From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:44 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06251 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01936 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01936@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0001C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 145971 Lines: 3307 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: 2 Queen hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would there be any advantage to a 2 queen hive as a varroa management tool? If one could increase the number of bees to mites, you might reduce or prolong the need to treat with chemicals. Also have a greater population should provide more healthy bees for honey production, not to mention a extra queen that could be used else for a split. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 08:30:37 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hayward Subject: Re: Screen sizes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who responded regarding my problem re brood in brood chamber and honey super. Although some suggested that I may have had a drone-laying worker in the top box, all of the brood I saw was worker. I revisited this hive on the weekend just gone after having replaced the wire excluder with a plastic slot-type last weekend. My suspicion was confirmed as I only saw very advanced larvae and capped worker brood. It appears that the queen was indeed getting up through the wire excluder at will, and laying in the top box. Surprisingly she had to traverse a half-depth honey super to do so and had laid no eggs in that box, instead preferring the upper older comb which already contained brood. Thanks again for your responses. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:33:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: Screen sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Hayward To: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 11:16 PM Subject: Re: Screen sizes > I look forward to comments > > > Regards > > > Mark Hayward > Brisbane > Queenslanmd > I would suggest that you have an unmarked queen in the top box. Why not remove the top box and put another box on top without any of the bees from the original top box. this would check the integrity of your queen excluder good luck albert ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:09:49 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Davis" Subject: Snowed In Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Folks, I thought I would ask if anyone on the Bee-L has had extensive experience with bees being snowed in for long periods. I recently moved my small (comparatively speaking) bee operation to the Blue Mtns of eastern Oregon. Much to my dismay this winter is turning out to be a real doozie. Last time I looked my bees were covered in 3-5 ft of snow. If I didnt know exactly where they were I wouldnt be able to find them. They are wrapped in construction felt but are otherwise unprotected. For the most part they went into winter in good condition. Now I know that bees routinely survive short periods covered in snow, as have mine on a number of occations. What concerns me this year is that they may not have open entrances, or have the chance for cleansing flights for a period of 3 months or more. Question is have any of you had bees that were under snow this long- and did they survive? A few success stories would do a lot for my worried mind at the moment. Steve Davis Mtn. Home Apiaries Summerville, OR ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:04:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Alfalfa Pollination In-Reply-To: <200001142158.QAA20145@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Will honey bees to the job, and if so how many hives? > Honeybees will do the job of pollinating alfalfa... Pictures at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/WildBees/ Thanks to Andy allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:01:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Nucs for Pollination In-Reply-To: <200001142200.RAA20347@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You can further reduce weight if you move the super separate. Just add > it empty before the move and replace it with an empty one just before > the removal. Or, if you use excluders, you can just take the supers off -- bees & all, carry them with you stacked on the truck and replace them on *any* hive after arrival. The bees will get along just fine. The queens are in the BCs. And you equalize a bit in the randomisation. You may need a little smoke. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:30:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: christopher.slade@ZBEE.COM Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: A bit about the apidictor plus something different CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 850 MSGID: 240:244/186 82e153d2 REPLY: 240:44/0 3797bd6b PID: FDAPX/w 1.13 UnReg(60) The queen usually does check a cell with her front end before laying an egg in it from her back end. If Rex is right perhaps she is using her antennae which are sensitive to scent/pheromones to check that the cell is clean and ready for laying in and that she has not laid in it already. I had wondered why queen cups look so different to the finished article. I hope somebody with an observation hive , patience and an enquiring mind can check out Rex's suggestion. Chris Slade --- * Origin: Beenet Point (240:244/186) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 21:14:55 -0500 Reply-To: Honeybees@inorbit.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: S.S. Kresge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Everyone, I came across this on ebay and recalled someone on BEE-L asking for famous people that were beekeepers. Here is a new one: EXCERPT FROM DUST JACKET Detroit is the automotive capital of the world. It is also the birthplace---80 years ago---of S. S. Kresge’s dime store dynasty that has become one of the world’s leading mercantile enterprises---the K mart Corporation, which registered annual sales in 1978 of $11.7 billion. It all started when Sebastian Spering Kresge, a Pennsylvania Dutch boy, who excelled in bee culture, set out to make his fortune. Sebastian worked as a “drummer”---a tinware salesman, out of Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, and managed during the “Panic of 1893” to save $8,000 to invest in his own business. How S. S. Kresge progressed---and how so many men and women helped him succeed, is told in easy, down-to-earth style by his son, Stanley S. Kresge. The S. S. Kresge Story is not a theory on how to make millions of dollars. It tells you when and how it was done, and ultimately how it was spent “to benefit humanity.” In an unprecedented way---through the eyes of his peers, Stanley relates how Sebastian, wholeheartedly, gave it all back to the very people who helped him earn it in the first place. A book of national import, The S. S. Kresge Story appeals strongly to Americans who had a hand in the company’s development and to their descendants, the K mart shoppers of today. END EXCERPT Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 1994 11:28:41 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Maximum brood area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even when using a grid to determine the amount of brood in a comb I think we are still estimating not measuring. Using a grid takes too much time in calculations in real world field work. In Washington State we do not have a requirement for amount of brood in a pollinating unit, just the combs of bees. Under some weather conditions in California, colonies may come to Washington without any brood. When I measure brood area I always consider both sides of the frame as one frame. So I agree with Allen that both sides of a frame equal 100 percent. For speed in calculating I estimate the amount of brood by eye much as Allen did in looking at the video. Brood out to the end bars, down to the bottom bar, with only a small pollen and honey arch, on both sides of the frame, equals one frame. Another way that is sometimes easier is to subtract the open comb, pollen and honey from 100 percent to arrive at the amount of brood. Or, you can open a two story hive by tipping up the second box, estimate the amount of comb not covered with bees, look down into the bottom box and do the same (or up from the bottom), add the numbers, subtract from 16, or 20 combs in the two boxes and you have the number of combs of bees at a given temperature. Estimating the frames of bees is subjective but can be easily agreed on by several beekeepers observing the activity. I have found on numerous occasions that beekeepers may estimate individual frames somewhat different than I, but the overall estimate for the hive is usually within 1/2 to one frame. Remember that each colony clusters at different densities at a given ambient temperature resulting in further subjectivity. But, we are estimating not measuring. Here in Washington we have a minimum requirement of six frames two thirds covered with bees at 65 F. That is four full combs of bees, but bees don't cluster that way. They cluster in an elliptical or egg shape, hence subjectivity occurs. In conducting estimates it is most critical to estimate closely those colonies close to the minimum strength in the interest of the beekeeper and grower. I wonder if the "6 to 12 (Yup, TWELVE) full frames of brood" should have been BEES not brood. A simple verbal mistake, if it is a mistake. Twelve frames of brood would probably have 20 combs of bees during spring pollination here in Washington. This colony would soon be hanging in the trees. Allen's observations seem to concur with mine here. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:51:59 -0500 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Snowed In MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven A. Davis" To: > Hey Folks, > I thought I would ask if anyone on the Bee-L has had extensive experience > with bees being snowed in for long periods. Hi Steve, welcome to the club. Here in northern Quebec most of my 350 hives stay outside all winter,cosily wrapped in the "Western Four Pack" as used in Alberta etc. The snow comes just before Christmas and stays until mid April.Some years the hives are very well covered with snow and the temperatures go down to minus 40oC. Today it's minus 30oC and with the chill factor it's minus 51oC. The bees are fine, once buried in the snow they have a good insulation from the cold.Usually the hot air that escapes from the top entrance of the hives makes an air chimney through the snow, and the heat that escapes around the pack melts the snow close to the hives. I have wintered for over 15 years in four packs and have never had any excessive losses. Here most beekeepers winter indoors, but it's another expense and more moving of hives. I would think that Allen will have some advice on this matter. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:49:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee dance maneuver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now that the "dust has settled" somewhat on the ongoing exchange about the bee language hypothesis and associated issues, let me respond to some objections to my earlier postings, as raised by Peter Borst. I also add a point (#5, below) as to why beekeepers should be concerned about the outcome of this debate (in reference to a query by Barbara Belyea). 1) On 5 January, Peter posted a quotation from a 1964 SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN article of mine. At that time I had stressed the potential importance of the positive correlation between dance straight run time and distance travelled to food sources by foraging bees. * I do not know why he posted that quotation but thank him for that mention (it provides an opportunity for clarification). I had conducted my doctoral research on the faith that bee "language" existed. Naturally I wanted, at that time (as a person early in a career), to sway others to the potential importance of sounds produced during that maneuver. Later, however, I learned more about scientific process --- in particular, that finding a correlation does not constitute proof about what might be happening. * Later yet, our results from carefully controlled experiments resulted in an erosion of the language hypothesis. One might imagine how many sleepness nights I had --- knowing that my whole doctoral dissertation research had been undermined by our own results! 2) On 7 January, Peter assured me that he has been a skeptic most of his life and that he had no strong opinion on the language hypothesis. * On that same day I wrote him: "Actually, all the points you have raised so far are covered very completely in our book: 1990 Wenner, A.M. and P.H. Wells. ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY: The Question of a "Language" Among Bees. Columbia University Press. The Cornell University library undoubtedly has a copy. In particular, read Excursus TEL: Teleology (pages 362 ff). " * That book has received rave reviews from people in many different scientific fields but only scathing reviews from bee language proponents. 3) On 9 January, Peter posted an attempted refutation of each of the five points I had originally provided to this list, the points I listed that conflict with expectations of the language hypothesis. * Actually, all but one of his objections are adequately addressed in our book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY --- except for the results from the robot bee experiments; they were published too late for us to deal with them fully in our book. * However, one can find out how the robot bee experimental results actually negated the language hypothesis in the following invited review paper: 1991 Wenner, A.M., D. Meade, and L. J. Friesen. Recruitment, search behavior, and flight ranges of honey bees. AMERICAN ZOOLOGIST. 31(6):768-782. (No, don't expect to find any mention of that paper in books written by language proponents.) * Edward Southwick, though, provided a favorable review of that paper on pp. 641 ff in the October 1992 issue of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. The many people who have requested further information will receive a copy of that paper and of Southwick's review. 4) On page 22 of our book, one can read the following quotation by Karl Popper, an eminent philosopher of science, as follows: "Some genuinely testable theories, when found to be false, are still upheld by their admirers --- for example, by introducing AD HOC some auxiliary assumption, or by re-interpreting the theory AD HOC in such a way that it escapes refutation. Such a procedure is always possible, but it rescues the theory from refutation only at the price of destroying or at least lowering its scientific status." * Supporters of the dance language hypothesis have now qualified their hypothesis so much that it no longer has predictive power --- and thus no longer has scientific merit. 5) Why should beekeepers and applied bee researchers be concerned? A body of language supporters has exercised control (through the anonymous review system) of allocation of much of the funds available for basic bee research. Consequently, millions of dollars have now been spent on fruitless bee "language" studies during the last three decades. (The robot bee experiments alone required almost a million dollars.) * During that same period of time, relatively few dollars have been allocated for applied research on trachael and varroa mites, nosema, AFB, EFB, etc. Just think where we might have been with our serious beekeeping problems if available funds had been more fairly directed to support of research meaningful to beekeepers! * I guess we shouldn't despair. Consider that the University of Utah allocated 5 million dollars to "cold fusion" research and that the militaries in Britain, USSR, and the US spent several million dollars on "polywater" research --- all to no avail. 6) I just received my copy of the January issue of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. One can find there (pages 11 and 12) a letter of mine that responds to contents of three letters of very divergent viewpoint printed two months earlier. Clearly, our attitudes to this overall problem depend largely on our past experiences. * Paul Doerr of Fairfield, CA also has a letter in that issue, in which he stated (in part): "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? This is just as silly as the controversy over what is a language (ABJ, Nov. 99)..." * I agree that it is time we move on to the really serious issues that beekeepers and bee researchers face today. Will bee language proponents allow that to happen, or will they continue to flood the popular media with the exotic story of "bee language"? Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 14:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Insect Communication (was Bee Dances) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Insect Communication As most beekeepers know, honeybees and wasps are similar in many ways. The general public often confuses them. Usually when someone gets "stung by a bee" at a picnic, the real culprit is usually a yellow jacket. And how many times have you seen an illustration of a "bee hive" that looked more like a wasp nest than anything honeybees build? So it should come as no surprise that wasps and bees are similar in other ways. I obtained several recent issues of the magazine "Insects Sociaux," which describe detailed studies of wasp behavior. One article describes body communication among wasps: "Among the most conspicuous yet enigmatic behaviors displayed by paper wasps (Polistes) are body oscillations performed by adults on the comb. These oscillations, which superficially resemble certain aspects of the honey bee waggle dance, appear to be widespread among temperate Polistes." *1 (citations at end of message) Certain wasps reproduce their colonies by swarming, much as honeybees do. Prior to departure, the workers perform an activity call "buzz-running," evidently to communicate with their nest mates that a decision has been made to issue a swarm. A buzz run is a frantic, jerky run across the comb. "Prior to reproductive swarming there are definitive changes in wasp behavior which can be used as indicators that a colony is about to produce a swarm." *2 In an article published at the end of 1999, the results of a long-term study of honey bee swarming is reported. Interestingly, "buzz-running" appears in honey bee colonies and is also associated with pre-swarming. The main focus of the article is on how a decision is made as to which site a swarm will go to among the several choices located by the scouts. The way in which the bees communicate information about the site is as follows: "Scout bees fly throughout the surrounding countryside searching for new nest-site cavities. When a scout returns after inspecting a high-quality cavity, she performs waggle dances which encode the distance and direction to the site. Most bees that danced for nest sites also followed the dances of other scouts." *3 The method of communicating information is similar to that used by foraging bees to recruit more foragers to a productive site. "The colony functions as an information center also in the allocation of its foragers, but in house-hunting this function is even more refined. The only thing a nest-site scout brings back is information, and this information is critical for the ... colony's survival and reproduction. " *3 Many scouts will dance and the dances may represent many different sites. The authors designed an experiment to simplify the observations. They placed bees in a desert location with no suitable nesting sites other than the two boxes the researchers provided. They observed the two factions of scouts lobbying for the two boxes until one site was eliminated by the bees. The process by which this decision is reached is the primary focus of the article. The desert experiment was also described in great detail in a recent issue of "The Mind of the Swarm" David Pacchioli (Research/Penn State, Vol. 19, no. 3 (September, 1998)) You can read this on the web at http://www2.deasy.psu.edu/rps/sep98/swarm.html Here is a detailed description of how the bees communicate their choice of nest sites: "The dancing bees, half a dozen, were rotating in place, counter-clockwise on the surface of the swarm, pausing at the same spot in each circuit to execute an exaggerated abdominal waggle. A score of other bees followed each one intently, pushing forward, nudging their heads close to the dancer's rear, 'reading' the dance by sticking their antennae into the space directly behind the dancer's wings. 'That's where they can best perceive the sound of the wings' vibration," Camazine said. "They need to follow several circuits in order to get the message.' " *4 ------------------------------------------ Citations: *1) "The communicative meaning of body oscillations in the social wasp, Polistes fuscatus." Savoyard, et al. *2) "Patterns of buzz running, a pre-swarming behavior, in the Neotropical wasp Parachartergus colopterus." Ezenwa, et al. *3) "House-hunting by honey bee swarms: collective decisions and individual behaviors." Camazine, et al. *4) "The Mind of the Swarm" David Pacchioli (Research/Penn State, Vol. 19, no. 3 (September, 1998)) http://www2.deasy.psu.edu/rps/sep98/swarm.html - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ phone: 607 275 0266 - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:01:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Maximum Brood Area MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > What puzzles me is that they stated -- after carefully explaining the > measurement method -- was that a hive could and should be expected to have from > 6 to 12 (Yup, TWELVE) full frames of brood when going to pollination. > > > How do we get twelve? > > I can only conclude that I must be counting assuming that one frame requires > both sides to be 100% full of brood, and everyone else is counting each side as > a frame of brood. This is the weakness in such a measurement. > > What say ye all? > > allen Well Allen, On the other hand that would mean the 6 frame recommendation is really 3 full frames. Three frames of brood would be OK as long as the queen was actively laying and there were plenty of field bees. The only time I would find it acceptable to charge for that, would be if the queen was late starting, I removed frames of brood and knew the queen was good, or she had only been laying in the hive a short time as she was recently added, or there was a significant number of uncapped and/or eggs. For berries, brambles or similarly attractive plants, 3 full frames would do. For flowers requiring large numbers of visits such as the cucurbits, there had better be a good reason for the small amount of brood and the queen is a real good one. Thom Bradley Tidewater Beekeeper's Association http://groups.hamptonroads.com/beekeepers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:31:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: TBH Excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently finished constructing my first two top bar hives based loosely on construction diagrams suggested in posts to sci.agriculture.beekeeping. (They are "sloped" sided hives 18 inches wide at the top, 7 inches wide at the bottom, 10 inches deep, and 36 inches long, each holding 25 top bars. These dimensions allowed cutting two complete hives out of one 4x8 sheet of plywood.) While some web sites suggest there is no need for queen excluders in TBHs, I've been wondering if a simple queen barrier would help concentrate brood rearing toward the front entrance of the hive? I understand that before wire excluders became commonly used with Langstroth hives, some beekeepers accomplished the same result by centering a rectangular sheet of thin wood on top of the brood frames, leaving an inch or so of space around the outside edges. Could the same principle be used in a TBH -- vertically, of course, instead of horizontally -- such as nailing a piece of masonite to hang from a top bar, with gaps for the workers to move around it along the bottom and/or sides? I realize I could simply cut a perfectly good wire excluder to fit, but I'm looking for an easier (and cheaper) way to accomplish the same result. Any thoughts? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 09:14:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Electrostatic Charge MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. -----Original Message----- From: Allen Dick [mailto:allend@internode.net] Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2000 11:15 AM To: Jerry J Bromenshenk; BEE-L Subject: RE: Bee-L > Microbial studies going well. Electrostatics very important to uptake and > carrying of bacteria, fungi, pollen, etc. > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D.... Jerry wrote me this in a private communication some time back, then talked about this publicly a bit at Sandy Yego. If I understood him correctly, he said that only a small gradient -- in the order of a few volts -- was necessary to get things to stick to bees. I was cleaning out my folders and re-read this, and it hit me: Could this effect be used to enhance pollination effectiveness of honeybees? The apparatus might be *very* simple and cost only a few dollars to add to an entire yard of hives! Maybe Jerry and others will elaborate on what apparatus is necessary to charge up the exiting bees, and impressions of the feasibility of this idea... allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:12:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Apidictor, electronic hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Apidictor is in the process of being modernized by some of us on this list. Much of the design work for a new prototype is done and the instrument will hopefully soon be working. As an old R+D engineer with a couple decades of experience in signal conditioning, I have a few cautions about the "electronic hive". No doubt this can be done. That it is being done in a sort of outdoor laboratory setting is not surprising. Such work may be crucial to learning which data are most important to acquire. However, the practical "electronic hive" will, for several reasons, need to implement only those capabilities that prove most necessary and useful . First, the cost must be low. Second, too much data taken without sufficient ability to process and use such data can be very confusing, time consuming, and may be worse than no electronic data acquisition at all. Third, every electronic sensor requires to be connected by at least two wires. Unless sensors can be clustered in a single location in a hive, wiring may proliferate as in automobiles. Wiring in automobiles is already a problem where the frequency of mechanics' dealings with it is minimal compared to that of our hive manipulations. Wiring creates two problems. One is that, in hive manipulations, we have enough to watch to be careful of our bees without having to be careful of the electronics too. The second is that the environment of the hive is going to necessitate some high quality "blind-mate" connectors, which are apt to cost more than the sensors and signal conditioning cicuitry combined. In short, I see great potential in the "electronic hive", but personally plan to approach it in modest steps. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 17:58:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Bee candy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Having printed and studied all the bee candy references in the archives, we decided to attempt to make a fudgy or fondant-like candy. We did not wish to use corn syrup as we have some question about all corn syrup processes being good for bees. We did not wish to include cream of tartar for similar reasons. We began with the "12345" formula, using a small amount of vinegar (volatilized in process) to break down the sugar. We found the 1:5 water to sugar ratio too quick for the response of our thermometer in small batches, and backed off to 1:4, which doesn't change the end result, but slows the process. Our first pour, on a greased metal sheet, yielded a suitably friable cake but one too brittle for easy handling. Cooling the sheet with snow worsened the brittleness. Pouring onto wax paper on a towel gave a nice cake, but too thin. Cooling to 200F prior to pouring increased cake thickness. In conclusion, to obtain satisfactory cakes we: 1. Use 1 part water to 4 parts granulated sugar. 2. Add 1/4 tsp. per vinegar per pound of sugar. 3. Bring to boil, stirring constantly until boiling commences. 4. Boil without stirring for 3 minutes, covered. 5. Insert thermometer, and boil uncovered until 234F is reached. 6. Remove from heat, and allow to cool to 200F. 7. Whip with whisk until whiteness occurs. 8. Pour (QUICKLY!) onto waxed paper having a towel beneath. 9. Allow to cool undisturbed. 10. Remove waxed paper, and store each cake in a plastic bag. The cakes thus made can be handled as plates, but are fudgy. They are totally white with whiter areas inside. Tiny crystals shine from a broken edge of a cake. The waxed paper is readily removed before storage. If the towel is fluffy the wax paper depresses limiting the width of the cake. We did try to make the candy without stirring which yielded a transparent gel that was extremely sticky. We did try to recycle our earlier failures, but they were crumbly until we added vinegar again, after which they behaved as new sugar. The bees seem to like these cakes. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 10:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Maximum Brood Area Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regardless of available area for brood, supering, and ventilation, my bees of various races exhibit swarminess when they get more than 9 deep frames or 14 medium frames of brood. Once getting 18 medium frames of brood resulted in having to cut 71 swarm cups, many of which were juicy. This is counting the sum of both frame sides full as one frame, estimating fractional frames of brood during inspection, noting swarm cells, speaking into a recorder, and transcribing the recording onto data sheets. This comment therefore is based on recorded observations. If something wonderful will make a colony of twelve deep frames full on both sides of brood content not to swarm at their earliest opportunity, please correct my ignorance. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Alfalfa Pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by Pollinator@AOL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove lengthy delivery error messages. From: Pollinator@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:43:39 EST Subject: Re: Alfalfa Pollination To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 In a message dated 1/14/00 1:59:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, Thombrad@VISI.NET writes: << I have a feeling I am about to be called off to the races but, then again I don't think we discuss pollination enough. >> Hmmmm... all I have to do is leave for awhile, and suddenly everyone is talking pollination. Hmmmmm... Harry Whitcomb's book, "Bees are My Business" tells the story of the beginnings of alfalfa pollination with honeybees in great detail. It has quite an interesting note on how Utah destroyed its alfalfa seed industry by banning migratory beekeepers. The industry thought the bees were damaging the flowers! The book is out of print, but you probably can get it thru the library. Whitcomb knew that bees were helping the alfalfa pollination, but, at the levels that beekeepers stocked bees for honey, seed yields were poor. He was sure that higher stocking levels would accomplish more seed. No grower was willing to pay for more bees, and no beekeeper was willing to put more bees out, just to share the nectar resource with more hives. So he and a young extension agent negotiated an agreement with one seed grower to stock a very high rate of hives per acre, in exchange for a percentage of all the crop yield over what was then considered a high yield. Harry and the seed grower both made a bundle, and the alfalfa seed industry quickly saw that they'd get cheaper bees, if they paid for them, per hive. So a whole industry was born in California, and Utah never got back its prominance in the alfalfa seed industry. McGregor has already been mentioned as another resource. One key thing is that alfalfa is easy to evaluate. If pollination is poor, the flowers remain fresh and bright colored for a long time. If you have good bee activity, they will wilt within a couple hours. The whole field seems to change color. If you get that quick color change, you got the job done. Honeybees will learn that they get clunked by the tripping of the flower, and the older bees will learn to get nectar without being hit (and thereby not accomplishing pollination). You need to keep a high population of young bees, that are still too stupid to evade the blow. Dave http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:26:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JCHenry500@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been told that honey bees are an important pollinator of cotton. It is my understanding that early colonists brought European bees to America. Since cotton was already established as a New World plant and I assume some degree of cultivation was present what were the natural pollinators? Is it unusual that a plant would evolve with one set of pollinators only to have them suddenly supplanted by a more efficient one from an outside source? What are the "natural" pollinators of cotton. How efficient are they? How much more efficient are honey bees? Is it unusual for an established plant to suddenly "discover" a more efficient means of pollination? Were the natural pollinators displaced from a niche? Charles Henry Little Rock ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FW: Awesome Beekeeping Comic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Awesome Beekeeping Comic From: eanglin@my-deja.com Date: 2000/01/15 Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping http://www.jayhosler.com/clanapis.html You have to check 0ut this awesome website - this fellow has written an awesome comic book all about bees - and he has got it right! Check out the sample pages on the website - His drawings are accurate, beautiful, and he had managed to make the bees appealing too! His section of "Science comics" is amusing too - I particularly recommend "Should I stay or should I go". On the recent thread of allergy to bee stings- read his section on "Killer Bees"- It has nothing to do with AHB! Ellen Anglin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Immaraju Subject: Mites on Bees Just wanted to pass on the information that a new azadirachtin-based insecticide (ECOZIN) has been approved by the EPA for use on crops. The formulation (unlike other neem formulations) has basically no odor and is fully standardized for azadirachtin and limonoid contend. If someone needs further information, please call at (801) 278-4489 or email. This material has also been approved for organic crop use by OMRI. Thanks John Immaraju, Ph.D. Product Manager, Ecozin Amvac Chemical Corp. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:03 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: 2 Queen hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Charlie Andros, keeper of 41 two queen colonies in Vermont traps pollen under his hives. The upper entrances are closed up,(there is a 7/8 inch hole in each super), and all of the bees from both colonies are forced through the pollen trap underneath the bottom hive. The hives are on top of one another. He collects pollen measured in pounds from some of these hives. I suspect a substantial number of mites are knocked off each bee passing though the pollen trap. Charlie is in Brazil now, and has a hard time gettin his e-mail. Perhaps he will post on this subject when he returns. ( Hi Charlie!) Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," definition= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 01/17/99 18:13:04 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:29:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Coyle Subject: Re: Snowed In In-Reply-To: <200001171624.LAA04598@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hey Folks, >I thought I would ask if anyone on the Bee-L has had extensive experience >with bees being snowed in for long periods. >Steve Davis I have had the same sitituation you speek of and the same winter wrap. All I ever do is dig out the entrance a bit just so the bees can have cleansing flights when the weather permits. Works fine for me. Ken Coyle If you can't fix it with duct tape, why bother? coyle@golden.net http://home.golden.net/~coyle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:30:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Electrostatic Charge In-Reply-To: <200001171724.MAA13227@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry asked me to forward his reply on the current thread that went to me personally instead of the list as intended: -----here it is-------- I wondered how long it would take before the light bulb went on. Bruce Lighthart in Oregon and Kevin Prier are currently working on putting an excess charge on bees. Also working on measuring the charge variation among hives in an apiary. Bruce and Kevin, as you know, are charging bees, then introducing all kinds of things into a wind tunnel and past tethered bees to see how they are taken up and stick. Gerry Loper in Tucson is out measuring charge on bees coming and going from hives. Anyone with good ideas, I'm sure these three would love to hear from you - especially anyone who really understands electrostatics - any of the XEROX pioneers out there looking for some fun questions? In the meantime, I will send your question on to Bruce Lighthart at lighthab@open.org Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:04:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham Law Subject: Very Large Observation Hives and Hybrids Recently there was some discussion about large observations hives, and I thought I would take photo of an experimental hive I have been running that is really a hybrid between an observation hive and a practical colony. You can see the photos at: http://www.gandboss.demon.co.uk/BeeStuff/Bee Photos/photo.htm feedback most welcome Cheers Graham Graham@gandboss.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 12:40:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Apidictor, electronic hives In-Reply-To: <200001171747.MAA14742@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something no one mentions in regard to the question of communication cost for telemetry is that that radio amateurs (Hams) have a number of satellites up there. Cost of use is exactly nil. I don't know about what the current capabilities and regulations are, but I should think that these birds might be available for experimental work. allen VE6CFK ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:47:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee dance manoeuvre In-Reply-To: <200001171711.MAA12133@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now that the "dust has settled" somewhat on the ongoing exchange > about the bee language hypothesis and associated issues... Well, that's true, but what I really want to know, Adrian -- from a layman's perspective -- is if you have any thoughts about the causes, 'purposes', 'functions' and 'meaning' and relationships involved in the curious bee behaviour that is described as dancing. Without getting into the problems with using these words, I wonder if you have any musings on what the dance is all about. I've followed your arguments since the '70s or so, and have an original copy of the Bee Language Controversy, but I wonder what you might have to say today about the behaviour that has inspired so much human activity and the extent, if any, to which it is involved in bees finding things? allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 03:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: TBH Excluders Comments: cc: flanders@PROBE.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have kept a TBH for two years now- mine is sized like three langstroth bodies placed side by side. (So I can give them langstroth frames of brood or food if needed.) It has been my experience that queen excluders are not neccesary in TBH's. A bar or two full of honey, placed where you wnt to end the brood nest has been all I have found necessary to keep the brood where I want it. If anything, I have found it necessary to place empty bars in the brood area to keep the bees from crowding the queen into too small an area. My bees keep the brood nest within a bar or two of the "Front" of the hive on their own. When winter approached I shifted the brood nest back a couple frames, and placed a couple more frames full of honey between the cluster and the front of the hive to increase the amount of honey surrounding the cluster, and to provide more barriers between them and the drafts. I don't know if this was actually necessary. Genetics does have something to do with a compact brood nest- my TBH bes are mongrels descended from Carniolan cross bees, Italians, and Buckfast. They are multicolored, with an odd cordovan showing up once in a while. This hive may be due for ruqueening, but so far they are surviving well, and since they build good comb, and have wintered successfully for two winters, I'll let this "Play" hive do its own thing unless they get mean. Ellen Anglin In Michigan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:40:19 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: A bit about the apidictor plus something different MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Boys asked: > "Hold on a moment", I hear you say, " How does she manage to get a = > fertilised egg into the much wider queen cell?" By coincidence, last evening I watched an Australian video which stated that the worker bees transferred an egg into the queen cell. I had not come across this suggestion before and have no idea if it is correct, but it would be an alternative which would fit in with the rest of your theory. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru, The Welsh Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Snowed In MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven A. Davis wrote: > Hey Folks, > I thought I would ask if anyone on the Bee-L has had extensive experience > with bees being snowed in for long periods. Keeping bees in Nothern Vermont, I've seen colonies buried under snow for long periods. One winter 5 or 6 years ago comes to mind. It was the middle of March, and warm weather was predicted the following week. Would be the first flight weather since the previous November. The hives were buried so deeply that I had to search for them with a long handled shovel by poking around where I knew they must be located. Some colonies in some yards I couldn't find, but most I did. I dug trenches for the upper entrances, so when it did get warm they could fly. > What concerns me this year is that they may not have open entrances, or have > the chance for cleansing flights Digging 30 yards of bees out of the snow is no easy task. It didn't take long to realize that most of my concerns were unfounded. I too was worried about entrances being plugged, and bees suffocating. This is what I found. The heat of the colony had melted a chamber around each colony. Rising from this chamber was a small shaft of open space-sort of like a chimney. The bees certainly had all the air that they needed. The following week, it did warm up, and they had a good cleansing flight. Have you ever been in the yards when the bees have had their first good cleansing flight of the year? Stinky me! Winter losses were normal for that winter. Mike > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FW: Granulated Honey & Microwave MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Granulated Honey & Microwave From: Seppo.Korpela@mtt.fi (Seppo Korpela) Date: 2000/01/18 Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping >Come on! >Don't forget that old broken chest freezer >Strip out the works and add a 40/60 watt heater or bulb with a thermostat >Great insulation >Gentle heat >Little loss of hmf As concerns HMF, the advantage of gentle heating with heat cabinet compared with microwave heating seems more to be connected with small loss of enzymes. On the other hand there is only a small *increase* in HMF content of honey. I have written on this in BEE-L: "There was an article in Deutsches Bienen-Journal 3: 78-82 by Werner von der Ohe/Katharina von der Ohe in 1992 entitled "Honigqualitat: der Einfluss der Temperatur [Honey quality: the effect of temperature]." The authors report on their experiments on heating honey either in a water bath at 40, 50 or 60 deg. C or with microwaves. The changes in HMF content and in contents of the enzymes invertase, amylase and glucose oxidase were recorded. The heating at 40 deg. C for 24 h caused neither decrease of enzyme content nor an inrease of HMF content. Treatment with microwawes caused a slight increase in the HMF content but almost a total loss of the enzymes." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:53:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Snowed In In-Reply-To: <200001171708.MAA11863@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I thought I would ask if anyone on the Bee-L has had extensive experience > > with bees being snowed in for long periods. > > I would think that Allen will have some advice on this matter. Actually, we are in an area where we would like to have more snow. I just bought a snowmobile and we have only about 2 to 3 inches on the ground. We'll be lucky if we get any more before it sublimates or melts, but sometimes we are lucky. One year, 1956, there were drifts up to 26 feet high, I am told. I have had hives covered completely only a few times, but each time everything was AOK. There is a beekeeper(s) in Northern Saskatchewan who actually goes out and deliberately shovels snow over his hives each winter. He is in an area where the winters are long, and he winters outdoors in singles with very little loss, so I guess he knows what he is doing! allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:17:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Re: A bit about the apidictor plus something different Comments: To: John Burgess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re John Burgess' posting:- 1) Did the Australian video witness the transfer of worker eggs to the queen cells? Was it presented as a theory or as a proven fact? 2) Mine is just a theory but if I am wrong, why do they bother to start a queen cell and then bell it in to have a worker size entrance? Rex Boys ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 21:43:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lars Hansen Subject: Language - not language Dear list. Several mails on the list have tried to sum up what is known and not known to be scientific fact(s) about bee dances. After reading what I could lay my hands on - including material kindly supplied by Adrian Wenner - I´m sure that there a a lot of matters still to be sorted out before we know (..more about..) how bees communicate. And for sure, it is one of the most interesting topics. For one reason or another, I seem to listen more to - and learn more from - people´s explanations when they are not in the form af political statements but rather dealing openly with the doubts and uncertainties involved with any dealing with a complicated subject. May I suggest that instead of generalizations, we could focus on specific topics and thereby adding pieces to the overall puzzle. I think it goes well with the line of informed discussion: laying your piece on the table with pros and cons and telling what you see - but not what everybody else is supposed to see! As I don´t regard myself as being able to supply pieces to the language/not language discussion, I ask questions: 1. Peter Borst quotes Kirchner and Towne: "Novel experiments, such as training bees to respond to sounds and recruiting them using a robot, have ended several debates surrounding the dance language." Could You, Adrian Wenner, please put Your piece on the table and sum up very shortly: what precisely was wrong with the experiments with "robot bees" and/or the conclusions made? 2. Correct me, if I´m wrong: It seems to me, that in experiments on recruiting using odeur (Wenner, Lindauer, Seeley ...), the concentration of the smelling ingredient is very different? It would be interesting to hear comments on the concentrations. Do some experiments disfavor the role of odeur by keeping the concentration low or others favor it by keeping them high. Is there such a thing as a realistic level of odeur comparing to natural conditions? 3. Speaking of natural conditions: Could it be, that the area where some have experimented favoured a conclusion that odeur is less important? And did the areas where others have experimented favor the opposite conclusion? As a European, I´m not familiar with american geography in detail, but I guess that a plains area and a small valley would emphasize different aspects? Bee gretings, Lars Hansen Denmark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Varroa Mite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excerpted from Kim Flottum's "Catch The Buzz E-mail Letter" Kim is Editor of the US Bee Culture magazine. http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm .........................................................................= ............ Beekeepers no longer have to rely solely on chemicals to battle the = pesky varroa mite, thanks to a new control developed by an Agricultural = Research Service scientist. Entomologist Jeff Pettis and colleagues at = the agency's Bee Research Lab in Beltsville, Md., developed the Beltsville Screen = Insert to help thwart the mite. The screen separates the mites from the bees by creating a 1.5-inch gap = between the bottom board and hive bottom. When bees groom each other, = they sometimes knock the mites off. Smoke and chemical treatments = applied by beekeepers also help remove the mites. The insert's wire mesh allows the = mites to fall through the screen and onto the hive bottom, so the mites = can't reattach to bees as they enter and leave the colony. After taking = monthly samples of the fallen varroa, it was found that the screen = reduces varroa populations by 15 percent. Varroa mite infestations have become such a serious problem that = maintaining bee colonies without chemical treatment is virtually = impossible. Currently, the only pesticide approved for general use for = varroa mite control is Apistan, a strip that contains the chemical = tau-fluvalinate. But varroa mites have begun to show resistance to the = chemical, so scientists are looking for alternatives such as the screen. The screen reduces the reliance on synthetic chemical pesticides while = still helping control the mites. Researchers are continually developing = and improving the screen, but it is already being sold in the Brushy = Mountain beekeeping supply catalog. Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:11:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Language - not language - manoeuvre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Both Allen Dick and Lars Hansen have set interesting tasks before me that will take some time to answer --- especially since I am quite involved in other matters the next couple of days. Please be patient. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 19:14:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Attila31@AOL.COM Subject: Mite control. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit American Bee Jornal. Januar, pg 26 has an advertisement about a vaporisig unit. The add claims they use 3 spoonful of white vinigar.This unit will vaporize this vinigar and will be fed into the hive. 3 minute exposure will kill both mites. Does anybody has any experience with this unit. (it cost $395). Thanks for your help. Attila ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:15:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/00 2:02:42 PM, JCHenry500@AOL.COM writes: <> Honey bees are getting a bad rap today in the conservation movement and among gardeners for being an invasive species that outcompetes native pollinators. I'm not a scientist, but it seems some of the highly speculative comments I've read about the deprivations of honey bees are coming from some in the scientific community who covet the money that is being spent on honey bee research. It's necessary that beekeepers and others interested in their work develop an effective response to these accusations, lest we lose our research funding and our markets. A clear, persuasive, accurate message is needed to unsully our work. What follows is my muddled beginnings of a response to these criticisms of honey bees. I rely on the readers of this list to help me sharpen the points. The amazing thing about flowers and their pollinators is how some have evolved over time into specific relationships with certain pollinators. The flowers may have evolved so that only the preferred pollinator can pollinate them. Think of the long-stemmed flowers that seem perfectly shaped for a hummingbird's probing beak. Honey bees usually cannot compete with specialists because pollen or nectar is not accessible or not desireable to them. It's also true that honey bees do compete with rare or endangered pollinators in some places, especially it seems in harsher environments like the desert (Buchmann and Nabhan, 1996). Pollination specialization can be deadly, because it means those life forms cannot adapt quickly to change. Loss of habitat may be the biggest challenge many of these species are facing. When specialized flowers or their pollinators become endangered or threatened, it is usually because of habitat loss, not competition from honey bees. Other flowers are generalists; they may be pollinated by many different insects who are also generalists that visit a variety of plants. Generalists have wider ranges, are more adaptable, and have larger populations. I don't know what the natural pollinator of cotton is, but it's probably another highly adaptable generalist that may have been locally displaced in some regions where honey bees have become well established, but I doubt it has been completely displaced across its range. Native pollinators may even be doing better than before the honey bees arrived, due to the cultural practices of Old World farming and modern cultivation. Humans have created new opportunities for the generalist pollinators, native and introduced alike. There is probably far more cotton growing today in North America due to farming than there was at the time the honey bee was introduced. I suspect that if it were possible to compare the population size of native pollinators today with what it was when honey bees were first introduced, we might find populations are actually larger. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:04:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: 2 Queen hive, Varroa Mites In-Reply-To: <200001180504.AAA08369@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >>Would there be any advantage to a 2 queen hive as a varroa management tool? Unfortunately, in our experience we find that the strongest hives seem to be especially susceptible to varroa, whereas smaller hives may have a much lower percentage of infestation. We think that this may have to do with conditions within the brood nest of a strong hive being especially favorable for the rapid reproduction of varroa. If you have the money to buy 2 queens for every hive (or if you raise queens) I would suggest keeping a large number of extra one story hives, instead of forming 2 queen hives. You can use these throughout the season to raise brood to give to faltering colonies and in the late summer you can use them to replace colonies that have failed. We talked a while back about killing heavily infested colonies. I think this is probably a good (if distasteful) plan. Merely adding bees to a sick hive will have a short term benefit but if the infestation has advanced to the point where you are seeing wingless bees, the colony is probably ruined (there may be additional disorders associated with this level of infestation). The varroa problem is not going to be solved easily nor soon. If there were a simple solution we would all be doing it. That is why coumaphos is on the market by virtue of an emergency exemption - because we are dealing with an emergency situation. At the Dyce Lab we have been working with the whole gamut of controls, with the intent of finding things that really work, rather than propagating hunches. Also, beekeepers need to learn how to do the ether roll technique. Other methods of assessing infestation rates simply aren't reliable. This fall we did ether rolls on about 200 hives. These were ordinary commercial hives that had been treated in spring with Apistan. Very seldom were there visible symptoms despite the fact that over 95 percent of the hives had varroa mites. The levels ranged from 0 to 150 mites per 250 bees. While there is no hard rule for infestation levels, any number of mites indicates a need to treat, and by this I mean treat the whole apiary because bees and mites drift from hive to hive. Beekeepers should participate as much as possible in the quest for resistant bees. Begin by purchasing queens from reliable breeders, avoiding those with exaggerated claims, and watching the hives closely to see if so-called resistant stock is actually so. I believe that while many dubious claims have been made over the years, the future of beekeeping lies in stock improvement. *In my opinion* the idea of mite-resistant bees occurring spontaneously in a given population is a day-dream (see Brother Adam's writings. More info on request). Developing true resistance requires a thorough understanding of the mechanism and a rigorous breeding program to fix the characteristics. We see many variations in the levels of mite infestations and frequently there seems to be what is called "the apiary effect" where a whole apiary will have a much lower (or higher) level of infestation than apiaries in the vicinity. This could be due to any number of causes not relating to heredity (such as micro climates). Do not assume that because a given hive or apiary has low concentrations, that one has stumbled upon resistance. For more info read: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/99nov/99nov1.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu 607 275 0266 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:53:19 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII <> Hello Gang, We do not have to be scientists to clearly see a fundamental problem with this situation. The old axiom says, to find the truth, follow the money. I'm not a bee scientist either, but I do have a great deal of experience with paradigm shift in peoples lives. This study has been a part of my life for the past 11 years. I have notice a trend that is disturbing to me. There is an increase in the acceptance of a statement as fact simply because of the willingness of a person to believe it. It has nothing to do with whether this statement is true. There is a decreasing trend also. It is the willingness of a person to check for themselves whether a statement is true. The over all paradigm is this; (If it sounds good to me, then it is good enough for me, and don't try to impose your reality on me!) I ask myself this question daily; Why am I doing this? This simple question keeps my paradigm in the constant state of preparedness to shift. Things don't sneak up on me now like they used to. At the risk of being cliche, here are a few things that were thought to be true. The earth is flat, man will never fly, man will be killed if he travels at a speed of more than 30 mph. Relating to beekeeping, ask the big question, Why am I doing this? 1, Feeding antibiotics to healthy bees. 2. Using foundation that is larger than normal. 3. Using insecticide in a colony of insects. My point here is to think about why we do these things on a regular basis. This way when someone comes up with what might be a solution to a vexing problem, we will be willing to listen and try it. There are those who fit this model now, and if you are one, count yourself in the minority. Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," definition= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ------------------------------------- 01/19/99 08:53:19 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:25:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bees and cotton In-Reply-To: <200001191045.FAA26998@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Honey bees are getting a bad rap today in the conservation movement and > among gardeners for being an invasive species that outcompetes native > pollinators. Ironically, it appears that such accusations originate mostly from white members of homo sapiens which is also a highly invasive group of a highly invasive species that outcompetes native groups and cultures and destroys habitat as well as other species... allen I have seen the enemy, and it is us - Pogo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:31:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/00 12:14:15 PM EST, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << > Honey bees are getting a bad rap today in the conservation movement and > among gardeners for being an invasive species that outcompetes native > pollinators. Ironically, it appears that such accusations originate mostly from white members of homo sapiens which is also a highly invasive group of a highly invasive species that outcompetes native groups and cultures and destroys habitat as well as other species... >> Yup, we must insist on ethical consistancy here, right, Allen. Also...if they want to deport honeybees, they must also deport all the imported food crops that honeybees pollinate. Dave Green http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 18:37:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Abelia Subject: queen breeder wanted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, for my information service on my web site I am looking for good, professional queen breeders world wide of the following races (strains): Ligustica Caucasica Mellifera Carnica Capensis. Who can help me? Thanks! Kai ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:32:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Anti-varroa screen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al Needham was kind enough to share with the list some comments concerning use of a screen to prevent mites that drop from the brood nest from climbing onto a bee and re-entering the brood nest. I personally use such a screen and value it highly but want to remind list members of three points from last years discussions on this subject: * creating a space between the screen and the bottom board that cannot be assessed by bees provides a wonderful breeding ground for wax moths! Pollen also falls into this space, and the moth larvae feel like they are in heaven. Several list members commented on having this difficulty, and I was among them. * Once a beekeeper decides to have a screen, and I am among those, there is no good reason to have a bottom board! Let the mites fall through to the ground. There is no reason to put on a bottom board during he winter...at least as far north as Albany, New York. * Studies done in 1998 and published in ABJ during early 1999 showed summer mite reduction of up to 25% when using screens in place of bottom boards. However, by fall mite counts in hives with screened bottoms were equal to those in control hives. These studies were repeated during 1999 by Dr. Nick Calderone at Cornell, and verbally reported at the Empire State Honey Producers meeting during November, 1999. This means that screens should best be looked at as method of deferring the time when Apistan or other treatments need be applied, rather than a means of avoiding such treatments. For those who want to put a screen over bottom boards, Betterbee, as well as Brushy Mountain, sell such items. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:13:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 1/19/00 12:14:19 PM, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << Ironically, it appears that such accusations originate mostly from white members of homo sapiens which is also a highly invasive group of a highly invasive species that outcompetes native groups and cultures and destroys habitat as well as other species... >> Irony and hypocrisy aside, the notion that bees are an unwelcome invasive alien species is ascendant right now. I've talked to or read the comments of publication editors, garden catalogs, gardeners, organic growers and conservationists who are buying into this new story of the honey bee. If it hardens into orthodoxy, beekeeping opportunities in this country could be greatly diminished. I live in an apartment in the city and keep my bees on organic farms that have been established on town conservation land in the suburbs. If a new farmer comes along who has a bad attitude about honey bees, I'm out of luck — the same as if a new conservation officer comes along who believes my bees are harming native pollinator populations and refuses their presence. We need to be more than ironic, we need to be convincing. There have been recent queries posted here about how to keep bees on federal lands. If administrators were to come along who view bees as an unfavorable species, it would make it all the more difficult to gain access. Or even worse, the number of cities and government-managed landscapes — local, state, and federal — that are off-limits to beekeeping by regulation and ordinance may start to accelerate. Beekeepers, unlike others whose livestock grazes on public land, don't have the money or the clout to defend themselves effectively. The effect of keeping bees on native pollinator populations (those that forage on the same flowers as honey bees), except in some localized areas, is probably insignificant, at least relative to the problems of habitat loss and pesticide kills. I fully support research about alternative pollinators — but not at the expense of beekeeping research. And certainly not if the arguments that are made undermine the actitivity of keeping bees in this country. I suspect there are far too many good reasons to fund alternative pollinator research in this country without making honey bees a scapegoat. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:53:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.F. Hensler" Subject: Re: Bees and cotton Comments: To: John Mitchell Yo John: << : JCHenry500@AOL.COM asked: Were the natural pollinators displaced from a niche?>> and then you wrote: I don't know if this is the type information you are looking for or not, but we have found in our hybridizing nursery operation that once we quit using pesticides in order to protect our honey bees we also noticed a dramatic increase in both the numbers and variety of native pollinators working the gardens... Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, Wash. http://www.povn.com/rock ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Bees and cotton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JCHenry500@AOL.COM wrote: > > I have been told that honey bees are an important pollinator of cotton. > Mcgregor agrees. In part... Shishikin (1946) was the first to use the term "saturation pollination" - the uniform distribution of colonies of honey bees among cotton fields. He showed that saturation pollination, at the rate of one- half colony per acre, increased production of cotton 19.5 percent more than areas dependent upon only local pollinators. The increase over cotton grown in cages, excluding all insects, was 43 percent. .... In a sense, Babadzhanov (1953) duplicated the test by Kearney (1923) and obtained a similar benefit from supplemental pollination. He reported that it increased the boll set of cultivar '108-F' by 30 percent, the raw cotton per boll by 5 to 10 percent, the seed germination from 93 percent in selfed seed to 98 percent in cross-pollinated seed, and decreased the motes by 12.5 percent. Ter-Avanesyan (1952) showed that crossing within the cultivar varied with the cultivar tested: 8.4 percent in 'Sreder', 14.4 in '8582', and 22 percent in '915'. These tests were supported in theory by Miravalle (1964), who compared the effects of bulked pollen from several plants with pollen from one flower of the same selection. He found that 76 percent of the bolls set, with 34.47 viable seeds per boll, when the flowers were pollinated with bulked pollen, but only 70 percent set, with only 27.07 seeds per boll, when the flowers were pollinated with pollen from one flower of the same plant. ...In their test, 'Pima S-1' produced 24.5 percent more cotton in cages with bees than in cages without bees. This increase was caused by the set of more bolls, with more seeds per boll. The presence of bees did not increase total production of upland 'A-33' or 'A- 44', but the crop set earlier. In an area with a short season, this effect would doubtless be reflected in a greater total yield. Also, the cotton was handpicked, with extreme care taken to collect every seed. If machine harvesting had been used, doubtless more cotton would have been collected where there were fewest motes - in the bee cages. The lock usually breaks if motes are prevalent, and the remaining lint remains unharvested in the base of the burr. ... Honeybees are an important pollinator of cotton however, (in more ways than 1) it does not necessarily mean that we are chasing out the natural pollinators. When the Europeans arrived on this continent, there was not the widespread cultivation that is present now. Natural pollinators would not be able to handle the shifting presence of food plants available infrequently throughout the year. As it is we must introduce and remove pollinators periodically. In order to effectively pollinate the crops we need more pollinators than those supportable year round. When I pollinate and bring in honeybees to pollinate blueberries (for example) I remind that the honeybees should be seen as supplementary and advise the creation of habitat for additional pollinators. It is in the best interest of the farmer to have to have a diverse group of pollinators as they all have their own advantages. Bumble bees will work in cooler weather, rainier and earlier in fog for instance. Thom Bradley Thom's Honeybees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:24:00 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: A bit about the apidictor plus something different Comments: To: Rex Boys , John Burgess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex, The video stated the egg transfer as a "fact", but no evidence. Has anyone else any knowledge of this ? John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru, The Welsh Beekeeper > 1) Did the Australian video witness the transfer of worker eggs to the queen > cells? Was it presented as a theory or as a proven fact? > Rex Boys > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:50:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a "Nature" PBS program aired in our area last night the topic was consciousness in the philosophical sense of "Being and Consciousness". The honeybee was used as an example of elementary consciousness in animals. They placed as proof of consciousness in honeybees by stating (as close as possible) honeybees visualize their surroundings. They think in pictures. For comparison, humans think in language and words. They placed as proof of this visualization a demonstration. They captured a numbered bee that was a forager trained to goto a feeding station. Placed in an opaque container and moved to a location away from the capture point the bee flew directly to the feeding station. In addition the "expert" explained that since honeybees spent such a large portion of their time actually resting, this was proof that "and he was sure of" the bee sitting and thinking of the activities of the day. She would sit at the end of the day and run through her mind the images processed during the events of the day to prepare for the next day. To me the premise was shaky. The demonstration showed that a honeybee transported to a new location could return directly to a known point. This was "known" to beekeepers some time ago. However, I reject it as proof it is done by visualization of surroundings. Just off the top of my head, other possible solutions could be, an internal inertial navigation, navigation by sun, or sensitivity to magnetic fields. While I hold none of these as the true nature of navigation I simply hold them up as reasonable a conclusion as the one which they base their argument. Visualization was very important to their basis of a claim of consciousness. Thom Bradley Thom's Honeybees Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:08:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "John C. Scafe" Subject: Resistance to Pyrethrums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that varroa mites are not the only insects developing resistance to pyrethrums (Apistan's fluvalinate is a synthetic pyrethroid). The February 2000 issue of Consumer Reports magazine on page 49 has an article head lice resistance to various medications. They say: "Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health recently reported that head lice collected from children in Massachusetts and Idaho are no longer killed by permethrin, the active ingredient in "Nix," the nation's best-selling lice shampoo. The researchers didn't test pyrethrum, the active ingredient in other over-the-counter lice shampoos, but it's likely that lice are growing resistant to it as well because it's so widely used." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 23:08:14 +1300 Reply-To: happy.valley.honey@xtra.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dot Rawnsley Organization: Happy Valley Honey Subject: Bees and grapes Comments: To: BEE-L@CNSIBM.ALBANY.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have experience with their bees creating a nuisance in vineyards when the grapes are ripe and being picked? Is there any way to lessen the problem apart from moving the bees? They sting the pickers and congregate in the bins of sweet crushed grapes. Ben New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 10:19:13 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Honeybee consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All An interesting e mail from Thom Bradley (as always). I am wondering if we are not falling into our normal trap - we see everything from our own viewpoint. Possibly a good place to start but it is not the sine quo non. Maybe the bee has a method of communicating with the world totally unknown to us and which may remain forever a closed book. We are perhaps in the same position vis a vis the bee, as we would be in the presence of an extra terrestrial. After all, the bee is on the planet about 40 million years longer than us. It was practicing complex navigation, an awareness of chemistry and other 'scientific' feats, when we were grunting and fighting with our bare hands. Another interesting thing about the bee is that we understand that it underwent considerable change during its first 10 million years on the planet. And then the changes stopped. Man is on the planet for about 1 million years. Mind you it may be a moot point as to whether we have really developed in that time - we are still communicating in much the same way and the fighting has remained our central activity!. So an organism that was 'developing' for 1 million years is trying to understand one that was developing for 10 million years and has spent the last 30 million years happy with that development. Trying to learn about the bee is praiseworthy - but comparing it to our methods is crass arrogance in my view. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 07:03:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Bees and grapes Comments: To: happy.valley.honey@xtra.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dot Rawnsley wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with their bees creating a nuisance in > vineyards when the grapes are ripe and being picked? Is there any way > to lessen the problem apart from moving the bees? They sting the > pickers and congregate in the bins of sweet crushed grapes. > Ben > New Zealand Dot, If they are giving that much trouble at that time, there is nothing blooming providing nectar. They are after the sweet juice in the broken grapes. Congratulations on the high sugar content. Can I have some? I love the big juicy winery grapes. The way to keep them from the grapes is to provide them something more attractive at that time. There are 2 ways to do this, provide them with a suitable plant, or provide them with a substitute. Plant a crop around the edges of the field that provide nectar when you are at harvest. Provide a feeding station(s) that is more attractive than the grapes. 55 gallon barrels or trash cans of a higher concentrate sugar water will attract them, especially if it is primed so it smells a bit like honey. Remember to keep them away from the hives so as to keep the robbing down. Thom Bradley Chesapeake, VA http://groups.hamptonroads.com/beekeepers The caledar has been updated. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:09:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bees and grapes Comments: To: happy.valley.honey@xtra.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/20/00 3:46:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, happy.valley.honey@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: << Does anyone have experience with their bees creating a nuisance in vineyards when the grapes are ripe and being picked? Is there any way to lessen the problem apart from moving the bees? They sting the pickers and congregate in the bins of sweet crushed grapes. >> Are you sure they are bees? Yellow jackets and wasps create such a problem here, but honeybees don't have mouths capable of breaking a grape's skin. Sometimes bees will come in to join after other insects have broken the skin, but grape juice is not their favorite food. They much prefer nectar, and will happily go to it if it is available. Perhaps your vinyard is too "clean." Some goldenrod or other late blooming flower will keep them happily occupied so they won't be pesky. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:21:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gothoney@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness/more MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I work with mentally sick people and honeybees. I can usually tell (excluding fakery) if an English speaking person is mentally ill or not because this is my language. I cannot tell if someone who speaks another language is speaking gibberish or not. Likewise with the bees, they too are speaking a foreign language. There is not a reliable way to interpret there meanings since they are using symbols intended for "like minded" organisms. Alan Turning, a computer expert, now dead, pondered whether computers could become conscious too. His test was a pragmatic one. If by typing into a computer and carrying on a dialogue, if you could not tell whether the computer was intelligent then you must assume that it was. Some interesting computer programs that mimic the psyc-babble are amazingly people-like. Bridging the species communication gap as being attempted with dolphins, apes, etc. is frontier research. Honeybees that talk in angles and distances may seem to have consciousness because we can overhear their exchanges but what test can we use to convience ourself that they are consiously aware. Much of our communication is subconscoius, so perhaps, all of theirs is, and so conscoiusness may not be a needed assumption. Remember the Ocam Razor(sic) principle, don't needless multiply your assumptions. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:06:40 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Swarm Prediction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These are the comments I promised on the last three years Bee-L=20 postings about the electronic swarm predictor invented by the=20 late E.F.Woods and which he called the Apidictor. With 3 years=20 to cover, it is not surprising that there are about 1700=20 thought-provoking words here and I suggest you print it out and=20 settle down in an armchair to read it. The items are more or less=20 in reverse date order.=20 On 4th Jan. Chris Slade mentioned that he had heard the queen=20 pipe when he nearly squashed her or otherwise put her in danger.=20 I, too, once heard a pipe on September 30th when the brood box=20 cover came off with a snap. Normally piping is an indication=20 that she has detected the proximity of another queen, but maybe=20 it is also a general sense of danger. Eddie Woods had an unusual=20 method of finding the queen. He would break open a queen cell,=20 get some of the contents on his finger and move it across the=20 frames. When his finger got near the queen, she piped. Of course,=20 people who breed and package queens hear piping all the time.=20 Several people have been wondering how to calibrate their=20 home-made apidictors. Unfortunately there is nothing in Eddie's=20 papers to indicate how he did it and I suggest the answer is to=20 suck it and see.=20 Whichever method of indication is used, calibration is necessary.=20 You can use a constant gain amplifier driving a meter with a=20 calibrated scale or you can use a constant level indicator with a=20 calibrated gain control. Ideally, it would be nice if you could=20 calibrate it in 'days until swarm' but colonies vary so much that=20 predictions can only be approximate. That is why you have to use=20 coloured bands. An indication in the red area means that the=20 warble is loud, you must open up and look for queen cells. The=20 green area means that the warble is quiet, there is no need to=20 inspect because they will not yet have started queen cells.=20 Between these two, there is a mushy, uncertain area where you=20 should come back in a few days and expect to find a red=20 indication; I have a feeling that in later models Eddie put a=20 band of yellow paint in this area.=20 Bear in mind that it is no good trying to calibrate on a single=20 hive; you must have as many measurements as you can get in order=20 to get a sensible average.=20 Under Murphy's law, you then find that the meter (or gain) is at=20 the top end of the scale a week before the swarm, you have to=20 make an adjustment to the preset and start all over again. The=20 swarming season is short and you run out of time until next year.=20 Remember that Eddie had access to an apiary with 1,000 hives.=20 For these he would have used a microphone on a stick, through the=20 hive entrance but for permanent use, the best place is a hole in=20 the hive wall, near the top of the frames, covered on the inside=20 with black polythene.=20 Back in November, somebody wondered about microphones getting=20 propolised. Of course, this would only happen if you left it in=20 the hive for long periods but a piece of black polythene sheet,=20 renewed every year would let the sound through all right. Eddie=20 used crystal microphones because they were cheap (used in all=20 hearing aids) and had a high output with no need for great=20 fidelity. Also, they did not need a battery like the modern=20 electret ones do.=20 Mention has been made of the bee tone analyser made in Sweden by=20 Mr. Vancata. I have to be careful what I say about this because=20 he is a Bee-L subscriber! One beekeeper wrote to him for=20 details, only to be told that since it is a commercial item=20 offered for sale, they could not expect to receive information=20 that would allow them to make their own. Quite right too! In the=20 ABJ article he explained that the frequency filter was=20 continuously tunable and to me this makes it sound more like a=20 laboratory instrument used for spectrum analysis. However, he=20 must have misunderstood the apidictor which he claimed tuned to=20 only 3 frequencies. In fact it had a 3-position switch which=20 allowed you to listen to:-=20 1) The complete hive noise, i.e. all frequencies at once.=20 2) All the frequencies between 225 and 285Hz, covering just the=20 warble and blotting out everything else.=20 3) Only those frequencies above 3,000 Hz, thus separating out the=20 hiss.=20 Thus it was a simple instrument for doing a quick check of=20 whether or not the colony was planning to swarm within the next 3=20 weeks.=20 The Bee Tone Analyser, on the other hand, tunes from 180 -550Hz=20 but only lets you hear one note at a time. Hence, you cannot=20 listen to the hiss at all and you have to twiddle the knob to=20 cover the spectrum of the warble. Undoubtedly the modern active=20 filters are smaller and more efficient than the old passive ones=20 but do they come in band pass and high pass versions which are=20 what you need for this job? (Being long retired I am out of touch=20 with such matters) If I have got anything wrong here, I hope Mr.=20 Vancata will post an enlightening contribution.=20 While I think of it, I have a feeling that the warble and the=20 queenless moan are the same thing, the moan being the warble=20 taken to the limit. There's a highly significant thought that=20 deserves a discussion on its own!=20 While I am in this mode, I'll deal with the other group of people=20 who got excited about using computer software to analyse the=20 sound. The phrase that comes to mind here is about the tail=20 wagging the dog. It's all very well but it means recording the=20 sound and taking it back to the computer, doesn't it? By the=20 time you know whether the colony is going to swarm, they've gone.=20 Does the computer software include band pass and high pass=20 filters?=20 Another consideration was the viability of the instrument and=20 what price people would pay. Eddie always stressed that the time=20 saving factor applied mainly to commercial beekeepers. In the=20 swarming season, brood box inspections have to be done every 8=20 days taking about 15 minutes each, but 90% of these are wasted=20 because no swarm preparations are found. Also, colony=20 disturbance results in a sizeable loss of honey, I am told. An=20 apidictor check takes 30 seconds so you save 14.5 minutes x 90%=20 of your hives every 8 days. I gave a more detailed calculation in=20 my posting on this site dated 10th January where the answer came=20 out at a saving of 217 man hours per year for somebody with100=20 hives. Multiply this by the wage rate in the country where you=20 live and you can judge how worthwhile it is. Even for a one-man=20 business who does not have to pay wages, it would mean he could=20 keep that many more hives.=20 Back in March, Tom Barrett questioned my figure of 4,000 for the=20 number of nurse bees in a hive but here again it is a question of=20 simple arithmetic. We are talking about the time of year when=20 activity is at its peak. There are 60,000 bees in the colony=20 working themselves to death in 6 weeks; let's call it 40 days.=20 Divide 60,000 by 40 and it is obvious that there are 1,500 1-day=20 old bees, 1500 2-day old bees............1500 39-day old bees and=20 1500-40 day old bees and, of course, the queen is laying 1,500=20 eggs a day. The period when a bee's body is producing food is=20 from 4.5 to 6days old; these are the nurse bees. With 1,500 at 6=20 days old, 1,500 at 5 days old and 750 at 4.5 days old this adds=20 up to 3,750 which I reckon is near enough 4,000. QED.=20 Several contributors regarded the apidictor as a flop, which it=20 was, because beekeepers were too conservative and non-technical.=20 The professional entomologists of the day were offended by this=20 upstart engineer who started telling them how bees functioned and=20 they didn't really have the technical knowledge to understand=20 what he was talking about. One, who shall be nameless because he=20 is a Bee-L subscriber, persuaded a queen to pipe while breathing=20 helium in an experiment which actually proved that her breathing=20 tubes were less than 10 inches long! Even if the apidictor was=20 a flop then, it was taken up with enthusiasm by more far-sighted=20 beekeepers, some are still using it today and only last year I=20 was instrumental in getting two repaired for desperate users.=20 Quite a number went to Australasia, I understand and I'd like to=20 contact a discussion group in that continent if anybody knows of=20 one. Bee-L is clearly made up of Northern Hemisphere folk.=20 Well done Chris Slade for finding that 1965 Kimpton Bros. letter.=20 I wrote to them 20 years ago but there was nobody left in the=20 firm who remembered the existence of the apidictor. The=20 manufacturers had lost their identity in a series of takeovers=20 and there was no way of getting technical information.=20 Eddie's widow passed me on to their son in Yorkshire who gave me=20 what papers still existed and a few artefacts which I passed on=20 to IBRA. It was because I felt that his name deserved to be=20 kept alive that I wrote the book 'Listen to the Bees' which you=20 can get from Northern Bee Books, Scout Bottom Farm, Mytholmroyd,=20 Hebden Bridge, Yorkshire, HX7 5JS, UK. Tel:01422 882751,=20 Fax:01422 886157, e-mail NBB@Recordermail.demon.co.uk Postage=20 paid price is =A31.50 in the UK and $3.00 to the USA. It's not=20 just about the apidictor but about all the sounds made by bees=20 and it includes my own revolutionary theory that the buzzing=20 sound actually contributes to the bee's aerodynamics.=20 Thanks to the kindness of Barry Birkey of Chicago, the circuit=20 diagram and other data on the apidictor can now be downloaded=20 from his web site on www.beesource.com using Adobe Acrobat Reader=20 version 3 or above.(which you can also get from the site)=20 Rex Boys.=20 19.1.00=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:25:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steven Jones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Boys wrote: > While I am in this mode, I'll deal with the other group of people > who got excited about using computer software to analyse the > sound. The phrase that comes to mind here is about the tail > wagging the dog. It's all very well but it means recording the > sound and taking it back to the computer, doesn't it? By the > time you know whether the colony is going to swarm, they've gone. > Does the computer software include band pass and high pass > filters? Using a PC to perform the analysis doesn't necessarily require one to go back to their home base. A low powered laptop with a sound card (486 or possibly a 386) could perform this task quite well (assuming you're using DOS based software) On any given day, EBAY lists dozens of used, but still perfectly working laptops, often under $100 USD. A laptop in the beeyard could provide the additional advantage of being able to keep records with a database or spreadsheet program. However, in my ideal world, I wouldn't need to take my laptop into the beeyard with me at all. I would leave the laptop in the truck (powered by the truck's 12V system) and then use some sort of wireless microphone/headset combination to transmit sounds from the hive back to the PC. The results would then be sent back to me in some form of audio through the headphones. The big advantage in both of these situations is that the logic and functionality wouldn't be restricted by a specific piece of hardware. Rather, it would be a function of whatever a software engineer creates. From there, the marginal cost of reproducing and distributing software would be close to nil. But then again, I got into beekeeping because I wanted to do something that didn't involve computers. Go figure... S. R. Jones NW Oregon, USA ----------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://email.lycos.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:35:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: Resistance to Pyrethrums In-Reply-To: <200001200443.XAA00497@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 19 Jan 00, at 16:08, John C. Scafe wrote: > It appears that varroa mites are not the only insects developing > resistance to pyrethrums (Apistan's fluvalinate is a synthetic > pyrethroid). The February 2000 issue of Consumer Reports magazine on > page 49 has an article head lice resistance to various medications. > They say: I understand that many agricultural/horticultural pests that have been treated with pyrethroids have developed resistance, I seem to recall the Soil Association in the UK stating this. > "Researchers at the Harvard School of Public Health recently reported > that head lice collected from children in Massachusetts and Idaho are > no longer killed by permethrin, the active ingredient in "Nix," the > nation's best-selling lice shampoo. The researchers didn't test > pyrethrum, the active ingredient in other over-the-counter lice > shampoos, but it's likely that lice are growing resistant to it as > well because it's so widely used." My wife is a school teacher and I have 3 young children, from time to time some of them have proved positive to the nit-comb test. In the UK, 'approved' (as obtained from the dispensary) head lice treatments are rotated each year with 3 different 'niticides'. I saw some research on the television a couple of years ago which showed that one of the treatments (based on an organo-phosphate chemical) produced horrendously high levels of the chemical in the child's blood stream. I'm no scientist but rubbing toxic chemicals into a child's scalp doesn't exactly sound like a good idea. Concerned parents could do well to take a leaf from the beekeeper's book of Varroa mite control - - Produce strains of 'hygienic' child which have well developed grooming habits. - Utilise the method promulgated by Dr. Rodriguez and apply hair conditioner or oil to the child's scalp before bed time and rinse in the morning. This appears to kill head lice very effectively. Further grooming/reapplication may be necessary to catch the eggs. I haven't had head lice myself which is probably due to the fact that I try to keep wife and children at a sensible distance at all times. Or maybe because I haven't much hair left. Joe Hemmens ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 14:22:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Swarm Prediction Comments: To: "sci.ag.bee" In-Reply-To: <200001201933.OAA21439@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > ...it means recording the > > sound and taking it back to the computer, doesn't it?... > Using a PC to perform the analysis doesn't necessarily require one to > go back to their home base... > I would leave the laptop in the truck > (powered by the truck's 12V system) and then use some sort of > wireless microphone/headset combination to transmit sounds from the > hive back to the PC. Jerry is talking cheap transducers in every hive, and satellite links to relay hive activity data to any *remote* location anywhere on this planet -- or off. This is not science fiction. He is already doing this. Students who have never been to his apiaries are able to conduct experiments at schools far distant, I understand. For possible software interfaces interpreting data, he has created a simulation, complete with alarms, etc.. I have seen it. Very impressive. Visit his observation hive page, accessible from my page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ under "Observation Hives'. Here's another idea for sound observation: if you take a parabolic or spherical reflector and mount a microphone at the correct point on its axis, you will get a very sensitive device that can hear faint sounds at great distance. Such a cheap and simple device was described using a child's sliding toy - the 'Flying Saucer' as the reflector some time back. Such a device could be fixed mounted, aimed at each hive in succession -- and possibly hear what needs to be heard. Sound is a funny thing. Bomber pilots used to use throat mics with great success. There is the old eavesdropping trick of holding one's ear to a glass held against the wall. Windows in a room vibrate when people speak, and some snoopers use this diaphragm effect for listening. Polling lasers could notice the slight up/down movements in hives mounted on foam or rubber and deduce weight changes from a distance. There are many tricks that could result in economical harvesting of data, and, now -- just recently -- there have been developed economical ways of relaying and processing them to give useful and meaningful output. Can this be applied to everyday beekeeping? I think so, and the process is starting right here. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:00:27 -0500 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Southwestern Ohio Beekeeper School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are invited to attend one of the largest and most educational beekeeping schools in the State of Ohio. The program is designed to be educational for anyone interested in honeybees, with programs for the beginning and experienced beekeeper. The school will be held on Saturday, March 11, 2000 at Cincinnati Princeton High School. Pre-registration is required and is due by March 3, 2000. The cost is $18.00 for adults, and $10.00 for youth 17 and under. You can view a list of topics to be covered and download a registration form at the following site: http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~warr/ag/bschool.htm Judy in Kentucky, USA for the Southwestern Ohio Beekeeper School Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:13:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/19/00 3:57:00 PM, Thombrad@VISI.NET writes: <> You're right, in my opinion, that the premises of this show were shakey. First, we have no way of knowing how bees see the world. We have only theories and speculation. Second, humans think first in images; language and words are the inadequate vehicles that roughly approximate the content of our minds. It's analogous to looking at a printed photo of something versus looking at the real thing: Our eyes see the full range of color (as we experience it) while the printing press can only produce a more limited spectrum of colors. Before theories such as bee visualization are advanced in the mass media, at least some modicum of supporting evidence, even theory-dependent data, should be available. I'm aware of none for visualization among honey bees. "Shooting the bull" on sci.ag.beekeeping is one thing, shooting the bull on PBS is another. John ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 21:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and all, You came as close to the truth as we can come. > > Maybe the bee has a method of communicating with the world totally unknown > to us and which may remain forever a closed book. We are perhaps in the same > position vis a vis the bee, as we would be in the presence of an extra > terrestrial. The honeybee and its behaviour has always been a spark for mans imagination and study.We work hard to understand there behaviour with some natural blinders on , as we seek the truth.We can only work with our plane of thought with all of its biases and prejudices.I enjoy the journey observing all of nature around me.My honeybees bring great wonder to me.To watch the variance in behaviour between hives and blood lines , makes me feel very lacking in the true understanding of the honeybee.The more I think I know, the more questions I have. We are very lucky to have Apis Mellifera to study and talk about. Buts its mans ego that gets in the way of a more complete understanding in ones lifetime. I enjoy to read everyone's ideas and thoughts that are posted here.We have a considerable amount of knowledge on this list.We all can learn, there is no cornner on the market of understanding Apis Mellifera. Many parts make up the whole. Enjoy all of the questions that spring up in your head as you watch your bees. Also we should be very thankful of all of those researchers that are spending there lives trying to uncover some more truths about the Honeybee.We have some great ones. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:27:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> In The Hive and the Honey Bee, Norman Gary writes: The potential exposure to many dances, as well as the time delay between exposure to dances and leaving the hive to forage, may be thought of as a mechanism that is parallel to the decision making process of the human mind. In bees then the various alternative food sources are "reviewed and compared" during exposure to multiple dances of different bees. Ultimately the most stimulating food sources attract the most foraging activity. (pg. 290) Gary doesn't cite any sources for this theorizing, but I find him far more credible than the PBS show. Does anybody know if there is research to support Gary's theory? John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor Sten Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1951 the entomologist N. Tinbergen showed that a whasp Philanthus Triangulum (which dig holes in the ground for burying prey insects as food for its larvae) uses a mental picture of the location of the dug hole, to find it on return with prey. Books on whasps often shows a drawing of how the experiment was done. Since bees are a not too distant relative of whasps I, gullible as I may be, take this as proof of bees conciousness. If one were to serach on Tinbergen on say google.com the said picture is likely to be found. Viktor in Hawkesbury, On. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:58:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness, what level? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > ... uses a mental picture of the location the hole ... as proof of bees > conciousness. In the world of psychology there is a big distinction between rote memory (a mental picture of the location the hole) and conciousness (thinking about the hole, wondering about the hole, having thoughs about ways to make the hole better, bigger, more round, able to hold more prey). Most writings assert that the limited size of a honey bee brain is only capable of the former (rote memory) but insufficient to attain the latter (cogitation). Personally, I'll go with Tom Barrett's theory that they (honey bees) are interpreting their (our) world on a totally different plane, an alien plane if you will. Aaron Morris - thinking we think too much! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:12:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: queens measuring cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Last week someone mentioned that it could be the size of the cell and pressure on the abdomen that causes the queen to fertilize or not fertilize the egg. This fired a few synapses and I went back and reread Hubers 8th letter. In this experiment he only allowed the queen to have drone size comb, she was initially quite confused by this but eventually laid fertilized eggs, albeit in may cases she laid multiple eggs per cell. This observation would seem to belie the theory of pressure causing the spermateca to release sperm. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:45:19 -0500 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Re: Resistance to Pyrethrums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "..... by permethrin, the active ingredient in "Nix," the nation's best-selling lice shampoo. " Makes one wonder if this "Nix" offers any application of some sort to bee hives ? Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 08:54:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Boschman Organization: @Home Network Member Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Second, humans think first in images; language and > words are the inadequate vehicles that roughly approximate the content of our > minds. As a beekeeper who also has an almost useless doctorate in English Literature, I feel compelled to reply to this. Post-modern theorizing about the nature of human language has pretty much demolished the notion that we have thoughts distinct from words. On the contrary, we think **in** language. To say that thought exists apart from that--from words--is to leave ourselves open to the purely speculative possibility that human consciousness has some sort of essential, transcendent quality, and very few academics want to go that way. "The sign-system of language," as one theorist writes, "does not act simply as a transparent window on to an established 'reality.'" And the related issue of honey bee consciousness gets even more complicated when we look at human brain research and listen to what, for instance, neurologist Antonio R. Damasio says in a recent edition of Scientific American: "Conducting an investigation with the very instrument being investigated makes both the definition of the problem and the approach to a solution especially complicated." In other words, it should not be easy to say anything at all about honey bee "language" and "consciousness" when there is so much work to be done regarding the nature of our own. Great care should be taken here. As usual, we fall back on the cautious, painstaking scientific method. Robert Boschman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 16:50:10 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Re: queens measuring cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Dave Hamilton's posting, if a queen is presented solely with drone cells, she will sense that something is amiss and get confused. The fact that she then behaves in an irrational manner by laying worker eggs any way, does not surprise me, and certainly does not persuade me that my theory is untenable. Rex Boys ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 11:39:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that Apistan has proven to be ineffective in many places has the price come down any? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:57:36 MST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed BEE-L Moderators normally reject posts that contain a lot of quotes or have serious formatting problems. We don't normally notify the writer, but even if the post is returned to sender, the writer often does not re-submit --for wahtever reasons. Nonetheless, we hate to see any interesting post lost, so we're going to try cutting the good info from posts that don't make the grade and present it in a weekly digest. As always, opinions are not facts. Use with caution. Here's the first attempt. NOTE: Since this the first effort, there may be some duplications or omissions. Please bear with us. ---- Subject: Re: FW: Granulated Honey & Microwave grafics on http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/EnzThem.html regards, jant --- From: Subject: Re: queen breeder wanted Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 06:28:03 +0100 Hello, for answering to your question, you can visit my web site www.beekeeping.com/ruchers-de-camargue (in french). I spent quite a lot of energy for finding the true caucasian bees, but I especially use them for hybridize them with mellifica drones, and now with ligustica drones. For my environment, hybrid bees with a 50% caucasian genome are the best. You also can visit 2 sites of friends of mine : www.apiculture.com/georgian-queens and www.apiculture.com/malka Bye, François SERVEL --- Subject: Re: Resistance to Pyrethrums Natural pyrethrum shouldn't be confused with synthetic pyrethroids like fluvalinate and permethrin. Natural pyrethrum is derived for the crushed flower petals of a certain variety of chrysanthemums grown in Kenya and Australia. It has been used for insect control for centuries. Significant resistance problems have rarely developed in all this time. Unlike man made pyrethroids, natural pyrethrum degrades quickly in the presence of air and light. It is expensive ($155 per pound wholesale and the supply is unpredictable). Several years ago, natural pyrethrum was widely used in head lice preparations, but manufacturers may have switched to permethrin to lower costs and increase profitability or because of the unpredictable supply of natural pyrethrum. Insect resistance to synthetics is much more of a long term problem than with the natural stuff. Head lice manufacturers may switch back to natural pyrethrum is there is a big resistance problem with permethrin. Paul Cherubini, Placerville, CA --- From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Bees and grapes Dot, If they are giving that much trouble at that time, there is nothing blooming providing nectar. They are after the sweet juice in the broken grapes. Congratulations on the high sugar content. Can I have some? I love the big juicy winery grapes. The way to keep them from the grapes is to provide them something more attractive at that time. There are 2 ways to do this, provide them with a suitable plant, or provide them with a substitute. Plant a crop around the edges of the field that provide nectar when you are at harvest. Provide a feeding station(s) that is more attractive than the grapes. 55 gallon barrels or trash cans of a higher concentrate sugar water will attract them, especially if it is primed so it smells a bit like honey. Remember to keep them away from the hives so as to keep the robbing down. Thom Bradley ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Viktor Sten wrote: > In 1951 the entomologist N. Tinbergen showed that a wasp Philanthus > Triangulum (which digs holes in the ground for burying prey insects as food > > for its larvae) uses a mental picture of the location of the dug hole, to > find it on return with prey. If one were to search on Tinbergen on say > google.com the said picture is likely to be found. At the urging of this interesting tip, I did a search, which turned up two of the original articles by Nicolaas Tinbergen, published in German Journals. These are: Tinbergen, N. and W. Kruyt 1938. Zeitschrift f. Vergleich. Physiol. 25:292. "Uber die Orientierung des Bienenwolfes (Philanthrus triangularus Fabr.) III. Die Bevorzugung bestimmter Wegmarken. and Tinbergen, N., and W. Kruyt 1938. Biol. Zentr. 58:425. "Uber die Orientierung des Bienenwolfes (Philanthrus triangularus Fabr.) IV. Heimflug aus bekannten Gebiet. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:01:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lori Quillen Subject: A Question on the History of FIRFRA's Bee Protection... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello!! I was wondering if anyone knew the history behind FIFRA's inclusion of bee protection on pesticide labels. The language is vague- citing protection for "bees." I was wondering if this was intentionally done to include native bees? [If that is the case- I am sad that it did not cover "pollinators" in general.] I was hoping someone out there in Bee Land might know what/who prompted this protective measure in the 70's. I've gotten the impression that a lot of applicators still translate the word "bees'" into "managed bees," and your past posts about Mosquito Spraying support this notion. This interpretation allows applicators to fall back on beekeeper notification schemes, instead of more inclusive bee monitoring. This hurts both managed and native bees, and seems to be in violation of written law. Any insight into he wording of this label law would be wonderful! Thanks! Lori Quillen Feel free to e-mail me direct at: cakefight9@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: History of FIFRA's bee protection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lori Quillen asks about the history of bee protection. >From Washington State: I was told when I went to work for the Department of Agriculture in 1977 that bee protection efforts started with the introduction of Sevin dust as an insecticide on sweet corn (late 60's early 70's?), and maybe other crops at the same time. The dust was put on with aircraft and it landed on corn tassels and other plant parts as a control for corn ear worm. The bees picked it up in their pollen collecting behavior and carried it back to the hive where it was stored with pollen in the comb. In this location it killed bees until all the contaminated pollen was used as bee food or the combs were removed from the hive by the beekeeper. Though the original discussions was mainly about commercial colonies of Apis Mellifera they also included concerns about native pollinators. EPA in recent discussions have reaffirmed their interest in protecting all pollinators. Their words were: If we protect honey bees we will protect other pollinators at the same time. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com