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From: DotarSojat@aol.com

Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 00:50:15 -0400

To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

Subject: starship-design: Re: Re: The Size of the Problem Sender: owner-
starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: DotarSojat@aol.com

At 09:58 8/5/96, Kelly Starks wrote:

>At 3:07 PM 8/4/96, DotarSojat wrote:

>>
SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem

>>The minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1
kg to a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/deceleration
becomes

>>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . 

>>IMPLICATIONS

>>....
>>Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase in transit time
are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable" size, to only a
few USEs, say. 

>>....
>>A few plausible ways around the problem...come to mind: 

>>....

>>The group might think of others.

>A few come to mind. ;)

>1) Don't use antimatter.

And use at least 250 times the mass of energy fuel? :( 

>2) Don't try for a constant 1 g acceleration for the full durration of the
flight.
>....

While I believe Kelly had a coast phase in mind, his comment suggested to
me trying values of constant acceleration/ deceleration less than 1 g.
With some improvements in the cal- culation from my 4/4/96 memo to
the Group, I get the following reductions in energy requirement, in USE per
kilogram of burnout mass, as the accel/decel value is decreased from 1 g
(included in the table are the peak proper velocity Uend in lt-yr/yr, the
trip time in yr and the mass ratio for the acceleration phase alone):

Accel/decel Uend Energy/Mbo trip time mass ratio(accel) 
(g)	(lt-yr/yr) (USE/kg)	(yr)
Distance = 8 (actually 7.941) lt-yr
1.0	5.000	1.0510*	4.480	15.11
Distance = 4.35 lt-yr (alpha Centauri)
1.0	3.088	0.4067	3.576	10.58
0.9	2.851	0.3476	3.810	10.03
0.8	2.611	0.2925	4.087	9.47
0.7	2.369	0.2415	4.421	8.91
0.6	2.124	0.1946	4.835	8.35
0.5	1.872	0.1518	5.366	7.79
0.4	1.613	0.1132	6.083	7.22
0.3633	1.516	0.1000	6.417	7.01
0.3	1.342	0.0786	7.128	6.65
0.2	1.049	0.0483	8.867	6.08
0.1	0.707	0.0220	12.751	5.50
0.0476	0.475	0.0100	18.653	5.19
-----------
*was 1.055 in my 8/4/96 memo.

A plot of energy vs trip time shows an elbow at about 0.5 or 0.4 g, where
additional expense in energy starts to reach diminishing returns in
reduction in trip time. The point at 0.3633 g for the alpha Centauri trip
represents a reduction in USE/kg by about an order of magnitude from the
example trip in my 8/4/96 memo. The point at 0.0476 g (for alpha
Centauri) represents two orders of magnitude reduction, but at a signif-
icant increase in trip time (to 18.653 yr). 

Rex


P.S. For the record, I include below the Fortran program that did the
calculations (incidentally, I regard a Fortran program as essentially not
much more than an ASCII rendering of the equations):

PROGRAM TRIP	!8/11/96
101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Acceleration (gs) = ) 102 FORMAT(2X, F8.4, F8.3)
103 FORMAT(2X, F5.3, 4F8.4, F8.3, F8.4, F8.4, F7.2) 
DIST = 4.35
XACC = 0.5 * DIST
ETA = 1.
2 CONTINUE
WRITE(*,101)
READ(*,*) AG
IF(AG .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99
ACC = 1.0324 * AG
UEND = SQRT(ACC * XACC * (ACC * XACC + 2.)) GAMEND = SQRT(1. +
UEND*UEND)
VEND = UEND/GAMEND
THETA = LOG(UEND + GAMEND)	!asinh(Uend)
TACC = THETA/ACC
X1 = 0.05
X2 = X1
1 CONTINUE
X3 = X2
X2 = X1
X1 = X1 + 0.01
GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - X1*X1)
R = 1.01
IF(X1 .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA*(GAMEX-1.+ETA)/(ETA*GAMEX*X1)) Y3 = Y2
Y2 = Y1
Y1 = (GAMEND - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1. + ETA)/((R - 1.) * ETA * &	(GAMEX -
1.))
IF(Y1 .LT. Y2 .AND. X1 .GT. 0.1) THEN
A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/
&	((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2))
B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2)
XOPT = -B/(2.*A)
GO TO 3
END IF
GO TO 1
3 CONTINUE
OPTVEXH = XOPT
OPTUEXH = OPTVEXH/SQRT(1. - OPTVEXH*OPTVEXH) GEXHOPT = SQRT(1. +
OPTUEXH*OPTUEXH)
ROPT = EXP(THETA * (GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/(ETA * GEXHOPT * &	OPTVEXH))
EFFMAX = (GAMEND - 1.)*(GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/((ROPT - 1.) * &	ETA *
(GEXHOPT - 1.))
URATIO = UEND/OPTUEXH
AMMBO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA) AMMI = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.*
EFFMAX * ETA * ROPT) WRITE(*,103) UEND, VEND, OPTVEXH, OPTUEXH,
EFFMAX, URATIO, &	AMMBO, AMMI, ROPT
ROVER = ROPT * ROPT
FRAM = AMMBO/(ROPT - 1.)
OVAMMBO = FRAM * (ROVER - 1.)
USE = OVAMMBO/51.47
TTRIP = 2. * TACC
WRITE(*,102) USE, TTRIP
GO TO 2
99 STOP
END



=============================================================

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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:20:03 -0500

To: DotarSojat@aol.com

From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Subject: Re: starship-design: Re: Re: The Size of the Problem 
Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu
Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 

At 12:50 AM 8/12/96, DotarSojat@aol.com wrote: 
>At 09:58 8/5/96, Kelly Starks wrote:

>>At 3:07 PM 8/4/96, DotarSojat wrote:

>>>
SUBJECT: The Size of the Problem

>>>The minimum energy requirement to create the antimatter to deliver 1
kg to a distance of 8 lt-yr at 1-g continuous acceleration/deceleration
becomes

>>>54.3 kg am / 51.47 kg am/USE = 1.055 USE . 

>>>IMPLICATIONS

>>>....
>>>Orders of magnitude reduction in payload and increase in transit time
are required to reduce the energy problem to a "manageable" size, to only a
few USEs, say. 

>>>....
>>>A few plausible ways around the problem...come to mind: 

>>>....

>>>The group might think of others.

>>A few come to mind. ;)

>>1) Don't use antimatter.

>And use at least 250 times the mass of energy fuel? :( 

The problem you listed was the difficulty in manufacturing (not to
mention storing) the "fuel". Given that mining and using more conventional
fuels (like Lithium, duterium, etc..) don't have the heavy power costs and
system complexity problems. Hell yes I'ld rather have hundreds of times
the fuel weight! (Obviously due to the weight of the fuel you'ld need more
than 250 times as much, but it would be a lot easier to carry!) 

Thought. What is the relative weight of an Anti-matter tank to the weight
of the anti-matter? Would its weight added to the ship start outweighing
the advantages of the lighter fuel? Also you would need to carry (and
store) a full round trip worth of anti-matter since you couldn't refuel in
the target system.

>>2) Don't try for a constant 1 g acceleration for the full durration of the
flight.
>>....

>While I believe Kelly had a coast phase in mind,--- 

True. The higher speed and longer burn times both dramatically increase
fuel consumption. (Well beyond what seems technically feasable.) Also... 

>-- his comment suggested to me trying values of constant acceleration/
deceleration less than 1 g. With some improvements in the cal- culation
from my 4/4/96 memo to the Group, I get the following reductions in
energy requirement, in USE per kilogram of burnout mass, as the
accel/decel value is decreased from 1 g (included in the table are the peak
proper velocity Uend in lt-yr/yr, the trip time in yr and the mass ratio for
the acceleration phase alone):

>Accel/decel Uend Energy/Mbo trip time mass ratio(accel) 
>(g)	(lt-yr/yr) (USE/kg)	(yr)
>Distance = 8 (actually 7.941) lt-yr
>1.0	5.000	1.0510*	4.480	15.11
>Distance = 4.35 lt-yr (alpha Centauri)
>1.0	3.088	0.4067	3.576	10.58
>0.9	2.851	0.3476	3.810	10.03
>0.8	2.611	0.2925	4.087	9.47
>0.7	2.369	0.2415	4.421	8.91
>0.6	2.124	0.1946	4.835	8.35
>0.5	1.872	0.1518	5.366	7.79
>0.4	1.613	0.1132	6.083	7.22
>0.3633	1.516	0.1000	6.417	7.01
>0.3	1.342	0.0786	7.128	6.65
>0.2	1.049	0.0483	8.867	6.08
>0.1	0.707	0.0220	12.751	5.50
>0.0476	0.475	0.0100	18.653	5.19
>-----------
>*was 1.055 in my 8/4/96 memo.

>A plot of energy vs trip time shows an elbow at about 0.5 or 0.4 g, where
additional expense in energy starts to reach diminishing returns in
reduction in trip time. The point at 0.3633 g for the alpha Centauri trip
represents a reduction in USE/kg by about an order of magnitude from the
example trip in my 8/4/96 memo. The point at 0.0476 g (for alpha
Centauri) represents two orders of magnitude reduction, but at a signif-
icant increase in trip time (to 18.653 yr). 

>Rex

.... You'ld probably get shorter trip times if you had used the same power in
higher boosts at the start and end of the trips, with a coast phase in the
middle. Same power consumption, but higher average speed. 




>P.S. For the record, I include below the Fortran program that did the
calculations (incidentally, I regard a Fortran program as essentially not
much more than an ASCII rendering of the equations):

Thanks for including the code!

?? You still use goto's in your code! Bad Rex, Bad. Whap, whap, whap. ;) 


>PROGRAM TRIP	!8/11/96
>101 FORMAT(2X, 21H Acceleration (gs) = ) 102 FORMAT(2X, F8.4, F8.3)
>103 FORMAT(2X, F5.3, 4F8.4, F8.3, F8.4, F8.4, F7.2) 
>DIST = 4.35
>XACC = 0.5 * DIST
>ETA = 1.
>2 CONTINUE
>WRITE(*,101)
>READ(*,*) AG
>IF(AG .EQ. 0.) GO TO 99
>ACC = 1.0324 * AG
>UEND = SQRT(ACC * XACC * (ACC * XACC + 2.)) GAMEND = SQRT(1. +
UEND*UEND)
>VEND = UEND/GAMEND
>THETA = LOG(UEND + GAMEND)	!asinh(Uend)
>TACC = THETA/ACC
>X1 = 0.05
>X2 = X1
>1 CONTINUE
>X3 = X2
>X2 = X1
>X1 = X1 + 0.01
>GAMEX = 1./SQRT(1. - X1*X1)
>R = 1.01
>IF(X1 .GT. .05) R = EXP(THETA*(GAMEX-1.+ETA)/(ETA*GAMEX*X1)) Y3 = Y2
>Y2 = Y1
>Y1 = (GAMEND - 1.) * (GAMEX - 1. + ETA)/((R - 1.) * ETA * &	(GAMEX -
1.))
>IF(Y1 .LT. Y2 .AND. X1 .GT. 0.1) THEN
>A = ((Y1-Y2)*(X2-X3)-(Y2-Y3)*(X1-X2))/
>&	((X1*X1-X2*X2)*(X2-X3)-(X2*X2-X3*X3)*(X1-X2))
>B = ((Y1-Y2) - A*(X1*X1-X2*X2))/(X1-X2) XOPT = -B/(2.*A)
>GO TO 3
>END IF
>GO TO 1
>3 CONTINUE
>OPTVEXH = XOPT
>OPTUEXH = OPTVEXH/SQRT(1. - OPTVEXH*OPTVEXH) GEXHOPT = SQRT(1. +
OPTUEXH*OPTUEXH)
>ROPT = EXP(THETA * (GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/(ETA * GEXHOPT *
&	OPTVEXH))
>EFFMAX = (GAMEND - 1.)*(GEXHOPT - 1. + ETA)/((ROPT - 1.) * &	ETA *
(GEXHOPT - 1.))
>URATIO = UEND/OPTUEXH
>AMMBO = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.* EFFMAX * ETA) AMMI = (GAMEND - 1.)/(2.*
EFFMAX * ETA * ROPT) WRITE(*,103) UEND, VEND, OPTVEXH, OPTUEXH,
EFFMAX, URATIO, &	AMMBO, AMMI, ROPT
>ROVER = ROPT * ROPT
>FRAM = AMMBO/(ROPT - 1.)
>OVAMMBO = FRAM * (ROVER - 1.)
>USE = OVAMMBO/51.47
>TTRIP = 2. * TACC
>WRITE(*,102) USE, TTRIP
>GO TO 2
>99 STOP
>END


Kelly


------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
----

=============================================================

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Mime-Version: 1.0

Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:00:37 -0500

To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu, KellySt@aol.com,
sdudley@ix.netcom.com, 
schlegel@rmc1.crocker.com, JohnFrance@aol.com,
mark_jensen@cpqm.mail.saic.com, DTaylor648@aol.com,
Kryswalker@aol.com 
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Subject: starship-design: Software cycle Sender: owner-starship-
design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 

Software doesn't just appear on the shelves by magic. That program shink-
wrapped
inside the box along with the indecipherable manual and 12-paragraph
disclaimer
notice actually came to you by way of an elaborate path, through the most
rigid quality control on the planet. Here, shared for the
first time with the general public, are the inside details of the program
development cycle:

1. Programmer produces code he believes is bug-free. 2. Product is tested.
20 bugs are found. 3. Programmer fixes 10 of the bugs and explains to the
testing department 
that the other 10 aren't really bugs.
4. Testing department finds that five of the fixes didn't work and 
discovers 15 new bugs.
5. See 3.
6. See 4.
7. See 5.
8. See 6.
9. See 7.
10. See 8.
11. Due to marketing pressure and an extremely pre-mature product 
announcement based on over-optimistic programming schedule, the
product is released.
12. Users find 137 new bugs.
13. Original programmer, having cashed his royalty check, is nowhere to 
be found.
14. Newly-assembled programming team fixes almost all of the 137 bugs, 
but introduce 456 new ones.
15. Original programmer sends underpaid testing department a postcard 
from Fiji. Entire testing department quits. 16. Company is bought in a
hostile takeover by competitor using profits 
from their latest release, which had 783 bugs. 17. New CEO is brought in
by board of directors. He hires programmer to 
redo program from scratch.
18. Programmer produces code he believes is bug-free. 19. See step 2


------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
----

=============================================================


Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:21:43 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> 
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

Subject: starship-design: Software cycle 

I said that I'm not going to exercise any editorial control over the content
of postings to the starship-design list, but I will strongly encourage
starship-design list members to avoid sending non-topical material to the
list, like general humor postings. The reason for having this mailing list is
to discuss starship design and space travel, and I believe all subscribers
will appreciate it remaining limited to those topics. I also ask that
subscribers avoid cross-posting material to other mailing lists or
individual recipients if those postings could generate non-topical
followups to starship-design.X-Authentication-Warning:
darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to owner-starship-design
using -f X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:58:36 -0500

To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Subject: starship-design: Europa
Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 

In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of
Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a
life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

<Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

Kelly

P.S.
Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?


------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
----

=============================================================

X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:02:59 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> 
To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

Subject: starship-design: Europa
Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> 

Kelly Starks writes:
>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of
Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a
life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

><Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt
:-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. 

>Kelly

>P.S.
>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?

I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to
"Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous
nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and
analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops.

=============================================================

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Mime-Version: 1.0

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:28:10 -0500

To: Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> 
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa

Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu
Sender: owner-starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 

At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: 
>Kelly Starks writes:
>>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos
of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean.
I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

>><Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

>Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all doubt
:-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. 

If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be pissed!
;)

>>Kelly

>>P.S.
>>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?

>I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to
"Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous
nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and
analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops.

Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. 

It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life forms
in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive is at
Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard
questions.)

Kelly


------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
----

=============================================================


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:25:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender:
pbakelaar@hiway1.exit109.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), 
Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu> 
From: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> 
Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa

Cc: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

At 02:28 PM 8/14/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: 
>At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: 
>>Kelly Starks writes:
>>>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos
of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean.
I.E. a life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

>>><Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

>>Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all
doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. 

>If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be pissed!
;)

Remember guys, all you need is a Macintosh, and we can all save the world!
(Let's just hope The Brain is a faithful IBM user!) ;) 

>>>Kelly

>>>P.S.
>>>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?

>>I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to
"Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous
nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and
analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops.

>Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. 

I wonder if their announcement was a little premature? (Surely they didn't
have the Martian single-cell action figures made yet?) :) But seriously...
???

>It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life
forms in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive
is at Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard
questions.)

They really said that, huh? Amazing...

Ben 

=============================================================

X-Sender: kgstar@pophost.fw.hac.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:39:47 -0500

To: Philip Bakelaar <pbakelaar@exit109.com> 
From: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa

Cc: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39), 
Steve VanDevender <stevev@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, starship-
design@lists.uoregon.edu

At 4:25 PM 8/14/96, Philip Bakelaar wrote: 
>At 02:28 PM 8/14/96 -0500, Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39 wrote: 
>>At 12:02 PM 8/14/96, Steve VanDevender wrote: 
>>>Kelly Starks writes:
>>>>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo
photos of Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water
ocean. 
>>>I.E.
>>>>a life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

>>>><Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

>>>Soon the alien starships will enter the Solar System and remove all
doubt :-) We could then pick their brains for design concepts. 

>>If they're big disks, hovering over our major cities, I'm going to be
pissed! ;)

>Remember guys, all you need is a Macintosh, and we can all save the
world! 

Was there ever a doubt?

>(Let's just hope The Brain is a faithful IBM user!) ;) 




>>>>Kelly

>>>>P.S.
>>>>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?

>>>I actually wasn't that shocked by the concept; my reaction to
"Extraterrestrial life found" would be "Well, duh." Considering the tenuous
nature of their evidence, I'm waiting to hear about further results and
analysis of that meteorite to see if anything more conclusive develops.

>>Agreed. It looks likely. By then it always did. 

>I wonder if their announcement was a little premature? (Surely they
didn't have the Martian single-cell action figures made yet?) :) But
seriously... ???

They did too!, and they're doing great in the ameoba-are-us stores! 8) 

>>It might at least get NASA to consider the possibility of active life
forms in their designs. (Admin desision was that we proved nothing alive
is at Mars. And people wounder why D.C. shouldn't be trusted with hard
questions.)

>They really said that, huh? Amazing...

>Ben

The policy was (and probably still is) that the question of current life on
Mars is closed. Thats why they only talk about discovering fossil life. 

Kelly


------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
Hughes defense Communications
1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
----

=============================================================


Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender:
rddesign@wolfenet.com
Mime-Version: 1.0

To: kgstar@most.fw.hac.com (Kelly Starks x7066 MS 10-39) 
From: rddesign@wolfenet.com (Ric & Denisse Hedman) 
Subject: Re: starship-design: Europa

Cc: stevev@efn.org, jim@bogie2.bio.purdue.edu, pbakelaar@exit109.com, 
zkulpa@zmit1.ippt.gov.pl, hous0042@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
David@InterWorld.com, DotarSojat@aol.com,
T.L.G.vanderLinden@student.utwente.nl, lparker@destin.gulfnet.com 

>In case anyone missed it, NASA anounced yesterday that Galaleo photos of
Europa show what looks like signed of a under ice liquid water ocean. I.E. a
life zone. All in all their having a good month! 

><Damn forgot to forward the anouncement here to forward out.> 

>Kelly

>P.S.
>Am I the only one who wasn't particularly suprized or impresed by the
Marian fossil discovery?


I wasn't surprised at all.........Vikings dug a very tiny bit os soil and
probably in the wrong places........lets just go there and get it over with... 

Ric


>------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Kelly Starks	Phone: (219) 429-7066 Fax: (219) 429-6859
>Sr. Systems Engineer	Mail Stop: 10-39
>Hughes defense Communications
>1010 Production Road, Fort Wayne, IN 46808-4106 Email:
kgstar@most.fw.hac.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------
---- 



Visit RD Designs Home Page
at:..http://www.wolfenet.com/~rddesign/Rddesign.htm 

=============================================================

X-Authentication-Warning: darkwing.uoregon.edu: majordom set sender to
owner-starship-design using -f 
From: KellySt@aol.com

Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:18:26 -0400

To: starship-design@lists.uoregon.edu

Subject: starship-design: Scramjet/rocket launchers? Sender: owner-
starship-design@darkwing.uoregon.edu Precedence: bulk
Reply-
To: KellySt@aol.com

Just read NASA going to spend some money developing anmd testing
scramjet/rockets. (Ever notice an external burning scramjet looks about
the same as an aerospike rocket? ;) ) The idea is the craft would boost as
a rocket up to mach 3, then cut back the oxegen flow and work as a
scramjet up to Mach 8, then switch back to a rocket and boost out of the
atmosphere. So you don't have the big problem of carrying the weight of an
extra set of engines to orbit.

For refernce a SSTO at launch would be.

20 tons cargo
80 tons ship
100 tons liguid hydrogen fuel
800 tons of Oxegen to burn the fuel!

By geting about Mach 5 worth of boost without onboard air you could save
a lot of launch weight. According to some charts in Zubrins Black Horse
artical, that might be good enough to let a propane or kerosine fueled
version of the ship single stage to orbit. 

Problem I worry about is that you might lose enough delta-V plowing
through the air to overcome the savings from the smaller lighter ship. 

Sounds interesting though!