1 or so. Around here, most of us know not to mention the performance of an antenna to him if we only used an SWR meter or antenna analyzer. His first question is "How did it do with the FSM?" I believe he is right. Radios drop power when they don't like the SWR and raise it when it does. 73 N4PGW -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214578 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:37:21 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 01:04:59 -0400, Buck wrote: >I used to tune my Swan with one. I found when I used an SWR meter, >the minimum SWR dip was NEVER the maximum field strength reading. I >always had to raise the SWR to about 1.3:1 or so. The probable reason for maximum power output not coinciding with the plate current dip is imperfect neutralisation (whether or not the stage is neutralised). If you have a neutralisation adjustment, you can get the two to coincide by properly adjusting the neutralisation. You can use this coincidence as a quite sensitive indication of optimal neutralisation if you use a digital meter to monitor plate current, and the power out indicator to monitor RF output power. Adjust the tuning and loading for rated power into a dummy load, check the tune cap is peaked for max Po, observe the plate current, carefully dip the plate current, noting whether the dip was left or right of max Po. Now tweak the neutralisation until the two coincide. When it is all done properly, the "dip" of the plate current should be symmetric, ie it should be as "sharp" approaching from one side as the other. (Asymetric dips are another symptom of non-omptimal neutralisation. Owen -- Article: 214579 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:32:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Roy, to cut things short, why don't you just say SWR meters don't measure SWR on anything. All they do is indicate whether or not the transmitter is terminated with its correct load resistance. So they are quite useful. They won't even tell you what the load resistance actually is unless the load is exactly correct. Stop fooling and confusing yourselves. The solution to everybody's problems is simple - just change the name of the thing to TLI. (Transmitter Loading Indicator). ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 214580 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Harold E. Johnson" References: <1119959789.301532.229560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:08:59 GMT "Larry Benko" wrote in message news:NaqdnUQmwIIZt1_fRVn-iw@comcast.com... > I just happened upon an App. note written by Philips > Semiconductors (ECO6907) titled "Design of HF wideband power > transformers" which states for both 4:1 and 9:1 transmission > line transformers that they CAN be wound on a single core if > desired for certain conditions (see sections 6.3, 6.4 and 6.6). > > http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/acrobat_download/applicationnotes/ECO6907.pdf > > 73, > Larry, W0QE And, that comes in TWO parts. ECO6907 and ECO 7213. BOTH wonderful resources, and both apply to the discussion here. (They DO call them "conventional transformers" and not Baluns.) W4ZCB Article: 214581 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 03:21:57 -0700 Message-ID: <11c4ti8qj23luef@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Thanks very much to Owen for pointing out the following errors in my recent posting: Roy Lewallen wrote: > . . . > Next experiment: Connect the SWR meter through a *quarter* wavelength of > 50 ohm line to a 100 ohm load. Now the impedance looking into the line > is 25 ohms instead of 100. But the SWR meter reads 2:1 when it sees 25 > ohms as well as 100, so it still reads 2:1, which is also still the SWR > on the 50 ohm line. You can change the length of the 50 ohm line all you > want and, if it's lossless, the line's actual SWR stays the same -- but > the impedance at the input end of the line changes. For a 100 ohm load, > when the line is any even number of half wavelengths long, the input Z > is 100 ohms. . . That last sentence should be "For a 100 ohm load, when the line is *any whole number* of half wavelengths long, the input Z is 100 ohms." Likewise, > Now instead of a 50 ohm line, let's connect a half wavelength 100 ohm > line to the output of the same 50 ohm SWR meter and hook that to a 50 > ohm resistive load. The line's actual SWR is 2:1 and, just like any > lossless line, the SWR stays the same regardless of its length. If the > transmission line is an even number of half wavelengths long we'll have > 50 ohms at the input and the SWR meter will read 1:1, since it's a 50 > ohm meter and interprets 50 ohms as 1:1. "an even number of half wavelengths" should be "any whole number of half wavelengths". I appreciate the corrections, and encourage anyone who spots errors to bring them to my attention, or the newsgroup's. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214582 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:10:51 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c290c6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Steveo wrote: > if you have over a 2:1 standing wave you can do damage to your finals > or linear Depends on what one is running. My IC-706 folds back automatically and protects itself. My SGC-500 linear is advertised to tolerate an SWR of up to 6:1. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214583 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: Subject: Re: 6 Meter Antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 07:48:27 -0500 Message-ID: <42c298f8$1_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Caveat Lector" wrote: > A discone has been described as a dummy load in the sky, > wide band but no gain. _______________________ That is an incorrect description, though. A discone has zero loss, NOT zero gain. It has ~ unity gain with respect to a 1/2-wave dipole, i.e. ~ 2.15 dBi gain. OTOH a perfect dummy load has infinite loss. Big difference. RF Article: 214584 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:00:33 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c29c6c$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > Some people can put up a huge > smokescreen and waving of hands about reflected waves of one kind or > another, but at the end of the day the SWR meter can't tell the > difference between a resistor and a transmission line terminated with a > load, if the impedances the meter sees are the same. It's sensitive only > to impedance; A 20K ohms/volt Simpson may yield an irrelevant screen voltage reading for a pentode because it loads the circuit down. Hand waving aside, any instrument can be misused. An SWR meter designed and calibrated for a Z0=50 standing-wave environment may yield an irrelevant reading when operated outside of a Z0=50 ohm standing-wave environment. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214585 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:16:34 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c2a02d$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > Roy, to cut things short, why don't you just say SWR meters don't > measure SWR on anything. All they do is indicate whether or not the > transmitter is terminated with its correct load resistance. So they > are quite useful. Reg, how about my 450 ohm SWR meter? It just sits there reading somewhere between 6:1 and 12:1. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214586 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:28:14 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c2a2e9$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Ian White GM3SEK wrote: > Reg Edwards wrote: >> Stop fooling and confusing yourselves. The solution to everybody's >> problems is simple - just change the name of the thing to TLI. >> (Transmitter Loading Indicator). > > Or - recalling that what the meter actually measures is the reflection > coefficient - why not go back to the old name of "Reflectometer"? Trouble is, during steady-state, they only measure the virtual reflection coefficient which is itself confusing since it is not the same as the physical reflection coefficient measured by a TDR. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214587 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> <42c29c6c$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 08:55:08 -0500 Message-ID: <42c2a899_3@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote: > An SWR meter designed and calibrated for a Z0=50 standing-wave > environment may yield an irrelevant reading when operated outside > of a Z0=50 ohm standing-wave environment. ___________________ Elaborating, an SWR meter will produce ~ accurate readings for an unknown termination connected to it via a lossless transmission line of any length, as long as that line has the same Zo as the sample section in the SWR meter. It is only when the transmission line Zo varies from the Zo of the SWR meter line section that accurate measurement of load SWR is problematic. Selecting line lengths and line impedances to make an SWR meter and/or tx "happy" when connected to an antenna doesn't necessarily mean that the all components in the r-f output system have low SWR. The tx may be able to deliver more power to the net load under those conditions, but SWR may still exist on the transmission line capable of causing its failure. RF Article: 214588 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:05:12 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> "Ian White wrote - >Stop fooling and confusing yourselves. The solution to everybody's > >problems is simple - just change the name of the thing to TLI. > >(Transmitter Loading Indicator). > > Or - recalling that what the meter actually measures is the reflection > coefficient - why not go back to the old name of "Reflectometer"? > =================================== It does NOT read the reflection coefficient. It reads only half of it. At least half of the information lies in the angle of the RC - which is disregarded, ignored, by the so-called meter. The magnitude of the RC without its angle is just another worthless number. It can't be used for anything except to calculate a fictional SWR. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 214589 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 09:45:25 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c2b501$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > The magnitude of the RC without its angle is just another worthless > number. It can't be used for anything except to calculate a fictional > SWR. Actually, it is pretty useful for a Z0-matched system since there is one and only one unique solution at the Z0-match point. In a Z0-matched system, all forward and reflected voltages and currents are at the reference zero degrees or at 180 degrees so all the phase angles are known without measuring them. The physical reflection coefficient is a function of Z01 and Z02 at a Z0-match point. The sign of the reflection coefficient corresponds to either zero degrees or 180 degrees and depends on whether (Z01 < Z02) or (Z01 > Z02). Since the great majority of amateur radio systems are close to a Z0-match, this becomes a useful analysis tool for the most common cases. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214590 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:07:17 -0400 Message-ID: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> What is the reason a 2:1 SWR can cause such havoc? How can I avoid this catastrophic condition? I feed my dipoles with 450 Ohm ladder line, but the last 20 feet or so is 50 Ohm coax, I guess that makes it work ok. I haven't blown up my finals yet. Lions and tigers and bears Oh my... "Steveo" wrote in message news:nceoaqqpc0a3yzz.280620052102@kirk... > if you have over a 2:1 standing wave you can do damage to your finals > or linear Article: 214591 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: <93i5c1pcn2i0blgene4ukpc5db6aojffnf@4ax.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:05:32 GMT On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:15:18 GMT, Lancer wrote: >So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? > >Are you sure about that? **** Essentially yes. Without having to go into detailed mathematics, it is the simplest form to explain what is happening. james Article: 214592 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: <87i5c1t902ovg61auib3djrsih4qfuh9nh@4ax.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:08:44 GMT On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:03 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >It's a little more complicated than that. The line doesn't simply >multiply or divide the impedance by a constant, like a transformer -- >except in the special case of a quarter electrical wavelength line or >odd multiples thereof. *** Roy I believe this thread started on rec.radio.cb and yes your correct here. I just did not want to get into great details on quarter wave sections and uses of transmission lines as lumped elements. I though that was beyond the scope of the original post. I am kind of sorry that I even mentions what I did. james Article: 214593 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <93i5c1pcn2i0blgene4ukpc5db6aojffnf@4ax.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <555b3$42c2c7a0$97d55b49$11968@ALLTEL.NET> Balderdash! "james" wrote in message news:93i5c1pcn2i0blgene4ukpc5db6aojffnf@4ax.com... > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 22:15:18 GMT, Lancer wrote: > > >So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? > > > >Are you sure about that? > **** > > Essentially yes. Without having to go into detailed mathematics, it is > the simplest form to explain what is happening. > > james Article: 214594 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:00:11 -0700 Message-ID: <11c5kse2sjldg9f@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <11c4j1hg9p58hec@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > Roy, to cut things short, why don't you just say SWR meters don't > measure SWR on anything. He did, he just felt compelled to add a page or so of explaination. > All they do is indicate whether or not the > transmitter is terminated with its correct load resistance. So they > are quite useful. Well, to be picky all they do is indicate the divergence from the Zo of the meter, in a certain way. If the TX is designed for that Zo then they do what you say, and they're quite useful. > They won't even tell you what the load resistance actually is unless > the load is exactly correct. Yes > > Stop fooling and confusing yourselves. The solution to everybody's > problems is simple - just change the name of the thing to TLI. > (Transmitter Loading Indicator). Hmm. I'll stick with SWR meter -- which it is if it's used properly. -- ------------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Article: 214595 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:11:14 -0700 Message-ID: <11c5lh5iufsjd91@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Buck wrote: > I believe he is right. Radios drop power when they don't like the SWR > and raise it when it does. > That depends on the radio. Without SWR protection one with a class C final, like the ones in the little QRP rigs I have lying around, will deliver more power if it sees a lower RF impedance at the final transistor than it was designed for. It will also overheat said final transistor* and possibly damage it. This will happen for some SWR mismatches but not all. Again without SWR protection one with a class AB or B final, properly tuned for a 50 ohm resistive load, will deliver less power for some mismatches (the same mismatches that would be _higher_ power for the class C final). With other mismatches it would exhibit higher gain but more distortion. At some mismatch and level of drive you could probably expose the finals to too much power dissipation, too high an RF current or too high an RF voltage, and do damage. This depends _heavily_ on the design of the final stage. With SWR protection, of course, the radio will automatically back off, perhaps even in a way that will do some good. So I will use an SWR meter to keep the transmitter happy, and a field strength meter to make sure my antenna is doing it's job. * assuming I got the heatsink design right, neither overly conservative nor overly optimistic. ------------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Article: 214596 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 12:24:22 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <93i5c1pcn2i0blgene4ukpc5db6aojffnf@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c2da40$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> james wrote: > Lancer wrote: >>So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? >> >>Are you sure about that? > > Essentially yes. Without having to go into detailed mathematics, it is > the simplest form to explain what is happening. If you include the possibility of changing the Z0 of the coax as well as the length, you will be closer to the truth. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214597 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:13:51 -0700 Message-ID: <11c5p72ikr0mg90@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <11c5lh5iufsjd91@corp.supernews.com> > Buck wrote: > > I believe he is right. Radios drop power when they don't like the SWR > and raise it when it does. This is an illustration of a common problem. It's really improper *impedances* presented to the radio that disturb it; it doesn't know or care about the actual SWR on whatever transmission line may or may not be connected. Transmitters typically specify and show this load impedance as "SWR". But they can't tell the difference between a half wavelength 50 ohm line with 100 ohm load, which has a line SWR of 2:1; any length of 100 ohm line with a 100 ohm load, which has a line SWR of 1:1; a quarter wavelength of 300 ohm line with a 900 ohm load, which has a line SWR of 3:1; or a 100 ohm resistor. All these and an infinite number of other combinations will present 100 ohms to the rig, all will cause the rig's SWR meter to read 2:1, and all will have exactly the same effect. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214598 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:20:43 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:07:17 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" wrote: >What is the reason a 2:1 SWR can cause such havoc? > >How can I avoid this catastrophic condition? > >I feed my dipoles with 450 Ohm ladder line, but the last 20 feet or so is 50 >Ohm coax, I guess that makes it work ok. I haven't blown up my finals yet. > >Lions and tigers and bears Oh my... ***** Actually can happen if you push the finals to where there is insufficeint margin to the maximum heat dissapation. Tubes are a bit more forgiving. Transistor inadequately heatsinked and overdriven, typical CB usage, often have little of no margin for heat dissapation. If the transmitter has a refelction coefficient of zero and the load say .3, then that reflected power from the load is dissapated as heat in the output circuits and any final transistors or tubes. Now if the radio has a reflection coefficient other than zero that will lessen the heat dissapation on the transimiiter. Now you get load and source reflections convoluting within the transmission line. You ought to model a 400 Mhz square wave with source and load refelctions coefficients other than zero. It can get ugly james Article: 214599 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:07:26 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:17:15 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote in <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >Frank Gilliland wrote: >> Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since most >> SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much shorter >> than the operating wavelength. > >Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms >and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. The point is that the error is insignificant when the directional coupler is much shorter than the wavelength. The error is even more insignificant when there are a host of variables and confounds between the SWR meter and the transmitted field that can (and frequently do) affect the objective -- field strength. It's much simpler (and just plain logical) to measure the field strength directly instead of measuring an abstract value halfway towards the objective and relying on nothing more than speculation that the rest is working according as expected. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214600 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:37:10 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: >>Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms >>and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >>from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. > > The point is that the error is insignificant when the directional > coupler is much shorter than the wavelength. Nope, that's not the point at all. It is true that a 50 ohm SWR meter designed for HF may not work on 70 cm but the error I'm talking about is the calibration error in a 50 ohm SWR meter designed for HF and used on HF in, for instance, a Z0 = 450 ohm environment instead of its calibrated-for 50 ohm environment. It works perfectly in a 50 ohm environment at the HF frequency of operation. Here's the proof using a 50 ohm SWR meter: XMTR--1/2WL 450 ohm line--SWR meter--1/2WL 450 ohm line--50 ohm load The 50 ohm SWR meter will read 1:1, nowhere near the actual SWR XMTR--1/4WL 450 ohm line--SWR meter--1/4WL 450 ohm line--50 ohm load The 50 ohm SWR meter will read 81:1, nowhere near the actual SWR An SWR meter calibrated for 450 ohms will correctly read 9:1 in both cases. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214601 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> james wrote: > If the transmitter has a refelction coefficient of zero and the load > say .3, then that reflected power from the load is dissapated as heat > in the output circuits and any final transistors or tubes. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214602 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:58:51 GMT james wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. > > ***** > > Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the > transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The > results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. > > QED > > james > Cecil was talking about current, not power. You can't add power the way you can voltage and current. If you could, you could build a very nice perpetual motion machine just by using the reflections in a transmission line to add power so that the output was greater than the input. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 214603 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steveo" References: <1119959789.301532.229560@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1120062748.889327.298110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: A Single-Core 4:1 Current Balun Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:04:41 -0700 Message-ID: i think w8ji can safely be ignored-permanently "W8JI" wrote in message news:1120062748.889327.298110@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... just happened upon an App. note written by Philips Semiconductors (ECO6907) titled "Design of HF wideband power transformers" which states for both 4:1 and 9:1 transmission line transformers that they CAN be wound on a single core if desired for certain conditions (see sections 6.3, 6.4 and 6.6). http://www.semiconductors.phil­ips.com/acrobat_download/appli­cationnot... 73, Larry, W0QE >> Hi Larry, Don't fall into the trap of swallowing out of context quotes by Trask. That's an old tired game, and it only results in everyone chasing their tails to argue about nothing. 1.) I very specifically excluded primary-secondary type transformers >from the single core current balun statement. 2.) I very specifically was speaking of a dual transmission line 1:1 balun Sevik described using two 1:1 transmission line current baluns on one core. If you can think of a way to build a transmission line balun that way that is a current balun, please let us all know. No one has been able to do it so far. Calling a primary-secondary transformer a "transmission line" does not count, so no "creative" ways to describe something following Lenz's laws rather than TEM mode is necessary. Everyone already knows a conventional primary secondary transformer will work. 73 Tom Article: 214604 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Yodar Subject: Re: 2 greatest Antennas I have ever had References: <1119815937.147508.13610@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 23:40:03 GMT WHO ! where ? ================== RoyaltyFreePhotoMart@gmail.com wrote: OK, the SECOND GREAT ANTENNA that I have is a Windom. Now, don't laugh, but this is the 10 thru 40 meter Windom THAT A GUY ON EBAY SELLS FOR $20. That Windom is the best $20 investment I ever made. > > Bill Hansen > Article: 214605 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:29:26 -0700 Message-ID: <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> The rig has no way of detecting any alleged "reflected power". It can't tell the difference between a feedline with a lot of "reflected power", a feedline with no "reflected power", and a plain resistor. It behaves exactly the same in all cases, provided only that the impedance that each provides to it is the same. Anyone not convinced of this should put a couple or more dummy loads in series or parallel, make up a few lengths of transmission line of various impedances, and see for himself. Roy Lewallen, W7EL james wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. > > ***** > > Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the > transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The > results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. > > QED > > james > Article: 214606 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:53:02 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:37:10 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote in <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >Frank Gilliland wrote: >>>Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms >>>and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >>>from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. >> >> The point is that the error is insignificant when the directional >> coupler is much shorter than the wavelength. > >Nope, that's not the point at all. It is true that a 50 ohm >SWR meter designed for HF may not work on 70 cm but the error >I'm talking about is the calibration error in a 50 ohm SWR meter >designed for HF and used on HF in, for instance, a Z0 = 450 ohm >environment instead of its calibrated-for 50 ohm environment.... There lies our misperceptions; I was not referring to using an HF SWR meter designed for coax and plugging it into 450 ohm ladder line. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214607 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:55:33 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:58:51 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: >james wrote: > >> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore >> wrote: >> >> >>>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. >> >> ***** >> >> Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the >> transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The >> results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. >> >> QED >> >> james >> > >Cecil was talking about current, not power. You can't add >power the way you can voltage and current. If you could, you >could build a very nice perpetual motion machine just by using the >reflections in a transmission line to add power so that the output >was greater than the input. >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH ****** Tom The problem is that current is not reflected back from the load, power is. Thus the you can add magnitudes of power. james Article: 214608 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:01:47 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:29:26 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >The rig has no way of detecting any alleged "reflected power". It can't >tell the difference between a feedline with a lot of "reflected power", >a feedline with no "reflected power", and a plain resistor. It behaves >exactly the same in all cases, provided only that the impedance that >each provides to it is the same. > ***** Agreed that a rig cannot detect the difference between forward and reflected power. If the reflection coeffiecient of the source is zero then final stage of a transmiter will look purely resistive to any power reflected by the load. Thereby that refelcted power is dissapated as heat. Other reflection coefficients at the source will yield lesser amounts of reflected power from the load as heat. james >Anyone not convinced of this should put a couple or more dummy loads in >series or parallel, make up a few lengths of transmission line of >various impedances, and see for himself. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL > >james wrote: >> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore >> wrote: >> >> >>>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. >> >> ***** >> >> Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the >> transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The >> results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. >> >> QED >> >> james >> Article: 214609 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:10:53 -0700 Message-ID: <13d6c1hcv8c00lq5eis4ssbi3omhn69ikj@4ax.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1120082009.184166.165960@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> On 29 Jun 2005 14:53:29 -0700, "K7ITM" wrote in <1120082009.184166.165960@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>: >Frank Gilliland wrote, among other things, "The point is that the error >is insignificant when the directional coupler is much shorter than the >wavelength." > >Certainly "directional couplers" for HF may be built at essentially >zero length, and ideally would have exactly zero length, monitoring the >current and voltage at a single point on a line. Then SWR or >reflection coefficient magnitude or even complex reflection coefficient >may be calculated under the assumption we know the desired reference >impedance. But if the equipment combines the voltage and current >samples in the wrong ratio, you will get the WRONG answer. Even if the >coupler looks like a perfect 50 ohms impedance section of transmission >line (with some attenuation), the error _in_measurement_output_ can be >significant indeed. Just because the coupler looks like a 50 ohm line >to the line it's hooked to doesn't mean it will read zero reflection >when IT's presented with a 50 ohm load. SWR is a ratio, not an absolute value. It doesn't matter if the meter reads a forward power that's off by 1 or 1000 watts just as long as the reflected power is in error by the same percent, which will be the case unless you are using two different meters for forward and reflected power. Calibrated or not, SWR is the same. >And by the way, not everyone who measures and cares very much about SWR >(or reflection coefficient) cares a whit about field strength. Not all >loads are antennas. That point might be relevant if this thread were cross-posted to alt.heaters.induction or rec.dummy-loads. >Indeed, as Reg says, we might do better in amateur applications to >consider the SWR meter as an indicator of the degree to which we're >presenting a transmitter with the desired load. I agree 100%. > That's really what >we're using it for, most of the time. Unfortunately, it's that "most of the time" part that starts threads like this. Some radio operators mistakenly think SWR is a measure of antenna efficiency. > It may ALSO be interesting to >know the field strength, but please be aware that a transmitter's >distortion products may be significantly higher if it's presented the >wrong load impedance, even though the power output may be increased. >Field strength alone is not acceptable to me as a means to adjust an >antenna load to a transmitter, or as a way to adjust the operating >point of the transmitter. True story. It's certainly better to use a tunable FSM if one is available. And such meters are readily available -- any receiver with a good S-meter. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214610 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:12:31 GMT james wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:58:51 GMT, "Tom Donaly" > wrote: > > >>james wrote: >> >> >>>On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>>>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>>>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. >>> >>>***** >>> >>>Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the >>>transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The >>>results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. >>> >>>QED >>> >>>james >>> >> >>Cecil was talking about current, not power. You can't add >>power the way you can voltage and current. If you could, you >>could build a very nice perpetual motion machine just by using the >>reflections in a transmission line to add power so that the output >>was greater than the input. >>73, >>Tom Donaly, KA6RUH > > ****** > > Tom > > The problem is that current is not reflected back from the load, power > is. Thus the you can add magnitudes of power. > > > james Nope. You need a course in electromagnetics. Who put all these ideas into your head, anyway? 73, Tom Article: 214611 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:19:22 GMT james wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:29:26 -0700, Roy Lewallen > wrote: > > >>The rig has no way of detecting any alleged "reflected power". It can't >>tell the difference between a feedline with a lot of "reflected power", >>a feedline with no "reflected power", and a plain resistor. It behaves >>exactly the same in all cases, provided only that the impedance that >>each provides to it is the same. >> > > ***** > > Agreed that a rig cannot detect the difference between forward and > reflected power. If the reflection coeffiecient of the source is zero > then final stage of a transmiter will look purely resistive to any > power reflected by the load. Thereby that refelcted power is > dissapated as heat. Other reflection coefficients at the source will > yield lesser amounts of reflected power from the load as heat. > > james > > >>Anyone not convinced of this should put a couple or more dummy loads in >>series or parallel, make up a few lengths of transmission line of >>various impedances, and see for himself. >> >>Roy Lewallen, W7EL >> >>james wrote: >> >>>On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 16:42:49 -0500, Cecil Moore >>>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If the reflected current arrives out >>>>of phase with the forward current, then the final dissipation can >>>>actually be *reduced* by the mismatch. >>> >>>***** >>> >>>Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the >>>transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The >>>results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. >>> >>>QED >>> >>>james >>> > > You need to read _Reflections II, Transmission Lines and Antennas_ by M. Walter Maxwell, W2DU. Even better, get a book on electromagnetics. You might be able to puzzle some of it out although much of the math might be too esoteric for you. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 214612 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:22:48 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:45:03 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: >james wrote: >> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:07:17 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" >> wrote: >> >> >>>What is the reason a 2:1 SWR can cause such havoc? >>> >>>How can I avoid this catastrophic condition? >>> >>>I feed my dipoles with 450 Ohm ladder line, but the last 20 feet or so is 50 >>>Ohm coax, I guess that makes it work ok. I haven't blown up my finals yet. >>> >>>Lions and tigers and bears Oh my... >> >> ***** >> >> Actually can happen if you push the finals to where there is >> insufficeint margin to the maximum heat dissapation. Tubes are a bit >> more forgiving. Transistor inadequately heatsinked and overdriven, >> typical CB usage, often have little of no margin for heat dissapation. >> >> If the transmitter has a refelction coefficient of zero and the load >> say .3, then that reflected power from the load is dissapated as heat >> in the output circuits and any final transistors or tubes. Now if the >> radio has a reflection coefficient other than zero that will lessen >> the heat dissapation on the transimiiter. Now you get load and source >> reflections convoluting within the transmission line. >> >> You ought to model a 400 Mhz square wave with source and load >> refelctions coefficients other than zero. It can get ugly >> >> >> james >> > > >Consider the MRF 140, a 150 Watt 2.0 - 150.0 Mhz N-Channel >linear RF power fet. From the technical data sheet: "100% Tested >For Load Mismatch At All Phase Angles With 30:1 VSWR." You'd have >a tough time damaging this device with a mere 2:1 VSWR. >How do load and source reflections convolute within the >transmission line? That's a new one on me. My old dictionary >defines 'convolute' as "Rolled or folded together with one part >over another; twisted; coiled." The rest of the post is pretty >fanciful, too. A trip to the library would do wonders. >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH ****** In electrical engineering it is the instantaneous power density of two signals passing at the same spot from two directions. That is called Convolution. It also is a nice mathematical means of modeling SWR at any point on a transmisison line at a particular time. Well if you knew CBers, they are not satidied getting 150 watts from a transistor rated for 150 watts. But in my first paragraph I thought I made it clear but evidently I did not. I guess I must strive to better explain myslef. james Article: 214613 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:25:23 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:12:31 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: >Nope. You need a course in electromagnetics. Who put all these >ideas into your head, anyway? >73, >Tom Electromagnetics james Article: 214614 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:25:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:45:03 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote in : >..... A trip to the library would do wonders. >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH I keep trying to stress that fact, but some people persist under the delusion that they can learn everything they need from the internet. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214615 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:37:03 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:19:22 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: >You need to read _Reflections II, Transmission Lines and Antennas_ >by M. Walter Maxwell, W2DU. Even better, get a book on electromagnetics. >You might be able to puzzle some of it out although much of >the math might be too esoteric for you. >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH ***** Whats wrong with stating that power is reflected by the load? Isn't power delivered to the load from the source? Elementary electronics states that power is voltage time current. Currents in a transmission line are induced currents. They are induced >from the E and H fields of the TEM wave. I hope that you don't think that current races up and down the coax millions a times per second? james Article: 214616 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:43:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:22:48 GMT, james wrote in : >On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:45:03 GMT, "Tom Donaly" > wrote: > >>james wrote: >>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 11:07:17 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>What is the reason a 2:1 SWR can cause such havoc? >>>> >>>>How can I avoid this catastrophic condition? >>>> >>>>I feed my dipoles with 450 Ohm ladder line, but the last 20 feet or so is 50 >>>>Ohm coax, I guess that makes it work ok. I haven't blown up my finals yet. >>>> >>>>Lions and tigers and bears Oh my... >>> >>> ***** >>> >>> Actually can happen if you push the finals to where there is >>> insufficeint margin to the maximum heat dissapation. Tubes are a bit >>> more forgiving. Transistor inadequately heatsinked and overdriven, >>> typical CB usage, often have little of no margin for heat dissapation. >>> >>> If the transmitter has a refelction coefficient of zero and the load >>> say .3, then that reflected power from the load is dissapated as heat >>> in the output circuits and any final transistors or tubes. Now if the >>> radio has a reflection coefficient other than zero that will lessen >>> the heat dissapation on the transimiiter. Now you get load and source >>> reflections convoluting within the transmission line. >>> >>> You ought to model a 400 Mhz square wave with source and load >>> refelctions coefficients other than zero. It can get ugly >>> >>> >>> james >>> >> >> >>Consider the MRF 140, a 150 Watt 2.0 - 150.0 Mhz N-Channel >>linear RF power fet. From the technical data sheet: "100% Tested >>For Load Mismatch At All Phase Angles With 30:1 VSWR." You'd have >>a tough time damaging this device with a mere 2:1 VSWR. >>How do load and source reflections convolute within the >>transmission line? That's a new one on me. My old dictionary >>defines 'convolute' as "Rolled or folded together with one part >>over another; twisted; coiled." The rest of the post is pretty >>fanciful, too. A trip to the library would do wonders. >>73, >>Tom Donaly, KA6RUH >****** > >In electrical engineering it is the instantaneous power density of two >signals passing at the same spot from two directions. That is called >Convolution. I'm an EE and I've NEVER heard the term used in reference to electronics, let alone used to describe standing waves. > It also is a nice mathematical means of modeling SWR at >any point on a transmisison line at a particular time. I know how to model standing waves, but how do you model a standing wave ratio? >Well if you knew CBers, they are not satidied getting 150 watts from >a transistor rated for 150 watts. But in my first paragraph I thought >I made it clear but evidently I did not. I guess I must strive to >better explain myslef. Agreed. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214617 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:45:34 -0700 Message-ID: <14g6c1teiq0lsngvkc856spqjuhk6mvaea@4ax.com> References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:25:23 GMT, james wrote in : >On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:12:31 GMT, "Tom Donaly" > wrote: > >>Nope. You need a course in electromagnetics. Who put all these >>ideas into your head, anyway? >>73, >>Tom >Electromagnetics Did "Electromagnetics" teach you that power = voltage * current? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214618 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:02:06 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:31:36 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:22:48 GMT, james wrote: > >>In electrical engineering it is the instantaneous power density of two >>signals passing at the same spot from two directions. That is called >>Convolution. > >Hi James, > >No, it is called Superposition, and that is done only with voltage or >current. What you are describing may be associated with the Fourier >convolution of power series - an entirely different field (and not >even additive). > >73's >Richard Clark, KB7QHC ***** Okay maybe I am not expressing my self correctly and right now I don't realy have the time or patience to look back through my old text books. It has been several years since I have done a lot of RF work and some things are not as fresh in my mind. It does seem like the less you use the more you forget or have trouble explaining what you think. Most of my work lately has been away from RF. james Article: 214619 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:15:23 -0700 Message-ID: <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> james wrote: > > Agreed that a rig cannot detect the difference between forward and > reflected power. If the reflection coeffiecient of the source is zero > then final stage of a transmiter will look purely resistive to any > power reflected by the load. Thereby that refelcted power is > dissapated as heat. Other reflection coefficients at the source will > yield lesser amounts of reflected power from the load as heat. > > james I've posted many, many times on this topic and have shown a number of cases where the load is perfectly matched but the power dissipated in the source resistor is less than or greater than the "reverse power", clearly demonstrating that this concept is incorrect. There are several examples at Food for thought.txt available at http://eznec.com/misc/food_for_thought/. Because I've posted so much on the topic I won't do it all again. But I know at least one person on this newsgroup would be glad to have an opportunity to express his views once again. I'll leave this discussion to those who want to revisit it; I don't. But I do want to caution readers that this view of "reflected power" is demonstrably incorrect. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214620 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: <3XHwe.35191$J12.4357@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:30:39 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:22:48 GMT, james wrote: > > >>In electrical engineering it is the instantaneous power density of two >>signals passing at the same spot from two directions. That is called >>Convolution. > > > Hi James, > > No, it is called Superposition, and that is done only with voltage or > current. What you are describing may be associated with the Fourier > convolution of power series - an entirely different field (and not > even additive). > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Convolution is a mathematical stunt you can perform with two functions: f(x)* g(x) = (integral from 0 to x) f(t)g(x-t) dt. At least that's how it's explained in Schaum's Outline book _Differential Equations_. It's pretty tough to see how it relates to power in a transmission line. Maybe someone has a use for it there. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 214621 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <0op0c1d8g1l9d4nku27v1nt8oroal2i1u1@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Correct cable for 920Mhz Mobile, Yagi Message-ID: <1dIwe.5942$ho.5388@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:50:54 -0400 Remember, the high gain antenna will have a narrow beam, The phone companies have used passive repeaters with good success. "Mark" wrote in message news:0op0c1d8g1l9d4nku27v1nt8oroal2i1u1@4ax.com... > On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 17:40:50 -0400, "Hal Rosser" > wrote: > > >This may well be an application for a passive repeater. > >2 yagis back to back > >one aimed at the nearest tower > >the other aimed at your house. > >mount it high > > That sounds like a good idea, should I mount the antenna's at a 90o > angle relative to each other, with the receiving antenna mounted to > look in the vertical plane (I know where the base station is). And the > transmitting antenna to give as much horizontal plane coverage as > possible, angled down to the areas I wish to receive telephone > coverage? Can I expect good results? Article: 214622 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wes Stewart Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 18:55:40 -0700 Message-ID: <47k6c1dhoomdmeqr85rviucapdebb9ie6o@4ax.com> References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:02:06 GMT, james wrote: > >Most of my work lately has been away from RF. Uh huh. And do you drive a Kenworth or a Volvo? Article: 214623 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wes Stewart Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:06:14 -0700 Message-ID: <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:07:26 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote: >On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:17:15 -0500, Cecil Moore >wrote in <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: > >>Frank Gilliland wrote: >>> Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since most >>> SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much shorter >>> than the operating wavelength. >> >>Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms >>and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >>from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. > > >The point is that the error is insignificant when the directional >coupler is much shorter than the wavelength. In a word, baloney. The error is independent of length. A zero length bridge calibrated at 75 ohm is in error when measuring in a 50 ohm system. Period. >The error is even more >insignificant when there are a host of variables and confounds between >the SWR meter and the transmitted field that can (and frequently do) >affect the objective -- field strength. Often, field strength is of zero importance. What do you do when the device under test isn't supposed to radiate? The simplest example of this would be a CATV system, yet VSWR is *extremely* important in cascaded networks. >It's much simpler (and just >plain logical) to measure the field strength directly instead of >measuring an abstract value halfway towards the objective and relying >on nothing more than speculation that the rest is working according as >expected. More baloney and it isn't even sliced. Article: 214624 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:42:53 -0700 Message-ID: <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:06:14 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote in <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com>: >On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 14:07:26 -0700, Frank Gilliland > wrote: > >>On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:17:15 -0500, Cecil Moore >>wrote in <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >> >>>Frank Gilliland wrote: >>>> Impedance matching of an SWR meter is generally unimportant since most >>>> SWR meters used for HF have a directional coupler that is much shorter >>>> than the operating wavelength. >>> >>>Point is that they are usually calibrated for Z0=50 ohms >>>and are in error when used in Z0 environments differing >>>from Z0=50 ohms, e.g. Z0=75 ohms. >> >> >>The point is that the error is insignificant when the directional >>coupler is much shorter than the wavelength. > >In a word, baloney. The error is independent of length. A zero length >bridge calibrated at 75 ohm is in error when measuring in a 50 ohm >system. Period. Prove it. >>The error is even more >>insignificant when there are a host of variables and confounds between >>the SWR meter and the transmitted field that can (and frequently do) >>affect the objective -- field strength. > >Often, field strength is of zero importance. What do you do when the >device under test isn't supposed to radiate? That device probably wouldn't make a very good radio, would it? > The simplest example of >this would be a CATV system, yet VSWR is *extremely* important in >cascaded networks. Thank you for making my point. >>It's much simpler (and just >>plain logical) to measure the field strength directly instead of >>measuring an abstract value halfway towards the objective and relying >>on nothing more than speculation that the rest is working according as >>expected. > >More baloney and it isn't even sliced. The word is "blarney". And although the syntax of my statement was somewhat 'convoluted', the logic is sound -- you can dyno your engine all day, but the only way to know for sure how fast you can get down the quarter mile is to run the race. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214625 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "AAA RF Products" Subject: FA: 1000 feet RG-223/U coax, mil spec. made in USA Message-ID: <3mJwe.6284$Eo.4625@fed1read04> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:08:51 -0700 Please see: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36338&item=7527498668&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW web: www.aaarfproducts.com email: sales@aaarfproducts.com call: 949 481 3154 fax: 949 388 5448 or mail: AAA RF Products, 949 Calle Amanecer, San Clemente, CA 92673 USA Article: 214626 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ray LewdAlien" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 20:10:48 -0700 Message-ID: worse than wtf? is wgaf? or Who Gives A F***? "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com... >I don't see the original posting here on rec.radio.amateur, but there >are a few misconceptions in the followups which should be addressed. > > Lancer wrote: >> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:13:35 GMT, james >> wrote: >> >> >>>On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 18:31:58 GMT, Lancer wrote: >>> >>> >>>>To have the measured SWR change with coax length, means you have >>>>current flowing on the outside of the coax. Your coax then becomes >>>>part of the antenna, so changing its length is changing the >>>>antenna >>>>length. This would change the feedpoint impedance and the SWR. > > That's correct, except that coax loss will also cause the SWR to > change with coax length. Loss will cause the SWR at the antenna > (load) to always be greater than at the transmitter (source). > >>>> >>>>Unless the line is carrying common mode currents that affect >>>>antenna impedance, changing coax length won't change the SWR, even >>>>if the >>>>antenna isn't matched. > > Again correct except for overlooking the effect of coax loss. > > But there's a real problem in communicating this. If you hook a 50 > ohm SWR meter to the input of a 75 ohm, 300 ohm, or line of any > impedance other than 50 ohms, the meter reading won't be the SWR on > the transmission line. That can mislead people into thinking that > the SWR is changing with line length when it actually isn't. > >>> >>>******** >>> >>>BS >>>Common mode currents on the shield of coaxial cables do not alter >>>the >>>feed impedance. Repeat ofter me. Common mode currents on the shield >>>of >>>coaxial cables do not alter the feed impedance. > > Why repeat it if it isn't true? The explanation given by Lancer was > correct. If you change the length of the antenna, the feedpoint > impedance will change. When you have common mode current flowing on > the feedline, the feedline is part of the antenna; changing its > length is changing the antenna's length. > >>> >>>The feed impedance of an antenna is solely determined by its >>>physical >>>length and any load impedances within the antenna structure. Load >>>impedances can be stray capacitance with ground via metal objects >>>within the near field of the antenna or even a building. > > You have to realize that a radiating feedline (one carrying common > mode current) IS part of the antenna structure. > >>> >>>The "Magic" of an electrical halfwave transmission line is at a >>>precise frequency, the reflection of the load to the transmistter >>>is >>>equal to the characteristic impedance of the transmission line >>>irregardless of what impedance it is terminated with. > > This is true only of a lossless line. If the load impedance isn't > far from the line's characteristic impedance (i.e., the line's SWR > is low), a small amount of loss won't make much difference. However, > if the line SWR is high, even a small amount of loss can make a > major change in the impedance seen at the line's input. The effect > is to skew the impedance toward the line's Z0. > >> Other lengths >>>have the load impedance reflected back and transformed by the >>>length >>>of the coax. The coax then acts as a transformer. It will either >>>step >>>up or step down the impeadnace of the load depending on the load >>>itself and the electrical length of the coax. > > It's a little more complicated than that. The line doesn't simply > multiply or divide the impedance by a constant, like a > transformer -- > except in the special case of a quarter electrical wavelength line > or odd multiples thereof. In other cases, the line does transform > the impedance, but in a complex way in which the resistance and > reactance are transformed by different factors. And reactance can be > present at a line's input even when the load is purely resistive. A > Smith chart is a good visual aid in seeing what happens. Assuming a > lossless line, the impedance traverses a circle around the origin. > The radius of the circle corresponds to the line's SWR. With the > chart, you can see all the combinations of R and X which a given > line can produce with a given load by changing its length. > Incidentally, loss causes the impedance to spiral inward toward the > origin as the line gets longer, showing how loss skews the input > impedance toward Z0. > >>> >>>All a tuner does is electrically lengthen or shoten the coax by >>>introducing a lumped LC constant that helps present a resistive >>>load >>>to the transmitter. The SWR at the feedline does not change. By >>>placing various different lengths of coax inline, you do the same >>>thing a tuner does, add a lumped LC constant. > > As can be seen from the Smith chart, you can produce only particular > combinations of R and X by changing the length of a line which has a > given load impedance. Unless you're unusually lucky or have planned > things carefully, none of these combinations will result in 50 + j0 > ohms, the usual goal, at the line's input. In contrast, a tuner is > able to adjust both R and X to produce, if designed right for the > application, 50 + j0 for a wide range of load impedances. > > It requires at least two adjustable components to achieve an > impedance match from an arbitrary load impedance, because there are > two separate quantities, R and X or impedance magnitude and phase, > which have to be adjusted. Changing the line length is only one > adjustment, so it can't be guaranteed to provide a match. If you > could also change the line's Z0, for example, or the length of a > stub, you'd have two adjustments and you could guarantee a match > providing you have enough adjustment range. > >>> >>>james >> >> >> So thats all my tuner does, lengthen or shorten the coax? >> >> Are you sure about that? > > Rest assured, that's not all it does. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL > Article: 214627 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:19:04 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c365a4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> james wrote: > Power is power. Phase is not a problem. Take the mafnitude of the > transmitted power and teh magnitude of the reflected power. The > results are phaseless. The magnitudes add linearly. Strangely enough, the results are not phaseless. The equation for reflected power at an impedance discontinuity is: Pref = P3 + P4 - SQRT(P3*P4)cos(theta) Where theta is the phase angle between V3 and V4, the associated reflected interferring voltages. Reference "Optics", by Hecht, Chapter 9 - Interference The last term in the equation above is known as the "interference" term. Unless you take the interference term into account, you don't have a ghost of a chance of ascertaining where the power goes. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214628 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:22:45 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1120082009.184166.165960@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c36680$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> K7ITM wrote: > Field strength alone is not acceptable to me as a means to adjust an > antenna load to a transmitter, ... Doesn't being located in the near field introduce a measurement error? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214629 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:32:04 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c368b0$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Tom Donaly wrote: > Cecil was talking about current, not power. You can't add > power the way you can voltage and current. That's absolutely correct. When one adds powers, one must include the interference term which takes care of conservation of energy. The equation is: Ptot = P1 + P2 + SQRT(P1*P2)cos(theta) where theta is the phase angle between V1 (associated with P1) and V2 (associated with P2). The last term is labeled the "interference term" and is absolutely necessary when adding powers. If the interference term is positive, the interference is constructive. If the interference term is negative, the interference is destructive. The best reference on interference and the adding of powers that I have found is Chapter 9 in "Optics", by Hecht. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214630 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 'Doc Subject: Re: Radials for a Vertical ? References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 03:37:48 GMT Gary, The general 'generic' answer is as many as you can stand to put in, and as long as you can make them. Usually, the length is a 1/4 wave (or sort of close) for the lowest frequency of use. Don't have that much room? Then make them as long as possible. The more you put down the 'better' it'll be. That's where the 'as many as you can stand' comes in. At some point you'll be ready to quit, so quit... 'Doc PS - The 'text book' answer? Not really, but probably the average one. Article: 214631 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:39:10 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > There lies our misperceptions; I was not referring to using an HF SWR > meter designed for coax and plugging it into 450 ohm ladder line. But I specifically stated above the Z0 environment was different >from 50 ohms. The same type of error happens when one uses a 50 ohm SWR meter in a 75 ohm coaxial line. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214632 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:40:59 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c36ac6$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> james wrote: > The problem is that current is not reflected back from the load, power > is. Thus the you can add magnitudes of power. If power (ExH) is reflected then, of course current is reflected. Powers can be added but you *must* include the interference term. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214633 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:44:59 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c36bb7$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> james wrote: > Agreed that a rig cannot detect the difference between forward and > reflected power. If the reflection coeffiecient of the source is zero > then final stage of a transmiter will look purely resistive to any > power reflected by the load. Thereby that refelcted power is > dissapated as heat. Other reflection coefficients at the source will > yield lesser amounts of reflected power from the load as heat. This is true for a source equipped with a circulator and load but most ham transmitters are not equipped with a circulator and load. You must take the phase of the voltages or currents into account in order to calculate the interference power term. Only then will you be able to tell where the power goes. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214634 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:00:17 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c36f4d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > But I do want to caution > readers that this view of "reflected power" is demonstrably incorrect. So is your concept of "sloshing" energy. Reflected energy waves are demonstrably real. One can find out exactly where the reflected power goes by taking the interference power terms into account. Optics engineers figured it out a long time ago. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214635 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:10:25 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > Wes Stewart wrote: >>In a word, baloney. The error is independent of length. A zero length >>bridge calibrated at 75 ohm is in error when measuring in a 50 ohm >>system. Period. > > Prove it. A 75 ohm bridge is expecting the ratio of voltage to current to be 75 for a matched system. In a 50 ohm matched system, the ratio of voltage to current will be 50. Therefore, the 75 ohm bridge won't be balanced. A 50 ohm bridge would be balanced. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214636 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:18:57 -0700 Message-ID: <11c6slkr0keg466@corp.supernews.com> References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> james wrote: snip > ***** > > Agreed that a rig cannot detect the difference between forward and > reflected power. If the reflection coeffiecient of the source is zero > then final stage of a transmiter will look purely resistive to any > power reflected by the load. Thereby that refelcted power is > dissapated as heat. Other reflection coefficients at the source will > yield lesser amounts of reflected power from the load as heat. > > james So if I have a perfect voltage source in series with a 50 ohm resistor, and I set the voltage source for 100Vrms (50W to the load, 50W to the source resistor) and I leave the output terminals open (100% reflected power) then the resistor will dissipate 100W? With no current flowing through it? Wow. I gotta review my basic electronics. ------------------------------------------- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Article: 214637 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:56:04 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c37c60$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > There are several > examples at Food for thought.txt available at > http://eznec.com/misc/food_for_thought/. Regarding errors in the first food_for_thought: A 100w source equipped with a circulator and load while looking into an open line, will generate 100w and dissipate 100w in the circulator load. That 100w is definitely not free power. It can be demonstrated to have made a round trip to the open end of the feedline and then back to the circulator load. The error in your thinking is that the source would see an open circuit when it is equipped with a circulator and load. It won't. It will *always* see the Z0 of the feedline as its load (assuming the circulator load equals Z0). That's the purpose of using the circulator and load - to allow the source to see a fixed load equal to Z0. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214638 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 00:03:58 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <42c36f4d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <76t6c19afu0m54sbj93690tnrfkpsokndk@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c37e3a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>Optics engineers figured it out a long time ago. > > And you have consistently failed in its demonstration - so what? I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214639 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:24:10 -0700 Message-ID: <9ov6c159evqcisqsg5fdq1file0qbe3ooj@4ax.com> References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:39:10 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote in <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >Frank Gilliland wrote: >> There lies our misperceptions; I was not referring to using an HF SWR >> meter designed for coax and plugging it into 450 ohm ladder line. > >But I specifically stated above the Z0 environment was different >from 50 ohms. The same type of error happens when one uses a >50 ohm SWR meter in a 75 ohm coaxial line. If that were true then the mere existence of standing waves could render any measurements worthless. Regardless, I did the experiment a long time ago -- take a 50 ohm SWR meter and plug it into a 75 ohm line -- it gives you almost the same measurement (in fact, I didn't see -any- difference at all). Any small error you might see is, as I said before, insignificant, especially considering the reason you are measuring SWR in the first place. The objective is simply to get the reading as low as practially possible. If you feel the need to quibble about a couple tenths of a point on a ratio then maybe you're spending a little too much time playing with the calculator instead of the antenna. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214640 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:53:24 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 23:10:25 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote in <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >Frank Gilliland wrote: > >> Wes Stewart wrote: >>>In a word, baloney. The error is independent of length. A zero length >>>bridge calibrated at 75 ohm is in error when measuring in a 50 ohm >>>system. Period. >> >> Prove it. > >A 75 ohm bridge is expecting the ratio of voltage to current >to be 75 for a matched system. In a 50 ohm matched system, the >ratio of voltage to current will be 50. Therefore, the 75 ohm >bridge won't be balanced. A 50 ohm bridge would be balanced. The bridge is calibrated to the impedance of the directional coupler (which is usually built to match the expected line impedance, but cannot be "zero length" in the present state of reality). If the impedance of the signal is different than what is expected by the bridge then your power measurements will probably be wrong (to what extent they are wrong may or may not be important). But if that's the case then any error will be the same by percentage and sign for both forward =AND= reflected power because the impedance of the signal is the same for both forward and reflected power. IOW, the ratio is the same -despite- the impedance. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214641 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: <4a47c11oql7odhd5dbjdf25qumj5uviauq@4ax.com> References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:39:52 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:53:24 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote: >cannot be "zero length" in the present state of reality). If the >impedance of the signal is different than what is expected by the >bridge then your power measurements will probably be wrong (to what >extent they are wrong may or may not be important). But if that's the >case then any error will be the same by percentage and sign for both >forward =AND= reflected power because the impedance of the signal is >the same for both forward and reflected power. IOW, the ratio is the >same -despite- the impedance. Lets make an assumption that we are talking about lossless lines. (If you are not, then the reflectometer does not provide an accurate indication of forward and reverse power.) If you use an ideal 50 ohm reflectometer (that means it is a negligibly short 50 ohm through line and it is nulled to show zero reflected power when connected to a 50+j0 load) to measure conditions in a line, the power flow at that point is the indicated Pf-Pr. If you had placed an ideal 75 ohm instrument in that spot, the readings are not necessarily in the same ratio (they are unlikely to be so), but the difference between Pf and Pr will be the same. The only other inference you can make from one instrument with regard to the other will be if one of the instruments shows zero reflected power, then you know the VSWR that the other instrument will indicate. Real instruments aren't of zero length, but some types of design are so close to it at low HF frequencies, you will not detect the error that is introduced. Owen -- Article: 214642 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:47:07 GMT Updated: On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:53:24 -0700, Frank Gilliland wrote: >cannot be "zero length" in the present state of reality). If the >impedance of the signal is different than what is expected by the >bridge then your power measurements will probably be wrong (to what >extent they are wrong may or may not be important). But if that's the >case then any error will be the same by percentage and sign for both >forward =AND= reflected power because the impedance of the signal is >the same for both forward and reflected power. IOW, the ratio is the >same -despite- the impedance. Lets make an assumption that we are talking about distortionless lines. (If you are not, then the reflectometer does not provide an accurate indication of forward and reverse power.) If you use an ideal 50 ohm reflectometer (that means it is a negligibly short 50 ohm through line and it is nulled to show zero reflected power when connected to a 50+j0 load) to measure conditions in a line, the power flow at that point is the indicated Pf-Pr. If you had placed an ideal 75 ohm instrument in that spot, the readings are not necessarily in the same ratio (they are unlikely to be so), but the difference between Pf and Pr will be the same. The only other inference you can make from one instrument with regard to the other will be if one of the instruments shows zero reflected power, then you know the VSWR that the other instrument will indicate. Real instruments aren't of zero length, but some types of design are so close to it at low HF frequencies, you will not detect the error that is introduced. Owen -- Article: 214643 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: pa0ary Subject: Re: FA: 1000 feet RG-223/U coax, mil spec. made in USA Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:46:22 +0200 Message-ID: References: <3mJwe.6284$Eo.4625@fed1read04> AAA RF Products wrote: > Please see: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36338&item=7527498668&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > > > web: www.aaarfproducts.com > email: sales@aaarfproducts.com > call: 949 481 3154 > fax: 949 388 5448 > or mail: AAA RF Products, 949 Calle Amanecer, San Clemente, CA 92673 USA > > 29 dollarcents per feet plus transport costs for old RG223 coax cable? What's the price of similar brand new cable per feet? -- 73 de Ary, pa0ary "The amateur is progressive.....He keeps his station abreast of science. It is well-built and efficient. His operating practice is above reproach." (As formulated by Paul M. Segal, W9EAA in the year 1928) Article: 214644 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:36:21 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9ov6c159evqcisqsg5fdq1file0qbe3ooj@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c3e841$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>But I specifically stated above the Z0 environment was different >>from 50 ohms. The same type of error happens when one uses a >>50 ohm SWR meter in a 75 ohm coaxial line. > > If that were true then the mere existence of standing waves could > render any measurements worthless. Regardless, I did the experiment a > long time ago -- take a 50 ohm SWR meter and plug it into a 75 ohm > line -- it gives you almost the same measurement (in fact, I didn't > see -any- difference at all). Please run it again in the following configuration: Xmtr--1/4WL 75 ohm line--SWR meter--1/4WL 75 ohm line--50 ohm load The SWR meter will read 2.25:1 when the actual SWR is 1.5:1 Xmtr--1/2WL 75 ohm line--SWR meter--1/2WL 75 ohm line--50 ohm load The SWR meter will read 1:1 when the actual SWR is 1.5:1 > Any small error you might see is, as I > said before, insignificant, especially considering the reason you are > measuring SWR in the first place. A 50% error in SWR reading is NOT insignificant. > The objective is simply to get the > reading as low as practially possible. If you feel the need to quibble > about a couple tenths of a point on a ratio then maybe you're spending > a little too much time playing with the calculator instead of the > antenna. A 50% error in SWR is NOT a couple tenths of a point. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214645 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:41:39 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c3e97e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>A 75 ohm bridge is expecting the ratio of voltage to current >>to be 75 for a matched system. In a 50 ohm matched system, the >>ratio of voltage to current will be 50. Therefore, the 75 ohm >>bridge won't be balanced. A 50 ohm bridge would be balanced. > > The bridge is calibrated to the impedance of the directional coupler > (which is usually built to match the expected line impedance, but > cannot be "zero length" in the present state of reality). If the > impedance of the signal is different than what is expected by the > bridge then your power measurements will probably be wrong (to what > extent they are wrong may or may not be important). But if that's the > case then any error will be the same by percentage and sign for both > forward =AND= reflected power because the impedance of the signal is > the same for both forward and reflected power. IOW, the ratio is the > same -despite- the impedance. The error is NOT the same percentage. In a matched 50 ohm system, the 75 ohm bridge reflected power reading will be off by an infinite percentage, i.e. division by zero. > If you don't believe me, try it yourself. I have tried it and you are wrong. Maybe you should try it. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214646 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:45:20 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <4a47c11oql7odhd5dbjdf25qumj5uviauq@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c3ea5c$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Owen wrote: > Real instruments aren't of zero length, but some types of design are > so close to it at low HF frequencies, you will not detect the error > that is introduced. The error that we are talking about has nothing to do with the length of the directional coupler. The error that we are talking about has everything to do with an infinite error in the measurement of reflected power. Infinite errors are hard to sweep under the rug. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214647 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "DougSlug" References: <3mJwe.6284$Eo.4625@fed1read04> Subject: Re: FA: 1000 feet RG-223/U coax, mil spec. made in USA Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:51:21 -0400 One reference point: Mouser Electronics sells 1000' of Alpha 9223 for US$1844 excluding shipping. Belden 9223 (1000') there goes for $670. Seems like the $290 price is pretty good. - Doug "pa0ary" wrote in message news:da0eva$h0p$1@news2.zwoll1.ov.home.nl... > AAA RF Products wrote: >> Please see: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36338&item=7527498668&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW >> >> >> >> web: www.aaarfproducts.com >> email: sales@aaarfproducts.com >> call: 949 481 3154 >> fax: 949 388 5448 >> or mail: AAA RF Products, 949 Calle Amanecer, San Clemente, CA 92673 USA >> >> > > 29 dollarcents per feet plus transport costs for old RG223 coax cable? > What's the price of similar brand new cable per feet? > > -- > 73 de Ary, pa0ary > > "The amateur is progressive.....He keeps his station abreast of science. > It is well-built and efficient. > His operating practice is above reproach." (As formulated by Paul M. > Segal, W9EAA in the year 1928) Article: 214648 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1120133283.128078.50070@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:13:58 -0500 Message-ID: <42c3f0b0_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01B1_01C57D4B.AA89E470 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "W8JI" wrote: > If the directional coupler is calibrated at 50 ohms and you use it in a > 75 ohm system you won't get a total reflected null even if the 75 ohm > line has a 1:1 SWR. _______________ For another viewpoint, consider an RF directional coupler design commonly used in FM & TV broadcast stations. The coupler itself is equally accurate in all commonly used coax impedances (50, 60, 75 ohms etc), as it is always mounted on a line section having the same nominal impedance as the transmission line that follows it. A gif graphic clip with a description of it is attached. If that doesn't work for you, see the full description on page 5 at the following URL: http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/catalogs/General.pdf A directional coupler or bridge built on a fixed line impedance, and inserted in a system of some other impedance value will introduce measurement errors. The impedance mismatch causes amplitude and phase ambiguities for the incident and reflected waveform samples -- which aren't necessarily the same in both directions. 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T7kyeATRhCFwNF6AAm7VH9NgBCM2CpjiXPVgHwXjYMX1kk15hnVTRkLBDBxZT/jWExtGECWpOMkY Ag+pKZxAAeTwAyPGCQ9QYvgBAz9ACWWwhELklG9ph3F0Gw+xFvcETQpGDiVWUipFAefYkXVkkvXA Bg8AWyEAT3PgDg8QLEYAIEYAJYwIl5HZXfrRK2zwGza8aU/3UQ/EEBx9iW8o8Cs6ApmkMwf4OApA hAKMmThGEJDkEAIbSQH8JZmzCYWUoBQAqTSZYk+t8BSN4AVh5ipsIJr01Aq62Qj20ROQ8wTmcWI/ MD+jSZvRuVZ65FbO0W+BoYpt9RnQKZ3dyVbbaRzf2YowdVOk6BzeiZ6MFybcWTojQyWUeEQW1hGG F57paZ/3iZ/5qZ/7yZ/96Z//CaABKqADSqAFaqAHiqAJqqALyqAN6qAPCqERKqEPGhAAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_01B1_01C57D4B.AA89E470-- Article: 214649 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:42:08 -0400 Message-ID: <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> Much noise has been radiated. I speculate that a reminder about what linearity means might get things back on track. In a linear network (lumped or distributed) superposition (of linear signals) produces correct results. The last statement works in both directions. (The degree to which a network is linear is the same as the degree to which superposition is valid.) (If one supplies a large enough signal to any network, it will become non-linear - as in letting-out-the-smoke-put-in-at-the-factory.) The catch in all of the above is that superposition only applies to linear signals and power (however indicated) is not a linear signal. Power, which could be complex power S = V*I* (the phasor voltage time the conjugate of the phasor current) or the magnitude of S (apparent power) or the real part of S ("real" power), simply does not obey superposition even in a network that is linear. Bottom line: assuming the use of networks (lumped or distributed) that are essentially linear, one is only allowed to combine phasor voltages or phasor currents (but not their product nor the square of such linear signals). Once combined, the resultant voltage and the resultant current may be used to find a measure of power. (The "combined" mentioned must be a linear, additive process.) It seems to me that Roy, and others, have plowed this ground many times. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message > > I've posted many, many times on this topic and have shown a number of > cases where the load is perfectly matched but the power dissipated in > the source resistor is less than or greater than the "reverse power", > clearly demonstrating that this concept is incorrect. There are several > examples at Food for thought.txt available at > http://eznec.com/misc/food_for_thought/. > > Because I've posted so much on the topic I won't do it all again. But I > know at least one person on this newsgroup would be glad to have an > opportunity to express his views once again. I'll leave this discussion > to those who want to revisit it; I don't. But I do want to caution > readers that this view of "reflected power" is demonstrably incorrect. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214650 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:23:43 -0400 Reading the mail appearing in this thread is more fun than watching Saturday Night Live! Walt, W2DU Article: 214651 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Higgins Subject: Re: Radials for a Vertical ? Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:24:52 GMT On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:02:02 -0400, in , Gary wrote: >I'm thinking of buying a used Hustler 6BTV vertical ( 80 thru 10 >coverage) and was wondering about how many radials I'd need and how >long they should be ? If I do get it, I'd be ground mounting the >vertical and planting the radials about 1 - 2 inches deep in soil >that's mainly clay. 5BTV here, ground mounted. I found that 4 radials cut for 40M and buried as you paln to do gave a marked improvement on all bands. More and longer if you can. You'll need to readjust the antenna for best SWR after installing radials. Article: 214652 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: pa0ary Subject: Re: FA: 1000 feet RG-223/U coax, mil spec. made in USA Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:29:29 +0200 Message-ID: References: <3mJwe.6284$Eo.4625@fed1read04> DougSlug wrote: > One reference point: > > Mouser Electronics sells 1000' of Alpha 9223 for US$1844 excluding shipping. > Belden 9223 (1000') there goes for $670. Seems like the $290 price is > pretty good. > > - Doug > > > "pa0ary" wrote in message > news:da0eva$h0p$1@news2.zwoll1.ov.home.nl... > >>AAA RF Products wrote: >> >>>Please see: >>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36338&item=7527498668&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW >>> >>> >>> >>>web: www.aaarfproducts.com >>>email: sales@aaarfproducts.com >>>call: 949 481 3154 >>>fax: 949 388 5448 >>>or mail: AAA RF Products, 949 Calle Amanecer, San Clemente, CA 92673 USA >>> >>> >> >>29 dollarcents per feet plus transport costs for old RG223 coax cable? >>What's the price of similar brand new cable per feet? >> >>-- >>73 de Ary, pa0ary >> >>"The amateur is progressive.....He keeps his station abreast of science. >>It is well-built and efficient. >>His operating practice is above reproach." (As formulated by Paul M. >>Segal, W9EAA in the year 1928) > > > So for a radioham, what makes this a better cable, than for example Aircell 7 cable? -- 73 de Ary, pa0ary Article: 214653 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:41:05 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> J. Mc Laughlin wrote: > Bottom line: assuming the use of networks (lumped or distributed) that > are essentially linear, one is only allowed to combine phasor voltages or > phasor currents (but not their product nor the square of such linear > signals). Power can certainly be combined, just not superposed. Here is the irradiance equation from _Optics_, by Hecht. Itot = I1 + I2 + Sqrt(I1*I2)cos(theta) Irradiance is power/unit-area. The last term is known as the "interference" term. Hecht provides separate chapters for interference and superposition, the best treatment of those two subjects of which I am aware. Here is the transmission line forward power equation from Dr. Best's QST transmission line article. Ptot = P1 + P2 + Sqrt(P1*P2)cos(theta) It is virtually identical to the irradiance equation above. The last term is known to be the "interference" term and for a Z0-matched system, THETA EQUALS ZERO, so for a Z0- matched system, a complete analysis can be done using only the forward and reflected power magnitudes. This is something I and others have been saying for years and it has been called "gobbledegook" (sic) by Roy (and worse by others) even though Roy admits that he doesn't care to understand where the power goes. > It seems to me that Roy, and others, have plowed this ground many times. Yes, and they are still not 100% correct. Roy has said: 'I personally don't have a compulsion to understand where this power "goes".' Too bad he doesn't have that compulsion because, with a small amount of mental effort, he surely would have figured it out before me - if by no other means, simply by referencing the chapter on EM wave interference in _Optics_. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214654 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <67p7c1ppcdm5piv42018h3qekfbt7bp339@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Brown, Lewis & Epstein Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:09:14 -0400 Message-ID: <4012f$42c40c4c$97d55b49$28481@ALLTEL.NET> Thank you Sir! "Dan Richardson arrl net>" wrote in message news:67p7c1ppcdm5piv42018h3qekfbt7bp339@4ax.com... > There has been considerable discussion on the antenna news group > regarding ground systems for monopole antennas. Article: 214655 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:05:57 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments Message-ID: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> The complete text referenced here can be accessed at: http://eznec.com/misc/food_for_thought/ The first one is "Forward and reverse power" and is much easier to read if it is copied-and-pasted into Word. The first comment is just a nit: "(the current isn't transformed by the half wavelength line either.)" A 1/2 wavelength of transmission line reverses the phase of the current, certainly a 180 degree "transformation". The main point centers around this false statement: "While the nature of the voltage and current waves when encountering an impedance discontinuity is well understood, we're lacking a model of what happens to this "reverse power" we've calculated." Absolutely false! We are not lacking a model. We have time- tested models that people with closed minds simply refuse to consider. One such model is the s-parameter analysis presented in HP's App Note 95-1, available on the web. Quoting: "Another advantage of s-parameters springs from the simple relationship between the variables a1, a2, b1, and b2, and various *POWER WAVES*. ... s-parameters are simply related to power gain and mismatch loss, quantities which are often of more interest than the corresponding voltage functions." (emphasis mine) The model is there. Concrete brains refuse to take a look and instead call it "gobbledegook" (sic). There's another model that agrees 100% with an s-parameter analysis and it is from the field of optics, covered in detail in _Optics_, by Hecht. Non-glare glass works the same way as a 1/4WL matching section in a transmission line. Again the model is there, just ignored by gurus on this newsgroup which leads to demonstrably wrong conclusions on their parts. What happens to the energy in EM light waves has been known and understood for many decades and cannot be understood without an understanding of the laws of physics governing interference between EM waves. Likewise, what happens to the energy in EM RF waves cannot be understood without an understanding of those same laws of physics. There are many posters to r.r.a.a who have no clue about the laws of physics governing interference between EM waves. That ignorance is the entire problem with this discussion. Solution: Alleviate the ignorance. Quoting again from Roy's web page: 'ANY MODEL PRESENTED TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT HAPPENS TO "FORWARD" AND "REVERSE" POWER AT TRANSMISSION LINE ENDS HAD BETTER GIVE RESULTS THAT AGREE WITH THE ABOVE TABLE.' And, of course, the two above power/energy models agree exactly with Roy's table but that doesn't seem to matter one iota. They are still "gobbledegook" (still sic). -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214656 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:09:59 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <1120146118.249168.323730@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42c41a6c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> K7ITM wrote: > Yes, I really have adjusted a meter which uses the variable capacitor, > too. In the old Heathkit SWR meter were instructions to install either two 50 ohm resistors for a 50 ohm SWR meter or two 75 ohm resistors for a 75 ohm SWR meter. We used a lot of RG-11 back in those days. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214657 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:08:05 -0400 Message-ID: SWR=Strewn With Rumor "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:TfTwe.22091$B_3.3770@fe05.lga... > Reading the mail appearing in this thread is more fun than watching Saturday > Night Live! > > Walt, W2DU > > Article: 214658 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: james Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <3XHwe.35191$J12.4357@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:14:01 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 01:30:39 GMT, "Tom Donaly" wrote: > >Convolution is a mathematical stunt you can perform with >two functions: f(x)* g(x) = (integral from 0 to x) f(t)g(x-t) dt. >At least that's how it's explained in Schaum's Outline book >_Differential Equations_. It's pretty tough to see how it relates >to power in a transmission line. Maybe someone has a use for it >there. >73, >Tom Donaly, KA6RUH **** Yes Tom Convultion was the wrong term to use. I made a mistake because i type as i think and on occasion hit send before i reread what i have written. I still contend that a sinusoidal wave travelling down a coax is comprised of perpendicular(orthogonal) E and H fields. The these vector fields that induce sinusodial current and voltage potential vectors in and between the shield and center conductors as the wave travels. Both the source and reflected waves are comprised of two vector fields, E and H. Granted this is true only when the load reflection coefficient is not zero. In that case of zero, then there is no reflected power. It is possible to derive from the vector current and vector voltage a magnitude of those vectors and thus a produce two scalar quantities that can be pluged into Ohm's Law and derive an instantaineous power at a given time and position on the coax. That both source and reflected sinusoidal current and voltage can have derived scalar values. These values can be directly added. This all started from an SWR question. I contend that the instantaineous power at any given time and position of the coax can be expressed as the sum of the magnitudes or scalar quantities of the source and reflected powers. If you are wanting just the magnitudes of the power, then this should work. james Article: 214659 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:18:37 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:41:05 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > >>Power can certainly be combined, just not superposed. Here is >>the irradiance equation from _Optics_, by Hecht. >>Itot = I1 + I2 + Sqrt(I1*I2)cos(theta) > > According to this formula, for two laser beams of 100W each, without > any phase difference, we can illuminate a target with > Itot = 100 + 100+ Sqrt(100*100)cos(0) > Itot = 300W Sorry, I made a mistake in the equation. Please forgive my omission. Here's the correct equation: Itot = I1 + I2 + 2*Sqrt(I1*I2)cos(theta) So if theta equals zero, Itot would be 400w, not 300w. This is the power of superposition of coherent waves. When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant power is indeed 400w and must be supplied by the sources or supplied by destructive interference from somewhere else. This is all explained in _Optics_, by Hecht. Hows about reading it so I won't have to explain superposition to you? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214660 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:22:55 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c41d74$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Itot = I1 + I2 + Sqrt(I1*I2)cos(theta) Sorry, should be: Itot = I1 + I2 +2*SQRT(I1*I2)cos(theta) > Ptot = P1 + P2 + Sqrt(P1*P2)cos(theta) Sorry should be: Ptot = P1 + P2 + 2*Sqrt(P1*P2)cos(theta) -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214661 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:43:24 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >>Non-glare glass works the same >>way as a 1/4WL matching section in a transmission line. > > One trivial example that you thoroughly bumbled through every mistake > possible, arriving at no answer before abandoning. It was an example for Jim Kelley to respond to. He declined to discuss it, nobody else (including you) responded with any technical content, so the thread was abandoned. If you have anything technical to contribute, feel free to fire it up again. That happens a lot on this newsgroup. When someone realizes that he is about to be proven wrong in public, he simply goes away - human nature. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214662 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:14:36 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c42991$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Tom Donaly wrote: > You're confusing the > fear of being proven wrong with just giving > up in disgust at your silly antics. More of the same personal stuff. How about some technical content for a change? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214663 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bob" Subject: wireless headphones Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:49:39 GMT Is there a way to increase the range of a sennheiser wireless headphones modle rs45? Article: 214664 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:57:02 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Can U solve this? Message-ID: <42c43383$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> It would be interesting to find out who, among the experts on this group, cannot solve this problem for Vfwd1, Ifwd1, Vref1, Iref1, Vfwd2, Ifwd2, Vref2, Iref2 including magnitudes and phase angles. Given: a Z0-match at an impedance discontinuity in a transmission line. Source is unknown. Load is unknown. Lengths of transmission lines are unknown. Reference phase: Vfwd1 is incident upon the Z0-match at a reference phase angle of zero degrees. ---50 ohm feedline---+---200 ohm feedline--- Pfwd1=100w--> Pfwd2=156.25w--> <--Pref1=0w <--Pref2=56.25w Contrary to what some people assert, is it possible to calculate the magnitudes and phases of the above voltages and currents knowing only the Z0's and the forward and reflected powers? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214665 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:08:52 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c43649$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Certainly no one stands any chance of understanding your explanations > given the continuing goof-ups. Richard, I cannot recall you and I ever disagreeing upon a technical subject. Your objections are just personal pot shots. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214666 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:28:24 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c43ade$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >>power is indeed 400w > > Yowza! You, with W's help, can roll your Social Security over into > investments in the CB amplifier Market. Note the following extremely important qualification. The extra power must come from somewhere, either from the two sources or from destructive interference. So says Hecht. When you phasor add 100v to 100v, what V^2/Z0 do you get? >>and must be supplied by the sources or or supplied by >>destructive interference from somewhere else. > > [Hecht rolling his eyes] So, this means that Hecht's formula only > works for steady state? :-) Yep, irradiance is a quantity averaged over time. It is steady-state by definition, an accumulated effect. > If both are 100W pulses, and the lasers are off before the target are > pulse illuminated -um- > 1.) 100W > 2.) 200W > 3.) 400W > 4.) no hundred W You will get interference rings of 400w/unit-area and rings of 0w/unit-area all averaging out to 200w total. All this is covered in _Optics_. Please spare us your ignorance and read the book. If the sources are incapable of supplying the extra power, For every P1+P2+2*SQRT(P1*P2), i.e. constructive interference, there is a P1+P2-2*SQRT(P1*P2), i.e. destructive interference. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214667 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: 30 Jun 2005 13:24:55 -0500 Message-ID: <87slyzr9c8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> >When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >power is indeed 400w This is correct if the two beams are coherent and have the same polarization. Very hard to do at optical frequencies, much easier at lower frequencies. Tor N4OGW Article: 214668 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:43:13 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c42991$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c43e57$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:14:36 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > >>More of the same personal stuff. How about some >>technical content for a change? > > RE: > http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/weblaser.GIF > (which I am sure you will soon hustle off in embarrassment) > > For an angle of incidence of 30° The angle of incidence is always 90 degrees. It is drawn that way because it cannot be drawn in one dimension. This is typical of physics textbook drawings. An angle of incidence of 30 degrees is irrelevant to this particular example. > How much power is reflected from Surface A (first incidence)? The reflectance is 0.01, so 1%. First incidence 0.01 watts > How much power is reflected from Surface B (first incidence)? The reflectance is 0.01, so 1%. First incidence is 0.0099 watts Steady-state after re-reflection is 0.01010101 watts > How much power is transmitted through all interfaces? One watt net to the "load". The steady-state forward power in the thin film is 1.010101 watts of which 0.010101 is a steady-state internal reflection >from surface B. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214669 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:45:13 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <87slyzr9c8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> Message-ID: <42c43ecf$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu wrote: >>When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >>power is indeed 400w > > This is correct if the two beams are coherent and have the > same polarization. Very hard to do at optical frequencies, much > easier at lower frequencies. As in coherent RF waves confined to a transmission line, eh? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214670 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: wireless headphones Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:51:56 -0400 Message-ID: <2834$42c43f4e$97d55b49$11428@ALLTEL.NET> Yes "Bob" wrote in message news:TgWwe.29046$IL3.14685@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... > Is there a way to increase the range of a sennheiser wireless headphones > modle rs45? > > Article: 214671 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: 30 Jun 2005 14:57:15 -0500 Message-ID: <87mzp7r52c.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <87slyzr9c8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> >>>When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >>>power is indeed 400w >> >>This is correct if the two beams are coherent and have the >>same polarization. Very hard to do at optical frequencies, much >>easier at lower frequencies. > >Hi Tor, > >We've seen the math pencil-whipped both ways now to cover all the >available answers. The devil's in the details that are not found in: >>Itot = I1 + I2 + 2*Sqrt(I1*I2)cos(theta) >not to mention the glaring mistakes of the first posting of this >>formula. So? Superposition works. With a yagi antenna, through superposition you get an EM wave which has larger intensity in certain directions than for a single dipole with the same power. Someone far away can't tell the difference between switching to a yagi and turning on a linear. What the formula doesn't say is that in any real system, the wave must have a finite extent (not be a infinite plane wave). Then there must be destructive interference in some directions. So there isn't a problem with conservation of energy. Tor N4OGW Article: 214672 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: 30 Jun 2005 15:01:00 -0500 Message-ID: <87irzvr4w3.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <87slyzr9c8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> <42c43ecf$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> >>When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >> power is indeed 400w > This is correct if the two beams are coherent and have the > same polarization. Very hard to do at optical frequencies, much > easier at lower frequencies. >As in coherent RF waves confined to a transmission line, eh? That's nothing new. Why do they call them "waveguides" :)? Jackson has a chapter with all the hairy details. Tor N4OGW Article: 214673 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:18:18 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <4d77c$42c2b92d$97d55b49$22834@ALLTEL.NET> <42c316d4$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <11c6bmq78l1uj40@corp.supernews.com> <11c6hteod3em9f9@corp.supernews.com> <11c7tl59qsm5jbf@corp.supernews.com> <42c40597$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c41c73$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <87slyzr9c8.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> <42c43ecf$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <87irzvr4w3.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> Message-ID: <42c454a0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu wrote: >>>When you superpose two 100w coherent laser beams, the resultant >>>power is indeed 400w >> >>This is correct if the two beams are coherent and have the >>same polarization. Very hard to do at optical frequencies, much >>easier at lower frequencies. > >>As in coherent RF waves confined to a transmission line, eh? > > That's nothing new. Then why are some of the "experts" on this newsgroup protesting it so much? Some don't seem to comprehend the energy situation associated with superposition of EM fields. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214674 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <8gk6c1pt7i62gnv22g9rdkh5e7tsq9l611@4ax.com> <3bm6c11l19tukieu0c96mvrn0hk9l64sqr@4ax.com> <42c371ad$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:36:33 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 06:47:07 GMT, Owen wrote: >The only other inference you can make from one instrument with regard >to the other will be if one of the instruments shows zero reflected >power, then you know the VSWR that the other instrument will indicate. As Cecil has hinted (42c43383$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net), you can also infer that the impedance at the point where you have two sets of Pf,Pr readings is that the impedance (R, X) is one of two values (which can be visualised as the intersection of two circles on a Smith Chart), one only in the cases VSWR1*VSWR2=Zo1/Zo2 (or the inverse) (which can be visualised as the kissing of two circles on a Smith Chart). The latter includes the case above where one or other instruments indicates VSWR=1, but is more exact because one of the circles is infinitely small. These cases are not reliably of practical value, the conversion of error in the measurements made with each instrument, into error in the estimated R and X at the point could be huge. So, I "correct" my statement to "The only other inference that you can reasonably reliably make from one instrument with regard to the other will be if one of the instruments shows zero reflected power, then you know R and X, and the VSWR that the other instrument should indicate. Thanks Cecil. Owen -- Article: 214675 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:47:19 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c42991$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c43e57$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c45b6d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > But, hey, what's 2% error in a conservation of energy equation? The error is yours. During steady-state, the forward power in the thin film is 1.0101 watts. 1% of that is 0.0101 watts. 1.0101 - 0.0101 = one watt delivered to the "load". 100% accuracy is guaranteed because it is a mental conceptual exercise. To summarize: Forward power in air is one watt. Reflected power in air is zero watts. Forward power in the thin-film is 1.010101010101010101 watts. Reflected power in the thin-film is 0.10101010101010101 watts. Power delivered through Surface B is exactly one watt, exactly the output of the laser. Exactly the difference between the steady-state forward and reflected power in the thin-film. > Well, for 1W of light and presuming cancellation (you cannot achieve > full cancellation) That's the great thing about a mental conceptual example. Full cancellation is guaranteed. > So, energy is conserved, and there is no such thing as complete > cancellation. True for real world stuff. False for mental conceptual examples like the one being discussed. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214676 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 15:52:23 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c42991$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c43e57$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c45b6d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c45c9d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Forward power in the thin-film is 1.010101010101010101 watts. > Reflected power in the thin-film is 0.10101010101010101 watts. Darn, missed a zero. Should be 0.010101010101010101 watts. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214677 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:11:27 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d68c1dhinm8sjf75mvfhvft062r1n3uoc@4ax.com> <42c42241$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c42991$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c43e57$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c45b6d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42c46115$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > And what purpose is served through this prostitution of citations? Well Richard, since you are being so picky, I am going to have to insist that you prove that you exist. :-) -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214678 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:14:11 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42c460a3$0$32198$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Walter Maxwell wrote: > Reading the mail appearing in this thread is more fun than watching Saturday > Night Live! > > Walt, W2DU > > Some of the people involved appear to be listening from inside Faraday Cages! tom K0TAR Article: 214679 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Gilliland Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:39:22 -0700 Message-ID: <7ep8c1t5qeua75jhra7vivotnb7e6pl121@4ax.com> References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9ov6c159evqcisqsg5fdq1file0qbe3ooj@4ax.com> <42c3e841$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:36:21 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote in <42c3e841$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net>: >Frank Gilliland wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >>>But I specifically stated above the Z0 environment was different >>>from 50 ohms. The same type of error happens when one uses a >>>50 ohm SWR meter in a 75 ohm coaxial line. >> >> If that were true then the mere existence of standing waves could >> render any measurements worthless. Regardless, I did the experiment a >> long time ago -- take a 50 ohm SWR meter and plug it into a 75 ohm >> line -- it gives you almost the same measurement (in fact, I didn't >> see -any- difference at all). > >Please run it again in the following configuration: > >Xmtr--1/4WL 75 ohm line--SWR meter--1/4WL 75 ohm line--50 ohm load > >The SWR meter will read 2.25:1 when the actual SWR is 1.5:1 > >Xmtr--1/2WL 75 ohm line--SWR meter--1/2WL 75 ohm line--50 ohm load > >The SWR meter will read 1:1 when the actual SWR is 1.5:1 I'm not going to argue this -- either you can play with theory and speculate about the results, or you can do the experiment yourself, observe the empirical evidence, and -then- use theory to explain the results. When you get around to doing the latter give me a holler in rrcb since I'm done cross posting on this topic. And BTW, the best location for the directional coupler is at the feedpoint of the antenna. Barring that, the next best place is at the transmitter. Regardless of it's location, you should -never- leave the coupler floating with the coax or you will end up with results like what you describe above. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214680 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gary Cavie Subject: 3-M impedance bridge? Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:44:23 +0100 Message-ID: Hi, Does anybody have any experience with the above, as discussed in The Antenna Experimenter's Handbook, by Peter Dodd G3LDO? I'm planning to build a version, with a 4-channel A-D to take the measurements, and display the results on the PC. A further stage of development will be to add a DDS as the signal source, giving me a PC- based antenna analyser. Assuming I go down this route, what do people think about using the voltage derived from input power (Ea if you know the circuit) as the reference for the A-D, giving me a proportional figure for the other 4 measurements without having to scale in software? More to the point, has anybody actually played around with this setup, and would like to share tips? Thanks Gary, M0JJH Article: 214681 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:55:13 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9ov6c159evqcisqsg5fdq1file0qbe3ooj@4ax.com> <42c3e841$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <7ep8c1t5qeua75jhra7vivotnb7e6pl121@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42c46b3d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Frank Gilliland wrote: > Regardless of it's location, you should -never- leave the > coupler floating with the coax or you will end up with results like > what you describe above. The results above obey the laws of physics. What laws do your results obey? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214682 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? From: Steveo Date: 30 Jun 2005 21:57:02 GMT Message-ID: <20050630175702.405$o0@newsreader.com> References: <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <1120006270.046937.70390@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42c221c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c31581$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c36a59$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9ov6c159evqcisqsg5fdq1file0qbe3ooj@4ax.com> <42c3e841$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <7ep8c1t5qeua75jhra7vivotnb7e6pl121@4ax.com> <42c46b3d$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Frank Gilliland wrote: > > Regardless of it's location, you should -never- leave the > > coupler floating with the coax or you will end up with results like > > what you describe above. > > The results above obey the laws of physics. What laws do your > results obey? > You guys are just itchin' for a visit from the coax length police. :D Article: 214683 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Modeling TL "dielectric" loss Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:45:08 GMT I am trying to reconcile the following in respect of for practical low loss RF transmission lines: In the RLGC model for Zo and gamma, it is generally accepted a good approximation is that R=c1*f**0.5, G=c2*f, and L and C are constant. If the term (G+j*2*pi*f*C) can be rearranged as (2*pi*f*C(G/(2*pi*f*C)+j)), and substituting c2*f for G, written as (2*pi*f*C(c2/(2*pi*C)+j)). If we regard G to be principally the loss in the dielectric , then c2/(2*pi*C) should give us the dielectric loss factor, D, 1/Q, tan(delta), dissipation factor, power factor, whatever you want to call it. alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo It also seems generally accepted that Matched Line Loss (MLL) can be modeled well by the expression MLL=k1*f**0.5+k2*f. (Remember that alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo) It follows then that c2=k2/(10*log(e)*Ro), and that (G+j*2*pi*f*C)= 2*pi*f*C(k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C)+j) which implies that D is k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C). Problem is, that whilst PE has D somewhere about 2e-5 up to 1GHz, the loss model for RG58CU (PE dielectric) indicates D 2e-3 much much less than would be expected from D of the PE dielectric alone. Any thoughts. Is there an inconsistency between the explanation that G is principally due to D of the dielectric material, or I have I messed the maths up? Owen -- Article: 214684 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Modeling TL "dielectric" loss Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:46:39 GMT I am trying to reconcile the following in respect of for practical low loss RF transmission lines: In the RLGC model for Zo and gamma, it is generally accepted a good approximation is that R=c1*f**0.5, G=c2*f, and L and C are constant. If the term (G+j*2*pi*f*C) can be rearranged as (2*pi*f*C(G/(2*pi*f*C)+j)), and substituting c2*f for G, written as (2*pi*f*C(c2/(2*pi*C)+j)). If we regard G to be principally the loss in the dielectric , then c2/(2*pi*C) should give us the dielectric loss factor, D, 1/Q, tan(delta), dissipation factor, power factor, whatever you want to call it. alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo It also seems generally accepted that Matched Line Loss (MLL) can be modeled well by the expression MLL=k1*f**0.5+k2*f. (Remember that alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo) It follows then that c2=k2/(10*log(e)*Ro), and that (G+j*2*pi*f*C)= 2*pi*f*C(k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C)+j) which implies that D is k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C). Problem is, that whilst PE has D somewhere about 2e-5 up to 1GHz, the loss model for RG58CU (PE dielectric) indicates D of 2e-3, much much worse than would be expected from D of the PE dielectric alone. Any thoughts. Is there an inconsistency between the explanation that G is principally due to D of the dielectric material, or I have I messed the maths up? Owen -- Article: 214685 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <42C0DC03.9C0032AF@yapoo.com> <42c18a0e.20437562@2355323778> <0j73c1homgvfodro996cva8ud526f3fv24@4ax.com> <11c3l6jmhjctl60@corp.supernews.com> <42c460a3$0$32198$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: SWR - wtf? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:36:51 -0400 "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:42c460a3$0$32198$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > Walter Maxwell wrote: >> Reading the mail appearing in this thread is more fun than watching Saturday >> Night Live! >> >> Walt, W2DU > > Some of the people involved appear to be listening from inside Faraday Cages! > > tom > K0TAR Faraday used the cages after the monkeys were through with them. The monkeys left them so fouled up that EM waves couldn't penetrate the walls. Walt, W2DU Article: 214686 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Modeling TL "dielectric" loss Message-ID: <4o29c1t14v38kgd5e9b7sftu7b17bodvu8@4ax.com> References: Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:16:44 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:46:39 GMT, Owen wrote: >alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo >It also seems generally accepted that Matched Line Loss (MLL) can be >modeled well by the expression MLL=k1*f**0.5+k2*f. > >(Remember that alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo) Sorry, I mixed the notation using . for multiply operator instead of *. the first quoted line should have been deleted, and the second should read: (Remember that alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G*NomZo) -- Article: 214687 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mark" References: Subject: Radial Pattern For Vertical Antenna Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:51:10 -0700 Here is an additional question. I have to mount my 40/80 vertical in a place where it can be hidden by trees, which means against the back fence in my yard. I can only put radials to cover 180 degrees. I assume my signal will radiate best in that direction. What kind of radiation will I get toward the side of the antenna without the radials? Mark, KJ7BS Article: 214688 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: Radial Pattern For Vertical Antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:58:21 -0400 Message-ID: <880e6$42c4952f$97d55b49$8221@ALLTEL.NET> RF "Mark" wrote in message news:Cs0xe.14415$ro.8260@fed1read02... > Here is an additional question. > > I have to mount my 40/80 vertical in a place where it can be hidden by > trees, which means against the back fence in my yard. I can only put > radials to cover 180 degrees. I assume my signal will radiate best in that > direction. What kind of radiation will I get toward the side of the antenna > without the radials? > > Mark, KJ7BS > > Article: 214689 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: <14306-42C496D9-252@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil. W5DXP wrote: "A 1/2-wavelength of transmission line reverses the phase of the current, certainly a 180 degree "transformation"." Yes. One of the baluns in the ARRL Antenna Book uses an extra180-degrees of 75-ohm coax to drive an element in a 300-ohm balanced antenna from an unbalanced 75-ohm aource. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214690 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:43:53 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <14306-42C496D9-252@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42c49fda$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Yes. One of the baluns in the ARRL Antenna Book uses an extra180-degrees > of 75-ohm coax to drive an element in a 300-ohm balanced antenna from an > unbalanced 75-ohm aource. > > Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI > A standard in the VHF and up world; it is used in the T-match. Question - has anyone ever done any analysis or testing of what happens to a T-match when run off the center frequency of the balun? tom K0TAR Article: 214691 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wes Stewart Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 19:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <14306-42C496D9-252@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> <42c49fda$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:43:53 -0500, Tom Ring wrote: >Richard Harrison wrote: > >> Yes. One of the baluns in the ARRL Antenna Book uses an extra180-degrees >> of 75-ohm coax to drive an element in a 300-ohm balanced antenna from an >> unbalanced 75-ohm aource. >> >> Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI >> > >A standard in the VHF and up world; it is used in the T-match. > >Question - has anyone ever done any analysis or testing of what happens >to a T-match when run off the center frequency of the balun? Your question is not clear. Are you asking about tee-match performance or balun performance? There has been an examination of the balun performance. "The Half-Wave Balun: theory and application", J Nagle, K4KJ, ham radio magazine, Sept 1980 pp 32-35 Article: 214692 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:20:39 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Food for thought: Forward and reverse power" comments References: <42c4197b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <14306-42C496D9-252@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> <42c49fda$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <42c4a877$0$22200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Wes Stewart wrote: >>A standard in the VHF and up world; it is used in the T-match. >> >>Question - has anyone ever done any analysis or testing of what happens >>to a T-match when run off the center frequency of the balun? > > > Your question is not clear. Are you asking about tee-match performance > or balun performance? > > There has been an examination of the balun performance. > > "The Half-Wave Balun: theory and application", J Nagle, K4KJ, ham > radio magazine, Sept 1980 pp 32-35 > > Sorry, I thought it was clear. The T-match, which has the balun as a part. The balun was mentioned as the reference point for the center frequency. tom K0TAR Article: 214693 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff Maass" References: Subject: Re: wireless headphones Message-ID: <9S1xe.27411$7X1.11841@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 02:27:17 GMT Stand on top of a tower. "Bob" wrote in message news:TgWwe.29046$IL3.14685@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... > Is there a way to increase the range of a sennheiser wireless headphones > modle rs45? > > Article: 214694 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Modeling TL "dielectric" loss Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:07:20 -0700 Message-ID: <11c9gbor38jn1da@corp.supernews.com> References: I saw this apparent discrepancy many years ago, and wondered the same thing. I've come to believe that the extra loss is due to the braided shield, not some unknown additional dielectric loss. There's very little quantitative information about that loss mechanism, but from time to time I've come across comments that it can be substantial. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Owen wrote: > I am trying to reconcile the following in respect of for practical low > loss RF transmission lines: > > In the RLGC model for Zo and gamma, it is generally accepted a good > approximation is that R=c1*f**0.5, G=c2*f, and L and C are constant. > > If the term (G+j*2*pi*f*C) can be rearranged as > (2*pi*f*C(G/(2*pi*f*C)+j)), and substituting c2*f for G, written as > (2*pi*f*C(c2/(2*pi*C)+j)). > > If we regard G to be principally the loss in the dielectric , then > c2/(2*pi*C) should give us the dielectric loss factor, D, 1/Q, > tan(delta), dissipation factor, power factor, whatever you want to > call it. > > alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo > It also seems generally accepted that Matched Line Loss (MLL) can be > modeled well by the expression MLL=k1*f**0.5+k2*f. > > (Remember that alpha= 0.5*R/NomZo+0.5*G.NomZo) > > It follows then that c2=k2/(10*log(e)*Ro), and that (G+j*2*pi*f*C)= > 2*pi*f*C(k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C)+j) which implies that D is > k2/(10*log(e)*Ro)/(2*pi*C). > > Problem is, that whilst PE has D somewhere about 2e-5 up to 1GHz, the > loss model for RG58CU (PE dielectric) indicates D of 2e-3, much much > worse than would be expected from D of the PE dielectric alone. > > Any thoughts. Is there an inconsistency between the explanation that G > is principally due to D of the dielectric material, or I have I messed > the maths up? > > Owen > -- Article: 214695 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bob" References: <9S1xe.27411$7X1.11841@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com> Subject: Re: wireless headphones Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:14:03 GMT thanks alot "Jeff Maass" wrote in message news:9S1xe.27411$7X1.11841@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... > > Stand on top of a tower. > > > "Bob" wrote in message > news:TgWwe.29046$IL3.14685@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... >> Is there a way to increase the range of a sennheiser wireless headphones >> modle rs45? >> >> > > Article: 214696 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Modeling TL "dielectric" loss Message-ID: References: <11c9gbor38jn1da@corp.supernews.com> Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:30:00 GMT On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:07:20 -0700, Roy Lewallen wrote: >I saw this apparent discrepancy many years ago, and wondered the same >thing. I've come to believe that the extra loss is due to the braided >shield, not some unknown additional dielectric loss. There's very little >quantitative information about that loss mechanism, but from time to >time I've come across comments that it can be substantial. Roy, I thought about the effects of through braid loss. I guess any loss that increases proportionately to f will be captured in the loss model and allocated against k2. Below are k2 factors for a few cables of interest. The first three use PE dielectic, and there is a big difference between RG58 and RG213 where the dimesions of the dielectric are quite different. A small difference between RG213 and RG214 with similar dielectric size, but 214 has double braiding, suggesting that braid loss / leakage may one of the factors. Belden 8262 (RG58C/U) 2.95e-10 Belden 8267 (RG213) 8.23e-11 Belden 8268 (RG214) 7.17e-11 The next bunch don't use braid, but use a corrugated solid outer conductor. Not a dramatic change in k2 considering how much larger 6-50 is compared to 4-50. LDF4-50 6.15e-12 LDF6-50 4.60e-12 Could the distribution of the electric field intensity in the dielectric be a factor, will the dielectric exposed to the highest field intensity dissipate the most power? Owen -- Article: 214697 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 'Doc Subject: Re: Radial Pattern For Vertical Antenna References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 04:37:12 GMT Mark, Good question! There will be ~some~ gain/loss of signal in various directions. Probably won't be much gain or loss, just depends on 'other' things (how near the fence, fence made of wood/metal, and other mysterious things). Wouldn't worry too much about it, and if it really bothers you, sneak a radial or two under the fence for a ways. Hide it well and don't get caught running stuff in your neighbor's yard! 'Doc