Article: 217315 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:02:40 -0500 Message-ID: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> kashe@sonic.net wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >>Richard Clark wrote: >>>Christian charity is not fulfilled by a shrug of the HOA committee, >>>and members who enjoy the veil of these rules won't find it any easier >>>getting through the eye of the needle. >> >>The small "eye of the needle" gate at the walls of a city >>was sized for human beings. It was camels that couldn't >>get through it. Camels had to enter through the main gate. > > But the reference was to it being as difficult for a rich man > (as in dweller of the gated community type) as for the camel .... Nowhere in The Bible does it say anything about a man finding it difficult to go through the eye of the needle. The "eye of the needle" gate was designed to allow men through, even rich ones, and keep camels out. The difficult thing for men was to enter the Kingdom of God, not get through the "eye of the needle" gate. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217316 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Wooden I section pole Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:07:56 -0500 Message-ID: References: Thanks, Ed, for your comments. Yes, If I have a supporting pole in the lawn, there is no reason why I couldn't also have a support directly below the loop. The loop would be in the shape of an octagon, it would be fed through either a 1/5 size coupling loop or a gamma match at the center of the bottom side, and the series resonating tuning capacitor would be inserted at the center of the top side. The 3/4 inch copper pipe would be the same type that is used inside houses and is quite rigid. I can not seem to find, by Goggling, the weight of copper pipe. By going to the local Lowe's store and hefting a 10 feet length of pipe, I estimate the weight of 10 feet of pipe as being somewhere in the range of 1-3 lb. "Edward A. Feustel" wrote in message news:auadnbLWzf3yL7PeRVn-uQ@giganews.com... > > "John N9JG" wrote in message > news:dgl50o$rgj$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... >>A wooden utility pole with a length of 40 feet above ground would do the >>job for me. It's just that I am not sure how the neighbors would react. A >>search of the web did show that there are fiber glass flag poles available >>that have sufficient height, but I don't know if they can support the >>weight of 100 feet of 3/4 in copper pipe and a 10-15 lb remotely tuned >>capacitor inside a weather-proof box. >> > John, > Would you be able to provide additional support from the bottom of the > loop to ground? > That might relieve the situation. Could you have the feed at the bottom > rather than at the top and > could the box be supported? > > If you could support from the bottom and use a heavy walled copper pipe > which would provide > substantial rigidity, the fiberglass might work. > > I suspect that the neighbors are not going to be enthusiastic about the > loop. > Regards, > Ed, N5EI > Article: 217317 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:27:25 -0500 Message-ID: <1127140206_12465@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> pezSV7BAXdag wrote: > The limit for Z does not exist > or is (in general) the complex infinity. As the length of a dipole is increased, for the same power input, more energy is radiated during the first transcient cycle and less is available for reflection >from the ends of the dipole. Reflected energy is what is causing the feedpoint impedance to change. As the length of the dipole is incrementally increased, the magnitude of the reflected energy is incrementally decreased. I believe Balanis alludes to this characteristic of standing-wave antennas. The feedpoint impedance is Zfp = (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) using phasor addition. The limit of that equation as Vref and Iref go to zero is Vfor/Ifor. That's what happens for an infinitely long dipole. That's also what happens during the transient phase of a finite dipole. Thus, Vfor/Ifor can be thought of as the characteristic impedance of the dipole. Seems to me, Vfor/Ifor could actually be measured during the transient phase of a long finite dipole. Will a TDR report the ratio of V/I for an RF pulse? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217318 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:49:37 -0500 Message-ID: <1127141538_12499@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> <1127099727_10687@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote: >> The theoretical values converge at 214 - j189 ohms, and the measured >> values at 218 - j174 ohms. > > Free space? As a data point, I pushed EZNEC to the limit on 40m > with a 9000 ft. dipole. Resonant feedpoint resistance at > 7.152 is 390 ohms. Anti-resonant feedpoint resistance at 7.092 > is 1980 ohms. It appears that EZNEC would converge to something > in between those two values for an infinite dipole in free space. Forgot to add, EZNEC would also converge to approximately the same reactance value as above. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217319 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:29:25 -0500 Message-ID: <19825-432EE765-205@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> References: <1127100215_10699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Cecil, W5DXP wrote: "Note that those are not the feedpoint impedances.". Well, the imprdance I qupted was the radiation resistance, which is the voltage to current ratio of an antenna at the maximum current point in the antenna. I was just too lazy to post the complete Table given by Bailey. Only when the order of resonance in a center-fed dipole is odd, 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc, is the feedpoint resistance the same as the radiation resistance. In odd-ordered resonances, the antenna feedpoint resistance is te same as the radiation resistance. In odd-orfered resonances, the antenna feedpoint is at s current loop. In even-ordered resonances, the value of the feedpoint resistance is equal to the feedpoint impedance squared, divided by the radiation resistance value. Bailey has worked it all out for us. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 217320 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "pezSV7BAXdag" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:34:35 +0300 Message-ID: References: <1127100215_10699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <19825-432EE765-205@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> | ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Subject...: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? | Sent......: Monday, September 19, 2005 5:27 PM | Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna | From......: "Cecil Moore" | ----------------------------------------------------------------- | [...] | As the length of a dipole is increased, for the same | power input, more energy is radiated during the first | transcient cycle and less is available for reflection | from the ends of the dipole. Reflected energy is what | is causing the feedpoint impedance to change. As the | length of the dipole is incrementally increased, the | magnitude of the reflected energy is incrementally | decreased. I believe Balanis alludes to this characteristic | of standing-wave antennas. | | The feedpoint impedance is Zfp = (Vfor+Vref)/(Ifor+Iref) | using phasor addition. | | The limit of that equation as Vref and Iref go to zero | is Vfor/Ifor. That's what happens for an infinitely | long dipole. That's also what happens during the transient | phase of a finite dipole. Thus, Vfor/Ifor can be thought | of as the characteristic impedance of the dipole. Seems | to me, Vfor/Ifor could actually be measured during the | transient phase of a long finite dipole. Will a TDR | report the ratio of V/I for an RF pulse? | -- | 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp | ----------------------------------------------------------------- Do you mean that since the length is infinite there is no reflected wave? But then here it is, once again, one of the most controversial issues... Well, I think we are in the front of a case in which the limit depends on the way we approach it. Every logical way to approach a limit is permissible. And these ways are infinite in number of course. But the convergence is too demanding: "She" wants all these limits to be equal. If just two of them are unequal the convergence simply does not exist. Mathematically this is not a rare case, they say. Sincerely, pezSV7BAXdag Article: 217321 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Wooden I section pole Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:14:01 -0500 Message-ID: References: <8KSdnWgdUoDbdbPeRVn-og@comcast.com> The Lowe's store here was stocking Type L Hard 3/4" copper pipe 10' long for $10. However, they only had one item in stock. I am guessing the demand for construction material due to the recent hurricane will cause shortages and higher prices. "Tom Coates" wrote in message news:8KSdnWgdUoDbdbPeRVn-og@comcast.com... > My Lowe's store sells two kinds of copper pipe. The less costly one is > harder, lighter and thinner. I began my antenna experients with the > huskier > stuff and after it bent, replaced it with the thin material, which is > holding up OK so far. > > The thinner material seems to have about the same weight per foot as > aluminum. I'm using copper instead of aluminum because it is easier to > make > good electrical connections between the pieces. > > Tom > Article: 217322 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> "Ian Jackson" wrote in message news:LBpcZhCkdRLDFweH@g3ohx.demon.co.uk... > In message , Reg > Edwards writes > >> What is the impedance at the centre of an infinitely long dipole > >(in > >> free space)? > > > >=============================== > >Its not very different from - > > > >Zin = 120 * Ln( Wavelength / d ) ohms. > > > >where d = conductor diameter, both measured in metres. > > > >Thus, at wavelength = 80 metres with 14 gauge copper wire, input > >impedance = 1300 ohms approx. > > > >If you don't believe me, just measure it. > >---- > >Reg. > > > > > > Are you sure it's as high as that, Reg? I once did a Smith Chart plot of > the impedance at the centre of a dipole, the valued being taken from a > table 'compiled by Wu' (LK Wu?). These only catered for a lengths up to > a few wavelengths. As the plot progressed round and round the Smith > Chart, it seemed to be heading for something around 350 to 400 ohms. > > I've just done a search on 'Wu+dipole+impedance', and one of the results > is > http://www.fars.k6ya.org/docs/antenna-impedance-models.pdf > I'll have a read of it today. > > Cheers, > Ian. > -- > Article: 217323 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:19:14 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> "Ian Jackson" wrote - > Are you sure it's as high as that, Reg? I once did a Smith Chart plot of > the impedance at the centre of a dipole, the valued being taken from a > table 'compiled by Wu' (LK Wu?). These only catered for a lengths up to > a few wavelengths. As the plot progressed round and round the Smith > Chart, it seemed to be heading for something around 350 to 400 ohms. > > I've just done a search on 'Wu+dipole+impedance', and one of the results > is > http://www.fars.k6ya.org/docs/antenna-impedance-models.pdf > I'll have a read of it today. =================================== The characteristic impedance of an infinitely long wire is Zo. If we cut the line and measure between the two ends we obtain an input impedance of twice Zo. Which is the answer to our problem. Zo is a function of wavelength, conductor diameter and conductor resistance R where R includes the uniformly distributed radiation resistance. On a high Zo line the radiation resistance is small compared with Zo and the only effect of the radiation resistance is to give Zo a small negative angle. Which when estimating Zo can be ignored. (It is conductor resistance which at HF gives Zo of ALL lines a very small negative angle). In the problem posed, the current is also uniformly distributed along the low-loss line and radiation resistance is not the value we are familiar with and what we might do with it. And so we get approximately - Rin = 120 * ( Ln( Wavelength / 2 / d ) - 1 ) At a wavelength of 2 metres and a conductor diameter of 10mm the input resistance = 433 ohms. I cannot guarantee the above formula to be correct. But is it low enough for you? ;o) Mr Wu calculates radiation resistance which is not the same as input impedance unless correctly referenced. It is usual in technical papers to calculate Radres at one end of the antenna. Or it may be the distributed value. I havn't the time to find and study the full text. >From past experience, with me, it usually ends up as a wild goose chase. ---- Reg. Article: 217324 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:45:02 -0500 Message-ID: <1127155662_12661@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1127100215_10699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <19825-432EE765-205@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net> pezSV7BAXdag wrote: > Do you mean that since the length is infinite > there is no reflected wave? But then here it is, once again, > one of the most controversial issues... Yep, it's my digital logic in action. :-) If there's no end, then there cannot be reflections from the ends. And please note that I am not saying that the characteristic impedance of a dipole is constant all up and down the line. I'm only concerned about the apparent characteristic impedance at the feedpoint, i.e. Vfor/Ifor. Consider an open circuit transmission line. At 1/4WL, it exhibits a very low impedance. At 1/2WL it exhibits a very high impedance. As the transmission line length is increased to infinity, because of losses, the "stub" impedance will spiral into the Z0 characteristic impedance point. A similar concept should apply to a dipole. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217325 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:55:45 -0500 Message-ID: <1127156305_12671@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > In the problem posed, the current is also uniformly distributed along > the low-loss line and radiation resistance is not the value we are > familiar with and what we might do with it. Reg, in the real world, an antenna has radiation losses so the current decays along its length. Is there any formula that includes an attenuation factor for a traveling wave antenna? It would be akin to the attenuation factor for a transmission line but presumably higher. I have estimated that, for a 1/2WL dipole, the reflected voltage and current have dropped by approximately 10% below the forward voltage and current during the round trip to the ends of the antenna and back. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217326 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> <1127099727_10687@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote: > >> The theoretical values converge at 214 - j189 ohms, and the measured >> values at 218 - j174 ohms. > > > Free space? As a data point, I pushed EZNEC to the limit on 40m > with a 9000 ft. dipole. Resonant feedpoint resistance at > 7.152 is 390 ohms. Anti-resonant feedpoint resistance at 7.092 > is 1980 ohms. It appears that EZNEC would converge to something > in between those two values for an infinite dipole in free space. > I ran into the segment limit at 66 wavelengths. One point: Isn't the input impedance of a dipole normally specified at a wavelength equal to twice the electrical length of the antenna? As far as I know, dipoles have infinite DC resistance at zero Hertz. ;-) ac6xg Article: 217327 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:23:38 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127156305_12671@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Cec, what is your best estimate of the input impedance of an infinitely long dipole. Just a number please. Remember Lord Kelvin! ---- Reg. Article: 217328 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > =================================== > > The characteristic impedance of an infinitely long wire is Zo. > > If we cut the line and measure between the two ends we obtain an input > impedance of twice Zo. Which is the answer to our problem. > > Zo is a function of wavelength, conductor diameter and conductor > resistance R where R includes the uniformly distributed radiation > resistance. On a high Zo line the radiation resistance is small > compared with Zo and the only effect of the radiation resistance is to > give Zo a small negative angle. Which when estimating Zo can be > ignored. (It is conductor resistance which at HF gives Zo of ALL > lines a very small negative angle). This assumption is correct only when the transmission line conductors are closely spaced. That isn't at all true for the halves of a dipole. > > In the problem posed, the current is also uniformly distributed along > the low-loss line and radiation resistance is not the value we are > familiar with and what we might do with it. > > And so we get approximately - > > Rin = 120 * ( Ln( Wavelength / 2 / d ) - 1 ) > > At a wavelength of 2 metres and a conductor diameter of 10mm the input > resistance = 433 ohms. > I cannot guarantee the above formula to be correct. But is it low > enough for you? ;o) I can't see how it can possibly be correct. Unless I'm mistaken, you've completely ignored the effect of radiation in calculating the radiation resistance. It sure makes the calculation a lot simpler, though! > Mr Wu calculates radiation resistance which is not the same as input > impedance unless correctly referenced. It is usual in technical papers > to calculate Radres at one end of the antenna. Or it may be the > distributed value. I havn't the time to find and study the full text. > From past experience, with me, it usually ends up as a wild goose > chase. It depends on the author. Kraus uses feedpoint resistance and radiation resistance interchangeably when loss is assumed to be zero. It's traditional in AM broadcasting to give radiation resistance referred to a current maximum. The conclusion is that radiation resistance can be referred to any point along an antenna you wish, which means that it's essential to state what point you're using as a reference. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 217329 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:51:23 -0700 Message-ID: <11iu96drk8qh8e5@corp.supernews.com> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> <1127099727_10687@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > > One point: Isn't the input impedance of a dipole normally specified at > a wavelength equal to twice the electrical length of the antenna? As > far as I know, dipoles have infinite DC resistance at zero Hertz. ;-) No, you can calculate or specify the input impedance of a dipole at any frequency. As frequency approaches zero, a dipole's input resistance approaches zero and its reactance approaches minus inifnity. That is, it looks like a capacitor, and the capacitive reactance gets larger as the frequency gets lower. Which is just what you'd expect from a couple of electrically very short wires having no DC connection. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 217330 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:28:30 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127156305_12671@spool6-east.superfeed.net> > Reg Edwards wrote: > > In the problem posed, the current is also uniformly distributed along > > the low-loss line and radiation resistance is not the value we are > > familiar with and what we might do with it. > > Reg, in the real world, an antenna has radiation losses so > the current decays along its length. ============================== Yes, I know. Just insert "approximately" before "uniformly" On a long terminated non-resonant line I guess the current falls off crudely exponentially at a rate of about 1 dB per wavelength. The situation is similar to that very long, low, terminated antenna wire whose name I can't remember. And whose input resistance at LF is about 550 ohms. Putting two of them back-to-back gives an input resistance of twice that = 1100 ohms. Which indicates the answer to our infinitely long dipole problem. ---- Reg. Article: 217331 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:41:00 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> <1127099727_10687@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu96drk8qh8e5@corp.supernews.com> Roy Lewallen wrote: > Jim Kelley wrote: > >> >> One point: Isn't the input impedance of a dipole normally specified >> at a wavelength equal to twice the electrical length of the antenna? >> As far as I know, dipoles have infinite DC resistance at zero Hertz. ;-) > > As frequency approaches zero, a dipole's input resistance > approaches zero and its reactance approaches minus inifnity. That is, it > looks like a capacitor, and the capacitive reactance gets larger as the > frequency gets lower. Which is just what you'd expect from a couple of > electrically very short wires having no DC connection. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL I'll give you a Mulligan on that one if you like, Roy. ;-) 73, ac6xg Article: 217332 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:08:08 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> Roy, if you don't like my simple approximate formula, can YOU produce a better one without plagiarising? ---- Reg. Article: 217333 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ralph Mowery" References: <0utqi1toov2uefq3esvfma1gp53fhs12jc@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Using a Fan Dipole for Six Meters Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:32:53 GMT Allison, > > I have heard good things about the Ten Tec Transverter and figured it > was time to give it a try. I am a RTTY Junkie and noticed a six meter > RTTY spot yesterday. The 1208 should be here on Tuesday. > > Dick AA5VU The TT I had had a very hot receiver. I had the marage amplifier with the gasfet preamp and when I turned on the preamp I could not tell any differance in the weak signals. The S-meter came up but the noise came up with the signal. I could get the same effect in the audio just by turning up the volume on the receiver. On transmitt, 10 watts or so is still 10 watts. Just a little too low for me on 6 meters. With many of the newer rigs having 100 watts on 6 I think that is the power level to shoot for. For what is it , the transverter does a very fine job. Article: 217334 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:54:59 -0700 Message-ID: <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > Roy, if you don't like my simple approximate formula, can YOU produce > a better one without plagiarising? > ---- > Reg. Sure. 42. It might not be better, but it's just as good. Formulas can be made very simple if you simply ignore any inconvenient facts. Like radiation from an antenna. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 217335 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:22:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> "Roy Lewallen" wrote > Reg Edwards wrote: > > Roy, if you don't like my simple approximate formula, can YOU produce > > a better one without plagiarising? > > ---- > > Reg. ====================================== > Sure. 42. It might not be better, but it's just as good. Formulas can be > made very simple if you simply ignore any inconvenient facts. Like > radiation from an antenna. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL ===================================== Don't be silly. I didn't ignore radiation resistance. I said it was small enough in comparison with Zo, as an approximation, to forget about. And remember Lord Kelvin. ---- Reg. Article: 217336 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:43:59 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > And remember Lord Kelvin. > ---- > Reg. > "To measure is to know." also "X-rays will prove to be a hoax." http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/quotes/ ac6xg Article: 217337 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:10:45 -0500 Message-ID: <1127178806_13147@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127050673_7845@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11irkp8rmnk0ta0@corp.supernews.com> <1127099727_10687@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > One point: Isn't the input impedance of a dipole normally specified at > a wavelength equal to twice the electrical length of the antenna? As > far as I know, dipoles have infinite DC resistance at zero Hertz. ;-) That would be true for an electrical dipole but we are obviously talking about physical poles here, i.e. two infinite conductive fishing poles. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217338 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:19:01 -0500 Message-ID: <1127179301_13155@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127156305_12671@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > Cec, what is your best estimate of the input impedance of an > infinitely long dipole. Just a number please. Guesstimate: 900-j175 ohms. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217339 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? From: Cecil Moore Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:00:30 -0500 Message-ID: <1127181791_13183@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127156305_12671@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > On a long terminated non-resonant line I guess the current falls off > crudely exponentially at a rate of about 1 dB per wavelength. Seems to me if we assume 1 dB per wavelength for both current and voltage and knowing the feedpoint impedance of a one WL dipole, we could calculate the characteristic impedance of the antenna at the feedpoint. Seems to me it would be essentially the same calculation as for a 1/2WL open-circuit stub where the transmission line has losses of 1 dB per wavelength and we measure a stub impedance of 5000 ohms. We could calculate the Z0 of the stub. Couldn't we use a TDR to measure the loss in an open-ended 1/2WL piece of wire? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217340 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:14:07 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <17b21$432c3942$471c63c6$27597@ALLTEL.NET> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:41:25 -0400, "Fred W4JLE" wrote: >Would someone put something in "Uncle Ted's" mouth, my zipper is stuck... > Sorry, but I'm afraid I may be a few decades older than the ten-year-old boys you are fantasizing about... Article: 217341 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:22:10 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5ujsi196c3dl0l0a7su4uqltnt4u0ql4ko@4ax.com> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:41:38 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: >>It's bad enough that people feel a need to believe in any deities at >>all, but when you have to listen to a bunch of old men in robes half a >>world away tell you how to live your life, you're pretty screwed up. > > Is this a slam against our Muslim brethren? A comment on the >position of Saudi Arabian women? Pope worshipers and Mohamahdists are all the same to me... Article: 217342 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:20:01 -0400 Message-ID: <34sui1h78dnnf7upi6oasunk6c3quvikup@4ax.com> References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:10:11 -0400, Ham op wrote: >> It's bad enough that people feel a need to believe in any deities at >> all, but when you have to listen to a bunch of old men in robes half a >> world away tell you how to live your life, you're pretty screwed up. > >Ted, I'll pray for you. There's nothing you can do about it! Whatever. I have got to be one of the most "prayed-for" people there is. The people that say they're "praying for me" remind me of the villagers in old horror flicks that would hang up garlic and crucifixes to ward off werewolves, vampires, fire-breathing dragons, Amway dealers, etc. Article: 217343 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:40:08 -0500 Message-ID: <11iutq9d2274acd@news.supernews.com> References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5ujsi196c3dl0l0a7su4uqltnt4u0ql4ko@4ax.com> Same here Ted.... Religion is the opiate of the masses. I prefer a free and satisfied mind... -- Charlie "Uncle Ted" wrote in message news:pfsui1hs60tb8gu55d602rvvfs9s4urn72@4ax.com... > On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:41:38 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: > >>>It's bad enough that people feel a need to believe in any deities at >>>all, but when you have to listen to a bunch of old men in robes half a >>>world away tell you how to live your life, you're pretty screwed up. >> >> Is this a slam against our Muslim brethren? A comment on the >>position of Saudi Arabian women? > > Pope worshipers and Mohamahdists are all the same to me... Article: 217344 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: kashe@sonic.net Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: References: <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 04:02:14 GMT On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:02:40 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: >kashe@sonic.net wrote: >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>>Richard Clark wrote: >>>>Christian charity is not fulfilled by a shrug of the HOA committee, >>>>and members who enjoy the veil of these rules won't find it any easier >>>>getting through the eye of the needle. >>> >>>The small "eye of the needle" gate at the walls of a city >>>was sized for human beings. It was camels that couldn't >>>get through it. Camels had to enter through the main gate. >> >> But the reference was to it being as difficult for a rich man >> (as in dweller of the gated community type) as for the camel .... > >Nowhere in The Bible does it say anything about a man finding >it difficult to go through the eye of the needle. The "eye of >the needle" gate was designed to allow men through, even rich >ones, and keep camels out. The difficult thing for men was to >enter the Kingdom of God, not get through the "eye of the >needle" gate. Agreed. I think it got lost in my trailing ellipsis. :-) man:heaven - camel:eye, more or less. Article: 217345 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: kashe@sonic.net Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 04:03:13 GMT On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:44:49 -0400, Ham op wrote: >kashe@sonic.net wrote: > >SNIPPED > >>>Discounts I don't know but Chatholic dogma still provides for the sale >>>of Indulenges for sin >> >> >> Far from correct. Catholiic dogma in fact has a specific name >> for the sin of selling indulgences or objects which have been blessed >> -- it's called simony. Since at least the 40s, AFAIK. >> > >Since the 1st Century. [Reference: Acts 8:18-24] OK, maybe the 0040s. :-) Article: 217346 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "pezSV7BAXdag" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:54:15 +0300 Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> | ---------------------------------------------------------- | "Jim Kelley" | wrote in message news:dgnj1t$akk$1@news.service.uci.edu... | | [...] | | "X-rays will prove to be a hoax." | | http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/quotes/ | | ac6xg | ---------------------------------------------------------- A I hope you will excuse me the next example. Let f = Sin[x] I choose: x = 2*k*pi and k goes to infinity one by one: 0, 1, 2, ... Definitely then I found correctly f(oo) = 0. Cecil chooses: x = 2*k*pi + pi/2 and k goes to infinity one by one, as before. Definitely he founds correctly f(oo) = +1 Lord Kelvin chose: x = 2*k*pi - pi/2 and k went to infinity one by one, as above. Definitely he founded correctly f(oo) = -1 All of us we are correct in all steps, but the value f(oo) does not exist as a single one. In fact f(oo) takes every value between -1 and +1. f(oo) definitely depends on the way in which each one of us went to infinity. IMHO: this is the kind of behavior of Zinp. B But in addition to that there is one more to say: Zinp is a result of the order in which we consider the limits for the wire radius and the length to wavelength ratio. If a is the wire radius and L/wl is the ratio of length to wavelength then I can imagine five cases: 1 First the a is going to zero, a formula is produced for Zinp, then the L/wl is going to infinity and a number may or may not be the result for Zinp. 2 First the L/wl is going to infinity a formula is produced for Zinp, then the a is going to zero and a number may or may not be the result for Zinp. 3 Simultaneously, both the L/wl is going to infinity and the a is going to zero, and a number may or may not be the result for Zinp. 4 We keep a constant value for L/wl, then a is going to zero and a number may or may not be the result for Zinp. 5 We keep a constant value for a, then L/wl is going to infinity and a number may or may not be the result for Zinp. [ On the occasion I have to confess that the movie at [ http://antennas.ee.duth.gr/ftp/visualantennas/thedipole/films/fu010100.zip [ 850 KB [ belongs to the last case. For a possible conclusion let me mention a remarkable note from a Mathematical book: "The biggest source of erroneous conclusions have to do with the order we consider the limits" (and which order we tend then to forget ... ) Sincerely, pezSV7BAXdag Article: 217347 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Edmund Laport "Radio Antenna Engineering" now in paperback edition Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:22:39 -0000 Message-ID: <11ivalf2vitoob2@corp.supernews.com> Back in May, I announced the availability of an electronic (PDF) edition of Edmund Laport's 1952 text "Radio Antenna Engineering", which I'd created by scanning a copy of the book after I confirmed that the original copyright had expired. The reaction to this has been quite satisfying - it's been downloaded over 200 times via my BitTorrent server, and at least as much more from one or another HTTP server. A few weeks ago, I received an excellent suggestion from Ed KI4AGL. He proposed that I upload the PDF to LuLu.com, a "publish and print on demand" company, so that people who wanted a hardcopy of this book could purchase one conveniently. I hadn't heard of LuLu, so I checked them out, and was impressed by what I saw. It turned out to be quite easy to set up an account, upload a slightly-tweaked version of the book's PDF, create a cover for it, and make it available to purchasers. Ed ordered one, and wrote me yesterday to say that it has arrived and that it looks good - the text and pictures all came out clearly. LuLu describes their product as being "bookstore-quality paperbacks" and from Ed's report it sounds like that's a fair description. As published through LuLu, "Radio Antenna Engineering" is a 6-by-9- inch softcover, printed on 60-pound paper stock, with a glued-edge "perfect binding". It's what's usually called a "trade paperback" edition, the same size as the original hardcover edition, and has all of the text and drawings and photographs. The large foldout map of the continental United States, with diagrams of the coverage patterns of certain MF broadcast stations, has been reduced down to fit on a single 6-by-9 page. The price for the book is set by LuLu - they charge by the page and add a flat fee for the binding. I published it using LuLu's "no royalty, no commission" service, which they've set up specifically to encourage people to keep obscure material in print. Postage is additional, depending on how you choose to have it shipped. With basic (media-mail) postal delivery in the U.S., the book comes to a bit less than $20. You can order it from: http://www.lulu.com/content/159004 I've added this information and link to my page at http://snulbug.mtview.ca.us/books/RadioAntennaEngineering/ on which you can find the BitTorrent download files, and links to an HTTP server which has the PDFs available. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 217348 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: Telonic VSWr kit "Rho_tector" - anyone used one ? Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:51:09 GMT Hi, I have a Telonic VSWR kit (Model TRB-2) tha is supposed to be good to 2.5GHz. It has 0.5W rating stamped on it , Z1, Z2 , RF in and Detector out. It came wikth 1:1 and 2 x 2:1 Precision terminators. I would like to measure VSWR of antennae at 915 MHz using a RF Sig. Gen, the VSWR kit and a scope. I have a 1GHz spc analyzer also if required. 1. Can I drive this properly with the +13dBm max. from the Sig. Gen and get reasonable results ? 2. If so, what would be a good setup and test method. Thanks in advance for any help. Regards David Article: 217349 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "W3JDR" References: <11ivalf2vitoob2@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Edmund Laport "Radio Antenna Engineering" now in paperback edition Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:27:12 GMT Dave, I downloaded the free copy of this and looked at it. It is a very fine piece of reproduction work on your part. The care you took to line everything up correctly, as well as the quality of the scans, have resulted in a reproduction that is almost as good as new. I intend to peruse it a little, and then perhaps purchase a professionally bound copy from the LuLu service you identiified. Thanks again for your hard work and a great job! Joe W3JDR "Dave Platt" wrote in message news:11ivalf2vitoob2@corp.supernews.com... > Back in May, I announced the availability of an electronic (PDF) > edition of Edmund Laport's 1952 text "Radio Antenna Engineering", > which I'd created by scanning a copy of the book after I confirmed > that the original copyright had expired. The reaction to this has > been quite satisfying - it's been downloaded over 200 times via my > BitTorrent server, and at least as much more from one or another HTTP > server. > > A few weeks ago, I received an excellent suggestion from Ed KI4AGL. > He proposed that I upload the PDF to LuLu.com, a "publish and print on > demand" company, so that people who wanted a hardcopy of this book > could purchase one conveniently. > > I hadn't heard of LuLu, so I checked them out, and was impressed by > what I saw. It turned out to be quite easy to set up an account, > upload a slightly-tweaked version of the book's PDF, create a cover > for it, and make it available to purchasers. Ed ordered one, and > wrote me yesterday to say that it has arrived and that it looks good - > the text and pictures all came out clearly. LuLu describes their > product as being "bookstore-quality paperbacks" and from Ed's report > it sounds like that's a fair description. > > As published through LuLu, "Radio Antenna Engineering" is a 6-by-9- > inch softcover, printed on 60-pound paper stock, with a glued-edge > "perfect binding". It's what's usually called a "trade paperback" > edition, the same size as the original hardcover edition, and has all > of the text and drawings and photographs. The large foldout map of > the continental United States, with diagrams of the coverage patterns > of certain MF broadcast stations, has been reduced down to fit on a > single 6-by-9 page. > > The price for the book is set by LuLu - they charge by the page > and add a flat fee for the binding. I published it using LuLu's "no > royalty, no commission" service, which they've set up specifically to > encourage people to keep obscure material in print. Postage is > additional, depending on how you choose to have it shipped. With > basic (media-mail) postal delivery in the U.S., the book comes to a > bit less than $20. > > You can order it from: http://www.lulu.com/content/159004 > > I've added this information and link to my page at > http://snulbug.mtview.ca.us/books/RadioAntennaEngineering/ on which > you can find the BitTorrent download files, and links to an HTTP > server which has the PDFs available. > > -- > Dave Platt AE6EO > Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior > I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will > boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 217350 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Matt" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:19:26 +0930 Message-ID: References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <34sui1h78dnnf7upi6oasunk6c3quvikup@4ax.com> <6YWdnWb9yuNterLeRVn-tA@comcast.com> "Ham op" wrote in message news:6YWdnWb9yuNterLeRVn-tA@comcast.com... > Even with your disbelief, I'll still pray for you. > > There are two common anecdotes. One in Christianity, the other in Islam. > > 1] Work like everything depends on you. Pray like everything depends on God! > > 2] Trust Allah, but tie your camel. > > Here is a message from a Baptist [Christian] Pastor about 10 years ago. > > "Man does his part; God does His part. > Man does the sinning; God does the saving." > > May God increase your faith. > + + + This thread has degenerated into religious shit fighting. It has absolutely sweet fuck all to do with any of the NGs that it has been posted to- how about we either revert to the original topic, close this thread down, or move it to a religious discussion group where I feel that it would be far more appropriate. Please? Matt Article: 217351 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1127125278.923840.211310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127173487.499771.305320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127188828.597491.215000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: 802.11 antennas Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:51:55 -0400 Message-ID: <25f76$433026e2$97d56a13$32237@ALLTEL.NET> See P.T. Barnum - something about "A sucker born every minute"... wrote in message news:1127188828.597491.215000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Also, out of curiosity, why would any one wants to pay $200 for a 3 ft > long antenna vs $60 for a less than 1 ft long antenna of the same gain, > only because the $200 is an outdoor one? > Article: 217352 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: How do you find antenna resonance Message-ID: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:45:03 GMT I have a 1/2 wave - end fed whip antenna that has been designed for operation on 915 MHz. A Signal Generator is attached to a VSWR detector. The reference port is 50 Ohms. The antenna is connected to Z2 port and the detector output to an oscilloscope. I have calibrated the output for 50 Ohms and noted the 2:1 VSWR voltage when using a 2:1 precision ref at Z2 in place of the antenna. I have a Spectrum analyzer with short wire as a pickup to observe radiation from antenna (I image 1/2 the trouble is here ?) When I sweep manually across say 800 MHz to 1GHz the VSWR gets worse when the radiated power increases and visa versa. When I then plug in a commercial antenna the VSWR does the same thing EXCEPT when it is in the region it is resonant, the VSWR improves as the level rises, at all other points the VSWR goes down as radiated power increases. Is there something silly going on here or is this what should happen. This is the first time I have attempted to measure an antenna so would appreciate any help. I notice the peaks at a reasonably fixed period (816,879,933,993,1.051G), can I learn something about the antenna from how apart these peaks ? Thanks in advance, Article: 217353 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: 802.11 antennas References: <1127125278.923840.211310@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127173487.499771.305320@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127188828.597491.215000@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:48:34 -0500 Cost to manufacture/distribute is often the calculation starting point when determining final price.. Prices tend to be set at whatever the market will bear.... Also note that those with flashy paint jobs and go-fast stripes will always cost more! Antennas designed/built long ago may have to amortise higher design costs. Then again more sales over the years should have bought the price down. Quality? Longevity? Gain should not be the sole method for making a choice of what antenna to buy. I personally would also look at sidelobe performance (for reduction of possible interference). One also has to calculate the path requirements and signal margins to do the job properly. Allowing for cable loss is another biggy. Many big spread spectrum suppliers (eg Cisco) have a spreadsheet you can download for calculating the link budget for an LOS path. Re increasing the gain w/out and incerase in size, generally not. If you load the elements in such a way that they are smaller to make use of phasing (eg a collinear) then losses are introduced as well as the aperture getting smaller. My opinion is that you'd have better directivity but no/little increase of gain in the intended direction. The donut would be flatter by the way. Would you care to explain your exact requirements? Like are you trying for point to point links or just a larger hot spot coverage. They have diferent antenna requirments. Cheers Bob W5/VK2YQA titus@ieee.org wrote: . > > Also, out of curiosity, why would any one wants to pay $200 for a 3 ft > long antenna vs $60 for a less than 1 ft long antenna of the same gain, > only because the $200 is an outdoor one? > Article: 217354 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: E H Antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:39:17 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: "Fred W4JLE" wrote > Don't hold back Reg, tell us what you really think. :>) > =================================== A perceptive comment. As a foriegner, if I told you what I really think I would immediately receive a load of invitations to an unfinished tea party in Boston, which I would be unable to attend. ---- Reg. Article: 217355 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance From: Cecil Moore Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:12:32 -0500 Message-ID: <1127236512_15129@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> David wrote: > I have a 1/2 wave - end fed whip antenna that has been designed for > operation on 915 MHz. Last time I inquired about this antenna I was told it wasn't an end-fed but instead was a center-fed sleeve antenna. So which is it? (Anti)resonance on a bona fide end-fed 1/2WL antenna is pretty hard to nail down but it doesn't much matter. One just usually searches for a 50 ohm tap on a coil. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217356 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Message-ID: References: <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:19:51 -0400 On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:43:59 -0700, Jim Kelley wrote: >Reg Edwards wrote: > > >> And remember Lord Kelvin. >> ---- >> Reg. >> > >"To measure is to know." > >also > >"X-rays will prove to be a hoax." > >http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/quotes/ > >ac6xg Terrific reference, Jim, I've added it to my 'favorites'. Walt Article: 217357 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "W3JDR" References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:20:16 GMT >I notice the peaks at a reasonably fixed period >(816,879,933,993,1.051G), can I learn something about the antenna from >how apart these peaks ? David, Judging from your comment above, it appears that the VSWR peaks are happening at a very periodic spacing of about 60MHz. This would imply to me that you're analyzing the antenna by looking into a feedline that is 1/4 wavelength long at 60 MHz. This would be about 49 inches times the velocity factor of the coax. Thus I'd estimate that your feedline is in the mid 30" range. Is this the case? Joe W3JDR "David" wrote in message news:38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > I have a 1/2 wave - end fed whip antenna that has been designed for > operation on 915 MHz. > > A Signal Generator is attached to a VSWR detector. The reference port is > 50 Ohms. The antenna is connected to Z2 port and the detector output to > an oscilloscope. > > I have calibrated the output for 50 Ohms and noted the 2:1 VSWR voltage when > using a 2:1 precision ref at Z2 in place of the antenna. > > I have a Spectrum analyzer with short wire as a pickup to observe > radiation from antenna (I image 1/2 the trouble is here ?) > > When I sweep manually across say 800 MHz to 1GHz the VSWR gets worse > when the radiated power increases and visa versa. > > When I then plug in a commercial antenna the VSWR does the same thing > EXCEPT when it is in the region it is resonant, the VSWR improves as the > level rises, at all other points the VSWR goes down as radiated power > increases. > > Is there something silly going on here or is this what should happen. > This is the first time I have attempted to measure an antenna so would > appreciate any help. > I notice the peaks at a reasonably fixed period > (816,879,933,993,1.051G), can I learn something about the antenna from > how apart these peaks ? > > Thanks in advance, Article: 217358 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:27:44 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> Richard Clark wrote: > On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:43:59 -0700, Jim Kelley > wrote: > >>Reg Edwards wrote: >> >>>And remember Lord Kelvin. >> >>"X-rays will prove to be a hoax." >>http://zapatopi.net/kelvin/quotes/ > > > Hi Jim, > > Certainly a trove of complexity. Keeping to the tenor of your choice: > "I have not had a moment's peace or happiness in respect to > electromagnetic theory since November 28, 1846. All this time I > have been liable to fits of ether dipsomania, kept away at > intervals only by rigorous abstention from thought on the > subject." Or as is my case, intervals of rigorous abstention from participating in discussions on rec.radio.amateur.antenna. ac6xg Article: 217359 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "zappa" Subject: long wire antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:21:23 +0200 Message-ID: <43306f44$0$245$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Hi there, I want to install a long wire antenna to my Sony ICF-SW7600GR, so I'm wondering whether it will significantly improve reception of already available broadcasts as well as getting new, farther, emissions. How that long wire antenna should be made? I mean length, kind of wire, ... I'm quite naive in the shortwave listening world, thus any kind of help would be very appreciated! Article: 217360 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ian Jackson Subject: Re: Telonic VSWr kit "Rho_tector" - anyone used one ? Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:55:21 +0100 Message-ID: References: In message , David writes >Hi, > >I have a Telonic VSWR kit (Model TRB-2) tha is supposed to be good to >2.5GHz. It has 0.5W rating stamped on it , Z1, Z2 , RF in and Detector >out. > >It came wikth 1:1 and 2 x 2:1 Precision terminators. > >I would like to measure VSWR of antennae at 915 MHz using a RF Sig. >Gen, the VSWR kit and a scope. I have a 1GHz spc analyzer also if >required. > >1. Can I drive this properly with the +13dBm max. from the Sig. Gen and >get reasonable results ? > >2. If so, what would be a good setup and test method. > >Thanks in advance for any help. > >Regards > >David The Rhotector which I know is a Wheatstone bridge. It has a built-in detector. The output is DC. You don't need a spectrum analyser. You can use a multimeter. I used it with a sweep generator which had a maximum output of about 56dBmV (about 8dBm). The easiest way of using it is to insert a switched attenuator between the generator and the RF input port. Connect the 1:1 load to Z1 or Z2 (the 'reference' port), and a 2:1 to the other (the 'unknown' port). This represents an RLR of 10dB. Set as much attenuation in which is consistent with getting a sensible level of DC out (say, 20dB). Note the reading. Remove the 2:1 load, and connect the antenna. Re-set the attenuator to give the same DC reading. Note the attenuator setting. The RLR of the antenna is simply 10dB + or - the difference in the attenuator readings. There is a small amount of error because the loading on the generator is affected by the load on the 'unknown' port (unless the generator has zero output impedance, which it won't have). There ways of reducing this, but it isn't worth it. Your answer will be good enough for most purposes. I'll send a diagram if you need one. Cheers, Ian. -- Article: 217361 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1127240139.756430.52570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:42:24 GMT Sorry about my description of the antenna. I still have not yet come to grips with the terms of reference. I called it end fed because the coax enters at the bottom but I have been advised it is actually a centre fed dipole. The decoupling is via a 1/4 wave sleeve that provides high impedance for RF returning along outer coax and also as the second 1/2 of the dipole. The level I noted is the signal strength seen on a spectrum analyzer (80mm wire at end of 1m cable) - this may be the 30" section that is producing the 60MHz dips. I also noticed the wavelength of this pickup wire is close to 1/4 wave at frequency of interest. Would I be better to put a directional coupler in line with the Signal Generator output and sniff off to spec analyzer and look at dips in signal strength as indication of radiation occurring ? (I would like to see what the radiated power is doing at the same time as the VSWR is all over the place and hard to see what is happening when looking at that only). If I can do away with the wire pickup on the spectrum analyzer I can at least remove the effects of this being super imposed on the results. The commercial antenna I am comparing against does have a peak radiated power at min. VSWR at frequency of interest and my antenna does not. The style of antenna is the same (1/4 wave shunt sleeve and 1/4 wave radiating element). Thanks for any more help. Regards David K7ITM wrote: > A half-wave end-fed wire, fed against a ground plane or similar > counterpoise, will show a high impedance at (and near) resonance. If > the antenna is fed through some length of line from the "VSWR > detector," the impedance presented to the detector will be modified by > that length of line; a 1000 ohm antenna might reflect 3 ohms through > the line. But why would you expect a drop in indicated VSWR at > resonance? -- When you say "when the radiated power increases," are > you talking about increased field strength as measured by the spectrum > analyzer, with a constant output setting from the generator? How far > away is the spectrum analyzer antenna, in wavelengths, from the antenna > you are trying to measure? > > If, as Cecil suspects, the antenna is really a center-fed half-wave, > what have you done to decouple the feedline from the antenna? If the > feedline comes coaxially out the end of the antenna, it may well be > that the feedline is very poorly decoupled. > > Cheers, > Tom > Article: 217362 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:31:03 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > > Nowhere in The Bible does it say anything about a man finding > it difficult to go through the eye of the needle. The "eye of > the needle" gate was designed to allow men through, even rich > ones, and keep camels out. The difficult thing for men was to > enter the Kingdom of God, not get through the "eye of the > needle" gate. I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand why we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of civilization. tom K0TAR Article: 217363 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:35:29 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <34sui1h78dnnf7upi6oasunk6c3quvikup@4ax.com> <6YWdnWb9yuNterLeRVn-tA@comcast.com> Message-ID: <4330aad1$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Ham op wrote: > Matt wrote: > > SNIPPED > >> This thread has degenerated into religious shit fighting. It has >> absolutely >> sweet fuck all to do with any of the NGs that it has been posted to- how >> about we either revert to the original topic, close this thread down, or >> move it to a religious discussion group where I feel that it would be far >> more appropriate. Please? >> >> >> Matt >> >> > > Your point is valid. Your language needs serious improvement! > Actually, his language was perfectly appropriate. tom K0TAR Article: 217364 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:42:30 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <4330ac76$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Ian Jackson" wrote - > >>Are you sure it's as high as that, Reg? I once did a Smith Chart > > plot of > >>the impedance at the centre of a dipole, the valued being taken from > > a > >>table 'compiled by Wu' (LK Wu?). These only catered for a lengths up > > to > >>a few wavelengths. As the plot progressed round and round the Smith >>Chart, it seemed to be heading for something around 350 to 400 ohms. >> >>I've just done a search on 'Wu+dipole+impedance', and one of the > > results > >>is >>http://www.fars.k6ya.org/docs/antenna-impedance-models.pdf >>I'll have a read of it today. > > =================================== > > The characteristic impedance of an infinitely long wire is Zo. > > If we cut the line and measure between the two ends we obtain an input > impedance of twice Zo. Which is the answer to our problem. > > Zo is a function of wavelength, conductor diameter and conductor > resistance R where R includes the uniformly distributed radiation > resistance. On a high Zo line the radiation resistance is small > compared with Zo and the only effect of the radiation resistance is to > give Zo a small negative angle. Which when estimating Zo can be > ignored. (It is conductor resistance which at HF gives Zo of ALL > lines a very small negative angle). > > In the problem posed, the current is also uniformly distributed along > the low-loss line and radiation resistance is not the value we are > familiar with and what we might do with it. > > And so we get approximately - > > Rin = 120 * ( Ln( Wavelength / 2 / d ) - 1 ) > > At a wavelength of 2 metres and a conductor diameter of 10mm the input > resistance = 433 ohms. > > I cannot guarantee the above formula to be correct. But is it low > enough for you? ;o) > > Mr Wu calculates radiation resistance which is not the same as input > impedance unless correctly referenced. It is usual in technical papers > to calculate Radres at one end of the antenna. Or it may be the > distributed value. I havn't the time to find and study the full text. > From past experience, with me, it usually ends up as a wild goose > chase. > ---- > Reg. > > Sounds reasonable, Reg. To put it for simple people like me, it would mean it's a transmission line of diameter x with an infinite diameter shield. Then we feed 2 of them, balanced, colinear, and that's our R sub r. Did I misunderstand? tom K0TAR Article: 217365 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:45:36 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <11iu8prqjemt4f@corp.supernews.com> <11iuge66uplqb55@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <4330ad30$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Roy Lewallen wrote: > Sure. 42. It might not be better, but it's just as good. Formulas can be > made very simple if you simply ignore any inconvenient facts. Like > radiation from an antenna. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL 42. The answer to the question, of life, the universe, and everything. The movie wasn't bad, but the radio play was still better. tom K0TAR Article: 217366 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:55:34 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330ac76$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <4330af86$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > > Sounds reasonable, Reg. To put it for simple people like me, it would > mean it's a transmission line of diameter x with an infinite diameter > shield. Then we feed 2 of them, balanced, colinear, and that's our R > sub r. > > Did I misunderstand? > Minus the radiation, of course. Now, the question is, how much does that change things. Article: 217367 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:47:52 -0500 Message-ID: <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand > why we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of > civilization. If the "Kingdom of God" doesn't actually exist in reality, it was an especially logical statement, eh? :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217368 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:13:23 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <4330cfd4$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Tom Ring wrote: > >> I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand >> why we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of >> civilization. > > > If the "Kingdom of God" doesn't actually exist in reality, > it was an especially logical statement, eh? :-) The amazing thing is that all these very smart people actually believe this stuff. tom K0TAR Article: 217369 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:50:39 -0500 Message-ID: <11j1m569peve9e6@news.supernews.com> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> So True Tom..... Been there...done that! -- Charlie "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > Cecil Moore wrote: >> >> Nowhere in The Bible does it say anything about a man finding >> it difficult to go through the eye of the needle. The "eye of >> the needle" gate was designed to allow men through, even rich >> ones, and keep camels out. The difficult thing for men was to >> enter the Kingdom of God, not get through the "eye of the >> needle" gate. > > I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand why > we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of > civilization. > > tom > K0TAR Article: 217370 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:03:20 -0500 Message-ID: <1127275555_19265@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330cfd4$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > The amazing thing is that all these very smart people actually believe > this stuff. Even with our DNA being 96% identical to a chimp's? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217371 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 04:10:43 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330ac76$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <4330af86$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:4330af86$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > Tom Ring wrote: > > > > Sounds reasonable, Reg. To put it for simple people like me, it would > > mean it's a transmission line of diameter x with an infinite diameter > > shield. Then we feed 2 of them, balanced, colinear, and that's our R > > sub r. > > > > Did I misunderstand? > > > > Minus the radiation, of course. > > Now, the question is, how much does that change things. > ================================== Tom, Twas not I who posed the original "input impedance of an infinitely long dipole" question. The radiation resistance does not enter very much into the solution. But in any case the radiation resistance is not the one we are accustomed to because the current distribution along the wire is not of sinewaveform but decays rather slowly exponentially. I've just remembered the name of the real antenna which best fits the problem. It is the terminated Beverage which is just a very long horizontal wire some distance above ground. The Zo of the Beverage is 60 * Ln( 4 * Height / d ) ohms, where d is wire diameter. When terminated its input resistance at LF is Zo (see the Bible, the ARRL Antenna Book). A typical value of Zo is 550 ohms. Note that radiation resistance does not enter the formula although it cannot be denied radiation does occur. The formula is a close approximation which serves present purposes. Putting two Beverages back-to-back to make a dipole we get an input impedance of 1100 ohms. The infinite dipole is in the same high impedance ballpark. To calculate Zo of an isolated infinite dipole we shall have to change dimensions Height above ground disappears and is replaced by wavelength (or frequency). Zo = 60 * ( Ln( Wavelength / 2 / d ) - 1 ) ohms, approximately. A more exact formula involves inverse hyperbolic functions and wavelength, height, wire length, and wire diameter, but nobody ever uses it. You won't find it in Terman. On the favourite American 40-meter band with a 14 AWG infinitely long wire Zo = 505 ohms. Which makes the dipole input impedance = 1010 ohms but a nice, round 1000 ohms is near enough for me. Your 'infinite shield' is a fair description for the return path but the end-effect is fairly large. I prefer 'the rest of the Universe'. But the nearest point is still the Earth's surface. I leave the people, who attempted to use Smith Charts and Eznec to solve the interesting problem, to fathom out where they (or the charts or Eznec) went wrong. ---- Reg. From bradvk2qq at w6ir.com Thu Sep 22 00:04:47 EDT 2005 Article: 217372 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brad" Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy References: <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1127271443.195835.320110@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:59:43 +1000 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Lines: 15 Message-ID: <43313df9$0$253$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Organization: SunSITE.dk - Supporting Open source NNTP-Posting-Host: 220.233.10.63 X-Trace: news.sunsite.dk DXC=3dWfZ=ClXjUjXN@]UnT6J_YSB=nbEKnk[3^NO?_`lj1Q]ehQVF5`KK\[_F2FnmD8IV1[C===>@CT_87H?1]_HLNQJbj0 wrote in message news:1127271443.195835.320110@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... From: K?B on Sep 15, 12:09 pm >How is "Christian charity" different from other charity, and do I need to >be a >member of your cult in order to get through the eye of the needle (and why >would >I want to?)? Christian Charity is a point scoring exercise with God. It is done for selfish reasons, to make sure you are noticed by God and he lets you in. Article: 217373 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330cfd4$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127275555_19265@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:49:38 -0400 Message-ID: <39979$43317324$97d56a13$4724@ALLTEL.NET> While my opinions of Bush are no more or less valid than that of others, facts have shown that President Bush had both Higher SAT's and grades than the "super intelligent" Democratic alternative. "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:pbadna1SLLBncq3eRVn-vg@comcast.com... > Cecil Moore wrote: > > >> The amazing thing is that all these very smart people actually believe > >> this stuff. > > > > > > Even with our DNA being 96% identical to a chimp's? > > > I don't understand why people continue to be surprised that we share 96% > of our DNA with Bush. Article: 217374 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tom Donaly" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:34:04 GMT Fred W4JLE wrote: > Do you not think it somewhat supercilious to cavalierly dismiss the beliefs > held by others? > > Have you been blessed with some special insight to the universe that allows > you to, with such certainty, declare all religious beliefs as superstition? > > > > > "Tom Ring" wrote in message > news:4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > >>I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand >>why we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of >>civilization. >> >>tom >>K0TAR > > > Maybe you should remember this the next time you find yourself hammering non-Christian religions, Fred. I haven't met many religious fanatics who didn't dismiss the beliefs of other people as bunk. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 217375 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Harold Burton" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:54:41 -0500 Message-ID: <11j37iuca45hve6@corp.supernews.com> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330cfd4$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127275555_19265@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <39979$43317324$97d56a13$4724@ALLTEL.NET> "Fred W4JLE" wrote in message news:39979$43317324$97d56a13$4724@ALLTEL.NET... > While my opinions of Bush are no more or less valid than that of others, > facts have shown that President Bush had both Higher SAT's and grades than > the "super intelligent" Democratic alternative. > > "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message > news:pbadna1SLLBncq3eRVn-vg@comcast.com... >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >> >> The amazing thing is that all these very smart people actually believe >> >> this stuff. >> > >> > >> > Even with our DNA being 96% identical to a chimp's? >> I believe the latest info I've seen on that gave a figure of 98.5% identical. Harold KD5SAK Article: 217376 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:49:36 -0400 Message-ID: I hardly consider myself a fanatic, and am extremely unlike to "hammer" anyone over religion, or lack there of. Some of the most fanatical are those members of the religion of atheism. These folks find it threatening that someone may have a set of beliefs, and feel the only recourse is to attack those beliefs. Makes one wonder if they find it necessary to stand in department store lines, demanding that little children give up the idea of Santa Claus, which they find equally believable. I personally don't care what anyone's belief set is. I do find it abhorrent that some are more active for atheism , than a Jehovah Witness beating on the door selling salvation. My feeling is that most are simply crying out for attention, and know the religion button is a simple one to push. "Tom Donaly" wrote in message news:gQgYe.902$xc4.335@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com... > Maybe you should remember this the next time you find yourself > hammering non-Christian religions, Fred. I haven't met many > religious fanatics who didn't dismiss the beliefs of other > people as bunk. > 73, > Tom Donaly, KA6RUH Article: 217377 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: <20050921202354.52A2E1713F@mail.cypherpunks.to> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:23:54 +0200 (CEST) In article <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> "Fred W4JLE" wrote: > > Do you not think it somewhat supercilious to cavalierly dismiss the beliefs > held by others? > > Have you been blessed with some special insight to the universe that allows > you to, with such certainty, declare all religious beliefs as superstition? It's for weak minded fools like you, child molester who pretends to be a christian. > > "Tom Ring" wrote in message > news:4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > > I just love to read superstition discussions. It helps me understand > > why we really haven't gone anywhere except with the technical side of > > civilization. > > > > tom > > K0TAR Article: 217378 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:38:32 -0500 Message-ID: <1127335266_20031@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127271026_15855@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330cfd4$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127275555_19265@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <39979$43317324$97d56a13$4724@ALLTEL.NET> <11j37iuca45hve6@corp.supernews.com> Harold Burton wrote: >>>Cecil Moore wrote: >>>>Even with our DNA being 96% identical to a chimp's? > > I believe the latest info I've seen on that gave a figure of 98.5% > identical. They have only recently decoded the chimp's DNA genome. The new figures seem to be 96% identical, 98.5% very similar. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217379 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:31:56 GMT "Ham op" wrote > > 4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" > If we accept this definition of "religion" as a system of beliefs that contains unprovable statements taken only on faith, then Kurt Godel taught us that mathematics is not only a religion, it is the only religion that can prove itself to be one. 73, de Hans, K0HB Article: 217380 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1127240139.756430.52570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127322926.234874.85900@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:56:20 GMT Tom, Thanks for the information. The inner coax is the smaller RG174 coax. The sleeve is made of earth braid pulled from RG58 cable. The dielectric between the sleeve and inner cable is therefore the outer sheath of the RG174 cable (Not sure what this is, the RG174 I have is Teflon inner dielectric and stranded conductor. The utter sheath is a very strong heat resistant material - I therefore have no ideal of the dielectric constant to calculate Vp for correct electrical length). If I use a copper tube and strip off the sheath from the inner coax, I can calculate correct length as it will have an air dielectric. Do you know where everyone is getting the dielectric constants for various materials ? I noted people using small metal tubes as sleeves and quoting these magic numbers even for copper tubes of certain diameters. From my discussion with Telonic, they say the Rho_Tector was designed as an in-house tool for measuring inputs of amps and filters. They suggest SWR meter would probably be best for antenna adjustments. Do you happen to know where I might find details for a low power SWR meter for 915 MHz ? I need one that will operate with only 20mW applied power. The only SWR meter I have has min. FSD of 3W Thanks Regards David K7ITM wrote: > Hi David, > > You wrote, "The decoupling is via a 1/4 wave sleeve that provides high > impedance for > RF returning along outer coax and also as the second 1/2 of the > dipole. " > > EXACTLY how is this built? The details of construction make a BIG > difference in performance! (There's a lot of BAD info about it out > there...) > > It's not a bad idea to ALSO put some additional decoupling further down > the feedline. > > If your spectrum analyzer/field strength meter is far enough away from > the antenna you are testing, then it should provide a reasonable > indication of relative antenna radiation performance. The SWR > indication, if properly calibrated and given that you are apparently > exciting the antenna with a source whose output impedance matches your > feedline, should also be a good indication of power actually absorbed > by the antenna. That is, lowest SWR represents maximum power absorbed > by the antenna. Presumably that power is being radiated as RF, mostly, > and not dissipated as heat. But where the RF radiation goes depends on > the pattern of currents excited on the conductors that compose the > antenna, and nearby conductors as well (such as the feedline). What > you probably want is standard resonant half-wave dipole currents on > your vertical dipole, and no (very little) antenna current on the > feedline and on support structures. By the way, whether the antenna is > resonant or not is of little real importance, so long as you can > efficiently feed power to it and the antenna currents are in the right > places and not the wrong places. But it happens that with your > antenna, if things are working properly (properly decoupled feedline, > etc), you probably will see lowest SWR at half-wave resonance. If you > have no other matching going on, the lowest SWR will probably be about > 1.5:1 with 50 ohm feedline. You could add parts to get a better match > if you wished. > > And as you can probably tell from all that, I'm suspecting that your > decoupling sleeve, with associated dielectrics in that area, probably > isn't doing a very good job... > > Also...Joe noted that your coax feedline may well be a length that > accounts for the SWR peaks and valleys. (I think it may be about twice > as long as Joe wrote...but same idea.) Do you see the peaks and > valleys when you terminate the line in the precision 2:1 load? If you > do NOT, then it's a further indication that the feedline has antenna > currents on it, because the flat 2:1 is an indication that your > transmission line is matched to the calibration impedance of the SWR > bridge, and if that's the case, the SWR bridge should be giving at > reasonably accurate estimate of the actual line SWR. If you DO see the > SWR ripples vs frequency with just the precision load, either the load > isn't "flat" or the line is not the same impedance as the SWR bridge is > calibrated to, and the differing impedances is by far the most probable > explanation if the line length is right. > > Cheers, > Tom > Article: 217381 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Pat Stevens" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:59:14 GMT This is way off-topic. Watch out for Pat, before he nails you. "Mike Coslo" wrote in message news:zu-dnbKc0OHYbKzeRVn-jA@adelphia.com... > KØHB wrote: >> "Fred W4JLE" wrote >> >> >>>.... members of the religion of atheism. >> >> >> Fred, that idea is straight out of Alice in Wonderland! >> >> Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion. >> Sunuvagun! > > Hans, the Atheism as a religion is just a reserve argument that the CC > Fundies are holding in their hands, so that they can claim that Evolution > is a (atheistic) belief, and therefore a religion, which leads to the > argument that they have every right to force their religious beliefs on > us, since the "religion" of evolution has been forced on the nations > children for so long. > > - Mike KB3EIA - Article: 217382 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: <4WmYe.1867$0m6.1382@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:29:52 GMT "Mike Coslo" wrote > Pat Stevens wrote: >> This is way off-topic. Watch out for Pat, before he nails you. > > I have faith in that! > Verily, verily sayest thee! Beware, lest thou be smitten by Lord Pat! 73, de Hans, K0HB Grand Exhalted Liberator of the Electric Smoke Article: 217383 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris I Townsend Subject: www.ukradioamateur Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 01:37:44 +0100 Message-ID: <0viyS+TYzfMDFwDp@holmfirth.demon.co.uk> Hi, Some of you, hopefully many of you, may be aware of the existence of the "Amateur Radio Course" project which provides a number on-line and downloadable tutorials for the various UK amateur radio examinations. Due to the sudden, unexpected and unexplained withdrawal of support by the company who up to now have very kindly hosted our web-site free of charge, and their even more unexpected failure to communicate with me regarding how we might transfer or redirect the URL which they registered for us but now will not let us use, our site is no longer available to the clubs and individuals who benefited from it. Can you therefore help us and please publicise as widely as possible the following information. The "Amateur Radio Course" which was located at www.ukradioamateur.org is now relocated at www.radioamateur.co.uk There may be a number of functions that are not working due to the sudden move, but they will be fixed within the next few days. It remains, as always, a non-profit making activity sponsored and supported entirely by the group of individuals who give up their time and resources free of charge to support and promote interest in the hobby. I apologise for posting this message in so many newsgroups, but I need the new URL to be publicised as rapidly as possible. Many thanks to you for your help, best wishes and 73's Chris G8PUT -- Chris I Townsend (chris@cbnr.net) Article: 217384 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris I Townsend Subject: www.ukradioamateur 2 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 02:04:32 +0100 Message-ID: Hi, 2nd post, the first contained an error, the new address should have been given as www.ukradioamateur.co.uk Some of you, hopefully many of you, may be aware of the existence of the "Amateur Radio Course" project which provides a number on-line and downloadable tutorials for the various UK amateur radio examinations. Due to the sudden, unexpected and unexplained withdrawal of support by the company who up to now have very kindly hosted our web-site free of charge, and their even more unexpected failure to communicate with me regarding how we might transfer or redirect the URL which they registered for us but now will not let us use, our site is no longer available to the clubs and individuals who benefited from it. Can you therefore help us and please publicise as widely as possible the following information. The "Amateur Radio Course" which was located at www.ukradioamateur.org is now relocated at www.ukradioamateur.co.uk There may be a number of functions that are not working due to the sudden move, but they will be fixed within the next few days. It remains, as always, a non-profit making activity sponsored and supported entirely by the group of individuals who give up their time and resources free of charge to support and promote interest in the hobby. I apologise for posting this message in so many newsgroups, but I need the new URL to be publicised as rapidly as possible. Many thanks to you for your help, best wishes and 73's Chris G8PUT -- Chris I Townsend (chris@cbnr.net) Article: 217385 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:49:17 -0500 Message-ID: <1127353913_243@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> <1126247960.516709.218910@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126296865.329405.72430@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> KØHB wrote: > 73, de Hans, K0HB > Agnostic ("Maybe you're right, but I'm not going to take it on faith.") Some say yes, some say no, and I'm inclined to agree. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217386 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: kashe@sonic.net Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: <3f84j1t6o536tgnekhutv1ruepdo5d5ggs@4ax.com> References: <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5ujsi196c3dl0l0a7su4uqltnt4u0ql4ko@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:16:14 GMT On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:22:10 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:41:38 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: > >>>It's bad enough that people feel a need to believe in any deities at >>>all, but when you have to listen to a bunch of old men in robes half a >>>world away tell you how to live your life, you're pretty screwed up. >> >> Is this a slam against our Muslim brethren? A comment on the >>position of Saudi Arabian women? > >Pope worshipers and Mohamahdists are all the same to me... That says more about you than about them. Article: 217387 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: kashe@sonic.net Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: References: <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5ujsi196c3dl0l0a7su4uqltnt4u0ql4ko@4ax.com> <11iutq9d2274acd@news.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:17:10 GMT On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:40:08 -0500, "Charlie" wrote: >Same here Ted.... > >Religion is the opiate of the masses. Mindless Marxist cliches are the opiate of the sub-intelligent. > >I prefer a free and satisfied mind... Article: 217388 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1127240139.756430.52570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127322926.234874.85900@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1127370912.498824.180680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:02:59 GMT Tom, Thanks for the suggestion. I have used RFsim and come up with dimensions for a 915 MHz version. I would like to put a coupling strip each side of the centre to pick up forward and reverse power at the same time. The description in RFsim don't mention this - Do you know if I need to make any alterations in dimensions to accommodate this or should I have a second 1/4 in series with another coupler that picks up reverse power ? I would like to use the AD8302 Gain/Phase device to measure the incident and reflected voltages. This thing will has an input range of -60dBm to 0dBm which will be great if I feed the directional coupler with 0dBm and the coupling is -20dB. It provides measurement for +/- 30dB and Phase orange over 180 degrees. It also will operate to 2.7GHz so should be ok for the 915Mhz. I thought I would make this gain/phase detector in a separate enclosure so I can unplug it from the directional coupler and use it for Amp gain/phase etc. With additional of a PIC micro and LCD display it could be programmed to provide various measurement types. There are construction details in the ARRL Antenna book for a fixed gain antenna that looks good for a reference. Hopefully this will give me a suitable arrangement for setting up 900MHz band antennae using the sig gen power levels. Regards David K7ITM wrote: > I would expect the outer is a Teflon or Teflon-like material, with > probably low loss and fairly low relative dielectric constant, but it's > still going to require that you shorten that lower section quite a bit > to get the quarter-wave stub to reflect a high impedance. In addition, > the dielectric between the outer of the coax and the inner of the > sleeve is pretty thin, and the impedance of the resulting coaxial > arrangement is pretty low. That means that it won't ever reflect a > very high impedance. You can use a tapered sleeve that bells out at > the bottom, to good effect. That will also lower the feedpoint > impedance and match better to 50 ohms. Think: ground plane with > drooping radials. But you can also wind the coax just below the > antenna into a small coil (I'd make the axis of the coil coincide with > the axis of the antenna) that's self-resonant near your operating > frequency, and it will very effectively choke off antenna current > (current on the outside of the coax) at that point. Put one such coil > an inch or so below the bottom of the sleeve, and another about a > quarter wave further down the line. > > SWR meter: Get RFSim99--do a Google search for it. Build a coupler, > per tools>>design>>coupler. I'd suggest a microstrip version, if you > can make a little PC board reasonably accurately. Design it for 50 > ohms. Terminate each coupled port in 50 ohms (e.g. 49.9 ohm 0805 SMT > part). Using vanishingly short leads, connect a simple diode detector > to each of those two loads. Use a calibrated attenuator to calibrate > at least the relative response of those detectors. Use those two > outputs to calculate SWR. You can read the diode detector outputs with > a DVM that has good resolution (10uV sensitivity preferred; 1uV is even > better). I'd recommend about a 20dB coupler for the power level you're > using, though even a 30dB coupler would work. Try terminating the > through line in a 49.9 ohm (or a parallel pair of 100 ohm) 0805 parts > to check that you see essentially no reflected, and try a 100 ohm load > and a 25 ohm load to check that you get the expected reflected. -- To > have the coupling right according to the RFSim99 directions, it needs > to be 1/4 wave long, but it's a pretty broad peak. Coupling drops to > zero at 1/2 wave, and at DC. So you could make one for 900MHz, and it > would work OK at 450MHz, you'd just get lower coupling. The ratio for > SWR would still be OK. The 450MHz version on FR4 board > (fiberglass-epoxy) would be roughly four inches long, if my mental > arithmetic is right, and half that for 900MHz. > > Cheers, > Tom > > > David wrote: > >>Tom, >> >>Thanks for the information. The inner coax is the smaller RG174 coax. >>The sleeve is made of earth braid pulled from RG58 cable. The dielectric >>between the sleeve and inner cable is therefore the outer sheath of the >>RG174 cable (Not sure what this is, the RG174 I have is Teflon inner >>dielectric and stranded conductor. The utter sheath is a very strong >>heat resistant material - I therefore have no ideal of the dielectric >>constant to calculate Vp for correct electrical length). If I use a >>copper tube and strip off the sheath from the inner coax, I can >>calculate correct length as it will have an air dielectric. >> >>Do you know where everyone is getting the dielectric constants for >>various materials ? I noted people using small metal tubes as sleeves >>and quoting these magic numbers even for copper tubes of certain diameters. >> >> From my discussion with Telonic, they say the Rho_Tector was designed >>as an in-house tool for measuring inputs of amps and filters. They >>suggest SWR meter would probably be best for antenna adjustments. >>Do you happen to know where I might find details for a low power SWR >>meter for 915 MHz ? I need one that will operate with only 20mW applied >>power. The only SWR meter I have has min. FSD of 3W >> >>Thanks >> >>Regards >> >>David >> >>K7ITM wrote: >> >>>Hi David, >>> >>>You wrote, "The decoupling is via a 1/4 wave sleeve that provides high >>>impedance for >>> RF returning along outer coax and also as the second 1/2 of the >>>dipole. " >>> >>>EXACTLY how is this built? The details of construction make a BIG >>>difference in performance! (There's a lot of BAD info about it out >>>there...) >>> >>>It's not a bad idea to ALSO put some additional decoupling further down >>>the feedline. >>> >>>If your spectrum analyzer/field strength meter is far enough away from >>>the antenna you are testing, then it should provide a reasonable >>>indication of relative antenna radiation performance. The SWR >>>indication, if properly calibrated and given that you are apparently >>>exciting the antenna with a source whose output impedance matches your >>>feedline, should also be a good indication of power actually absorbed >>>by the antenna. That is, lowest SWR represents maximum power absorbed >>>by the antenna. Presumably that power is being radiated as RF, mostly, >>>and not dissipated as heat. But where the RF radiation goes depends on >>>the pattern of currents excited on the conductors that compose the >>>antenna, and nearby conductors as well (such as the feedline). What >>>you probably want is standard resonant half-wave dipole currents on >>>your vertical dipole, and no (very little) antenna current on the >>>feedline and on support structures. By the way, whether the antenna is >>>resonant or not is of little real importance, so long as you can >>>efficiently feed power to it and the antenna currents are in the right >>>places and not the wrong places. But it happens that with your >>>antenna, if things are working properly (properly decoupled feedline, >>>etc), you probably will see lowest SWR at half-wave resonance. If you >>>have no other matching going on, the lowest SWR will probably be about >>>1.5:1 with 50 ohm feedline. You could add parts to get a better match >>>if you wished. >>> >>>And as you can probably tell from all that, I'm suspecting that your >>>decoupling sleeve, with associated dielectrics in that area, probably >>>isn't doing a very good job... >>> >>>Also...Joe noted that your coax feedline may well be a length that >>>accounts for the SWR peaks and valleys. (I think it may be about twice >>>as long as Joe wrote...but same idea.) Do you see the peaks and >>>valleys when you terminate the line in the precision 2:1 load? If you >>>do NOT, then it's a further indication that the feedline has antenna >>>currents on it, because the flat 2:1 is an indication that your >>>transmission line is matched to the calibration impedance of the SWR >>>bridge, and if that's the case, the SWR bridge should be giving at >>>reasonably accurate estimate of the actual line SWR. If you DO see the >>>SWR ripples vs frequency with just the precision load, either the load >>>isn't "flat" or the line is not the same impedance as the SWR bridge is >>>calibrated to, and the differing impedances is by far the most probable >>>explanation if the line length is right. >>> >>>Cheers, >>>Tom >>> > > Article: 217389 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:39:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:34:27 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >Hi Hans, > >Godel actually taught us that any system of belief, by its own rules >of consistency must include the statement that > > 1 + 1 = 3 > >Technologists would find that quite difficult to live with, some of >the religious (if not in that same crew) would also find it difficult. >Then there are those who would simply accept it on faith. That's especially true when faith is blind... Article: 217390 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:42:51 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5ujsi196c3dl0l0a7su4uqltnt4u0ql4ko@4ax.com> <3f84j1t6o536tgnekhutv1ruepdo5d5ggs@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 03:16:14 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: >On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:22:10 -0400, Uncle Ted >wrote: > >>On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 05:41:38 GMT, kashe@sonic.net wrote: >> >>>>It's bad enough that people feel a need to believe in any deities at >>>>all, but when you have to listen to a bunch of old men in robes half a >>>>world away tell you how to live your life, you're pretty screwed up. >>> >>> Is this a slam against our Muslim brethren? A comment on the >>>position of Saudi Arabian women? >> >>Pope worshipers and Mohamahdists are all the same to me... > > That says more about you than about them. Such as? Article: 217391 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Matt" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:35:56 +0930 Message-ID: References: <4324E0BD.A033E1A@earthlink.net> <4o4ji1p26o2mcctbkfbuugpan1qmlt05nd@4ax.com> <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126821476.840433.194860@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <34sui1h78dnnf7upi6oasunk6c3quvikup@4ax.com> <6YWdnWb9yuNterLeRVn-tA@comcast.com> "Ham op" wrote in message news:GqSdnaHbf6qHlK3eRVn-qg@comcast.com... > Matt wrote: > > SNIPPED > > > This thread has degenerated into religious shit fighting. It has absolutely > > sweet fuck all to do with any of the NGs that it has been posted to- how > > about we either revert to the original topic, close this thread down, or > > move it to a religious discussion group where I feel that it would be far > > more appropriate. Please? > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > Your point is valid. Your language needs serious improvement! Fair call - guess it is an indicator of how ridiculous and off topic that this thread has become. Religion will always be a divisive issue but it really has no place in any of these NGs - can we please either end it or move it elsewhere to somewhere more appropriate? Matt From Wed Sep 28 23:39:10 EDT 2005 Article: 217392 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:43:59 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 27 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22692 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217392 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29398 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208553 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251024 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:39:33 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:34:27 -0700, Richard Clark >wrote: > > >>Hi Hans, >> >>Godel actually taught us that any system of belief, by its own rules >>of consistency must include the statement that >> >> 1 + 1 = 3 >> >>Technologists would find that quite difficult to live with, some of >>the religious (if not in that same crew) would also find it difficult. >>Then there are those who would simply accept it on faith. > >That's especially true when faith is blind... Everything is blind, including faith in science. Until we know everything there is to know, all of our knowledge is contained within a black box, outside of which we know nothing; like the Titanic just before the iceberg. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:11 EDT 2005 Article: 217393 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <31f74$43299abf$471c63c6$12083@ALLTEL.NET> <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.glorb.com!newspeer.tds.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22693 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217393 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29399 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208554 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251025 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:53:01 -0700, Zoran Brlecic <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: >Ham op wrote: > >>> I hardly consider myself a fanatic, and am extremely unlike to "hammer" >>> anyone over religion, or lack there of. >>> >>> Some of the most fanatical are those members of the religion of atheism. > >Yeah? When was the last time an atheist: Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many untimely deaths as these three? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217394 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:03:02 -0500 Message-ID: <1127401610_739@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> Matt Osborn wrote: > Everything is blind, including faith in science. Witness quantum physics. We must have faith that a Buckyball can go through two slits at the same time. :-) (Compared to other quantum particles, Buckyballs, made >from many, many carbon atoms, are rather huge.) -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217395 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: 73 Ohms, How do you get it? Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:31:41 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1126625499.680151.37850@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1126638695.918035.51910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1126655181_28167@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <5MOAq4S9pIKDFwB+@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> <1126734334_299@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330ac76$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <4330af86$0$22205$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Reg Edwards wrote: > The Zo of the Beverage is 60 * Ln( 4 * Height / d ) ohms, where d is > wire diameter. When terminated its input resistance at LF is Zo (see > the Bible, the ARRL Antenna Book). A typical value of Zo is 550 ohms. > > Note that radiation resistance does not enter the formula although it > cannot be denied radiation does occur. The formula is a close > approximation which serves present purposes. > > Putting two Beverages back-to-back to make a dipole we get an input > impedance of 1100 ohms. The infinite dipole is in the same high > impedance ballpark. > > To calculate Zo of an isolated infinite dipole we shall have to change > dimensions Height above ground disappears and is replaced by > wavelength (or frequency). > > Zo = 60 * ( Ln( Wavelength / 2 / d ) - 1 ) ohms, approximately. > > A more exact formula involves inverse hyperbolic functions and > wavelength, height, wire length, and wire diameter, but nobody ever > uses it. You won't find it in Terman. > > On the favourite American 40-meter band with a 14 AWG infinitely long > wire Zo = 505 ohms. > > Which makes the dipole input impedance = 1010 ohms but a nice, round > 1000 ohms is near enough for me. > > Your 'infinite shield' is a fair description for the return path but > the end-effect is fairly large. I prefer 'the rest of the Universe'. > But the nearest point is still the Earth's surface. > > I leave the people, who attempted to use Smith Charts and Eznec to > solve the interesting problem, to fathom out where they (or the charts > or Eznec) went wrong. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 217396 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400 begin 644 QCWA092205.txt M("`@("!!2!T;R!S;VUE(&EN=&5R97-T:6YG M('-I='5A=&EO;G,N($]U2!T:&4@2F%P M86YE2!B96EN M9R!T;VQD('1H92!T2X@2&]W979E6\L(&]N(#8U,"!+2'H@=V%S M(%,Y+"!B=70@=&AE6\@96YD+B!7 M92!D:7-C;W9E6EN9R!T:&4@<&]T(')EF5R M;RX@5&AE(')E2!T:&4@:6YP=70@;V8@;W5R(')E8V5I=F5R+"!W:&EL M92!T:&4@2!G;V]D+"!B96-A=7-E(%-T871E('=A2!D M87D@=&\@;6%K92!S=7)E('=E('-E;G0@=&AE;2!T:&4@ Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:51:11 -0400 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: Sorry, All, I haven't yet learned how to paste text into the text portion. Will try again. Walt Article: 217398 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:03:46 -0400 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: Can someone please tell me how to 'paste' a copy of text into the 'text' portion of a new message? Walt Article: 217399 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:36:02 -0500 Message-ID: <1127410790_915@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Walter Maxwell wrote: > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: > Can someone please tell me how to 'paste' a copy of text into the 'text' portion > of a new message? Hi Walt, Is the "copy of text" an ASCII text section or a graphic of some sort? For graphic text, some of us use OCR software as graphics (binaries) are not allowed on this newsgroup. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217400 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: <68r5j1duf01dbqoljc0g2srq0f6hgisqgu@4ax.com> References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:45:09 -0400 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:15:44 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:03:46 -0400, Walter Maxwell >wrote: > >>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: >>Can someone please tell me how to 'paste' a copy of text into the 'text' portion >>of a new message? >> >>Walt > >Hi Walt, > >Using the mouse, hi-light the text of interest and on the keyboard >press the two keys (at the same time) C. This copies the text >to the clipboard. Then, in your open, new post, place the mouse >cursor where you want the quote (click the mouse to put the cursor >there). Then on the keyboard press the two keys (at the same time) > V. This will transfer the contents of the clipboard into the >text area. > >73's >Richard Clark, KB7QHC Thanks, Richard, I knew how to get the text onto the clipboard, but I didn't know that ctrl V would 'paste' it into the text portion. There is no 'edit' or 'paste' button in the 'new text' screen. Walt Article: 217401 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: <2fr5j1pilq4q6qva970hq36ukisc3a6vvl@4ax.com> References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> <1127410790_915@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:50:26 -0400 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:36:02 -0500, Cecil Moore wrote: >Walter Maxwell wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: >> Can someone please tell me how to 'paste' a copy of text into the 'text' portion >> of a new message? > >Hi Walt, >Is the "copy of text" an ASCII text section or a graphic >of some sort? For graphic text, some of us use OCR software >as graphics (binaries) are not allowed on this newsgroup. Hi Cecil, My copy is ASCII, which appeared in the starting msg of this thread. I composed in Word, and my older Word programs allowed one to convert to plain text with CR at the end of each line. The 2003 ver doesn't allow that, and the lines run to 256 characters per line, which my first post on the thread did. But Richard C. just informed me how to paste when there is no 'paste' button available. I'm going to post my msg again, and we'll see whether its lines end correctly, or with 256 characters per line. Walt Article: 217402 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Message-ID: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:51:56 -0400 As a monitoring officer with the Radio Intelligence Division (RID) of the FCC in Hawaii during WW2 I was privy to some interesting situations. Our State Department was of course aware of the operations occurring in the Pacific Theater. The people there were also aware of the propaganda being spewed by the Japanese short-wave broadcasters. But State was curious concerning what the Japanese living on the homeland were being told-were they being told the truth, or the same propaganda as told on the short-wave broadcasts, or a totally different story. State asked the RID to determine whether we could obtain such information. We cruised the AM broadcast band and found several nighttime signals from Japanese mainland stations, but most were too weak to copy. However, JOAK, Tokyo, on 650 KHz was S9, but there was a problem in copying it. KFI, Los Angeles, was also on 650 KHz with an S9 signal-copying intelligence from JOAK was impossible. How can we eliminate, or reduce KFI's signal level. A Beverage Wave antenna, perhaps? We then proceeded to the northern portion of Oahu and constructed a Beverage one-half mile long, five feet above ground, aimed at Tokyo, and terminated with a 1000-ohm pot resistor to ground at the Tokyo end. We discovered that by varying the pot resistance we could null the KFI signal to almost zero. The resistance terminating the Beverage that produced the null was around 600 ohms. Because the matching resistive termination rendered the Beverage a traveling-wave antenna with no standing wave, the signal from JOAK was terminated by the input of our receiver, while the signal from KFI was dissipated in the matched resistance at the Tokyo end of the Beverage-no KFI signal reflected toward the receiver. Voila-JOAK was perfectly readable for recording! We sent the first recording to Washington, and State was delighted-requesting that we continue recording JOAK continuously. Consequently, our recordings were flown daily to Washington from Hickam Field in Honolulu. We were left in the dark concerning the information on the recordings, and how it affected the War effort, because State didn't share it with us. But it must have been pretty good, because State was on our case every day to make sure we sent them the recordings. Walt, W2DU From Wed Sep 28 23:39:13 EDT 2005 Article: 217403 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:54:41 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 38 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!199.218.7.141!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22695 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217403 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29403 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208556 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251030 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:52:42 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >>Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >>untimely deaths as these three? > >Hi Matt, > >Adolph Hitler had the support of the church and a religious society >(need we say it was NOT the Jewish religion?). If you need two more >names (a tedious exercise with an obvious outcome) simply enter the >phrase: > "kill them all and let god sort them out" >into a search engine and wade through the 20000 links that to little >exception imply any atheistic manifesto. I do believe that the OP was attempting to draw a distinction between those who know that they believe (religious) and those who don't know that they believe (atheists). In all cases, they believe and act according to their beliefs. That the atheists fall prey to their unrecognized beliefs cannot be disputed. If one were to draw any conclusion, it is that the religious act within the framework of their well recognized beliefs while atheists succumb fully to hubris as they lack any counter to their own whims. I do not deny that both are fallible, however, history demonstrates that the religious, despite their failures, have improved the human condition immeasurably where atheists have been only a blight upon civilization. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217404 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:13:20 -0500 Message-ID: <1127413028_943@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> Matt Osborn wrote: > If one were to draw any conclusion, it is that the religious act > within the framework of their well recognized beliefs while atheists > succumb fully to hubris as they lack any counter to their own whims. Don't know much about Ayn Rand's Objectivism, do you? -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217405 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:50:55 -0500 Message-ID: <1127415283_987@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> <1127410790_915@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <2fr5j1pilq4q6qva970hq36ukisc3a6vvl@4ax.com> Walter Maxwell wrote: > My copy is ASCII, which appeared in the starting msg of this thread. I composed > in Word, and my older Word programs allowed one to convert to plain text with CR > at the end of each line. The 2003 ver doesn't allow that, and the lines run to > 256 characters per line, which my first post on the thread did. But Richard C. > just informed me how to paste when there is no 'paste' button available. I'm > going to post my msg again, and we'll see whether its lines end correctly, or > with 256 characters per line. I have my browser set for screen wrap so I don't even notice 256 characters per line. :-) -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217406 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: Open Stub fed J antenna Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:44:42 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1126835197_2699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <24625-432A4483-301@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> "Jerry Martes" wrote in message news:b%NWe.1010$9a2.584@trnddc04... > > "Richard Harrison" wrote in message > news:24625-432A4483-301@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net... > > Cecil, W5DXP wrote: > > "The 180 deg. phase reversing coil is the tricky part." > > > > For UHF, you might prefer to use a 1/4-wave short-circuited stub in > > place of a coil to reverse the phase. My 19th edition of the ARRL > > Antenna Book shows such an antenna, "the super J-pole on page 16-25. At > > other frequencies, this might be called a "Franklin Antenna". It`s a > > 1/2-wave in-phase with another 1/2-wave, one mounted directly over the > > other.> > Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZZI > > Richard Two half waves in phase, colinear. The 1/4 wave shorted "stub" is perhaps the easiest way to get a 'good" 180 degree shift to get the segments in phase. Used from early antenna design times... 73, Steve, K9DCI Article: 217407 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve Nosko" Subject: Re: Open Stub fed J antenna Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:58:56 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1126835197_2699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <24625-432A4483-301@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> <11ioskhlhnsrl9b@corp.supernews.com> Roy, I'd appreciate your further comment on this. I 'know', from history, that the spacing of two collinear half waves in phase affects the gain and that there is an optimum spacing for gain that places the two collinear elements apart (not close enough for a 1/4 wave shorted stub to be used for a common feed). I had theorized that this "optimum" spacing results in the most compressed lobe (without excessive secondary lobe formation) which is simply due to the far-field phase summation of the two elements radiation. Is this different than the mutual coupling to which you refer, or is this another effect? 73, Steve, K;9.D,C'I "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:11ioskhlhnsrl9b@corp.supernews.com... > Jerry Martes wrote: > > > > I'd have expected the "gain" to be closer to 4 1/2 db over the 1/4 wave > > stub over a ground. is it easy to show where i've missed something? > > > > I think it should be more like 3 dB, but hadn't said anything until I > had a chance to model it. ... > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 217408 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:50:11 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:43:59 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >Everything is blind, including faith in science. Until we know >everything there is to know, all of our knowledge is contained within >a black box, outside of which we know nothing; like the Titanic just >before the iceberg. Science has nothing to do with faith because the essence of science is to continually ask questions, and explore new possibilities. IOW, science is readily open to change, and will admit it's mistakes if close examination of evidence reveals such things to be so. OTOH, faith is rigid, and is not subject to any change among those with "true believer syndrome." Faith, especially blind faith, expects one to believe without asking any questions, and just accepting things as they are presented. From Wed Sep 28 23:39:14 EDT 2005 Article: 217409 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:29:09 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 30 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22698 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217409 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29407 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208559 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251033 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:50:11 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:43:59 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > >> >>Everything is blind, including faith in science. Until we know >>everything there is to know, all of our knowledge is contained within >>a black box, outside of which we know nothing; like the Titanic just >>before the iceberg. > >Science has nothing to do with faith because the essence of science is >to continually ask questions, and explore new possibilities. IOW, >science is readily open to change, and will admit it's mistakes if >close examination of evidence reveals such things to be so. OTOH, >faith is rigid, and is not subject to any change among those with >"true believer syndrome." Faith, especially blind faith, expects one >to believe without asking any questions, and just accepting things as >they are presented. Faith has nothing to do with science? Does this mean you can explain gravity? May I suggest that without faith, there is no science. Most scientists who have achieved the age of 50 come to realize just how much faith science requires. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217410 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt Message-ID: References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:48:24 -0400 Thanks, ham op, for the info. However, 'Agent' has no 'edit' key, and no 'paste' option, hence the reason for my question. However, Richard C. kindly told me that using v does the pasting job. Walt On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:42:05 -0400, Ham op wrote: >If you are WINDOWS based: > >1) Highlight text in original message >2) Edit Key: select COPY option, Click mouse > This puts the desired text on your 'clipboard' >3) Open NEW MESSAGE >4) Put cursor in 'text' block [as opposed to Address or Subject] >5) Edit Key: select PASTE option, Click Mouse. > >If you are MAC based you need info from another source > > >Walter Maxwell wrote: > >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:48 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: >> Can someone please tell me how to 'paste' a copy of text into the 'text' portion >> of a new message? >> >> Walt >> Article: 217411 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Message-ID: <8q96j1hr5a0l9gl7skacog57ao9t0riau3@4ax.com> References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:55:19 -0400 Jon, I'm pleased that you found my story of interest. I have just put together another war story that I may post tomorrow. It concerns how the FCC saved thousands of military personnel and more than 600 aircraft from ditching in the sea between the mainland and Hawaii during WW2. And yes, Jon, I remember the beer can article. A cute one, to say the least. Walt On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:58:59 -0400, J. Teske wrote: >Most interesting story. I suspect that this may have been the >precursor to CIA's Foreign Broadcast Information Service >(FIBS...pronounced by those in the trade as Fibbis). CIA has these >overt monitoring posts to pick up broadcasts from a whole host of >stations. These are transcribed and translated into English and put in >a daily summary. They are unclassified and freely disseminated at >least within government. They are quite distinct from monitoring for >intelligence purposes and totally different personnel participate. The >FBIS folks are often foreign nationals hired as contract workers and >as such do not participate in intelligence analysis or see >intelligence product (except for CIA's cleared managers.) > >On a humorous note, early in my ham career about 50 years ago, there >was another kind of beverage antenna. CQ magazine published a story on >building a 40 meter vertical antenna by soldering end to end >sufficient numbers of beer cans to reach the required 32 feet. Beer >cans I guess were made of ferrous products back then (I was too young >to drink at the time.) Several letters to the editor pointed out that >the same thing could have been accomplished by 32 feet of aluminum >tubing which of course was true. I think the same article also had an >accompanying matching coil made out of semi-flexible copper tubing >which the author said he straightened out prior to coiling in the >appropriate size in what he described at "the time honored method." >What he did was secure one end of the tubing to a vise on a workbench >in his garage, secured the other end somehow (don't remember exactly >how he did this) to his automobile and then straightening the tubing >by slowly driving forward. > >Several follow-on stories appeared following publication, most dealing >with the process of acquireing the requisite number of beer cans. One >author did what today we would call a blog as he tried to acquire the >cans all at once by drinking the contents. As the story progressed, >his written words became more and more unintelligible. > >I am far too young to know about these WW II stories first hand (I was >born in 1942), but I did have a long career in Signals Intelligence >and I had heard some similar stories from my earliest supervisors, >most of whom were WW II veterans. > >Thanks for sharing this with us. > >Jon W3JT From Wed Sep 28 23:39:15 EDT 2005 Article: 217412 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 45 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22699 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217412 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29408 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208560 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251035 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:38:31 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:54:41 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >>If one were to draw any conclusion, it is that the religious act >>within the framework of their well recognized beliefs while atheists >>succumb fully to hubris as they lack any counter to their own whims. > >Hi Matt, > >As so well demonstrated in the historical record, ethics and religion >are not the same thing. To say atheists lack any counter (ethics) is >also shown in the historical record to be wrong. By some accounts, >Buddhism has no god, is quite ethical, but also quite atheistic. This >could also be applied to Jainism. Unitarians hardly demand the >existence of God, the imposition of beliefs is not in their code, >whereas their ethics are guided by rational thought rather than >external authority. By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider himself to be an atheist. Such a person may not agree with any known (to himself) religious dogma, nevertheless, he does at the very least, possess a religious dogma of his own making. Since, according to the OED, ethics is the science of morals; the study of the principles of human duty, there must exist some basis upon which human duty is based. We cannot at the same time, argue that we do not believe and yet insist that we have a basis for moral behavior. Such contradictions are the basis for insanity if they are consciously held. Most often, the atheist will insist on science or common sense as his moral foundation. That the world is a better place if he helps his neighbor, etc. Of course, this simply denies (usually unconsciously) his belief in the religious dogma of his milieu. Sociopaths may be the only true atheists; the rest are simply uninformed of their own dogma. Most of the latter have constructed a 'straw man' that they see as G-d. They then proceed to demolish their creation and then rest convinced of their independent thought. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217413 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Open Stub fed J antenna Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:28:20 -0700 Message-ID: <11j6c04j1570k74@corp.supernews.com> References: <1126835197_2699@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <24625-432A4483-301@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net> <11ioskhlhnsrl9b@corp.supernews.com> Steve Nosko wrote: > Roy, > I'd appreciate your further comment on this. I 'know', from history, > that the spacing of two collinear half waves in phase affects the gain and > that there is an optimum spacing for gain that places the two collinear > elements apart (not close enough for a 1/4 wave shorted stub to be used for > a common feed). I had theorized that this "optimum" spacing results in the > most compressed lobe (without excessive secondary lobe formation) which is > simply due to the far-field phase summation of the two elements radiation. > Is this different than the mutual coupling to which you refer, or is this > another effect? > > 73, Steve, K;9.D,C'I It's actually the same effect. If we assume no loss (a reasonable assumption for this kind of antenna), all the power applied to the antenna is radiated. So any change in gain is accompanied by a change in pattern -- if there's a single major lobe, the more gain you have the narrower the lobe is. But if the element currents are in phase, there will always be a maximum broadside to the array regardless of the spacing, because the fields from the elements will always add in phase in that direction. But why is the gain different for different element spacings? You get different gains for different spacings, which means that the sum of the fields changes as you change spacing -- and this means that the field >from each element changes as you change the spacing. If you put 100 watts into the array, each element will radiate 50 watts, again regardless of the spacing. So why does the 50 watts produce a larger or smaller field broadside to the array as you change the spacing? What's happening? As the spacing changes, the mutual coupling between elements changes. This alters the feedpoint resistances (and reactances, which aren't important to this discussion) of the elements. And this in turn modifies the amount of current flowing on each element for that 50 watts of applied power. (It can be more reasonably argued that the mutual coupling changes the current, and that changes the resistance. Or that the mutual coupling produces a feedpoint voltage which alters the current and resistance. But you reach the same conclusion via any of those paths.) The essential fact is that the field gets stronger or weaker as the element current increases or decreases as a result of mutual coupling. The combination of the changed pattern shape due to spacing and the changed maximum pattern size due to mutual coupling always result in all 100 watts being radiated. Chapter 8 of the ARRL Antenna Book has a graph of gain vs spacing for two half wave elements placed end-to-end, compared to a single half wave element. The gain peaks at about 3.2 dB at a spacing of about a half wavelength. When the elements are very close, as they are in the super J-pole, the gain is only about 1.6 dB greater than a dipole. That's why I felt the J-pole gain wouldn't be as high as claimed. Note: The current distribution on the elements also changes as a result of mutual coupling -- see http://eznec.com/Amateur/Articles/Current_Dist.pdf. But I don't believe the effect is very significant on a collinear array with thin elements. Anyone wanting to find out for sure, though, can do so with EZNEC or a similar program. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 217414 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: Beverage Antenna in WW2 - QCWA092205.txt References: <1sn5j1li0r81h27diiummfql3tuko1m5uu@4ax.com> <1127410790_915@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <2fr5j1pilq4q6qva970hq36ukisc3a6vvl@4ax.com> <1127415283_987@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:44:46 GMT Walt- once you have the item "Pasted", you can edit that "Pasted copy", simply by single clicking anywhere in the sentence(s), and then type a (space-bar, comma, period, or if editing the text, the letters, over the highlighted area. IT is possible to thusly, edit lines, correct sentences, contract the length of lines, ect. Hope this info helps-- Jim NN7K Cecil Moore wrote: > Walter Maxwell wrote: > >> My copy is ASCII, which appeared in the starting msg of this thread. I >> composed >> in Word, and my older Word programs allowed one to convert to plain >> text with CR >> at the end of each line. The 2003 ver doesn't allow that, and the >> lines run to >> 256 characters per line, which my first post on the thread did. But >> Richard C. >> just informed me how to paste when there is no 'paste' button >> available. I'm >> going to post my msg again, and we'll see whether its lines end >> correctly, or >> with 256 characters per line. > > > I have my browser set for screen wrap so I don't even > notice 256 characters per line. :-) Article: 217415 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allodoxaphobia Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Date: 22 Sep 2005 22:47:53 GMT Message-ID: References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:58:59 -0400, J Teske wrote: ....... > What he did was secure one end of the tubing to a vise on a workbench > in his garage, secured the other end somehow (don't remember exactly > how he did this) to his automobile and then straightening the tubing > by slowly driving forward. Probably by clamping it to the bumper! Back in those days we had 'real' bumpers -- Made In America _and_ made out of steel. As well, the dash 'board' was made out of steel. Back on topic: Great Story(s). 73 Jonesy -- Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux Pueblo, Colorado | @ | Jonesy | OS/2 __ 38.24N 104.55W | config.com | DM78rf | SK Article: 217416 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: David Subject: Re: How do you find antenna resonance References: <38WXe.751$0E5.493@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <1127240139.756430.52570@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1127322926.234874.85900@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1127370912.498824.180680@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1127419371.759512.259150@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:05:23 GMT Tom, Thanks for the link. This unit only goes to 60MHz so needs a lot of mod to get it up to 900MHz where I am working. I have found this one that does go up there http://www.geocities.com/robert_lacoste/previous_designs.htm Some of the parts used in his design are getting difficult to obtain so I am thinking of replacing the Cypress device and prescaler for a LMX1600 PLL and driving the generator ramp via a PIC micro controller instead. The VCOs, Splitters and Amp are all still available. Before I start on this project I will make a manually adjustable version (The directional couplers will not be redundant) The reason the detector head is a separate item is that this will be inside a small shielded area inside the main box that also has the micro controller, LCD display, keypad and serial port. Then I can simply swap the 900MHz coupler for the 433MHz coupler to change bands. I have completed the artwork for the Bi_Directional coupler and will make the PCB today. Using RFsim99 I was able to play with combination of track widths and gape between mainline and coupled lines to get the 20dB coupling and 50 Ohms. K7ITM wrote: > You should probably have a look at http://users.adelphia.net/~n2pk/. > Paul has done a nice job on a vector network analyzer project, with > some good additions from others, and you can probably pick up quite a > few nice ideas from that design, maybe even use a lot of it. > > The single parallel strip really does pick up both forward and > reflected, and if you can terminate it properly at both ends > (especially the forward end) so that the load there does not reflect > back down that line segment, you can sense both forward and reflected > on the single parallel strip. Making the load really be 50 ohms isn't > easy when it also has to be a detector, though, so two strips may make > more sense for you. It should work fine to have them just be > symmetrical, one on either side of the main line. > > If you really care about phase detection, be aware of the phase shifts > through line segments. Such couplers are sometimes called quadrature > hybrids. The sampled forward output will be in phase with the applied > input, but the through-line output will be delayed 90 degrees (a > quarter wave in the transmission line, obviously). The sampled > reflected output will be in-phase with the reflected that arrives at > the through-line load port--by symmetry. But that means you'd measure > a 90 degree phase difference between the forward and reflected, for a > case where they were in phase at the through-line output port. Hope I > have that all correct...if not someone will probably jump in and > correct it. It should be easy to calibrate out. Since the phase > shifts are frequency-dependent, if you want to cover much of a > percentage frequency range, be prepared to handle frequency-dependent > calibration. The coupler goes out of quadrature, and you probably > won't have exactly the same length lines from each coupler to the > detector. > > Since the parts are really pretty cheap and replicating PC boards is > straightforward, you might think about the advantages of NOT having to > disconnect things, and the expense of putting good RF connectors on the > coupler, and maybe just build the detector into the coupler, and make a > separate one for other uses. A couple good SMAs and the hassles of > connecting and disconnecting a few times should pay for just buying > another $20 part. Half a tank of gas these days, huh? > > Cheers, > Tom > From Wed Sep 28 23:39:16 EDT 2005 Article: 217417 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:56:39 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <9uf6j1li5rgavm24ga5ru0qnckk4kssc20@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!4.24.21.153!newsfeed3.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22700 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217417 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29409 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208561 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251037 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:45:46 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >>By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >>himself to be an atheist. >necessarily contradicts: >>Most often, the atheist will insist on science or common sense as his >>moral foundation. The contradiction lies with those who believe themselves atheists, not with those who point out the contradiction. >Hi Matt, > >This looks like a homogenous world point of view, where those who are >____, are not; and those who are not ____, are. A circularity that >fails in science, but certainly has served religion through the ages. Hi, Richard, It is a consistent world view, not an homogenous view. The question I raised was that of the basis of morality and human duty. If one has no belief system , no faith that his rule set is correct, then one cannot have an ethical approach to life. >Consider the enigma of: >>Sociopaths may be the only true atheists; >is a mechanistic approach to morality, which is amoral. >>the rest are simply uninformed of their own dogma. >And to distinguish them from the informed (and not simply those who >disagree): > "kill them all and let god sort them out." > >Hmmm, that's how we got here. Not really. I'm still waiting for an atheist to explain how it is that he can have a moral point of view and not have a religious dogma. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:16 EDT 2005 Article: 217418 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:58:10 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 44 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!oshean-news.uri.edu!128.230.129.112.MISMATCH!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22701 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217418 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29410 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208562 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251039 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:04:14 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:50:11 -0400, Uncle Ted >> wrote: >> >> >>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:43:59 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Everything is blind, including faith in science. Until we know >>>>everything there is to know, all of our knowledge is contained within >>>>a black box, outside of which we know nothing; like the Titanic just >>>>before the iceberg. >>> >>>Science has nothing to do with faith because the essence of science is >>>to continually ask questions, and explore new possibilities. IOW, >>>science is readily open to change, and will admit it's mistakes if >>>close examination of evidence reveals such things to be so. OTOH, >>>faith is rigid, and is not subject to any change among those with >>>"true believer syndrome." Faith, especially blind faith, expects one >>>to believe without asking any questions, and just accepting things as >>>they are presented. >> >> >> Faith has nothing to do with science? Does this mean you can explain >> gravity? > > Once upon a time, we didn't know the nature of light, or lots of other >things. And some people used your same argument. > > May I suggest that without faith, there is no science. Most >> scientists who have achieved the age of 50 come to realize just how >> much faith science requires. > > Matt, you are simply incorrect. You have faith that someday science will know. A faith based outlook on life if I've ever seen one. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217419 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:43:39 -0400 Message-ID: <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? > >Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >untimely deaths as these three? Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to 1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were more than three during that time period... From Wed Sep 28 23:39:17 EDT 2005 Article: 217420 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:02:19 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4bo6j1tlge94oprt3cb1i5rh217f5mfduq@4ax.com> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22703 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217420 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29412 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208564 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251041 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:01:10 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > >> If one were to draw any conclusion, it is that the religious act >> within the framework of their well recognized beliefs while atheists >> succumb fully to hubris as they lack any counter to their own whims. >> >> I do not deny that both are fallible, however, history demonstrates >> that the religious, despite their failures, have improved the human >> condition immeasurably where atheists have been only a blight upon >> civilization. > > Matt, I suspect you get your news (and history) from the 700 Club. > > - Mike KB3EIA - What's the 700 Club? Let's not talk about me, I'm rather simple and boring. I find the issue of humans understanding themselves to be fascinating. Please contribute what you can. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217421 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <1127442287_4677@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <9uf6j1li5rgavm24ga5ru0qnckk4kssc20@4ax.com> Matt Osborn wrote: > Not really. I'm still waiting for an atheist to explain how it is > that he can have a moral point of view and not have a religious dogma. You really need to study Ayn Rand's take on Objectivist ethics. The objective thing to do is to grant to everyone the rights that you require for yourself, no matter what you believe. It bears a close resemblence to the golden rule. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217422 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:36:35 -0700 Message-ID: <11j6qhk668g86a1@corp.supernews.com> References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> I was born in '59, so I didn't know any of this. Very interesting. Thanks for posting it. Rod KI7CQ From Wed Sep 28 23:39:18 EDT 2005 Article: 217423 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:39:00 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!news2.wam.umd.edu!nntp.abs.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!newspeer1.nwr.nac.net!nntp.cifnet.net!sienna.impulse.net!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22705 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217423 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29414 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208566 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251044 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:43:39 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > >>Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? >> >>Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >>untimely deaths as these three? > >Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to >1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were >more than three during that time period... > A few thousand compared to 50 million? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217424 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:28:39 -0400 Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:29:09 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >Faith has nothing to do with science? Does this mean you can explain >gravity? Yes. When I sit down in my chair at my computer, I have a fair amount of certainty that my fat ass won't end up on the floor due to the chair suddenly breaking. Now, you can call that faith if you want, but it is certainly far from the BLIND faith that religionists spew on about every day across the shortwave bands. >May I suggest that without faith, there is no science. Most >scientists who have achieved the age of 50 come to realize just how >much faith science requires. ...which only shows that even an intelligent and well-read person can fall for stuff that passes as science if that have no critical thinking abilities. Article: 217425 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:34:01 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >himself to be an atheist. Such a person may not agree with any known >(to himself) religious dogma, nevertheless, he does at the very least, >possess a religious dogma of his own making. If not an atheist, what do *you* call a person that doesn't believe in some big sky fairy called "God", or that some Jew-on-a-stick died and came back to life some two thousand years ago, or any other deity for that matter? Article: 217426 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:37:02 -0400 Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <5MCdndjOZ8fdyq7eRVn-iA@adelphia.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:15:44 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: >> >> >> By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >> himself to be an atheist. > > Are you serious? You sound like the preacher who said that atheists >with morals are hypocrites. > > Those preachers don't believe anyone can be moral without bowing down to their so-called kind, loving "Christian" god that threatens people with eternal torture after they die if they don't kiss their god's ass. Article: 217427 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mike" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <9lg5j1t4drjh8gp3kiqv02s1o2n4s8mg4m@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:52:54 -0400 Message-ID: <4333704c@news.usenetzone.com> This is way off-topic. It has been asked to be moved to a more appropriate newsgroup. Please take it out of these groups or converse by e-mail. "Uncle Ted" wrote in message news:l7p6j1ptejb8r8iig6huqf5blkmeu25bis@4ax.com... > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:29:09 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > >>Faith has nothing to do with science? Does this mean you can explain >>gravity? > > Yes. When I sit down in my chair at my computer, I have a fair amount > of certainty that my fat ass won't end up on the floor due to the > chair suddenly breaking. Now, you can call that faith if you want, but > it is certainly far from the BLIND faith that religionists spew on > about every day across the shortwave bands. > >>May I suggest that without faith, there is no science. Most >>scientists who have achieved the age of 50 come to realize just how >>much faith science requires. > > ...which only shows that even an intelligent and well-read person can > fall for stuff that passes as science if that have no critical > thinking abilities. _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account Article: 217428 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:53:29 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> Message-ID: <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Matt Osborn wrote: > > > A few thousand compared to 50 million? > Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? tom K0TAR Article: 217429 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:59:36 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > Matt Osborn wrote: > >> >> >> A few thousand compared to 50 million? >> > > Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? > > tom > K0TAR > The difference between me and you is that I know it's always wrong, and you seem to have left an opening for your "religion" to do evil things becuase your morality says it's ok. I'm sorry that you can't understand that an atheist can have morals not tied to superstition, but to to true right and wrong. tom K0TAR Article: 217430 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Message-ID: <0es6j19ipv54bav4p7ln49v8ej79893crc@4ax.com> References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> <11j6qhk668g86a1@corp.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:10:17 -0400 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:36:35 -0700, "Rod Maupin" wrote: >I was born in '59, so I didn't know any of this. Very interesting. Thanks >for posting it. > >Rod KI7CQ > Glad you guys find my posting of interest, and since you do, I'll have a coupla more coming. Walt, W2DU Article: 217431 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:10:24 GMT wrote > > By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider > himself to be an atheist. > "Everyone has to believe in something." I guess I'll believe in Bokonon. In Cat's Cradle, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., created a new religion, Bokononism. The holy scripture of Bokononism was "Books of Bokonon", written by a spurious holy man named Bokonon as a way to distract the people of San Lorenzo from their pitiful lives. What is sacred to Bokononists? Not god; just one thing: man. Here, to set the tone, are the opening verses of Book One of Bokonon Verse 1: All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies. Verses 2-4: In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in His cosmic loneliness. And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he asked politely. "Everything must have a purpose?" asked God. "Certainly," said man. "Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God. And He went away Article: 217432 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Message-ID: <40t6j1hra9lhttbdp38hrd7u0r0hcbmplr@4ax.com> References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> <11j6qhk668g86a1@corp.supernews.com> <0es6j19ipv54bav4p7ln49v8ej79893crc@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:21:24 GMT On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:10:17 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:36:35 -0700, "Rod Maupin" wrote: > >>I was born in '59, so I didn't know any of this. Very interesting. Thanks >>for posting it. >> >>Rod KI7CQ >> >Glad you guys find my posting of interest, and since you do, I'll have a coupla >more coming. > >Walt, W2DU I have no experience with Beverage antennas, but 4000 miles for what had to be a not very powerful Japanese station at 650 khz sounds pretty good. Bob k5qwg Article: 217433 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:14:29 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:39:00 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:43:39 -0400, Uncle Ted >wrote: > >>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >> >> >>>Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? >>> >>>Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >>>untimely deaths as these three? >> >>Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to >>1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were >>more than three during that time period... >> > >A few thousand compared to 50 million? Hardly, but I don't think we'll ever know how many millions have been slaughtered by the RCC during the time period I mentioned. Article: 217434 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:36:22 -0500 Message-ID: <11j6u1tnov2fpf8@news.supernews.com> References: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> Ted these guys don't know...... If they aren't on some sin ridden guilt trip they are "free from sin" by papal absolution...you know..the same way those pedophile priests were all "forgiven" for butt-fucking little children. Ain't it great?? -- Charlie "Uncle Ted" wrote in message news:c5q6j151m4gl4ia7feqjhoudnlc9qotrn4@4ax.com... > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > >>By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >>himself to be an atheist. Such a person may not agree with any known >>(to himself) religious dogma, nevertheless, he does at the very least, >>possess a religious dogma of his own making. > > > If not an atheist, what do *you* call a person that doesn't believe in > some big sky fairy called "God", or that some Jew-on-a-stick died and > came back to life some two thousand years ago, or any other deity for > that matter? Article: 217435 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Pat Stevens" References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 04:01:14 GMT Boy, Charlie, I bet you didn't expect your posting of a newsworthy item to turn into a philosophical debate of religion and atheism, did you? To get things back on topic, I hope that the amateur radio operators are getting ready for Rita. It looks like it will be another bad one, too. "Charlie" wrote in message news:11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com... > 1. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228945/ > > -- > > Charlie - AD5TH > www.ad5th.com > > > > > > > Article: 217436 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Cencom" References: Subject: Wooden I section pole Message-ID: <9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 05:45:41 GMT John, The general rule-of-thumb for a utility pole installation in sort-of normal soil is 10 percent of the pole's length, plus 2 feet in the ground. For example, a 40 foot pole would be placed in an augered hole 6 feet deep, leaving 34 feet above ground. The hole should be back-filled and tamped to provide support for the pole. No concrete is needed. 73, Larry - W1GOR "John N9JG" wrote in message news:dgc7u7$9h8$1@mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu... >I am in the planning stage for a 160 meters compact loop antenna. A loop >antenna may not have metal nearby, so I am planning to use a wooden pole to >support the top of the loop. In the ARRL Antenna handbook, it states that >"W5QJR made a pole of 2 x 4-inch lumber with 1 x 4-inch boards on either >side to form an I section. He held the boards together with 1/4-inch bolts, >2 feet apart and tied rope guys to the top. This made an excellent mast up >to 50 feet high." > > Does anyone have any comments on the feasibility of an unguyed pole using > this same type of construction? Naturally, a portion of the pole would > have to be underground, and perhaps set in concrete. What about a 50 feet > pole, with 10 feet underground ,which would give you a 40 foot mast? > > An alternative would be to have a contractor install a 40 feet utility > pole, but I assume the wooden pole described above would be less of an > eyesore (to the neighbors) than a utility pole. > > Any comments and advice will be appreciated. > John, N9JG > Article: 217437 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:44:35 -0500 Message-ID: <1127476030_6553@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> KØHB wrote: > And He went away Later He sent Lucifer back to earth to see what was going on. Lucifer wrote "Letters From Earth" back to God - one of my favorite books. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217438 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:48:42 -0500 Message-ID: <1127476277_6555@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <11j6u1tnov2fpf8@news.supernews.com> Charlie wrote: > If they aren't on some sin ridden guilt trip they are "free from sin" by > papal absolution...you know..the same way those pedophile priests were all > "forgiven" for butt-fucking little children. Ain't it great?? Atheists cannot afford to sin - there's no one to forgive them. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217439 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:52:38 -0500 Message-ID: <1127476514_6559@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <11htogetcauugb1@news.supernews.com> Pat Stevens wrote: > To get things back on topic, I hope that the amateur radio operators are > getting ready for Rita. It looks like it will be another bad one, too. From what a ham told me yesterday while sitting on I-45N, he may still be sitting there out of gas when Rita hits. He had moved half a mile in the last hour. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- Article: 217440 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Wooden I section pole Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:52:15 -0500 Message-ID: References: <9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com> Thanks for your comments. My current thinking on this matter is to purchase a 35 or 40 feet hinge base fiberglass flagpole. Going this route costs a few bucks, but the flagpole only weighs about 75 pounds and can be moved in the event that I change QTHs. http://www.excelsails.com/flagpole.htm "Cencom" wrote in message news:9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com... > John, > > The general rule-of-thumb for a utility pole installation in sort-of > normal soil is 10 percent of the pole's length, plus 2 feet in the ground. > For example, a 40 foot pole would be placed in an augered hole 6 feet > deep, leaving 34 feet above ground. The hole should be back-filled and > tamped to provide support for the pole. No concrete is needed. > > 73, Larry - W1GOR Article: 217441 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Wooden I section pole Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:44:21 -0500 Message-ID: <11j81mdq280jhcb@corp.supernews.com> References: <9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com> John N9JG wrote: > Thanks for your comments. My current thinking on this matter is to purchase > a 35 or 40 feet hinge base fiberglass flagpole. Going this route costs a few > bucks, but the flagpole only weighs about 75 pounds and can be moved in the > event that I change QTHs. http://www.excelsails.com/flagpole.htm > > > "Cencom" wrote in message > news:9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com... > >>John, >> >>The general rule-of-thumb for a utility pole installation in sort-of >>normal soil is 10 percent of the pole's length, plus 2 feet in the ground. >>For example, a 40 foot pole would be placed in an augered hole 6 feet >>deep, leaving 34 feet above ground. The hole should be back-filled and >>tamped to provide support for the pole. No concrete is needed. >> >>73, Larry - W1GOR > > > Make sure that the pole can support the wind load of your proposed antenna's. Remember fiberglass is strong but brittle and will snap is overloaded. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 217442 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <1127476030_6553@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:46:33 GMT "Cecil Moore" wrote > Later He sent Lucifer back to earth to see what was going on. > Lucifer wrote "Letters From Earth" back to God - one of my > favorite books. Much better than Huck Finn! Are you hunkered down waiting for the rain? Beep beep de Hans, K0HB Article: 217443 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Second try with Beverage Antenna in WW2 Message-ID: References: <7or5j1dkir93jfr67nh57gft0r99eul5g3@4ax.com> <11j6qhk668g86a1@corp.supernews.com> <0es6j19ipv54bav4p7ln49v8ej79893crc@4ax.com> <40t6j1hra9lhttbdp38hrd7u0r0hcbmplr@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:34:05 -0400 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:21:24 GMT, Bob Miller wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:10:17 -0400, Walter Maxwell >wrote: > >>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:36:35 -0700, "Rod Maupin" wrote: >> >>>I was born in '59, so I didn't know any of this. Very interesting. Thanks >>>for posting it. >>> >>>Rod KI7CQ >>> >>Glad you guys find my posting of interest, and since you do, I'll have a coupla >>more coming. >> >>Walt, W2DU > >I have no experience with Beverage antennas, but 4000 miles for what >had to be a not very powerful Japanese station at 650 khz sounds >pretty good. > >Bob >k5qwg > Bob, the Beverage wasn't used for its ability to receive weak signals, but for it's capability of rejecting the unwanted signals, KFI in LA in this case. Terminating the long wire of a Beverage makes it a traveling-wave antenna, in contrast to the usual standing-wave antenna. Consequently, with the termination at the end opposite to the direction of the unwanted signal, the unwanted signal travels to terminating end and is dissipated there. Because the resistive termination is equal to the Zo of the antenna the unwanted signal is dissipated with no reflection. Therefore the receiver doesn't see the unwanted signal. Walt From Wed Sep 28 23:39:22 EDT 2005 Article: 217444 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:50:09 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <5MCdndjOZ8fdyq7eRVn-iA@adelphia.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news.germany.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22721 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217444 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29429 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208583 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251068 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:37:02 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:15:44 -0400, Mike Coslo > wrote: > > >>> >>> >>> By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >>> himself to be an atheist. >> >> Are you serious? You sound like the preacher who said that atheists >>with morals are hypocrites. >> >> > >Those preachers don't believe anyone can be moral without bowing down >to their so-called kind, loving "Christian" god that threatens people >with eternal torture after they die if they don't kiss their god's >ass. Anyone who has a basis for ethical and moral behavior must bow to the authority of that basis. Some call that authority G-d, atheists refuse to identify that authority, or simply identify it as science or knowledge. We are not so fortunate that we can believe in the possibility of moral or ethical behavior without also presenting a basis for that behavior. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:23 EDT 2005 Article: 217445 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:54:20 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <6h58j1lo8e4aglep0jfklkidk8glq36bs4@4ax.com> References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <9uf6j1li5rgavm24ga5ru0qnckk4kssc20@4ax.com> <67t6j19lltlhrl1ur122grd9ksf7sbru4e@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 49 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22722 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217445 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29430 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208584 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251069 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:32:30 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:56:39 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:45:46 -0700, Richard Clark >>wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >>> >>>>By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >>>>himself to be an atheist. >>>necessarily contradicts: >>>>Most often, the atheist will insist on science or common sense as his >>>>moral foundation. >> >>The contradiction lies with those who believe themselves atheists, not >>with those who point out the contradiction. > >Hi Matt, > >Well, in fact the contradiction originated with your statements. No >one else theist/atheist posited them. As to what is "believed" by >anyone, that is a speculation when it is expressed by a third party, >you about "them" (whomever they may be). No Richard, it didn't originate from me. I merely presented the views of others in a new light. >>I'm still waiting for an atheist to explain how it is >>that he can have a moral point of view and not have a religious dogma. > >Unfortunately, you've presented yourself as being the arbiter of who >is an atheist, and denying that classification of them by your own >test. This is self-fulfilling prophesy. > So you think everyone else should be the arbiter? Or perhaps that anybody else should be the arbiter? Once again though, we digress from the argument. Does an atheist believe in anything outside himself? I submit that he most certainly does. You have admitted as much when you introduced ethics which requires a basis. Feel free to present an argument that rebuts any of those points. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:23 EDT 2005 Article: 217446 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:02:33 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22723 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217446 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29431 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208585 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251070 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:34:01 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:15:16 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > >>By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >>himself to be an atheist. Such a person may not agree with any known >>(to himself) religious dogma, nevertheless, he does at the very least, >>possess a religious dogma of his own making. > > >If not an atheist, what do *you* call a person that doesn't believe in >some big sky fairy called "God", or that some Jew-on-a-stick died and >came back to life some two thousand years ago, or any other deity for >that matter? I believe such a person isn't a Christian, or Jewish or a member of any other well known religion. I myself do not adopt the literal trappings of any known religion. Nevertheless, I do recognize the existence of an authority greater than my own upon which I have formed my system of beliefs. I can find no substantial difference between my faith and that of those who may identify themselves with any other religious organization. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:23 EDT 2005 Article: 217447 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:15:58 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22724 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217447 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29432 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208586 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251071 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:10:24 GMT, "KØHB" wrote: > > wrote > >> >> By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >> himself to be an atheist. >> > >"Everyone has to believe in something." > >I guess I'll believe in Bokonon. > >In Cat's Cradle, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., created a new religion, Bokononism. The >holy scripture of Bokononism was "Books of Bokonon", written by a spurious holy >man named Bokonon as a way to distract the people of San Lorenzo from their >pitiful lives. > >What is sacred to Bokononists? Not god; just one thing: man. > >Here, to set the tone, are the opening verses of Book One of Bokonon > >Verse 1: All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies. > >Verses 2-4: In the beginning, God created the earth, and he looked upon it in >His cosmic loneliness. > >And God said, "Let Us make living creatures out of mud, so the mud can see what >We have done." And God created every living creature that now moveth, and one >was man. Mud as man alone could speak. God leaned close as mud as man sat up, >looked around, and spoke. Man blinked. "What is the purpose of all this?" he >asked politely. > >"Everything must have a purpose?" asked God. > >"Certainly," said man. > >"Then I leave it to you to think of one for all this," said God. > >And He went away > If G-d must be all things then he is as constrained as we are. How would He express himself if not through his creations? Most artists have remarked upon the discoveries they have made via their creations. I can see no reason why G-d would be any different. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217448 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: Fiberglass pole Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:18:00 -0500 Message-ID: References: <9EMYe.89486$EX.17784@twister.nyroc.rr.com> <11j81mdq280jhcb@corp.supernews.com> Thanks, Dave, for mentioning this. In my case the pole will be supporting an octagon shaped loop made out of 100 feet of 3/4" copper pipe. The top of the loop will be several feet below the pole top, and if necessary I will guy the top of the pole. "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:11j81mdq280jhcb@corp.supernews.com... > John N9JG wrote: >> Thanks for your comments. My current thinking on this matter is to >> purchase a 35 or 40 feet hinge base fiberglass flagpole. Going this route >> costs a few bucks, but the flagpole only weighs about 75 pounds and can >> be moved in the event that I change QTHs. >> http://www.excelsails.com/flagpole.htm >> >> > Make sure that the pole can support the wind load of your proposed > antenna's. Remember fiberglass is strong but brittle and will snap is > overloaded. > > Dave WD9BDZ Article: 217449 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: The Correct Polarization Saves Lives During WW2 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:21:38 -0400 During WW2, Prose Walker, W4BW, (then W2CXA) in 1942 became Chief of the Radio Security Center (RSC) of FCC's RID, located in the Dillingham Building, Honolulu. (Long after WW2 Walker was Chief of the Amateur Division of the FCC, succeeded by John Johnston, W3BE, President of QCWA.) In his position as Chief RSC Walker learned that many military aircraft and its personnel were being lost at sea while traveling from the U.S. Mainland to Hawaii. There were two reasons for their being lost, 1) 'navigationally impaired' pilots (bureaucratese for 'lost'), and 2) totally drained fuel tanks. There was naturally a limit to the size of the fuel tanks, but what caused the pilots to become navigationally impaired? That point preyed on Walker's mind, and on investigating he discovered a deplorable situation that needed fixing. Here's what he found. At the Boeing aircraft plant in Seattle they were building bombers as fast as possible. Dozens of green flight teams just out of flight school were awaiting their new aircraft, and anxious to get aboard and proceed to the South Pacific area as soon as possible. The navigators and radio operators were taught how to use the loop direction finders that were standard equipment on the aircraft. But they were never told that loop DF's were incapable of obtaining reliable directional information from signals propagated by sky waves. The DF's aboard the aircraft were capable of delivering reliable data only when the electromagnetic energy in the received signals is vertically polarized, but the navigators and radio ops didn't know that. Unfortunately for them, on reflection and refraction through the ionosphere, a linearly-polarized wave is converted into an elliptically-polarized wave, resulting in a continual shift in the null obtained by the loop DF as the polarization angle of the incoming signal rotates elliptically during propagation. Consequently, once the aircraft has left the mainland, and can no longer receive the vertically polarized waves from AM broadcast stations, the only reception remaining is from sky waves propagated far beyond the range of the ground waves of the AM stations. Therefore, bearings taken from the loop DF's aboard the aircraft when at sea beyond the ground wave signal were useless. The only remaining means for the navigator to determine the position of the aircraft was through celestial navigation, using readings from the sun or stars. The situation gets pretty bad on cloudy days, and that's when the pilots became navigationally impaired. At this point Walker came up with a solution that ended the era of lost aircraft flying between the mainland and Hawaii. Fortunately, every FCC monitoring station in the U.S., Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico had Adcock direction finders as standard equipment. Adcocks, as you probably already know, are susceptible only to the vertical component of the arriving wave, regardless of its angle of polarization. Therefore, instead of constantly wandering, as with the loop DF, the null obtained appears at constant angle on the Adcock scale, even though the angle of polarization of the arriving wave is continually rotating elliptically. In other words, Adcocks give accurate directional information obtained from sky waves. Walker's reasoning was that triangulation >from bearing measurements obtained by the FCC Adcocks taken on signals transmitted from the lost aircraft could determine its precise location, and thus determine a course to fly directly toward Hickam Field in Honolulu. The problem then was how to organize the communications to achieve the necessary procedure. Walker organized it in this manner: The CAA (then the Civil Aeronautics Administration) had a terminal in Honolulu with facilities for communicating with all aircraft. A direct teletype connection was setup between the CAA and the RSC, which had a kilowatt transmitter used to communicate with the secondary monitoring stations on all the Islands, each of which had Hallicrafters HT-9 transmitters. When the pilot of the aircraft determined they were lost, the radio operator signals the CAA, who instantly puts the aircraft's frequency on the teletype and rang its bell, alerting the RSC operator of the situation. The RSC operator then sends the following message to all secondary stations that continuously monitor the RSC frequency: "LOS LOS LOS 4250 4250 4250," where LOS meant lost aircraft and 4250 was the frequency being transmitted by the aircraft. The operators of the Adcock DF stations immediately tune to the 4250 KHz frequency, hears the aircraft, and begins taking continuous bearings. The aircraft is sending long dashes, MO MO MO, to enable the DF operators to be certain they're hearing the right signal, and obtain a satisfactory bearing angle on a moderately constant signal. As each bearing is taken by all stations, the bearing angles are transmitted to RSC, where a great circle map of the entire Hawaiian area is hanging on the wall. A compass rose is printed on the map at the location of every monitoring station in the Islands, with a hole in the center of the rose through which a weighted string is hung. A pin is attached to the opposite end of the string to secure the string at the desired point on the map, with the string stretched over the angle on the compass rose indicating the angle of the bearing obtained by that particular station. As the strings representing each station reporting are secured they intersect at the point indicating the location of the lost aircraft, the intersection point called a 'cocked hat'. It was usual for the aircraft's position to be determined within ten minutes after the pilot alerted the CAA of its being lost. After the aircraft's position is located it is then given a course to fly toward Hickam Field, and the bearing measurements are reported continually until the pilot can see the Field. During this time the aircraft's location is followed all the way in to the Field, thus verifying the accuracy of the bearing measurements and the pilot's success in following the directions. Once Walker's plan was in operation no more aircraft were lost while flying between the mainland and the Hawaiian Islands. In 1943 alone, 273 aircraft were saved by the FCC Adcocks, and more than 600 were saved during the duration of the War. Unfortunately, planes were continuing to be lost on the run between Hawaii and the South Pacific, so Walker was invited by the Military to investigate. What he found was almost unbelievable. The Army Air Corps was using Mercator Projection maps for those runs, unaware that using maps of that projection produced directional errors of humongous and fatal proportions. On Walker's advice, once they acquired new maps with great circle projection, the number of lost planes dropped to zero. This is just one of the stories of how the FCC assisted in the ending of WW2. I was privilged to have been one of the bearing takers. Walt, W2DU Article: 217450 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John N9JG" Subject: Re: The Correct Polarization Saves Lives During WW2 Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:27:41 -0500 Message-ID: References: A most interesting and fascinating posting. "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:s078j11fada7cgj0jplj17qfqq83qgk15l@4ax.com... > During WW2, Prose Walker, W4BW, (then W2CXA) in 1942 became Chief of > the > Radio Security Center (RSC) of FCC's RID, located in the Dillingham > Building, [cut] Article: 217451 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: The Correct Polarization Saves Lives During WW2 Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:29:04 -0400 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:27:41 -0500, "John N9JG" wrote: >A most interesting and fascinating posting. >"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message >news:s078j11fada7cgj0jplj17qfqq83qgk15l@4ax.com... >> During WW2, Prose Walker, W4BW, (then W2CXA) in 1942 became Chief of >> the >> Radio Security Center (RSC) of FCC's RID, located in the Dillingham >> Building, >[cut] > A correction re Prose Walker's call signs. He was originally W 2BMX , and later W0C XA. Walt. W2DU From Wed Sep 28 23:39:24 EDT 2005 Article: 217452 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:30:51 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 54 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22725 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217452 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29433 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208587 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251072 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:28:58 -0700, Zoran Brlecic <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > > >> In all cases, they believe and act according to their beliefs. That >> the atheists fall prey to their unrecognized beliefs cannot be >> disputed. > >And this is because you say so? Please counter the argument. If atheists do not have faith in their beliefs, then upon what basis would they judge their choices? >> I do not deny that both are fallible, however, history demonstrates >> that the religious, despite their failures, have improved the human >> condition immeasurably where atheists have been only a blight upon >> civilization. > > >??? You have got to be kidding? What has religion possibly done for >anyone except provided false hope while stealing their money? Law itself is derived directly from religious thought. If there were no belief system, there could be no law. Dictatorships have no law, that's what makes them so awful. >Stifling science (from Galileo to stem cells), witch burning, condoning >slavery, religious genocide on unprecedented scale, eradicating whole >civilizations, oppressing women, condoning fascism and >national-socialism, suppressing human rights for minorities, huge waste >of resources that could be better spent elsewhere, contributing to >millions of dead from AIDS by banning contraceptives, flaming national >and religious intolerance from Ireland to Palestine, and I could go on >forever... > >As for your "blight" comment, a majority of scientists are atheists, for >example. The percentage increases with education. That's education *not* >Kansas style. > Do not attribute to religion the faults of mankind. Religion is a much broader concept than that represented by any known religion. While you're assessment of some religions at a particular point in time are on the mark, you overlook that same religion at an earlier or later point in time when it was substantially different. Like all things implemented by man, some succeed in their stated purpose and others fail. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217453 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:31:32 -0500 Message-ID: <1127489647_10041@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <1127476030_6553@spool6-east.superfeed.net> KØHB wrote: > Are you hunkered down waiting for the rain? For awhile, I thought Rita was going to come up I-45 but latest estimates has it sweeping through East of me which is good news. However, if two high pressure areas merge, Rita will stall out over East Texas and dump tens of inches of rain on me and my kinfolks. (The HWN frequency is 14.325 MHz at 2200 UTC.) My ISP will probably go down tomorrow morning. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- From Wed Sep 28 23:39:24 EDT 2005 Article: 217454 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:31:39 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22727 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217454 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29435 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208589 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251074 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:53:29 -0500, Tom Ring wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > >> >> >> A few thousand compared to 50 million? >> > >Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? > I would hope we could draw some distinctions. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:25 EDT 2005 Article: 217455 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:41:28 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 41 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22728 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217455 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29436 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208590 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251075 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:59:36 -0500, Tom Ring wrote: >Tom Ring wrote: > >> Matt Osborn wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> A few thousand compared to 50 million? >>> >> >> Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? >> >> tom >> K0TAR >> > >The difference between me and you is that I know it's always wrong, and >you seem to have left an opening for your "religion" to do evil things >becuase your morality says it's ok. > >I'm sorry that you can't understand that an atheist can have morals not >tied to superstition, but to to true right and wrong. We weren't discussing my morality. I have merely tried to present the arguments clearly. Morals require a foundation, a platform upon which rational decisions can be made. Since mankind, through science or any other means cannot know everything, some things must be assumed. To base our choices upon assumptions requires faith that our assumptions are at least plausible. If we have faith, then we are not atheists, we are religious, we believe. If you can present a cogent argument for ethics and morality that requires absolutely no assumptions, then you could make a case for atheism. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:25 EDT 2005 Article: 217456 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:44:05 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-11!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22729 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217456 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29437 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208591 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251076 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:14:29 -0400, Uncle Ted wrote: >On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:39:00 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:43:39 -0400, Uncle Ted >>wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? >>>> >>>>Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >>>>untimely deaths as these three? >>> >>>Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to >>>1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were >>>more than three during that time period... >>> >> >>A few thousand compared to 50 million? > >Hardly, but I don't think we'll ever know how many millions have been >slaughtered by the RCC during the time period I mentioned. The best studies I have seen attribute less than a thousand. What is often grouped into the RCC counts are those who served themselves under the cloak of the RCC. I'm not a serious student of the RCC, however, and would take this opportunity to point that fact. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217457 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:47:32 -0400 Message-ID: Could you give us some specifics to support your broad assertions? "Uncle Ted" wrote in message news:52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com... > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > > > >Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? > > > >Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many > >untimely deaths as these three? > > Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to > 1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were > more than three during that time period... > > Article: 217458 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:01:08 -0500 Message-ID: <1127491424_10065@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Matt Osborn wrote: > If you can present a cogent argument for ethics and morality that > requires absolutely no assumptions, then you could make a case for > atheism. Please see Ayn Rand's, "Introduction to Objectivism". Everything is based on reality. Absolutely no belief in the supernatural required. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217459 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:08:56 -0400 Message-ID: <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> You say that like it's a bad thing... How can you deny the fact that God has sent two hurricanes to wipe out the Sodom of the South? New Orleans was filled with perversion, pimps, homosexuals, Jezebels, and all manner of sins. "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:Bd-dnfOQuoLh667eRVn-jg@comcast.com... > ??? You have got to be kidding? What has religion possibly done for > anyone except provided false hope while stealing their money? > > Stifling science (from Galileo to stem cells), witch burning, condoning > slavery, religious genocide on unprecedented scale, eradicating whole > civilizations, oppressing women, condoning fascism and > national-socialism, suppressing human rights for minorities, huge waste > of resources that could be better spent elsewhere, contributing to > millions of dead from AIDS by banning contraceptives, flaming national > and religious intolerance from Ireland to Palestine, and I could go on > forever... > > As for your "blight" comment, a majority of scientists are atheists, for > example. The percentage increases with education. That's education *not* > Kansas style. > > 73 ... WA7AA Article: 217460 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:11:07 GMT wrote > > If we have faith, then we are not atheists, we are religious, we > believe. > If we have faith in a god, we are theists, and therefore religious. If we are not believers in a god, we are by definition atheists and therefore not religious, all your Alice-in-Wonderland style wordsmithing notwithstanding. Everyone has to believe something. I believe I'll have another martini. Article: 217461 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1127491424_10065@spool6-east.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:18:04 -0400 Message-ID: <92f97$43342ae1$97d56a13$25816@ALLTEL.NET> Things I have learned from watching the news about Hurricane Katrina on TV: 1. The hurricane only hit black family's property. 2. New Orleans was devastated and no other city was affected by the hurricane. 3. Mississippi is reported to have a tree blown down. 4. New Orleans has no white people. 5. The hurricane blew a limb off a tree in the yard of an Alabama resident. 6. When you are hungry after a hurricane destroys your property, steal a big screen TV. 7. The hurricane did 23 billion dollars in improvements to New Orleans: now the city is welfare, looters and gang free and they are in your city. 8. White folks don't make good news stories. 9. Don't give thanks to the thousands that came to help rescue you, instead bitch because the government hasn't given you a debit card yet. 10. Only black family members got separated in the hurricane rescue efforts. 11. Ignore warnings to evacuate and the Government will come get you and give you money for being stupid. 12. Oh, and it is all George Bush's fault, not the mayor's or Governor's. Article: 217462 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:36:31 GMT "Fred W4JLE" wrote > > How can you deny the fact that God has sent two hurricanes to wipe out the > Sodom of the South? > Is that the same god who murdered-by-fire all those old folks on that evacuation bus on I-45 this morning? If so, he's one mean perverted summabitch if you ask me! 73, de Hans, K0HB Article: 217463 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:50:12 -0500 Message-ID: <11j8cii7qh19l05@news.supernews.com> References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> "He that makes kittens...puts snakes in the grass" -- Charlie "KØHB" wrote in message news:jaWYe.2400$oc.776@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > "Fred W4JLE" wrote > >> >> How can you deny the fact that God has sent two hurricanes to wipe out >> the >> Sodom of the South? >> > > Is that the same god who murdered-by-fire all those old folks on that > evacuation bus on I-45 this morning? If so, he's one mean perverted > summabitch if you ask me! > > 73, de Hans, K0HB > > > > > > Article: 217464 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: The Correct Polarization Saves Lives During WW2 Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:16:59 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8e481lk8sccd@corp.supernews.com> References: That story is very interesting. I am a software developer, but a project I work on in my spare time deals with mapping. I can understand what you said about using the wrong maps. As far as radio, I can tell I have a lot to learn. Thanks. Rod KI7CQ Article: 217465 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:38:17 -0400 Message-ID: Nah, just living up to the self full filling prophecy of the other member of this conference, who is fond of painting with extremely broad brushes. Demonstrating absurdity by being absurd. "KØHB" wrote in message news:jaWYe.2400$oc.776@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net... > > "Fred W4JLE" wrote > > > > > How can you deny the fact that God has sent two hurricanes to wipe out the > > Sodom of the South? > > > > Is that the same god who murdered-by-fire all those old folks on that evacuation > bus on I-45 this morning? If so, he's one mean perverted summabitch if you ask > me! > > 73, de Hans, K0HB > > > > > > Article: 217466 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Vito" References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:51:36 -0400 Message-ID: <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> wrote > By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider > himself to be an atheist. That is simply not true. An athiest is, by dictionary definition, one who denies the existence of any god(s). He or she may very well have a sophisticated (or simple) system of morals and beliefs that exclude gods. Article: 217467 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Vito" References: <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:57:36 -0400 Message-ID: <43344214$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> "Uncle Ted" wrote > If not an atheist, what do *you* call a person that doesn't believe in > some big sky fairy called "God", or that some Jew-on-a-stick died and > came back to life some two thousand years ago, or any other deity for > that matter? "Agnostic". Look it up. An athiest denies the existence of any god; an agnostic says it is impossible to know. Article: 217468 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Vito" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:11:26 -0400 Message-ID: <43344552$0$9219@dingus.crosslink.net> wrote > If we have faith, then we are not atheists, we are religious, we > believe. Your vocabulary needs work. "Atheist" does not mean lack of faith. An athiest HAS faith ... faith that there is no god. One can have faith in his/her ideals, friends, a million things, and still be an athiest. Article: 217469 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Vito" References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:20:56 -0400 Message-ID: <4334478c$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> "Uncle Ted" wrote > On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:47:45 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: > >Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? > > > >Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many > >untimely deaths as these three? > > Just about every Roman Catholic pope that served from about 300 to > 1600 C.E. I don't know their names, but I'm pretty sure there were > more than three during that time period... > Not to mention Hitler. IIRC his record was right up there with Lenin and Stalin. Mao an athiest?? I believe he was a Taoist. Article: 217470 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Vito" References: <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:35:54 -0400 Message-ID: <43344b0e$0$9219@dingus.crosslink.net> wrote > Zoran Brlecic<...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: > >Matt Osborn wrote: > > > > > >> In all cases, they believe and act according to their beliefs. That > >> the atheists fall prey to their unrecognized beliefs cannot be > >> disputed. > > > >And this is because you say so? > > Please counter the argument. If atheists do not have faith in their > beliefs, then upon what basis would they judge their choices? Jeeze, do y'all speak English or own dictionaries? Athiests DO have faith in their beliefs, one of which is that there is no god. > > Law itself is derived directly from religious thought. If there were > no belief system, there could be no law. Dictatorships have no law, > that's what makes them so awful. That is so absolutely wrong that it is hard to explain. Dictatorships *do* have law. Check out Hitler's Germany, Franco's Spain or, more recently Saddam's Iraq - all with stringent legal codes and none athiestic. OTOH, there are legal systems, Marxist Russia for example, that had plenty of laws but denied the existence of any god making them athiestic. Article: 217471 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:38:03 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> I posted this on the wrong newsgroup a few days ago and no one has answered, so I'll try here. I have a Butternut Vertical (as a secondary antenna) and a regular radial system set up with it. I also have a metal roof on my house (here in the country in Western Washington). I have been wondering if I can use the metal roof as the radial system/ground plane for this antenna. Haven't tried it yet. Would this work or would it detune the antenna? What do you guys think? Rod KI7CQ From Wed Sep 28 23:39:29 EDT 2005 Article: 217472 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:39:01 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 42 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!usenet.osg.ufl.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!216.168.1.162.MISMATCH!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22743 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217472 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29451 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208606 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251090 On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:13:50 -0700, Zoran Brlecic <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > >>>>>I hardly consider myself a fanatic, and am extremely unlike to "hammer" >>>>>anyone over religion, or lack there of. >>>>> >>>>>Some of the most fanatical are those members of the religion of atheism. >>> >>>Yeah? When was the last time an atheist: >> >> >> Ever hear of Stalin? Lenin? Mao? >> >> Can you name three other people who have been responsible for as many >> untimely deaths as these three? > > >This tired old argument??? > >First of all I notice that you haven't addressed any of the specific >examples I gave about *theists* and their religious crimes. >Second, all of the examples I gave are about theists committing crimes >against humanity precisely *because* of their religion, directly and >indirectly. >As far as "Stalin, Lenin and Mao" are concerned, their crimes were most >certainly not committed in order to promote atheism, unless that atheism >was a vehicle for establishing communism, which btw, is de facto a form >of religion. Religion was not outlawed in the USSR and priests were >being prosecuted no more than the rest of the society. Communism and >theism can co-exist and did successfully in most communist countries. >Besides, Stalin spent years in a seminary. Some atheist. >One could just as successfully argue that since "Stalin, Lenin and Mao" >committed crimes and they all ate bread, then by your logic people who >eat bread are murderers. Tired old argument that it may be, those atheists committed more mayhem between them then the world had seen before or since. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217473 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> I don't know, but I would like to know. I am a software developer and am interested in fractals. Rod KI7CQ Article: 217474 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:24:42 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Of what use, if the theorem exists, is a fractal antenna anyway? It cannot perform any better than any other antenna of similar overall dimensions and in some respects, given the opportunity, it will do worse. Just like the discredited E-H antenna it is wishful thinking. Article: 217475 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:33:19 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: > Tom Ring wrote: > >> Matt Osborn wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> A few thousand compared to 50 million? >>> >> >> Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? >> >> tom >> K0TAR >> > > The difference between me and you is that I know it's always wrong, and > you seem to have left an opening for your "religion" to do evil things > becuase your morality says it's ok. > > I'm sorry that you can't understand that an atheist can have morals not > tied to superstition, but to to true right and wrong. First Crusade: 12,000 Jews killed in the Rhine valley. 6000 killed in Jerusalem when they torched the synagogue there 30,000 Muslims killed at the al Aqsa mosque. at least 200,000 killed over the length of the crusades. Then let us not forget the Iquisitions, witch-hunts and other jollies that went on. And there is plenty more to go around on all sides. Appears We're a long way from "a few thousand". But as the recent poster Mike has noted, this is pretty off topic, so I'll refrain from any more posting in this thread. - Mike KB3EIA - Article: 217476 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:36:58 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8manfqqb1v2b@corp.supernews.com> References: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> I think you are right, Richard. I'll just do it and see what happens. The thing is the roof is a painted metal, so I'm curious if there is continuity between the sections. Thanks Richard. By the way, I live in Rainier, down by Olympia. Rod Article: 217477 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:40:47 -0400 Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> KØHB wrote: > wrote > > >>If we have faith, then we are not atheists, we are religious, we >>believe. >> > > > If we have faith in a god, we are theists, and therefore religious. > > If we are not believers in a god, we are by definition atheists and therefore > not religious, all your Alice-in-Wonderland style wordsmithing notwithstanding. > > Everyone has to believe something. I believe I'll have another martini. I believe next time you should invite me! - Mike KB3EIA - Article: 217478 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:42:53 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> "Rod Maupin" wrote in message news:11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com... > I don't know, but I would like to know. I am a software developer and am > interested in fractals. > ===================================== So you like to amuse yourself by producing useless pretty patterns on the screen. ;o) Article: 217479 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:58:03 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8ni9ti8oj57f@corp.supernews.com> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> Yes, I have at times amused myself by looking at fractal patterns. Not in a few years though. What was interesting is that I had never heard of a fractal antenna before. Article: 217480 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: tclay@qmc.ph.msstate.edu Subject: Re: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Date: 23 Sep 2005 14:58:00 -0500 Message-ID: <87psqz5zg7.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> References: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> >I have a Butternut Vertical (as a secondary antenna) and a regular radial >system set up with it. I also have a metal roof on my house (here in the >country in Western Washington). I have been wondering if I can use the >metal roof as the radial system/ground plane for this antenna. Haven't >tried it yet. Would this work or would it detune the antenna? I did that once with a HF6V and a metal roof about 40' above ground. It seemed to work fairly well. The tuning on the Butternut is fairly touchy on several bands, so yes, you will probably need to retune it between roof mounting or ground mounting (I did). Tor N4OGW Article: 217481 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:09:21 -0500 Message-ID: <11j8o8g4gceuj4b@corp.supernews.com> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> Reg Edwards wrote: > "Rod Maupin" wrote in message > news:11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com... > >>I don't know, but I would like to know. I am a software developer > > and am > >>interested in fractals. >> > > ===================================== > > So you like to amuse yourself by producing useless pretty patterns on > the screen. ;o) > > While many would agree with you, fractals have been used in graphics to produce images that rival artists. For instince the images used to display Spock's Planet in the Star Treck movie were created using fractals. I beleive that the images of one of the Mars video's that NASA uses to show the surface of Mars is created using fractals to generate the 3-D images. Dave N Article: 217482 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rod Maupin" Subject: Re: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:10:20 -0700 Message-ID: <11j8ob2r2sekq63@corp.supernews.com> References: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> <87psqz5zg7.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> Thanks Tor. I have the same antenna, an HF6V. You're right. It is touchy on some of the bands. Rod Article: 217483 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:11:18 -0500 Message-ID: <11j8oc43ce6506d@corp.supernews.com> References: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> <11j8manfqqb1v2b@corp.supernews.com> Rod Maupin wrote: > I think you are right, Richard. I'll just do it and see what happens. The > thing is the roof is a painted metal, so I'm curious if there is continuity > between the sections. > > Thanks Richard. By the way, I live in Rainier, down by Olympia. > > Rod > > Rod; Assume not and you will not make an Ass of you and me. Bond the individual segments and let us know how it works. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 217484 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:43:21 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> There are no such things as "good" and "evil" or "right" and "wrong". Except as opinions which depend on the point of view from which an individual may perceive events. Points of view are randomly distributed and depend solely on one's self-interests and one's location in space relative to the crowd. Self interest is the keyword. But distant events (as most of them are) in time and space are rapidly attenuated in their effects on one's opinion. Which results in most people's opinions being neutral about most things, neither good nor bad. Which is just the same as saying most people just don't think about things unless things are in their immediately vicinity. People are naturally mentally bone idle. As with all lifeforms, this conserves energy which is always in short supply. ---- Reg. Article: 217485 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas From: Cecil Moore Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:57:21 -0500 Message-ID: <1127509196_10381@spool6-east.superfeed.net> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> <11j8o8g4gceuj4b@corp.supernews.com> David G. Nagel wrote: > Reg Edwards wrote: > While many would agree with you, fractals have been used in graphics to > produce images that rival artists. For instince the images used to > display Spock's Planet in the Star Treck movie were created using > fractals. I beleive that the images of one of the Mars video's that NASA > uses to show the surface of Mars is created using fractals to generate > the 3-D images. Recently on TV, the possible conditions on newly conceived planets in other solar systems were clearly fractal. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 217486 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:08:12 -0400 Message-ID: <2b986$43346ee3$97d56a13$2350@ALLTEL.NET> It was left to the marketing department. I would urge you not to speak in doubting words about fractal antennas. Should you fail to heed these words you will be added to the long list of sue-ees... It is my opinion that the Cohen circle jerk will continue to share a group of devotees with the E/H and CFA inventors. Junk science is applied to areas other than global warming... There is nothing magic about a fractal, and other forms have proved equal or superior to it as an antenna. "Harry" wrote in message news:1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > I is said that Cohen and Robert Hohlfeld has proved > mathematically that for an antenna to work equally > well at all frequencies, it must satisfy two criteria: > > 1. It must be symmetrical about a point. > > 2. And it must be self-similar, having the same basic appearance at > every > scal. > > That is, the antenna has to be "fractal." > > Does anyone know how this "theorem" was proved? > > -- Harry > Article: 217487 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:30:58 -0500 Message-ID: <11j8t1id2h0o8ca@corp.supernews.com> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1127506558.380412.225540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <8cp8j1dp70o6jr1sg9en94fiu57k6uga44@4ax.com> Richard Clark wrote: > On 23 Sep 2005 13:15:58 -0700, "Harry" wrote: > > >>FYI, quote fron Fractal Antenna FAQ webpage at: >>http://www.fractenna.com/faq/faq.html >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>Q: I understand that fractals have been used to solve an old problem > >>from Maxwell's Equations. What is that? > >>A: In 1999, Fractal's Nathan Cohen published an article solving a >>basic problem: What are the requirements to make antennas frequency >>invariant? A later article by Robert Hohlfeld and Nathan Cohen then >>analytically showed that you need origin and self symmetry (self >>similarity) for this to occur in Maxwell's Equations. The implications >>are profound for antenna design, as a previous but less universal >>explanation by Victor Rumsey, made nearly 50 years ago, was shown to >>not be the total picture. The necessary and sufficient conditions for >>frequency invariance have been dubbed 'HCR Conditions', after the three >>contributors to solving this age old problem. > > > Hi Harry, > > There is a lengthy experience with such proclamations made here, by > those authors. The long and short of it is there is more crafting in > the language than there is in the theory being explained. > > For one, who is credited with asking the "question?" Follow that lead > and you will find a sort of Mutt 'n' Jeff dialogue of mutual > convenience. > > Simply by examining this language reveals that it is > self-congratulatory. For example, this alone: > >>A: In 1999, Fractal's Nathan Cohen > > Who, or what is Fractal to associate the possessive Fractal's? > or > >>solving a basic problem > > you may notice that this "problem" is never even discussed within the > context of your snippet, and throughout the entire page its meaning > shifts to suit the pitch. > > Presumably it is > >>What are the requirements to make antennas frequency invariant? > > but through the crafting of language, that is not explicitly the > problem, nor is the paper the solution. The paper is "about" > >>What are the requirements to make antennas frequency invariant? > The thought occurs to me that depending on the number of iterations you take the fractal equation to the longer the length of the fractal. If you work the length enough you will get both resonance and impedance match out of a fractal antenna. Maybe that's how they work. Dave N > which is a field that had been already tilled 50 years ago, and it > wrought the Log Periodic forms described by Isbell, and the helices of > Kraus. No, it takes an invented term, a forced definition, and claim > grab to accomplish this "new" invention. > > Problem is (and this is the nut of the case), no one in this "field" > of fractals can point to an algorithm or calculation and say that this > term describes the feedpoint impedance and that term relates to the > radiation performance. Two qualities that any antenna savant would be > interested in, but wholly missing from these "theories." > > As I've offered hundreds of fractal examples (and I'm not too > surprised to see zero expressed desire to see them), and in comparison > to these merchandisers of rhetoric, they hardly rise to the level of > what would be called antenna research. Their repertoire is painfully > limited, certainly not unique, and has been shopworn for years. As a > topic in this forum, you are among the rare questioners that drift in > and then out. The topic is not self-sustaining beyond the morbid > interest in the side show of freaks of nature. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 217488 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Message-ID: References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:44:54 GMT On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:42:53 +0000 (UTC), "Reg Edwards" wrote: >So you like to amuse yourself by producing useless pretty patterns on >the screen. ;o) Reg, there are more practical applications. It is a long time since I worked in the field, but fractals provided a good method (economical on data, realistic visually) of surface texture rendering in computer modelling of solid objects (eg roads, brickwork, stucco, etc). Owen -- From Wed Sep 28 23:39:32 EDT 2005 Article: 217489 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:04:01 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <4ju8j195d36hofc7oefk50kg1p8iqiu8c9@4ax.com> References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <9uf6j1li5rgavm24ga5ru0qnckk4kssc20@4ax.com> <67t6j19lltlhrl1ur122grd9ksf7sbru4e@4ax.com> <6h58j1lo8e4aglep0jfklkidk8glq36bs4@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 53 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22748 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217489 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29456 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208611 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251097 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:50:56 -0700, Richard Clark wrote: >On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:54:20 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >>No Richard, it didn't originate from me. >Again, in contradiction with: >>I merely presented the views >with an affirmation of it being speculation: >>of others in a new light. >This is commonly known as putting your words in other's mouths. Again, >self-fulfilling prophecy. > >>So you think everyone else should be the arbiter? Or perhaps that >>anybody else should be the arbiter? > >Hi Matt, > >A very strange question. You offer it in terms of a projection. The >question: >>So you think everyone else should be the arbiter? >Is phrased not about a neutral subject, who should be arbiter, but >rather is couched as do I think.... > >The neutral context would have simply asked: Who should be arbiter? > >What I think is expressed by me, not you. You might ask questions, >but phrasing them in speculative terms and projecting them into my >mind is a prejudicial bias. > >>Once again though, we digress from the argument. Does an atheist >>believe in anything outside himself? I submit that he most certainly >>does. You have admitted as much when you introduced ethics which >>requires a basis. > >See what I mean? You have injected your own belief by asserting I >made an admission. An admission is a loaded statement in a Christian >cultural context relating to guilt. You could have as easily pointed >out I raised the subject, which is a neutral observation. As such, >this bias is inserting itself as a judgment of the moral validity and >application of otherwise bland statements. > >>Feel free to present an argument that rebuts any of those points. > >Once you free yourself of contextual prejudices. No Richard, you have apparently run out of cogent thoughts and have now resorted to attacking me personally instead of addressing the issue. On what basis may an atheist be ethical or moral? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:33 EDT 2005 Article: 217490 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:13:58 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed2.easynews.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22750 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217490 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29457 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208612 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251098 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:51:36 -0400, "Vito" wrote: > wrote >> By definition, anyone who has a system of beliefs cannot consider >> himself to be an atheist. > >That is simply not true. An athiest is, by dictionary definition, one who >denies the existence of any god(s). He or she may very well have a >sophisticated (or simple) system of morals and beliefs that exclude gods. > To rely upon faith requires an explicit acknowledgment of an unknown power greater than oneself. Whether that power is called G-d or not is irrelevant. Ethics and morals require a foundation from which one derives guidance. If we knew everything (no assumptions), then we would not require faith in that foundation, we would simply know it. However, we cannot know everything, therefore we must have faith in our most fundamental beliefs. We cannot have faith in the unknown and deny the existence of G-d; the latter is merely terminology. If your point is that atheists know that there is a G-d but deny it, I could accept that argument. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217491 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "KØHB" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:17:42 GMT wrote > To rely upon faith requires an explicit acknowledgment of an unknown > power greater than oneself. No it doesn't. It simply requires an explicit acknowledgement of "we haven't learned the reason yet". No need for superstitions. 73, de Hans, K0HB From Wed Sep 28 23:39:33 EDT 2005 Article: 217492 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:18:10 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <3nv8j114vnvs3fhblmilch9is8ftgeauf3@4ax.com> References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> <372dnVgODZLCwaneRVn-gg@gbronline.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 22 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-10!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22752 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217492 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29459 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208614 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251100 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:53:41 -0700, Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: >Fred W4JLE wrote: >> You say that like it's a bad thing... >> >> How can you deny the fact that God has sent two hurricanes to wipe out the >> Sodom of the South? >> >> New Orleans was filled with perversion, pimps, homosexuals, Jezebels, and >> all manner of sins. > >Along with a lot of good people as well, same with the Texas coast. So >if God has all this power, why does he have to destroy a city and good >people just to get rid of a few bad ones? Why doesn't he just strike the >bad ones dead? Why use a hurricane? You ask that as if you think G-d may have had a choice. Do you think He does? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:33 EDT 2005 Article: 217493 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:25:50 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43344552$0$9219@dingus.crosslink.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 17 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns14feed!worldnet.att.net!199.218.7.141!news.glorb.com!sn-xit-04!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22753 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217493 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29460 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208615 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251101 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:11:26 -0400, "Vito" wrote: > wrote >> If we have faith, then we are not atheists, we are religious, we >> believe. > >Your vocabulary needs work. "Atheist" does not mean lack of faith. An >athiest HAS faith ... faith that there is no god. One can have faith in >his/her ideals, friends, a million things, and still be an athiest. > My point is that one who has faith believes in the unknown. There is no difference between those who believe in the unknown and those who believe in G-d. Both have faith in the unknowable. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:39:34 EDT 2005 Article: 217494 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:33:00 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 57 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!novia!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22754 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217494 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29461 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208616 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251102 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:33:19 -0400, Michael Coslo wrote: > > >Tom Ring wrote: >> Tom Ring wrote: >> >>> Matt Osborn wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A few thousand compared to 50 million? >>>> >>> >>> Well that certainly makes it ok. You mean you aren't an absolutist? >>> >>> tom >>> K0TAR >>> >> >> The difference between me and you is that I know it's always wrong, and >> you seem to have left an opening for your "religion" to do evil things >> becuase your morality says it's ok. >> >> I'm sorry that you can't understand that an atheist can have morals not >> tied to superstition, but to to true right and wrong. > >First Crusade: > > 12,000 Jews killed in the Rhine valley. > 6000 killed in Jerusalem when they torched the synagogue there > 30,000 Muslims killed at the al Aqsa mosque. > at least 200,000 killed over the length of the crusades. > > Then let us not forget the Iquisitions, witch-hunts and other jollies >that went on. > > And there is plenty more to go around on all sides. Appears > > We're a long way from "a few thousand". > > But as the recent poster Mike has noted, this is pretty off topic, so >I'll refrain from any more posting in this thread. > Were along way from 50 million or more as well. The above, of course, with the possible exception of the Rhine Valley incident, were done in war. The crusades include the synagogue in Jerusalem and the Muslims killed in the Mosque. Numbers so nice we count them twice? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217495 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:57:16 -0500 Message-ID: <11j923cs6msko4c@corp.supernews.com> References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <1127506558.380412.225540@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <8cp8j1dp70o6jr1sg9en94fiu57k6uga44@4ax.com> <11j8t1id2h0o8ca@corp.supernews.com> Richard Clark wrote: > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:30:58 -0500, "David G. Nagel" > wrote: > > >>The thought occurs to me that depending on the number of iterations you >>take the fractal equation to the longer the length of the fractal. If >>you work the length enough you will get both resonance and impedance >>match out of a fractal antenna. Maybe that's how they work. > > > Hi David, > > Common experience teaches us that a bent clothes hanger replacement > for an automotive antenna works too, but this reveals nothing of why > beyond the commonplace explanations available for the last 100 years. > > I covers length and iterations count and ... Which is more work and > more results offered by the entire field of fractals. To what end? > That this topic, due to its monstrous complexity could only survive in > the millimeter scales now used - and then only as a marketing lever. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Richard; I just like this topic because it brings out something in everyone. What I don't know, I just like it. HI HI... Dave WD9BDZ Article: 217496 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:48:05 -0400 Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <5MCdndjOZ8fdyq7eRVn-iA@adelphia.com> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:50:09 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >Anyone who has a basis for ethical and moral behavior must bow to the >authority of that basis. Some call that authority G-d, atheists >refuse to identify that authority, or simply identify it as science or >knowledge. > >We are not so fortunate that we can believe in the possibility of >moral or ethical behavior without also presenting a basis for that >behavior. If that's the case, then I am my own authority since they are my ethics and morals. Article: 217497 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:52:25 -0400 Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:02:33 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >I believe such a person isn't a Christian, or Jewish or a member of >any other well known religion. > >I myself do not adopt the literal trappings of any known religion. >Nevertheless, I do recognize the existence of an authority greater >than my own upon which I have formed my system of beliefs. I can find >no substantial difference between my faith and that of those who may >identify themselves with any other religious organization. If that works for you, fine. There are, however, some who would make it mandatory for everyone to attend church every Sunday. Article: 217498 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:56:41 -0400 Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <43344214$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:57:36 -0400, "Vito" wrote: >"Uncle Ted" wrote >> If not an atheist, what do *you* call a person that doesn't believe in >> some big sky fairy called "God", or that some Jew-on-a-stick died and >> came back to life some two thousand years ago, or any other deity for >> that matter? > >"Agnostic". Look it up. An athiest denies the existence of any god; an >agnostic says it is impossible to know. "Agnostic" is a cop-out word for someone that doesn't want to admit that they're an atheist. It just sounds nicer. If you say that it's impossible to know if there is a god or not, you obviously don't acknowledge the existence of any god. That makes you an atheist. From Wed Sep 28 23:39:35 EDT 2005 Article: 217499 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:44:29 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!4.24.21.153!newsfeed3.dallas1.level3.net!news.level3.com!newsfeed1.easynews.com!easynews.com!easynews!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-08!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22758 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217499 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29465 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208620 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251106 On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:17:42 GMT, "KØHB" wrote: > > wrote > >> To rely upon faith requires an explicit acknowledgment of an unknown >> power greater than oneself. > >No it doesn't. It simply requires an explicit acknowledgement of "we haven't >learned the reason yet". No need for superstitions. There is never a need for superstitions. Recognizing the unknown is good enough for me. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217501 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:11:18 -0400 Message-ID: <4769j1p0sjk46fbbkbgqkmdcv1m2rhehel@4ax.com> References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:44:29 -0500, Matt Osborn <> wrote: >On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:17:42 GMT, "KØHB" >wrote: > >> >> wrote >> >>> To rely upon faith requires an explicit acknowledgment of an unknown >>> power greater than oneself. >> >>No it doesn't. It simply requires an explicit acknowledgement of "we haven't >>learned the reason yet". No need for superstitions. > >There is never a need for superstitions. Recognizing the unknown is >good enough for me. Wise men stare at the unknown and boldly search for answers and ask "WHY?". Others fall on their hands and knees and start babbling, "God did it! God did it!" - Thus spake god's creator. Article: 217502 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Gene Rodgers" References: <11j8isc2vp1so0f@corp.supernews.com> <87psqz5zg7.fsf@qmc.ph.msstate.edu> <11j8ob2r2sekq63@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Metal Roof and Vertical Antenna Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 02:26:19 GMT Try an antenna tuner to balance it out. gene "Rod Maupin" wrote in message news:11j8ob2r2sekq63@corp.supernews.com... > Thanks Tor. I have the same antenna, an HF6V. You're right. It is > touchy on some of the bands. > > Rod > > Article: 217503 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "kd5sak" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <9uf6j1li5rgavm24ga5ru0qnckk4kssc20@4ax.com> <1127442287_4677@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127526581.429701.175500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 02:39:39 GMT wrote in message news:1127526581.429701.175500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Suppose someone believes in God - but also believes that one of God's > most basic commandments to human beings is that they *use* their > brains, logic and experiences to know His creation and their purpose in > it, and that they must continually question anyone who tells them they > must accept anything without proof. > > What do you call such a person? > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > When I refer to him I usually call him either I or Me. I've also found he's not always as bright as he sometimes believes himself to be. Harold Burton Article: 217504 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 04:31:56 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> "> >So you like to amuse yourself by producing useless pretty patterns on > >the screen. ;o) > > Reg, there are more practical applications. ================================ Owen, yes, I know. But radio antennas is not one of them. Do you know of one which performs any better than any other sort of antenna? Just calling it a fractal doesn't make it marvellous although, for CB-ers, it may increase the sales volume. Remember the E-H antenna which abused the works of James Clerk Maxwell? Fractals fall into the same category. They serve only to increase the complexity of modelling programs! ---- Reg. Article: 217505 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: The Cavity Magnetron. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 06:21:07 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Copied from the UK Amateur Radio Newsgroup. =================================== "Joe McElvenney" wrote > Randall and Boot's cavity magnetron > didn't really come onto the scene until about 1940. > =================================== R & B's cavity magnetron was developed at Birmingham University in the midst of the air raids on that industrial city. We can imagine R & B having to hide under the workbench whenever a descending bomb was heard, culminating in a loud bang and broken glass. The ingenious device generated a peak pulse power of 50 kilowatts at 3000 MHz. Pulse repetition frequency 400 Hz. Pulse width 1 microsecond. So far as I can remember there were 6 or 8 cavities milled into the copper block. Alternate anodes surrounding the cathode, and close to it, were strapped together at their ends via copper bars. The block diameter was about 2" and about 1" thick. The magnet was a U-shape with pole-pieces which closely fitted the flat ends round the block such that the magnetic field was parallel to the cathode. Because the luftwaffer in 1940/1 had more bombers than the RAF, and in view of its potential as a war weapon, Churchill personally banned installation in RAF aircraft in case the top-secret device should be shot down over Germany and fall into the hands of German scientists and engineers. So Churchill handed the cavity magnetron to Roosevelt as a free gift in return for 50 rusty, old, WW1 destroyers. The manufacturing capacity of the US radio industry far exceeded that of the UK. Not to be outdone, the Americans soon produced a 10,000 MHz version. I first held one in my hands in 1945 by which time centimetric radar had been installed in RAF Catalina and Sunderland flying boats on convoy-escort duties in the Battle of the Atlantic. By 1945 German submarine crews were on suicide missions like kamikazi pilots, only 1 U-boat in 10 returned to base. There are more than 100,000 merchant ship and U-boat crew-members sharing Davy Jones locker at the silent bottom of the North Atlantic Ocean. Thus was the ferocity of the war. Once having detected a centimetric radar beam, and being accurately located themselves, submarine commanders preferred to remain on the surface, uncover the guns, and fight it out, day or night. During most of the war there had been little effect on German industrial production by RAF raids. Many bombs fell on open fields and sometimes killed cattle. But by 1944 RAF navigatigators had maps of rivers and cities laid before them. More than a 1000 heavy bombers, Lancasters, could be put into the air, night after night. With radar they couldn't miss whole cities and individual districts. Nevertheless on one occasion more than 100 bombers, complete with crews, failed to return to base. Such occurrences greatly exceeded the capacity of factories to produce them and to train aircrews. During the last 12 months of the war, radar equipped RAF bombers killed more German civilians than died in the concentration camps. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which came shortly after, were just chicken feed. Air Marshal "Bomber" Harris was never knighted for services rendered. The main beneficiaries of R & B's invention of the cavity magnetron, done amid the high-explosives and incendiaries falling on Birmingam, have been the Japanese and other Far Eastern peoples who have manufactured many millions of cheap, reliable, microwave ovens. And of course the many millions of people like you and I who benefit >from daily hot meals. I detest barbiques. There was held in the Kensington, London, Science Museum, the original prototype of the cavity magnetron without its magnet. It was in a securely locked mahogany and glass case and looked, as I recollect, like a small dirty can of baked beans with things sticking out of it. It may still be there. Makes a change from so-called SWR meters. ---- Reg, G4FGQ. Article: 217506 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The Cavity Magnetron. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:04:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: > >Makes a change from so-called SWR meters. > > Ah Reggie! > > Hardly, SWR was the second most considered technical hurdle in the > development of RADAR. > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC ================================= Ah Rich!, Yet again you deliberately distort my meaning in your amusing game of 0ne-Upmanship. For the benefit of lurkers, there's a great difference between meters which purport to measure SWR at HF, but do no such thing and tell lies, and probes inserted in waveguides at 3 GHz which tell the truth. ---- Reg. Article: 217507 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:44:19 GMT Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: > So why are you afraid to actually type the word God? What does the - do? Some religions forbid writing the name of God. I once asked a Jewish person that I worked with how to spell Yahweh. He refused to speak it or write it. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217508 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: lorentsonci@lycos.com Subject: highwind,rohn25,stayerect??? Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:44:26 -0500 Message-ID: What should a rohn 25 properly guyed, 50ft tower with two meter/440 ground plane antennas be able to 'handle high wind wise'?? Watching the news/weagther, I feel some will 'bite the dust'. Appreciate your input. cl. Article: 217509 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: highwind,rohn25,stayerect??? References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:13:48 GMT lorentsonci@lycos.com wrote: > What should a rohn 25 properly guyed, 50ft tower with two meter/440 > ground plane antennas be able to 'handle high wind wise'?? > Watching the news/weagther, I feel some will 'bite the dust'. > Appreciate your input. cl. A properly guyed (2 sets of 3) 50 ft. Rohn 25 in a minimum recommended configuration will support 10.5 sq. ft. of antenna at 70 mph or 5 sq. ft. at 110 mph according to my Rohn drawings. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217510 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:14:05 -0400 Message-ID: <52130$43355f54$97d56a13$16572@ALLTEL.NET> Your lack of education is showing. It is a Jewish thing, the name of God is never written in any form that can be erased. "Cmdr Buzz Corey" wrote in message news:26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com... > So why are you afraid to actually type the word God? What does the - do? Article: 217511 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <1126810780_1703@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <1127138720_12439@spool6-east.superfeed.net> <4330a9c8$0$22199$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <913a$433428be$97d56a13$25422@ALLTEL.NET> <372dnVgODZLCwaneRVn-gg@gbronline.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:20:22 GMT Cmdr Buzz Corey wrote: > Fred W4JLE wrote: >> New Orleans was filled with perversion, pimps, homosexuals, Jezebels, >> and all manner of sins. > > Along with a lot of good people as well, same with the Texas coast. Naaaahhhhh, God loves Republicans and George Bush so He only hit Texas with the milder Western side of Rita. Those Louisiana Democrat sinners got the nasty Eastern side. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217512 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <52130$43355f54$97d56a13$16572@ALLTEL.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:29:09 GMT Fred W4JLE wrote: > Your lack of education is showing. It is a Jewish thing, the name of God is > never written in any form that can be erased. That's kinda strange since "God" is a title, NOT a name. Do they also refuse to write "Lord", I wonder? Do they refuse to write "Elohim", i.e. the Genesis Gods? How about "Jehovah" and "Allah"? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217513 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mike" References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:39:45 -0400 Message-ID: <4335676b$1@news.usenetzone.com> I'll tell you what...why don't you stop talking about him in this room, since it is off-topic and then you don't have to worry about preserving the "name of God." wrote in message news:jfoaj1duhbott9vbo7do911kkvolu1l3uc@4ax.com... > > There are those who have taken a vow to protect and preserve the > written name of G-d. Since this is nearly impossible when using > electronic media, I do not write the name. > > It's a simple courtesy that costs me nothing. > > > -- msosborn at msosborn dot com _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account Article: 217514 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <52130$43355f54$97d56a13$16572@ALLTEL.NET> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:46:31 -0400 Message-ID: <1c2e7$433566f0$97d56a13$17918@ALLTEL.NET> My favorite was a short story years ago called "All the names of God". Seems a group of monks in Tibet or some other eastern place were writing all the possible perturbations of their alphabet. Having completed the task the universe would end as mans purpose had been fulfilled. At the rate they were going the task would be completed in about another 400,000 years or so... That was until an enterprising computer salesman showed them that with a sufficiently large order from his company, the task could be finished in 3 weeks. As the end of the run came near, the salesman decided to get out of Dodge, as he did not want to deal with a group of pissed off monks when the universe didn't end. Besides he had a hell of a commision to spend! The last line was a classic "As he looked out the window of the airplane, silently, one by one, the stars were going out". "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:VodZe.2610$G64.2073@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > Fred W4JLE wrote: > > > Your lack of education is showing. It is a Jewish thing, the name of God is > > never written in any form that can be erased. > > That's kinda strange since "God" is a title, NOT a name. > Do they also refuse to write "Lord", I wonder? Do they > refuse to write "Elohim", i.e. the Genesis Gods? How about > "Jehovah" and "Allah"? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217515 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:57:09 -0400 Message-ID: <8797c$4335696e$97d56a13$18704@ALLTEL.NET> Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood"). Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better. The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God. It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of God on web sites like this one or in BBS messages: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is normally written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet for more information about using letters as numerals wrote in message news:jfoaj1duhbott9vbo7do911kkvolu1l3uc@4ax.com... > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:55:16 -0700, Cmdr Buzz Corey > wrote: > > >Matt Osborn wrote: > > > If your point is that atheists know that there is a G-d but deny it, > >> I could accept that argument. > > > >An atheists that knows there is a G-d? Isn't that one of them expoy morons? > > > >So why are you afraid to actually type the word G-d? What does the - do? > > There are those who have taken a vow to protect and preserve the > written name of G-d. Since this is nearly impossible when using > electronic media, I do not write the name. > > It's a simple courtesy that costs me nothing. > > > -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217516 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <4335676b$1@news.usenetzone.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:59:11 -0400 Message-ID: <6a20c$433569e8$97d56a13$18907@ALLTEL.NET> Jesus Mike, don't get your panties in a wad... "Mike" wrote in message news:4335676b$1@news.usenetzone.com... > I'll tell you what...why don't you stop talking about him in this room, > since it is off-topic and then you don't have to worry about preserving the > "name of God." > Article: 217517 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:44:28 GMT Matt Osborn wrote: > There are those who have taken a vow to protect and preserve the > written name of G-d. Since this is nearly impossible when using > electronic media, I do not write the name. But "God" is a title, not a name. There's God Yahweh, God Jehovah, God Jesus, God Allah, God Ra, God Thor - to name just a few. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217518 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: The Cavity Magnetron. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:09:05 -0500 Message-ID: <11jb21o36nq8ocf@corp.supernews.com> References: Reg Edwards wrote: > Copied from the UK Amateur Radio Newsgroup. > > =================================== > "Joe McElvenney" wrote > >>Randall and Boot's cavity magnetron >>didn't really come onto the scene until about 1940. >> > > =================================== > > R & B's cavity magnetron was developed at Birmingham University in the > midst of the air raids on that industrial city. We can imagine R & B > having to hide under the workbench whenever a descending bomb was > heard, culminating in a loud bang and broken glass. > > The ingenious device generated a peak pulse power of 50 kilowatts at > 3000 MHz. Pulse repetition frequency 400 Hz. Pulse width 1 > microsecond. So far as I can remember there were 6 or 8 cavities > milled into the copper block. Alternate anodes surrounding the > cathode, and close to it, were strapped together at their ends via > copper bars. The block diameter was about 2" and about 1" thick. The > magnet was a U-shape with pole-pieces which closely fitted the flat > ends round the block such that the magnetic field was parallel to the > cathode. > > Because the luftwaffer in 1940/1 had more bombers than the RAF, and in > view of its potential as a war weapon, Churchill personally banned > installation in RAF aircraft in case the top-secret device should be > shot down over Germany and fall into the hands of German scientists > and engineers. > > So Churchill handed the cavity magnetron to Roosevelt as a free gift > in return for 50 rusty, old, WW1 destroyers. The manufacturing > capacity of the US radio industry far exceeded that of the UK. Not to > be outdone, the Americans soon produced a 10,000 MHz version. > > I first held one in my hands in 1945 by which time centimetric radar > had been installed in RAF Catalina and Sunderland flying boats on > convoy-escort duties in the Battle of the Atlantic. By 1945 German > submarine crews were on suicide missions like kamikazi pilots, only 1 > U-boat in 10 returned to base. > > There are more than 100,000 merchant ship and U-boat crew-members > sharing Davy Jones locker at the silent bottom of the North Atlantic > Ocean. Thus was the ferocity of the war. > > Once having detected a centimetric radar beam, and being accurately > located themselves, submarine commanders preferred to remain on the > surface, uncover the guns, and fight it out, day or night. > > During most of the war there had been little effect on German > industrial production by RAF raids. Many bombs fell on open fields and > sometimes killed cattle. But by 1944 RAF navigatigators had maps of > rivers and cities laid before them. More than a 1000 heavy bombers, > Lancasters, could be put into the air, night after night. > > With radar they couldn't miss whole cities and individual districts. > Nevertheless on one occasion more than 100 bombers, complete with > crews, failed to return to base. Such occurrences greatly exceeded the > capacity of factories to produce them and to train aircrews. > > During the last 12 months of the war, radar equipped RAF bombers > killed more German civilians than died in the concentration camps. > Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which came shortly after, were just chicken > feed. Air Marshal "Bomber" Harris was never knighted for services > rendered. > > The main beneficiaries of R & B's invention of the cavity magnetron, > done amid the high-explosives and incendiaries falling on Birmingam, > have been the Japanese and other Far Eastern peoples who have > manufactured many millions of cheap, reliable, microwave ovens. > > And of course the many millions of people like you and I who benefit > from daily hot meals. I detest barbiques. > > There was held in the Kensington, London, Science Museum, the original > prototype of the cavity magnetron without its magnet. It was in a > securely locked mahogany and glass case and looked, as I recollect, > like a small dirty can of baked beans with things sticking out of it. > It may still be there. > > Makes a change from so-called SWR meters. > ---- > Reg, G4FGQ. > > Reg; Thank you for your report. And thank your country men for the many inventions that they have contributed to mankind. Dave, WD9BDZ Article: 217519 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jay in the Mojave Subject: Re: The Correct Polarization Saves Lives During WW2 Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:02:42 -0700 Message-ID: <11jb5674t2pb218@corp.supernews.com> References: Hello Walt: Great story! I printed the story out and passed it around at the local coffee shop yesterday. A collection of distinguished radio enthusiasts. Everyone liked it. I think now some are building loop antennas. I just saw a story on Amelia Airheart on the History channel I think, it showed a DF Loop Antenna being installed on top the fusalog of their Lockheed Electra Aircraft. The Training secession for the DF Equipment turned into a photo shoot instead of a hands on training session. According to the reporter. Great story. Id bet there would be a market for a book of great stories like this one and the one on the Beverage antenna. Please send more. Jay in the Mojave Walter Maxwell wrote: > During WW2, Prose Walker, W4BW, (then W2CXA) in 1942 became Chief of the > Radio Security Center (RSC) of FCC's RID, located in the Dillingham Building, > Honolulu. (Long after WW2 Walker was Chief of the Amateur Division of the FCC, > succeeded by John Johnston, W3BE, President of QCWA.) In his position as Chief > RSC Walker learned that many military aircraft and its personnel were being lost > at sea while traveling from the U.S. Mainland to Hawaii. There were two reasons > for their being lost, 1) 'navigationally impaired' pilots (bureaucratese for > 'lost'), and 2) totally drained fuel tanks. There was naturally a limit to the > size of the fuel tanks, but what caused the pilots to become navigationally > impaired? That point preyed on Walker's mind, and on investigating he discovered > a deplorable situation that needed fixing. Here's what he found. > At the Boeing aircraft plant in Seattle they were building bombers as fast > as possible. Dozens of green flight teams just out of flight school were > awaiting their new aircraft, and anxious to get aboard and proceed to the South > Pacific area as soon as possible. The navigators and radio operators were taught > how to use the loop direction finders that were standard equipment on the > aircraft. But they were never told that loop DF's were incapable of obtaining > reliable directional information from signals propagated by sky waves. The DF's > aboard the aircraft were capable of delivering reliable data only when the > electromagnetic energy in the received signals is vertically polarized, but the > navigators and radio ops didn't know that. Unfortunately for them, on reflection > and refraction through the ionosphere, a linearly-polarized wave is converted > into an elliptically-polarized wave, resulting in a continual shift in the null > obtained by the loop DF as the polarization angle of the incoming signal rotates > elliptically during propagation. Consequently, once the aircraft has left the > mainland, and can no longer receive the vertically polarized waves from AM > broadcast stations, the only reception remaining is from sky waves propagated > far beyond the range of the ground waves of the AM stations. Therefore, bearings > taken from the loop DF's aboard the aircraft when at sea beyond the ground wave > signal were useless. The only remaining means for the navigator to determine the > position of the aircraft was through celestial navigation, using readings from > the sun or stars. The situation gets pretty bad on cloudy days, and that's when > the pilots became navigationally impaired. > At this point Walker came up with a solution that ended the era of lost > aircraft flying between the mainland and Hawaii. Fortunately, every FCC > monitoring station in the U.S., Hawaii, Alaska, and Puerto Rico had Adcock > direction finders as standard equipment. Adcocks, as you probably already know, > are susceptible only to the vertical component of the arriving wave, regardless > of its angle of polarization. Therefore, instead of constantly wandering, as > with the loop DF, the null obtained appears at constant angle on the Adcock > scale, even though the angle of polarization of the arriving wave is continually > rotating elliptically. In other words, Adcocks give accurate directional > information obtained from sky waves. Walker's reasoning was that triangulation > from bearing measurements obtained by the FCC Adcocks taken on signals > transmitted from the lost aircraft could determine its precise location, and > thus determine a course to fly directly toward Hickam Field in Honolulu. The > problem then was how to organize the communications to achieve the necessary > procedure. Walker organized it in this manner: > The CAA (then the Civil Aeronautics Administration) had a terminal in > Honolulu with facilities for communicating with all aircraft. A direct teletype > connection was setup between the CAA and the RSC, which had a kilowatt > transmitter used to communicate with the secondary monitoring stations on all > the Islands, each of which had Hallicrafters HT-9 transmitters. When the pilot > of the aircraft determined they were lost, the radio operator signals the CAA, > who instantly puts the aircraft's frequency on the teletype and rang its bell, > alerting the RSC operator of the situation. The RSC operator then sends the > following message to all secondary stations that continuously monitor the RSC > frequency: "LOS LOS LOS 4250 4250 4250," where LOS meant lost aircraft and 4250 > was the frequency being transmitted by the aircraft. The operators of the Adcock > DF stations immediately tune to the 4250 KHz frequency, hears the aircraft, and > begins taking continuous bearings. The aircraft is sending long dashes, MO MO > MO, to enable the DF operators to be certain they're hearing the right signal, > and obtain a satisfactory bearing angle on a moderately constant signal. > As each bearing is taken by all stations, the bearing angles are > transmitted to RSC, where a great circle map of the entire Hawaiian area is > hanging on the wall. A compass rose is printed on the map at the location of > every monitoring station in the Islands, with a hole in the center of the rose > through which a weighted string is hung. A pin is attached to the opposite end > of the string to secure the string at the desired point on the map, with the > string stretched over the angle on the compass rose indicating the angle of the > bearing obtained by that particular station. As the strings representing each > station reporting are secured they intersect at the point indicating the > location of the lost aircraft, the intersection point called a 'cocked hat'. It > was usual for the aircraft's position to be determined within ten minutes after > the pilot alerted the CAA of its being lost. > After the aircraft's position is located it is then given a course to fly > toward Hickam Field, and the bearing measurements are reported continually until > the pilot can see the Field. During this time the aircraft's location is > followed all the way in to the Field, thus verifying the accuracy of the bearing > measurements and the pilot's success in following the directions. > Once Walker's plan was in operation no more aircraft were lost while flying > between the mainland and the Hawaiian Islands. In 1943 alone, 273 aircraft were > saved by the FCC Adcocks, and more than 600 were saved during the duration of > the War. > Unfortunately, planes were continuing to be lost on the run between Hawaii > and the South Pacific, so Walker was invited by the Military to investigate. > What he found was almost unbelievable. The Army Air Corps was using Mercator > Projection maps for those runs, unaware that using maps of that projection > produced directional errors of humongous and fatal proportions. On Walker's > advice, once they acquired new maps with great circle projection, the number of > lost planes dropped to zero. > This is just one of the stories of how the FCC assisted in the ending of > WW2. I was privilged to have been one of the bearing takers. > > Walt, W2DU Article: 217520 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: The Cavity Magnetron. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:07:19 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Rich, you sure have an extensive vocabulary. But try as I can, I can't make any sense out of your long message about what can only be a trivial matter of your chosen ideas of gamesmanship. Kaput! I give up. ---- Yours, Punchinello, G4FGQ. From Wed Sep 28 23:52:48 EDT 2005 Article: 217521 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:10:36 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 14 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn14feed!worldnet.att.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-05!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22773 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217521 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29478 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208639 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251120 On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:44:28 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: >> There are those who have taken a vow to protect and preserve the >> written name of G-d. Since this is nearly impossible when using >> electronic media, I do not write the name. > >But "God" is a title, not a name. There's God Yahweh, God Jehovah, >God Jesus, God Allah, God Ra, God Thor - to name just a few. I don't defend the practice, I merely observe it as a curtsey. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217522 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Mike" References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 14:27:02 -0400 Message-ID: <43359cb7@news.usenetzone.com> Isn't a curtsey, what little girls do and women before a queen? This is off-topic for all the newsgroups that it is being posted on. Take it to e-mail. wrote in message news:pj5bj1lr49s2kir8srq5aaa1lp9dgc0dg1@4ax.com... > > I don't defend the practice, I merely observe it as a curtsey. > > > -- msosborn at msosborn dot com _________________________________________ Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server More than 140,000 groups Unlimited download http://www.usenetzone.com to open account Article: 217523 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com Subject: Re: The Cavity Magnetron. Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: Reg Edwards wrote: > > >Makes a change from so-called SWR meters. > > > > Ah Reggie! > > > > Hardly, SWR was the second most considered technical hurdle in the > > development of RADAR. > > > > 73's > > Richard Clark, KB7QHC > ================================= > Ah Rich!, Yet again you deliberately distort my meaning in your > amusing game of 0ne-Upmanship. > For the benefit of lurkers, there's a great difference between meters > which purport to measure SWR at HF, but do no such thing and tell > lies, and probes inserted in waveguides at 3 GHz which tell the truth. > ---- > Reg. Sorry, I don't see any difference between making voltage measurements with a directional coupler and calculating SWR through meter calibration and making voltage measurements on a slotted line and calculating SWR with a calculator or pencil and paper. Best I can tell is you are saying there is no such thing as a SWR meter. That's like saying there is no such thing as an airspeed meter in an airplane; the meter really measures air impact pressure. If that is your point, so what? -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Article: 217524 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:33:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <52130$43355f54$97d56a13$16572@ALLTEL.NET> <1127572602.342832.210830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5s2bj1pgb8ni8ll9fv80e628k8micmu80f@4ax.com> It's quite possible, at this stage of the art, for a female to have a virgin birth. Even a clone of herself. A male's sperm is unecessary and is redundent. In the near future it may need male doctors to do what is necessary. When females can organise things the situation will slightly change. Males will be entire redundent except for recreational purposes. They will then fade away into history. But all this will not solve the problem of the illegal occupation of Iraq. ---- Reg. Article: 217525 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Song for Debbie H Subject: Re: Fractal Antennas References: <1127500565.002715.196800@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:07:20 +0200 In article <11j8iv9ofrglt2a@corp.supernews.com>, "Rod Maupin" wrote: > I don't know, but I would like to know. I am a software developer and am > interested in fractals. > > Rod KI7CQ > > Have you programmed IFS by Michael Barnsley ??? Look at is as a ... markov chain .. solve the equation with the multigrid method. Then you have a P¨HD, like mine, but 1à years later ;-) Well, I would like to have a program that makes IFSs on unix/linux/apple to make X x Y images X, Y > 2000 I have one on macos 6. ;-) -- Article: 217526 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <52130$43355f54$97d56a13$16572@ALLTEL.NET> <1127572602.342832.210830@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <5s2bj1pgb8ni8ll9fv80e628k8micmu80f@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:31:16 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > Males will be entire redundent except for recreational purposes. They > will then fade away into history. Maybe only get kicked out of the hive when winter approaches. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217527 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Uncle Ted Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:55:28 -0400 Message-ID: <4pebj15vgg4hnncf93r04ubu0pu6litmju@4ax.com> References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:44:28 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: >> There are those who have taken a vow to protect and preserve the >> written name of G-d. Since this is nearly impossible when using >> electronic media, I do not write the name. > >But "God" is a title, not a name. There's God Yahweh, God Jehovah, >God Jesus, God Allah, God Ra, God Thor - to name just a few. If we're one nation "under god", which god is it? This is what Michael Newdow should have asked the Supreme Court last year. Too bad the court weaseled their way out of a ruling based on the child custody issue. Article: 217528 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Charlie" Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article ... Judaism and G-d Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:16:57 -0500 Message-ID: <11jbgiqjpd3to88@news.supernews.com> References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <8797c$4335696e$97d56a13$18704@ALLTEL.NET> No need to "apologize for the Top Post" it is the new old-fashioned way of the future... -- Charlie "David.Shrader" wrote in message news:moqdnSy21Pu8LKjeRVn-iA@comcast.com... >I apologize for the top post. > > Thanks Fred. Something useful has finally come out of this thread. > > Fred W4JLE wrote: > >> Jews do not casually write any Name of God. This practice does not come >> from >> the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In >> Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a >> prohibition against swearing by God's Name falsely or frivolously (the >> word >> normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood"). >> >> Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of God per se; it prohibits >> only >> erasing or defacing a Name of God. However, observant Jews avoid writing >> any >> Name of God casually because of the risk that the written Name might >> later >> be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not >> know better. >> >> The commandment not to erase or deface the name of God comes from Deut. >> 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over >> the >> promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous >> religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the >> local >> deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to >> our >> God. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy >> any >> holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of God. >> >> It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing >> Names >> of God applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent >> form, and recent rabbinical decisions have held that writing on a >> computer >> is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type God's Name >> into >> a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and >> delete files with God's Name in them. However, once you print the >> document >> out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid >> writing a >> Name of God on web sites like this one or in BBS messages: because there >> is >> a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. >> >> Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, >> for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, >> which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Heh (10-5), is >> normally >> written as Tet-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Heh is a Name. See Hebrew Alphabet >> for >> more information about using letters as numerals >> > Article: 217529 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article References: <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> <9j86j1ldjphhhcge4t96p4hlun0qsnbohg@4ax.com> <433440ac$0$9217@dingus.crosslink.net> <51v8j1dmho8tc9bpcvmj1liusq8qdfv7mo@4ax.com> <26WdncROlerDdKneRVn-iQ@gbronline.com> <4pebj15vgg4hnncf93r04ubu0pu6litmju@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:46:06 GMT Uncle Ted wrote: > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:44:28 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >>But "God" is a title, not a name. There's God Yahweh, God Jehovah, >>God Jesus, God Allah, God Ra, God Thor - to name just a few. > > If we're one nation "under god", which god is it? That's the beauty of god, the one supreme being who goes by many names in many languages - take your pick. I call my supreme being, "Mother Nature" and it's not nice to fool Mother Nature. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 217530 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <4335D3C9.5722F5A4@js.com> From: joey Subject: The Tower still standing ???? Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:31:37 GMT http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html Wonder if this tower is still standing, with guy cables anchored to oak trees and one telephone pole ?? Article: 217531 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:38:21 -0400 Message-ID: <5245a$4335d586$97d56a13$3658@ALLTEL.NET> Most convicts get "religion" because it looks good for the parole board. The reason Jews are under represented is the high value placed on education by the Jewish culture. A lesson lost on the ghetto dwellers in spite of the fact the early civil rights fight was for an equal education. As long as niggers equate education with "acting white", they will enslave themselves far more effectively that any plantation Massa of pre War of Northern Agression times. Once a group learns education opens the doors of opportunity, they are truly free. Your desperate grasping at straws to support atheism indicates to me, a crying out on your part for someone to lead you to the path of understanding. I shall pray for you my friend. Even if you do not believe in God, he believes in you! "Zoran Brlecic" <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote in message news:Oo2dnQo1qoWNTajeRVn-vQ@comcast.com... > According to you, all atheists should be immoral by definition. It > follows that prisons should be overflowing with them. Yet, strangely > enough, in American prisons, Christians are over-represented, while > atheists (along with Jews and Muslims) are under-represented. Article: 217532 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Fred W4JLE" References: <4335D3C9.5722F5A4@js.com> Subject: Re: The Tower still standing ???? Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:44:05 -0400 Message-ID: <852b2$4335d6de$97d56a13$3881@ALLTEL.NET> Let me suggest you head down there and watch the darn thing. Why are you so fixated on this guys tower? Are you simply waiting with baited fingers to type "Nah, Nah, I told you so"? I do note that a number of built to good engineering practice, inspected, infected, dejected towers of various radio station came down... "joey" wrote in message news:4335D3C9.5722F5A4@js.com... > http://deepsouthnet.net/tower.html > > Wonder if this tower is still standing, > with guy cables anchored to oak trees > and one telephone pole ?? > From Wed Sep 28 23:52:51 EDT 2005 Article: 217533 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:00:29 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <43109$43317117$97d56a13$4287@ALLTEL.NET> <42o5j1hr6hcohe06553lvib5epqepnjv50@4ax.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 123 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.vmunix.org!newsfeed.stueberl.de!news-in.ntli.net!newsrout1-win.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-12!sn-xit-09!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22780 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217533 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29486 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208648 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251128 On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:04:00 -0700, Zoran Brlecic <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > >>>>In all cases, they believe and act according to their beliefs. That >>>>the atheists fall prey to their unrecognized beliefs cannot be >>>>disputed. >>> >>>And this is because you say so? >> >> Please counter the argument. If atheists do not have faith in their >> beliefs, then upon what basis would they judge their choices? > >First of all, atheism is non-belief in deities. That's it. Anything else >you're adding to this concept is your own projection. >Second, you're equivocating and word-playing on the term "belief". What >beliefs are we talking about in atheism? Atheists don't believe in gods >- a lack of belief is not belief any more than baldness is a hair color. >So, then, what beliefs? When you define this I'll "counter the argument" Belief requires faith in something unknown. I see no difference if one were to name that unknown G-d or call it by some other name. Regardless of the name, we attribute 'correctness' to something we do not know. >>>>I do not deny that both are fallible, however, history demonstrates >>>>that the religious, despite their failures, have improved the human >>>>condition immeasurably where atheists have been only a blight upon >>>>civilization. >>> >>>??? You have got to be kidding? What has religion possibly done for >>>anyone except provided false hope while stealing their money? >> >> Law itself is derived directly from religious thought. > >Sometimes is, sometimes isn't. In the primitive tribal societies it was >much simpler to rule lawless people if you told them some god passed a >certain law and it just so happens that you have a direct communication >line with that god, so that you can interpret it. This is how religions >got born, and by a curious coincidence they all demanded money from >their followers. >Now, show how, for example, the American legal system is derived from >religion. Point out the law that makes it illegal to "covet one's ass" >or to eat shellfish or to wear clothes made from two different fabrics. American law is based upon English common law. English common law, in turn, is based upon "tradition, custom, and precedent." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law >> If there were no belief system, there could be no law. > >??? Look, just pulling statements out of your ass does not make them >believable. If you want to convince people, you have to present >arguments in a coherent way. > >What is so difficult about law anyway? Does it really take a genius to >figure out that murder, rape, slavery, genocide and theft are >detrimental to a society? We need some book written by ancient >goat-herders to tell us what laws are supposed to be? Besides, where, >for example, does the Bible say that slavery is wrong? Oh, that's right, >it doesn't - as a matter of fact, it explicitly condones it. It also >condones genocide, rape, infanticide and all sorts of other behavior >that nowadays is considered uncivilized (albeit only when perpetrated by >the God's chosen people against infidels). Strangely enough, there is no >mention of abortion in the Bible whatsoever, while one of the two wildly >different versions of the Ten Commandments deals with God's humongous >vanity. The single largest disagreement in the United States today is the power of government vs the power of the individual. Should each individual control all of his resources or do those resources ultimately belong to the state. >> Dictatorships have no law, that's what makes them so awful. > >??? You're not serious, are you? > The trappings of law are meaningless if they do not apply equally to all. Dictators are the law. > >>Stifling science (from Galileo to stem cells), witch burning, condoning >>>slavery, religious genocide on unprecedented scale, eradicating whole >>>civilizations, oppressing women, condoning fascism and >>>national-socialism, suppressing human rights for minorities, huge waste >>>of resources that could be better spent elsewhere, contributing to >>>millions of dead from AIDS by banning contraceptives, flaming national >>>and religious intolerance from Ireland to Palestine, and I could go on >>>forever... >>> >>>As for your "blight" comment, a majority of scientists are atheists, for >>>example. The percentage increases with education. That's education *not* >>>Kansas style. >> >> Do not attribute to religion the faults of mankind. Religion is a much >> broader concept than that represented by any known religion. > >No, it isn't. Your turn. Humans have many attributes, they think, they see, they stink, they feel, they love, they hate, etc. Among those attributes are religion. See Frazer's 'Golden Bough' for the parallels between all religions, ancient and modern. His work has had a substantial impact on the field of psychology. >> While you're assessment of some religions at a particular point in >> time are on the mark, you overlook that same religion at an earlier or >> later point in time when it was substantially different. >> >> Like all things implemented by man, some succeed in their stated >> purpose and others fail. > >Yes, I agree that most of them succeed in their primary purpose, which >is allowing a class of social parasites to live off the gullible. From >Christianity to Scientology. The ultimate Ponzi scheme. > Are speaking of governments or only religion? -- msosborn at msosborn dot com From Wed Sep 28 23:52:51 EDT 2005 Article: 217534 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Matt Osborn <> Newsgroups: alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf,rec.radio.amateur.antenna,rec.radio.amateur.dx,rec.radio.amateur.equipment,rec.radio.amateur.policy Subject: Re: "Hams to the Rescue After Katrina" MSNBC News Article Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:13:13 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <52n6j1ltspei2qc17vnhelkaccvsvuolfr@4ax.com> <43336e29$0$22206$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <43336f99$0$32203$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: news1.isis.unc.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!tethys.csu.net!nntp.csufresno.edu!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news1.isis.unc.edu alt.ham-radio.vhf-uhf:22781 rec.radio.amateur.antenna:217534 rec.radio.amateur.dx:29487 rec.radio.amateur.equipment:208649 rec.radio.amateur.policy:251129 On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 15:15:43 -0700, Zoran Brlecic <...WA7AA...@get.lost> wrote: >Matt Osborn wrote: > >> If you can present a cogent argument for ethics and morality that >> requires absolutely no assumptions, then you could make a case for >> atheism. > >This is false dichotomy. Also, as I said before, atheism is simply >non-belief in gods. It does not prescribe any morals, ethics or behavior. >Furthermore, if you claim that our morals are based on your scriptures, >and if I then go through that "holy" book and find a contradictory >example then it should be obvious that your argument falls apart. >So if your Bible explicitly condones rape and slavery, how do you >reconcile this with your religion-derived morals, other than through >cognitive dissonance? > >According to you, all atheists should be immoral by definition. It >follows that prisons should be overflowing with them. Yet, strangely >enough, in American prisons, Christians are over-represented, while >atheists (along with Jews and Muslims) are under-represented. No, I don't think atheists are amoral or unmoral, I just don't think it's possible to be an atheist. -- msosborn at msosborn dot com Article: 217535 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Hams of FCC's RID Aid Allied Effort in WW2 Message-ID: <1gnbj11s90aa1jc5j5cbrgt5i2e00o7k73@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:22:05 -0400 I'm aware that this post is off-topic, except that it is the basis for my two previous posts that were on topic to antennas. I believe it is time to reexamine the contributions hams and commercial radio ops made to the WW2 effort as they were the operating personnel of the FCC's Radio Intelligence Division. This is their story. With the War already raging in Europe in 1939, people at the State Department knew they were missing vital war intelligence being exchanged by radio, especially that going between Germany and South America. They queried the FCC Field Division in early 1940 about monitoring to intercept the information. The Field Division operated the original primary monitoring stations, performing regulatory and enforcement duties. However, at that time the Field Division personnel had their hands full just monitoring domestic operations, and had no time for intelligence monitoring. Congress was alerted to the need for additional personnel and equipment for the FCC to monitor intelligence, and it approved funds for establishing a new section, the National Defense Operating section, NDO. The NDO began operations September 3, 1940, and was later upgraded to a division, becoming the Radio Intelligence Division, RID. To head the NDO, the late George E. Sterling (W1AE/W3DF) was elevated from Ass't Chief Engineer, FCC, to Chief, NDO Section, and later to Chief, RID. To obtain personnel for the new section he instructed one of his assistants, the late Harriette Koster, to search through the file cards containing the information on licensed amateur and commercial operators. She selected more than 500 operators from the file cards, and over T.J. Slowie's signature, she sent telegrams to those selected, offering them positions of Radio Operator, Ass't Monitoring Officer, and Monitoring Officer. The entire personnel for the new NDO Section, including myself, were obtained from response to those telegrams. (Harrriette later became my wife, and mother of my four children, W2WM, WB4GNR, K4JRM, and KC4UBZ (Sue's license now expired). The Congressional funding also supported building many new secondary monitoring stations throughout the country, each equipped with Hallicrafters SX-28 and S-27 receivers, and Adcock (sky-wave) direction finders. In addition, Hudson automobiles equipped with the receivers and a loop direction finder were a part of each secondary station, used for mobile close-in surveillance. Immediately following Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, the FCC RID mobilized a group from both primary and secondary monitoring stations to go to the Hawaiian Islands to set up eight new secondary stations, one each on Oahu, Molokai, Kauai, Maui, and Lanai, and three on the big island of Hawaii. NDO Chief Sterling accompanied the group, of which I was a member from the primary station at Allegan, Michigan. Extensive 24/7 mobile monitoring around the shoreline of all the islands was pursued, with the intention of finding clandestine radio operation between local Japanese loyal to Japan and Jap submarines cruising off shore. No such operations were found to occur, and no Hawaiians of Japanese descent were found to be disloyal to the U.S. During my stay on the Islands I worked at stations on Oahu, Kauai, Molokai and Hawaii. With Adcock direction finders at all eight secondary stations, plus the one at the primary station in Honolulu, the FCC saved the lives of thousands of military personnel and more than 600 military aircraft flying the Pacific between the Mainland and the Islands during WW2, after becoming lost due to errors in navigation with limited fuel supply. Details on how this task was performed, and how the Beverage antenna was used to receive broadcasts from JOAK Tokyo, were the subjects of my two previous posts. Within the next few months I'll be relating some of the 'real intelligence' work involving RID operations that had a significant effect on shortening WW2. Walter Maxwell, W2DU