Article: 227741 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "brizzy bastard" References: <43C15BA4.3F39@orcon.net.nz> <43c793c4$0$2255$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <43C80CF5.2B5C@orcon.net.nz> <43c83db7$0$17190$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <43c8eaa8$0$13318$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <44d69eec@quokka.wn.com.au> Subject: Radio Direction Finder Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 15:44:55 +1000 Message-ID: <44d6d365$0$11970$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> A cheap tracking device can be purchased through one of the following pages. http://tech-software.net/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page& PAGE_id=5&MMN_position=7:7 http://www.silcom.com/~pelican2/PicoDopp/PICODOPP.htm I really don't think tracking devices have to be expensive but if you don't like paying for a good one, then I can provide a very simple 555ic timer circuit you can use that will cost about $10 to make. Here is the circuit of a very simple but workable tracking device that I once used to track a signal to tandy's store in the toowong towers in Brisbane. Once you learn how to use it, you can track to a square metre. A hand held radio is the best choice of radio to use with the tracker. This shop blocked ch 7 for 3 days until I had some free time to go and see where it was coming from. The same shop did it again some time later and the culprit lost his job at that location thanks to a night time worker that was on the ball. The signal was a radio on the shelf connected to power with a small antenna and a clip lead over the mic insert to hold it on tx. http://www.k1ttt.net/technote/doppler.html http://au.geocities.com/vk4jzz/side.jpg "me" wrote in message news:44d69eec@quokka.wn.com.au... > Kev wrote: > > Kev a tanker wanker ,,,, do tell more Kev Deck or ER ? > > > > news wrote: > > > >> yes thanks glenn. I would like a copy of the circuit. > >> > >> email james_about@hotmail.com with the info please. > >> > >> Any thing you need also. I keep a fairly extensive collection of radio > >> software and circuits. > >> > >> And gidday to Kev ....tanker wanker. private joke. > >> > >> > > > > :) > > > > > > Kev Article: 227742 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: 9A4QV Subject: Comet triband CX-901 Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 11:28:03 +0200 Message-ID: Hello, I have the mentioned antenna but in the transport I lost my radials and manuals. Can you be so kind to tell me the length of the radials. (Length with and without the threads) Also it will be nice to know the diameter of the radials. Thanks in advance, Adam, 9A4QV Article: 227743 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re: sat ant question References: <20060805141055.3e228a15@localhost> <20060805192158.3dcc97f1@localhost> <4Y7Bg.4475$gY6.477@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 09:31:22 GMT Someone asked if i was referring to amateur sat's, yes i was referring to the amateur sats exclusivly my question remains, so if i must loose one compass direction what should it be? thanks In article <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost>, Dominique Michel wrote: > Le Sat, 05 Aug 2006 21:20:00 GMT, > Bob a écrit : > > > Dominique, > > I am also speaking from personal and professional experience with Ku > > QPSK MCPC systems. Signal loss through the glass in dB correlates with > > the same decrease in Eb/No in digital systems. I am curious what your > > location is and what systems you have worked with. > > Bob > > > > I am in Switzerland now, but the location at that time (2 years ago) was near > Malmö in Sweden. > The kind of system I was working with was mostly consumer grade electronics, > 50 % Nokia complete sat system, and 50 % other brands as philips or samsung. > All digital. A few years before that it was mostly analog systems, but the > transition between analog and digital was going very fast. > > I have done a few big installations too, but is was mostly mixed > analog-digital cable TV here, or analog sat mixed with normal TV antennas. > > For the sats, the most wanted was Sirius, Thor, Hotbird and Astra. And it was > on ku band too. > > For the parabol antenna, my favorite ones was nokia and Wisi. Wisi have a > good quality and not only consumer grads products, but also professional > material, and they have a technical staff that know the job very well. > > Dominique > > > Dominique Michel wrote: > > > Le Sat, 05 Aug 2006 15:33:07 GMT, > > > Bob a écrit : > > > > > >> Are you asking about amateur satellite operation or TV reception via > > >> satellites? Although Dominique’s explanation of digital satellite > > >> signals passing through glass may be explained on paper, it has no merit > > >> in actual use. Some glass has attenuation at C/Ku frequencies but this > > >> purely shows up as signal reduction with associated loss of C/N, BER, > > >> etc in digital systems. Analog and digital satellite reception are > > >> affected the same. > > >> Bob > > >> > > > > > > What I say here is based on personal experience. And it is for TV > > > reception that use phase multiplexing in order to send many different > > > channels on the same frequency. The signal going through a glass is > > > affected in a way that do impossible to receive some channels. A bigger > > > parabol will change nothing, it is just to remove the glass to get all > > > the channels. > > > > > > You get exactly the same effect if the shape of the parabol is not > > > perfect (as it can append after a hazard under transportation), it will > > > work just fine for analog reception but with a digital tuner, some > > > channels will work when others will not. It is just to change the > > > parabol to get all the channels. Sometime, the defect with the shape of > > > the parabol is so little as you see nothing with the eyes, but you > > > change it against another one from the same model and it just work. I > > > installed hundreds of parabol antenna, and it was never a problem with > > > a wholesaler or a manufacturer to change a defective parabol, they know > > > this problem very well. > > > > > > Dominique > > > > > >> Dominique Michel wrote: > > >>> Le Sat, 05 Aug 2006 11:38:23 GMT, > > >>> ml a écrit : > > >>> > > >>>> hi > > >>>> > > >>>> thinking about getting into sat's, and have a newbie question > > >>>> > > >>>> i may only be permitted to put up my antennas on a part of the roof > > >>>> that > > >>>> would be blocked by a structure(elevator room) > > >>>> > > >>>> so in 1 compass direction or so to almost straight up i would be > > >>>> blind > > >>>> > > >>>> question: > > >>>> > > >>>> so is their a particular compas headding that is best to loose? > > >>> It MUST be a direct view from the antenna to the sat. Otherwise is it > > >>> just to forget it. With analog reception, the antenna can work very > > >>> well through a glass window, or while directing the antenna on a > > >>> reflexion (at least if you can afford a high end tuner in this last > > >>> case), > > >>> by but with digital reception, even a tiny glass will cause a > > >>> lot of trouble (some channels will just disappear), because the digital > > >>> technique use phase multiplexing > > >>> and the phase of the signal will change in a non linear fashion through > > >>> the glass or on a reflexion. > > >>> > > >>> Dominique Article: 227744 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jerry Martes" References: <20060805141055.3e228a15@localhost> <20060805192158.3dcc97f1@localhost> <4Y7Bg.4475$gY6.477@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost> Subject: Re: sat ant question Message-ID: <6qHBg.9394$qw5.7976@trnddc06> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:41:22 GMT "ml" wrote in message news:m-3712CF.05314007082006@news.verizon.net... > Someone asked if i was referring to amateur sat's, yes i was referring > to the amateur sats exclusivly > > my question remains, so if i must loose one compass direction what > should it be? > > thanks Hi ml The least valuable compass direction for you is either East or West, if the satellites are Polar Orbiting Satellites. Jerry SNIP SNIP Article: 227745 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: gwatts Subject: Re: sat ant question References: <20060805141055.3e228a15@localhost> <20060805192158.3dcc97f1@localhost> <4Y7Bg.4475$gY6.477@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 13:56:04 GMT ml wrote: > Someone asked if i was referring to amateur sat's, yes i was referring > to the amateur sats exclusivly > > my question remains, so if i must loose one compass direction what > should it be? > > thanks In the limited amateur satellite action I've had I've needed all four compass directions but early on got away with only having an azimuth rotator, fixing elevation at about 50 degrees above the horizon. I didn't get the low el passes well or at all until I had an elevation rotor but it worked quite well most other times. If you're thinking you'd only use an elevation rotor so you could track horizon to horizon I'd set it up on a north-south line, not only for the polar orbit sats but also it probably wouldn't be so bad for the others. If you're using yagis I'd put the elements perpendicular to the direction of tracking, parallel to the axis of rotation due to the beamwidth of a yagi in that direction. Personally I'd start with azimuth only if I couldn't do both axis simultaneously. Good luck, Galen, W8LNA Article: 227746 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Ricke" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 7 Aug 2006 07:09:05 -0700 Message-ID: <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation factor is worth learning code Rick N4NKR Article: 227747 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 10:02:09 -0500 Message-ID: <12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <7ifcb2pnsk4dfm7sqgq0fk5o2blct6i9r7@4ax.com> <641db29d5dd2dsn4ofkgdc7dr02nq7ugr1@4ax.com> <44b69682$0$3634$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Ricke wrote: > Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation > factor is worth learning code > > Rick > N4NKR > If one wishes to operate legally on 11 meters do not use CW or tone CW. The only legal modes of communicating there is AM or SSB voice. Tone maybe used as an alerting mechanism but not for other methods of communication. Even though licenses are not required and most (not all) persons don't follow the regs there, if you are caught violating the regs there you can be refused an Amateur License. It can and does happen from time to time. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 227748 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Bart" Subject: Homemade 440 yagi question Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:29:12 GMT I built a 6 element 432mhz yagi from instructions in the ARRL Handbook. I used a 1" wood dowel for the beam and 1/4" aluminum rod for the elements. I used a "T" match on the driven element. One on each side, just like the illustrations show. And a 1/2 wavelength phasing line. But the instructions don't show or say if the driven element is split in the middle. Shouldn't the driven element be split. Article: 227749 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: Homemade 440 yagi question From: Dave Oldridge References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:57:52 GMT "Bart" wrote in news:c%IBg.223918$mF2.164803@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net: > I built a 6 element 432mhz yagi from instructions in the ARRL > Handbook. I used a 1" wood dowel for the beam and 1/4" aluminum rod > for the elements. I used a "T" match on the driven element. One on > each side, just like the illustrations show. And a 1/2 wavelength > phasing line. > > But the instructions don't show or say if the driven element is split > in the middle. > > Shouldn't the driven element be split. The short answer is no. The T-match produces a current through that portion. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 Article: 227750 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "K7ITM" Subject: Re: Homemade 440 yagi question Date: 7 Aug 2006 10:02:16 -0700 Message-ID: <1154970136.457578.299980@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: Think of the "T" match (with the driven element) as being similar to a folded dipole. The element should not have a break in the middle, just as the second wire in the folded dipole should not. If you put a break in the middle, it would become for all practical purposes just a center-driven dipole. Cheers, Tom Bart wrote: > I built a 6 element 432mhz yagi from instructions in the ARRL Handbook. I > used a 1" wood dowel for the beam and 1/4" aluminum rod for the elements. I > used a "T" match on the driven element. One on each side, just like the > illustrations show. And a 1/2 wavelength phasing line. > > But the instructions don't show or say if the driven element is split in the > middle. > > Shouldn't the driven element be split. Article: 227751 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <7ifcb2pnsk4dfm7sqgq0fk5o2blct6i9r7@4ax.com> <641db29d5dd2dsn4ofkgdc7dr02nq7ugr1@4ax.com> <44b69682$0$3634$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 16:35:59 -0400 Message-ID: <44d7a423$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com... > Ricke wrote: > >> Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation >> factor is worth learning code >> >> Rick >> N4NKR >> > > If one wishes to operate legally on 11 meters do not use CW or tone CW. > The only legal modes of communicating there is AM or SSB voice. Tone maybe > used as an alerting mechanism but not for other methods of communication. > > Even though licenses are not required and most (not all) persons don't > follow the regs there, if you are caught violating the regs there you can > be refused an Amateur License. It can and does happen from time to time. > > Dave WD9BDZ This is true! As the man said, tho most don't follow them - they DO exist. They WILL be enforced - if so desired. Actually, an infraction of any radio rule can deem you ineligible for not only an Amateur Licence but also any other license from the FCC - even GROL. IF you hold a GROL and do something stupid with it, it can cause your "amateur" license to be stripped. Ignorance is no excuse. When you sign the forms - and your license(s) - you agree to abide by the R/Rs. Article: 227752 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "TimBob" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 7 Aug 2006 13:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! Tim N7XAU Cecil Moore wrote: > Dave wrote: > > C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know CW. > > Does that mean we're virtually obsolete? > > My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never > going to save the world. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227753 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:48:34 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: What MUST be true?... Alien invasion!! When? Where? How?? TimBob wrote: > In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien > invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! > Tim N7XAU > Cecil Moore wrote: > >>Dave wrote: >> >>>C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know CW. >>>Does that mean we're virtually obsolete? >> >>My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never >>going to save the world. >>-- >>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > Article: 227754 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:49:08 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Homemade 440 yagi question References: Message-ID: Bart wrote: > I built a 6 element 432mhz yagi from instructions in the ARRL Handbook. I > used a 1" wood dowel for the beam and 1/4" aluminum rod for the elements. I > used a "T" match on the driven element. One on each side, just like the > illustrations show. And a 1/2 wavelength phasing line. > > But the instructions don't show or say if the driven element is split in the > middle. > > Shouldn't the driven element be split. > > NOT with a Tee match! Article: 227755 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Timothy@tholtom.freeserve.co.uk Subject: HELP!! More Antenna Noise Date: 7 Aug 2006 13:52:16 -0700 Message-ID: <1154983936.154592.20990@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> In an earlier post (see Help!! Antenna Noise), I detailed how I live on the 9th floor (top) of an appartment block, had built a 1/4 wave vertical antenna, using a balcony railing as the counterpoise. When the antenna was connected to my handheld Yaesu VR-500 receiver (scanner/comms receiver), the result was noise at 8+ S units... Two people very kindly responded to my original post, and suggested what I might do to find where the problem was. The antenna is picking up noise from somewhere (not the counterpoise or the connecting coax, they exhibit no noise when connected in isolation to the main antenna). Neither was the problem to do with the receiver being overwhelmed by the signal, as I drove into the countryside, setup the antenna, and the signal was fine... I then tried the following: 1) Connected the small helical antenna that comes with the VR-500 and the noise VANISHES. Good. 2) Connected a simple half metre telescopic antenna to the VR-500, and the noise returns. Not good... Question: The helical antenna with the VR-500 obviously has some kind of loading coil, at the BNC plug end. So I was wondering exactly what kind of loading/matching, would there be in this antenna, that is able to sucessfully kill the noise that plagues me here in Brussels, surrounded as I am by tram and train lines (assuming this is the problem of course)? Could I build something like this to filter the noise being picked up by my antenna? Any ideas? Circuit diagrams? Thanks!! Tim Article: 227756 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:35:45 -0500 Message-ID: <12dfchip21io6a7@corp.supernews.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <7ifcb2pnsk4dfm7sqgq0fk5o2blct6i9r7@4ax.com> <641db29d5dd2dsn4ofkgdc7dr02nq7ugr1@4ax.com> <44b69682$0$3634$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com> <44d7a423$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> L. wrote: > "David G. Nagel" wrote in message > news:12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com... > >>Ricke wrote: >> >> >>>Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation >>>factor is worth learning code >>> >>>Rick >>>N4NKR >>> >> >>If one wishes to operate legally on 11 meters do not use CW or tone CW. >>The only legal modes of communicating there is AM or SSB voice. Tone maybe >>used as an alerting mechanism but not for other methods of communication. >> >>Even though licenses are not required and most (not all) persons don't >>follow the regs there, if you are caught violating the regs there you can >>be refused an Amateur License. It can and does happen from time to time. >> >>Dave WD9BDZ > > > This is true! As the man said, tho most don't follow them - they DO exist. > They WILL be enforced - if so desired. Actually, an infraction of any radio > rule can deem you ineligible for not only an Amateur Licence but also any > other license from the FCC - even GROL. IF you hold a GROL and do something > stupid with it, it can cause your "amateur" license to be stripped. > Ignorance is no excuse. When you sign the forms - and your license(s) - you > agree to abide by the R/Rs. > > > Apparently if you have been convicted of a felony anything you can loose your license also. Dave WD9BDZ Article: 227757 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:37:21 -0500 Message-ID: <12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> TimBob wrote: > In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien > invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! > Tim N7XAU > Cecil Moore wrote: > >>Dave wrote: >> >>>C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know CW. >>>Does that mean we're virtually obsolete? >> >>My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never >>going to save the world. >>-- >>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > If I recall correctly the IDF officer said the US was communicating in "old fashioned morse code". Dave N Article: 227758 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <7ifcb2pnsk4dfm7sqgq0fk5o2blct6i9r7@4ax.com> <641db29d5dd2dsn4ofkgdc7dr02nq7ugr1@4ax.com> <44b69682$0$3634$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com> <44d7a423$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <12dfchip21io6a7@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: <44d7b5c7$0$6601$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:12dfchip21io6a7@corp.supernews.com... > L. wrote: >> "David G. Nagel" wrote in message >> news:12delfl7fg2g586@corp.supernews.com... >> >>>Ricke wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation >>>>factor is worth learning code >>>> >>>>Rick >>>>N4NKR >>>> >>> >>>If one wishes to operate legally on 11 meters do not use CW or tone CW. >>>The only legal modes of communicating there is AM or SSB voice. Tone >>>maybe used as an alerting mechanism but not for other methods of >>>communication. >>> >>>Even though licenses are not required and most (not all) persons don't >>>follow the regs there, if you are caught violating the regs there you can >>>be refused an Amateur License. It can and does happen from time to time. >>> >>>Dave WD9BDZ >> >> >> This is true! As the man said, tho most don't follow them - they DO >> exist. They WILL be enforced - if so desired. Actually, an infraction of >> any radio rule can deem you ineligible for not only an Amateur Licence >> but also any other license from the FCC - even GROL. IF you hold a GROL >> and do something stupid with it, it can cause your "amateur" license to >> be stripped. Ignorance is no excuse. When you sign the forms - and your >> license(s) - you agree to abide by the R/Rs. >> >> >> > > Apparently if you have been convicted of a felony anything you can loose > your license also. > > Dave WD9BDZ You're correct - and just a few days ago - there was a case of a "licensed" individual who "allegedly" molested children and was convicted - the FCC was debating renewing his license. So, it appears they take a dim view on "criminals" being "license" holders. I guess they feel if you can't obey the law of the land, why would you obey their rules and regulations! I wonder if they take into account any one who's been convicted and had "successful" rehab? That would be interesting to know. L. Article: 227759 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:51:14 -0400 Message-ID: <44d7b5c8$0$6601$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "David G. Nagel" wrote in message news:12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com... > TimBob wrote: > >> In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien >> invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! >> Tim N7XAU >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>>Dave wrote: >>> >>>>C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know CW. >>>>Does that mean we're virtually obsolete? >>> >>>My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never >>>going to save the world. >>>-- >>>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp >> >> > > > If I recall correctly the IDF officer said the US was communicating in > "old fashioned morse code". > > Dave N I once seen a copy of the "code" used by other countries. There were "some" - if not many differences. I also seen a copy of "supposedly" the old west code - used .......... Man, what a difference - IF ALL WERE TRUE - that is........ I'm only reporting what I seen, can't say for sure if true or not. It was interesting to say the least. Maybe - and I"m going on a limb here to guess - the "differences" in the other countries code - was short hand much like our Q signals. L. Article: 227760 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <6ic7d2diqkk5go86t8bo86ik3c43t3laco@4ax.com> <44d3b80f$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154726291.953345.94290@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1154806401.369014.158580@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1154850887.959554.15680@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:05:36 -0400 On 6 Aug 2006 00:54:48 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >nope handihams has no respect for LD's at all There's a difference between lack of ability and lack of desire. The latter is just plain laziness. Article: 227761 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Jim Kelley Subject: Re: neighborhood antenna restrictions Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 15:29:57 -0700 Message-ID: References: <43ivc2dimh39i9c79uus1a1thseoj48ke8@4ax.com> <0mc7d2di3vfh0q12jevrjdi1al2i7f6k3d@4ax.com> Bill Turner wrote: > Is Silverado a stealth community? Not anymore! I went to > > http://www.hometownlocator.com/City/Silverado-California.cfm > > and the map shows a bunch of towns, but not that one. You're right. It doesn't really exist. My zip code has a 'j' in front of it. ;-) > Actually, that might be good for a ham worried about Homeowners > Associations. :-) It's good if you don't mind having the horizon at +30 degrees elevation. BTW, sorry I confused you with another Bill - similar call. 73, ac6xg Article: 227762 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Richard Clark Subject: Re: HELP!! More Antenna Noise Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:03:43 -0700 Message-ID: References: <1154983936.154592.20990@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 7 Aug 2006 13:52:16 -0700, Timothy@tholtom.freeserve.co.uk wrote: >So I was wondering exactly what >kind of loading/matching, would there be in this antenna, that is able >to sucessfully kill the noise Hi Tim, Absolutely none. Try carrying your receiver around with that same small helical antenna attached, and turned on for monitoring. Walk through the hallways nearby your apartment on your floor, and the floors above and below you. Go outside and do the same around the block. All of this shouldn't take more than an hour and should be conclusive. As you go along, you might try alternating between the small helical antenna and the simple half metre telescopic antenna which does pull in this noise. Finally, what does the noise sound like? 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 227763 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? From: Slow Code References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <7ifcb2pnsk4dfm7sqgq0fk5o2blct6i9r7@4ax.com> <641db29d5dd2dsn4ofkgdc7dr02nq7ugr1@4ax.com> <44b69682$0$3634$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:28:21 GMT "Ricke" wrote in news:1154959745.516250.237570@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com: > Love it, get up on cb channels to do CW practice. The sheer irratation > factor is worth learning code > > Rick > N4NKR And some probably hear it and send back. the CB-Hams, A.K.A. Phonies. Article: 227764 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? From: Radio Buff References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 23:28:23 GMT "TimBob" wrote in news:1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com: > In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien > invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! > Tim N7XAU That movie was hokey. An alien invasion force with thousands of ships in orbit would need to use our satellites to communicate with each other. Yah, right. Sc Article: 227765 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 18:40:28 -0500 Message-ID: <12dfjrdjur4nn41@corp.supernews.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com> <44d7b5c8$0$6601$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> L. wrote: > "David G. Nagel" wrote in message > news:12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com... > >>TimBob wrote: >> >> >>>In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien >>>invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! >>>Tim N7XAU >>>Cecil Moore wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Dave wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>C'mon Cecil, you've been licensed as long as I have. I Know you Know CW. >>>>>Does that mean we're virtually obsolete? >>>> >>>>My favorite mode is CW and it's a fun mode but it is never >>>>going to save the world. >>>>-- >>>>73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp >>> >>> >> >>If I recall correctly the IDF officer said the US was communicating in >>"old fashioned morse code". >> >>Dave N > > > I once seen a copy of the "code" used by other countries. There were > "some" - if not many differences. I also seen a copy of "supposedly" the old > west code - used .......... Man, what a difference - IF ALL WERE TRUE - that > is........ I'm only reporting what I seen, can't say for sure if true or > not. It was interesting to say the least. > > Maybe - and I"m going on a limb here to guess - the "differences" in the > other countries code - was short hand much like our Q signals. > > L. > > Morse code as used by Western Union (when they did code) is different >from International Morse code as used by radio operators. Not very different but different. DN Article: 227766 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <12dfckjinvnqs05@corp.supernews.com> <44d7b5c8$0$6601$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 20:16:58 -0400 On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 17:51:14 -0400, "L." wrote: >I once seen a copy of the "code" used by other countries. There were >"some" - if not many differences. Because there are some differences in alphabets. > I also seen a copy of "supposedly" the old >west code - used .......... Man, what a difference - IF ALL WERE TRUE - that >is That's American Morse, as opposed to International Morse, which is used on the air. American Morse is composed of dots, dashes and spaces. (Spaces are parts of the letters, not just the spaces between them.) International Morse uses just dots and dashes - the spaces are just spaces. Article: 227767 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jerry Martes" References: <20060805141055.3e228a15@localhost> <20060805192158.3dcc97f1@localhost> <4Y7Bg.4475$gY6.477@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost> <6qHBg.9394$qw5.7976@trnddc06> Subject: Re: sat ant question Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 01:41:43 GMT "ml" wrote in message news:m-2CBB39.20562907082006@news.verizon.net... > In article <6qHBg.9394$qw5.7976@trnddc06>, > "Jerry Martes" wrote: > >> "ml" wrote in message >> news:m-3712CF.05314007082006@news.verizon.net... >> > Someone asked if i was referring to amateur sat's, yes i was referring >> > to the amateur sats exclusivly >> > >> > my question remains, so if i must loose one compass direction what >> > should it be? >> > >> > thanks >> >> Hi ml >> >> The least valuable compass direction for you is either East or West, if >> the satellites are Polar Orbiting Satellites. >> >> Jerry >> >> SNIP SNIP > > thanks very much, being a real newbie i have to ask one quick one > > so are 'most' of the sat's polar orbiting? Hi ml I thought all the amateur satellites were polar orbiting. But, I really am not sure. Perhaps you could Google then download Orbitron. That site will show you all the satellites and their location as well as their path prediction. I'd strongly recomend your contacting the AMSAT group. There are some very well informed guys there. I mentioned that you might be willing to let your building shadow either East or West only because there will statistically fewer times when satelites will be passing there. the majority of the passes will be within a sector to your North-South. You will have to consider what kind of communication you want. That is, if you are interested in communicating with someone in Europe, and you are located in Florida, you sure wouldnt want to block out satellites to your East. But, if you are in Maine, you may have little interest in communicating with stations to your North. Jerry Article: 227768 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: nmo antenna mount repair From: "danielle" Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 22:43:08 -0400 Message-ID: I had an NMO mount antenna on the roof of my truck that caught on an overhead door and was ripped out of its hole. The metal around the hole is now enlarged and too warped to put the NMO mount back. Does anyone know where I can get a rubber hole plug made to fit in the NMO mount hole? Or an antenna mount that will is slightly larger in diameter. So that I could enlarge the hole and then reinstall an NMO base antenna? I don't know exactly what I want to do, other than I do want an NMO mount in the roof of my truck. Does anybody have any other ideas on how to repair or replace this antenna mount? TIA Dan Yemiola AI8O Article: 227769 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: kaput829@gmail.com Subject: getting VHF channels not getting UHF channels Date: 7 Aug 2006 19:51:38 -0700 Message-ID: <1155005498.029136.108590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I am in the process of switching from cable tv to an antenna. I had an old antenna that i recently took down and just put up a new 80 inch boom external uhf/vhf/fm antenna. I get VHF channels perfectly, but when i get above channel 11 all i get is fuzz. I currently have the external antenna connected to a 4 way splitter and from that splitter my signal reaches my various tvs. I am assuming this is a simple problem with needing an adapter of some sorts. Any advice would be appreciated. Article: 227770 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Tam/WB2TT" References: <1155005498.029136.108590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: getting VHF channels not getting UHF channels Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 23:05:01 -0400 Message-ID: wrote in message news:1155005498.029136.108590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... >I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I am in > the process of switching from cable tv to an antenna. I had an old > antenna that i recently took down and just put up a new 80 inch boom > external uhf/vhf/fm antenna. I get VHF channels perfectly, but when i > get above channel 11 all i get is fuzz. I currently have the external > antenna connected to a 4 way splitter and from that splitter my signal > reaches my various tvs. I am assuming this is a simple problem with > needing an adapter of some sorts. Any advice would be appreciated. > Did you go into the menue and change the setting from CATV to Antenna? UHF channels do not line up with any cable channels. Tam Article: 227771 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: getting VHF channels not getting UHF channels Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:08:14 -0500 Message-ID: <12dg00v5nnblm48@corp.supernews.com> References: <1155005498.029136.108590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> kaput829@gmail.com wrote: > I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but I am in > the process of switching from cable tv to an antenna. I had an old > antenna that i recently took down and just put up a new 80 inch boom > external uhf/vhf/fm antenna. I get VHF channels perfectly, but when i > get above channel 11 all i get is fuzz. I currently have the external > antenna connected to a 4 way splitter and from that splitter my signal > reaches my various tvs. I am assuming this is a simple problem with > needing an adapter of some sorts. Any advice would be appreciated. > Have you told the TV that it is no longer on a cable? The cable channels are different from the regular broadcast ones and a switch must be made in the menu. Dave N Article: 227772 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 03:21:04 GMT Slow Code wrote: > dxAce wrote in > news:44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com: > > >> >>N9OGL wrote: >> >> >>>Not Lloyd wrote: >>> >>>> wrote in message >>>>news:LLXAg.308$f31.98@newsfe7-win.ntli.net... >>>>are you using an ex Ham transmitter? >>>>I hear with LSB/USB get further than AM but is the LSB really wide >>>>enough for quality audio? Got a grandpappys MP1000 here that will rag >>>>50 watts AM all day long, but the band width is to narrow for >>>>anything like nice music audio... Speech is nice though. Maybe there >>>>is a wider AM filter than stock, some Ham wizardry to make it fit a >>>>decent audio element on to the carrier, >>>> >>>>...................................................................... >>>> >>>>Transmitting on illegal frequencies with an illegal transceiver? >>>>Only stupid Toad would do that. >>>> >>>>Gather around the legal frequencies this evening at 14.331 as we get >>>>a forum of LEGAL Hams together to discuss the nefarious activities of >>>>Toad and Roger. Look for this forum to begin on or about nine p.m. >>>>eastern time. Toad cannot join in, nor can KB9RQZ, since they are not >>>>licensed for this freq. Roger needs no invitation...he will lurk and >>>>jam as he sees fit. >>> >>>Before you go around spouting that I'm running illegal, I would >>>suggestion that you read Part 15 (47 CFR 15) but more to the point 47 >>>CFR 15.225 >> >>How much power you running? Unable to hear you here, but I'll give a >>listen again tomorrow if you're still up and running. > > > > > 10000uV/m at 30m is the maximum. How much power into an isotropic > radiator give 10000uV/m at 30m. Of course, when the antenna has gain, > power has to be reduced to avoid illegal operation. > My guess is 3 mW. John Article: 227773 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: getting VHF channels not getting UHF channels References: <1155005498.029136.108590@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 03:28:26 GMT kaput829@gmail.com wrote: > I get VHF channels perfectly, but when i > get above channel 11 all i get is fuzz. Make sure your TV has "antenna" selected instead of "cable". I have the opposite problem. When I have a power failure, my TV reverts to "antenna" and I have to reset it back to "cable". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227774 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: nmo antenna mount repair From: Ed References: Message-ID: Date: 08 Aug 2006 03:59:04 GMT > > > Does anyone know where I can get a rubber hole plug made to fit in the > NMO mount hole? > During my career, I generally used Antenna Specialists rubber hole plugs, Part No. ASP K35 for your application. I'd recommend just plugging the hole and drilling a new one... not too close to the old one. Also would recommend a little Silicone RTV on the hole plug before installing. Do a Google search on the part for vendors, or you could stop by a local commercial radio maintenance shop and ask if they would sell you one. Ed K7AAT Article: 227775 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brenda Ann" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:12:06 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> "John - KD5YI" wrote in message news:AqTBg.55239$Lh4.46900@trnddc02... > Slow Code wrote: >> dxAce wrote in >> news:44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com: >>> >>>N9OGL wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Not Lloyd wrote: >>>> >>>>> wrote in message >>>>>news:LLXAg.308$f31.98@newsfe7-win.ntli.net... >>>>>are you using an ex Ham transmitter? >>>>>I hear with LSB/USB get further than AM but is the LSB really wide >>>>>enough for quality audio? Got a grandpappys MP1000 here that will rag >>>>>50 watts AM all day long, but the band width is to narrow for >>>>>anything like nice music audio... Speech is nice though. Maybe there >>>>>is a wider AM filter than stock, some Ham wizardry to make it fit a >>>>>decent audio element on to the carrier, >>>>>...................................................................... >>>>> >>>>>Transmitting on illegal frequencies with an illegal transceiver? >>>>>Only stupid Toad would do that. >>>>> >>>>>Gather around the legal frequencies this evening at 14.331 as we get >>>>>a forum of LEGAL Hams together to discuss the nefarious activities of >>>>>Toad and Roger. Look for this forum to begin on or about nine p.m. >>>>>eastern time. Toad cannot join in, nor can KB9RQZ, since they are not >>>>>licensed for this freq. Roger needs no invitation...he will lurk and >>>>>jam as he sees fit. >>>> >>>>Before you go around spouting that I'm running illegal, I would >>>>suggestion that you read Part 15 (47 CFR 15) but more to the point 47 >>>>CFR 15.225 >>> >>>How much power you running? Unable to hear you here, but I'll give a >>>listen again tomorrow if you're still up and running. >> >> >> >> >> 10000uV/m at 30m is the maximum. How much power into an isotropic >> radiator give 10000uV/m at 30m. Of course, when the antenna has gain, >> power has to be reduced to avoid illegal operation. > > > My guess is 3 mW. > > John The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this paragraph is based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. (b) The field strength of any emissions which appear outside of this band shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in Sec. 15.209. I don't know that there is a difference anymore between Part 95 and Part 15 emissions in the CB band... the old Part 15, back when a license was required, used to be 100mW. Article: 227776 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: HELP!! More Antenna Noise Message-ID: <0k4gd25v4a9foc9v1o3n58pso1ce1dm7ac@4ax.com> References: <1154983936.154592.20990@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 00:31:34 -0400 On 7 Aug 2006 13:52:16 -0700, Timothy@tholtom.freeserve.co.uk wrote: >Could I build something like this to filter the noise being picked up >by my antenna? Any ideas? Circuit diagrams? > >Thanks!! > >Tim A SHOT IN THE DARK!!! This doesn't answer your question, but another.... What might be causing the noise? I had a couple of different 2 meter whip antennas with a base load for the ht. One developed a problem with a bad solder joint which created a diode effect, which acted like a receiver. It messed up my receive something terrible. It never happened with the other antennas, but they were built similarly. The rubber duck doesn't have the tuning capacitor etc to match it as the whips did. I think my antennas worked opposite yours. I had the 5/8 go bad and the rubber duck work fine. Other 1/2 wave and an unknown length whip work well without a problem. The 1/2 wave and 5/8 wave whips both had tuning circuits in them. Good luck Buck n4pgw -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 227777 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:12:14 -0700 Message-ID: <12dg79hib3k0qdc@corp.supernews.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> Brenda Ann wrote: > "John - KD5YI" wrote in message >> . . . >> My guess is 3 mW. >> >> John > > The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: > > > Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. > > (a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not exceed > 10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this paragraph is > based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The > provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. > . . . The amount of power applied to an isotropic radiator which will generate 10,000 uV/m at 3 meters is 30 microwatts. This assumes that the 3 meter distance is in the far field, or that it's measured in the far field and extrapolated to 3 meters as though 3 meters were in the far field, which is the method and assumption used by the FCC. A simple dipole reduces the permissible power to about 23 uW, and ground reflections will typically nearly double the field strength, so a safe power level would be about 6 microwatts into a dipole antenna over ground for someone interested in conforming to the regulations. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 227778 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: VOA SWLer Subject: *FREE* Tours of the VOICE of AMERICA Radio & TV Studios in Washington, Date: 8 Aug 2006 07:01:01 GMT Message-ID: For information about tours of the Voice of America radio and television studios at their headquarters in Washington, DC, click on: . There is no charge. Article: 227779 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44D8743E.30308@bloomer.net> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:23:42 +0000 From: Scott Subject: Re: Homemade 440 yagi question References: No, the driven element can be one solid piece...you just connect the shields of the "phasing line" to the driven element right where they exit on each side of the boom. The centers of the phasing line connect to each side of the T match where they come out of the boom. The T match sections ARE split. That's how I did my 222 yagi that I took out of the ARRL antenna book (the old NBS designs). Scott N0EDV Bart wrote: > I built a 6 element 432mhz yagi from instructions in the ARRL Handbook. I > used a 1" wood dowel for the beam and 1/4" aluminum rod for the elements. I > used a "T" match on the driven element. One on each side, just like the > illustrations show. And a 1/2 wavelength phasing line. > > But the instructions don't show or say if the driven element is split in the > middle. > > Shouldn't the driven element be split. > > Article: 227780 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" Subject: Engineers Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100 Message-ID: Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit and describe what it does, how it works. These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! ==================================== Amendment - For "circuit" read "antenna". "Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) ==================================== Article: 227781 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: Subject: Re: Engineers Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 11:09:44 -0500 Message-ID: <44d8b678_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:XqudnQDHUaDwP0XZnZ2dnUVZ8qWdnZ2d@bt.com... > Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. > > But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit > and describe what it does, how it works. > > These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! > ==================================== > Amendment - > > For "circuit" read "antenna". > > "Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) > > ==================================== > > Article: 227782 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:26:32 -0400 On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" wrote: >Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. > >But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit >and describe what it does, how it works. > >These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! >==================================== >Amendment - > >For "circuit" read "antenna". > >"Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) > >==================================== > Hello Reg, I haven't previously tried to attach a jpg file in this arena, but I'm going to try. If my jpg file comes through, can you describe what it does and how it works? Walt, W2DU Article: 227783 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:biehd215ddsv1h1r5aojrdch9vt5cnkrdt@4ax.com... > On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" > > wrote: > >>Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. >> >>But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit >>and describe what it does, how it works. >> >>These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! >>==================================== >>Amendment - >> >>For "circuit" read "antenna". >> >>"Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) >> >>==================================== >> > Hello Reg, > > I haven't previously tried to attach a jpg file in this arena, but I'm > going to > try. If my jpg file comes through, can you describe what it does and how > it > works? > > Walt, W2DU Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to prevent such postings. Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this is completed I can try some high frequency models. Frank Article: 227784 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) - Photo 16a.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 12:57:39 -0400 On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: >"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message >news:biehd215ddsv1h1r5aojrdch9vt5cnkrdt@4ax.com... >> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" >> >> wrote: >> >>>Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. >>> >>>But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit >>>and describe what it does, how it works. >>> >>>These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! >>>==================================== >>>Amendment - >>> >>>For "circuit" read "antenna". >>> >>>"Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) >>> >>>==================================== >>> >> Hello Reg, >> >> I haven't previously tried to attach a jpg file in this arena, but I'm >> going to >> try. If my jpg file comes through, can you describe what it does and how >> it >> works? >> >> Walt, W2DU > >Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >prevent such postings. > >Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >is completed I can try some high frequency models. > >Frank > > > Article: 227785 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: References: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:02:10 -0400 On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: >"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message >news:biehd215ddsv1h1r5aojrdch9vt5cnkrdt@4ax.com... >> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" >> >> wrote: >> >>>Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. >>> >>>But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit >>>and describe what it does, how it works. >>> >>>These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! >>>==================================== >>>Amendment - >>> >>>For "circuit" read "antenna". >>> >>>"Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) >>> >>>==================================== >>> >> Hello Reg, >> >> I haven't previously tried to attach a jpg file in this arena, but I'm >> going to >> try. If my jpg file comes through, can you describe what it does and how >> it >> works? >> >> Walt, W2DU > >Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >prevent such postings. > >Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >is completed I can try some high frequency models. > >Frank > Hi Frank, I used the 'help' menu in Agent, but it doesn't seem to let me post an attachment. Guess, like you said, it must be an NG rule that prevents it. Anyhoo, jist fertheleovit, I'm going to email you the jpg file fyi. Walt, W2DU Article: 227786 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: <35hhd2lu36sol32f1p64gi7ofottdu72gd@4ax.com> References: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:08:37 -0400 On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: >"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message > >Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >prevent such postings. > >Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >is completed I can try some high frequency models. > >Frank > Frank, I tried to send the jpg file to you via email, but the server rejects your address. Can you email me so I can have your correct address? Walt Article: 227787 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:16:38 GMT > Hi Frank, > > I used the 'help' menu in Agent, but it doesn't seem to let me post an > attachment. Guess, like you said, it must be an NG rule that prevents it. > Anyhoo, jist fertheleovit, I'm going to email you the jpg file fyi. > > Walt, W2DU Yes Walt, I got a message in the send window that said the NG rejected it. Don't forget to removed the "nospam." from my e-mail address, also note the period after the "m"., which must also be removed. Will be curious to see the jpeg, but doubt I will be smart enough to figure it out. Thanks, Frank Article: 227788 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:19:51 -0500 Message-ID: <44d8c6ee_1@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05F9_01C6BAE4.F2B92E90 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Frank's" wrote > Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. > Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to > prevent such postings. _________ Gents, I've been able attach graphics to postings on r.r.a.a. using Outlook Express and my normal ISP. The graphic shows with the display of the message. So there does not appear to be a universal NG filter, anyway. Attached is a test case. Walt - if you want to email me your jpg, I think I'll be able to post it here for you. 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Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 12:33:28 -0500 Message-ID: <44d8ca33_5@newsfeed.slurp.net> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_063A_01C6BAE6.D9D0C4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Richard Fry" wrote: > Walt - if you want to email me your jpg, I think I'll be able > to post it here for you. ________________ Here is Walt's circuit drawing (see attached). Walt pointed out that his original filename was incorrect -- it's really Photo 16A. 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rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Richard Clark Subject: Re: Engineers Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 11:11:08 -0700 Message-ID: References: On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" wrote: >Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. Hi Reggie, You prove you can write in English, but equally proven is that this post is as obscure as reading Beowulf. However, it is equally notable that most English speakers have some of the poorest grammar: >These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! where possessive case substitutes for plurals. Is this the standard troll, or whining? Do you somehow feel disappointed that Engineers don't create art? Has your esteem for British luminaries suddenly dimmed by their lack of imagination? I for one cannot imagine Bill Thomson sitting on a Parisian sidewalk doing chalk copies of renaissance art - unless he was anticipating your holiday so as to wing that chalk off your noggin. Or perhaps you pine for the lost opportunity of Auguste Rodin sculpting Pascal code out of marble. Whoops! A frog there. Perhaps a Tom Gainsborough sloshing the paint to rummage up an astable multivibrator. Oh for the days when they were mostly Toms, Bills, and Augustes.... and Marcels - "À la Recherche du Temps Perdu" Now there's a French sleeping pill no engineer would copy. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Article: 227791 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) References: Message-ID: <3x4Cg.6073$uo6.1755@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 18:15:27 GMT Frank's wrote: > Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to > prevent such postings. Yep, this newsgroup was chartered as ASCII only. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227792 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "noexqs" Subject: Re: Spreadsheet for Yagi-Uda array of loops Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:55:42 +0200 Message-ID: <12dhni3adgj0uee@corp.supernews.com> References: <20060805171848.3a8f7cf6@localhost> Hi Dominique, I doubt that your spreadsheet will give accurate design information for actual design. As you already mentioned, it has it's limitations since it will not give gain, f/b and antenne impedance as a function of operating frequency. I have done quite a lot of loop yagi antenna modelling in NEC2 and MMANA and I found out that the loop yagi performance is infuenced quite dramatically by the physical dimensions of the individual loops and their relative position. I have not mentioned the effect of the element diameter. In addition I have built several loop yagi's. Testresult of my 6 element 2m loop yagi can be found on the internet (google: loop yagi pe2wdo). If you are interested I can send some design details of my loopyagi design. Best regards, Willem PE2WDO "Dominique Michel" schreef in bericht news:20060805171848.3a8f7cf6@localhost... > Hi all, > > I have done a spreadsheet for the calculation of Yagi-Uda array of > loops. You can get it on internet at > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/index.html > > Sorry it is in french, a direct link to the page where the spreadsheet > reside is: > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/antennes1.html > > It is 2 versions, the original one for gnumeric at > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/Antenne%20multicadres.gnumeric > and another one for excel at > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/Antenne%20multicadre.xls > > I have tested the excel version only with openoffice (I use linux at home) > and it worked. > > I have done a TV RX antenna on 487.25 MHz with just a few wood stick and > some coaxial cable. It took me 2 hours of job, and I was able to receive > with the color a channel I was just able to receive in black and white and > a lot of snow with the biggest Wisi UHF antenna. > > Such an antenna can outperform any commercial antenna. It will just become > bigger as you get down in frequency. As example, a five elements 27MHz > will do 9.5 meter length for a diameter of the active element of 3,89 > meters. > > Any comments are welcome. > I will appreciate very much If someone can take a look on my English and > correct it. Just drop me a word or two. > > Dominique Article: 227793 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Antonio Vernucci" References: <44d0e1b6$0$35077$4fafbaef@reader4.news.tin.it> <1154555654.618018.192280@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154575669.483390.122580@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1154610189.274197.177730@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44d252bd$0$35072$4fafbaef@reader4.news.tin.it> <44d45010$0$35074$4fafbaef@reader4.news.tin.it> <1154790677.995708.44390@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d6057e$0$35081$4fafbaef@reader4.news.tin.it> Subject: Re: Question on carbon fibre fishing rod Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:15:24 +0200 Message-ID: <44d8e2d2$0$15875$4fafbaef@reader2.news.tin.it> Sorry I will not be able to do the test before some time. I will report later. Tony I0JX "Antonio Vernucci" ha scritto nel messaggio = news:44d6057e$0$35081$4fafbaef@reader4.news.tin.it... Hi Dan thanks for your in-depth analysis on EZ-NEC. The only step that surpises = me a bit is that, with the top and bottom shorting wires in place, the = current through the rod gets quite high, almost 2/3 that of the wire. On = the other hand is always difficult to predict reality when = electromagnetic phenomena are involved. The next test you suggested, i.e. with the wire fully insulated from the = rod, is just what I had in mind to do. A spacing of about 1-inch would = be easy to get, by sliding the copper wire through the rings where the = fishing nylon wire is supposed to run. So I'll do that first. I have a = good quantity of silver-plated teflon-coated wire, so will try with that = as it will stand a fairly voltage. I should be able to make that test by = next monday or tuesday afternoon, and I will report results here. 73 Tony I0JX ha scritto nel messaggio = news:1154790677.995708.44390@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Tony, >=20 > >From an EZNEC model with essentially the situation you described: > Wire numbers 2 and 5 are both 7.9m high, frequency 10MHz, fed against = a > radial system in free space. >=20 > Wire number 2 is 25.4mm diameter, 21 segments, a 10 ohm load in each > segment, total "rod resistance" 210 ohms + negligable copper loss. = The > wire centers are 7cm apart. Wire number 5 is 2mm diameter copper. > Wires 2 and 5 are shorted together top and bottom (no contact along = the > length, but maybe we can see why you had arcing) >=20 > As you can see below, the currents in the two "wires" with the top and > bottom shorted are not in phase. Moreover, the current in the rod > (Wire No. 2) is quite appreciable, almost 2/3 that of the wire. >=20 >=20 > Wire No. 2: > Segment Conn Magnitude (A.) Phase (Deg.) > te1 W4E1 .39744 -167.9 > 2 .40049 -168.9 > 3 .39918 -169.3 > 4 .39463 -169.2 > 5 .38725 -168.8 > 6 .3773 -168.1 > 7 .36499 -166.9 > 8 .35056 -165.4 > 9 .33425 -163.5 > 10 .31635 -161.0 > 11 .29723 -157.9 > 12 .27734 -154.0 > 13 .25727 -149.2 > 14 .23781 -143.2 > 15 .22002 -135.8 > 16 .20528 -126.8 > 17 .19529 -116.1 > 18 .19188 -104.1 > 19 .19661 -91.39 > 20 .21058 -78.89 > 21 W3E1 .23611 -66.69 >=20 > Wire No. 5: > Segment Conn Magnitude (A.) Phase (Deg.) > 1 W6E1 .64698 170.23 > 2 .66204 169.08 > 3 .67227 168.00 > 4 .67834 166.94 > 5 .68045 165.86 > 6 .67871 164.76 > 7 .6732 163.63 > 8 .66403 162.44 > 9 .6513 161.18 > 10 .63513 159.83 > 11 .61567 158.39 > 12 .59307 156.82 > 13 .56752 155.11 > 14 .53922 153.20 > 15 .50842 151.06 > 16 .47537 148.63 > 17 .44036 145.82 > 18 .40374 142.51 > 19 .36589 138.50 > 20 .32725 133.51 > 21 W3E2 .28776 126.90 >=20 > So how's the loss? Well, here's the table of load data: >=20 >=20 > Frequency =3D 10 MHz >=20 > Load 1 Voltage =3D 14.71 V. at -167.86 deg. > Current =3D 1.471 A. at -167.86 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 21.62 watts >=20 > Load 2 Voltage =3D 14.82 V. at -168.9 deg. > Current =3D 1.482 A. at -168.9 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 21.96 watts >=20 > Load 3 Voltage =3D 14.77 V. at -169.29 deg. > Current =3D 1.477 A. at -169.29 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 21.81 watts >=20 > Load 4 Voltage =3D 14.6 V. at -169.24 deg. > Current =3D 1.46 A. at -169.24 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 21.32 watts >=20 > Load 5 Voltage =3D 14.33 V. at -168.83 deg. > Current =3D 1.433 A. at -168.83 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 20.53 watts >=20 > Load 6 Voltage =3D 13.96 V. at -168.07 deg. > Current =3D 1.396 A. at -168.07 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 19.49 watts >=20 > Load 7 Voltage =3D 13.5 V. at -166.95 deg. > Current =3D 1.35 A. at -166.95 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 18.24 watts >=20 > Load 8 Voltage =3D 12.97 V. at -165.43 deg. > Current =3D 1.297 A. at -165.43 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 16.82 watts >=20 > Load 9 Voltage =3D 12.37 V. at -163.46 deg. > Current =3D 1.237 A. at -163.46 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 15.29 watts >=20 > Load 10 Voltage =3D 11.7 V. at -160.97 deg. > Current =3D 1.17 A. at -160.97 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 13.7 watts >=20 > Load 11 Voltage =3D 11 V. at -157.86 deg. > Current =3D 1.1 A. at -157.86 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 12.09 watts >=20 > Load 12 Voltage =3D 10.26 V. at -153.99 deg. > Current =3D 1.026 A. at -153.99 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 10.53 watts >=20 > Load 13 Voltage =3D 9.519 V. at -149.17 deg. > Current =3D 0.9519 A. at -149.17 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 9.061 watts >=20 > Load 14 Voltage =3D 8.799 V. at -143.19 deg. > Current =3D 0.8799 A. at -143.19 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 7.742 watts >=20 > Load 15 Voltage =3D 8.141 V. at -135.8 deg. > Current =3D 0.8141 A. at -135.8 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 6.627 watts >=20 > Load 16 Voltage =3D 7.595 V. at -126.79 deg. > Current =3D 0.7595 A. at -126.79 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 5.769 watts >=20 > Load 17 Voltage =3D 7.226 V. at -116.11 deg. > Current =3D 0.7226 A. at -116.11 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 5.221 watts >=20 > Load 18 Voltage =3D 7.099 V. at -104.08 deg. > Current =3D 0.7099 A. at -104.08 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 5.04 watts >=20 > Load 19 Voltage =3D 7.274 V. at -91.39 deg. > Current =3D 0.7274 A. at -91.39 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 5.292 watts >=20 > Load 20 Voltage =3D 7.791 V. at -78.88 deg. > Current =3D 0.7791 A. at -78.88 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 6.071 watts >=20 > Load 21 Voltage =3D 8.736 V. at -66.69 deg. > Current =3D 0.8736 A. at -66.69 deg. > Impedance =3D 10 + J 0 ohms > Power =3D 7.632 watts >=20 > Total applied power =3D 1535 watts >=20 > Total load power =3D 271.9 watts > Total load loss =3D 0.846 dB >=20 > The situation is VERY much improved by simply removing the top and > bottom shorting wires (this changes the base impedance very much, by > the way. I adjusted the source to still give ~1500 watts applied) >=20 > Total applied power =3D 1576 watts >=20 > Total load power =3D 30.53 watts > Total load loss =3D 0.085 dB >=20 > The current in the two wires isn't in phase either, but the average > magnitude of the current in the rod is more than a factor of ten below > the average magnitude of current in the wire. >=20 > So, space the wire a couple of inches out from the rod with insulators > and you should be fine, except, as Reg said before, where the rod is > 1/2 wavelength long. >=20 > If you still get heating, I suppose you'll just have to use the rod as > a center support for an inverted-vee antenna or something! >=20 > The arcing is coming from the fact that the currents are out-of-phase > by some amount (40 degrees) in the two conductors... and so are the > voltages... you get a potential difference between a point on the wire > and the corresponding point on the rod. I doubt it's sufficient to > jump any distance air gap, it's more that the carbon can't take the > current that wants to flow between the rod and wire and is burning, = but > that's just a guess, and you know how good my guess was originally. >=20 > Dan > Article: 227794 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <12dg79hib3k0qdc@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:18:30 GMT Roy Lewallen wrote: > Brenda Ann wrote: > >> "John - KD5YI" wrote in message >> >>> . . . > > >>> My guess is 3 mW. >>> >>> John >> >> >> The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: >> >> >> Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. >> >> (a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not >> exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this >> paragraph is based on measurement instrumentation employing an average >> detector. The provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. >> . . . > > > The amount of power applied to an isotropic radiator which will generate > 10,000 uV/m at 3 meters is 30 microwatts. This assumes that the 3 meter > distance is in the far field, or that it's measured in the far field and > extrapolated to 3 meters as though 3 meters were in the far field, which > is the method and assumption used by the FCC. > > A simple dipole reduces the permissible power to about 23 uW, and ground > reflections will typically nearly double the field strength, so a safe > power level would be about 6 microwatts into a dipole antenna over > ground for someone interested in conforming to the regulations. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL > Hey, Roy - My 3 mW answer was for 30 meters. I think that ratios correctly to your 30 microwatts at 3 meters. Yes? John Article: 227795 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <12dhv293ld0687a@corp.supernews.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <12dg79hib3k0qdc@corp.supernews.com> John - KD5YI wrote: > > Hey, Roy - > > My 3 mW answer was for 30 meters. I think that ratios correctly to your > 30 microwatts at 3 meters. Yes? Yep, that's right. And I finally got curious enough to look up the actual regulation. According to section 15.225(a), intentional radiators at 13.553-13.567 MHz are allowed 15,848 uV/m at 30 meters, which is about 4.75 mW to an isotropic antenna in free space. There's also a 0.01% frequency stability requirement which would imply crystal control. And any emissions extending outside the band have to be about 54 dB lower, 30 uV/m at 30 m. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 227796 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Allodoxaphobia Subject: Re: Engineers Date: 8 Aug 2006 21:32:42 GMT Message-ID: References: On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, Reg Edwards wrote: > Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. I wish you would cease the TROLLing whenever you get bored... I know there are soooooo many easy foils here for your outbursts. But, just because a thing is do-able does not mean it should be done. Jonesy -- Marvin L Jones | jonz | W3DHJ | linux 38.24N 104.55W | @ config.com | Jonesy | OS/2 *** Killfiling google posts: Article: 227797 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Dan Richardson Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:34:50 -0700 Message-ID: References: On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT, "Frank's" wrote: [snip] > >Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >prevent such postings. > >Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >is completed I can try some high frequency models. > >Frank Walt was nice enough to send me the graphic and, so others can see it, I've placed it on my web page for your viewing pleasure. http://k6mhe.com/sub/w2du_engineering.jpg Note: This will available for about 30 days. Danny, K6MHE Article: 227798 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Dan Richardson Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) - Photo 16a.jpg (0/1) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:37:45 -0700 Message-ID: References: >> >>Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >>Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >>prevent such postings. >> >>Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >>of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >>is completed I can try some high frequency models. >> >>Frank >> >> Walt was nice enough to send me the graphic and, so others can see it, I've placed it on my web page for your viewing pleasure. http://k6mhe.com/sub/w2du_engineering.jpg Note: This will available for about 30 days. Danny, K6MHE Article: 227799 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Richard Clark Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:57:56 -0700 Message-ID: References: On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 14:34:50 -0700, Dan Richardson wrote: >Walt was nice enough to send me the graphic and, so others can see it, >I've placed it on my web page for your viewing pleasure. > >http://k6mhe.com/sub/w2du_engineering.jpg "There cannot be a greater mistake than that of looking superciliously upon practical applications of science. The life and soul of science is its practical application." - Bill Thomson Article: 227800 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:19:38 +0000 From: Scott Subject: Re: Engineers References: Message-ID: Ya, but...5 out of 4 engineers are dyslexic... Scott N0EDV Reg Edwards wrote: > Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. > > But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit > and describe what it does, how it works. > > These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! > ==================================== > Amendment - > > For "circuit" read "antenna". > > "Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) > > ==================================== > > Article: 227801 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "TF3KX" Subject: Aluminum welding wire (AlMg3) for radials on galvanized metal roof? Date: 8 Aug 2006 15:40:43 -0700 Message-ID: <1155076843.566944.91920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> I am about to mount a vertical on a galvanized sheet metal roof. There are indications that this roof, while farily new and in good shape, may not be a sufficiently good enough ground plane by itself. So, I will additionally lay radial wires on the roof. For this I select aluminum, as I expect (a) low corrosion when touching the zinc-galvanized iron, and (b) good conductivity of the aluminum. Readily available aluminum wire would be the kind used for welding, sold as AlMg3 (aluminum with 3% manganese). Does anyone have expericence or comments on using this type of wire? Such as: - The expected RF conductivity? (brief research indicates not much less than pure Al) - Corrosion resistance of this material (by itself)? - Corrosion resistance in contact with galvanized iron? Other comments? 73 - Kristinn, TF3KX Article: 227802 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "TF3KX" Subject: Galvanized iron - a poor ground plane? Date: 8 Aug 2006 15:49:15 -0700 Message-ID: <1155077355.214250.181090@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> I have been considering a vertical setup on the top of my galvanized sheet metal roof and using the roof as a ground plane. My brief tests so far indicate that the performance of such a setup does not deliver as strong signals to my RX as my simple inverted-V. Nevertheless, my roof is only 2 years old, still in good condition and with well overlapping sheets. There may be various reasons for this, but it has occurred to me that the galvanized roof may not be such a good RF-conductor. Due to the skin effect much of the current would run in the zinc coating, for which I do not have much information on as far as RF-conductivity goes. Does anyone have a comment or suggestions on this? By the way, I am going to try to lay additional wire radials (aluminum welding wire) on this roof, which is the subject of a post I just sent out before this one. 73 - Kristinn, TF3KX Article: 227803 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: nmo antenna mount repair From: "danielle" Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 18:51:05 -0400 Message-ID: References: OK FB thank you!!!!!!! Dan AI8O "Ed" wrote in message news:Xns9818D5AF8DE87spectrumhogstarbandn@198.186.192.196... > > >> >> >> Does anyone know where I can get a rubber hole plug made to fit in the >> NMO mount hole? >> > > > During my career, I generally used Antenna Specialists rubber hole > plugs, Part No. ASP K35 for your application. I'd recommend just > plugging the hole and drilling a new one... not too close to the old one. > Also would recommend a little Silicone RTV on the hole plug before > installing. Do a Google search on the part for vendors, or you could > stop by a local commercial radio maintenance shop and ask if they would > sell you one. > > > Ed K7AAT Article: 227804 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:01:22 +0200 From: Dominique Michel Subject: Re: Spreadsheet for Yagi-Uda array of loops Message-ID: <20060809010122.574645d5@localhost> References: <20060805171848.3a8f7cf6@localhost> Le Tue, 8 Aug 2006 20:55:42 +0200, "noexqs" a écrit : > Hi Dominique, > > I doubt that your spreadsheet will give accurate design information for > actual design. > As you already mentioned, it has it's limitations since it will not give > gain, f/b and antenne impedance as > a function of operating frequency. It is not a broadband antenna, but a channel antenna. On the central frequency, you will get a resistive impedance in all cases with it (, so it must be very easy to interface it with a transmission line. I just trust the Balanis. The antenna is optimized for the maximum forward gain, but the calculation of that gain is not in this book. It use other references as some IEEE papers and I don't have them. A. Shoamanesh and L. Shafai, "Properties of Coaxial Yagi Loop Arrays" and "Design Data for Coaxial Yagi Array of Circular Loops" > > I have done quite a lot of loop yagi antenna modelling in NEC2 and MMANA and > I found out > that the loop yagi performance is infuenced quite dramatically by the > physical dimensions of the > individual loops and their relative position. I have not mentioned the > effect of the element diameter. > I have done only a few test with the NEC2 software. I know at the original NEC2 code is quite old now. The theory in the balanis is very recent, and I trust more my own calculation based on the Balanis as the NEC2 calculation. I don't know MMANA, so I cannot speak about it. > In addition I have built several loop yagi's. Testresult of my 6 element 2m > loop yagi can be > found on the internet (google: loop yagi pe2wdo). > I found a 2005.xls file with a comparison between different antennas, among them a few loop yagi. What's look strange to me is at you get a gain of 9,2 dB with a 144MHz loop yagi 7 elements, and 10,8 dB with a yagi 7 elements. According to Balanis, it must be the contrary. The loop yagi must have more gain as the dipole or linear yagi. But maybe at you have another optimisation as for the max forward gain. > If you are interested I can send some design details of my loopyagi design. > I will really appreciate it, thank you. Dominique > Best regards, > > Willem > PE2WDO > > > > "Dominique Michel" schreef in bericht > news:20060805171848.3a8f7cf6@localhost... > > Hi all, > > > > I have done a spreadsheet for the calculation of Yagi-Uda array of > > loops. You can get it on internet at > > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/index.html > > > > Sorry it is in french, a direct link to the page where the spreadsheet > > reside is: > > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/antennes1.html > > > > It is 2 versions, the original one for gnumeric at > > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/Antenne%20multicadres.gnumeric > > and another one for excel at > > http://home.citycable.ch/monde-meilleur/antennes/Antenne%20multicadre.xls > > > > I have tested the excel version only with openoffice (I use linux at home) > > and it worked. > > > > I have done a TV RX antenna on 487.25 MHz with just a few wood stick and > > some coaxial cable. It took me 2 hours of job, and I was able to receive > > with the color a channel I was just able to receive in black and white and > > a lot of snow with the biggest Wisi UHF antenna. > > > > Such an antenna can outperform any commercial antenna. It will just become > > bigger as you get down in frequency. As example, a five elements 27MHz > > will do 9.5 meter length for a diameter of the active element of 3,89 > > meters. > > > > Any comments are welcome. > > I will appreciate very much If someone can take a look on my English and > > correct it. Just drop me a word or two. > > > > Dominique > > Article: 227805 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1155077355.214250.181090@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Galvanized iron - a poor ground plane? Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:21:04 +0100 Message-ID: <0r6dnZki4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> The RF resistance of the galvanized steel roof will be sensibly zero due to the very large area of the 'skin'. (relative to diameter of radial wires). If you wish to use radials they may just as well be attached to the edges of the roof. This will effectively increase the area of a small roof. The difference in received signal strength compared with an inverted-V is probably due to the difference in polarisation. A vertical on the roof may be better for DX. ---- Reg, G4FGQ Article: 227806 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 00:45:20 +0100 Message-ID: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> > Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model > of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this > is completed I can try some high frequency models. > > Frank ========================================= Frank, don't forget to use a 1/4-wave vertical when calculating efficiency. I assume you always include the power in the ground wave in the total power radiated when calculating efficiency. I think radial length intervals of 0.5 metres will be OK for 100 or more radials. ---- Reg. Article: 227807 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Dale Parfitt" References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <12dg79hib3k0qdc@corp.supernews.com> <12dhv293ld0687a@corp.supernews.com> <_z9Cg.6272$0e5.3510@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 00:30:41 GMT > > > So if N9OGL's transmitions are legal power wise, he would basically be > broadcasting for the kids across the street. Maybe he could take song > requests. They can just shout out their front doors what songs they want > him to play. > > SC I can copy perhaps 8 beacons on 13.555 MHz from all across the U.S. Assuming they too are running the power level Roy calculated, N9OGL's beacon should also be copyable. Dale W4OP Article: 227808 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: r2000swler@hotmail.com Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 8 Aug 2006 17:42:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1155084138.479750.122920@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Slow Code wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote in > news:12dhv293ld0687a@corp.supernews.com: > > > So if N9OGL's transmitions are legal power wise, he would basically be > broadcasting for the kids across the street. Maybe he could take song > requests. They can just shout out their front doors what songs they want > him to play. > > SC Not true. I have an AM "beacon" running some test groups smack dab in the middle of the HiFer/ISM 22M allocation. At maximum power I am at the legal limit. Most of my tests are -20dB from that level and I have copied my "becaon" from over 100 miles away twice. I was -6dB down from max, and was rather shocked. Don't rule out the odd fluke path. If you ever hear a YL reading a set of word pairs each followed by a ID nubmber in cut morse, that is my odd little station. I normally keep the power -63dB down from max legal, and only boast it while actually conducting tests. Terry in central KY Article: 227809 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Galvanized iron - a poor ground plane? Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:28:12 -0700 Message-ID: <12dii1uhvmnam33@corp.supernews.com> References: <1155077355.214250.181090@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> TF3KX wrote: > I have been considering a vertical setup on the top of my galvanized > sheet metal roof and using the roof as a ground plane. My brief tests > so far indicate that the performance of such a setup does not deliver > as strong signals to my RX as my simple inverted-V. Nevertheless, my > roof is only 2 years old, still in good condition and with well > overlapping sheets. > > There may be various reasons for this, but it has occurred to me that > the galvanized roof may not be such a good RF-conductor. Due to the > skin effect much of the current would run in the zinc coating, for > which I do not have much information on as far as RF-conductivity goes. > Does anyone have a comment or suggestions on this? The surface area is so large that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between zinc and a perfect conductor. > By the way, I am going to try to lay additional wire radials (aluminum > welding wire) on this roof, which is the subject of a post I just sent > out before this one. That doesn't make any sense to me, unless you're concerned about the quality of the contact between sheets. Even then, I'd think that the capacitance would be adequate. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 227810 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: Aluminum welding wire (AlMg3) for radials on galvanized metal Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 19:32:21 -0700 Message-ID: <12dii9olmpj55d6@corp.supernews.com> References: <1155076843.566944.91920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> TF3KX wrote: > I am about to mount a vertical on a galvanized sheet metal roof. There > are indications that this roof, while farily new and in good shape, may > not be a sufficiently good enough ground plane by itself. So, I will > additionally lay radial wires on the roof. For this I select aluminum, > as I expect (a) low corrosion when touching the zinc-galvanized iron, > and (b) good conductivity of the aluminum. > > Readily available aluminum wire would be the kind used for welding, > sold as AlMg3 (aluminum with 3% manganese). Does anyone have > expericence or comments on using this type of wire? Such as: > > - The expected RF conductivity? (brief research indicates not much > less than pure Al) The surface area of the wire is great enough that you won't be able to tell the difference between it and a perfect conductor. But it will still have more resistance than the roof. > - Corrosion resistance of this material (by itself)? > - Corrosion resistance in contact with galvanized iron? I avoid letting aluminum contact galvanized steel because it quickly plates the zinc off and allows the steel to corrode. But I'll defer to people with more experience. > Other comments? This doesn't make much sense to me. What are the "indications" that the roof isn't a good ground plane? What size is it, and at what frequencies are you attempting to use it? Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 227811 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44D9BD88.2010805@fairpoint.net> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 06:48:40 -0400 From: KC1DI Subject: Re: Galvanized iron - a poor ground plane? References: <1155077355.214250.181090@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> TF3KX wrote: > I have been considering a vertical setup on the top of my galvanized > sheet metal roof and using the roof as a ground plane. My brief tests > so far indicate that the performance of such a setup does not deliver > as strong signals to my RX as my simple inverted-V. Nevertheless, my > roof is only 2 years old, still in good condition and with well > overlapping sheets. > > There may be various reasons for this, but it has occurred to me that > the galvanized roof may not be such a good RF-conductor. Due to the > skin effect much of the current would run in the zinc coating, for > which I do not have much information on as far as RF-conductivity goes. > Does anyone have a comment or suggestions on this? > > By the way, I am going to try to lay additional wire radials (aluminum > welding wire) on this roof, which is the subject of a post I just sent > out before this one. > > 73 - Kristinn, TF3KX > Hi Kristinn, Effectively the radials will not even be seen by the Antenna because of the large metal surface area of the Roof. As Reg Suggests the only way you may improve the situation is to attach radials to the roof edge and have them extend the length of the ground plain system. A better method under the condition you have stated may be to be sure the bond between roof panels is RF/electrically good and add radials to by connecting them to the roof panels at the edge of the roof. You do not mention the Frequencies of Interest. Aluminum on Zinc is not a good Idea. There will be interaction and it will create noise on RX in short order. you would be better off raising the radials off the roof by some distance if you decide to go that root. hope this helps. 73 Dave, KC1DI Article: 227812 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "H. Adam Stevens, NQ5H" Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) - Photo 16a.jpg (0/1) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 07:37:11 -0500 Message-ID: <12djlnltlhda280@corp.supernews.com> References: "Dan Richardson" wrote in message news:fv0id214rtnclujr89d3cfuud8miodhcom@4ax.com... > >>> >>>Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >>>Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >>>prevent such postings. >>> >>>Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >>>of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >>>is completed I can try some high frequency models. >>> >>>Frank >>> >>> > > Walt was nice enough to send me the graphic and, so others can see it, > I've placed it on my web page for your viewing pleasure. > > http://k6mhe.com/sub/w2du_engineering.jpg > > Note: This will available for about 30 days. > > Danny, K6MHE > At first glance I thought of the multiplexed FM broadcast antennas on One Shell Plaza in Houston 33 years ago.. 73 H. NQ5H Article: 227813 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N3" Subject: 2 Mtr Beam Question Date: 9 Aug 2006 05:38:48 -0700 Message-ID: <1155127128.726612.236270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> I'm trying to tune a 2 mtr, 3 element beam that has a gamma match. After connecting the coax to the driven element & adjusting the matching unit, where should the coax exit in relation to the boom & the elements? Should it travel along the boom or drop straight down next to the driven element? Any assistance concerning the above would be most appreciated. Thank You. Article: 227814 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: 2 Mtr Beam Question Message-ID: References: <1155127128.726612.236270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:45:07 -0400 On 9 Aug 2006 05:38:48 -0700, "N3" wrote: >I'm trying to tune a 2 mtr, 3 element beam that has a gamma match. >After connecting the coax to the driven element & adjusting the >matching unit, where should the coax exit in relation to the boom & the >elements? Should it travel along the boom or drop straight down next to >the driven >element? Any assistance concerning the above would be most appreciated. >Thank You. I have always run mine below the boom to the mast and then down the mast, into a drip loop and below the rotor, making sure there is enough room to turn the rotor without stretching the coax out of the drip loop. Buck N4PGW -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 227815 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N3" Subject: Re: 2 Mtr Beam Question Date: 9 Aug 2006 06:05:44 -0700 Message-ID: <1155128744.908262.99910@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1155127128.726612.236270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Buck wrote: > On 9 Aug 2006 05:38:48 -0700, "N3" wrote: > > >I'm trying to tune a 2 mtr, 3 element beam that has a gamma match. > >After connecting the coax to the driven element & adjusting the > >matching unit, where should the coax exit in relation to the boom & the > >elements? Should it travel along the boom or drop straight down next to > >the driven > >element? Any assistance concerning the above would be most appreciated. > >Thank You. > > > I have always run mine below the boom to the mast and then down the > mast, into a drip loop and below the rotor, making sure there is > enough room to turn the rotor without stretching the coax out of the > drip loop. > > Buck > N4PGW > I forgot to mention that this antenna is being used for 2 mtr FM. If i drop the coax down vertically it will touch the driven element as well as the matching unit. > -- > 73 for now > Buck > N4PGW Article: 227816 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ricknj10@hotmail.com (Rick) Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: <44d9f53a.1277937@news.optonline.net> References: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 14:49:53 GMT >> I used the 'help' menu in Agent, but it doesn't seem to let me post an >> attachment. In order to post a jpg you would need to essentially convert it to text. I think a program called uuencode does it. Then it comes out looking like 15,000 lines of garbage to anyone reading the articles here. It would make you a lot of enemies faster than calling CQ on 14336. Put it another way - the rec.radio newsgroups are text only. Rick K2XT Article: 227817 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: notmeman Subject: FS: DX ENGINEERING BALUN Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 10:14:03 -0500 Message-ID: FS: DX ENGINEERING BALUN MODEL DXW-BAL600-H10-A 12:1 high power, rated for 5 kw continuous, 10 kw intermittent, easily handles full-limit AM or SSB. 1.8-30 Mhz, suitable for wide spaced 600 ohm open wire feeders. Like new, used approx. 6 months, installed indoors, has never been out in the elements. See http://www.dxengineering.com/Parts.asp?ID=97&PLID=50&SecID=10&DeptID=33&PartNo=DXE%2DBAL600%2DH10%2DA for detailed specs and photo. $125 includes shipping anywhere in continental USA. Contact me direct k0dan at arrl dot net Article: 227818 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) - Photo 16a.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: <1jnCg.1$667.0@clgrps13> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 15:37:33 GMT "Dan Richardson" wrote in message news:fv0id214rtnclujr89d3cfuud8miodhcom@4ax.com... > >>> >>>Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >>>Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >>>prevent such postings. >>> >>>Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >>>of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >>>is completed I can try some high frequency models. >>> >>>Frank >>> >>> > > Walt was nice enough to send me the graphic and, so others can see it, > I've placed it on my web page for your viewing pleasure. > > http://k6mhe.com/sub/w2du_engineering.jpg > > Note: This will available for about 30 days. > > Danny, K6MHE Thanks Danny, Frank Article: 227819 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 13:08:30 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Re: Engineers References: Message-ID: Scott wrote: > Ya, but...5 out of 4 engineers are dyslexic... > Eye dish garee wthi ttha marekr! /s/ DD, + froutie yeers na nerieng. Article: 227820 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Frank's" References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 17:27:44 GMT > Frank, don't forget to use a 1/4-wave vertical when calculating > efficiency. > > I assume you always include the power in the ground wave in the total > power radiated when calculating efficiency. > > I think radial length intervals of 0.5 metres will be OK for 100 or > more radials. Reg, I have always used the 1/4 wave vertical to calculate efficiency. Most of my calculations do not include the surface wave. The problem with including the surface wave is that it is computed over a cylindrical surface at x meters from the antenna. Technically not a surface, but rather a vertical line in cylindrical coordinates. The surface is implied due to the expected symmetry of radiation. In my calculations I have taken "x" as 200 m, so as to ensure the result is in the far-field at 8 MHz (nominal 5 wavelengths). I compute the field at 1 m intervals, in the "z" direction to 200 m. To include the total field I would have to allow z to approach infinity. Taking these data from the NEC output text file, I import it to Excel. In Excel I compute the radial distance and elevation angle to the source. Since my increments are in steps of one meter I can only approximate integral degree points; removing those points far from integral degrees. I could employ linear interpolation, but the field intensity variation is relatively smooth, and adds no discernable ripple to the radiation pattern. I then normalize these data to 1 m to match the spherical data for the sky wave pattern. At 45 degrees elevation there is very little ground wave effects, I can then combine the two normalized sets of data, and numerically integrate over a hemispherical surface. Sorry to bore you with these details, but just to give an idea of the tedious steps involved in including the surface wave. To compute the total radiated sky wave involves a simple command in NEC. Just the same I can compute the total radiated power at 0.5 m and 10 m radial lengths as a comparison. At every 0.5 m it would drive me nuts. Attempting to model a 100 radial system I continually run into road blocks. At one point I had a complex matrix with 3.6 million entries. Still I think I have a viable model that needs just a little refinement. Due to the rotational symmetry of the structure I can employ methods that greatly reduce run time. The model that should work will consist of thirty-three 10 cm radials. At the end of these short radials I connect three 9.9 m radials for a total of 99 radials. If I run into problems I may have to reduce the segmentation to 25 cm. What is interesting, in my preliminary results, is that there is only a 2% improvement in sky wave total radiated power with 120 radials over 36 radials. Frank Article: 227821 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "RST Engineering" References: <44d9f53a.1277937@news.optonline.net> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:04:19 -0700 The hell you say. Richard's jpg of VSWR came through quite nicely. Jim > > Put it another way - the rec.radio newsgroups are text only. > > Rick K2XT Article: 227822 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) References: <44d9f53a.1277937@news.optonline.net> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 19:42:33 GMT RST Engineering wrote: > The hell you say. Richard's jpg of VSWR came through quite nicely. Not on my news-server. It appears that some ISP's block binaries and some do not. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227823 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <9aspq3-7tr.ln1@mail.specsol.com> From: jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) References: <44d9f53a.1277937@news.optonline.net> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:15:03 GMT Cecil Moore wrote: > RST Engineering wrote: > > The hell you say. Richard's jpg of VSWR came through quite nicely. > Not on my news-server. It appears that some ISP's block > binaries and some do not. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Few news servers will handle binaries. Almost every news reader will automaticaly ASCII encode a binary on transmission and decode it upon receipt. That's a bit simplified, but basically how it works. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. Article: 227824 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: 2 Mtr Beam Question Message-ID: References: <1155127128.726612.236270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 23:17:10 GMT On 9 Aug 2006 05:38:48 -0700, "N3" wrote: >I'm trying to tune a 2 mtr, 3 element beam that has a gamma match. >After connecting the coax to the driven element & adjusting the >matching unit, where should the coax exit in relation to the boom & the >elements? Should it travel along the boom or drop straight down next to >the driven >element? Any assistance concerning the above would be most appreciated. >Thank You. Your description is not entirely clear, but I interpret it to mean you have a vertical beam. In that case you should not have any additional vertical conductor within about 0.2 wavelengths to the rear of the beam, or anywhere within, near, or in front of the beam. So... if that is the case, you could route the cable from the feedpoint, back along the boom, and continue in that direction for a further quarter wave or more before dropping the cable down. There are other ways to get the cable away without disturbing the pattern and feed point impedance. Owen -- Article: 227825 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: r2000swler@hotmail.com Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 9 Aug 2006 16:25:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1155165955.313726.65950@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Dale Parfitt wrote: > Give me the exact frequency Terry. > > Dale W4OP 13.560000MHz. Smack dab in the middle of the HiFer/ISM allocation. It is usually up on Saturday morning when I do some tests. Terry Article: 227826 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 9 Aug 2006 17:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: <1155170716.042146.232890@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > Dale Parfitt wrote: > > > Give me the exact frequency Terry. > > > > Dale W4OP > > > 13.560000MHz. > Smack dab in the middle of the HiFer/ISM allocation. > It is usually up on Saturday morning when I do some tests. > so? > Terry Article: 227827 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:23:50 -0500 From: Tom Ring Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) References: <44d9f53a.1277937@news.optonline.net> Message-ID: <44da8aa7$0$6154$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net> Rick wrote: > > > In order to post a jpg you would need to essentially convert it to > text. I think a program called uuencode does it. > Then it comes out looking like 15,000 lines of garbage to anyone > reading the articles here. It would make you a lot of enemies faster > than calling CQ on 14336. Problem with the 336 crowd is that they almost never check before _they_ transmit up or down the band. And if they do check, they wait about 500 milliseconds before they figure the freq is clear. They have lots of enemies themselves, myself being one. They have a very poor reputation on 20. tom K0TAR Article: 227828 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: 2 Mtr Beam Question Message-ID: References: <1155127128.726612.236270@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155128744.908262.99910@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 22:12:14 -0400 On 9 Aug 2006 06:05:44 -0700, "N3" wrote: > >Buck wrote: >> On 9 Aug 2006 05:38:48 -0700, "N3" wrote: >> >> >I'm trying to tune a 2 mtr, 3 element beam that has a gamma match. >> >After connecting the coax to the driven element & adjusting the >> >matching unit, where should the coax exit in relation to the boom & the >> >elements? Should it travel along the boom or drop straight down next to >> >the driven >> >element? Any assistance concerning the above would be most appreciated. >> >Thank You. >> >> >> I have always run mine below the boom to the mast and then down the >> mast, into a drip loop and below the rotor, making sure there is >> enough room to turn the rotor without stretching the coax out of the >> drip loop. >> >> Buck >> N4PGW >> > > >I forgot to mention that this antenna is being used for 2 mtr FM. If i >drop the coax down vertically it will touch the driven element as well >as the matching unit. >> -- >> 73 for now >> Buck >> N4PGW Drop it down the mast on the opposite side of the antenna element. I know some element(s) are probably near the pole, but to one side of it, but put the coax on the opposite side of the pole. There should be no further interference with the signal than the pole already offers. Buck -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 227829 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700 Message-ID: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Al Klein wrote: > On 2 Aug 2006 20:05:21 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > >> On 23 Jul 2006 07:26:05 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > >> >> >how balanced is to to place CW over all over ham knowledge? > > >> >> No one is, any more than by requiring people to know the law one is > >> >> putting the law "over all ham knowledge". > > >> >CW is pass/fail. To fail CW denies all HF privs (except for Alaska). > > >> Theory is also pass/fail. To fail to get the required number of > >> correct answers denies all privs - HF, VHF, UHF ... > > >There is no pass/fail practical for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY, FAX, > >Packet, PSK, etc, etc, etc. > > There's no test at all, so those claiming that the reason they want a > test for CW dropped because it's not "modern" have no argument - they > want no test for FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is also pretty old hat), > packet, PSK, etc. They want no test at all, unless they can memorize > a few answers to "pass" it. You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. > >> >> >How progressive is it? > > >> >> How progressive is it to not require people to know ... oh, yeah, > >> >> that's progressive, since the new thing is to hand out licenses > >> >> because people have some kind of "right" to get on the air. > > >> >Then why is it with the prospect of losing the CW Exam, that you'se > >> >guys want to "beef up" the written exams? > > >> We don't. > > >That is not true. > > Sure it is. "Beefing up" the written exam is a counter to "drop CW > because it's old fashioned". If you want modern you want the testing > to be turned from CW to modern modes. That is not true. You wish to change the written exams, not add practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > Those who want CW dropped just > want what they can't memorize dropped so they can get a ticket without > really being tested on anything. So all ham radio is is Morse Code on HF? Or is it more than that? > Actually knowing anything is so old > fashioned, isn't it? Not at all. > >> We want to get back the level it used to be before it was > >> dumbed down to the point that you could almost pass it if you never > >> heard of the FCC, ham radio or electronics. > > >You're referring to the Conditional license, right? > > No, I'm not addressing *where* the test is held at all - I'm > addressing *whether* there's any real test, which there isn't, except > for CW right now. Spitting out something you memorized is only a test > of memory. Sounds like the Conditional License to me. > >> Just by guessing at the > >> answers. It used to require that you draw (was it 3?) schematics. > > >You tell me? Was it 2 or was it 3? > > I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them > today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a > test of knowing what's in a radio. Then advocate passing the current exam at every license renewal. You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly. > >> From scratch. Let's see how many people could do that today. A > >> Colpitts oscillator, a Hartley oscillator and some other circuit that > >> I've forgotten at the moment. > > >You should self-modify your license and cease amateur operation until > >you remember. > > Why? Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. What if you forgot your band edges? > >The amateur is self-policing, and you no longer meet your own standard. > > Sure I do. The test wasn't to remember what circuits to draw, it was > to draw them. And I can draw them any time. Then do so. Quit complaining to me that you can't remember what it was that you were supposed to draw. > >> They're still as relevant today as they were 50 years ago. > > >Other things are relevant today that weren't even known 50 years ago. > > So let's have them on the test. But if a practical exam is necessary for Morse Code, why isn't it necessary for other modes? If all radio is merely plug and play, why do the services still have radio schools (that aren't teaching Morse Code)? > Oops, that's right - no more relevant testing, isn't that what people > are asking for? Just give me the answers so I can memorize them and > pick them out on the test. Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole argument! > >> >> >how loyal is it to denny the nation the benifits of allowing more > >> >> >operators > > >> >> What "benefits" does the country get from more people using radios who > >> >> don't know the first thing about them? (Whatever "denny" means.) > > >> >It's always been that way. You could even buy Heathkits already > >> >assembled. > > >> But you had to actually *know* a little theory to use one legally. > > >No you didn't. > > Yes, you did - you had to pass a test to show that you did. There has never been a practical test to show that you could operate a radio. Ever. > All you > have to do now is memorize a few answers. That's all you had to do then. > >I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military. > >I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce > >power once. > > But you had to learn how to use the radios. I did? > Hams today don't - they > memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no > understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn. Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed. > >> That's exactly what he's talking about. Give someone a radio and a > >> "license" to use it and he'll "acquire the skill to be ready for > >> service to country and community". That's what Mark said, right up > >> above. How does one acquire skill by playing radio? > > >We self-train. > > You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted > here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want > to get on the air. Period. W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted to get on the air. Period. > > It is a continuous process of improvements. You > >mistakenly believe that at the conclusion of The Exam, the "operator" > >is 100%. > > And you mistakenly believe that most hams today want to learn how to > operate properly. Listen to 75 some evenings. Lots of OFs on there who should know better. That's why I hold the opinions that I hold. Your generation doesn't have a lock on decency, respect, or apatite for knowledge. Far from it. > >> But that's what Mark and his ilk want - we'll have "skilled operators" > >> if we allow people to buy radios and put them on the air with no skill > >> or knowledge. By osmosis? Or by magic? > > >I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't > >use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they > >are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this > >be? > > They were trained. Not in Morse Code. If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > >> So you'd get a license not knowing CW, build a radio (you couldn't buy > >> one then) and ... what? Sit and look at it. Some things are just too > >> obvious to need mentioning. > > >Please diagram that radio from "Scratch." > > Any time. Filter or phasing? BFO receive or quadrature detection? > I've designed them, built them and used them, and still could. What is/was your profession? > >> Evidently not, or I'd be the only one in the world advocating that a > >> test should actually test for something. There are actually millions > >> of us who don't think lack of instant gratification is the worst thing > >> in the world. > > >Dial 911 and tell the operator that you don't need instant > >gratification, take your time. > > Very bad example of an attempt at sarcasm and a misunderstanding of > "gratification". > > >> What next? DXCC awards for those who *want* to work 100 countries? > > >You seem to be confused. DXCC is an award offered by the ARRL, not the > >FCC. It has nothing to do with licensing. > > But an award for wanting has to do with "I want it so it's my right to > have it", which is what I'm talking about. No one has any "right" to > get on the air. Correct. And no one has a right to force their favorite mode on everyone else. Your days of doing so are numbered. Article: 227830 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 9 Aug 2006 19:18:06 -0700 Message-ID: <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > Al Klein wrote: > > Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. > > Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode > sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize > the individual characters? > -- > 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp We aren't made to memorize every value of resistor and capacitor, or every offset for the six meter repeater subband. Article: 227831 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 9 Aug 2006 19:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> clfe wrote: > "clfe" wrote in message > news:44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net... > > > > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > > news:LInAg.689$%j7.344@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > >> K4YZ wrote: > >>> Cecil Moore wrote: > >>>> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode > >>>> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize > >>>> the individual characters? > >>> > >>> Probably, Cecil, since it would then make it difficult to pass the > >>> test. > >> > >> You missed the point. The Morse code skill exam requires > >> memorizing the characters. Memorizing is being condemned > >> as an evil act. Since memorizing is evil, the Morse code > >> skill exam should be the first thing to be eliminated. > >> -- > >> 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > > > In some cases, it "could" be said that hairs are being split. To have > > "knowledge" of the code - could mean basically - you know it exists and > > why it is used. To "know" the Morse Code, usually refers to KNOWING the > > characters sufficiently to use them at whatever speed it is you can. On > > the other hand, someone who isn't involved could say - that a Ham operator > > is "knowledgable" in the code. Heck, to someone not IN Ham radio - they > > could easily assume a NO CODE tech - KNOWS code. > > Just to clarify my point - many "assume" a Ham Operator - regardless the > license - KNOWS code. So, if a "No Code" tech simply says "I"M A HAM > OPERATOR" to someone not knowing the license class structure, the > "assumption is made. AND unless that NC tech clarifies it, the unsuspecting > person will go on in ignorance "assuming" ALL hams "know" code. Morse Code > (per my recollection) has always been and most likely - even if only in > history books - always will be known and associated with HAM RADIO. Heaven forbid that someone assumes that a lowly, unwashed Technician know the CODE. > lou Many "assume" that an Old Timer knows more than they actually know. Most Old Timers are guilty of this kind of thinking. Furthermore, many "assume" that newcomers to the hobby know little or nothing, and have no desire to learn. Most Old Timers are guilty of this klind of thinking. Article: 227832 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N9OGL" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 9 Aug 2006 20:41:06 -0700 Message-ID: <1155181266.190396.22320@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Roy Lewallen wrote: > John - KD5YI wrote: > > > > Hey, Roy - > > > > My 3 mW answer was for 30 meters. I think that ratios correctly to your > > 30 microwatts at 3 meters. Yes? > > Yep, that's right. And I finally got curious enough to look up the > actual regulation. According to section 15.225(a), intentional radiators > at 13.553-13.567 MHz are allowed 15,848 uV/m at 30 meters, which is > about 4.75 mW to an isotropic antenna in free space. There's also a > 0.01% frequency stability requirement which would imply crystal control. > And any emissions extending outside the band have to be about 54 dB > lower, 30 uV/m at 30 m. > > Roy Lewallen, W7EL Do what??? The power output can vary depending on a number of things including coax and antenna, you can run 1,000 watts and come up 10,000 uV/meter at a distance of 30 meters. As the FCC Office of Engineering and Technology has stated in their bulletin which deals with Part 15. "What is the relationship between "microvolts per meter" and Watts? Watts are the units used to describe the amount of power generated by a transmitter. Microvolts per meter (=B5V/m) are the units used to describe the strength of an electric field created by the operation of a transmitter. A particular transmitter that generates a constant level of power (Watts) can produce electric fields of different strengths (=B5V/m) depending on, among other things, the type of transmission line and antenna connected to it. Because it is the electric field that causes interference to authorized radio communications, and since a particular electric field strength does not directly correspond to a particular level of transmitter power, most of the Part 15 emission limits are specified in field strength." =20 Todd N9OGL OMEGA ONE BROADCASTING Article: 227833 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N9OGL" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 9 Aug 2006 20:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: <1155181568.757193.128490@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Brenda Ann wrote: > "John - KD5YI" wrote in message > news:AqTBg.55239$Lh4.46900@trnddc02... > > Slow Code wrote: > >> dxAce wrote in > >> news:44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com: > >>> > >>>N9OGL wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>Not Lloyd wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> wrote in message > >>>>>news:LLXAg.308$f31.98@newsfe7-win.ntli.net... > >>>>>are you using an ex Ham transmitter? > >>>>>I hear with LSB/USB get further than AM but is the LSB really wide > >>>>>enough for quality audio? Got a grandpappys MP1000 here that will rag > >>>>>50 watts AM all day long, but the band width is to narrow for > >>>>>anything like nice music audio... Speech is nice though. Maybe there > >>>>>is a wider AM filter than stock, some Ham wizardry to make it fit a > >>>>>decent audio element on to the carrier, > >>>>>...................................................................... > >>>>> > >>>>>Transmitting on illegal frequencies with an illegal transceiver? > >>>>>Only stupid Toad would do that. > >>>>> > >>>>>Gather around the legal frequencies this evening at 14.331 as we get > >>>>>a forum of LEGAL Hams together to discuss the nefarious activities of > >>>>>Toad and Roger. Look for this forum to begin on or about nine p.m. > >>>>>eastern time. Toad cannot join in, nor can KB9RQZ, since they are not > >>>>>licensed for this freq. Roger needs no invitation...he will lurk and > >>>>>jam as he sees fit. > >>>> > >>>>Before you go around spouting that I'm running illegal, I would > >>>>suggestion that you read Part 15 (47 CFR 15) but more to the point 47 > >>>>CFR 15.225 > >>> > >>>How much power you running? Unable to hear you here, but I'll give a > >>>listen again tomorrow if you're still up and running. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> 10000uV/m at 30m is the maximum. How much power into an isotropic > >> radiator give 10000uV/m at 30m. Of course, when the antenna has gain, > >> power has to be reduced to avoid illegal operation. > > > > > > My guess is 3 mW. > > > > John > > The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: > > > Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. > > (a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not exceed > 10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this paragraph is > based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The > provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. > > (b) The field strength of any emissions which appear outside of this band > shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in Sec. 15.209. > > I don't know that there is a difference anymore between Part 95 and Part 15 > emissions in the CB band... the old Part 15, back when a license was > required, used to be 100mW. PART 15 in the CB band is 10,000 uV/meter @ 3 meter (100 mw).(Walkie talkies and cordless phones are also 10,000 uV/meter @3 meters) While on 13 MHz it's 10,000 uV/meter @ 30 meters or about 1.8 watts at 100 feet. Todd N9OGL OMEGA ONE RADIO Article: 227834 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:24:05 -0400 On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, >AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, >then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. >However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So >there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than the ability to memorize answers. >That is not true. You wish to change the written exams, not add >practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty >darned old), packet, PSK, etc. Add SSB, FM, etc., to the nothing there is today. >So all ham radio is is Morse Code on HF? Or is it more than that? It's a lot more. The question isn't what ham radio is, it's whether one should be required to pass a realistic test to get a license. >> No, I'm not addressing *where* the test is held at all - I'm >> addressing *whether* there's any real test, which there isn't, except >> for CW right now. Spitting out something you memorized is only a test >> of memory. >Sounds like the Conditional License to me. The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the location. >> I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them >> today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a >> test of knowing what's in a radio. >Then advocate passing the current exam at every license renewal. What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a test. > You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly. I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a second. >> >> From scratch. Let's see how many people could do that today. A >> >> Colpitts oscillator, a Hartley oscillator and some other circuit that >> >> I've forgotten at the moment. >> >You should self-modify your license and cease amateur operation until >> >you remember. >> Why? Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. >What if you forgot your band edges? What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest tactics are transparent. >> >The amateur is self-policing, and you no longer meet your own standard. >> Sure I do. The test wasn't to remember what circuits to draw, it was >> to draw them. And I can draw them any time. >Then do so. Quit complaining to me that you can't remember what it was >that you were supposed to draw. Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests. >> >> They're still as relevant today as they were 50 years ago. >> >Other things are relevant today that weren't even known 50 years ago. >> So let's have them on the test. >But if a practical exam is necessary for Morse Code, why isn't it >necessary for other modes? Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The bands would be pretty QRM-free. > If all radio is merely plug and play, why do the services still have radio schools That's my point, not yours. Or don't you understand what you just said? >> Oops, that's right - no more relevant testing, isn't that what people >> are asking for? Just give me the answers so I can memorize them and >> pick them out on the test. >Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole >argument! So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on 14 MHz"? That kind of relevance? Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the example" kind of relevance? >> >> But you had to actually *know* a little theory to use one legally. >> >No you didn't. >> Yes, you did - you had to pass a test to show that you did. >There has never been a practical test to show that you could operate a >radio. Ever. Do you understand what the word "theory" means? >> All you >> have to do now is memorize a few answers. >That's all you had to do then. How do you draw a schematic and explain the functions of parts by memorizing answers? You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k" or "coil". >> >I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military. >> >I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce >> >power once. >> But you had to learn how to use the radios. >I did? They just gave you a radio and said "use it"? >> Hams today don't - they >> memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no >> understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn. >Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed. When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a published answer pool. >> You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted >> here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want >> to get on the air. Period. >W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted >to get on the air. Period. Point? >> And you mistakenly believe that most hams today want to learn how to >> operate properly. Listen to 75 some evenings. >Lots of OFs on there who should know better. That's why I hold the >opinions that I hold. Your generation doesn't have a lock on decency, >respect, or apatite for knowledge. Far from it. Very few of "my" generation there. >> >I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't >> >use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they >> >are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this >> >be? >> They were trained. >Not in Morse Code. You must be sitting on oil. Can't you stick to a topic long enough to be coherent? You were discussing how someone can be efficient at voice commo, not in Morse. > If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must >also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY >(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. I have no problem with that. >> >> So you'd get a license not knowing CW, build a radio (you couldn't buy >> >> one then) and ... what? Sit and look at it. Some things are just too >> >> obvious to need mentioning. >> >Please diagram that radio from "Scratch." >> Any time. Filter or phasing? BFO receive or quadrature detection? >> I've designed them, built them and used them, and still could. >What is/was your profession? Trained as an EE. Spent years designing RF circuitry, then went into digital design. "Is", not yet "was" - I'm still alive. >> >> What next? DXCC awards for those who *want* to work 100 countries? >> >You seem to be confused. DXCC is an award offered by the ARRL, not the >> >FCC. It has nothing to do with licensing. >> But an award for wanting has to do with "I want it so it's my right to >> have it", which is what I'm talking about. No one has any "right" to >> get on the air. >Correct. And no one has a right to force their favorite mode on >everyone else. I'm advocating real testing for whatever mode. Right now the only test is "do you have the fee, can you get to the testing place, and have you memorized enough answers to pass". Let's have a test that shows whether the testee knows anything. CW, APRS, AX25, PSK - all of it. Or separate the licenses. You want to operate FM, you take a test on FM and, if you pass, you get an FM license. Want to operate SSB, you take a different test. Not "want to get on the air? memorize some answers and pay your fee". Article: 227835 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:25:30 -0400 On 9 Aug 2006 19:18:06 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >Cecil Moore wrote: >> Al Klein wrote: >> > Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. >> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode >> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize >> the individual characters? >We aren't made to memorize every value of resistor and capacitor, or >every offset for the six meter repeater subband. And anyone copying CW character by character is never going to get any further than someone talking letter by letter. Those who don't understand it denigrate it. Article: 227836 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1154614371.351691.272240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:28:22 -0400 On 9 Aug 2006 19:27:57 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >clfe wrote: >> Just to clarify my point - many "assume" a Ham Operator - regardless the >> license - KNOWS code. So, if a "No Code" tech simply says "I"M A HAM >> OPERATOR" to someone not knowing the license class structure, the >> "assumption is made. AND unless that NC tech clarifies it, the unsuspecting >> person will go on in ignorance "assuming" ALL hams "know" code. Morse Code >> (per my recollection) has always been and most likely - even if only in >> history books - always will be known and associated with HAM RADIO. >Heaven forbid that someone assumes that a lowly, unwashed Technician >know the CODE. Why would you assume that a NO CODE tech knows code? >Many "assume" that an Old Timer knows more than they actually know. There's a difference between "know" and "proved". >Furthermore, many >"assume" that newcomers to the hobby know little or nothing, and have >no desire to learn. Most of those are the assumptions of newcomers about the assumptions of old timers. Most old timers don't make that assumption. We've been around long enough to have seen different. Article: 227837 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "LenAnderson@ieee.org" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 9 Aug 2006 22:05:39 -0700 Message-ID: <1155186339.805761.31210@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> From: hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com on Wed, Aug 9 2006 7:14 pm Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy, rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap >Al Klein wrote: >> On 2 Aug 2006 20:05:21 -0700, hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> >Al Klein wrote: >> >> On 23 Jul 2006 07:26:05 -0700, hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> >> >> >how balanced is to to place CW over all over ham knowledge? > >> >> >> No one is, any more than by requiring people to know the law one is >> >> >> putting the law "over all ham knowledge". > >> >> >CW is pass/fail. To fail CW denies all HF privs (except for Alaska). > >> >> Theory is also pass/fail. To fail to get the required number of >> >> correct answers denies all privs - HF, VHF, UHF ... > >> >There is no pass/fail practical for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY, FAX, >> >Packet, PSK, etc, etc, etc. > >> There's no test at all, so those claiming that the reason they want a >> test for CW dropped because it's not "modern" have no argument - they >> want no test for FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is also pretty old hat), >> packet, PSK, etc. They want no test at all, unless they can memorize >> a few answers to "pass" it. > >You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, >AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, >then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. > >However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So >there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. Hello Brian, You are engaging in old-time necro-equine flagellation here with this "Al Klein." I suspect he will not buy rationality and come back with more of the ARRL-taught-and-sponsored emotionalism about radiotelegraphy. The fact that the World Radio Conference of 2003 amened the amateur Radio Regulations seems to be lost to the brainwashed. Prior to July 2003 *all* nations *were*required* to administer International Morse Code proficiency tests to amateur radio license applicants. *All* No exceptions. After July 2003 *all*administrations* were free to test for morse or junk the test. In mid-2003 the ONLY non-amateur radio service in the world that even bothered with manual radiotelegraphy were some ocean-going vessels who had not bothered to update to Data and SSB like the bigger ocean shipping concerns had already done for years. >> Sure it is. "Beefing up" the written exam is a counter to "drop CW >> because it's old fashioned". If you want modern you want the testing >> to be turned from CW to modern modes. > >That is not true. You wish to change the written exams, not add >practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty >darned old), packet, PSK, etc. Klein seems to be thinking the AMATEUR radio test "has" to be as "tough" as the commercial licenses. AMATEUR radio is about hobby pursuits, a pastime done for personal pleasure. It is NOT some professional activity (except in the minds of a few dwelling in fantasyland). I've had a Commercial ticket since March, 1956, passing it at an FCC Field Office on first go. It didn't hurt that I'd already had three full years of big-station Army communications for prior experience. The United States Army did NOT require me to "know CW" in order to keep 30 to 40 HF transmitters on the air or keep 9 24-channel microwave radio relay terminals operation 24/7. At the same time I had to be proficient in "destroying the enemy." That was in 1953 to 1956. >> Those who want CW dropped just >> want what they can't memorize dropped so they can get a ticket without >> really being tested on anything. > >So all ham radio is is Morse Code on HF? Or is it more than that? It's "Working DX on HF with CW." :-) ARRL has worked the CW thing to death ever since Hiram Percy went beyond the ionosphere over 70 years ago. Newington got brainwashed by "T. O. M." long ago and never went into detox. >> No, I'm not addressing *where* the test is held at all - I'm >> addressing *whether* there's any real test, which there isn't, except >> for CW right now. Spitting out something you memorized is only a test >> of memory. > >Sounds like the Conditional License to me. Klein really seems to want a Professional license exam for AMATEUR activities! Unless there's been a change in the Communications Act of 1934 and the Telecommunications Act of 1996 as of this Wednesday morning, the FCC was NEVER EVER chartered to be an academic institution. Radio amateurs are AMATEURS by definition. >> >> Just by guessing at the >> >> answers. It used to require that you draw (was it 3?) schematics. > >> >You tell me? Was it 2 or was it 3? > >> I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them >> today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a >> test of knowing what's in a radio. > >Then advocate passing the current exam at every license renewal. You'd >probably be weeded out pretty quickly. I can still remember my First 'Phone test. Took two hours. Four parts to get a First. I recall four schematics...ALL on vacuum tube circuitry. [this was in 1956 and there were NO RF power transistors available anywhere] Anyone who hasn't kept up with the state of electronics would be totally LOST inside a modern HF transceiver...probably dumbfounded by any HT using SMDs. :-) >> >> From scratch. Let's see how many people could do that today. A >> >> Colpitts oscillator, a Hartley oscillator and some other circuit that >> >> I've forgotten at the moment. > >> >You should self-modify your license and cease amateur operation until >> >you remember. > >> Why? Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. > >What if you forgot your band edges? [change band surgeons? :-) ] No problem for me on Klein's "challenge." I can name four more basic oscillator circuits, draw them out, simulate their operation in SPICE after calculating the values with a pocket calculator, build the little suckers, adjust them, measure their characteristics and even design-build impedance-interface networks for outputs. Of course, the challenger has to PAY me for that...I AM a pro and other folks have paid me for such services for a half century. Ackshully, about half the commercial ticket questions were on Rules and Regulations. The theory part was cursory to the subject and not near enough complete to "qualify" for expertness in radio or associated electronics. As I've seen since, they still ran heavy for Rules and Regs for the next four decades. It should. Not even the commercial ticket is any kind of "diploma" of knowledge. >> >The amateur is self-policing, and you no longer meet your own standard. > >> Sure I do. The test wasn't to remember what circuits to draw, it was >> to draw them. And I can draw them any time. > >Then do so. Quit complaining to me that you can't remember what it was >that you were supposed to draw. Not many tube Hartley oscillators used nowadays. :-) I see more Yamahas than Hartleys... :-) >But if a practical exam is necessary for Morse Code, why isn't it >necessary for other modes? If all radio is merely plug and play, why >do the services still have radio schools (that aren't teaching Morse >Code)? There is NO practical reason for a manual radiotelegraphy test today. There is only the EMOTIONAL demand of some old-timers for all to do as they had to do. >There has never been a practical test to show that you could operate a >radio. Ever. Correct for the United States of America. [waiting for someone to trot out the Russian amateur test...I'll give them a year's subscription to The Daily Worker...:-) ] >> Hams today don't - they >> memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no >> understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn. > >Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed. Absolutely correct! :-) >> >> That's exactly what he's talking about. Give someone a radio and a >> >> "license" to use it and he'll "acquire the skill to be ready for >> >> service to country and community". That's what Mark said, right up >> >> above. How does one acquire skill by playing radio? > >> >We self-train. > >> You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted >> here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want >> to get on the air. Period. > >W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted >to get on the air. Period. Not only that, he told us he left his "hormonal" girlfriend on the porch the night of the prom so he could rush home and get on the air with his newly-arrived license! :-) >> > It is a continuous process of improvements. You >> >mistakenly believe that at the conclusion of The Exam, the "operator" >> >is 100%. > >> And you mistakenly believe that most hams today want to learn how to >> operate properly. Listen to 75 some evenings. > >Lots of OFs on there who should know better. That's why I hold the >opinions that I hold. Your generation doesn't have a lock on decency, >respect, or apatite for knowledge. Far from it. ABSOLUTELY TRUE, Brian! :-) Heh heh, I'm one of the (chronological) Olde Fahrts and KNOW what his generation's opinions ARE. God help me if I ever get as stodgily self-righteous as some of them! :-( >> >I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't >> >use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they >> >are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this >> >be? > >> They were trained. > >Not in Morse Code. If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must >also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY >(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. Having once had a scanner to listen to (idly), civil aircraft pilots and tower controllers get right up there on voice speech rates, faster than most PLMRS Safety radio services (even police). Then there are the UNtrained radio users such as harbor and inland waterways communicators, the vast majority being untrained (horrors!) civilians (more horror!) communicating just fine on their store- bought, usually-installed-by-others VHF voice radios. The difference between them and amateurs is that the above are MORE concerned about INFORMATION; amateur morsemen are much more concerned about the MEDIUM, of USING Morse. To paraphrase McLuhan a bit, "Their medium is their ego massage." >> But an award for wanting has to do with "I want it so it's my right to >> have it", which is what I'm talking about. No one has any "right" to >> get on the air. > >Correct. And no one has a right to force their favorite mode on >everyone else. Your days of doing so are numbered. I think they expired long before WRC-03 was finished. It seems that Klein and other Olde Fahrts are mostly looking for adulation by others for being so old in amateur radio. Their self-righteous attitudes stick out all over, demanding that "young folk" do what They had to do...or else. :-( I could care less what was "expert" in radio in 1932. Two decades plus one after I was born I began using Big-Time HF radio communications and KNOW what was "expertise" from seeing (and emulating) the REAL experts of then. It was NOT morse code or manual radiotelegraphy as "best" a half century ago. Manual radiotelegraphy has been slowly dying towards obscurity ever since...but the chief media agency for ham radio in Newington still believes in it and promotes it constantly as "the best skill" in amateur radio to this day. A rather disgusting RETRO attitude of theirs in my opinion. Klein really doesn't understand human history or humans, for that matter. EVERYONE has wanted "instant gratification" for something or other for all of recorded history. Even in amateur radio. Some companies in the 1920s were selling ready-built amateur radios, back when manual radiotelegraphy was about the ONLY mode available to the ham community. [that's 80 years ago, four generations, in case some of his contemporaries are afflicted with Alzheimers] But, if Newington wants the test, then the test will remain. ARRL "represents 'all' amateurs," donut? :-) ARRL is Big Business (to the tune of a reported $15 million profit now) and Big Business SPEAKS. :-( LenAnderson@ieee.org Article: 227838 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "LenAnderson@ieee.org" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 9 Aug 2006 23:12:15 -0700 Message-ID: <1155190335.344076.131790@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> From: Al Klein on Wed, Aug 9 2006 9:24 pm Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy, rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap >On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com wrote: > >>You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, >>AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, >>then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. >>However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So >>there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. > >That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than >the ability to memorize answers. 1. The FCC does NOT generate the questions on any amateur radio license test. The VEC Question Pool Committee does. By LAW the VEC QPC is composed of radio amateurs. 2. The FCC does NOT mandate the maximum number of questions on any amateur radio license exam written test. The FCC specifies only the MINIMUM number of questions. The VEC QPC can generate as many questions as it cares to. 3. At some point a LARGE number of questions could defeat even the most eidetic of humans, thereby destroying your rant of "it isn't a real test because all can memorize the questions-answers." >>So all ham radio is is Morse Code on HF? Or is it more than that? > >It's a lot more. The question isn't what ham radio is, it's whether >one should be required to pass a realistic test to get a license. "Realistic test" = Collitch-level BS to make one a 1930's radio expert? :-) Define "realistic test" remembering that ALL the VEs are also VOLUNTEER radio amateurs. >>> I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them >>> today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a >>> test of knowing what's in a radio. > >>Then advocate passing the current exam at every license renewal. > >What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a >test. Oh, my, are you taking on the ENTIRE Academic Community now? Last college-level course test I had required MEMORIZING and WRITING THEM DOWN! Damn, all that work leading up to it and it wasn't a "real" test! >> You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly. > >I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not >the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a >second. [getting Donald Trump wig] "You're fired!" :-) So, Al, what did you get for a license? A BS-HAM? Define "real test," show your work. >What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest >tactics are transparent. WHAT "dishonest tactics," olde-tymer? You've gotten rather self-righteous about "real" without giving any real answers as to what defines "real." You got stomped on, par for the newsgroup course. If you don't like disagreements over your disagreeability, try another venue. >Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and >we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests. You WERE COMPLAINING...all about "today's tests are not 'real'". Self-righteousness is readily transparent... >>But if a practical exam is necessary for Morse Code, why isn't it >>necessary for other modes? > >Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal >on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show >the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The >bands would be pretty QRM-free. You did NOT answer Brian's question. Does self-righteousness negate having to answer questions? >So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the >schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on >14 MHz"? That kind of relevance? > >Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the >example" kind of relevance? Now you are putting words in Brian's mouth. Tsk, tsk. Explain how the VEs will love and embrace your collitch-level AMATEUR radio license exam, needing hours per test applicant. In case you hadn't been up to speed, the FCC does NOT normally do any testing of either Commercial or amateur radio licenses. That's been privatized. If you wish to change AWAY from privatized testing, you have ready access to the Proposal method with the FCC. They explain the whole process. >>> All you >>> have to do now is memorize a few answers. > >>That's all you had to do then. > >How do you draw a schematic and explain the functions of parts by >memorizing answers? You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k" >or "coil". Gosh, olde-tymer, did the ham exams of a half century ago get into vectors and phases? I had none of that in my First 'Phone exam. I missed a collitch-final kind of exam? :-) >>> >I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military. >>> >I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce >>> >power once. > >>> But you had to learn how to use the radios. > >I did? > >They just gave you a radio and said "use it"? Soldiers and Airmen weren't "given" radios. They were ISSUED them. A half century ago you had damn well take CARE of them or you HAD to pay for them! By the way, the FCC does NOT regulate federal government radio use...the NTIA does that, for both federal folks and military personnel use. I can give you a brief summation of the "instruction" in using an AN/PRC-6 HT: About 10 minutes, word of mouth and hands-on "training." A VHF radio transceiver, it wasn't designed for AMATEUR radio activities. It couldn't be...didn't have any place to plug in a code key. :-) I can easily remember the "training" on lots of other real radios in the military plus a few more as a civilian working on DoD contract projects. The AN/PRC-119 took a lot longer, especially for the Hopset entry. [I had to learn it from its big TM] You familiar with the PRC-119? A quarter-million of them have been built. All the military branches have them. >When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by >answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a >published answer pool. Sunnuvagun! In 1956 one of the four parts I successfully completed was MULTIPLE-CHOICE! How about that? :-) But that was at an FCC Field Office. 80 miles away in Chicago. No "conditionals" for Commercials then, senior. "Privatized testing" would be a laughable subject in '56. :-) >>> >I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't >>> >use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they >>> >are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this >>> >be? > >>> They were trained. > >>Not in Morse Code. > >You must be sitting on oil. Can't you stick to a topic long enough to >be coherent? You were discussing how someone can be efficient at >voice commo, not in Morse. I have no problem with understanding Brian...and I HAVE been around radio communication for a rather long time. Try asking me about "efficiency" or "throughput" on any mode, any radio service. Can you explain where all the other radio services got their "training" in radio use? If any at all, that is. You can't find any other radio service users who get NO "training" whatsoever nor need anything but an equipment license to use it? [I'm not talking about CB] >> If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must >>also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY >>(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > >I have no problem with that. I daresay a whole bunch of VEs would argue with you after spending HOURS separately with each test applicant for one of those "realistic test" ideas of yours. >I'm advocating real testing for whatever mode. Right now the only >test is "do you have the fee, can you get to the testing place, and >have you memorized enough answers to pass". Let's have a test that >shows whether the testee knows anything. CW, APRS, AX25, PSK - all of >it. Or separate the licenses. You want to operate FM, you take a >test on FM and, if you pass, you get an FM license. Want to operate >SSB, you take a different test. > >Not "want to get on the air? memorize some answers and pay your fee". Tsk, tsk. Plan out a "real test" and then get an estimation of the TIME it would take for each VE and each license applicant. Remember that US amateur radio licensing is now an ALL-VOLUNTEER process. Just WHO are you expecting to PAY for all the equipment necessary to do your "real testing" on ALL modes now allocated to US radio amateurs? Government? VEs? Who will be responsible for their maintenance? [this group has ALREADY beaten that subject to death in here] You will have to Petition the FCC for a drastic change in the number of "endorsements" to the various parts and classes. You will have to get in touch with the VEC QPC to change the number of written test questions. I don't think you will do anything, just sit in here and blow off steam like the usual self-righteous Olde-Tymer. Geez. US amateur radio is "working DX on HF with CW." Know CW and you don't need any theory or other BS. Ipso facto. [or something fancy in Latin to show 'book-larnen'...:-) ] LenAnderson@ieee.org Article: 227839 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:19:22 GMT Al Klein wrote: > The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an > FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the > location. On the contrary, the Conditional was the General Class license given away from an FCC office. At the time I got mine, the distance from an FCC office was set at 75 miles. Quoting the 1957 ARRL License Manual: "The Conditional Class license conveys privileges identical to those of the General Class ..." which incidentally at the time, was all amateur frequency operating privileges. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227840 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1154614371.351691.272240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:20:56 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Most of those are the assumptions of newcomers about the assumptions > of old timers. Most old timers don't make that assumption. We've > been around long enough to have seen different. But apparently not long enough to know what the Conditional Class license was all about. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227841 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1154614371.351691.272240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:26:19 -0400 On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:20:56 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> Most of those are the assumptions of newcomers about the assumptions >> of old timers. Most old timers don't make that assumption. We've >> been around long enough to have seen different. >But apparently not long enough to know what the Conditional >Class license was all about. So enlighten me. Article: 227842 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: r2000swler@hotmail.com Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 10 Aug 2006 05:57:07 -0700 Message-ID: <1155214627.678766.51160@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> > r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > > Dale Parfitt wrote: > > > > > Give me the exact frequency Terry. > > > > > > Dale W4OP > > > > > > 13.560000MHz. > > Smack dab in the middle of the HiFer/ISM allocation. > > It is usually up on Saturday morning when I do some tests. > > > so? > > Terry Dale wanted to know what frequency my "beacon" operates upon. I was only responding. CW is best for weak signal ops, but I wanted an AM test source for ongoing receiver experiments. Sorry if the AM causes you any distress, but such is life. Terry Article: 227843 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1154614371.351691.272240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:56:39 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> Al Klein wrote: >>> Most of those are the assumptions of newcomers about the assumptions >>> of old timers. Most old timers don't make that assumption. We've >>> been around long enough to have seen different. > >> But apparently not long enough to know what the Conditional >> Class license was all about. > > So enlighten me. Isn't the quote from the 1957 ARRL License Manual sufficient? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227844 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:43:13 +0100 Message-ID: "Frank's" wrote > Reg, > > I have always used the 1/4 wave vertical to calculate efficiency. > Most of my calculations do not include the surface wave. The problem > with including the surface wave is that it is computed over a cylindrical > surface at x meters from the antenna. Technically not a surface, but > rather a vertical line in cylindrical coordinates. The surface is implied > due to the expected symmetry of radiation. In my calculations I have > taken "x" as 200 m, so as to ensure the result is in the far-field at 8 MHz > (nominal 5 wavelengths). I compute the field at 1 m intervals, in the "z" > direction to 200 m. To include the total field I would have to allow z > to approach infinity. Taking these data from the NEC output text file, I > import it to Excel. In Excel I compute the radial distance and elevation > angle to the source. Since my increments are in steps of one meter > I can only approximate integral degree points; removing those points > far from integral degrees. I could employ > linear interpolation, but the field intensity variation is relatively > smooth, > and adds no discernable ripple to the radiation pattern. I then > normalize these data to 1 m to match the spherical data for the > sky wave pattern. At 45 degrees elevation there is very little > ground wave effects, I can then combine the two normalized > sets of data, and numerically integrate over a hemispherical surface. > > Sorry to bore you with these details, but just to give an idea of > the tedious steps involved in including the surface wave. To compute > the total radiated sky wave involves a simple command in NEC. > Just the same I can compute the total radiated power at 0.5 m > and 10 m radial lengths as a comparison. At every 0.5 m it would > drive me nuts. > > Attempting to model a 100 radial system I continually run into > road blocks. At one point I had a complex matrix with 3.6 > million entries. Still I think I have a viable model that needs > just a little refinement. Due to the rotational symmetry of the > structure I can employ methods that greatly reduce run time. The > model that should work will consist of thirty-three 10 cm > radials. At the end of these short radials I connect three 9.9 m > radials for a total of 99 radials. If I run into problems I may > have to reduce the segmentation to 25 cm. What is interesting, > in my preliminary results, is that there is only a 2% improvement > in sky wave total radiated power with 120 radials over 36 radials. > > Frank ====================================== Frank, Radiating efficiency is of secondary importance. It does not change very much with length of radials except at very short lengths. If computing efficiency involves great labour then do it at infrequent intervals. What IS important is the input impedance of a collection of N radials versus length, frequency and ground characteristics. From which efficiency can be calculated if required. I know not, and do not need to know, the details of how you use NEC4. I think it is safe to assume NEC4 provides reasonably correct answers. After all, the primary purpose of NEC4 is to generate radiation patterns from highly suspect input data. And I'm sure approximations are involved somewhere. When a camel is designed by several committees in succession, who knows how many humps can appear? I am about to delete all contents of these threads. I look forward to seeing a message from "Frank's". ---- Reg, G4FGQ. Article: 227845 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DB4555.8020702@fuse.net> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:40:21 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1153564701.965658.219410@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> not THIS again Article: 227846 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <12dg79hib3k0qdc@corp.supernews.com> <12dhv293ld0687a@corp.supernews.com> <1155181266.190396.22320@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <_CHCg.14568$rd1.2383@trnddc01> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:44:10 GMT N9OGL wrote: > Roy Lewallen wrote: > >>John - KD5YI wrote: >> >>>Hey, Roy - >>> >>>My 3 mW answer was for 30 meters. I think that ratios correctly to your >>>30 microwatts at 3 meters. Yes? >> >>Yep, that's right. And I finally got curious enough to look up the >>actual regulation. According to section 15.225(a), intentional radiators >>at 13.553-13.567 MHz are allowed 15,848 uV/m at 30 meters, which is >>about 4.75 mW to an isotropic antenna in free space. There's also a >>0.01% frequency stability requirement which would imply crystal control. >>And any emissions extending outside the band have to be about 54 dB >>lower, 30 uV/m at 30 m. >> >>Roy Lewallen, W7EL > > > Do what??? The power output can vary depending on a number of things > including coax and antenna, you can run 1,000 watts and come up 10,000 > uV/meter at a distance of 30 meters. As the FCC Office of Engineering > and Technology has stated in their bulletin which deals with Part 15. > > "What is the relationship between "microvolts per meter" and Watts? > Watts are the units used to describe the amount of power generated > by a transmitter. Microvolts per meter (µV/m) are the units used to > describe the strength of an electric field created by the operation of > a transmitter. A particular transmitter that generates a constant level > of power (Watts) can produce electric fields of different strengths > (µV/m) depending on, among other things, the type of transmission line > and antenna connected to it. Because it is the electric field that > causes interference to authorized radio communications, and since a > particular electric field strength does not directly correspond to a > particular level of transmitter power, most of the Part 15 emission > limits are specified in field strength." > > Todd N9OGL > OMEGA ONE BROADCASTING > C'mon, Todd. He qualified it by saying "4.75 mW to an isotropic antenna in free space." It is just a way to get a "feel" for how much power might be required based on the FCC uV/m limit under certain theoretical conditions. I would start with a calculation like this if I were designing a transmitter whose signal has to meet those limits. I think that would be better than starting with a 1000W transmitter when only a few milliwatts is required. When was the last time you used an isotropic antenna? How was your trip to free space? John Article: 227847 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <1155181568.757193.128490@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <4XHCg.14569$rd1.12230@trnddc01> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:05:36 GMT N9OGL wrote: > Brenda Ann wrote: > >>"John - KD5YI" wrote in message >>news:AqTBg.55239$Lh4.46900@trnddc02... >> >>>Slow Code wrote: >>> >>>>dxAce wrote in >>>>news:44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com: >>>> >>>>>N9OGL wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Not Lloyd wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote in message >>>>>>>news:LLXAg.308$f31.98@newsfe7-win.ntli.net... >>>>>>>are you using an ex Ham transmitter? >>>>>>>I hear with LSB/USB get further than AM but is the LSB really wide >>>>>>>enough for quality audio? Got a grandpappys MP1000 here that will rag >>>>>>>50 watts AM all day long, but the band width is to narrow for >>>>>>>anything like nice music audio... Speech is nice though. Maybe there >>>>>>>is a wider AM filter than stock, some Ham wizardry to make it fit a >>>>>>>decent audio element on to the carrier, >>>>>>>...................................................................... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Transmitting on illegal frequencies with an illegal transceiver? >>>>>>>Only stupid Toad would do that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Gather around the legal frequencies this evening at 14.331 as we get >>>>>>>a forum of LEGAL Hams together to discuss the nefarious activities of >>>>>>>Toad and Roger. Look for this forum to begin on or about nine p.m. >>>>>>>eastern time. Toad cannot join in, nor can KB9RQZ, since they are not >>>>>>>licensed for this freq. Roger needs no invitation...he will lurk and >>>>>>>jam as he sees fit. >>>>>> >>>>>>Before you go around spouting that I'm running illegal, I would >>>>>>suggestion that you read Part 15 (47 CFR 15) but more to the point 47 >>>>>>CFR 15.225 >>>>> >>>>>How much power you running? Unable to hear you here, but I'll give a >>>>>listen again tomorrow if you're still up and running. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>10000uV/m at 30m is the maximum. How much power into an isotropic >>>>radiator give 10000uV/m at 30m. Of course, when the antenna has gain, >>>>power has to be reduced to avoid illegal operation. >>> >>> >>>My guess is 3 mW. >>> >>>John >> >>The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: >> >> >>Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. >> >>(a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not exceed >>10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this paragraph is >>based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The >>provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. >> >>(b) The field strength of any emissions which appear outside of this band >>shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in Sec. 15.209. >> >>I don't know that there is a difference anymore between Part 95 and Part 15 >>emissions in the CB band... the old Part 15, back when a license was >>required, used to be 100mW. > > > PART 15 in the CB band is 10,000 uV/meter @ 3 meter (100 mw).(Walkie > talkies and cordless phones are also 10,000 uV/meter @3 meters) While > on 13 MHz it's 10,000 uV/meter @ 30 meters or about 1.8 watts at 100 > feet. > > Todd N9OGL > OMEGA ONE RADIO > You are wrong about the FCC limits on 13 MHz. There is no mention of 10,000 uV/m. Here are the limits: Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.110-14.010 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emissions within the band 13.553- 13.567 MHz shall not exceed 15,848 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. (b) Within the bands 13.410-13.553 MHz and 13.567-13.710 MHz, the field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 334 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. (c) Within the bands 13.110-13.410 MHz and 13.710-14.010 MHz the field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 106 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. You are also wrong about the power level required to achieve these limits. The power required is much lower. Cheers, John Article: 227848 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: r2000swler@hotmail.com Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 10 Aug 2006 08:45:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1155224728.180816.69520@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> John - KD5YI wrote: > You are wrong about the FCC limits on 13 MHz. There is no mention of 10,000 > uV/m. Here are the limits: > > > Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.110-14.010 MHz. > > (a) The field strength of any emissions within the band 13.553- > > 13.567 MHz shall not exceed 15,848 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. > > (b) Within the bands 13.410-13.553 MHz and 13.567-13.710 MHz, the > > field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 334 microvolts/meter at > > 30 meters. > > (c) Within the bands 13.110-13.410 MHz and 13.710-14.010 MHz the > > field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 106 microvolts/meter at > > 30 meters. > > > You are also wrong about the power level required to achieve these limits. > The power required is much lower. > > Cheers, > John There appear to be two sets of part 15.225 rules floating around. shows: "[Code of Federal Regulations] [Title 47, Volume 1] [Revised as of October 1, 2001] >From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 47CFR15.225] [Page 726] TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION PART 15--RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES--Table of Contents Subpart C--Intentional Radiators Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.553-13.567 MHz. (a) The field strength of any emissions within this band shall not exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. (b) The field strength of any emissions appearing outside of this band shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits shown in Sec. 15.209. (c) The frequency tolerance of the carrier signal shall be maintained within 0.01% of the operating frequency over a temperature variation of -20 degrees to +50 degrees C at normal supply voltage, and for a variation in the primary supply voltage from 85% to 115% of the rated supply voltage at a temperature of 20 degrees C. For battery operated equipment, the equipment tests shall be performed using a new battery." And Also shows the 10,000uV/M at 30M Yet Dated sept 2005, shows the limits you quoted. What is troubling is the FCC has different specs on different documents at fcc.gov. Buy regardless of runinng 10,000uV or 15,848uV, one does NOT need a 100W transmitter to reach either of these levels. I have a 2W unit followed by a step attenuator coupled to a bufffer with a Zin of 50 Ohms and a Z Out of ~500. The buffer transistor is a 250mW and isn't even warm. This was the only easy way to allow the attenuator to accurately step the power level down. By the 15,848uV I guess I could increase my power from 5,000uV, to allow for the energy in the sidebands, to something like 10,000uV. Oh whoopy gea! Too much trouble to even think about changing as I had to back the exciter down to something like 1/2W to reach the 5,000uV level. Crystal Oscillator-buffer#1-amplifier-?20dB pad-step attenuator-buffer#2-matching- very poor radiator. I would guess I am running maybe 5mW into a modified CB ground plane antenna. Serious mismatch, but my "beacon" was only intended to reach about 1 mile. For an S2 reading I had to back the power down ~50% from max legal. So assume I am running 2.5mW with no attenuation, so for extra credit, what is my power level at -63dB? Terry Article: 227849 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 09:41:06 -0700 Message-ID: <1155228066.823171.58160@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1152931208.617498.208970@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> jawod wrote: > not THIS again at least it is one topic Article: 227850 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:46:46 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1154614371.351691.272240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44d216cb$0$2920$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155176877.061209.284650@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> On 9 Aug 2006 19:27:57 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >clfe wrote: >> "clfe" wrote in message >> news:44d20fd9$0$2919$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net... >> > >> > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message >> > news:LInAg.689$%j7.344@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> >> K4YZ wrote: >> >>> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>>> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode >> >>>> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize >> >>>> the individual characters? >> >>> >> >>> Probably, Cecil, since it would then make it difficult to pass the >> >>> test. >> >> >> >> You missed the point. The Morse code skill exam requires >> >> memorizing the characters. Memorizing is being condemned >> >> as an evil act. Since memorizing is evil, the Morse code >> >> skill exam should be the first thing to be eliminated. >> >> -- >> >> 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp >> > >> > In some cases, it "could" be said that hairs are being split. To have >> > "knowledge" of the code - could mean basically - you know it exists and >> > why it is used. To "know" the Morse Code, usually refers to KNOWING the >> > characters sufficiently to use them at whatever speed it is you can. On >> > the other hand, someone who isn't involved could say - that a Ham operator >> > is "knowledgable" in the code. Heck, to someone not IN Ham radio - they >> > could easily assume a NO CODE tech - KNOWS code. >> >> Just to clarify my point - many "assume" a Ham Operator - regardless the >> license - KNOWS code. So, if a "No Code" tech simply says "I"M A HAM >> OPERATOR" to someone not knowing the license class structure, the >> "assumption is made. AND unless that NC tech clarifies it, the unsuspecting >> person will go on in ignorance "assuming" ALL hams "know" code. Morse Code >> (per my recollection) has always been and most likely - even if only in >> history books - always will be known and associated with HAM RADIO. > >Heaven forbid that someone assumes that a lowly, unwashed Technician >know the CODE. inddeed shudder > >> lou > >Many "assume" that an Old Timer knows more than they actually know. >Most Old Timers are guilty of this kind of thinking. Furthermore, many >"assume" that newcomers to the hobby know little or nothing, and have >no desire to learn. Most Old Timers are guilty of this klind of >thinking. yep sad to say http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227851 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:47:17 -0400 Message-ID: References: <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> On 9 Aug 2006 19:18:06 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >Cecil Moore wrote: >> Al Klein wrote: >> > Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. >> >> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode >> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize >> the individual characters? >> -- >> 73, Cecil, http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > >We aren't made to memorize every value of resistor and capacitor, or >every offset for the six meter repeater subband. thank god http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227852 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:47:56 -0400 Message-ID: <2pomd29qvgm2espc15bdkdv5t33a0vqh0a@4ax.com> References: <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:25:30 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On 9 Aug 2006 19:18:06 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >>Cecil Moore wrote: >>> Al Klein wrote: >>> > Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. > >>> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode >>> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize >>> the individual characters? > >>We aren't made to memorize every value of resistor and capacitor, or >>every offset for the six meter repeater subband. > >And anyone copying CW character by character is never going to get any >further than someone talking letter by letter. Those who don't >understand it denigrate it. dengrate? how can it be denegrated? http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227853 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DB6541.1030806@fuse.net> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 12:56:33 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <2pomd29qvgm2espc15bdkdv5t33a0vqh0a@4ax.com> > > dengrate? > > how can it be denegrated? > http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ > it's "denigrate" Article: 227854 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: John - KD5YI Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <1155181568.757193.128490@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4XHCg.14569$rd1.12230@trnddc01> <1155224728.180816.69520@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:45:01 GMT r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > John - KD5YI wrote: > >>You are wrong about the FCC limits on 13 MHz. There is no mention of 10,000 >>uV/m. Here are the limits: >> >> >>Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.110-14.010 MHz. >> >> (a) The field strength of any emissions within the band 13.553- >> >>13.567 MHz shall not exceed 15,848 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. >> >> (b) Within the bands 13.410-13.553 MHz and 13.567-13.710 MHz, the >> >>field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 334 microvolts/meter at >> >>30 meters. >> >> (c) Within the bands 13.110-13.410 MHz and 13.710-14.010 MHz the >> >>field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 106 microvolts/meter at >> >>30 meters. >> >> >>You are also wrong about the power level required to achieve these limits. >>The power required is much lower. >> >>Cheers, >>John > > > There appear to be two sets of part 15.225 rules floating around. > > shows: > "[Code of Federal Regulations] > [Title 47, Volume 1] > [Revised as of October 1, 2001] >>From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access > [CITE: 47CFR15.225] > > [Page 726] > > TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION > > CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION > > PART 15--RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES--Table of Contents > > Subpart C--Intentional Radiators > > Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.553-13.567 MHz. > > (a) The field strength of any emissions within this band shall not > exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. > (b) The field strength of any emissions appearing outside of this > band shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits shown in > Sec. 15.209. > (c) The frequency tolerance of the carrier signal shall be > maintained within 0.01% of the operating frequency over a > temperature variation of -20 degrees to +50 degrees C at normal supply > voltage, and for a variation in the primary supply voltage from 85% to > 115% of the rated supply voltage at a temperature of 20 degrees C. For > battery operated equipment, the equipment tests shall be performed > using > a new battery." > > And > > Also shows the 10,000uV/M at 30M > > Yet > Dated sept 2005, shows the limits you quoted. > > What is troubling is the FCC has different specs on different documents > at fcc.gov. The first reference above appears to have been published in 2001. I can't tell the publication date of your second reference. Personally, I would take the 2005 publication date as gospel. (snip remainder) Article: 227855 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "K7ITM" Subject: FCC reaffirms BPL... Date: 10 Aug 2006 11:50:17 -0700 Message-ID: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> I suppose this news about the FCC rejecting requests to limit BPL is available other places, but here's a link to one report: http://www.powerpulse.net/news/story.php?storyID=15762&source=1 Sigh. Tom Article: 227856 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: FCC reaffirms BPL... Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:57:39 -0500 Message-ID: <12dn3tkpg44hu13@corp.supernews.com> References: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> K7ITM wrote: > I suppose this news about the FCC rejecting requests to limit BPL is > available other places, but here's a link to one report: > > http://www.powerpulse.net/news/story.php?storyID=15762&source=1 > > Sigh. > Tom > If BPL is so viable why is it only being deployed in metropolitan areas where Cable and DSL is available. It was sold to the FCC as a cheep way to provide high speed access to people outside Cable and DSL service areas. Right now is is in direct competition with those modes and the country bumpkins are left out again. This situation is similar to when the major power companies refused to extend their lines out into the country to farmers. Their excuse was that it would cost to much for each customer to make money. It took the Rural Electrification Act to create the REMC power companies. Now the big power companies what to take over the REMC's. Dave N Article: 227857 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: FCC reaffirms BPL... Message-ID: References: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <12dn3tkpg44hu13@corp.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:27:27 GMT On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:57:39 -0500, "David G. Nagel" wrote: >K7ITM wrote: >> I suppose this news about the FCC rejecting requests to limit BPL is >> available other places, but here's a link to one report: >> >> http://www.powerpulse.net/news/story.php?storyID=15762&source=1 >> >> Sigh. >> Tom >> > > >If BPL is so viable why is it only being deployed in metropolitan areas >where Cable and DSL is available. It was sold to the FCC as a cheep way >to provide high speed access to people outside Cable and DSL service >areas. Right now is is in direct competition with those modes and the >country bumpkins are left out again. This situation is similar to when >the major power companies refused to extend their lines out into the >country to farmers. Their excuse was that it would cost to much for each >customer to make money. It took the Rural Electrification Act to create >the REMC power companies. Now the big power companies what to take over >the REMC's. > >Dave N As I understand, repeaters costing many thousands of dollars are needed every mile or two along the electricity line to shoot the BPL signal on along. There's not enough population density out in rural areas to justify the cost. bob k5qwg Article: 227858 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "David G. Nagel" Subject: Re: FCC reaffirms BPL... Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:20:38 -0500 Message-ID: <12dnc9n6ghcrqa9@corp.supernews.com> References: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <12dn3tkpg44hu13@corp.supernews.com> Bob Miller wrote: > On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:57:39 -0500, "David G. Nagel" > wrote: > > >>K7ITM wrote: >> >>>I suppose this news about the FCC rejecting requests to limit BPL is >>>available other places, but here's a link to one report: >>> >>>http://www.powerpulse.net/news/story.php?storyID=15762&source=1 >>> >>>Sigh. >>>Tom >>> >> >> >>If BPL is so viable why is it only being deployed in metropolitan areas >>where Cable and DSL is available. It was sold to the FCC as a cheep way >>to provide high speed access to people outside Cable and DSL service >>areas. Right now is is in direct competition with those modes and the >>country bumpkins are left out again. This situation is similar to when >>the major power companies refused to extend their lines out into the >>country to farmers. Their excuse was that it would cost to much for each >>customer to make money. It took the Rural Electrification Act to create >>the REMC power companies. Now the big power companies what to take over >>the REMC's. >> >>Dave N > > > As I understand, repeaters costing many thousands of dollars are > needed every mile or two along the electricity line to shoot the BPL > signal on along. There's not enough population density out in rural > areas to justify the cost. > > bob > k5qwg Bob; That wasn't mentioned when BPL was first proposed. Dave BTW: I'm in the choir.... Article: 227859 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Robert Sherrod Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:35:46 GMT Radio Buff wrote: > "TimBob" wrote in > news:1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com: > >> In "Indepedance Day" morse code saves the world from the alien >> invasion! They made a movie about it so it must be true! >> Tim N7XAU > > > That movie was hokey. An alien invasion force with thousands of ships in > orbit would need to use our satellites to communicate with each other. > > Yah, right. > > Sc > There was only one ship in orbit in "Independence Day", the mother ship. All of the other ships that detached from the mother ship, the daughter ships, so to speak, were all within the Earth's atmosphere. That is why the satellites were necessary to overcome the line-of-sight problem between the mother ship and the daughter ships on the opposite side of the planet. Bobby KC9IHK Article: 227860 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Owen Duffy Subject: Re: FCC reaffirms BPL... Message-ID: References: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <12dn3tkpg44hu13@corp.supernews.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:45:01 GMT On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:27:27 GMT, Bob Miller wrote: >As I understand, repeaters costing many thousands of dollars are >needed every mile or two along the electricity line to shoot the BPL >signal on along. There's not enough population density out in rural >areas to justify the cost. Close... Whilst anything is possible, the chipsets implemented and being commonly deployed need a repeater at much much smaller intervals, eg the DS2 chipset needs repeaters typically after about 80 metres (~260'). The promotion of this as a total acccess solution to rural subscribers is misleading and dishonest, the potentially profitable market is in residential areas and triple-play more than very low density rural rollout. Owen -- Article: 227861 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700 Message-ID: <1155250020.616670.83970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> Robert Sherrod wrote: > Radio Buff wrote: > > "TimBob" wrote in > > There was only one ship in orbit in "Independence Day", the mother ship. > All of the other ships that detached from the mother ship, the daughter > ships, so to speak, were all within the Earth's atmosphere. That is why > the satellites were necessary to overcome the line-of-sight problem > between the mother ship and the daughter ships on the opposite side of > the planet. earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect and in centuries these folks never developded the tech to mach WWV (the time station?) it was nice movie even I as deadicated a Nododer as they come enjoyed the ending > > Bobby > KC9IHK Article: 227862 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: sat ant question From: Slow Code References: <20060805141055.3e228a15@localhost> <20060805192158.3dcc97f1@localhost> <4Y7Bg.4475$gY6.477@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com> <20060806005142.7b4d9f3f@localhost> <6qHBg.9394$qw5.7976@trnddc06> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:19:53 GMT ml wrote in news:m-07051B.19364210082006@news.verizon.net: > In article , > "Jerry Martes" wrote: > >> "ml" wrote in message >> news:m-2CBB39.20562907082006@news.verizon.net... >> > In article <6qHBg.9394$qw5.7976@trnddc06>, >> > "Jerry Martes" wrote: >> > >> >> "ml" wrote in message >> >> news:m-3712CF.05314007082006@news.verizon.net... >> >> > Someone asked if i was referring to amateur sat's, yes i was >> >> > referring to the amateur sats exclusivly >> >> > >> >> > my question remains, so if i must loose one compass direction what >> >> > should it be? >> >> > >> >> > thanks >> >> >> >> Hi ml >> >> >> >> The least valuable compass direction for you is either East or >> >> West, if >> >> the satellites are Polar Orbiting Satellites. >> >> >> >> Jerry >> >> >> >> SNIP SNIP >> > >> > thanks very much, being a real newbie i have to ask one quick one >> > >> > so are 'most' of the sat's polar orbiting? >> >> Hi ml >> >> I thought all the amateur satellites were polar orbiting. But, I >> really >> am not sure. Perhaps you could Google then download Orbitron. That >> site will show you all the satellites and their location as well as >> their path prediction. >> >> I'd strongly recomend your contacting the AMSAT group. There are >> some >> very well informed guys there. >> >> I mentioned that you might be willing to let your building shadow >> either >> East or West only because there will statistically fewer times when >> satelites will be passing there. the majority of the passes will be >> within a sector to your North-South. You will have to consider what >> kind of communication you want. That is, if you are interested in >> communicating with someone in Europe, and you are located in Florida, >> you sure wouldnt want to block out satellites to your East. But, >> if >> you are in Maine, you may have little interest in communicating with >> stations to your North. >> >> Jerry > > hmm the amsat idea was pretty good i guess i have a bunch of simple > questoints they could answer in a few seconds, apreciate again > everybodys help here :) i suddenly got bit by the sat bug so kinda > raw See www.amsat.org I'm a life member. The best book to get for beginners is the ARRL's 'Satellite Experimenters Handbook.' Satellite antennas don't need to be high. Mine are at 20 feet, just high enough to peek over the ridge line of the house when the satellite is on the horizon. As far as the compass direction question goes, what is your latitude, and just how much blockage will you have in the direction you loose? Satellites could be anywhere in the sky relative to your location if their inclination is greater than your latitude. 73 & hope to hear you on the birds soon. SC Article: 227863 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:31:26 GMT Slow Code wrote: > It was still Hokey. The aliens could do everything but provide their own > communications globally. They also couldn't provide a decent firewall for their computers. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227864 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N9OGL" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 10 Aug 2006 17:33:30 -0700 Message-ID: <1155256410.320232.141880@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> John - KD5YI wrote: > r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > > John - KD5YI wrote: > > > >>You are wrong about the FCC limits on 13 MHz. There is no mention of 10,000 > >>uV/m. Here are the limits: > >> > >> > >>Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.110-14.010 MHz. > >> > >> (a) The field strength of any emissions within the band 13.553- > >> > >>13.567 MHz shall not exceed 15,848 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. > >> > >> (b) Within the bands 13.410-13.553 MHz and 13.567-13.710 MHz, the > >> > >>field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 334 microvolts/meter at > >> > >>30 meters. > >> > >> (c) Within the bands 13.110-13.410 MHz and 13.710-14.010 MHz the > >> > >>field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 106 microvolts/meter at > >> > >>30 meters. > >> > >> > >>You are also wrong about the power level required to achieve these limits. > >>The power required is much lower. > >> > >>Cheers, > >>John > > > > > > There appear to be two sets of part 15.225 rules floating around. > > > > shows: > > "[Code of Federal Regulations] > > [Title 47, Volume 1] > > [Revised as of October 1, 2001] > >>From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access > > [CITE: 47CFR15.225] > > > > [Page 726] > > > > TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION > > > > CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION > > > > PART 15--RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES--Table of Contents > > > > Subpart C--Intentional Radiators > > > > Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.553-13.567 MHz. > > > > (a) The field strength of any emissions within this band shall not > > exceed 10,000 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. > > (b) The field strength of any emissions appearing outside of this > > band shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits shown in > > Sec. 15.209. > > (c) The frequency tolerance of the carrier signal shall be > > maintained within 0.01% of the operating frequency over a > > temperature variation of -20 degrees to +50 degrees C at normal supply > > voltage, and for a variation in the primary supply voltage from 85% to > > 115% of the rated supply voltage at a temperature of 20 degrees C. For > > battery operated equipment, the equipment tests shall be performed > > using > > a new battery." > > > > And > > > > Also shows the 10,000uV/M at 30M > > > > Yet > > Dated sept 2005, shows the limits you quoted. > > > > What is troubling is the FCC has different specs on different documents > > at fcc.gov. > > > The first reference above appears to have been published in 2001. I can't > tell the publication date of your second reference. > > Personally, I would take the 2005 publication date as gospel. > > (snip remainder) The second one (the bulletin from the office of Engineering and Technology) is from 1996. I would go with the 2005 one. That means my field strength can be more Hurray!! Todd N9OGL OMEGA ONE RADIO 13.556.00 MHz LSB Article: 227865 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <9emnd2hpk1a5gqrau9kaetnhvfmhe20qs9@4ax.com> References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:14:48 -0400 On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 22:35:46 GMT, Robert Sherrod wrote: >There was only one ship in orbit in "Independence Day", the mother ship. >All of the other ships that detached from the mother ship, the daughter >ships, so to speak, were all within the Earth's atmosphere. That is why >the satellites were necessary to overcome the line-of-sight problem >between the mother ship and the daughter ships on the opposite side of >the planet. Some invaders. They couldn't invade a race that hadn't progressed to the satellite stage yet. Suspension of disbelief aside, it was a pretty good movie. Article: 227866 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> <1155250020.616670.83970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:15:40 -0400 On 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect Is that a statement or a question? Article: 227867 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:16:30 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 00:31:26 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Slow Code wrote: >> It was still Hokey. The aliens could do everything but provide their own >> communications globally. >They also couldn't provide a decent firewall for their computers. Or a force field that could contain an atomic bomb. Article: 227868 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:18:03 +0100 Message-ID: > "Frank's" wrote > What is interesting, in my preliminary results, is that there is > only a 2% improvement in sky wave total radiated power with > 120 radials over 36 ===================================== Frank, If what you are saying is that efficiency is the same for both 36 and 120 radials, then, at least at 8 MHz, B,L&E's findings for LF do not apply at HF. Amateurs do not use LF. They use HF. ---- Reg. Article: 227869 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 18:53:36 -0700 Message-ID: <1155261216.830276.201740@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> References: <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> Al Klein wrote: > On 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect > > Is that a statement or a question? yes it is a stament and yes it is a question happy now kleinmind Article: 227870 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N9OGL" Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 10 Aug 2006 19:38:46 -0700 Message-ID: <1155263925.997301.3670@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> John - KD5YI wrote: > N9OGL wrote: > > Brenda Ann wrote: > > > >>"John - KD5YI" wrote in message > >>news:AqTBg.55239$Lh4.46900@trnddc02... > >> > >>>Slow Code wrote: > >>> > >>>>dxAce wrote in > >>>>news:44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com: > >>>> > >>>>>N9OGL wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Not Lloyd wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> wrote in message > >>>>>>>news:LLXAg.308$f31.98@newsfe7-win.ntli.net... > >>>>>>>are you using an ex Ham transmitter? > >>>>>>>I hear with LSB/USB get further than AM but is the LSB really wide > >>>>>>>enough for quality audio? Got a grandpappys MP1000 here that will rag > >>>>>>>50 watts AM all day long, but the band width is to narrow for > >>>>>>>anything like nice music audio... Speech is nice though. Maybe there > >>>>>>>is a wider AM filter than stock, some Ham wizardry to make it fit a > >>>>>>>decent audio element on to the carrier, > >>>>>>>...................................................................... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Transmitting on illegal frequencies with an illegal transceiver? > >>>>>>>Only stupid Toad would do that. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Gather around the legal frequencies this evening at 14.331 as we get > >>>>>>>a forum of LEGAL Hams together to discuss the nefarious activities of > >>>>>>>Toad and Roger. Look for this forum to begin on or about nine p.m. > >>>>>>>eastern time. Toad cannot join in, nor can KB9RQZ, since they are not > >>>>>>>licensed for this freq. Roger needs no invitation...he will lurk and > >>>>>>>jam as he sees fit. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Before you go around spouting that I'm running illegal, I would > >>>>>>suggestion that you read Part 15 (47 CFR 15) but more to the point 47 > >>>>>>CFR 15.225 > >>>>> > >>>>>How much power you running? Unable to hear you here, but I'll give a > >>>>>listen again tomorrow if you're still up and running. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>10000uV/m at 30m is the maximum. How much power into an isotropic > >>>>radiator give 10000uV/m at 30m. Of course, when the antenna has gain, > >>>>power has to be reduced to avoid illegal operation. > >>> > >>> > >>>My guess is 3 mW. > >>> > >>>John > >> > >>The level is the same as emissions within the CB band: > >> > >> > >>Sec. 15.227 Operation within the band 26.96-27.28 MHz. > >> > >>(a) The field strength of any emission within this band shall not exceed > >>10,000 microvolts/meter at 3 meters. The emission limit in this paragraph is > >>based on measurement instrumentation employing an average detector. The > >>provisions in Sec. 15.35 for limiting peak emissions apply. > >> > >>(b) The field strength of any emissions which appear outside of this band > >>shall not exceed the general radiated emission limits in Sec. 15.209. > >> > >>I don't know that there is a difference anymore between Part 95 and Part 15 > >>emissions in the CB band... the old Part 15, back when a license was > >>required, used to be 100mW. > > > > > > PART 15 in the CB band is 10,000 uV/meter @ 3 meter (100 mw).(Walkie > > talkies and cordless phones are also 10,000 uV/meter @3 meters) While > > on 13 MHz it's 10,000 uV/meter @ 30 meters or about 1.8 watts at 100 > > feet. > > > > Todd N9OGL > > OMEGA ONE RADIO > > > > You are wrong about the FCC limits on 13 MHz. There is no mention of 10,000 > uV/m. Here are the limits: > > > Sec. 15.225 Operation within the band 13.110-14.010 MHz. > > (a) The field strength of any emissions within the band 13.553- > > 13.567 MHz shall not exceed 15,848 microvolts/meter at 30 meters. > > (b) Within the bands 13.410-13.553 MHz and 13.567-13.710 MHz, the > > field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 334 microvolts/meter at > > 30 meters. > > (c) Within the bands 13.110-13.410 MHz and 13.710-14.010 MHz the > > field strength of any emissions shall not exceed 106 microvolts/meter at > > 30 meters. > > > You are also wrong about the power level required to achieve these limits. > The power required is much lower. > > Cheers, > John That's the revised version updated in 2006, the old version was 10,000 uV/m @ 30 meters. Todd N9OGL Article: 227871 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Sam" Subject: Share with you the joy of playing golf and business Date: 10 Aug 2006 19:40:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1155264055.893663.198080@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Hello, Please forgive me to disturb you. I know that you are fond of playing golf. I would like to share with you the joy of playing golf and introduce myself to you. I live in Guangdong province of China. Playing golf is also my favorite. I often watch the American golf match in my spare time. I almost go play golf every week. Because of the cheap labor force and rich resources in China, 90% of the world's golf equipments are produced in China. So the products are much cheaper than those in your country. I find the value of life >from playing golf. I run a golf trading company engaging in the export of the world's famous branded golf products. We mainly produce two types of golf: copy club and installed club. Firstly, copy club means the shaft and head of the club are produced by our factory. But they are certified products. It is hard for the beginner to identify both of them. The price is 25% of the market price.Such as TaylorMade 580 (complete club set including 13 chubs ) 3woods+9iron+1Putter+ TaylorMade cart bag is $490 ( including carriage), TaylorMade R7 425(complete club set ) is $480 ,Callaway x-18 (compete club set ) is $480 ,Callaway X-TOUR (complete club set ) is $480 ,Callaway big bertha (complete club set ) is $480. (All prices include shipping and handling) Secondly, assembly club is the product which is assembled with the certified shaft, head and grip which we purchase from other factories. And it is assembled by our more than 100 staffs and advanced equepments company.It is delicately assembled and packaged. So it is like the certified one in terms of material, weight and swing as well as the feeling of playing it . Even those who have played golf for more than years feel difficult to tell the difference. And the price is just 50% of the market price in in your country. Many foreigners are amazed at the products after using them. Such as TaylorMade 580 (complete club set ) 3woods+9iron+1Putter+ TaylorMade cart bag is $890 ( including carriage) TaylorMade R7 425(complete club set ) is $880 ,Callaway x-18 (compete club set ) is $880 ,Callaway X-TOUR (complete club set ) is $880 ,Callaway big bertha (complete club set ) is $880 . (All prices include shipping and handling) We could provide the world-famous clubs. Please contact me by email samgolfclub#hotmail.com or MSN Messenger if you need any type of our products. I will make a good quotation to you. It is more than promoting the products to you this time, what's more important is to make friends with you and share with you the cultural difference of golf between China and in your country well as the potential business opportunity. I am looking forward to hearing your own opinion of golf. Best wishes. Yours sincerely Sam wong samgolfclub@hotmail.com samgolfclub#hotmail.com Article: 227872 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 20:05:25 -0700 Message-ID: <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> Al Klein wrote: > On 9 Aug 2006 19:18:06 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > >Cecil Moore wrote: > >> Al Klein wrote: > >> > Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. > > >> Then why isn't knowledge of Morse code and the CW mode > >> sufficient? Why must someone be forced to memorize > >> the individual characters? > > >We aren't made to memorize every value of resistor and capacitor, or > >every offset for the six meter repeater subband. > > And anyone copying CW character by character is never going to get any > further than someone talking letter by letter. Those who don't > understand it denigrate it. You denigrate the resistor code. Article: 227873 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: sheilding?? Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:37:03 -0700 Message-ID: <12dnur4csch9mee@corp.supernews.com> References: The first and most important step is to heavily filter all conductors entering and leaving both units. This is important because all wires act as antennas, efficiently radiating and receiving the interference -- it doesn't matter how good the cabinet is if you have ways for interference to get through it. Filtering can be simple or difficult depending on what lines you're filtering, and doing a really good job requires considerable skill and knowledge. For the tuner, you can't filter the differential antenna current at the frequencies you want to receive, so you'll have to put it far away and heavily filter the common mode current. In addition to heavily filtering all conductors entering or leaving, you need to enclose each unit in its own secure box. Any decent conductor (e.g., copper, aluminum, or steel) will do for MF and above. The important thing is that it can't have any holes or slots except small ones, and even those will degrade the shielding. This means that all seams have to be sealed with multiple screws or rivets and/or RF gasketing material. Any large holes like one for a meter should be covered with screen which is solidly connected all around its perimeter. Those are just some of the basics. EMC is a challenging discipline, and doing a really good job of isolation generally requires skill and knowledge beyond that which most amateurs have. Roy Lewallen, W7EL ml wrote: > HI > > I was wondering in general, how best to create some VERY effective > shielding between some equipment > > for example, I wanted to stack my powersupply ontop of a tuner > > while each are in metal enclousures and properly"" grounded i wanted > to go further > > > what is the best way?? would a thin sheet of lead (i'd encase in a > rubber coating) or a sheet of copper? > > > or would the only way be to say get some copper tape and wrap the unit? > > > thanks Article: 227874 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 20:48:24 -0700 Message-ID: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Al Klein wrote: > On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > >You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, > >AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, > >then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. > > >However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So > >there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. > > That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than > the ability to memorize answers. Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... > >That is not true. You wish to change the written exams, not add > >practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty > >darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > > Add SSB, FM, etc., to the nothing there is today. Ummm? There's no Morse Code test anymore? > >So all ham radio is is Morse Code on HF? Or is it more than that? > > It's a lot more. Prove it. Show me the exams for all the other modes. > The question isn't what ham radio is, it's whether > one should be required to pass a realistic test to get a license. Yes!!! A realistic test. > >> No, I'm not addressing *where* the test is held at all - I'm > >> addressing *whether* there's any real test, which there isn't, except > >> for CW right now. Spitting out something you memorized is only a test > >> of memory. > > >Sounds like the Conditional License to me. > > The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an > FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the > location. Had everything to do with authenticity. You're asking for "real" exams, right? > >> I don't remember after almost 50 years - but I could still draw them > >> today, and it's not a test of remembering what's on the test, it's a > >> test of knowing what's in a radio. > > >Then advocate passing the current exam at every license renewal. > > What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a > test. So what is it that you fear? > > You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly. > > I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not > the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a > second. Mmmm. I see. You are a careerist in the electronics industry and it pisses you off that hobbyists have equal "status" as you in amatuer radio. I've run across a lot of that in the past 20 years... > >> >> From scratch. Let's see how many people could do that today. A > >> >> Colpitts oscillator, a Hartley oscillator and some other circuit that > >> >> I've forgotten at the moment. > > >> >You should self-modify your license and cease amateur operation until > >> >you remember. > > >> Why? Testing isn't about memory, it's about knowledge. > > >What if you forgot your band edges? > > What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest > tactics are transparent. You're the one that forgot the circuit, not me. Get pissed at your own self. > >> >The amateur is self-policing, and you no longer meet your own standard. > > >> Sure I do. The test wasn't to remember what circuits to draw, it was > >> to draw them. And I can draw them any time. > > >Then do so. Quit complaining to me that you can't remember what it was > >that you were supposed to draw. > > Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and > we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests. Correct. "WE" weren't discussing it. YOU were. YOU were discussing how you can't draw what you can't remember. > >> >> They're still as relevant today as they were 50 years ago. > > >> >Other things are relevant today that weren't even known 50 years ago. > > >> So let's have them on the test. > > >But if a practical exam is necessary for Morse Code, why isn't it > >necessary for other modes? > > Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal > on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show > the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The > bands would be pretty QRM-free. YES!!! If you are ever going to save your beloved Morse Code test, this is the only way you're going to do it. > > If all radio is merely plug and play, why do the services still have radio schools > > That's my point, not yours. No. It's MY point. > Or don't you understand what you just said? I think it is you who don't know where you're going with this discussion. It's gone beyond your having grief over your favorite mode to actually having to think about the future of the service. Conggrats. Another couple of years of RRAP tutoring and you just might become a rational being. > >> Oops, that's right - no more relevant testing, isn't that what people > >> are asking for? Just give me the answers so I can memorize them and > >> pick them out on the test. > > >Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole > >argument! > > So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the > schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on > 14 MHz"? That kind of relevance? Sure. But you have to ask yourself one question. Can the average VE administer such an exam? If not, can your average GS-7 FCC employee administer such an exam? If you set up an exam that only an engineer can administer, then your government isn't going to accept it. So be realistic in your zeal. > Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the > example" kind of relevance? The exam can be anything your VEC wants it to be. We learned this when the ARRL went from administering a Morse Code Exam at 5WPM to administering a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15WPM. > >> >> But you had to actually *know* a little theory to use one legally. > > >> >No you didn't. > > >> Yes, you did - you had to pass a test to show that you did. > > >There has never been a practical test to show that you could operate a > >radio. Ever. > > Do you understand what the word "theory" means? You got me there. And today's exams still provide that "theory" though they don't prepare you to actually operate a radio - never did. > >> All you > >> have to do now is memorize a few answers. > > >That's all you had to do then. > > How do you draw a schematic Memorization. > and explain the functions of parts by > memorizing answers? Memorization. > You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k" > or "coil". You can't memorize the def of phase shift? C'mon, aren't you supposed to be in the industry? > >> >I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military. > >> >I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce > >> >power once. > > >> But you had to learn how to use the radios. > > >I did? > > They just gave you a radio and said "use it"? On/Off and PTT. What else is there??? Oh, yeh, a magnetic compass and a chart where the satellite is. > >> Hams today don't - they > >> memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no > >> understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn. > > >Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed. > > When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by > answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a > published answer pool. Yes, you had to memorize paragraphs instead of multiple choices. Big deal. > >> You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted > >> here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want > >> to get on the air. Period. > > >W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted > >to get on the air. Period. > > Point? All you wonderful OF's taking trips down memory lane forget that some of your brother hams were bootleggers. It's only the unwashed No-code Techs that operate illegally. Hi!!! What a stinking load. > >> And you mistakenly believe that most hams today want to learn how to > >> operate properly. Listen to 75 some evenings. > > >Lots of OFs on there who should know better. That's why I hold the > >opinions that I hold. Your generation doesn't have a lock on decency, > >respect, or apatite for knowledge. Far from it. > > Very few of "my" generation there. Explain. > >> >I've listened to emergency responders on a scanner before. They don't > >> >use Morse Code, they don't use CW. They use FM/Voice. Somehow they > >> >are effective at it, not having taken a Morse Code test. How can this > >> >be? > > >> They were trained. > > >Not in Morse Code. > > You must be sitting on oil. Can't you stick to a topic long enough to > be coherent? You were discussing how someone can be efficient at > voice commo, not in Morse. Effective. > > If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must > >also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY > >(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > > I have no problem with that. Then go for it. It is the ONLY legitimate recourse you have for retaining the Morse Code exam. Best of luck. > >> >> So you'd get a license not knowing CW, build a radio (you couldn't buy > >> >> one then) and ... what? Sit and look at it. Some things are just too > >> >> obvious to need mentioning. > > >> >Please diagram that radio from "Scratch." > > >> Any time. Filter or phasing? BFO receive or quadrature detection? > >> I've designed them, built them and used them, and still could. > > >What is/was your profession? > > Trained as an EE. Spent years designing RF circuitry, then went into > digital design. "Is", not yet "was" - I'm still alive. Are you drawing a pension from it? "Was." Are you drawing a paycheck from it? "Is." And it's so typical for Old Timers to forget that not everyone in the ARS are CAREERIST PROFESSIONALS. Bitching and Moaning about how everyone else doesn't know as much as them. > >> >> What next? DXCC awards for those who *want* to work 100 countries? > > >> >You seem to be confused. DXCC is an award offered by the ARRL, not the > >> >FCC. It has nothing to do with licensing. > > >> But an award for wanting has to do with "I want it so it's my right to > >> have it", which is what I'm talking about. No one has any "right" to > >> get on the air. > > >Correct. And no one has a right to force their favorite mode on > >everyone else. > > I'm advocating real testing for whatever mode. Finally!!! I hope you won't hold it against me for badgering you into such a position. > Right now the only > test is "do you have the fee, can you get to the testing place, and > have you memorized enough answers to pass". Welp, other than "can you get to the FCC office" things sure haven't changed much in 50 plus years. > Let's have a test that > shows whether the testee knows anything. Remember that you are handsomely compensated for your professional knowledge. Amateur Radio is a non-compensated hobby. > CW, APRS, AX25, PSK - all of > it. Or separate the licenses. You want to operate FM, you take a > test on FM and, if you pass, you get an FM license. Endorsement. Remember - your VE has to be smart enough to administer the exam. > Want to operate > SSB, you take a different test. > > Not "want to get on the air? memorize some answers and pay your fee". And get a vanity license plate. You are awesome. You're finally catching on. Who say an old dog can't learn new tricks? Article: 227875 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <7tvnd2hacnubps2j0s2unb4ropv8ij3v05@4ax.com> References: <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> <1155250020.616670.83970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155261216.830276.201740@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:56:05 -0400 On 10 Aug 2006 18:53:36 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700, "an old friend" >> wrote: >> >earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect >> Is that a statement or a question? >yes it is a stament and yes it is a question And on what do you base your statement? Your extensive familiarity with dozens of Earth-like planets? Article: 227876 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 10 Aug 2006 21:00:36 -0700 Message-ID: <1155268835.997563.149810@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > Al Klein wrote: > > The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an > > FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the > > location. > > On the contrary, the Conditional was the General Class > license given away from an FCC office. To clarify, the test was given >at a distance< from an FCC office. The license was not "given away." > At the time I got > mine, the distance from an FCC office was set at 75 miles. > Quoting the 1957 ARRL License Manual: "The Conditional > Class license conveys privileges identical to those of > the General Class ..." which incidentally at the time, > was all amateur frequency operating privileges. General/Conditional Class = "All amateur priveleges," as in AMATEUR EXTRA priveleges. > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Hey Cecil, how've you been? Article: 227877 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: Subject: Re: sheilding?? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:04:34 +0100 Message-ID: The very first thing to do is to stack the PSU on top of the tuner and check to see if further precautions are really necessary. I very much doubt that they will. If there IS any interference, it will be picked up wherever in the shack the boxes are placed and the only solution will be to change the type of power unit. ===================================== Article: 227878 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: r2000swler@hotmail.com Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB Date: 11 Aug 2006 03:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: <1155293344.024124.93690@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> John - KD5YI wrote: > r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > > > > > I would guess I am running maybe 5mW into a modified CB ground plane > > antenna. > > Serious mismatch, but my "beacon" was only intended to reach about 1 > > mile. > > For an S2 reading I had to back the power down ~50% from max legal. So > > assume I am running 2.5mW with no attenuation, so for extra credit, > > what is my > > power level at -63dB? > > > > Terry > > > > Your question makes no sense. What is the reference level? 1 watt, 1 mW, 5 > mW, 2.5 mW? > > .5 microwatts is 63 dB below a Watt. > .5 nanowatts is 63 dB below a milliwatt. > 2.5 nanowatts is 63 dB below 5 milliwatts. > 1.25 nanowatts is 63 dB below 2.5 milliwatts. (Is this the one you want?) > > 2.5 milliwatts is 3 dB below 5 milliwatts. > > See a pattern in any of this? Once again I see why I should not take up comedy. It wasn't a serious question. I was reffereing to 5mW at 50 Ohms. Terry Article: 227879 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:09:09 +0000 From: Scott Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Message-ID: What about the Lowfers in the 135 KHz range? I've hear rumors of hams using those LF frequencies... Scott Reg Edwards wrote: >>"Frank's" wrote >>What is interesting, in my preliminary results, is that there is >>only a 2% improvement in sky wave total radiated power with >>120 radials over 36 > > ===================================== > Frank, > > If what you are saying is that efficiency is the same for both 36 and > 120 radials, then, at least at 8 MHz, B,L&E's findings for LF do not > apply at HF. > > Amateurs do not use LF. They use HF. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 227880 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:15:55 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> <1155250020.616670.83970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155261216.830276.201740@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> <7tvnd2hacnubps2j0s2unb4ropv8ij3v05@4ax.com> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:56:05 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On 10 Aug 2006 18:53:36 -0700, "an old friend" >wrote: > >>Al Klein wrote: >>> On 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700, "an old friend" >>> wrote: > >>> >earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect > >>> Is that a statement or a question? > >>yes it is a stament and yes it is a question > >And on what do you base your statement? Your extensive familiarity >with dozens of Earth-like planets? made no such claim you passion for efaration of statment is is much like another prooocder you harrasses the NG http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227881 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:17:21 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268835.997563.149810@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> On 10 Aug 2006 21:00:36 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >Cecil Moore wrote: >> Al Klein wrote: >> > The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an >> > FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the >> > location. >> >> On the contrary, the Conditional was the General Class >> license given away from an FCC office. > >To clarify, the test was given >at a distance< from an FCC office. > >The license was not "given away." but if you did not sit for the FCC it was a give away don't you know they crawled on thier hands knees tthough snow and broekn glass up hill BOTH ways > >> At the time I got >> mine, the distance from an FCC office was set at 75 miles. >> Quoting the 1957 ARRL License Manual: "The Conditional >> Class license conveys privileges identical to those of >> the General Class ..." which incidentally at the time, >> was all amateur frequency operating privileges. > >General/Conditional Class = "All amateur priveleges," as in AMATEUR >EXTRA priveleges. > >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > >Hey Cecil, how've you been? http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227882 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Richard Fry" References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: <44dc742a$1_2@newsfeed.slurp.net> "Reg Edwards" wrote: > >If what you are saying is that efficiency is the same for both >36 and 120 radials, then, at least at 8 MHz, B,L&E's findings >for LF do not apply at HF. __________ The BL&E measurements were made at 3 MHz. Article: 227883 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Rayburn" References: <1155264055.893663.198080@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Share with you the joy of playing golf and business Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:48:49 -0400 Message-ID: <5ea32$44dc7ca5$8b371664$16595@ALLTEL.NET> Sam Wong is wanting to flood the Market with fake golf clubs. Taylormade "Sam" wrote in message news:1155264055.893663.198080@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... > Hello, > Please forgive me to disturb you. I know that you are fond of playing > golf. I would like to share with you the joy of playing golf and > introduce myself to you. > I live in Guangdong province of China. Playing golf is also my > favorite. I often watch the American golf match in my spare time. I > almost go play golf every week. > Because of the cheap labor force and rich resources in China, 90% of > the world's golf equipments are produced in China. So the products > are much cheaper than those in your country. I find the value of life > from playing golf. I run a golf trading company engaging in the export > of the world's famous branded golf products. We mainly produce two > types of golf: copy club and installed club. > > Firstly, copy club means the shaft and head of the club are produced by > our factory. But they are certified products. It is hard for the > beginner to identify both of them. The price is 25% of the market > price.Such as TaylorMade 580 (complete club set including 13 chubs ) > 3woods+9iron+1Putter+ TaylorMade cart bag is $490 ( including > carriage), TaylorMade R7 425(complete club set ) is $480 ,Callaway x-18 > (compete club set ) is $480 ,Callaway X-TOUR (complete club set ) is > $480 ,Callaway big bertha (complete club set ) is $480. (All prices > include shipping and handling) > > Secondly, assembly club is the product which is assembled with the > certified shaft, head and grip which we purchase from other factories. > And it is assembled by our more than 100 staffs and advanced equepments > company.It is delicately assembled and packaged. So it is like the > certified one in terms of material, weight and swing as well as the > feeling of playing it . Even those who have played golf for more than > years feel difficult to tell the difference. And the price is just 50% > of the market price in in your country. Many foreigners are amazed at > the products after using them. Such as TaylorMade 580 (complete club > set ) 3woods+9iron+1Putter+ TaylorMade cart bag is $890 ( including > carriage) TaylorMade R7 425(complete club set ) is $880 ,Callaway x-18 > (compete club set ) is $880 ,Callaway X-TOUR (complete club set ) is > $880 ,Callaway big bertha (complete club set ) is $880 . (All prices > include shipping and handling) > > We could provide the world-famous clubs. Please contact me by email > samgolfclub#hotmail.com or MSN Messenger if you need any type of our > products. I will make a good quotation to you. > It is more than promoting the products to you this time, what's more > important is to make friends with you and share with you the cultural > difference of golf between China and in your country well as the > potential business opportunity. I am looking forward to hearing your > own opinion of golf. Best wishes. > > Yours sincerely > Sam wong > samgolfclub@hotmail.com samgolfclub#hotmail.com > Article: 227884 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268835.997563.149810@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:28:12 GMT Mark@kb9rqz.com wrote: > On 10 Aug 2006 21:00:36 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >> The license was not "given away." > but if you did not sit for the FCC it was a give away One of the definitions of "away" is "distant". The Conditional exam was given "away from" the FCC office. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227885 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "gianluca" <9a6nfg@hamradio.hr> Subject: need schematic Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 15:30:26 +0200 Message-ID: hy to all i need to find the schematic plan for an old rtx 70cm band , the name is :KF-430 from the ST COMMUNICATION , i think it is old 30 year quartz rtx for 70 cm band , if some one hawe a schematic plan I will be thank and buy it , 73 DE 9A6NFG ! Article: 227886 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: Re: sheilding?? Date: 11 Aug 2006 06:52:14 -0700 Message-ID: <1155304334.377009.143160@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: At HF most of the interference you're going to get from box to box is either conducted along some wires connecting them or radiated by some large metallic structure (the power cord, the house wiring, etc) that is connected to wires coming out of the boxes and then picked up by the antenna. Although Roy has excellent points about what you need to do to get solid EMI shielding, you can do a lot without plugging the holes in the boxes. Reg is right about the first step. Do you need extra measures at all? The second step is plugging the BIG leaks, which would involve doing things like filtering the unshielded cables coming in and out of things (ferrites on the power cord, for example). Your boxes already have some shielding by virtue of the fact that they're in metal enclosures (I assume). If you are having problems with, say, a switching PSU and you think it's leaking in to the tuner, try this. Replace the antenna and feedline with a good, shielded dummy load. Then see if there's any change in the noise in your RX between setting the PSU on the tuner and setting it elsewhere. Dan Article: 227887 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: From: Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:56:29 -0500 hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: : Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing : in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... You are failing (or choosing) to understand/acknowledge the difference between understanding the principles and simply rote memorising the answers. It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae that had been learnt to calculate the answer. -- 73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC Article: 227888 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:27:34 -0400 Message-ID: <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> wrote in message news:dteuq3-49v.ln1@chris.org... > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > : Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing > : in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... > > You are failing (or choosing) to understand/acknowledge the difference > between understanding the principles and simply rote memorising the > answers. It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with > corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions > were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae > that had been learnt to calculate the answer. > > -- > 73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC Even TODAY'S tests are not the same ie; Answer A in your study guide will coorespond to Answer A on the exam. ANYONE "memorizing" those answers is nothing short of a FOOL. It is far better to read that book for what little it is worth - for what it will "TEACH" you to understand - thereby making passing the exam almost a done deal. UNDERSTANDING AND REMEMBERING (Memorizing if you will) the BASE material is what gets you through. As the man said, at one time - there were no SET of exams. If you had no clue of electronics or rules and regulations where it came to Ham radio - you were "guranteed" to fail in front of the FCC. Often - that meant a long trip. Even at that - tests today - most VEs have at least 3 - 5 sets of exams per class. OR you could be given a test via computer which is randomly generated. So, to "memorize" ABCD just isn't going to cut it. As I said before - ya got to memorize many things to get through life - your SS number, your birthdate, your name, how to spell, read, write, add, subtract, driving a vehicle, etc......... the list goes on - SURELY you didn't "memorize" a simple ABCD answer for MOST of that! Memorizing your SS number, name and birthdate may equivalate to the ABCD method, but - when you were tested in school for subjects - you had NO clue what was to be asked. If you didn't pay attention to what was being taught - you most likely bombed the test. Again - we're splitting hairs here on the word "memorize". You can "try" to memorize ABCD to pass a test without studying (and hope the test conforms to the pattern you "memorized") OR you can MEMORIZE IT BY STUDYING it - (committ it to memory for life) -therby understanding the principles and being able to "honestly" answer the questions based on "knowledge" of the subject. I seriously do NOT understand the hang up on this issue. Maybe "I" am missing something - but it seems to me, I had to memorize (LEARN) a whole list of shit to be able to function in a meaningful life. Your mind is like a computer - you have to program it (study) - to learn things TO MEMORIZE FOR LIFE. Simply trying to recall ABCD on a test without understanding the concepts - you're still going to be dumb as shit even if you do pass. Wouldn't you rather "know" what you're supposed to know? Sure makes one look a bit more inteliigent. Maybe that is why so many people are so goofy on the highways - they "memorized" answers to the test instead of actually "learning" what the principle were/are. Makes sense to me! For those of you who parachute or do other "life endangering" tasks - I'd sure hate to be you - depending on someone who simply "memorized" ABCD on a test as opposed to "learning" the requirements to fulfill the task. No wonder this world is so screwed up............. TOO LAZY TO "LEARN". L. Article: 227889 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:36:43 -0400 Message-ID: <44dc95e3$0$6608$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "L." wrote in message news:44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net... > > wrote in message > news:dteuq3-49v.ln1@chris.org... >> hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >> >> : Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing >> : in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... >> >> You are failing (or choosing) to understand/acknowledge the difference >> between understanding the principles and simply rote memorising the >> answers. It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with >> corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions >> were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae >> that had been learnt to calculate the answer. >> >> -- >> 73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC > Damned I hate when I screw up - to make a correction here - the word in my second sentence should be . I didn't catch it before I hit send. I think I had a "Coors" beer on my mind... > Even TODAY'S tests are not the same ie; Answer A in your study guide will > coorespond to Answer A on the exam. ANYONE "memorizing" those answers is > nothing short of a FOOL. It is far better to read that book for what > little it is worth - for what it will "TEACH" you to understand - thereby > making passing the exam almost a done deal. UNDERSTANDING AND REMEMBERING > (Memorizing if you will) the BASE material is what gets you through. > > As the man said, at one time - there were no SET of exams. If you had no > clue of electronics or rules and regulations where it came to Ham radio - > you were "guranteed" to fail in front of the FCC. Often - that meant a > long trip. Even at that - tests today - most VEs have at least 3 - 5 sets > of exams per class. OR you could be given a test via computer which is > randomly generated. So, to "memorize" ABCD just isn't going to cut it. > > As I said before - ya got to memorize many things to get through life - > your SS number, your birthdate, your name, how to spell, read, write, add, > subtract, driving a vehicle, etc......... the list goes on - SURELY you > didn't "memorize" a simple ABCD answer for MOST of that! Memorizing your > SS number, name and birthdate may equivalate to the ABCD method, but - > when you were tested in school for subjects - you had NO clue what was to > be asked. If you didn't pay attention to what was being taught - you most > likely bombed the test. > > Again - we're splitting hairs here on the word "memorize". You can "try" > to memorize ABCD to pass a test without studying (and hope the test > conforms to the pattern you "memorized") OR you can MEMORIZE IT BY > STUDYING it - (committ it to memory for life) -therby understanding the > principles and being able to "honestly" answer the questions based on > "knowledge" of the subject. > > I seriously do NOT understand the hang up on this issue. Maybe "I" am > missing something - but it seems to me, I had to memorize (LEARN) a whole > list of shit to be able to function in a meaningful life. Your mind is > like a computer - you have to program it (study) - to learn things TO > MEMORIZE FOR LIFE. Simply trying to recall ABCD on a test without > understanding the concepts - you're still going to be dumb as shit even if > you do pass. > Wouldn't you rather "know" what you're supposed to know? Sure makes one > look a bit more inteliigent. > Maybe that is why so many people are so goofy on the highways - they > "memorized" answers to the test instead of actually "learning" what the > principle were/are. Makes sense to me! For those of you who parachute or > do other "life endangering" tasks - I'd sure hate to be you - depending on > someone who simply "memorized" ABCD on a test as opposed to "learning" the > requirements to fulfill the task. > > No wonder this world is so screwed up............. TOO LAZY TO "LEARN". > > L. > Article: 227890 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700 Message-ID: <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> L. wrote: > wrote in message > I seriously do NOT understand the hang up on this issue. Maybe "I" am > missing something - but it seems to me, I had to memorize (LEARN) a whole > list of shit to be able to function in a meaningful life. Your mind is like > a computer - you have to program it (study) - to learn things TO MEMORIZE > FOR LIFE. Simply trying to recall ABCD on a test without understanding the > concepts - you're still going to be dumb as shit even if you do pass. the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" Article: 227891 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "hasan schiers" Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:17:44 -0500 Message-ID: References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Reg, The K3LC study is probably the most definitive look at radials since BL&E. The following URL takes you to the *.pdf file wherein they evaluate radials under various soil conditions, on 160/80/40 meters. They used NEC-4 for their study. This is the study that resulted in the "radial optimization" formula that several of us have referred to. http://www.ncjweb.com/k3lcmaxgainradials.pdf Since this is all NEC-4...it should compliment what you are having Frank do. Here is the formula info: (This formula is from both QST and Low Band Dx'ers Handbook by Devoldre) Obviously a ton of short radials does not equal a ton of long radials, but it can get you really close. See the articles for limitations of the formula. Don't use the formula like this: Gee, I only have 200 feet for radial wire. It will give you the right answer....but...when you only use so little total wire, your losses will be quite a bit worse than the 0.5 to 1 dB that was the goal of the studies. The formula goes like this: (wire length in meters) N = ((2*PI*W)^0.5)/1.2 N equals the square root of the quantity (2*PI*WireLength) divided by 1.2 Where N = number of radials Where W = length in meters of available wire to make the radials Length of radials = W/N and the constant 1.2 is the tip separation in meters to produce the proper density on 80m ..this would be twice the density one needs for 160m and half what is needed on 40m. The value for minimum tip separation is simply .015 wavelength. So if you calculate a full wavelength for the freq in use, multiply it by .015 and that gives you the value for tip separation in the formula above. For 80m it is 1.2 meters Example: You have 500 meters (about 1640 feet) of radial wire available for your 80m vertical. How many and how long should the radials be: 46 radials, 10.8 meters (35.6 feet) will produce the lowest possible loss for this amount of available wire. This is a simple formula for how many radials to put down if you have "only so much wire". These days with copper prices through the roof, it pays to be economical and still stay within 0.5 to 1 dB of "what's best". 73, ...hasan, N0AN "Reg Edwards" wrote in message news:bMOdnaSZu4msRkbZnZ2dnUVZ8tOdnZ2d@bt.com... >> "Frank's" wrote >> What is interesting, in my preliminary results, is that there is >> only a 2% improvement in sky wave total radiated power with >> 120 radials over 36 > ===================================== > Frank, > > If what you are saying is that efficiency is the same for both 36 and > 120 radials, then, at least at 8 MHz, B,L&E's findings for LF do not > apply at HF. > > Amateurs do not use LF. They use HF. > ---- > Reg. > > Article: 227892 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Peter O. Brackett" References: Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:13:00 GMT Guys: FYI... Walt is correct. This "rec.radio.amateur.antenna" USENET NG (aka "rraa") and many other newsgroups redact any graphics, attachments or inserts associated with NG posts, allowing only text to be posted. This practice is followed of course in the interests of both memory and bandwidth conservation at the "free" USENET servers. No one running USENET servers makes money! However, a number of years ago a special USENET newsgroup was set up by USENET volunteers in the "alt.binaries" area, to be used for short term postings of graphics content related to electronics such as schematics, etc... There are a couple of minor problems associated with this approach. (1) For one, the biggest problem is that not all ISPs actually carry the "alt.binaries" groups due to either, server memory limitations or, because several (many?) alt.binaries groups carry pornograhic graphics. (2) The second small "problem" is that, again for reasons of memory conservation, the "turnover" of postings on those graphics/binaries groups is fairly high. That is postings are cycled through fairly quickly, usually with availability of only a week or so. And so one should surf on over to the alt.binaries group quickly to view or download any desired postings. All that said however, ya'll should find that "alt.binaries.schematics.electronics" (aka "abse") is a good place to post drawings, schematics, block diagrams, photos and other graphics content related to electronics and antennas, etc. The usual procedure in the "electronics" groups such as "sci.electronics.design" (aka "sed") is to mention that the graphics/schematic referred to in your postings, has been posted on the other NG that accepts graphics/binaries. For example lots of the folks who hang out and discourse on: "sci.electronics.design" (aka "sed") post their schematics, block diagrams, photos, etc... to "alt.binaries.schematics.electronics" (aka "abse"). There is no reason why the denziens of "rraa" cannot post their antenna graphics on "abse". Sign up for abse and... Go for it... just do it! Hope this helps. :-) -- Pete k1po Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL "Walter Maxwell" wrote in message news:gmghd21r3s18e3jga9537ubnb1cuk7iruc@4ax.com... > On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:39:13 GMT, "Frank's" > wrote: > >>"Walter Maxwell" wrote in message >>news:biehd215ddsv1h1r5aojrdch9vt5cnkrdt@4ax.com... >>> On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 15:39:16 +0100, "Reg Edwards" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>Any Tom, Dick and Harry can copy and build a circuit out of a book. >>>> >>>>But it takes a top-class engineer just to look at a strange circuit >>>>and describe what it does, how it works. >>>> >>>>These days, there are mostly Tom's, Dick's and Harry's! >>>>==================================== >>>>Amendment - >>>> >>>>For "circuit" read "antenna". >>>> >>>>"Tom's, Dick's and Harry's" has replaced "old wives". ;o) ;o) >>>> >>>>==================================== >>>> >>> Hello Reg, >>> >>> I haven't previously tried to attach a jpg file in this arena, but I'm >>> going to >>> try. If my jpg file comes through, can you describe what it does and how >>> it >>> works? >>> >>> Walt, W2DU >> >>Rats, now you have me intrigued Walt. Too bad the pic did not work. >>Just tried to post a picture, but it seems there is a filter on the NG to >>prevent such postings. >> >>Reg, have made a lot of progress in developing a NEC 4 model >>of a 100 radial system. Just have to iron out a few bugs. When this >>is completed I can try some high frequency models. >> >>Frank >> > Hi Frank, > > I used the 'help' menu in Agent, but it doesn't seem to let me post an > attachment. Guess, like you said, it must be an NG rule that prevents it. > Anyhoo, jist fertheleovit, I'm going to email you the jpg file fyi. > > Walt, W2DU Article: 227893 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <1T6Ag.1806$kO3.783@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:20:57 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > Let us know when your rule-of-thumb is available from your website. > I'm looking forward to seeing the details. The rule of thumb is pretty simple and is for 2L pop bottles. Wrapping at 2 turns per inch (RG-213) around a 4 inch diameter pop bottle, the optimum number of turns for a particular band is equal to the numbers of meters in a wavelength. In other words, use 40 turns on 40m, 20 turns on 20m, and 10 turns on 10m. It's not actually linear - just a rule of thumb. It is most accurate around 20m-17m. > I guess there will be the usual collection of over-meticulous > nit-pickers. Well, here's some data points that will probably surprise you. I don't have a pop bottle so I am using a Quaker's Oats box for a coil form. It is 5 inches in diameter which makes the diameter of the coil using RG-400 about 5.4 inches. I wrapped 8 turns at ~4 turns per inch. My EXCEL spread sheet indicates that coil is 1/4WL self-resonant at about 22.5 MHz making it a good choke on 15m. Doubling that 1/4WL self-resonant frequency to estimate the 1/2WL self-resonant frequency gives 45 MHz. Now brace yourself. The series impedance of that choke falls below 650 ohms at about 27.2 MHz. 650 ohms is the maximum impedance that my MFJ-259B will display. The choking impedance is never again higher than 650 ohms as frequency is increased. It goes to a minimum of 49 ohms at the 1/2WL self-resonant frequency of 45.6 MHz. Note that is reasonably close to double the 1/4WL self-resonant frequency of 22.5 MHz *calculated* by my EXCEL spreadsheet and by the BASIC program that I sent to you. There is a one-wavelength self-resonant point at ~88 MHz and a 1.5WL self-resonant point at ~122 MHz. These measurements seem to prove that the coiled coax choke acts more like a transmission line than like a lumped inductance. Conclusion: A coiled coax choke designed for 20m doesn't function very well on 10m or at any higher frequency. (A coiled coax choke designed for 10m also doesn't function optimally on 80m.) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227894 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Harbin Osteen" Subject: 'Paint-On' Antenna Test Flight Paves Way For Next-Generation High-Altitude Airships Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:36:09 -0700 Message-ID: Paint on antenna: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060716090949.htm -- SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO !sdohtem noitpyrcne devorppa-tnemnrevog troppus I - Article: 227895 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <0r6dnZgi4Kb6v0TZnZ2dnUVZ8smdnZ2d@bt.com> Subject: Re: Engineers - Photo 16b.jpg (0/1) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 19:54:43 +0100 Message-ID: "hasan schiers" wrote in message news:ebi72r$rcg$1@news.netins.net... > Reg, > > The K3LC study is probably the most definitive look at radials since BL&E. > The following URL takes you to the *.pdf file wherein they evaluate radials > under various soil conditions, on 160/80/40 meters. They used NEC-4 for > their study. This is the study that resulted in the "radial optimization" > formula that several of us have referred to. > > http://www.ncjweb.com/k3lcmaxgainradials.pdf > > Since this is all NEC-4...it should compliment what you are having Frank do. > > Here is the formula info: > > (This formula is from both QST and Low Band Dx'ers Handbook by Devoldre) > > Obviously a ton of short radials does not equal a ton of long radials, but > it can get you really close. See the articles for limitations of the > formula. Don't use the formula like this: Gee, I only have 200 feet for > radial wire. It will give you the right > answer....but...when you only use so little total wire, your losses will be > quite a bit worse than the 0.5 to 1 dB that was the goal of the studies. > > The formula goes like this: (wire length in meters) > > N = ((2*PI*W)^0.5)/1.2 > > N equals the square root of the quantity (2*PI*WireLength) divided by 1.2 > > Where N = number of radials > > Where W = length in meters of available wire to make the radials > > Length of radials = W/N > > and the constant 1.2 is the tip separation in meters to produce the proper > density on 80m ..this would be twice the density one needs for 160m and half > what is needed on 40m. The value for minimum tip separation is simply .015 > wavelength. So if you calculate a full wavelength for the freq in use, > multiply it > by .015 and that gives you the value for tip separation in the formula > above. For 80m it is 1.2 meters > > Example: > > You have 500 meters (about 1640 feet) of radial wire available for your 80m > vertical. How many and how long should the radials be: > > 46 radials, 10.8 meters (35.6 feet) will produce the lowest possible loss > for this amount of available wire. > > This is a simple formula for how many radials to put down if you have > "only so much wire". These days with copper prices through the roof, it pays > to be economical and still stay within 0.5 to 1 dB of "what's best". > > 73, > > ...hasan, N0AN ======================================== Hasan, Thanks very much for the formula of which I was entirely unaware. I will study it. I notice that it disregards resistivity and permittivity of the ground under under the antenna which, obviously, ought be taken into account even when only crudely known. There's a great difference between a soil resistivity of 25 and 5000 ohm-metres. This is similar to BL&E who simply state that if the length and number of radials are greater than certain amounts then soil characteristics don't matter. ---- Reg. Article: 227896 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1T6Ag.1806$kO3.783@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:07:51 +0100 Message-ID: <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> Cecil, What makes you think your EXCEL spread sheet (whatever that is) gives the right answers? Have you ever made any measurements of the harmonic resonant frequencies? If so, how did you do it? ---- Reg. Article: 227897 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "LenAnderson@ieee.org" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 12:31:43 -0700 Message-ID: <1155324703.131909.279070@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> From: hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com on Thurs, Aug 10 2006 8:48 pm Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy, rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap >Al Klein wrote: >> On 9 Aug 2006 19:14:54 -0700, hot-ham-and-che...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> >You couldn't be more wrong. If there were practical exams for SSB, FM, >> >AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY (which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc, >> >then it would be CRYSTAL clear that a Morse Code exam is valid. > >> >However, there are no such practical exams for the other modes. So >> >there need be no exam for Morse Code, either. > >> That's my point - there's no test any longer. For anything more than >> the ability to memorize answers. > >Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing >in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... Selective amnesia. "No one had to memorize anything" prior 1992. Not in grade school, not in college, not in industry, not in real life. Strange perception... >Ummm? There's no Morse Code test anymore? The International Morse Code test for United States amateur radio license classes General and Extra have NEVER GONE AWAY. That is especially true in the perception of the ARRL which still manages to insert the "necessities" for morsemanship in nearly everything it publishes. It's been six decades since Hiram Percy became ultimate DX but they still keep on with their demand that all [US] amateurs be proficient in that old mode. > The Conditional was whatever class was being tested for, but not at an > FCC office. It had nothing to do with the class, only with the > location. >> What current exam? Memorizing answers and writing them down isn't a >> test. > >So what is it that you fear? Klein fears CHANGE and, perhaps, feelings of obsolescence. Someone who has been a regular worker in electronics (radio is a subset of electronics) ought to damn well know and recognize that the state of the art in electronics has been CONSTANTLY changing. It's sometimes a chore to keep up, whether it be 1950 or 2000 or any time in-between. >> > You'd probably be weeded out pretty quickly. > >> I doubt it - if I couldn't pass an Extra theory exam - a real one, not >> the nonsense that passes for one these days - I'd lose my job in a >> second. > >Mmmm. I see. You are a careerist in the electronics industry and it >pisses you off that hobbyists have equal "status" as you in amatuer >radio. I've run across a lot of that in the past 20 years... I've run across a lot of that my entire life. :-) I think Klein wants recognition as a "professional amateur" or "amateur professional." I'm not sure which... >> What if you addressed what I said when you answer me? Your dishonest >> tactics are transparent. > >You're the one that forgot the circuit, not me. Get pissed at your own >self. When in doubt of an effective reply, these Fundamentalist Morseodists must resort to some form of denigration. Sigh, they never learn... >> Quit putting words in my mouth. I wasn't complaining to anyone, and >> we weren't discussing remembering 50 year old tests. > >Correct. "WE" weren't discussing it. YOU were. YOU were discussing >how you can't draw what you can't remember. This is an indicator that Klein isn't used to computer-modem communications. He isn't looking beyond his own screen and understanding that others are separated from it in time and space. "He" was obviously talking about "old days" of "His." He is not considering that others do not share his viewpoints. Considering the Type of Oscillator and "names," he has put Names as somehow "essential" to the circuit. NO SUCH THING. An oscillator is simply an amplifier of just-barely-past-unity gain with positive feedback. The Names were tacked on by academics long, long ago as IDENTIFICATION of the general form of amplification-with-positive-feedback. One can build a Colpitts oscillator, make it work, and continue calling it a Hartley. Won't make a bit of difference to the circuit...electrons don't give a damn about human labels. They work by THEIR laws, not humans' with their imperative labels. By the way, on a quick bit of checking, I've got text references to about 11 different oscillator forms, not just two (with his unknown third type)...and I'm not counting free-running multi- vibrators which are also very much an "oscillator." >> Maybe we should have one - show the ability to put a clean PSK signal >> on the air. Show the ability to interpret a waterfall display. Show >> the ability to tell the difference between various digital modes. The >> bands would be pretty QRM-free. > >YES!!! [ no... ] >If you are ever going to save your beloved Morse Code test, this is the >only way you're going to do it. The only way to "save his beloved morse code test" is to have the ARRL exercise some BETTER brainwashing than it has been doing for decades. The League is still trying to use its old persuasion and, so far, hasn't been able to get memberships from the 3/4 of all licensed US radio amateurs who are NOT ARRL members... >I think it is you who don't know where you're going with this >discussion. It's gone beyond your having grief over your favorite mode >to actually having to think about the future of the service. >Conggrats. Another couple of years of RRAP tutoring and you just might >become a rational being. I disagree, Brian. Klein is a MORSEMAN. They don't change. They are rooted in old days long gone, brainwashed early into thinking that morsemanship is "essential" to "best" radio communication. It isn't...easily proved by ALL the OTHER radio services giving up on morse code as a mode (if they had it once) or never requiring it since a radio service began. >> >Who said that? We absolutely NEED relevant exams. That is my whole >> >argument! > >> So you're in favor of exams that test knowledge of theory? "Draw the >> schematic of ..."? "Explain why long path 2400 bps is impossible on >> 14 MHz"? That kind of relevance? > >Sure. But you have to ask yourself one question. Can the average VE >administer such an exam? If not, can your average GS-7 FCC employee >administer such an exam? If you set up an exam that only an engineer >can administer, then your government isn't going to accept it. So be >realistic in your zeal. Klein hasn't considered the simple fact that, by law, the VEs do NOT have to be trained test-adminsters. They are simply VOLINTEERS who have the requisite license class and GIVE OF THEIR OWN TIME to adminster tests. VEs are accountable only to the FCC in that volunteer testing. VEs' only "penalty" in mis-administering an amateur test is a reduction in license class or forteiture of their amateur license. Klein and his "tests aren't like they were in 'my' time" bitchers and moaners HAD their chance to keep privatization in testing from happening long ago. Legal means to stop it by NPRM Commentary didn't make their case. Privatization happened for BOTH amateur and commercial licenses. Now their whine is long past its time and has turned to vinegar. >> Or the "pick the answer with the resistor like we showed you in the >> example" kind of relevance? > >The exam can be anything your VEC wants it to be. We learned this when >the ARRL went from administering a Morse Code Exam at 5WPM to >administering a Farnsworth Exam at 13-15WPM. True enough, Brian, but expect ten kinds of flak from the other morsepersons in here on that... :-) The VEC can LEGALLY generate a Question Pool with ONE HUNDRED times the minimum required number of questions. With electronic transmittal over the Internet the Question Pool can be updated within 24 hours to ALL VE groups. Say the FCC requires a minimum of 50 questions on a written test element. If the VEC QPC generates the Question-Answer pool with FIVE THOUSAND QUESTIONS (and answers), it should be obvious that mere "memorization" sufficient to pass that written test element is out of the question. Anyone who CAN memorize that prodigious amount is already gifted as an eidetic and those are extremely rare among humans. What all that concentration on the "written tests" is about is just a DIVERSION to keep from replying on the singular morse code test continuation. The morsemen just haven't been able to come up with sufficently-valid reasons to keep the morse test (other than the emotional ones) so they smoke-screen by bringing up the writtens. Old tactic of theirs. >> How do you draw a schematic > >Memorization. Correct. >> and explain the functions of parts by >> memorizing answers? > >Memorization. Correct again. >> You can't explain phase shift by memorizing "10k" >> or "coil". > >You can't memorize the def of phase shift? > >C'mon, aren't you supposed to be in the industry? We don't know WHERE, Brian, or for WHOM. :-) >> >> >I used radios in the military. I never used a CW key in the military. >> >> >I never jammed another operator, although Brandywine asked me to reduce >> >> >power once. > >> >> But you had to learn how to use the radios. > >> >I did? > >> They just gave you a radio and said "use it"? > >On/Off and PTT. What else is there??? [ ahem..."volume" and "squelch" to name two... :-) ] >Oh, yeh, a magnetic compass and a chart where the satellite is. Darn you "kids!" Weren't any of those newfangled gizmos like "satellites" when I was in the Army. :-) The AN/PRC-8 backpack VHF transceivers (one of which I wore in PIP Training) also had VFO frequency control along with a built-in "crystal calibrator." Nothing like the "channel selection" of a later synthesized AN/PRC-25 (also FM on VHF). Interesting engineering feat with that VFO control over a military temperature and vibration environment. Copied from the old SCR-300 "walkie-talkie" of WW2, devised by Motorola (also FM on VHF). But, I digress, that was Practical Theory as applied by professional engineering, used by professional military people...didn't have the majesty of AMATEURISM and all its nobility (and class distinctions). >> >> Hams today don't - they >> >> memorize a few answers, buy equipment and get on the air - with no >> >> understanding of what they're doing, and no desire to learn. > >> >Then it hasn't changed much since you were first licensed. > >> When I was licensed you had to show an understanding of theory, by >> answering questions that were more than just multiple choice from a >> published answer pool. > >Yes, you had to memorize paragraphs instead of multiple choices. Big >deal. Good grief, all that crying and wailing over Test Privatization! Maybe we should take up a collection to send him some Kleenex? Seems to me that COLLEGE-level course tests that I took had a LOT of memorization. Maybe we should all slam the academic world for doing the same "memorization?" Hey, why not, all those who failed college level courses can get a Wailing Wall! My state drivers' license testing is done from multiple-choice and that requires MUCH memorization of the applicable laws. While the CA DMV does not publish the EXACT answers, the have lots and lots of examples, not only well-publicized but available free in little booklets at each DMV office. Maybe Klein wants me to take an ME degree course in automotive engineering just to drive our Malibu MAXX? :-) >> >> You may, but I can see from many of the comments that have been posted >> >> here that a lot of people don't. They don't want to learn, they want >> >> to get on the air. Period. > >> >W3RV didn't wait to get a ham license before operating! He just wanted >> >to get on the air. Period. > >> Point? > >All you wonderful OF's taking trips down memory lane forget that some >of your brother hams were bootleggers. > >It's only the unwashed No-code Techs that operate illegally. Hi!!! >What a stinking load. Brian, if you check out the "official" history of the ARRL you will find out that they BEGAN in trying to circumvent the commercial telegram system with a relaying of messages past the commercial boundaries and FEES. If that were reported today, the journalists would call it "hacking." >> > If you must retain a Morse Code Exam, then you must >> >also administer practical exams for SSB, FM, AM, FSTV, SSTV, RTTY >> >(which is pretty darned old), packet, PSK, etc. > >> I have no problem with that. > >Then go for it. > >It is the ONLY legitimate recourse you have for retaining the Morse >Code exam. > >Best of luck. I hope he tries it. I'm anxious to find out how much hostility he will engender from his fellow amateurs who are VEs...how they have to spend many more hours (of their own time) in testing each license applicant (separately). Ought to go over like a concrete balloon... >> Trained as an EE. Spent years designing RF circuitry, then went into >> digital design. "Is", not yet "was" - I'm still alive. > >Are you drawing a pension from it? "Was." > >Are you drawing a paycheck from it? "Is." > >And it's so typical for Old Timers to forget that not everyone in the >ARS are CAREERIST PROFESSIONALS. Bitching and Moaning about how >everyone else doesn't know as much as them. Klein has yet to define his own label, whether it is "professional amateur" or "amateur professional." He seems undecided. I'm one of the (chronological) Olde Fahrts in this group but I pray to God that I won't ever get as bad as some of them with their retro attitudes and fixations with modes of their long- ago youth, the ultra importance of CLASS and RANK. Geez. You'd think that some of them regard amateur radio like the USMC! ["the few, the ultra proud (of morsemanship)"] >> Let's have a test that >> shows whether the testee knows anything. > >Remember that you are handsomely compensated for your professional >knowledge. Amateur Radio is a non-compensated hobby. Some of these Olde Fahrts seem to think their amateurism is on some kind of "higher plane" than ordinary, plebian, work. They be BETTER than the pros and keep reinforcing each other with that pipe-dream. After all, the ARRL keeps reminding them of their greatness, their "service to their country" (by having their hobby). To hear them talk the nation would immediately fall apart without these federally-licensed hobbyists! We'll have to get Mr. Webster to work coming up with a better definition of the hobby. Is it "professional amateurism" or "amateur professionalism?" I opt for the latter but others may differ. Beep, beep... LenAnderson@ieee.org Article: 227898 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "n3ox.dan@gmail.com" Subject: For the potential magloop builder... Date: 11 Aug 2006 12:46:20 -0700 Message-ID: <1155325580.559152.138220@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> I realized today doing some cursory checks on copper vs. aluminum prices that you can nearly purchase a small TIG welder with the savings of using aluminum instead of copper in a big magloop (think 10' square, 2" tubing low bander). I think it even holds true if you use larger diameter aluminum to make up for the lower conductivity of aluminum vs. copper. Just a thought if you've always wanted to use aluminum in a large magloop but went to copper because you couldn't figure out how to get low-resistance joints in aluminum! 73, Dan Article: 227899 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DCE9F4.64748FE4@no_bpl_for_me.net> From: carl Subject: Re: FCC reaffirms BPL... References: <1155235817.845564.294860@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <12dn3tkpg44hu13@corp.supernews.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:35:02 GMT Yes, it can't make money without large customer base. It is interesting, the head of the FCC has ZERO technical experience within the RF arena, however, he holds several degrees from NC Universitites, and is a lawyer. Just like the FCC comm. before him, Powell and Abernathy think BPL is the Nirvana for internet. Would be cheaper for the power companies to run fiber cable on or under the existing poles that carry the big power to the dist. stations. Then they can deply wifi or other service. Or even lease the cable to other providers. Once the power co. can put the bpl into their rate base they can charge customers for the hardware even if they don't use bpl. With luck, it will just be too expensive to even consider. Article: 227900 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Telamon Subject: Re: STATION IS ON 13.556.00 MHz. LSB References: <1154753502.134296.13500@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <6u8u6.lb.17.1@news.alt.net> <1154828398.867631.246080@n13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44D549DC.5C4BDE2C@milestones.com> <1155181568.757193.128490@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4XHCg.14569$rd1.12230@trnddc01> <1155224728.180816.69520@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <2QSCg.68099$gU4.26242@trnddc07> <1155293344.024124.93690@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:46:54 GMT In article <1155293344.024124.93690@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > John - KD5YI wrote: > > r2000swler@hotmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > I would guess I am running maybe 5mW into a modified CB ground > > > plane antenna. Serious mismatch, but my "beacon" was only > > > intended to reach about 1 mile. For an S2 reading I had to back > > > the power down ~50% from max legal. So assume I am running 2.5mW > > > with no attenuation, so for extra credit, what is my power level > > > at -63dB? > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > Your question makes no sense. What is the reference level? 1 watt, > > 1 mW, 5 mW, 2.5 mW? > > > > .5 microwatts is 63 dB below a Watt. .5 nanowatts is 63 dB below a > > milliwatt. 2.5 nanowatts is 63 dB below 5 milliwatts. 1.25 > > nanowatts is 63 dB below 2.5 milliwatts. (Is this the one you > > want?) > > > > 2.5 milliwatts is 3 dB below 5 milliwatts. > > > > See a pattern in any of this? > > Once again I see why I should not take up comedy. It wasn't a serious > question. > > I was reffereing to 5mW at 50 Ohms. Fewer people would get confused by posts if dBm instead of dB were used when transmit power level or receiver sensitivity is spoken. I know I would. dB being a relative measure should only be used when speaking of a component like an attenuator or amplifier not a level of power and just invites the possibility of confusing the reader. -- Telamon Ventura, California Article: 227901 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:09:55 -0400 On 10 Aug 2006 20:05:25 -0700, hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >You denigrate the resistor code. Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. Article: 227902 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:13:28 -0400 On 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and >passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your mouth and proving it? Article: 227903 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:15:57 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:55:09 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >It is hard to understand how anyone could develop that correct >answer from first principles or formulas. No one but you even mentioned "first principles" in this discussion. It's certainly not part of the discussion. > I memorized the >correct answer and it still exists in my memory as something >I once memorized long before I ever knew there was a man named >Ohm after whom the unit of electrical resistance was named. You still don't understand (or want to acknowledge) the difference between learning that Ohm was a scientist after whom the unit of resistance was named, and "the answer to the question with the 10k resistor is 'greater'". Article: 227904 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <1T6Ag.1806$kO3.783@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> Message-ID: <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:17:50 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > What makes you think your EXCEL spread sheet (whatever that is) gives > the right answers? Because it agrees within 3% of my actual measurements. It's the same formula covered by the BASIC program that I emailed to you. > Have you ever made any measurements of the harmonic resonant > frequencies? The posting to which you are responding has three of those measured harmonic resonant frequencies. > If so, how did you do it? I put the coaxial choke across my MFJ-259B terminals and looked for low impedances. They occurred at 45.6 MHz, 88 MHz, and 122 MHz corresponding to 1/2WL, 1WL, and 1.5WL. That proves that the VF given by Corum's equation is correct because it predicted the 1/4WL point at 22.5 MHz, within 3% of the measured results. And if the Corum equation is valid for coaxial chokes, it is probably also valid for mobile antenna loading coils. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227905 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <1vspd2h3kjocrth54dn5dpl6kkaskjecb6@4ax.com> References: <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> <1155250020.616670.83970@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155261216.830276.201740@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> <7tvnd2hacnubps2j0s2unb4ropv8ij3v05@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:19:42 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:15:55 -0400, Mark@kb9rqz.com wrote: >On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:56:05 -0400, Al Klein >wrote: > >>On 10 Aug 2006 18:53:36 -0700, "an old friend" >>wrote: >> >>>Al Klein wrote: >>>> On 10 Aug 2006 15:47:00 -0700, "an old friend" >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect >> >>>> Is that a statement or a question? >> >>>yes it is a stament and yes it is a question >> >>And on what do you base your statement? Your extensive familiarity >>with dozens of Earth-like planets? >made no such claim You said, "earth is the only earthlike planet with a heavyside layer effect". What did you base that claim on? >you passion for efaration of statment Who of which? I know the internet is an international thing, but could we keep it to HUMAN languages, please? Or at least languages used by mobile beings? I don't speak Tree. Article: 227906 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:22:53 -0700 Message-ID: <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> user@private-mail-domain.invalid wrote: > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > : Lots of memorization was required in your day. It's only a bad thing > : in 1992 to present. I think I get your drift... > > You are failing (or choosing) to understand/acknowledge the difference > between understanding the principles and simply rote memorising the > answers. It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with > corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions > were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae > that had been learnt to calculate the answer. > > -- > 73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC I learned the formulas and worked the probs longhand. Trying to memorize all those answers was just too much work. Article: 227907 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> Message-ID: <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:27:26 GMT Al Klein wrote: > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >> You denigrate the resistor code. > > Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the > resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, > the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. Even with the resistor color code, most of us *MEMORIZED* a jingle like: Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly I believe the military used to teach their technicians to *MEMORIZE* that jingle. Exactly how does one develop the resistor color code from first principles? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227908 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <7I6Dg.7770$FN2.6278@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:32:51 GMT Al Klein wrote: > wrote: >> the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and >> passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" > > If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your > mouth and proving it? The issue is that if there's something wrong with the tests, that is not the fault of the test takers. It is the fault of the test designers. Given a person with a PhD in electronics, 50 years experience, and capable of doing 50 wpm in Morse code, all he can do presently is pass the present day test requirements and then be belittled by people like you who are inferior to him in every way. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227909 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:33:52 -0700 Message-ID: <1155332031.122826.289560@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: Al Klein wrote: > On 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and > >passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" > > If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your > mouth and proving it? "My test was better than your test and that makes me a better ham." Article: 227910 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:36:49 GMT Al Klein wrote: > You still don't understand (or want to acknowledge) the difference > between learning that Ohm was a scientist after whom the unit of > resistance was named, and "the answer to the question with the 10k > resistor is 'greater'". Of course I understand. When I took my Conditional exam, I didn't know Mr. Ohm from a hole in the ground. I simply *MEMORIZED* that the ohm was the unit of resistance. I had no idea how to know that except by *MEMORIZATION*. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227911 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:39:11 GMT hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > I learned the formulas ... Did you *Heaven Forbid* memorize any formulas? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227912 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 14:49:42 -0700 Message-ID: <1155332982.632328.303450@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > I learned the formulas ... > > Did you *Heaven Forbid* memorize any formulas? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Absolutely. Article: 227913 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John Passaneau" References: Subject: Re: 'Paint-On' Antenna Test Flight Paves Way For Next-Generation High-Altitude Airships Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:48:46 -0400 Message-ID: I had this idea 20 years ago. I thought it would be great to paint a Yagi on the side of a blimp and then you could tune it by putting more or less gas in the blimp. -- John Passaneau State College Pa. w3jxp@adelphia.net "Harbin Osteen" wrote in message news:o8adnW7Pb_SRU0HZnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@adelphia.com... > Paint on antenna: > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060716090949.htm > > -- > > SeeYaa:) Harbin Osteen KG6URO > > !sdohtem noitpyrcne devorppa-tnemnrevog troppus I > - > > > > Article: 227914 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 15:54:33 -0700 Message-ID: <1155336873.334573.182430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: Al Klein wrote: > On 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and > >passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" > > If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your > mouth and proving it? but I do uderstand the issue the real issue not the smoke screen you are trying to blow (wether your own one you have been brainwashed into accepting Article: 227915 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:04:00 +0200 From: Dominique Michel Subject: Re: sheilding?? Message-ID: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> References: Le Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:57:00 GMT, ml a écrit : > HI > > I was wondering in general, how best to create some VERY effective > shielding between some equipment > > for example, I wanted to stack my powersupply ontop of a tuner > > while each are in metal enclousures and properly"" grounded i wanted > to go further > > > what is the best way?? would a thin sheet of lead (i'd encase in a > rubber coating) or a sheet of copper? > > > or would the only way be to say get some copper tape and wrap the unit? > > > thanks You must first try to stack the supply on the top of the tuner and hear what append. If it is HF EMC, Roy and Dan give you some advices for that. If it is 50 or 100Hz, only mu-metal will do something. With copper or metal, you will only get Foucault's current in the shield, and those currents will make a new EM field on the other side of the shield. Successive metal shields can even be a very good mean to transport at distance a low frequency magnetic field. So, only mu-metal will be effective in that case. Dominique Article: 227916 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Roy Lewallen Subject: Re: sheilding?? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: <12dq4okkenggc0f@corp.supernews.com> References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> Dominique Michel wrote: > . . . > If it is 50 or 100Hz, only mu-metal will do something. With copper or > metal, you will only get Foucault's current in the shield, and those > currents will make a new EM field on the other side of the shield. > Successive metal shields can even be a very good mean to transport at > distance a low frequency magnetic field. So, only mu-metal will be > effective in that case. That's absolutely right, although you might get by with a good layer of steel for mains-frequency shielding. I was thinking only of RF interference. If you're having problems with mains-frequency hum from the power supply transformer's field or the field from the conductors between the transformer and the filter, you'll need some highly permeable material. Steel might be adequate, but mu-metal is better. Roy Lewallen, W7EL Article: 227917 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? From: Slow Code References: <30954.oidi09.d0904.ddoi0@qkd.org> <12bactjanpufjfc@corp.supernews.com> <1154983516.647638.262900@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com> <6xOCg.84281$FQ1.57123@attbi_s71> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:03:18 GMT Cecil Moore wrote in news:ydQCg.6172$kO3.2096@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com: > Slow Code wrote: >> It was still Hokey. The aliens could do everything but provide their >> own communications globally. > > They also couldn't provide a decent firewall for their computers. Maybe their OS was a Microsoft product too. LOL SC Article: 227918 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:05:58 -0400 From: Dave Subject: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. Message-ID: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> My setup is Hustler MO-2 with center loading coils and top stinger [appropriate for each band]. For the sake of this discussion I'll refer to my 60 meter antenna. The antenna is tuned to resonance at 5.3715 MHz using an MFJ-259B. Adding approximately 4 inches [small spring for coil strain release] immediately below the coil and at the top of the MO-2 has negligible effect on resonance [a few KHz]. Now, varying the stinger above the loading coil by 4 inches causes very large changes in resonant frequency of over 300 KHz. What's happening in the world of Antenna Physics to account for the change in sensitivity as a function of position above or below the loading coil? Having asked the question, I'll slide back into the internet ether, wait for sunspots to improve, and read the opinions and comments that follow. Article: 227919 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Amerigo Vespucci" Subject: heating pad Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:15:04 GMT Would a heating pad cause RFI ? My wife has intermittent back problems and when she uses her heating pad it seems I get spikes of RFI on my AM reciever. I'm assuming it's that. I can't seem to track anything else that may be causing it.Thanks in advance, Will kilo alpha three victor india delta is my call __ __ ... ...__ __ -- Humble to the humble , inflexible to the arrogant . Article: 227920 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: heating pad Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:30:31 -0000 Message-ID: <12dq8971njrv5cf@corp.supernews.com> References: In article , Amerigo Vespucci wrote: >Would a heating pad cause RFI ? My wife has intermittent back problems and >when she uses her heating pad it seems I get spikes of RFI on my AM >reciever. That's distinctly possible. Almost any load on the powerline can create RFI (either radiated or conducted) if its load-switching circuits cause sudden current changes on the line. It's possible to build AC power-switching circuits which minimize current transients and thus minimize radiated EMI. If I recall correctly, good ones will switch on when the AC voltage crosses through zero, and switch off when the AC current passes through zero. Your wife's heating-pad controller or thermostat may very well have a cheaper switching circuit which pays no attention to the powerline phase. If so, it'd probably generate a short spike of noise whenever the heating current was turned on or off. You could try plugging the pad into a good AC power-line filter, and/or using a snap-on ferrite or two on its power cord (wrap the ferrites in soft flannel :-) -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! Article: 227921 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Jerry" References: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> Subject: Re: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. Message-ID: <4x9Dg.11730$Nx4.7060@bignews8.bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:45:15 -0400 "Dave" wrote in message news:5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com... > My setup is Hustler MO-2 with center loading coils and top stinger > [appropriate for each band]. > > For the sake of this discussion I'll refer to my 60 meter antenna. The > antenna is tuned to resonance at 5.3715 MHz using an MFJ-259B. Adding > approximately 4 inches [small spring for coil strain release] immediately > below the coil and at the top of the MO-2 has negligible effect on > resonance [a few KHz]. Now, varying the stinger above the loading coil by > 4 inches causes very large changes in resonant frequency of over 300 KHz. > > What's happening in the world of Antenna Physics to account for the change > in sensitivity as a function of position above or below the loading coil? > > Having asked the question, I'll slide back into the internet ether, wait > for sunspots to improve, and read the opinions and comments that follow. I don't know the "Q" of your particular antenna, but changing the whip length will definitely have an effect! The voltage portion of the antenna (bottom) won't make much difference, but the "current" (amperes of RF current) will make a difference because we "tune" to resonance to match *frequency*, and the coil and whip are what control that. Maybe I don't explain it very well, but, I am sure others will elaborate! :) 73 Jerry Article: 227922 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <7I6Dg.7770$FN2.6278@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:20:57 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:32:51 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >all he can do presently is pass the present day test requirements >and then be belittled For claiming that the tests prove that he knows as much as those who passed much more difficult tests, not for not having to pass those more difficult tests. Article: 227923 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155336873.334573.182430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:21:50 -0400 On 11 Aug 2006 15:54:33 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700, "an old friend" >> wrote: >> >the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and >> >passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" >> If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your >> mouth and proving it? >but I do uderstand the issue Then why do you keep pretending that you don't? > the real issue not the smoke screen you >are trying to blow (wether your own one you have been brainwashed into >accepting I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. Article: 227924 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:22:39 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:36:49 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> You still don't understand (or want to acknowledge) the difference >> between learning that Ohm was a scientist after whom the unit of >> resistance was named, and "the answer to the question with the 10k >> resistor is 'greater'". >Of course I understand. When I took my Conditional exam, >I didn't know Mr. Ohm from a hole in the ground. I simply >*MEMORIZED* that the ohm was the unit of resistance. I >had no idea how to know that except by *MEMORIZATION*. Showing that you DON'T know the difference. Don't you even understand what you post? Article: 227925 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:23:33 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:27:26 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >>> You denigrate the resistor code. >> Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the >> resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, >> the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. >Even with the resistor color code, most of us *MEMORIZED* >a jingle like: >Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly >I believe the military used to teach their technicians >to *MEMORIZE* that jingle. Exactly how does one develop >the resistor color code from first principles? One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this discussion - a fact you still don't understand. Article: 227926 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:24:10 -0400 On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:39:11 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: >> I learned the formulas ... >Did you *Heaven Forbid* memorize any formulas? I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first principles either. Article: 227927 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Ed Subject: extending mobile antenna length Date: 12 Aug 2006 01:02:27 GMT Message-ID: References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> What are the pro's and con's of lengenthing a mobile antenna? I have a travel trailer that I would like to operate from with a mobile vertical antenna off the back bumper. I standard 8' Huslter type mobile antenna would be poor with most if its length running parallel the back side of my aluminum framed trailer body. Would it be benefitial to add about 15 or so feet of mast to the antenna below the coil? Would an additional 15 feet of mast below the coil prevent me from tuning to resonance with the adjustable whip on top? If so, any suggestions as to materials to do so? PS: I'm only planning on operating 75M and maybe 40M. Ed K7AAT Article: 227928 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:51:28 -0700 Message-ID: <1155347488.895791.96000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> Al Klein wrote: > On 11 Aug 2006 15:54:33 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > >> On 11 Aug 2006 07:57:47 -0700, "an old friend" > >> wrote: > > >> >the issue is simple some folks want to claim other folks that took and > >> >passed the tests equire by by law are somehow "cheating" > > >> If you can't even understand the issue, why do you keep opening your > >> mouth and proving it? > > >but I do uderstand the issue > > Then why do you keep pretending that you don't? but I don't I do understand your public snit > > > the real issue not the smoke screen you > >are trying to blow (wether your own one you have been brainwashed into > >accepting > > I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. not likely nor did I say you were climing something othe r than you are claiming I am simply accusing not telling being honest about why you are making the claim your beef has nothing to do with the tests it is to do with end of the Hazing ritual that is a bout to occour you are just not honest to amdit (perhaps not even to yourself) you your concern is for the service the fact is that your problem is being hung up on the notion I did so you must Article: 227929 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 11 Aug 2006 18:53:27 -0700 Message-ID: <1155347607.687899.105100@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> Al Klein wrote: > On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:32:51 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >all he can do presently is pass the present day test requirements > >and then be belittled > > For claiming that the tests prove that he knows as much as those who > passed much more difficult tests, not for not having to pass those > more difficult tests. who has made any such claim? you like a lot of the procoders add a lot of things to what people are realy saying Article: 227930 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:16:22 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Showing that you DON'T know the difference. I personally don't care why the unit of resistance is named the ohm. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227931 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT Al Klein wrote: > One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this > discussion - a fact you still don't understand. There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop knowledge from first principles. You hate memorization so you must love first principles. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227932 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:19:22 GMT Al Klein wrote: > I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first > principles either. That fact goes against your "memorizing is evil" argument. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227933 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: ml Subject: Re:mu sheilding?? References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:32:19 GMT In article <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost>, Dominique Michel wrote: > Le Fri, 11 Aug 2006 02:57:00 GMT, > ml a écrit : > > > HI > > > > I was wondering in general, how best to create some VERY effective > > shielding between some equipment > > > > for example, I wanted to stack my powersupply ontop of a tuner > > > > while each are in metal enclousures and properly"" grounded i wanted > > to go further > > > > > > what is the best way?? would a thin sheet of lead (i'd encase in a > > rubber coating) or a sheet of copper? > > > > > > or would the only way be to say get some copper tape and wrap the unit? > > > > > > thanks > > You must first try to stack the supply on the top of the tuner and hear > what append. > > If it is HF EMC, Roy and Dan give you some advices for that. > > If it is 50 or 100Hz, only mu-metal will do something. With copper or > metal, you will only get Foucault's current in the shield, and those > currents will make a new EM field on the other side of the shield. > Successive metal shields can even be a very good mean to transport at > distance a low frequency magnetic field. So, only mu-metal will be > effective in that case. > > Dominique << Subject: Re: mu sheilding?? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:53:24 -0700 Message-ID: <12dqr6o9kmrln48@corp.supernews.com> References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> ml wrote: > << Subject: Re: heating pad References: <12dq8971njrv5cf@corp.supernews.com> Message-ID: <0rSdneTfV8pkF0DZnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@hawaiiantel.net> Yes, it sure can cause RFI, but it will generally be relatively short lived and periodic. If the thermostat in the pad is a simple bimetallic strip and doesn't have significant "snap action" the contacts will tend to have lesser contact as the temperature rises to the set point. This lighter contact can cause less than perfect electical contact between the contacts, creating RFI that is quite severe, until the contacts actually open. This can last several seconds, depending on the thermostat. A similar, but less significant problem can happen as the contacts close. I get a very similar high level RFI noise just before the water pump on the house I'm renting is about to switch in. The noise begins at a low level, then increases to maximum over about a half second, and continues for three to ten seconds, until the pump finally starts. Once the contacts make a good enough circuit to start the motor, the noise goes away. A similar noise happens with about a half second total time when the pump is about to stop. Changing the set point of the pump causes the time to vary some, and replacing the pressure switch worked for about six months before the noise returned. Happily, we should be moving into our new home in a couple of months, so can leave this pump behind. As already noted by another poster, filtering can help a fair bit, but may not totally eliminate the problem. On the other hand, if you are hearing longer term buzzing type of RFI particularly of a broadband nature, suspect any dimmer switches or "touch" lamps as the potential culprit... --Rick AH7H Dave Platt wrote: > In article , > Amerigo Vespucci wrote: > > >>Would a heating pad cause RFI ? My wife has intermittent back problems and >>when she uses her heating pad it seems I get spikes of RFI on my AM >>reciever. > > > That's distinctly possible. Almost any load on the powerline can > create RFI (either radiated or conducted) if its load-switching > circuits cause sudden current changes on the line. > > It's possible to build AC power-switching circuits which minimize > current transients and thus minimize radiated EMI. If I recall > correctly, good ones will switch on when the AC voltage crosses > through zero, and switch off when the AC current passes through zero. > > Your wife's heating-pad controller or thermostat may very well have a > cheaper switching circuit which pays no attention to the powerline > phase. If so, it'd probably generate a short spike of noise whenever > the heating current was turned on or off. > > You could try plugging the pad into a good AC power-line filter, > and/or using a snap-on ferrite or two on its power cord (wrap the > ferrites in soft flannel :-) > Article: 227936 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Subject: Re: heating pad From: Mike Monett References: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:27:04 -0400 "Amerigo Vespucci" wrote: > Would a heating pad cause RFI ? My wife has intermittent back problems > and when she uses her heating pad it seems I get spikes of RFI on my > AM reciever. I'm assuming it's that. I can't seem to track anything > else that may be causing it.Thanks in advance, > Will A snubber across the contacts should stop the RFI. Try a 0.01uF 600V cap in series with 47 ohms. If you don't have a suitable 600V cap in your junk box, look in a discarded PC power supply or monitor. The AC line input will have 250VAC caps for RFI filtering. Regards, Mike Monett Antiviral, Antibacterial Silver Solution: http://silversol.freewebpage.org/index.htm SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators: http://silversol.freewebpage.org/spice/xtal/clapp.htm Noise-Rejecting Wideband Sampler: http://www3.sympatico.ca/add.automation/sampler/intro.htm Article: 227937 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Reg Edwards" References: <1T6Ag.1806$kO3.783@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:45:36 +0100 Message-ID: Cecil, You have convinced me Corum's formula is in the right ball park. I have not found time to study how it has been derived. It doesn't appear to be particularly useful. I will now tell you how to obtain ALL resonant frequencies, both 1/4-wave and 1/2-wave as you call them. Place a single turn link winding around the CENTRE of the coil under test. Between the link winding and the MFJ-259B connect a loosely twisted pair (or a short length of speaker cable). The whole caboodle can be made from a single length of thin, insulated, stranded wire. I've a feeling that the length of the connection should not be too long. But the 259-B should not be very near to the coil to keep the meter outside the field of the coil. 6" or 10" seems about right depending on the size of the coil. Ideally, length should be much less than 1/4 wavelength at the test frequency. Begin at a low frequency and search for the first high impedance on the moving coil meter on the 259B. The first high impedance resonance corresponds to the self-resonant frequency of the coil. Increase frequency to find a low impedance resonance. Continue to find the next high impedance resonance, etc. The resonant frequencies may not be closely harmonically related. You may not find very close agreement with the results obtained by connecting the 259B directly across the coil. But both sets of results are equally valid (or invalid). I leave it to you to draw conclusions from the sequence of high-Z and low-Z resonant frequencies. Greatest accuracy is obtained by using the link coupling at the high impedance resonances because the coil is then more isolated from its environment. Its environment includes the input impedance of the 259-B itself. The lower the self-resonant frequency, the greater the accuracy. I found a coil in the junk box, 2.7" diameter, 4.0" long, 44 turns, which has a self-resonant frequency of 13.6 MHz. I would have liked it to be as low as 2 MHz. I agree, a coil at sufficiently high frequencies begins to behave something like a transmission line with a very low velocity factor. To investigate what is really happening requires an instrument capable of measuring impedance versus frequency from HF to VHF. It probably doesn't exist. When a coil is used to load a short HF vertical, it operates at a frequency much lower than its self-resonant frequency and transmission line effects don't matter two hoots. ----- Reg, G4FGQ. Article: 227938 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brenda Ann" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:05:40 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:KUaDg.4775$%j7.474@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... > Al Klein wrote: >> I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first >> principles either. > > That fact goes against your "memorizing is evil" argument. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. -- Say no to institutionalized interference. Just say NO to HD/IBOC! Article: 227939 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Lurch Subject: Re:'Paint-On' Antenna Test Flight Paves Way For Next-Generation High-Altitude Airships Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:20:16 -0000 Message-ID: <12drhs0pun6pr18@corp.supernews.com> References: Harbin Osteen wrote: > > Paint on antenna: > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060716090949.htm http://www.unishield.com/UWE200.pdf Says volume resistivity is "2800 milliohms/cm". Radio Shack Circuitwriter (640-4339) solder pen's resistance is given as "<0.02 ohm/sq/mil". Article: 227940 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155336873.334573.182430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155347488.895791.96000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:42:34 -0400 On 11 Aug 2006 18:51:28 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. >not likely Very juvenile of you. >your beef has nothing to do with the tests it is to do with end of the >Hazing ritual that is a bout to occour There's a hazing rule in ham radio? Since when? Article: 227941 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <26jrd2pug4448ng9i6p69924i5jcer21a3@4ax.com> References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:42:55 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:16:22 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> Showing that you DON'T know the difference. > >I personally don't care why the unit of resistance >is named the ohm. Which has nothing to do with the discussion. Article: 227942 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:43:37 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this >> discussion - a fact you still don't understand. > >There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop >knowledge from first principles. Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers and learning theory. Article: 227943 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <08jrd21bo324pp8a2rtgujh8u6d0693sbb@4ax.com> References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:44:00 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:19:22 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first >> principles either. > >That fact goes against your "memorizing is evil" argument. And against your claim to understand the conversation. Article: 227944 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:44:51 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:05:40 +0900, "Brenda Ann" wrote: >"Cecil Moore" wrote in message >news:KUaDg.4775$%j7.474@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> Al Klein wrote: >>> I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first >>> principles either. >> >> That fact goes against your "memorizing is evil" argument. >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > >There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing >specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and >can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and >teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. You must be at least 6 years old, Brenda Ann - Cecil can't seem to make that distinction. :) Article: 227945 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Steve Stone" References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would Ham Radio die? Message-ID: <_KkDg.7649$Oh1.1995@news01.roc.ny> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:31:38 GMT Ham radio is gonna be flushed big time if this is all you old farts are worried about. Article: 227946 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: extending mobile antenna length Message-ID: References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:40:04 -0400 On 12 Aug 2006 01:02:27 GMT, Ed wrote: > > > > What are the pro's and con's of lengenthing a mobile antenna? I have a >travel trailer that I would like to operate from with a mobile vertical >antenna off the back bumper. I standard 8' Huslter type mobile antenna >would be poor with most if its length running parallel the back side of my >aluminum framed trailer body. Would it be benefitial to add about 15 or >so feet of mast to the antenna below the coil? Would an additional 15 feet >of mast below the coil prevent me from tuning to resonance with the >adjustable whip on top? If so, any suggestions as to materials to do >so? > >PS: I'm only planning on operating 75M and maybe 40M. > > Ed K7AAT Ed, I am assuming you are operating from a fixed location as the height would exceed that of many bridges on the highway. Can you get to the roof of the motor home easily enough? If so, I would mount a bracket on the roof with a quick-disconnect on it. Then when you reach your location, you can just climb up and mount the antenna there fro the duration of your visit. Then when mobiling, move the antenna back to the bumper. I have operated a lot of mobile 80 and 40 meters. First of all, don't expect miracles, especially on 80 meters. The placement of either antenna on the center of the roof of my car has always been noticeably better than the bumper mount version. I now drive a van and the antenna is mounted on side of the van. Again, it is much better on the roof and tunes more easily there too. However, i cannot drive with it on my roof (I use Hamsticks). As for your specific question, I don't know the answer, but if you can find a piece of extension to test it with temporarily, such as a piece of copper pipe, you might get an answer at an inexpensive cost. Good luck, Buck n4pgw -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 227947 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Buck Subject: Re: mu sheilding?? Message-ID: References: <20060812010400.61fa4a39@localhost> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 09:42:29 -0400 ><<From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Mu-metal is a nickel-iron alloy (75% nickel, 15% iron, plus copper and molybdenum) that has a very high magnetic permeability. Permeability is represented by ?, the Greek letter mu. The high permeability makes mu-metal very effective at screening static or low-frequency magnetic fields, which cannot be attenuated by other methods.[1] Mu metal requires special heat treatment — annealing in hydrogen atmosphere, which reportedly increases the magnetic permeability about 40 times. The annealing alters the material's crystal structure, aligning the grains and removing some impurities, especially carbon. Mechanical treatment may disrupt the material's grain alignment, leading to drop of permeability in the affected areas, which can be restored by repeating of the hydrogen annealing step. -- 73 for now Buck N4PGW Article: 227948 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <1T6Ag.1806$kO3.783@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:30:34 GMT Reg Edwards wrote: > I agree, a coil at sufficiently high frequencies begins to behave > something like a transmission line with a very low velocity factor. Just below its self-resonant frequency, it behaves somewhat like a transmission line of less than 90 degrees. > To investigate what is really happening requires an instrument capable > of measuring impedance versus frequency from HF to VHF. It probably > doesn't exist. The low impedance part of the curve (below 650 ohms) can be had using an MFJ-259B. For my coil, which is self-resonant at 22.5 MHz, the impedance drops below 650 ohms at 27.8 MHz and never again goes higher than 650 ohms for increasing frequency. The bottom line is that the effectiveness of a coaxial coil choke falls off rapidly above its self resonant frequency. For my coil above, 27.8 MHz is only about 25% above the self- resonant frequency of 22.5 MHz. A coaxial choke works well at its self-resonant frequency but not much higher. > When a coil is used to load a short HF vertical, it operates at a > frequency much lower than its self-resonant frequency and transmission > line effects don't matter two hoots. But maybe one hoot. :-) My 75m bugcatcher coil is operated relatively close to its measured self-resonant frequency of 6.6 MHz. If I wound a bugcatcher coil to be self-resonant on 4 MHz and then used 2/3 of that coil for a loading coil on 4 MHz, its VF would not change and its electrical length would be 60 degrees accompanied by the appropriate 60 degree delay through the coil. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227949 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:41:33 GMT Brenda Ann wrote: > There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing > specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and > can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and > teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. That is just hair-splitting. For instance, the first question in my 2000 Extra Class License Manual is: What exclusive frequency privileges in the 80-meter band are authorized to Extra class control operators? Of the four choices, the correct answer is 3500-3525 kHz. Now what formula or method will yield the correct answer? I simply memorized that specific answer to that specific question. The moral is: "Work smarter, not harder!" -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227950 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> <26jrd2pug4448ng9i6p69924i5jcer21a3@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:45:35 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > >> Al Klein wrote: >>> Showing that you DON'T know the difference. >> I personally don't care why the unit of resistance >> is named the ohm. > > Which has nothing to do with the discussion. I do know the difference but the point is that I do not *need* to know the history behind that particular choice. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227951 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> Message-ID: <3ZlDg.9446$FN2.8581@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:54:55 GMT Al Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > >> Al Klein wrote: >>> One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this >>> discussion - a fact you still don't understand. >> There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop >> knowledge from first principles. > > Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers > and learning theory. If you are learning theory that someone has already developed, you *are* memorizing answers. I *memorized* Ohm's law for my Novice exam. I *memorized* the fact that 'I' is the letter used for current. If you are not memorizing answers provided by the people who developed the theory, then you are necessarily developing the theory from first principles. Avoiding memorizing answers to questions is a good way to keep making the same mistakes over and over. Do you avoid the Q&A sections of all web pages for fear that you might accidentally memorize an answer? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227952 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:56:51 -0400 Message-ID: <44ddec1b$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Brenda Ann" wrote in message news:ebk5fv$ml7$1@news2.kornet.net... > > > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:KUaDg.4775$%j7.474@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net... >> Al Klein wrote: >>> I'll bet he didn't derive the shapes of the written numbers from first >>> principles either. >> >> That fact goes against your "memorizing is evil" argument. >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing > specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, > and can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and > teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. > > -- > Say no to institutionalized interference. > Just say NO to HD/IBOC! > Which is exactly what "I" also have said. They're splitting hairs over the definition. MANY words can be used in more than one way. Your example is resembling mine. There are some things (many actually) you must "memorize" (learn) for life - to function. To simply "memorize" answers for a test - as you said, teaches NOTHING. It doens't even guarantee passing. I've seen a few fail by that method. IT simply is NOT a good way to go about things in life. Laziness gets you no where - fast. L. Article: 227953 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:01:51 GMT Al Klein wrote: > wrote: >> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing >> specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and >> can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and >> teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. > > You must be at least 6 years old, Brenda Ann - Cecil can't seem to > make that distinction. :) So exactly what is the "formula or method" for determining Extra frequency privileges outside of memorizing them? I was too lazy to use a formula so I just memorized only what I needed to know for my Extra exam. I still don't know all the Extra frequencies for all the bands. Since Extras have all frequency privileges, I don't really need to know where those frequencies are. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227954 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:03:00 -0400 Message-ID: <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:xMlDg.9444$FN2.8540@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > Brenda Ann wrote: >> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and >> memorizing specific answers to specific questions. The former is called >> learning, and can be applied to many situations. The latter is called >> laziness, and teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. > > That is just hair-splitting. For instance, the first question > in my 2000 Extra Class License Manual is: What exclusive > frequency privileges in the 80-meter band are authorized to > Extra class control operators? > > Of the four choices, the correct answer is 3500-3525 kHz. > > Now what formula or method will yield the correct answer? > I simply memorized that specific answer to that specific > question. The moral is: "Work smarter, not harder!" > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp In the example YOU give - Cecil - it could be taken either way. In the case of the "frequencies" you're to operate on for a given license and band - YES - you could simply "memorize" (not really commit to memory) those frequencies - for the exam purposes and just refer to a chart from there in. OR you COULD "memorize" them (actually committing to memory) for the purpose of NOT having to use a chart! However, once you use those frequencies after a while - especially if active - then you "would" tend to "memorize" (for life) those frequencies. Yes, it is definately splitting hairs! L. Article: 227955 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44ddec1b$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: <%dmDg.9451$FN2.1314@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:12:59 GMT L. wrote: > Laziness gets you no where - fast. Laziness allows one to achieve a goal by the most efficient route. Some famous German military leader said he would lots rather have brilliant and lazy officers than ambitious and stupid ones. I personally would rather see brilliant and lazy amateur radio operators than ambitious and stupid ones hanging on for dear life to an obsolete testing requirement. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227956 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:24 GMT L. wrote: > YES - you could simply "memorize" (not really commit to memory) Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: "memorize - to commit to memory". *Everything* that one memorizes is the act of committing something to memory. You definitely need to pick a different word than "memorize" to describe the concept you are trying to present. Memorizing is how human beings remember things and it is a good thing. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227957 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Message-ID: <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> References: <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:36:49 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:30:34 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Reg Edwards wrote: >> I agree, a coil at sufficiently high frequencies begins to behave >> something like a transmission line with a very low velocity factor. > >Just below its self-resonant frequency, it behaves somewhat >like a transmission line of less than 90 degrees. >snip >But maybe one hoot. :-) My 75m bugcatcher coil is operated >relatively close to its measured self-resonant frequency of >6.6 MHz. If I wound a bugcatcher coil to be self-resonant >on 4 MHz and then used 2/3 of that coil for a loading coil >on 4 MHz, its VF would not change and its electrical length >would be 60 degrees accompanied by the appropriate 60 degree >delay through the coil. Hi Cecil & Reg Sometime during the '70s I measured the self-resonant frequency of the 80m Hustler loading coil, 6MHz. The series resistance of that coil was 31 ohms at 4 MHz. That is why they claimed 'lower swr than with othe brands'. What a fraud. On the other hand, I also measured the Webster KW-80, self-resonant at 14.0 MHz, with a series resistance of 8 ohms at 4 MHz. I reported this on Page 6-12 in Reflections. So I ask you, Cecil, why would you want a bugcatcher self-resonant at 4 MHz for operation at 4.0 MHz, even if you used only 2/3 of it as a loading coil. Looking just to heat the coil instead of radiating the energy into space? Walt, W2DU Article: 227958 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <1154658861.371239.283890@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:54:24 GMT Walter Maxwell wrote: > So I ask you, Cecil, why would you want a bugcatcher self-resonant at 4 MHz for > operation at 4.0 MHz, even if you used only 2/3 of it as a loading coil. Looking > just to heat the coil instead of radiating the energy into space? Sorry I wasn't explicit, Walt. I use only 2/3 of the coil and chop the other 1/3 off and discard it. That ensures that the VF of the coil of 2/3 length is the same as the VF of the whole coil at the frequency of operation. The alternate approach would be to extend the windings on a 75m bugcatcher coil until self-resonance was reached at 4 MHz. The VF could then be calculated and the extra windings removed. The purpose of the two above exercises is to determine the VF of the coil *at the frequency of operation*. The VF of large real-world loading coils changes with frequency. Knowing the self-resonant frequency of a 75m bugcatcher coil is 6.6 MHz doesn't (necessarily) yield the correct VF at 4 MHz. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227959 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DDFC08.9E951283@shaw.ca> From: Irv Finkleman Subject: Re: heating pad References: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:04:22 GMT Amerigo Vespucci wrote: > > Would a heating pad cause RFI ? First things first -- unplug the pad and see if the RFI stops. QED! Irv VE6BP -- -------------------------------------- Visit my HomePage at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv/index.html Visit my Baby Sofia website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv4/index.htm Visit my OLDTIMERS website at http://members.shaw.ca/finkirv5/index.htm -------------------- Irv Finkleman, Grampa/Ex-Navy/Old Fart/Ham Radio VE6BP Calgary, Alberta, Canada Article: 227960 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: heating pad References: <44DDFC08.9E951283@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:13:01 GMT Irv Finkleman wrote: > Amerigo Vespucci wrote: >> Would a heating pad cause RFI ? > > First things first -- unplug the pad and see if the RFI stops. QED! Without the XYL knowing it? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227961 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "John" Subject: Receiving Loop Date: 12 Aug 2006 09:33:09 -0700 Message-ID: <1155400389.854352.27800@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Hello all, I am new to the group and have a question. Does anyone know a good source of information on small (less than .1wl), shielded (coax) magnetic loops? In particular, I would like to know design equations (are ON4UN's formulae correct and complete?). Why do most people use RG-59 rather than a thicker coax (shielding, C/ft?)? Why is 20' for 160 meters the norm? Discarding mechanical considerations, wouldn't thicker coax provide greater efficiency? I found ON4UN's book lacking on this antenna. Thanks in advance, John, N9RF Article: 227962 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 10:10:08 -0700 Message-ID: <1155402608.674317.299000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: Al Klein wrote: > On 11 Aug 2006 18:51:28 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > > >> I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. > > >not likely > > Very juvenile of you. exactly on point you can't even semem to make up your mind what you are claiming > > >your beef has nothing to do with the tests it is to do with end of the > >Hazing ritual that is a bout to occour > > There's a hazing rule in ham radio? Since when? sure there is it is called Morse Code testing Article: 227963 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 10:10:55 -0700 Message-ID: <1155402655.846630.24010@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> Al Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:16:22 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > >> Showing that you DON'T know the difference. > > > >I personally don't care why the unit of resistance > >is named the ohm. > > Which has nothing to do with the discussion. no it is part of the very core at some level all you can do a merorize Article: 227964 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 10:11:36 -0700 Message-ID: <1155402696.148105.304140@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> Al Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > >> One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this > >> discussion - a fact you still don't understand. > > > >There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop > >knowledge from first principles. > > Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers > and learning theory. sure it does it is the very core of it Article: 227965 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bill Turner Subject: Re: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 10:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: References: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> ORIGINAL MESSAGE: On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:05:58 -0400, Dave wrote: >What's happening in the world of Antenna Physics to account for the change in >sensitivity as a function of position above or below the loading coil? ------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------ That behavior is perfectly normal. Length above the coil has far more effect than length below the coil. Mobile operators have observed that effect forever. Perhaps someone else can explain the physics involved? Bill, W6WRT Article: 227966 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 13:51:30 -0400 Message-ID: <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:UlmDg.9457$FN2.1600@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > L. wrote: >> YES - you could simply "memorize" (not really commit to memory) > > Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: > "memorize - to commit to memory". *Everything* that one > memorizes is the act of committing something to memory. You > definitely need to pick a different word than "memorize" > to describe the concept you are trying to present. Memorizing > is how human beings remember things and it is a good thing. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Eh, excuse me, it was not "I" who started splitting hairs here with regard to MEMORY AND MEMORIZATION. "I" KNOW what "memorization" means - I was using it in the "SLANG" sense that YOU all are arguing about - memorizing something for just a few moments of need as opposed to a "lifetime". There ARE "SLANG" uses for popular words which do NOT coincide necessarily with Webster. Again, it was not "I" who started this ridiculous argument. AND for what it is worth - if you're (whoever this applies to) that freaking lazy to not want to have to "learn" something - then it is no damned wonder this country is going to hell. The downfall of our Education system begins with that very principle (refusal to learn). I don't give a crap WHAT Hitler or some other idiot said about being lazy and smart - if you're lazy - you are no damned good to society or yourself for that matter. The REST of us who have to pick up the pace to deal with the slackers. I'll be damned if I ever hire a "LAZY" smart person. I want a person who is going to EARN their keep. Sitting there telling me how things should be isn't what I would hire them for - the purpose is to DO the things as they're supposed to be done. Working smarter - not harder - is a good concept - but I DO NOT THINK - the originator of it meant for LAZY asses to be using it as an EXCUSE to not have to learn. I live by that concept (work smarter - not harder) often but it sure in hell hasn't stopped me from having to - OR DESIRING to LEARN. Lou Article: 227967 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 10:58:17 -0700 Message-ID: <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: L. wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:UlmDg.9457$FN2.1600@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... > > L. wrote: > >> YES - you could simply "memorize" (not really commit to memory) > > > > Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: > > "memorize - to commit to memory". *Everything* that one > > memorizes is the act of committing something to memory. You > > definitely need to pick a different word than "memorize" > > to describe the concept you are trying to present. Memorizing > > is how human beings remember things and it is a good thing. > > -- > > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > Eh, excuse me, it was not "I" who started splitting hairs here with regard > to MEMORY AND MEMORIZATION. > "I" KNOW what "memorization" means - I was using it in the "SLANG" sense > that YOU all are arguing about - memorizing something for just a few moments > of need as opposed to a "lifetime". There ARE "SLANG" uses for popular words > which do NOT coincide necessarily with Webster. Again, it was not "I" who > started this ridiculous argument. but you choose to step into themiddle of of your own free will > > AND for what it is worth - if you're (whoever this applies to) that freaking > lazy to not want to have to "learn" something - then it is no damned wonder > this country is going to hell. The downfall of our Education system begins > with that very principle (refusal to learn). I don't give a crap WHAT Hitler > or some other idiot said about being lazy and smart - if you're lazy - you > are no damned good to society or yourself for that matter. The REST of us > who have to pick up the pace to deal with the slackers. I'll be damned if I > ever hire a "LAZY" smart person. I want a person who is going to EARN their > keep. Sitting there telling me how things should be isn't what I would hire > them for - the purpose is to DO the things as they're supposed to be done. > > Working smarter - not harder - is a good concept - but I DO NOT THINK - the > originator of it meant for LAZY asses to be using it as an EXCUSE to not > have to learn. I live by that concept (work smarter - not harder) often but > it sure in hell hasn't stopped me from having to - OR DESIRING to LEARN. and nobody but your side has suggested it does but there still ramins no need for me to ever know the differentce between a collpitts and hartely occilator. If I should need that knowledge It sits in the trdh shelf down bout the middle in nice bright red book I used in college where it describes the difference in detail "so that the reader my find older reference book usefull" or words to that effect as I recell and occionaly I do take it off the shelf and refer to it to exactly that materail > > Lou Article: 227968 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. References: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:24:18 GMT Bill Turner wrote: > Dave wrote: >> What's happening in the world of Antenna Physics to account for the change in >> sensitivity as a function of position above or below the loading coil? > > That behavior is perfectly normal. Length above the coil has far more > effect than length below the coil. Mobile operators have observed that > effect forever. Perhaps someone else can explain the physics involved? A loading coil on an electrical 1/4WL mobile antenna can be conceptually understood as an electrical 1/4WL stub. Consider the following two electrical 1/4WL stubs. Source-----Z01------+-------Z02----------open (example 1) Source----Z02----+----Z01----+----Z02----open (example 2) Assume Z01 = 4000 ohms, VF1 = 0.02; Z02 = 600 ohms, VF2 = 1.0 Although somewhat counterintuitive, the length of the piece of Z01 line in the second example needs to be longer than the piece of Z01 line in the first example to achieve an electrical 1/4WL stub. Laying it out on a Smith Chart will uncover the reasons. In fact, if we create an electrical 1/4WL stub like this: Source-----Z02-----+-----Z01-----open (example 3) the sum of the electrical lengths of the two sections will be electrically *longer than 1/4WL*. This is equivalent to putting the loading coil at the very top of a mobile antenna with no stinger. Degrees of antenna are gained at a Z01-->Z02 discontinuity, i.e. at the loading coil to stinger transition point in example 1 above. Degrees of antenna are lost at a Z02-->Z01 discontinuity, i.e. at the base element to loading coil transition point in example 2 above. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227969 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Message-ID: References: <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:26:19 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:54:24 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Walter Maxwell wrote: >> So I ask you, Cecil, why would you want a bugcatcher self-resonant at 4 MHz for >> operation at 4.0 MHz, even if you used only 2/3 of it as a loading coil. Looking >> just to heat the coil instead of radiating the energy into space? > >Sorry I wasn't explicit, Walt. I use only 2/3 of the coil and >chop the other 1/3 off and discard it. That ensures that the >VF of the coil of 2/3 length is the same as the VF of the >whole coil at the frequency of operation. > >The alternate approach would be to extend the windings on a >75m bugcatcher coil until self-resonance was reached at 4 MHz. >The VF could then be calculated and the extra windings >removed. > >The purpose of the two above exercises is to determine the >VF of the coil *at the frequency of operation*. The VF of >large real-world loading coils changes with frequency. Knowing >the self-resonant frequency of a 75m bugcatcher coil is >6.6 MHz doesn't (necessarily) yield the correct VF at 4 MHz. But Cecil, I thought this thread was about chokes to prevent common-mode currents from flowing on the feed line. Now yer talking about loading coils for mobile whip antennas. As I understand the issue, one is 180° from the other. For the choke you want a high resistance, which is what you get at the self-resonant frequency. But for the loading coil you want the lowest series resistance possible, which you don't get when anywhere near the self-resonant frequency. Like I said above, the Hustler 80m loading coil achieved 'low swr' by making the coil self resonant slightly above 4 MHz, with a series resistance of 31 ohms. Now you are suggesting a bugcatcher coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz, which means yer coil is going to give you a nice low swr, but yer losing half of yer power in the coil because of the high series resistance you can't avoid. Yer also losing yer mind. Walt Article: 227970 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:33:16 GMT L. wrote: > "I" KNOW what "memorization" means - I was using it in the "SLANG" sense > that YOU all are arguing about - memorizing something for just a few moments > of need as opposed to a "lifetime". There ARE "SLANG" uses for popular words > which do NOT coincide necessarily with Webster. Sorry, my unabridged dictionary doesn't acknowledge a slang definition for "memorize" as it certainly does for other words used as slang. You really need to find another word to use to define your concept. You seem to be talking about temporary storage, the exact opposite of memorizing. > Working smarter - not harder - is a good concept - but I DO NOT THINK ... :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227971 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:37:57 GMT an old friend wrote: > and occionaly I do take it off the shelf and refer to it to exactly > that materail A brilliant lazy person knows that having the answer within arm's reach is just as effective as knowing the answer and probably much more efficient. At this very moment, I have about 60 reference books within arm's reach. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227972 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <4_FAg.4435$uo6.84@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:06 GMT Walter Maxwell wrote: > But Cecil, I thought this thread was about chokes to prevent common-mode > currents from flowing on the feed line. > > Now yer talking about loading coils for mobile whip antennas. Yes, carrying the subject over from an earlier thread on loading coils. There is a master's thesis paper authored by the Corum brothers, K1AON and KB1EUD, and sponsored by the IEEE at: http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf which deals with RF coils. Although aimed at Tesla coils, it contains lots of useful information for hams. In particular, it predicts the VF for large real-world coils which is very useful for me. It essentially shoots down the argument that the current through a real-world loading coil is the same at both ends of the coil, i.e. the delay through the coil approaches zero as presented by the lumped circuit model. > As I understand > the issue, one is 180° from the other. For the choke you want a high resistance, > which is what you get at the self-resonant frequency. But for the loading coil > you want the lowest series resistance possible, which you don't get when > anywhere near the self-resonant frequency. My point is that the same laws of physics apply to loading coils and coaxial coil chokes even if the applications are different. And we do, quite often, operate our 75m loading coils fairly near their self-resonant frequencies - like your Hustler example. > Like I said above, the Hustler 80m loading coil achieved 'low swr' by making the > coil self resonant slightly above 4 MHz, with a series resistance of 31 ohms. > Now you are suggesting a bugcatcher coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz, which means > yer coil is going to give you a nice low swr, but yer losing half of yer power > in the coil because of the high series resistance you can't avoid. Yer also > losing yer mind. Well, that is the measured self-resonant frequency of my often glorified 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil supposed to be one of the highest-Q coils available. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 227973 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Message-ID: References: <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:14:10 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Walter Maxwell wrote: >> But Cecil, I thought this thread was about chokes to prevent common-mode >> currents from flowing on the feed line. >> >> Now yer talking about loading coils for mobile whip antennas. > >Yes, carrying the subject over from an earlier thread on loading >coils. There is a master's thesis paper authored by the Corum >brothers, K1AON and KB1EUD, and sponsored by the IEEE at: > >http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf > >which deals with RF coils. Although aimed at Tesla coils, it >contains lots of useful information for hams. In particular, >it predicts the VF for large real-world coils which is very >useful for me. It essentially shoots down the argument that >the current through a real-world loading coil is the same >at both ends of the coil, i.e. the delay through the coil >approaches zero as presented by the lumped circuit model. > >> As I understand >> the issue, one is 180° from the other. For the choke you want a high resistance, >> which is what you get at the self-resonant frequency. But for the loading coil >> you want the lowest series resistance possible, which you don't get when >> anywhere near the self-resonant frequency. > >My point is that the same laws of physics apply to loading coils >and coaxial coil chokes even if the applications are different. >And we do, quite often, operate our 75m loading coils fairly >near their self-resonant frequencies - like your Hustler example. > >> Like I said above, the Hustler 80m loading coil achieved 'low swr' by making the >> coil self resonant slightly above 4 MHz, with a series resistance of 31 ohms. >> Now you are suggesting a bugcatcher coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz, which means >> yer coil is going to give you a nice low swr, but yer losing half of yer power >> in the coil because of the high series resistance you can't avoid. Yer also >> losing yer mind. > >Well, that is the measured self-resonant frequency of my often >glorified 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil supposed to be one of the >highest-Q coils available. Yeah, but Cecil, have you ever actually MEASURED the series resistance? The slope of the resonance curve that peaks at 6.6MHz ain't gonna be low enough at 4.0. MHz to make an efficient mobile antenna. The Hustler coils, with 31 ohms series resistance was a hoax on the average ham who didn't know the real reason the Hustler gave them a low swr, which is what they mistakenly thought was paradise. When it comes to efficiency in an antenna with a loading coil, the best efficiency comes with the highest swr in absence of any attempt to match the terminal impedance to 50 ohms. IMO, Cecil, you've been hoaxed if you thought a coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz was a high-Q coil at 4 MHz. Walt Article: 227974 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Message-ID: <4basd2p34f49i1ijlgjricpd44fmtqg1nb@4ax.com> References: <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:20:50 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:14:10 -0400, Walter Maxwell wrote: >On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:53:06 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: > >>Walter Maxwell wrote: > >IMO, Cecil, you've been hoaxed if you thought a coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz >was a high-Q coil at 4 MHz. > >Walt What I mean't to say, Cecil, is that you've been hoaxed if you thought a coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz intended for use at 4.0 MHz was a high-Q coil. Walt Article: 227975 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:22:15 -0400 Message-ID: <44de2a50$0$6585$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:M9pDg.7811$kO3.5148@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > L. wrote: >> "I" KNOW what "memorization" means - I was using it in the "SLANG" sense >> that YOU all are arguing about - memorizing something for just a few >> moments of need as opposed to a "lifetime". There ARE "SLANG" uses for >> popular words which do NOT coincide necessarily with Webster. > > Sorry, my unabridged dictionary doesn't acknowledge a slang > definition for "memorize" as it certainly does for other > words used as slang. You really need to find another word > to use to define your concept. You seem to be talking about > temporary storage, the exact opposite of memorizing. > >> Working smarter - not harder - is a good concept - but I DO NOT THINK ... > > :-) > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Now you're trying to be a smart "ass" (there's some slang for ya) :) . Again, it was not "MY" argument here - splitting hairs. AND as for thinking, I think you ought to go back a couple days or better and reread the threads. Unlike some in this ridiculous argument, I DO think.. I THINK IT IS CRAZY. Don't you all have something better to do? I don't care what "YOUR" dictionary shows. There are some out there for example which show the word COCK for example - as a type of Bird OR the preparing of a rifle or gun for firing and leave it at that - while a "few" others will show the "Slang" term used - as many do - meaning sexual organ. SO - ALL DICTIONARYS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. What may not show up in YOUR dictionary as slang - may certainly - in others. AND perhaps it was a "misuse" of the word "Memorize" - I was merely trying to rationalize where you AND AL Klein both were coming from. Now, neither one of you make any sense - he argues against memory and you against having to do any work. MANY people "misuse" words - very much and very badly. MY (mis)use was ONLY intended for the sake of this STUPID argument. Lou Article: 227976 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "LenAnderson@ieee.org" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would Ham Radio die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 12:49:52 -0700 Message-ID: <1155412192.574567.251920@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: From: Steve Stone on Sat, Aug 12 2006 6:31 am Groups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna, rec.radio.amateur.policy, rec.radio.scanner, rec.radio.swap >Ham radio is gonna be flushed big time if this is all you old farts are >worried about. Steve, you may be quite right! There is NO expression from these federally-authorized morsemen of amateur radio being a HOBBY. [it is a "service" to the country or something para-military...and "hobby" is not in the Rules (except by definition)] Indeed, they bristle and come unglued at the slightest negativism of their mighty endeavors of "professional amateurism" with all its rank, status, and glory. Ham radio can't be just "fun" for its own sake, an enjoyable pastime, something done for personal pleasure. No, one has to enjoy ONLY Their views, like what they like, or suffer the consequences of being considered "lower caste" on par with river-bottom slime. These mighty macho morsemen demand OBEDIANCE to their views and opinions, are quick to call disbelievers any name they choose, always denigrative, condescending, with heavy overtones of attempted humiliation. They are the unforgiving in regards to anyone NOT worshiping their status, rank, titles in amateurism. Unforgiving to the point of attacking ANYONE against them. They RULE. [they think...but only in here...] While these mighty macho morsemen take out their frustrations, resentments, anger against all not idolizing their opinions, there are some actual amateur radio issues which need addressing. The removal or continuation of the morse code test for US amateur radio license testing is still in limbo; official Comment period on the NPRM was over late last year. Access BPL recently had a rules revision/addendum added by the FCC with a Report and Order released on 7 August 2006. No one in here apparently cares about it since the "ARRL is on the job," "fighting" to keep HF "safe" (for their membership?). [ho, ho, some "fight"...] No one cares to discuss two BIG issues. Everyone is busy, busy, trying to insult anyone who doesn't subscribe to Their views. Ain't no "discussion" here, hasn't been for years. Internecine personal warfare is the order of the day. Everyone in here either obeys the rulings of Big Brother in Newington or they are considered lower forms of (barely) life. The number of US amateur radio licensees is slowly dropping (expirations greater than new licensees to the tune of 10K in three years). Membership in the ARRL (the "representative" of all, according to them) has never been more than a quarter of all US licensees. Technician class licensees are very very close to being a full half of all classes (49.07% of all individual licensees as of 12 Aug 06). Lettuce all bow our heads and worship morsemanship...these are the salad days of the brass-pounders. Morse is the answer to everything I'm told. [over and over again] :-) Beep, beep... LenAnderson@ieee.org Article: 227977 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Bill Turner Subject: Re: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 12:51:58 -0700 Message-ID: References: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> ORIGINAL MESSAGE: >> That behavior is perfectly normal. Length above the coil has far more >> effect than length below the coil. Mobile operators have observed that >> effect forever. Perhaps someone else can explain the physics involved? > >A loading coil on an electrical 1/4WL mobile antenna can be >conceptually understood as an electrical 1/4WL stub. Consider >the following two electrical 1/4WL stubs. > >Source-----Z01------+-------Z02----------open (example 1) > >Source----Z02----+----Z01----+----Z02----open (example 2) > >Assume Z01 = 4000 ohms, VF1 = 0.02; Z02 = 600 ohms, VF2 = 1.0 > >Although somewhat counterintuitive, the length of the piece >of Z01 line in the second example needs to be longer than >the piece of Z01 line in the first example to achieve an >electrical 1/4WL stub. Laying it out on a Smith Chart will >uncover the reasons. > >In fact, if we create an electrical 1/4WL stub like this: > >Source-----Z02-----+-----Z01-----open (example 3) > >the sum of the electrical lengths of the two sections will be >electrically *longer than 1/4WL*. This is equivalent to putting >the loading coil at the very top of a mobile antenna with no >stinger. > >Degrees of antenna are gained at a Z01-->Z02 discontinuity, >i.e. at the loading coil to stinger transition point in >example 1 above. > >Degrees of antenna are lost at a Z02-->Z01 discontinuity, >i.e. at the base element to loading coil transition point >in example 2 above. ------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------ You restated what I said in much more detail, but what you have done is expounded on the "what". I still don't know the "how" or the "why". Bill, W6WRT Article: 227978 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 16:10:15 -0400 Message-ID: <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com... > an old friend wrote: >> and occionaly I do take it off the shelf and refer to it to exactly >> that materail > > A brilliant lazy person knows that having the answer > within arm's reach is just as effective as knowing the > answer and probably much more efficient. At this very > moment, I have about 60 reference books within arm's > reach. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp For a short time, you had my attention as being correct at least part of the time - in this ongoing dumb argument. But here's where we part ways - "along with the "memory" deal - which "I" didn't start. A "brilliant" "lazy" person - isn't worth a dime. Brilliant ? BY WHO's DEFINITION? I have a ton of books in my reach too - so whats your point? Yes, SOME are "reference" books - but many I spent hours in "STUDYING". It is the "reference" books I use for things not used daily or even at times month to month. Books on hobbies I have but not enough time to get into as much - or repair manuals for my test equipment - should I need to do so. Having a ton of books at arms length doesn't substitute for KNOWLEDGE OR WORK. Those "books" sure in hell aren't going to "troubleshoot" equipment for me to earn my pay. They're not going to diagnose my body to heal me. They're not going to fix my vehicle "just" by having them at arms length. They may make you LOOK smart! They won't "make" you a Ham operator, Nuclear Physicist, Doctor, Lawyer, Mechanic, etc. SO what - you can pull (legal/physics/etc) laws out or Meds and dosages, spark plug clearances and so on - BIG DEAL. anyone with half a brain can do that. Even those who busted their ass to get to the top have to keep "working" at it to STAY at the top. Even today, Bill Gates - smart as he is, I'm sure is still working on "something". I'm sure he doesn't sit there with his ton of "reference" books at arms length - and do NOTHING. And I'm DAMNED sure - he had to study long and hard to learn all he knows to get to where he is today. I will bet my last dime he would tell you himself - it wasn't easy. It took LOTS of hard work, dedication, studying, committment, TRIAL AND ERROR - to make things work. TRIAL AND ERROR doesn't get done sitting on your ass. NOTHING worth while - does. UNLESS of course that so called "brilliant" "lazy" person is collecting a welfare check - smart yes - but not enough to be gainfully employed. Ya know - I have knowledge of a man who can recite transistor theory and much much more - formulas and all from his head. BUT - the poor bastard can't even solder. He has NO clue on how to troubleshoot or repair. So, tell me - what good is it to JUST be "brilliant"? AND AGAIN - BY WHO'S STANDARDS? Hell, I've known supposedly slow and/or "mentally retarded" people that put so called "knowledgeable" people to shame. They talked with more sense, didn't assume they knew everything and sure in hell weren't afraid to TRY to work. Those who "CLAIM" to know everything - usually aren't worth a plugged nickle. We ALL have something to "learn" each and every day of our lives. Anyone who thinks otherwise or that they know it all - are DEAD already. They won't get anywhere in life. "I" for one will NEVER EVER claim I know "everything". I LOVE to learn new things and look forward to each new adventure - be it repairing something - tackling a new problem never seen before to learning things to do with my "other" activities that take up many hours of my life. In THOSE fields - "knowing it all" can get you KILLED. Sorry dude - I jumped track from agreeing with you............ Pick it apart all you want. LAZY DOES NOT WORK - no matter which way you cut it. I'm leaning in the direction that you've apparently bought one of those GET RICH QUICK WITHOUT WORKING books............ SORRY DUDE - THEY DON"T WORK. L. And as for "Hitler" claiming that - as you said about his admiration for a brilliant lazy man - eh......... last I heard - the man was a fruit cake, lost the war, cost thousands of lives, innocent ones at that - and ended up committing suicide - WHAT A LOSER. And I would want to follow his examples/principles - why? Article: 227979 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "K7ITM" Subject: Re: Receiving Loop Date: 12 Aug 2006 14:59:50 -0700 Message-ID: <1155419990.425085.88770@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1155400389.854352.27800@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> You can find quite a bit of discussion about small loops if you search the archives of this group. That, however, may confuse you because some folk seem intent on making absolute statements about things they don't really understand. Reputable books will tell you that the "shield" is actually the antenna, and to gain the advantage of rejection of local predominantly e-field noise, you must make the loop very symmetrical. I know that Jasick's Antenna Engineering book has a good chapter on loops, and King, Mimno and Wing's "Transmission Lines, Antennas and Waveguides" has a good qualitative discussion of them. There are various programs out there to help you determine the performance of small receiving loops. I've found one on Reg Edwards' web page to be useful. Cheers, Tom John wrote: > Hello all, > > I am new to the group and have a question. > > Does anyone know a good source of information on small (less than > .1wl), shielded (coax) magnetic loops? In particular, I would like to > know design equations (are ON4UN's formulae correct and complete?). Why > do most people use RG-59 rather than a thicker coax (shielding, C/ft?)? > Why is 20' for 160 meters the norm? Discarding mechanical > considerations, wouldn't thicker coax provide greater efficiency? > > I found ON4UN's book lacking on this antenna. > > Thanks in advance, > John, N9RF Article: 227980 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> <26jrd2pug4448ng9i6p69924i5jcer21a3@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:02:40 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:45:35 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> Cecil Moore wrote: >> >>> Al Klein wrote: >>>> Showing that you DON'T know the difference. > >>> I personally don't care why the unit of resistance >>> is named the ohm. >> >> Which has nothing to do with the discussion. > >I do know the difference but the point is that I do not >*need* to know the history behind that particular choice. Nor does knowing the history or whether you know the history have anything to do with it. Article: 227981 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <90ksd29a82a6ui32fpl1sshph1f9vld103@4ax.com> References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <8ospd2lfvgmbtpd1s6b0orl41qjudi5du5@4ax.com> <26jrd2pug4448ng9i6p69924i5jcer21a3@4ax.com> <1155402655.846630.24010@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:03:15 -0400 On 12 Aug 2006 10:10:55 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >at some level all you can do a merorize The discussion isn't about WHETHER you memorize, it's about WHAT you memorize. Article: 227982 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> <3ZlDg.9446$FN2.8581@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:07:22 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:54:55 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore >> wrote: >> >>> Al Klein wrote: >>>> One doesn't, but "first principles" has nothing to do with this >>>> discussion - a fact you still don't understand. >>> There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop >>> knowledge from first principles. >> >> Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers >> and learning theory. > >If you are learning theory that someone has already developed, >you *are* memorizing answers. Showing that you don't know the difference between the two. > I *memorized* Ohm's law for my >Novice exam. I *memorized* the fact that 'I' is the letter >used for current. Those weren't the answers, they were the facts that allowed you to figure out the answers. >If you are not memorizing answers provided by the people who >developed the theory, then you are necessarily developing the >theory from first principles. The people who developed the theory in the 19th century didn't "develop" the answers to tests created in the 20th century. >Avoiding memorizing answers to questions is a good way to >keep making the same mistakes over and over. Then you must be an expert in avoidance, since you keep making the same mistake post after post. Memorizing theory is NOT the same as memorizing test answers. If information and test answers were the same, owning a book with the information needed to answer the questions on any test given in any public school would probably be illegal in all 50 states. Article: 227983 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <09ksd2d8kdt36t61dsk27espsee0e6i2o3@4ax.com> References: <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> <1155402696.148105.304140@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:09:02 -0400 On 12 Aug 2006 10:11:36 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore >> wrote: >> >There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop >> >knowledge from first principles. >> Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers >> and learning theory. >sure it does >it is the very core of it Why don't you stay out of discussions you don't understand? We know you're a fool, why keep proving it? Read Samuel Clemens, at least. Article: 227984 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <6cksd25bmlgrgii3q4g2goan6k4r9rk0j2@4ax.com> References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:09:47 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:01:51 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> wrote: >>> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing >>> specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and >>> can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and >>> teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. >> >> You must be at least 6 years old, Brenda Ann - Cecil can't seem to >> make that distinction. :) > >So exactly what is the "formula or method" for determining Extra >frequency privileges outside of memorizing them? Since frequency assignments aren't theory, your question is both irrelevant and incompetent. Article: 227985 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:11:40 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:41:33 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Brenda Ann wrote: >> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing >> specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and >> can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and >> teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. > >That is just hair-splitting. The same hair splitting as the difference between stealing money and earning it - they're both methods of obtaining it. But, since you don't know the difference between "learning" and "memorizing", nor which subjects fall into which category, you probably can't see the parallel. Article: 227986 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:13:44 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:21:24 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: "The absolutely worst source of the definition of a technical term is a non-technical dictionary. If it doesn't get it completely wrong, the definition doesn't apply to the technical usage, so it's useless, except for the incompetent to think they've proved a point." From dingiswayo324_at_yahoo.com Sun Aug 13 04:33:52 EDT 2006 Article: 227987 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 17:16:46 -0500 From: "scrook" Newsgroups: rec.radio.amateur.antenna References: Subject: Re: nmo antenna mount repair Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:16:51 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response Message-ID: Lines: 35 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.218.117 X-Trace: sv3-kEhQP9sTayXoxdEODTYpYfehace0s66nIgI2MX8uN2oyQdAgl/jKNOWBk+RgUosYDF5rtfKVPCS1I/e!IcBl2Z6KtPR1nf196yOQPgKByUYXlYyVwjsS1i/Wjxl54fusYuJnmTHuloLqYbArLCyPD1Xfg4gU!m5PHY7VUYITq X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: dmca@comcast.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.32 Path: news.unc.edu!elk.ncren.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local02.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.comcast.com!news.comcast.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: news0.isis.unc.edu rec.radio.amateur.antenna:227987 www.tessco.com, www.rfwiz.com or a local mobile radio installer or ham redio store should have'm; A/S, Antennex, Larson, PCTel... You might even remount the NMO w/ a cable and screw a cap on it (again same sources), and drill a new hole. "danielle" wrote in message news:ebb4gs$hrk$1@news04.infoave.net... > OK FB thank you!!!!!!! > Dan AI8O > "Ed" wrote in message > news:Xns9818D5AF8DE87spectrumhogstarbandn@198.186.192.196... >> >> >>> >>> >>> Does anyone know where I can get a rubber hole plug made to fit in the >>> NMO mount hole? >>> >> >> >> During my career, I generally used Antenna Specialists rubber hole >> plugs, Part No. ASP K35 for your application. I'd recommend just >> plugging the hole and drilling a new one... not too close to the old one. >> Also would recommend a little Silicone RTV on the hole plug before >> installing. Do a Google search on the part for vendors, or you could >> stop by a local commercial radio maintenance shop and ask if they would >> sell you one. >> >> >> Ed K7AAT > > Article: 227988 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:16:39 -0400 On 12 Aug 2006 10:58:17 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >but there still ramins no need for me to ever know the differentce >between a collpitts and hartely occilator. There's no *need* for you to even know that you can use a radio to talk to people. There's a need, if we want a ham license to say that the holder of said license has achieved a certain level of technical competence, to test for that competence. Otherwise all the license says is "I have this piece of paper with ink on it". Article: 227989 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:18:11 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:37:57 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >an old friend wrote: >> and occionaly I do take it off the shelf and refer to it to exactly >> that materail >A brilliant lazy person knows that having the answer >within arm's reach is just as effective as knowing the >answer and probably much more efficient. You conflated "stupid" with "brilliant". Any knowledgeable person knows that knowledge is valuable for its own sake. Article: 227990 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:20:35 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:33:16 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Sorry, my unabridged dictionary "Webster's Unabridged" is a trademark, not a claim. It's certainly abridged. Article: 227991 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: <42lsd2ddni97cu2bucrj73j36unefvptlg@4ax.com> References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44ddec1b$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <%dmDg.9451$FN2.1314@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:23:13 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:12:59 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >L. wrote: >> Laziness gets you no where - fast. >Laziness allows one to achieve a goal by the most efficient >route. Some famous German military leader said he would >lots rather have brilliant and lazy officers than ambitious >and stupid ones. As I recall, he was also known as one of the most idiotic strategists the species has ever produced. His "fame" didn't stop him from being the almost single-handed reason his country lost its big war, did it? > I personally would rather see brilliant >and lazy amateur radio operators than ambitious and stupid >ones hanging on for dear life to an obsolete testing >requirement. Being both intelligent and ambitious doesn't appear on your radar? Article: 227992 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Al Klein Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Message-ID: References: <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155336873.334573.182430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155347488.895791.96000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155402608.674317.299000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:24:46 -0400 On 12 Aug 2006 10:10:08 -0700, "an old friend" wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> On 11 Aug 2006 18:51:28 -0700, "an old friend" >> wrote: >> >> >Al Klein wrote: >> >> >> I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. >> >> >not likely >> >> Very juvenile of you. >exactly on point Your claim to know what I'm thinking better than I do? Only if your age is a single digit. >> >your beef has nothing to do with the tests it is to do with end of the >> >Hazing ritual that is a bout to occour >> There's a hazing rule in ham radio? Since when? >sure there is it is called Morse Code testing You don't win points by redefining words, you just make yourself look desperate. Article: 227993 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 15:39:24 -0700 Message-ID: <1155422364.819047.133680@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: Al Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:45:35 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >Al Klein wrote: > >> Cecil Moore wrote: > >> > >>> Al Klein wrote: > >>>> Showing that you DON'T know the difference. > > > >>> I personally don't care why the unit of resistance > >>> is named the ohm. > >> > >> Which has nothing to do with the discussion. > > > >I do know the difference but the point is that I do not > >*need* to know the history behind that particular choice. > > Nor does knowing the history or whether you know the history have > anything to do with it. it simply shows some things are best memorized is all Article: 227994 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 15:42:50 -0700 Message-ID: <1155422570.385867.308540@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: Al Klein wrote: > On 12 Aug 2006 10:10:55 -0700, "an old friend" > wrote: > > >at some level all you can do a merorize > > The discussion isn't about WHETHER you memorize, it's about WHAT you > memorize. that is a chnge in tune oncce you accpet that much of the testing involves memizztion the question then comes down to where is your beef? if it is that today we then to use multiguess questions pools verus short answer of bygone day you likely out of luck the extra cost is not going to be supported within the present system I agree short answer would be an improvement over multible guess but teks you issue up with other don't imply that the ams that have taken and passed the required tetst have not done what is required you tread awfully close to libel there AL ask an lawyer if you don't believe me Article: 227995 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 15:43:51 -0700 Message-ID: <1155422631.434982.49560@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> Al Klein wrote: > On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:41:33 GMT, Cecil Moore > wrote: > > >Brenda Ann wrote: > >> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing > >> specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and > >> can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and > >> teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. > > > >That is just hair-splitting. > > The same hair splitting as the difference between stealing money and > earning it - they're both methods of obtaining it. again you tread close to libel and flatout insaity > > But, since you don't know the difference between "learning" and > "memorizing", nor which subjects fall into which category, you > probably can't see the parallel. and again Article: 227996 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:10:00 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <4bbqd2pmudip3s3j0geqbookdclrvqrq0s@4ax.com> <1155402696.148105.304140@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <09ksd2d8kdt36t61dsk27espsee0e6i2o3@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:09:02 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On 12 Aug 2006 10:11:36 -0700, "an old friend" >wrote: > >>Al Klein wrote: >>> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:18:17 GMT, Cecil Moore >>> wrote: > >>> >There's two ways to learn: 1. Memorize knowledge, 2. develop >>> >knowledge from first principles. > >>> Which has nothing to do with the difference between memorizing answers >>> and learning theory. > >>sure it does >>it is the very core of it > >Why don't you stay out of discussions you don't understand? We know >you're a fool, why keep proving it? Read Samuel Clemens, at least. why don't you stay out of discussions that show so as aold fool not honest enough he blowing smoke you are arguing over a difference that does not exist certain not as a some sharp line http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227997 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:13:23 -0400 Message-ID: References: <44dc93be$0$6589$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155308267.270679.100020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155336873.334573.182430@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1155347488.895791.96000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155402608.674317.299000@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:24:46 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On 12 Aug 2006 10:10:08 -0700, "an old friend" >wrote: > >>Al Klein wrote: >>> On 11 Aug 2006 18:51:28 -0700, "an old friend" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >Al Klein wrote: >>> >>> >> I think I know what I'm claiming a little better than you do. >>> >>> >not likely >>> >>> Very juvenile of you. > >>exactly on point > >Your claim to know what I'm thinking better than I do? Only if your >age is a single digit. sure I know better you are not thinking at all you are reuitating some bile you reply "only if your age is a single is all but proof right there > >>> >your beef has nothing to do with the tests it is to do with end of the >>> >Hazing ritual that is a bout to occour > >>> There's a hazing rule in ham radio? Since when? > >>sure there is it is called Morse Code testing > >You don't win points by redefining words, you just make yourself look >desperate. no refining word HERE at any rate you are dancing around sutblies in the menaing of emorizing like mad and at the same tim e parrot thing that clearly define code testing as frat house game "having to earn it", there has never been a requirement to earn the license it has always been reconized that some not everyone puts the same effort into it as the rest http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227998 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:14:08 -0400 Message-ID: <65osd21lq4gps07j6atbcg9su4cfcq5sa7@4ax.com> References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <6cksd25bmlgrgii3q4g2goan6k4r9rk0j2@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:09:47 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:01:51 GMT, Cecil Moore >wrote: > >>Al Klein wrote: >>> wrote: >>>> There's a difference between memorizing a formula or method and memorizing >>>> specific answers to specific questions. The former is called learning, and >>>> can be applied to many situations. The latter is called laziness, and >>>> teaches nothing that can be used for any other purpose. >>> >>> You must be at least 6 years old, Brenda Ann - Cecil can't seem to >>> make that distinction. :) >> >>So exactly what is the "formula or method" for determining Extra >>frequency privileges outside of memorizing them? > >Since frequency assignments aren't theory, your question is both >irrelevant and incompetent. since feq assignment are large part of the test they go to the core of the matter http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 227999 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:14:59 -0400 Message-ID: References: <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:18:11 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:37:57 GMT, Cecil Moore >wrote: > >>an old friend wrote: > >>> and occionaly I do take it off the shelf and refer to it to exactly >>> that materail > >>A brilliant lazy person knows that having the answer >>within arm's reach is just as effective as knowing the >>answer and probably much more efficient. > >You conflated "stupid" with "brilliant". > >Any knowledgeable person knows that knowledge is valuable for its own >sake. and also knows that not all knowledge is equaly valuable http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228000 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:16:28 -0400 Message-ID: <48osd29t9np8c8srpreghml88aits2me93@4ax.com> References: <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:16:39 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On 12 Aug 2006 10:58:17 -0700, "an old friend" >wrote: > >>but there still ramins no need for me to ever know the differentce >>between a collpitts and hartely occilator. > >There's no *need* for you to even know that you can use a radio to >talk to people. there is if I want a license for it > >There's a need, if we want a ham license to say that the holder of >said license has achieved a certain level of technical competence, to >test for that competence. Otherwise all the license says is "I have >this piece of paper with ink on it". no it say I have legal license to do xyz with it that is all it has ever said, experhaps in the epriod where the general advanced and Extra class all had the same preveldges http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228001 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:17:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44ddec1b$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <%dmDg.9451$FN2.1314@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <42lsd2ddni97cu2bucrj73j36unefvptlg@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 18:23:13 -0400, Al Klein wrote: >On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:12:59 GMT, Cecil Moore >wrote: > >>L. wrote: >>> Laziness gets you no where - fast. > >>Laziness allows one to achieve a goal by the most efficient >>route. Some famous German military leader said he would >>lots rather have brilliant and lazy officers than ambitious >>and stupid ones. > >As I recall, he was also known as one of the most idiotic strategists >the species has ever produced. His "fame" didn't stop him from being >the almost single-handed reason his country lost its big war, did it? > >> I personally would rather see brilliant >>and lazy amateur radio operators than ambitious and stupid >>ones hanging on for dear life to an obsolete testing >>requirement. > >Being both intelligent and ambitious doesn't appear on your radar? but it is not a requirement of licensing after you have one http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228002 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes References: <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:32:09 GMT Walter Maxwell wrote: > IMO, Cecil, you've been hoaxed if you thought a coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz > was a high-Q coil at 4 MHz. All I know is that Texas Bugcatcher coils tend to be near the top of the the 75m mobile shootout results. Using base loading on a GMC pickup, it is resonant on 3.8 MHz with a six foot stinger. Remove the stinger and it is self-resonant at 6.6 MHz. My 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil was a gift from K7JEB. It is 26.5 turns at 4 tpi on a 6" air core form. Calculates out to be about 70 uH. I don't know how to make it higher Q. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228003 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de2a50$0$6585$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:38:16 GMT L. wrote: > I don't care what "YOUR" > dictionary shows. There are some out there for example which show the word > COCK for example - as a type of Bird OR the preparing of a rifle or gun for > firing and leave it at that - while a "few" others will show the "Slang" > term used - as many do - meaning sexual organ. SO - ALL DICTIONARYS ARE NOT > CREATED EQUAL. From my dictionary: "cock - 5. Slang (vulgar) a. penis. b. sexual relations with a man." Seems my 2230 page unabridged dictionary covers slang very well but does not have a slang definition for "memorize". Please try again. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228004 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: Frequency Sensitivity of mobile HF vertical antennas. References: <5YmdnXbPd7P7hkDZnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:41:07 GMT Bill Turner wrote: > You restated what I said in much more detail, but what you have done > is expounded on the "what". I still don't know the "how" or the "why". The Smith Chart yields the "how". Please take the "why" up with The Creator. :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228005 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:51:28 GMT L. wrote: > I have a ton of books in my reach too - so whats your point? If you are ambitious enough to already possess the knowledge, you don't need the books. I am too lazy to try to possess all knowledge so I need the books. Not having to memorize all knowledge frees up my mind for creative thought. > And as for "Hitler" claiming that - as you said about his admiration for a > brilliant lazy man - eh......... last I heard - the man was a fruit cake, > lost the war, cost thousands of lives, innocent ones at that - and ended up > committing suicide - WHAT A LOSER. And I would want to follow his > examples/principles - why? The statements that I quoted were from a WWI German military leader probably uttered while Hitler was still a private or corporal. Why do you have to try to misrepresent what I said? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228006 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <6cksd25bmlgrgii3q4g2goan6k4r9rk0j2@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:57:13 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Since frequency assignments aren't theory, your question is both > irrelevant and incompetent. So the questions on my Extra exam were irrelevant? In that, I tend to agree with you. I would like to see one and only one entry level amateur radio exam leading to one brotherhood of amateur radio operators devoid of the jealousy, pecking order, and back-biting apparent in your postings and others. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228007 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:04:45 GMT Al Klein wrote: > But, since you don't know the difference between "learning" and > "memorizing", nor which subjects fall into which category, you > probably can't see the parallel. Learning is impossible without memorizing. You are simply ignorant of the definition of the words you are using. Is English your second language? Again, >from Websters: "memorize - to commit to memory" -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228008 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:06:36 -0400 Message-ID: References: <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:51:28 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >L. wrote: >> I have a ton of books in my reach too - so whats your point? > >If you are ambitious enough to already possess the knowledge, >you don't need the books. I am too lazy to try to possess all >knowledge so I need the books. Not having to memorize all >knowledge frees up my mind for creative thought. > >> And as for "Hitler" claiming that - as you said about his admiration for a >> brilliant lazy man - eh......... last I heard - the man was a fruit cake, >> lost the war, cost thousands of lives, innocent ones at that - and ended up >> committing suicide - WHAT A LOSER. And I would want to follow his >> examples/principles - why? > >The statements that I quoted were from a WWI German military >leader probably uttered while Hitler was still a private or >corporal. Why do you have to try to misrepresent what I said? I thought it was WW1 quote and the advice that beat Gemany was that tehy uboat war would bring the USA ito the war but the statements are always msirepresented it is about the only tool left them http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228009 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:08:14 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: > > "The absolutely worst source of the definition of a technical term is > a non-technical dictionary. "Memorize" is NOT a technical word. Please get back to us when you have talked the IEEE into putting your special definition of "memorize" into their technical dictionary. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228010 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de2a50$0$6585$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:07:55 -0400 Message-ID: <44de6d87$0$6607$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:IDtDg.6505$1f6.5125@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > L. wrote: >> I don't care what "YOUR" dictionary shows. There are some out there for >> example which show the word COCK for example - as a type of Bird OR the >> preparing of a rifle or gun for firing and leave it at that - while a >> "few" others will show the "Slang" term used - as many do - meaning >> sexual organ. SO - ALL DICTIONARYS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. > > From my dictionary: "cock - 5. Slang (vulgar) a. penis. b. sexual > relations with a man." > > Seems my 2230 page unabridged dictionary covers slang very well but > does not have a slang definition for "memorize". Please try again. > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp I don't care what your dictionary says. PEOPLE MISUSE words ALL the time - and definately in this case. "I" again STATE - "I" DID NOT START the "hair splitting" argument. I was merely trying to rationalize where BOTH of you were coming from and sadly neither of you know yourselves. AGAIN I SAY - THIS WHOLE FREAKING ARGUMENT IS - STUPID. L. Article: 228011 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:11:49 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <6cksd25bmlgrgii3q4g2goan6k4r9rk0j2@4ax.com> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:57:13 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Al Klein wrote: >> Since frequency assignments aren't theory, your question is both >> irrelevant and incompetent. > >So the questions on my Extra exam were irrelevant? >In that, I tend to agree with you. I would like to >see one and only one entry level amateur radio exam >leading to one brotherhood of amateur radio operators >devoid of the jealousy, pecking order, and back-biting >apparent in your postings and others. amen http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228012 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Mark@kb9rqz.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:12:09 -0400 Message-ID: References: <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de2a50$0$6585$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de6d87$0$6607$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:07:55 -0400, "L." wrote: >"Cecil Moore" wrote in message >news:IDtDg.6505$1f6.5125@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >> L. wrote: >>> I don't care what "YOUR" dictionary shows. There are some out there for >>> example which show the word COCK for example - as a type of Bird OR the >>> preparing of a rifle or gun for firing and leave it at that - while a >>> "few" others will show the "Slang" term used - as many do - meaning >>> sexual organ. SO - ALL DICTIONARYS ARE NOT CREATED EQUAL. >> >> From my dictionary: "cock - 5. Slang (vulgar) a. penis. b. sexual >> relations with a man." >> >> Seems my 2230 page unabridged dictionary covers slang very well but >> does not have a slang definition for "memorize". Please try again. >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > >I don't care what your dictionary says. PEOPLE MISUSE words ALL the time - >and definately in this case. "I" again STATE - "I" DID NOT START the "hair >splitting" argument. I was merely trying to rationalize where BOTH of you >were coming from and sadly neither of you know yourselves. AGAIN I SAY - >THIS WHOLE FREAKING ARGUMENT IS - STUPID. then bail > >L. > http://kb9rqz.blogspot.com/ -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Article: 228013 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "N3" Subject: 2 Meter Beam Element Question Date: 12 Aug 2006 17:13:13 -0700 Message-ID: <1155427993.365527.265200@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> Which is more practical? Driven element with two directors or reflector, driven element, director. Article: 228014 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 20:17:10 -0400 Message-ID: <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > L. wrote: >> I have a ton of books in my reach too - so whats your point? > > If you are ambitious enough to already possess the knowledge, > you don't need the books. I am too lazy to try to possess all > knowledge so I need the books. Not having to memorize all > knowledge frees up my mind for creative thought. > >> And as for "Hitler" claiming that - as you said about his admiration for >> a brilliant lazy man - eh......... last I heard - the man was a fruit >> cake, lost the war, cost thousands of lives, innocent ones at that - and >> ended up committing suicide - WHAT A LOSER. And I would want to follow >> his examples/principles - why? > > The statements that I quoted were from a WWI German military > leader probably uttered while Hitler was still a private or > corporal. Why do you have to try to misrepresent what I said? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp OK, so maybe I misrepresented your quote "by accident" - big deal. HITLER was still a loser as was/is ANY ONE who bought/buys into that STUPID philosophy you spoke of. Pretty damned sad when you - speaking of ANYONE it applies to - are too "lazy" to "learn". That is almost laughable. Creative thinking - without knowledge? Surely you jest! I'm done arguing with someone who is "too" lazy to "learn". I'd prefer to talk to those who have "intelligence" to refer to - to stimulate the conversation. Good luck in your monologue. L. Article: 228015 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44ddec1b$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <%dmDg.9451$FN2.1314@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <42lsd2ddni97cu2bucrj73j36unefvptlg@4ax.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:22:31 GMT Al Klein wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Laziness allows one to achieve a goal by the most efficient >> route. Some famous German military leader said he would >> lots rather have brilliant and lazy officers than ambitious >> and stupid ones. > > As I recall, he was also known as one of the most idiotic strategists > the species has ever produced. His "fame" didn't stop him from being > the almost single-handed reason his country lost its big war, did it? This was a WWI German officer and I don't recall his name. Why do you think he was an idiotic strategist? Why do you think he single-handedly lost WWI? If you know so much about him, what was his name? > Being both intelligent and ambitious doesn't appear on your radar? The pride, lust, and greed usually accompanying ambition are a good percentage of the seven deadly sins. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228016 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 17:25:43 -0700 Message-ID: <1155428743.401993.321560@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: L. wrote: > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > > L. wrote: > >> I have a ton of books in my reach too - so whats your point? > > > > If you are ambitious enough to already possess the knowledge, > > you don't need the books. I am too lazy to try to possess all > > knowledge so I need the books. Not having to memorize all > > knowledge frees up my mind for creative thought. > > > >> And as for "Hitler" claiming that - as you said about his admiration for > >> a brilliant lazy man - eh......... last I heard - the man was a fruit > >> cake, lost the war, cost thousands of lives, innocent ones at that - and > >> ended up committing suicide - WHAT A LOSER. And I would want to follow > >> his examples/principles - why? > > > > The statements that I quoted were from a WWI German military > > leader probably uttered while Hitler was still a private or > > corporal. Why do you have to try to misrepresent what I said? > > -- > > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > OK, so maybe I misrepresented your quote "by accident" - big deal. it shows that you are ignorant of what you are tlaking about >HITLER > was still a loser as was/is ANY ONE who bought/buys into that STUPID > philosophy you spoke of. base effort t atr anyone that believes something you don't as a Nazi > Pretty damned sad when you - speaking of ANYONE it > applies to - are too "lazy" to "learn". That is almost laughable. Creative > thinking - without knowledge? Surely you jest! without occopiing ones mind by consdiering triva > > I'm done arguing with someone who is "too" lazy to "learn". I'd prefer to > talk to those who have "intelligence" to refer to - to stimulate the > conversation. Good luck in your monologue. hardly a monlogou why do you misrepresent the state of reality > > L. Article: 228017 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: eternalsquire@comcast.net Subject: Moving again... have to make a new antenna (sigh) Date: 12 Aug 2006 17:30:52 -0700 Message-ID: <1155429052.626794.225160@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> All, My family is having to move again.... The place I am moving to is on the edge of a circular trailer part, surrounded by a metal fence about 1 mile in circumference. On the other side of the fence is an effectively infinite backlot studded with 6 to 9 foot mesquite trees. This time I am not allowed to get the antenna up any higher than the fence or the mesquite trees. However, length is a definite possibility? Any suggestions for making the most of this situation for low-angle DX on 40 or 20? Thanks in advance, The Eternal Squire Article: 228018 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de2a50$0$6585$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de6d87$0$6607$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: <0puDg.6518$1f6.5481@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:30:52 GMT L. wrote: > THIS WHOLE FREAKING ARGUMENT IS - STUPID. Yes, now you are getting it. I remember when hams like you were trying to keep the single-sidewinders off the air in the 1950's. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228019 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brenda Ann" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 09:35:40 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> -- Say no to institutionalized interference. Just say NO to HD/IBOC! "L." wrote in message news:44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net... > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:UlmDg.9457$FN2.1600@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com... >> L. wrote: >>> YES - you could simply "memorize" (not really commit to memory) >> >> Here's the crux of your communications problem. From Webster's: >> "memorize - to commit to memory". *Everything* that one >> memorizes is the act of committing something to memory. You >> definitely need to pick a different word than "memorize" >> to describe the concept you are trying to present. Memorizing >> is how human beings remember things and it is a good thing. >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > Eh, excuse me, it was not "I" who started splitting hairs here with regard > to MEMORY AND MEMORIZATION. > "I" KNOW what "memorization" means - I was using it in the "SLANG" sense > that YOU all are arguing about - memorizing something for just a few > moments of need as opposed to a "lifetime". There ARE "SLANG" uses for > popular words which do NOT coincide necessarily with Webster. Again, it > was not "I" who started this ridiculous argument. > > AND for what it is worth - if you're (whoever this applies to) that > freaking lazy to not want to have to "learn" something - then it is no > damned wonder this country is going to hell. The downfall of our Education > system begins with that very principle (refusal to learn). I don't give a > crap WHAT Hitler or some other idiot said about being lazy and smart - if > you're lazy - you are no damned good to society or yourself for that > matter. The REST of us who have to pick up the pace to deal with the > slackers. I'll be damned if I ever hire a "LAZY" smart person. I want a > person who is going to EARN their keep. Sitting there telling me how > things should be isn't what I would hire them for - the purpose is to DO > the things as they're supposed to be done. > > Working smarter - not harder - is a good concept - but I DO NOT THINK - > the originator of it meant for LAZY asses to be using it as an EXCUSE to > not have to learn. I live by that concept (work smarter - not harder) > often but it sure in hell hasn't stopped me from having to - OR DESIRING > to LEARN. > > Lou Let me rephrase my original statement. Learning something means you can actually use what you learn. It is more than the ability to parrot what you have memorized. You can memorize the answers from the back of the Teacher's Edition of a textbook, but you are not LEARNING anything. This is exactly what you are doing when you memorize the answers to a pool of questions. You don't KNOW anything. If you LEARN the material, you can take any given set of parameters and formulate an answer to anything you need to know, WITHOUT having to go to the shelf to look it up in a book (which, BTW, you can't do when you're needing complex mathematical equation to figure out the frequency of resonance for a capacitance of 120pF and an inductance of 3uH (or the x of c or x of l for such a circuit). Of course, none of this means anything to an appliance operator. Appliance operator: n. c. 1985 An amateur radio operator who knows only enough to tune the VFO on his radio and speak into the microphone. Some advanced appliance operators know enough to connect other peripheral devices such as digital mode devices or power amplifiers, but do not know how these devices work, nor how to construct such devices. Article: 228020 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:37:41 GMT L. wrote: > I'm done arguing with someone who is "too" lazy to "learn". I'd prefer to > talk to those who have "intelligence" to refer to - to stimulate the > conversation. My MENSA membership number is 1006281. What's your MENSA membership number? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228021 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:48:36 GMT Brenda Ann wrote: > Some > advanced appliance operators know enough to connect other peripheral devices > such as digital mode devices or power amplifiers, but do not know how these > devices work, nor how to construct such devices. An amateur radio license is an entry level license. It is not a university degree. When I obtained all amateur privileges at the age of 15, I didn't know squat. All I had done is memorize the ARRL License Manual. Six years later I had a EE degree. What is wrong with learning the technical stuff after one obtains his entry level license? Do you know how to construct an IC-756PROII? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228022 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brenda Ann" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 10:14:20 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> -- Say no to institutionalized interference. Just say NO to HD/IBOC! "Cecil Moore" wrote in message news:pvuDg.6519$1f6.2390@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... > L. wrote: >> I'm done arguing with someone who is "too" lazy to "learn". I'd prefer to >> talk to those who have "intelligence" to refer to - to stimulate the >> conversation. > > My MENSA membership number is 1006281. > What's your MENSA membership number? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp A MENSA membership means you have a high intelligence quotient. A high intelligence quotient does not necessarily mean you know anything, only that if you apply yourself that you have the ability to learn more easily than an average person. I know some very lazy MENSA members that can't even spell a large number of the words they use. In other words, even people above average intelligence can be and often are too lazy to learn. They do manage to apply what they do know better than most. Article: 228023 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 18:45:05 -0700 Message-ID: <1155433505.131116.226510@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> References: Cecil Moore wrote: > Al Klein wrote: > > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >> You denigrate the resistor code. > > > > Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the > > resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, > > the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. > Even with the resistor color code, most of us *MEMORIZED* > a jingle like: > Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly > I believe the military used to teach their technicians > to *MEMORIZE* that jingle. Exactly how does one develop > the resistor color code from first principles? > -- > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp How did capacitors escape getting color coded? Article: 228024 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "an old friend" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: 12 Aug 2006 18:58:18 -0700 Message-ID: <1155434298.409922.126140@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > Cecil Moore wrote: > > Al Klein wrote: > > > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > > > >> You denigrate the resistor code. > > > > > > Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the > > > resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, > > > the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. > > > Even with the resistor color code, most of us *MEMORIZED* > > a jingle like: > > Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly > > I believe the military used to teach their technicians > > to *MEMORIZE* that jingle. Exactly how does one develop > > the resistor color code from first principles? > > -- > > 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > How did capacitors escape getting color coded? ssshhhhh bb don't ask such questions please Article: 228025 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Brenda Ann" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 11:06:13 +0900 Message-ID: References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1155433505.131116.226510@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> -- Say no to institutionalized interference. Just say NO to HD/IBOC! wrote in message news:1155433505.131116.226510@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > > Cecil Moore wrote: >> Al Klein wrote: >> > hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > >> >> You denigrate the resistor code. >> > >> > Not at all. It's a lot better than having the value printed on the >> > resistor in numbers. Even with MIL quality and transparent coatings, >> > the numbers on 1/8 watt resistors are kind of hard to read. > >> Even with the resistor color code, most of us *MEMORIZED* >> a jingle like: >> Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly >> I believe the military used to teach their technicians >> to *MEMORIZE* that jingle. Exactly how does one develop >> the resistor color code from first principles? >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > How did capacitors escape getting color coded? > For a long time, they were. The coding system was similar to that for resistors, but there were additional stripes or dots to denote voltage rating. http://www.pickguardian.com/pickguardian/Images/Sprague%20Bumblebee%20Chart.pdf and http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/3g.htm Article: 228026 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Cecil Moore Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176286.445811.289510@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1155265525.310166.4760@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <4fspd2p7qecou8mmsf5tipdh59nfo5l2qs@4ax.com> <2D6Dg.7768$FN2.1842@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <1155433505.131116.226510@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:25:26 GMT hot-ham-and-cheese@hotmail.com wrote: > How did capacitors escape getting color coded? They didn't. I still have boxes of silver mica caps that use essentially the same color code as resistors. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp Article: 228027 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: Walter Maxwell Subject: Re: Rule of Thumb for coax chokes Message-ID: References: <9pudnS88mudASEHZRVny3g@bt.com> <2u6Dg.7767$FN2.5867@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <3nsrd2lbrj6nsff2ojghfh6p2af1ts8h6q@4ax.com> Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:26:56 -0400 On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:32:09 GMT, Cecil Moore wrote: >Walter Maxwell wrote: >> IMO, Cecil, you've been hoaxed if you thought a coil self-resonant at 6.6 MHz >> was a high-Q coil at 4 MHz. > >All I know is that Texas Bugcatcher coils tend to be >near the top of the the 75m mobile shootout results. >Using base loading on a GMC pickup, it is resonant on >3.8 MHz with a six foot stinger. Remove the stinger and >it is self-resonant at 6.6 MHz. > >My 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil was a gift from K7JEB. >It is 26.5 turns at 4 tpi on a 6" air core form. >Calculates out to be about 70 uH. I don't know how >to make it higher Q. I'm guessing #12 wire in the coil, which leaves lots of spacing between turns , which should make the distributed capacitance very small. I haven't made any calculations, but a seat of the pants estimate would say the self-resonant frequency would be much, much higher than 6.6 MHz. (As I remember, the Hustler used #14 close spaced on about 2" diameter to obtain a self-resonant frequency at 6MHz.) Cecil, I suggest you re-measure the self-resonant frequency of the coil by itself, and if you have the means to do it, also measure the series resistance at both the self-resonant frequency and at 4.0 MHz. I'm betting there will be a large difference in the resistances, and that the self-resonant frequency will be much greater than 6.6 MHz. Walt Article: 228028 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DEAAAA.7030203@fuse.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:29:30 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Cecil Moore wrote: > user@private-mail-domain.invalid wrote: > >> It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with >> corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions >> were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae >> that had been learnt to calculate the answer. > > > It is true that the 1950's License Manuals were not multiple > choice but the exams were. The License Manuals went like this: > > Q: What is the unit of electrical resistance? > > A: The unit of electrical resistance is the ohm. > > The exam then had multiple choices, one of them being "ohm". > > It is hard to understand how anyone could develop that correct > answer from first principles or formulas. I memorized the > correct answer and it still exists in my memory as something > I once memorized long before I ever knew there was a man named > Ohm after whom the unit of electrical resistance was named. > > The difference between memorizing the question pool answers > from the 1950's License Manuals and memorizing the question > pool answers of today is just splitting hairs. I used exactly > the same memorizing techniques to ace the Extra exam in > 2000 as I did to pass the Conditional exam in 1953. Here here (!) Cecil, I'm happy to agree with you. Modern testing techniques are intended to be transparent. This is true for FCC exams, Postal exams, any and all government qualification exams. (And because of this, all qualifying exams in the private sector, as well.) It took a lot of litigation to get there. Government agencies had to prove that their qualifying exams were directly linked to the specific tasks required of the given position for which the individual was applying. A Postal Carrier needn't know Pythagorus' theorum to deliver the mail. I took the Postal Carrier exam 35 years ago and did not do well. I wasn't good at sorting on a timed basis. This notion of a "cheapening" of FCC requirements because the question pool is open to the public is a red herring: transparency is the rule. If you look at the question pool and study it, you will gain the necessary expertise to pass the exam. This is not cheating, nor is it short-circuiting the "REAL" ham radio "requirements" that some view as sacrosanct. I used ARRL manuals to pass the Extra Exam and I do not defer to anyone in this regard. Does this make me a ham radio genius? Not AT ALL. Man, I have SO MUCH to learn. This newsgroup is "potentially" very helpful! For that, I give thanks. You know, I love ham radio. I'm happy so many join the ranks each year. If there still is a concern out there, be an Elmer and address it. John AB8O (yeah, I changed my call) Article: 228029 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna Message-ID: <44DEADA7.5010806@fuse.net> Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 00:42:15 -0400 From: jawod Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> To me, MENSA is a sort of "Who's Who". As such, one can value it appropriately or ignore it completely. To me, it's a sort of conundrum: If you are confident in your intelligence, why do you need validation? Is it the obverse of the T-shirt "I'm with stupid"? My apologies for adding to this old and fraying thread. John AB8O Article: 228030 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 02:23:13 -0400 Message-ID: <44dec558$0$6587$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Brenda Ann" wrote in message news:eblu84$6sk$1@news2.kornet.net... > > > -- > Say no to institutionalized interference. > Just say NO to HD/IBOC! > "Cecil Moore" wrote in message > news:pvuDg.6519$1f6.2390@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net... >> L. wrote: >>> I'm done arguing with someone who is "too" lazy to "learn". I'd prefer >>> to talk to those who have "intelligence" to refer to - to stimulate the >>> conversation. >> >> My MENSA membership number is 1006281. >> What's your MENSA membership number? >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > A MENSA membership means you have a high intelligence quotient. A high > intelligence quotient does not necessarily mean you know anything, only > that if you apply yourself that you have the ability to learn more easily > than an average person. I know some very lazy MENSA members that can't > even spell a large number of the words they use. > > In other words, even people above average intelligence can be and often > are too lazy to learn. They do manage to apply what they do know better > than most. > Mensa - who gives a damned? Most of the "brilliant" people I've ever met - had their thumbs up their ass when it came to doing the basic things in life - they can't do them. What the hell good is a "brilliant" person if they're too stupid to know how or lazy to do "basic" things? If having a Mensa number means you're bankrupt in common sense or "lazy", I'd rather not be a member - thank you. Often, it is "common sense" which gets you through - NOT "brilliance". From all I've ever heard and /or seen - "brilliance" and "common sense" don't go hand in hand. Sitting in a chair with a bunch of books behind you to make you "appear" smart and not getting off your lazy ass to use it or to further your education - is not a "productive" person. I know a few welfare bums who fall into that description- "appear" smart, "act" smart - lazy as hell. Being in the center of a University Library with books on most any subject - is NOT going to make you any more intelligent if you don't venture to "learn". Even at that, if you don't use it, you lose it. This is funny as all hell....... some shmuck "claiming" to be a "genious" coming in here and trying to make the rest of us seem inferior to him. No one is any better than the rest of us. Their crap doesn't stink any less than ours. Just when he starts losing his grip on the argument, he pulls this so called mensa number out - just like a race card. So, what, we're supposed to take pity? Bow down? I don't think so! The answer to that is "PLONK". There was another party a few years ago tried that - and after about a month - him and his self proclaimed "geniousness" - disappeared. The idea here is to come in - share ideas, thoughts, "help" if possible - NOT try to place yourself on a throne above all. I can assure you the majority of us don't tolerate that attitude. You can agree or agree to disagree on any use of words, theories, laws, principles, strategies, etc. But when you put yourself on a pedestal....... the game is over - you'll either find one of your mensa friends to keep you company or be an awful lonely person on here. To respond to a statement regarding me in a previous post - Hams like "me" NEVER kept or attempted to keep any one off the air. If anything, I've gotten people "involved" in Amateur Radio - with one (12 years old at the time) going on to higher education once out of high school - and getting a very good job from it. His parents couldn't thank me enough. Even if that is the only good example of the good I am/was able to do - in Amateur Radio, then I'm satisfied. But I haven't stopped there........ I teach Amateur Radio classes when asked - and on other occasions - I've taught basic electronics - taking those folks beyond the Study Guide. It is nice to be able to "use" and "impart" that knowledge so that others can benefit. Article: 228031 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "Olie" Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:12:52 -0500 Message-ID: <7j8t6.7pu.19.1@news.alt.net> References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44dec558$0$6587$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> >> >> My MENSA membership number is 1006281. >> What's your MENSA membership number? >> -- >> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp > > A MENSA membership means you have a high intelligence quotient. A high > intelligence quotient does not necessarily mean you know anything, only > that if you apply yourself that you have the ability to learn more easily > than an average person. I know some very lazy MENSA members that can't > even spell a large number of the words they use. > > In other words, even people above average intelligence can be and often > are too lazy to learn. They do manage to apply what they do know better > than most. > Mensa - who gives a damned? Most of the "brilliant" people I've ever met - had their thumbs up their ass when it came to doing the basic things in life - they can't do them. What the hell good is a "brilliant" person if they're too stupid to know how or lazy to do "basic" things? If having a Mensa number means you're bankrupt in common sense or "lazy", I'd rather not be a member - thank you. Often, it is "common sense" which gets you through - NOT "brilliance". From all I've ever heard and /or seen - "brilliance" and "common sense" don't go hand in hand. Sitting in a chair with a bunch of books behind you to make you "appear" smart and not getting off your lazy ass to use it or to further your education - is not a "productive" person. I know a few welfare bums who fall into that description- "appear" smart, "act" smart - lazy as hell. Being in the center of a University Library with books on most any subject - is NOT going to make you any more intelligent if you don't venture to "learn". Even at that, if you don't use it, you lose it. ............. This is funny as all getout Obviously the person claiming to be a Mensa member has poked a figurative finger into your soft spot. Sensitive, are you? Taking umbrage? Apparently you feel that the alleged Mensa member has slighted you either directly or indirectly, ergo your lengthy and uncalled-for diatribe. Of course, in your self-righteous response you probably did not consider the possibility that the "Mensa" person was a troll. Makes no difference, does it? He certainly set you off on a rant. I give him five stars for that. Sit back, read the post again and view it with a bit of a tongue-in-cheek sense of humor. It will lower your blood pressure. Even if the guy IS a Mensa member, by the simple fact of him bragging about same shows that he is a blowgut braggart whose ego has gotten in the way of common sense. I doubt he is what he says he is, but he certainly elicited a wordy response >from you. He wins. You lost. Article: 228032 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1153584132.692529.177920@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <0ro4c2d13dq9i23ab98uiiql3spgmhfi22@4ax.com> <1153597502.509378.294260@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1153664765.447946.4510@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1154574315.819259.204140@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <6gr3d21444qdt5m6mr1e1jpavltvso929p@4ax.com> <1155176094.212232.56330@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44DEAAAA.7030203@fuse.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:17:51 -0400 Message-ID: <44ded225$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "jawod" wrote in message news:44DEAAAA.7030203@fuse.net... > Cecil Moore wrote: >> user@private-mail-domain.invalid wrote: >> >>> It used to be that there weren't a set of questions with >>> corresponding answers - there was a syllabus from which the questions >>> were set. It took understanding of the syllabus to apply the formulae >>> that had been learnt to calculate the answer. >> >> >> It is true that the 1950's License Manuals were not multiple >> choice but the exams were. The License Manuals went like this: >> >> Q: What is the unit of electrical resistance? >> >> A: The unit of electrical resistance is the ohm. >> >> The exam then had multiple choices, one of them being "ohm". >> >> It is hard to understand how anyone could develop that correct >> answer from first principles or formulas. I memorized the >> correct answer and it still exists in my memory as something >> I once memorized long before I ever knew there was a man named >> Ohm after whom the unit of electrical resistance was named. >> >> The difference between memorizing the question pool answers >> from the 1950's License Manuals and memorizing the question >> pool answers of today is just splitting hairs. I used exactly >> the same memorizing techniques to ace the Extra exam in >> 2000 as I did to pass the Conditional exam in 1953. > Here here (!) > Cecil, I'm happy to agree with you. > > Modern testing techniques are intended to be transparent. This is true for > FCC exams, Postal exams, any and all government qualification exams. > (And because of this, all qualifying exams in the private sector, as > well.) > > It took a lot of litigation to get there. Government agencies had to > prove that their qualifying exams were directly linked to the specific > tasks required of the given position for which the individual was > applying. > > A Postal Carrier needn't know Pythagorus' theorum to deliver the mail. > I took the Postal Carrier exam 35 years ago and did not do well. I wasn't > good at sorting on a timed basis. > > This notion of a "cheapening" of FCC requirements because the question > pool is open to the public is a red herring: transparency is the rule. If > you look at the question pool and study it, you will gain the necessary > expertise to pass the exam. This is not cheating, nor is it > short-circuiting the "REAL" ham radio "requirements" that some view as > sacrosanct. > > I used ARRL manuals to pass the Extra Exam and I do not defer to anyone in > this regard. Does this make me a ham radio genius? Not AT ALL. Man, I > have SO MUCH to learn. This newsgroup is "potentially" very helpful! > For that, I give thanks. > > You know, I love ham radio. I'm happy so many join the ranks each year. > If there still is a concern out there, be an Elmer and address it. > > John > AB8O (yeah, I changed my call) I don't know if there is actually any truth to this BUT - the dumbing down "allegedly" started back in Reagan's day or was it George Srs? - when someone here in the U.S. apparently couldn't pass the exam - and being he was in good relations with the then King of Jordan, the King of Jordan asked Reagan or Bush Sr to do something to help out. I've heard that story a few times. True or not - the tests have changed drastically. The tests really (in my opinion) aren't meant to "teach" anything or shall we say - show any "in depth proficiency". The study guides give you "just" enough to pass the exam - without going into a lot of information. You certainly can't pass a novice OR extra exam and instantly qualify yourself as an Electronics Technician. The material just isn't that in depth. For that matter, the GROL tests and accompanying manuals don't do a hell of a lot either for "teaching" - or showing "proficiency". They're merely meant to get you in the door - period. The latter is scary - considering that the GROL though diminished in need in most cases as of this point in time - IS still required in "some" cases - as a sign of "knowledge" of the subject. That is why many places that I know of, produce their own exams - designed to actually test your knowledge. One guy I know - been in 2 way radio for years, good at it, smart as a whip - took an entry exam to get a new job. Said that was the most in depth - "drilling" - organized test he ever took, considering he had his Commercial license "pre- GROL" and his amateur license. I have read articles from a leading publication in the industry that there is a move afoot to get the FCC Commercial License - some teeth put back in. Why? - Due to an increasing issue with interference and so on. Seems to me, though in some cases - the horses are already out of the barn and "maybe" too late to try to close the doors, changes "could" be made. What gets me, is that article spoke of another agency doing the testing and licensing. So - in other words - the FCC - our "RADIO" governing agency has lost its grip on this? IF the FCC can't control it, how the hell is some "private" agency? Not that it would happen, but I have to wonder just "how" they may want to try to differentiate between those with GROLs and any subsequent endorsements - of those who just read a "study guide" enough to pass - from those who have "actual" electronics schooling? As an examiner for FCC Commercial AND Amateur exams, I've seen many folks come through. You can usually pick out those who know their stuff and those who do not. You can also usually pick out those who DO know the stuff but freeze on exams. For what it is worth - at least in my experience here, most who have "schooling" do NOT usually bring any type of "study guide". I've tested whole groups of School students and not one study guide was to be seen. Same goes for those who are "comfortable" with their knowledge of Ham radio. They simply feel - if they don't know it by test time - then no sense testing. For the GROL, it is an expensive proposition if you don't know your stuff or haven't been able to grasp the study guide material. Back in the day - it was usually the cost of a LONG trip (maybe lodging too) to an FCC office, now they're more local but cost is still there - pass or fail. Come to think of it, if the current rate increases stay the same - soon - the Amateur Exams will cost almost if not as much as the GROL! They're almost half way there now - depending on which VEC/TCM you go through. Yes, it is going to be very interesting indeed to see how things progress not only in the Amateur Licensing area, but also the "Commercial" side as well - for the next few years at least. L. Article: 228033 of rec.radio.amateur.antenna From: "L." References: <1155268104.444785.177310@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <1155331373.380661.27660@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <3O6Dg.7773$FN2.4946@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com> <44dded8c$0$6593$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44de150a$0$6591$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <1155405497.799120.156630@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com> <9epDg.7812$kO3.4544@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com> <44de358f$0$6597$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <4QtDg.6510$1f6.2095@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net> <44de6f6e$0$6604$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <44dec558$0$6587$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> <7j8t6.7pu.19.1@news.alt.net> Subject: Re: If you had to use CW to save someone's life, would that person die? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:31:26 -0400 Message-ID: <44ded554$0$6596$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net> "Olie" wrote in message news:7j8t6.7pu.19.1@news.alt.net... > >>> >>> My MENSA membership number is 1006281. >>> What's your MENSA membership number? >>> -- >>> 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp >> >> A MENSA membership means you have a high intelligence quotient. A high >> intelligence quotient does not necessarily mean you know anything, only >> that if you apply yourself that you have the ability to learn more easily >> than an average person. I know some very lazy MENSA members that can't >> even spell a large number of the words they use. >> >> In other words, even people above average intelligence can be and often >> are too lazy to learn. They do manage to apply what they do know better >> than most. >> > > Mensa - who gives a damned? Most of the "brilliant" people I've ever met - > had their thumbs up their ass when it came to doing the basic things in > life - they can't do them. What the hell good is a "brilliant" person if > they're too stupid to know how or lazy to do "basic" things? If having a > Mensa number means you're bankrupt in common sense or "lazy", I'd rather > not > be a member - thank you. Often, it is "common sense" which gets you > through - NOT "brilliance". From all I've ever heard and /or seen - > "brilliance" and "common sense" don't go hand in hand. Sitting in a chair > with a bunch of books behind you to make you "appear" smart and not > getting > off your lazy ass to use it or to further your education - is not a > "productive" person. I know a few welfare bums who fall into that > description- "appear" smart, "act" smart - lazy as hell. Being in the > center > of a University Library with books on most any subject - is NOT going to > make you any more intelligent if you don't venture to "learn". Even at > that, > if you don't use it, you lose it. > > ............. > This is funny as all getout > > Obviously the person claiming to be a Mensa member has poked a figurative > finger into your soft spot. Sensitive, are you? Taking umbrage? Apparently > you feel that the alleged Mensa member has slighted you either directly or > indirectly, ergo your lengthy and uncalled-for diatribe. > Of course, in your self-righteous response you probably did not consider > the > possibility that the "Mensa" person was a troll. Makes no difference, does > it? He certainly set you off on a rant. > I give him five stars for that. > > Sit back, read the post again and view it with a bit of a tongue-in-cheek > sense of humor. It will lower your blood pressure. Even if the guy IS a > Mensa member, by the simple fact of him bragging about same shows that he > is > a blowgut braggart whose ego has gotten in the way of common sense. > I doubt he is what he says he is, but he certainly elicited a wordy > response > from you. > He wins. You lost. > Eh, not really........... I'm "agreeing" with you as to his content. As to mine, I was basically replying to what Brenda Ann had said. He didn't hit a "soft spot". People like that - I just find very ignorant. You're right, it is funny! My exchange with him died with my last contact with him. I'm merely replying to others. AND giving my opinion about people like that. Him get to me? THAT IS FUNNY! I've had better people try. So, in that regard I'll disagree with you. He didn't budge my blood pressure - one iota. So, sorry - he gets no stars. I've just agreed to disagree with him and am agreeing with the others - YOU included (to the point mentioned). L.