Article: 216481 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
transmission line.

The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
120 degee intervals.

Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
omni-directional?
----
Reg.




Article: 216482 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Ed Price" <edprice@cox.net>
References: <b2f40$42fe6d97$97d55c26$18541@ALLTEL.NET> <3irsf1h4716dgkafn1jbk26je4v2fkuvh8@4ax.com> <11ft4jm3hlk0b38@corp.supernews.com> <h06tf1luccthq7fkfsjko4ug6823ama9bo@4ax.com> <11ft8uft6mbg6c8@corp.supernews.com> <eibtf1ttq1mudcaiga3cj96gefaelrkpfd@4ax.com> <7KALe.1697$Us5.214@fed1read02> <fbednXsE8sLxVWLfRVn-rQ@comcast.com> <9cVLe.1843$Us5.255@fed1read02> <11g1o5d9ee4586c@corp.supernews.com>
Subject: Re: You might be an old timer
Message-ID: <EmrNe.5601$Us5.3171@fed1read02>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 13:33:23 -0700


"David G. Nagel" <nagel@core.com> wrote in message 
news:11g1o5d9ee4586c@corp.supernews.com...
> Ed Price wrote:
>
>> "Ham op" <hamop@comcast.net> wrote in message 
>> news:fbednXsE8sLxVWLfRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
>>
>>>Ed Price wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Wes, what's the preferred scorpion killing technique; you use a hammer 
>>>>or what?
>>>>
>>>
>>>I know the design and operating principles of a hammer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are you certain? Can you produce any documentation or certification 
>> regarding your competence?
>>
> I'm not the person being questioned above but I took shop class in High 
> School. Passed with flying colors. Does that count?
>
> Dave N



Yep, that's good enough for me (if you still have all eight fingers and two 
thumbs). <g>

-- 
Ed
WB6WSN
El Cajon, CA  USA




Article: 216483 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 22:00:33 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <de5kq1$g5p$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


<jgboyles@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Reg Edwards wrote:
> > There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a
3-wire
> > transmission line.
> >
> > The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced
at
> > 120 degee intervals.
> >
> > Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
> > omni-directional?
> > ----
> > Reg.
>
>   Hi Reg,  Is the 3-phase transmitter balanced with the output
current
> equal magnitude, and the phase angle exactly 120 degrees?  Is the
> 3-phase antenna fed via a 3-wire transmission line, or three equal
> length transmission lines?  Us Amateurs don't have a lot of
experience
> with 3-wire coax.  Are the horizontal radiators 1/4-wave, or 1/2
wave?
> If they are 1/4 wave, or 1/2 wave and spaced 120 degrees in the
> horizontal plane, doesn't that form an equilateral triangle?  So,
you
> are feeding a triangular antenna whose sides are 1/4-wave in the
centre
> of each side with balanced 3-phase rf energy?
>   Even if you clarify this is I still won't know the answer to your
> question until I model the array.
> Gary N4AST
=======================================

The three antenna wires are like the spokes of a wheel, spaced at 120
degrees, and each 1/4-wave in length.  All in the horizontal plane.

The transmission line is balanced about ground and each of the line
wires is connected to one of the three antenna elements at the center
of the wheel. There's no need to pull the line wires apart at the end
of the line.

What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane?

Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line
wires.
----
Reg.




Article: 216484 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: VF > 1.0???
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:29:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net>

http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216485 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "H. Adam Stevens, NQ5H" <NQ5H@ARRL.net>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:58:19 -0500
Message-ID: <11gcsgsdte9i2ea@corp.supernews.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

I am not sure, but I have been wondering for years.
Seriously

It's the old question: How do you load three guy wires?
73
H.


"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message 
news:de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
> transmission line.
>
> The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
> 120 degee intervals.
>
> Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
> omni-directional?
> ----
> Reg.
>
> 




Article: 216486 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: microwaves@blueyonder.co.uk (Peter)
Subject: Re: Popular Misconceptions.
Message-ID: <43077562.267833494@news.blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <1124386542_4133@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5062-43053611-340@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 00:13:00 GMT

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 20:29:53 -0500, richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard
Harrison) wrote:

>Sam Butera`s
>Saxophone was competition for Tex Beneke.


Tex was a radio amateur of course...

Peter, G3PHO


Article: 216487 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:42:58 -0400
Message-ID: <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET>

Anyone who has ever watched Startrek knows the light speed limitation is
incorrect.

"Cecil Moore" <w5dxp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----




Article: 216488 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:48:24 -0400
Message-ID: <a65c$43067df7$97d55936$21339@ALLTEL.NET>

Put a capacity hat on the top of the antenna. This will give you the most
performance increase with the least effort.


"dansawyeror" <dansawyeror@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> All,
>
> I have been using an 80 meter loaded vertical for a couple of years with
> moderate success. The ground system is a dozen 'untuned' radials 40 or so
feet




Article: 216489 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "John N9JG" <john@gotwals.xremovey.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:52:48 -0500
Message-ID: <de5usv$f6n$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>

Burying the radials will make zero difference in performance.

"dansawyeror" <dansawyeror@comcast.net> wrote in message 
news:PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com...
> All,
>
> I have been using an 80 meter loaded vertical for a couple of years with 
> moderate success. The ground system is a dozen 'untuned' radials 40 or so 
> feet laying on the ground. The feed line is about 100 feet of RG-8 coax. 
> The SWR in the shack is about 1.1 to 1.
> [stuff]
>
> Would burying the radials and connecting them to several 4 square foot 
> buried screens substantially help the ground system?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan kb0qil
>
>
>
> 




Article: 216490 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.20.01.04.01.68129@gmail.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:04:03 -0700

Cecil:

If I understand a lot of data which has been gathered, it tends to imply
"things" can go faster than the speed of light.  The princeton egg project
is working on the edge of such things:

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

... interesting stuff...

John

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:29:45 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:

> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
> 
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----



Article: 216491 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.20.01.26.55.855083@gmail.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:26:58 -0700

Reg:

I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120
degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2.  And, the physical
placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three
antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle?

John

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000, Reg Edwards wrote:

> There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
> transmission line.
> 
> The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
> 120 degee intervals.
> 
> Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
> omni-directional?
> ----
> Reg.



Article: 216492 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Frank" <ve6cb@nospam.telus.net>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Message-ID: <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:33:09 GMT

> I have been using an 80 meter loaded vertical for a couple of years with 
> moderate success. The ground system is a dozen 'untuned' radials 40 or so 
> feet laying on the ground. The feed line is about 100 feet of RG-8 coax. 
> The SWR in the shack is about 1.1 to 1.
>
> I have done some research on the antenna and based on it parameters it 
> should have a radiation resistance of about 4 Ohms. This says that the 
> coil and ground are absorbing on the order of 45 Ohms. This is 10db 
> performance loss.
>
> I have limited space and the most common solutions are not available to 
> me. From a practical perspective it would seem to me that building a 40 
> foot center feed loaded dipole and putting it in the attic or on the roof 
> would probably perform somewhat better.
>
> Is this a reasonable assumption?
>
> Would burying the radials and connecting them to several 4 square foot 
> buried screens substantially help the ground system?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan kb0qil

How high is the antenna, where is the loading coil placed, what is its 
value, and Q?

Frank




Article: 216493 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Frank" <ve6cb@nospam.telus.net>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <pan.2005.08.20.01.26.55.855083@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <%EwNe.143799$wr.67691@clgrps12>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:34:35 GMT


"John Smith" <assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:pan.2005.08.20.01.26.55.855083@gmail.com...
> Reg:
>
> I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120
> degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2.  And, the physical
> placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three
> antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle?
>
> John

Are these antennas fed with coax?

Frank 




Article: 216494 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.20.02.59.29.320298@gmail.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <pan.2005.08.20.01.26.55.855083@gmail.com> <%EwNe.143799$wr.67691@clgrps12>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 19:59:31 -0700

Frank:

Let's hope Reg will enlighten us on the exact specifics...  I am afraid it
his "word problem" and he says what is and what is not...

John

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 02:34:35 +0000, Frank wrote:

> 
> "John Smith" <assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:pan.2005.08.20.01.26.55.855083@gmail.com...
>> Reg:
>>
>> I do understand this correctly, and each antenna is fed a signal 120
>> degrees out of electrical phase with the other 2.  And, the physical
>> placement of the also happens so as to place any specific one of the three
>> antennas 120 degrees ahead/behind the other two in a physical circle?
>>
>> John
> 
> Are these antennas fed with coax?
> 
> Frank



Article: 216495 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: BKR <TAKEOUTTHISPARTrchvid7@lycos.comREMOVE>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0600
Message-ID: <11gd7ev474i47fd@corp.supernews.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>


Just a hint:
Think of how a turnstile antenna works.  That one works in the 
horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing.  Check the radiation patern.


Reg Edwards wrote:
> There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
> transmission line.
> 
> The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
> 120 degee intervals.
> 
> Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
> omni-directional?
> ----
> Reg.
> 
> 


Article: 216496 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.20.03.13.58.237111@gmail.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <11gd7ev474i47fd@corp.supernews.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:14:00 -0700

BKR:

Reg has " There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna..."

Does this mean the transmitter is powered off 3-phase 60 cycle (if so,
really doesn't affect the antenna) or is the transmitter final somehow
constructed with a tank supplying 3-phase rf???

Then the "3-phase antenna", is each monopole, dipole fed though different
lengths of feedline, with one 0 degree length, one 120 degree length, and
one 240 degree--electrical lengths?

Those brits can be tricky yanno! <grin>

John

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0600, BKR wrote:

> 
> Just a hint:
> Think of how a turnstile antenna works.  That one works in the 
> horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing.  Check the radiation patern.
> 
> 
> Reg Edwards wrote:
>> There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
>> transmission line.
>> 
>> The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
>> 120 degee intervals.
>> 
>> Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
>> omni-directional?
>> ----
>> Reg.
>> 
>>



Article: 216497 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: BKR <TAKEOUTTHISPARTrchvid7@lycos.comREMOVE>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:47:29 -0600
Message-ID: <11gd9tl8v9dqcfb@corp.supernews.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <11gd7ev474i47fd@corp.supernews.com> <pan.2005.08.20.03.13.58.237111@gmail.com>

I think he was providing a simplified model by eliminating phasing 
lines.  As I understood it he meant that there 3 outputs from the TX
with 3 equal length feedlines or a special feedline, and that all are in 
a rotating 120 degree progression.



John Smith wrote:

> BKR:
> 
> Reg has " There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna..."
> 
> Does this mean the transmitter is powered off 3-phase 60 cycle (if so,
> really doesn't affect the antenna) or is the transmitter final somehow
> constructed with a tank supplying 3-phase rf???
> 
> Then the "3-phase antenna", is each monopole, dipole fed though different
> lengths of feedline, with one 0 degree length, one 120 degree length, and
> one 240 degree--electrical lengths?
> 
> Those brits can be tricky yanno! <grin>
> 
> John
> 
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 21:05:28 -0600, BKR wrote:
> 
> 
>>Just a hint:
>>Think of how a turnstile antenna works.  That one works in the 
>>horizontal plane with 90 degree phasing.  Check the radiation patern.
>>
>>
>>Reg Edwards wrote:
>>
>>>There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
>>>transmission line.
>>>
>>>The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
>>>120 degee intervals.
>>>
>>>Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
>>>omni-directional?
>>>----
>>>Reg.
>>>
>>>
> 
> 


Article: 216498 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Ian Jackson <IanJacksonRemoveThisBit@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: You might be an old timer
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:23:05 +0100
Message-ID: <x9JLDMKZptBDFwLq@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
References: <b2f40$42fe6d97$97d55c26$18541@ALLTEL.NET>

In message <11fuu3or347de48@corp.supernews.com>, David G. Nagel 
<nagel@core.com> writes
>Caveat Lector wrote:
>> Regarding steel wool, I recall an old old radio catalog selling an 
>>antenna  cleaning kit to shine up your antenna wire -- claims it 
>>improved reception !
>>  Don't recall if it was steel wool or a fine sandpaper
>>  But when you put up a brand new shiny antenna --  does it seem to 
>>work  better, just like your car runs better after a wash and wax job 
>>(;-)
>>
>Mine always gets wet in the rain that comes immediately after the wash 
>job. ;^)....

I recall that engines are supposed to deliver more power when water is 
sprayed to the air intake. Having washed you car, then driven it out in 
the rain, it may appear more nippy.
Ian.
-- 



Article: 216499 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 07:34:14 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <de6mdm$sk4$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>   <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>   <de5kq1$g5p$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124491826.553521.218150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <tc-dnTYP5LupHZveRVn-tQ@comcast.com>

With a delta connection the line wires would have to opened out at
their ends and would radiate just as much as the triangular antenna
itself.

With either delta or Y connection there is no 4th neutral wire. As the
whole system is balanced there would be zero current in the neutral
anyway.
----
Reg.




Article: 216500 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:51:12 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <de6qu0$fge$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <h8hdg1ts4hep2ttcd9h3gqi4ubuhk42eae@4ax.com>


"Richard Clark" wrote
> >What is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane?
>
> Just like for the two lobes of a dipole, three lobes for a tripole.
>
> >Also what is the equivalent load impedance between each of the line
> >wires.
>
> 35 Ohms.
>
===================================
Richard,
Would you care to divulge how you obtained these two answers?
----
Reg.




Article: 216501 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: chuck <nospam@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <_OGNe.415$I93.209@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:07:54 GMT

Hello Dan,

Some thoughts:

The 10 dB loss is, of course, referenced to a "perfect ground." Even 
with a full length (quarter-wave) vertical and your ground system, 
performance would improve by about 3 dB. Not a blockbuster.

Improving the radial system, as noted by others, is a more realistic 
course. You ought to be able to get the ground resistance closer to 20 
ohms with more radials close in. Then you will be only 6 dB worse than 
if your ground were perfect.

Putting up an indoor dipole is cheap and quick. Put it up and compare it 
with the vertical. But don't hold your breath. You will probably find 
that with some paths, the dipole is better. you may want to keep both.

I assume you've ruled out a capacity hat, center loading, and a coil 
with lower losses, as suggested by others. But with these changes and an 
improved ground system, you might get a full (6 dB) S-unit improvement.

Good luck.

73,

Chuck





dansawyeror wrote:
> All,
> 
> I have been using an 80 meter loaded vertical for a couple of years with 
> moderate success. The ground system is a dozen 'untuned' radials 40 or 
> so feet laying on the ground. The feed line is about 100 feet of RG-8 
> coax. The SWR in the shack is about 1.1 to 1.
> 
> I have done some research on the antenna and based on it parameters it 
> should have a radiation resistance of about 4 Ohms. This says that the 
> coil and ground are absorbing on the order of 45 Ohms. This is 10db 
> performance loss.
> 
> I have limited space and the most common solutions are not available to 
> me. From a practical perspective it would seem to me that building a 40 
> foot center feed loaded dipole and putting it in the attic or on the 
> roof would probably perform somewhat better.
> 
> Is this a reasonable assumption?
> 
> Would burying the radials and connecting them to several 4 square foot 
> buried screens substantially help the ground system?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dan kb0qil
> 
> 
> 
> 


Article: 216502 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <iuKdnU8cduZgsJreRVn-vA@comcast.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:00:33 -0400
Message-ID: <17530$430753a7$97d55b95$7188@ALLTEL.NET>

Sorry I forgot to put in a winking emoticon for the clueless. I thought that
it was obvious that it was a joke.

"Ham op" <hamop@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:iuKdnU8cduZgsJreRVn-vA@comcast.com...
> If your Physics is learned from Startrek you may have a problem!




Article: 216503 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <01teg15uchopur57v1q4kpei5agko3358e@4ax.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:22:29 GMT

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
<g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:

>There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
>transmission line.
>
>The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
>120 degee intervals.
>
>Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
>omni-directional?
>----
>Reg.

No.  Effectively you are feeding two legs with a -120 degree phase
and that will make it directional.

For Omnidirectional operation ALL legs will have to be fed in phase.
If the three sources are laggin in phase then the feed system will
have to correct the phase till all are in phase.

Many years ago, there was a CB (USA 27mhz 11m) that used three
vertical dipoles with phasing to get directionality or omnidirectional
gain.  


Allison



Article: 216504 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:34:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1124563033_7@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <1124510096.125073.269010@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4307698A.9030006@comcast.net>

dansawyeror wrote:
> I will defiantly try adding radials.

Who are you defying?

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216505 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Allodoxaphobia <bit-bucket@config.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: 20 Aug 2005 18:39:03 GMT
Message-ID: <slrndgeu67.2hft.bit-bucket@shell.config.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <1124510096.125073.269010@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4307698A.9030006@comcast.net> <1124563033_7@spool6-east.superfeed.net>

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 13:34:36 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:
> dansawyeror wrote:
>> I will defiantly try adding radials.
>
> Who are you defying?

Lawn gnomes, probably.


Article: 216506 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: billg10@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Removal of Morse Code from Amateur License Requirements...Vanity  call wheeee
Message-ID: <mrueg15er88odnqi9t0je5ubdp0shb4fg3@4ax.com>
References: <x_TJe.1297$Aq.917@bignews1.bellsouth.net> <Xn3Ke.29497$HV1.21153@fed1read07> <BZ3Ke.236057$_o.220929@attbi_s71> <xV4Ke.65188$_I2.50854@fe03.news.easynews.com> <42FC018E.E4C00667@earthlink.net> <1123817805_9029@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <ddhag7$kdf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <iN2dnaHNlbId2GDfRVn-vw@comcast.com> <wAgLe.12998$rp.9951@bignews1.bellsouth.net> <42FEB19E.7AAABA57@rickfrazier.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 15:02:19 -0400

When I first got my technician ticket, my assigned call sign was
KI4FAT.  After about 6 months, I retired from the Army and applied for
and received a vanity call sign of WO2RET.  I'm proud of my status
both as a military retiree and an amatuer radio operator.  When
someone asks me what the call sign stands for, I just tell them it
means exactly what it says.  I also have an amatuer radio operator
vanity plate on my car.

As for G4FGQ, the highest compliment I ever had paid to me was after I
had been DXing on the 2meter band using a home made Jbeam, I heard an
old timer telling the indivual I had been talking to that he didn't
catch the call sign but 'that ham with the home made antenna had
really done his homework and put it together right because the signal
was outstanding.'  To have an old-timer call  a relative newcomer a
"HAM" is probably one of the greatest compliments a person can
receive.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill, WO2RET

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:50:57 GMT, Rick Frazier <rickf@rickfrazier.com>
wrote:

>Though this appeared in the Rec.radio.equipment newsgroup and is being broadcast
>to several others that may or may not really be appropriate for this diversion
>from the original subject, I can't help but responding....
>
>When it comes to a vanity call, the relative pittance we are charged for a call
>that makes sense to us (whether because of an old call in another location, or
>because it's easier to transmit in morse, or even fits some other plan we may
>have) is worth the money in my opinion, and I imagine to anyone else that took a
>vanity call.
>
>For myself, I chose my current call because the people at FCC didn't give me a
>call in my area on an upgrade from Tech to Extra, despite an address update way
>prior to the examinations.  Somehow, they managed to show correct postal box
>address and city, but my state as California (where I used to live), yet the zip
>code was correct, so our "wonderful" postal service forwarded the license
>upgrade to my PObox, yet they gave me a California call....
>Moving to a vanity call that indicated Hawaii was a no-brainer for me, and I'd
>be willing to pay 20 bucks a year to keep it, so the increase in costs still
>make sense to me....  I know I may get a lot of flak from some people because of
>this, but it's all what it's worth in my mind....  It is a hobby, and thing that
>are outside "standard assignment" can be expected to cost a bit more.    In my
>mind, it would certainly be worth less than 2 bucks a  month to have a call that
>makes sense to me in place of one that is from an area where I no longer live.
>
>Thanks
>--Rick AH7H
>
>Mr Fed UP wrote:
>
>> Well for myself I wouldn't have picked the spaghetti soup group of letters I
>> had to
>> start with.  But after retiring I thought I might as well get a little
>> vain... That's all
>> that left after a while. he he.... So for a whopping $20 I got a vanity call
>> after
>> moving to a new call area.  I thought in my second life after heart surgery,
>> back surgery,.ect. I might as well have a little fun.   After all isn't that
>> what a
>> hobby is for?  I'll get 10 years out of my new call but I can't get that
>> far on $20 worth of gas these days. eh. Now all I need is about $20K
>> for that new $13,000 ham radio and a tower and antenna   ha ha.
>>
>> What ever is fun  is ok. Even if it means dumping a 25 year old call sign.
>> Let me see Ham radio so varied what next.
>> Been there done that.... DXCC... RTTY... OSCAR.,.. PACKET...
>> oh and of coarse RAG CHEW  codey slow no problem getting in the
>> time for that award.  Contest... Special events... Homebrew...
>> and a cold brew...
>>
>> Oh BTW it isn't the one with the most toys... It's the one who gets to
>> play the most with their toys.    Have fun everyone and don't take
>> it too seriously or you get an ulcer and high blood pressure.
>>
>> Cheers  73 ol' WB9SMX new K4TWO when the papers arrive.  ;-)
>>
>> "Dee Flint" <deeflint01@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:iN2dnaHNlbId2GDfRVn-vw@comcast.com...
>> >
>> > "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
>> > news:ddhag7$kdf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> >>
>> >> I do wish people would not refer to me as a 'ham'.
>> >>
>> >> Amongst the very few things I am proud of is that I am a true Class-A
>> >> Radio Amateur.
>> >>
>> >> Incidentally, as a British pensioner, my annual licence is free.  When
>> >> requested I just have to confirm I am still in circulation.  Same
>> >> applies to riding on buses when mobile or not mobile, sober or not
>> >> sober.
>> >>
>> >> Arn't you American Amateurs envious?
>> >> ----
>> >> Reg, G4FGQ.
>> >
>> > Not the least little bit.  All our renewals are free regardless of age or
>> > work status except for those who elected to get a vanity call sign of
>> > their own choosing instead of sticking with an assigned call.
>> >
>> > Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
>> >



Article: 216507 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.20.18.28.19.434265@gmail.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <01teg15uchopur57v1q4kpei5agko3358e@4ax.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700

nospam:

That cb antenna (with the 3 dipoles arranged so as to go omni/directional)
was called a "scanner", made by antenna specialists I believe (reed
switches in a relay box control the elements.) 

I cut one down, along with the phasing harness to the center of the 10
meter band, works great!  And you are correct, the three 120 degree spaced
vertical dipoles are fed in phase for omni-pattern.

John

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:22:29 +0000, nospam wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:21:38 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
> <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:
> 
>>There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
>>transmission line.
>>
>>The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
>>120 degee intervals.
>>
>>Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
>>omni-directional?
>>----
>>Reg.
> 
> No.  Effectively you are feeding two legs with a -120 degree phase
> and that will make it directional.
> 
> For Omnidirectional operation ALL legs will have to be fed in phase.
> If the three sources are laggin in phase then the feed system will
> have to correct the phase till all are in phase.
> 
> Many years ago, there was a CB (USA 27mhz 11m) that used three
> vertical dipoles with phasing to get directionality or omnidirectional
> gain.  
> 
> 
> Allison



Article: 216508 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Me <Me@shadow.orgs>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Me-26515D.13121820082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:11:04 GMT

In article <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 jgboyles@aol.com wrote:

>  Us Amateurs don't have a lot of experience

That's why they call you "Amateurs".....the Professional Radio Engineers
understand perfectly what the OP was talking about, and exactly why, and 
how, this type of antenna system is used in the real world of 
communications, both fixed and mobile.

Me      who has been around the biz, since almost before Moses.....


Article: 216509 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Message-ID: <6i7fg1l8t1c2s6jas25vq5nev5sc5vhmko@4ax.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <01teg15uchopur57v1q4kpei5agko3358e@4ax.com> <pan.2005.08.20.18.28.19.434265@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:26:06 GMT

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, John Smith
<assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote:

>nospam:
>
>That cb antenna (with the 3 dipoles arranged so as to go omni/directional)
>was called a "scanner", made by antenna specialists I believe (reed
>switches in a relay box control the elements.) 

Yep thats it, got stuck for a name.

>I cut one down, along with the phasing harness to the center of the 10
>meter band, works great!  And you are correct, the three 120 degree spaced
>vertical dipoles are fed in phase for omni-pattern.

Many years ago I help a ham friend (now SK) set up a foursquare.  that
four vertical monopoles with goundplane with phasing feed for gain and
directionality.  It was a very good antenna for 20M.  

Early in my commercial career I worked part time for an AM BCB station
and would help with antenna tuning for directional pattern.  Imagine
three big (300ft) towers in a field with about that much space between
them in a line.  The feed and phasing coils were BIG, the usual
pattern was cartioid with the weak null facing the atlantic ocean to
the southeast.  Just a bigger version of many phased arrays I'd see
in my commercial career.

Allison
KB1GMX



Article: 216510 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Dxer 1600" <rjr@optonline.net>
Subject: DYMEK DA9
Message-ID: <q4ONe.2972$_7.361@fe08.lga>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:08:10 -0400

Hi
I just picked up a  (stoner) Dymek DA9 active antenna. The tuning cap has
somehow been bypassed and it does nothing to affect the station.  I was told
that this was bypassed intentionally so as to be a broadband antenna.  I'd
like to resore ti to original and use the tuning cap as a preselector.

Does anyone have a print / schematic on this unit ?

Thanks!




Article: 216511 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com>
References: <x_TJe.1297$Aq.917@bignews1.bellsouth.net> <Xn3Ke.29497$HV1.21153@fed1read07> <BZ3Ke.236057$_o.220929@attbi_s71> <xV4Ke.65188$_I2.50854@fe03.news.easynews.com> <42FC018E.E4C00667@earthlink.net> <1123817805_9029@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <ddhag7$kdf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <iN2dnaHNlbId2GDfRVn-vw@comcast.com> <wAgLe.12998$rp.9951@bignews1.bellsouth.net> <42FEB19E.7AAABA57@rickfrazier.com> <mrueg15er88odnqi9t0je5ubdp0shb4fg3@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Removal of Morse Code from Amateur License Requirements...Vanity  call wheeee
Message-ID: <n7ONe.9176$ns.8417@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:27:31 GMT

Bill,

Thank you for your service.  With your attitude you will go far in Amateur 
Radio.

Dan/W4NTI

<billg10@bellsouth.net> wrote in message 
news:mrueg15er88odnqi9t0je5ubdp0shb4fg3@4ax.com...
> When I first got my technician ticket, my assigned call sign was
> KI4FAT.  After about 6 months, I retired from the Army and applied for
> and received a vanity call sign of WO2RET.  I'm proud of my status
> both as a military retiree and an amatuer radio operator.  When
> someone asks me what the call sign stands for, I just tell them it
> means exactly what it says.  I also have an amatuer radio operator
> vanity plate on my car.
>
> As for G4FGQ, the highest compliment I ever had paid to me was after I
> had been DXing on the 2meter band using a home made Jbeam, I heard an
> old timer telling the indivual I had been talking to that he didn't
> catch the call sign but 'that ham with the home made antenna had
> really done his homework and put it together right because the signal
> was outstanding.'  To have an old-timer call  a relative newcomer a
> "HAM" is probably one of the greatest compliments a person can
> receive.
>
> Just my 2 cents worth.
>
> Bill, WO2RET
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 02:50:57 GMT, Rick Frazier <rickf@rickfrazier.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Though this appeared in the Rec.radio.equipment newsgroup and is being 
>>broadcast
>>to several others that may or may not really be appropriate for this 
>>diversion
>>from the original subject, I can't help but responding....
>>
>>When it comes to a vanity call, the relative pittance we are charged for a 
>>call
>>that makes sense to us (whether because of an old call in another 
>>location, or
>>because it's easier to transmit in morse, or even fits some other plan we 
>>may
>>have) is worth the money in my opinion, and I imagine to anyone else that 
>>took a
>>vanity call.
>>
>>For myself, I chose my current call because the people at FCC didn't give 
>>me a
>>call in my area on an upgrade from Tech to Extra, despite an address 
>>update way
>>prior to the examinations.  Somehow, they managed to show correct postal 
>>box
>>address and city, but my state as California (where I used to live), yet 
>>the zip
>>code was correct, so our "wonderful" postal service forwarded the license
>>upgrade to my PObox, yet they gave me a California call....
>>Moving to a vanity call that indicated Hawaii was a no-brainer for me, and 
>>I'd
>>be willing to pay 20 bucks a year to keep it, so the increase in costs 
>>still
>>make sense to me....  I know I may get a lot of flak from some people 
>>because of
>>this, but it's all what it's worth in my mind....  It is a hobby, and 
>>thing that
>>are outside "standard assignment" can be expected to cost a bit more. 
>>In my
>>mind, it would certainly be worth less than 2 bucks a  month to have a 
>>call that
>>makes sense to me in place of one that is from an area where I no longer 
>>live.
>>
>>Thanks
>>--Rick AH7H
>>
>>Mr Fed UP wrote:
>>
>>> Well for myself I wouldn't have picked the spaghetti soup group of 
>>> letters I
>>> had to
>>> start with.  But after retiring I thought I might as well get a little
>>> vain... That's all
>>> that left after a while. he he.... So for a whopping $20 I got a vanity 
>>> call
>>> after
>>> moving to a new call area.  I thought in my second life after heart 
>>> surgery,
>>> back surgery,.ect. I might as well have a little fun.   After all isn't 
>>> that
>>> what a
>>> hobby is for?  I'll get 10 years out of my new call but I can't get that
>>> far on $20 worth of gas these days. eh. Now all I need is about $20K
>>> for that new $13,000 ham radio and a tower and antenna   ha ha.
>>>
>>> What ever is fun  is ok. Even if it means dumping a 25 year old call 
>>> sign.
>>> Let me see Ham radio so varied what next.
>>> Been there done that.... DXCC... RTTY... OSCAR.,.. PACKET...
>>> oh and of coarse RAG CHEW  codey slow no problem getting in the
>>> time for that award.  Contest... Special events... Homebrew...
>>> and a cold brew...
>>>
>>> Oh BTW it isn't the one with the most toys... It's the one who gets to
>>> play the most with their toys.    Have fun everyone and don't take
>>> it too seriously or you get an ulcer and high blood pressure.
>>>
>>> Cheers  73 ol' WB9SMX new K4TWO when the papers arrive.  ;-)
>>>
>>> "Dee Flint" <deeflint01@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:iN2dnaHNlbId2GDfRVn-vw@comcast.com...
>>> >
>>> > "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:ddhag7$kdf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> >>
>>> >> I do wish people would not refer to me as a 'ham'.
>>> >>
>>> >> Amongst the very few things I am proud of is that I am a true Class-A
>>> >> Radio Amateur.
>>> >>
>>> >> Incidentally, as a British pensioner, my annual licence is free. 
>>> >> When
>>> >> requested I just have to confirm I am still in circulation.  Same
>>> >> applies to riding on buses when mobile or not mobile, sober or not
>>> >> sober.
>>> >>
>>> >> Arn't you American Amateurs envious?
>>> >> ----
>>> >> Reg, G4FGQ.
>>> >
>>> > Not the least little bit.  All our renewals are free regardless of age 
>>> > or
>>> > work status except for those who elected to get a vanity call sign of
>>> > their own choosing instead of sticking with an assigned call.
>>> >
>>> > Dee D. Flint, N8UZE
>>> >
> 




Article: 216512 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:15:21 -0700
Message-ID: <11gfhspcmcn845f@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <iuKdnU8cduZgsJreRVn-vA@comcast.com>

For those folks who aren't all that familiar with transmission lines. .

Velocity factor refers to phase velocity, and the VF of all hollow 
waveguides is > 1.0.

Of course, the group velocity is always < 1.0, and that's the rate at 
which information can be conveyed. I don't believe for a minute that 
this rule has been broken.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216513 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 17:48:44 -0700

Fred:

I don't believe that anyone has demonstrated faster than light
transmission of an energy, wave or particle, where the effect is
duplicable on demand, yet...

I do believe it will be done in the future, hopefully the rather near
future...  but it will can only be done by people who are searching for
way--the scoffers will never, ever be able to present us with a method
to do so--on that you can bet heavily!

John

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:42:58 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:

> Anyone who has ever watched Startrek knows the light speed limitation is
> incorrect.
> 
> "Cecil Moore" <w5dxp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>>
>> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
>> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
>> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----



Article: 216514 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:49:03 -0400
Message-ID: <43d36$4307ebc6$97d55b95$10784@ALLTEL.NET>

John, picture if you will, an observer on earth watches a spacecraft pass
between the moon and the sun at 99.9%C. The occupant of the space craft
knows that the distance is about 93 million miles and clicks his stopwatch
as he passes the moon, and again as he passes the sun. Given the time and
distance, he computes his speed (measured with his slowed down time piece)
and concludes he has exceeded C. Ergo there must be analogs of C. What say
you?

"John Smith" <assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com...
> Fred:
>
> I don't believe that anyone has demonstrated faster than light
> transmission of an energy, wave or particle, where the effect is
> duplicable on demand, yet...
>
> I do believe it will be done in the future, hopefully the rather near
> future...  but it will can only be done by people who are searching for
> way--the scoffers will never, ever be able to present us with a method
> to do so--on that you can bet heavily!
>
> John
>
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:42:58 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:
>
> > Anyone who has ever watched Startrek knows the light speed limitation is
> > incorrect.
> >
> > "Cecil Moore" <w5dxp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> >> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
> >>
> >> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> > News==----
> >> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
120,000+
> > Newsgroups
> >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> > =----
>




Article: 216515 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:47:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1124596185_499@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com>

John Smith wrote:
> I don't believe that anyone has demonstrated faster than light
> transmission of an energy, wave or particle, where the effect is
> duplicable on demand, yet...

Entangled particles may not violate the letter of the speed
of light limit but they certainly violate the spirit of the
limit. When man figures out how to change the entangled particle
generation pattern from random to predictable, we will have
faster than light communications. It's just a matter of time. :-)
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---


Article: 216516 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.21.04.00.07.872381@gmail.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com> <43d36$4307ebc6$97d55b95$10784@ALLTEL.NET>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:00:10 -0700

Fred:

Quite obviously, there is no such thing as time.

However, since he is attempting to discern if there is a change in his
speed (rapidity at which he is transversing the ether), against a speed
which we now claim as a "law"--i.e. speed-of-light, he must attempt
something, and measure it against some other spinning object (namely
earth, when he uses his watch.) 

He would actually need to throw away the watch and race a laser beam on a
parallel course to himself, which is originating in a third place behind
him to get any meaningful measurement at all, as all he is interested in
is how fast he is traveling in relationship to light transversing the same
media as himself.

But he is doomed to failure, as surely you must see.  Time = movement =
distance, since there is no such thing as time, it is actually distance
(or space itself in between points he travels) which he is really causing
to change, and to my knowledge, we have not yet constructed the device
which can measure such, but a shortening of distance is obviously
happening between him and his destination, those lines of ether which
connect him to his destination are being warped in someway not understood,
probably being bent back upon themselves like a horseshoe, and now he is
not actually traveling the distance around the horseshoe, but rather,
stepping across the two ends.

Ether, the real "matter" of the universe, passes though our altered state
(caused by the big bang ripping our "matter" from the real matter the
universe is composed of and altering its properties into "our matter")
like a gas though a screen composed of very large holes. At the speed of
light this resistance of our bodies to the flow of ether though them fails
to remain insignificant, what happens next, when our matter finally
becomes a real resistance to ether and then goes further to "push" the
ether in a flow not of its' own design, and in a way we have never seen
done since the big bang, is unknown...

... but, I do think upon these things ... and others claim there is
nothing to even be thought upon ...

... but then you already knew there was no way to answer your original
question, at least not correctly ...

John

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:49:03 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:

> John, picture if you will, an observer on earth watches a spacecraft pass
> between the moon and the sun at 99.9%C. The occupant of the space craft
> knows that the distance is about 93 million miles and clicks his stopwatch
> as he passes the moon, and again as he passes the sun. Given the time and
> distance, he computes his speed (measured with his slowed down time piece)
> and concludes he has exceeded C. Ergo there must be analogs of C. What say
> you?
> 
> "John Smith" <assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com...
>> Fred:
>>
>> I don't believe that anyone has demonstrated faster than light
>> transmission of an energy, wave or particle, where the effect is
>> duplicable on demand, yet...
>>
>> I do believe it will be done in the future, hopefully the rather near
>> future...  but it will can only be done by people who are searching for
>> way--the scoffers will never, ever be able to present us with a method
>> to do so--on that you can bet heavily!
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:42:58 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:
>>
>> > Anyone who has ever watched Startrek knows the light speed limitation is
>> > incorrect.
>> >
>> > "Cecil Moore" <w5dxp@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>> >> http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html
>> >>
>> >> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>> > News==----
>> >> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> 120,000+
>> > Newsgroups
>> >> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
>> > =----
>>



Article: 216517 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.21.04.13.13.122335@gmail.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com> <1124596185_499@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:13:14 -0700

Cecil:

Quite factually, I agree with you, whether you were just kidding or not...

John

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 22:47:09 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:

> John Smith wrote:
>> I don't believe that anyone has demonstrated faster than light
>> transmission of an energy, wave or particle, where the effect is
>> duplicable on demand, yet...
> 
> Entangled particles may not violate the letter of the speed
> of light limit but they certainly violate the spirit of the
> limit. When man figures out how to change the entangled particle
> generation pattern from random to predictable, we will have
> faster than light communications. It's just a matter of time. :-)



Article: 216518 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:17:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1124633995_1041@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com> <1124596185_499@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <pan.2005.08.21.04.13.13.122335@gmail.com>

John Smith wrote:
> Quite factually, I agree with you, whether you were just kidding or not...

I thought the multiple meanings of, "It's just a matter of time.",
was humorous.

Consider that the complete quantum state of a particle could be
teleported to Mars and back to Earth without suffering the speed
of light delay. This has already been demonstrated in the physics
lab. Unfortunately, all quantum states must necessarily remain
unknown until the complete quantum state is teleported back to Earth.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216519 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.21.16.56.12.683098@gmail.com>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com> <1124596185_499@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <pan.2005.08.21.04.13.13.122335@gmail.com> <1124633995_1041@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:56:14 -0700

Cecil:

"It boggles the mind.", is often an over-statement.  Here it is not.  It
is no doubt many would question the sanity of men who even are so
brazen that they would ponder such things--in other words, I think we are
going to have to take a little flack over all this...

It is why I pointed out princetons' egg project.  You see how careful they
are, the detail they even pay to picking the words they choose to even
advance discussion of the matter, least they be branded "kooks."

It will be exciting when we are even able to grasp the smallest detail of
the functioning of all this...

John

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 09:17:18 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote:

> John Smith wrote:
>> Quite factually, I agree with you, whether you were just kidding or not...
> 
> I thought the multiple meanings of, "It's just a matter of time.",
> was humorous.
> 
> Consider that the complete quantum state of a particle could be
> teleported to Mars and back to Earth without suffering the speed
> of light delay. This has already been demonstrated in the physics
> lab. Unfortunately, all quantum states must necessarily remain
> unknown until the complete quantum state is teleported back to Earth.



Article: 216520 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Me <Me@shadow.orgs>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <Me-26515D.13121820082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <1124578556.103105.277990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Me-02E309.10024921082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:01:30 GMT

In article <1124578556.103105.277990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
 jgboyles@aol.com wrote:

>  By the way, are you an Amateur Radio Operator?
> Gary N4AST
> 

Since 1964


Me


Article: 216521 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: VF > 1.0???
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 18:27:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1124667027_521@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1124494341_3289@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <69197$43067cb0$97d55936$20978@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.21.00.48.42.517161@gmail.com> <1124596185_499@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <pan.2005.08.21.04.13.13.122335@gmail.com> <1124633995_1041@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <wYidnTDVD4HufZXeRVn-3A@comcast.com>

Ham op wrote:
> Ah Ha!  The identical twin particles and information sharing at 
> velocities faster than light. Hmmm ....

Duuuuhhhh, unknown quantum states cannot share information.

>> Unfortunately, all quantum states must necessarily remain
>> unknown until the complete quantum state is teleported back to Earth.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216522 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 21:17:50 -0700
Message-ID: <11gikff7omn1mba@corp.supernews.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>

dansawyeror wrote:
> All,
> 
> I have been using an 80 meter loaded vertical for a couple of years with 
> moderate success. The ground system is a dozen 'untuned' radials 40 or 
> so feet laying on the ground. The feed line is about 100 feet of RG-8 
> coax. The SWR in the shack is about 1.1 to 1.
> 
> I have done some research on the antenna and based on it parameters it 
> should have a radiation resistance of about 4 Ohms. This says that the 
> coil and ground are absorbing on the order of 45 Ohms. This is 10db 
> performance loss.
> 
> I have limited space and the most common solutions are not available to 
> me. From a practical perspective it would seem to me that building a 40 
> foot center feed loaded dipole and putting it in the attic or on the 
> roof would probably perform somewhat better.
 >
 > Is this a reasonable assumption?
 >

I'm not sure you can count on that. You'd still lose some in a 
matching/loading network, there'd be a lot of ground loss because of the 
low height, and absorption of some of the power from conductors in the 
house might occur. It wouldn't hurt to try, but leave your vertical up.

> Would burying the radials and connecting them to several 4 square foot 
> buried screens substantially help the ground system?

Just about anything you can do to increase the conductivity of the 
ground system, particularly close to the antenna, will help. Using 
screen is one thing. Burying the radials won't help. Adding more radials 
and making them longer will help. Unfortunately, making a few radials 
longer doesn't do much, and adding a bunch of short radials doesn't do 
much either -- you really have to do both to have a big effect. If 
possible, connect to any other nearby buried conductors such as metallic 
water pipes.

The other thing you can do to improve the efficiency is to increase the 
radiation resistance of the antenna. You can do this of course by 
increasing the height of the antenna. Moving the loading coil upward 
will help, too, although you'll need more inductance. (The coil still 
won't be a major part of the overall loss, though.) A top hat is better 
yet. You can also increase the radiation resistance by making your 
antenna fatter. Use multiple wires in parallel, spaced about as far as 
you can, either along side each other, or fanned out, converging at the 
bottom.

Finally, if you've got room, you can improve your overall efficiency by 
about 3 dB by putting in another identical antenna/ground system 
somewhere nearby and connecting the two in parallel.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216523 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Frank" <ve6cb@nospam.telus.net>
References: <CqCdnVso65gby5TeRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
Subject: Re: Off topic request for info
Message-ID: <PKkOe.234728$on1.143831@clgrps13>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:50:39 GMT

> As I am getting closer to retirement I have been thinking about buying a 
> used spectrum analyzer since I will not have access to one at work. 
> Unfortunately I am not familiar with all the models from say 5 to 15 years 
> ago.  Is there a good reference describing the different HP/Agilent, 
> Tektronix, etc. models and which are good and which to avoid.  A quick 
> look on Ebay shows HP 4195A, 8561E, 8562A, 8562B, 8563E,8565A, 
> 8568B,8569B, 8591E, 8593E, and 8594E. Similarly for Tektronix 492P, 494P, 
> 495P, 495A, and 2755P.  Is there some kind of a used buyers guide 
> available.  I understand spectrum analyzers at a moderate level and 
> realize the differences between frequency range, external mixers, dynamic 
> range, bandwidth etc. but finding the specs in a manner that makes them 
> comparable is hard.  Thanks for any advice.
>
> 73, Larry W0QE

Never seen a buyers guide for spectrum analyzers.  They all seem to have 
about the same dynamic range.  The factors that really drive price are upper 
frequency range, tracking YIG filters, and selectivity.  Do you really need 
26.5 GHz, and a 10 Hz IF filter, if not you could probably save a lot with a 
2.7 GHz upper limit.  Then there is the HP analyzers that use the 141T 
storage display, that can be purchased for a very low price.  I have seen 
many at Dayton.  I would never buy a storage display without seeing it in 
operation though.  Anritsu also has a nice line of analyzers.

I would use www.tucker.com or www.tesequity.com as a guide to the prices you 
could expect to pay.  There are many other used test equipment dealers.

73,

Frank 




Article: 216524 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Frank" <ve6cb@nospam.telus.net>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Message-ID: <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:44:16 GMT

> Frank,
>
> The coil measures about 60 uH. The antenna is elevated about 3 feet on a 
> short tripod. The radials angle down the tripod legs and then out.
>
> The coil is about 4 inchs in diameter, number 12, wound on a fiberglass 
> form. It is centerloaded. I am looking at it accross the yard, it is about 
> 6 inches long. It is would with about a point .5 pitch. Calculations for a 
> 1:1 pitch predict a Q of about 450.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan

Thanks for the info Dan.  From your comments the radials appear to be 
parallel with the tripod legs to ground level, and then continue at ground 
level for the rest of their length.  What is the angle of the tripod legs? 
I agree with comments about adding a horizontal wire to the top of the 
vertical; it will probably be easier than a capacity hat.  I am overloaded 
with work at the moment, but would like to attempt a model in a week or so 
when I have less work.

73,

Frank 




Article: 216525 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: Off topic request for info
From: Ed <Huckleberry_REMOVE_@bigvalley.net>
References: <CqCdnVso65gby5TeRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Xns96BA6FD732717spectrumhogstarbandn@207.106.93.175>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:58:09 GMT

> As I am getting closer to retirement I have been thinking about 
> buying a used spectrum analyzer since I will not have access to 
> one at work.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with all the 
> models from say 5 to 15 years ago.  Is there a good reference 
> describing the different HP/Agilent, Tektronix, etc. models and 
> which are good and which to avoid.  A quick look on Ebay shows 
> HP 4195A, 8561E, 8562A, 8562B, 8563E,8565A, 8568B,8569B, 8591E, 
> 8593E, and 8594E. Similarly for Tektronix 492P, 494P, 495P, 
> 495A, and 2755P.  Is there some kind of a used buyers guide 
> available.  I understand spectrum analyzers at a moderate level 
> and realize the differences between frequency range, external 
> mixers, dynamic range, bandwidth etc. but finding the specs in a 
> manner that makes them comparable is hard.  Thanks for any advice.


   Larry,  can't really offer any guidelines to your search, but wanted to 
mention that you should add IFR   model  A7550 to your list.  I have used 
these for many years prior to retirement and they are a great instrument.  
Every so often I see one going quite cheap on Ebay.


   Ed   K7AAT


Article: 216526 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Me <Me@shadow.orgs>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <Me-26515D.13121820082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <1124578556.103105.277990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <Me-02E309.10024921082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <1124662096.856185.141310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <Me-4764FD.10152022082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:13:59 GMT

In article <1124662096.856185.141310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
 jgboyles@aol.com wrote:

> Me wrote:
> > In article <1124578556.103105.277990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >  jgboyles@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >  By the way, are you an Amateur Radio Operator?
> > > Gary N4AST
> > >
> >
> > Since 1964
> >
> >
> > Me
> 
>   Well Me, as for me, Amateur since 1963, professional radio engineer,
> never.  I did install some cb antennas during the early 1970's and got
> paid, so I may be a professional antenna installer?  Hope by these acts
> I didn't give up my Amateur status.  Was in college at the time and did
> not have much $$.  Why don't you give your call?
> Gary N4AST
> 

I am available on 14292.0Khz (20 Meters) daytime, during the winter 
months ( Sept - May) and 3840Khz (75 meters) most evenings after 10Pm 
local....

Stop by for a visit sometime.....

Me


Article: 216527 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Me <Me@shadow.orgs>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1124486709.945064.307680@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <Me-26515D.13121820082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <1124578556.103105.277990@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <Me-02E309.10024921082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <AoSdnfhDQY-OQpXeRVn-rQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Me-A4B9BE.10155922082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:14:38 GMT

In article <AoSdnfhDQY-OQpXeRVn-rQ@comcast.com>,
 Ham op <hamop@comcast.net> wrote:

> Awe! A newcomer!
> 
> You must be QCWA*2 minimum to post on this list.  :-)

says who......


Me


Article: 216528 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Me <Me@shadow.orgs>
Subject: Re: Off topic request for info
References: <CqCdnVso65gby5TeRVn-qQ@comcast.com>
Message-ID: <Me-070E64.10200122082005@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:18:39 GMT

In article <CqCdnVso65gby5TeRVn-qQ@comcast.com>,
 Larry Benko <lbenko@comcast.net> wrote:

> As I am getting closer to retirement I have been thinking about 
> buying a used spectrum analyzer since I will not have access to 
> one at work.  Unfortunately I am not familiar with all the 
> models from say 5 to 15 years ago.  Is there a good reference 
> describing the different HP/Agilent, Tektronix, etc. models and 
> which are good and which to avoid.  A quick look on Ebay shows 
> HP 4195A, 8561E, 8562A, 8562B, 8563E,8565A, 8568B,8569B, 8591E, 
> 8593E, and 8594E. Similarly for Tektronix 492P, 494P, 495P, 
> 495A, and 2755P.  Is there some kind of a used buyers guide 
> available.  I understand spectrum analyzers at a moderate level 
> and realize the differences between frequency range, external 
> mixers, dynamic range, bandwidth etc. but finding the specs in a 
> manner that makes them comparable is hard.  Thanks for any advice.
> 
> 73, Larry W0QE

My "rule of thumb" has always been.... HP for spectrum analyzers,
and Tektronix for Oscopes..... Fluke for Dvm's and Lambda for Power 
Supplies.


Me


Article: 216529 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 11:39:26 -0700
Message-ID: <11gk6v0r4tulk90@corp.supernews.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net> <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12>

Frank wrote:
> . . .
> I agree with comments about adding a horizontal wire to the top of the 
> vertical; it will probably be easier than a capacity hat.  I am overloaded 
> with work at the moment, but would like to attempt a model in a week or so 
> when I have less work.

Take a look also at a tee type arrangement. That is, a horizontal wire 
with the tip of the vertical connected at or near its center. It might 
have some advantages over connecting the wire's end to the vertical. But 
of course it might be more involved to construct.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216530 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison)
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:57:57 -0500
Message-ID: <2776-430A3C55-932@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com>

Dan, KB0QIL wrote:
"From a practical perspective it would seem to me that building a 40
foot crnter loaded dipole and putting it in the sttic or on the roof
would probably perform somewhat better."

The roof or attic may be noisy receiving locations.

The ionospheric spot which effectively reflects a high frequency signal
to a point beyond the horizon is variable so that the received signal
direction varies from the true bearing of the transmitter, The received
signal elevation angle also varies from that predicted by the assumed
layer height for any given path length, and may change from instant to
instant.

The differences between predicted and actual azimuth and elevation
angles may at any momement be several degrees. These differences make
high frequency direction finding complicated, but results may be good
enough for some pracical purposes. Optimum vertical and horizontal
angles are sought in directional antenna design but enough beamwidth is
needed to accommodate  
the angular variations which occur.

Over sea water, ground wave propagation is good and loss is low as
compared with propagation over earth. Frequencies up to about 5 MHz are
used for communications beyond the line of sight between ships and
between ships and shore. These frequencies are also used for tropical
broadcasting among islands.

For ionospheric reflection to near spots beyond the line of sight, near
vertical incidence reflections are used. The frequency must be below the
maximum usable frequency for vertical incidence at the transmitting
site.

For ground wave propagation a vertical transmitting antenna is used.

Horizontally polarized antennas are often used for sky wave signals
because reflection from the ionosphere makes equal strength components,
horizontally polarized and vertically polarized, from the incident wave,
regardless of its initial polarization.

Most disturbing noise is that generated within ground wave range of the
receiving antenna. It is vertically polarized.There is no ground wave
propagation of horizontally polarized waves. Thus, a horizontally
polarized receiving antenna ignores much of the available noise.
However, it receives as much signal from the sky wave as a vertically
polarized antenna would.

If a single antenna is to be used for both transmitting and receiving a
shy wave, a forizontally polarized antenna  may be the better choice due
to its noise rejection. See "Radio Antenna Engineering" by Edmund A.
Laport for details.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI 
  



Article: 216531 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:46:57 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <dedh4h$op2$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <2776-430A3C55-932@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net>


"Richard Harrison" <richardharrison@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:2776-430A3C55-932@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
> Dan, KB0QIL wrote:
> "From a practical perspective it would seem to me that building a 40
> foot crnter loaded dipole and putting it in the sttic or on the roof
> would probably perform somewhat better."
>
> The roof or attic may be noisy receiving locations.
>
> The ionospheric spot which effectively reflects a high frequency
signal
> to a point beyond the horizon is variable so that the received
signal
> direction varies from the true bearing of the transmitter, The
received
> signal elevation angle also varies from that predicted by the
assumed
> layer height for any given path length, and may change from instant
to
> instant.
>
> The differences between predicted and actual azimuth and elevation
> angles may at any momement be several degrees. These differences
make
> high frequency direction finding complicated, but results may be
good
> enough for some pracical purposes. Optimum vertical and horizontal
> angles are sought in directional antenna design but enough beamwidth
is
> needed to accommodate
> the angular variations which occur.
>
> Over sea water, ground wave propagation is good and loss is low as
> compared with propagation over earth. Frequencies up to about 5 MHz
are
> used for communications beyond the line of sight between ships and
> between ships and shore. These frequencies are also used for
tropical
> broadcasting among islands.
>
> For ionospheric reflection to near spots beyond the line of sight,
near
> vertical incidence reflections are used. The frequency must be below
the
> maximum usable frequency for vertical incidence at the transmitting
> site.
>
> For ground wave propagation a vertical transmitting antenna is used.
>
> Horizontally polarized antennas are often used for sky wave signals
> because reflection from the ionosphere makes equal strength
components,
> horizontally polarized and vertically polarized, from the incident
wave,
> regardless of its initial polarization.
>
> Most disturbing noise is that generated within ground wave range of
the
> receiving antenna. It is vertically polarized.There is no ground
wave
> propagation of horizontally polarized waves. Thus, a horizontally
> polarized receiving antenna ignores much of the available noise.
> However, it receives as much signal from the sky wave as a
vertically
> polarized antenna would.
>
> If a single antenna is to be used for both transmitting and
receiving a
> shy wave, a forizontally polarized antenna  may be the better choice
due
> to its noise rejection. See "Radio Antenna Engineering" by Edmund A.
> Laport for details.
>
> Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI
>
================================

Richard,

I am impressed by your logical descriptions and explanations of
skywave and groundwave propagation. You are more than convincing. No
doubt reinforced from practical experience. It all makes sense.
Something much needed on these newsgroups.

I notice you do not treat the works of so-called 'experts' as bibles
but as a means of further study.
----
Reg, G4FGQ




Article: 216532 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com>
Subject: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:59:28 GMT

I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
amount of windings.

According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.

Anyone know anything about this?

Dan/W4NTI




Article: 216533 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:34:59 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>


"Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com> wrote in message
news:4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many
windings
> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not
the
> amount of windings.
>
> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>
> Anyone know anything about this?
>
> Dan/W4NTI
>
===================================
Dan, I am unable to help you.

Because, in common with most other people, I havn't the foggiest idea
what a TA-33SR is.

Questioners would do better by not depending on other people's
imagination.  It takes only a few seconds to provide a little more
essential information. If you can't find the time then it can't matter
very much anyway.
----
Reg.




Article: 216534 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.22.22.45.31.74927@gmail.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 15:45:32 -0700

Dan:

Look here:
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/mosley/ta33sr

at the files:
00readme.txt (72 bytes)
ta33sr.pdf (322 KB)

John 

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:59:28 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
> amount of windings.
> 
> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> Dan/W4NTI



Article: 216535 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:04:25 -0000
Message-ID: <11gkmfpfhu29522@corp.supernews.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

>> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings
>> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the
>> amount of windings.
>>
>> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>>
>> Anyone know anything about this?
>>
>> Dan/W4NTI
>>
>===================================
>Dan, I am unable to help you.
>
>Because, in common with most other people, I havn't the foggiest idea
>what a TA-33SR is.
>
>Questioners would do better by not depending on other people's
>imagination.  It takes only a few seconds to provide a little more
>essential information. If you can't find the time then it can't matter
>very much anyway.

Reg, even to me (a relative newbie) "Mosley TA-33SR" provides all of
the information needed to identify what Dan is talking about.  A very
brief Google identifies as a triband trap beam.  I have little doubt
that anyone who has ever owned one (and is thus likely to have the
direct information that Dan is looking for) would recognize it from
his description with no further description being required.

Dan - since Mosely's manual doesn't mention such a choke, and the
instruction sheet indicates a direct attachment of the coax to the
driven-element feedpoint terminals, I doubt that the details of the
choke are terribly critical.  You could probably use any of the plans
on the net for an air-wound coaxial choke-balun.  One plan I see uses
18-21 feet of coax, close-wound solenoid-style on a 5" PVC form
(stated to be good for 160-10 meters). 

Another site (http://www.bcdxc.org/balun_information.htm#Ed,%20WA2SRQ)
has a table of air-core balun impedances, as a function of both
frequency and construction (turn count and diameter).  This chart
suggests to me that 4 turns, 6 5/8" solenoid-wound might be a good
option for you, as its impedance peaks at around the 15-meter band and
is 500 ohms or better between 10 and 20 meters.

Some folks seem to prefer solenoid-wound air baluns, others prefer
scramble-wound.  There seems to be a fair bit of disagreement as to
which style works better, and why.

The other choices are to use a different sort of balun (e.g. a W2DU
ferrite-bead choke), or none at all.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


Article: 216536 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
Subject: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:08:43 -0400
Message-ID: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>

How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
choke balun approaches.







Article: 216537 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.22.23.18.10.809849@gmail.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:18:15 -0700


I was thinking more of contacting larry at:

wa9vrh@mtco.com

... my thinking being, since he supplied the manual and his email, he most
likely would have seen that question, owned the beam and familiar with the
construction of the choke/balun...

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:59:28 +0000, Dan/W4NTI wrote:

> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
> amount of windings.
> 
> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> Dan/W4NTI



Article: 216538 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:20:33 -0000
Message-ID: <11gkne1npu7e5e@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>

>How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
>transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
>choke balun approaches.

One possible method comes to mind... use an RF current probe to see
how much RF is actually flowing on the outside of your feedline.  I've
seen plans for such probes, made from a clamp-on ferrite choke core
and winding (making a simple RF transformer) plus a diode, cap, and
meter.

In order to distinguish conducted RF (which the balun would be
expected to be able to stop) from induced RF from the antenna itself
(which would probably go right around the balun) you might want to
try disconnecting the antenna itself from the output of the balun, and
substituting an equivalent resistance/reactance at the frequency of
interest.  Push a few watts into the "dummy load", run the current
probe down the feedline from the balun to your rig, and see what the
peak current is.  Repeat at multiple frequencies, and (if practical)
with different feedline lengths.  Using a half-wavelength-long coaxial
feedline would probably maximize the sensitivity of the test, as it
would present a low RF impedance on the outside of the coax at the
"bottom" of the current balun.

Repeat with other current baluns and compare.

To be complete, I suppose that you'd also want to measure the
temperature of each balun before and after a high-power test, to try
to get some feeling for the amount of loss in the balun itself.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


Article: 216539 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Jerry Martes" <j.jmartes@verizon.net>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <gltOe.11211$M3.6524@trnddc05>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:37:48 GMT


"Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com> wrote in message 
news:1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET...
> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
> choke balun approaches.

  Fred

  I dont have the skills nor knowledge to tell you how to test the choke 
balun.   I do have some experience with testing of my home made choke 
baluns.
  I made connection to the shield of the coax that is surrounded by the 
"choke balun", and measured the impedance across it.  My reasoning was that 
the major objective of the balun was to present a high impedance to current 
along the outside of the coax.
  It occurres to me that my reasoning might be invalid, since it seems too 
obvious, and you already know the "impedance" test isnt adequet.

                      Jerry 




Article: 216540 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.22.23.43.51.441986@gmail.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:43:53 -0700

Fred:

With a toroid core, using the manufacturers data on uh/mh per number of
turns, al factor and such, should allow you to compute the inductance and
come to a value of the impedance that inductance poses at the operating
freq(s) in question...

Major problem I see is a resonance(s) occurring with feedline length and
the inductance chosen, but even that could be designed out with a pencil
and paper...  the physical testing you are inquiring about has my interest
also...

John

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:08:43 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:

> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
> choke balun approaches.



Article: 216541 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 16:44:05 -0700
Message-ID: <11gkoq8aqf7ik68@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>


Fred W4JLE wrote:
 > How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
 > transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
 > choke balun approaches.
 >

You can measure the impedance by shorting the input conductors together 
and the output conductors together. Then connect the input conductors to 
one terminal of an impedance measuring device such as an antenna 
analyzer or impedance bridge, and the output conductors to the other 
terminal. An impedance of around 500 - 1000 ohms is generally adequate.

If you want to measure its effectiveness in place, you can construct a 
current probe like the one shown in Fig. 12 of 
http://www.eznec.com/Amateur/Articles/Baluns.pdf. It'll give you a 
quantitative measure of the feedline current. You can use a snap-on 
split core for convenience. The value at the choke should be very low, 
but it might increase considerably about a quarter wavelength down the 
line due to induced common mode current. The solution to that is to 
insert another choke balun at that point.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216542 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 18:46:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1124754555_381@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>

Fred W4JLE wrote:
> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
> choke balun approaches.

I have a toroidal pick-up coil slipped over my coax in the
shack to monitor the magnitude of common-mode currents.
That tells me how chokes, etc., are performing.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216543 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:59:24 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <dedoss$fah$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <11gkmfpfhu29522@corp.supernews.com>


"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:11gkmfpfhu29522@corp.supernews.com...
> >> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how
many windings
> >> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but
not the
> >> amount of windings.
> >>
> >> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
> >>
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >>
> >> Dan/W4NTI
> >>
> >===================================
> >Dan, I am unable to help you.
> >
> >Because, in common with most other people, I havn't the foggiest
idea
> >what a TA-33SR is.
> >
> >Questioners would do better by not depending on other people's
> >imagination.  It takes only a few seconds to provide a little more
> >essential information. If you can't find the time then it can't
matter
> >very much anyway.
>
> Reg, even to me (a relative newbie) "Mosley TA-33SR" provides all of
> the information needed to identify what Dan is talking about.  A
very
> brief Google identifies as a triband trap beam.  I have little doubt
> that anyone who has ever owned one (and is thus likely to have the
> direct information that Dan is looking for) would recognize it from
> his description with no further description being required.
>
> Dan - since Mosely's manual doesn't mention such a choke, and the
> instruction sheet indicates a direct attachment of the coax to the
> driven-element feedpoint terminals, I doubt that the details of the
> choke are terribly critical.  You could probably use any of the
plans
> on the net for an air-wound coaxial choke-balun.  One plan I see
uses
> 18-21 feet of coax, close-wound solenoid-style on a 5" PVC form
> (stated to be good for 160-10 meters).
>
> Another site
(http://www.bcdxc.org/balun_information.htm#Ed,%20WA2SRQ)
> has a table of air-core balun impedances, as a function of both
> frequency and construction (turn count and diameter).  This chart
> suggests to me that 4 turns, 6 5/8" solenoid-wound might be a good
> option for you, as its impedance peaks at around the 15-meter band
and
> is 500 ohms or better between 10 and 20 meters.
>
> Some folks seem to prefer solenoid-wound air baluns, others prefer
> scramble-wound.  There seems to be a fair bit of disagreement as to
> which style works better, and why.
>
> The other choices are to use a different sort of balun (e.g. a W2DU
> ferrite-bead choke), or none at all.
>
> -- 
> Dave Platt
==================================

Dave, having learned from you, a newbie, not from the enquirer, what a
TA-33SR is, and having inspected the website you specify, I am a
little wiser from reading the baffle-gab.

I agree with your recomendations. Just get a hank of coax, suspend it
in the feedline and away you go.

But it may be more mechanically convenient and electrically better to
wind a few turns of coax or Radio Shack twin speaker wire around a
ferrite toroidal core.

Or possibly do without a balun altogether.  Try it and see what
happens.  It's so easy to do.
----
Reg.




Article: 216544 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: John Smith <assemblywizard@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:19:29 -0700

Fred:

As my last post gave away, my chokes are constructed on math and
observation in practical work... (well, prayer too <grin>)

I see roy is recommending 10x the impedance of the feedline (coax?) for
the choke/balun, minimum (I am guessing here a bit), he obviously knows
what he is speaking about, however, at 160m when you are struck with the
physical dimensions of the choke/balun needed--well, at those times I have
accepted a 5:1 ratio of choke/balun impedance to feedline impedance...

... but then, I am here to learn ...

John


On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:08:43 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:

> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
> choke balun approaches.



Article: 216545 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: BillJ <w3fi@nwboronet.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <wPuOe.116$Bv2.1079@eagle.america.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:18:30 -0400

Dan/W4NTI wrote:
> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
> amount of windings.
> 
> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?
> 
> Dan/W4NTI
> 
> 
My TA-33 manual calls for 5 turns at 6 inch diameter
Bill, W3FI


Article: 216546 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <1124753999.711129.26180@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:23:39 -0400
Message-ID: <28fe0$430a7ad8$97d55b95$26031@ALLTEL.NET>

Thanks to all for the information. Roy I particularly wanted to thank you
for the copy of your article from the antenna compendium.

I appreciate all the input from others as well. I was planning to do a
number of tests with ferrite beads and air coil baluns.

The data accumulated will be presented here for all to peruse. Thanks again
guys!




Article: 216547 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <n40lg193fcipg6nna0740fev0aoq4hm6cn@4ax.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <wPuOe.116$Bv2.1079@eagle.america.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:57:31 -0400

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:18:30 -0400, BillJ <w3fi@nwboronet.com> wrote:

>Dan/W4NTI wrote:
>> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
>> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
>> amount of windings.
>> 
>> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>> 
>> Anyone know anything about this?
>> 
>> Dan/W4NTI
>> 
>> 
>My TA-33 manual calls for 5 turns at 6 inch diameter
>Bill, W3FI

That your TA-33 manual calls for a 5-turn 6" diameter balun fabbed
>from coax is welcome news, Bill, Mr. Mosely must have gotten religion
lately. I  had a 33 when they were first made available, but no balun
was included. So I had a talk with Mr. Mosely (I've forgotten his
first name) and asked him why no balun. He became irate when I
admonished him for excluding the balun. He said his antennas were
designed to not need a balun, and he admonished me for claiming they
needed a balun to avoid pattern distortion due to unwanted radiation
>from the feedline. He kept that same erroneous viewpoint for as long
as I know, until your manual now calls for a balun. Will wonders never
cease!

Walt, W2DU


Article: 216548 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:33:31 -0400

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:19:29 -0700, John Smith
<assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote:

>Fred:
>
>As my last post gave away, my chokes are constructed on math and
>observation in practical work... (well, prayer too <grin>)
>
>I see roy is recommending 10x the impedance of the feedline (coax?) for
>the choke/balun, minimum (I am guessing here a bit), he obviously knows
>what he is speaking about, however, at 160m when you are struck with the
>physical dimensions of the choke/balun needed--well, at those times I have
>accepted a 5:1 ratio of choke/balun impedance to feedline impedance...
>
>... but then, I am here to learn ...
>
>John
>
>
>On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:08:43 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:
>
>> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test a
>> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several different
>> choke balun approaches.

Fred, Roy's method is fine, but here's the second way  I perform the
test with baluns constructed with ferrite beads surrounding a
transmission line. However, it does require two baluns.

To begin we connect the two baluns back-to-back, i.e. connect the
output of the first to the output of the second, and loading the
normally unbalanced input terminals of the second balun (now the
output) with a 50-ohm resistor. 

Next, feed a signal into the input of the first balun and measure the
voltage between the outer surface of the line feeding the input of the
first balun and the outer surface of the unbalanced input terminals at
the output of the second balun. In the ideal balun the voltage between
these two points would be zero.

Next, disconnect the connections between the two baluns, and reconnect
them, reversing the connections. Now repeat the voltage measurement
between the same points as in the previous measurements. 

In the ideal balun the voltage now measured will also be zero. 

However, with a real balun, the voltage between the two points
specified will usually be zero when the connection between the two
baluns is such that the outer conductors and inner conductors of both
baluns are directly connected, respectively.

But the real test of the baluns comes when the outer conductor of the
first balun is connected to the inner conductor of the second balun,
and the outer conductor of the first balun is connected to the inner
conductor the second balun. The lower the voltage obtained in this
condition, the better the balun. With a perfect balun the voltage will
again be zero, but if the effect of the balun is zero the voltgage
measured across the specified point  will equal the input voltage. 

The ratio of the voltage at the input of the balun to the voltage
appearing at the points specified above is twice the ratio of the
forward voltage to the common mode voltage that would appear on the
outside surface of the feed line when that balun is used in practice.

Walt, W2DU


Article: 216549 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Pat Cox <peacox@gloryroad.net>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:55:26 -0400
Message-ID: <430A901E.42BAB826@gloryroad.net>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <wPuOe.116$Bv2.1079@eagle.america.net> <n40lg193fcipg6nna0740fev0aoq4hm6cn@4ax.com>

Mr. Moseley's first name was Carl. He was known on the air as "the Old Man
Himself." I worked him on 40 cw when I was a novice in 1967. He has probably been
a silent key for 30 years or longer. I don't remember his call but I have his card
in my card file. K4AVO

Walter Maxwell wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:18:30 -0400, BillJ <w3fi@nwboronet.com> wrote:
>
> >Dan/W4NTI wrote:
> >> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings
> >> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the
> >> amount of windings.
> >>
> >> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
> >>
> >> Anyone know anything about this?
> >>
> >> Dan/W4NTI
> >>
> >>
> >My TA-33 manual calls for 5 turns at 6 inch diameter
> >Bill, W3FI
>
> That your TA-33 manual calls for a 5-turn 6" diameter balun fabbed
> from coax is welcome news, Bill, Mr. Mosely must have gotten religion
> lately. I  had a 33 when they were first made available, but no balun
> was included. So I had a talk with Mr. Mosely (I've forgotten his
> first name) and asked him why no balun. He became irate when I
> admonished him for excluding the balun. He said his antennas were
> designed to not need a balun, and he admonished me for claiming they
> needed a balun to avoid pattern distortion due to unwanted radiation
> from the feedline. He kept that same erroneous viewpoint for as long
> as I know, until your manual now calls for a balun. Will wonders never
> cease!
>
> Walt, W2DU



Article: 216550 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <t54lg11tm9c60i8l3oilqcjla18hjq9itp@4ax.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <wPuOe.116$Bv2.1079@eagle.america.net> <n40lg193fcipg6nna0740fev0aoq4hm6cn@4ax.com> <430A901E.42BAB826@gloryroad.net>
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:00:02 -0400

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:55:26 -0400, Pat Cox <peacox@gloryroad.net>
wrote:

>Mr. Moseley's first name was Carl. He was known on the air as "the Old Man
>Himself." I worked him on 40 cw when I was a novice in 1967. He has probably been
>a silent key for 30 years or longer. I don't remember his call but I have his card
>in my card file. K4AVO

Yes, Pat, the name Carl came to me only a few minutes after I posted,
you know, the Alzheimers syndrome.

Walt, W2DU

>> >My TA-33 manual calls for 5 turns at 6 inch diameter
>> >Bill, W3FI
>>
>> That your TA-33 manual calls for a 5-turn 6" diameter balun fabbed
>> from coax is welcome news, Bill, Mr. Mosely must have gotten religion
>> lately. I  had a 33 when they were first made available, but no balun
>> was included. So I had a talk with Mr. Mosely (I've forgotten his
>> first name) and asked him why no balun. He became irate when I
>> admonished him for excluding the balun. He said his antennas were
>> designed to not need a balun, and he admonished me for claiming they
>> needed a balun to avoid pattern distortion due to unwanted radiation
>> from the feedline. He kept that same erroneous viewpoint for as long
>> as I know, until your manual now calls for a balun. Will wonders never
>> cease!
>>
>> Walt, W2DU



Article: 216551 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison)
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:57:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1850-430A9E91-888@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

Reg, G4FGQ wrote:
"There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
transmission line.

The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
120 degree intervals.

Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
omnidirectional?"

The question is easy, I think. The horizontal 1/4-wave elements have
nulls off their tips, so they can`t produce a perfect omnidirectional
pattern.

Not knowing when to quit, I`ll also speculate that at distant points
>from the antenna, the total phase from two elements will produce a total
phase difference of 180-degrees which consists of a total of radiated
field degree difference and path distance degree difference. Maybe more
nulls. I wrote "two elements", because I`m thinking of a dipole in a V
configuration with the 3rd element perpendicular to the dipole as being
more or less along for the ride. Perhaps that`s an oversimplification.

Someone likely has a program which will model Reg`s 3-phase antenna. I
don`t, and I have no experience with 3-phase antennas. I`ve done 3-phase
circuit problems and recognize the balanced load, even if the antennas
are unbalanced.

The system is symmetrical, so each of the loads (antenna elements) takes
the same power. The total load power is 3 times the power of a single
element.

The loads are resonant, so (cos theta) is unity. The elements look like
resistors. Element power is element volts times element amps.

The load is equivalent to a Y-connection.. So, the line to line voltage
is the square root of 3 (1.732) times the volts between the line and
neutral.

Reg also wanted to know the impedance of the antenna, I believe, but its
numerical value depends on construction, height of the elements, their
size, and coupling, if any, to their surroundings. 35 ohms might have
been a good guess.

Voltage to current ratio of the elements gives their resistance.

The volts or amps of the balanced 3-phases can be represented by three
equal arrows separated by 120-degrees. Their instantaneous values always
total zero.

The idea of a polyphase antenna is interesting but I don`t see what
justifies its increased complexity, unless it happens to place nulls
exactly where needed for required protection of broadcasters already on
the air or permitted when a new broadcaster is seeking accommodation. In
that case, the elements would most likely be vertical to launch a decent
ground wave.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI



Article: 216552 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:27:12 -0700
Message-ID: <11gl9d35r5mhc97@corp.supernews.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net> <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12> <11gk6v0r4tulk90@corp.supernews.com> <430A84D1.1000005@comcast.net>

To determine the horizontal wire current, download the free EZNEC demo 
>from http://eznec.com. That's exactly the kind of thing it's good for.

If you put a single horizontal wire out to make an L shape, the wire 
radiates a considerable amount. Being as low as it is, a lot of the 
power will be dissipated in the ground, and only a small fraction will 
be radiated at a low elevation angle. But if you connect to the center 
of a horizontal wire to make a T shape, the fields from the two halves 
of the horizontal wire will nearly cancel, so it'll radiate very little. 
Its main effect, like a capacitive top hat, will be to even out the 
current in your vertical wire, which will raise the radiation resistance 
and therefore the efficiency.

EZNEC or a similar program will quickly show you the differences in 
field strength in various directions for the antenna as it is, and with 
either of the top loading configurations.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

dansawyeror wrote:
> Roy,
> 
> Thanks. This might be feasible. The site would support 50 foot wire from 
> the tip. At 500 watts what would the current in the horizontal leg be? 
> In other words what is the minimum effective gage?
> 
> What is the purpose of this leg? Is it capacitive or does it begin to 
> look like something else. What are it directional characteristics? 
> Dipoles nodes are perpendicular while long wire nodes are parallel.
> 
> Dan
> 
> Roy Lewallen wrote:
> 
>> Frank wrote:
>>
>>> . . .
>>> I agree with comments about adding a horizontal wire to the top of 
>>> the vertical; it will probably be easier than a capacity hat.  I am 
>>> overloaded with work at the moment, but would like to attempt a model 
>>> in a week or so when I have less work.
>>
>>
>>
>> Take a look also at a tee type arrangement. That is, a horizontal wire 
>> with the tip of the vertical connected at or near its center. It might 
>> have some advantages over connecting the wire's end to the vertical. 
>> But of course it might be more involved to construct.
>>
>> Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216553 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 21:30:03 -0700
Message-ID: <11gl9ie7o80256c@corp.supernews.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <wPuOe.116$Bv2.1079@eagle.america.net> <n40lg193fcipg6nna0740fev0aoq4hm6cn@4ax.com> <430A901E.42BAB826@gloryroad.net> <t54lg11tm9c60i8l3oilqcjla18hjq9itp@4ax.com>

I recall helping put up a beam for the Denver Radio Club station in 
about 1972 or 3, and one of the instructions was to wind the coax into a 
choke at the feedpoint. At the time I didn't understand quite why or 
what it did, but it was there in the instructions. Don't recall what 
kind of beam it was, but considering the popularity of the TA33, it 
might well have been that model.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Walter Maxwell wrote:
>>>
>>>That your TA-33 manual calls for a 5-turn 6" diameter balun fabbed
>>>from coax is welcome news, Bill, Mr. Mosely must have gotten religion
>>>lately. I  had a 33 when they were first made available, but no balun
>>>was included. So I had a talk with Mr. Mosely (I've forgotten his
>>>first name) and asked him why no balun. He became irate when I
>>>admonished him for excluding the balun. He said his antennas were
>>>designed to not need a balun, and he admonished me for claiming they
>>>needed a balun to avoid pattern distortion due to unwanted radiation
>>>from the feedline. He kept that same erroneous viewpoint for as long
>>>as I know, until your manual now calls for a balun. Will wonders never
>>>cease!
>>>
>>>Walt, W2DU
> 
> 


Article: 216554 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Mike M. <notme@invalid.email.net>
Subject: Jetstream 2015F coax
Message-ID: <3pplg1913il62fpdor3ftf5sr41q45dlmj@4ax.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:13:36 GMT

Has anyone here tried the Jetstream 2015F coax cable from R&L? Is it
any good for a 50 ft run at 440 MHz?


Article: 216555 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Dick BIRD's (G4ZU) death
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:20:12 +0200
Message-ID: <430aea4c$0$17200$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>

Dick died on August 16th in his house near Carcassonne (South) of France.
Dick, well known in the HAM community, was the creator in the fifties of the 
MINIBEAM and, since, of several innovative antenna designs such as the 
BIRD'S CAGE, the BOW & ARROW (or Jungle Job ) beam....
He was living in France since 1999 using the call F6IDC until 2001.

We will miss him.

F8ND






Article: 216556 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Lee" <lo012a4519@blueyonder.co.uk>
References: <3pplg1913il62fpdor3ftf5sr41q45dlmj@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Jetstream 2015F coax
Message-ID: <1gCOe.10640$jr4.6789@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:46:37 GMT

"Mike M." <notme@invalid.email.net> wrote in message
news:3pplg1913il62fpdor3ftf5sr41q45dlmj@4ax.com...
> Has anyone here tried the Jetstream 2015F coax cable from R&L? Is it
> any good for a 50 ft run at 440 MHz?

R&L ??????

Lee.....




Article: 216557 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: Please help!
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 08:14:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1124802997_993@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1124791726.680838.154290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

andy wrote:
> To get 80, i feel that i need to coil the wire around the fishing
> pole.

You can do that to get 80m, but you will degrade the performance
on the other bands. Probably the best way to get 80m and not
degrade the performance on the other bands is to use a high-Q
base loading coil that can be switched in for 80m and out for
the higher frequencies.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Article: 216558 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "B.Binggeli" <hb9fu@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Baluns
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 15:28:32 +0200
Message-ID: <430B2480.5040006@bluewin.ch>

Sali Werner,
hier noch eine gute Studie über Baluns. (falls nicht schon selbst gefunden)
73 Bruno
http://www.eznec.com/Amateur/Articles/Baluns.pdf


Article: 216559 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: Dick BIRD's (G4ZU) death
Message-ID: <tvcmg1d07ol245q85ud0crf93q1cmhmun2@4ax.com>
References: <430aea4c$0$17200$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:35:50 -0400

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:20:12 +0200, "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>Dick died on August 16th in his house near Carcassonne (South) of France.
>Dick, well known in the HAM community, was the creator in the fifties of the 
>MINIBEAM and, since, of several innovative antenna designs such as the 
>BIRD'S CAGE, the BOW & ARROW (or Jungle Job ) beam....
>He was living in France since 1999 using the call F6IDC until 2001.
>
>We will miss him.
>
>F8ND

Wih all due respect to Dick Bird, isn't  'South of France' in the
Mediterranean?

Walt, W2DU



Article: 216560 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Allodoxaphobia <bit-bucket@config.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Date: 23 Aug 2005 15:31:23 GMT
Message-ID: <slrndgmgab.2e17.bit-bucket@shell.config.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:34:59 +0000 (UTC), Reg Edwards wrote:
>
> "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com> wrote in message
> news:4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many
>> windings are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  
>> but not the amount of windings.
>> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>> Anyone know anything about this?
>>
>> Dan/W4NTI
>>
>===================================
> Dan, I am unable to help you.
>
> Because, in common with most other people, I havn't the foggiest idea
> what a TA-33SR is.

Then, by the criteria set in his question: 
  "Anyone know anything about this?",
you are unqualified to reply to his post -- and, should not have.

Dan, 

As a couple of other fellers stated, I, too, am unconvinced that the
family of 3-el tribanders (the Mosely TA-33, the Cushcraft A3S, etc.)
are very much affected by the presense, or lack of a choke balun.  
I've operated my CC A3S both ways and am unable to distinguish a smidgen
of difference.  

For a multi-element monobander...., well .....

Just insure you've got a "50 ohm source" and a "50 ohm transmission line"
to feed your "50 ohm load" and you should be a happy operator.  At 
least it will work well enough to keep you On The Air, and keep
you off of usenet and out of rraa where publicly anguishing over your 
concerns usually results in abuse by the resident stalkers.

Jonesy
-- 
  Marvin L Jones     | jonz          | W3DHJ  |  linux
   Pueblo, Colorado  |  @ config.com | Jonesy |  OS/2   
    *** Now killfiling all X-Trace: posting.google.com followups 



Article: 216561 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr>
References: <430aea4c$0$17200$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> <tvcmg1d07ol245q85ud0crf93q1cmhmun2@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: Dick BIRD's (G4ZU) death
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:35:41 +0200
Message-ID: <430b424f$0$27427$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>

Sorry my message was not clear enough: Carcassonne is a city in the southern 
part of France and not in the Mediterranean sea !
We use to say in French "au sud de la France" which means " in the southern 
part of  the country" and not "south of the french territory".
F8ND

"Walter Maxwell" <walt@w2du.com> a écrit dans le message de news: 
tvcmg1d07ol245q85ud0crf93q1cmhmun2@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:20:12 +0200, "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>>Dick died on August 16th in his house near Carcassonne (South) of France.
>>Dick, well known in the HAM community, was the creator in the fifties of 
>>the
>>MINIBEAM and, since, of several innovative antenna designs such as the
>>BIRD'S CAGE, the BOW & ARROW (or Jungle Job ) beam....
>>He was living in France since 1999 using the call F6IDC until 2001.
>>
>>We will miss him.
>>
>>F8ND
>
> Wih all due respect to Dick Bird, isn't  'South of France' in the
> Mediterranean?
>
> Walt, W2DU
> 




Article: 216562 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <de5f0i$qjf$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <1850-430A9E91-888@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net>
Subject: Re: 3-phase antenna.
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:45:08 -0400
Message-ID: <13c18$430b44b9$97d55b95$4127@ALLTEL.NET>

The pattern would look like a triangle, so the answer to your question is
no.

> Reg, G4FGQ wrote:
> "There is a 3-phase transmitter feeding a 3-phase antenna via a 3-wire
> transmission line.
>
> The antenna consists of three 1/4-wave horizontal radiators spaced at
> 120 degree intervals.
>
> Is the radiation pattern in the horizontal plane perfectly
> omnidirectional?"




Article: 216563 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net> <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12> <11gk6v0r4tulk90@corp.supernews.com> <430A84D1.1000005@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:49:47 -0400
Message-ID: <50c57$430b45d0$97d55b95$4633@ALLTEL.NET>

I think Roy is referring to a T configuration rather than an upside-down L.
The currents will balance in the T so wire size is limited by physical
considerations rather than electrical. This is just another form of a
capacity hat. The net result is to raise the radiation resistance.

"dansawyeror" <dansawyeror@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:430A84D1.1000005@comcast.net...
> Roy,
>
> Thanks. This might be feasible. The site would support 50 foot wire from
the
> tip. At 500 watts what would the current in the horizontal leg be? In
other
> words what is the minimum effective gage?
>
> What is the purpose of this leg? Is it capacitive or does it begin to look
like
> something else. What are it directional characteristics? Dipoles nodes are
> perpendicular while long wire nodes are parallel.
>
> Dan
>
> Roy Lewallen wrote:
> > Frank wrote:
> >
> >> . . .
> >> I agree with comments about adding a horizontal wire to the top of the
> >> vertical; it will probably be easier than a capacity hat.  I am
> >> overloaded with work at the moment, but would like to attempt a model
> >> in a week or so when I have less work.
> >
> >
> > Take a look also at a tee type arrangement. That is, a horizontal wire
> > with the tip of the vertical connected at or near its center. It might
> > have some advantages over connecting the wire's end to the vertical. But
> > of course it might be more involved to construct.
> >
> > Roy Lewallen, W7EL




Article: 216564 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:03:56 -0400
Message-ID: <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET>

Thank you Walt, my interest is both ferrite bead baluns and coax air core. I
have searched the internet and found a lot of measurements of magnitude and
phase angles for various configurations, unfortunately none of them appear
to agree. I am hoping to come up with a definitive set of tables that the
average guy can use.

The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to daylight,
or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.

I was thinking it might be solved with washers and steel wool. (Grin)


"Walter Maxwell" <walt@w2du.com> wrote in message
news:4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 17:19:29 -0700, John Smith
> <assemblywizard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Fred:
> >
> >As my last post gave away, my chokes are constructed on math and
> >observation in practical work... (well, prayer too <grin>)
> >
> >I see roy is recommending 10x the impedance of the feedline (coax?) for
> >the choke/balun, minimum (I am guessing here a bit), he obviously knows
> >what he is speaking about, however, at 160m when you are struck with the
> >physical dimensions of the choke/balun needed--well, at those times I
have
> >accepted a 5:1 ratio of choke/balun impedance to feedline impedance...
> >
> >... but then, I am here to learn ...
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> >On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 19:08:43 -0400, Fred W4JLE wrote:
> >
> >> How can I test how well a choke balun is performing? I know how to test
a
> >> transformer balun, but am cluless as how I can compare several
different
> >> choke balun approaches.
>
> Fred, Roy's method is fine, but here's the second way  I perform the
> test with baluns constructed with ferrite beads surrounding a
> transmission line. However, it does require two baluns.
>
> To begin we connect the two baluns back-to-back, i.e. connect the
> output of the first to the output of the second, and loading the
> normally unbalanced input terminals of the second balun (now the
> output) with a 50-ohm resistor.
>
> Next, feed a signal into the input of the first balun and measure the
> voltage between the outer surface of the line feeding the input of the
> first balun and the outer surface of the unbalanced input terminals at
> the output of the second balun. In the ideal balun the voltage between
> these two points would be zero.
>
> Next, disconnect the connections between the two baluns, and reconnect
> them, reversing the connections. Now repeat the voltage measurement
> between the same points as in the previous measurements.
>
> In the ideal balun the voltage now measured will also be zero.
>
> However, with a real balun, the voltage between the two points
> specified will usually be zero when the connection between the two
> baluns is such that the outer conductors and inner conductors of both
> baluns are directly connected, respectively.
>
> But the real test of the baluns comes when the outer conductor of the
> first balun is connected to the inner conductor of the second balun,
> and the outer conductor of the first balun is connected to the inner
> conductor the second balun. The lower the voltage obtained in this
> condition, the better the balun. With a perfect balun the voltage will
> again be zero, but if the effect of the balun is zero the voltgage
> measured across the specified point  will equal the input voltage.
>
> The ratio of the voltage at the input of the balun to the voltage
> appearing at the points specified above is twice the ratio of the
> forward voltage to the common mode voltage that would appear on the
> outside surface of the feed line when that balun is used in practice.
>
> Walt, W2DU




Article: 216565 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <nsjmg11nco867emmk8gmg6fc43fo7uade6@4ax.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:34:34 -0400

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:03:56 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
wrote:

>Thank you Walt, my interest is both ferrite bead baluns and coax air core. I
>have searched the internet and found a lot of measurements of magnitude and
>phase angles for various configurations, unfortunately none of them appear
>to agree. I am hoping to come up with a definitive set of tables that the
>average guy can use.
>
>The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to daylight,
>or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.
>
>I was thinking it might be solved with washers and steel wool. (Grin)
>
Well, Fred, go ahead and try the washers, I've already proved that
steel wool doesn't work. (haw)

Walt



Article: 216566 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: Dick BIRD's (G4ZU) death
Message-ID: <43kmg19egdgftm0p1ll0ghda8n6411n0l6@4ax.com>
References: <430aea4c$0$17200$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr> <tvcmg1d07ol245q85ud0crf93q1cmhmun2@4ax.com> <430b424f$0$27427$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:38:15 -0400

Your message was plenty clear, JC, I was just trying to be funny.
But I do respect Dick Bird, he made great contributions to the field
of dx antennas.

Walt

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:35:41 +0200, "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:

>Sorry my message was not clear enough: Carcassonne is a city in the southern 
>part of France and not in the Mediterranean sea !
>We use to say in French "au sud de la France" which means " in the southern 
>part of  the country" and not "south of the french territory".
>F8ND
>
>"Walter Maxwell" <walt@w2du.com> a écrit dans le message de news: 
>tvcmg1d07ol245q85ud0crf93q1cmhmun2@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:20:12 +0200, "JC" <menardjc@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>>
>>>Dick died on August 16th in his house near Carcassonne (South) of France.
>>>Dick, well known in the HAM community, was the creator in the fifties of 
>>>the
>>>MINIBEAM and, since, of several innovative antenna designs such as the
>>>BIRD'S CAGE, the BOW & ARROW (or Jungle Job ) beam....
>>>He was living in France since 1999 using the call F6IDC until 2001.
>>>
>>>We will miss him.
>>>
>>>F8ND
>>
>> Wih all due respect to Dick Bird, isn't  'South of France' in the
>> Mediterranean?
>>
>> Walt, W2DU
>> 
>



Article: 216567 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:58:14 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET>

> The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to
daylight,
> or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.
>
==============================
Fred, I'm afraid you're wrong.

Slide a sufficient number of ferrite beads over the coax line and it
will easily cover 1.8 to 30 MHz.  Alternatively, wind sufficient turns
around a largish ferrite ring of the correct grade of material.
----
Reg.




Article: 216568 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Mike M. <notme@invalid.email.net>
Subject: Re: Jetstream 2015F coax
Message-ID: <04lmg1tm1aql0nqvuucthqi3ld4k37k0rl@4ax.com>
References: <3pplg1913il62fpdor3ftf5sr41q45dlmj@4ax.com> <1gCOe.10640$jr4.6789@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 17:10:48 GMT

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 09:46:37 GMT, "Lee" <lo012a4519@blueyonder.co.uk>
wrotF:

>"Mike M." <notme@invalid.email.net> wrote in message
>news:3pplg1913il62fpdor3ftf5sr41q45dlmj@4ax.com...
>> Has anyone here tried the Jetstream 2015F coax cable from R&L? Is it
>> any good for a 50 ft run at 440 MHz?
>
>R&L ??????
>
>Lee.....
>
R&L Electronics <http://randl.com>
They are a ham radio dealer in Ohio.
Jetstream is their house brand.
I'm going to order some other items and I'm looking for opinions on
their coax. There isn't a review on eHam and Google hasn't turned up
anything beyond the catalog and spec sheet.


Article: 216569 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <5ommg1h7vjvrnn6gj0fumpavadef3jmhan@4ax.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:34:20 -0400

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:58:14 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
<g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:

>> The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to
>daylight,
>> or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.
>>
>==============================
>Fred, I'm afraid you're wrong.
>
>Slide a sufficient number of ferrite beads over the coax line and it
>will easily cover 1.8 to 30 MHz.  Alternatively, wind sufficient turns
>around a largish ferrite ring of the correct grade of material.
>----
>Reg.

Reg is right, Fred, the W2DU balun with 50 #73 beads was designed to
cover from 1.8 - 30 MHz. The series impedance along the outer
conductor of the coax at 2.0 MHz is just over 750 ohms. If the antenna
operating at 2.0 MHz is a half-wave dipole, half the dipole impedance
at resonance will be around 35 ohms. The ratio 750/35 = 21.4, which
gives an approximate isolation of the common-mode current of 26.6 dB
below the current into half the dipole, which is more than adequate.
If you want still more, make the balun with more than the original 50
beadss.

If you don't have a copy of Reflections you can find the balun data
>from my web page at www.w2du.com. See Chapter 21, page 21-8, for the
graph that plots the resistance, reactance, and impedance of the
outside surface of the coax in the W2DU balun vs frequency. 

Walt, W2DU


Article: 216570 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dvd567@webtv.net (Pirate Radio)
Subject: what is the best filter to buy for my part 15 am.station
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:21:40 -0500
Message-ID: <22846-430B6934-910@storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net>

i need a filter for my part 15 am radio just to be on the safe side
cause the army choppers fly around here frequently 



Article: 216571 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Scott" <scott@telnet.com>
Subject: Grounding question
Message-ID: <TwKOe.301712$xm3.265189@attbi_s21>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:10:43 GMT

I am setting up my new Butternut HF9V ground mounted vertical on the side of
my house. Right next to the antenna I have driven a ground rod that I will
attach my antenna and radials to. The question I have is will it be OK to
attach a ground wire from my shack to it too, or should I drive another
ground rod that is separate for my shack only?  If I drive another rod it
will be about 8 feet away from my antennas ground rod.  I have installed my
vertical on a tilt over bracket I bought from Gap so I can hide the vertical
when not in use because of restrictions in my subdivision.
Another question I have, and am concerned about is that my vertical will be
about 25 feet away from my
neighbors Dish Network satellite dish.  Is that going to be a problem for me
and will TVI cause problems?  If so what can I do
about it on my end?  Thanks for your help and opinions.




Article: 216572 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:39:32 -0700
Message-ID: <11gmurnem8qde1e@corp.supernews.com>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net> <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12> <11gk6v0r4tulk90@corp.supernews.com> <430A84D1.1000005@comcast.net> <50c57$430b45d0$97d55b95$4633@ALLTEL.NET>

Fred W4JLE wrote:
> I think Roy is referring to a T configuration rather than an upside-down L.
> The currents will balance in the T so wire size is limited by physical
> considerations rather than electrical. This is just another form of a
> capacity hat. The net result is to raise the radiation resistance.

In a tee type antenna, there will be considerable current at the 
junction of the horizontal and vertical wires. While it's unlikely that 
any wire strong enough to be used won't be able to handle the current 
>from a heating standpoint, it is possible that using a wire on the small 
end of the range might result in noticeable loss. A quick run with a 
modeling program would show whether or not that might happen with a 
given set of dimensions.

One thing I should mention. If the horizontal portion is higher than 
about 0.2 wavelength, MININEC-type ground can be used for modeling 
either a T or L. The vertical wire is connected directly to ground, and 
ground loss can be inserted at the base as a resistive load. If the 
horizontal wire is much less than 0.2 wavelength high, the MININEC-type 
ground can still be used with reasonable accuracy only for the T type 
antenna. For an L type antenna where the horizontal wire is less than 
0.2 wavelength high, a model has to use the High Accuracy ground model, 
with the ground system modeled as radial wires just above the ground.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216573 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: Grounding question
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:01:05 -0000
Message-ID: <11gn0412nktil96@corp.supernews.com>
References: <TwKOe.301712$xm3.265189@attbi_s21>

>I am setting up my new Butternut HF9V ground mounted vertical on the side of
>my house. Right next to the antenna I have driven a ground rod that I will
>attach my antenna and radials to. The question I have is will it be OK to
>attach a ground wire from my shack to it too, or should I drive another
>ground rod that is separate for my shack only?  If I drive another rod it
>will be about 8 feet away from my antennas ground rod.

The National Electric Code, and thus most local building codes,
require that each building structure have only one "ground system".
In order to meet this requirement, all ground rods must be "bonded"
together with direct runs of heavy-gauge wire (6-gauge in most areas,
I believe).

The common 8' copper-plated-steel ground rods which are used for
lightning protection are good for that, but by themselves they don't
make terribly good RF grounds.  You get a better RF ground by using a
number of shorter rods, a few feet or yards apart, bonded together
with heavy wire.

In your case, I'd drive in two ground rods - one as close as possible
to the shack (to which you ground your rig, with a wire that's as
short as possible), and one at the antenna.  Bond them together with a
heavy copper wire, buried a few inches under the soil surface.  This
should help meet the NEC bonding rule, and will also give you a better
RF ground than you'd get by running a ground wire all the way out to
the antenna.  If you're feeling lavish, run some additional ground
wires outwards from your close-to-the-shack ground rod, and bury
'em... that'll help improve the quality of this RF ground somewhat.

>Another question I have, and am concerned about is that my vertical will be
>about 25 feet away from my
>neighbors Dish Network satellite dish.  Is that going to be a problem for me
>and will TVI cause problems?

The satellite feed itself should be unaffected by the RF, I'd think -
the HF frequencies are far too low to be picked up by the dish's LNB.
I have an HF dipole located about 50' from our DirecTV dish, and
haven't seen any sign of interference.

You might end up with problems at the TV set itself, if your RF
"breaks in" to the TV's electronics via the antenna cable, or via the
power or speaker wiring.  This is more likely to happen at higher
power levels, of course... keeping your transmissions below about 20
watts seems to help prevent most such RF breakin.

At your end, you might want to consider adding an auxiliary low-pass
filter to your transmitter output, just to make sure you aren't
transmitting harmonic content outside the HF bands.  Check around your
property for any loose, corroded metal junctions (e.g. old steel
gutters and downspouts, fences, etc.), and if necessary clean 'em up
and bond them - corroded junctions can act as rectifiers, and turn
clean HF energy into a burst of harmonics that can cause TVI.  These
won't affect Dish Network reception, but could affect folks who are
still picking up VHF channels via over-the-air antennas.

You might want to consider stocking up on a good-sized handful of
clamp-on ferrite RF chokes.  If your neighbors complain about TVI or
RFI or telephone interference, give 'em the chokes and tell them to
snap them onto the wiring of the affected appliances, as close as
possible to the chassis (make several turns of wire through the
ferrite if possible).  

Legally, you are _not_ responsible for RFI problems if they're due to
strong-signal overload/pickup and if your transmissions are "clean"
(in-band, acceptably low harmonic content). However, it's often a very
politically-wise and friendly thing to do, if you help affected
neighbors eliminate such unwanted RF pickup... it might save you the
trouble of having to deal with complaints from your neighborhood
association, or even action re CC&Rs that your antenna may violate.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


Article: 216574 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:35:20 -0400
Message-ID: <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET>

At some point a resonance will occur Reg. And while some particular
combination may work - i.e. 7,427 ferrite beads along 841 feet of coax. I
have found no practical balun that does the deed from 1.8 to 30.

Those that work well at 1.8 seem to end up with a resonance somewhere over
20 Mhz..

One solution may be ferrites to cover the low end in series with a solenoid
coil for the high end.

Again, what I am looking for is a simple chart that says for a 10, 15, and
20 meter beam a solenoid of 8 turns on a 4 1/2" pvc coil form will provide
the following impedances ...

Also most people will tell you that just looping the coils together will
cause problems because of capacitance.  I don't see that as a bad thing.
Again I need to see data to confirm or discount my assumptions.

If nothing else it will be a fun learning exercise.

I ran into some problems with an all band no tuner antenna and started to
try various combinations of beads recommended by the Gurus. While it worked
OK on 160, 75 and 40, at 15 and10 meters the  beads has insufficient
impedance.

Ergo, I have mounted my steed and wooden lance in hand am off to fight the
evil forces of unbalance.

"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to
> daylight,
> > or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.
> >
> ==============================
> Fred, I'm afraid you're wrong.
>
> Slide a sufficient number of ferrite beads over the coax line and it
> will easily cover 1.8 to 30 MHz.  Alternatively, wind sufficient turns
> around a largish ferrite ring of the correct grade of material.
> ----
> Reg.
>
>




Article: 216575 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <5ommg1h7vjvrnn6gj0fumpavadef3jmhan@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:40:05 -0400
Message-ID: <57dc3$430b89ca$97d55b95$18129@ALLTEL.NET>

Walt, not to take a thing away from your W2DU balun. I suspect you have
never characterized it at high power.

The #73 material gets really hot at higher power.

"Walter Maxwell" <walt@w2du.com> wrote in message
news:5ommg1h7vjvrnn6gj0fumpavadef3jmhan@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:58:14 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards"
> <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >> The only things I know for sure is that no balun covers from DC to
> >daylight,
> >> or even 1.8 to 30 Mhz.
> >>
> >==============================
> >Fred, I'm afraid you're wrong.
> >
> >Slide a sufficient number of ferrite beads over the coax line and it
> >will easily cover 1.8 to 30 MHz.  Alternatively, wind sufficient turns
> >around a largish ferrite ring of the correct grade of material.
> >----
> >Reg.
>
> Reg is right, Fred, the W2DU balun with 50 #73 beads was designed to
> cover from 1.8 - 30 MHz. The series impedance along the outer
> conductor of the coax at 2.0 MHz is just over 750 ohms. If the antenna
> operating at 2.0 MHz is a half-wave dipole, half the dipole impedance
> at resonance will be around 35 ohms. The ratio 750/35 = 21.4, which
> gives an approximate isolation of the common-mode current of 26.6 dB
> below the current into half the dipole, which is more than adequate.
> If you want still more, make the balun with more than the original 50
> beadss.
>
> If you don't have a copy of Reflections you can find the balun data
> from my web page at www.w2du.com. See Chapter 21, page 21-8, for the
> graph that plots the resistance, reactance, and impedance of the
> outside surface of the coax in the W2DU balun vs frequency.
>
> Walt, W2DU




Article: 216576 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Fred W4JLE" <w4jle@w4jle.com>
References: <22846-430B6934-910@storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net>
Subject: Re: what is the best filter to buy for my part 15 am.station
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:46:15 -0400
Message-ID: <8c63b$430b8b3d$97d55b95$18531@ALLTEL.NET>

Probably not a problem. There communications are normally FM. The only AM is
on the aeronautic band around 120 Mhz and Army common 243 Mhz. :>)

How much power are you running, and on which frequency? Necessary info to
help you with a filter.

"Pirate Radio" <dvd567@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22846-430B6934-910@storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net...
> i need a filter for my part 15 am radio just to be on the safe side
> cause the army choppers fly around here frequently
>




Article: 216577 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com>
Subject: Re: source for large bags of Epsom salts for electrolytic grounding
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:53:00 -0700
Message-ID: <11gn351p3kh1tb4@corp.supernews.com>
References: <QyKdnSz_0sdWGZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net>

Carl R. Stevenson wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm installing an electrolytic grounding system (1-1/2" perforated 
> copper pipe in trenches filled with bentonite), but I've been having 
> difficulty finding large bag quantities of Epsom salts (magnesium 
> sulphate) to use to "dope" the soil.
> 
> If anyone can point me to a supplier in E PA or nearby, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> 
Check your local feed store -- when horses and cows go lame they need 
larger amounts than you or I do.

-- 

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com


Article: 216578 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:58:28 -0000
Message-ID: <11gn3fkok08kq04@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET>

In article <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET>,
Fred W4JLE <w4jle@w4jle.com> wrote:

>Again, what I am looking for is a simple chart that says for a 10, 15, and
>20 meter beam a solenoid of 8 turns on a 4 1/2" pvc coil form will provide
>the following impedances ...

http://www.bcdxc.org/balun_information.htm#Ed,%20WA2SRQ has some of
that sort of information, for a few specific combinations of turns,
diameter, and winding style.

>Also most people will tell you that just looping the coils together will
>cause problems because of capacitance.  I don't see that as a bad thing.
>Again I need to see data to confirm or discount my assumptions.

What I have heard is that scramble-winding the turns tends to create a
higher distributed capacitance, and lowers the frequency at which the
balun exhibits self-resonance.

This appears to be born out by the table in the URL I gave above.
Compare the "8 turns, 6-5/8" columns for single-layer and bunched
windings.  The single-layer coil has its peak impedance at 12 MHz.
The bunched-turn coil peaks somewhere between 6 and 7 MHz (highest
displayed impedance is at 6 but the phase is still very positive, so
I'm inferring a higher-impedance peak between 6 and 7 MHz).

The impedance of the bunched-turn coil seems to drop faster, on either
side of resonance, than that of the solenoid-would coil.

This suggests to me that the bunched-turn coil, measured and trimmed
carefully, might be a convenient choice for a low-HF monoband
antenna's choke, since it'd need fewer turns of coax to achieve a high
choking impedance.  The solenoid-wound coil appears to have a somewhat
broader effective frequency range, and thus might be a better choice
for a 10/15/20 tribander.

-- 
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org>                                   AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
  I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
     boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


Article: 216579 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Roy Lewallen <w7el@eznec.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:17:47 -0700
Message-ID: <11gn4ju2qt9kk9b@corp.supernews.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET>

Fred W4JLE wrote:
> At some point a resonance will occur Reg. And while some particular
> combination may work - i.e. 7,427 ferrite beads along 841 feet of coax. I
> have found no practical balun that does the deed from 1.8 to 30.
> 
> Those that work well at 1.8 seem to end up with a resonance somewhere over
> 20 Mhz..
 >. . .

You're using the wrong kind of ferrite. Type 43, the most common type 
used for large cores, has a Q of 1 in the middle of the HF range. That 
is, the resistance equals the reactance at that frequency. So over the 
HF range a balun wound on a type 43 core with no air gap or by using 
beads W2DU-style looks basically like a resistor. You'd have to have 
extremely sensitive equipment to detect any resonance effects.

70 series ferrites have an even lower frequency Q=1 point, along with 
more impedance per turn squared, and that's what I mostly use. But a 
balun made with type 70 can sometimes get uncomfortably hot if you're 
running a kW.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL


Article: 216580 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: chuck <nospam@nospam.net>
Subject: Re: source for large bags of Epsom salts for electrolytic grounding
References: <QyKdnSz_0sdWGZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net>
Message-ID: <bqMOe.825$_84.28@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 21:20:07 GMT

Hello Carl,

Try Google for this kind of question!

Found this link offering 50 lb. bags @ $45/bag.


http://www.saltworks.us/shop/product.asp?idProduct=255
Epsom Salt


Good luck.

Chuck










Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm installing an electrolytic grounding system (1-1/2" perforated 
> copper pipe in trenches filled with bentonite), but I've been having 
> difficulty finding large bag quantities of Epsom salts (magnesium 
> sulphate) to use to "dope" the soil.
> 
> If anyone can point me to a supplier in E PA or nearby, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> 


Article: 216581 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison)
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 16:55:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1850-430B9B6C-1018@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net>
References: <1124772010.011536.128450@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>

Mark Keith, NM5K wrote:
"I`ve had horizontal antennas that picked up horrible amounts of noise."

Yes, the protectection comes from noise beyond the line of sight range
but not so far away as to require aky wave propagation.

Propagation is a function of frequency. Below 100 KHz, gtound waves are
little affected by the earth`s attenuation and the sky wave is reflected
with little loss by the ionosphere. Waves travel up to 600 miles with
little perturbation from the time of day, season, or year, but at
greater distances, low frequency reception is better at night and in the
winter due to ionospheric changes affecting the reflected signal.. On a
yearly basis, signal strength over long distances correspond with the
11-year sunspot cycle. Low frequency signal strength changes only slowly
without rapid fades which characterize high frequency operation.

At frequencies above 100 KHz but below 535 KHz, ground wave attenuation
is greater than at frequencies below 100 KHz. Daytime ionospheric losses
are very high. Daytime ground wave propagation is better at the lower
end of this frequency range and over soil  of higher conductivity.
Signals may extend to several hundred miles, where noise levels in the
receiving location are low. Nighttime transmission to distant points is
possible due to ionospheric reflection. Dependable daytime reception in
the 100 to 535 KHz range is bad due to lack of ionospheric propagation
and high attenuation of the ground wave especially at the higher
frequency end of this band over poorly conductive earth and during the
summer months when there may be thunder storms producing static eithin
ground wave range..

At frequencies between 535 KHz and 1600 KHz, only the ground wave is
useful in the daytime beyond the line of sight, as the sky wave is
completely absorbed. The higher the frequency in this range, and the
poorer the earrth`s conductivity,, the greater the attenuation of the
ground wave. High powered transmitters at the lower frequencies in this
range reach 50 to 100 miles over high conductivity soil. This may be
pessimistic. I listen 24 hours to 50 KW KKYX in San Antonio which is 200
miles to my west satisfactorily. It broadcasts on 680 KHz. My receivers
are quite ordinary and use internal loop antennas. The earth is highly
conductive but there is no sea water in the path. At night, other
stations
produce low frequency carrier beats with KKYX causing undesirable
automatic volume control action. but KKYX`s sky wave is stronger than
its groundwave and its reception is still acceptable.. Radio Havana is
one of its competitors. I hear all about "El Comandante" at times.

Sky wave goes far in the 535 to 1600 KHz band. During Hurricane Carla in
the 1960`s I listened to Dan Rather describe the storm blow by blow on
KTRH, Houston`s 50 KW outlet, from Tierra del Fuego where I was working,
and listening on a Hitachi pocket transistor portable radio with its
built in loop antenna. The path is about 6000 miles long but mostly over
the ocean. KTRH transmits on 740 KHz from the banks of Cedar Bayou. They
have a 4-tower directionnal array with a North-South bias. Reception was
good in Tierra fel Fuego as it is nearly at the Antarctic Circle and
there are no thunder storms there. It is too cold. Groundwave extends
hundreds of miles from KTRH, but not 6000 miles. My reception was shy
wave using several hops.. Broadcast transmitters concentrate energy
along the horizon so low elevation angles are favored.. This works well
for sky wave DX, especially over the ocean.

Sky wave attenuation in the 535 to 1600 KHz band is about the same
throughout the band, so nighttime coverage of broadcast stations in this
range is almost independent of frequency, while daytime ground waves
favor the lower frequencies. When I was a kid, I had a crystal set fixed
tuned to KTRH which directly drove a loudspeaker, if I could find a
sensitive spot on the galena. I lived almost in sight of the station.

At frequencies between 1600 KHz and 30 MHz,  the ground wave attenuates
so rapidly as to be usseless except over very short distances.
Propagation is either line of sight or via ionospheric reflection or via
tropospheric scattering. Frequencies above 30 MHz are often used for
scattering ao that extremely high gain antennas are practical.
Scatterihg often uses brute force to extend the range of signals beyond
the line of sight.

Most long-distance short-wave communications result from ionnospheric
reflection. In the frequency range of 1600 KHz to 30 MH, a band of
frequencies can almost always be found that provides communications by
sky wave over a path between two points on earth.

The maximum usable frequency depends on the distance between the points
and ionospheric conditions. The minimum usable frequency depends on
ionospheric conditions, effective radiated power, and the noise level at
the receiver. Losses in the ionosphere increase with wavelength, so the
frequency which gives the best signal is usually the maximum usable
frequency. For communocations reliability, the maximum usable frequency
is often discounted by 15% to provide an "Optimum Working Frequency".

Daytime DX requires a high frequency. Shorter paths require lower
frequencies. 

Typically 10 to 29 MHz during the day and 5 to 10 MHz, at night, are
best  for transmission over transoceanic distances (thousands of miles).
Rember the Zenith portable? The best frequencies are usually higher
during the day for long paths than they are at night 

Optimum frequency increases with the length of the path up to the
maximum distance for one-hop transmission, about 1200 to 2400 miles. Low
elevation-angle radiation such as 5 to 15 degrees is usually most
desirable.  Radiation below an angle of about 3.5 degrees may be
absorbed by the earth near the transmitting antenna and wasted.

Frequencies above 30 MHz are usually not reflected by the ionosphere and
provide only sporadic sky wave communications.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI



Article: 216582 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:17:23 -0500
From: Tom Ring <news0002@taring.org>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <430bae83$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net>

Walter Maxwell wrote:

<snip>
> Walt, W2DU

Thank you for that, Walter.  This one gets printed and goes in the binder.

tom
K0TAR


Article: 216583 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "hasan schiers" <schiers@netins.net>
Subject: Re: 80 meter loaded vertical versus 80 meter loaded dipole ?
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 19:32:07 -0500
Message-ID: <degf67$6qu$1@news.netins.net>
References: <PeydnRlla6c06pveRVn-tw@comcast.com> <FDwNe.143798$wr.80134@clgrps12> <430791C7.2040002@comcast.net> <Q9oOe.152118$wr.90103@clgrps12> <11gk6v0r4tulk90@corp.supernews.com> <430A84D1.1000005@comcast.net> <11gl9d35r5mhc97@corp.supernews.com>

Now that is interesting, Roy. I was going to put up a 160 m inverted L this 
summer. I am limited to only being able to go up about 45 feet, so I would 
need about another 90 feet horizontal.

Are you suggesting that it might be a better arrangement to go up the 45' 
and then put up the top "T"? If so, roughly how long should the top part of 
the T be (each side of center) to get me to 160? I'm guessing it may not be 
accomplished without some base loading...and that is what took me to the 
Inverted L in the first place...direct coax feed, albeit not a particularly 
good low angle radiator.

I am prepared to put down a radial field...but I want to stick with a simple 
vertical wire, either extended horizontally as an Inverted L or as you 
suggest, a T, if it can be done. I have about 100' either side of center 
available to construct the top part of the T. In either case, the top 
loading wires will need to be somewhat of the inverted v construction, as I 
don't have 45' high supports for each end.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. I need to get something done before 
winter!

73,

...hasan, N0AN

"Roy Lewallen" <w7el@eznec.com> wrote in message 
news:11gl9d35r5mhc97@corp.supernews.com...
> To determine the horizontal wire current, download the free EZNEC demo 
> from http://eznec.com. That's exactly the kind of thing it's good for.
>
> If you put a single horizontal wire out to make an L shape, the wire 
> radiates a considerable amount. Being as low as it is, a lot of the power 
> will be dissipated in the ground, and only a small fraction will be 
> radiated at a low elevation angle. But if you connect to the center of a 
> horizontal wire to make a T shape, the fields from the two halves of the 
> horizontal wire will nearly cancel, so it'll radiate very little. Its main 
> effect, like a capacitive top hat, will be to even out the current in your 
> vertical wire, which will raise the radiation resistance and therefore the 
> efficiency.
>
> EZNEC or a similar program will quickly show you the differences in field 
> strength in various directions for the antenna as it is, and with either 
> of the top loading configurations.
>
> Roy Lewallen, W7EL
>
> dansawyeror wrote:
>> Roy,
>>
>> Thanks. This might be feasible. The site would support 50 foot wire from 
>> the tip. At 500 watts what would the current in the horizontal leg be? In 
>> other words what is the minimum effective gage?
>>
>> What is the purpose of this leg? Is it capacitive or does it begin to 
>> look like something else. What are it directional characteristics? 
>> Dipoles nodes are perpendicular while long wire nodes are parallel.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> Roy Lewallen wrote:
>>
>>> Frank wrote:
>>>
>>>> . . .
>>>> I agree with comments about adding a horizontal wire to the top of the 
>>>> vertical; it will probably be easier than a capacity hat.  I am 
>>>> overloaded with work at the moment, but would like to attempt a model 
>>>> in a week or so when I have less work.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Take a look also at a tee type arrangement. That is, a horizontal wire 
>>> with the tip of the vertical connected at or near its center. It might 
>>> have some advantages over connecting the wire's end to the vertical. But 
>>> of course it might be more involved to construct.
>>>
>>> Roy Lewallen, W7EL 




Article: 216584 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net> <dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <0oPOe.922$_84.233@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:42:36 GMT


"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message 
news:dedjuj$5aa$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com> wrote in message
> news:4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many
> windings
>> are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not
> the
>> amount of windings.
>>
>> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>>
>> Anyone know anything about this?
>>
>> Dan/W4NTI
>>
> ===================================
> Dan, I am unable to help you.
>
> Because, in common with most other people, I havn't the foggiest idea
> what a TA-33SR is.
>
> Questioners would do better by not depending on other people's
> imagination.  It takes only a few seconds to provide a little more
> essential information. If you can't find the time then it can't matter
> very much anyway.
> ----
> Reg.
>
>

Then perhaps it would be better if you didn't respond at all,  eh?

Dan/W4NTI




Article: 216585 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Hal Rosser" <hmrosser@bellsouth.net>
References: <1124831695.022814.213260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Very happy with my 80 meter loop on higher bands
Message-ID: <wuPOe.33852$XM3.29687@bignews5.bellsouth.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:51:06 -0400

I've talked to a guy who put up a sky loop like yours, then also installed
another loop, about 5% longer, 40 ft below the first. (He ended up with a
80-meter quad pointed straight up). He talked to europe on 80 quite
regularly - and said it worked well on the other bands too, with a tuner.

"Chuck W." <cwyatt@w3minds.com> wrote in message
news:1124831695.022814.213260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've got an 80 meter horizontal loop up around 50 feet in my backyard,
> fed with ladder line.  It seems to work really well on 20 and 18
> meters, no doubt has some decent gain over a dipole in some lobes.  I
> push about 500 watts into it and work all kinds of DX with very good
> reports, even breaking pileups on 20 meters.
>
> Would a 3 element yagi open up a new experience of antenna performance
> for me, in terms of forward gain?  Sure seems convenient to have an
> antenna that doesn't require a tower and a rotator.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck
>




Article: 216586 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com>
References: <4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Info needed TA-33SR Choke coil
Message-ID: <pAPOe.932$_84.188@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 00:55:49 GMT

Thanks to all who bothered to reply,  except Reg of course.  Hardy Har Har.

I appreciate the comments about not bothering.   Wellll.....I think I'll use 
one because I want to keep feedline radiation at a minimum.  You know 
computers,  and phone patching.

Dan/W4NTI

"Dan/W4NTI" <w4nti@mindNOSPAMATALLspring.com> wrote in message 
news:4VrOe.378$_84.352@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>I am putting up my old TA-33SR by Mosley.  I need to know how many windings 
>are needed on the choke.  I seem to remember 6" diameter,  but not the 
>amount of windings.
>
> According to the manual there is no choke indicated at all.
>
> Anyone know anything about this?
>
> Dan/W4NTI
>
> 




Article: 216587 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Message-ID: <430BE09F.67F5CD1D@shaw.ca>
From: Irv Finkleman <finkirv@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: source for large bags of Epsom salts for electrolytic grounding 
References: <QyKdnSz_0sdWGZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 02:50:15 GMT

"Carl R. Stevenson" wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm installing an electrolytic grounding system (1-1/2" perforated copper
> pipe in trenches filled with bentonite), but I've been having difficulty
> finding large bag quantities of Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) to use to
> "dope" the soil.
> 
> If anyone can point me to a supplier in E PA or nearby, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> --


Just buy the salt for water-softerners. It's readily available and
probably cheaper.

Irv VE6BP
-- 
--------------------------------------
Diagnosed Type II Diabetes March 5 2001
Beating it with diet and exercise!
297/215/210 (to be revised lower)
58"/43"(!)/44" (already lower too!)
--------------------------------------
Visit my HomePage at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv/index.html
Visit my Baby Sofia website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv4/index.htm
Visit my OLDTIMERS website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv5/index.htm
--------------------
Irv Finkleman,
Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP
Calgary, Alberta, Canada


Article: 216588 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "David" <david@orbitcoms.com>
Subject: Material for Flexible Whip antenna
Message-ID: <S3SOe.8590$FA3.4667@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 03:45:54 GMT

I am looking for the Black (Nylon,Polythene ???) tubing around 6mm OD
and wall thickness of 1mm for construction of 900 MHz whip antenna.
It needs to be fairly rigid as it is glued to an SMA plug.

If anyone can advise what material is typically used and where I could 
purchase
a reel of it (maybe it is even pressure tubing for pnuematics ?), it would 
be much
appreciated. Australian source would be preferrable.

Thank in advance

Regards

David 




Article: 216589 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Ray Gaschk" <rgaschk@astound.net>
Subject: Re: source for large bags of Epsom salts for electrolytic grounding system (E PA area or nearby)
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 20:34:06 -0700
Message-ID: <degpjc$r89$1@news.astound.net>
References: <QyKdnSz_0sdWGZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net> <11gn351p3kh1tb4@corp.supernews.com> <T1udnRbCRYXgDZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net>

Carl,

Please don't use copper sulphate, it is illegal in most locals, gets into 
ground water and is poisonous . Another salt you might consider is sodium 
carbonate, "washing soda" it is pretty inexpensive but not as cheap as 
sodium chloride in the form of water softener salt.

ray, w6fya
"Carl R. Stevenson" <wk3cqth@wk3c.com> wrote in message 
news:T1udnRbCRYXgDZbeUSdV9g@ptd.net...
> Thanks ... I'll check around the local feed stores.
>
> Any other suggestions from others  would still be welcome.
>
> -- 
> 73,
> Carl R. Stevenson - wk3c
> Grid Square FN20fm
> http://home.ptd.net/~wk3c
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Life Member, ARRL
> Life Member, QCWA (31424)
> Member, TAPR
> Member, AMSAT-NA
> Member, LVARC (Lehigh Valley ARC)
> Member, Lehigh County ARES/RACES
> Fellow, The Radio Club of America
> Senior Member, IEEE
> Member, IEEE Standards Association
> Chair, IEEE 802.22 WG on Wireless Regional Area Networks
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Tim Wescott" <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote in message 
> news:11gn351p3kh1tb4@corp.supernews.com...
>> Carl R. Stevenson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm installing an electrolytic grounding system (1-1/2" perforated 
>>> copper pipe in trenches filled with bentonite), but I've been having 
>>> difficulty finding large bag quantities of Epsom salts (magnesium 
>>> sulphate) to use to "dope" the soil.
>>>
>>> If anyone can point me to a supplier in E PA or nearby, I'd appreciate 
>>> it.
>>>
>>>
>> Check your local feed store -- when horses and cows go lame they need 
>> larger amounts than you or I do.
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Tim Wescott
>> Wescott Design Services
>> http://www.wescottdesign.com
> 




Article: 216590 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Mal" <spam@bigpond.net.au>
References: <S3SOe.8590$FA3.4667@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: Material for Flexible Whip antenna
Message-ID: <KuTOe.8690$FA3.7066@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 05:22:50 GMT

http://www.mobileone.com.au/antenna/default.htm
"David" <david@orbitcoms.com> wrote in message 
news:S3SOe.8590$FA3.4667@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>I am looking for the Black (Nylon,Polythene ???) tubing around 6mm OD
> and wall thickness of 1mm for construction of 900 MHz whip antenna.
> It needs to be fairly rigid as it is glued to an SMA plug.
>
> If anyone can advise what material is typically used and where I could 
> purchase
> a reel of it (maybe it is even pressure tubing for pnuematics ?), it would 
> be much
> appreciated. Australian source would be preferrable.
>
> Thank in advance
>
> Regards
>
> David
> 




Article: 216591 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "AE6FL-AAM9ECS" <ae6fl@arrl.net>
References: <1124831695.022814.213260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Very happy with my 80 meter loop on higher bands
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 22:39:25 -0700
Message-ID: <e8a93$430c0812$4311d10b$9049@TCSN.NET>


"Chuck W." <cwyatt@w3minds.com> wrote in message 
news:1124831695.022814.213260@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I've got an 80 meter horizontal loop up around 50 feet in my backyard,
> fed with ladder line.  It seems to work really well on 20 and 18
> meters, no doubt has some decent gain over a dipole in some lobes.  I
> push about 500 watts into it and work all kinds of DX with very good
> reports, even breaking pileups on 20 meters.
>
> Would a 3 element yagi open up a new experience of antenna performance
> for me, in terms of forward gain?  Sure seems convenient to have an
> antenna that doesn't require a tower and a rotator.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chuck

Hi Chuck,

I have roughly 300 feet of 14 gauge insulated wire in a square horizontal 
loop at 28 feet above the yard here and use 4 foot sections of fiberglass 
camo netting supports at each corner guyed with para-cord . Work mainly MARS 
stations in the CONUS on 3 to 8 MHz frequencies using 100 watt Icom 
transceiver and AH-4 auto-tuner with ladder line feed. This antenna works 
very well in this application and I'm consistently reported as 'loudest 
station on the net', etc.

I've had lots of great DX contacts too. When you look at AZ-EL plots it has 
very sharp lobes at certain frequencies. Probably much better for DX at 50 
feet. Delta loop is more omnidirectional and doesn't have as many sharp 
lobes.

 Adding a tower, rotor and yagi would definitely open up much more DX. Have 
a 55 foot crank-up tower, rotor and 12 element log periodic project planned 
for this fall. For me, it's worth the effort. Should be much easier to 
contact friends that are currently in the Middle East.

73,
Mike ae6fl, AAM9ECS





Article: 216592 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: dvd567@webtv.net (Pirate Radio)
Subject: Re: what is the best filter to buy for my part 15 am.station
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 01:50:03 -0500
Message-ID: <22846-430C189B-992@storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net>
References: <8c63b$430b8b3d$97d55b95$18531@ALLTEL.NET>

the freq will be 1700. not much power not over 5 watts also i am in the
country only a few people live around me so i can crank up the power lol
thanks for the info



Article: 216593 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:50:34 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <dehccq$614$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET>

For the performance/behaviour of a solenoid-wound coaxial choke,
download program SELFRES from website below.

Enter dimensions of the coil and the resonant frequency and impedance
versus frequency in a test circuit is calculated.
---- 
...........................................................
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
...........................................................




Article: 216594 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "David" <david@orbitcoms.com>
References: <S3SOe.8590$FA3.4667@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <KuTOe.8690$FA3.7066@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: Material for Flexible Whip antenna
Message-ID: <LaYOe.8939$FA3.3480@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:42:51 GMT

Mal,

I cannot see on the web page where they mention the material used for the 
Whip Radome ?
They also don't seem to sell any tubing.

Can you advise me which page they advertise the tubing ?

Thanks

"Mal" <spam@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message 
news:KuTOe.8690$FA3.7066@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> http://www.mobileone.com.au/antenna/default.htm
> "David" <david@orbitcoms.com> wrote in message 
> news:S3SOe.8590$FA3.4667@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>I am looking for the Black (Nylon,Polythene ???) tubing around 6mm OD
>> and wall thickness of 1mm for construction of 900 MHz whip antenna.
>> It needs to be fairly rigid as it is glued to an SMA plug.
>>
>> If anyone can advise what material is typically used and where I could 
>> purchase
>> a reel of it (maybe it is even pressure tubing for pnuematics ?), it 
>> would be much
>> appreciated. Australian source would be preferrable.
>>
>> Thank in advance
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> David
>>
>
> 




Article: 216595 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: "Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:29:41 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <dehln5$mt$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET> <dehccq$614$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

The performance of a coaxial choke inserted at the antenna end of the
feedline cannot be properly studied without knowledge of the
feedline's length in wavelengths and how the feedline is terminated at
the transmitter end.  No two systems are the same.

Choke performance depends on the condition of the system before the
choke is inserted.  The choking effect depends on the impedance seen
by the choke looking into the outer conductor of the coaxial feedline.

The input impedance of the coaxial outer conductor depends on Zo, 400
to 550 ohms, of the single-wire line, its length in wavelengths, and
on the very uncertain resistance of the ground connection at the
transmitter end.

If the ground connection at the transmitter end is very low and the
line is an odd number of 1/4-wavelengths there will be a very high
impedance at the antenna end and longitudinal current will negligible.
Insertion of the choke will have no effect.

If the line is a whole number of 1/2-wavelengths, with a low
resistance ground the input impedance of the coaxial outer conductor
will also be very low and longitudinal current in the line will be at
a maximum.  Insertion of the choke will be very effective.

With the usual random line length and on different bands, choke
performance will always be completely random and unpredictable. Which
explains the different opinions and arguments about whether a choke is
necessary or not.

Program SELFRES3 models choke behaviour.
---- 
...........................................................
Regards from Reg, G4FGQ
For Free Radio Design Software go to
http://www.btinternet.com/~g4fgq.regp
...........................................................




Article: 216596 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: Please help!
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:36:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1124887171_251@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1124791726.680838.154290@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>  <1124802997_993@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1124879145.165208.200300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>

andy wrote:
> Probably could get 80 another way. Ok, but I still need to find
> "magical" antenna wire + feedline length combination. For that,
> probably 10 to 20 metres around that fishing pole. Could I model the
> vertical section as a straight (20m for example) and get same results
> as if the wire was coiled. 

No. You might try modeling it with a number of lumped inductive
loads distributed over the length of the antenna.

> Dont want to model helixes!

Helixes make poor multi-band antennas because of self-resonance
effects. And remember, when a vertical is made longer than 5/8WL,
the take-off-angle increases possibly causing a lot of your radiated
energy to be lost in space.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Article: 216597 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
From: Walter Maxwell <walt@w2du.com>
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
Message-ID: <vhqog19njt69qvebfp3fts92ttsplfecd9@4ax.com>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <430bae83$0$32206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 08:39:04 -0400

On Tue, 23 Aug 2005 18:17:23 -0500, Tom Ring <news0002@taring.org>
wrote:

>Walter Maxwell wrote:
>
><snip>
>> Walt, W2DU
>
>Thank you for that, Walter.  This one gets printed and goes in the binder.
>
>tom
>K0TAR

I'm pleased that you find my data useful, Tom,

Walt


Article: 216598 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna
Subject: Re: How do I test a choke balun?
From: Cecil Moore <w5dxp@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 07:48:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1124887862_257@spool6-east.superfeed.net>
References: <1c6d3$430a5b1a$97d55b95$23134@ALLTEL.NET> <pan.2005.08.23.00.19.27.764187@gmail.com> <4q0lg1dm8ro1mu692b6c2rvg3f1ojssa0s@4ax.com> <e74f6$430b4924$97d55b95$6176@ALLTEL.NET> <defkj6$e1j$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <e85ee$430b88ac$97d55b95$17905@ALLTEL.NET> <dehccq$614$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com> <dehln5$mt$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>

Reg Edwards wrote:
> If the line is a whole number of 1/2-wavelengths, with a low
> resistance ground the input impedance of the coaxial outer conductor
> will also be very low and longitudinal current in the line will be at
> a maximum.  Insertion of the choke will be very effective.

To complicate things a little more, the common-mode current may
consist of standing waves. If the choke is installed at a current
minimum point, it may have little effect.
-- 
73, Cecil  http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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