From london@mercury.interpath.comThu Jul 25 14:22:29 1996 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 14:25:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Lawrence London - Personal Account To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Subject: Soil testing replies (fwd) : Venaura Farm - Organic Market Vegetable Gardens - CSA : Organic Gardening/Urban-Rural Permaculture Information Resources : http://www.interpath.net/~london - london@mercury.interpath.net : http://sunsite.unc.edu/london - london@sunsite.unc.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 11:46:36 EDT From: Francois Quesnel To: london@mercury.interpath.com Subject: Soil testing replies The following is the compilation of the replies I got from sannetters concerning soil testing in the sustainable context. Hope you find it useful. Francois Quesnel From: CDCRAMER@aol.com A few years back, Dr. John Doran, USDA-ARS and Dr. Marianne Sarrantonio, then with the Rodale Institute Research Center, were working on soil quality tests that motivated farmers or ag professionals could conduct in the field. They included things like infiltration rates, bulk density, water-holding capacity, respiration, etc. See The New Farm magazine (Jan. '94, Feb. '94, and May/June '94) for more information. Or contact Doran at jdoran@unlinfo.unl.edu Craig Cramer 26 Van Hoesen St. Cortland, NY 13045 USA cdcramer@aol.com 607/753-8925 "The water won't ever clear up 'til you get the hogs out of the creek." -- Jim Hightower From: Pam Murray Actually, Craig, John Doran has developed a soil test kit. I don't know details about how to order it, but as you pointed out, one can e-mail him for the info. Pam Murray, Coordinator Center for Grassland Studies and Center for Sustainable Agricultural Systems PO Box 830949 University of Nebraska Lincoln, NE 68583-0949 phone: 402-472-9383 fax: 402-472-4104 e-mail: csas001@unlvm.unl.edu From: Bill Duesing <71042.2023@CompuServe.COM> You might lool into the paper chromatography soil test done by biodynamic people. From: rdixon@cyberstation.net (robert Dixon) Subject: Re: Soil testing Francois, you make a very good point that can be extended in the following way: Is there a simple series of "field Tests" that can be used by farmers and organic inspectors to assess the biological activity of the soil. My experience as an organic inspector in northern British Columbia and Alberta makes me feel there is a real need for this kind of simple test. Organic farmers are committed to building up the soil life and trying to enhance the biological activity of the soil so as to create an optimum environment for growing healthy crops. How does the farmer know from year to year whether what they are doing is accomplishing this or is really subtly depleting the soil? All organic certification standards require growers to be farming in such a way that the soil life is supported and organic inspectors are supposed to verify this during the annual inspection. How are we supposed to do that? I have spent a fair bit of time trying to discover some simple rules of thumb that can be used. Much work is being done by various groups. They are looking at things like water infiltration rates, bulk density, carbon: nitrogen ratios, measuring soil respiration rates as an indirect measurment of soil biological activity, wet aggregate stability etc. etc. These are all well and good but many farmers have a hard time relating these measurements to what they are actually doing to their soil in the way of rotations, cultivation and addition of materials like compost, manure etc.etc. I like to grab a handfull of soil and smell it, squeeze it to see if it holds together, observe the colour, dig down a bit and see how far down you find a hardpan. You can also observe the weed communities, look at crops , previous yields etc. etc. These can give you a rough guide of the direction that the soil processes are taking and , along with soil tests, can provide some usefull information but I feel there is an urgent need for a more quantitative tests. What do you think about field capacity and water infiltration rates as an indirect measurment of whether the soil life is improving soil tilth, maintaining it or whether farming practices are destroying soil tilth? I would be very interested in your ideas on these matters. From: Gerry Walter Francois -- I'm a communications specialist/rural sociologist cooperating in a project called the Illinois Soil Quality Initiative. We've been gathering data on soil chemistry, biology and structure from 35 Illinois farms over two years, and have also been talking with farmers about how to make our findings meaningful and useful to them. I'll take a stab at a couple of your questions -- for more information, you might try contacting Michelle Wander in our Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences, who heads the ISQI project, at 217/333-9471. > Do organic or sustainable farmers and consultants feel the need >for other types of analysis? If yes, what kind? In our farmer focus groups and interviews, it's becoming pretty clear that farmers -- even relatively conventional farmers as well as organic and alternative farmers -- are interested in information about other soil qualities such as soil structure and biological activity IF (this is the proverbial "big if") some credible person or research can show them: 1) the relationship between changes in those soil qualities and salient measures of farm performance -- yield, environmental quality, labor efficiency and so on, and 2) how they can arrange their farming practices to affect those soil qualities in desirable ways. > > Are there any commercial labs out there that deal with those >alternative types of analysis? We're not aware of many commercial labs in Illinois gathering information about soil structure and biological activity, though there are some who can do a little of this. My guess is that without the resesarch to furnish the information alluded to above, there's not a lot of credible basis on which to derive recommendations from such analyses. The labs thus can tell farmers the numbers but not what they mean -- not a comfortable position to be in, and not a service many will want to pay for. Also, most of these alternative soil quality measures vary over the medium to long term, so they're not amenable to quick soil amendment the way chemistry is. So there may be no product or service to sell along with the information. Dr. Wander spoke with commercial applicators about ISQI last winter and faced a lot of apathy and scepticism, probably for just these reasons. On the other hand, farmers want this information if etc.... -- and they want it from commercial sources if they can get it that way. ISQI initially aimed to develop testing methods farmers could use themselves, but the farmers tell us they don't have time to use such things and would rather have someone else gather the info along with the soil chemistry samples. > > I do realize that part of what it means to farm sustainably is >to deal with the complexity of soil-plant relationships and that >simple solutions like looking up a soil test result in a table to >decide how much phosphorus to apply are hardly applicable here. > > It seems to me that because of the complexity of the system and >the lack of analytical tools to better understand it, a lot of the >decision making process relies on the farmer's or consultant's own >experience. You bet. The farmers I talk to only use soil-test results as guidelines anyway -- they still make their own decisions, and the soil test is just part of the information that goes into those decisions. If the soil test says one piece of ground needs more P but the farmer's got some other plans for that ground in a couple of years, he'll apply (or have applied) what he wants rather than what the lab says he needs. I'm continually in awe at how much more sophisticated the farmers' thinking about soil, crop and farm management is than the models that researchers usually use. They're typically balancing many more "variables" (or goals) than our statistical models can meanigfully handle. > > This is where I believe there might be room for innovation. >What do you think? Definitely! ISQI is trying to assess the accuracy/reliability of some soil quality measures proposed by others. I think there's still room to assess the reliability of "folk" measures, too. The task then is to determine how to make the results of these measures meaningful, practical and, if we're going to get commercial soil and crop specialists involved, profitable. I hope this stimulates your thinking at least a little. Contact Dr. Wander if you want to learn more about ISQI -- we've also prepared a summary paper about our first year's activities that I can send you if you're interested. Another source of info might be Dr. Deborah Allan at the University of Minnesota in St. Paul -- she and the Land Stewardship Project have been doing work in SW Minnesota that's incorporating quality-of-life measures into the equation. Gerry Walter """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Gerry Walter Human and Community Development University of Illinois 59 Mumford 1301 W. Gregory Dr. Urbana IL 61801 217/333-9429 217/244-7503 fax """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" From: Bobby Whittemore Hi, In your post to sanet you write: >>>>> Are there any commercial labs out there that deal with thosealternative types of analysis? I do realize that part of what it means to farm sustainably is to deal with the complexity of soil-plant relationships and that simple solutions like looking up a soil test result in a table to decide how much phosphorus to apply are hardly applicable here. It seems to me that because of the complexity of the system and the lack of analytical tools to better understand it, a lot of the decision making process relies on the farmer's or consultant's own experience.<<<<<< I have yet to hear of any U.S. labs that are testing for all of the minor elements, although I have heard that there are some in New Zealand. The main problem is that a soil test for minor elements is unreliable. The better way to determine the requirements for a growing plant is to forage test the growing plant instead of the soil. It really doesn't matter how much mineral is in the soil if it is unavailable to the plant. Test the plant, and supplement the soil accordingly. Vaughan Jones, a consultant in Hamilton New Zealand has done a lot of work with farmers using forage testing for minerals, and has developed computer programs for determining the appropriate mineral application rates based on the forage test results. His address is: Vaughan Jones Hamilton Waikato North Island New Zealand jonesv@wave.co.nz (Vaughan Jones) As you indicate, his programs are based on his own experiences as a consultant, but isn't that how science grows? Sincerely, Bobby Whittemore Edgewood Farms Columbia, VA email: bwhittemore@earthlink.net From: Raymond Weil Subject: Re: Soil testing Dear Francois, I found you query to be very timely and interesting. My lab is currently working on developing a test for active organic matter that is mean to reflect management effects on such proerties as tilth, mineralization, biomass activity, etc. I would very much appreciate recieving a summary or copy of the responses you collect to your question below. The results may help guide us in our work. To this point we are working with a wide range of soils and farmers, but our results are still very preliminary. Thanks in advance. Merci. Ray Ray R. Weil Professor of Soil Science 1103 H.J. Patterson Hall University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 USA telephone: 301 405 1314 FAX: 301 314 9041 e-mail: rw17@umail.umd.edu From: SaaimanP@sabc.co.za (Petrus J. Saaiman) Subject: Re: Soil testing Francois, Just a personal observation: Soil testing has NO PLACE in eco farming. We do not even relate to the chemical compounds found in soil. One look at it in your hand, and the experienced farmer will decide what compost/treatment is needed. A study of the plants on the site tells a lot about the soil - certain plants indicate soil qualities by their prescence. I am no farmer, but I hope to become one soon! My remarks stem from observing those who know. Refer to books on Bio Dynamics - they are the best. Have fun! Petrus From: joel b gruver Bonjour Francois, I am a grad student at the U of MD involved with developing new soil test methods for quantifying "soil quality". Our basic approach is to measure the "active/labile" fraction of soil organic matter... One of our fundamental goals is to provide farmers/land managers with tools that allow them to assess their level of success at sustaining soil quality. I'll post more later... Joel Gruver From: "Grace J Gershuny" The most advanced in terms of organic/ecological oriented soil testing & consulting operations I know is Woods End Lab, based in Maine. Will Brinton has developed some cutting edge testing for soil biological activity and compost maturity. Contact them at: Old Rome Rd., Rt. 2, Box 1850, Mt. Vernon, ME 04352 (207) 293-2457 fax: (207) 293-2488 Grace Gershuny USDA, National Organic Program From: pmillner@asrr.arsusda.gov There are several other small companies in addition to Woods End that are emerging to fill this need. One I just recently spoke with is "Soil Control Lab" 42 Hangar Way, Stsonville, CA 95076. Mr. Frank Shields. Other I know who have focussed on expanding their capabilities to specifically include organic materials include: A & L Eastern Agricultural Laboratories 7621 Whitepine Road, Richmond, VA 232347-2296 tel: 804-743-9401 BioCheck Loabs, 1015 Garden Lake Parkeway, Toledo, OH tel: 419-385-9585 Bio Cycle Magazine also shows other in their advertisements. Part of the answer to your very good questions is that often there is no single lab that will provide (without subcontracted work) all of the analyses that would be beneficial to practioners of sustainable/alternative farming. Indeed, some of the important testable parameters, especially the biological ones, have yet to be agreed upon in the research community and standardized to the point of being typically available to non-research, commercial testing services. This is currently a big impediment for companies to offer such tests. Pat Millner Soil Microbial Systems Lab BARC, Bldg. 318, Rm 108 Beltsville, MD. 20705-2350 pmillner@asrr.arsusda.gov From: Bill Fiebig Francois.. You should contact Dr. Laurie Drinkwater at the Rodale Institute in Pennsylvania. She has developed a "soil testing kit" for Rodale's partners who have been using regenerative practices to monitor soil health as they evolve away from conventional farming practices. Her contact numbers are :tel (610)683-1437, fax (610)683-8548. Address: 611 Siegfriedale Road, Kutztown, PA 19530. Best of luck. Regards, Bill Fiebig, Ph.D. Rodale Institute