Article: 215923 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Pi network question Message-ID: <23bre1h0dr7fgq0jdfu4m35k695hcs82vf@4ax.com> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 05:08:08 GMT On 31 Jul 2005 21:01:19 -0700, "pdrunen@aol.com" wrote: >Hi Group, > >I have a pi-network, or at least I believe it is a pi-network in my >antenna tuner. It has two caps to ground and one in series inductor. > >If I tune my SWR for 1:1 and go back and measure each value of the >capacitors and inductor, is there a equation or computer program I can >use these measured values to obtain my complex impedance at the input >of the coax cable? You ought to be able to do it from first principles, the computation is not that difficult. Some of the issues include your estimate of the value of the capacitors, the value of inductance, and the Q of the inductor. You could try to form a value for those by substitution of some known capacitors and "matching up" a known load, working back to estimate C, L, then use those values to solve the unknown case. The accumulated error might render the answer of little value. One program that springs to mind that solves a pi network is in the Hamcalc suite, but IIRC, it treats all components as ideal (ie lossless). Reg Edwards has another that you could play with, and IIRC, it does allow you to specify unloaded Q of the inductor. Have a play, you have nothing to lose and everything to learn! Owen -- Article: 215924 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Short dipole - inductor question From: Ed References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 05:31:56 GMT Just a followup on my original post under this subject. I completed my short 75M dipole (Inverted V) and am very pleased with it. Went to the hardware store, bought a piece of cheap bathroom plumbing material, 1.5" diameter and very light. (Lighter than PVC) Bought some #18 stranded hookup wire. Found an old spool of Telephone indoor station wire (#22). I wound my 1.5" dia coils with the telephone station wire. Worked very well. I wanted a 50 uH coil so as it turned out, 50 turns, close spaced, did the job. (about 25 turns per inch). I positioned the coils about 6/10 of the distance down my dipole legs; the total length of each leg came out to 24 feet. The feedpoint is at the top of my 23 foot cheap telescopic RV flag pole. This antenna tuned right up to freq... 3950KHz in my case. SWR was about 1.6. Seems usable between 3900 and 4000. If I want to go lower, I just hang a couple alligator clips with 6" wire off the ends to lower resonance. Project was easy, and whole thing is light, small, easy to erect, and works well, considering size. Works well with my FT-817. Thanks to those who made replies to my post. Ed K7AAT Article: 215925 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W9DMK (Robert Lay) Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 08:32:43 GMT Message-ID: <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 31 Jul 2005 21:01:19 -0700, "pdrunen@aol.com" wrote: >Hi Group, > >I have a pi-network, or at least I believe it is a pi-network in my >antenna tuner. It has two caps to ground and one in series inductor. > >If I tune my SWR for 1:1 and go back and measure each value of the >capacitors and inductor, is there a equation or computer program I can >use these measured values to obtain my complex impedance at the input >of the coax cable? > >de KJ4UO > I would caution you in regard to measuring the values of the C's and the L of your pi network. If you actually have an RF bridge or other test equipment suitable for accurately making such measurements, you are indeed lucky. Even with such equipment, you should realize that you will have to disconnect certain components from one another in the tuner in order to actually make the measurements on each of the three components. You are also probably going to have to remove some of those components entirely in order to make the measurements with reasonably short leads. For anything below 10 MHz, the lead length will not be a significant factor. Assuming that you are successful in making the measurements with good accuracy, the necessary calculations require a good knowledge of complex numbers and complex arithmetic - much of which is adequately explained in the Amateur Radio Handbook. My suggestion at that point would be to simply post your results, including the frequency of measurement, to this forum and request that one of us make the calculations for you. I'm sure many, including myself, would be glad to do that for you. It's the quickest way, by far. Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail w9dmkcrosslinknet http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html Article: 215927 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: chuck Subject: Re: Pi network question References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:21:59 GMT If he has an RF bridge, couldn't he simply terminate the tuner's input with 50 ohms resistive and measure the impedance at the tuner's output? Well, the conjugate, anyway. I'm trying to imagine the benefit of doing it that way, rather than simply measuring the impedance at the transmission line directly. Chuck, NT3G W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote: > On 31 Jul 2005 21:01:19 -0700, "pdrunen@aol.com" > wrote: > > >>Hi Group, >> >>I have a pi-network, or at least I believe it is a pi-network in my >>antenna tuner. It has two caps to ground and one in series inductor. >> >>If I tune my SWR for 1:1 and go back and measure each value of the >>capacitors and inductor, is there a equation or computer program I can >>use these measured values to obtain my complex impedance at the input >>of the coax cable? >> >>de KJ4UO >> > > > I would caution you in regard to measuring the values of the C's and > the L of your pi network. If you actually have an RF bridge or other > test equipment suitable for accurately making such measurements, you > are indeed lucky. Even with such equipment, you should realize that > you will have to disconnect certain components from one another in the > tuner in order to actually make the measurements on each of the three > components. You are also probably going to have to remove some of > those components entirely in order to make the measurements with > reasonably short leads. For anything below 10 MHz, the lead length > will not be a significant factor. > > Assuming that you are successful in making the measurements with good > accuracy, the necessary calculations require a good knowledge of > complex numbers and complex arithmetic - much of which is adequately > explained in the Amateur Radio Handbook. > > My suggestion at that point would be to simply post your results, > including the frequency of measurement, to this forum and request that > one of us make the calculations for you. I'm sure many, including > myself, would be glad to do that for you. It's the quickest way, by > far. > > > Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA > Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail > w9dmkcrosslinknet > http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk > http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html > Article: 215928 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Sonny Hood Subject: Re: Rohn 25G & Stuff FS Message-ID: <1j9se11jjhignc58kvbfa23b7ulakegis4@4ax.com> References: <8p0oe1hgvml61igimp6rltsdqb1q134hmk@4ax.com> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 09:41:39 -0400 The heavy duty ground anchors have been sold. On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:51:33 -0400, Sonny Hood wrote: >1. Rohn 25G tower, 89 feet consisting of one (1) top section with the >two inch tube, seven (7) each ten (10) foot sections plus a nine (9) >foot section where it was cut out of the roof pitch box. The tower is >sound, no freeze cracks or blow outs. There is rust on about 30% of >the tower. For PICK UP in Chesapeake, Virginia, along Rt. 17 just >below Portsmouth. $180.00 > >2. One Rohn 25G Anti Twist Guy Clamp, has the three 18 inch solid >pieces that the guy wire attaches to. Also for PICK UP in Chesapeake, >Va. $10.00 > >ALL OF THE ABOVE can be picked up for $185.00 > >3. Commercial Made Heavy Duty 8 element Vertical Beam converted to 440 >MHz, average SWR across 70 centimeter band is below 1.3: 1 >$75 or Best Offer >4. Ninety nine (99) feet of Belden 9913 Coax w/ PL-259s (USED) $25.00 >5. Three (3) each eight (8) foot Heavy Duty Screw Anchors(USED) $30.00 > >Some of these Items will be brought to the Berryville Virginia >Hamfest, for a slight increase in the going price. I will sell items >for quoted price if money sent before Berryville trip. Gas ain't >Cheap! Article: 215931 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Message-ID: <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:38:55 -0400 On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 15:52:19 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) wrote: >Jim Kelley wrote: >"That`s because power doesn`t propagate, I hasten to add - neither do >Poynting vectors.: > >Some world-class experts disagree with Jim. Here is a sample quotation >using the words "power flow". > >From E.M. Purcell writing about "Antenna Gain and Receiving Cross >Section" on page 19 of "Radar System Engineering" edited by Louis M. >Ridenour: >"If the transmitting antenna were to radiate energy isotropically-that >is, uniformly in all directions-the power flow through unit area at a >distance R, from the antenna could be found by dividing P, the total >radiated power, by 4piRsquared." > >Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Richard, in addition to Ridenour, I quote from Reflections 1 and 2, Chapter 8, "A semantic problem with the term "power flow" also fuels the erroneous belief that reflected power is fictitious. This brings us to the question, "Does power flow?" To help us understand the answer, let's examine an analogy that involves current. When we talk about "current flow," we take the meaning for granted. However, does current really flow? The basic electricity sections of engineering textbooks (also The ARRL Handbook) say that current does not flow--charge flows. Current is defined as the quantity of charge flowing past a point per unit time. However, once we leave basic electricity and move on to circuit analysis, the term "current flow" is used almost exclusively--and yet we know exactly what is meant. The same problem exists with the term "power flow." Engineering textbooks define power as the "quantity of energy passing a point per unit time." Thus, power does not flow--energy flows. However, except when reciting the definition of power, textbooks and journals on wave propagation use the term "power flow" almost exclusively, with only an occasional use of "energy flow." As with "current flow," we know what is meant because of the common usage which generally overshadows the strict definition." Perhaps this explanation will satisfy Jim, but perhaps not. We'll see. Walt, W2DU Article: 215932 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:42:50 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42ee440b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > "If the transmitting antenna were to radiate energy isotropically-that > ... -the power flow through unit area at a > distance R, ... What virtually every engineer means when he says, "power flow", is, "the power (energy per unit-time) associated with the energy flow". Knowing Jim, he would also probably argue that the sun doesn't rise - that instead, the earth rotates. However, most weather forcasts on TV gives the times for sunrise and sunset. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215933 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 11:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <25693-42EE4A2E-803@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: <1122384260.192220.309430@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Cecil, W5DXP wrote: "What is it about, "...all "lost" reflected intensity will appear as enhanced intensity in the transmitted beam." that you guys don`t understand?" A quarter-wave intermediate impedance line section can perfectly match different resistances at its ends. When a match exists at the end of a line, there is no discontinuity and the line appears as if infinite. There is no reflection from an impedance match. It`s a multiplicity of waves which seem gratuitous. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215934 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" Subject: Re: Can you solve this 2? Message-ID: References: <42e043ba$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42e0ffac$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <7i62e1pmql43flb3dl4kld1dl9k099dp5g@4ax.com> <47e39$42e12b57$97d55ac3$13729@ALLTEL.NET> <45e2e1lq6agv7v6j29ih812a4dtn95g877@4ax.com> <1122061974_183@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1122088931_331@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <3tl3e1pqi2dml7oqn2dt2pni1s17lo9r5f@4ax.com> <1122121411_315@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:35:26 -0700 Cecil: I just consulted my tea leaves, they say you will be properly forgiven by gentlemen, they don't indicate where to find the gentlemen at, unfortuantly. Also, I expect there is an "error factor" in the data I received from the leaves today. Running out of tea leaves, I had to substitute marijuana leaves, I improvised a method of using them by first smoking the leaves and then reading their ashes. Gawd I am hungry, got a sudden case of the munchies here! John On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 07:20:57 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: > Richard Clark wrote: >> It bears re-visiting to wrap this up, but I have no doubt it will make >> any impression on your future claims. > > My mistake was a semantic one. I didn't know the definition > of "glare" and used the word improperly. I appologized for > that mistake as soon as I realized it. Because of the > incorrect definition, I probably inadvertenly made some > false statements about "glare". If you replace the word > "glare" with "reflections" in all my postings, the claims > are still valid, given the boundary conditions. One semantic > mistake does not overturn the laws of physics. > >> Tomorrow we continue the brutal examination. > > Since glare (defined properly) has nothing to do with > transmission lines, it is off topic for this thread. > This thread has always been about reflections. My > mistake was in thinking that "glare" and "reflections" > were synonyms. Article: 215935 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:42:09 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > "That`s because power doesn`t propagate, I hasten to add - neither do > Poynting vectors.: > > Some world-class experts disagree with Jim. Here is a sample quotation > using the words "power flow". > > From E.M. Purcell writing about "Antenna Gain and Receiving Cross > Section" on page 19 of "Radar System Engineering" edited by Louis M. > Ridenour: > "If the transmitting antenna were to radiate energy isotropically-that > is, uniformly in all directions-the power flow through unit area at a > distance R, from the antenna could be found by dividing P, the total > radiated power, by 4piRsquared." > > Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI There's nothing wrong with calculating the power per unit area at any point in a transmission line. I'm sorry if I gave some other impression. The problem I have is with believing that the calculated value propagates as if it were an electromagnetic field. The Poynting vector is useful for making calculations, but it not a useful tool for explaining the behavior of natural phenomenon. 73, ac6xg Article: 215936 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 10:45:05 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <42ee440b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Richard Harrison wrote: > >> "If the transmitting antenna were to radiate energy isotropically-that >> ... -the power flow through unit area at a > distance R, ... > > > What virtually every engineer means when he says, "power flow", > is, "the power (energy per unit-time) associated with the energy > flow". Knowing Jim, he would also probably argue that the sun > doesn't rise - that instead, the earth rotates. However, most > weather forcasts on TV gives the times for sunrise and sunset. Yea, somebody around here once said that I would probably step out of the shower to take a pee. To that I say why would anyone step into it to take one? ;-) 73, ac6xg Article: 215937 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:49:42 -0500 Message-ID: <8747-42EE60B6-1033@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> References: <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> Walt, W2DU wrote: "A semantic problem with the term "Power Flow" also fuels the erroneous belief that reflected power is fictitious." Another world-class expert has agreed that power flows. Energy may or may not flow. It is the accumulation of flows that you pay for on your monthly electric bill. Power is the rate of delivering energy (doing wotk), so it can`t stand still. No power flow, no work. Take it from W2DU. Reflections are important. Reflections occur at discontinuities. To the extent that voltage and current are in-phase, they mean real power. Zo is resistive in a practical r-f transmission line. Incident and reflected waves both propagate on the line with their individual voltages and currents locked in-phase. The sum of incident and reflected waves can`t be relied upon to indicate power, but infividually each wave can indicate true power. The reflected wave interferes with the incident wave to produce standing waves. These represent the impedance distribution along the line. They do not represent variation of power in the wave in eather direction. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215938 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:11:44 -0700 Message-ID: <11essvk3dfhne4@corp.supernews.com> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <1122919621.487488.236540@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> That's a worthwhile educational exercise. You might find a single equation, but it gets a bit messy. However, it's easily done in a few steps, if you're comfortable with complex arithmetic. I use an HP48GX calculator for this sort of thing, since it readily and directly handles complex numbers. Call the capacitor on the input side of the network C1 and the on the output side C2, and the inductor L. First calculate the reactance of each of them at the frequency of interest, Xc1, Xl, and Xc2. You'll find formulas for those in the Handbook. Note that Xc1 and Xc2 will be negative and Xl will be positive. First calculate the parallel combination of the load impedance (Zl) and Xc2. That will be the impedance seen looking toward the load from the output side of the inductor: Za = Zl || Xc2 = (Rl + jXl) || (jXc2), where Xc2 is negative. The combined impedance of two impedances Z1 and Z2 in parallel are 1 / ((1/Z1) + (1/Z2)) = (Z1 * Z2) / (Z1 + Z2). Now add Xl to your result to find the Z looking into the input side of the inductor: Zb = Za + jXl. (If the inductor has appreciable loss, use Zl = Rl + jXl instead of just jXl.) Finally, calculate the parallel combination of that impedance and the impedance of the input capacitor to find the impedance looking into the network: Zin = Zb || jXc1, remembering that Xc1 will be negative. You can of course combine all this into one equation, but it gets pretty big. I prefer to do it in steps, one of the reasons being that I understand exactly what I'm doing at each step rather than just dumping numbers into an equation and hoping that what comes out is right. A Smith Chart gives you an even better feel for what's going on, and this would be a good opportunity to get acquainted with that valuable tool. You might solve the problem both arithmetically and by using the Smith Chart and compare results. If you aren't comfortable with complex arithmetic, the equations get considerably more complicated since you'll have to deal with the resistance and reactance separately. If that's the case, I second the advice already given that you either solve it using a Smith Chart or consider just letting one of the other folks on this group do the calculation for you. Roy Lewallen, W7EL pdrunen@aol.com wrote: > I have an MFJ-269 which I can measure the input to the coax and get a > direct impedance measurement. > > Then I would put the tuner in line with the MFJ-269 as the source and > adjust the tuner until I see 50 + j0 on the MFJ. > > I would follow by measuring the pi-network components also using the > MFJ as it will measure values at the desired RF frequency. > > I would keep the signal frequency low so that stray inductance and > capacitance do not affect the measurement. > > What I would like to do is see by using the values I obtain, calculate > the cable load and compare with MFJ direct measurement. > > I will review the handbook to see if there is a standard equation > knowing the values and assume that the Q of the inductor is greater > than 10. > > > > > All in the fun of the hobby. > > > de KJ4UO > Article: 215939 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bill KB3GUN" Subject: Cushcraft MA5B Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:22:33 -0400 Message-ID: <42ee8477$0$5360$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> Anyone here using the MA-5B? I'm running a 360ft loop at 60 feet now (thru a tuner) and I'd like to get something more directional for DX. I was told by others that a vertical would be good for DX but I had an MFJ vertical before and I wasn't too fond of it. 15, 17 and 20M are my bands of choice. A 7ft boom with the longest element around 17ft. For a small beam, is this a good choice? 73! Smitty kb3gun Article: 215940 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: need help understanding this broad band antenna Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 20:25:40 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <-M6dnXhJ4bWj8nPfRVn-qg@rogers.com> Greetings to you Larry, Any length of wire is a 'valid' antenna. i.e., it is sure to work. If it's a short wire it will have sharply resonant frequencies and will not be broadband. If it's long enough, and its normal attenuation is high enough, it behaves as a transmission line and its input impedance will eventualy converge on the line Zo. Depending on height above ground, on wire diameter, and on the general environment, Zo will be roughly resistive between 500 and 600 ohms. You then have your wideband antenna. A 9-to-1 matching transformer reduces the impedance to about 60 ohms which is very nicely between 50 and 75 ohms. So you can take your pick of what impedance receiver you use. If the antenna is not very long in terms of wavelengths, or even if it is, it can be terminated, at the remote end, to ground with a 560-ohm resistor and then the antenna will have an input impedance of about 560 ohms all the way from DC up to many, many MHz. Which is wideband enough to keep everybody happy. Unfortunately the antenna's radiation pattern is many-lobed in the direction of the wire. When terminated it is highly uni-directional which is unlikely to be of much use to most people. It will nearly always be in the wrong direction. Which is why it is not very popular except for static, specialised, point-to-point LF communications. It's really quite simple. Try not to be distracted by over-complicating experts on reflected and non-reflected power and standing waves. Actually there is a name for such a wideband antenna. But I can't think of it at the moment. It may be the early symptoms of Alzeimers. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 215941 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <-M6dnXhJ4bWj8nPfRVn-qg@rogers.com> Subject: Re: need help understanding this broad band antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:28:13 -0400 Where did you read about this antenna ? Receivers can withstand a lot more swr than transmitters, so it should work fine for swl. Compared to< no antenna>, its great. It might work better if you had an antenna tuner between the antenna and the radio. "larry" wrote in message news:-M6dnXhJ4bWj8nPfRVn-qg@rogers.com... > Greetings > > I have been reading about this new? broadband antenna... It seems mainly > used in the short wave receiver domain but I also find newly licenced > amateur also using it... > > It is a spin-off of the 'end fed' antenna but seems to have some point > blurred in the translation..... > > The antenna is constructed as follows.... > > A random length of wire any where from 40 feet to 140 feet.. The end nearest > the house is connected to one end of the high impedance end of a 9 to1 > balun.. The other end of this end of the balun is connnected to ground... > > The arguement is that because the high impedance end is connected to ground > that the antenna is quieter...less noise... > > The low impedance end of the balun is connected, via a length of 50 ohm > cable, to the receiver... or transceiver... > > The other end of the cable is connecte to the receiver or transceiver and > needs to use an antenna coupler..... > > My question.. is this a valid antenna.... > > Personally, I don't think so... > > I beleive that because the antenna comes to the radio in 50 ohm coad but > still needs an antenna coupler the swr must be high therefore the antenna in > not valid... > > Someone suggested that this design is a spin-off of an end fed dipole or > zepp ...but I disagree...I think there are a few points missing for it to > qualify as an end fed dipole or zepp... > > Larry ve3fxq > > anyways.. any thoughts?... > > Article: 215942 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: Subject: Re: 10 meter dish antenna on ebay Message-ID: <7LvHe.174$Mo.16@bignews5.bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:39:48 -0400 A dish for 10-meters ???? WHOA!! Can we cut it down for CB cuz I want to put 2 of those bad boys on my pickup. one to face the traffic and the other to face the folks I just run over cuz I couldn't see in front because the dish blocked my view. will it take 5kw and a swinging modulator? yeee haw. "Hap Griffin" wrote in message news:RBzGe.54559$oj4.1279316@twister.southeast.rr.com... > If you're interested in EME or radio-astronomy, there is a 10 meter C-band > uplink dish available on ebay at > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5794042849&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1 . > > Hap Griffin > WZ4O > > Article: 215943 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <7LvHe.174$Mo.16@bignews5.bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: 10 meter dish antenna on ebay Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:59:55 -0400 Message-ID: Just for grins, I took my XYL and drove by where it is setting. It is located about 8 miles from my house. Told her I was going to bid on it on E-Bay and put it in the front yard. I can't repeat her response here :>) "Hal Rosser" wrote in message news:7LvHe.174$Mo.16@bignews5.bellsouth.net... > A dish for 10-meters ???? WHOA!! Can we cut it down for CB cuz I want to > put 2 of those bad boys on my pickup. > one to face the traffic and the other to face the folks I just run over cuz > I couldn't see in front because the dish blocked my view. will it take 5kw > and a swinging modulator? yeee haw. > > > "Hap Griffin" wrote in message > news:RBzGe.54559$oj4.1279316@twister.southeast.rr.com... > > If you're interested in EME or radio-astronomy, there is a 10 meter C-band > > uplink dish available on ebay at > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5794042849&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1 . > > > > Hap Griffin > > WZ4O > > > > > > Article: 215944 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: W9DMK (Robert Lay) Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:09:16 GMT Message-ID: <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:21:59 GMT, chuck wrote: >If he has an RF bridge, couldn't he simply terminate the tuner's input >with 50 ohms resistive and measure the impedance at the tuner's output? >Well, the conjugate, anyway. I'm trying to imagine the benefit of doing >it that way, rather than simply measuring the impedance at the >transmission line directly. > >Chuck, >NT3G I will break my own rule of not responding to responders and answer your question - otherwise you would assume that I was ignoring you. If I might answer a question with a question - why do you think that a tuner would give up its settings so easily? It's a an interesting speculation. First, let me clarify what I mean by a Tuner's input terminal and its output terminal. Considering that a tuner handles transmitted power in one direction only, we should refer to its "input" side as the port that connects to the transmitter and its "output" port as the one connecting to the antenna or feedline. That agrees with what I interpret your post as suggesting. Therefore, a 50 ohm termination at the "input" side "should" produce a measured impedance at the "output" port that is, as you say, the complex conjugate of the impedance seen looking into the transmission line. I haven't done a rigorous analysis of that configuration, but it certainly seems reasonable and correct. It would, indeed be an optimum way of inferring the impedance that the original poster is trying to measure. I see nothing wrong with your suggestion and would recommend it. I also see no reason to do any of that as it would be just as easy to measure the transmission line input impedance directly - as you said. It's amazing how much good stuff comes out of the woodwork when people are interested in their hobby and interested in learning. Thanks, Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail w9dmkcrosslinknet http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html Article: 215945 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bert Craig" References: <42ee8477$0$5360$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> Subject: Re: Cushcraft MA5B Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 17:13:44 -0400 "Bill KB3GUN" wrote in message news:42ee8477$0$5360$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com... > Anyone here using the MA-5B? I'm running a 360ft loop at 60 feet now (thru > a tuner) and I'd like to get something more directional for DX. I was told > by others that a vertical would be good for DX but I had an MFJ vertical > before and I wasn't too fond of it. 15, 17 and 20M are my bands of choice. > > A 7ft boom with the longest element around 17ft. For a small beam, is this > a good choice? > > 73! > Smitty kb3gun Hi Smitty, IMHO, the TGM Hybrid-Quad is a better choice. I have the six band 2 el. model. http://www3.sympatico.ca/tgmc/ Hope this helps. Take care, GL es... -- Vy 73 de Bert WA2SI FISTS #9384/CC #1736 QRP ARCI #11782 Article: 215946 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 14:35:48 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87wtnd783u.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> <18310-42EA78A9-409@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1122691711.436529.138360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42ec3664$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > If the power associated with > an EM pulse is not in the pulse, where is it? According to definition, the 'effect' of power is something which can be realized at a place where energy either is being transferred from, or transferred to. The amount of effect is proportional to the rate at which energy is transfered. But power is not the thing which is being transferred from one place to another. Often times though we want to know the rate at which energy is being transferred to or from one place to another, and there are mechanisms we can use to measure things that manifest themselves in proportion to that quantity. But some folks forget that it's just a tool for making accurate predictions about things, and start to believe some odd things about the behavior of nature. One must be careful not to mistake a physical quantity for a physical entity. 73, ac6xg Article: 215947 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 21:52:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> If the tuner can cope, there's not much interest in what the input impedance of the transmission line is. What IS of interest is what impedance terminates the remote end of the transmission line. Usually this is the antenna. And usually this is impractical to measure directly. >From the input impedance of the transmission line, Program ZL_ZIN computes the input impedance of the antenna (or whatever may be at the other end ). It is also necessary to know the length of the line and its Zo. Download in a few seconds program ZL_ZIN from website below and run immediately, ---- ........................................................... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ........................................................... Article: 215948 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:35:24 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> Walter Maxwell wrote: > The same problem exists with the term "power flow." Engineering > textbooks define power as the "quantity of energy passing a point per > unit time." Thus, power does not flow--energy flows. However, except > when reciting the definition of power, textbooks and journals on wave > propagation use the term "power flow" almost exclusively, with only an > occasional use of "energy flow." As with "current flow," we know what > is meant because of the common usage which generally overshadows the > strict definition." > Perhaps this explanation will satisfy Jim, but perhaps not. We'll see. > > Walt, W2DU > Hi Walt, I am familiar with the common usage of the expression 'power flow' and of course the Poynting vector. I've been explaining that "energy flows - not power" on this newsgroup for 4 years and have gotten nothing but grief for it. I think it will be more interesting to see whether your explanation will satisfy the others. 73, ac6xg Article: 215949 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:42:19 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> With sufficient accuracy, knowing its maximum value, it is possible to estimate the value of an air-spaced variable capacitor setting just by looking at it. Similarly, the value of a coil can be calculated by counting the number of turns and guessing its length and diameter. The calculation is simple enough. I've done it dozens of times. It gets you into the right ballpark. Which is quite accurate enough for amateur radio purposes. There's no need for rocket science. I can't understand the abysmal state of education in simple arithmetic in our primary schools. We should import the kids who inhabit the sewers of Rio de Janerio and other American cities and employ them as arithmetic teachers. It would be more economic than culling by armed police. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 215950 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Harold Burton" Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:35:46 -0500 Message-ID: <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dcm8gb$rqu$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > > With sufficient accuracy, knowing its maximum value, it is possible to > estimate the value of an air-spaced variable capacitor setting just by > looking at it. > > Similarly, the value of a coil can be calculated by counting the > number of turns and guessing its length and diameter. The calculation > is simple enough. > > I've done it dozens of times. It gets you into the right ballpark. > Which is quite accurate enough for amateur radio purposes. There's no > need for rocket science. > > I can't understand the abysmal state of education in simple arithmetic > in our primary schools. We should import the kids who inhabit the > sewers of Rio de Janerio and other American cities and employ them as > arithmetic teachers. It would be more economic than culling by armed > police. > ---- > Reg, G4FGQ > I credit the California and Oklahoma Public Schools for my mathematical illiteracy. Went to school in Bakersfield in 1947, got straight A cause the math they taught in the 9th grade was the math I learned in Oklahoma in the 4th grade. Returned to Oklahoma in the middle of the school year and was placed in a 2nd semester Algebra class. Teacher was a coach who spent most of his class time working with (on?) a female student whom he later married. Even if I had been truly interested I'd never have been able to catch up. I was passed on even though I was totally incompetent in Algebra.( this was before social passing became common in the public schools)They should have adjusted my schedule and had me start at the beginning Algebra semester even if it required some class juggling the following year. Perhaps they thought they were doing me a favor, or maybe they just didn't realize how retro the California school math was. Harold KD5SAK Article: 215951 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: chuck Subject: Re: Pi network question References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 01:58:34 GMT Good point, Wes. A reminder that a 1:1 swr at the input of a lossy tuner is not proof of a perfect match at the output! Chuck NT3G Wes Stewart wrote: > > > Let's pretend that the antenna (load) Z = 49 +j0. Let's also pretend > that the "tuner" consists of a series 1 ohm resistor. > > Looking into the input of the "tuner" we measure 50 +j0. Pretty good, > huh? > > Terminating the input of the tuner with 50 +j0 and looking from the > other end we measure 51 +j0. Whoops. > > Best have a lossless tuner to play this game. > > > > Article: 215952 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 22:02:49 -0500 Message-ID: <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> Jim Kelley wrote: "That`s because power doesn`t propagate, and hasten to add - neither do Poynting vectots." One could make a long list of serious authors who freely treat power as moving energy. I namrd Ktaus, Ridenour, Purcell, and Walter Maxwell. Terman was another world-class expert who was unafraid of the word "power". On page 76 of his 1955 edition he wrote: "Alternatively, a load impedance may be matched to a source of power in such a way as to make the power delivered to the load a maximum (The power delivered to the load under these conditions is termed the available power of the power source). This is accomplished by making the load impedance the conjugate of the generator impedance as defined by Thevenin`s theorem. That is, the load impedance must have the same magnitude as the generator impedance, but the phase angle of the load is the negative of the phase angle of the generator impedance." I have not yet seen a copy of "Reflections", but would bet that W2DU says the same thing, perhaps in fewer and shorter words. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215953 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:06:57 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <1122384260.192220.309430@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <25693-42EE4A2E-803@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42ef0082$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Anyway, the optical analogue has proven to be a bust when I > demonstrated that reflection products do persist. This is not the > place to hash over that again. If you wish, you can consult my > original posting and the follow-ons for details. But in your "proof", you superposed powers which is a no-no. When 111.1mW interfers with 87.78mW, the result is not (111.1-87.78). Since the associated E-fields are 180 degrees out of phase, the power equation must take the interference into account. Pref1 = 111.1mW + 87.78mW - 2* sqrt(111.1*87.78) Pref1 = 111.1mW + 87.78mW - 197.5mW = 1.38mW You subtract 87.78 from 111.1 and get 23.32. That value is almost 17 times too high. All your math after that is invalid. All except 1.38mW of reflections are canceled by that first internal reflection. Your value of 23.32 is simply wrong. RF engineers usually convert to voltage, perform the superposition, and then calculate the total power. One doesn't have that luxury when dealing with light so the power (irradiance) equations must be used to obtain the correct results. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215954 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:18:27 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42ef0333$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > I am familiar with the common usage of the expression 'power flow' and > of course the Poynting vector. I've been explaining that "energy flows - > not power" on this newsgroup for 4 years and have gotten nothing but > grief for it. I think it will be more interesting to see whether your > explanation will satisfy the others. Would you agree that the amount of energy passing a point in a unit-time is power? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215955 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:27:40 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > "That`s because power doesn`t propagate, and hasten to add - neither do > Poynting vectots." > > One could make a long list of serious authors who freely treat power as > moving energy. I namrd Ktaus, Ridenour, Purcell, and Walter Maxwell. You can add Walter Johnson, Simon Ramo, and John Whinnery to that list. "Power in the reflected wave" is commonly mentioned. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215956 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 00:39:05 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > I am familiar with the common usage of the expression 'power flow' and > of course the Poynting vector. I've been explaining that "energy flows - > not power" on this newsgroup for 4 years and have gotten nothing but > grief for it. You are technically correct but it doesn't matter. The Sun will rise tomorrow even if the Sun is fixed in space. I'll even bolster your argument. RF energy moves at the speed of light in the transmission line. The power meter is standing still compared to the transmission line. If the power meter were moving with the energy at the speed of light, it wouldn't work at all. Does that help? :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215957 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 07:27:00 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> The difference between teaching reading and writing and teaching arithmetic is that practical uses for reading and writing are immediately apparent to children. Whereas teachers of arithmetic, and then maths, fail to show children the many interesting and practical uses of the subject. It's lack of imagination on the part of teachers - and laziness. They have no interest in the subject themselves. They are themselves victims of poor teaching and of the system which selects them to be teachers. In the UK it can be traced back to ignorance on the part of Ministers of Education. It is a great pity children are not given the opportunity to appreciate the beauty in Mathematics. In England, first year engineering university students have to spend the first 6 months being taught what they should have learned at the age of 14. Including how to read and write. Just prior to a General Election (of Members of Parliament) in the UK I once asked a prospective MP what seven nines were. He didn't know! Yet there was the possibility he could end up as the Chancellor of the Exchequer or even as a Minister of Education. As the meeting was being held in a public house the prospective MP changed the subject and bought me a pint of beer. Presumably in a futile attempt at bribery for a vote. Eventually he lost his deposit (of £500) for failing to collect the necessary small minimum number of votes. ---- Reg. Article: 215958 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dvd567@webtv.net (Pirate Radio) Subject: 40 meter pirate radio,1710.am qrp need ant ideas. Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:01:16 -0500 Message-ID: <6792-42EF284C-1106@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net> need ant for my station thinking about a very long wire ant i have lots of acres so it dont matter listen out for my station playing all kinds of music no black crap only pure classic rock and southern rock ozzie stuff like that and preaching from rev moore where i go to church i almost off my meds the radio helps me out tv freaks me out only will will run qrp about 5 watts or less maybe once a month i will broadcast anyway good luck on dxing hope u here me funny farm radio Article: 215959 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 'Doc Subject: Re: need help understanding this broad band antenna References: <-M6dnXhJ4bWj8nPfRVn-qg@rogers.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 09:25:07 GMT Larry, Is it a 'valid' antenna? Ah, yes, with several 'buts' that 'add to' / 'subtract from' that 'validity'. The 'biggy' questions are what length and what frequency of use? Those will determine the input impedance of the thing, and who says that a 9:1 is going to be the 'right' impedance transormation ratio? That 9:1 thingy is basically taking the place of a tuner, which would make the thing a much more 'valid' multiband antenna, but not necessarily a very broadbanded one. So while there is some validity, I don't think I'd say it was totally valid, broadbanded, or multibanded. Not bad advertising though... 'Doc Article: 215960 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 08:22:20 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <87wtnd783u.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> <18310-42EA78A9-409@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <1122691711.436529.138360@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42ec3664$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42ef749c$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> If the power associated with >> an EM pulse is not in the pulse, where is it? > > According to definition, the 'effect' of power is something which can be > realized at a place where energy either is being transferred from, or > transferred to. Please define "transfer" in this context. The IEEE Dictionary defines "transfer capability - the capacity and ability of a transmission line to allow for the reliable MOVEMENT OF ELECTRIC POWER from an area of supply to an area of need." Emphasis mine. > But power is not the thing which is being transferred from one place > to another. Jim, we can use your logic to solve most of the racial problems in the USA. Black Americans are not black. White Americans are not white. These statements can be proven beyond any doubt by using a light spectrometer. Therefore, since there are no black people and no white people, there can exist no clash between black culture and white culture. All racial problems are therefore declared solved. Next problem? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215961 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Neven Mrduljas" Subject: Tonna F9FT Satellite Yagi Antenna 20899 Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 16:34:08 +0200 Message-ID: <1122993348.325118@internet.fina.hr> Does anybody have experience with this antenna in satellite operation? If yes, can this antenna be used for local operation on 2m because angle between planes of 2m and 70 cm antennas and ground surface is cca 45degrees? Does anybody know the reason this antenna is tilted for cca 45 degrees? All experiences with this antenna are welcome! 73 de Neven, 9A5YY Article: 215962 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: drwxr-xr-x Subject: Re: 40 meter pirate radio,1710.am qrp need ant ideas. Date: 2 Aug 2005 16:28:43 GMT Message-ID: References: <6792-42EF284C-1106@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net> On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:01:16 -0500, Pirate Radio wrote: > need ant for my station thinking about a very long wire ant i have lots > of acres so it dont matter listen out for my station playing all kinds > of music no black crap only pure classic rock and southern rock ozzie > stuff like that and preaching from rev moore where i go to church i > almost off my meds the radio helps me out tv freaks me out only will > will run qrp about 5 watts or less maybe once a month i will broadcast > anyway good luck on dxing hope u here me funny farm radio Isn't it frightening when the hopelessly illiterate are found playing with sophisticated technology? Article: 215963 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:45:17 GMT "greg knapp 5" wrote in message news:xMSdnQsEIcAoXHPfRVn-3Q@speakeasy.net... >I need your advice, as I have never worked with open wire lines before. > I need to feed many different antennas with open wire line and need to run > the feeline from each about 200 feet from the back pasture to the shack. I > don't want to walk out 200 feet and throw knife switches to chose the > antenna/feedline I want to feed, so I plan to run separate 600 ohm open > feeds for each antenna all the way to the shack. > The problem is I don't know what the effect is or how to handle the > multiple open wire feed lines, as they will be parallel for probably > 150-200 feet. I haven't found anything in literature describing this. > For instance, will they interact? how far do you space the feedlines from > one another? If I have 4 feedlines, can I stack them vertically or > horizontally one foot apart from each other? How much is enough > separation? What other precautions do I need? Need they be twisted if > they are not near anything other than the other feed lines? > Any help is appreciated. > 73, > Greg, N6GK Hi Greg: I have just run a free space NEC 2 model of a pair of horizontally positioned 6" wide, 600 ohm, transmission lines, vertically separated by 12". The model was run from 29 to 31 MHz. On 30 MHz , with both lines terminated in 600 ohms the isolation was about 39 dB. With both lines terminated in 6,000 ohms the isolation improved to 66 dB. The actual range of impedances will be much higher, and complex, but it does give an idea of the order of magnitude of the isolation. The calculation is based on the ratio of the peak currents observed. Hope this helps, 73, Frank (VE6CB) Article: 215964 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:26:26 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef0333$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> I am familiar with the common usage of the expression 'power flow' and >> of course the Poynting vector. I've been explaining that "energy flows >> - not power" on this newsgroup for 4 years and have gotten nothing but >> grief for it. I think it will be more interesting to see whether your >> explanation will satisfy the others. > > > Would you agree that the amount of energy passing a point > in a unit-time is power? Or even more to the point: Do you believe the 'amount of motorcycle' passing a point in a unit time is speed? :-) The units speak plainly enough for themselves. Why do you ask me? You're the one who always turns these things into a religious argument over 'belief' systems. 73, ac6xg Article: 215965 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:28:09 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Richard Harrison wrote: > >> Jim Kelley wrote: >> "That`s because power doesn`t propagate, and hasten to add - neither do >> Poynting vectots." >> >> One could make a long list of serious authors who freely treat power as >> moving energy. I namrd Ktaus, Ridenour, Purcell, and Walter Maxwell. > > > You can add Walter Johnson, Simon Ramo, and John Whinnery to > that list. "Power in the reflected wave" is commonly mentioned. Proving what, exactly? That power is "in" a reflected wave? ac6xg Article: 215966 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > You are technically correct but it doesn't matter. You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of view. It sure seemed to matter to you - before yesterday. > RF energy moves at the speed > of light in the transmission line. The power meter is > standing still compared to the transmission line. If the > power meter were moving with the energy at the speed of > light, it wouldn't work at all. Does that help? :-) Might be the seed of an idea there for a real nerdy Saturday morning science fiction cartoon. "Cecil and the Power Meters" Now that's the kind of humor that actually merits a smiley face! :-) ac6xg Article: 215967 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ken Bessler" Subject: Suggestions? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 14:03:11 -0500 I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following idea: I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for 50 ohm RG-58 cable. The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. -- Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 Article: 215968 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: Subject: Re: Suggestions? Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 15:16:36 -0400 Message-ID: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> I told Lance, and now I will tell you, if you get in my way in your little faggoty outfits and goofy helmets, I will run your ass over. Don't worry, I will call 911 and let them know where to pick up your traffic blocking body. "Ken Bessler" wrote in message news:QrPHe.35144$Eo.25151@fed1read04... > I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > idea: > > I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > > Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > 50 ohm RG-58 cable. > > The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > > Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. > > -- > Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX > Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 > Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 > > Article: 215969 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:19:45 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > Just prior to a General Election (of Members of Parliament) in the UK > I once asked a prospective MP what seven nines were. He didn't know! He probably thought you were using Cockney rhyming slang, and wasn't familiar with the expression 'seven nines'. The correct answer to your querry was of course: extremely pure. :-) ac6xg Article: 215970 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Suggestions? Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 12:20:24 -0700 Message-ID: <11evhrske04g81f@corp.supernews.com> References: I suggest filing the bumps off a BNC female. Without them, the connector halves should fit snugly enough to stay together unless you tug on it. You could use a little tape, a weak rubber band, or something similar to hold it together a little more firmly while riding but which would break away fairly easily. If you try to use an RCA plug, the connections to it -- where you have to split to coax conductors apart -- will cause a much greater impedance bump than the connector itself. Since your communications seem to be short range, you should be able to get by with a pretty bad impedance bump, though. It would probably have the least effect if it's close to the rig rather than at the antenna end of the coax. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Ken Bessler wrote: > I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > idea: > > I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > > Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > 50 ohm RG-58 cable. > > The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > > Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. > > -- > Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX > Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 > Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 > > Article: 215971 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:01:01 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef0333$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42efe01e$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > The units speak plainly enough for themselves. Why do you ask me? > You're the one who always turns these things into a religious argument > over 'belief' systems. Jim, there are more references on my side than on yours. Your definitions are esoteric to say the least. My definitions are mainstream IEEE and agree with many authors of RF books and power industry standards. "There is no before and after!" (a quote from one of your emails to me). Would you mind proving that assertion? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215972 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:04:29 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> You can add Walter Johnson, Simon Ramo, and John Whinnery to >> that list. "Power in the reflected wave" is commonly mentioned. > > Proving what, exactly? That power is "in" a reflected wave? Proving that "Power in the reflected wave" is common usage in RF engineering. You are not going to get the human race to stop using the word, "sunrise", no matter what you say or do. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215973 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <11evhrske04g81f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:20:31 -0400 OR - tape your feet and hands to the bike so it will stay with you. "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11evhrske04g81f@corp.supernews.com... > I suggest filing the bumps off a BNC female. Without them, the connector > halves should fit snugly enough to stay together unless you tug on it. > You could use a little tape, a weak rubber band, or something similar to > hold it together a little more firmly while riding but which would break > away fairly easily. > > If you try to use an RCA plug, the connections to it -- where you have > to split to coax conductors apart -- will cause a much greater impedance > bump than the connector itself. Since your communications seem to be > short range, you should be able to get by with a pretty bad impedance > bump, though. It would probably have the least effect if it's close to > the rig rather than at the antenna end of the coax. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL > > Ken Bessler wrote: > > I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > > idea: > > > > I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > > race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > > deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > > > > Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > > my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > > connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > > will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > > HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > > need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > > apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > > 50 ohm RG-58 cable. > > > > The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > > connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > > > > Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. > > > > -- > > Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX > > Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 > > Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 > > > > Article: 215974 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:27:45 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42efe662$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> You are technically correct but it doesn't matter. > You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of > view. BS! Please don't confuse my ability to act as devil's advocate with what are my basic concepts. I have told you multiple times before over any number of years that I agree with you that power is energy passing a point or plane in a unit of time. That can be easily proven to be true with a little Google research. I'm old-fashioned enough to believe that joules/sec needs a reference measuring point or plane. That's what I was taught in the 50's and that's the concept that I still carry around in my head. What I have said lately is that any number of knowledgeable engineers and authors have an expanded definition of power. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215975 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 15:02:30 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe662$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> You are technically correct but it doesn't matter. > > >> You just spent 4 years vehemently arguing the exact opposite point of >> view. > > > BS! Now you're vehemently arguing about whether you argued or not. > What I have said lately is that any number of knowledgeable > engineers and authors have an expanded definition of power. That was never in dispute. You argued that power propagates and reflects, and I explained that it doesn't. Now you're behaving like a child. ac6xg Article: 215976 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 18:46:18 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Pi network question References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42f005cb$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > Just prior to a General Election (of Members of Parliament) in the UK > I once asked a prospective MP what seven nines were. He didn't know! Interesting that the same things have very different meanings. In my current business 7 nines would mean roughly 3.16 seconds. Can you tell me why? tom K0TAR Article: 215977 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Smith" References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> <42f005cb$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: Pi network question Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:05:32 -0700 the square root of seven nines is 3162.27... if the figure above were microseconds would be ~3.162 seconds. John "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:42f005cb$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > Reg Edwards wrote: > >> Just prior to a General Election (of Members of Parliament) in the UK >> I once asked a prospective MP what seven nines were. He didn't know! > > Interesting that the same things have very different meanings. > > In my current business 7 nines would mean roughly 3.16 seconds. Can you tell > me why? > > tom > K0TAR > Article: 215978 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:24:08 -0400 Why not just run one pair. Then split off at the end with the antennas. The signal will take the path of least resistance, so the most likely antenna for the job will be chosen automatically. The ones with high Z will resist. Resistance is not futile. My 2¢ (that "¢" key was tough to find) "greg knapp 5" wrote in message news:xMSdnQsEIcAoXHPfRVn-3Q@speakeasy.net... > I need your advice, as I have never worked with open wire lines before. > I need to feed many different antennas with open wire line and need to run > the feeline from each about 200 feet from the back pasture to the shack. I > don't want to walk out 200 feet and throw knife switches to chose the > antenna/feedline I want to feed, so I plan to run separate 600 ohm open > feeds for each antenna all the way to the shack. > The problem is I don't know what the effect is or how to handle the > multiple open wire feed lines, as they will be parallel for probably 150-200 > feet. I haven't found anything in literature describing this. > For instance, will they interact? how far do you space the feedlines from > one another? If I have 4 feedlines, can I stack them vertically or > horizontally one foot apart from each other? How much is enough separation? > What other precautions do I need? Need they be twisted if they are not near > anything other than the other feed lines? > Any help is appreciated. > 73, > Greg, N6GK > > Article: 215979 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Colin Gunn" Subject: Henry SS1200HF Solid State 1200 watt amplifier for sale Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 02:51:36 GMT For Sale One Henry SS1200HF solid state amplifier for sale. Very heavy duty construction. Requires 28V power supply. Was working when recently removed >from large pleasure boat. Good Condition overall. Email me if you would like more info / pics. cngunn@telus.net. Asking $975.00. Weighs 35 lbs. Located in Victoria, B.C. Canada. Colin, VE7TNT Article: 215980 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 23:08:22 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe662$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f04447$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > You argued that power propagates and > reflects, and I explained that it doesn't. Jim, you know that isn't true. After you reviewed my article, I changed every occurence of "reflected power" to "reflected energy" just to satisfy you. You have never been able to back up your assertions about what I have said with any quotes of mine. Wonder why? So once again, I challenge you to produce a quote where I said power propagates and reflects. I have always said that energy propagates and reflects and power is the measurement of that energy flowing past a point. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215981 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 00:09:47 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <11772-42ED3A03-245@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> <8kcse15s511hpcohv28f9kr6hcmu8is9rd@4ax.com> <42ef080a$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe662$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f052ac$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > You argued that power propagates and > reflects, and I explained that it doesn't. Jim, here's a posting from last year that proves your assertion to be false. I agreed with you last year that power doesn't flow and isn't reflected. I agreed with you that it is energy that flows and is reflected. I agreed with you that power is measured at a point. Seems an apology is in order. Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 14:28:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Additional Line Losses Due to SWR Jim Kelley wrote: > The crux of > the phenomenological problem is that power does not flow or move, nor is > it something that is reflected. But energy does flow and move and is something that can be reflected. You can easily see the energy packets using a TDR. Without energy, those pulses wouldn't exist. The energy is obviously in the pulse, where the voltage and current are. And joules of energy flowing past a point is joules/sec, i.e. power, by IEEE definition. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 215982 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 01:17:43 -0400 From: Very Tiny Subject: Re: Dell1350Wlan & NetGear Wgt624 NO DHCP Message-ID: References: <1122950650.658200.287500@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:44:10 -0700, Tbone wrote: On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 19:44:10 -0700, MR. TROY "Tbone" MANGUM ("Tbone" in the message <1122950650.658200.287...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote in the usenet group alt.internet.wireless a big fat question of curousity: > I cannot get my Dell 1350 WLAN card to obtain a DHCP from NETGEAR > WGT624. Even when I set ip to static I still cannot connect. My card > can see my SSID. I am getting a strong signal. But I cannot connect. I > have downloaded latest Dell 1350 drivers and NetGear firmware. My > NetGear route is a DHCP client to roadrunner. I can connect to internet > through a wire connection attached to my wireless router and it get a > dhcp address. > > any ideas? Sure. I know exactly what the problem is. In certain situations (especially when using the recent Dell issue wireless G chipsets in conjunction with the Netgear access points, an unhealthy high amount of static impedance buildup occurs in the surrounding atmosphere, particularly in areas of low and medium elevation (in mountainous high elevation regions this isn't nearly the case) as I am sure Dell Support has probably already explained. There a few ways to get around this. Do a query of all wireless devices, microwave ovens, RC devices and pleasure clubs (planes, and cars) and garage door openers. You will then need to place such devices under the inspection of a valid, certified operator of a high thermal stability micropower voltage reference meter. This sounds like a great deal of effort and expense but any typical radio shack employee could probably offer the service remotely for a fee of around 10 bucks or less (or at the very least turn you in the direction of some inexpensive alternative. You can try to use a static defusing device by placing large pieces of Styrofoam on top, beside, and underneath your wireless access devices. You might also want so smear a small amount of viscous material upon the antenna and external interfaces of your laptop and access point. This often fixes the problem as well. Article: 215983 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 05:34:30 GMT On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:41:42 -0700, "greg knapp 5" wrote: >Wow, then if I had 6" spacing, it would have to be 5 feet from the nearest >other feed line! With the three lines I want to bring in, that is a cross >pole of 10 feet! Wow...I better consider using my old 450 ohm window ladder >line with about 1.x inch spacing so I can get down to a reasonable spread! > >This is really opening my eyes up to the logistics of running this type of >feedline...low loss, but definitely more expense, bother, etc. than running >a bunch of coax lines! It almost makes me want to put up resonant antennas >(like parallel dipoles, fed with a balun and coax...so much easier!). I'm >going to have to think this through some more. > I worked in HF radio stations briefly a long time ago, and the practice there was, IIRC, two wire lines of 3mm HDC with 200mm spacing so they were around 600 ohms 'ish. There were also some 4 wire lines with similar spacing (in a box config). These lines were strung out on pole routes with separation about double the wire spacing. I can't remember now if there were periodic polarity reversals. These were at rx only or tx only facilities, so receiver de-sense was not an issue. Do you need full duplex? Clearly, the closer the lines the higher crosstalk (coupling from one line to another), and presumably, twisted lines will have lower crosstalk (think about the cat5 etc data cables). Don't forget, that the antennas at the far end are coupled, and achieving crosstalk of -100dB might not materially improve the solution! A pole route carrying a number of lines is a pretty serious project (installation and maintenance). I would also look around at remote switching solutions or multiband antennas to see if you can minimise the number of lines you need to string. Owen -- Article: 215984 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ed Price" References: Subject: Re: Suggestions? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 02:43:45 -0700 "Ken Bessler" wrote in message news:QrPHe.35144$Eo.25151@fed1read04... > I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > idea: > > I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > > Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > 50 ohm RG-58 cable. > > The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > > Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. Take a look at SMB or SMC coax connectors. One of those, IIRC, is a push-on style, and should uncouple before damaging the coax line. -- Ed WB6WSN El Cajon, CA USA Article: 215985 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:00:34 +0100 From: thehustler@hotmail.com (The hustler) Subject: F5VKM - New antennas ... Message-ID: All, I've been listening to this guy on 80/40m with his 60m high antenna, he's a huge signal with me and indeed crashed over the top of the pileups for the PY's on 40m the other eveningm now I see he is selling them. Might be worth a look if you have a small garden as it would appear it works fine from this type of QTH. www.f5vkm.com hustler ... Article: 215986 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Marc Delporte" Subject: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:51:32 +0200 Message-ID: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Hi I'm looking for the software "Terrain Analysis" from K6STI or equivalent. I do not find any links on the web to get it ! Is it still actual ? Is there equivalent (or better) software ? Thanks a lot Best regards 73' F1GSN Article: 215987 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent Message-ID: <5H4Ie.206292$on1.133533@clgrps13> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 14:40:01 GMT "Marc Delporte" wrote in message news:42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr... > Hi > > I'm looking for the software "Terrain Analysis" from K6STI or equivalent. > > I do not find any links on the web to get it ! > > Is it still actual ? Is there equivalent (or better) software ? > > Thanks a lot > > Best regards > > 73' F1GSN Would that be HF Terrain Assessment? It computes the effects of local terrain on the radiation pattern of antennas. The software was developed by N6BV, and is given free with purchase of the ARRL Antenna Book. See www.arrl.org 73, Frank (VE6CB) Article: 215988 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Message-ID: <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:47:04 -0400 On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:04:29 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: >Jim Kelley wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >>> You can add Walter Johnson, Simon Ramo, and John Whinnery to >>> that list. "Power in the reflected wave" is commonly mentioned. >> >> Proving what, exactly? That power is "in" a reflected wave? > >Proving that "Power in the reflected wave" is common >usage in RF engineering. You are not going to get the >human race to stop using the word, "sunrise", no >matter what you say or do. Jim, I'm sure you'll agree that voltage is reflected, and that current is also reflected. Then isn't the product of voltage and current power? Walt, W2DU Article: 215989 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:16:28 GMT "greg knapp 5" wrote in message news:fZ6dnTQPhP5J1G3fRVn-ig@speakeasy.net... > Thanks Frank for running the program and for the results. They give me a > good confirmation of what Riachard Clark showed me, I need to get more > space between these feeds than I was planning on. If I had 3 feeds, I > guess I ought to have a cross arm on my wood/PVC poles coming in and > spread the feeds by about two feet to minimize the interaction down to a > miniscule amount. I really do want to feed the antennas separately. Gee, > I wonder what W6AM used to do with his 10 or 12 rhombics fed with open > wire all coming into his home... > > 73, > > Greg, N6GK No Problem Greg, glad to help. Just for interest I ran the program at different spacings: at 6" the isolation is 27 dB, and at 2 ft 48 dB. Both these measurements with 600 ohm terminations. Balanced transmission lines radiate very little energy, but worst case occurs at the higher frequency. For example the maximum radiated RF from a terminated 600 ohm transmission line, at 30 MHz, is about -28 dBi. I have seen pictures of W6AM's transmission lines, but can no longer find them on the web. His antenna farm, as I understand, was purchased from a commercial HF station. Interesting little article on W6AM in http://www.mvarc.com/images/mvarcJULY05pp9.PDF 73, Frank Article: 215990 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:20:12 +0100 From: thehustler@hotmail.com (The hustler) Subject: Re: F5VKM - New antennas ... Message-ID: References: <1123076718.410689.86480@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> You couldn't be more wrong chap, I too live in France, Grenoble actually ... That's why he is such a good signal here ! In article <1123076718.410689.86480@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Rick Scott" wrote: > What a lame attempt to advertise YOUR antennas > > >X-Trace: 1123063312 news.wanadoo.fr 1227 193.250.31.195:49379 Article: 215991 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:13:23 -0500 Message-ID: <17798-42F0DF13-5@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> References: Greg Knapp wrote: "I need to feed many different antennas with open wire line and need to run the feedline from each about 200 feet from the back pasture to the shack." This is similar to the problem facing commercial shortwave stations. They usually have more distance and numbers of antennas and transmitters to serve several target areas simultaneously. The preferred solution is a feedline for each antenna. These separate lines converge on the switching location near the plant. Each transmitter is equipped with its own feedline too. These converge on the switching location too. In the "crossbar" switching arrangement, any transmitter may be connected to any antenna. Very flexible and it works well. When separate lines are too extravagant, a single line is switched at both ends between some transmitters and some antennas. You need at least as many lines as you have transmitters if all are going to operate at once and not in parallel. Most commercial stations have multiband radios but use narrowband antenna systems. This requires many more antennas than transmitters to serve many different targets in various bands required on the various paths around the clock. If you had only one direction or sense to serve, a single rhombic connected by a single line to the transmitter might do a compromised job. The rhombic will take a load at almost any frequency, but its pattern changes with frequency so its coverage of a target won`t be ideal at most frequencies. If you don`t want to walk 200 feet to switch antennas, use relays controlled from your shack. That`s what professionals do. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215992 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 10:38:31 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f0e607$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Walter Maxwell wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >>Proving that "Power in the reflected wave" is common >>usage in RF engineering. > > Jim, I'm sure you'll agree that voltage is reflected, and that current > is also reflected. Then isn't the product of voltage and current > power? I think I understand Jim's point that power is measured relative to a stationary point or plane. The Bird wattmeter is stationary in the transmission line and measures the average energy/time flowing through it. Average power is averaged over at least one complete cycle. It is hard to visualize an average power meter measurement while the meter is moving with the wave - admittedly an esoteric point and not likely to have any effect on common usage. Consider that it is the instantaneous value of voltage and current that is reflected (actually the instantaneous E-field and H-field). The RMS value of voltage and current is not what is actually reflected in reality. But again, shortcuts and common usage rule the day. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 215993 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Is it safe to suspend coax in midair? Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 10:30:08 -0500 Message-ID: <17797-42F0E300-36@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> References: <1123036547.758121.105620@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Bob Brown, KB8WWS wrote: "I have considered going underground for the run, but would have to go under a patio and over our septic system." Complicated. Do as phone and cable companies do. Use a messenger cable to uniformly support the coax along its length. No cable strain or connector separation. Take care waterproofing all joints. Best regtards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215994 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: F5VKM - New antennas ... Message-ID: References: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:02:54 GMT On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:00:34 +0100, thehustler@hotmail.com (The hustler) wrote: >All, > >I've been listening to this guy on 80/40m with his 60m high antenna, he's >a huge signal with me and indeed crashed over the top of the pileups for >the PY's on 40m the other eveningm now I see he is selling them. > >Might be worth a look if you have a small garden as it would appear it >works fine from this type of QTH. > >www.f5vkm.com > >hustler ... I'm sure a lot of antennas work well when they're 60m high -- that's about 195 feet off the ground, if my math is correct. Just the thing for that "small garden." bob k5qwg Article: 215995 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:56:25 -0500 Message-ID: <7551-42F10549-110@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> References: <42f052ac$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: "---power does not flow or move, nor is it something that can be reflected." >From the Random House American College Dictionary: Power is the ability to do or act. It is the time rate of transferring or transforming energy. It is work done or energy transferred per unit of time. The power to do or act can be moved from one location to another. A power house is an electrical generating station where some other form of energy is converted to electricity which is very flexible in application. >From the power house, the power (ability to do or act) is transported by power transmission lines to the places it is used. Since the wavelength at 60 Hz is 5 million meters, (5000 km), power transmission lines aren`t long enough to produce standing waves which are caused by reflections. Radio-frequency transmission lines are often long enough to show the effects of reflections and the standing waves produced by those reflections. Power flows in r-f lines and it is reflected at impedance discontinuities accordimg to the most knowledgeable experts. F.E. Terman is my favorite. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 215996 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Renzo" Subject: GAP & phased array Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:05:05 GMT Did someone try to realize a 2 vertical phased array for 40 & 80 meters using two Gap/Voyager? Thanks in advance! Best 73 de Renzo - IK0IZW -- "CW: let your fingers sing a song" -- Article: 215997 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: Pi network question Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 14:24:37 -0400 Message-ID: <11f22tltorv883c@corp.supernews.com> References: <1122867299.665025.44850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <42eddbcc.32020002@news.crosslink.net> <42ee8cb3.1220174@news.crosslink.net> <11etfv34338nh30@corp.supernews.com> <42f005cb$0$32200$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> one more "9" My calculator says that 3.16 sec per year (365.25 days) is an up percent of 99.99990 73 Mac N8TT - back from Perry -- J. Mc Laughlin; Michigan U.S.A. Home: JCM@Power-Net.Net "Ben Jackson" wrote in message news:slrndf0imj.30f3.ben@saturn.home.ben.com... > On 2005-08-02, Tom Ring wrote: > > > > In my current business 7 nines would mean roughly 3.16 seconds. Can you > > tell me why? > > That's how much downtime you get each year if you have 99.9999% uptime. > Of course that's *unplanned* downtime. ;-) > > -- > Ben Jackson > > http://www.ben.com/ Article: 215998 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:35:17 -0700 Message-ID: <11f23ja2to2egd9@corp.supernews.com> References: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> The last I heard, you can still buy it. But you have to order it by mail. I would assume that K6STI requires payment in U.S. funds payable through a U.S. bank. His address is: Brian Beezley, K6STI 3532 Linda Vista Dr. San Marcos, CA 92069 U.S.A. I don't know of any equivalent or better software. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Marc Delporte wrote: > Hi > > I'm looking for the software "Terrain Analysis" from K6STI or equivalent. > > I do not find any links on the web to get it ! > > Is it still actual ? Is there equivalent (or better) software ? > > Thanks a lot > > Best regards > > 73' F1GSN > > > > > > Article: 215999 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:54:08 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Walter Maxwell wrote: > On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 16:04:29 -0500, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >>Jim Kelley wrote: >> >> >>>Cecil Moore wrote: >>> >>>>You can add Walter Johnson, Simon Ramo, and John Whinnery to >>>>that list. "Power in the reflected wave" is commonly mentioned. >>> >>>Proving what, exactly? That power is "in" a reflected wave? >> >>Proving that "Power in the reflected wave" is common >>usage in RF engineering. You are not going to get the >>human race to stop using the word, "sunrise", no >>matter what you say or do. > > > Jim, I'm sure you'll agree that voltage is reflected, and that current > is also reflected. Then isn't the product of voltage and current > power? > > Walt, W2DU I hope I haven't given the impression that I would be unfamiliar with that relationship. I used it in my work practically every day of my life for many years. Here's my best answer to such a question. According to the physics that I've studied, physicists seem to be laboring under the impression that it is the electric and magnetic fields which actually propagate and interact with matter. That interaction can result in, among other things, reflection. The E&H fields manifest themselves within matter as voltages and currents, respectively. Although it is the fields which reflect, it is the resulting voltages and currents that we can most readily measure. From a practical everyday standpoint this distinction makes little or no difference. It is only when we start to describe physical processes such as energy flow that it may become necessary to consider the distinction. And yes, if you take a calculator or slide rule and multiply voltage and current, and make certain assumptions, you can find the rate at which energy is probably being transferred from one place to some other place. But some folks have argued descriptions of physical phenomena derived >from an assumption that the number displayed on the calculator physically propagates through a transmission line, physically reflects off the ends of the transmission line or other discontinuities, and physically interferes with itself or other numbers like it. So that there is no further mistaking my position, I dispute the validity of these descriptions of the behavior of physical phenomena, and some of the predictions based upon them. I do not dispute P=V*I, but thanks for asking. The wave which propagates along a transmission line can produce energy at a rate proportional to E x H, but it is not E x H which propagates along the transmission line. E propagates in one plane, and H propagates in a plane a right angles to E. When we know the characteristics of E and H (or V and I) individually, we can predict what will occur when either encounters a discontinuity. But when we multiply to two together, the resulting magnitude no longer possesses the properties of either of the multiplicands, and so no accurate predictions about interactions with discontinuities can truly be derived without making assumptions. And as we've seen, given a nebulous laundry list of assumptions, some inaccurate predictions can be derived. Your 'Transformer' diagrams come as close as any I've seen to describing how things behave in an coaxial impedance matching arrangement. I hope you include them in your 3rd Edition. I have, by the way, found similar but less detailed drawings of thin film interfaces in two different physics textbooks. I think the key to understanding them is the superposition of multiple reflections. 73, Jim AC6XG Article: 216000 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:07:41 +0100 From: thehustler@hotmail.com (The hustler) Subject: Re: F5VKM - New antennas ... Message-ID: References: <1123076718.410689.86480@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123086360.721301.225400@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> I'm English too, one of the 400,000 that currently live in France! In article <1123086360.721301.225400@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Rick Scott" wrote: > Oh and your Use of CHAP, not many Frenchmen I met use that term. But > hmm English chaps do. And Looking at the QRZ Callsign lookup of that > F5 I find > > Mike F5VKM (UK Callsigns M0AWS/G1SYT) > > Oh gee, Just happens to be English as well. > > What An AMAZING Coincidence. Article: 216001 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 12:10:19 -0700 Message-ID: References: <42f052ac$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <7551-42F10549-110@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Whatever floats your boat, Richard. If you need to think of power as an 'ability' that flows through an electrical pipe, then I think you should think of it that way. 73, Jim Richard Harrison wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > "---power does not flow or move, nor is it something that can be > reflected." > > From the Random House American College Dictionary: > Power is the ability to do or act. It is the time rate of transferring > or transforming energy. It is work done or energy transferred per unit > of time. > > The power to do or act can be moved from one location to another. A > power house is an electrical generating station where some other form of > energy is converted to electricity which is very flexible in > application. > > From the power house, the power (ability to do or act) is transported by > power transmission lines to the places it is used. > > Since the wavelength at 60 Hz is 5 million meters, (5000 km), power > transmission lines aren`t long enough to produce standing waves which > are caused by reflections. > > Radio-frequency transmission lines are often long enough to show the > effects of reflections and the standing waves produced by those > reflections. > > Power flows in r-f lines and it is reflected at impedance > discontinuities accordimg to the most knowledgeable experts. F.E. Terman > is my favorite. > > Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI > Article: 216002 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 13:30:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 11:54:08 -0700, Jim Kelley > wrote: > > >>I have, by the way, found similar >>but less detailed drawings of thin film interfaces in two different >>physics textbooks. I think the key to understanding them is the >>superposition of multiple reflections. > > > Hi Jim, > > Such coverage as you describe, in physics textbooks, are rudimentary > discussions suitable for introductory purposes. They are not the > end-all be-all nor final word on the matter. This is born out by > exhausting work being pursued by many in academia and the industry to > "completely cancel" reflections. They would not be so engaged in this > work if a simple, quarterwave, thin layer optic performed this > complete cancellation already. The fact of the matter is that by the > mechanics so described in the text books, they guarantee no totality > of cancellation. True, they offer a close hit, but this is not proof > of totality. Close is good enough for nuclear hand grenades too. > > When the energy available in the first medium, at the second > interface, cannot possibly reflect enough of it to the first > interface; then no amount of superposition of ALL reflections (and > this presumes that the second interface is fully reflecting for these > succeeding multiples, an absurd notion in its own right) can exceed > that available energy. > > Yes, this has all been said before, you've found it interesting but > not compelling; and yet no one here has offered any way to boost the > energy to completely cancel the reflection from the first interface. > > Under the circumstances already described, those reflection products > (after assuming ALL the multiple reflections have been ushered out > from behind the first interface to destructively interfere) contain: > 1800 TIMES MORE POWER THAN THE SUN! > which has been humorously relegated to zero. :-) > > Flowing, dribbling, puddling, or simply expressed in terms of candelas > per square foot per fortnight, it all leads to the same conclusion: > the cancellation is not total. Hence the subject line of > The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts > in Discussing Thin Layer Reflections > > ********* for those who cannot cope with the topic ************* > > I have a D Cell battery whose capacity is 3 W-HR, and I roll it along > the floor. > > Has power flowed? > > How much? (sorry if I offended anyone by asking for a quantitative > answer) > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard. The example you provided earlier is not any result of exhaustive research. It is not even an accurate thumbnail sketch of the phenomenon at the level of "rudimentary physics books". So I disagree with your assessment. (Perhaps you should consider having a look at the text you're characterizing first before you presume to characterize it.) But if by all that you mean to say that it's not possible to make a perfect anything, then I think that ordinarily goes without saying. So yes, you're right. There is no such thing as a lossless medium. But it is a rather simple matter to get a reasonably good match using this technique. I think you can assume that's about the degree of accuracy we're using for most of our discussions. 73, AC6XG PS I like your power flow analogy. :-) Article: 216003 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:23:41 -0500 Message-ID: I live in a two-story slab house with aluminum siding on the walls. Has anyone had any experience with mounting an external transmitting loop antenna (for 80 or 160 m) near aluminum siding? I am guessing it is not recommended, but I would be interested in any comments about this topic. Article: 216004 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:27:13 -0500 Message-ID: <9528-42F144C1-24@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: Richard Clark, KB7QHC wrote: "I have a D Cell battery whose capacity is 3 W-HR, and I roll it along the floor. Has power flowed?" Reminds me of a point made by Tom Whitaker, a two-handed blackboard scribe and celebrated E.E. Prof I had over 1/2 century ago. Tom wrote with one hand and erased with the other so he would have a clear space to write more.To drive home his definition of current, Tom spat on a piece of chalk and chunked it with vigor the length of the auditorium where it bounced harmlessly from the rear wall. What an arm! Some ball club sgould have signed him. Tom said: "That spit was charged and you`ve just seen an electric current! Your D-cell holds much charge and rolling the cell puts charge in motion, So, yes, power has flowed because you transferred the ability to do work from one site to another. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216005 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:51:03 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > Hi Jim, > > This is what I mean by no argument being put forth to dispute what has > been offered. In fact every computation offered flows from the math > offered by ANY academic text. I even name the math used, and then use > it. In fact, I have lead the way by offering every cogent formula > needed to discuss this matter. Well, to be blunt I believe you may perhaps be overestimating the significance of your contributions on this subject, Richard. > I see no dispute in the assignment of indices of reflection. I see no > dispute in the computation of reflections. I see no dispute in the > balance of energy at each interface. And I am speaking of > quantitative results, not presumptions. I've seen dispute of your numbers. Cecil had them right. Cecil is very good at getting the numbers right. I even agree with the solutions to his irradiance equations. He and I disagree only on certain details of the physical mechanism (though he seems to want to disagree with just about anything I have to say). >>But if by all that you mean to say that it's not possible to make a >>perfect anything, then I think that ordinarily goes without saying. >>There is no such thing as a lossless medium. > > > This is a non-sequitur injected for no apparent reason. Why so? Start with a presumption that it is not a non sequitur and see where that leads. I've reassembled my original statement above for your review. >>I think you can assume that's about the degree of >>accuracy we're using for most of our discussions. > > > For "Total cancellation?" If you accept that, you've spent four > years arguing for... what have you been arguing about? Have you > allowed this slack you accept in our behalf for your own positions? The relevance of the "non sequitur" stated above thereby makes itself apparent. There are several reasons why it is difficult to achieve total cancellation of reflected light at an optical surface. First - the obvious one. A quarter wave layer is only a quarter wavelength thick at one wavelength. Second - dielectric films can be lossy. Third - anti-reflection is only 100% effective at normal incidence. Fourth - it's next to impossible to make a film that has a refractive index which is the perfect geometric mean of the indices of the media at its boundaries. A thorough treatment of all the reflections at both boundaries, whereby all in-phase reflections in a given direction are summed, provides that absent the imperfections described above, total cancellation is indeed a fact. Another fact is that it's much easier to accomplish in a transmission line with monochromatic RF at HF. > However, I am used to the "debate" that proceeds along these lines > where "Totality" has been proven, accepted and it leads to nonsensical > theories like waves reflecting waves. If I were to characterize most of the discussion I've had here, I would say most of it has been spent addressing misunderstandings related to the fundamental behavior of nature. 73, Jim AC6XG Article: 216006 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 18:07:32 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Thanks for your comments, but a full-wave loop antenna is much larger than I had in mind. The ARRL Antenna Book contains a write-up about a loop antenna that is 100 feet in total length. It is built in the shape of an octagon with 3/4" copper pipe, and contains a capacitor in series with the side directly opposite the fed side. The loop is mounted with its plane vertical, and the fed side perhaps a foot off the ground so the lawn mower can go under it. The capacitor has to be tuned remotely and has to have a rather large voltage rating. The article implies the antenna has a 2:1 tuning range. An alternative one-band antenna is the DLM antenna and might be worth trying. See http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm wrote in message news:1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > John N9JG wrote: >> I live in a two-story slab house with aluminum siding on the walls. Has >> anyone had any experience with mounting an external transmitting loop >> antenna (for 80 or 160 m) near aluminum siding? I am guessing it is not >> recommended, but I would be interested in any comments about this topic. > > Hi John, Since it is not recommended to mount a loop antenna or any > other kind, near aluminum siding, I doubt many here have done so. May > not get comments about doing the undesirable. > On the other hand, a 160m full wave loop will be so large in > comparison to the small section that is in proximity to the aluminum > siding, you may not be able to tell much difference whether the siding > is there or not. Same thing with a full wave 80m loop. I would go for > it. > Gary N4AST > Article: 216007 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 18:21:05 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > But some folks have argued descriptions of physical phenomena derived > from an assumption that the number displayed on the calculator > physically propagates through a transmission line, physically reflects > off the ends of the transmission line or other discontinuities, and > physically interferes with itself or other numbers like it. If you think that's what I said, you are suffering from delusions. *All* of my power components exist at a stationary point or plane. The two components associated with wave cancellation exist at the match *point*. "Reflected power" is the reflected energy flow per unit time measured at a point by a stationary directional wattmeter. "Forward power" is the forward energy flow per unit time measured at a point by a stationary directional wattmeter. Power components do not interfere. It is the E-fields and H-fields that do the interferring. However, given the interference of two coherent waves traveling in the same direction, the following power equation is valid. Ptotal = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(phi) where phi is the phase angle between the two E-fields. The last term in that equation is well known as the "interference term". If cos(phi) is negative, the interference is destructive. If cos(phi) is positive, the interference is constructive. If an additional source of energy is not present at the interference point, the destructive interference must equal the constructive interference to satisfy the conservation of energy principle. Like I said before, the only disagreement that we have left is whether dt is zero or infinitessimally small. Your straw men are just straw men designed to mislead the uninitiated. Note that Richard Clark is NOT using the above power equation and is instead trying to superpose powers which is an invalid practice. That's why he's calculating the wrong values. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216008 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 'Doc Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:27:24 GMT John, For what it's worth (not much), I used to run a 1/2 wave dipole over a metal roof. It worked. The input impedance was reasonable, certainly not the best, but reasonable. Your loop wuold show some directionality, I would think, but that may/may not be 'bad', and the input impedance ought to be adjustable with the capacitor, sort of, maybe. Also ran a full wave 80 meter loop around a building with aluminum siding. Had pretty fair clearance all around, so didn't really affect things much (I'm sure it did, but it worked so who cared?). Give it a shot, see what happens, then tell us! 'Doc Article: 216009 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:07:40 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> But some folks have argued descriptions of physical phenomena derived >> from an assumption that the number displayed on the calculator >> physically propagates through a transmission line, physically reflects >> off the ends of the transmission line or other discontinuities, and >> physically interferes with itself or other numbers like it. > > > If you think that's what I said, you are suffering from delusions. Perhaps I was deluded by all your arguing about it. :-) > Power components do not interfere. Glad you finally agree. > It is the E-fields and H-fields > that do the interferring. Is there an echo in here? > However, given the interference of two > coherent waves traveling in the same direction, the following > power equation is valid. > > Ptotal = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(phi) > where phi is the phase angle between the two E-fields. Right. That's simply because P is proportional to E^2. > The last > term in that equation is well known as the "interference term". Basically, yes. Two times the product of the two fields is the interference term. The product of two things which don't interfere is probably inappropriately referred to as an interference term. > If cos(phi) is negative, the interference is destructive. If > cos(phi) is positive, the interference is constructive. If an > additional source of energy is not present at the interference > point, the destructive interference must equal the constructive > interference to satisfy the conservation of energy principle. ....and by virtue of the fact that 2*sqrt(P1*P2) = 2*sqrt(P1*P2). ;-) > Like I said before, the only disagreement that we have left is > whether dt is zero or infinitessimally small. As I recall, my disagreement with you was about your claim that "interference causes energy to reverse direction and go the other way". That's what it's always been about, Cecil. Do you still insist that's what happens? If not, then we're in agreement - unless you disagree, of course. > Your straw men > are just straw men designed to mislead the uninitiated. Actually the "straw men" seem to have brought you around substantially to the correct point of view. And I really don't think anyone who's been paying attention is misled about you, Cecil. :-) 73, ac6xg Article: 216010 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 19:42:22 -0500 Message-ID: References: Thanks for your encouragement. "'Doc" wrote in message news:wpcIe.754$646.584@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net... > John, > For what it's worth (not much), I used to run a 1/2 wave dipole > over a metal roof. It worked. The input impedance was reasonable, > certainly not the best, but reasonable. Your loop wuold show some > directionality, I would think, but that may/may not be 'bad', and > the input impedance ought to be adjustable with the capacitor, sort > of, maybe. Also ran a full wave 80 meter loop around a building > with aluminum siding. Had pretty fair clearance all around, so didn't > really affect things much (I'm sure it did, but it worked so who > cared?). Give it a shot, see what happens, then tell us! > 'Doc Article: 216011 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:00:51 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Richard, Try the link. See if it reminds you of anything. :-) jk http://www.montypythonpages.com/index1.htm Richard Clark wrote: > On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 15:51:03 -0700, Jim Kelley > wrote: > > >>>This is what I mean by no argument being put forth to dispute what has >>>been offered. In fact every computation offered flows from the math >>>offered by ANY academic text. I even name the math used, and then use >>>it. In fact, I have lead the way by offering every cogent formula >>>needed to discuss this matter. >> >>Well, to be blunt I believe you may perhaps be overestimating the >>significance of your contributions on this subject, Richard. > > > Hi Jim, > > Well, being blunt offers no more argument than previous statements of > prejudice. And the point of the matter is I've observed no one here > offer any math in advance of my presentation. If this is > overestimating any significance, it certainly puts everything else in > the shade. > > >>>I see no dispute in the assignment of indices of reflection. I see no >>>dispute in the computation of reflections. I see no dispute in the >>>balance of energy at each interface. And I am speaking of >>>quantitative results, not presumptions. >> >>I've seen dispute of your numbers. Cecil had them right. > > > And yet and all, you have nothing at your fingertips: > > A dispute over indices of refraction? Nada. > > A dispute over reflection? Nada. > > A dispute over balanced energy equations? Nada. > > All rather first principles and central to the discussion. It takes > very little effort to unscramble a half page of text if I've so messed > it up; but I am content to see you are aligned with Cecil's argument > and to watch where that leads. :-) > > It could lead to another fruitful 4 years of > > debate? > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 216012 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:17:04 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: F5VKM - New antennas ... References: <1123076718.410689.86480@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123086360.721301.225400@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42f17aa0$0$22201$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> The hustler wrote: > I'm English too, one of the 400,000 that currently live in France! > My sympathies. If you need contributions for the trip home, please contact me. tom K0TAR Article: 216013 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bob" References: <6792-42EF284C-1106@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net> Subject: Re: 40 meter pirate radio,1710.am qrp need ant ideas. Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:36:15 -0400 "drwxr-xr-x" wrote in message news:slrndev7pr.27st.bit-bucket@shell.config.com... > On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 03:01:16 -0500, Pirate Radio wrote: >> need ant for my station thinking about a very long wire ant i have lots >> of acres so it dont matter listen out for my station playing all kinds >> of music no black crap only pure classic rock and southern rock ozzie >> stuff like that and preaching from rev moore where i go to church i >> almost off my meds the radio helps me out tv freaks me out only will >> will run qrp about 5 watts or less maybe once a month i will broadcast >> anyway good luck on dxing hope u here me funny farm radio > > Isn't it frightening when the hopelessly illiterate are found playing > with sophisticated technology? Awww.... Come on. Maybe he can get one of the Opie and Anthony golden tickets. http://tinyurl.com/dz2bm Article: 216014 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bob" References: <1122054980.698869.195170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: APRS and voice - mobile configuration Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 22:39:51 -0400 I run FT 8800 on a stick roughly over the front seats, and a 30 watt maxtrac for APRS on a stick about a foot from the back end of the roof of my Town and Country. I get completely desensed when the maxtrac transmits, but it hasn't hurt the Yaesu yet. "Steve Nosko" wrote in message news:dc6btr$bt1$1@engnntp2.cig.mot.com... > Many do this and don't worry about it. I have not heard of anyone hurting > a > receiver. I would, however, keep the antennas as far apart as possible. > > One thing. The APRS transmitter should be kept as low as possible and > still > get the desired results. > > You can also sign up to the tapr list and query the Gurus. > https://lists.tapr.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > > > wrote in message > news:1122054980.698869.195170@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... >> There are times when Google search is great, and others where it fails >> me. This is one of those situations. >> >> I'm trying to find out what people recommend for handling both APRS and >> voice radios in the same vehicle. I want to have two separate rigs, >> one dedicated to APRS, the other for normal voice comms. I'm concerned >> about receiver overload and frying one of the rigs when the other is >> transmitting at high power. >> >> The rigs are modern (Yeasu FT-2800 for APRS and Yeasu FT-8900 for >> voice). Would the intermod rejection of these two rigs protect them? >> I'd rather not set up a cavity or other expensive filters. >> >> How do others have this setup in place? >> >> 73, >> patrick >> > > Article: 216015 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: How Handle Multiple Open Wire Lines? Message-ID: References: Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 02:42:31 GMT On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 16:56:25 -0700, "greg knapp 5" wrote: This may or may not help, but FWIW, MFJ makes an (indoor) antenna switch that handles six balanced feedlines. May help if you run several lines to your house... bob k5qwg Article: 216016 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 21:46:01 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f1827b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Perhaps I was deluded by all your arguing about it. :-) I'm saying, "I agree" and you are saying, "No, you don't" so who's doing the arguing? Here's an example from a posting way back in 2004: ************************************************************************* Jim Kelley wrote: > The crux of > the phenomenological problem is that power does not flow or move, nor is > it something that is reflected. But energy does flow and move and is something that can be reflected. ************************************************************************** In that posting, I am agreeing with you but your delusions make you assert to this very day that I was arguing with you. >> Power components do not interfere. > > Glad you finally agree. I have never said otherwise. I often identify the wave component by the power figure, but it is *only a name* used to identify an EM wave. When I say, "The 50 watt wave interferes with the 25 watt wave", I'm not saying that 50 watts interferes with 25 watts. It's the *waves* that interfere, not the watts! Why is that so hard for you to comprehend? >> Ptotal = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(phi) >> where phi is the phase angle between the two E-fields. > > Right. That's simply because P is proportional to E^2. I'm glad you finally agree after arguing against it for years. (See, two can play your junevile game.) >> The last >> term in that equation is well known as the "interference term". > > Basically, yes. Two times the product of the two fields is the > interference term. The interference is in the units of power, e.g. joules/sec. It is two times the square root of the product of the two powers associated with the two interferring waves. It is the result of superposition of two coherent EM waves. As I said before, it is the waves that interfere, NOT the powers. >The product of two things which don't interfere is > probably inappropriately referred to as an interference term. Your argument is with Hecht and other scientists, physicists, and engineers who use that convention, not just with me. You would have made a good lawyer since you seem to object to virtually everything. :-) >> Like I said before, the only disagreement that we have left is >> whether dt is zero or infinitessimally small. > > As I recall, my disagreement with you was about your claim that > "interference causes energy to reverse direction and go the other way". > That's what it's always been about, Cecil. Destructive interference in one direction in a transmission line results in constructive interference in the opposite direction. Anything else would violate the conservation of energy principle. Our argument is whether destructive interference has time to happen, i.e. how many calculus dt's can dance on the head of a pin. :-) Whether interference can cause energy to reverse direction or not depends upon whether dt equals zero as you imply, or whether dt equals an infinitessimally small amount of time as I say. That's what it's always been about, Jim. > Do you still insist that's what happens? If not, then we're in > agreement - unless you disagree, of course. If dt is an infinitessimally small amount of time, then that is exactly what happens. If dt equals zero, then it doesn't have time to happen. Your argument is that it doesn't have time to happen because "there is no before and after". (a quote from your email). I say there is a before, now, and after divided into infinitessimally small dt's of time and when added together, actually perform the function of representing the flow of time. So are you going to assert that time also doesn't flow? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216017 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:12:03 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > When the energy available in the first medium, at the second > interface, cannot possibly reflect enough of it to the first > interface; then no amount of superposition of ALL reflections (and > this presumes that the second interface is fully reflecting for these > succeeding multiples, an absurd notion in its own right) can exceed > that available energy. > > Yes, this has all been said before, you've found it interesting but > not compelling; and yet no one here has offered any way to boost the > energy to completely cancel the reflection from the first interface. I have multiple times, Richard. When a 111.1mW wave interferes with an 87.78mW wave, the result is *NOT* a 23.32mW wave. It's the waves that interfere, not the power. 111.1mW - 87.78mW = 23.32mW is superposition of powers and is invalid! Instead of superposing powers, the equation you need to use is the power interference equation: Pref1 = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(180) Pref1 = 111.1mW + 87.78mW + 2*sqrt(111.1*87.78)(-1) Pref1 = 198.88mW - 197.51mW = 1.37mW Thus after only one internal reflection cycle, the reflected power, Pref1, is reduced to 1.37mW, not to 23.32mW as you have asserted. If you will use a transmission line example and deal with voltages, you will be able to diagnose your mistake. Voltages interfere, watts don't. Most RF engineers simply do not understand how to deal with powers associated with component wave interference. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216018 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 03:11:00 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> >From your description the antenna is a 100-foot-perimeter magloop for 160 and 80 meters. With a 3/4" diameter conductor it will do fine. Provided it is not facing and very near to the side of the house it should tune up and work OK. Have the plane of the loop at right-angles to the siding, NOT parallel to it. If you can't manage this then don't bother erecting it. I would not like to see the edge of the loop any nearer to the siding than 1/4 or 1/5 of its diameter. (Apparently it is intended to work within a few feet of the ground.) Aluminium is a good conductor, nearly as good as copper. Negligible loss will be induced in it. Most loss will be in the ground by virtue of its very low height. The close proximity to ground will also cause unoticeable detuning. The presence of the siding will slightly detune the antenna but you will not notice the difference because there is no way to make a comparison. But if there is an intermittent contact between the siding and other walls or metal roof of the house you can expect trouble. Magloops are VERY sharply tuned! The radiation pattern may be considerably different from normal. But again, you will not be aware of it. The broad lobe in one direction in the plane of the loop may be stronger at the expense of the opposite direction towards the house. I have myself run a near-to-ground 160-meter magloop very near to the brick wall of the house and experienced the detuning which I assume was due to being adjacent to internal domestic plumbing and house wiring. The effect disappears when the loop is half its diameter away >from foreign conductors. The performance of your proposed loop in normal surroundings can be investigated by easy-to-use program MAGLOOP4 which can be downloaded >from the website below. ---- ........................................................... Regards from Reg, G4FGQ For Free Radio Design Software go to http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp ........................................................... ========================================== "John N9JG" wrote in message news:dcrini$cf2$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > Thanks for your comments, but a full-wave loop antenna is much larger than I > had in mind. The ARRL Antenna Book contains a write-up about a loop antenna > that is 100 feet in total length. It is built in the shape of an octagon > with 3/4" copper pipe, and contains a capacitor in series with the side > directly opposite the fed side. The loop is mounted with its plane vertical, > and the fed side perhaps a foot off the ground so the lawn mower can go > under it. The capacitor has to be tuned remotely and has to have a rather > large voltage rating. The article implies the antenna has a 2:1 tuning > range. > > An alternative one-band antenna is the DLM antenna and might be worth > trying. See > http://www.uri.edu/news/vincent/boxboro_files/frame.htm > > wrote in message > news:1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > > John N9JG wrote: > >> I live in a two-story slab house with aluminum siding on the walls. Has > >> anyone had any experience with mounting an external transmitting loop > >> antenna (for 80 or 160 m) near aluminum siding? I am guessing it is not > >> recommended, but I would be interested in any comments about this topic. > > > > Hi John, Since it is not recommended to mount a loop antenna or any > > other kind, near aluminum siding, I doubt many here have done so. May > > not get comments about doing the undesirable. > > On the other hand, a 160m full wave loop will be so large in > > comparison to the small section that is in proximity to the aluminum > > siding, you may not be able to tell much difference whether the siding > > is there or not. Same thing with a full wave 80m loop. I would go for > > it. > > Gary N4AST > > > > Article: 216019 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:14:28 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f18927$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > I see no dispute in the balance of energy at each interface. Conclusion: You have to be blind. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216020 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:33:17 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f18d8f$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > I've seen dispute of your numbers. Cecil had them right. Cecil is very > good at getting the numbers right. I even agree with the solutions to > his irradiance equations. He and I disagree only on certain details of > the physical mechanism (though he seems to want to disagree with just > about anything I have to say). I say, "I agree with you". You say, "No, you don't". So exactly who is being disagreeable? > If I were to characterize most of the discussion I've had here, I would > say most of it has been spent addressing misunderstandings related to > the fundamental behavior of nature. Nope, most misunderstandings are semantic. Most of our arguments have been because you misunderstood what I was trying to say and that unfortunate condition continues. You don't seem to possess the normal human capacity to say, "Sorry, I misunderstood". (I wonder if God is capable of misunderstanding?) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216021 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:35:17 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f18e07$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > A dispute over balanced energy equations? Nada. On the contrary - a gigantic dispute over your invalid attempts to superpose powers. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216022 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:44:54 -0400 Message-ID: Cecil, check this months QST (August 2005) Page 52 - figure 5. It specifically shows that reflections can totally cancel creating black. "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Richard Clark wrote: > > When the energy available in the first medium, at the second > > interface, cannot possibly reflect enough of it to the first > > interface; then no amount of superposition of ALL reflections (and > > this presumes that the second interface is fully reflecting for these > > succeeding multiples, an absurd notion in its own right) can exceed > > that available energy. > > > > Yes, this has all been said before, you've found it interesting but > > not compelling; and yet no one here has offered any way to boost the > > energy to completely cancel the reflection from the first interface. > > I have multiple times, Richard. When a 111.1mW wave interferes with > an 87.78mW wave, the result is *NOT* a 23.32mW wave. It's the waves > that interfere, not the power. > > 111.1mW - 87.78mW = 23.32mW is superposition of powers and is invalid! > > Instead of superposing powers, the equation you need to use is the > power interference equation: > > Pref1 = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(180) > > Pref1 = 111.1mW + 87.78mW + 2*sqrt(111.1*87.78)(-1) > > Pref1 = 198.88mW - 197.51mW = 1.37mW > > Thus after only one internal reflection cycle, the reflected power, > Pref1, is reduced to 1.37mW, not to 23.32mW as you have asserted. > > If you will use a transmission line example and deal with voltages, you > will be able to diagnose your mistake. Voltages interfere, watts don't. > Most RF engineers simply do not understand how to deal with powers > associated with component wave interference. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216023 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <4d83f1tq1m3nf4hf47jb2nenmspf0d8s01@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:25:56 -0400 Message-ID: Good lord Richard, did you check the reference? It was a friggen joke! "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:4d83f1tq1m3nf4hf47jb2nenmspf0d8s01@4ax.com... > On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 23:44:54 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" > wrote: > > >Cecil, check this months QST (August 2005) Page 52 - figure 5. It > >specifically shows that reflections can totally cancel creating black. > > > > > >"Cecil Moore" wrote in message > >news:42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > >> Pref1 = 198.88mW - 197.51mW = 1.37mW > > Hi Fred, > > You've missed the point entirely, the equation above already consigns > 1.37mW to total darkness. Or any other non-zero result is reduced to > zero for rhetoric's sake (I will skip the love fest of agreement that > did not blossom). > > Odd how far this got with everyone presuming that these powers, > energies, or candelas per square foot per fortnight were visible in > the first place (perhaps to some breed of Ubermensch). They happen to > inhabit the deep infra-red. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 216024 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:08:49 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <4d83f1tq1m3nf4hf47jb2nenmspf0d8s01@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f20664$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: >>"Cecil Moore" wrote in message >>>Pref1 = 198.88mW - 197.51mW = 1.37mW > > You've missed the point entirely, the equation above already consigns > 1.37mW to total darkness. No, it doesn't. 1.37mW is the total reflection AFTER ONLY ONE INTERNAL REFLECTION DURING THE TRANSIENT STATE. The rest of the reflection is canceled by the subsequent reflections. The steady-state equation is: Pref1 = P1 + P2 + 2*sqrt(P1*P2)cos(180) Pref1 = 111.1 + 111.1 - 2*sqrt(111.1*111.1) = ZERO P1 = Pfor1*rho^2 = 1000mW*0.1111 = 111.1mW P2 = Pref2*(1-rho^2) = 125*0.8889 = 111.1mW Reflections are completely canceled during steady-state!!! YOU missed the point entirely. I was merely pointing out the mistake you made when you got 23.32mW after the first reflection instead of the correct 1.37mW. The interference during the transient state is not total. The interference during steady-state is total. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216025 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 07:13:14 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Reality Compared to Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: Message-ID: <42f2076c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Well, given the tremendous correspondence that attended the other > threads, dare I pause to offer something from the realm of the real? How can anyone trust you if you don't correct your earlier catastrophic errors before offering something new? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216026 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:05:40 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> If you think that's what I said, you are suffering from delusions. > > Perhaps I was deluded by all your arguing about it. :-) One day God and St. Peter were having an argument. Suddenly, God realized that St. Peter was right and He was wrong. God's subsequent logic went something like this: I am God. I am omniscient. I am incapable of being wrong. Since I now know the correct answer, I must have known it all along. Since St. Peter was previously arguing with me, St. Peter must have been wrong all along. Now replace "God" in the above with "Jim Kelley" and you will get a picture of what has been happening with our postings. To the best of my knowledge, the only argument we have left is whether there is enough time for wave cancellation to actually take place. We agree on virtually everything else technical. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216027 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 08:16:10 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <4d83f1tq1m3nf4hf47jb2nenmspf0d8s01@4ax.com> Message-ID: <42f2162c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Fred W4JLE wrote: > Good lord Richard, did you check the reference? It was a friggen joke! I got up from my computer, walked down the hall, dug through a pile of magazines in the living room, and found your reference. I turned to it and got a good chuckle from it. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216028 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allodoxaphobia Subject: Re: Is it safe to suspend coax in midair? Date: 4 Aug 2005 14:31:58 GMT Message-ID: References: <1123036547.758121.105620@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123108206.901874.184540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123123755.744537.151630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 3 Aug 2005 19:49:15 -0700, Rob Brown wrote: > I had thought about the problems with lightning. I purchased the > version of the rcs8v with lightning protection for each of the antennas > connected to it. I will also have additional lightning protection > before the coax enters the building. Hopefully my station won't end up > being the best path to ground. > Thanks for the responses, > Rob Brown > kb8wws Sloppy Google posters posting without any quoted material make for infuriating ng reading as it is. But, have 2 or more Google posters running on as if this is a chat room is off the scale. http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/posting_style.html#summarize http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/unice.htm#quote Jonesy Article: 216029 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:08:49 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> I appreciate your comments very much; clearly you have had a lot of experience with antennas. There was one question in my mind about aluminum siding in contrast to plain aluminum; it is my impression that aluminum siding is anodized, and anodized aluminum is an insulator. If my impression is correct, would that make any difference in the interaction between a loop and the siding? "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dcs104$ebr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > > Aluminium is a good conductor, nearly as good as copper. Negligible > loss will be induced in it. Most loss will be in the ground by virtue > of its very low height. The close proximity to ground will also cause > unoticeable detuning. > Article: 216030 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:49:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Only the surface anodizing is an insulator. Radio frequency-wise, it may just as well not be there leaving the high conductivity aluminium siding to behave as if the anodizing didn't exist. If the siding was covered with a 3" layer of plastic it still wouldn't make any difference. ---- Reg, G4FGQ ================================= "John N9JG" wrote in message news:dcteig$9sl$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... > I appreciate your comments very much; clearly you have had a lot of > experience with antennas. There was one question in my mind about aluminum > siding in contrast to plain aluminum; it is my impression that aluminum > siding is anodized, and anodized aluminum is an insulator. If my impression > is correct, would that make any difference in the interaction between a loop > and the siding? > > "Reg Edwards" wrote in message > news:dcs104$ebr$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > > > > Aluminium is a good conductor, nearly as good as copper. Negligible > > loss will be induced in it. Most loss will be in the ground by virtue > > of its very low height. The close proximity to ground will also cause > > unoticeable detuning. > > > > Article: 216031 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 09:50:45 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > > To the best of my knowledge, the only argument we have left > is whether there is enough time for wave cancellation to > actually take place. You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do need to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in phase, there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the waves are prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then disappear. 73, AC6XG Article: 216032 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Reality Compared to Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 11:51:07 -0500 Message-ID: <7551-42F2477B-223@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> References: Richard Clark wrote: "Well, given the tremendous correspondence that attended the other threads, dare I pause to offer something from the realm of the real?" If you don`t want an EM reflection in space, the possible reflecting object must be indistinguishable from space. It must have a resistive characteristic impedance of 377 ohms. 377 ohms per square material spaced 1/4-wave from a reflective surface for the purpose of completely absorbing a normally incident wave was invented by Stanfield Salisbury at the Harvard Radio Research Laboratory during WW-2, according to the 3rd edition of Kraus` "Antennas" on page 909, attenuation is at least 20 dB for the reflection and the bandwidth is 1.3 to 1. Kraus gives a transmission line equivalent diagram on page 910. Kraus derives the 377 ohms of free space on page 131. The reflecting surface does not need to be zero or infinity ohms. The exposed surface must be transformed to 377 ohms from whatever the underlaying surface is. The 377-ohm carbin cloth shown by Kraus is named Salisbury screen for its inventor. It is placed 1/4-wavelength from the reflective surface. The small amount of energy penetrating the screen undergoes 180-degrees of delay in makind a round trip to the reflective surface and back to the carbon screen. It undergoes an additional 180-degrees of delay in peflection. The 360-degree total puts the reflected energy back in-phase with the penetrating energy. This makes a high impedance. A high impedance in parallel with 377 ohms leaves the 377 ohms unchanged. It continues to match the incident energy and continues to take a bite out of the reflected energy between the two surfaces. Stealth aircraft, antenna laboratory. or non-reflective glass must look like 377 ohms. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216033 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f1827b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> Perhaps I was deluded by all your arguing about it. :-) > > > I'm saying, "I agree" A landmark in r.r.a.a history ladies and gentlemen. Cecil Moore says he agrees with Jim Kelley. Let me wipe a tear from my eye and cherish this moment. Of course "I agree" was in quotation marks and the agreement lasted just long enough for him to type those four words. He then continued arguing and badgering his hapless correspondent. :-( ac6xg Article: 216034 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: clvrmnky Subject: Re: Is it safe to suspend coax in midair? References: <1123036547.758121.105620@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123108206.901874.184540@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123123755.744537.151630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1123171461.608629.235250@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 13:24:04 -0400 On 04/08/2005 12:04 PM, Rob Brown wrote: > On 04/08/2005 10:31 AM, Allodoxaphobia wrote: >> "Sloppy Google posters posting without any quoted material make for >> infuriating ng reading as it is. But, have 2 or more Google posters >> running on as if this is a chat room is off the scale." >> > I'm so sorry that I confused you. I'll go flog myself with birtch > branches and pray until a sign from the gods of the holy news group > tell me I'm forgiven. > Thanks for the usefull information to my original posting, No birch flogging necessary! He/she is right, though. This is a public forum, and it helps if the thread of conversation is succinct, but complete. Even if "Fear of Opinions" (is the mere presence of such a userID contrary to USENET?) didn't exactly give you any useful information, the main complaint might be that your public thread did not offer much more, simply because of the format. For what it's worth, I was actually interested in the original post, but was not able to follow the thread without difficulty. Once could think of this in a different way: English speakers have many ad hoc rules they adhere to when conversing with other English speakers. There are many shared notions of communication that are outside of official grammar that we stick to to maximize understanding. Written communication is no different, except that specific situations like USENET may require a closer set of specific ad hoc rulesets. Things like bottom posting and obvious, succinct quoting just help everything work better. Well, it helps in cases where the participants are not spoiling for a fight. TTYL. -- jdv "Standards are wonderful. Everyone should have them." Article: 216035 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 10:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1ni4f11rsrekc3jrk587ie4bubqiclkkvd@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > > Celebrating your legacy I see. If you say so. I'd like to know what it is that you are doing? ac6xg Article: 216036 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Aluminum siding & proximity to loop antenna Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 13:56:21 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1123108919.897441.9310@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Excellent reasoning - I guess I should have thought about how enameled copper wire makes an excellent radiator. "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:dctgu3$9it$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Only the surface anodizing is an insulator. Radio frequency-wise, it > may just as well not be there leaving the high conductivity aluminium > siding to behave as if the anodizing didn't exist. > > If the siding was covered with a 3" layer of plastic it still wouldn't > make any difference. > ---- > Reg, G4FGQ > > ================================= > Article: 216037 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:38:56 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the > reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do need > to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in phase, > there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the waves are > prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then disappear. If they don't reflect first and then disappear, they don't exist at all. But we know that reflected waves indeed exist and through deduction can see how they must exist or else cause-and-effect is violated. So your assertion that they never existed in the first place is riddled with contradictions that I am unable to resolve. So I ask again for the umteenth time. Given the rearward-traveling reflected wave from the mismatched load encountering the match point, exactly what turns that energy and momentum around and causes it to flow back toward the load in the opposite direction? If not wave cancellation, then what? You simply cannot have it both ways. If the canceled waves don't exist before they are cancel, they never existed at all and therefore wave cancellation cannot exist at all. What you propose is clearly a violation of cause-and-effect. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216038 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 14:25:36 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Hey Cecil, The superposition of waves which are equal in amplitude and out of phase equals zero at any time t. There is no time t in the steady state when reflected waves to the left of the discontinuity can exist. The whole point of the exercise is to prevent reflections. You're proposing that the reflection is first allowed, and then it gets cancelled, but not really cuz then it has to turn around somehow and go back the other way. Let it drop man. ac6xg Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> You mean that bit about how you think the waves first move in the >> reflected direction a little tiny bit and THEN cancel? Yes, you do >> need to rethink that. If they're equal in amplitude and opposite in >> phase, there's cancellation - at any value of t. In other words, the >> waves are prevented from reflecting. They don't reflect first, then >> disappear. > > > If they don't reflect first and then disappear, they don't exist > at all. But we know that reflected waves indeed exist and through > deduction can see how they must exist or else cause-and-effect is > violated. So your assertion that they never existed in the first > place is riddled with contradictions that I am unable to resolve. > > So I ask again for the umteenth time. Given the rearward-traveling > reflected wave from the mismatched load encountering the match point, > exactly what turns that energy and momentum around and causes it to > flow back toward the load in the opposite direction? If not wave > cancellation, then what? > > You simply cannot have it both ways. If the canceled waves don't > exist before they are cancel, they never existed at all and > therefore wave cancellation cannot exist at all. What you propose > is clearly a violation of cause-and-effect. Article: 216039 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:27:36 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > The superposition of waves which are equal in amplitude and out of phase > equals zero at any time t. There is no time t in the steady state when > reflected waves to the left of the discontinuity can exist. I agree and have never said they could. However, they do exist *at* the impedance discontinuity, the point at which they are canceled. To say the terms in the S-parameter equations don't ever exist in the first place is ridiculous. That throws the entire S-parameter analysis out the window. > The whole > point of the exercise is to prevent reflections. You're proposing that > the reflection is first allowed, and then it gets cancelled, but not > really cuz then it has to turn around somehow and go back the other way. It is a no-brainer to know that all energy heads toward the load because everything heads toward the load at the match point in a matched system. Reflections are prevented by the cancellation of two reflected waves. If those two reflected waves never exist, as you assert, how the heck can they engage in wave cancellation? You are obviously violating the rules of cause and effect. It is my understanding that can only happen at the quantum level in physics. So you are in violation of the conventional laws of physics. Here's the question that you have avoided like the plague and refuse to answer. Until you answer this question, your postings are simply gut feelings. Given the reflected energy wave from a mismatched load barreling toward the source at the speed of light, what phenomenon of physics causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216040 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 15:36:37 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Given the reflected energy wave from a mismatched load barreling > toward the source at the speed of light, what phenomenon of physics > causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction? The only way electronmagnetic energy can reverse direction is for it to reflect. Article: 216041 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 17:55:22 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Given the reflected energy wave from a mismatched load barreling >> toward the source at the speed of light, what phenomenon of physics >> causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction? > > The only way electronmagnetic energy can reverse direction is for it to > reflect. Exactly! So what does cause the reflection of reflected energy at the match point? We know it happens and you have given us no clue as to why it happens. When given a choice of one explaination provided by me Vs no explaination provided by you, which should the lurkers choose? Is it better to be ignorant than to be wrong? Not in my book. I learn something when I'm wrong. I am not about to settle for ignorance. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216042 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:08:14 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> Given the reflected energy wave from a mismatched load barreling >>> toward the source at the speed of light, what phenomenon of physics >>> causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction? >> >> >> The only way electronmagnetic energy can reverse direction is for it >> to reflect. > > > Exactly! So what does cause the reflection of reflected energy > at the match point? We know it happens and you have given us > no clue as to why it happens. I assumed you knew. Reflection is caused when a wave encounters a change in media of some kind. > When given a choice of one > explaination provided by me Vs no explaination provided by > you, which should the lurkers choose? Is it better to be > ignorant than to be wrong? Not in my book. I learn something > when I'm wrong. I am not about to settle for ignorance. Even at the cost of making an enormous ass out of yourself in the process. How noble. ac6xg Article: 216043 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Hal Rosser" References: <11evhrske04g81f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions? Message-ID: <7qxIe.24291$Mo.9919@bignews5.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 19:22:59 -0400 See there - stick with us hams - we are a bunch of cheap so-and so's - We would have saved you $300 right off the bat. Duct tape and bailing wire are big moneysavers. :-) "Ham op" wrote in message news:FbWdnUZ_z8yxDm_fRVn-3g@comcast.com... > Most likely his feet are more secure than ski boots. Serious riders use > cleats and clamps for the feet. If they crash the bike stays with them > until they kick out. > > My pedals, cleats and shoes cost $300. No need for tape!! :-) > > Boy, you guys are teaching me a lesson! I though Ham Radio was/is > expensive, but, serious cycling is almost as expensive. > > Hal Rosser wrote: > > > OR - tape your feet and hands to the bike so it will stay with you. > > > > "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message > > news:11evhrske04g81f@corp.supernews.com... > > > >>I suggest filing the bumps off a BNC female. Without them, the connector > >>halves should fit snugly enough to stay together unless you tug on it. > >>You could use a little tape, a weak rubber band, or something similar to > >>hold it together a little more firmly while riding but which would break > >>away fairly easily. > >> > >>If you try to use an RCA plug, the connections to it -- where you have > >>to split to coax conductors apart -- will cause a much greater impedance > >>bump than the connector itself. Since your communications seem to be > >>short range, you should be able to get by with a pretty bad impedance > >>bump, though. It would probably have the least effect if it's close to > >>the rig rather than at the antenna end of the coax. > >> > >>Roy Lewallen, W7EL > >> > >>Ken Bessler wrote: > >> > >>>I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > >>>idea: > >>> > >>>I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > >>>race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > >>>deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > >>> > >>>Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > >>>my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > >>>connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > >>>will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > >>>HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > >>>need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > >>>apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > >>>50 ohm RG-58 cable. > >>> > >>>The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > >>>connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > >>> > >>>Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. > >>> > >>>-- > >>> Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX > >>> Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 > >>> Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > Article: 216044 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Nedlar Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 00:32:38 +0100 Message-ID: <8c95f1h8b0rp5u1p204pueutftnq7rnnjg@4ax.com> References: <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:44:46 +0100, Spike wrote: > >Top-posting also encorages the lazy or incompetent to avoid properly >trimming their posts. What will encorage (sic) the lazy and incompetent to check their spelling? Article: 216045 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Suggestions? Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:07:30 -0400 Message-ID: Yep, you folks spend a fortune to get a bike 10 pounds lighter, then carry around a 20 pound chain to keep people from stealing it! Every other sport takes place on a field designed for the sport. You guys for the most part ride on the highways creating a hazard. "Ham op" wrote in message news:FMidnVH7w7PRD2_fRVn-gQ@comcast.com... > It's obvious that Fred doesn't ride. My bike costs more than many HF > rigs !!! > > BTW, in a crash, the BNC should break apart and have the coax tear out. > Solution, carry a cell phone and leave the radio at the shack! > > I carry a 2/440 HT. > > + + + > > Fred W4JLE wrote: > > I told Lance, and now I will tell you, if you get in my way in your little > > faggoty outfits and goofy helmets, I will run your ass over. Don't worry, I > > will call 911 and let them know where to pick up your traffic blocking body. > > > > > > "Ken Bessler" wrote in message > > news:QrPHe.35144$Eo.25151@fed1read04... > > > >>I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following > >>idea: > >> > >>I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my > >>race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the > >>deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. > >> > >>Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on > >>my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic > >>connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) > >>will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my > >>HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I > >>need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide > >>apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for > >>50 ohm RG-58 cable. > >> > >>The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA > >>connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? > >> > >>Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. > >> > >>-- > >> Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX > >> Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 > >> Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 > >> > >> > > > > > > > Article: 216046 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:10:40 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Exactly! So what does cause the reflection of reflected energy >> at the match point? We know it happens and you have given us >> no clue as to why it happens. > > I assumed you knew. Reflection is caused when a wave encounters a > change in media of some kind. What I am asserting and you haven't even come close to disproving is that wave cancellation of RF waves can cause reflections in exactly the same way as wave cancellation of light waves has been proven to cause reflections. What is it about the two following two technical reference quotes that you don't understand? Oh, now I remember. Your argument is that words don't mean what words mean. With that argument you can disprove anything. www.mellesgriot.com/products/optics/oc_2_1.htm "Clearly, if the wavelength of the incident light and the thickness of the film are such that a phase difference exists between reflections of p, then reflected wavefronts interfere destructively, and overall reflected intensity is a minimum. If the two reflections are of equal amplitude, then this amplitude (and hence intensity) minimum will be zero." "In the absence of absorption or scatter, the principle of conservation of energy indicates all 'lost' reflected intensity will appear as enhanced intensity in the transmitted beam. The sum of the reflected and transmitted beam intensities is always equal to the incident intensity. This important fact has been confirmed experimentally." http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/interference/waveinteractions/index.html "... when two waves of equal amplitude and wavelength that are 180- degrees out of phase with each other meet, they are not actually annihilated. All of the photon energy present in these waves must somehow be recovered or redistributed in a new direction, according to the law of energy conservation ... Instead, upon meeting, the photons are redistributed to regions that permit constructive interference, so the effect should be considered as a redistribution of light waves and photon energy rather than the spontaneous construction or destruction of light." That's as clear as it can possibly be, Jim. Wave cancellation redistributes the energy. In a transmission line, if energy is redistributed, it must necessarily change directions. Would you believe there are only two directions available in a transmission line? If not, please prove it. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216047 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Tim Wescott Subject: Re: Suggestions? Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:35:52 -0700 Message-ID: <11f5gjmmp75q2e8@corp.supernews.com> References: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> No no. The bikes are enhancing the overall experience. It's the _cars_ that are creating a hazard. Fred W4JLE wrote: > Yep, you folks spend a fortune to get a bike 10 pounds lighter, then carry > around a 20 pound chain to keep people from stealing it! > > Every other sport takes place on a field designed for the sport. You guys > for the most part ride on the highways creating a hazard. > > "Ham op" wrote in message > news:FMidnVH7w7PRD2_fRVn-gQ@comcast.com... > >>It's obvious that Fred doesn't ride. My bike costs more than many HF >>rigs !!! >> >>BTW, in a crash, the BNC should break apart and have the coax tear out. >>Solution, carry a cell phone and leave the radio at the shack! >> >>I carry a 2/440 HT. >> >>+ + + >> >>Fred W4JLE wrote: >> >>>I told Lance, and now I will tell you, if you get in my way in your > > little > >>>faggoty outfits and goofy helmets, I will run your ass over. Don't > > worry, I > >>>will call 911 and let them know where to pick up your traffic blocking > > body. > >>> >>>"Ken Bessler" wrote in message >>>news:QrPHe.35144$Eo.25151@fed1read04... >>> >>> >>>>I'm looking for an antenna connector with the following >>>>idea: >>>> >>>>I want to mount a spare 2m/440 mobile antenna on my >>>>race bike and use my FT-51R ht on my belt with the >>>>deluxe remote mic on the handlebars. >>>> >>>>Problem is that if I wreck, the radio will want to stay on >>>>my belt but the coax going to the antenna won't! The mic >>>>connector will pull out but the antenna connector (BNC) >>>>will stay until something breaks. If I wreck, I may need my >>>>HT to call for assistance (it's happened once before) I >>>>need an inepensive 50 ohm pair of connectors that will slide >>>>apart when pulled. Kinda like a push on F fitting but for >>>>50 ohm RG-58 cable. >>>> >>>>The only ones I've thought of are the F fitting or an RCA >>>>connection. Anybody know the impedance of an RCA plug? >>>> >>>>Are there push on BNC or 259 connectors? Cost matters. >>>> >>>>-- >>>> Just my 2¢... 73 es gd dx de Ken KGØWX >>>> Grid EM17ip, Flying Pigs #-1055 >>>>Proud builder & owner of Elecraft K2 #4913 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Article: 216048 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ken Bessler" References: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> <11f5gjmmp75q2e8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions? Message-ID: <0JzIe.48102$Eo.23530@fed1read04> Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 20:58:20 -0500 OK, OK - let's drop it before someone living in a trailer with a vanity callsign gets his feather's ruffled..... For the record - I did get several good ideas. The best was to simply not lock the BNC connector on the bayonets. Sheilds up, you may flame away...... -- 73 de Ken KGØWX - Flying Pigs #-1055 Elecraft K2 #4913 Article: 216049 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> <11f5gjmmp75q2e8@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Suggestions? Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:00:00 -0400 Message-ID: The bikes have no mirrors, lights etc. "Gotta save that weight" I had one swerve to avoid a pothole, and sans a mirror pulled right in my path. I managed to avoid him. "Tim Wescott" wrote in message news:11f5gjmmp75q2e8@corp.supernews.com... > No no. The bikes are enhancing the overall experience. It's the _cars_ > that are creating a hazard. > .com Article: 216050 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 00:22:06 -0500 Message-ID: <19918-42F2F77E-347@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> References: <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil, W5DXP wrote: "What phenomenon of physics causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction?" Suppose you have a 50-ohm coax that has a 25-ohm resistor across its load end. The incident wave traveling on the coax has too much voltage and too little current to supply the 25-ohm load. As the load forces the incident voltage lower, energy is conserved by transfer of energy from the E-field to the H-field. Voltage generated in this energy transfer between fields is reversed in phase from that in the incident wave. Though current is increased in the too low load resistance, its phase is unchanged from that in the incident wave. The reversed-phase voltage caused by the roo-low load resistance launches the reflected wave. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216051 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:57:38 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Suggestions? References: <61060$42efc6b5$438df2d2$8341@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: <42f2d5a2$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Ham op wrote: > It's obvious that Fred doesn't ride. My bike costs more than many HF > rigs !!! > > BTW, in a crash, the BNC should break apart and have the coax tear out. > Solution, carry a cell phone and leave the radio at the shack! > > I carry a 2/440 HT. > > + + + > Part of the problem may lie with how the average bicycle rider acts in some places. I am not assuming you are a bad guy, but I saw a bike rider folded in half laying in the street, yes he was dead, last year in downtown Minneapolis and I was pleased. We have a nasty buch of assholes riding in our downtown. I had one kick by door becasue I didn't "yield" for him when I had the green light and he had the red. tom K0TAR Article: 216052 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Marc Delporte" References: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Subject: Re: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 11:53:53 +0200 Message-ID: <42f33721$0$25024$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Thanks for the answers. It seems that HF Terrain Assessment N6BV does work only with horizontal polarisation (specially with yagi or quad). 2 questions : Does the K6STI TA works for Vertical polarization ? Can we input in TA or HFTA SRTM terrain models ? 73' F1GSN Article: 216053 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bill KB3GUN" References: <42ee8477$0$5360$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> Subject: Re: Cushcraft MA5B Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:21:28 -0400 Message-ID: <42f34bb1$0$50897$ec3e2dad@news.usenetmonster.com> "Warren Bowery" wrote in message news:Xns96A8C2791B48Dwbowerybrightnet@216.196.97.142... > Hi Smitty.... > > I have used my MA-5B for over a year. I have it 40' up, and it works > fine. > It has withstood an ice storm this winter (1/4" ice build-up), and 60+ MPH > winds a couple of times. > > Highest gain is on 10 meters of course, but I've worked my fair share of > DX > on 20 and 15. Keep in mind that it functions as a 2-element Yagi only on > 10, 15 and 20 meters. On 12 and 17 it is a rotatable dipole. Still, I'm > happy with it. I've been able to work just about everything I've heard > with it. > > Warren - KC8YKQ > > Thanks Warren! -Smitty Article: 216054 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark Veldhuis Subject: Re: Buzzz on my Wellbrook ALA 1530 loop Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 14:55:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4avhe1duludfoedb8nu7g480man5miej6v@4ax.com> Guys, Thanks for your replies so far. The buzz/noise is irregular. Not always, and when it's there, it's not always audible on the same frequencies. I am afraid it's something in the neighbourhood. Lots of houses around, so it probably won't be easy to find out exactly where it comes from. I also hear it when I connect a simple wire as an antenna, so I think it's not a ground loop? I made a recording of 1602 kHz. this afternoon. You can hear the buzz/noise there, although not as strong as previous times. Maybe someone can tell more by listening to the audioclip? It is at http://mark-veldhuis.nl/1602.mp3 . -- 73', Mark Veldhuis. Article: 216055 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:32:23 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <19918-42F2F77E-347@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42f36b78$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Cecil, W5DXP wrote: > "What phenomenon of physics causes the energy and momentum in that wave > to reverse direction?" > > Suppose you have a 50-ohm coax that has a 25-ohm resistor across its > load end. The incident wave traveling on the coax has too much voltage > and too little current to supply the 25-ohm load. What I was talking about is a little more complicated than that. Assume rho^2 = 0.5 at an impedance discontinuity at a match point. The rearward-traveling reflected wave sees the impedance discontinuity at the match point and 1/2 of the energy is reflected back toward the load according to the rules of reflection. What reflects the other half of the energy? The 50 ohm coax on the source side of the match point refuses to accept *any* voltage or current. 100% of the reflected energy is re-reflected at the match point. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216056 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:49:23 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent References: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> <42f33721$0$25024$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: <42f37db2$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Marc Delporte wrote: > Thanks for the answers. And thanks for the posting from tomorrow morning. :-) -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216057 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:15:25 -0500 Message-ID: <9527-42F3828D-326@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: <42f36b78$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil, W5DXP wrote: "What reflects the other half of the energy?" The previous example I gave was a 25-ohm resistor-load on a 50-ohm line. Change the load to 100 ohms. Now the load cannot accept all the current carried by the incident wave. Lenz`s law says the falling current generates a rising voltage in an attempt to maintain the current. The load-generated voltage is in the same phase as the incident voltage so their sum is greater. Increased voltage across the load reverses phase and direction of the line-current at the too-high load resistance. Thus, direction of the reflection is opposite that of the incident wave. If the load is too small or too large for Zo, some of the incident energy is reflected by the load. The two processes are analogous. When the load value is too small, there is a reversal in the phase of the voltage without change in the phase of the current (1955 Terman page 92). When the load value is too large, there is a reversal in the phase of the current without change in the phase of the voltage (1955 Terman page 89). Those are the necessary and sufficient conditions to reverse the direction of some of the energy in an incident wave on a transmission line. For a complete reversal, a short or an open is required. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216058 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f18896$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <4d83f1tq1m3nf4hf47jb2nenmspf0d8s01@4ax.com> Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:28:30 -0400 Message-ID: <77c18$42f385ad$438df2d2$15254@ALLTEL.NET> Thanks Richard, as the proud father of an army aviator, Kiowa Warriors, I already get the Army Times. My son is a W3, soon to be W4. He will return to Iraq for a second tour next month. He has been in Bosnia and Afganistan as well. "Richard Clark" wrote in message news:ccs5f1ploeuij9v7v3jh0eo6jpqood8onp@4ax.com... > On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 04:25:56 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" > wrote: > > >Good lord Richard, did you check the reference? It was a friggen joke! > > Hi Fred, > > You deserve a joke in return that is probably more entertaining than > mine I suspect. > > From this week's Army Times is a comic strip by Mort Walker's "Beetle > Bailey." Beetle and Zero are ambling along talking: Article: 216059 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Buzzz on my Wellbrook ALA 1530 loop Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:30:02 -0500 Message-ID: <9527-42F385FA-329@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: Mark Veldhuis wrote: "The buz/noise is irregular." A small battery operated portable containing a loop antenna will be found to have a nulled response in a certain sense aimed toward the interference source. Use it to find the source. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216060 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allodoxaphobia Subject: Re: Terrain Analysis : TA from K6STI or equivalent Date: 5 Aug 2005 16:13:18 GMT Message-ID: References: <42f0bdc3$0$22287$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> <42f33721$0$25024$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> <42f37db2$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:49:23 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: > Marc Delporte wrote: >> Thanks for the answers. > > And thanks for the posting from tomorrow morning. :-) I wish he'd come back again soon and give us opening stock quotes. Jonesy Article: 216061 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:33:44 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <42f36b78$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9527-42F3828D-326@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42f3a437$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Those are the necessary and sufficient conditions to reverse the > direction of some of the energy in an incident wave on a transmission > line. For a complete reversal, a short or an open is required. What you say happens at a load is entirely correct. At a load, there is only one EM wave incident upon the load. But at an impedance discontinuity in a transmission line with reflections, there are two EM waves incident upon the impedance discontinuity, one from each direction. There's a forward wave coming from the source and a reflected wave coming from the load. It might stand to reason that twice as many incident waves might complicate things beyond what happens at a load. And things are more complicated as can be observed from the s-parameter equations. For a single load, the s-parameter reflected voltage/power equations reduce to: b1 = s11*a1 for normalized reflected voltage, and b1^2 = (s11*a1)^2 for reflected power where s11^2 is the power reflection coefficient For an impedance discontinuity in the middle of a transmission line with reflections, the s-parameter equation for normalized reflected voltage is: b1 = s11*a1 + s12*a2 for normalized voltage, and b1^2 = (s11*a1 + s12*a2)^2 for reflected power It's pretty obvious that the reflected power equation at the impedance discontinuity is more complicated than the reflected power equation at the load. In fact, if you do the squaring of the right hand side of the equation just above, you get the interference term. 2*s11*s12*a1*a2*cos(phi) where phi is the phase angle between phasors a1 and a2. The interference term, in watts, represents the amount of interference present and affects the magnitude of the reflected power. Since the amount of interference affects the total reflected power, it must also affect the total forward power so as to satisfy the conservation of energy principle. Since interference affects the magnitudes of both the reflected power and forward power, the conclusion is inescapable that interference can also cause reflections and this is verified by a couple of technical web pages pertaining to light waves. www.mellesgriot.com/products/optics/oc_2_1.htm http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/interference/waveinteractions/index.html Walter Maxwell wrote about such back in the 70's. From Sec 4.3 of "Reflections" speaking of match points: "The destructive wave interference between these two complementary waves ... causes a complete cancellation of energy flow in the direction toward the generator. Conversely, the constructive wave interference produces an energy maximum in the direction toward the load, ..." In a transmission line with only two directions, when the energy flow is canceled in one direction, that energy must necessarily flow in the only other direction available, i.e. an energy reflection must take place. So to your list of three things that can cause 100% reflection, you can add wave cancellation in the form of total destructive interference between two EM waves traveling in the same direction in a thansmission line, having equal magnitudes and opposite phases. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216062 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Message-ID: References: <42f36b78$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <9527-42F3828D-326@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> <42f3a437$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:25:02 -0400 On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:33:44 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: >What you say happens at a load is entirely correct. At a >load, there is only one EM wave incident upon the load. >But at an impedance discontinuity in a transmission line >with reflections, there are two EM waves incident upon >the impedance discontinuity, one from each direction. >There's a forward wave coming from the source and a >reflected wave coming from the load. snip There's another way of viewing the manner in which energy reflected >from a mismatch load. That is 'motor generator action'. Lest you think I'm joking, please let me quote from my own writing in QST August 1973, 32 years ago, repeated in Chapter 3 of Reflections 1 and 2: "... Now we'll proceed to the generation of reflections. When the electromagnetic field reaches the end of the line, if the load terminating the line is an open circuit, the magnetic field collapses because the current goes to zero due to the infinite impedance of the open-circuit. The changing magnetic field at the open circuit produces a new electric field equal in energy to the magnetic field, which induces a new voltage into the load circuit that is equal to, and in phase with the voltage in the forward wave. (Keep in mind that a voltage is induced, or generated, by mutual motion between a magnetic field and a conductor, a phenomenon generally known as motor-generator action. Thus, it can be said that the reflected voltage was developed and delivered by a generator, a reflection generator. Although in this case the field is changing while the conductor is stationary, as in a transformer, it is motor-generator action nonetheless.) The new electric field induced by the changing magnetic field adds in phase to the existing electric field, and the new induced voltage (delivered by the reflection generator) adds in phase to the voltage in the forward wave, resulting in an increase of voltage at the open circuit to twice the voltage of the forward wave. At this instant, a standing wave is developing, because now there is a current minimum and a voltage maximum at the open-circuit termination, where an instant before, current and voltage were constant all along the line. The new voltage at the open-circuit termination, along with its new electric field, starts a voltage wave traveling in the rearward direction, as if it had been launched by a separate generator at the open-circuit point. (It has---remember the induced voltage, generated by the changing magnetic field?) Since no energy was absorbed by the open-circuit load, the new rearward-traveling voltage wave has the same magnitude as the original forward wave, which is why rho = 1, indicating total reflection. As the new electric field starts its rearward travel, it produces a new magnetic field, which in turn produces a new current, launched into the line as the reflected current wave with the same magnitude as the forward current wave, but with opposite polarity and direction. The new electric and magnetic fields combine to form the reflected electromagnetic field and, as in the forward electromagnetic-field wave, the energy in the reflected electromagnetic-field wave also divides equally between its electric and magnetic fields." Walt, W2DU Article: 216063 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 14:24:43 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > Since you're the only person in history to have ever claimed such a > phenomenon occurs, the responsibility rests squarely with you to prove > it exists. I have quoted many references. That you choose to ignore them is not my problem. Of course, they are not going to use identical words to mine. Ham radio lingo has a flavor all it's own, "reflections" being one of them. I am expecting any moment for you to say a reversal of energy flow in a transmission line is not always a reflection. That's how you resolve arguments - by redefining words until your opponent is wrong, by definition. > As I just got done saying, the only way for electromagnetic > energy to change direction is by reflection. It seemed you understood > that. I certainly do and wave cancellation can cause a reflection, i.e. a reversal of energy flow in a transmission line. It's as simple as that. The "redistribution of energy in a different direction" caused by wave cancellation can only occur in one direction in a transmission line. If wave cancellation occurs in one direction, the energy existing in the waves before they were canceled must necessarily be distributed in the only other direction possible. It's all explained on the optics web pages that I previously posted. > I understand them perfectly. You may recall that I introduced you to > the Melles-Griot site. You on the other hand, misunderstand them. When you introduced me to the Melles-Groit web page, you told me what it said and I still think you were right. You were happy for me because you had found something to support my concepts. After a few days, you changed your mind and informed me that it didn't say what you first thought it said. Maybe you should question what caused your mind to change? Quite often, the first conclusion is the correct one. So does it say what it says, or not? > And you are clearly reading more into it than it clearly says (as > evidenced by the fact that what you wrote and what it says are clearly > not the same thing). Clearly not identical but clearly meaning the same thing as you said it meant when you first introduced me to that web page. Why did you change your mind about what it said? > Your interpretation is totally incorrect. Then your initial interpretation of the Melles-Groit web page information was totally incorrect. Why did you do a 180? > Interference is an effect not a cause. Interference is not an end effect. Interference can cause the perception of light and dark rings on the human retina. Lots of effects which have a cause, cause additional effects in a chain of cause and effect events. Haven't you ever seen the TV series "Connections" where one effect caused another effect which caused another effect ...? So the spacing of the wheels on a Roman chariot eventually dictated the maximum size of the boosters on the Space Shuttle? Interference in transmission lines can cause reflections which is simply a redistribution of energy in the only other direction possible. What is it about the "redistribution of energy caused by interference" that you don't understand? It is explained on those web pages. In a transmission line, dispersion and refraction are mostly absent, so reflection is the only thing that can possibly "redistribute the energy". We know the reflected energy stops flowing toward the source in the transmission line at a match point. Wonder what other possible direction it can take next? That's a really tough question. ... I like you, Jim, because you make me laugh. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216064 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 12:43:19 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: >> I understand them perfectly. You may recall that I introduced you to >> the Melles-Griot site. You on the other hand, misunderstand them. > > > When you introduced me to the Melles-Groit web page, you told > me what it said and I still think you were right. You were happy > for me because you had found something to support my concepts. After > a few days, you changed your mind and informed me that it didn't > say what you first thought it said. Maybe you should question what > caused your mind to change? I know intimately well what caused me to change my mind. It doesn't make sense! It's insupportable by the underlying physics. I work in the field; I've asked E&M people about it. I didn't make up an explanation for this - YOU DID! Then you looked around to see if it was true. And you want to think that Melles-Griot confirms it. But it doesn't. > Quite often, the first conclusion is the > correct one. So does it say what it says, or not? My second conclusion enjoyed the benefit of actually working through the problem. That's certainly not true in your case. >> Interference is an effect not a cause. > > > Interference is not an end effect. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making a fool of yourself. Since you don't believe me, try to get Melles-Griot or Eugene Hecht to confirm your theory that interference causes waves to reflect. Good luck with that OM. ac6xg Article: 216065 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:05:08 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f3c787$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Jim's legacy (and those who silently share in it) is bountiful. :-) Richard, I wish I could share my email with you. There is only agreement and encouragement. The only negative comment is that I stick with a thread longer than I probably should. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216066 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:42:36 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f3d050$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > I know intimately well what caused me to change my mind. It doesn't > make sense! It's insupportable by the underlying physics. I work in > the field; I've asked E&M people about it. I didn't make up an > explanation for this - YOU DID! Then you looked around to see if it was > true. And you want to think that Melles-Griot confirms it. But it > doesn't. That's just your opinion, worth exactly what it costs. You have presented no technical argument to prove your case. All you have presented are logical diversions, personal opinions, and gut feelings. Why do you refuse to answer the question: Given reflected energy rejected by a mismatched load, what causes the reversal of direction of the energy flow and momentum at the match point? It is a simple question that you have avoided answering for months. One wonders why. > You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making a fool of > yourself. Asserting that there is no before and after is foolish. Asserting that a redistribution of energy in a transmission line must have more than one choice is foolish. Implying that cause and effect doesn't exist is foolish. Asserting that the waves involved in wave cancellation don't exist is foolish. If the waves involved in wave cancellation don't exist, then wave cancellation is impossible. That's simple logic. If wave cancellation doesn't exist, it follows that the energy flowing toward the source is not zero even though we measure it at zero. This is the logical hole that Dr. Best dug for himself and you crawled right in after him. Dr. Best asserted that the two waves keep flowing toward the load, canceling each other all the way to somewhere (or nowhere). The concepts that you hold concerning this subject are proven to be logically contradictory. You may disagree, but I don't believe contradictions can exist in reality. I believe they can only exist in human minds and yours obviously contains a multitude. When I encounter a contradiction, I change my mind. You obviously tolerate (and seem to enjoy) contradictions. You even use contradictions as part of your arguments. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216067 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f3c787$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:44:40 -0400 Message-ID: <3d2f$42f3cfd4$438df2d2$23463@ALLTEL.NET> I have only found infallibility in Terman, Kraus, Maxwell, The Pope, and now Cecil! "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42f3c787$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Richard Clark wrote: > > Jim's legacy (and those who silently share in it) is bountiful. :-) > > Richard, I wish I could share my email with you. > There is only agreement and encouragement. The > only negative comment is that I stick with a > thread longer than I probably should. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216068 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 15:47:47 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f3c787$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d2f$42f3cfd4$438df2d2$23463@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: <42f3d18b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Fred W4JLE wrote: > I have only found infallibility in Terman, Kraus, Maxwell, The Pope, and > now Cecil! I apologize profusely, Fred, and will strive for infallibility. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216069 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f3c787$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <3d2f$42f3cfd4$438df2d2$23463@ALLTEL.NET> <42f3d18b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer ... Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 16:53:13 -0400 Message-ID: You are my hero Cecil! "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42f3d18b$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Fred W4JLE wrote: > > I have only found infallibility in Terman, Kraus, Maxwell, The Pope, and > > now Cecil! > > I apologize profusely, Fred, and will strive for infallibility. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216070 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: S.Fritts Subject: Open ladder line question Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:03:32 GMT In reference to the discussion about the fellow wanting to run several antennas with seperate ladder lines, is it ok to terminate the ladder line with a 4:1 balun and the run the coax from the balun to the tuner? I also want to run at least two center fed zepp type antennas fed with ladder line. Can I just terminate the ladder lines outside with a 4:1 balun on each and run two coax feed lines to an antenna switch inside the house? I hope I am making myself clear on this. Thanks Steve W4SEF Article: 216071 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: S.Fritts Subject: Feeding ladder line question Message-ID: Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:00:23 GMT I dont think my post got posted...I want to use two seperate antennas such as center fed zepp types.....can I feed each antenna with ladder line such as 450 ohm and then teminate each ladder line to two 4:1 baluns (one balun per line) and use 50 ohm coax to the shack? In other words, one balun per feed line the have 2 coaxes running in to the shack with an antenna switch. Thanks Steve W4SEF Article: 216072 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:25:53 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f3d050$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Why do you refuse to answer the question: Given reflected energy > rejected by a mismatched load, what causes the reversal of direction > of the energy flow and momentum at the match point? The only thing which can cause energy to change direction is reflection. I have answered that question every time you asked it. Perhaps you were just unable to grasp the meaning of the answer. It means that for an electromagnetic wave to reverse direction, it must encounter a change in the nature of the conducting medium. Interference results when two or more waves superpose. The pattern is the amplitude resultant plotted as a function of position. It may be generated as a result of a reflection, but is not an entity which itself reflects waves. Impedance discontinuities or changes in the index of refraction - those things cause reflection. An interference pattern created by waves is still just waves arranged differently. Waves don't cause other waves to change direction. If you think they do, then you need to try to find some proof. Adding your misguided editorials to desriptions of interference doesn't qualify. ac6xg Article: 216073 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 20:10:53 -0500 Message-ID: <11195-42F40E1D-175@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> References: <19918-42F2F77E-347@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> Cecil, W5DXP wrote: "What phenomenon of physics causes the energy and momentum in that wave to reverse direction?" It must keep moving and if it can`t go somewhere it goes elsewhere. Shorts and opens are a way to control current which in its magnitude, phase, and path produces fields. In a transmission line or wave guide, waves are guided. In free-space, waves move away from the source. In a small single-turn loop, the current everywhere within the loop is very nearly the same. A complete null is achieved on the axis of the loop (see 3rd edition of Kraus` "Antennas" page 204, Fig. 7-7). The loop`s null results from equidistance along the axis srom corrent and fields which are in opposite directions. The fields are moving in the same directions but because of their opposite polarities add to zero along the axis. So, to opens and shorts, equal and opposite radiation fields can be added to the list of things which cancel energy traveling in a certain direction. When a fixed rate of energy flow must be maintained, cancelled energy must emerge in the noncancelled directions. It`s energy conservation. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 216074 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:34:23 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Open ladder line question References: Message-ID: <42f414b2$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> S.Fritts wrote: > In reference to the discussion about the fellow wanting to run several > antennas with seperate ladder lines, is it ok to terminate the ladder > line with a 4:1 balun and the run the coax from the balun to the > tuner? I also want to run at least two center fed zepp type antennas > fed with ladder line. Can I just terminate the ladder lines outside > with a 4:1 balun on each and run two coax feed lines to an antenna > switch inside the house? Why do you think you need a 4:1 balun? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216075 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:10:33 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <8747-42EB047A-585@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net> <25693-42EEE259-873@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <42ef055c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42efe0ed$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <84m1f1tci81akgviciml6g4p45k6ll2hic@4ax.com> <42f15272$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f213b6$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f27e1e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2976b$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f29ded$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f2af93$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <1123264288.985238.229260@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <42f3be0e$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <42f3d050$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f41d2c$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > The only thing which can cause energy to change direction is reflection. > I have answered that question every time you asked it. But that is a non-answer and you don't offer any idea as to the cause of the reflection. What causes 100% re-reflection of reflected waves in a matched system? You are still avoiding a valid answer. > It means that for > an electromagnetic wave to reverse direction, it must encounter a change > in the nature of the conducting medium. Assume it encounters a power reflection coefficient of 0.5 in a matched system. What causes the reflection of the other half of the reflected energy? > Impedance discontinuities or changes in the index of > refraction - those things cause reflection. Yes, and wave cancellation in a transmission line only happens at an impedance discontinuity so your assertion has no point. > An interference pattern > created by waves is still just waves arranged differently. On the contrary, wave cancellation at a match point is permanent. The waves cease to existence in the direction of the source. They are not arranged differently. Your assertion is obviously false for interference patterns at match points in transmission lines. Before you go into a tirade, what you say is usually true, just not for match points in transmission lines which is a special case. > Waves don't cause other waves to change direction. Normally, that's true. But when the two coherent waves disappear >from existence in the direction of the source, the conservation of energy principle takes over. If the energy is not flowing toward the source then it must necessarily flow toward the load. That is such a simple concept it's hard to believe that you cannot comprehend it. It's explained in the web page quote below. > If you think they do, then you need to try to find some proof. Isn't the following proof enough? They are talking about wave cancellation such as happens at a non-reflective surface or a match point in a transmission line. "... when two waves of equal amplitude and wavelength that are 180- degrees out of phase with each other meet, they are not actually annihilated. All of the photon energy present in these waves must somehow be recovered or redistributed in a new direction, according to the law of energy conservation ..." "Redistributed in a new direction" in a transmission line means changing direction. What is it about that simple concept that you fail to comprehend? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216076 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:31:46 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: The Extreme Failure of Poor Concepts in Discussing Thin Layer References: <19918-42F2F77E-347@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <11195-42F40E1D-175@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: <42f42225_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Harrison wrote: > Cecil, W5DXP wrote: > "What phenomenon of physics causes the energy and momentum in that wave > to reverse direction?" > > So, to opens and shorts, equal and opposite radiation fields can be > added to the list of things which cancel energy traveling in a certain > direction. Thanks Richard, that's what I have been trying to say. And the "equal and opposite radiation fields" can occur inside a transmission line at an impedance discontinuity. After all, an RF transmission line signal is just EM wave-fields contained by a boundary. Walter Maxwell said such in "Reflections II", page 23-9: "With equal magnitudes and opposite phase at the same point (Point A, the matching point), the sum of the two waves is zero." When two waves sum to zero, their energy components must be redistributed. In a transmission line, if energy ceases flowing in one direction, it must change directions. That's a reflection. So here's a list of things that can cause 100% re-reflection of reflected energy in a transmission line. 1. short-circuit, 2. open-circuit, 3. pure reactance, 4. permanent wave cancellation at an impedance discontinuity. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216077 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Paul Hinman Subject: Re: How to get RG-213/U from shack to exterior References: <6eednVdvdJ8MoEXfRVn-ug@comcast.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:10:38 GMT This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080605040109000107010209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ham op wrote: > John, you can use the wood or plastic insert without weather/winter > concerns. I used the wood insert for three years. I solved the > 'winter' problem [I'm in NH and winter temperature runs to -10F] by > packing the space with fiberglass insulation. I used about 3 inches > thick and never had a cool breeze. I had to be careful about keeping > rain, etc. away fro the fiberglass [it swallows water very easily]. > > John N9JG wrote: > >> The non-removable screen has a narrow aluminum frame. My current plan >> is to drill through the wood sill, and patch the holes (both interior >> and exterior) when I leave. >> >> The ground wire will be about 12 feet long, so for the higher bands >> the ground will be ineffective unless I tune it. Actually, unless I >> run the end of an antenna into the shack and load it against ground, >> I should not need an rf ground. >> >> Thanks for your comments and suggestions. >> >> >> "Old Ed" wrote in message >> news:QQRBe.8366$8f7.6598@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net... >> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> It's too bad your window does not lend itself to the spacer-with-holes >>> approach, as I was also going to suggest that. Does that non-removable >>> screen have a wide frame? If so, maybe you could go through holes >>> in a window spacer, then through holes in the screen frame. >>> >>> In any case, you could save yourself one of those holes in the wall by >>> letting your "ground" wire and the coax share one hole. >>> >>> Better yet, you could forget about the "ground" wire altogether--at >>> least >>> if you have a third-wire ground in your AC sockets. A long "ground" >>> wire will be too puny and inductive to be any kind of RF ground. And >>> if you have a power ground through the AC socket, adding a parallel >>> ground path will just confuse things, increase your lightning risk, and >>> possibly put you into a code violation. >>> >>> I have only AC-socket power grounds in my second floor shack, and >>> I run QRO on 80 through 10 with no problems. >>> >>> 73, Ed, W6LOL >>> >> >> >> > A few years back we had a house fire and I had them leave a soft spot in the wall with a cover plate on the inside. This spring I managed to have the antenna installed but last winter we didn't have any problem with cold and it gets to -40 up here (-40 is the same in F or C). Paul --------------080605040109000107010209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ham op wrote:
John, you can use the wood or plastic insert without weather/winter concerns. I used the wood insert for three years. I solved the 'winter' problem [I'm in NH and winter temperature runs to -10F] by packing the space with fiberglass insulation. I used about 3 inches thick and never had a cool breeze. I had to be careful about keeping rain, etc. away fro the fiberglass [it swallows water very easily].

John N9JG wrote:
The non-removable screen has a narrow aluminum frame. My current plan is to drill through the wood sill, and patch the holes (both interior and exterior) when I leave.

The ground wire will be about 12 feet long, so for the higher bands the ground will be ineffective unless I tune it. Actually, unless I run the end of an antenna into the shack and load it against ground, I should not need an rf ground.

Thanks for your comments and suggestions.


"Old Ed" <eXseniorsDeleteThisAndTheX@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:QQRBe.8366$8f7.6598@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Hi John,

It's too bad your window does not lend itself to the spacer-with-holes
approach, as I was also going to suggest that.  Does that non-removable
screen have a wide frame?  If so, maybe you could go through holes
in a window spacer, then through holes in the screen frame.

In any case, you could save yourself one of those holes in the wall by
letting your "ground" wire and the coax share one hole.

Better yet, you could forget about the "ground" wire altogether--at least
if you have a third-wire ground in your AC sockets.  A long "ground"
wire will be too puny and inductive to be any kind of RF ground.  And
if you have a power ground through the AC socket, adding a parallel
ground path will just confuse things, increase your lightning risk, and
possibly put you into a code violation.

I have only AC-socket power grounds in my second floor shack, and
I run QRO on 80 through 10 with no problems.

73, Ed, W6LOL





A few years back we had a house fire and I had them leave a soft spot in the wall with a cover plate on the inside.  This spring I managed to have the antenna installed but last winter we didn't have any problem with cold and it gets to -40 up here (-40 is the same in F or C).

Paul
 --------------080605040109000107010209-- Article: 216078 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <42f45582$0$15059$626a14ce@news.free.fr> From: F8BOE Subject: Re: Feeding ladder line question Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 08:15:18 +0200 References: Hello? Rather 300 Ohm and 1:6 current balun... Don't you? Works perfectly here with a double OCFD. Well 450 Ohm is OK too. 73 de F8BOE Olivier ...-.- S.Fritts wrote: > I dont think my post got posted...I want to use two seperate antennas > such as center fed zepp types.....can I feed each antenna with ladder > line such as 450 ohm and then teminate each ladder line to two 4:1 > baluns (one balun per line) and use 50 ohm coax to the shack? In > other words, one balun per feed line the have 2 coaxes running in to > the shack with an antenna switch. > > Thanks > > Steve > W4SEF From You don't get to reply Sun Aug 7 01:13:08 EDT 2005 Article: 216079 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: NunYa Bidness Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: NunYaBidness Organization: Worldwide Privacy Reply-To: You don't get to reply Message-ID: References: <42e6b3b8_3@newsfeed.slurp.net> <3uaee1ppc02vjeljq8ldk2qd2uil63l6ps@4ax.com> <15sie19i74stkcrnn82q2hebi00knro9a3@4ax.com> <11eitaaov49tnbc@corp.supernews.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.232.72.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1123322052 ST000 69.232.72.129 (Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:54:12 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:54:12 EDT X-UserInfo1: TSU[@ION]RE]RV@[BJKXOTTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNTCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:54:12 GMT Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!10c73d3e!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:239183 alt.engineering.electrical:112636 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:216079 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:27:32 GMT, kashe@sonic.net Gave us: > > > If you're keeping up with the conversation, top posting is far >more efficinet then reading the bottom posters who expect ou to scroll >through a hunderd liones oof crap so you can find out their >contribution consisted of "Huh?" You don't get it, asswipe. It isn't about YOUR convenience. From You don't get to reply Sun Aug 7 01:13:08 EDT 2005 Article: 216080 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: NunYa Bidness Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: NunYaBidness Organization: Worldwide Privacy Reply-To: You don't get to reply Message-ID: References: <3605e1l2erm97mr4qckcvqu1rt7u6ki253@4ax.com> <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> <42e3a212$1_2@x-privat.org> <2458e1hvamc297pubh042p4fm966hl1gk0@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.232.72.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1123322235 ST000 69.232.72.129 (Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:57:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:57:15 EDT X-UserInfo1: TSU[@ION]RE]RV@[BJKXOTTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNTCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:57:15 GMT Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.glorb.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!10c73d3e!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:239184 alt.engineering.electrical:112637 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:216080 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:33:54 GMT, kashe@sonic.net Gave us: > What a bunch of psychobabble. Keep your soft science (at best) >off of a technical forum. Do you like attempting (and failing) at telling others what to do? Screw you, boy. Like I said, if you claim to be so technical conform to the protocol, don't bitch about how you like to be lazy and call it a matter of convenience. From You don't get to reply Sun Aug 7 01:13:08 EDT 2005 Article: 216081 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: NunYa Bidness Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: NunYaBidness Organization: Worldwide Privacy Reply-To: You don't get to reply Message-ID: References: <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> <42e3a212$1_2@x-privat.org> <%oQEe.45$iJ4.693284@news.sisna.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.232.72.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1123322299 ST000 69.232.72.129 (Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:58:19 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:58:19 EDT X-UserInfo1: TSU[@ION]RE]RV@[BJKXOTTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNTCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:58:19 GMT Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nx02.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!207.115.63.142.MISMATCH!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!10c73d3e!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:239185 alt.engineering.electrical:112638 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:216081 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:37:34 GMT, kashe@sonic.net Gave us: > > Fuck the dilettantes -- if they're hot to find out what the >top post was about wjen they "pop in", let them get off their lazy >asses and scroll down. I've already read all that crap and don't feel >like scrolling past it for thirty posts in a row. > > If you can't keep up with the flow, move to >alt.kindergarten.reading.level. > > Help us all out by "popping out". Fuck you, asswipe. Article: 216082 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Adrian Rees \(M1LCR\)" Subject: Shunt Feeding a Tower for Top Band Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 09:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Hi I have just got planning permission for a 75 Foot tower. I plan on putting a Force 12 C31 XR (10-15-20) as well as a lightweight 50MHz and 144MHz yagis, and a rotable 7MHz Dipole up. I plan on running top band by using a Gamma match to feed the tower against a good carpet of buried radials and a chicken wire mat. My question is, does anyone here have experience of shunt feeding a tower for top band, and, does anyone have a formula for calculating the match ? What are you experiences, how good is the solution ? (The formula is important as it will determine the type of tower I order, in terms of seftion length as I don't want to order a tower that although telescopic, has the gamma match feed pint half way up a telescoping section). Thanks Adrian Rees M1LCR From You don't get to reply Sun Aug 7 01:13:09 EDT 2005 Article: 216083 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: NunYa Bidness Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: NunYaBidness Organization: Worldwide Privacy Reply-To: You don't get to reply Message-ID: References: <3605e1l2erm97mr4qckcvqu1rt7u6ki253@4ax.com> <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.232.72.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1123322377 ST000 69.232.72.129 (Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:59:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:59:37 EDT X-UserInfo1: TSU[@ION]RE]RV@[BJKXOTTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNTCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:59:37 GMT Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!nntp.abs.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!10c73d3e!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:239186 alt.engineering.electrical:112639 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:216083 On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:44:57 GMT, kashe@sonic.net Gave us: > >(Bottom posted so that you don't have to give up too many of our >precious IQ points to find it.) Yeah...I'm quite sure that you don't have many left. From You don't get to reply Sun Aug 7 01:13:09 EDT 2005 Article: 216084 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: NunYa Bidness Newsgroups: uk.radio.amateur,alt.engineering.electrical,rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) Sender: NunYaBidness Organization: Worldwide Privacy Reply-To: You don't get to reply Message-ID: References: <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> <52sFe.203$d32.6073449@news.sisna.com> <42e65470$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <50EGe.181$As5.4132938@news.sisna.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.232.72.129 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prodigy.net X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1123322500 ST000 69.232.72.129 (Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:01:40 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 06:01:40 EDT X-UserInfo1: TSU[@ION]RE]RV@[BJKXOTTDFZ\@@FXLM@TDOCQDJ@_@FNTCCNSKQFCY@TXDX_WHSVB]ZEJLSNY\^J[CUVSA_QLFC^RQHUPH[P[NRWCCMLSNPOD_ESALHUK@TDFUZHBLJ\XGKL^NXA\EVHSP[D_C^B_^JCX^W]CHBAX]POG@SSAZQ\LE[DCNMUPG_VSC@VJM Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 10:01:40 GMT Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn12feed!worldnet.att.net!207.115.63.142!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postmaster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.POSTED!10c73d3e!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu uk.radio.amateur:239187 alt.engineering.electrical:112640 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:216084 On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:13:33 -0700, "John Smith" Gave us: >kashe: > >You are in good form tonight, I am splitting a gut reading those responses of >yours! > >I was bored and headed for bed, till you showed up... > You're both retarded. Article: 216085 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "TOM" References: Subject: Re: Shunt Feeding a Tower for Top Band Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 13:07:01 GMT Hi Adrian, The feed point will depend on the geometry of the gamma match wire. A large cage requires a shorter gamma wire than a thin gamma cage. For my tower, a 6" diameter 3-wire cage spaced 2-1/2 feet from the tower was about 34 feet high at the 12.5 ohms point. It was replaced with a 1" diameter aluminum tube and the feedpoint moved up to 42 feet high at the 12.5 ohm point. This is for topband. The wire cage kept breaking due to wire fatigue (we have a lot of wind here), the aluminum tube is much more reliable. The 12.5 ohm feedpoint at 1850 KHz turns out to be a 50 ohms feedpont at about 3750 KHz. Using a 4:1 transformer, one can thus select this gamma feed for either 160 or 80 meters. A 50 ohm feedpoint on topband would be *rougly* twice the lengths quoted above. The gamma capacitor is a 15 kv vacuum variable with a homebrew stepper motor to turn the capacitor. Tuning the capacitor allows full coverage 1.8-2 MHz. and 3.5-4 MHz. An assortment of wide-spaced air variables all arced badly at 1.5 KW power level. -- Tom "Adrian Rees (M1LCR)" wrote in message news:dd21id$egf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com... > Hi > I have just got planning permission for a 75 Foot tower. I plan on putting > a > Force 12 C31 XR (10-15-20) as well as a lightweight 50MHz and 144MHz > yagis, > and a rotable 7MHz Dipole up. > > I plan on running top band by using a Gamma match to feed the tower > against > a good carpet of buried radials and a chicken wire mat. > > My question is, does anyone here have experience of shunt feeding a tower > for top band, and, does anyone have a formula for calculating the match ? > What are you experiences, how good is the solution ? > > (The formula is important as it will determine the type of tower I order, > in > terms of seftion length as I don't want to order a tower that although > telescopic, has the gamma match feed pint half way up a telescoping > section). > > Thanks > > Adrian Rees > M1LCR > > > Article: 216086 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Yves Dussault Subject: Buddipole antenna Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 09:45:53 -0400 I'm thinking of getting a Buddipole antenna. I would loke comments on that antenna. Thanks. VE2ATD Article: 216087 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: solidgoldZZZ@optonline.net (Ron Goldstein--KA2IIA) Subject: Looking for Butternut HF9V Message-ID: <42f4e4dc.1800372@news.optonline.net> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:27:09 GMT Hi all, I am looking for a used Butternut HF9V vertical. If you do, please reply to this message. Remove the "ZZZ" from my E-mail address. Thanks, RON KA2IIA ======================================================== Remove the ZZZ from my E-mail address to send me E-mail. Article: 216088 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 14:52:51 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: A Simple Conceptual Example in Discussing Thin Layer Reflections References: Message-ID: <42f51627$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > Returning again with a new example, described in text as: > > 1w | 1/4WL | |/ > laser-----air-----|---Si Crystal---|---Al contact--- |/ > 1st medium | 2nd medium | 3rd medium |/ > n = 1.0 n = 5.8275 n >> 6 > As I've offered in other posts, the "total" cancellation is entirely > driven by very simple optics which resolve to obvious ratios in the > expression of conservation of energy. Uhhhhhhh Richard, that is not a matched example so, of course, there is no total cancellation of reflections. Why do you think a mis-matched system would ever have total cancellation? What can we do to make it a matched example? Make n3 = 5.8275^2 = 33.93. I have no idea what medium 3 is made out of but it also has to reflect 1/2 the energy incident upon its surface. Now the reflectance (power reflection coefficient) equals 0.5 and is the same at discontinuity A as it is at discontinuity B. The 3rd medium will be considered to be infinite for purposes of simplicity. 1w 1st medium | 1/4WL | laser-----air-----|---2nd medium---|---3rd medium--->... n = 1.0 | n = 5.8275 | n=33.93 A B Now it is matched and reflections are totally canceled. The forward power in medium 1 is 1W. The reflected power in medium 1 is zero. The forward power in medium 2 is 2W. The reflected power in medium 2 is 1W. The forward power in medium 3 is 1W. The reflected power in medium 3 is zero. The above example is akin to the following transmission line example with identical forward and reflected powers. 1/4WL 1W XMTR---50 ohm line---+---291.4 ohm line---+---1698 ohm load A B Pfor1=1W--> Pfor2=2W--> PL=1W <--Pref1=0W <--Pref2=1W This is a Z0-matched system with no reflections on the 50 ohm line. The fact that half the power is reflected at each discontinuity makes it easy to calculate and recognize. *********************************************************************** In a lossless matched system where half the power is reflected at each discontinuity, the forward power in medium 2 will be exactly double the forward power in medium 1. *********************************************************************** Please read that over until you understand it and then try to figure out why. Hint: it is not a violation of the conservation of energy principle. Soon the hole you have dug for yourself will be so deep, you won't be able to reach your keyboard. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216089 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John - kd5yi" Subject: Re: Shunt Feeding a Tower for Top Band Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 15:57:16 -0500 Message-ID: References: Wow! Great hands-on practical information. I don't post to groups much, but I had to reply as this was too good to pass up. We need more of this. Thanks, Tom. John (KD5YI) "TOM" wrote in message news:VB2Je.2885$iE.237@trnddc06... > Hi Adrian, Article: 216090 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:29:20 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: W5DXP at the microphone Message-ID: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Here's the latest picture of me at the microphone. http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/w5dxp.jpg ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216091 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "puns" References: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: W5DXP at the microphone Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 21:37:30 GMT Don't Be Cruel "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Here's the latest picture of me at the microphone. > > http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/w5dxp.jpg > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 > Newsgroups > ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216092 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: W5DXP at the microphone Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 17:51:41 -0400 Message-ID: <916b0$42f530f7$438df2d2$31119@ALLTEL.NET> You ain't nothing but a hound dog... "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > Here's the latest picture of me at the microphone. > > http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/w5dxp.jpg > > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 216093 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: W5DXP at the microphone References: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <916b0$42f530f7$438df2d2$31119@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 22:08:22 GMT Hopefully, "Elvis has left the building" ! Fred W4JLE wrote: > You ain't nothing but a hound dog... > > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net... > >>Here's the latest picture of me at the microphone. >> >>http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/w5dxp.jpg Article: 216094 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Eamon Skelton Subject: Re: W5DXP at the microphone Message-ID: References: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 23:48:43 +0000 On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 16:29:20 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: > Here's the latest picture of me at the microphone. Thank yuh verra much. 73, Ed. EI9GQ. -- Linux 2.6.12.1 Remove 'X' to reply by e-mail. Article: 216095 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 18:29:58 -0500 From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: W5DXP at the microphone References: <42f52cc3$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <42f54909$1_2@spool9-west.superfeed.net> Russ wrote: > Is that a Heil? Not bad for a Rat Shack :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 216096 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:52:45 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <42e6b3b8_3@newsfeed.slurp.net> <3uaee1ppc02vjeljq8ldk2qd2uil63l6ps@4ax.com> <15sie19i74stkcrnn82q2hebi00knro9a3@4ax.com> <11eitaaov49tnbc@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <42f5696d$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Too bad that we don't care about you. NunYa Bidness wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:27:32 GMT, kashe@sonic.net Gave us: > You don't get it, asswipe. It isn't about YOUR convenience. Article: 216097 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2005 20:55:00 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: The CFA de-bagged (Was: Re: First "Del" and now "D'Alembertian"!) References: <9szEe.519$S73.6624348@news.sisna.com> <52sFe.203$d32.6073449@news.sisna.com> <42e65470$1_1@spool9-west.superfeed.net> <50EGe.181$As5.4132938@news.sisna.com> Message-ID: <42f569f4$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Nice responce. You have to love the people coming out of engineering schools today. tom K0TAR NunYa Bidness wrote: > > You're both retarded.