From: Carl W. Conrad (cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu)
Date: Sun Apr 07 2002 - 08:56:39 EDT
At 11:25 PM -0800 4/6/02, Glenn Blank wrote:
>Col 3.8
>NUNI DE APOQESQE KAI hUMEIS TA PANTA
>
>Iver wrote,
>>although I do have a different perspective on part of it.
>
>I understand, Iver, why your parsing of the syntax would give you that
>perspective, but I am having trouble seeing how that perspective fits the
>context and the other occurrences of KAI hUMEIS in Paul's writings. (See
>"A3" below) But meanwhile, I concur with your comments leading up to that
>point.
>
>>KAI signifies "in addition to" and involves some kind of comparison.
>
>Yes, this is what I had in mind -- unless of course it is a coordinating
>conjunction, as I have suggested in (C) below, in which case, it is "in
>addition to" but not necessarily a comparison.
>
>>Fronted positions or context can then in conjunction with the independent
>>pronoun signify contrast.
>
>Yes
>
>>In 3:8 NUNI contrasts "life now" with "life before", both by its lexical
>>content and first position.
>
>Yes, I am with you so far. (Except that the majority of times NUNI occurs
>in Paul's writings, it is at the beginning of the clause, suggesting that
>rather than prominence, this may be the normative position for him)
>
>>That APOQESQE occurs before the pronoun subject indicates in my
>>understanding of word order that the lexical content "discard, put away" is
>>relatively more important than hUMEIS. The hearers know that Paul is
>talking
>>to them, so hUMEIS is understood, but the key point is what they should do.
>
>Yes. Of course, since "you" is understood, just its being explicitly
>stated in
>hUMEIS places some importance on it, as you mention next:
>
>>hUMEIS indicates the focus [is shifting to]** the Colossians and the
>>contrast to the "sons of disobedience".
>
>Yes.
>
>A) >KAI indicates that the Colossians, too, like other Christians, need to
>put
>>away such things.
>
>A1) This parapraph alongside the previous paragraph is where I lose you --
>the two points seem to contradict each other. That is, hUMEIS indicates a
>shift of focus from "the sons of disobedience" while KAI although governing
>hUMEIS, has no relation to "the sons of disobedience." In each of the other
>22 passages I cited, the group of people hUMEIS shifts focus from is the
>same group of people that KAI draws a parallel with.
>
>So then, if it is as you say, that KAI governs hUMEIS, it is true that
>
>>the comparison must be between the
>>Colossians and other people.
>
>A2) But the only other people being discussed in the context are "the sons
>of disobedience"
>
>But as you say,
>
>>Those other people cannot be the sons of
>>obedience as it was in v. 7,
>
>Because "the sons of disobedience" have *not* put off those things. So what
>other group of people is KAI drawing a relationship with?
>
>>presumably other Christians like Paul, his
>>companions and other believers the Colossians know about.
>
>A3) But there is no mention of these other groups of Christians in the
>context. The closest context of another Christian modeling a behavior with
>which this parallel could possibly be made is way back in 2.5, and Paul's
>behavior there is just a vague parallel to the notion of putting off. By
>contrast, in each of the other 22 instances I cited, the KAI hUMEIS
>parallels a group of people in the immediately preceding context.
>
>>That group is called the chosen ones in v. 12.
>
>But in v. 12, it is not another group of people -- it is still "you." (In
>addition, can this use of KAI have a kataphoric reference?)
>
>So my conclusion is that although KAI normally governs the word that follows
>it, it does not govern hUMEIS in this context.
>
>B) The context does in fact suggest that TA PANTA is the constituent
>governed by KAI -- Paul twice before listed things the Colossians were to be
>rid of: be dead to the rudiments of the world (2.20); mortify your earthly
>members, fornication, uncleanness, etc. (3.5); put off also all these,
>anger, wrath, etc. (3.8)
>
>B1) You have posited often that elements are moved forward in a clause in
>order to raise their prominence. Are there any limitations to what can be
>moved and how far? Specifically, is there a restriction on an element being
>moved in such a way that separates it from what it governs? (That, BTW, is
>a question Brian Tucker may want to look at in preparing his lecture on GB
>and Koine -- do the restraints on movement outside of C-Command in GB
>accurately predict what kinds of word order are found in NTG?)
>
>B2) So what I am suggesting is that KAI has been moved for prominence to a
>place in front of hUMEIS. Is there precedent for such a suggestion? 1Th
>2:13 seems so.
>
>KAI DIA TOUTO KAI hHMEIS EUCARISTOUMEN TWi QEWi ADIALEIPTWS
>
>This seems like exactly the same structure in the same kind of context. You
>have KAI preceding hHMEIS. But what would hHMEIS be being compared to? Who
>else in the context is giving thanks? On the other hand, if we suppose that
>KAI governs EUXARISTOUMEN, then it makes sense in context -- There is a
>whole series of "we" doing something -- "we were gentle among you" (v 7);
>"we behaved justly among you" (v 10); "we exhorted and comforted you" (v
>11); "we *also* give thanks to God" (v 13).
On the contrary, I think there's a contrast here too between the pronominal
references to hUMEIS and that to hHMEIS.
>C) A third option may be that KAI in 3.8 is not governing any single
>constituent within the clause but the entire clause, with part of the clause
>getting fronted before the conjunction:
>
>NUNI DE {APOQESQE} KAI { } hUMEIS TA PANTA
Quite frankly, I still think it would need to be demonstrated pretty
convincingly that KAI in the sense of "also, too, in addition" ever stands
elsewhere than immediately preceding what it governs.
--
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
Most months:: 1647 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad@artsci.wustl.edu OR cwconrad@ioa.com
WWW: http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/
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