Article: 51341 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: litle ole me <""nobody \"@ nowhere.com"> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> Message-ID: <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:29:51 GMT The Magnum wrote: > "The Radio Amateur Formerly Known As G4KFK" wrote in > message news:1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... >> The Magnum wrote: >>> It's all down to interfering busybodies who demand that anything > considered >>> harmless must be curtailed. Fumes from leaded solder especially in a >>> confined area can be considered highly toxic and if 'sniffed in' in > large >>> amounts can send you loopy at best and kill you at worst. >> Shirley the fumes are from the flux, not the solder? > > Yes there are fumes from the flux, obviously. The lead content in the fumes > from molten solder is still toxic. It is another of the reasons (apart from > cost) that you won't find lead pipe in new houses or lead based paint. > except that there is NO LEAD CONTENT IN THE FLUX FUMES. Lead does not vaporize until much higher temperature than soldering temperatures... >> RoHS is to address heavy metals in post-consumer waste re-entering the >> environment via landfill sites. > > Yes it is. But I thought the waste side of the proposal was covered by the > WEEE regulations and the RoSH covered the fact it is a Hazardous material to > use .. period.(Please excuse the crass Americanism ;o) > > 73' > Graham Article: 51342 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "The Magnum" References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:55:03 +0100 Message-ID: <44d0e74a$0$29244$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> "litle ole me" <""nobody \"@ nowhere.com"> wrote in message news:3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net... > > except that there is NO LEAD CONTENT IN THE FLUX FUMES. > Lead does not vaporize until much higher temperature than soldering > temperatures... Now are you seriously trying to tell me there are NO traces of lead in the flux fumes? Are you certain about that? 73' Graham -- -.-. -... / .-. .- -.. .. --- Radio is only a Hobby. Don't let it rule your life... 73/51 - Graham, 26-Golf Charlie-19 (www.open-channel.co.uk) Article: 51343 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "DieSea" References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> <44d0e74a$0$29244$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 18:54:24 +0100 Message-ID: <44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk> > > Now are you seriously trying to tell me there are NO traces of lead in the > flux fumes? Are you certain about that? > I think you should ask Nick about that >From what I hear he just looks at solder and it runs No doubt because of the heat DieSea Article: 51344 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "The Magnum" References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> <44d0e74a$0$29244$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 19:07:19 +0100 Message-ID: <44d0ea2a$0$29239$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> "DieSea" wrote in message news:44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk... > > > > > > Now are you seriously trying to tell me there are NO traces of lead in the > > flux fumes? Are you certain about that? > > > > I think you should ask Nick about that > > From what I hear he just looks at solder and it runs > > No doubt because of the heat > > DieSea > LOL. In all seriousness though there must be an element of lead in the fumes no matter what the supposed vaporisation level of the solder is. As in much the same way as harmful levels of lead were found in water running through lead pipes. These pipes weren't at vaporisation temperature to pass small amounts into the water running through it. Likewise the flux core in the lead solder would 'surely' have a concentration of lead in it no matter how insignificant an amount it might be. 73' Graham -- -.-. -... / .-. .- -.. .. --- Radio is only a Hobby. Don't let it rule your life... 73/51 - Graham, 26-Golf Charlie-19 (www.open-channel.co.uk) Article: 51345 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: litle ole me <""nobody \"@ nowhere.com"> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> <44d0e74a$0$29244$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk> <44d0ea2a$0$29239$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 02:30:56 GMT The Magnum wrote: > "DieSea" wrote in message > news:44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk... >> >>> Now are you seriously trying to tell me there are NO traces of lead in > the >>> flux fumes? Are you certain about that? >>> >> I think you should ask Nick about that >> >> From what I hear he just looks at solder and it runs >> >> No doubt because of the heat >> >> DieSea >> > > LOL. > > In all seriousness though there must be an element of lead in the fumes no > matter what the supposed vaporisation level of the solder is. As in much the > same way as harmful levels of lead were found in water running through lead > pipes. These pipes weren't at vaporisation temperature to pass small amounts > into the water running through it. Likewise the flux core in the lead solder > would 'surely' have a concentration of lead in it no matter how > insignificant an amount it might be. > > 73' > Graham yes, that would be called leaching, and lead does not leach into the air. it would also be due to water 'erosion' of the solder. it IS rather soft.. yes, I am serious. no lead in the solder fumes. if there was lead in the solder fumes, then most every ham end electronic tinkerer would have serious health problems. (hey, wait a minute... ;-> just kidding. no lead in solder fumes.) Article: 51346 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "DieSea" References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> <44d0e74a$0$29244$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <44d0e6cf$0$30318$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk> <44d0ea2a$0$29239$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 08:10:18 +0100 Message-ID: <44d1a151$0$26596$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk> >> >> In all seriousness though there must be an element of lead in the fumes no >> matter what the supposed vaporisation level of the solder is. As in much the >> same way as harmful levels of lead were found in water running through lead >> pipes. These pipes weren't at vaporisation temperature to pass small amounts >> into the water running through it. Likewise the flux core in the lead solder >> would 'surely' have a concentration of lead in it no matter how >> insignificant an amount it might be. >> >> 73' >> Graham > > yes, that would be called leaching, and lead does not leach into the air. it > would also be due to water 'erosion' of the solder. it IS rather soft.. > > yes, I am serious. no lead in the solder fumes. > > if there was lead in the solder fumes, then most every ham end electronic > tinkerer would have serious health problems. Ahhhhhhh That explains it And Confirms the ramblings of MattD Where is he by the way Someone hasn't filled is boots with lead and heaved him overboard I hope Unlike Nick he will be missed DieSea Article: 51347 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "The Radio Amateur Formerly Known As G4KFK" Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: 3 Aug 2006 04:09:59 -0700 Message-ID: <1154603399.483543.236560@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> References: DieSea wrote: > Someone hasn't filled is boots with lead and heaved him overboard I hope Sorry, but that's no longer possible. RoHS came into force on July 1st. They would have to have filled his boots with non-toxic lead substitute. As for heaving somebody overboard, please remember that Dihydrogen Monoxide restrictions will come into force as of September 1st. Please see http://www.dhmo.org/ for more details. Article: 51348 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "Catweazel" Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: 3 Aug 2006 05:36:34 -0700 Message-ID: <1154608594.866299.27770@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> References: The Radio Amateur Formerly Known As G4KFK wrote: (snip) > As for heaving somebody overboard, please remember that Dihydrogen > Monoxide restrictions will come into force as of September 1st. Please > see http://www.dhmo.org/ for more details. Good news for the soap-dodgers, then. 8-) Article: 51349 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "Catweazel" Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: 3 Aug 2006 05:46:35 -0700 Message-ID: <1154609195.244462.282870@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com> References: Steve wrote: (snip) > Which makes it very frustrating that the net aimed at mobile phones > and MP3 players turned into a sieve to encompass low volume long life > items in fixed installations and even church organs.... > that's much the normative behaviour of our interpretive legislators - take a simple EU directive, bloat it out of all proportion, then when there's a complaint, it can be pinned on those nasty EU beaurocrats. In the meantime they'll get knighthoods for being so diligent - much easier than polishing the handle on the big front door.. Ah, it's medication time. Nurse!!! Article: 51350 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: Prometheus Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 19:35:25 +0100 Message-ID: References: In article <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, litle ole me writes > >except that there is NO LEAD CONTENT IN THE FLUX FUMES. >Lead does not vaporize until much higher temperature than soldering >temperatures... There will be lead in the fumes; molecules regularly detach themselves and float off into the air from liquids (and can also do so for some solids under certain conditions) at well below the vaporization temperature, perhaps you have not noticed that water at room temperature will evaporate, remember: molten is a liquid. This is why mercury spills are such a problem, and why several years ago laboratories (schools etc.) had to incur expense having floors lifted and mercury removed by special vacuum cleaners, and using mercury vapour detectors to variety 'safe' levels. A few weeks ago I had to clean a spill caused by a broken thermometer from a cupboard. -- Ian G8ILZ Article: 51351 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: litle ole me <""nobody \"@ nowhere.com"> Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 01:33:18 GMT Prometheus wrote: > In article <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, litle ole me > writes >> >> except that there is NO LEAD CONTENT IN THE FLUX FUMES. >> Lead does not vaporize until much higher temperature than soldering >> temperatures... > > There will be lead in the fumes; molecules regularly detach themselves > and float off into the air from liquids (and can also do so for some > solids under certain conditions) at well below the vaporization > temperature, perhaps you have not noticed that water at room temperature > will evaporate, remember: molten is a liquid. This is why mercury spills > are such a problem, and why several years ago laboratories (schools > etc.) had to incur expense having floors lifted and mercury removed by > special vacuum cleaners, and using mercury vapour detectors to variety > 'safe' levels. A few weeks ago I had to clean a spill caused by a broken > thermometer from a cupboard. so, what protection should we use when soldering? how much lead would have been ingested? Having worked in a production and engineering environment for many years, I would think that were there any risk of lead in solder fumes, there would be HUGE guidelines from the EPA. but, there are none. we had fans and filters to control the flux fumes, which were quite pungent.) in your logic above, chemicals that are far fro similar are being equated and their properties simplified. water and mercury are liquid at room temp. mercury, like lead does not evaporate at soldering temperatures. (for ref: vapor pressure of water at 100C is 760 MM, or > 100X the below. try putting 37 C or even 200C in the math below, and I think the answer will be that the vap press is minute and unmeasurable.) _____ http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v26/i6/p851_1 Vapor pressure of lead, 1118° to 1235°C was found to vary from 5.70 mm to 19.70 mm in good agreement with the equation log10p(mm)=-10372/T-log10T-11.35, which also fits the best results of Egerton at lower temperatures. The heat of vaporization of lead at its melting point is calculated to be 46,300 cal. The chemical constant comes out -1.40 which is close to the value -1.59 computed from the quantum theory of monatomic gases. ____ no one I know solders at 1118 degrees c or higher? water has a vapor pressure FAR lower than lead. please realize that the vapor pressure of lead and the vapor pressure of water are NOT close in value. by the above logic, my desk is evaporating. I know ice can evaporate. how do can the the number of formica molecules floating out of the kitchen counter be calculated or measured? here is a bit from wikipedia. Vapor pressure is the pressure of a vapor in equilibrium with its non-vapor phases. Most often the term is used to describe a liquid's tendency to evaporate. It is the tendency of molecules and atoms to escape from a liquid or a solid. At any given temperature, for a particular substance, there is a pressure at which the vapor of that substance is in equilibrium with its liquid or solid forms. This is the equilibrium vapor pressure or saturation vapor pressure of that substance at that temperature. The term vapor pressure is often understood to mean the saturation vapor pressure. A substance with a high vapor pressure at normal temperatures is often referred to as volatile. The higher the vapor pressure of a material at a given temperature, the lower the boiling point. the end. Article: 51352 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "Jim GM4DHJ" References: Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Message-ID: Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 07:26:07 GMT what about resin lung then ? ....... Article: 51353 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: Walt Davidson Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 12:07:45 +0100 Message-ID: References: On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 07:26:07 GMT, "Jim GM4DHJ" wrote: >what about resin lung then ? ....... Not as bad as phossy jaw! :-) 73 de Wlat -- Walt Davidson Email: g3nyy @despammed.com Article: 51354 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: "Roger" Subject: Re: What's the story on solder these days? Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:46:07 -0500 Message-ID: References: <1154248309.078278.68630@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <44cdc654$0$635$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk> <44cdcad3$0$2964$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <1154342621.057977.98710@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> <44ce365d$0$2960$834e42db@reader.greatnowhere.com> <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net> There may not have been any EPA guidelines in the past ... but there are now. I see them every day, all solder stations in our plant haves mandated exhaust facilities - even labs. Particulates are more of a concern rather than vapors. Roger "litle ole me" <""nobody \"@ nowhere.com"> wrote in message news:ytxAg.385$NX2.64@newsreading01.news.tds.net... > Prometheus wrote: >> In article <3PHzg.306$NX2.2@newsreading01.news.tds.net>, litle ole me >> writes >>> >>> except that there is NO LEAD CONTENT IN THE FLUX FUMES. >>> Lead does not vaporize until much higher temperature than soldering >>> temperatures... >> >> There will be lead in the fumes; molecules regularly detach themselves >> and float off into the air from liquids (and can also do so for some >> solids under certain conditions) at well below the vaporization >> temperature, perhaps you have not noticed that water at room temperature >> will evaporate, remember: molten is a liquid. This is why mercury spills >> are such a problem, and why several years ago laboratories (schools etc.) >> had to incur expense having floors lifted and mercury removed by special >> vacuum cleaners, and using mercury vapour detectors to variety 'safe' >> levels. A few weeks ago I had to clean a spill caused by a broken >> thermometer from a cupboard. > so, what protection should we use when soldering? how much lead would > have been ingested? > > Having worked in a production and engineering environment for many years, > I would think that were there any risk of lead in solder fumes, there > would be HUGE guidelines from the EPA. but, there are none. we had fans > and filters to control the flux fumes, which were quite pungent.) > > in your logic above, chemicals that are far fro similar are being equated > and their properties simplified. water and mercury are liquid at room > temp. > mercury, like lead does not evaporate at soldering temperatures. > > (for ref: vapor pressure of water at 100C is 760 MM, or > 100X the below. > try putting 37 C or even 200C in the math below, and I think the answer > will be that the vap press is minute and unmeasurable.) > > _____ > http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v26/i6/p851_1 > Vapor pressure of lead, 1118° to 1235°C was found to vary from 5.70 mm to > 19.70 mm in good agreement with the equation > log10p(mm)=-10372/T-log10T-11.35, which also fits the best results of > Egerton at lower temperatures. The heat of vaporization of lead at its > melting point is calculated to be 46,300 cal. The chemical constant comes > out -1.40 which is close to the value -1.59 computed from the quantum > theory of monatomic gases. > ____ > > no one I know solders at 1118 degrees c or higher? > > water has a vapor pressure FAR lower than lead. please realize that the > vapor pressure of lead and the vapor pressure of water are NOT close in > value. > > > by the above logic, my desk is evaporating. I know ice can evaporate. > how do can the the number of formica molecules floating out of the kitchen > counter be calculated or measured? > > here is a bit from wikipedia. > > Vapor pressure is the pressure of a vapor in equilibrium with its > non-vapor phases. Most often the term is used to describe a liquid's > tendency to evaporate. It is the tendency of molecules and atoms to escape > from a liquid or a solid. At any given temperature, for a particular > substance, there is a pressure at which the vapor of that substance is in > equilibrium with its liquid or solid forms. This is the equilibrium vapor > pressure or saturation vapor pressure of that substance at that > temperature. The term vapor pressure is often understood to mean the > saturation vapor pressure. A substance with a high vapor pressure at > normal temperatures is often referred to as volatile. The higher the vapor > pressure of a material at a given temperature, the lower the boiling > point. > > > > the end. Article: 51355 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: internetprofiteering@gmail.com Subject: Can someone please help me with this ??? Date: 4 Aug 2006 20:02:33 -0700 Message-ID: <1154746953.598838.44440@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> It appears from this picture (vintage 1950s/1960s)... Click on this link to see the picture: http://careo.elearning.ubc.ca/wiki?ShortPromo2 ...that Tim Berners-Lee, the guy who invented the World Wide Web, was or is still an Amateur Radio Operator. Does anyone know what his call is or was? Please reply to: internetprofiteering@gmail.com Thanks, Bill http://InternetProfiteering.com Article: 51356 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: 5b4az@qsl.net Subject: Frequency discriminator algorithms? Date: 5 Aug 2006 06:26:47 -0700 Message-ID: <1154784407.838742.219720@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> Hi all, I had been searching the 'net for simple digital frequency discriminator algorithms (fm detection, eg for SSTV etc) but have not really found any suitable info. In the mean time though, I figured out what I think is a simple solution to this problem and tried it, using my computer's sound system to digitize a sinewave signal from my FT847 rig (tuned to a MW BC station in CW mode and using the narrowest filters). The results were mixed, with an accuracy of about 1% in many readings but with a small portion of them having large errors > 50%. The errors seemed to be spaced at 1/4 of an audio cycle and near peaks and zero's. But before I speculate on possible causes, I would like to take the liberty to describe this algorithm so that experienced DSP boffins might first judge the viability and/or correctnes of it. In a stream of digitized samples of a sine wave, the value s of a sample is given by s = V * sin(F) where V is the peak amplitude and F the phase of the sine wave at the moment the sample was taken. If we take three consecutive samples, s0, s1, s2, we can form the following set of simultaneous equations (by expanding sin(F+dF) & sin(F-dF)). 1. s0 = V*sin(F-dF) = V*{sin(F)*cos(dF)-cos(F)*sin(dF)} 2. s1 = V*sin(F) 3. s2 = V*sin(F+df) = V*{sin(F)*cos(dF)+cos(F)*sin(dF)} where dF is the phase difference between successive samples. By adding 1. and 3. we have: 4. s0+s2 = V*2*sin(F)*cos(dF) By substituting sin(F) from 2. we have: 5. s0+s2 = V*2*(s1/V)*cos(dF) So finally solving 5. for dF we have: 6. dF = arc cos{(s0+s2)/(2*s1)} The frequency f of the sampled signal can then be estimated by: 7. f = (df/2pi)*S or f = S*arc cos{(s0+s2)/(2*s1)}/2pi (2pi=2*pi) I tried this formula by feeding it with calculated samples and it worked fine. In practice, the expected problems I had were division by zero when s1 = 0 and failure of the acos() C function when (s0+s2)/2s1 > 1. But there were inaccuracies in he results as I mentioned near the peaks and zeros since it seems errors in sampling by the dsp distorted the relationship between consecutive samples. I am using Linux and an AC97 type on-board sound system and I already know there are some bugs in the ALSA (the Linux sound systems project) drivers. This is especially obvious when sampling at a non-native DSP rate (other than 48 Khz / 16-bit linear) where the sound driver has to resample the output. I would be greatful for any input on the "legitimacy" of the above derived formula and/or its weak points, so that I can furher study the output of the DSP for possible errors (not very easy ;-)). My apologies for a longish and/or possibly boring article! 73's de "Nick" 5B4AZ http://5b4az.mattsnetwork.co.uk/ Article: 51357 of rec.radio.amateur.digital.misc From: Cathy@noosempty.net Subject: Mega promos dans notre sex shop Date: 06 Aug 2006 11:53:42 GMT Message-ID: <44d5d845$0$831$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr>
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