Article: 225794 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank Alforo" Subject: rf burn Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:59:11 -0700 Message-ID: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? Article: 225795 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:00:12 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6amo0lvsl84@corp.supernews.com> References: <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> "David" wrote > > The purpose of business is to keep people busy. > Find a job yet, Dr. DaviD? Obviously, you have no use for business. Welfare checks just too damn easy. Article: 225796 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:01:35 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6d9cim1pda5@corp.supernews.com> References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> "David" puked > > Those gated communities won't protect you from the thundering hordes > of hungry people. > Mao TseDong would be extremely proud of you. Article: 225797 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:03:23 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6glrfgfb9cb@corp.supernews.com> References: <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> <3v6o92lpq71dibjr1qlmljih4lkqvjprfb@4ax.com> "David" wrote > > When a company moves offshore they do not reduce prices to the end > users. They increase their profits. Most big companies don't even > pay income taxes because they are legally running out of a drawer in > some Carribean island. > > Eventually the middle class will be gone due to outsourcing. That > will be the end of the USA. > Thank Impeached Clintoon. Besides, what do you care, Dr. DaviD? Your welfare checks will still arrive, no? Article: 225798 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "SeeingEyeDogg" Subject: Re: OT: Outsourcing Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 00:07:07 -0500 Message-ID: <129s6nllmvmaa23@corp.supernews.com> References: <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <44995516$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1aOdnQMcX-kk9gTZnZ2dnUVZ_qadnZ2d@comcast.com> <129lvnf4h9st2d3@corp.supernews.com> <129m9ijcnshm47f@corp.supernews.com> <129ofcclvejs22f@corp.supernews.com> <0bjo92p0h2dfqcum243lc3u1mqv49nu10h@4ax.com> "David" wrote > > During a more civilised time a company went into business to provide > jobs and make profits and to be part of a community. Nowadays > corporations are extranational, have no local ties and just milk > markets dry and move on. How would you describe your welfare stipend? Will you move on when it runs dry? > Corporations pay way less than half th cost of running governments, > even though they are the major beneficieries of what governments > provide. This is because we let them write their own rules. > What "provider benefits" may those be, Dr. David? Article: 225799 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: rf burn From: Ed References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: 25 Jun 2006 05:23:42 GMT > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 > watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How > come? although an over-simplification, the bird is not touching anything else, (grounded)... but you are. Article: 225800 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:34:19 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Message-ID: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was worthless. Duffy www.wb8nut.com Article: 225801 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Yuri Blanarovich" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: <%Dwng.1304$Ym7.135@fe12.lga> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:57:36 -0400 Two major things involved: 1. Depends where you (bird) is touching, you are prone to get more pronounced burn at the high voltage part of circuit (coil, antenna). Higher impedance point - higher voltage - easier, more burn or draw the arc. We used to light up cigarettes by keying the transmitter, touching with pencil the "hot" end of the tank coil and drawing the arc, while puffing. W8JI might argue that current/voltage is ALWAYS THE SAME along the coil, so stand by for more scientwific 'splanation :-) Anyone trying above experiment can easily see that it is easier to draw the arc at high voltage (low current) end of coil than vice versa. 2. Depends on the area/mass (capacitance) of what is touching the RF hot part of the circuit. Fat person vs. small bird would make a big difference. If one end of the person is (capacitively) grounded, the more pronounced effect. 73 -- Yuri Blanarovich, K3BU, VE3BMV "Frank Alforo" wrote in message news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com... > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > Article: 225802 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 08:38:57 -0500 Hi Frank Although ot answering your question I thought I might relate a recent experience of my own. I remember various RF burns over the years. I never however thought I would have an issue with a 18dBm (<100mW) 11GHz TX I work on in my employment. The fault was low output and I was doing an initial feel around with my fingertips, not actually touching an active citcuit metal but looking for excess heat. I then rested my finger on a small screwhead (maybe M2.5) that held the PCB down neear the output stripline (after the MMIC) and got enough of a burn that it felt like a static discharge spike one gets from a nylon carpet. It was a whoppa and totally unexpected! I never did try to reason why the burn happened. The screw was loose about 2-3 turns so I am thinking a tuned cct of some kind with my finger as part of the dielectric! Oh an tighting the screw solved the low power problem! Cheers Bob VK2YQA Frank Alforo wrote: > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. > But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it > stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > Article: 225803 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:08:21 -0500 Message-ID: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are unpredictable. an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. i have met Mr. Rogers several times. Gravity Article: 225804 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Philo" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 14:17:25 GMT "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:O1vng.123149$dW3.77488@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > Frank Alforo wrote: >> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf >> burn. >> But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >> stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > > You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power > line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current > path to another wire or ground. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Beware of the gradient! Article: 225805 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mike Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:30:54 -0400 Message-ID: References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> In article <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "an old freind" wrote: > gravity wrote: > > > and I can send sos with spark gap off a batery without knowing anymore > > > than that > > > > your engineering skill is formidable. > possibly it is certainly more valueble the the mereknowledge of Morse > code is without the level of engineering skill I have > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mike Article: 225806 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:34:39 -0500 Message-ID: <449e9f84$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > Mike i'd like to know his area of concentration. i was not in Physics, but studied electromagnetism. Gravity Article: 225807 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:36:49 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea007$0$16375$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Mike" wrote in message news:no-837487.10305425062006@news.supernews.com... > In article <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, > "an old freind" wrote: > > > gravity wrote: > > > > and I can send sos with spark gap off a batery without knowing anymore > > > > than that > > > > > > your engineering skill is formidable. > > possibly it is certainly more valueble the the mereknowledge of Morse > > code is without the level of engineering skill I have > > > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can > > So you majored in Physics but you can't spell Physicist? Right! > > BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! at a minimum, he would know quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics, special relativity, electromagnetics. if he was theoretical, he studied quantum field theory and general relativity. PC Technician Gravity Article: 225808 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:38:55 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > > BTW I note myone of my double majors was Physics and a phisists can the other major was underwater basketweaving? Gravity Article: 225809 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <129lsrmt0sbhba3@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 09:58:59 -0500 Message-ID: <449ea538$0$16233$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:ZTCmg.55534$Lm5.1692@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > Roy Lewallen wrote: > > That's been the downfall of many a perpetual motion proponent. A > > permanent magnet produces both a field and a force. So it must be a > > source of energy, right? > > I would assume the *total* amount of energy in the magnet > is e=mc^2. your term ONLY includes nuclear potential energy. at ordinary energies, your expression is the correct approximation! Gravity Article: 225810 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> Message-ID: <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:23:43 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > John - KD5YI wrote: >> Tiny points exist everywhere, all the time, whether you wish it or not. > > White cars exist everywhere, all the time, whether one wishes > it or not, yet not all cars are white. To maintain that all > cars are white when at least one is red is not logical. > >> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... > > You should at least study enough of it to get by in this > world. The truth is, not all cars are white. Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona could not exist in fairweather conditions. Now there has been a subtle change to the theme of "prove that corona occurs in more than 99.9% of all cases." Enjoy the banter, John, but don't expect to ever get Cecil to agree on anything. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225811 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT "gravity" wrote in message news:449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are > unpredictable. > > an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. > > i have met Mr. Rogers several times. > > Gravity The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna matching networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. Regards, Frank Article: 225812 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:29:30 GMT Sorry I must have clicked spell check for VSWR not "VISOR"! Also "W" for "WE" and "RMS" for "ROMS". Frank "Frank" wrote in message news:pWxng.91970$S61.1023@edtnps90... > "gravity" wrote in message > news:449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... >> the loss is unacceptable in my opinion. the lobes off the antenna are >> unpredictable. >> >> an all band antenna like that is just to get on the air. >> >> i have met Mr. Rogers several times. >> >> Gravity > > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna > matching > networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. > > Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage > breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" > -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. > > Regards, > > Frank > > > Article: 225813 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:36:34 -0500 Message-ID: <449eae09$0$79689$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. he would have to model the antenna, then figure out what beam headings he desires, then find supports for the antenna. this is IMPOSSIBLE on most sububan lots. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. he might as well use a dummy load. Gravity Article: 225814 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:43:31 -0500 Message-ID: <449eafaa$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. oh it's predictable all right, however it's often USELESS. it's a compromise antenna relative to decent dipoles. Gravity Article: 225815 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:50:45 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb15c$0$76118$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> PHP! http://www.commparts.com/catalog/images/products/8010ABD.gif i'm too lazy to provide more links. Gravity Article: 225816 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:54:57 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb259$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> >These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. you can burn up 6 dB in an antenuator and RG 58. and that's if the SWR is 1 to 1. if someone has interest in 28 mhz, just put up a rotatable dipole too. Gravity Article: 225817 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 10:57:34 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb2f5$0$14626$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Giving a power rating to a dipole is suspicious also; although voltage > breakdown may be a factor. Note that it is rated at 400 WE "ROMS" > -- whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. 400 w RMS. 750 w peak. Gravity Article: 225818 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:00:14 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb396$0$16468$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> check out their Windom. not bad. http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5840 Gravity Article: 225819 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:03:01 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb43d$0$79459$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. > The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts > since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > I have seen at least three antennas that had attenuators in antenna matching > networks in order to meet wideband VISOR requirements. These included > a 25 ft marine whip, and a military vehicular antenna. All you need is a > 3 dB pad for 3:1 VISOR. ya know, an auto tuner is a fun toy. mine is a Yaesu, and when i change frequencies it remembers the values and coax. highly recommended but more expensive than using a decent antenna. Gravity Article: 225820 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:04:13 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb485$0$16322$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Frank" wrote in message news:uZxng.91997$S61.76029@edtnps90... > Sorry I must have clicked spell check for VSWR not "VISOR"! Also > "W" for "WE" and "RMS" for "ROMS". i googled VISOR thinking it was some cool military antenna. Gravity Article: 225821 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:07:43 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb55a$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > >> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... most Usenet discussions are very low quality due to informal fallacies. engineers are smart in physics, but can't debate. Gravity Article: 225822 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb637$0$11086$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Msater degrees In Geophysics and Byzatine studies, the sadly is the > degree I have found most uslefull over the years working with > sometimes for sometimes just around the Us govt that's quite impressive, must have cost you $100,000. you should not stoop to arguing with uneducated people. --... ...-- Gravity Article: 225823 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:18:42 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > More Markie Bullshit, the only thing you were working as in the > government was a janitor! > janitors at the NSA have clearance. they probably get paid well. Gravity Article: 225824 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:20:10 -0500 Message-ID: <449eb842$0$76118$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > You can't even spell "Master's", much less have even thought about > completing the coursework requirements it is suspicious since he misspelled Byzantine. i sometimes misspell technical terms, but i can still spell "engineering". Gravity Article: 225825 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:24:56 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona > could not exist in fairweather conditions. Actually, I said my references indicated that, but that's past history. I later fine-tuned that concept to "Corona cannot exist without an extra energy source besides the fairweather current." Remember - moving airplanes, etc? Please try to keep up. When I am wrong, I immediately correct my error. That's the scientific method in action. My assertion is that charged particle noise can exist without corona and that is most probably under fairweather conditions. I suggest that you and others review the logical difference between exclusive statements and inclusive statements. Exclusive statement: Charged particle noise cannot exist without corona. A mostly meaningless statement since it is virtually impossible to prove. Your side has been asserting these types of exclusive statements. Inclusive statement: Charged particle noise can exist without corona. Easy to prove since it only requires one example. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225826 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <449eb55a$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 16:28:54 GMT gravity wrote: >>>> Cecil, I am not going to study logic ... > > most Usenet discussions are very low quality due to informal fallacies. > engineers are smart in physics, but can't debate. Especially when they don't understand the difference between "exclusive" and "inclusive". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225827 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151252829.001670.88470@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 11:35:04 -0500 Message-ID: <449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> rare photo of the secretive "old friend". http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0628-01.jpg Article: 225828 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:00:57 -0500 Message-ID: <129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com> References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> J. D. B. wrote: > Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then > actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and > on a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was > worthless. > > Duffy > www.wb8nut.com Try super glue. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 225829 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Lloyd the loser" References: <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151252829.001670.88470@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: a pic of the tard Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:03:50 -0400 Message-ID: <449eb4ac$0$9932$88260bb3@free.teranews.com> A real pic of cock gobbler markie tard right before he swaps his she-male wife with a transvestite...... http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9794/markmorgan4ha.jpg , "gravity" wrote in message news:449ebbc3$0$15765$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > rare photo of the secretive "old friend". > > http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0628-01.jpg > > -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 225830 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:22:22 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > > Enjoy the banter, John, but don't expect to ever get Cecil to agree on > anything. > > 73, > Gene > W4SZ Well, thanks, Gene, but I don't really enjoy debating. He will believe whatever he wants, whether it is right or wrong. The world will not be moved by it in either case. 73, John Article: 225831 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:54:35 GMT John - KD5YI wrote: > He will believe > whatever he wants, whether it is right or wrong. I will believe what the technical evidence indicates. But who knows, there may actually be a Corona God up there somewhere in control of all antenna noise. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225832 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Kragh" References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:22:16 +0200 Message-ID: <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Hi In Europe the outside parts are normally glued to the glass using a silicone adhesive.The sticky tape is only used on the inside. I have succesfully remounted 2 metre antennas using silicone adhesive. Use an adhesive intended for wet environments (e.g. intended for caulking bathrooms or aquariums). vy 73 Joergen, OZ7TA "J. D. B." skrev i en meddelelse news:582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET... > Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then > actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on > a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was > worthless. > > Duffy > www.wb8nut.com Article: 225833 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:29:49 GMT J. Kragh wrote: > Use an adhesive intended for wet environments I'll bet the adhesive used for repairing wetsuits would work well. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225834 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <4cmdnSdddae3aAPZRVnyhw@bt.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:36:17 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > It's the current which matters. > > The bird has a capacitance to the rest of the world which depends on > its size. The current which flows up the bird's legs is the voltage on > the antenna divided by the capacitive reactance of the bird's body. > For small birds the capacitance is only a few picofarads and so the > current is extremely small. The bird continues to sing its happy > song. I did surprise an Owl one night sitting astride my Inv-V center insulator. He was apparently touching both dipole wires when I went key down with 100 watts. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225835 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 22:10:45 GMT On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT, "Frank" wrote: >The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. >The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts >since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. That implies there is an attenuator inside the balun. I don't believe we actually have any information with which to better understand the balun. Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. That is probably a reasonable assumption. A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). If the balun was built with substantial loss, it would tend to reduce line losses, and yes, 3dB of loss (which would affect performance on all bands), would improve the performance on 7MHz (though that balun doesn't look like it contains a 200W dissipater). All in all, the configuration, although used widely, can be expected to perform poorly. IMHO tomk3mov@yahoo.com was right in being suspicious of the product claims. Owen -- Article: 225836 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:10:02 -0500 Message-ID: <449f0a48$0$64670$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. i dunno it's a 1:1 Balun. i might email them, cause threads like this are pure profit for them. Gravity Article: 225837 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Butch Magee Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:50:14 -0500 Message-ID: <129u4p8hqmeok3e@corp.supernews.com> References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <84xng.2094$ii.0@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Ralph Mowery wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:O1vng.123149$dW3.77488@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > >>Frank Alforo wrote: >> >>>If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf >>>burn. >>>But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >>>stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? >> >>You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power >>line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current >>path to another wire or ground. >>-- >>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > > You should have seen the TV educational channel where in some countries they > have a basket type trolley that men are put in and hung by helicopter on the > multi megavolt lines. They do wear some kind of suit that is conductive so > the charge will not affect their body so much. > > They ;do that in this country. Mesh suit of some metal, can't remember which metal but not important as long as it's conductive I guess. Great job I bet, big bucks.... Article: 225838 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:59:08 -0500 Message-ID: <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Dave" wrote in message news:f8qdnZGn9v9SggLZnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d@comcast.com... > sbusono@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hi fellow amateurs, > > I am using 746Pro for 6M with direct coax to my 5 el antenna. I used to > > get 1:1 SWR but recently, the SWR runs a little over 1:2 and my output > > drops to 30W.When stations in FN20 were working EU, I could hear > > nothing. My signal can still be received because I was able to make > > contacts despite 1:2 SWR as far as FM5AA. But I know something is wrong > > with the line or the antenna. I checked all the connections and they > > seemed to be ok. > > > > Can someone help by directing me to a source where I can read about > > troubleshooting transmission line? Or can someone who has experience in > > this give me step by step instruction on how to diagnose the problem, > > e.g., is it the PL 259 at the rig side, or the antenna side, or > > somewhere along the line, or is it the antenna altogether. I have an > > ohm meter and a small swr/pwr meter box. > > Thanks in advance. > > > > 73, steve > > Steve, If you can locate someone who owns an antenna analyzer you should be able > to analyze your problem. I use the MFJ 259B. > > Someone in your local radio club should own one, antenna analyzer, or have > access to one. > > BTW, a 2:1 VSWR is not BAD. It indicates that the antenna is receiving 90% of > the available power. However, ICOMs are designed to power down on low to > moderate VSWR. Note: I run about 30:1 on 75 meters. > what about coax losses at that VSWR? Article: 225839 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:08:48 GMT On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:19:43 -0400, Dave wrote: >I get product not found!! > >Is the URL complete? Googling indicates that several domains are directed to this eCommerce website, including jeanshobbies.com, amateurradio.org, buxomm.com, commparts.com, packetradio.com. Did someone say this guy is an Elmer? Looks like he runs a business with a lot of front doors. Owen -- Article: 225840 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:37:05 -0700 "Dave" wrote in message news:kJKdnV2QOYIJ_wPZnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@crocker.com... > even if you aren't touching something you have a much larger surface area to > act as a capacitive path to ground for the rf. < snip > Yes. One of the standard tools used during RADHAZ inspectiions at RF transmitters sites is an RF Burn Gun. (It's shaped like a gun for convenience of holding and use.) It measures the RF potential on metallic structures near a transmit antenna and the tech is part of the circuit, coupling to ground. Current limiting in the RF Burn Gun keeps the tech from harm while he reads the potential off a meter in the "gun." It strikes me that the measurement accuracy varies with operating frequency and size of the tech (via collective X-sub-C). With my big butt and short legs, I might offer more coupling to ground than you scrawny people. Article: 225841 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <9aGng.79980$I61.26846@clgrps13> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:49:09 GMT "Owen Duffy" wrote in message news:or0u921vltnpqfm7bpc2m4dif174h9ui1u@4ax.com... > On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:26:13 GMT, "Frank" > wrote: > > >>The antenna pattern is highly predictable using modeling software. >>The transmission line losses are probably not as high as Owen predicts >>since we do not know the value of the attenuator inside the balun. > > That implies there is an attenuator inside the balun. I don't believe > we actually have any information with which to better understand the > balun. > > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. > > A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from > drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably > transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 > ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). > > If the balun was built with substantial loss, it would tend to reduce > line losses, and yes, 3dB of loss (which would affect performance on > all bands), would improve the performance on 7MHz (though that balun > doesn't look like it contains a 200W dissipater). > > All in all, the configuration, although used widely, can be expected > to perform poorly. IMHO tomk3mov@yahoo.com was right in being > suspicious of the product claims. > > Owen I am inclined to agree with you Owen. I was being a little facetious about the load. I also noticed there is not a single specification on the web site, except for power ratings. (Including the irritating term "RMS power"). Incidentally 750 W into 4200 ohms represents 2.5 kV peak. If the balun is a real transformer it must be well insulated. Frank Article: 225842 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:59:10 -0500 Message-ID: <449f31ef$0$16401$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Owen Duffy" wrote in message news:ar8u92d1j4oklj6ulp57b545hss5a9bu5h@4ax.com... > On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 22:19:43 -0400, Dave wrote: > > >I get product not found!! > > > >Is the URL complete? > > Googling indicates that several domains are directed to this eCommerce > website, including jeanshobbies.com, amateurradio.org, buxomm.com, > commparts.com, packetradio.com. > > Did someone say this guy is an Elmer? Looks like he runs a business > with a lot of front doors. it appears that buxcomm is owned or operated by K4ABT. i have talked to him several times. he has a lot of history in the ham community. Gravity Article: 225843 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:59:38 -0500 Message-ID: <449f320a$0$11186$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > >I get product not found!! > > > >Is the URL complete? it uses PHP and a link won't work. Gravity Article: 225844 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dale Parfitt" References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 01:05:46 GMT "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:129tgaacqdkpa3f@corp.supernews.com... > J. D. B. wrote: >> Anyone know of a VHF/UHF antenna that can mount on the glass and then >> actually stay attached to the glass? I used one several years ago and on >> a hot summer day, it came off. It used that sticky tape which was >> worthless. >> >> Duffy >> www.wb8nut.com > > > Try super glue. > > Dave WD9BDZ Super Glue will not stand up outdoors- maybe 2 weeks- but the real problem is that it is so rigid that it will likely crack windshield glass ( not rear window) because the rate of expansion/contraction of the mounting foot is different for that of the windshield glass. The makers of the rear view mirror button and cement went to a great deal of trouble to ensure that the scintered metal foot and the anaerobic cement both had the same coefficient of expansion as the windshield glass. Dale W4OP Article: 225845 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <5tGng.626$RD.358@fed1read08> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:09:21 -0700 "gravity" wrote in message news:449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net... > > > More Markie Bullshit, the only thing you were working as in the > > government was a janitor! > > > > janitors at the NSA have clearance. > > they probably get paid well. Of all the techie things I could relate to, here's something I never thought would come up: I WAS a janitor at NSA. I was stationed there 1970-1972 as a Sailor and during my last 8 months, I worked as a janitor after hours to make enough money for the down payment on my first house. All the janitors needed to be cleared, which made us military folks shoo-ins for these jobs. The pay was OK for your average part time job. Nothing special, but I was happy for the $1800 I banked in less than a year. (5% of 33,000 used to get a family into a house. Not today.) My first wife still has that house and it's worth $700,000. Article: 225846 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:17:49 GMT Buck wrote: > On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:35:37 -0500, Butch Magee > wrote: > > >>gravity wrote: > > >>>the general rule is L = 234/F, where F is the frequency in megahertz, and L >>>is the length of a quarter wave element in feet. >>> >>>this is a strange troll, can't you come up with something better? >>> >>>Gravity >>> >>> >> >>The formula, which I learned as a novice, I think, is length is=468/f(in >>mHz) > > > > Read the text carefully, he is talking about each of the two 1/4 wave > elements that make up a half wave dipole. > > BTW, what is 468/2 ??? According to my calculator, it is 234. Article: 225847 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <9aGng.79980$I61.26846@clgrps13> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:13:25 GMT On Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:49:09 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: >"RMS power"). Incidentally 750 W into 4200 ohms represents >2.5 kV peak. If the balun is a real transformer it must be well >insulated. ... and if it is a "voltage balun", a much higher flux level (~1300%) than it would at 50 ohms. Considering the information given in the product data, it leaves one with doubts about the suitability of the recommended coax and the supplied balun, and the performance of the entire system. Owen -- Article: 225848 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151098783.711872.84350@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <449c765f$0$16281$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151106176.529709.220710@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <449ea084$0$16012$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151249888.431008.162160@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1151252089.872547.50200@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449eb7ea$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <5tGng.626$RD.358@fed1read08> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <3vIng.636$RD.54@fed1read08> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 20:27:59 -0700 "Dave" wrote in message news:OKmdnUIgWvtgpgLZnZ2dnUVZ_sadnZ2d@comcast.com... > What's she worth?? Try offering two outfielders and a pitcher to be named later :-) Seriously, other than her half of the house (her current hubby got on the deed a few years ago for a re-fi), almost nothing. I divorced her in 1981 and traded away my half of the equity for no claim by her on my future earnings (meaning no spousal support and no splitting of my Navy retirement). She took a second to buy a business, which supported her, although she did not run it well and she took a loss when she sold it. I doubt she ever saved a penny. She draws a Social Security disability pension for several ailments, real or imagined. I fared better ;-) > > Sal M. Onella wrote: > < snip > > > > > My first wife still has that house and it's worth $700,000. > > > > > Article: 225849 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: KC1DI Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 06:49:01 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > Dipole. > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, and > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > appreciated. > My opinion would be that you'd be much better off if you want a single wire antenna fed with coax going with one of the off center fed models. the SWR is much better on many bands than the center fed model. But if you must have a center fed model then you'll need to feed it with open wire line of some sort .. coax just is not going to perform well for you in a single wire all band dublet. the Losses on most bands are not good. 73 Dave kc1di Article: 225850 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:05:46 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona > could not exist in fairweather conditions. I just waded back through my postings. A day or two after making that statement, I added the context in which that statement was made. (That happened days ago). Conventional accepted physics says that corona cannot exist in fairweather conditions without an additional source of energy. When I asked that the source of corona energy be identified, I believe it was you who said, "Who cares?". So I ask again. Given fairweather conditions, what is the source of energy for corona? In matters of politics, one follows the money. In matters of physics, one follows the energy. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225851 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:02:46 -0500 Message-ID: <21487-44A00526-9@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Frank Alforo wrote: "But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world." Frank isn`t using enough power. I worked in a shortwave broadcasting plant filled with 50 KW and 100 KW DSB fully modulated transmitters. Our relatively flat transmission lines were of the 2-wire unshielded 600-ohm variety. These lines must have attracted countless tired migratory birds to alight or try to alight. When a bird would try to grasp a wire, it would instantly be consumed in a puff of smoke and steam. No carcass fell to the earth. Poof! it was gone. Many times their claws were left behind gripping the wire leaving us a record of the bird`s visit. Many wires were covered with bird claws. RF can kill more birds than cats can. Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI Article: 225852 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:57:08 -0500 Message-ID: <44a02082$0$16233$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> if the OP has no antenna or coax problems, he might invest in an antenna tuner. http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm example follows. 100 watt transmitter 30 watts out 50 feet Belden 9913 2:1 SWR 26 watts to antenna Gravity Article: 225853 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:58:43 -0500 Message-ID: <44a020e2$0$15916$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > What coax?? I didn't say I used coax. I said I run about 30:1 VSWR on 75 meters. > > I use 600 ohm open wire tuned feeders. much better than coax. i had no easy way to run twin lead through my window, so i used RG 58. my losses were bad. Gravity Article: 225854 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:59:20 -0500 Message-ID: <44a02106$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> >I've been a ham since before coax became > commonly used. are you bragging about being old? ;-) Gravity Article: 225855 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> <21487-44A00526-9@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:27:28 -0500 Okay silly question Richard Did the birdless claws have any noticable effect on the match/tuning of the antenna? Cheers Bob Richard Harrison wrote: > steam. No carcass fell to the earth. Poof! it was gone. Many times their > claws were left behind gripping the wire leaving us a record of the > bird`s visit. Many wires were covered with bird claws. RF can kill more > birds than cats can. Article: 225856 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:45:42 -0700 Message-ID: References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <449c78d7$0$16391$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151114458.462887.105550@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0smum3-l6l.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <129qn4gq8iod1f@corp.supernews.com> <449dacd1$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > gravity wrote: > >> All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, >> it is >> violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. > > > What is being missed is that charged particle RF noise > is already conventional-wisdom/mainstream-physics. True. The question being asked is "How could it be possible to hear such tiny charges impacting an antenna?" It is just as reasonable to ask how could it be possible to detect the presence of tiny electromagnetically induced currents on an antenna. But in consideration of the latter, it should be apparent that if the magnitude of the randomly fluctuating ion current approaches that of a small electromagnetic current it would be impossible not to detect it. 73, ac6xg Article: 225857 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim - NN7K Subject: Re: Mobile - On Glass Antenna References: <582fa$449e90df$d06640f9$18225@FUSE.NET> <449ef07b$0$90478$edfadb0f@dread11.news.tele.dk> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 20:03:34 GMT Had mine fall off, too, used Rear View Mirror Glue on mine, and no problem since! similar to super glue--auto parts houses carry it. Jim NN7K Cecil Moore wrote: > J. Kragh wrote: > >> Use an adhesive intended for wet environments > > > I'll bet the adhesive used for repairing wetsuits > would work well. Article: 225858 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151277657.955753.186840@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> <449f23db$0$79453$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <44a020e2$0$15916$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Need help on How to test transmission line Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:10:08 -0500 Message-ID: <44a03faf$0$16470$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:wqVng.123537$dW3.57941@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com... > gravity wrote: > > i had no easy way to run twin lead through my window, so i used RG 58. my > > losses were bad. > > At any hardware store, you can buy a drill that will put > a hole through glass. That's pretty easy. i considered a replacement (acrylic) pane for the window, but i couldn't get permission for that. the joys of renting. Gravity Article: 225859 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:54:40 -0500 Message-ID: References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:Qt3ng.484$RD.249@fed1read08... Hi Sal... > I have problems with most characters of four or more elements length. > Exceptions are and , for some reason. Since I don't do CW too much anymore, I have similar problems, and I've been at it since 1961! If I did it more, I'd probably get better and I'm not suggesting that you "need more practice", just offering a little empthy... (:-) [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > like the 1812 overture. Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... 73, Steve, K9DCI Article: 225860 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:19:37 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> Early in this thread "conventional accepted physics" said that corona >> could not exist in fairweather conditions. > > I just waded back through my postings. A day or two after making > that statement, I added the context in which that statement was > made. (That happened days ago). > > Conventional accepted physics says that corona cannot exist in > fairweather conditions without an additional source of energy. > When I asked that the source of corona energy be identified, > I believe it was you who said, "Who cares?". So I ask again. > Given fairweather conditions, what is the source of energy > for corona? In matters of politics, one follows the money. > In matters of physics, one follows the energy. Cecil, I said that one could use either energy or forces (fields) to solve most problems. (I have said something similar several times in the past.) It is often much more convenient to use one formalism over the other due to the availability of numerical information and workable boundary conditions. If the problem is set up correctly and the math is done correctly the same answer will result from either formalism. If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", have at it. Go ahead and set up the correct boundary conditions, figure out the right equations to use, and just plug-and-crank. Piece o' cake. The only minor issue is that the atmosphere can act as a effectively limitless source or sink for energy. But I am confident you can find a way around that little detail. By the way, I would sure like to find that reference you have for "conventional accepted physics." I have a library full of physics books, all of which seem to be conventional and accepted, but I have not found one that has such as all-encompassing title. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225861 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: low power FM TX and multiple antennas? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:21:00 -0500 Message-ID: <12a0jtu841lvn8c@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151335477.317846.142060@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> MRW wrote: > Greetings. > > If we are using one low power FM transmitter and we want to use a 2-bay > FM antenna configuration, will using a power splitter at the > transmitter output be sufficient? > > The FM TX utilizes a type N connection to the FM antennas. .... So if I > split the power output and just have two outputs to handle each of the > two antennas, then that would work right? > > What other considerations should I have in mind? Do I need to worry > about phasing issues? > > Thanks! > You need to move the splitter closer to the antennas in order to save power losses. You you need to worry about phasing but that is taken care of when you run the coax from the antennas to the splitter cut the coax to approx. 1/2 wave. See the ARRL antenna book. You will have a change in impedance in this configuration from the splitter to the antennas. Look at about 70 ohms to the antennas and use 50 ohms from the transmitter to the splitter. I am sure that other helpful assistance will be forthcoming from others. Turn your BS filter on. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 225862 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:19:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Ooooo Saw the call and had to comment... I have a 40M inverted Vee up around 35 ft. . I have had out of state contacts on 75, 40(DX), 30(DX), 17, 15, 10 and 6. Is it a "good" antenna? I wish I had better, but it "works". Do I think it is a great antenna? No. Do I think it can be called efficient on the other bands? No. Do I think it has lots of lobes on the higher frequencies? Yes. If I can hear them, I can usually work them. OK by me... Do I have room for better? No. I got much more than what I paid for $0.00. You can probably do better with a "fan-type" dipole. I keep thinking I should at least add 75M wires and 20M wires. When I have time... . . . . . . . . . . . The antenna in question is similar and just as inefficient on some bands and has many lobes on others. It'll get you on the air if this is what you want / can afford. Dave... I used to talk with KC9DI on 2M. We'd say the calls as fast as we could, just to confuse the random listener...(:-) 73, Steve, K9DCI "KC1DI" wrote in message news:e7odqb$h92$1@nntp.aioe.org... > tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > > Dipole. > > > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, and > > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > > appreciated. > > > > My opinion would be that you'd be much better off if you want a single > wire antenna fed with coax going with one of the off center fed models. > the SWR is much better on many bands than the center fed model. > > But if you must have a center fed model then you'll need to feed > it with open wire line of some sort .. coax just is not going to perform > well for you in a single wire all band dublet. the Losses on most bands > are not good. > > 73 Dave kc1di Article: 225863 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:51:48 -0500 Message-ID: <44a05784$0$15331$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "an_old_friend" wrote in message news:1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > Steve N. wrote: > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > > news:Qt3ng.484$RD.249@fed1read08... > > Hi Sal... > > > > > I have problems with most characters of four or more elements length. > > > Exceptions are and , for some reason. > > > > Since I don't do CW too much anymore, I have similar problems, and I've > > been at it since 1961! > > If I did it more, I'd probably get better and I'm not suggesting that you > > "need more practice", just offering a little empthy... (:-) > > > > > > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > > like the 1812 overture. > > > > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > I am realy gald you said that I was thinking it myself but...... > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > the 5th is the only classical piece i can think of that starts like that but i'm sure there are more. L is easy to remember. "to hell with it". Gravity Article: 225864 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Caveat Lector" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <1151356286.883560.56280@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a05784$0$15331$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: <9nZng.106828$TK1.40562@fed1read06> Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:40:05 -0700 RE THE SUBJECT TITLE No one is eliminating the code, only the requirement to obtain a Ham license Many will use CW for many years to come Consider it an optional communication method. RE : Morse musical and word associations > the 5th is the only classical piece i can think of that starts like that > but > i'm sure there are more. > > L is easy to remember. "to hell with it". > > Gravity > > dah dah dit dah Her comes the bride She is a Queen for the day Queen = Q More associations at URL: http://www.afn.org/~afn05925/cw/ dah dah dit dit -- stupid zebra did it di dah di dah dit AR = You Think You Got It -- CL -- I doubt, therefore I might be ! Article: 225865 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:55:14 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > There's too much fuss made about resonant length of simple wire > antennas. > > (1) Radiating efficiency is hardly affected by being as much as 20 or > 30 percent off-resonance in terms of antenna length. > > (2) The feedpoint resistance at resonance may indeed provide the > theoretical correct termination for the transmission line for 1-to-1 > SWR in the middle of an amateur band. But it is way off resonance at > the band edges with an SWR which causes little if any concern. > > (3) The impedance of the transmission line is usually known only > approximately. The reactance of Zo is always ignored. So exact SWR on > the line is never known. SWR varies slowly with small changes in > antenna off-resonance length. > > (4) If an antenna tuner can accommodate changes in input impedance > from one band to another it can certainly accommodate the omission of > the correction factor 468/F. > > (5) So it hardly matters whether the correction is applied or not. The > minute difference in operating performance will be detected only by an > impossible A/B test. You can put away your pruning shears. > > The theoretical resonant length of a 1/2-wave dipole is 150/F metres. > The actual resonant length is very slightly shorter. > > In free space, the shortening depends on length-to-diameter ratio of > the antenna conductor. But at low heights above ground the shortening > effect increases. > > When the antenna wire is lying on the ground its velocity factor is > approximately 1/2 of the free space value of 1. > > So you see the formula 468/F, although good enough for most purposes > if you want to use it, is very approximate. > > The question is about the resonant length of a 6m dipole. > > Is the dipole 6 metres long or is it resonant in the 6 metre amateur > band? Questioners should make themselves clear. > > Assuming it is 50 MHz, resonant dipole length is very nearly 150/F > metres = 3 metres. > > But the answer depends on conductor diameter. If frequency is 50 MHz > and the antenna is constructed with 14 gauge wire then the resonant > dipole length is 97 percent of 3 metres. > > If the anenna is constructed of 1", 25mm, diameter tubes, then the > resonant length is a little shorter. It is 94 percent of 3 metres. > > But actual lengths are non-critical. You can use a tape measure or a > wooden ruler. And don't worry if you can't find your spectacles. > ---- > Reg. > Hook, line, and sinker! Article: 225866 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:07:10 -0500 Message-ID: <44a07740$0$15851$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "John - KD5YI" wrote in message news:Ct_ng.26884$Xn.3642@trnddc05... > > But actual lengths are non-critical. You can use a tape measure or a > > wooden ruler. And don't worry if you can't find your spectacles. > > ---- > > Reg. > > > > > Hook, line, and sinker! and also the dipole is shorter because you want to cancel out the reactance. a "real" half-wave would have a resistive and reactive component. i think if you get into big tubing or pipe, you get too much reactance. Gravity Article: 225867 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9tzlg.24$JV6.20@fe11.lga> <4496df7b$0$80513$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <129egmv2dvvpa10@corp.supernews.com> <084f92db31l2g9prrnf9a48dkg5pnpc3f0@4ax.com> Subject: Re: i want to know the length of a 6m dipole Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:12:19 -0500 Message-ID: <44a07874$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> > > The theoretical resonant length of a 1/2-wave dipole is 150/F metres. i should have thought of that. c = 3 * 10^8 m/s F = frequency / 10^6 465/F theoretical (feet) 468/F practical i think i made a math error. Gravity Article: 225868 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: rf burn From: Dave Oldridge References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:17:23 GMT "Frank Alforo" wrote in news:129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com: > If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf > burn. But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 > watts and it stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How > come? The bird is (usually) small compared to the wavelength. Much smaller than you are. And, except at the ends of antenna elements, the voltage is not particularly high. Whereas there is a high voltage across your coil and you are a much larger portion of a wavelength than the bird, so significant current will flow into you if you touch the coil. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 225869 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:19:33 -0700 "Steve N." wrote in message news:e7phig$k52$1@avnika.corp.mot.com... > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > like the 1812 overture. > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > > Hm-m-m. I can hear that in my head. ... thought it was the 1812 Overture. BT Playing the selection is mighty convincing: Ol' Ludwig pops off some V's right at the start. I do not seem to have the 1812 Overture handy, so here I tread ever-so-lightly ... not being much for knowing good music. I can run bits of 1812 through my head, too, but not much. (I just get started and run out of headroom.) I shall seek it out. TKS & 73 Sal (really KD6VKW, the vicious killer weasel) Article: 225870 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sal M. Onella" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:42:19 -0700 "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:ol2og.1072$RD.897@fed1read08... > > "Steve N." wrote : > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > > 73, Steve, K9DCI MORE: I just played the 1812 Overture and didn't hear any V's. Heard quite a few T's and E's ... but no V's. Thanks. Article: 225871 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith other. Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:29:12 -0500 Message-ID: <44a0d0c8$0$11193$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message news:ol2og.1072$RD.897@fed1read08... > > "Steve N." wrote in message > news:e7phig$k52$1@avnika.corp.mot.com... > > > > "Sal M. Onella" wrote in message > > > [... snip ...] Oh yeah -- I know because the dit-dit-dit-dah sounds > > > like the 1812 overture. > > > > > > Ummm... I believe you are referring to ''Beethoven's fifth" di - di - > > di - dah. di - di - di - dah. didididah, didididah, didididah... > > > > 73, Steve, K9DCI > > > > > Hm-m-m. I can hear that in my head. ... thought it was the 1812 Overture. > > BT > > Playing the selection is mighty convincing: Ol' Ludwig pops off some V's > right at the start. I do not seem to have the 1812 Overture handy, so here > I tread ever-so-lightly ... not being much for knowing good music. I can > run bits of 1812 through my head, too, but not much. (I just get started > and run out of headroom.) I shall seek it out. TKS & 73 it is a 12(?) minute piece, and i ran a few minutes through my head. there is a short part that goes dit dit dit dah. if you get the real cannon / bass drum recording, it is incredible. Gravity Article: 225872 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Owen Duffy wrote: > . . . > Frank, in the absence of information on the balun, I did model it as > ideal, and that the load at the load end of the coax was 4200 ohms. > That is probably a reasonable assumption. Perhaps the 4200 ohms is reasonable, but the assumption that the balun is ideal when connected to that load impedance is most definitely not. Any result you get when using that assumption is useless. > A real balun would not perfectly isolate the transmission line from > drive so influencing feed point impedance , and would probably > transform the real feed point impedance to something different to 4200 > ohms, and so the line losses could be different (better or worse). A real balun would do all those things, in addition to adding reactance and, at that impedance level, loss. >. . . Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225873 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:24:38 -0700 Message-ID: <12a21r9tce0jpf4@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> tomk3mov@yahoo.com wrote: > The BuxComm Antenna Company sells what it calls an All Band Coax-fed > Dipole. > > http://www.commparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=114318&osCsid=a84f7ccef1c8c9d59effad91005875fb > > > It consists of 135 ft. of wire, a balun at the center feed point, How did you conclude that the feed point is at the center? The lengths of the sides are labeled only "L1" and "L2" on the drawing. and > the RG 8X coax transmission line. I don't claim to know a whole lot > about antennas, but this configuration is contrary to everything that I > have read about feeding mutiband antennas. When I wrote to the company > with a question about this, I received a response from K4ABT, Buck > Rogers himself. He attached to his note a section from the ARRL Antenna > Book, which seems to indicate that coax should not be used with this > type of antenna if one wants to use it as a multibander. I have a lot > of respect for Buck, based on his years of Elmering a lot of us through > his articles. But this one has me stumped. Any input will be > appreciated. I believe the antenna will be quite inefficient on some if not all bands, either by accident (a balun which becomes lossy when confronted with extreme impedances) or intent (a resistor inside the "balun" container). If so, it's possible you'll get a reasonable match on all bands, and nearly certain that you'll be able to talk to some people when using it. But it also means that your signal will be considerably weaker than it would be if you were using an efficient antenna. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225874 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:43:12 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", have > at it. The basic question is where does the energy from corona come from? There should be a simple answer to that simple question. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225875 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff Dieterle" Subject: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:48:16 -0500 Message-ID: I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my computers and Directv receivers. Article: 225876 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:49:34 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: Message-ID: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> I know what you mean about Elmering. Many of the new hams had to Elmer the old CW only hams who had no idea how to operate a computer or even use all the great new digital modes. Some of the dinos had trouble trying to figure out the solid state rigs. They kept looking around for things to tune like it was some boat anchor tube rig - LOL!!! It's amazing how the dinos can operate a key, but they can't get the hang of a mouse. We eventually had to give up. Can't teach the old dogs new tricks so the younger and newer hams used the digital modes and the old dinos stuck to their CW. Although the CW types were amazed how PSK31 could be copied even when you could not hear the other station. They admitted that you can't copy CW if you cannot hear it. I think we made a lot of progress on FD. Finally the dinos admitted that there are modes that are better and more capable than CW. One old guy even said we should give up on the CW testing and test new hams how to use a computer and the new digital modes and that was more relevant for today's ham radio. Slow Code wrote: > Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also glad > that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, when a > computer goes down it's like the end of the world. > > sc > > Article: 225877 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:57:58 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", >> have at it. > > The basic question is where does the energy from corona > come from? There should be a simple answer to that > simple question. Cecil, Why should there be a simple answer? I already told you that is not the path I would take if I wanted to find a quantitative solution. You might check your "conventional accepted physics" references if you are looking for a simple answer. On the other hand, if those references consist only of hand-waving explanations, common sense logic, and quotes from legions of experienced radio amateurs, then you may need to do some actual work to find your answer. 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225878 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:44:58 GMT I have a similar situation. I have come to believe the most important thing to do is assure that all of the ground rods are connected. I have power, phone and cable service underground. I don't think I have had a significant strike since last August when I had a company install lightning rods on the house. They were very careful to ground the base of the tower to one of their rods. They installed Galvanized rods. Another good question is whether to ground the rebar in the tower base. I elected not to worry about it but to focus on tower grounding. I wonder about the dishes on the tower. In times past mounting them too high mad them vulnerable to terrestrial noise. The wind load they contribute can be awesome. On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 08:48:16 -0500, "Jeff Dieterle" wrote: >I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna >with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set >in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod >and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. >I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting >strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my >computers and Directv receivers. > John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 225879 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Win Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 12:09:18 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Frank Alforo wrote: >> If I touch the coil in my tuner while transmitting I get a painful rf burn. >> But a bird can perch on my antenna wire while I transmit 100 watts and it >> stays there seemingly without a care in the world. How come? > >You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power >line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current >path to another wire or ground. You could probably hang by both hands if they were close together. I would not want to try it, though. When I worked in broadcast radio years ago, I was always amazed that service personnal would climb the 10 kw tower hot to change lights. They stated they could feel potential between their hands as they climbed. Win, wolz Article: 225880 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:38:29 GMT What you described will do little for lightning protection except give you a false sense of security. Surviving a direct hit requires much more grounding and proper treatment and routing of all cables into the house. I would highly recommend spending $20 on PolyPhaser’s book of info or at least reading the tech notes on their web site. Bob Jeff Dieterle wrote: > I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf antenna > with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower will be set > in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad 5/8"x8ft ground rod > and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg sufficient. > I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting > strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my > computers and Directv receivers. > > Article: 225881 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:43:27 -0500 Message-ID: <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: > >> If you want to solve the corona question by "following the energy", >> have at it. > > > The basic question is where does the energy from corona > come from? There should be a simple answer to that > simple question. Motion of one material against another. Silk/glass, dust/metal, rubber belt/metal combs. They all transfer electrons from one object to anther. Dave N Article: 225882 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: richardharrison@webtv.net (Richard Harrison) Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:05:36 -0500 Message-ID: <376-44A15750-972@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net> References: Jeff Dieterle wrote: "The tower will be set in a concrete (block) 4`x4`x4`. Is driving a copper-clad 5/8"x8 ft. ground rod and sttaching a #6 ground wire to the tower leg sufficient?" Yes, if you have one rod and attachment run outside the tower base block for each of the tower`s legs. This has worked for me countless times with good results. Usually my ground wires were larger than #6 AWG, but I think #6 is likely large enough to work well. The tower ground must be well connected to the electrical service ground to meet code and ensure the potential difference between grounds is insignificant, even during lightning strikes. Best regards, Richard Harrison,KB5WZI Article: 225883 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> <-LadnZuubrOj1zzZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@comcast.com> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:42:38 -0500 Message-ID: <44a16094$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge Article: 225884 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <449c78d7$0$16391$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151114458.462887.105550@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0smum3-l6l.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <129qn4gq8iod1f@corp.supernews.com> <449dacd1$0$15591$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:32:55 GMT Jim Kelley wrote: > But in > consideration of the latter, it should be apparent that if the magnitude > of the randomly fluctuating ion current approaches that of a small > electromagnetic current it would be impossible not to detect it. Exactly. Whether one particle can cause a detectable noise pulse obviously depends on the charge on the noise particle and a number of other parameters. But given, e.g. a coax fed dipole with the coax braid grounded, a difference is charge is likely to occur between the elements that is large enough to be heard. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225885 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith References: <9e847$4482def6$d06640f9$28274@FUSE.NET> <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:37:55 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Granting a person privileges because they're retarded is like being forced > to hire someone because they're black. I've been looking for a flat black colored person but have been unable to find any. I also have not found anyone who is white as a sheet of white paper. Alas, all I have found are people who vary in shades of brown earthtones. By looking at a spectrometer display, it is actually hard to tell one >from another. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225886 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith References: <1149441418.531073.162560@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: <33eog.55053$fb2.28347@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:39:11 GMT Slow Code wrote: > When hardware fails, my pencil and paper still work. When hardware fails, you resort to messages in bottles? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225887 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Email this to President Bush, let's make the FCC do the right References: <129lvmbplp06vb5@corp.supernews.com> <20060622210907.921$Dw@newsreader.com> <129mlm3nr8l38cf@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:40:35 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Hey Chicken Blaster, It's 'peace', not 'piece', you retard. > So stick that in your Crack pipe and smoke it. Maybe he knew the same gal in Ca. that I did. We often smoked the piece pipe. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225888 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:42:06 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also glad > that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, when a > computer goes down it's like the end of the world. While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225889 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:49:37 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > Why should there be a simple answer? Because conservation of energy is a very simple concept. Energy either exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't, corona is impossible. > I already told you that is not the path I would take if I wanted to find > a quantitative solution. I know that already and your particular quantitative solution explains absolutely nothing about reality so it has to be taken on faith. Quantum physics is currently filled with such solutions. Nobody can prove that virtual photons exist because if virtual photons could be proved to exist, they wouldn't be virtual anymore. That's essentially the same argument you are using. "Forget energy reality and place your faith in my religious mathematical model that doesn't require any energy". Sorry, but no thanks. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225890 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:53:10 GMT David G. Nagel wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> The basic question is where does the energy from corona >> come from? There should be a simple answer to that >> simple question. > > Motion of one material against another. Silk/glass, dust/metal, rubber > belt/metal combs. > They all transfer electrons from one object to anther. Does triboelectricity *always* cause corona? Of course not! -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225891 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> <-LadnZuubrOj1zzZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@comcast.com> <44a16094$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> Message-ID: <5keog.55063$fb2.35918@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:57:21 GMT gravity wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge What happens when the charge is not enough to cause corona or arcing? Could RF noise occur before corona occurs? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225892 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:30:21 -0500 Message-ID: <44a179d6$0$16401$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:Rceog.55059$fb2.42157@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > I know that already and your particular quantitative > solution explains absolutely nothing about reality so > it has to be taken on faith. Quantum physics is currently > filled with such solutions. Nobody can prove that virtual > photons exist because if virtual photons could be proved > to exist, they wouldn't be virtual anymore. surely you mean virtual particles like electron and positron pairs. i believe these are mainly a construct to simplify calculations. for instance, Heisenberg had a different approach than Schroedinger. Gravity Article: 225893 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <12a2h0h61ugoca1@corp.supernews.com> <-LadnZuubrOj1zzZnZ2dnUVZ_umdnZ2d@comcast.com> <44a16094$0$14238$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <5keog.55063$fb2.35918@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:31:33 -0500 Message-ID: <44a17a1a$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:5keog.55063$fb2.35918@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > gravity wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_discharge > > What happens when the charge is not enough to cause corona > or arcing? Could RF noise occur before corona occurs? Cebik says you will get a lot of noise with high wind and dry weather. he has a PhD (?), i don't. Gravity Article: 225894 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:46:11 -0500 Message-ID: <44a17d89$0$21501$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:Rceog.55059$fb2.42157@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >Quantum physics is currently > filled with such solutions. we (engineers, physicists) use constructs to get answers. as Feynman said "Shut up and calculate." in some cases, we don't know the underlying mechanism for centuries. e.g. Newtonian gravity. Michael Article: 225895 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: gene@csl.uiuc.edu (Gene Gardner) Subject: Small City-lot 160,75,40,20 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:18:53 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: As an older ham having lived on a small city lot in an older neighborhood, I have only 45' x 55' of back yard for antennas. Fortunately, my neighbor has a tall tree with a branch overhanging my driveway. I have a nylon rope and pulley (used sling-shot) about 40' high on this branch. I have done a considerable amount of experimenting over the years, including wasting time on the infamous CFA (Crossed-field-antenna) or "EH" antenna. I recently posted my surprisingly good results with a mobile configuration [search "Built Mobile using Lewallen "fat dipole" concept"] and decided to see if I could emulate these results by using a "surrogate vehicle". I happened to have a 4' x 11' sheet of aluminum so I placed it on top of 1/2" styrofoam (non-foil) so that nothing touches ground. (This is my substitute "truck"). The feed coax shield goes to the exact center of the aluminum sheet, and of course the center of the coax to the insulated vertical antenna going up toward the pulley. This flexible pulley system conveniently accommodates 160, 75, 40 and 20 meters and works very well on all....especially causing some head-scratching among the long established 160 meter groups who consist mostly of high-power and optimally large antennas. Of great help is the "Capacitive Hat" I use. Actually, it is dual purpose, because it is a 6' diameter Hi-Q horizontal loop (Halo-type) made from 1/2' aluminum tubing (surplus coax) with concentric tin cans with teflon spacers as capacitor to fix-tune to resonance. A trim tab is available when lowered. Its 5' BNC/RG58-leader is connected to about 75' of RG58-U to reach the radio shack, and is hoisted with nylon struts to about 35'. (I have been using it with 1KV SSB peak for about 10 yrs) and it works very well because of decent low-angle omni-directional pattern. So this was very convenient to subtstitute as capacitive hat on 160, 75 and 40 meters. On 160 meters, a very Hi-Q loading coil is used at the 5' leader of the loop mentioned above. I used the same loading coil that I described in the Mobile article mentioned above....with a few more Hi-Q turns added. For the vertical conductor, I used the shield of RG-8 (tied to inner conductor) for low-loss. I didn't measure the shunt matching capacitor required to match feed point to 50 ohms, but it was probably about 1000 Pf . On 75 meters, I jumpered out (shorted) most of the 160 meter loading coil for resonance, and reduced the shunt matching capacitor to probably 400 pf, or whatever is required for very low SWR. On 40 meters, no loading coil is used, and actually the capacitive hat had to be lowered for verical height of only about 15' to reach resonance, and very small shunt capacitance is needed....also it covers the whole 40 meter band. I used RG58 shield because I didn't have RG8 in my junk pile. I may later reduce the 160/75 to RG58 also to reduce the weight on the small pulley that I installed earler...I'm wondering if too much up-and-down might ruin the pulley. I usually take my transceiver and SWR bridge out near the aluminum plate for matching on 160 meters, which is more critical for top performance. As in the Mobile discussion, I still pass the feed coax (I use RG58) with several turns thru some large ferrite toroid cores to minimize currents from coming back on the outside of the feed coax...thus being readily coupled to ground as loss. My speculation about this good performace, is that the aluminum sheet represents an infinite number of radials of equal and opposite horizonal currents that minimize propensity to couple to earth thru the 1/2" styrofoam insulator, and the voltages at the end of the "radials" have very little corona-type loss as the voltage is distributed around the sheet edges, and touch ground nowhere. For those who find these performance claims credible, there could be alternative ways of experimenting, such as figuring ways to make good low-loss connection to "foil-sided" styrofoam sheet laying on a "non-foil" insulator sheet. Or perhaps a series of aluminum-foil spokes connected well at the center and laid on (or between) styrofoam. Article: 225896 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Gene Fuller Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:02:52 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> Why should there be a simple answer? > > Because conservation of energy is a very simple concept. > Energy either exists or it doesn't. If it doesn't, corona > is impossible. > Cecil, OK, energy exists, and it is even conserved. Do you feel better now? 73, Gene W4SZ Article: 225897 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:10:06 -0500 Message-ID: <44a19de4_4@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Win" wrote >>You could probably hang by one hand from a 20 kV power >>line and be OK as long as you didn't complete a current >>path to another wire or ground. > > You could probably hang by both hands if they were close together. I > would not want to try it, though. > > When I worked in broadcast radio years ago, I was always amazed that > service personnal would climb the 10 kw tower hot to change lights. > They stated they could feel potential between their hands as they > climbed. _____________ But the a-c frequency is important here. The voltage gradient between adjacent hand grips for power in a conductor at AM broadcast station frequencies (the vertical antenna radiator, in this case) is a lot higher for the same conducted power than for that same span along a conductor on the 50/60 Hz a-c power grid. RF Article: 225898 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:22:04 GMT Gene Fuller wrote: > OK, energy exists, and it is even conserved. > Do you feel better now? That's a good first step. Now where does the energy come >from that supports corona under fairweather conditions? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225899 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:07:52 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Voip in Amateur Radio,Voip Updated Howto, References: <1151443155.920698.127440@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a1ba48$0$76686$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> broadbandera@gmail.com wrote: > How this is possible, what is the standard, what systems are used, how > cost.. > > http://flying-rugs.com/voip/VoIP-HOWTO.html > To begin with this is an antenna page, but we'll ignore that for now. I do happen to play with VOIP, a lot actually, so I'll go look. Well, your link points to a page that covers a ton of subjects/mini white papers related to VOIP, none of which seems to mention amateur radio. And none of the pages are what I would consider useful. I'd say you need ask your question with more detail, or post a better link. Meanwhile, see - www.trixbox.org for an open source turnkey PBX. Up in less than an hour (if you are familiar with telephony). http://asteriskguru.com/tutorials/ for info on SW/HW which works under the Asterisk PBX. This is the SW PBX behind the trixbox distribution. and http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/ for the VOIP wiki. That ought to keep you busy for a couple minutes. Good luck. tom K0TAR Article: 225900 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Win Subject: Re: AMERICA IN DANGER: Secret Torture Rooms Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 18:55:05 -0500 Message-ID: <9tg3a2dlker2dba770dk2rdv11lbnd8ah4@4ax.com> References: <1151433871.593870.6650@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Interesting! This post originated from from a Lower Merion, PA library, via Google. It was posted to groups in many other countries, mostly in Europe. I am not sure what the agenda is. Win On 27 Jun 2006 11:44:31 -0700, nanovmh@yahoo.com wrote: >AMERICA IN DANGER! >Secret Gas-Aerosol Rooms operated in US >(in Philadelphia, Narberth, Lower Merion, PA) >(in Wilmington and Newark, DE) >(in Hampton, Williamsburg and Richmond, VA) > AND ELSEWHERE.... details below... >Bio-aerosols used to hurt and simulate panic attacks! > >Say "I care" - call Senate (202) 224-3121 >House of Representatives (202) 225-3121 > > America in danger - >The vice is NOT impeached. > America in danger - >The public trust is breached. > >Big Brother spins protection... > And fear is used to clamp. >Democracy needs action! > On which side do you stand? > > Which side are you on, boys? > Which side moves you on? > Which side are you on, girls? > Which side moves you on? > (Chorus after F. Reece) > >Your church is burned by haters, > The priests to go to jail? >Your dreams are cheynned by traitors, > But hope still shines through veil. > >"Dust rooms" came back to gas us > With neo-Naz (or Con) embrace... >New immigrants do make US! > And not the Super-race... > V. Haryk-Bukovynsky © VMH > > >Looked at this?!! Go to Google/Yahoo newsGroups: >----------------------------------------------------------------- >TORTURE IN USA: Secret Aerosol Rooms > >US Scientist needs legal help dealing with the secret aerosols rooms >(SARs) operated illegally in Philadelphia area, Newark (DE), Hampton >and Williamsburg (VA) and other places. Highly volatile aerosols with >and without bacterial content cause dry cough, airways a... > >Full text was at: >http://buyit.philly.com/findit/search/results.jsp?catId=krd_philenqda... > > >This was a new on-line ad placed in Philadelphia Inquirer and >Philadelphia Daily News on www.philly.com (see full text below) >It was about the secret aerosols rooms in US. One could find it by >searching "secret", say, in the ad section of philly.com. > >Democracy can not function effectively without the informed public. As >a former NASA Langley scientist working in the area of nanotechnology >and nanoscale particles, I have been recently exposed to the >establishment of secret gas-aerosol rooms inside of United States, at >least in the Mid-Atlantic region (from Philadelphia to Virginia). > >First, the highly irritant aerosols have surfaced at the NASA Langley >Research Center in several safety accidents. Investigations were >blocked, probably, because of lack of Congressional approval for such >financially-lucrative research at NASA. Later, these aerosols had been >encountered outside of NASA in Virginia, Delaware and Pennsylvania >. >This points out to yet another proliferation of originally-sensitive >technologies into domestic American life to hurt and harass people >without a proper oversight and much control. This amounts to torture, >extra-judicial prosecution and authoritarian intimidation tactics. The >use of such irritants and the operations of the secret gas-aerosol >rooms are gross violations of human and constitutional rights of >American citizens and various domestic and international laws. > >-------------------Full text of an ad from >philly.com-------------------------- > TORTURE IN USA: Secret Aerosol Rooms > >US Scientist needs legal help dealing with the secret aerosols rooms >(SARs) operated illegally in Philadelphia area, Newark (DE), Hampton >and Williamsburg (VA). Highly volatile aerosols with and without >bacterial content cause dry cough, airways and eyes irritation, chest >pain and inflammation. FBI and Homeland Security associates are likely >operators of SARs, while collaborators may be hotel staff and >landlords, who get financial/material or other incentives. US citizens >and kids are victims. Article: 225901 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> Subject: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? Message-ID: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 19:49:02 -0500 I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know where to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif Pretty much any part of this map can be customized from the start and end point of the radials how many degrees apart each one is, having multiple sets of radials, such as a set every 1 degree from 97 to 100 miles out with an other set from 5 to 200 miles every 15 degrees. Any number of sets of any length can be done. As well as circles of any size. All very easy, just supply the center lat long. I can also print the map any size up to 42" wide/high. I've never printed had any paper that big on this printer but I do know it will take paper that big. I would have got a 36" wide printer but it was too slow, and this one is faster. With the software I am developing creating the map is very easy but obviously printing it isn't cheap. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, >from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com Article: 225902 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jerry Martes" References: <1151443155.920698.127440@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Voip in Amateur Radio,Voip Updated Howto, Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 01:07:00 GMT "Jerry Martes" wrote in message news:j6kog.4635$uo.4188@trnddc07... > > wrote in message > news:1151443155.920698.127440@y41g2000cwy.googlegroups.com... >> >> How this is possible, what is the standard, what systems are used, how >> cost.. >> >> http://flying-rugs.com/voip/VoIP-HOWTO.html >> > > Try google -- Skype -- It cost no $$ > > Try google -- Wikipedia -- search POIP Or VOIP > > Article: 225903 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:51:57 -0500 Ben Jackson wrote: > On 2006-06-28, Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> wrote: > >>I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know >>where to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... >>http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif > > > I'm sure if you started charging for those you'd be hearing from > Delorme... I'm sure I would too, that's why I am trying to contact them to see what they have to say first. I may just print up one for me and a few for some friends for the cost of using the printer and not sell them at all but if it is something a lot of people would find useful and it can be done for a reasonable price, then I will try to see if I can sell them. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, >from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com Article: 225904 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:15:55 -0500 Message-ID: <44a2112f$0$16365$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Mike Coslo" wrote in message news:saKdnYeE7-tCYTzZnZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@adelphia.com... > Looking at the thing, I suspect that it is an OCF dipole. It isn't very > clear, but since they have a "L1" and an "L2", that gives us one clue. > Most center fed dipoles don't need an L1 and L2, because they assume > center fed, inherently 2 equal sides. Notice that they also say "this is > not a kit". That is a disclaimer that they put on their other OCF > antennas. Finally that 135 foot total length is typical of an OCF dipole. OCF = off center fed? i suspect the sides are equal in length. L1 and L2 are just designations used in drawings to denote an element of some length. Buxcomm sells a Windom too. > > Dis ting is quackin' like a big ol' OCF duck! > > And as such it should be a serviceable antenna. > > Funny that some people are dissing BuxComm on technical matters in this > case............ ;^) well the coax feed kind of sucks. Gravity > > - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 225905 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> References: <1151196343.440223.242020@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:47:18 GMT On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 23:52:02 -0400, Mike Coslo wrote: >Looking at the thing, I suspect that it is an OCF dipole. It isn't very >clear, but since they have a "L1" and an "L2", that gives us one clue. >Most center fed dipoles don't need an L1 and L2, because they assume >center fed, inherently 2 equal sides. Notice that they also say "this is >not a kit". That is a disclaimer that they put on their other OCF >antennas. Finally that 135 foot total length is typical of an OCF dipole. > > Dis ting is quackin' like a big ol' OCF duck! > > And as such it should be a serviceable antenna. > > Funny that some people are dissing BuxComm on technical matters in this >case............ ;^) > Mike, we (you and I both) aren't sure of the detail, and that in itself speaks heaps for the product information. Whilst you have drawn a clue that the unspecified L1 and L2 suggest that they are unequal, I drew a clue from the description of a component as "centre insulator with eyehook", and if that product detail is accurate (and we take the ordinary meaning of the word centre to be a point that is equidistant from the extremities) then it suggests centre fed. I still think on balance of the published info, it is represented as an "all-band dipole" on "80 through 10 meters" and appears to be a 135' centre fed dipole with a balun (of unknown type) and recommended RG8/X feedline. Such a configuration will be likely to have high system losses on at least some of the bands with practical lengths of feedline as discussed earlier in the thread by several people. Owen -- Article: 225906 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank Alforo" Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:55:26 -0700 Message-ID: <12a46fctai8ge4@corp.supernews.com> References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Dan Andersson wrote: > ( Why the F**K do you touch a coil in tour tuner whilst transmitting!? ) > Do you put your finger in your cars cooling fan too? I reached over to adjust the capacitor not realizing that the set screw that fixes the capacitor knob onto the capacitor shaft stuck up beyond the surface of the knob shaft. My finger reached over and touched the end of the screw as I keyed down. My free hand was not grabbing a ground wire. I was sitting in an upholstered chair which was on a rug which was on a wood floor. And no, I do not put my finger in my car's cooling fan. Frank A. Article: 225907 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Brian Howie Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:46:41 +0100 Message-ID: References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> In message <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11>, Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> writes >I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know >where to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... >http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif > >Pretty much any part of this map can be customized from the start and >end point of the radials how many degrees apart each one is, having >multiple sets of radials, such as a set every 1 degree from 97 to 100 >miles out with an other set from 5 to 200 miles every 15 degrees. Any >number of sets of any length can be done. As well as circles of any >size. All very easy, just supply the center lat long. I can also print >the map any size up to 42" wide/high. I've never printed had any paper >that big on this printer but I do know it will take paper that big. I >would have got a 36" wide printer but it was too slow, and this one is >faster. With the software I am developing creating the map is very >easy but obviously printing it isn't cheap. There's a free utillity called Pizza that does something like this. What I like about it is , you can import your antenna polar diagram from NEC etc and overlay that as well as the compass bearing. OK it's just a line drawing map , but good enough for most purposes. http://tonnesoftware.com/pizza.html 73 Brian GM4DIJ -- Brian Howie Article: 225908 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:19:06 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: <38e86$44a26625$d06640f9$7459@FUSE.NET> Dee, I guess you need to get out more and make some friends. These people are all around. Dee Flint wrote: > Not a very good attempt at trolling. I know absolutely no one like the > people you describe. > > "J. D. B." wrote in message > news:1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET... >> I know what you mean about Elmering. Many of the new hams had to Elmer the >> old CW only hams who had no idea how to operate a computer or even use all >> the great new digital modes. Some of the dinos had trouble trying to >> figure out the solid state rigs. They kept looking around for things to >> tune like it was some boat anchor tube rig - LOL!!! >> > > Everyone operated solid state and semi-solid state rigs with no problems. > All knew how to operate the computers. > >> It's amazing how the dinos can operate a key, but they can't get the hang >> of a mouse. We eventually had to give up. Can't teach the old dogs new >> tricks so the younger and newer hams used the digital modes and the old >> dinos stuck to their CW. >> > > Not at our site. It's the older hams that have the expertise in connecting > the computers to the radios. > >> Although the CW types were amazed how PSK31 could be copied even when you >> could not hear the other station. They admitted that you can't copy CW if >> you cannot hear it. >> >> I think we made a lot of progress on FD. Finally the dinos admitted that >> there are modes that are better and more capable than CW. >> > > Any really experienced ham knows that each and every mode has conditions > under which it is "the best". Ever try to work PSK when the auroras are > running wild? Digital won't get through but CW will and occasionally even > voice will get through even though all the digital modes fail. > > You must have a very weird club. > >> One old guy even said we should give up on the CW testing and test new >> hams how to use a computer and the new digital modes and that was more >> relevant for today's ham radio. >> > > I doubt it. Computers are nice (I use one all the time) but they are not > one of the basics. > > Dee D. Flint, N8UZE > > Article: 225909 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jeff Dieterle" References: <4KmdneWZAf6P0TzZnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@comcast.com> Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:18:35 -0500 Message-ID: The tower will be 350ft from my house's service entrance ground. After getting you-all's feedback I make sure all the rebar in the tower base is electrically connected and the rebar is attached to a perimeter ground system with a rod at each leg. I'm also researching what type of lighting protecting devices I will install on the coax, this may attach to my service entrance ground. But I can't see the need to connect the tower grounding system to my service entrance ground when it's 350ft away. Was meeting the insurance requirements part of a spec. written in the policy regarding residential towers ? What section of the NEC deals with tower grounding ? "Dave" wrote in message news:4KmdneWZAf6P0TzZnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@comcast.com... > Jeff Dieterle wrote: > >> I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf >> antenna with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower >> will be set in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad >> 5/8"x8ft ground rod and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg >> sufficient. >> I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting >> strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my >> computers and Directv receivers. > > Check with your local building inspector. The National Electrical Code and > your local zoning have requirements for proper grounding. > > Basically, the ground at your home is the ground rod at the service panel > for your electrical service. > > When I installed my last tower each leg had to be connected to an 8 foot > ground rod with #6 AWG. Each of the ground rods had to be interconnected. > And, the total connection, towers and rods, connected to the service > entrance ground by #6 AWG run EXTERNAL to the house. [Keep current OUTSIDE > the house]. This met insurance requirements. But, as mentioned in another > response, it does little for protection from a nearby or direct lightning > strike to your radio equipment. > Article: 225910 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:40:54 -0500 Message-ID: <12a51n7av41ct36@corp.supernews.com> References: <4KmdneWZAf6P0TzZnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@comcast.com> Jeff; Some years ago I destroyed a log of expensive ($1,000 each) IBM computer boards because I failed to install grounding devices at the exit from one building and the entrance of another building when I installed remote terminals for the company computer. There was a significant voltage difference between the two buildings even though they were only twenty feet apart and both were well grounded by themselves. I still had to install a bonding wire between them. You will encounter the same situation between your tower and shack. A few feet of copper is cheap insurance. Three hundred fifty feet will generate significant voltage that may or may not cause you a problem. Dave WD9BDZ Jeff Dieterle wrote: > The tower will be 350ft from my house's service entrance ground. After > getting you-all's feedback I make sure all the rebar in the tower base is > electrically connected and the rebar is attached to a perimeter ground > system with a rod at each leg. I'm also researching what type of lighting > protecting devices I will install on the coax, this may attach to my service > entrance ground. > > But I can't see the need to connect the tower grounding system to my service > entrance ground when it's 350ft away. Was meeting the insurance requirements > part of a spec. written in the policy regarding residential towers ? What > section of the NEC deals with tower grounding ? > > > > "Dave" wrote in message > news:4KmdneWZAf6P0TzZnZ2dnUVZ_oOdnZ2d@comcast.com... > >>Jeff Dieterle wrote: >> >> >>>I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf >>>antenna with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower >>>will be set in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad >>>5/8"x8ft ground rod and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg >>>sufficient. >>>I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting >>>strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my >>>computers and Directv receivers. >> >>Check with your local building inspector. The National Electrical Code and >>your local zoning have requirements for proper grounding. >> >>Basically, the ground at your home is the ground rod at the service panel >>for your electrical service. >> >>When I installed my last tower each leg had to be connected to an 8 foot >>ground rod with #6 AWG. Each of the ground rods had to be interconnected. >>And, the total connection, towers and rods, connected to the service >>entrance ground by #6 AWG run EXTERNAL to the house. [Keep current OUTSIDE >>the house]. This met insurance requirements. But, as mentioned in another >>response, it does little for protection from a nearby or direct lightning >>strike to your radio equipment. >> > > > Article: 225911 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:27:12 -0400 Message-ID: <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> gravity wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:Sfdmg.153105$F_3.132648@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> Gene Fuller wrote: >>> How do you know there is no corona discharge? >> Because under passive fairweather conditions, corona >> requires 13 magnitudes more current than is available >> in nature. Please see my other posting. >> >> And just a comment on your seeming innocent question >> above. You seem to be asking me to prove that there >> is no corona discharge when proving a negative is >> impossible. The onus of proof is upon the one(s) who >> assert(s) the positive position. >> >> W8JI asserted that there is a corona discharge and >> you agreed with him. Therefore, the onus of proof >> is upon you. Please prove that corona can exist >> on a receiving antenna under passive fairweather >> conditions. >> >> People are free to assert negatives at any time >> without any proof. For instance, if I assert that >> you cannot dunk a basketball, my assertion will >> remain true until you prove that you can dunk >> a basketball. > > you can restate most negatives as positives. an example of this is a > logical statement, in which case the contrapositive is always true. if P, > then Q. if not Q, then not P. Afraid you have this wrong, gravity. Consider: P=today is my birthday Q=I will receive a present If (today is my birthday) then (I will receive a present). If (I will receive a present) then MAYBE today is my birthday and MAYBE it is not. 73, Chuck another example is Demorgan's theorem in set > theory and electronics. > > if you say that general relativity is wrong, the burden is on you to prove > otherwise. > > if the corona discharge theory is held by 90% of physicists and engineers, > then anyone with a charged particle theory (a minority viewpoint) must do > experimental verification or formulate a theoretical model. > > in this case, i think that both Cecil and others should cite peer reviewed > articles. > > Gravity > > ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225912 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:49:07 -0400 Message-ID: <1151505676_59209@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > chuck wrote: >> If (I will receive a present) then MAYBE today is my birthday and >> MAYBE it is not. > > Expanding: > > "If I receive a present today, then today is my birthday." > > Assuming no present is received today, that statement is > true by definition. :-) Sorry, Cecil. I'm not following you on that. Whether the statement P implies Q is true has nothing to do with whether P is true. My point was that P implies Q does NOT mean if ~Q then not ~P. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225913 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:25:45 -0400 Message-ID: <1151507871_59233@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <1151505676_59209@sp6iad.superfeed.net> chuck wrote: > My point was that P implies Q does NOT mean if ~Q then not ~P. > Well, I screwed up again. Of course it does. Mixed up converse and contrapositive and sorry for the diversion. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225914 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jimmie D" References: Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:28:51 -0400 "Bob" wrote in message news:Fpbog.29312$VE1.25827@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > What you described will do little for lightning protection except give you > a false sense of security. Surviving a direct hit requires much more > grounding and proper treatment and routing of all cables into the house. I > would highly recommend spending $20 on PolyPhaser’s book of info or at > least reading the tech notes on their web site. > Bob > > > Jeff Dieterle wrote: >> I'm installing a 60ft self-supporting tower. It will have a vhf/uhf >> antenna with rotator and a couple of satellite dishes on it. The tower >> will be set in a concrete apprx. 4'x4'x4'. Is driving a copper clad >> 5/8"x8ft ground rod and attaching a #6cu ground wire to the tower leg >> sufficient. >> I live in a heavily wooded area and have lost several modems to lighting >> strikes. Now when it looks like thunder 2 states away I unplug them on my >> computers and Directv receivers. The Polyphaser book was the main source of data used by the company I work to redo the grouding at many of its sites. Most sites that were being knocked off the air nearly every time a storm came through have never had such an outage since the new grounding was installed. $20 bucks well spent. Installing the new grounds will cost a lot more. One of the big impovements was to use low inductance braided cable run all the way from the air terminals at the top of the towers to the ground rods/system. Prior to this the tower was grounded by a cable connecting the base of the tower to the ground system. Much more was done which included grounding coax and and control cables where they entered the building. This was done prior to the modification but there was now a much larger emphasis on LOW INDUCTANCE connections. Typical change made. Coax shields were attached to ground at the point they enter the building prior to the mod. This connection is still there but made through copper straps instead of cables and the coax is also grounded just before it makes a 90 degree bend to leave the tower and enter the building. Going from several lighting related outages a year to none in several years is a big improvement. Article: 225915 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J. Mc Laughlin" Subject: Re: low power FM TX and multiple antennas? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:29:01 -0400 Message-ID: <12a5bfv2thkhr92@corp.supernews.com> References: <1151335477.317846.142060@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Dear MRW: Do not do what you are proposing - assuming that I understand what you are proposing. It sounds as if you propose to connect in parallel, near the transmitter, two transmission lines with each transmission line running to one bay of a two bay antenna. You are not too clear about what you propose. It is very difficult to have two transmission lines that are many wavelengths long (as expected) that are so equal (including the termination impedance) as to have the phases of the two signals at the antennas be equal (as required by the normal two bay antenna). It is possible to maintain close phase equality with short pieces of coax that are near the antennas. Tell us more about what you wish to do. Mac "MRW" wrote in message news:1151335477.317846.142060@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Greetings. > > If we are using one low power FM transmitter and we want to use a 2-bay > FM antenna configuration, will using a power splitter at the > transmitter output be sufficient? > > The FM TX utilizes a type N connection to the FM antennas. .... So if I > split the power output and just have two outputs to handle each of the > two antennas, then that would work right? > > What other considerations should I have in mind? Do I need to worry > about phasing issues? > > Thanks! > Article: 225916 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <1151505676_59209@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <2czog.73746$4L1.65729@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:42:22 GMT chuck wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> "If I receive a present today, then today is my birthday." >> >> Assuming no present is received today, that statement is >> true by definition. :-) > > Sorry, Cecil. I'm not following you on that. Neither do a lot of other people. Here's the truth table for an: (If A then B) = C logical statement A B C True True True True False False False True True False False True If the if-portion of an if/then statement is false, then the entire statement is true, by definition. For instance, this is a logically true statement. If I were ever to play in the NBA, then I would be a superstar. Since the A portion can never be true, the entire statement is true, by definition. In your earlier example, *both of these statements are true* if you didn't receive a present. Only if you actually received a present can one be true and the other false. 1. If I receive a present, it's my birthday. 2. If I receive a present, it's not my birthday. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225917 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:53:15 -0500 Message-ID: <44a2c2b4$0$79617$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "chuck" wrote in message news:1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net... > > you can restate most negatives as positives. an example of this is a > > logical statement, in which case the contrapositive is always true. if P, > > then Q. if not Q, then not P. > > Afraid you have this wrong, gravity. > > Consider: > > P=today is my birthday > Q=I will receive a present > > If (today is my birthday) then (I will > receive a present). > > If (I will receive a present) then MAYBE > today is my birthday and MAYBE it is not. that's not the contrapositive. that's the converse, i think. Gravity Article: 225918 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <8563-44989859-996@storefull-3254.bay.webtv.net> <5Ubmg.226445$Fs1.191002@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <44998188$0$16347$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <1151504361_59017@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:58:21 -0500 Message-ID: <44a2c3e6$0$16444$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> contraposition in logic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrapositive affirmation of the consequent. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afthecon.html Gravity Article: 225919 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jimmie D" References: <120i0qb41ith58e@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: Younger Sister Caught In BathTub With Hidden Cam... 4295 [1/2] Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:36:44 -0400 "Ralph Mowery" wrote in message news:NH8Of.6206$F56.949@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net... > > "Butch Magee" wrote in message > news:120i0qb41ith58e@corp.supernews.com... >> Ron H wrote: >> > I certainly hope everyone in this list is smart enough to NEVER open a > file >> > with the .scr extension! >> > >> > >> > Carry On! >> > K3PID >> > Ron H. >> > >> > >> I don't mind my ignorance showing,...what is an .scr ext? >> >> KF5DE > > The .scr is usually the screen saver program extentions. They are > exicutable programs just like the .exe programs. They can take over the > computer and do almost anything. Good way to pass on a virus or worm or > anything if the programmer does not want to really use them as a screen > saver. > > My daughter opened one on her computer, All the text looked like Klingon after that. Had to reload Windows to fix it but that didnt end the problem. After the reload and I thought all was fixed I discovered all the shortcuts to internet sites took me to the same place, an extremely graphic gay porn site. Good thing my daughter was in school at the time and even more fortunate that I decided to click around on some of her internet shortcuts. The first thing she does when she gets in from school is get on the internet. Article: 225920 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:34:37 -0400 Message-ID: <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > Gene Fuller wrote: >> OK, energy exists, and it is even conserved. >> Do you feel better now? > > That's a good first step. Now where does the energy come > from that supports corona under fairweather conditions? If the antenna is a vertical, ungrounded, uncharged wire, it is a conductor in an electric field (the fairweather field). The free charges in the antenna will move so as to cancel the fairweather field inside the antenna wire. At the top of the antenna, there will be a concentration of negative charge. If a single strand of wire sticks out, that concentration could be sufficient to ionize the air and cause corona. If the corona starting voltage is typically 30 kV/cm radius, then a tiny wire could ionize the air at only 300volts or so for a 0.01 cm radius. http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/corona.htm Corona Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona formation by itself. If a charged particle now strikes the uncharged antenna, free charges will redistribute themselves to maintain no net electric field inside the conductor. The antenna's charge will increase until it exceeds some breakdown threshold. This process seems functionally similar to that due to the existence of the fairweather field, although either could exist independently. The question then seems to be whether the redistribution of charges that occurs when charged particles strike the antenna causes a current in the antenna which is detected by the receiver as noise. I believe this is the question Cecil has been posing. It occurs to me that the current due to charge redistribution could be rather significant if numerous particles are striking the antenna in a short time interval. Even a corona discharge will cause a redistribution of free charges that may show up as a detectable current at the receiver. This would be a different effect from the noise generating property of the corona itself. Any thoughts? Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225921 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Chris W <1qazse4@cox.net> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:27:30 -0500 Backfire Bob wrote: > You created what? Don't think so.... > look up "plagiarize" or theft....... > > Besides that, almost ANYONE can read and use a compass/map. > Why should they BUY yours? Get a grip, of course I will have an agreement with the supplier of the basic map data. Forgive me for thinking that others mind find useful something I find useful. I made this map for me and a few friends. If no one else wants one, then so be it. I just thought, since it is now very easy for me to make more, centered on any point, I would ask. Someone in another forum mentioned that they could tell you where any town with in 100+ miles of them was with in 15 degrees. If you are the same, I doubt you would find this map very useful. As for me, there are over 400 towns with in 100 miles of me and I have no idea where most of them are. With this map I can quickly look and see how far and in what direction places are >from me. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, >from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com Article: 225922 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:02:59 -0400 Message-ID: <1151528106_2169@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> chuck wrote: > > If the corona starting voltage is typically 30 kV/cm radius, then a tiny > wire could ionize the air at only 300volts or so for a 0.01 cm radius. > > http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/corona.htm > Corona As an update, I see that Llewellyn (not W7EL) in 1975 established experimentally that for a point radius of 0.01 cm, a corona will be formed with fields of only 100 V/m. These results differ a bit >from what would be predicted by Paschen's curve. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225923 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Message-ID: References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:12:04 GMT On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:09:55 -0700, Dan Richardson k6mhecom> wrote: >On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:47:18 GMT, Owen Duffy wrote: > >>Mike, we (you and I both) aren't sure of the detail, and that in >>itself speaks heaps for the product information. > >Owen, > >I found some information for this atnenna at > > www.stroobandt.com/antennas/windom/windom.html > >On the design attributed K4BT showing the dimensions to be: > > L1= 13.4 meters (43.965 ft.) >L2= 27.1 meters (88.915 ft.) > Buxcomm's site does list a large number of antennas that are described as "Windom" antennas, but the one that is subject of this thread is not explicitly described in the product information as a Windom of any kind, or as an off-centre fed dipole of any kind. There is an apparent desire on the part of some to construct the case that the subject antenna is a Windom on the basis of: - designation of L1 and L2 on the diagram, although there are no values stated to show that they are unequal; - that elsewhere K4BT has described "coax fed Windoms". There is nothing conclusive on the diagram at http://www.commparts.com/catalog/images/products/8010ABD.gif to suggest that this is a "coax fed Windom", though some infer that is the case because of the L1, L2 designation though not values are shown. I argue that designation of a key component separating L1 and L2 as a "center insulatore and eye hook" has more value than the undimensioned L1, L2 designation. What is becoming clearer, is that on the basis of the information published on the commercial web site for this antenna, the buyer cannot be sure of just what he is getting, much less how well it might perform. Owen -- Article: 225924 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John Ferrell Subject: Re: Antenna tower Grounding Message-ID: References: <1151502757.935048.235820@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:42:40 GMT I have no argument with getting professional advice. I hired pro's to install the lightning rods. They were in agreement that I should always provide a protective ground other than my equipment. They had no problem with the fact that I went through the basement ceiling with a number 6 wire atttaching a cable TV ground to the power panel ground. It was the shortest route. When I lived in a house with copper plumbing the ground system ran all over the houe. On 28 Jun 2006 06:52:37 -0700, w8ji@akorn.net wrote: > >You really need to go to professional sources and not listen to advice >from random internet responses on safety issues. There is so much >folklore and pure bunk that is accepted as fact that it can really get >you in trouble. > >Look at the polyphaser web site and read their techninal notes >carefully. > John Ferrell W8CCW Article: 225925 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:12:04 GMT chuck wrote: > Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona > formation by itself. Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below the corona current? > It occurs to me that the current due to charge redistribution could be > rather significant if numerous particles are striking the antenna in a > short time interval. Maybe aggravated by one element of the dipole being grounded and the other floating? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225926 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:44:14 -0400 Message-ID: <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <6Qymg.71233$4L1.62783@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > chuck wrote: >> Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona >> formation by itself. > > Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below > the corona current? My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't imagine why not. > >> It occurs to me that the current due to charge redistribution could be >> rather significant if numerous particles are striking the antenna in a >> short time interval. > > Maybe aggravated by one element of the dipole being grounded > and the other floating? I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry simple with a single vertical wire. A grounded vertical wire in the fairweather field will acquire a charge and charged particles striking it should not change the charge on it, but they will cause a redistribution. That redistribution doubtless produces a magnetic field as additional charges flow to/from the earth. It's a fascinating problem. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225927 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:08:03 -0700 Message-ID: References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> chuck wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> chuck wrote: >> >>> Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support corona >>> formation by itself. >> >> >> Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below >> the corona current? > > > My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and > leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong > field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't > imagine why not. Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) 73, ac6xg Article: 225928 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:47:48 -0400 Message-ID: <1151541591_3149@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Jim Kelley wrote: > chuck wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> chuck wrote: >>> >>>> Based on that, it would seem the fairweather field can support >>>> corona formation by itself. >>> >>> >>> Even though the fairweather current is 13 magnitudes below >>> the corona current? >> >> >> My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and >> leads to formation of a corona. I imagine with a sufficiently strong >> field, the corona current could be in the pA range. At least I can't >> imagine why not. > > Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of > charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to > accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona > discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) > > 73, ac6xg > OK. So you understand that it is not necessary that a conductor be charged in order for a corona to be formed. It needs only to be placed in a sufficiently strong electric field. But if there is no external field assumed, then the required charge on the wire would be that which will produce the requisite field intensity at some chosen place on the wire. The "pointier" the place you choose, the smaller the necessary net charge. Any charge on the wire will be distributed over a real wire but concentrated where there are sharp points. As the radius of curvature of a "point" on the wire, such as a dust particle stuck to it, approaches zero, the quantity of charge necessary to cause a corona becomes quite small. That's about as close as I can come to realism, Jim. ;-) 73, Chuck Article: 225929 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:50:33 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:O5eog.55057$fb2.4949@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net: > Slow Code wrote: >> Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also >> glad that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, >> when a computer goes down it's like the end of the world. > > While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out > the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? I'll get back to you on that one. I've never been in a situation where I couldn't produce RF and commmunicate. When it finally does happen, I'll let you know if it was flags, mirrors, or smoke signals. sc Article: 225930 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:50:34 GMT hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote in news:1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com: > > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Slow Code wrote: >> > Did a lot of Elmering too, but that's what ham radio is about. Also >> > glad that we weren't outnumbered by appliance operators. With them, >> > when a computer goes down it's like the end of the world. >> >> While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out >> the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > He's not just Slow Code, he's slow everything, especially on the uptake. Yes, but I'm still faster than you. sc Article: 225931 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:05:21 -0400 Message-ID: <1151542645_3157@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:08:03 -0700, Jim Kelley > wrote: > >> Calculate the amount of charge > > Hi Jim, > > 3.3 µC (21 tera-electrons) ±3dB > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Those numbers are classified! Article: 225932 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Henry" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Subject: Re: Anyone here think they would pay for a map like this? Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:18:31 -0400 geesh,just contact US geological service....any office.....I dealt with one in denver and what ever US map you want is available for a few bucks Henry "Chris W" <1qazse4@cox.net> wrote in message news:2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11... >I have created some software to create a radial map to help you know where >to point your antenna. A sample of the map can be seen here... > http://www.thewishzone.com/cdw/hamradio/RadialMap.gif > > Pretty much any part of this map can be customized from the start and end > point of the radials how many degrees apart each one is, having multiple > sets of radials, such as a set every 1 degree from 97 to 100 miles out > with an other set from 5 to 200 miles every 15 degrees. Any number of > sets of any length can be done. As well as circles of any size. All very > easy, just supply the center lat long. I can also print the map any size > up to 42" wide/high. I've never printed had any paper that big on this > printer but I do know it will take paper that big. I would have got a 36" > wide printer but it was too slow, and this one is faster. With the > software I am developing creating the map is very easy but obviously > printing it isn't cheap. > > > > -- > Chris W > KE5GIX > > Gift Giving Made Easy > Get the gifts you want & > give the gifts they want > One stop wish list for any gift, > from anywhere, for any occasion! > http://thewishzone.com Article: 225933 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: Message-ID: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:18:41 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote in >> While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out >> the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? > > I'll get back to you on that one. I've never been in a situation where I > couldn't produce RF and commmunicate. When it finally does happen, I'll > let you know if it was flags, mirrors, or smoke signals. Oh yeah, I forgot, only the SSB portion of a transceiver's electronics ever fails. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225934 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:21:14 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Slow Code wrote: >> >>He's not just Slow Code, he's slow everything, especially on the uptake. > > > > > Yes, but I'm still faster than you. > > sc > > And won't tell you who he is. Chicken Shit seems an appropriate description. Although I'd bet I can find out who it is. I won't bother, but it isn't all that hard if you know the ISP business. And since that's what I do for a living... tom K0TAR Article: 225935 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:24:21 GMT chuck wrote: > My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and > leads to formation of a corona. Yes, but according to the references, fairweather conditions are not a strong enough electric field to cause corona in the absence of some other energy source. > I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry simple > with a single vertical wire. Well, a single vertical wire would have its ground plane grounded so it might also build up a charge between the inner coax conductor and outer conductor from wind-driven charged particles. But wouldn't a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does on other vertical antennas? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225936 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:26:08 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Cheer up Mark, Phonys don't need HF to work DX. References: Message-ID: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Slow Code wrote: > Just call a foreign country on your cell phone. If you ask them to > 'Please QSL', you might have to tell whoever it is you talk to what that > means. > > If they won't QSL, we can use your phone bill as proof of contact, but > it's not as good as a real QSL card because how do we know that you didn't > just babble into someone's answering machine for a minute or two. > > The first DX award no-codes can try for and is easy and cheap to get is > the CAC Award (Called all Continents) and is very similar to the WAC > (Worked all Continents.) If you're really really new to radio, you might > want to start with CAS first. (Called all States) > > > sc Time Warner, huh. Good friends of mine. I get 50 MB/s from them. Article: 225937 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <2TGog.30644$VE1.18256@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:26:06 GMT Jim Kelley wrote: > Here's an exercise that might add some realism. Calculate the amount of > charge a 14 awg 40 meter dipole antenna at 35 feet would have to > accumulate in order to generate a strong enough field to cause a corona > discharge. (Arcing at the feedpoint doesn't count.) And make it #14 solid wire with rounded ends. I suspect the coax connector would arc long before any corona appeared. In fact, corona should be visible at night. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225938 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:31:17 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: > Tom Ring wrote: > >>Slow Code wrote: >> > > >>>sc >> >>Time Warner, huh. Good friends of mine. I get 50 MB/s from them. > > he is just a troll and coward > Yes, but I will find out who he is. Just for fun. Probably an extra that got canned for something or other. ;) tom K0TAR Article: 225939 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: inagaddadavida@webtv.net (Jim) Subject: dipole made of two cb whips? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:21:09 -0400 Message-ID: <10362-44A33915-1280@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> i understand that a monopole antenna is an illusion. the element is reflected by ground or a ground plane or a counterpoise and is effectively a two element set up anyway. so, somebody take me to school on this; what about a ground plane whip such as a cb antenna with another identical whip mounted upside down below it? would the bottom whip appear equal to a ground plane and allow the antenna to radiate as it was intended to? would this work in an application where a decent rf ground cannot be achieved? or where consistent antenna characteristics are needed regardless of location or environment? Article: 225940 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:36:56 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Tom Ring wrote: >> >> >> he is just a troll and coward >> > > Yes, but I will find out who he is. Just for fun. > > Probably an extra that got canned for something or other. ;) > > tom > K0TAR And you are a target too. I don't like anonymous posters. tom K0TAR Article: 225941 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:46:34 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: >> >>And you are a target too. I don't like anonymous posters. > > hardly annymousous kb9rqz is the call all the regulars know that > Why don't you sign who you are then? I don't understand why some people that post like to obfuscate. And I'm a regular, and I can't say I've ever seen your call. You certainly don't make it obvious, which is your right, but don't claim it's out there, because it's not. tom K0TAR Article: 225942 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:56:49 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a34171$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: > > the only way you can say and be telling the turth is if you have > killfilled Wismen who blasts it out 30 or sotime a day my call all my > name with an inane accuscatsation that I am a rapist or child molestor > Never have seen it. So it must be killfiled or on a group I don't look at; I only look at rraa of the groups this is duped to. Never heard of Wismen, whoever that is. tom K0TAR Article: 225943 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:59:13 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: > Tom Ring wrote: > >>an_old_friend wrote: >> >> >>>>And you are a target too. I don't like anonymous posters. >>> >>>hardly annymousous kb9rqz is the call all the regulars know that >>> >> >>Why don't you sign who you are then? > > because I chhosse not to Anyway, it still makes you a target AFAIAC. tom K0TAR Article: 225944 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:09:57 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151550129.297553.21650@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a34485$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: > Tom Ring wrote: > >>an_old_friend wrote: >> > > >>>because I chhosse not to >> >>Anyway, it still makes you a target AFAIAC. > > can't stop from trying to stlak me if you like any more than I can stop > wismen but if can't find my call taged hundreds of my posts then I am > even less worried about than I am Robeson > >>tom >>K0TAR > > I'm not stalking anyone, and when you are stalked on the net, you don't know. If you haven't figured that out yet, you are ignorant. You aren't IDing yourself on this newsgroup. That's all I'm talking about. You are way too worried about hiding. tom K0TAR Article: 225945 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:21:18 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151550129.297553.21650@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a34485$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151551046.446215.93640@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a3472f$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: >>tom >>K0TAR > > indeed given the oddon this NG it reasonably likely you are anybody but > k0tar > > nowtake your lying ass elsewhere > Given the number of posts I've had here, no further comment needed. tom K0TAR Article: 225946 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:23:14 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151550129.297553.21650@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a34485$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151551046.446215.93640@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <44a347a2$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> an_old_friend wrote: > > nowtake your lying ass elsewhere > And with that PLONK! tom K0TAR Article: 225947 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:33:10 -0700 Message-ID: <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> Mike Coslo wrote: > . . . > I don't doubt that someone might come to a different conclusion, but > I think my reasoning is pretty sound. I modeled an equal length version > of this in 4nec, and it just doesn't work very well. OTOH, turn it into > an OCF dipole, and it is a different story. . . How did you possibly determine what the balun input impedance was when terminated with the impedances the antenna presented on the various bands? How did you model the balun? It's almost certainly a "voltage" balun which will force common mode current onto the feedline when terminated with an asymmetrical load. Because of the common mode current, the outside of the feedline must be part of the model. Did you model the antenna with various lengths and orientations of feedlines? I don't believe that a valid model can be made of this type of antenna without knowing and accounting for the major imperfections of the balun, the common mode current it forces, and the feedline length and orientation for the particular installation. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225948 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: dipole made of two cb whips? Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:44:40 -0700 Message-ID: <12a6j5ojjea9q6a@corp.supernews.com> References: <10362-44A33915-1280@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> Jim wrote: > i understand that a monopole antenna is an illusion. Yes and no. An antenna can easily be constructed such that only a monopole radiates significantly. A common example is a ground plane antenna. However, the same amount of current which flows into a monopole must flow somewhere else -- to a ground plane or "counterpoise", to the Earth, down the transmission line, or to another radiating wire for example. So a monopole can't exist in isolation. the element is > reflected by ground or a ground plane or a counterpoise and is > effectively a two element set up anyway. No, an element isn't "reflected". The field from any antenna, monopole or dipole, is reflected by the ground, creating interference with the unreflected field. so, somebody take me to > school on this; what about a ground plane whip such as a cb antenna with > another identical whip mounted upside down below it? This constitutes a vertical dipole, a common antenna type. would the bottom > whip appear equal to a ground plane and allow the antenna to radiate as > it was intended to? No, it wouldn't "appear equal to a ground plane". As for the antenna radiating as it's intended to, how do you intend for it to radiate? would this work in an application where a decent rf > ground cannot be achieved? Sure. A vertical dipole is a very common type of antenna. A google search should bring you a wealth of information. or where consistent antenna characteristics > are needed regardless of location or environment? The location and environment can affect any type of antenna, including this one. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225949 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Backfire Bob" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Subject: Re: Anyone here think this crap isnt a scam? Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:13:45 GMT "Chris W" <1qazse4@cox.net> wrote in message news:TCBog.58318$9c6.48315@dukeread11... > Backfire Bob wrote: > >> You created what? Don't think so.... >> look up "plagiarize" or theft....... >> >> Besides that, almost ANYONE can read and use a compass/map. >> Why should they BUY yours? > > > Get a grip, of course I will have an agreement with the supplier of the > basic map data. Forgive me for thinking that others mind find useful > something I find useful. > Chris W > KE5GIX > Gift Giving Made Easy > Get the gifts you want & > give the gifts they want > One stop wish list for any gift, > from anywhere, for any occasion! > http://theshitzone.com *I* should get a "grip" HAHAHAHA........ You fucking little jerk! you SPAM the hell out of the internet, include your STUPID shitzone site in EVERY post.You will try to rip off every person you "touch" on here and HAM radio. Read this Bozo...... NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND NEEDS YOUR CRAPPY "SERVICE"!!!! NO ONE WANTS YOUR OVERPRICED CRAPOLA. Grow up you fucking 38 year old child.......how can you possibly be so god damn stupid? Take your shit-for-brains scams elsewhere......Turds like you are annoying...... Article: 225950 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil (J. B. Wood) Subject: Re: rf burn Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 07:34:08 -0400 Message-ID: References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> In article , Win wrote: > When I worked in broadcast radio years ago, I was always amazed that > service personnal would climb the 10 kw tower hot to change lights. > They stated they could feel potential between their hands as they > climbed. > > Win, wolz Hello, and was that a shunt-fed AM broadcast tower? You might just get away with a grab at ground level. OTOH, I would think that grabbing onto a live base-insulated type tower would have serious consequences when being fed by a 10 kW transmitter. Just looking at the RF bypass hardware needed at the base to provide for tower lighting (Austin transformer or Collins lighting choke) should be enough to say "keep away" while transmitting. Sincerely, and 73s from N4GG0, John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil Naval Research Laboratory 4555 Overlook Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20375-5337 Article: 225951 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "DrDeath" Subject: Re: get help Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:51:50 -0500 Message-ID: <12a7fmikn6nsi40@corp.supernews.com> References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151550129.297553.21650@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a34485$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151551046.446215.93640@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a347a2$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> "Tom Ring" wrote in message news:44a347a2$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > an_old_friend wrote: > >> >> nowtake your lying ass elsewhere >> > > And with that > > PLONK! > > tom > K0TAR If you plan to killfile him, you will want this list of 15 nyms. He has already infected RRAP and RRCB. Once you respond he will not stop humping your leg. kb9rqz_ars@hotmail.com kb9rqz@yahoo.com konstans@hotmail.com kb9rqz__ars@hotmail.com a_old_friends@yahoo.com kb9rqz___ars@hotmail.com kb9rqz@hotmail.com upperpenarmyguy@yahoo.com kb9rqz-ars@hotmail.com kb9rqz_ars@yahoo.com kb9rqz@markmorgan.com kb9rqz@markmorgan.net kb9rqz@amsat.org kb9rqz--ars@hotmail.com kb9rqz-MCM@hotmail.com Article: 225952 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: gwatts Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 12:53:34 GMT Tom Ring wrote: > > And you are a target too. Your use of the word 'target' is interesting. I'll follow that by quoting you, > To begin with this is an antenna page, but we'll ignore that for now. Then you said > I don't like anonymous posters. I don't like self-appointed net police but like anonymous posters I have to tolerate them. The Supreme Court has ruled that identifying oneself is not a requirement for freedom of speech, so being an anonymous poster is legal. 'Targeting' them is tantamount to stalking, which is not legal, Mr. Net Cop. Galen Watts, W8LNA Article: 225953 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 10:32:17 -0400 Message-ID: <1151591066_6403@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Cecil Moore wrote: > chuck wrote: >> My understanding is that a strong electric field ionizes the air and >> leads to formation of a corona. > > Yes, but according to the references, fairweather conditions are > not a strong enough electric field to cause corona in the absence > of some other energy source. > That is probably based on the notion that below a field strength of ~300 volts/meter (Paschen), voltage breakdown in air is not possible. Fairweather fields tend to typically be weaker than that although 200 volts/meter is sometimes observed. But Paschen's number assumes parallel plates, and not sharp electrodes, and Llewellyn demonstrated sharp electrode breakdown at 100 volts/meter, a strength often found in fairweather fields. There are many other factors that influence electrical breakdown, such as ionization of air by naturally occurring radioactivity (e.g., radon, which would be another energy source but one which is usually present near the earth), atmospheric pressure, etc. So yes or no? Paschen's law says no. But Jonassen admits that Paschen's law has never been tested for non-parallel electrodes of really small dimensions and he found it doesn't hold for small spherical electrodes at separations of a few cm. Llewellyn reported measurements below the predicted Paschen minimum for sharp electrodes. >> I can't comment on that, Cecil. I was trying to keep the geometry >> simple with a single vertical wire. > > Well, a single vertical wire would have its ground plane grounded > so it might also build up a charge between the inner coax conductor > and outer conductor from wind-driven charged particles. I would think so. And the coax looks like a capacitor to DC, FWIW. But wouldn't > a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does > on other vertical antennas? It would reduce the possibility of corona if it has a greater radius of curvature than whatever it replaced. 73, Chuck ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225954 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types References: <_tYmg.2350$Yk.1437@trnddc06> <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <1151591066_6403@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Message-ID: <70Sog.110009$H71.56497@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:06:43 GMT chuck wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> But wouldn't >> a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does >> on other vertical antennas? > > It would reduce the possibility of corona if it has a greater radius of > curvature than whatever it replaced. So it would seem possible to have arcing at the coax connector without having corona on the antenna. -- 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225955 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:06:52 -0700 Message-ID: References: <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> Richard Clark wrote: > On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:08:03 -0700, Jim Kelley > wrote: > > >>Calculate the amount of charge > > > Hi Jim, > > 3.3 µC (21 tera-electrons) ±3dB > > 73's > Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, :-) Now bracket the high side. jk Article: 225956 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 13:28:04 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: get help References: <44a33a40$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548092.875921.224440@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33b75$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <44a33cc8$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151548874.237362.288280@x69g2000cwx.googlegroups.com> <44a33f0a$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151549487.504902.226840@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a34201$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151550129.297553.21650@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a34485$0$6150$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <1151551046.446215.93640@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44a347a2$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <12a7fmikn6nsi40@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <44a41bb4$0$6145$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> DrDeath wrote: > "Tom Ring" wrote in message > news:44a347a2$0$1012$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net... > >>an_old_friend wrote: >> >> >>>nowtake your lying ass elsewhere >>> >> >>And with that >> >>PLONK! >> >>tom >>K0TAR > > > If you plan to killfile him, you will want this list of 15 nyms. He has > already infected RRAP and RRCB. Once you respond he will not stop humping > your leg. > kb9rqz_ars@hotmail.com > kb9rqz@yahoo.com > konstans@hotmail.com > kb9rqz__ars@hotmail.com > a_old_friends@yahoo.com > kb9rqz___ars@hotmail.com > kb9rqz@hotmail.com > upperpenarmyguy@yahoo.com > kb9rqz-ars@hotmail.com > kb9rqz_ars@yahoo.com > kb9rqz@markmorgan.com > kb9rqz@markmorgan.net > kb9rqz@amsat.org > kb9rqz--ars@hotmail.com > kb9rqz-MCM@hotmail.com > > Thanks. tom K0TAR Article: 225957 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Noise level between two ant types From: chuck Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:40:24 -0400 Message-ID: <1151605946_9353@sp6iad.superfeed.net> References: <3Uxng.250469$Fs1.65982@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <02hog.66497$mF2.34865@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <1151522804_1387@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <81Eog.30606$VE1.22586@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1151537784_2697@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <1151591066_6403@sp6iad.superfeed.net> <70Sog.110009$H71.56497@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > chuck wrote: >> Cecil Moore wrote: >>> But wouldn't >>> a ball on top reduce the possibility of corona just like it does >>> on other vertical antennas? >> >> It would reduce the possibility of corona if it has a greater radius >> of curvature than whatever it replaced. > > So it would seem possible to have arcing at the coax > connector without having corona on the antenna. Sure. They're not mutually exclusive events. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Article: 225958 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: helmsman Subject: Diamond BB7V Vertical Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:48:48 -0400 Message-ID: Diamond BB7V Vertical. Anyone using it, do you like it, was it worth the money, how would you rate it 1 to 10, nowing what you know now would you buy it again ? Thanks for your time :') Article: 225959 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: dipole made of two cb whips? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:44:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <10362-44A33915-1280@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> <12a6j5ojjea9q6a@corp.supernews.com> Jim and Roy, While this sounds like I am contradicting Roy, I believe I am simply stating things in a slightly different way. The type of mental model I express here has worked well for me over the years, in discussions with other professionals, in understanding the various antennas. Roy says Yes and No in places here, but I would use different Yes's and No's in this case, as follows: > Jim wrote: > > i understand that a monopole antenna is an illusion. > Roy: > Yes and no. An antenna can easily be constructed such that only a > monopole radiates significantly. A common example is a ground plane > antenna. However, the same amount of current which flows into a monopole > must flow somewhere else -- to a ground plane or "counterpoise", to the > Earth, down the transmission line, or to another radiating wire for > example. So a monopole can't exist in isolation. While what Roy says is correct (there should rarely be any doubt) , I believe Jim's interpretation is not in-valid and can be a very good "mental model" of antennas.. The monopole needs something to be its "other half" as Jim says. In a ground plane antenna, the "plane" is the other half. In a dipole (vertical or otherwise) the bottom half is the "other half". Any and every circuit needs two connections to have a complete circuit. Sometimes, with antennas, the "other half" is not obvious to everyone, but it will always be there and Roy's words; "...the same amount of current which flows into a monopole must flow somewhere else .." addresses this "other half" issue. I believe Jims words are sufficently close to Roy's words to be equivalent. So, I would say, Yes. There ain't no such thing as a monopole, you just don't realize what is acting as the other half (If you think you have one). I believe this basic concept can be applied to almost every antenna configuration to help understand, to a great extent, what is "going on" Jim: > the element is > > reflected by ground or a ground plane or a counterpoise and is > > effectively a two element set up anyway. > Roy: > No, an element isn't "reflected". The field from any antenna, monopole > or dipole, is reflected by the ground, creating interference with the > unreflected field. Actyually I'd say Yes. I believe the following words describe precisely the same thing Roy said. In electromagnetic field theory studies, there is something called the "Method of Mirrors". This is a way to calculate a field when there is a conducting plane nearby. To model the conducting plane is mathematically very complex. You actually can model the conducting plane as a mirror which has produced a "reflection" of the element in it. This reflection, because of the properties of the field, has the opposite sign (polarity) and is mathematically handled as though it was another element in the place conducting plane. . It turns out that with this new model, it is much easier to do the math to get the total field. (NO I can't do it any more...don't actually think I was doing it the first time! bad instructor). So, I would say that it is a pretty good analogy to say that the ground plane "has the effect of" reflecting the monopole and therefore providing the "other half". > > so, somebody take me to > > school on this; what about a ground plane whip such as a cb antenna with > > another identical whip mounted upside down below it? > > This constitutes a vertical dipole, a common antenna type. You have, ideed described a dipole turned vertical...and I feel you have identified a very important concept in antennas. Just about every antenna can be understood better if you start out by finding the "dipole" hidden within. beams, G5RVs end-fire arrays, broasdide arras, J-Antennas, colinears... > would the bottom > > whip appear equal to a ground plane and allow the antenna to radiate as > > it was intended to? > > No, it wouldn't "appear equal to a ground plane". As for the antenna > radiating as it's intended to, how do you intend for it to radiate? Per my above, I'd say that Jim's description is a relatively good model to have in your head. If the groundplane "acts" similar to a mirror giving rise to the equivalent of the "other half" of the dipole, and that result is equivalent to another "half" mounted below it, I feel this only leaves us to debate the real meaning of Jim's words "...appear equal to ...". I think that is a pretty good way to think about it. > would this work in an application where a decent rf > > ground cannot be achieved? > > Sure. A vertical dipole is a very common type of antenna. A google > search should bring you a wealth of information. Ditto on what Roy said, plus: The antenna commonly called a "J-Pole" is "the same thing" as a half wave dipole, but stood on end, vertically...EXCEPT it is fed power at its bottom end not in the middle. As an asside...I'll also add that this concept of a "decent RF ground" is something that many seem to believe is some sort of an absolute thing. Comments labout wanting to get a wire to a ground rod as being the solution to all things...the hunt for the "good RF ground". I have a tongue-in-cheek twist on an old saying: "A ground's a ground, the world around." An RF ground is somwhat of a myth, even on a solid sheet of copper, but some think there is this absolute GROUND that all things must be connected to in order for things to work correctly, or solve problems. Of course I know that, as Jim states, that the bottom half of this vertical dipole is the "other half" of the antenna and might be considered a "ground" but is is nothing more than the other half of the antenna and hads, and needs, absolutely no relation a zerp potential reference, whatever that is. > or where consistent antenna characteristics > > are needed regardless of location or environment? > > The location and environment can affect any type of antenna, including > this one. Here, Jim is getting into wording that may mean different things to differet people, but what Roy says is fact. Antennas carry RF and things like capacitance to nearby objects and currents induced into nearby conductors; always, always can have an effect on an antenna regardless of it's particulat construction. There will be different effects for different types of antennas, but this is all dependent on the antenna and the place it is hung. There may be some forms of antenna that are less susceptable to nearby objects in certain places relative to the antenna, but this is all random--that is to say; it depends on the antenna and your back yard. 73, Steve, K9DCI Article: 225960 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: dipole made of two cb whips? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:35:36 -0700 Message-ID: <12a8oudivc16i32@corp.supernews.com> References: <10362-44A33915-1280@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> <12a6j5ojjea9q6a@corp.supernews.com> Steve N. wrote: > . . . > While what Roy says is correct (there should rarely be any doubt) , I > believe Jim's interpretation is not in-valid and can be a very good "mental > model" of antennas.. The monopole needs something to be its "other half" as > Jim says. In a ground plane antenna, the "plane" is the other half. In a > dipole (vertical or otherwise) the bottom half is the "other half". Any and > every circuit needs two connections to have a complete circuit. Sometimes, > with antennas, the "other half" is not obvious to everyone, but it will > always be there and Roy's words; "...the same amount of current which flows > into a monopole must flow somewhere else .." addresses this "other half" > issue. I believe Jims words are sufficently close to Roy's words to be > equivalent. So, I would say, Yes. There ain't no such thing as a monopole, > you just don't realize what is acting as the other half (If you think you > have one). > I believe this basic concept can be applied to almost every antenna > configuration to help understand, to a great extent, what is "going on" I agree with that. > > Jim: >> the element is >>> reflected by ground or a ground plane or a counterpoise and is >>> effectively a two element set up anyway. >> Roy: >> No, an element isn't "reflected". The field from any antenna, monopole >> or dipole, is reflected by the ground, creating interference with the >> unreflected field. > > Actyually I'd say Yes. I believe the following words describe precisely the > same thing Roy said. > In electromagnetic field theory studies, there is something called the > "Method of Mirrors". This is a way to calculate a field when there is a > conducting plane nearby. To model the conducting plane is mathematically > very complex. You actually can model the conducting plane as a mirror which > has produced a "reflection" of the element in it. This reflection, because > of the properties of the field, has the opposite sign (polarity) and is > mathematically handled as though it was another element in the place > conducting plane. . It turns out that with this new model, it is much > easier to do the math to get the total field. (NO I can't do it any > more...don't actually think I was doing it the first time! bad instructor). > So, I would say that it is a pretty good analogy to say that the ground > plane "has the effect of" reflecting the monopole and therefore providing > the "other half". The reasons I objected to the concept are twofold. First, there's some ambiguity in what constitutes the "ground plane" which does the "reflecting". The "ground plane" of a ground plane antenna reflects nothing except very high angle radiation. So it doesn't act as a mirror in any sense. Secondly, the Earth does reflect the field, but the result isn't anything like a mirror. Only a perfect ground ends up creating the same shaped field from a grounded vertical as a free space dipole. Real ground creates a field shape which is very significantly different. So the model of a mirror-like ground isn't at all a good one; its use leads to incorrect conclusions so I don't feel it should be used unless the user clearly understands that the conditions under which it's valid aren't ones you can achieve very well at all -- except with salt water or with a very large (several wavelength radius) conducting plane perhaps at UHF. >> so, somebody take me to >>> school on this; what about a ground plane whip such as a cb antenna with >>> another identical whip mounted upside down below it? >> This constitutes a vertical dipole, a common antenna type. > > You have, ideed described a dipole turned vertical...and I feel you have > identified a very important concept in antennas. Just about every antenna > can be understood better if you start out by finding the "dipole" hidden > within. beams, G5RVs end-fire arrays, broasdide arras, J-Antennas, > colinears... > > >> would the bottom >>> whip appear equal to a ground plane and allow the antenna to radiate as >>> it was intended to? >> No, it wouldn't "appear equal to a ground plane". As for the antenna >> radiating as it's intended to, how do you intend for it to radiate? > > Per my above, I'd say that Jim's description is a relatively good model > to have in your head. If the groundplane "acts" similar to a mirror giving > rise to the equivalent of the "other half" of the dipole, and that result is > equivalent to another "half" mounted below it, I feel this only leaves us to > debate the real meaning of Jim's words "...appear equal to ...". I think > that is a pretty good way to think about it. Well, no, a typical "ground plane" doesn't act like a mirror, as I explained above. And even the Earth does a very poor job of acting like one. At best, it's a dirty mirror which isn't uniformly dirty. The only common exception is salt water, which does a fair job. >> would this work in an application where a decent rf >>> ground cannot be achieved? >> Sure. A vertical dipole is a very common type of antenna. A google >> search should bring you a wealth of information. > > Ditto on what Roy said, plus: The antenna commonly called a "J-Pole" is > "the same thing" as a half wave dipole, but stood on end, > vertically...EXCEPT it is fed power at its bottom end not in the middle. > > As an asside...I'll also add that this concept of a "decent RF ground" > is something that many seem to believe is some sort of an absolute thing. > Comments labout wanting to get a wire to a ground rod as being the solution > to all things...the hunt for the "good RF ground". I have a tongue-in-cheek > twist on an old saying: "A ground's a ground, the world around." An RF > ground is somwhat of a myth, even on a solid sheet of copper, but some think > there is this absolute GROUND that all things must be connected to in order > for things to work correctly, or solve problems. Of course I know that, as > Jim states, that the bottom half of this vertical dipole is the "other half" > of the antenna and might be considered a "ground" but is is nothing more > than the other half of the antenna and hads, and needs, absolutely no > relation a zerp potential reference, whatever that is. Yes, "ground" is a concept which is almost universally misunderstood and misused. Calling something "ground" seemingly imparts magical properties to it. Very often, it gets in the way of understanding how antennas work, and people would be better off forgetting about it. It's not uncommon for an EZNEC user to ask how to model a "ground" or to specify that something is a "ground", meaning some sort of elevated "counterpoise" or "ground plane". I explain that the program doesn't know or care what the user might consider to be "ground" -- all it knows and cares about are conductors and currents. People hoping to understand antennas would be well served by doing the same. > . . . Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225961 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:37:30 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com: > Slow Code wrote: >> Cecil Moore wrote in >>> While you, OTOH, when your hardware fails, simply drag out >>> the signaling flags, mirrors, and smoke signals? >> >> I'll get back to you on that one. I've never been in a situation where >> I couldn't produce RF and commmunicate. When it finally does happen, >> I'll let you know if it was flags, mirrors, or smoke signals. > > Oh yeah, I forgot, only the SSB portion of a transceiver's > electronics ever fails. :-) That's generally when you find out your rig might need repair, when someone reports your audio is distorted or garbled. SC Article: 225962 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow References: <1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Message-ID: <0vZog.127$PE1.21@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:37:32 GMT Tom Ring wrote in news:44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net: > Slow Code wrote: > >>> >>>He's not just Slow Code, he's slow everything, especially on the >>>uptake. >> >> >> >> >> Yes, but I'm still faster than you. >> >> sc >> >> > > And won't tell you who he is. Chicken Shit seems an appropriate > description. > > Although I'd bet I can find out who it is. I won't bother, but it isn't > all that hard if you know the ISP business. And since that's what I do > for a living... > > tom > K0TAR I'm really happy the FCC eliminated the 20 wpm Code requirement so you could get your Extra. sc Article: 225963 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:24:50 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <0vZog.127$PE1.21@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <44a46f53$0$6144$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Slow wrote: > Tom Ring wrote in > news:44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net: > > >>Slow Code wrote: >> >> >>>>He's not just Slow Code, he's slow everything, especially on the >>>>uptake. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Yes, but I'm still faster than you. >>> >>>sc >>> >>> >> >>And won't tell you who he is. Chicken Shit seems an appropriate >>description. >> >>Although I'd bet I can find out who it is. I won't bother, but it isn't >>all that hard if you know the ISP business. And since that's what I do >>for a living... >> >>tom >>K0TAR > > > > I'm really happy the FCC eliminated the 20 wpm Code requirement so you > could get your Extra. > > sc I'm really happy that good programmers let idiots have access to the internet instead of keeping them off like they should be. Of course, I'm not talking about you. tom K0TAR Article: 225964 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:29:42 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1151453637.198126.54600@d56g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> <0vZog.127$PE1.21@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <44a47076$0$6144$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Slow wrote: > Tom Ring wrote in > news:44a3391b$0$1004$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net: > > >>Slow Code wrote: >> >> >>>>He's not just Slow Code, he's slow everything, especially on the >>>>uptake. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Yes, but I'm still faster than you. >>> >>>sc >>> >>> >> >>And won't tell you who he is. Chicken Shit seems an appropriate >>description. >> >>Although I'd bet I can find out who it is. I won't bother, but it isn't >>all that hard if you know the ISP business. And since that's what I do >>for a living... >> >>tom >>K0TAR > > > > I'm really happy the FCC eliminated the 20 wpm Code requirement so you > could get your Extra. > > sc Are you sure I don't know 20? And with that you join another idiot. PLONK! Article: 225965 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:47:30 GMT Slow Code wrote: > That's generally when you find out your rig might need repair, when > someone reports your audio is distorted or garbled. I invariably find out my rig needs repair when the finals blow. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225966 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hamguy1" Subject: icom725 hf power control i need some help with this 1 thanks in advance Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:44:23 +1000 Message-ID: <44a481f6$0$28132$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> hi newsgroups, does anyone off by hand have an icom 725 hf transceiver i need to know which adj inside the radio turns the ssb power etc down as this 1 is to high powerred for this persons power supply, thx in advance david nsw australia . Article: 225967 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brian 2W0BDW" References: <44a481f6$0$28132$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: icom725 hf power control i need some help with this 1 thanks in advance Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:36:17 GMT "hamguy1" wrote in message news:44a481f6$0$28132$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au... > hi newsgroups, does anyone off by hand have an icom 725 hf transceiver i > need to know which adj inside the radio turns the ssb power etc down as > this 1 is to high powerred for this persons power supply, thx in advance > david nsw australia . > IC-725 Rotary concentric knob (outer=power inner=mic) on front panel 10W (ccw) to 100w (cw) manual: http://www.icom.co.jp/manual/external/transceivers/IC-725.pdf or did you mean IC-725A? totally different beasty ;) IC-725A Small rotary control on front panel 5W(ccw) to 100W (cw) manual: http://www.icom.co.jp/manual/external/transceivers/IC-725A.pdf (values given for FM/SSB/cw) Adjustments are covered in the relevent manual. If 5W or 10W is too much for the power supply consider a bigger supply (20A +) Article: 225968 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: icom725 hf power control i need some help with this 1 thanks References: <44a481f6$0$28132$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <7B0pg.110227$H71.72289@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:08:51 GMT hamguy1 wrote: > hi newsgroups, does anyone off by hand have an icom 725 hf transceiver i > need to know which adj inside the radio turns the ssb power etc down as this > 1 is to high powerred for this persons power supply, thx in advance david > nsw australia . I once had one of those. If I remember correctly, there is an RF power pot on the front panel. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225969 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Backfire Bob" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> Subject: Re: Anyone here think this crap isnt a scam? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:27:21 GMT "Walt Davidson" walt@ukgateway.ne wrote in message news:aqr6a25ghn0d1974qtrh7qu9aabm5501t7@4ax.com... > On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:13:45 GMT, "Backfire Bob" > wrote: > >>*I* should get a "grip" HAHAHAHA........ >>You fucking little jerk! you SPAM the hell out of the internet, >>include your STUPID shitzone site in EVERY post.You will try to >>rip off every person you "touch" on here and HAM radio. >>Read this Bozo...... >>NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND NEEDS YOUR CRAPPY "SERVICE"!!!! >>NO ONE WANTS YOUR OVERPRICED CRAPOLA. >>Grow up you fucking 38 year old child.......how can you possibly be so god >>damn stupid? >>Take your shit-for-brains scams elsewhere......Turds like you are >>annoying...... > > The foul-mouthed CBer reveals himself as soon as he opens his mouth. > > 73 de G3NYY > > -- > Walt Davidson Email: walt@ukgateway.net WOW Walt! you sure showed me..you fat old over inflated windbag.... Go back to printing your own DX QSL cards for your wall..you fake. Article: 225970 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 21:47:36 -0700 Message-ID: <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> Mike Coslo wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote: >> Mike Coslo wrote: >> >>> . . . >>> I don't doubt that someone might come to a different conclusion, >>> but I think my reasoning is pretty sound. I modeled an equal length >>> version of this in 4nec, and it just doesn't work very well. OTOH, >>> turn it into an OCF dipole, and it is a different story. . . >> >> >> How did you possibly determine what the balun input impedance was when >> terminated with the impedances the antenna presented on the various >> bands? > > You are correct, I couldn't. But what I got was enough to tell me > that with the two sides of equal length, there wasn't much need to go > any further. Cannot some antenna characteristics be modeled without the > entire system in place? Yes, but you have to at least include the whole antenna -- you can't tell much about a two-element array by modeling a single isolated element. In the case of an OCF dipole, unless heroic efforts are made to keep common mode current off the feedline (which the balun doesn't achieve), the feedline is part of the antenna so, like the second element of an array, it can have a major impact on the both the pattern and impedance and has to be included in the model. The balun, feedline length, and feedline orientation all play a role in determining how much current goes down the feedline part of the antenna and where that part is. So you have to know at least that much to get a meaningful result. I'm no expert, so I'll ask the question: Is > there some Balun that will make a 135 foot equal length antenna perform > on 80-10 meters? "Perform" is one of those binary terms that depend on where you put the dividing line. But the answer is that the only practical way you can achieve a reasonable impedance match to a coax feedline on all bands with a center fed 135 foot antenna is to introduce a fair amount of loss. This could be in the form of a resistor at the feedpoint, for example. Then you'll have an inefficient antenna at least on some bands. Alternatively, you can have low loss at the feedpoint but a lousy impedance match. Then you'd have a lot of loss in the feedline if you fed it with coax. The bottom line is that you'll have poor efficiency on at least some bands if you feed it with coax, no matter what you do -- short of putting either an adjustable or very elaborate fixed matching network at the feedpoint. Nearly any ham can measure the SWR but almost none can measure the efficiency. So many antenna manufacturers have produced lossy antennas which exhibit a low SWR. This is perfectly acceptable to many amateurs, as evidenced by glowing reviews for a number of antennas which can be shown to be quite inefficient such as the B&W T2FD or the Isotron. Those amateurs would positively say that such antennas "perform", and this can't be disputed since the judgment is entirely up to them. > . . . > Others may take it at all at face value, disregard all the evidence > to the contrary, and assume that the sellers are just trying to hoodwink > a gullible public into buying a non-working product. > > That doesn't make sense to me. YMMV "Working" is like "perform" -- the threshold is different for different people. But a quick scan of reviews for the Buckmaster and Alpha-Delta OCF antennas (the latter apparently manufactured by Buckmaster) show high satisfaction from at least the users who have taken the time to post reviews. Whether you or I would be happy with one depends on our personal criteria. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225971 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:15:18 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Elimination of CW is a loss in the number of ways we can communicatewith References: <9937b$44969457$d06640f9$14348@FUSE.NET> <44969559.30D72920@milestones.com> <129lvmgofeujhbd@corp.supernews.com> <129md8dpa74dk64@corp.supernews.com> <0b-dna0PZNH3XwbZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@comcast.com> <1151079492.943855.93760@b68g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <449c2766$0$79632$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <33eog.55053$fb2.28347@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Message-ID: <53da4$44a50840$d06640f9$1754@FUSE.NET> Let's be honest, the only thing you can repair is some old piece of junk tube rig because the technology is so simple. You could never repair a modern rig, because like most dinos, you have ever evolved into the new technology because out of fear, you cling to what is old and comfortable. Slow Code wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote in > news:33eog.55053$fb2.28347@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net: > >> Slow Code wrote: >>> When hardware fails, my pencil and paper still work. >> When hardware fails, you resort to messages in bottles? > > > Yes, I can get the message there quicker in a bottle, than the time it > takes an appliance operator to get their rig back from a repair shop. > > SC Article: 225972 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:39 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Wow, you guys must have been part of the most ignorant group of individuals ever put on this earth using the most crappy computers and equipment. All the computers crashed? Wow, how could that have happened? I am surprised that the newbies are still using ham radio after hanging around with you dinos. Computers broke down and you could not help fix them. That's right, the computers don't run on tubes and that is the extent of your knowledge as dinos. Now anyone that uses PSK knows that you can work a station that you cannot hear with the human ear. Anyone that knows CW knows that you have to hear CW in order to copy it. So as a dino, you are showing your ignorance of technology and probably have never heard, seen or used PSK or you would never have made that statement. My Field Day group had a good laugh when I pointed out your message to them. They said you obviously don't know what you are talking about - at least concerning anything modern. So you old, used up, worthless dinos laughed at the newbies, belittled them, and you could not fix or use anything modern. And you think those newbies are going to stick with ham radio? Probably not. Old thinking buggy whip hams like yourself need to stay locked in your shacks talking only with other dinos about your illnesses and the like, and stay away >from the younger technology savy crowd as they might be really interested in ham radio and your old crap is going to scare them away. They don't want to learn about buggy whips when they are interested in driving a modern car - get it old timer? Slow Code wrote: > > > I know you're right. > > They where doing great until the computers crashed then the new hams > looked at us old hams, blank stares on their faces wondering what to do. > They thought Field day was over at the point. Then us dino's took over > and showed them what ham radio really was. Some nickle extra's even said > they were going practice building their code skills again. They saw you > can work stations on code that you can't work on phone or PSK31. We > taught them how to solder on PL-259s and tune portable antenna & trim wire > antennas. > > We laughed when they lifted up the tri-bander and then had to take it down > again to connect up the coax. That was funny. > > SC Article: 225973 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:35:50 GMT Mike Coslo wrote: > I'm just looking at what is there, and by looking at both the context of > the advertisement, references given for their other antennas and the > like, I'm just saying that I suspect that that antenna is a OCF dipole. At: http://www.commparts.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=9&sort=2a&page=2 The OCF's are labeled as Windoms and drawn with unequal elements. The ones drawn with equal elements are not labeled as Windoms. I would infer that they are different but I could be wrong. I sure would like to know what's inside the "balun". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225974 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:51:03 GMT Roy Lewallen wrote: > Nearly any ham can measure the SWR but almost none can measure the > efficiency. How about ten interested parties sending you $5 each so you can buy and test one and review and report back here? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225975 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Backfire Bob" References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> <5rc9a2dgkck8vkj3ehb2cf6vrc5vu2t778@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Anyone here think this crap isnt a scam? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:19:12 GMT "Walt Davidson" walt@ukgateway.net in message news:5rc9a2dgkck8vkj3ehb2cf6vrc5vu2t778@4ax.com... > On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:27:21 GMT, "Backfire Bob" > wrote: > >>WOW Walt! you sure showed me..you fat old over inflated windbag.... >>Go back to printing your own DX QSL cards for your wall..you fake. > > The rank CBer exposes himself at every turn. > > Of course, it was always inevitable that this would be the result of > letting these people into ham radio. > :-( > > 73 de G3NYY > > -- > Walt Davidson Email: walt@ukgateway.net You GO! there Bluto :) what a winner...... All anyone has to do is simply google "G3NYY" or walt@ukgateway.net and see what a WANKER you really are......nothing but a DX/QSL fake..... Not much credit from a 400 pound whale.....HF rig on one side, refrigerator on the other. Send us a picture, one hand on a key, the other holding a apple fritter....Rank pig.... Article: 225976 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Anyone have an EZNEC Windom Model Message-ID: References: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:15:43 GMT On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:21:32 +0000, David A'Bear wrote: > >Larry Wrote: >> I would like to model my Carolina Windom antenna and compare it with >> the >> real antenna that I have installed. Does anyone have EZNEC modelling >> data >> for any kind of Windom that they are willing to share? I believe the Cebik site has an article or two on off-center fed dipoles. And if you're a qst subscriber, there are probably a number of old windom articles you can look at, at the arrl technical site. bob k5qwg >> >> 73 >> Larry >Hi Larry - Just wonder if you have had any luck? Working on the same >thing myself and having difficulties. >73 >David Article: 225977 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "JSF" Subject: DDRR antenna Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:27:11 -0500 Message-ID: Anyone used one and if so how did it compare to a 1/4 wave. Article: 225978 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "J S Austin, W8JSA" Subject: Re: Anyone here think this crap isnt a scam? References: <2mkog.58280$9c6.45638@dukeread11> <5rc9a2dgkck8vkj3ehb2cf6vrc5vu2t778@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:00:26 +0000 Walt Davidson wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 03:27:21 GMT, "Backfire Bob" > wrote: >=20 >=20 >>WOW Walt! you sure showed me..you fat old over inflated windbag.... >>Go back to printing your own DX QSL cards for your wall..you fake. >=20 >=20 > The rank CBer exposes himself at every turn. >=20 > Of course, it was always inevitable that this would be the result of > letting these people into ham radio. > :-( >=20 > 73 de G3NYY > Let's change his name to 'Backfire Boob'. --=20 J S AUSTIN, W8JSA AMATEUR RADIO STATION W8JSA CHESAPEAKE VA 23320 N36=CB=9A45'43=E2=80=9D W076=CB=9A15'01=E2=80=9D FM16us http://w8jsa.org/radio.html Article: 225979 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <0eufn3-3q8.ln1@mail.specsol.com> From: jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com Subject: Re: DDRR antenna References: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:05:02 GMT JSF wrote: > Anyone used one and if so how did it compare to a 1/4 wave. You might want to read: http://www.orionmicro.com/ant/ddrr/ddrr1.htm -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Article: 225980 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: You Subject: Re: rf burn References: <129s61p92po1l17@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:47:31 GMT In article , wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil (J. B. Wood) wrote: > In article , Win > wrote: > > > When I worked in broadcast radio years ago, I was always amazed that > > service personnal would climb the 10 kw tower hot to change lights. > > They stated they could feel potential between their hands as they > > climbed. > > > > Win, wolz > > Hello, and was that a shunt-fed AM broadcast tower? You might just get > away with a grab at ground level. OTOH, I would think that grabbing onto > a live base-insulated type tower would have serious consequences when > being fed by a 10 kW transmitter. Just looking at the RF bypass hardware > needed at the base to provide for tower lighting (Austin transformer or > Collins lighting choke) should be enough to say "keep away" while > transmitting. Sincerely, and 73s from N4GG0, > > John Wood (Code 5550) e-mail: wood@itd.nrl.navy.mil > > Naval Research Laboratory > 4555 Overlook Avenue, SW > Washington, DC 20375-5337 Then you would be.....wait for it....... WRONG........ Article: 225981 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve N." Subject: Re: dipole made of two cb whips? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:56:18 -0500 Message-ID: References: <10362-44A33915-1280@storefull-3251.bay.webtv.net> <12a6j5ojjea9q6a@corp.supernews.com> <12a8oudivc16i32@corp.supernews.com> Thanks for your comments Roy. I dispute nothing you said (like I'd even try). The area I focus on is that a beginner (and this was clearly such a guestion), trying to understand antennas shouldn't be given too many of the more esoteric aspects you point out such as a real earth ground-plane and radials on a real antenna. I figured that a simple analogy, as long as it either holds up in the future, or its short comings can be easily understood later, is a valid starting point in a complex subject such as this. Ground losses and radiation angle effects of the real ground plane asside, the chosen counterpoise whatever its form, does indeed provide the "rest of the story" (:-) just as the OP has pretty much igured out and was looking for validation. I believe the "trick" is a getting well-working analogy...something that will not be contradicted by the deeper understanding. (use the garden hose analogy to explain current, but know when to point out its shortcommings). 73, Steve, K9DCI "Roy Lewallen" wrote in message news:12a8oudivc16i32@corp.supernews.com... > Steve N. wrote: > > . . . > > While what Roy says is correct (there should rarely be any doubt) , I > > believe Jim's interpretation is not in-valid and can be a very good "mental > > model" of antennas.. The monopole needs something to be its "other half" as > > Jim says. In a ground plane antenna, the "plane" is the other half. In a > > dipole (vertical or otherwise) the bottom half is the "other half". Any and > > every circuit needs two connections to have a complete circuit. Sometimes, > > with antennas, the "other half" is not obvious to everyone, but it will > > always be there and Roy's words; "...the same amount of current which flows > > into a monopole must flow somewhere else .." addresses this "other half" > > issue. I believe Jims words are sufficently close to Roy's words to be > > equivalent. So, I would say, Yes. There ain't no such thing as a monopole, > > you just don't realize what is acting as the other half (If you think you > > have one). > > I believe this basic concept can be applied to almost every antenna > > configuration to help understand, to a great extent, what is "going on" > > I agree with that. > > > > > Jim: > >> the element is > >>> reflected by ground or a ground plane or a counterpoise and is > >>> effectively a two element set up anyway. > >> Roy: > >> No, an element isn't "reflected". The field from any antenna, monopole > >> or dipole, is reflected by the ground, creating interference with the > >> unreflected field. > > > > Actyually I'd say Yes. I believe the following words describe precisely the > > same thing Roy said. > > In electromagnetic field theory studies, there is something called the > > "Method of Mirrors". This is a way to calculate a field when there is a > > conducting plane nearby. To model the conducting plane is mathematically > > very complex. You actually can model the conducting plane as a mirror which > > has produced a "reflection" of the element in it. This reflection, because > > of the properties of the field, has the opposite sign (polarity) and is > > mathematically handled as though it was another element in the place > > conducting plane. . It turns out that with this new model, it is much > > easier to do the math to get the total field. (NO I can't do it any > > more...don't actually think I was doing it the first time! bad instructor). > > So, I would say that it is a pretty good analogy to say that the ground > > plane "has the effect of" reflecting the monopole and therefore providing > > the "other half". > > The reasons I objected to the concept are twofold. First, there's some > ambiguity in what constitutes the "ground plane" which does the > "reflecting". The "ground plane" of a ground plane antenna reflects > nothing except very high angle radiation. So it doesn't act as a mirror > in any sense. Secondly, the Earth does reflect the field, but the result > isn't anything like a mirror. Only a perfect ground ends up creating the > same shaped field from a grounded vertical as a free space dipole. Real > ground creates a field shape which is very significantly different. So > the model of a mirror-like ground isn't at all a good one; its use leads > to incorrect conclusions so I don't feel it should be used unless the > user clearly understands that the conditions under which it's valid > aren't ones you can achieve very well at all -- except with salt water > or with a very large (several wavelength radius) conducting plane > perhaps at UHF. > > >> so, somebody take me to > >>> school on this; what about a ground plane whip such as a cb antenna with > >>> another identical whip mounted upside down below it? > >> This constitutes a vertical dipole, a common antenna type. > > > > You have, ideed described a dipole turned vertical...and I feel you have > > identified a very important concept in antennas. Just about every antenna > > can be understood better if you start out by finding the "dipole" hidden > > within. beams, G5RVs end-fire arrays, broasdide arras, J-Antennas, > > colinears... > > > > > >> would the bottom > >>> whip appear equal to a ground plane and allow the antenna to radiate as > >>> it was intended to? > >> No, it wouldn't "appear equal to a ground plane". As for the antenna > >> radiating as it's intended to, how do you intend for it to radiate? > > > > Per my above, I'd say that Jim's description is a relatively good model > > to have in your head. If the groundplane "acts" similar to a mirror giving > > rise to the equivalent of the "other half" of the dipole, and that result is > > equivalent to another "half" mounted below it, I feel this only leaves us to > > debate the real meaning of Jim's words "...appear equal to ...". I think > > that is a pretty good way to think about it. > > Well, no, a typical "ground plane" doesn't act like a mirror, as I > explained above. And even the Earth does a very poor job of acting like > one. At best, it's a dirty mirror which isn't uniformly dirty. The only > common exception is salt water, which does a fair job. > > >> would this work in an application where a decent rf > >>> ground cannot be achieved? > >> Sure. A vertical dipole is a very common type of antenna. A google > >> search should bring you a wealth of information. > > > > Ditto on what Roy said, plus: The antenna commonly called a "J-Pole" is > > "the same thing" as a half wave dipole, but stood on end, > > vertically...EXCEPT it is fed power at its bottom end not in the middle. > > > > As an asside...I'll also add that this concept of a "decent RF ground" > > is something that many seem to believe is some sort of an absolute thing. > > Comments labout wanting to get a wire to a ground rod as being the solution > > to all things...the hunt for the "good RF ground". I have a tongue-in-cheek > > twist on an old saying: "A ground's a ground, the world around." An RF > > ground is somwhat of a myth, even on a solid sheet of copper, but some think > > there is this absolute GROUND that all things must be connected to in order > > for things to work correctly, or solve problems. Of course I know that, as > > Jim states, that the bottom half of this vertical dipole is the "other half" > > of the antenna and might be considered a "ground" but is is nothing more > > than the other half of the antenna and hads, and needs, absolutely no > > relation a zerp potential reference, whatever that is. > > Yes, "ground" is a concept which is almost universally misunderstood and > misused. Calling something "ground" seemingly imparts magical properties > to it. Very often, it gets in the way of understanding how antennas > work, and people would be better off forgetting about it. It's not > uncommon for an EZNEC user to ask how to model a "ground" or to specify > that something is a "ground", meaning some sort of elevated > "counterpoise" or "ground plane". I explain that the program doesn't > know or care what the user might consider to be "ground" -- all it knows > and cares about are conductors and currents. People hoping to understand > antennas would be well served by doing the same. > > > . . . > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225982 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Michael Coslo Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:29:36 -0400 Message-ID: References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> Roy Lewallen wrote: > Mike Coslo wrote: >> Roy Lewallen wrote: >>> Mike Coslo wrote: >>> >>>> . . . >>>> I don't doubt that someone might come to a different conclusion, >>>> but I think my reasoning is pretty sound. I modeled an equal length >>>> version of this in 4nec, and it just doesn't work very well. OTOH, >>>> turn it into an OCF dipole, and it is a different story. . . >>> >>> >>> How did you possibly determine what the balun input impedance was >>> when terminated with the impedances the antenna presented on the >>> various bands? >> >> You are correct, I couldn't. But what I got was enough to tell me >> that with the two sides of equal length, there wasn't much need to go >> any further. Cannot some antenna characteristics be modeled without >> the entire system in place? > > Yes, but you have to at least include the whole antenna -- you can't > tell much about a two-element array by modeling a single isolated > element. In the case of an OCF dipole, unless heroic efforts are made to > keep common mode current off the feedline (which the balun doesn't > achieve), the feedline is part of the antenna so, like the second > element of an array, it can have a major impact on the both the pattern > and impedance and has to be included in the model. The balun, feedline > length, and feedline orientation all play a role in determining how much > current goes down the feedline part of the antenna and where that part > is. So you have to know at least that much to get a meaningful result. > > I'm no expert, so I'll ask the question: Is >> there some Balun that will make a 135 foot equal length antenna >> perform on 80-10 meters? > > "Perform" is one of those binary terms that depend on where you put the > dividing line. But the answer is that the only practical way you can > achieve a reasonable impedance match to a coax feedline on all bands > with a center fed 135 foot antenna is to introduce a fair amount of > loss. This could be in the form of a resistor at the feedpoint, for > example. Then you'll have an inefficient antenna at least on some bands. > Alternatively, you can have low loss at the feedpoint but a lousy > impedance match. Then you'd have a lot of loss in the feedline if you > fed it with coax. The bottom line is that you'll have poor efficiency on > at least some bands if you feed it with coax, no matter what you do -- > short of putting either an adjustable or very elaborate fixed matching > network at the feedpoint. > > Nearly any ham can measure the SWR but almost none can measure the > efficiency. So many antenna manufacturers have produced lossy antennas > which exhibit a low SWR. This is perfectly acceptable to many amateurs, > as evidenced by glowing reviews for a number of antennas which can be > shown to be quite inefficient such as the B&W T2FD or the Isotron. Those > amateurs would positively say that such antennas "perform", and this > can't be disputed since the judgment is entirely up to them. > >> . . . > >> Others may take it at all at face value, disregard all the >> evidence to the contrary, and assume that the sellers are just trying >> to hoodwink a gullible public into buying a non-working product. >> >> That doesn't make sense to me. YMMV > > "Working" is like "perform" -- the threshold is different for different > people. But a quick scan of reviews for the Buckmaster and Alpha-Delta > OCF antennas (the latter apparently manufactured by Buckmaster) show > high satisfaction from at least the users who have taken the time to > post reviews. Whether you or I would be happy with one depends on our > personal criteria. As a *very* loose definition of work, I would say that I would expect an antenna that advertises itself as an "all band" would allow a modern Transceiver to put our something like full power, that is, to not fold back on power. Oh yeah, and to radiate something. I don't see a tuner in that diagram, so take your pick whether they are assuming an internal tuner. Certainly there are a lot more stringent criteria. But that would seem to suffice for many hams. 8^) - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Article: 225983 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gravity" References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:45:09 -0500 Message-ID: <44a58e0f$0$16357$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> "Michael Coslo" wrote in message news:e841jg$1b9i$1@f04n12.cac.psu.edu... > As a *very* loose definition of work, I would say that I would expect > an antenna that advertises itself as an "all band" would allow a modern > Transceiver to put our something like full power, that is, to not fold > back on power. Oh yeah, and to radiate something. I don't see a tuner in > that diagram, so take your pick whether they are assuming an internal tuner. > if i bought a similar antenna, i'd assume i'd need a tuner. i mean i needed one with my 120 foot (60 + 60) foot doublet. you don't even need a real fancy tuner, mine was a small Yaesu digital. it did have some problems on 40 meters (high Z?). Gravity Article: 225984 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: <12ab588alg64h6c@corp.supernews.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> Michael Coslo wrote: > > As a *very* loose definition of work, I would say that I would > expect an antenna that advertises itself as an "all band" would allow a > modern Transceiver to put our something like full power, that is, to not > fold back on power. Oh yeah, and to radiate something. I don't see a > tuner in that diagram, so take your pick whether they are assuming an > internal tuner. > > Certainly there are a lot more stringent criteria. But that would > seem to suffice for many hams. 8^) Indeed it does. Many are happy with an antenna that gives a low SWR on all bands and radiates 1/100 of the applied power. You can work the world with one watt of radiated power. On the other hand, give a ham an efficient but poorly matched antenna that causes his rig to fold back and produce only 10 watts, and he'll be an unhappy camper. So the first antenna "works" but the second doesn't, even though the signal it radiates is 10 dB stronger. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 225985 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:21:53 GMT "J. D. B." wrote in news:14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET: > Wow, you guys must have been part of the most ignorant group of > individuals ever put on this earth using the most crappy computers and > equipment. All the computers crashed? Wow, how could that have > happened? > > I am surprised that the newbies are still using ham radio after hanging > around with you dinos. Computers broke down and you could not help fix > them. That's right, the computers don't run on tubes and that is the > extent of your knowledge as dinos. > > Now anyone that uses PSK knows that you can work a station that you > cannot hear with the human ear. Anyone that knows CW knows that you > have to hear CW in order to copy it. So as a dino, you are showing your > ignorance of technology and probably have never heard, seen or used PSK > or you would never have made that statement. > > My Field Day group had a good laugh when I pointed out your message to > them. They said you obviously don't know what you are talking about - > at least concerning anything modern. > > So you old, used up, worthless dinos laughed at the newbies, belittled > them, and you could not fix or use anything modern. And you think those > newbies are going to stick with ham radio? Probably not. Old thinking > buggy whip hams like yourself need to stay locked in your shacks talking > only with other dinos about your illnesses and the like, and stay away > from the younger technology savy crowd as they might be really > interested in ham radio and your old crap is going to scare them away. > > They don't want to learn about buggy whips when they are interested in > driving a modern car - get it old timer? I know you're right. These new modernized hams want everything to be easy just like flipping the on-off switch on an appliance. We try and tell them that ham radio is more than just operating an appliance, but they won't listen. Then when murphy's law kicks in they don't know how to deal with it. I feel sorry for them, but it's really not their fault that licensing has been dumbed down over the years. The phonies did notice after we put the broken computers in the dumpster that the bands sounded much better without all the computer generated noise on their receivers. And their contacts per minute increased. They realize now that when equipment fails it's nice to have skills you can fall back on that will let you keep communicating. Especially important during emergencies. Hams wouldn't look good if during an emergency we couldn't communicate. SC Article: 225986 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from us dinosaurs. From: Slow Code References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:21:56 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:Cw_og.57621$Lm5.34062@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com: > Slow Code wrote: >> That's generally when you find out your rig might need repair, when >> someone reports your audio is distorted or garbled. > > I invariably find out my rig needs repair when the > finals blow. And how many times has that happened to you? I'll bet never. You're too smart to smoke your finals. Normally when I hear someone lost their finals it was a result of operator error, or an act of stupidity. sc Article: 225987 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ron Subject: Re: All Band Coax-fed Dipole ?????????? Date: 30 Jun 2006 19:25:23 EDT Message-ID: <44A5B476.7060300@yahoo.com> References: <449e9959$0$16418$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net> <12a21gtrbsfkf63@corp.supernews.com> <3s44a2dbc1aqbvgph1o7a3b60h0rkpt6o2@4ax.com> <2kd5a2djg2e651n4bpe6o7c4e0vvdkn93v@4ax.com> <4s6dnekOK9iOqT7ZnZ2dnUVZ_sOdnZ2d@adelphia.com> <12a6ig7ghnskr92@corp.supernews.com> <12a9b7dqlb92he0@corp.supernews.com> <12ab588alg64h6c@corp.supernews.com> > Indeed it does. Many are happy with an antenna that gives a low SWR on > all bands and radiates 1/100 of the applied power. You can work the > world with one watt of radiated power. On the other hand, give a ham an > efficient but poorly matched antenna that causes his rig to fold back > and produce only 10 watts, and he'll be an unhappy camper. So the first > antenna "works" but the second doesn't, even though the signal it > radiates is 10 dB stronger. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Well said but now everyone knows the secret. Article: 225988 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:44:28 -0400 From: "J. D. B." Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: Slow Code, I think it is time you put up or shut up. If the skills among you dinos were so great, then you had to finish at the top of your category. So tell us now, what group were you part of, what section, and what category did you compete in? Then, when the results are published, we will compare your standings with those other groups who had the modern, technically trained operators. We'll see if the dinos are extinct or if modern humans have triumphed. Slow Code wrote: > > > I know you're right. > > These new modernized hams want everything to be easy just like flipping > the on-off switch on an appliance. We try and tell them that ham radio is > more than just operating an appliance, but they won't listen. Then when > murphy's law kicks in they don't know how to deal with it. I feel sorry > for them, but it's really not their fault that licensing has been dumbed > down over the years. The phonies did notice after we put the broken > computers in the dumpster that the bands sounded much better without all > the computer generated noise on their receivers. And their contacts per > minute increased. They realize now that when equipment fails it's nice to > have skills you can fall back on that will let you keep communicating. > Especially important during emergencies. Hams wouldn't look good if > during an emergency we couldn't communicate. > > > SC Article: 225989 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <1730d$44a129d9$d06640f9$23135@FUSE.NET> <14079$44a50aea$d06640f9$26607@FUSE.NET> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 02:25:22 GMT Slow Code wrote: > Hams wouldn't look good if > during an emergency we couldn't communicate. So exactly how do hams communicate with failed equipment? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225990 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Field day was great, even the phonies had fun and learned from References: <5MGog.30641$VE1.2858@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <_uZog.126$PE1.119@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 02:26:58 GMT Slow Code wrote: > And how many times has that happened to you? I'll bet never. You're too > smart to smoke your finals. Normally when I hear someone lost their > finals it was a result of operator error, or an act of stupidity. Act of God - lightning. And the CW mode was not spared. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 225991 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: coax test? Message-ID: Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 02:42:34 GMT hi If you buy a length of coax w/connectors on it , either a short jumper say 3ft or a run of say 100ft what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of termination connector quality? accuracy is what i am looking for to ensure realibility at 1gig thanks Article: 225992 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Bob Subject: Re: coax test? References: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 23:42:56 -0500 Easy way to gte a rough idea is to measure the power of your TX at the TX output, then connect the coax and measure the power at the end of it. The loss/diff should be a published figure that is frequency dependent. If the loss exceeds the published number you have to suspect the cable/connectors. Cheers Bob ml wrote: > what is an easy way to test the coax as well as the quality of > termination connector quality?