From: Steven R. Lo Vullo (doulos@chorus.net)
Date: Sat Jan 06 2001 - 22:35:02 EST
On 1/6/01 5:35 PM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:
> I have to say that I am surprised and even disturbed at the vehemence of
> this attack. Although in the opening statement it's stated that the
> gauntlet here flung out, so to speak, should not be taken personally;
> indeed, it seems to be directed to all those who would continue to hold to
> the notion that there really IS an intended nuance of difference between
> AGAPAW and FILEW in John 21.
Carl and list
I honestly didn't mean this as an "attack." But after rereading my post I
can definitely see how it could be taken thus. I apologize to Steve (and to
all who may have been offended) for my ill-advised tone and will take care
in the future to think about how my comments may be perceived in an e-mail.
> I've said that I think there's a growing preponderance of people holding that
> the two verbs are really pretty much synonymous, but that there are some whose
> opinions I respect that I know hold otherwise,and also that I don't think a
> majority opinion ought ever to be equated with the TRUTH, even if it's not to
> be sneezed at.
To be fair, I don't think I suggested that the majority opinion ought to be
equated with the truth.
> What particularly surprises me here is the challenge to show how the view
> that AGAPAW and FILEW in John 21 are NOT synonymous could be FALSIFIED.
In the context of my post the issue of falsifiability was brought up in
connection with those who would always draw a sharp distinction between
these two verbs, not just in John 21. (See below.)
> Surely it has NOT been argued that the two verbs are NEVER to be
> differentiated from each other--that they ALWAYS are identical in meaning.
No, that hasn't been argued.
> And so, IF there is ever or can ever be a differentiation between the two,
> it seems to me that the burden of proof rests upon those who want to insist
> that the verbs really are altogether synonymous in the context where they
> are used in this question and answer sequence. It seems to me that a pretty
> good argument has been made that the two verbs are "more or less"
> synonymous in this passage, but I hardly think that we ought to consider
> that an airtight argument has been presented.
Yes, they are "more or less" synonymous. I am in no way arguing that these
words are always "altogether synonymous." But I need to point out again that
in context my comments about falsifiability were related not just to John
21, but to the evidence for these two words as a whole. My point to Steve
was that many (most?) advocates of this position see the importance (or at
least the desirability) of drawing a pretty sharp distinction between these
words in the defense of their position on this issue. If this could be
proven it would make the discussion of their use in John 21 moot. The last
time we had this discussion there were those who both on list and off
contended that there was no significant semantic overlap between the two,
and that AGAPAW always meant something like "self-sacrificing love" while
PHILEW did not and could not have that meaning. After pointing out passages
where AGAPAW could not have this meaning, and even parallel passages in the
Gospels where AGAPAW was used in one Gospel and FILEW in the other, there
were responses that frankly stunned me with respect to what I perceived as
the special pleading involved in them. That is what convinced me that there
was practically no evidence that could not be explained away by the
advocates of this position. In fact, I vividly remember Carl, in response to
one of these assertions, jokingly saying something to the effect that AGAPAW
always meant "self-sacrificing love" except in those cases when it didn't!
> Finally, while it might be nice if some consensus could be reached on some
> of the issues that we discuss on B-Greek, I am personally more interested
> in seeing thoughtful discussion of opposing viewpoints rather than the
> determination of a final verdict on any or all of the questions of the
> meaning of Biblical Greek texts.
If I presented my view in a way that sounded like I meant it as "a final
verdict" on this issue, please forgive me. I certainly don't have the final
verdict on anything.
Steve Lo Vullo,
Madison, WI
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