Article: 214881 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:25:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <2kroc19319ui4fk7q6b2im6k4fda47s136@4ax.com> My program assumes line Zo is purely resistive. But at HF it is practically impossible to tell the difference in line loss between an angle of 0 degrees and 1 degree which is the range of Zo angles involved. I have the exact formula for any line but its far too complicated to write here. I didn't use it in my program as it would have meant another input value for no useful purpose. ---- Reg ---------------------------------------------------------- "Owen" wrote in message news:2kroc19319ui4fk7q6b2im6k4fda47s136@4ax.com... > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:48:53 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" > wrote: > > >Owen, > > > >Your formula is too short to be anything but an approximation. It may > >be a very good approximation. On the other hand it may contain > >exactly the same errors as whatever you may have checked it against. > > > >The exact formula is exceedingly involved and occupies about half a > >dozen lines of source code in new program SWRARGUE which by > >coincidence I have just placed in my website. > > I have calculated the loss using P=Real(V*I*) at the two points, and > it is long winded. Michaels approach produces the same result, and the > coding is more elegant, probably faster to calculate. He is a SK, so I > can't ask him, but in the hope that it is well known, someone might > know of the derivation. > > > > >You can check your formula against my program. Let us know how you get > >on. > > Your calculator does not allow complex Zo does it? Doesn't that mean > it assumes a distortionless line. I am calculating loss in the general > case. > > Thanks... > > Owen > > -- Article: 214882 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: References: <36roc1lcdt1q62kb2qijlm3f4scq80eo7i@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 00:51:05 GMT On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:17:17 -0700, Wes Stewart wrote: > >I think "Computation of Impedance and Efficiency of Transmission Line >with High Standing-Wave Ratio", W.W. Macalpine, Transactions of the >AIEE, vol. 72, pp 334-339; July, 1953 might be of interest to you. > >The same reference is used as the basis for the section >"Transformation of Impedance on Lines With Highh SWR" in the ITT >handbook. Yes, I saw (and I think, understand) the formulas under the heading "Power and Efficiency" in my ed #6 of the ITT H'book. Not wanting to express the algorithm in pseudo code (AKA ugly ASCII math) here, 'cos it *will* be unreadable, I have pasted the formula I have worked up, and a plot of it in a particular scenario at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm . Given, that to support this, there is are functions for Gamma(load) and Gamma(x), it is a whole bunch of code, and Michaels approach is attractively simple, and it produces exactly the same answer on this scenario. Owen -- Article: 214883 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400 "Owen" wrote in message news:25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com... > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:06:13 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" > wrote: > > > >As I understand it, Owen, a line has to be lossless for Xo to be 0, while > >distortionless lines have loss but have equal series R and shunt G. All > > Walt, I learnt that a distortionless line is one where attenuation and > phase velocity are constant for all frequencies, and that requires > that R/XL=G/XC in the RLGC model of a lines characteristics, and the > result is that Zo is purely real. > > A lossless line is a special case of a distortionless line. > > >lines that I've measured have a small negative X, that would be zero if the > >line were lossless. So I'd have to say that the material in Appendix is is > >correct for standard lines. Distortionless lines are normally found only in > >long-distance phone lines used at voice frequencies, not RF. Or am I missing > >something? > > If you like, I am saying your approach is valid for lossless lines, it > is also valid for all distortionless lines, but I think it is not > accurate for lines in the general case because it isn't correct if > Xo!=0. > > Owen Owen, if X = 0 there is no attenuation, but you're saying my material is invalid if X is not 0? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Walt, W2DU Article: 214884 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Support for a 90 ft folded dipole - suggestions From: "Z.Z." References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:30:35 GMT Bob Miller wrote: > > There's a nice A-frame wood mast in the ARRL Handbook that's about 40 > feet high, and can be made from just a few pieces of lumber. > If you can find nice, clear 2x3's 20+ feet long. Maybe back in the 50's when those first appeared in the Handbook, but not any more... Article: 214885 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: <3i1pc1llb0khd322qqtlfn2a9vet93a50r@4ax.com> References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:44:32 GMT On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >> If you like, I am saying your approach is valid for lossless lines, it >> is also valid for all distortionless lines, but I think it is not >> accurate for lines in the general case because it isn't correct if >> Xo!=0. >> >> Owen > >Owen, if X = 0 there is no attenuation, but you're saying my material is >invalid if X is not 0? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Walt, I don't think that Xo=0 implies zero attenuation, but it is true that if the line has zero attenuation that Xo=0. I think the method in your appendix is true when Xo=0, and an approximation where Xo!=0. I have just added a function (DLoss) to calculate loss as per your appendix to the graphic at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm , and it can be seen that in this (perhaps extreme) case, it is not a very good approximation. I also added the same calcs for f=100MHz and Zo is much closer to real, and it can be seen the approximation is much closer. Owen -- Article: 214886 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:49:11 GMT "Owen" wrote in message news:e1loc1554j1hec26o62l5c7sn5ugublgrp@4ax.com... > > Apparently, Michaels described in "Technical Correspondence" in QST > NOV 1997 a method for calculating loss on a mismatched line. > > I don't have the article, and haven't been able to find it on the net, > so I am working from references to it that I have seen, mainly in > Usenet. > > Apparently, the method involves calculation of a factor (let's call it > MR) as MR=|(Zl-Zo*)/(Zl+Zo)|, and the line loss between two points is > given by 10*log((1-MR1**2)/(1-MR2**2)) where MR1 and MR2 are the > values for MR at points 1 and 2. > > I have compared the results of this on lines with Xo<0 and high VSWR, > and the results are identical to calcuating the loss by subtraction of > Real(VI*) at point 1 from Real(VI*) at point 2. > > Has anyone a link to, or a reference to the derivation of the formula? > > Owen In my first edition of "Paul and Nasar", p 335, dealing with lossy transmission lines; there is a footnote as follows: For the interested reader, a very thorough discussion of the derivation the transmission-line equations is given in R. B. Adler, L. J. Chu, and R. M. Fano , "Electromagnetic Energy Transmission and Radiation", Wiley, New York, 1960, chap. 9. I have never seen the reference, so cannot comment, but may be available in a university library. Wonder if that is the Fano in "Fano's limit". 73, Frank Article: 214887 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> <3i1pc1llb0khd322qqtlfn2a9vet93a50r@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:05:03 -0400 "Owen" wrote in message news:3i1pc1llb0khd322qqtlfn2a9vet93a50r@4ax.com... > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" > wrote: > > > >> If you like, I am saying your approach is valid for lossless lines, it > >> is also valid for all distortionless lines, but I think it is not > >> accurate for lines in the general case because it isn't correct if > >> Xo!=0. > >> > >> Owen > > > >Owen, if X = 0 there is no attenuation, but you're saying my material is > >invalid if X is not 0? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. > > Walt, I don't think that Xo=0 implies zero attenuation, but it is true > that if the line has zero attenuation that Xo=0. > > I think the method in your appendix is true when Xo=0, and an > approximation where Xo!=0. > > I have just added a function (DLoss) to calculate loss as per your > appendix to the graphic at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm , > and it can be seen that in this (perhaps extreme) case, it is not a > very good approximation. > > I also added the same calcs for f=100MHz and Zo is much closer to > real, and it can be seen the approximation is much closer. > > Owen > I'll have to study your math, Owen, to let it sink in. I don't get it on the first glance. Walt Article: 214888 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <1120500565.034856.267090@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4qmkdpfrb723j7u.060720051413@kirk> Subject: Re: Electrical length Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:50:39 -0400 We need you to prove you are who you say you are, so please answer these questions: 1. Do you know who your daddy is ? 2. If so, can you spell his last name ? 3. How many Floridians does it take to cast one Republican vote? 4. Do you have anything against Republican crickets? "George Washington Bush" wrote in message news:4qmkdpfrb723j7u.060720051413@kirk... > Hal; > > Now don't be picking on my good buddy arnie, he is doing a fine job > out there in california for me. > > We need him to get those drivers licenses for the illegal aliens. By > this time next year I would like to have all the truck drivers which > are buying homes, cars and sending their children through college > reduced to receiving welfare checks. > > It doesn't take a genius to drive a truck and that is one of the last > areas a working fellow can still earn a half decent living, time for > those illegals to start driving those big rigs for a minimum wage. > > With those illegals living 10 family's to a home they can get by on a > lot less. > > Get with the plan man. We used to export our standard of living to the > rest of the world pulling them out from under poverty, disease and > death, but that got darn tiring (and our profits from ripping them off > under that system were too low.) We replaced that tired old plan with > the new one, 'import 3'rd world conditions to america.' Now get out > there, support your president, your congress and the supreme court and > employ an illegal alien today. > > I am counting on you to be a team player here hal. > > Now put down those silly crickets and the thermometer and get to work > man! > > G.W.B. > > "Hal Rosser" wrote in message > news:bjXye.46379$Tt.26779@bignews3.bellsouth.net... > > Yah > > That's why I use a thermometer - > > - or - make Arnold count the chirps for me. > > He's a real chirpinator > > > > > > > > "Arnold Schwarzenegger" wrote in message > > news:ir7wmcjgcvulegj.050720052100@kirk... > >> only girly men count cricket chirps > >> > >> arnold > >> > > > > > > > > > Article: 214889 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> <3i1pc1llb0khd322qqtlfn2a9vet93a50r@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:50:45 GMT On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:05:03 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >> >> I have just added a function (DLoss) to calculate loss as per your >> appendix to the graphic at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm , >> and it can be seen that in this (perhaps extreme) case, it is not a >> very good approximation. >> >> I also added the same calcs for f=100MHz and Zo is much closer to >> real, and it can be seen the approximation is much closer. >> >> Owen >> >I'll have to study your math, Owen, to let it sink in. I don't get it on the >first glance. Sorry all, The function for DLoss on the web page was for the additional loss due to SWR. I have now added a term to the DLoss function to include the matched line loss and updated the web page. The outcome hasn't changed in that the two methods of calculating loss only agree if Zo is real. Owen -- Article: 214890 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: References: <6okoc1pojb9035o93ute5s9a838kdkorkt@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 03:57:37 GMT On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:42:36 -0600, "Topaz305RK" wrote: >Wow, what a great set of pictures of "how things used to was"!!!!!!!!!!!! > >You really had to be dedicated and love what you were doing. > > Or to be just a little crazy... but as they say, you don't have to be crazy to be a ham, but it helps. Field day activities were fun. Somehow replacing cubic metres of field equipment with a shoebox sized "black box" that does 100W of SSB from 160m to 7ocm has eliminated much of the fun. We are seduced by radios with lots of features in silicon, often without much regard for how it performs as a receiver, things that we can't fix, whether because of a lack of knowledge, test jigs, alignment / diagnostic software or board rework equipment. We have come a long way! Owen -- Article: 214891 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mr Fed UP" References: Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:38:42 -0500 Oh Dang!! Now I have to go add some more to my car... WB9SMX Just hate to be out done,, get me one o them buses to have room too ;-) BTW That wasn't Dales Dead Bug van from King of the Hill was it? lol "Christopher O'Callaghan" wrote in message news:dagtcc$dt9$1@reader01.news.esat.net... > never saw a car with 6 big antennas(3-4 feet)and 3 small ones all on mag > mounts...WOW > > > Article: 214892 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 07:58:12 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Mechanical switch ratings References: Message-ID: <42cd27e5$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Larry Benko wrote: > I have used some toggle switches as RF switches in the HF range in the > past without problems but want to use one in a somewhat higher power > application. Toggle switches generally are only rated at voltages such > as 120VAC (50-60Hz assumed), 250VAC (50-60Hz again), or 30VDC. Looking > at the specs for vacuum relays show that a current derating of ~3X when > going from 60Hz to 30 MHz seems about average. Is there any reason why > a similar derating would not apply to a mechanical toggle switch. E.g. > would a miniture toggle switch rated at both 250VAC 2A and 120VAC 5A > handle 100W at 28MHz (50 ohm impedance assumed)? I was not going to do > any hot switching. Something like that usually works for matched lines. Where I got into trouble is trying to use toggle switches on ladder-line carrying an SWR of 20:1. It fried an RS heavy duty toggle switch. You can avoid such trouble by switching to knife switches with their wider spacings. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214893 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:43:34 -0400 "Me" wrote in message news:Me-B48492.14414606072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > In article <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com>, > Roy Lewallen wrote: > > > That's really just one antenna with six feedpoints. > > > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL > > Maybe a Phased Array for signal tracking........ > > > Me who used to drive one of those for the FCC........... Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and during WW2. Walt, w2du Article: 214894 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <42CD45C3.7D72BFA3@noaspamforme.com> From: luke Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <11bv2l61vm5red4@corp.supernews.com> <11c0kb4s0hdg1d9@news.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:09:56 GMT Your trees will SNAP and your tower will fall down. Sure, your antenna have little wind load, however, how much wind load is the TOWER ? Please inventory your gear for the ESTATE sale ! Luke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes trees do sway but as the photos show they don't sway where the guys are attached. Article: 214895 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:23:24 -0500 Message-ID: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: Owen wrote: "Has anuypne a link to or reference to derivation of the formula?" My 19th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book treats additional power loss due to SWR on page 24-10. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214896 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:41:30 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Walt, As suggested, I looked up your paper in your website about "Additional power lost in trans-lines due to SWR." It is applied only to coaxial lines, of course, because the usual SWR meter cannot be used on balanced twin lines. Actually it applies to all lines. I think your calculating formula is an approximation. It is due to the SWR meter discarding all information about the PHASE ANGLE of reflections. ie., the angle of the reflection coefficient (Gamma) from which you have used to calculate SWR in your explanation. Gamma has an angle which can lie in any of the four quadrants. Theoretically this cannot be neglected. I can't prove the approximation because I havn't the mental energy to do the exact calculations involved. For interest, my program SWRARGUE calculates the exact power lost in the line for any SWR for a given input power of 100 watts. Power lost is then a percentage of input power. Transmission efficiency then follows. Note that the internal resistance of the transmitter or conjugate matching is immaterial. It does this by first of all calculating the input impedance of the line, when terminated with the antenna feedpoint impedance, in the form of Rin + jXin. >From the input power it then calculates the line input current and volts. >From normal transmission line formulae it then calculates line output current and volts. It then calculates the power dissipated in the antenna input resistive component. This is the power radiated. The difference between radiated power and 100 watts line input must be the power lost in the line. Line efficiency and the decibels follow. The excess loss due to SWR is the difference between actual loss and the line's overall matched attenuation, which is an input to the program. Which, to me, appears to be an artificial way of looking at things and your approximation arises from it. The way to prove the point is to calculate the excess loss due to SWR your way and compare with the results from my program. I wouldn't be surprised if there's no significant difference. The matter about the imaginary meanings of SWR and confusing reflected power is not worth the trouble of arguing about. ---- ........................................................... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ........................................................... Article: 214897 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:54:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> "Richard Harrison" wrote in message news:21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net... > Owen wrote: > "Has anuypne a link to or reference to derivation of the formula?" > > My 19th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book treats additional power loss > due to SWR on page 24-10. > > Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI > ======================================== On this subject the only hope of discovering the exact loss on a line with SWR is to do an exact complex mathematical analyis for yourseslf and hope you don't make any mistakes. For starters, the calculated curves shown in ARRL publications over the years, as plagiarised by the RSGB, are in error. But they are near enough not to lose any sleep about. Why the importance attatched to this line feature I can't imagine. --- Reg. Article: 214898 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:30:34 -0400 Message-ID: Reg, our thoughts and prayers go out to your countrymen after the cowardly attacks on your transportition system "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dajpga$fq2$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Walt, > > As suggested, I looked up your paper in your website about "Additional > power lost in trans-lines due to SWR." > Article: 214899 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W9DMK (Robert Lay) Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:39:40 GMT Message-ID: <42cd84b2.26069916@news.crosslink.net> References: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:48:53 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: >Owen, > >Your formula is too short to be anything but an approximation. It may >be a very good approximation. On the other hand it may contain >exactly the same errors as whatever you may have checked it against. > >The exact formula is exceedingly involved and occupies about half a >dozen lines of source code in new program SWRARGUE which by >coincidence I have just placed in my website. Dear Reg, I do not believe in coincidence (that's how we knew when the 2nd airplane flew into the World Trade Center, that it was not an accident.) Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html Article: 214900 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:43:22 -0400 "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dajpga$fq2$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Walt, > > As suggested, I looked up your paper in your website about "Additional > power lost in trans-lines due to SWR." > > It is applied only to coaxial lines, of course, because the usual SWR > meter cannot be used on balanced twin lines. Actually it applies to > all lines. Reg, my Appendix does not apply only to coaxial lines. Like you also said, it applies to all lines. Balanced twin lines also have SWR, as you already know, but my words didn't limit measurements of SWR only to coaxial lines. There are ways of measuring the SWR on open-wire lines other than instruments limited to use on coaxial lines. > I think your calculating formula is an approximation. It is due to the > SWR meter discarding all information about the PHASE ANGLE of > reflections. ie., the angle of the reflection coefficient (Gamma) from > which you have used to calculate SWR in your explanation. No approximations at all, Reg. As you know, reflection is the cause of SWR, not the reverse. Further, the coefficient of the reflection that results in SWR is the magnitude of the complex value in polar form. Therefore the magnitude of the SWR is determined by the complex reflection coefficient, resulting in the correct value, not an approximation. The complex reflection coefficient can be used to determine the complex impedance. SWR simply lacks the angle of the polar information, and is thus unable to supply the required information to determine complex impedance. Thus the value of SWR does provide the polar magnitude of the complex reflection coefficient, not just the |rho| value. > Gamma has an angle which can lie in any of the four quadrants. > Theoretically this cannot be neglected. And I submit, Reg, that although the numerical value of the angle is omitted, the effect of the angle has not been neglected. > I can't prove the approximation because I havn't the mental energy to > do the exact calculations involved. I'm saving you the mental energy, Reg, because there are no approximations involved--the exact calculation has been made. For interest, my program SWRARGUE calculates the exact power lost in > the line for any SWR for a given input power of 100 watts. Power lost > is then a percentage of input power. Transmission efficiency then > follows. Note that the internal resistance of the transmitter or > conjugate matching is immaterial. I downloaded your SWRARGUE program, Reg, and ran it. The numbers using your program and those using my Appendix 8 are identical. snip > The excess loss due to SWR is the difference between actual loss and > the line's overall matched attenuation, which is an input to the > program. Which, to me, appears to be an artificial way of looking at > things and your approximation arises from it. As I said above, Reg, the values obtained using your program and those using my Appendix 8 are identical. My method does not reveal any approximate values, so it cannot be an artificial way of viewing the procedure. > The way to prove the point is to calculate the excess loss due to SWR > your way and compare with the results from my program. As I just said, I have compared my results with those of your program and the resulting numbers are identical. > I wouldn't be surprised if there's no significant difference. The > matter about the imaginary meanings of SWR and confusing reflected > power is not worth the trouble of arguing about. Not only is there no significant difference, Reg, there is NO difference. Think about it. Walt, W2DU Article: 214901 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: References: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:27:37 GMT On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:23:24 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) wrote: >Owen wrote: >"Has anuypne a link to or reference to derivation of the formula?" > >My 19th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book treats additional power loss >due to SWR on page 24-10. Richard, I have an 18th edition, and the formula it gives does not factor in the angle of the reflection, and so is an approximation. I don't know if that applies to the 19th edition. Back to my original post, I was not in search of a formula for an exact solution, nor a reason to want an exact solution, but rather whether anyone has seen the derivation of Michaels formula quoted in QST Nov 97. Thanks for your help. Owen -- Article: 214902 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:16:23 -0400 Message-ID: <552ef$42cda9bb$97d55c31$21581@ALLTEL.NET> And your liberal use of profanity accomplishes the exact same thing. Can you not express yourself without sounding like you belong on Ch 19? "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:hdidnQkZw8WROFDfRVn-2A@comcast.com... ***** Profanity snipped ****** > The problem is that every ham's action reflects on all of us, both in > the positive and in the negative respect. His installation which flies > in the face of everything we know about tower safety and precautions > makes all of us look no better than the average dumbass CB trucker. > > > 73 .... WA7AA Article: 214903 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: <_hize.31144$B_3.26260@fe05.lga> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:46:36 -0400 "Owen" wrote in message news:q97rc1h10bg5bipdedp2trcqfpcm46ephs@4ax.com... > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:23:24 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard > Harrison) wrote: > > >Owen wrote: > >"Has anuypne a link to or reference to derivation of the formula?" > > > >My 19th edition of the ARRL Antenna Book treats additional power loss > >due to SWR on page 24-10. > > Richard, I have an 18th edition, and the formula it gives does not > factor in the angle of the reflection, and so is an approximation. > > I don't know if that applies to the 19th edition. > > Back to my original post, I was not in search of a formula for an > exact solution, nor a reason to want an exact solution, but rather > whether anyone has seen the derivation of Michaels formula quoted in > QST Nov 97. > > Thanks for your help. > > Owen > Well, Owen, if you believe the expressions I presented in Reflections 2 are approximate, then why do I get the correct answers? Walt, W2DU Article: 214904 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:59:15 GMT In article , "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and during WW2. > > Walt, w2du "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in NewsGroups.... but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the signal.... Me Article: 214905 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: <87hrc19htqbt563esvircc4qin1h5j43lm@4ax.com> References: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <_hize.31144$B_3.26260@fe05.lga> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 00:25:37 GMT On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:46:36 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >Well, Owen, if you believe the expressions I presented in Reflections 2 are >approximate, then why do I get the correct answers? It seems to me that the method requires that rho is not greater than one (otherwise the denominator (1-rho2**2) becomes negative, which is a nonsense). This hints that it does not apply in the general case where rho *can* be greater than 1, and is therefore probably limited to cases of distorionless line (Xo=0). To avoid publishing "ugly" maths here, I have put a page up at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm with a bunch of expressions for conditions on the modelled line, including functions for power flow at an arbitrary point, Loss calculated from powerflow at two points and loss based on your loss formula + matched line loss. The graphs show the loss from point x to the load, x is 0 at the load and negative toward the source. The algorithms produce quite different results. If I ignore Xo (ie force Zo to be real), then both algorithms produce the same results. Have I made a mistake in the maths, or in modelling the scenario? Owen -- Article: 214906 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <21513-42CD56FC-70@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <_hize.31144$B_3.26260@fe05.lga> <87hrc19htqbt563esvircc4qin1h5j43lm@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: <3Zjze.1144$yL4.573@fe02.lga> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:40:49 -0400 "Owen" wrote in message news:87hrc19htqbt563esvircc4qin1h5j43lm@4ax.com... > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:46:36 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" > wrote: > > > >Well, Owen, if you believe the expressions I presented in Reflections 2 are > >approximate, then why do I get the correct answers? > > It seems to me that the method requires that rho is not greater than > one (otherwise the denominator (1-rho2**2) becomes negative, which is > a nonsense). This hints that it does not apply in the general case > where rho *can* be greater than 1, and is therefore probably limited > to cases of distorionless line (Xo=0). > > To avoid publishing "ugly" maths here, I have put a page up at > http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm with a bunch of expressions > for conditions on the modelled line, including functions for power > flow at an arbitrary point, Loss calculated from powerflow at two > points and loss based on your loss formula + matched line loss. > > The graphs show the loss from point x to the load, x is 0 at the load > and negative toward the source. > > The algorithms produce quite different results. If I ignore Xo (ie > force Zo to be real), then both algorithms produce the same results. > > Have I made a mistake in the maths, or in modelling the scenario? > > Owen Thanks for responding, Owen, but I'm going to be otherwise occupied until Saturday, so the fact that I don't respond immediately doesn't mean that I'm ignoring you. Walt Article: 214907 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: SWR losses in 300 ohm TV twinlead vs coax Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:18:12 -0400 Message-ID: <48nrc1lt2gp0v0lntelou088gd0v7j1co4@4ax.com> I have installed a 135 foot dipole which I tune for all bands but 6 and 20 (I have dipoles cut for those bands.) Well, one of the locals and I were discussing a loop antenna. He insists that the loop is better fed with 65 feet of 75 ohm coax and then 50 ohm coax to the tuner for the radio. I was saying there would be less loss by using a 300 ohm twin lead since it was being tuned for all the HF bands and 6 meters, with open wire or ladder line being better options. He insists that if the loop is properly made, it is better to feed it with the 75/50 combo which properly matches the antenna. any thoughts? -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214908 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <552ef$42cda9bb$97d55c31$21581@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:31:31 -0400 Message-ID: <70f97$42cde587$97d55c31$7403@ALLTEL.NET> I guess then we are to conclude that you can not express outrage at a situation with out gutter language. You Sir are the one with flawed logic, regardless of the perceived offense one sees in the construction of a tower, it conveys no license to assail the members of the group with gutter language. Might I suggest a course in creative writing at your local adult education center? It may expand your vocabulary beyond the profane utterances we have seen so far. "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:ad-dnTSQS_2CTVDfRVn-hw@comcast.com... > Fred W4JLE wrote: > > > And your liberal use of profanity accomplishes the exact same thing. Can you > > not express yourself without sounding like you belong on Ch 19? > > Nice logic, albeit not much surprising in these "morality" driven times: > "liberal use of profanity" is of the same impact and scope as erecting > an unsafe tower. > Article: 214909 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:42:53 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: SWR losses in 300 ohm TV twinlead vs coax References: <48nrc1lt2gp0v0lntelou088gd0v7j1co4@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42cde92d$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Buck wrote: > I have installed a 135 foot dipole which I tune for all bands but 6 > and 20 (I have dipoles cut for those bands.) > > Well, one of the locals and I were discussing a loop antenna. He > insists that the loop is better fed with 65 feet of 75 ohm coax and > then 50 ohm coax to the tuner for the radio. I was saying there would > be less loss by using a 300 ohm twin lead since it was being tuned for > all the HF bands and 6 meters, with open wire or ladder line being > better options. He insists that if the loop is properly made, it is > better to feed it with the 75/50 combo which properly matches the > antenna. any thoughts? The 75 ohm matching section is for a single frequency (narrow-banded). On that single frequency, it is probably just as good as the twin lead model. However, on other bands than the one for which it is designed, it will probably not function as well as the twin lead model. Your "local" just proves that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Do you want a multi-band antenna or a narrow-banded single-band antenna? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214910 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hank Oredson" References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <552ef$42cda9bb$97d55c31$21581@ALLTEL.NET> <70f97$42cde587$97d55c31$7403@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 03:06:19 GMT "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:70f97$42cde587$97d55c31$7403@ALLTEL.NET... >I guess then we are to conclude that you can not express outrage at a > situation with out gutter language. > > You Sir are the one with flawed logic, regardless of the perceived offense > one sees in the construction of a tower, it conveys no license to assail > the > members of the group with gutter language. > > Might I suggest a course in creative writing at your local adult education Adult education center ??? You assume you address an adult. I see a middle school kid whos mommy left the computer logged in. > center? It may expand your vocabulary beyond the profane utterances we > have > seen so far. > > > > "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message > news:ad-dnTSQS_2CTVDfRVn-hw@comcast.com... >> Fred W4JLE wrote: >> >> > And your liberal use of profanity accomplishes the exact same thing. >> > Can > you >> > not express yourself without sounding like you belong on Ch 19? >> >> Nice logic, albeit not much surprising in these "morality" driven times: >> "liberal use of profanity" is of the same impact and scope as erecting >> an unsafe tower. -- ... Hank http://home.earthlink.net/~horedson http://home.earthlink.net/~w0rli Article: 214911 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: SWR losses in 300 ohm TV twinlead vs coax Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 04:16:30 -0000 Message-ID: <11crvguklf0s700@corp.supernews.com> References: <48nrc1lt2gp0v0lntelou088gd0v7j1co4@4ax.com> In article <48nrc1lt2gp0v0lntelou088gd0v7j1co4@4ax.com>, Buck wrote: >I have installed a 135 foot dipole which I tune for all bands but 6 >and 20 (I have dipoles cut for those bands.) > >Well, one of the locals and I were discussing a loop antenna. He >insists that the loop is better fed with 65 feet of 75 ohm coax and >then 50 ohm coax to the tuner for the radio. I was saying there would >be less loss by using a 300 ohm twin lead since it was being tuned for >all the HF bands and 6 meters, with open wire or ladder line being >better options. He insists that if the loop is properly made, it is >better to feed it with the 75/50 combo which properly matches the >antenna. >any thoughts? I think that's going to depend very much indeed on the size of the loop and on the band(s) on which you're trying to use it. If I recall properly, a 1-wavelength resonant loop will have a feedpoint Z of around 100 ohms. A quarter-wavelength section of 75-ohm coax will transform this down to something close to 50 ohms, and you'll have a good match. This specific case doesn't generalize, though. If you use the loop on the second-harmonic band, its feedpoint impedance will be a higher (I think), the "quarter-wavelength" 75-ohm section will now be about a half-wavelength long and will mirror the feedpoint impedance to the 50/75-ohm junction. You'll see a higher SWR (maybe 2:1 or worse?) at the junction and thus at the transmitter. Same problem, even moreso, on higher-numbered harmonic bands. It'll likely be usable, but I'd guess that losses may become significant depending on the coax type and length. On non-harmonically-related bands, the situation could be even worse than that, with a very high or very reactive impedance at the loop/75-ohm-junction point, and a high SWR and significant losses all the way to your tuner. 65 feet of electrical length is roughly a quarter-wavelength at 80 meters, but that neglects the velocity factor of the cable. A setup using this sort of matching arrangement with 65 physical feet of 75-ohm coax would behave somewhat differently depending on whether the 75-ohm coax was solid-dielectric or foam/air dielectric, due to the difference in the velocity factors. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 214912 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:41:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: "Fred W4JLE" wrote - > Reg, our thoughts and prayers go out to your countrymen after the cowardly > attacks on your transportition system. --------------------------------------------------------- Fred, your sincere sentiments are very much appreciated. But we also have in mind the 100's of thousands of Iraqis who have died under attack during the last dozen years. ---- Yours, Reg. Article: 214913 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:56:21 +1000 From: atec Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters References: Message-ID: <42ce2330$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Fred W4JLE" wrote - > >>Reg, our thoughts and prayers go out to your countrymen after the > > cowardly > >>attacks on your transportition system. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Fred, your sincere sentiments are very much appreciated. But we also > have in mind the 100's of thousands of Iraqis who have died under > attack during the last dozen years. > ---- > Yours, Reg. > > I see you ignored the fact that the internal strife and dictatorship murdered far more per day than any out side influence may have caused. Article: 214914 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:56:25 -0500 Message-ID: I live in Indiana and am in the process of ground mounting a Butternut HF6V vertical antenna. The antennal is located in a section of lawn which is 40 feet from the nearest building. I am sure a set of guys would make a more sturdy antenna, but I don't want to cause lawn mowing problems, and I don't want to increase the visual impact of this antenna. Any comments or advice is welcome. John, N9JG Article: 214915 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: SWR losses in 300 ohm TV twinlead vs coax Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:21:57 -0400 Message-ID: <7evsc11vjhq79rk80dekf3eru6jiep3er3@4ax.com> References: <48nrc1lt2gp0v0lntelou088gd0v7j1co4@4ax.com> On Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:18:12 -0400, Buck wrote: >I have installed a 135 foot dipole which I tune for all bands but 6 >and 20 (I have dipoles cut for those bands.) > >Well, one of the locals and I were discussing a loop antenna. He >insists that the loop is better fed with 65 feet of 75 ohm coax and >then 50 ohm coax to the tuner for the radio. I was saying there would >be less loss by using a 300 ohm twin lead since it was being tuned for >all the HF bands and 6 meters, with open wire or ladder line being >better options. He insists that if the loop is properly made, it is >better to feed it with the 75/50 combo which properly matches the >antenna. > >any thoughts? PS. The loop we were discussing was cut for 80 meters and was to be used with a tuner to tune all HF bands. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214916 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:24:14 -0500 Message-ID: References: Thanks for your comments. I purchased a new HF6V, and the instructions do mention keeping the angle about 45°. I plan to install it without guys, but I wanted to see if someone had some strong advice to the contrary. "Dave "Doc" Corio" wrote in message news:K42dndq2fveH5FPfRVn-sA@adelphia.com... > My HF9V has withstood Iowa and PA winds, both ground-mounted and elevated > without a single problem. The antenna can be guyed, however, if you feel > it necessary. The directions show the placement of guys on the mast. It's > important to get the proper placement so winds don't do any damage if it's > guyed too high or too low. Article: 214917 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: Really low SWRs but is it worth trimming the antenna Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1120820642.403459.107860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 8 Jul 2005 04:04:02 -0700, "Blue Dawg" wrote: >I am running a President Grant am/usb/lsb and on Channel 1 the SWR is >1:0.08, on Channel 40 it is 1:1.45 and on Channel 19 it is 1:1.09. It >really isn't worth doing an adjustment on this antenna setup is there? >The antenna is a single Yagi beam made up of two Tram Penetrators >(Monkey Made's). I think that it is sold as a 1/2 wave antenna and >have heard that it is a 5/8 wave. This antenna can be set for 10 meter >usage also. It really looks weird up there without a reflector on it. >I may put a reflector on it but am stumped as to length of the >reflector (ging to be made of 1/2" electrical conduit). I can't find >the formula for the length taking into consideration of the diameter of >the reflector. I believe that the 'stand-by' one should use 468/f. >Using 27.185 (Chl 19) the length should be 17.22 feet. Only thing is >the length of the driven element is less than 12' because of the >antennas having the centerload coil in them. > >What do you think? Ignore Dave's sarcastic statement. The antenna will work very well as is. It could be trimmed to be a little better, but you and your radio will not notice any difference. If it were my antenna, I would leave it up and take the time either enjoying the radio or studying for an Amateur Radio Licenses. :) (Had to put a plug in there.) 73 and good luck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 214918 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Peter Voelpel" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:25:23 +0200 Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> Out2Lunch wrote: > Anyone who would fault your tower installation has a serious case of > "penis envy". It looks great and I will bet it will stand the test of > time. never Article: 214919 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jayson Davis Subject: Recommended Books Message-ID: Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:53:43 -0400 I'm looking for some recommendations on books about antennas and antenna theory. Any favorites you crusty old RF guys wanna share? Lots of math doesn't scare me. Thanks. Article: 214920 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:49:23 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Walt, my suspicion about approximation, based only on appearance, was not justified. So your "two SWR meter" formula and my program agree exactly. Therefore your formula must be correct. ;o) Thanks for your trouble to sort things out for me. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 214921 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Joel Kolstad" Subject: Re: Recommended Books Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 08:32:07 -0700 Message-ID: <11ct71160lhbl70@corp.supernews.com> References: "Jayson Davis" wrote in message news:Xowze.1941$yL4.1044@fe02.lga... > I'm looking for some recommendations on books about antennas and antenna > theory. "Antennas" by Kraus & Marhefka: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072321032/qid=1120836458/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-0117018-4818221?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 It may well be the last edition given that Dr. Kraus died last year. The usual "classics" also include Balanis's "Antenna Theory: Analysis and Design" and Stutzman & Thiele's, "Antenna Theory and Design." IMO, Kraus is a better place to start in that the math is somewhat simpler and Kraus was a very "applied" sort of guy. ---Joel Kolstad Article: 214922 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Really low SWRs but is it worth trimming the antenna Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:51:34 -0500 Message-ID: <11530-42CEA106-371@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: <1120820642.403459.107860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Blue Dawg wrote: "What do you think?" I gather Blue Dawg has a 1/2-wave dipole made from (2) 1/4-wave coil-loaded whips. That works. The coils are necessary because the whips are too short without them. At 27.185 MHz, WL=11.035 meters=36.20 ft. Kraus proposes a "modern version" of the Yagi-Uda antenna on page 258 of his 2002, 3rd edition of "Antennas". The reflector is spaced 1/4-WL behind the radiator. It could be closer for more gain but this would make dimensions of the array more critical, and the improvement in pattern is probably not worth it. The reflector is 1.03 x the radiator length to get the required inductive phase lag required of a reflector. Length of the reflector is 0.475 WL. Length of the radiator is 0.46 WL. Lengths of elements shrink as they get fatter and Kraus assumes thin wires. They are also shorter with loading coils. Bandwidth improves with fat elements and worsens with loading coils. The elements are shorter than 1/2-WL due to "end effects". The length of a thin non-loaded radiator for 11.35-mtr operation is 5.22 m = 17.13 ft. The length of a thin non-loaded reflector for 11.35-mtr operation is 5.39 m = 17.7 ft. Should you trim the antenna to optimize it? Probably not unless performance is at least 1 dB less than expected. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214923 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: Recommended Books Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:25:05 -0400 Message-ID: <2b9ac$42ceaaf3$97d55c31$9904@ALLTEL.NET> John D. Kraus "Antennas", Frederic E Terman's "Radio Engineers' Handbook" and Walter Maxwell's "Reflections" are a necessary part of ones library. "Jayson Davis" wrote in message news:Xowze.1941$yL4.1044@fe02.lga... > I'm looking for some recommendations on books about antennas and antenna > theory. > > Any favorites you crusty old RF guys wanna share? Lots of math doesn't > scare me. > > Thanks. Article: 214924 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:07:40 -0400 Message-ID: References: John Gotwals wrote: > Thanks for your comments. I purchased a new HF6V, and the instructions do > mention keeping the angle about 45°. I plan to install it without guys, but > I wanted to see if someone had some strong advice to the contrary. > > "Dave "Doc" Corio" wrote in message > news:K42dndq2fveH5FPfRVn-sA@adelphia.com... > >>My HF9V has withstood Iowa and PA winds, both ground-mounted and elevated >>without a single problem. The antenna can be guyed, however, if you feel >>it necessary. The directions show the placement of guys on the mast. It's >>important to get the proper placement so winds don't do any damage if it's >>guyed too high or too low. I'll chime in that my HF6V is also doing fine without guys. - Mike KB3EIA - Article: 214925 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1120820642.403459.107860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Really low SWRs but is it worth trimming the antenna Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:11:36 -0400 Message-ID: <9b946$42ceec0d$97d55c31$14100@ALLTEL.NET> Why do you have to be such a putz? The man asked a question and you wanting to feel superior to somebody, feel you have a patsy in a CBer. More's the pity! "Dave" wrote in message news:UcGdnZ7K9sES-lPfRVn-sA@crocker.com... > yes, keep trimming until the swr is 1:1.0001 or less across all the > channels. anything higher than that will absolutely fry your transmitter > and cause you to go sterile because of all the reflected power leaking out > of your rig. electrical conduit is such a great conductor that it will help > the swr also by sucking all the power that would have been reflected back > out of the coax, i would recommend 17.22329 feet, plus or minus .00001, the > tolerance is very important, a hair too long and it won't reflect properly, > too short and it will act as a director and totally reverse the pattern. > > "Blue Dawg" wrote in message > news:1120820642.403459.107860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > >I am running a President Grant am/usb/lsb and on Channel 1 the SWR is > > 1:0.08, on Channel 40 it is 1:1.45 and on Channel 19 it is 1:1.09. It > > really isn't worth doing an adjustment on this antenna setup is there? > > The antenna is a single Yagi beam made up of two Tram Penetrators > > (Monkey Made's). I think that it is sold as a 1/2 wave antenna and > > have heard that it is a 5/8 wave. This antenna can be set for 10 meter > > usage also. It really looks weird up there without a reflector on it. > > I may put a reflector on it but am stumped as to length of the > > reflector (ging to be made of 1/2" electrical conduit). I can't find > > the formula for the length taking into consideration of the diameter of > > the reflector. I believe that the 'stand-by' one should use 468/f. > > Using 27.185 (Chl 19) the length should be 17.22 feet. Only thing is > > the length of the driven element is less than 12' because of the > > antennas having the centerload coil in them. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Article: 214926 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:37:47 -0500 Message-ID: <11ctshgr6uonh97@corp.supernews.com> References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <1120805396.429011.168330@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Walt Davidson wrote: > On 8 Jul 2005 00:02:57 -0700, nm5k@wt.net wrote: > > >>That tower is quite capable of thinking >>it's a tree. It might not be green and have pretty leaves, but it will >>still kill you deader than a squashed june bug. > > > So it's true, then. Every cloud has a silver lining! > > 73 de G3NYY > Having read this thread from the beginning I feel compelled to comment myself at this time. A couple of weeks ago the area I live in was subjected to some high winds. How high I don't know but my neighbor across the street had to pick a very large tree out if his attic. How large you ask? Glad you asked. I measured the circumfrence at a point that would have been about 5 ft above ground. It measured 87 inches. Now that's one large tree. What happened? The roots snapped off at ground level. So do not trust a living thing to hold anything. Dave WD0BDZ Article: 214927 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:49:32 -0500 Message-ID: <11ctt7ic48ml733@corp.supernews.com> References: Reg Edwards wrote: > "Fred W4JLE" wrote - > >>Reg, our thoughts and prayers go out to your countrymen after the > > cowardly > >>attacks on your transportition system. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Fred, your sincere sentiments are very much appreciated. But we also > have in mind the 100's of thousands of Iraqis who have died under > attack during the last dozen years. > ---- > Yours, Reg. > > Where are these Hundreds of Thousands coming from? The defeat of the Iraqi Army during Desert Storm. That was a conflict started by the Iraqi President. The US President lead the army that defeated him. The majority of the casualties suffered during the current action have been the result a deliberate campaign by those opposed to the Iraqi people guiding their own destiny. To say otherwise is to devalue the lives lost in this action. I look foreword to the day that all non Iraqi military personnel can go home in peace and with honor. Dave N Article: 214928 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 22:08:17 GMT On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >> If you like, I am saying your approach is valid for lossless lines, it >> is also valid for all distortionless lines, but I think it is not >> accurate for lines in the general case because it isn't correct if >> Xo!=0. >> >> Owen > >Owen, if X = 0 there is no attenuation, but you're saying my material is >invalid if X is not 0? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. Walt, it has just occurred to me that I am using the "actual" Zo, not the nominal Zo, and I think your rho calc is based on the nominal Zo, as it will be measured with an instrument presumably calibrated for nominal Zo. I have compared the loss calculated by your method (with rho based on nominal Zo, Zo=Ro+j0) and my method and they are very similar (though not the same). I have added a function to calculate the loss using your formula based on nominal Zo and plotted it, along with the difference to the power based loss calc. They are at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm . If your method is based on nominal Zo, rather than the actual Zo, it is likely to be an approximation, though on this example, it is pretty close and probably is quite adequate for most practical lines at HF and above. (The error increases as frequency is reduced (Zo departs more from nominal Zo).) Having resolved the apparent inconsistency... I am still in search of a derivation of the Michaels formula. Owen -- Article: 214929 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Recommended Books Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:46:03 -0500 Message-ID: <18468-42CF3A6B-526@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> References: <11ct71160lhbl70@corp.supernews.com> Joel Kolstad wrote: " "Antennas" by Kraus & Marthelka:" I agree. Also Terman`s "Radio and Electronic Engineering", and the "ARRL Antenna Book". Other great books are out there but the 3 above cover most of what you will ever need. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 214930 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Message-ID: References: Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 04:09:08 GMT I have do not have guys on the HF6V I own and have had no problems at all. WE had sustanied winds of almost 60mph this winter and no problem at all. Do take the time though if you have not already and add a few radials. Cut you lawn real short,, lay down several radials, pull them taught and then stake them in the ground with ground cloth staples (garden center) The grass will grow right up aroound them and they will "disapear" into the ground. Huge difference in performance. Ron On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 07:56:25 -0500, "John Gotwals" wrote: >I live in Indiana and am in the process of ground mounting a Butternut HF6V >vertical antenna. The antennal is located in a section of lawn which is 40 >feet from the nearest building. I am sure a set of guys would make a more >sturdy antenna, but I don't want to cause lawn mowing problems, and I don't >want to increase the visual impact of this antenna. Any comments or advice >is welcome. > >John, N9JG > Article: 214931 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Polymath" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> Subject: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 06:03:44 +0100 Message-ID: <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Actually, just did a quick webbing and found enough to realise that the claims are founded upon feet of clay..... 1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, even if it is your intention to excite separately. 2. The differential forms of Maxwell describe the fields at _EVERY_ infinitesimal point and there is no way that the attempt to excite two separate fields from two separate mechanical contrivances will result in registration at every single point. Indeed, it is doubtful that registration will be achieved at all at any infinitesimal point. In any case, as in (1) above, your E field will have its H, and your H field will have its E field already. 3. In the accepted equations describing the generated field, radiation comes only >from accelerating charges. Thus the capacitive elements of the CFA will create the near field (decaying as 1/(r^2)) but not any radiated field (decaying as 1/r). I wonder if the measurements resulting in the claims for the CFA were made in the near field? I wonder if the whole thing is intended as an elaborate hoax, and that the authors, in their original paper in Wireless World, relied on the fact that most readers' eyes would glaze over when faced with the maths of vector fields? (Remember, that in this NG we've had someone who boasts of two degrees, one in maths and the other in electronics, stating that e^(-jwt) is a function that decreases with increasing time, thus indicating that the awarding of a degree together with the professing of mathematical equations is no guarantee of competence!) I suggest http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em1/lectures/node53.html etc as a good revising/learning/debunking cookbook. (Don't start from node 53!) "Polymath" wrote in message news:42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org... > I've just about got enough elec-and-mag theory to be > able to understand the claims made for the GM3HAT > CFA; any pointers to the patent claims? > > Article: 214932 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: 20m Halfwave Vertical QST article Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 00:13:13 -0700 Message-ID: <11cuu8bhpl6bc33@corp.supernews.com> References: Sounds like "The Half-Wave Vertical" by John Belrose, VE2CV in September 1981 _Ham Radio_. It's a sleeve dipole, like the antenna I've heard called a "bazooka" when used at VHF. That used to be a common type of VHF/UHF antenna although I don't see many around these days. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Michael St. Angelo wrote: > QST had an article about a 20 meter halfwave vertical that was end fed with > a coaxial matching section for 50 ohm feed. > It was essentially a j-pole constructed from coax. It was in a 1980-early > 1990 issue of QST. Does anyone recall the article > and the issue? > > Thanks, > > Mike N2MS > > Article: 214933 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 09:00:30 +0100 Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Polly parroted: >1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because >if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, >even if it is your intention to excite separately. > >2. The differential forms of Maxwell describe the fields at _EVERY_ >infinitesimal point and there is no way that the attempt to excite two >separate fields from two separate mechanical contrivances will result >in registration at every single point. Indeed, it is doubtful that >registration >will be achieved at all at any infinitesimal point. In any case, as in (1) >above, >your E field will have its H, and your H field will have its E field >already. Your first point does in fact point to the anomaly regarding points in your second point, and you have therefore pointed up the answer to your own point. As you clearly have not thought this point through, I pointedly leave its discovery as an exercise for you. While you continue to struggle for technical excellence, doing this should help point you to the requirements demanded of scientific thinking, and the possibility of also taking your first tentative steps in that discipline. Further, as a guide, scientists do not use personal pronouns in their formal writings, so you might also like to rewrite your article in such a manner. from Aero Spike Article: 214934 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Message-ID: <41Nze.24204$y86.5670@newsfe1-win.ntli.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 09:45:36 GMT Spike wrote: > Polly parroted: > > >>1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because >>if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, >>even if it is your intention to excite separately. >> >>2. The differential forms of Maxwell describe the fields at _EVERY_ >>infinitesimal point and there is no way that the attempt to excite two >>separate fields from two separate mechanical contrivances will result >>in registration at every single point. Indeed, it is doubtful that >>registration >>will be achieved at all at any infinitesimal point. In any case, as in (1) >>above, >>your E field will have its H, and your H field will have its E field >>already. > > > Your first point does in fact point to the anomaly regarding points in > your second point, and you have therefore pointed up the answer to > your own point. As you clearly have not thought this point through, I > pointedly leave its discovery as an exercise for you. While you > continue to struggle for technical excellence, doing this should help > point you to the requirements demanded of scientific thinking, and the > possibility of also taking your first tentative steps in that > discipline. Further, as a guide, scientists do not use personal > pronouns in their formal writings, so you might also like to rewrite > your article in such a manner. > > from > Aero Spike and what would be the point of that? -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 214935 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 12:45:11 +0100 Message-ID: <44evc1h509t31vjkv1spn4s24u81lhm426@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <41Nze.24204$y86.5670@newsfe1-win.ntli.net> Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI wrote: >and what would be the point of that? It's a triumph of hope over experience, given this chap's posting history - I'm sure you get the point ;-) from Aero Spike Article: 214936 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:18:07 -0500 Message-ID: References: I do plan to add a fair number of guys, and will be installing them just as you have suggested. I do have a question about driving the 1 1/8" mounting tube into the earth. The directions give a warning about splitting the plastic insert and suggest placing a piece of wood on top of the tube and then hammer on the wood. The soil here is clay, and the ground is quite dry, at the present time. Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about driving the tube into the ground. Should I drive a wooden stake first to form a hole, remove the stake, and then drive the tube into the hole left by the stake? "Ron" wrote in message news:bniuc19efv8crftgcahhhk4tc88phf1b3d@4ax.com... >I have do not have guys on the HF6V I own and have had no problems at > all. WE had sustanied winds of almost 60mph this winter and no > problem at all. > > Do take the time though if you have not already and add a few radials. > Cut you lawn real short,, lay down several radials, pull them taught > and then stake them in the ground with ground cloth staples (garden > center) The grass will grow right up aroound them and they will > "disapear" into the ground. Huge difference in performance. > Article: 214937 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Howard Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 08:10:28 -0700 Message-ID: <71qvc1do4o09j12tk62nvbhk1md9c35fqa@4ax.com> References: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 07:18:07 -0500, "John Gotwals" wrote: >I do plan to add a fair number of guys, and will be installing them just as >you have suggested. I do have a question about driving the 1 1/8" mounting >tube into the earth. The directions give a warning about splitting the >plastic insert and suggest placing a piece of wood on top of the tube and >then hammer on the wood. The soil here is clay, and the ground is quite dry, >at the present time. Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about >driving the tube into the ground. Should I drive a wooden stake first to >form a hole, remove the stake, and then drive the tube into the hole left by >the stake? I's suggest you take a few days and water the area first, you can use a 'starter hole' approach also. Drive a stake in and withdraw then over the course of a day fill that hole with water and allow it to seep in then water again. You don't want to go too deep with your 'starter hole' though - just enough to hold some water. Article: 214938 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:52:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <71qvc1do4o09j12tk62nvbhk1md9c35fqa@4ax.com> > I suggest you take a few days and water the area first, ================================== This may be fine for some amateurs. But what about the people in southern England where the present water shortage will cause the goverment to introduce compulsory metering of domestic water supplies. It's something to do with Earth warming, man-made climatic disturbance, and the price of a glass of clean drinking water in London. ---- Reg. Article: 214939 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 11:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: <11cvv6q5gakap25@corp.supernews.com> References: <71qvc1do4o09j12tk62nvbhk1md9c35fqa@4ax.com> Reg Edwards wrote: >>I suggest you take a few days and water the area first, > > > ================================== > > This may be fine for some amateurs. But what about the people in > southern England where the present water shortage will cause the > goverment to introduce compulsory metering of domestic water supplies. > It's something to do with Earth warming, man-made climatic > disturbance, and the price of a glass of clean drinking water in > London. > ---- > Reg. > > Use GRAY water. That's the water from the sink, bath tub etc. This will ease the load on the waste water treatment plant and allow you to soak the ground at the same time. A little more work but it can be worth it. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 214940 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <552ef$42cda9bb$97d55c31$21581@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:56:07 -0400 Message-ID: <87ef2$42d00fbe$97d55c31$2803@ALLTEL.NET> So now the actions of the government are responsible for your profanity? Get a life! You are a foul mouthed person with limited ability to express yourself with out profanity, that failing, you resort to hyperbole and rants against the government. "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:NuKdnYWEdKAD3VLfRVn-3A@comcast.com... > Ham op wrote: > > > Your profanity speaks more about you than your comments on the radio tower. > > It speaks to the people who, to cite just one recent example, go berserk > and express outrage over a half a breast on national TV, yet fall > strangely silent when their government invades a sovereign country using > false premises and manufactured evidence, or attempts to legalize torture. > > Do you really think I care what the Taliban of any religious persuasion > think about me? Article: 214941 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Eskay Subject: Re: 20m Halfwave Vertical QST article References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:59:18 GMT On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:17:43 -0400, Michael St. Angelo wrote: > QST had an article about a 20 meter halfwave vertical that was end fed with > a coaxial matching section for 50 ohm feed. > It was essentially a j-pole constructed from coax. It was in a 1980-early > 1990 issue of QST. Does anyone recall the article > and the issue? > > Thanks, > > Mike N2MS You have mail. Article: 214942 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:01:45 -0400 "Me" wrote in message news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > In article , > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and during WW2. > > > > Walt, w2du > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in > NewsGroups.... > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the > signal.... > > Me You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 and SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain connecting the DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the NDO and RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer of the FCC. If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know him? I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by tossing your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? Walt, W2DU Article: 214943 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:23:06 -0500 Message-ID: References: <71qvc1do4o09j12tk62nvbhk1md9c35fqa@4ax.com> Why would anyone save water if their water supply was not metered? "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:daorrk$dve$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > This may be fine for some amateurs. But what about the people in > southern England where the present water shortage will cause the > goverment to introduce compulsory metering of domestic water supplies. > It's something to do with Earth warming, man-made climatic > disturbance, and the price of a glass of clean drinking water in > London. Article: 214944 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:22:43 -0400 Message-ID: <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET> He is Riley's mini-me... "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:YiUze.1442$5R1.1156@fe07.lga... > > "Me" wrote in message > news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > > In article , > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > > > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and during > WW2. > > > > > > Walt, w2du > > > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is > > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in > > NewsGroups.... > > > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and > > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the > > signal.... > > > > Me > > You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 and > SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain connecting the > DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the NDO and > RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be > disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in > Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer of the > FCC. > > If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know him? > I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by tossing > your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? > > Walt, W2DU > > Article: 214945 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: 20m Halfwave Vertical QST article Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:17:25 -0400 Message-ID: <11d0j6vrimnk05b@corp.supernews.com> References: WWV uses half wave verticals that are center fed. Their web pages might show the details. End feeding seems more difficult than center feeding. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Michael St. Angelo" wrote in message news:GPudnSRA6NEjrlLfRVn-iQ@comcast.com... > QST had an article about a 20 meter halfwave vertical that was end fed with > a coaxial matching section for 50 ohm feed. > It was essentially a j-pole constructed from coax. It was in a 1980-early > 1990 issue of QST. Does anyone recall the article > and the issue? > > Thanks, > > Mike N2MS > > Article: 214946 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:48:31 -0400 Riley wouldn't hide behind 'me'. Walt "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET... > He is Riley's mini-me... > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message > news:YiUze.1442$5R1.1156@fe07.lga... > > > > "Me" wrote in message > > news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > > > In article , > > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > > > > > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and > during > > WW2. > > > > > > > > Walt, w2du > > > > > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is > > > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in > > > NewsGroups.... > > > > > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and > > > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the > > > signal.... > > > > > > Me > > > > You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 and > > SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain connecting > the > > DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the NDO > and > > RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be > > disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in > > Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer of > the > > FCC. > > > > If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know > him? > > I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by > tossing > > your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? > > > > Walt, W2DU > > > > > > Article: 214947 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:21:11 GMT In article , "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > "Me" wrote in message > news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > > In article , > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > > > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and during > WW2. > > > > > > Walt, w2du > > > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is > > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in > > NewsGroups.... > > > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and > > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the > > signal.... > > > > Me > > You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 and > SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain connecting the > DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the NDO and > RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be > disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in > Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer of the > FCC. > > If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know him? > I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by tossing > your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? > > Walt, W2DU > > You just don't know any of the Old Gang from the Left Coast, Region X, and Alaska, that's all. and it was a Van, Creme and Brown, with local State Plates, or a dark blue Stationwagon, dark tinted windows, with no backseat and a pile of receivers. I once got myself in trouble by calling it the SolsbyMobile..... Oh well, that was then.....and this is now.... Me Article: 214948 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:23:56 GMT In article <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET>, "Fred W4JLE" wrote: > He is Riley's mini-me... > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message > news:YiUze.1442$5R1.1156@fe07.lga... > > > > "Me" wrote in message > > news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... > > > In article , > > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > > > > > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and > during > > WW2. > > > > > > > > Walt, w2du > > > > > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is > > > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in > > > NewsGroups.... > > > > > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, and > > > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on the > > > signal.... > > > > > > Me > > > > You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 and > > SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain connecting > the > > DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the NDO > and > > RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be > > disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in > > Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer of > the > > FCC. > > > > If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know > him? > > I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by > tossing > > your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? > > > > Walt, W2DU > > > > > > Riley is a nice enough attorney, but the real enforcement people all got riffed during the Clinton/Gore Bloodletting when the Good Field Operatins folks, all went elsewhere......... Me Article: 214949 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:37:04 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters References: Message-ID: <42d06db0$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Fred W4JLE" wrote - > >>Reg, our thoughts and prayers go out to your countrymen after the > > cowardly > >>attacks on your transportition system. > > > --------------------------------------------------------- > > Fred, your sincere sentiments are very much appreciated. But we also > have in mind the 100's of thousands of Iraqis who have died under > attack during the last dozen years. > ---- > Yours, Reg. > > Not to mention the millions killed in interesting and novel ways by the Hesein family and their puppets. tom K0TAR Article: 214950 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jerry" References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:43:21 -0400 "If your car has more antennas on the roof than wheels on the ground, you *might* be a redneck"! (Guess I better add some more wheels! :) ) Jerry "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:PvYze.17875$x82.12391@fe03.lga... > Riley wouldn't hide behind 'me'. > > Walt > > "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message > news:18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET... >> He is Riley's mini-me... >> >> "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message >> news:YiUze.1442$5R1.1156@fe07.lga... >> > >> > "Me" wrote in message >> > news:Me-69639F.15593107072005@netnews.worldnet.att.net... >> > > In article , >> > > "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >> > > >> > > > Who is 'Me'? I used to drive one 'a them things too, before and >> during >> > WW2. >> > > > >> > > > Walt, w2du >> > > >> > > "Me" is an alias for a well know Radioman/FCC Field Agent, who is >> > > nearing the end of his natural life, but finds time to kabitz here in >> > > NewsGroups.... >> > > >> > > but, yours didn't have Phased Verticals, with electronic steering, >> > > and >> > > a Right/Left meter just above the steering wheel to guide you in on > the >> > > signal.... >> > > >> > > Me >> > >> > You're right, mine was a Hudson with a loop DF and Hallicrafters SX-27 > and >> > SX-28 receivers. There had to be a somewhat intelligent brain >> > connecting >> the >> > DF to the steering wheel. Did you drive your car during the time the >> > NDO >> and >> > RID existed? I was a charter member beginning in 1940. My wife-to-be >> > disseminated more than 500 invitations to join from her FCC office in >> > Washington as an assistant to George E. Sterling, then Chief Engineer >> > of >> the >> > FCC. >> > >> > If well-known Radioman/FCC Agent is so well known how come I don't know >> him? >> > I can't believe you're gonna give away any Home Security secrets by >> tossing >> > your anonomity cloak. How about coming clean with us? >> > >> > Walt, W2DU >> > >> > >> >> > > Article: 214951 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:48:09 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: New program. Two SWR meters References: <42d06db0$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <42d07e5a$0$22200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > Not to mention the millions killed in interesting and novel ways by the > Hesein family and their puppets. > > tom > K0TAR Sorry mispelled the murdering tyrant's name, should have been "Husein". tom K0TAR Article: 214952 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:18 -0400 Owen, I tried to send this as a reply to you, but your email address was rejected, so I had to send this to the group. My response appears below your Walt "Owen" wrote in message news:fprtc119eucfn8p7evsaio4096hihfshdu@4ax.com... > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:23:52 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" > wrote: > > > >> If you like, I am saying your approach is valid for lossless lines, it > >> is also valid for all distortionless lines, but I think it is not > >> accurate for lines in the general case because it isn't correct if > >> Xo!=0. > >> > >> Owen > > > >Owen, if X = 0 there is no attenuation, but you're saying my material is > >invalid if X is not 0? I'm sorry, but I'm confused. > > Walt, it has just occurred to me that I am using the "actual" Zo, not > the nominal Zo, and I think your rho calc is based on the nominal Zo, > as it will be measured with an instrument presumably calibrated for > nominal Zo. > > I have compared the loss calculated by your method (with rho based on > nominal Zo, Zo=Ro+j0) and my method and they are very similar (though > not the same). I have added a function to calculate the loss using > your formula based on nominal Zo and plotted it, along with the > difference to the power based loss calc. They are at > http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm . > > If your method is based on nominal Zo, rather than the actual Zo, it > is likely to be an approximation, though on this example, it is pretty > close and probably is quite adequate for most practical lines at HF > and above. (The error increases as frequency is reduced (Zo departs > more from nominal Zo).) > > Having resolved the apparent inconsistency... I am still in search of > a derivation of the Michaels formula. > > Owen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Hi Owen, I'm trying to understand your Mathcad presentations, but I've run into some roadblocks concerning terminology, some of which I'm not familiar with. I confess my questions prove my ignorance, but that's ok if one's trying to learn. However, I was using nominal Zo. First, Xo!=0. I don't know what this means. Second, what does MML stand for in English? Third, in 'functions for V, I, Z, etc at z'. Where is 'z'? I cannot find any reference to it. Fourth, 'exp'. Exponent? If so, of what? e? Fifth, I understand 'x' as distance along the line from the termination, but what is 'y'? Sixth, what is AppLoss? Approximate? Apparent? Applied? Seventh, 'DLoss'. What is 'D'? Dielectric? Again, what is the 'y' term? An ordinate value? Eighth, in the LineLoss(x,y) = 10log... the identical right-hand terms in both numerator and denominator, the identical functions of 'e^^ x e^^. what is the meaning of the bar above the second appearance of 'e'? And above gamma(x)? I want to understand your math presentation, Owen, especially when I see that Loss(x,0 - W2DUloss(x,0) is so small I want to understand what makes the difference. So I'd appreciate it if you'd set me straight on the points I made above. Walt Article: 214953 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:46:59 GMT "Polymath" wrote in message news:42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org... > Actually, just did a quick webbing and found enough to > realise that the claims are founded upon feet of clay..... > > 1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because > if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, > even if it is your intention to excite separately. > > 2. The differential forms of Maxwell describe the fields at _EVERY_ > infinitesimal point and there is no way that the attempt to excite two > separate fields from two separate mechanical contrivances will result > in registration at every single point. Indeed, it is doubtful that > registration > will be achieved at all at any infinitesimal point. In any case, as in (1) > above, > your E field will have its H, and your H field will have its E field > already. > > 3. In the accepted equations describing the generated field, radiation > comes only > from accelerating charges. Thus the capacitive elements of the CFA will > create the near field (decaying as 1/(r^2)) but not any radiated field > (decaying as 1/r). I wonder if the measurements resulting in the claims > for the CFA were made in the near field? > > I wonder if the whole thing is intended as an elaborate hoax, and that the > authors, in their original paper in Wireless World, relied on the fact > that > most readers' eyes would glaze over when faced with the maths of vector > fields? (Remember, that in this NG we've had someone who boasts of > two degrees, one in maths and the other in electronics, stating that > e^(-jwt) > is a function that decreases with increasing time, thus indicating that > the > awarding of a degree together with the professing of mathematical > equations is no guarantee of competence!) > > I suggest http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/em1/lectures/node53.html > etc > as a good revising/learning/debunking cookbook. (Don't start from node > 53!) > > "Polymath" wrote in message > news:42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org... >> I've just about got enough elec-and-mag theory to be >> able to understand the claims made for the GM3HAT >> CFA; any pointers to the patent claims? Not the first time the CFA has been discussed here. The consensus is that it is nonsense. Belrose has probably done the most rigorous investigation. See the paper at http://download.antennex.com/shack/Jun00/paperdavos.pdf I wonder who it was that is not familiar with Euler's formula. Frank Article: 214954 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 06:12:23 GMT On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:18 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" wrote: >I'm trying to understand your Mathcad presentations, but I've run into some >roadblocks concerning terminology, some of which I'm not familiar with. I >confess my questions prove my ignorance, but that's ok if one's trying to >learn. However, I was using nominal Zo. Not at all, you are far more eminent that I on this topic, and I appreciate your review. I am learning from all this. Apologies for the difficulty in understanding my notation. Some of it breaks into psuedo programming code. > >First, Xo!=0. I don't know what this means. Not equals. >Second, what does MML stand for in English? MLL? Matched Line Loss (dB/m) >Third, in 'functions for V, I, Z, etc at z'. Where is 'z'? I cannot find any >reference to it. These quantities are a function of z, where z is a position on the line. The convention that I have used for displacement is that it is negative towards the generator. When it matters, displacement is in metres. The z is just used in definition of some functions in Matchcad (where you see :=), I have used x for position variable in the graphs. >Fourth, 'exp'. Exponent? If so, of what? e? exp(x) is e to the power of x (For clarity, I shouldn't have written it that way, it works, but Mathcad understands the meaning of e superscript x as e to the power of x, as you will see in some of the expressions, and it is easier to read.) >Fifth, I understand 'x' as distance along the line from the termination, but >what is 'y'? In some of the functions, I have written them to calculate some quantity between two arbitrary points x and y. They are used in the definition of fuctions (where you see :=). Most of the graphs use 0 for y so they are plotted wrt the load position >Sixth, what is AppLoss? Approximate? Apparent? Applied? Approximate Loss, and it was incorrectly based on Zo rather than nominal Zo. >Seventh, 'DLoss'. What is 'D'? Dielectric? Again, what is the 'y' term? An >ordinate value? DLoss was equivalent to AppLoss. >Eighth, in the LineLoss(x,y) = 10log... the identical right-hand terms in >both numerator and denominator, the identical functions of 'e^^ x e^^. what >is the meaning of the bar above the second appearance of 'e'? And above >gamma(x)? The bar above the variable is the complex conjugate operator. > >I want to understand your math presentation, Owen, especially when I see >that Loss(x,0 - W2DUloss(x,0) is so small I want to understand what makes >the difference. So I'd appreciate it if you'd set me straight on the points >I made above. Walt, in the models at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm , I now know why there is such a gap between DLoss and LineLoss. You will recognise AppLoss / DLoss is your Appendix 8 expression, but my rho function was based on the modelled complex value of Zo (characteristic impedance), not the nominal value of Zo. In the second lot at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm , AppLoss is equivalent to DLoss and it is based on nominal Zo, W2DULoss you will see calculates the rho term (though not identified) using nominal Ro. Comparing the results with loss calcuated from P(x)/P(y) (the ratio of the real power at points x and y), the conclusion is that using your expression with actual Zo is not at all accurate, using it with nominal Zo is very close. If I force Zo to be real for all modelling, the results of all methods is exactly the same (within rounding errors of the order of 10 to the power of -14) Some of your questions are just about the Mathcad notation (though that is not too dissimilar to normal handwritten math notation), but some of it is my expression and usage. Again my apologies for confusing with too little explanation. I appreciate your review and comments Walt. Owen -- Article: 214955 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:38:00 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> >From 'inventor' Hately's original descriptions of his CFA, it is so glaringly obviously a load of nonsense that anybody who takes the time to mathematically expose the fraud, himself exposes his own weakness and uncertainty in the subject and has already been partially taken in by it. Waste no more time. ---- Reg. Article: 214956 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Polymath" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:51:50 +0100 Message-ID: <42d0e73b_1@x-privat.org> Someone who has recently obtained a post as a teacher of maths at a school in Strood, Kent! Worrying, is it not? Hardly surprising, therefore, to find that that person's greatest achievement in Ham Radio was to aspire to a licence issued under the gangrenous degeneration that is the M3/CB Fools' Licence scheme! "Frank" wrote in message news:TS0Ae.144440$on1.37843@clgrps13... > I wonder who it was that is not familiar with Euler's formula. Article: 214957 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Polymath" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:54:55 +0100 Message-ID: <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> One of my purposes in scraping off the rust from 34 years' of unused E-M theory was specifically so that I could evaluate the claims made for the CFA. I was intrigued by the claims but at no times taken in by them. But yes - I exposed my ignorance but not any weakness, but there is never any problem with such exposure if it is done in an open spirit of eagerness to learn! "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:daqmp7$4m5$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > From 'inventor' Hately's original descriptions of his CFA, it is so > glaringly obviously a load of nonsense that anybody who takes the time > to mathematically expose the fraud, himself exposes his own weakness > and uncertainty in the subject and has already been partially taken in > by it. > Waste no more time. Article: 214958 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "zzl" Subject: [help] eznec\4 pro Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:48:10 +0800 Message-ID: I can not find it. Article: 214959 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:21:46 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> I see you are accustomed to self analysis. Not a bad thing. But you unwittingly lowered yourself to the CFA level. On the other hand, you have rapidly caught up with your true potential which exceeds mine. I have been worried about your recent absence and silence. Fearing the worst in this gradually extending police state. Welcome back! ======================================= "Polymath" wrote in message news:42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org... > One of my purposes in scraping off the rust from 34 years' > of unused E-M theory was specifically so that I could evaluate > the claims made for the CFA. > > I was intrigued by the claims but at no times taken in by them. > > But yes - I exposed my ignorance but not any weakness, but there is never > any > problem with such exposure if it is done in an open spirit of eagerness to > learn! > > "Reg Edwards" wrote in message > news:daqmp7$4m5$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > > From 'inventor' Hately's original descriptions of his CFA, it is so > > glaringly obviously a load of nonsense that anybody who takes the time > > to mathematically expose the fraud, himself exposes his own weakness > > and uncertainty in the subject and has already been partially taken in > > by it. > > Waste no more time. > > Article: 214960 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Polymath" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:25:57 +0100 Message-ID: <42d0f794$1_1@x-privat.org> Thank-you for your kind words. At 6'3" and 20 stone, I fear that my potential, gravitational at least, exceeds that of most people! "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:daqsrq$jg4$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... >I see you are accustomed to self analysis. Not a bad thing. > But you unwittingly lowered yourself to the CFA level. > On the other hand, you have rapidly caught up with your true potential > which exceeds mine. > I have been worried about your recent absence and silence. Fearing the > worst in this gradually extending police state. Welcome back! Article: 214961 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: 20m Halfwave Vertical QST article Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:45:27 -0700 Message-ID: <11d1v2deipho446@corp.supernews.com> References: <1120982295.417023.206030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> When radials are in the same plane, they don't radiate a significant amount. But when slanted downward, they do, pretty much the same as a conical element of the same outside dimensions. You can call a quarter wave vertical with sloping radials a "quarter wave ground plane" if you like, but unlike one with horizontal radials, the radiating portion is longer than a quarter wavelength. In the case of the antenna being described, the upper radiating part of the dipole is a quarter wavelength and the lower part is about 0.7 times a quarter wavelength but effectively large diameter. We have to get over the notion that calling some part of the antenna structure "ground" gives it some kind of special properties. It doesn't. Roy Lewallen, W7EL nm5k@wt.net wrote: > The bottom half of each > antenna consists of 9 quarter-wavelength wires that connect to the > center of > the tower and slope downwards to the ground at a 45 degree angle. > > Sure, thats a "1/2 wave" antenna, but I would always consider that > a ground plane, rather than 1/2 wave vertical. It's got sloping > radials. > Same thing I used to run on 40m. I always called it a 1/4 wave ground > plane... MK > Article: 214962 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:43:40 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> What worries me is that people can disappear from the streets, be removed from circulation, without any reason except that it might possibly be something to do with the Official Secrets Acts. Untruthful accusations by unfriendly neighbours about terrorist associations, for example, would be of course kept equally secret. Relatives are barred from asking questions about missing persons. ===================================== Article: 214963 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Polymath" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:54:48 +0100 Message-ID: <42d10c52$1_3@x-privat.org> The National government is a Socialist one. What other National Socialist governments were there? "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dar1lc$1sf$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > What worries me is that people can disappear from the streets, be > removed from circulation, without any reason except that it might > possibly be something to do with the Official Secrets Acts. Untruthful > accusations by unfriendly neighbours about terrorist associations, for > example, would be of course kept equally secret. > > Relatives are barred from asking questions about missing persons. Article: 214964 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Wankel Rotary Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d0f794$1_1@x-privat.org> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:02:44 GMT Polymath wrote: > Thank-you for your kind words. > > At 6'3" and 20 stone, I fear that my potential, > gravitational at least, exceeds that of most people! ...and those are just the dimensions of your head so we believe! Toot toot old son. Article: 214965 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online Message-ID: References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> <11bu1k0evf54aff@news.supernews.com> <11bv2l61vm5red4@corp.supernews.com> <11c0kb4s0hdg1d9@news.supernews.com> <4Uxye.1368$BK1.479@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> <42CAAF91.50507@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:42:47 GMT I admit I have only read the first few and the last post on this subject, but I just have to offer my opinions.... This is Amateur Radio. If the insurance companies and the politicians had their ways, we probably would not do much of any of this. Here is a fellow who has takes his own unique circumstances and put up an experimental antenna support. He has chosen to accept the responsibility of haven chosen to do things differently. He has not done it the way I would have but only time will tell if he has fulfilled the structural requirements. I have been down my own path on towers since the early 1960's and experienced two failures. It never occurred to me to call the insurance company. I always made certain that the mess stayed within the confines of my property. Every tower project I have done has had at least one significant aspect that could be improved upon. The only problems I see with using a tree as a guy point is that it moves a little and you have to take care to not kill the tree. Dead trees are unreliable. In a lot of neighborhoods, land use is negotiable. Out here in the country I have come to accept that a few cows in the yard are something that happens from time to time. What constitutes encroachment is in the eye of the beholder... I have always wondered about the accepted practice of putting up a 60 foot tower of all the same size sections. It seems to me that the top half or at least third would be better if it were lighter. It certainly is not going to see the same stresses as the lower components. AD5TH lives in an area that sees some high winds, I hope this bad experience with the nay sayers does not keep him from sharing his experiences in the future. 73, de W8CCW On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:55:08 -0700, "Ed Price" wrote: >> Yes but you need everything first insurance with one company and then at >> the maximum but the minimums. You pay dearly for a general liability >> rider if you take it all into account. Yes you are protected. >> > >Hank, those general riders are expensive, and no, I don't have one. OTOH, I >am not erecting a 75' tower, made with two dissimilar structural systems, >joined together by amateur engineering and welding, a very minimal concrete >base, and held in place with guy wires running to nearby trees and an >illegal encroachment onto someone else's property. The OP wanted our opinion >of his efforts; he got 'em. The extent of my insurance coverage has >absolutely no bearing on the subject of AD5TH's tower project. Article: 214966 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:59:42 -0400 wrote in message news:k0a2d11qfpdb3f55q6kse6a6c3n43v4i22@4ax.com... > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:48:10 +0800, "zzl" wrote: > > >I can not find it. > > > > Find What? Hi Danny, your question reminds me of the 4-year old in a restaurant, went to find the rest room, then came back and told his mother he couldn' find it. So she went with him and discovered the reason he couldn't find it was because he had his underpants on backward. Walt Article: 214967 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:35:34 -0400 Message-ID: I hope your tinfoil hat is intact... Mind control waves are being sent out daily over a CFA antenna. I have visted your gulags just south of London and obsrved the slaves of the new order as they were forced to drink warm beer at the Bull. Oh the inhumanity of it all. "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dar1lc$1sf$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > What worries me is that people can disappear from the streets, be > removed from circulation, without any reason except that it might > possibly be something to do with the Official Secrets Acts. Untruthful > accusations by unfriendly neighbours about terrorist associations, for > example, would be of course kept equally secret. > > Relatives are barred from asking questions about missing persons. > > ===================================== > > Article: 214968 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <313030303837383542D1425325@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:44:19 +0100 From: Dave Piggin Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? References: > I do plan to add a fair number of guys, and will be installing them just as > you have suggested. I do have a question about driving the 1 1/8" mounting > tube into the earth. The directions give a warning about splitting the > plastic insert and suggest placing a piece of wood on top of the tube and > then hammer on the wood. The soil here is clay, and the ground is > quite dry, > at the present time. Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about > driving the tube into the ground. Should I drive a wooden stake first to > form a hole, remove the stake, and then drive the tube into the hole > left by > the stake? Post Hole/fencing Borer comes to mind or depending on your current soil condition you could use a hose pipe with a tube inserted in the tip and bore a hole that way, albeit fairly high pressure is needed, but that could be achieved with a pressure washer. As you start off your bound to be soaked a bit, but as you [bore deeper] push/ pull the nozzle out of the hole so that excess soil/clay can be removed by the water, bore down to your required depth, insert pole and back fill with sand or tamp down soil sides. This is also one way to ensure you can get a decent enough hole, deep enough to insert a earth stake. Your idea of utilising a hole by driving in a stake would no doubt give you problems extracting it back out again as I assume that you would be requiring a depth of about 900mm? Dave d:-) -- Amateur Radio Call Sign M1BTI, Located in Manchester England. Locator square IO83TK Chairman Of Trafford Radio Club. Club Call Signs G0TRG & M1BBP Located at Umist, University Of Manchester Institute For Science And Technology Share What You Know, Learn What You Don't. Article: 214969 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Recommended Books Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:49:21 -0400 Message-ID: <11d2kbrd0pamve2@corp.supernews.com> References: <11ct71160lhbl70@corp.supernews.com> The third edition of Antennas (recommended by Joel Kolstad) is certainly mandatory for study. Note that a paperback edition exists that costs much less than the hardback edition. The third edition is rather directed towards specific antennas (or classes of antennas) with plenty of examples and problems. Do look for the first edition of Antennas by Professor Kraus (published in 1950). In my prejudiced opinion, since I studied under Professor Kraus, the first edition is a key text to antenna theory. One should also have the ARRL's antenna book - relatively low cost and a wealth of practical information. Kraus third, an HP calculator, and diligent working of the examples in the third edition will provide a real education about antennas and their environment. Go for it! 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Joel Kolstad" wrote in message news:11ct71160lhbl70@corp.supernews.com... > "Jayson Davis" wrote in message > news:Xowze.1941$yL4.1044@fe02.lga... > > I'm looking for some recommendations on books about antennas and antenna > > theory. > > "Antennas" by Kraus & Marhefka: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0072321032/qid=1120836458/sr=8 -1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/103-0117018-4818221?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 > > It may well be the last edition given that Dr. Kraus died last year. > > The usual "classics" also include Balanis's "Antenna Theory: Analysis and > Design" and Stutzman & Thiele's, "Antenna Theory and Design." IMO, Kraus is a > better place to start in that the math is somewhat simpler and Kraus was a > very "applied" sort of guy. > > ---Joel Kolstad > > > Article: 214970 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:52:59 -0500 Message-ID: References: The only thing I had on hand was some square cross-sectional hard wood stake. The cross-sectional diagonal length was about 3/4 of the Butternut mounting tube diameter. I have clay soil and we are in the middle of a drought, so I used plenty of water and each time went an inch or two deeper. Driving the mounting tube was quite easy, and the plumb is quite good. The tube is now in the ground and secured to a DX Engineering stainless ground plane radial plate. http://dxengineering.com/ "Dave "Doc" Corio" wrote in message news:LtydnU9-24JrGE3fRVn-rA@adelphia.com... > From my own experience (water problems aside) use a smaller pipe to drive > a pilot hole. If your ground mount is 1 1/8", use either a 3/4, or at the > most, 7/8" pipe to make a pilot hole. I tried using 1 1/8", and ended up > with quite a bit of "slop". 3/4" seemed to yield the best results for me. > Leaves enough earth to firmly hold the base, yet makes it very easy to > install without beating the heck out of the base Itself! > > 73 > Dave > N0HNJ Article: 214971 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: 20m Halfwave Vertical QST article Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:23:38 -0000 Message-ID: <11d2mcqsqoqu162@corp.supernews.com> References: <1120982295.417023.206030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <11d1v2deipho446@corp.supernews.com> In article <11d1v2deipho446@corp.supernews.com>, Roy Lewallen wrote: >We have to get over the notion that calling some part of the antenna >structure "ground" gives it some kind of special properties. It doesn't. I think it was Bob Pease of National Semiconductor who commented along the lines of "You may be able to trust your mother. If you're extremely lucky you may be able to trust your government. You can't trust your ground." Or, in the short form, "There is no ground". At least, not as a single, uniform entity with constant (and special) properties. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 214972 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:50:54 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro References: Message-ID: <42d16100$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> zzl wrote: > I can not find it. http://www.eznec.com/eznecpro.htm -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214973 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:56:44 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> Message-ID: <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Walt Davidson wrote: > The human rights group, > Liberty, says that the UK is "sleepwalking into a police state". For a police state to exist, the first step is to disarm the citizens. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214974 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:11:14 -0500 Message-ID: I am in the process of installing a Butternut HF6V. The mounting tube of the HF6V is clamped to a DX Engineering stainless radial plate. See the link below for a photo. http://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RP6QT47MZYSL2JJKV3E19KX6G Article: 214975 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:28:27 -0400 Message-ID: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> References: Dear John Gotwals (N9JG ?): Great picture! Unfortunately, it is accompanied by a lot of spam, some of which I may need to reboot to get rid of. Please describe the white, solid tube. Does it go into the ground? Did the large U-bolt and the plastic wedges come with the kit? Is the tubular, metal sleeve a splice? Interesting set up. Let us know how things progress. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "John Gotwals" wrote in message news:daroc3$6rk$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > I am in the process of installing a Butternut HF6V. The mounting tube of the > HF6V is clamped to a DX Engineering stainless radial plate. See the link > below for a photo. > http://s48.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0RP6QT47MZYSL2JJKV3E19KX6G > > Article: 214976 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:45:49 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42d17bf0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Gerard Lynch wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote: >>For a police state to exist, the first step is >>to disarm the citizens. > > Uh oh, we've been crossposted with the Murricans. "Don't Tread On Me!", "Give me liberty or give me death!", " When in the course of human events ...", 2nd Ammendment, etc. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 214977 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:13:29 -0700 Message-ID: <11d30bbprdtpme6@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Gerard Lynch wrote: > > Uh oh, we've been crossposted with the Murricans. > Be sure to wash your hands after reading. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214978 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:10:33 GMT Walt Davidson wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:56:44 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >>For a police state to exist, the first step is >>to disarm the citizens. > > > The citizens in this country have never been armed, and in fact even > hand-guns for sport use were recently outlawed. > > 73 de G3NYY > That's why Cecil's ancestors left the British Isles, so they could have the freedom to shoot one another, a proposition to which my ancestors heartily gave support. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 214979 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:13:11 +0100 Message-ID: <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Polly parrotted: >Actually, just did a quick webbing and found enough to >realise that the claims are founded upon feet of clay..... > >1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because >if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, >even if it is your intention to excite separately. Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? from Aero Spike Article: 214980 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:32:08 -0500 Message-ID: References: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> I would have liked to have attached the picture to my initial posting, but since this is not a binaries newsgroup, I abstained. I do not yet have a website, so this seemed the best way to make the picture available. The Butternut HF6V is ground mounted by inserting a 1-1/8" X 24" tube (tube A) into the ground to a depth of approximately 21" with about 3" of the tubing above ground. Tube A has a fiberglass insulator inserted in the upper portion of the tube, and in addition to serving as an insulator, it is used as the support for the next antenna tube (tube B). According to the directions, the upper end of the insulator should be about 7" above ground. There are no plastic wedges, but I did clamp tube A to the DX Engineering stainless radial plate which included a wedge made from light metal, probably cast or forged aluminum. This wedge and a stainless u-bolt are used to make an electrical and mechanical attachment between Tube A and the stainless radial plate. I hope I have answered your questions, John, N9JG "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com... > Great picture! Unfortunately, it is accompanied by a lot of spam, some > of which I may need to reboot to get rid of. > Please describe the white, solid tube. Does it go into the ground? > Did > the large U-bolt and the plastic wedges come with the kit? Is the > tubular, > metal sleeve a splice? Article: 214981 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:24:24 -0400 Message-ID: <11d3bgi9lrmm832@corp.supernews.com> References: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> Dear John: Indeed you have answered my questions. I also re-read the manual on the manufacturer's site. The full nature of "Tube A with insulator" is not clear from the manual. Here is my read-back: "Tube A with insulator" is cylindrical, has a diameter of 1.125 inches, a nominal overall length of two feet, and at the end of "A" that is expected to be above ground is found a fiberglass solid rod that is attached to the bottom part of "A" (composed of an unknown substance) with a metal sleeve having an attachment bolt extending radially therefrom. Do I have it? My curiosity is driven by an interest to use one of these antennas as a receiving antenna at the end of a very long piece of coax. From what you have taught me, the bottom end of "A" probably should go into a cylindrical concrete foundation. (Wind here is unattenuated by trees.) I had been under the impression that the "bottom" of this antenna was to be clamped to a pole that is driven (or set) into the ground. For quite a different reason than learning the nature of the "bottom" of the antenna, when you have the antenna working, please estimate the inside diameter of a hollow cylindrical plastic tube that will be able fully to enclose the antenna (as if the tube was a radome). I have a colleague who is thinking of a "flag pole." From DXEngineering and your comments, I now understand the wedges. Thank you for your assistance. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "John Gotwals" wrote in message news:das7l9$euh$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > I would have liked to have attached the picture to my initial posting, but > since this is not a binaries newsgroup, I abstained. I do not yet have a > website, so this seemed the best way to make the picture available. > > The Butternut HF6V is ground mounted by inserting a 1-1/8" X 24" tube (tube > A) into the ground to a depth of approximately 21" with about 3" of the > tubing above ground. Tube A has a fiberglass insulator inserted in the upper > portion of the tube, and in addition to serving as an insulator, it is used > as the support for the next antenna tube (tube B). According to the > directions, the upper end of the insulator should be about 7" above ground. > > There are no plastic wedges, but I did clamp tube A to the DX Engineering > stainless radial plate which included a wedge made from light metal, > probably cast or forged aluminum. This wedge and a stainless u-bolt are used > to make an electrical and mechanical attachment between Tube A and the > stainless radial plate. > > I hope I have answered your questions, > John, N9JG > > "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message > news:11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com... > > Great picture! Unfortunately, it is accompanied by a lot of spam, some > > of which I may need to reboot to get rid of. > > > Please describe the white, solid tube. Does it go into the ground? > > Did > > the large U-bolt and the plastic wedges come with the kit? Is the > > tubular, > > metal sleeve a splice? > > Article: 214982 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:27:01 GMT "Spike" wrote in message news:4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com... > Polly parrotted: > >>Actually, just did a quick webbing and found enough to >>realise that the claims are founded upon feet of clay..... >> >>1. You do not separately excite the E and H fields because >>if you excite an E field, you get a corresponding H field, and vice-versa, >>even if it is your intention to excite separately. > > Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper > combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on > the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? > > from > Aero Spike The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; as can virtually any physical system. As a reference refer to "Dynamics of Physical Circuits and Systems", by Lindsay and Katz at Concordia University, Montreal. ISBN 0-916460-21-5 published by Matrix of Beaverton OR. Frank Article: 214983 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:34:02 -0400 Message-ID: <11d3c2korn62158@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> Wow! Check your history. Once it was a requirement for persons in England to be armed. Practice was also compulsory. It is true, and always has been true, that only when the state is not afraid of its armed populous that you have citizens rather than mere subjects. Respectfully, Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Walt Davidson" wrote in message news:9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com... > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:56:44 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >For a police state to exist, the first step is > >to disarm the citizens. > > The citizens in this country have never been armed, and in fact even > hand-guns for sport use were recently outlawed. > > 73 de G3NYY > > -- > Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com Article: 214984 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <42D1BC42.BF7135B7@theforceluke.com> From: Luke Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower Project Completed - Pics Online References: <11bsdqpir7o54fa@news.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:24:35 GMT Take a closer look at his photos ! Turnbuckels are not secured, they can work loose and cause failure. Inadaquate ground wires from guy cables to ground rods. The trees or light pole will explode is the cables take a hit. Same for the tower ground wires, insufficient not to NEC specs. Trees have roots to hold them in the dirt, telco poles do not. Insufficient support posts in a few feet of dirt concrete filled pipes. No substitute for cubic yards of concrete and or rebar. Tower sections have already rusted, most likly internal rusting as well. Metal banding will damage the tree trunks, tree will be susceptiable to disease and insect damage. Nothing to be envious about this setup. 'structural integrity has not been established' voice of star trek computer. luke Out2Lunch wrote: > Anyone who would fault your tower installation has a serious case of "penis > envy". It looks great and I will bet it will stand the test of time. It is a > shame that every user group on the internet has so many weenie pricks > lurking trying to find fault with every post. I'd be proud of a tower like > that so don't let the idiots detract from it. > 73! Article: 214985 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "zzl" Subject: [help] eznec\4 pro Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:30:27 +0800 Message-ID: I need eznec/4 pro now,where can I download it. Article: 214986 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:43:17 -0700 Message-ID: <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> Spike wrote: > > Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper > combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on > the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? > > from > Aero Spike I'm that idiot. Actually, one of the very many. The equations for the two systems are identical. Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI (Reg's Old Wife and now Aero Spike's Idiot. The titles just keep accumulating. Of course I'm also a proud member of the OFC.) Article: 214987 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:50:50 -0700 Message-ID: <11d3gjeacauu7be@corp.supernews.com> References: zzl wrote: > I need eznec/4 pro now,where can I download it. > You can't download it. First go to http://eznec.com/eznecpro.htm and read the "Additional EZNEC/4 Information" section. Then after you've obtained the required NEC-4 license see http://eznec.com/ordering.htm for ordering information. I'm afraid Lawrence Livermore will need more of a name than "zzl". And so will I. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 214988 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:51:10 GMT "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com... > Spike wrote: >> >> Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper >> combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on >> the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? >> >> from >> Aero Spike > > I'm that idiot. Actually, one of the very many. The equations for the two > systems are identical. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI > (Reg's Old Wife and now Aero Spike's Idiot. The titles just keep > accumulating. Of course I'm also a proud member of the OFC.) Of course, I should have mentioned a mass/spring/damper (equivalent to capacitor/inductor/resistor), not just spring/damper. I think the only physical system that can not be entirely modeled as an electrical analog is a thermal system; which has no inductor equivalent. Frank Article: 214989 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:59:21 -0700 Message-ID: <11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> Oops, I stand corrected -- thanks, Frank. Once again I read too hastily. A *mass*/spring combination mimics an inductor/capacitor, of course. A damper adds resistance. So a spring/damper combination would act more like an RC or RL circuit, but with a little stray L or C from the spring's mass. Hope I don't have to give up my new title. Titles really impress folks in some parts of the world. Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI, OFC Frank wrote: > > Of course, I should have mentioned a mass/spring/damper (equivalent to > capacitor/inductor/resistor), not just spring/damper. I think the only > physical system that can not be entirely modeled as an electrical analog is > a thermal system; which has no inductor equivalent. > > Frank > > Article: 214990 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:08:28 -0400 "Gerard Lynch" wrote in message news:V46dnXMMs8miOEzfRVnytA@brightview.com... > > "Tom Donaly" wrote in message > news:X_gAe.107$Rv7.93@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > > > Only after the establishment of a solid Monarchy were the citizens > > disarmed. [Power consolidating control of Power]. > > Um, a little. There's been a solid monarchy in England, at least, for about > 1200 years. > > Guns aren't an issue here. We're not allowed to have them. Nobody much (as > in about 90% of the population) cares. We care about things you folks have > never even heard about instead (fancy an ID card?) > > Here endeth the second lesson. > > > -- > 73 > > Gerry G0RTN > Vanity Page at http://www.gerrylynch.co.uk > Just try to imagine what you bloody 'ole Brits could have accomplished around 1200 if you'd only had the tremendously high voltages achieved in the near field of a CFA antenna to hurl at the enemy. Walt Article: 214991 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "CWB" References: Subject: Re: 6 Meter Antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:23:40 GMT "Caveat Lector" wrote in message news:zXhwe.1038$HV1.545@fed1read07... > Might try giving us operating parameters. > > Are u going to operate repeaters only or skip or both? > For repeaters and mobiles, you'll want vertical polarization. (Cross > polarization can be 12dB or more) 20+db...not 12! 20db=100:1 power ratio.... > For skip, either vertical or horizontal will do. Sometimes....depends on the conditions > I can't put up a Yagi, so I use a Cushcraft AR-6 Ringo, 1/2 wave vertical > Your results may vary. Nowadays, a PAR or KB6KQ is best.....when the band is not open, you want to use horizontal pol for best "local" coverage...out to 200+ miles or so Article: 214992 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> <11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:29:15 GMT "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com... > Oops, I stand corrected -- thanks, Frank. Once again I read too hastily. A > *mass*/spring combination mimics an inductor/capacitor, of course. A > damper adds resistance. So a spring/damper combination would act more like > an RC or RL circuit, but with a little stray L or C from the spring's > mass. > > Hope I don't have to give up my new title. Titles really impress folks in > some parts of the world. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI, OFC > No problem Roy. To be exact a mass is equivalent to a capacitor. As in Newton's 2nd law: f = m*dv/dt, and its electrical analog i = c*dv/dt, where "v" refers to velocity in the mechanical case, and voltage in the electrical. I think this qualifies me to place the letters "ASI" after my name. Well; I must admit I took a quick look at my physical systems text book, so hope it does not disqualify me. Frank Meredith ASI Article: 214993 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro References: <11d3gjeacauu7be@corp.supernews.com> <7dh3d1lfgbhqmb1asco5std57dviskbuah@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:29:13 GMT Richard Clark wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:50:50 -0700, Roy Lewallen > wrote: > > >>I'm afraid Lawrence Livermore will need more of a name than "zzl". And >>so will I. >> >>Roy Lewallen, W7EL > > > Z-Z-Low's Headers reveal 60.0.43.78 is located near: > No.156 Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street > Beijing 100031 > CN > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC In that case, he should be able to buy a pirated version at the local video store. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 214994 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Message-ID: References: <7uGdnYLYBKhfWEzfRVn-gg@comcast.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:32:36 GMT On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:04:39 -0500, bt wrote: >While we are on the subject, does anyone have a good source for the >capacitors used on this antenna? > >I have a HF6V thats been pretty mangled and want to rebuild it. > >thanks > >Bruce go to the www.bencher.com site; Butternut is also at that site and they have parts lists there -- you should be able to order from Butternut bob k5qwg Article: 214995 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro References: <11d3gjeacauu7be@corp.supernews.com> <7dh3d1lfgbhqmb1asco5std57dviskbuah@4ax.com> Message-ID: <9tkAe.277$_%4.44@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:04:53 GMT BUT--- does that include Tech Support ?? :) Richard Clark wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:29:13 GMT, "Tom Donaly" > wrote: > > >>In that case, he should be able to buy a pirated >>version at the local video store. > > > Hi Tom, > > Would seem so. We outsourced the manufacture of our Nuke Submarine > propellers to them, handing them the plans, and they sold the > technology around the world. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 214996 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Gotwals" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: References: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> <11d3bgi9lrmm832@corp.supernews.com> A plastic rod has been partially inserted into tube A (to a depth of perhaps 6") at the end which is above ground. Tube A and the rod have been drilled at right angles to their axes of symmetry, and a screw has been inserted into the hole, and where the screw protrudes on the opposite side of tube A, a nut has been attached and tightened. When the antenna is constructed, this screw will serve as the junction for one end of a base matching coil (Coil Q) and for the shield from a short length of 75? matching coax (Coax R). The instructions state that tube A can be placed in concrete, but they recommend slightly twisting tube A, while the concrete is setting, for easy removal later. The manual states "in areas of frequent or heavy winds a set of short non-conductive guys should be used to reduce the stresses that wind loading will impart to the lower sections of the antenna." As a first estimate, your friends cylindrical radome will have to have a diameter of at least 6", but I'll know more in a few days. John, N9JG "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:11d3bgi9lrmm832@corp.supernews.com... > Dear John: > > Indeed you have answered my questions. I also re-read the manual on > the > manufacturer's site. The full nature of "Tube A with insulator" is not > clear from the manual. > > Here is my read-back: "Tube A with insulator" is cylindrical, has a > diameter of 1.125 inches, a nominal overall length of two feet, and at the > end of "A" that is expected to be above ground is found a fiberglass solid > rod that is attached to the bottom part of "A" (composed of an unknown > substance) with a metal sleeve having an attachment bolt extending > radially > therefrom. Do I have it? > > My curiosity is driven by an interest to use one of these antennas as a > receiving antenna at the end of a very long piece of coax. From what you > have taught me, the bottom end of "A" probably should go into a > cylindrical > concrete foundation. (Wind here is unattenuated by trees.) I had been > under the impression that the "bottom" of this antenna was to be clamped > to > a pole that is driven (or set) into the ground. > > For quite a different reason than learning the nature of the "bottom" > of > the antenna, when you have the antenna working, please estimate the inside > diameter of a hollow cylindrical plastic tube that will be able fully to > enclose the antenna (as if the tube was a radome). I have a colleague > who > is thinking of a "flag pole." > > From DXEngineering and your comments, I now understand the wedges. > > Thank you for your assistance. > 73 Mac N8TT > > -- > J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. > Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net > "John Gotwals" wrote in message > news:das7l9$euh$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... >> I would have liked to have attached the picture to my initial posting, >> but >> since this is not a binaries newsgroup, I abstained. I do not yet have a >> website, so this seemed the best way to make the picture available. >> >> The Butternut HF6V is ground mounted by inserting a 1-1/8" X 24" tube > (tube >> A) into the ground to a depth of approximately 21" with about 3" of the >> tubing above ground. Tube A has a fiberglass insulator inserted in the > upper >> portion of the tube, and in addition to serving as an insulator, it is > used >> as the support for the next antenna tube (tube B). According to the >> directions, the upper end of the insulator should be about 7" above > ground. >> >> There are no plastic wedges, but I did clamp tube A to the DX Engineering >> stainless radial plate which included a wedge made from light metal, >> probably cast or forged aluminum. This wedge and a stainless u-bolt are > used >> to make an electrical and mechanical attachment between Tube A and the >> stainless radial plate. >> >> I hope I have answered your questions, >> John, N9JG >> >> "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message >> news:11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com... >> > Great picture! Unfortunately, it is accompanied by a lot of spam, some >> > of which I may need to reboot to get rid of. >> >> > Please describe the white, solid tube. Does it go into the ground? >> > Did >> > the large U-bolt and the plastic wedges come with the kit? Is the >> > tubular, >> > metal sleeve a splice? >> >> > > Article: 214997 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11d3gjeacauu7be@corp.supernews.com> <7dh3d1lfgbhqmb1asco5std57dviskbuah@4ax.com> Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:14:22 -0400 Message-ID: <56e1e$42d1e410$97d55c31$10419@ALLTEL.NET> I guess that means once Roy sells him a copy, we can all buy it for the usual $5.00 for a Chinese copy...:>) "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:7dh3d1lfgbhqmb1asco5std57dviskbuah@4ax.com... > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 17:50:50 -0700, Roy Lewallen > wrote: > > >I'm afraid Lawrence Livermore will need more of a name than "zzl". And > >so will I. > > > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL > > Z-Z-Low's Headers reveal 60.0.43.78 is located near: > No.156 Fu-Xing-Men-Nei Street > Beijing 100031 > CN > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 214998 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:48:46 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro References: Message-ID: <42d1ed21$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> zzl wrote: > I need eznec/4 pro now,where can I download it. You have to buy it first. I got mine on a CD. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 214999 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 00:55:58 -0400 Message-ID: <11d3uubthg00468@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> <11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com> My EE students, noting that the characteristic equations are the same, regularly convert mechanical problems (of the mass-spring-damper type) into electrical problems, solve, and then convert back to mechanical answers. Some ME students catch on and some just do not get it. Of course, it helps if one is using SI units all round. I continue to be in awe of MEs who always seem to know whether the "pounds" they are talking of are sort-of-like mass, or sort-of-like force, or money. I have even had it suggested that energy and power are sort-of the same thing. I am keen on Roy being the collector of titles. I have quite enough for a lifetime. 73 Mac N8TT etc. -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com... > Oops, I stand corrected -- thanks, Frank. Once again I read too hastily. > A *mass*/spring combination mimics an inductor/capacitor, of course. A > damper adds resistance. So a spring/damper combination would act more > like an RC or RL circuit, but with a little stray L or C from the > spring's mass. > > Hope I don't have to give up my new title. Titles really impress folks > in some parts of the world. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI, OFC > Article: 215000 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 22:08:04 -0700 Message-ID: <11d3vlnqak8tu73@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> <11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com> <11d3uubthg00468@corp.supernews.com> Years ago I tracked down a constriction ("resistance") in my house's water system with a bucket and stopwatch to measure flow ("current") and a fuel pump pressure gauge to measure watter pressure ("voltage") and a schematic of the "circuit". I kind of chuckled thinking of all the simplified explanations of electricity using water -- I found it much easier to convert in the other direction. As for "pounds", I was always off by the acceleration of gravity squared in the only two one-semester courses I took which weren't metric, Statics and Dynamics. I never could remember which of those units -- pounds mass, pounds force, poundals, slugs, aargh, had the acceleration already built in and which didn't. I finally managed by first converting each problem to metric, solving it, then converting the result back to that God-awful system of units. Roy Lewallen, W7EL J. Mc Laughlin wrote: > My EE students, noting that the characteristic equations are the same, > regularly convert mechanical problems (of the mass-spring-damper type) into > electrical problems, solve, and then convert back to mechanical answers. > Some ME students catch on and some just do not get it. Of course, it helps > if one is using SI units all round. I continue to be in awe of MEs who > always seem to know whether the "pounds" they are talking of are > sort-of-like mass, or sort-of-like force, or money. I have even had it > suggested that energy and power are sort-of the same thing. > > > I am keen on Roy being the collector of titles. I have quite enough for > a lifetime. 73 Mac N8TT etc. Article: 215001 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Nielsen Subject: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:08:17 -0700 Message-ID: Has anyone been able to get Eznec to run in Win4Lin (an emulator for running Windows as a Linux application)? I get the startup screen, but then an error window pops up saying EZWf14.DLL is missing. It is in the C:\Program Files/ezw directory (although Windows Explorer does not show it either). It works fine running Windows 98SE natively. Bob, N7XY Article: 215002 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:08:49 +0100 Message-ID: <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> Frank wrote: >The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; I'm sure you're right. However, a coil/capacitor is not a model or analogue of a spring/damper system. It was discussed extensively at the time. from Aero Spike Article: 215003 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:51:59 +0100 Message-ID: <0t74d1hv0gp3p0lcr80hpivnh2f155g1qg@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> Roy Lewallen wrote: >Spike wrote: >> >> Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper >> combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on >> the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? >> >> from >> Aero Spike > >I'm that idiot. Actually, one of the very many. The equations for the >two systems are identical. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL, ROW, ASI > (Reg's Old Wife and now Aero Spike's Idiot. The titles just keep > accumulating. Of course I'm also a proud member of the OFC.) Posting under the sock-puppet "Airy R. Bean", he said the following quoted below, and to which I was referring. I leave it to you to spot the glaring error. I very much doubt you said anything like this. The original message was posted in sci.physics at 9:53 am on 21st January this year. "Reactance is characterised by the storage of energy. In the case of the capacitor, you might think that your AC source is the only voltage source in your circuit, but after the first 1/4 cycle, the capacitor acts as a voltage source and starts to give back the energy that it has stored. The combined result of the two voltage sources, your AC excitation and the capacitor itself, accounts for the out-of-phase current waveform. (This bothered me for years! How could the current be non-zero if the AC driving voltage was zero?!) The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" from Aero Spike Article: 215004 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> From: Trevor Day Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:35 GMT In message , Walter Maxwell writes snip >Just try to imagine what you bloody 'ole Brits could have accomplished >around 1200 if you'd only had the tremendously high voltages achieved in the >near field of a CFA antenna to hurl at the enemy. > >Walt Excuse me for 'jumping in' here, it was difficult trying to locate a bit of the thread that referred to the current title (CFA) I would like to ask you learned chaps a question about the 'EH' antenna which I appreciate is not the same as the CFA but its near enough for me:-) I have built a couple of these and used them on 40m. Performance hasn't been brilliant but they have worked and I was reasonably satisfied with the contacts achieved considering the fact I used a barefoot K2 at around 10 watts o/p and the antenna was sat on the shack bench connected to the K2 by a 1 metre BNC to BNC cable laid across the bench. (I only mention this last to try and forestall the inevitable comment that the feeder does all the work) All of this was done out of interest just to see if the antenna worked at all, as my gut reaction was, and still is, sceptical regarding the claims of its method of operation. I am not a mathematician, so the various lengthy discussions regarding Maxwell's equations et al pass me by; I am more interested in the practical aspects of this rather than the theory. My question refers to the SWR bandwidth achieved using this system. For an electrically very short antenna of this type I expected something extremely sharp at resonance, perhaps in the order of 5 or 10 KHz between the 2:1 SWR points. In practice, the 2:1 SWR points are some 100 KHz or so apart. When fed with 100 watts from an IC706, the antenna itself does not get warm and neither does the short feeder so it doesn't appear to be acting as a dummy load. Can someone satisfy my curiosity and tell me (drawing comparisons with springs and dampers if need be:-) how this is achieved. Thanks, Trev G3ZYY -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org Article: 215005 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar > Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:26:14 +0100 Message-ID: <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:13:11 +0100, Spike wrote: >Can this be the same idiot who thought that a spring/damper >combination was the mechanical equivalent of a coil and capacitor, on >the grounds that they both exhibited resonance? > >from >Aero Spike This guy, being a brave keyboard warrior, likes to call people idiots. However, when confronted by children he acts like the coward he is. I append a short article of his when he was posting as 'RVMJ' > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:04:36 +0000, RVMJ 99g wrote: > > >Having been assaulted by two 'young people' in the garage at the back > >of my house, during which (being aware of the issues) I neither > >reacted or retaliated, I count myself lucky that they didn't concoct a > >story about the reverse being true. There were were no independent > >witnesses, and so their uncorroborated word as 'young people' would > >have been accepted without question, as is the normal practice. > > > >As they never surfaced before 10:30 on weekend mornings, I made sure > >that any outside work I wanted to do, such as car servicing or > >gardening, was done before that time, at which point I made myself > >scarce. Taking leave and doing jobs during the week wasn't on, as one > >couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't bunk off from school. > > > >As they used to congregate in the area of the garages, it meant I > >could never use my motorcycle without risking being accosted by them > >on my return, as there was no way of seeing if they were present. So > >for a year or two, until they discovered the world outside the area > >contained people of the opposite gender, I was a prisoner in my own > >house. Again, I count myself lucky that they only scratched my car > >four times, broke five radio aerials and two door mirrors, rendered > >the door-locks inoperative with matchsticks and slashed the tyres > >once. Young people need protection, did you say? Article: 215006 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:48:36 -0700 Message-ID: <11d4g3neii7f149@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> Trevor Day wrote: > Excuse me for 'jumping in' here, it was difficult trying to locate a bit > of the thread that referred to the current title (CFA) I would like to > ask you learned chaps a question about the 'EH' antenna which I > appreciate is not the same as the CFA but its near enough for me:-) > > I have built a couple of these and used them on 40m. Performance hasn't > been brilliant but they have worked and I was reasonably satisfied with > the contacts achieved considering the fact I used a barefoot K2 at > around 10 watts o/p and the antenna was sat on the shack bench connected > to the K2 by a 1 metre BNC to BNC cable laid across the bench. (I only > mention this last to try and forestall the inevitable comment that the > feeder does all the work) > > All of this was done out of interest just to see if the antenna worked > at all, as my gut reaction was, and still is, sceptical regarding the > claims of its method of operation. I am not a mathematician, so the > various lengthy discussions regarding Maxwell's equations et al pass me > by; I am more interested in the practical aspects of this rather than > the theory. My question refers to the SWR bandwidth achieved using this > system. For an electrically very short antenna of this type I expected > something extremely sharp at resonance, perhaps in the order of 5 or 10 > KHz between the 2:1 SWR points. In practice, the 2:1 SWR points are > some 100 KHz or so apart. When fed with 100 watts from an IC706, the > antenna itself does not get warm and neither does the short feeder so it > doesn't appear to be acting as a dummy load. Can someone satisfy my > curiosity and tell me (drawing comparisons with springs and dampers if > need be:-) how this is achieved. > > Thanks, > Trev G3ZYY > Sigh. A couple of questions: 1. Have you tried using something like a loop or other non-magical antenna of similar physical size for comparison? Or putting a 20 dB pad between your rig and a decent antenna? Most people are amazed at how much they can do with 100 mW. 2. I assume you're using a "phasing network" or some similar device to achieve whatever it is the antenna is supposed to accomplish. The wide bandwidth is a sure sign of loss, and the majority of it is just about surely in the "phasing network" and/or whatever matching network you're using. Have you checked to see if either of them is getting warm after a few minutes of key-down (with breaks to ID of course)? But don't be surprised it they don't. If you're running 100 watts of CW, your average power output is probably no more than 20 watts while transmitting. If you're running SSB, it's considerably less than that unless you're using serious compression. Try running your rig normally (keying or talking) to a good-sized dummy load and see how long it takes for it to get noticeably warm. Then imagine it to be the size of your matching/"phasing" network and think about what you'd expect to happen if it were absorbing *all* your transmitter's power. It is, after all, absorbing most of it. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 215007 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: From: Trevor Day Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:06:12 GMT In message <11d4g3neii7f149@corp.supernews.com>, Roy Lewallen writes >Trevor Day wrote: > >> Excuse me for 'jumping in' here, it was difficult trying to locate a >>bit of the thread that referred to the current title (CFA) I would >>like to ask you learned chaps a question about the 'EH' antenna which >>I appreciate is not the same as the CFA but its near enough for me:-) >> I have built a couple of these and used them on 40m. Performance >>hasn't been brilliant but they have worked and I was reasonably >>satisfied with the contacts achieved considering the fact I used a >>barefoot K2 at around 10 watts o/p and the antenna was sat on the >>shack bench connected to the K2 by a 1 metre BNC to BNC cable laid >>across the bench. (I only mention this last to try and forestall the >>inevitable comment that the feeder does all the work) >> All of this was done out of interest just to see if the antenna >>worked at all, as my gut reaction was, and still is, sceptical >>regarding the claims of its method of operation. I am not a >>mathematician, so the various lengthy discussions regarding Maxwell's >>equations et al pass me by; I am more interested in the practical >>aspects of this rather than the theory. My question refers to the >>SWR bandwidth achieved using this system. For an electrically very >>short antenna of this type I expected something extremely sharp at >>resonance, perhaps in the order of 5 or 10 KHz between the 2:1 SWR >>points. In practice, the 2:1 SWR points are some 100 KHz or so >>apart. When fed with 100 watts from an IC706, the antenna itself >>does not get warm and neither does the short feeder so it doesn't >>appear to be acting as a dummy load. Can someone satisfy my >>curiosity and tell me (drawing comparisons with springs and dampers if >>need be:-) how this is achieved. >> Thanks, >> Trev G3ZYY >> > >Sigh. > >A couple of questions: > >1. Have you tried using something like a loop or other non-magical >antenna of similar physical size for comparison? Or putting a 20 dB pad >between your rig and a decent antenna? Most people are amazed at how >much they can do with 100 mW. >2. I assume you're using a "phasing network" or some similar device to >achieve whatever it is the antenna is supposed to accomplish. The wide >bandwidth is a sure sign of loss, and the majority of it is just about >surely in the "phasing network" and/or whatever matching network you're >using. Have you checked to see if either of them is getting warm after >a few minutes of key-down (with breaks to ID of course)? > >But don't be surprised it they don't. If you're running 100 watts of >CW, your average power output is probably no more than 20 watts while >transmitting. If you're running SSB, it's considerably less than that >unless you're using serious compression. Try running your rig normally >(keying or talking) to a good-sized dummy load and see how long it >takes for it to get noticeably warm. Then imagine it to be the size of >your matching/"phasing" network and think about what you'd expect to >happen if it were absorbing *all* your transmitter's power. It is, >after all, absorbing most of it. > >Roy Lewallen, W7EL Roy, I think you got as far as my first paragraph and didn't read any further. I am not attempting to justify this antenna or the way it works, just trying to get an explanation for one aspect of it. If you had read what I had written you would have seen the answer to your questions above. Is it possible to 'mismatch', for want of a better expression, a loop to achieve an equivalent bandwidth? I have constructed many short verticals for portable and mobile use over the years, but have always experienced narrow bandwidth. It is this aspect of the 'EH' that I would like to understand. btw, starting your answer with "Sigh" might be justified if I appeared to be ignoring your continued advice but surely not at first meeting? Trev G3ZYY -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org Article: 215008 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David J Windisch" Subject: Thank you Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:11:41 GMT To all the fellas who eschew anonymity, embrace civility, keep humor dry and non-anatomical, occasionally expose the anon nitwits and their nitwit-eries ... and who post interesting stuff here. 73, Dave, N3HE Cincinnati OH Article: 215009 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 03:12:50 -0700 Message-ID: <11d4hh5mp525k82@corp.supernews.com> References: You'll also get that message if DFORRT.dll (which EZWf14.dll needs) is missing, defective, or in a place where EZWf14.dll can't find it, or if EZWf14.dll isn't functioning for any other reason. It also needs MSVCRT.dll, but I don't think Windows will function without that one. If I were you I'd track down why you're not seeing EZWf14.dll with Windows Explorer. It's a common type of dll, similar to Windows system dlls, and there's no reason it should be hidden. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Bob Nielsen wrote: > Has anyone been able to get Eznec to run in Win4Lin (an emulator for > running Windows as a Linux application)? I get the startup screen, but > then an error window pops up saying EZWf14.DLL is missing. It is in the > C:\Program Files/ezw directory (although Windows Explorer does not show it > either). It works fine running Windows 98SE natively. > > Bob, N7XY Article: 215010 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:30:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> Trev, Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same length of feedline. Try it and see. I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about 10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes to Clerk Maxwell. As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. ---- Reg. ==================================== . "Trevor Day" wrote in message news:2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com... > In message , Walter Maxwell > writes > snip > >Just try to imagine what you bloody 'ole Brits could have accomplished > >around 1200 if you'd only had the tremendously high voltages achieved in the > >near field of a CFA antenna to hurl at the enemy. > > > >Walt > > Excuse me for 'jumping in' here, it was difficult trying to locate a bit > of the thread that referred to the current title (CFA) I would like to > ask you learned chaps a question about the 'EH' antenna which I > appreciate is not the same as the CFA but its near enough for me:-) > > I have built a couple of these and used them on 40m. Performance hasn't > been brilliant but they have worked and I was reasonably satisfied with > the contacts achieved considering the fact I used a barefoot K2 at > around 10 watts o/p and the antenna was sat on the shack bench connected > to the K2 by a 1 metre BNC to BNC cable laid across the bench. (I only > mention this last to try and forestall the inevitable comment that the > feeder does all the work) > > All of this was done out of interest just to see if the antenna worked > at all, as my gut reaction was, and still is, sceptical regarding the > claims of its method of operation. I am not a mathematician, so the > various lengthy discussions regarding Maxwell's equations et al pass me > by; I am more interested in the practical aspects of this rather than > the theory. My question refers to the SWR bandwidth achieved using this > system. For an electrically very short antenna of this type I expected > something extremely sharp at resonance, perhaps in the order of 5 or 10 > KHz between the 2:1 SWR points. In practice, the 2:1 SWR points are > some 100 KHz or so apart. When fed with 100 watts from an IC706, the > antenna itself does not get warm and neither does the short feeder so it > doesn't appear to be acting as a dummy load. Can someone satisfy my > curiosity and tell me (drawing comparisons with springs and dampers if > need be:-) how this is achieved. > > Thanks, > Trev G3ZYY > > -- > Trevor Day > UKSMG #217 > www.uksmg.org Article: 215011 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: From: Trevor Day Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:47:55 GMT In message , Reg Edwards writes >Trev, >Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from >any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same >length of feedline. Try it and see. > >I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about >10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a >downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from >a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes >to Clerk Maxwell. > >As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. >---- >Reg. Thanks Reg, I expect you are quite right, but I am still puzzled about the bandwidth aspect. Roy states that this is due to losses in the matching system, in which case would it be possible to 'detune' a similar small antenna and get similar results in that regard. If I can actually do that and see the result, then I will be happy :-) Trev -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org Article: 215012 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "MattD.." Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:27:51 +0100 Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <11d3c2korn62158@corp.supernews.com> On Monday 11 Jul 2005 00:34, the world held its breath whilst J. Mc Laughlin delivered the following wit: > Practice was also compulsory. Believe it or not, it still is compulsory for an able-bodied male to practice his archery skills on the village green on a Sunday... -- Radio glossary #13 Integrated circuit: You have the only one in existence. This theory will be borne out when you try to obtain a replacement. Article: 215013 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Andy Cowley Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwa Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:31:53 GMT Trevor Day wrote: > In message , Reg > Edwards writes > >> Trev, >> Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from >> any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same >> length of feedline. Try it and see. >> >> I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about >> 10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a >> downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from >> a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes >> to Clerk Maxwell. >> >> As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. >> ---- >> Reg. > > > Thanks Reg, > > I expect you are quite right, but I am still puzzled about the bandwidth > aspect. Roy states that this is due to losses in the matching system, > in which case would it be possible to 'detune' a similar small antenna > and get similar results in that regard. If I can actually do that and > see the result, then I will be happy :-) > > Trev Try running it it parallel with a suitable resistive load. You will see increased 'bandwidth', i.e. the SWR will be lower over a greater frequency range. If you eliminate the aerial altogether then the 'bandwidth' will cover frequencies up to several GHz with a good quality load ;-) I have actually worked a local amateur dummy load to dummy load. Both loads were good quality (one Bird, one Marconi) and all the cabling was short and good quality coax. Leakage was probably less than a few milliwatts. The rigs had different IFs so it probably was the signal frequency we were hearing. Being able to work stations is no measure of antenna efficiency. Heating is not a good way of determining efficiency unless you do real calorimetry. I've tried 100W CW key down into a real 100W continuous load (not one of the Made From Junk ones, which are grossly overrated), for ten minutes and the temperature increase was just discernible, it certainly didn't get hot. vy 73 Andy, M1EBV vy 73 Andy, M1EBV Article: 215014 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 04:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: <11d4nbka4e24idd@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <11d4g3neii7f149@corp.supernews.com> Trevor Day wrote: > > Roy, > > I think you got as far as my first paragraph and didn't read any further. > > I am not attempting to justify this antenna or the way it works, just > trying to get an explanation for one aspect of it. If you had read what > I had written you would have seen the answer to your questions above. > > Is it possible to 'mismatch', for want of a better expression, a loop to > achieve an equivalent bandwidth? Yes. Put a resistor in series or parallel with it, or put a pad (attenuator) between it and your rig. When you find the value that gets you the bandwidth of the CFA, you'll also have about the same efficiency. The power will be going into the resistor instead of into the "phasing" and/or matching networks. I have constructed many short > verticals for portable and mobile use over the years, but have always > experienced narrow bandwidth. It is this aspect of the 'EH' that I > would like to understand. It's loss, plain and simple. > btw, starting your answer with "Sigh" might be justified if I appeared > to be ignoring your continued advice but surely not at first meeting? Sort of. You apparently didn't check groups.google.com to see the great mass of postings I and others have made about those antennas, many times before. A tremendous amount has been written and posted about the CFA and EH antennas. But like astrology, homeopathy, and other hoaxes, no amount of objective evidence keeps people from wanting to believe. Either they don't search it out, they're not able to evaluate it when they find it, or they choose to ignore it when it threatens their beliefs. It's resigning myself to that sad certainty and the Sisyphusian (Sisyphusan?) task of combatting it which makes me sigh. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 215015 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:29:48 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> Trev, As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the wideband antenna system. Unless one knows how the thing is supposed to work, which with EH and CFA is not very likely, there's no indication of where the loss may be except from a visual examination. If there are any coils of relatively thin wire, either in the antenna or tuner/phaser, then that's a good pointer. But experimenting to improve the bandwidth*efficiency product, one way or the other, will not get you very far. As one goes up the other is sure to go down. It's not difficult to guess which you would prefer. A magloop. with a single turn coil of copper pipe at the lower frequencies, is far and away the most narrow banded and therefore the most efficient of all the small antennas. Furthermore it has a built-in, equally very low loss tuner. ---- Reg. ====================================== "Trevor Day" wrote in message news:SIjsykHa0k0CFwRh@secornwall.com... > In message , Reg > Edwards writes > >Trev, > >Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from > >any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same > >length of feedline. Try it and see. > > > >I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about > >10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a > >downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from > >a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes > >to Clerk Maxwell. > > > >As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. > >---- > >Reg. > > Thanks Reg, > > I expect you are quite right, but I am still puzzled about the bandwidth > aspect. Roy states that this is due to losses in the matching system, > in which case would it be possible to 'detune' a similar small antenna > and get similar results in that regard. If I can actually do that and > see the result, then I will be happy :-) > > Trev > -- > Trevor Day > UKSMG #217 > www.uksmg.org Article: 215016 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:51:22 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwa Being able to work stations is no measure of antenna efficiency. > What then, is the true relationship which affects the ability to work stations. Article: 215017 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:28:30 -0400 Message-ID: <11d4sv79jg9be05@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <11d3g58e0argi7f@corp.supernews.com> <2ojAe.145746$on1.39889@clgrps13> <11d3h3g68cv8457@corp.supernews.com> <11d3uubthg00468@corp.supernews.com> <11d3vlnqak8tu73@corp.supernews.com> Dear Roy: I am in complete agreement. As an example, when dealing with antenna tower evaluation I convert everything about the tower to SI (knowing the approximate SI density of materials helps to ensure that the conversion was done correctly), and then do the evaluation. When it comes to the design of foundations, I need to convert the SI answer back into the other units so that the skilled trades are able to do their thing. How silly to have a system that depends on an assumed gravitational system. 73 Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11d3vlnqak8tu73@corp.supernews.com... > Years ago I tracked down a constriction ("resistance") in my house's > water system with a bucket and stopwatch to measure flow ("current") and > a fuel pump pressure gauge to measure water pressure ("voltage") and a > schematic of the "circuit". I kind of chuckled thinking of all the > simplified explanations of electricity using water -- I found it much > easier to convert in the other direction. > > As for "pounds", I was always off by the acceleration of gravity squared > in the only two one-semester courses I took which weren't metric, > Statics and Dynamics. I never could remember which of those units -- > pounds mass, pounds force, poundals, slugs, aargh, had the acceleration > already built in and which didn't. I finally managed by first converting > each problem to metric, solving it, then converting the result back to > that God-awful system of units. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL > Article: 215018 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:33:44 -0400 Message-ID: <11d4t91f872aucd@corp.supernews.com> References: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> <11d3bgi9lrmm832@corp.supernews.com> Dear John: Thank you. I understand even more about "A." Is it correct to assume that the metallic part of "A" is aluminum? Thank you also for your first estimate of the ID needed to enclose the whole antenna. That is of great help. 73, Mac N8TT -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "John Gotwals" wrote in message news:daslif$ldg$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > A plastic rod has been partially inserted into tube A (to a depth of perhaps > 6") at the end which is above ground. Tube A and the rod have been drilled > at right angles to their axes of symmetry, and a screw has been inserted > into the hole, and where the screw protrudes on the opposite side of tube A, > a nut has been attached and tightened. When the antenna is constructed, this > screw will serve as the junction for one end of a base matching coil (Coil > Q) and for the shield from a short length of 75? matching coax (Coax R). > > The instructions state that tube A can be placed in concrete, but they > recommend slightly twisting tube A, while the concrete is setting, for easy > removal later. > > The manual states "in areas of frequent or heavy winds a set of short > non-conductive guys should be used to reduce the stresses that wind loading > will impart to the lower sections of the antenna." > > As a first estimate, your friends cylindrical radome will have to have a > diameter of at least 6", but I'll know more in a few days. > > John, N9JG > Article: 215019 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V mounting tube with SS radial plate Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:09:06 -0500 Message-ID: References: <11d2tm5pnehb56e@corp.supernews.com> <11d3bgi9lrmm832@corp.supernews.com> <11d4t91f872aucd@corp.supernews.com> Yes, the metallic portion of tube A is aluminum. "J. Mc Laughlin" wrote in message news:11d4t91f872aucd@corp.supernews.com... > Dear John: > Thank you. I understand even more about "A." Is it correct to assume > that the metallic part of "A" is aluminum? > > > Thank you also for your first estimate of the ID needed to enclose the > whole antenna. That is of great help. > > 73, Mac N8TT > -- Article: 215020 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: Thank you Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:10:10 -0400 Message-ID: References: David J Windisch wrote: > To all the fellas who eschew anonymity, embrace civility, keep humor dry and > non-anatomical, occasionally expose the anon nitwits and their nitwit-eries > ... and who post interesting stuff here. > > 73, Dave, N3HE > Cincinnati OH Hear, hear! This should be posted in more groups! - Mike KB3EIA - Article: 215021 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: <8avAe.19439$x82.1129@fe03.lga> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:14:35 -0400 "Trevor Day" wrote in message news:SIjsykHa0k0CFwRh@secornwall.com... > In message , Reg > Edwards writes > >Trev, > >Performance is no better and no worse than what can be expected from > >any other sort of antenna of about the same physical size and the same > >length of feedline. Try it and see. > > > >I once worked 3 miles on SSB, on 160m, in broad daylight, with about > >10 milliwatts, on 8 feet of wire lying on the ground, thrown out of a > >downstairs window. The ground connection was via 10 feet of wire from > >a domestic gas pipe. But I don't brag about it. The credit all goes > >to Clerk Maxwell. > > > >As Clerk implied, any bloody thing works. > >---- > >Reg. You want QRP, Trev, I'll give you QRP. The telemetry transmitters used on the early TIROS weather satellites delivered only 10 milliwatts, yet they produced an S9 signal at a 400 mile high orbit at maximum slant range of 1800 miles to the horizon. I don't know about other TV satellites, but the RCA Satcoms of the late 70s and early 80s used transmitters that delivered only 5 watts at an altitude of 23,000 miles. (I will have to admit, however, that 5 watts into its 30 dB dish produced an EIRP of 5 kw.) Walt, W2DU ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Article: 215022 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:07:52 +0200 From: "Jochen Schaeuble" Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin References: Message-ID: Hi, I'm running EZNEC using Wine (Codeweaver Office version) as well as VMWare. Everything works fine here. Have you tried using Wine instead of Win4Lin? If I remember correct than Win4Lin is a virtual machine just like VMWare. Is this correct? vy 73 de Jochen, DG1PSI On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:08:17 +0200, Bob Nielsen wrote: > Has anyone been able to get Eznec to run in Win4Lin (an emulator for > running Windows as a Linux application)? I get the startup screen, but > then an error window pops up saying EZWf14.DLL is missing. It is in the > C:\Program Files/ezw directory (although Windows Explorer does not show > it > either). It works fine running Windows 98SE natively. > > Bob, N7XY -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ Article: 215023 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:42:28 GMT "Spike" wrote in message news:9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com... > Frank wrote: > >>The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; > > I'm sure you're right. > > However, a coil/capacitor is not a model or analogue of a > spring/damper system. It was discussed extensively at the time. > > from > Aero Spike I am not sure I understand your response. To be exact a "spring/damper" can be modeled as a coil/resistor. For resonance to occur you need a capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical or electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. Regards, Frank Article: 215024 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:46:26 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42d2b175$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Wes Stewart wrote: > Over here in 'Merica they're called "Social Security Cards." Every > newborn baby is required to have one. But the illegal aliens can get their GED without one. They are issued a non-SS tracking number instead of SS#. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215025 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <2lh1ZgOQBr0CFwH4@secornwall.com> From: Trevor Day Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:47:02 GMT In message , Reg Edwards writes >Trev, > >As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given >size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the >wideband antenna system. > >Unless one knows how the thing is supposed to work, which with EH and >CFA is not very likely, there's no indication of where the loss may be >except from a visual examination. If there are any coils of >relatively thin wire, either in the antenna or tuner/phaser, then >that's a good pointer. > >But experimenting to improve the bandwidth*efficiency product, one way >or the other, will not get you very far. As one goes up the other is >sure to go down. It's not difficult to guess which you would prefer. > >A magloop. with a single turn coil of copper pipe at the lower >frequencies, is far and away the most narrow banded and therefore the >most efficient of all the small antennas. Furthermore it has a >built-in, equally very low loss tuner. >---- >Reg. Thanks for your time Reg, I drafted a lengthy response to your note above a little earlier but binned it in favour of this :-) I suppose my problem is that I would dearly like to believe the claims for the EH et al but my head tells me that it can't be so. I have had a lot of fun 'playing' with the idea and I suppose I should be happy with that. Trev -- Trevor Day UKSMG #217 www.uksmg.org Article: 215026 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:48:16 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> Message-ID: <42d2b1e3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Fry wrote: > "Reg Edwards" >> As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given >> size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the >> wideband antenna system. > > I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a > reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast > transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every > watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" > losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna > transmit sites all over the world. And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215027 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:49:26 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the category 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn I suppose. Here is the direct link.. 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net Article: 215028 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:51:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> So ? Article: 215029 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:49 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> Charlie wrote: > In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated > riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the category > 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn I > suppose. Here is the direct link.. > > 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html > Your point would have been better if you had used actual before and after pictures. If you check the name on each picture you will find that they are the same exact file. Nice try... Dave N Article: 215030 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:13:20 +0100 Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Frank wrote: >"Spike" wrote in message >news:9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com... >> Frank wrote: >> >>>The spring and damper can be exactly model as an electrical analog; >> >> I'm sure you're right. >> >> However, a coil/capacitor is not a model or analogue of a >> spring/damper system. It was discussed extensively at the time. >> > >I am not sure I understand your response. To be exact a "spring/damper" can >be modeled as a coil/resistor. I refer you my other post on the subject, where I quote the OP in full. >For resonance to occur you need a >capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical or >electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential >equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). from Aero Spike Article: 215031 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:19 -0700 Message-ID: <11d5ecif839d33f@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> Richard Fry wrote: > > I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a > reality check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast > transmission have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every > watt that can be delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" > losses. They have been in routine use for decades at master antenna > transmit sites all over the world. Now shrink down those antennas by a factor of, say, 10 in size. Think they'd still do it? If so, you're the natural prey for the charlatans. In product development, we say fast-cheap-good, pick any two. With antennas it's small-efficient-broadband, pick any two. "Small" is, of course, always in terms of wavelength when it comes to antennas. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 215032 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:38:57 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Richard Fry" wrote in message news:42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net... > "Reg Edwards" > > As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of given > > size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the > > wideband antenna system. > ________________ > > I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a reality > check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast transmission > have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that can be > delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They have been > in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over the > world. > > RF ================================== I've no reason to doubt it. But this is a topic about the bandwidth of physically small HF antennas. And as usual, when the slightest difference of opinion occurs, somebody invariably feels impelled to go off at a tangent and drag in something they feel more at home with, such as VHF and UHF TV transmitting antennas, and, very soon, if we are not careful, distractions such as scattering parameters, reflected power, etc. ---- Reg From Whomever you wish... good luck. Sun Jul 17 12:49:55 EDT 2005 Article: 215033 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: TokaMundo Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: WeedTokrsRUs Reply-To: Whomever you wish... good luck. Message-ID: <8cf5d1dpgdvlij4g9nu2hmf4g5ni0oovr3@4ax.com> References: <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:43:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.30.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: tornado.socal.rr.com 1121107428 24.165.30.54 (Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:43:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:43:48 PDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!tornado.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:235450 alt.engineering.electrical:111871 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:215033 On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:51:06 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" Gave us: >So ? > Do you even know how to make a proper Usenet post? Oh... I see now... that's right... yet another dolt posting with Outhouse Express. Do a google on "Newsreader". You'll see many out there. There is a reason for that. Hell, even the one in Mozilla is better than Billy's utter crap. Bone Up! From Whomever you wish... good luck. Sun Jul 17 12:49:55 EDT 2005 Article: 215034 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: TokaMundo Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: WeedTokrsRUs Reply-To: Whomever you wish... good luck. Message-ID: References: <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 42 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:44:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.30.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: tornado.socal.rr.com 1121107491 24.165.30.54 (Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:44:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:44:51 PDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!cyclone.southeast.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!tornado.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:235451 alt.engineering.electrical:111872 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:215034 On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:38:57 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" Gave us: > >"Richard Fry" wrote in message >news:42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net... >> "Reg Edwards" >> > As Cecil says, a wider than expected bandwidth in an antenna of >given >> > size, is an absolutely sure sign of greater loss somewhere in the >> > wideband antenna system. >> ________________ >> >> I don't know your definition of an "expected bandwidth," but for a >reality >> check--many forms of panel antennas used in FM and TV broadcast >transmission >> have 20% or better SWR bandwidth, and radiate nearly every watt that >can be >> delivered by the feedline with almost NO "matching" losses. They >have been >> in routine use for decades at master antenna transmit sites all over >the >> world. >> >> RF >================================== > >I've no reason to doubt it. > >But this is a topic about the bandwidth of physically small HF >antennas. > >And as usual, when the slightest difference of opinion occurs, >somebody invariably feels impelled to go off at a tangent and drag in >something they feel more at home with, such as VHF and UHF TV >transmitting antennas, and, very soon, if we are not careful, >distractions such as scattering parameters, reflected power, etc. >---- >Reg > Ever heard of a diversity receiver? Article: 215035 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:54:43 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> <11d5ecif839d33f@corp.supernews.com> "Roy Lewallen" wrote - > Now shrink down those antennas by a factor of, say, 10 in size. Think > they'd still do it? If so, you're the natural prey for the charlatans. > =============================== Roy, I'm thinking of occasionally changing 'old wives' to 'charlatans'. It may sometimes better fit the circumstances. ---- Reg. Article: 215036 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:58:50 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5gbpnl960keb@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> The images are the same yeah...DUH!! Since there was no damage.....except perhaps your brain damage. You don't catch on too fast do you? -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com... > Charlie wrote: >> In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated >> riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the >> category 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live >> and learn I suppose. Here is the direct link.. >> >> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html >> > > > Your point would have been better if you had used actual before and after > pictures. If you check the name on each picture you will find that they > are the same exact file. Nice try... > > Dave N Article: 215037 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:04:11 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> <42d2b1e3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> "Cecil Moore" said, > And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. > =================================== As it was quite true you just as well could have said it. So I didn't take the trouble to correct the minor error. Sorry Roy. === Reg. Article: 215038 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:05:12 GMT On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:49 -0500, "David G. Nagel" wrote: >Charlie wrote: >> In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated >> riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the category >> 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn I >> suppose. Here is the direct link.. >> >> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html >> > > >Your point would have been better if you had used actual before and >after pictures. If you check the name on each picture you will find that >they are the same exact file. Nice try... > >Dave N Not sure what Charlie's point is -- the Dennis hurricane historical map doesn't show it anywhere close to Union, Mississippi... bob k5qwg Article: 215039 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:24:29 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> > Ever heard of a diversity receiver? ============================== You seem to enjoy starting useless arguments. Are you a troll? Spacial or frequency diversity? Leave me out of it. --- Reg. Article: 215040 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:28:59 -0400 Message-ID: While the after picture may represent the condition of your tower after the storm, it is NOT an after picture. Why the false representation? "Charlie" wrote in message news:11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com... > In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated > riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the category > 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn I > suppose. Here is the direct link.. > > 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > > > > > > Article: 215041 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:33:33 GMT >>For resonance to occur you need a >>capacitor/inductor, or mass/spring. All components of either mechanical >>or >>electrical circuits require the solution of the same simple differential >>equation, such as i = C*dv/dt etc. > > No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the > mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly > not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that > dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the > mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not > possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to > likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a > fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). > > from > Aero Spike I am not aware of a damper ever being considered a storage device. Capacitance is equivalent to mass, Inductance is equivalent to a spring, and resistance equivalent to a damper. Am I missing something? Anyway will read later posts and see what I can get out of it. Frank From Whomever you wish... good luck. Sun Jul 17 12:49:57 EDT 2005 Article: 215042 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: TokaMundo Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: WeedTokrsRUs Reply-To: Whomever you wish... good luck. Message-ID: <9bi5d1h20b9mvvdhvmuiqiusebve6aqvif@4ax.com> References: <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:35:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.30.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: tornado.socal.rr.com 1121110530 24.165.30.54 (Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:35:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:35:30 PDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!worldnet.att.net!24.30.200.11!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!tornado.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:235459 alt.engineering.electrical:111879 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:215042 On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:24:29 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" Gave us: >> Ever heard of a diversity receiver? > >============================== > >You seem to enjoy starting useless arguments. You're retarded to think that asking that question is an attempt to start an argument. It was an honest question. >Are you a troll? This is even more retarded. >Spacial or frequency diversity? Spacial, dufus... it relates. If you are aware of the type, you should have already known the answer. Unless all you did was a simple google. That would make you simple. >Leave me out of it. Not a problem... You don't rate anyway after this baby bullshit post. Article: 215043 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:35:57 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all but a very few "tower experts" predicted. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:a3b4f$42d2c87e$97d55c31$19268@ALLTEL.NET... > While the after picture may represent the condition of your tower after > the > storm, it is NOT an after picture. Why the false representation? > > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com... >> In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated >> riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the > category >> 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn > I >> suppose. Here is the direct link.. >> >> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html >> >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> >> >> >> >> > > Article: 215044 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:37:57 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> That's crap John....provide a link that shows the track "nowhere near". We were under a Inland Hurricane" warning from 5PM last night. Maybe your cartographer skills are a little rusty. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Bob Miller" wrote in message news:8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com... > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:08:49 -0500, "David G. Nagel" > wrote: > >>Charlie wrote: >>> In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated >>> riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the >>> category >>> 4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and >>> learn I >>> suppose. Here is the direct link.. >>> >>> 1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html >>> >> >> >>Your point would have been better if you had used actual before and >>after pictures. If you check the name on each picture you will find that >>they are the same exact file. Nice try... >> >>Dave N > > Not sure what Charlie's point is -- the Dennis hurricane historical > map doesn't show it anywhere close to Union, Mississippi... > > bob > k5qwg > > Article: 215045 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:40:15 GMT > No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the > mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly > not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that > dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the > mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not > possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to > likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a > fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). > > from > Aero Spike Is this what you are talking about? "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. Frank Article: 215046 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Me Subject: Re: A car with 6 antennas References: <11com00fa5n1r74@corp.supernews.com> <18dd6$42d0402a$97d55c31$9215@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:42:15 GMT In article , "Walter Maxwell" wrote: > Riley wouldn't hide behind 'me'. > > Walt > Oh I don't know about that, I am a fairly LARGE guy....and Riley might be able to hide behind "Me"...... Me Article: 215047 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:46:32 GMT On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:37:57 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >That's crap John....provide a link that shows the track "nowhere near". We >were under a Inland Hurricane" warning from 5PM last night. Maybe your >cartographer skills are a little rusty. Looks like it was hitting Mississippi up around Columbus, and heading North from you... How high did your winds get ... in Union? http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200504.html bob k5qwg Article: 215048 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:51:11 GMT Beanie's bum chum > This guy, being a brave keyboard warrior, likes to call people idiots. > However, when confronted by children he acts like the coward he is. > I append a short article of his when he was posting as 'RVMJ' > > >>On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:04:36 +0000, RVMJ 99g wrote: >> >> >>>Having been assaulted by two 'young people' in the garage at the back >>>of my house, during which (being aware of the issues) I neither >>>reacted or retaliated, I count myself lucky that they didn't concoct a >>>story about the reverse being true. There were were no independent >>>witnesses, and so their uncorroborated word as 'young people' would >>>have been accepted without question, as is the normal practice. >>> >>>As they never surfaced before 10:30 on weekend mornings, I made sure >>>that any outside work I wanted to do, such as car servicing or >>>gardening, was done before that time, at which point I made myself >>>scarce. Taking leave and doing jobs during the week wasn't on, as one >>>couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't bunk off from school. >>> >>>As they used to congregate in the area of the garages, it meant I >>>could never use my motorcycle without risking being accosted by them >>>on my return, as there was no way of seeing if they were present. So >>>for a year or two, until they discovered the world outside the area >>>contained people of the opposite gender, I was a prisoner in my own >>>house. Again, I count myself lucky that they only scratched my car >>>four times, broke five radio aerials and two door mirrors, rendered >>>the door-locks inoperative with matchsticks and slashed the tyres >>>once. Young people need protection, did you say? Well done! You've mastered the art of cut & paste. What's next, a black belt in Origami? -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 215049 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:52:11 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5jfk6llsevec@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> Bob, The storm was not a pinpoint single line width across the map but over 3 0 0 m i l e s wide. I did not measure the "winds in Union". If they were not high enough for you then maybe better luck next time. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Bob Miller" wrote in message news:d2j5d1p42ijbbk42io91f809mhb7mig37e@4ax.com... > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:37:57 -0500, "Charlie" > wrote: > >>That's crap John....provide a link that shows the track "nowhere near". We >>were under a Inland Hurricane" warning from 5PM last night. Maybe your >>cartographer skills are a little rusty. > > Looks like it was hitting Mississippi up around Columbus, and heading > North from you... > > How high did your winds get ... in Union? > > http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200504.html > > bob > k5qwg > > Article: 215050 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: <4uj5d111ebenscmhd8seur1qm9geantdmu@4ax.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> <11d5jfk6llsevec@news.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:07:44 GMT On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:52:11 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >Bob, >The storm was not a pinpoint single line width across the map but over 3 0 0 >m i l e s wide. I did not measure the "winds in Union". If they were not >high enough for you then maybe better luck next time. According to the storm category indications on the map at http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200504.html "Hurricane Dennis" was actually a "tropical depression" before it ever crossed into Mississippi, some distance north of Union. Charlie, I would never wish high winds upon anyone, but before you brag about riding out a Category 4 Hurricane, you should be a little more accurate in your terminology :-) Have a good one... bob k5qwg From Whomever you wish... good luck. Sun Jul 17 12:49:59 EDT 2005 Article: 215051 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: TokaMundo Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: WeedTokrsRUs Reply-To: Whomever you wish... good luck. Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 30 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:10:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.30.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: tornado.socal.rr.com 1121112617 24.165.30.54 (Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:17 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:10:17 PDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!news-east.rr.com!news-feed-01.tampabay.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!tornado.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:235468 alt.engineering.electrical:111882 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:215051 On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:40:15 GMT, "Frank" Gave us: >> No-one was arguing that that was not the case. A spring might have the >> mechanical equivalent of reactance, but a damper will most certainly >> not - hence the rubbish posted by the OP, where he believes that >> dampers store energy. They do not, and therefore cannot have the >> mechanical equivalence of a reactance. Therefore, resonance is not >> possible with such a system. In the extreme, the OP was reduced to >> likening dampers to bicycle pumps, a sure sign of a failure to grasp a >> fundamental point (and hence the error of his assertion). >> >> from >> Aero Spike > >Is this what you are talking about? > >"The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; >the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber >stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock >absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" > >I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. > >Frank > Shock absorbers store no energy. They are pure dampers which dampen more in one direction than the other. Gas filled shocks, and spring-over-shocks are another story. From Whomever you wish... good luck. Sun Jul 17 12:49:59 EDT 2005 Article: 215052 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: TokaMundo Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: WeedTokrsRUs Reply-To: Whomever you wish... good luck. Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:11:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.165.30.54 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: tornado.socal.rr.com 1121112705 24.165.30.54 (Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:11:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:11:45 PDT Organization: Road Runner High Speed Online http://www.rr.com Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!199.45.49.37!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!hwmnpeer01.lga!hwmedia!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!tornado.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:235469 alt.engineering.electrical:111883 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:215052 On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:51:11 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Gave us: >73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. Chimay Gold Belgian Ale... The slurry of the gods... Gimmie two pints, please... Article: 215053 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0700 Message-ID: <11d5kkfjaejr852@corp.supernews.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> <11d5ecif839d33f@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > > Roy, I'm thinking of occasionally changing 'old wives' to > 'charlatans'. It may sometimes better fit the circumstances. > ---- > Reg. Oh, boy! Then maybe before long I'll be able to add "RC" to my impressive and growing list of titles! Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 215054 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar > Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:17:23 +0100 Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:51:11 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI wrote: >Beanie's bum chum > >> This guy, being a brave keyboard warrior, likes to call people idiots. >> However, when confronted by children he acts like the coward he is. >> I append a short article of his when he was posting as 'RVMJ' >> >> >>>On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:04:36 +0000, RVMJ 99g wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Having been assaulted by two 'young people' in the garage at the back >>>>of my house, during which (being aware of the issues) I neither >>>>reacted or retaliated, I count myself lucky that they didn't concoct a >>>>story about the reverse being true. There were were no independent >>>>witnesses, and so their uncorroborated word as 'young people' would >>>>have been accepted without question, as is the normal practice. >>>> >>>>As they never surfaced before 10:30 on weekend mornings, I made sure >>>>that any outside work I wanted to do, such as car servicing or >>>>gardening, was done before that time, at which point I made myself >>>>scarce. Taking leave and doing jobs during the week wasn't on, as one >>>>couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't bunk off from school. >>>> >>>>As they used to congregate in the area of the garages, it meant I >>>>could never use my motorcycle without risking being accosted by them >>>>on my return, as there was no way of seeing if they were present. So >>>>for a year or two, until they discovered the world outside the area >>>>contained people of the opposite gender, I was a prisoner in my own >>>>house. Again, I count myself lucky that they only scratched my car >>>>four times, broke five radio aerials and two door mirrors, rendered >>>>the door-locks inoperative with matchsticks and slashed the tyres >>>>once. Young people need protection, did you say? >Well done! You've mastered the art of cut & paste. >What's next, a black belt in Origami? Thanks for posting the entire article again. That shows the level of your intelligence. How many bags do you get through in a month? Article: 215055 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: <3%Yye.13220$Si3.1138@fe06.lga> <25toc1129od79tf8anm67h16an9fajpit1@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Calculating loss on a mismatched line Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:27:21 -0400 "Owen" wrote in message news:a6d1d15hvsbgksu5t7fj3duv3o44k59eho@4ax.com... > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:18 -0400, "Walter Maxwell" > wrote: > > > >I'm trying to understand your Mathcad presentations, but I've run into some > >roadblocks concerning terminology, some of which I'm not familiar with. I > >confess my questions prove my ignorance, but that's ok if one's trying to > >learn. However, I was using nominal Zo. > > Not at all, you are far more eminent that I on this topic, and I > appreciate your review. I am learning from all this. > > Apologies for the difficulty in understanding my notation. Some of it > breaks into psuedo programming code. > > > >First, Xo!=0. I don't know what this means. > > Not equals. > > >Second, what does MML stand for in English? > > MLL? Matched Line Loss (dB/m) > > >Third, in 'functions for V, I, Z, etc at z'. Where is 'z'? I cannot find any > >reference to it. > > These quantities are a function of z, where z is a position on the > line. The convention that I have used for displacement is that it is > negative towards the generator. When it matters, displacement is in > metres. The z is just used in definition of some functions in Matchcad > (where you see :=), I have used x for position variable in the graphs. > > >Fourth, 'exp'. Exponent? If so, of what? e? > > exp(x) is e to the power of x (For clarity, I shouldn't have written > it that way, it works, but Mathcad understands the meaning of e > superscript x as e to the power of x, as you will see in some of the > expressions, and it is easier to read.) > > >Fifth, I understand 'x' as distance along the line from the termination, but > >what is 'y'? > > In some of the functions, I have written them to calculate some > quantity between two arbitrary points x and y. They are used in the > definition of fuctions (where you see :=). Most of the graphs use 0 > for y so they are plotted wrt the load position > > >Sixth, what is AppLoss? Approximate? Apparent? Applied? > > Approximate Loss, and it was incorrectly based on Zo rather than > nominal Zo. > > >Seventh, 'DLoss'. What is 'D'? Dielectric? Again, what is the 'y' term? An > >ordinate value? > > DLoss was equivalent to AppLoss. > > >Eighth, in the LineLoss(x,y) = 10log... the identical right-hand terms in > >both numerator and denominator, the identical functions of 'e^^ x e^^. what > >is the meaning of the bar above the second appearance of 'e'? And above > >gamma(x)? > > The bar above the variable is the complex conjugate operator. > > > > >I want to understand your math presentation, Owen, especially when I see > >that Loss(x,0 - W2DUloss(x,0) is so small I want to understand what makes > >the difference. So I'd appreciate it if you'd set me straight on the points > >I made above. > > Walt, in the models at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/LineLoss.htm , I now > know why there is such a gap between DLoss and LineLoss. You will > recognise AppLoss / DLoss is your Appendix 8 expression, but my rho > function was based on the modelled complex value of Zo (characteristic > impedance), not the nominal value of Zo. > > In the second lot at http://www.vk1od.net/temp/reflection.htm , > AppLoss is equivalent to DLoss and it is based on nominal Zo, W2DULoss > you will see calculates the rho term (though not identified) using > nominal Ro. > > Comparing the results with loss calcuated from P(x)/P(y) (the ratio of > the real power at points x and y), the conclusion is that using your > expression with actual Zo is not at all accurate, using it with > nominal Zo is very close. If I force Zo to be real for all modelling, > the results of all methods is exactly the same (within rounding errors > of the order of 10 to the power of -14) > > Some of your questions are just about the Mathcad notation (though > that is not too dissimilar to normal handwritten math notation), but > some of it is my expression and usage. Again my apologies for > confusing with too little explanation. I appreciate your review and > comments Walt. > > Owen Thank you, Owen, for kicking aside the roadblocks preventing me from understanding your math presentation. I get it now, and realize I was a knothead for being confused. It is now perfectly clear why one can't get the true answer using my expressions for calculating loss on the line when using only the nominal Zo and not the actual Zo when there is loss. I should have known that intuitively, and why it escaped me is puzzling. Studying your math approach let me see the light, and for that I thank you. And thank you also for taking the time to teach me. Walt PS--I note from your telephone numbers in your email to me that you are not located in the US. Also, the name Duffy sounds somewhat British. Are you in the UK? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- begin 666 p.gif M1TE&.#EA"@$M`,0#`````/___SE(MP`````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````````"'Y! $```,`+ `````*`2T```7_X"".9&F> M:*JN;.N^<"S/=&W?>*[O?.__P*!P2"P:C\BDTR!*81LABMK?">*B#6* M(HMWCHELD2:2`Y2598-J+YN,?9UU0)"7>3=Q?YBMJJ6+<&UZFF2THWRRD72W MM[5^L<&:F+;%<+^P>,JU?;G,SZ[#J+NSSLC7PYFKV*S LM^@U-.\X^6'?[VE MTNNLTK/JP*+EY(+KS^GFI^T@^1I%L-$E:^Q2F4O(,)L;> 3=]:,7 M\1?%9?^F-22FCI_$A14#0K14C1:A;?;R_RT,U?#4QY2%1F;42!.FI9H'':)Z MA[-@QSDKY>W\6=.7G9,W>8J$]2GHT'D/G\[T>+0B2%PZ7V[4N!0@T6@OO2;M M2/:FS(\NL[IPR7:J,I49CTE%-W/@KKL0E][;"5TG'%Q T$=[#D''";/T.>S$OQ-;OX]GX&"FWK$Y9G%,9& M`OM([=EW<-O&@EKWC$R^`0$/3KRX\>/(DRM?SKRY\^?0HTL/+J#Z``$BL&=/ MH9U[\-M1W0RG/;N[=>LKT*-0KP-\>+/CU5QV/_U$]^W76]RWWX,^V)!RQ%1? M#_N-8)Z!ZFE77?^!V+&WH('7*:+V)=IHVSC#&B#"!`*4+:4>9EDYI`<72 M6A0%XH?>@?FU:,**^.7W8(P%M@7?5&8]HU==\R&THUO<=/8/12BN!Z&+$*9( M8W8+*DA"DS5^%9$W1 +(5V]A"9@2:Q9.20V1*-GHD1-*LLC@A$\>R6":6J:% M8T\\:47,1:-M5%4G;O)CC9C^$5B"DRJ^&..?:@IZ9'AY!IFCE7)ZZ9J45%62 M)T9^E04%BRX"VB*F;&Y:Z*%1RA7IC6KEQ)";8E5(EEACBLHJ6DZ-^<2,$3:X MXJVV[O?@C+PZB"8TJ'5)V8::D;BA2:*>`V)J[UW82&.+@3;@;I9.VQPIE-AF HJ^VVW'8+)0UQ6BLN<:R-:^ZYZ*:K[KKLMNONN_#&*^^\]-9+1 @`.P`` ` end Article: 215056 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ken Taylor" References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:30:01 +1200 "Charlie" wrote in message news:11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com... > Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and > shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. > > Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all > but a very few "tower experts" predicted. > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > > Charlie, you may have noticed that the thread died once people realised you are out of town and not endangering anyone else. Good on you for putting up a tower out there, what the hell, eh? But the distortions aren't exactly helpful. More to the point, how's the DX'ing? I used to have to go to a nearby mountainside road to get any height like you have now. Cheers. Ken Article: 215057 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:05 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5lomlla9k19f@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> <11d5jfk6llsevec@news.supernews.com> <4uj5d111ebenscmhd8seur1qm9geantdmu@4ax.com> President Bush has authorized "Disaster Relief Funds" for 38 counties in Mississippi including my county of Newton. 1. http://www.wtok.com/home/headlines/1678647.html You cartographer skills as well as your meteorological powers of analysis leave a lot to be desired. Have a nice day.....sorry my tower did not collapse and that no one in my family was killed. Maybe next time..eh? -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Bob Miller" wrote in message news:4uj5d111ebenscmhd8seur1qm9geantdmu@4ax.com... > On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:52:11 -0500, "Charlie" > wrote: > >>Bob, >>The storm was not a pinpoint single line width across the map but over 3 0 >>0 >>m i l e s wide. I did not measure the "winds in Union". If they were not >>high enough for you then maybe better luck next time. > > According to the storm category indications on the map at > > http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200504.html > > "Hurricane Dennis" was actually a "tropical depression" before it ever > crossed into Mississippi, some distance north of Union. > > Charlie, I would never wish high winds upon anyone, but before you > brag about riding out a Category 4 Hurricane, you should be a little > more accurate in your terminology :-) > > Have a good one... > > bob > k5qwg > > > Article: 215058 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:33:24 +0100 Message-ID: <8bl5d1tr6kljs8htk99j4sej6t3ouoir0q@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Frank wrote: >I am not aware of a damper ever being considered a storage device. >Capacitance is equivalent to mass, Inductance is equivalent to a spring, and >resistance equivalent to a damper. Am I missing something? Nope. But the OP, now posting as 'Polymath', had said "The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" But the shock-absorber stores...nothing, and can return nothing. It therefore cannot have the mechanical equivalent of reactance, and cannot therefore be a part of a frequency-determining mechanism. He had failed to appreciate the property of mass - a rather fundamental point. That is why I said he was an idiot - a claim I see no reason to change. from Aero Spike Article: 215059 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Spike Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:35:26 +0100 Message-ID: <0ul5d118alf0jkvvccsqvj8v6nefjh5j06@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> Frank wrote: >Is this what you are talking about? > >"The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; >the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber >stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock >absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" > >I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. > Exactly! That was the point, repeatedly made by others, at the time of the original posting. from Aero Spike Article: 215060 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ddkek1b715f@corp.supernews.com> <8mg5d1l7jl9645i6nc1m0maj8ii1n4gvrb@4ax.com> <11d5il29agtucee@news.supernews.com> <11d5jfk6llsevec@news.supernews.com> <4uj5d111ebenscmhd8seur1qm9geantdmu@4ax.com> <11d5lomlla9k19f@news.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:39:45 GMT On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:31:05 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >President Bush has authorized "Disaster Relief Funds" for 38 counties in >Mississippi including my county of Newton. >1. http://www.wtok.com/home/headlines/1678647.html Yep, those tropical depressions can be rough -- let us know next time it rains in Union -- we'll want to see "before & after" pics of your tower. bob k5qwg > >You cartographer skills as well as your meteorological powers of analysis >leave a lot to be desired. > >Have a nice day.....sorry my tower did not collapse and that no one in my >family was killed. Maybe next time..eh? Article: 215061 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <99iAe.145698$on1.40186@clgrps13> <9j64d1hm1pe9dm84rm2t455fo784uo9r5g@4ax.com> <0ul5d118alf0jkvvccsqvj8v6nefjh5j06@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:42:16 GMT "Spike" wrote in message news:0ul5d118alf0jkvvccsqvj8v6nefjh5j06@4ax.com... > Frank wrote: > >>Is this what you are talking about? >> >>"The same analogy applies to springs and to shock absorbers; >>the spring stores energy when stretched; the shock-absorber >>stores energy when compressed. Both the spring and shock >>absorber will return energy at some time and this exhibit reactance!" >> >>I think we have been at cross purposes. The above is nonsense. >> > > Exactly! That was the point, repeatedly made by others, at the time of > the original posting. > > from > Aero Spike Which is exactly what you said in your original posting. The fact is I should have read it more carefully. Regards, Frank Article: 215062 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:44:23 -0500 Message-ID: <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> There are no distortions Ken. The tower looks the same the day before Dennis as it does now the day after. The WHOLE POINT in using 2 identical photos was to illustrate that there IS NO DIFFERENCE after the storm. I have been on Usenet for 20 years or more and it is always the same....people just wait in the wings to take pot shots at others. I posted a link to the tower photos and all I got was ridicule and cuss words. Now that it survived the affects of hurricane Dennis I get accusations that Dennis never even came near my home. You guys can all go fish..or any other "F" word you might be able to think of. Sorry to rob you all of the splendor of viewing my new tower down on the ground. You fuckers are all a bunch of real sick bastards. -- Charlie Ham Radio - AD5TH www.ad5th.com Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net www.deepsouthnet.net "Ken Taylor" wrote in message news:gFAAe.255$Qu4.23654@news.xtra.co.nz... > "Charlie" wrote in message > news:11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com... >> Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and >> shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. >> >> Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all >> but a very few "tower experts" predicted. >> >> -- >> >> Charlie >> Ham Radio - AD5TH >> www.ad5th.com >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >> www.deepsouthnet.net >> >> > Charlie, you may have noticed that the thread died once people realised > you are out of town and not endangering anyone else. Good on you for > putting up a tower out there, what the hell, eh? But the distortions > aren't exactly helpful. > > More to the point, how's the DX'ing? I used to have to go to a nearby > mountainside road to get any height like you have now. > > Cheers. > > Ken > > Article: 215063 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Big Ugly Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:18:27 GMT In article <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com>, "Charlie" wrote: > There are no distortions Ken. The tower looks the same the day before Dennis > as it does now the day after. The WHOLE POINT in using 2 identical photos > was to illustrate that there IS NO DIFFERENCE after the storm. > > I have been on Usenet for 20 years or more and it is always the > same....people just wait in the wings to take pot shots at others. I posted > a link to the tower photos and all I got was ridicule and cuss words. > > Now that it survived the affects of hurricane Dennis I get accusations that > Dennis never even came near my home. > You guys can all go fish..or any other "F" word you might be able to think > of. > > Sorry to rob you all of the splendor of viewing my new tower down on the > ground. > > You fuckers are all a bunch of real sick bastards. > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net If you make yourself a target you become one dummy. > > > > > > "Ken Taylor" wrote in message > news:gFAAe.255$Qu4.23654@news.xtra.co.nz... > > "Charlie" wrote in message > > news:11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com... > >> Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and > >> shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. > >> > >> Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all > >> but a very few "tower experts" predicted. > >> > >> -- > >> > >> Charlie > >> Ham Radio - AD5TH > >> www.ad5th.com > >> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > >> www.deepsouthnet.net > >> > >> > > Charlie, you may have noticed that the thread died once people realised > > you are out of town and not endangering anyone else. Good on you for > > putting up a tower out there, what the hell, eh? But the distortions > > aren't exactly helpful. > > > > More to the point, how's the DX'ing? I used to have to go to a nearby > > mountainside road to get any height like you have now. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Ken > > > > Article: 215064 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:19:52 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42d2e37a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Charlie wrote: > The WHOLE POINT in using 2 identical photos > was to illustrate that there IS NO DIFFERENCE after the storm. I'll bet CSI could find a difference. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215065 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: <03q5d15rnavfqlt0khgqqgg3q182ljit3c@4ax.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:52:41 GMT On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:44:23 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >There are no distortions Ken. The tower looks the same the day before Dennis >as it does now the day after. The WHOLE POINT in using 2 identical photos >was to illustrate that there IS NO DIFFERENCE after the storm. > Charlie, the assessment that the "tower looks the same the day before Dennis as it does now the day after" is your own assessment, then to convince others, you misrepresent a "before" photograph as an "after" photograph as evidence to support your assessment. The photograph is not honest, it portrays what is in your mind rather than what is on the ground, and IMHO is only evidence of what is in your mind. Might have been a nice point if you did take an after photograph. As to the extent that you experienced Hurricane Dennis, I will leave that to you guys to work out. Owen -- Article: 215066 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ken Taylor" References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:54:19 +1200 Just posting a real 'after' shot would have shut people up (well, most, as you say). Anyway, still glad it didn't come down. My only beef was ever the neighbours - since they aren't in sight (and I notice you don't seem to have your house near it either) I say go for it. Cheers. Ken "Charlie" wrote in message news:11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com... > There are no distortions Ken. The tower looks the same the day before > Dennis as it does now the day after. The WHOLE POINT in using 2 identical > photos was to illustrate that there IS NO DIFFERENCE after the storm. > > I have been on Usenet for 20 years or more and it is always the > same....people just wait in the wings to take pot shots at others. I > posted a link to the tower photos and all I got was ridicule and cuss > words. > > Now that it survived the affects of hurricane Dennis I get accusations > that Dennis never even came near my home. > You guys can all go fish..or any other "F" word you might be able to think > of. > > Sorry to rob you all of the splendor of viewing my new tower down on the > ground. > > You fuckers are all a bunch of real sick bastards. > > -- > > Charlie > Ham Radio - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net > www.deepsouthnet.net > > > > > > "Ken Taylor" wrote in message > news:gFAAe.255$Qu4.23654@news.xtra.co.nz... >> "Charlie" wrote in message >> news:11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com... >>> Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and >>> shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. >>> >>> Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all >>> but a very few "tower experts" predicted. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Charlie >>> Ham Radio - AD5TH >>> www.ad5th.com >>> Deep South 2 Meter SSB Net >>> www.deepsouthnet.net >>> >>> >> Charlie, you may have noticed that the thread died once people realised >> you are out of town and not endangering anyone else. Good on you for >> putting up a tower out there, what the hell, eh? But the distortions >> aren't exactly helpful. >> >> More to the point, how's the DX'ing? I used to have to go to a nearby >> mountainside road to get any height like you have now. >> >> Cheers. >> >> Ken >> >> > > Article: 215067 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> Message-ID: <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:07:59 GMT Beanie's Bum Chum How many bags do you get through in a month? > What's your problem? Frustrated now Beanie's got a job during the week? Never mind, I don't suppose it will last long. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 215068 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Can you solve this 2? Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:13:31 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c695c0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c7f8f6.3567850@news.crosslink.net> <42c832be$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Who said powers can never be added? Must have been someone who was unfamiliar with the expression 'figures can lie and liars can figure'. :-) ac6xg Article: 215069 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar > Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:21:44 +0100 Message-ID: <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:07:59 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI [ pass another bag ] wrote: >What's your problem? Frustrated now Beanie's got a job during the week? >Never mind, I don't suppose it will last long. What's your problem? Run out of bags? Article: 215070 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:36:32 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin References: Message-ID: <42d2f470$0$32195$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Bob Nielsen wrote: > Has anyone been able to get Eznec to run in Win4Lin (an emulator for > running Windows as a Linux application)? I get the startup screen, but > then an error window pops up saying EZWf14.DLL is missing. It is in the > C:\Program Files/ezw directory (although Windows Explorer does not show it > either). It works fine running Windows 98SE natively. > > Bob, N7XY Hi Bob, I've been running Win4Lin for years, since the original alpha pre-1 days, and never had anything, well anything normal, that didn't work, including RadioMobile. And Roy's program seems to be pretty normal in how it talks to the OS. Which version of Win4Lin? The new one that does XP? Did the install look clean? No hiccups during it? If there was anything at all suspicious, get in touch with Win4Lin support, they are quite good at following up. tom K0TAR Article: 215071 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:42:36 GMT Beanie's Bum Chum On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:07:59 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI > [ pass another bag ] wrote: > > > >>What's your problem? Frustrated now Beanie's got a job during the week? >>Never mind, I don't suppose it will last long. > > > > What's your problem? Run out of bags? No, I've got plenty. Do you want some? -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 215072 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:47:37 -0400 Message-ID: References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:49:26 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >In all honesty to those that ridiculed the tower and it's associated >riggings etc...I have posted photos of the damage incurred from the category >4 hurricane Dennis. I never expected this kind of result...live and learn I >suppose. Here is the direct link.. > >1. http://deepsouthnet.net/storm_damage.html Just because the antenna wasn't damaged in this storm doesn't mean it its installation is safe. So it withstood a storm whose biggest claim to fame around her is flood damage. Will the antenna stand the test of time? Good luck Plonk! -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 215073 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:04:19 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: T-wave technology Message-ID: <42d30904$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> This group has vast experience, so I was wondering what any of you have worked on, or just plain know about, the so called T-wave range of frequencies. Which would be roughly 100GHz to 10THz. And if you have worked on it, what can you tell us about it? It seems to have some interesting potential, similar to XRay in some ways, but also sensitive to chemical properties. tom K0TAR Article: 215074 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Nielsen Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:31:35 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42d2f470$0$32195$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:36:32 -0500, Tom Ring wrote: > Bob Nielsen wrote: > >> Has anyone been able to get Eznec to run in Win4Lin (an emulator for >> running Windows as a Linux application)? I get the startup screen, but >> then an error window pops up saying EZWf14.DLL is missing. It is in the >> C:\Program Files/ezw directory (although Windows Explorer does not show it >> either). It works fine running Windows 98SE natively. >> >> Bob, N7XY > > Hi Bob, > > I've been running Win4Lin for years, since the original alpha pre-1 > days, and never had anything, well anything normal, that didn't work, > including RadioMobile. And Roy's program seems to be pretty normal in > how it talks to the OS. > > Which version of Win4Lin? The new one that does XP? > > Did the install look clean? No hiccups during it? > > If there was anything at all suspicious, get in touch with Win4Lin > support, they are quite good at following up. > > tom > K0TAR I tried the demo (successfuly) and am pretty sure the problem is that I can't find my original EZW version 3 to version 4+ upgrade file and copying the c:\Program Files\EZW directory from my Win 98SE partition (which I want to delete eventually) either didn't give me all the files I needed or the registry won't recognize something. I'll try installing version 3 (I still have the CD for that), which is less capable, but better than the demo. Bob N7XY Article: 215075 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:43:03 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin References: <42d2f470$0$32195$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <42d31217$0$22196$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Bob Nielsen wrote: > I tried the demo (successfuly) and am pretty sure the problem is that I > can't find my original EZW version 3 to version 4+ upgrade file and > copying the c:\Program Files\EZW directory from my Win 98SE partition > (which I want to delete eventually) either didn't give me all the files I > needed or the registry won't recognize something. I'll try installing > version 3 (I still have the CD for that), which is less capable, but > better than the demo. > > Bob N7XY Sounds like the way to go. I'll bet Roy's response is in the pipeline already. tom K0TAR Article: 215076 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Peter LaGrange Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> <11d5mhnlemj3e6f@news.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 20:46:56 -0400 Charlie wrote: > I have been on Usenet for 20 years or more and it is always the > same....people just wait in the wings to take pot shots at others. I posted > a link to the tower photos and all I got was ridicule and cuss words. You'd think your twenty years of Usenet experience would not have failed you like this. > Sorry to rob you all of the splendor of viewing my new tower down on the > ground. > > You fuckers are all a bunch of real sick bastards. > No one wants your tower to fall down, nor harm to you or your family. But you basically posted troll fodder and then have the audacity to whine when it's not the attention you so wanted. If you don't like the heat, don't post stupid things on Usenet. Article: 215077 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: AD5TH Tower - Storm Damage Photos Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:48:42 -0500 Message-ID: <11d64re1jpbnod1@corp.supernews.com> References: <11d5c9ls4rt5p7c@news.supernews.com> <11d5ihah26vq99f@news.supernews.com> Charlie wrote: > Because the images are virtually the same..even if I stepped outside and > shot a "true after" picture it would be the same image. > > Sorry to disappoint all you guys but there was no damage here.....as all but > a very few "tower experts" predicted. > If they are two different pictures why do they have the same file name? Dave N Article: 215078 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Eznec running under Linux/Win4Lin Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:41:04 -0700 Message-ID: <11d67tn25140s40@corp.supernews.com> References: <42d2f470$0$32195$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Bob Nielsen wrote: > > I tried the demo (successfuly) and am pretty sure the problem is that I > can't find my original EZW version 3 to version 4+ upgrade file and > copying the c:\Program Files\EZW directory from my Win 98SE partition > (which I want to delete eventually) either didn't give me all the files I > needed or the registry won't recognize something. I'll try installing > version 3 (I still have the CD for that), which is less capable, but > better than the demo. > > Bob N7XY I encourage people having any problem with EZNEC to email me. But I think this is of general interest to all users of Windows programs as well as EZNEC, so I'll continue posting here for a short while. It is drifting away from anything to do with antennas, though, so it should be taken to email if it's not resolved very soon. Like many Windows programs, EZNEC requires files and Registry entries which which are installed with the installation program but not in the EZNEC program directory. So it won't function properly or at all if you just copy the program directory from another computer or operating system. (The demo program is a little more tolerant this way and you might get away with it, depending on what you already have installed on your machine. But don't count on it.) The only way to produce a functioning full-version program is to install it on the target system using the installation program. This also holds true for many other Windows programs. Sorry, Toto, we're not in DOS any more. Anyone who purchases an upgrade doesn't get an "upgrade file". You get the complete newer version of the program which doesn't require the old version to install or run. An upgrade just gets you a special price, not a different program. Email me if you need to make arrangements to download the program again. For those of you who have EZNEC or might purchase it in the future -- if you aren't able or willing to back up the downloaded file, spend the extra $10 for the CD. I heartily recommend this for all programs, not just EZNEC. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 215079 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1121131492.486515.29440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Dipole vs Antron Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3682c$42d3250a$97d55c31$11652@ALLTEL.NET> Depends on what the other guy has. "Blue Dawg" wrote in message news:1121131492.486515.29440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Which will out perform the other in local - line of sight - use? > Article: 215080 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Walter Maxwell" References: Subject: Re: [help] eznec\4 pro Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:04:55 -0400 "zzl" wrote in message news:daqqsi$qpl$1@news.yaako.com... > I can not find it. Talk about threads that run off the track!!! Walt, W2DU ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- begin 666 p.gif M1TE&.#EA"@$M`,0#`````/___SE(MP`````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````````````"'Y! $```,`+ `````*`2T```7_X"".9&F> M:*JN;.N^<"S/=&W?>*[O?.__P*!P2"P:C\BDTR!*81LABMK?">*B#6* M(HMWCHELD2:2`Y2598-J+YN,?9UU0)"7>3=Q?YBMJJ6+<&UZFF2THWRRD72W MM[5^L<&:F+;%<+^P>,JU?;G,SZ[#J+NSSLC7PYFKV*S LM^@U-.\X^6'?[VE MTNNLTK/JP*+EY(+KS^GFI^T@^1I%L-$E:^Q2F4O(,)L;> 3=]:,7 M\1?%9?^F-22FCI_$A14#0K14C1:A;?;R_RT,U?#4QY2%1F;42!.FI9H'':)Z MA[-@QSDKY>W\6=.7G9,W>8J$]2GHT'D/G\[T>+0B2%PZ7V[4N!0@T6@OO2;M M2/:FS(\NL[IPR7:J,I49CTE%-W/@KKL0E][;"5TG'%Q T$=[#D''";/T.>S$OQ-;OX]GX&"FWK$Y9G%,9& M`OM([=EW<-O&@EKWC$R^`0$/3KRX\>/(DRM?SKRY\^?0HTL/+J#Z``$BL&=/ MH9U[\-M1W0RG/;N[=>LKT*-0KP-\>+/CU5QV/_U$]^W76]RWWX,^V)!RQ%1? M#_N-8)Z!ZFE77?^!V+&WH('7*:+V)=IHVSC#&B#"!`*4+:4>9EDYI`<72 M6A0%XH?>@?FU:,**^.7W8(P%M@7?5&8]HU==\R&THUO<=/8/12BN!Z&+$*9( M8W8+*DA"DS5^%9$W1 +(5V]A"9@2:Q9.20V1*-GHD1-*LLC@A$\>R6":6J:% M8T\\:47,1:-M5%4G;O)CC9C^$5B"DRJ^&..?:@IZ9'AY!IFCE7)ZZ9J45%62 M)T9^E04%BRX"VB*F;&Y:Z*%1RA7IC6KEQ)";8E5(EEACBLHJ6DZ-^<2,$3:X MXJVV[O?@C+PZB"8TJ'5)V8::D;BA2:*>`V)J[UW82&.+@3;@;I9.VQPIE-AF HJ^VVW'8+)0UQ6BLN<:R-:^ZYZ*:K[KKLMNONN_#&*^^\]-9+1 @`.P`` ` end Article: 215081 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <1121131492.486515.29440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Dipole vs Antron Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:23:58 -0400 They're both half-have antennas, so the mounting height, polarity, orientation relative to each other and what the 'other folk' have will have a bearing. but for line-of-sight - just holler at 'em. but its hard to beat the ol' a-99 if you have it sticking out the top of a tall pine tree. even better if you hook your radio to it "Blue Dawg" wrote in message news:1121131492.486515.29440@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Which will out perform the other in local - line of sight - use? > Article: 215082 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Subject: Re: Butternut HF6V need guys? Message-ID: <4qc6d19ns3d68k3h2gklo6otufme12630j@4ax.com> References: <313030303837383542D1425325@zetnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 03:27:03 GMT My antenna and ground mount came to me a used equipment/ The mounting post that came along is fantastically designed. Let me try to describe it to you: Galvanized steel water pipe four feet in lenght with a nominal Inner diameter of about 1 inch. One end has a taper point ( very much like a sand point well point) wellded to it.. The opposite end ( side that vertical and atenna insulater is dropped into) has 3 in by 3 inch " ears welded parrallel to the length of the pipe, 5 inches from the end and 180 aprt from each other. The welded steel ears are about 3/16 of an in thick. Each ear has a 3/8 inch hole drilled through them about 3/4 of an inch from the top of the ear. This permits hooking 1/4 or 5/16 proof coil chain as a point to remove pole using a convienent fulcrum or jack. I use a 10 pound mall to drive the pole into medium hard ground. I strike the ears, not the pole. When you get to ground level with the ears continue to drive the ears to the bolt holes. This pole will never rotate. It is almost easier to fabricate this than it is to describe it. Completely removable and reusable mount. Two 3/16 holes are drilled through the fiberglass insulator and through the mount where I have number 10 -24 stainless hardware. Ron On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 15:44:19 +0100, Dave Piggin wrote: > > >> I do plan to add a fair number of guys, and will be installing them just as >> you have suggested. I do have a question about driving the 1 1/8" mounting >> tube into the earth. The directions give a warning about splitting the >> plastic insert and suggest placing a piece of wood on top of the tube and >> then hammer on the wood. The soil here is clay, and the ground is >> quite dry, >> at the present time. Do you, or anyone else, have any suggestions about >> driving the tube into the ground. Should I drive a wooden stake first to >> form a hole, remove the stake, and then drive the tube into the hole >> left by >> the stake? > >Post Hole/fencing Borer comes to mind or depending on your current soil >condition you could use a hose pipe with a tube inserted in the tip and >bore a hole that way, albeit fairly high pressure is needed, but that >could be achieved with a pressure washer. As you start off your bound to >be soaked a bit, but as you [bore deeper] push/ pull the nozzle out of >the hole so that excess soil/clay can be removed by the water, bore down >to your required depth, insert pole and back fill with sand or tamp down >soil sides. This is also one way to ensure you can get a decent enough >hole, deep enough to insert a earth stake. Your idea of utilising a hole >by driving in a stake would no doubt give you problems extracting it >back out again as I assume that you would be requiring a depth of about >900mm? Dave d:-) Article: 215083 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mike Speed" Subject: Gap antennas, elevated radials Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:41:13 -0600 Message-ID: What do you guys think of the Gap Antennas - they have the Titan, etc. How many of you have had experience with elevated radials? Four elevated radials at the correct length and height are supposed perform as well as many ground mounted radials. Article: 215084 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ed Laughery" Subject: OCF dipole ?? Not quite enough space to hang!! Message-ID: <06HAe.59657$ho.10121@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:51:45 -0500 Hi I have a 260 OCF dipole that I wouldl like to hang but the largest span between trees is about 220 ft. at about 60 ft high on one end and 80 ft on the other. 1. How will the antenna performance be affected if I let the ends just drop staright down? 2. The long side is 166 ft, short side 94 ft. - if letting the ends drop down is OK, would it make a difference to put the vertical amount on one side. If so, would it be best to let the extra drop vertically on the long side? short side? or best to even up the extra on both ends? Thanks in advance. 73 Ed AD5JV Article: 215085 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 'Doc Subject: Re: OCF dipole ?? Not quite enough space to hang!! References: <06HAe.59657$ho.10121@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 05:21:28 GMT Ed, Hang it and let both ends dangle 20 feet or so. Will it make a difference? Sure, some, but 'how' is sort of debatable, and probably not worth worrying about. 'Doc Article: 215086 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar > Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 10:52:39 +0100 Message-ID: References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:42:36 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI wrote: >> What's your problem? Run out of bags? >No, I've got plenty. Do you want some? No, your need is greater than mine. Article: 215087 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mike Speed" Subject: Re: Gap antennas, elevated radials Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:51:28 -0600 Message-ID: References: <1121143888.873785.285320@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> > What do you guys think of the Gap Antennas - they have the Titan, etc. > > I like the designs of the butternuts better in general... > > How many of you have had experience with > elevated radials? > > I'm one.... > > Four elevated radials at the correct length and > height are supposed perform as well as many ground mounted radials. > > Yes, at the correct height above the ground in terms of *wavelength*. > I would not expect super results with 4 radials, below about 1/4 wave > above the ground. And that 1/4 wave above ground will be a different > height for each band. A 1/2 wave up would be better, but may be > impractical on the low bands. I used 4 radials on a 40m ground plane, > at 36 ft at the base. Just a bit over a 1/4 wave up. Worked quite well, > and > was equal to appx 60 radials on the ground. But drop down to 1/8 wave, > and you will need *many* more than 4 radials for the same amount > of ground loss. At 1/2 wave up, 4 radials are appx equal to 100-120 > on the ground. Real low "IE: 5-10 ft high" elevated radials are just > barely > better than having them on the ground on the lower bands. Even > 20 ft up, will be pretty lackluster, unless you have a lot of them, or > are using a > high frequency. 20 ft is higher than a 1/2 wave on 10m. .. > I found 1/4 wave up to be the lowest height for really *good* results > when > using only 4 radials. Any lower, and it drops to *mediocre* > performance... > MK > Thanks for the answer - good empirical information about elevated radials. I forget, though: how *long* do the elevated radials have to be in terms of wavelength? For example: what would you recommend for a 1/4 wave high 80m vertical? Article: 215088 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 07:51:30 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: OCF dipole ?? Not quite enough space to hang!! References: <06HAe.59657$ho.10121@bignews6.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <42d3bdd7$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Ed Laughery wrote: > I have a 260 OCF dipole that I wouldl like to hang but the largest span > between trees is about 220 ft. at about 60 ft high on one end and 80 ft on > the other. Idea: If you are not using it on 160m, make it 130 ft instead of 260 ft. > 1. How will the antenna performance be affected if I let the ends just drop > staright down? You won't notice much difference on the lower bands. Since the drooping ends will be an appreciable percentage of a wavelength on the higher bands, you may notice some additional directivity. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215089 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:25:22 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Can you solve this 2? References: <42c695c0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c7f8f6.3567850@news.crosslink.net> <42c832be$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42d3c5c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Who said powers can never be added? > > Must have been someone who was unfamiliar with the expression 'figures > can lie and liars can figure'. :-) You reckon Eugene Hecht was lying when he shows us how to add two irradiances to obtain the total irradiance (power per unit-area) in _Optics_? Adding EM wave powers during interference is a well accepted way of handling EM wave superposition in the field of optics. The bright constructive interference rings contain more power than the dark destructive interference rings. RF waves and light waves are both electro- magnetic waves, just at different frequencies. Asserting that RF waves obey a different set of laws of physics than do light waves is naive ignorance at best. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215090 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 08:30:34 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> <42d2b1e3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42d3c6fd$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Cecil Moore" said, >>And, for the record, it wasn't me who said that. > > As it was quite true you just as well could have said it. So I didn't > take the trouble to correct the minor error. Reg, IMO, only a naive person would ever use the words, "absolutely sure". :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215091 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <42D3CB28.737111D6@geoff.spamless.com> From: Geoff Subject: Re: 6 Meter Antenna References: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 13:52:41 GMT check http://www.cebik.com/moxon/6m.html make it for under $ 5.00 plus direct fed with coax ! geoff Article: 215092 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <42d0e73b$2_1@x-privat.org> <42d1625e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9g13d1l6ktfm3vstb5p5e93ptl6k77m228@4ax.com> <2OkFDdCGOj0CFwl3@secornwall.com> <42d2b05b_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 11:34:08 -0500 Message-ID: <42d3f161_4@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Reg Edwards" > And as usual, when the slightest difference of opinion occurs, > somebody invariably feels impelled to go off at a tangent and drag in > something they feel more at home with, such as VHF and UHF TV > transmitting antennas, and, very soon, if we are not careful, _________ Admit it, Reg. You are just ready to pounce on me after I revealed the error of your belief that George Brown made a mistake by not measuring ground conductivity in the work for his landmark 1937 IRE paper (that you hadn't read) about ground systems for MW verticals. Don't pout. RF Article: 215093 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:35:52 GMT Beanie's bum chum On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:42:36 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI > wrote: > > > >>>What's your problem? Run out of bags? >> >>No, I've got plenty. Do you want some? > > > No, your need is greater than mine. I'm not so sure, you must need a massive spew bag after a session with Beanie. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 215094 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "pegge" Subject: zip cord feeding a g5rv antenna Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:44:33 GMT someone tried to feed a type g5rv antenna with ŽeuropeanŽ zip-cord ? (european meaning double the Volts compared to USA, thus half amps for the same lamp wattage) Would yield a simple ant, peel the first say abt 15- 17 meters, splitting them up to the dipole part and the the rest X meter to a balanced tuner etc. sorry if this has been up too many times, search didŽnt give a clue! Tnx for info, 73 Per / sm7aha malmo, sweden Article: 215095 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: Subject: Re: zip cord feeding a g5rv antenna Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:05:23 GMT "pegge" wrote in message news:RYVAe.29028$d5.182116@newsb.telia.net... > someone tried to feed a type g5rv antenna with ŽeuropeanŽ zip-cord ? > (european meaning double the Volts compared to USA, thus half amps > for the same lamp wattage) > Would yield a simple ant, peel the first say abt 15- 17 meters, splitting > them up to the dipole part and the the rest X meter to a balanced tuner > etc. > sorry if this has been up too many times, search didŽnt give a clue! > > Tnx for info, 73 Per / sm7aha malmo, sweden Check out the following analysis: http://www.vk1od.net/G5RV/index.htm Frank Article: 215096 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar > Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:43:17 +0100 Message-ID: <19e8d1li6om66g2le6oetv8avb11usp37u@4ax.com> References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:35:52 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI [ pass the bag ] wrote: >I'm not so sure, you must need a massive spew bag after a session with >Beanie. Even that would pale into insignificance compared to your need. Article: 215097 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Can you solve this 2? Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:56:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42c695c0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c7f8f6.3567850@news.crosslink.net> <42c832be$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42d3c5c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> Who said powers can never be added? >> >> >> Must have been someone who was unfamiliar with the expression 'figures >> can lie and liars can figure'. :-) > > > You reckon Eugene Hecht was lying when he shows us how to > add two irradiances to obtain the total irradiance (power > per unit-area) in _Optics_? Eugene Hecht doesn't have a dog in this fight, Cecil. But the quote is a truism that applies in any case. Wrong numbers added correctly produce a wrong number; correct numbers added incorrectly produce an incorrect number; and in the special case, certain wrong numbers added in a particular incorrect way can produce a desired result. You take too great a liberty with the name Eugene Hecht. Among the things which won't be found in any of Dr. Hecht's texts is a minus sign in front of number expressing an irradiance. Nor will we find a negative scalar quantity accompanied by the claim that the negative sign indicates a change in direction, as you have done. Eugene Hecht also did not claim that interference could be a cause for energy to reflect or otherwise change direction, as you have done. Such claims are blatently false. Power and irradiance are derived and dependent quantities, not fundamental independent quantities in nature. And although an automobile moves at some speed, the scaler quantity itself is not something which moves. Similarly, power and irradiance do not physically propagate and they do not physically interact. 'They' do not reflect, refract, diffract, disperse, interfere, or act upon other 'powers' or 'irradiances'. JC Maxwell and others observed that it is electric and magnetic fields which propagate, interact with matter, and add algebraically and vectorially. When fields physically interact with matter, we can measure their effect and can quantify such things as voltage, current, and heat, and hence calculate such things as power or irradiance. But it is actually the fields themselves which algebraically sum. Of course the interference equation accurately expresses power and irradiance. The fact that power and irradiance generally go as the square of the fields allows us to correctly make certain additional mathematical assumptions. One must still be careful not to mistake an effect for a cause. But it is the 2nd Amendment, the internet, and the absence of peer review which afford men the freedom and means to work equations and describe physical phenomena in any way they like. 73, ac6xg Article: 215098 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42cf4d37_3@x-privat.org> <42cf5a7c$1_2@x-privat.org> <4873d1lhsk6hma9on1pfuvr5d6gae927t2@4ax.com> <4le4d1pn0mnp42553fkftehhk8flglk6as@4ax.com> <35CAe.8796$184.2063@newsfe2-win.ntli.net> <75s5d1pubap3gfufv3o5k1ei55v3thnbil@4ax.com> <19e8d1li6om66g2le6oetv8avb11usp37u@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:50:15 GMT Beanie's Bum Chum On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 18:35:52 GMT, Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI > [ pass the bag ] wrote: > > > >>I'm not so sure, you must need a massive spew bag after a session with >>Beanie. > > > > Even that would pale into insignificance compared to your need. I'm OK thanks, I just turn the lights off, you must need a gas mask. -- ;-) 73 de Frank Turner-Smith G3VKI - mine's a pint. http://turner-smith.co.uk Article: 215099 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hasan schiers" Subject: Re: 6 Meter Antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:09:03 -0500 Message-ID: References: A commercial version of this antenna (6m moxon) is available. I put one up last year and am VERY pleased with it. You can find it in the AES catalog (Amateur Electronic Supply). I forget who offers it, but it is something like 79 bucks, if you have neither the time nor the inclination to build one. ...hasan, N0AN "CWB" wrote in message news:wSjAe.135795$PR6.68852@tornado.texas.rr.com... > > "Caveat Lector" wrote in message > news:zXhwe.1038$HV1.545@fed1read07... >> Might try giving us operating parameters. >> >> Are u going to operate repeaters only or skip or both? >> For repeaters and mobiles, you'll want vertical polarization. (Cross >> polarization can be 12dB or more) > > 20+db...not 12! 20db=100:1 power ratio.... > >> For skip, either vertical or horizontal will do. > > Sometimes....depends on the conditions > >> I can't put up a Yagi, so I use a Cushcraft AR-6 Ringo, 1/2 wave vertical >> Your results may vary. > > Nowadays, a PAR or KB6KQ is best.....when the band is not open, you want > to use horizontal pol for best "local" coverage...out to 200+ miles or so > > Article: 215100 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: Subject: Re: zip cord feeding a g5rv antenna Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:06:58 -0400 I had thought about it because I had a 500 ft roll on hand at the time - but changed my mind because research showed zip cord to be high-loss "pegge" wrote in message news:RYVAe.29028$d5.182116@newsb.telia.net... > someone tried to feed a type g5rv antenna with ŽeuropeanŽ zip-cord ? > (european meaning double the Volts compared to USA, thus half amps > for the same lamp wattage) > Would yield a simple ant, peel the first say abt 15- 17 meters, splitting > them up to the dipole part and the the rest X meter to a balanced tuner etc. > sorry if this has been up too many times, search didŽnt give a clue! > > Tnx for info, 73 Per / sm7aha malmo, sweden > > Article: 215101 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 22:48:00 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Can you solve this 2? References: <42c695c0$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42c7f8f6.3567850@news.crosslink.net> <42c832be$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42d3c5c5$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42d48ff5$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: Jim, you have a habit of erecting strawmen somewhat like: "I don't care what you say, the sun will rise tomorrow." For that reason, I'm going to trim the parts of your posting with which I agree and have never disagreed. > You take too great a liberty with the name Eugene Hecht. Among the > things which won't be found in any of Dr. Hecht's texts is a minus sign > in front of number expressing an irradiance. Sure wish you would read the book before making such statements. On the contrary, here's equation (9.16) representing total destructive interference. Imin = I1 + I2 - 2*SQRT(I1*I2) = 0 The third term is indeed a minus sign in front of a number expressing irradiance. However, total average irradiance cannot be less than zero. And for the record, I have never said total average power could be less than zero but, like Hecht, I treat destructive interference energy as a negative term and constructive interference energy as a positive term. Dr. Stephen Best, VE9SRB, did the same thing for his "Wave Mechanics of Transmission Lines, Part 3:" QEX article, Nov/Dec 2001. He said: "When the voltages V1 and V2 are exactly 180 deg out of phase, the total power can be determined as follows:" "PFtotal = P1 + P2 - 2*SQRT(P1)*SQRT(P2)" so if you don't like negative power terms, you should confront both Eugene Hecht and Dr. Best. > Nor will we find a > negative scalar quantity accompanied by the claim that the negative sign > indicates a change in direction, as you have done. On the contrary, in equation 9.16 above, according to Hecht, the interference term is negative indicating "total destructive interference", his words, not mine. Here's Hecht's quote from _Optics_. “The principle of conservation of energy makes it clear that if there is constructive interference at one point, the ‘extra’ energy at that location must have come from somewhere else. There must therefore be destructive interference somewhere else." Sorry, but a negative interference term denotes destructive interference. A positive interference term denotes constructive interference. In a transmission line with only two directions, if destructive interference occurs in one direction, then constructive interference must occur in the only other direction in order to satisfy the conservation of energy principle. A wave cancellation event in a transmission line implies an equal constructive interference event in the opposite direction. Anything else violates the laws of physics. > Similarly, power and irradiance do not > physically propagate and they do not physically interact. On the contrary, they do physically interact for coherent waves as can be inferred by the interference equations. Please reference Chapter 9 in _Optics_, by Hecht. The mathematical interaction of power and irradiance is a *result* of superposition of coherent EM waves. That's where the interference equations involving irradiance come from. > JC Maxwell and others observed that it is > electric and magnetic fields which propagate, interact with matter, and > add algebraically and vectorially. And contain power equal to ExH. EM waves cannot exist without energy. If EM waves interact, their energy components interact. Destructive and constructive interference cannot occur without energy components which follow the laws of physics. > Of course the interference equation accurately expresses power and > irradiance. That is some progress on your part so there's hope. What you need to realize is that those interference equations define what happens to the energy at a match point in a transmission line. Dr. Best kicked this discussion off by his QEX article. He just didn't realize that the equations he published were virtually identical to the classical optical interference equations. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215102 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: zip cord feeding a g5rv antenna Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 23:34:20 -0500 Message-ID: <11d96eg2e6r9h5a@corp.supernews.com> References: Hal Rosser wrote: > I had thought about it because I had a 500 ft roll on hand at the time - but > changed my mind because research showed zip cord to be high-loss > > "pegge" wrote in message > news:RYVAe.29028$d5.182116@newsb.telia.net... > >>someone tried to feed a type g5rv antenna with ŽeuropeanŽ zip-cord ? >>(european meaning double the Volts compared to USA, thus half amps >>for the same lamp wattage) >>Would yield a simple ant, peel the first say abt 15- 17 meters, splitting >>them up to the dipole part and the the rest X meter to a balanced tuner > > etc. > >>sorry if this has been up too many times, search didŽnt give a clue! >> >>Tnx for info, 73 Per / sm7aha malmo, sweden >> >> > > > Go for it. I've seen a dipole fed by electric blasting wire. Worked fine. Dave N WD9BDZ