From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:45 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06253 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01939 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01939@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0001D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 167280 Lines: 3588 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 00:06:56 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Honeybee consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All During this thread, we have discussed the dichotomy between mankind and the bees. The bees seem to have established themselves as a species that has evolved almost to perfection. Their communication skills, their awareness of the need to act selflessly has marked them out as something special. A comment by Aaron Morris has prompted me to wonder, could it be possible that the human species is the true alien on this planet?. If I were an inhabitant of another world, and I landed on this earth, would I consider that an organism that destroyed its environment was intelligent?. Or would I be swayed in the direction of granting that prize to an organism such as the bee, that dutifully carried out its activities over millions of years, enriching itself and also laterally these other selfish human creatures which have been bent on the destruction of everything since they appeared on the planet?. We surely live in a strange world! In common with all of the other members of this list, I have more questions than answers. Perhaps that is the way it will always be. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 23:19:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gordon Hayes Subject: Re: queens measuring cells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colin Butler, in his book entitled, "The World of the Honeybee"; 1974 revision; p. 43, states that the problem with the theory that pressure is exerted on the abdomen of the queen when laying in a worker-sized cell, therefore causing the egg to be fertilized. This as opposed to the larger size of the drone cell not exerting pressure and allowing the laying of an unfertilized egg is this (and I quote): "The obvious difficulty with this theory is that it fails to explain how it is that a queen will on occasion lay fertilised (sic) worker-eggs in cells that are only partially built and whose sides are far too short to exert any pressure whatsoever on her abdomen." The most plausible explanation is that for some reason the queen chooses not to allow sperm through the oviduct to fertilize the egg. I believe that when the queen checks out the cells before laying in them, she receives some stimuli which causes this action to occur. Hope this is not taken as coming from a smart-alek. That is not the intent. I am no expert on bees. I just wanted to show that this theory has been looked at before. And that there are some problems with it. Gordon Hayes New Harmony, Indiana, USA flashgh@evansville.net http://www.evansville.net/~flashgh http://www.sixfigureincome.com/?122477 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hamilton" To: Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 9:12 AM Subject: queens measuring cells > Last week someone mentioned that it could be the size of the cell and > pressure on the abdomen that causes the queen to fertilize or not fertilize > the egg... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 07:08:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: cause effect MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I am hungry I go to the fridge. I suppose that is returning = to a known food source. If someone came to my environment and moved = the food from the fridge without telling me I would return also. =20 species egotism =20 arnold jones ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:28:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness In-Reply-To: <200001220500.AAA18426@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings, That bees have a "mental map" is certainly evident to anyone who has attempted to move a hive a short distance; in fact there is an old saying that it is easier to move a hive 10 miles than 100 feet. Suppose you have a hive in the backyard and you want it in the front. If you just move it, you will soon find a large number of foragers flying in circles about the position of the old hive. If you put an empty hive that "looks like" the original one, they will start streaming into it. If you put a hive of, say a different color or size, the will go in, but less eagerly. *It appears* that they are comparing the situation to their "image" of how it was, or should be. Now, if you really want to succeed in moving this hive form the front yard to back, and not lose your field force, you must start by moving it a couple of feet. The bees look for their hive where it was and then look nearby, soon finding it. After a couple of days, move it again. Now they are "expecting" it to not be exactly where it was and they are more inclined to hunt a bit. Continue moving the hive- you can even move it a little farther each time because they have "learned" that it isn't going to be exactly where it was. The whole process can be performed in about a month. Another way to do it is to move the hive in one trip during the winter. When spring comes most of the older bees will have died and the new bees will learn the new spot. Another good example of honey bee mental image is, if you have an apiary that is fairly overgrown with grass or weeds, and you mow it- the bees fly about in circles, obviously confused by the *change in the appearance* of the apiary. Bees forage over a range of about 100 square kilometers (Seeley). Evidently they form a "mental map" of this area and can find their way back to the nest even if they are taken somewhere they haven't been and released (Gould). None of this should be a surprise to anyone who has worked with images on the computer or used a digital camera. Surpisingly complex images can be compressed into an incredibly small space when encoded into binary code. Such a binary code seems to be the way that information is stored in the neural network of various animals, including honeybees. - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu phone: 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:36:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University Subject: Legality of Bee exports In-Reply-To: <200001030502.AAA23145@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All To the bee lits - happy new millenium and excuse my long abscence, various reasons and excuses offered if needed. I have been recieving an alarming number of requests for Cape Honeybee queens, and an equally alarming number of 'Official' documents in various languages to sugest that me selling queens to various countries where cape bees are not around would be perfectly legal. Is it legal to send Apis melifera capensis to other countries - and if it is - why - and if it is not how is this controlled? I hope it is generally not legal, because then law and common sense might for once be seen operating hand in hand. Keep well Garth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:45:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University Subject: Re: Large observation hives In-Reply-To: <200001030502.AAA23145@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi Sarah Last year I assembled a stand inside observation hive with 6 brood frames and two shallows on each side, queen excluders below the shallows and then put shallows right accross to make a look up through the combs roof - it was quite a thing - I had four queens - a mission to combine, a permanent feeded at the top and 50 honey filled super frames accross the roof. The whole thing weighed in at 350+kg, and had a UV tube on the inside and flourescent marked queens and drones. People could go in and tunr on the UV tube and could see the queens and drones instantly. It was very difficult to carry, extremely heavy, and generated so much heat that people who stood inside the perspex walled insides for longer than a few minutes came out with something like heat exhaustion. Dismantling it was slighly more of a problem as when I began to do this the bees began to fight and soon I had three balled queens and was forced to set the hive up with the remaining queen - it occupied three brood boxes (had to add some combs to get the spacing right) and five supers - three weeks later it emitted a large number of swarms (I caught three) and the whole hive depopulated to the point that I have one little cape laying worker colony which is the proud remnant of some of my best beehives. Fun, expensive (It cost me about US$600/SAR3600 which in my neck of the woods is quite a lot) and destroyed a lot of perfectly good production hives. If you would like dimensions so you too can do this, give me a shout - it's worth it!! Keep well Garth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:57:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What bees may think is unfathomable. What is striking is how much more quickly they learn than my ponies, which, considering relative longevity, is probably very necessary. In early Spring I often remove entrance reducers each morning and replace them each evening. Those bees having exited the smaller hole land and waddle in as if the reducer were still in place. Those bees having exited the unreduced entrance fly directly in, landing beneath the slat board. Either bees are stupid because they don't immediately exploit the unreduced entrance, or they are smart to learn to expoit it in one trip. Also, one robbing opportunity suffices quickly to induce robbing. Your choice, stupid or smart. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:08:45 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: A Question on the History of FIRFRA's Bee Protection... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/21/00 5:56:07 PM, jcbach@YVN.COM writes: <> Lori brings up a good point. I see a danger here that pesticide applicators or others whose work may negatively affect wildlife should not be allowed to misconstrue laws in a such a way that care is only necessary if an animal explicitly mentioned in the law is present. However, in relation to the wording mentioned here, I suspect managed bees were only originally intended to be covered because beekeepers suffer economic loss, get really angry, file lawsuits and call politicians. Now tht native pollinators have been recognized, they will be better protected. I'm glad to read from JCBach that the EPA has said it will read that language broadly to include native pollinators as well. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:07:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Honeybee Consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain What is the distinction between consciousness and simple memory? In Fritsch's book, the experiment entitled something like "dances of the pollen collectors" he switches the odor that the scout bees return with. They continue to dance but the forages that previously had paid attention to this dance, ignored them. But other forages that had been watching other bees dance with the new different odor came and participated. This memory of the odor that the bees were currently working leads to what we beekeepers observe about continuing to work one flower before moving onto another nectar source. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 19:46:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Professor Joad of the Brains Trust would say "It all depends what you mean by consciousness". My dictionary gives awareness, thought. A creature with as many sense organs as a bee cannot but be aware, otherwise there would be no point in having them. The next question is what does s/he do, having become aware of stimuli through her sensory organs? Either s/he just reacts to the stimulus in a pre programmed way, perhaps after a genetically related threshold is crossed or else she exercises choice; to visit this flower or that; to work or to rest; to rob or to forage; to sting or not to sting; to feed this larva or that - there are many occasions in her life when a bee may exercise choice. To my mind, if a bee or any other being, does what s/he does on all occasions because s/he can do no other thing this is not consciousness. If the creature chooses to do this or do that, whether for good and sufficient reason, or just on a whim, I would take it to be a sign of consciousness. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:23:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness In-Reply-To: <200001230500.AAA18054@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Christian wrote: If the creature chooses to do this or do that, whether for good and sufficient reason, or just on a whim, I would take it to be a sign of consciousness. Peter: So, what choices does a honeybee colony make? Actually, they make thousands of decisions, constantly throughout the season. Examples would be: given hundreds of species of flowers in bloom, which shall we sample? Given a source which is sweet but not producing profusely versus a less sweet but profuse nectar - which will we work on? Given several hollow trees or caves - which one will we pick to move the swarm to? These are choices that the colony must make. And the fact that the results are not always unanimous *seems to imply* a process of group decision making. The foragers will not all go to the same patch but will exploit multiple patches of flowers. This is important because some sources will stop producing suddenly, thus working multiple sources ensures a more constant flow of nectar (Seeley). Lindaer reported in 1955 that 2 out of 19 swarms he was studying broke cluster without reaching a unanimous decision and tried to depart in two different directions. Camazine says in 1999: "In some way the swarm decides its time to take off." If the bee was working entirely on instinct, the "right" nest would be found and the colony would simply go there. In a choosing situation a consensus must be formed. I just got done reading Seeley's "Wisdom of the Hive" (1995). One point I take issue with is when he says: "I think it is now clear we can think of a honey bee colony as a bag of tricks... evolved through natural selection to solve the various problems faced by the colony. For this reason, it is probably futile to seek grand principles of colony functioning." While it may be true that the hive is basically a machine, I think it is fatal to assume that it is. There is much in life that we do not understand and there is much that will always be a mystery. Science tends toward a reductionist mode of thinking, where all processes can be explaining by the mechanisms that describe them. This point of view is not unanimous, however. "Knowing how the biological machinery works tells one little about how to orchestrate that machinery for diverse purposes. To use an analogy, knowing how a television set produces images in no way explains the nature of the creative programs it transmits. To switch the analogical machinery, the software is not reducible to the hardware. Each is governed by its own set of principles that must be studied in its own right." Albert Bandura, Professor of Psychology at Stanford University. I think science has done a terrific job in getting to the bottom of may of life's mysteries. (They've produced their share of nightmares, too, from gunpowder to nerve gas). Artists and philosopher's, on the other hand, seek to remind us that life is *more* than the sum of its parts, that life was *created* somehow from carbon and water, we may never know how. And I would submit that one *can* be an artist *and* a scientist, although maybe not at the same time... Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu many new photos at: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 15:45:29 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Apidictor v. computer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems to me that there are two different sorts of people involved = here. On one hand you have beekeepers whose main purpose is to find ways of = avoiding swarms. They want a simple single-purpose instrument which = Eddie Woods gave them in the apidictor. He spent 15 years listening to = the bees and identified several sounds in the spectrum of which two gave = indication of swarm intentions. One was the warble which indicated that = the queen was off lay and the colony needed looking at. The other was = the hiss which told him whether or not a swarm was planned. =20 He built a small, simple portable instrument with two knobs, an = indicator and a push-button. In less than 30 seconds the beekeeper could = decide whether or not to open up and inspect for queen cells. Many = beekeepers would welcome a modern equivalent. The other people are the computer enthusiasts who have sound analysis = software and are looking for excuses to use it, however complicated they = are. They are getting carried away and losing sight of the prime = purpose which is to combat swarming. It seems to me that because the = equipment is capable of it, they want to do a complete spectrum analysis = on every visit, repeating what Eddie Woods did 50 years ago. Steven Jones wants to take a lap-top along with his smoker and his bee = box. How long before the keyboard is decorated with propolis? The = apidictor was about a quarter of the size of a lap-top and hung from the = neck in a leather case which also housed the microphone and earpiece. = Steve's alternative is to leave the lap-top in his vehicle and = communicate with it by radio link. I always thought the whole point of = a computer was to look at things on a screen. Could the computer give = him answers without somebody in the cab to press the buttons? Allen Dick visualises using a microphone with a parabolic reflector and = aiming at each hive in turn from a distance. In the first place I think = he is optimistic about the polar diagram of those microphones; they have = a much wider beam than he thinks and he would have difficulty in knowing = which hive he was listening to. Whilst striving to pick up sounds from = inside an inch thick wooden box, he would find lots of competition from = bees flying through the beam, to say nothing of the wind. Then again, = how would he thump the hive in order to activate that vital hiss? Please do not think I want to be a spoil sport but I want to be sure you = know what you are doing which is research into the use of a computer - = not an exercise in swarm prevention. Please go ahead and enjoy = yourself. You may well discover things that Eddie Woods missed but do = please repeat the experiments many times and announce the results only = when you are sure of them. =20 Good Luck. Rex Boys ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 09:28:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark G Spagnolo Subject: Wintering - indoors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been following the recent thread concerning wintering. I am = attempting to winter 50 colonies in a shed. As most of my beekeeping = experience has been in Hawaii, I am in unfamiliar territory! I am located in northern Minnesota. Although we have had a warm winter, = the bees haven't flown since November and won't fly again until late = March. Here are a few questions for discussion: 1. How long can the bees go without a cleansing flight! I am not = certain all hives have good access to the exit holes in the shed. 2. What is the optimum temperature. The shed stays between 10 F and 35 = F. 3. Honey consumption. I left around 100 lbs. per hive. Another other comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 19:22:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bienendude@AOL.COM Subject: swarm lures & traps? bee hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am to do some research for a club report on swarm lures & traps. I had little luck so far with the web and BEE-L archives. Maybe someone can point the way or offer some comments. I know about paper pulp traps but what lures are used? Pheremones? How can one have better luck luring swarms into an empty hive? Swarms like cedar trees but why? Thanks, Harry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:58:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Apidictor v. computer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/23/00 12:30:17 PM, RexBoys@WESTMANCOTE.FREESERVE.CO.UK writes: <> Thump the hive? Each thump will be as different as the thumper. Doesn't this introduce a random element that might skew otherwise reliable information. The difference between one beekeeper's ham-fisted thud and another's deft rap could elicit great variations in hiss, could they not? John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:41:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wintering - indoors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gosh, you are in Minnesota. The University of MN is offering a Short Course on March 10-12 which teaches how to keep bees in cold climates! The announcement is on Page 15 of the January ABJ; or you can see their Web site at: http://www.ent.agri.umn.edu/; or email one of the instructors, Gary Reuter at: reute001@tc.umn.edu Go right to the scientists in Minnesota for info, rather than the BeeLine where most of the people are NOT in MN. Good Luck. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Greetings, > That bees have a "mental map" is certainly evident to anyone > who has attempted to move a hive a short distance > Bees forage over a range of about 100 square kilometers > (Seeley). Evidently they form a "mental map" of this area and can > find their way back to the nest even if they are taken somewhere they > haven't been and released (Gould). > - - - - - - - - - - - - > Peter Borst > Apiary Technician > Dyce Honeybee Lab > Cornell University > Ithaca, NY 14853 > When I take the honey off, and robbing is bad, the supers on the truck will be full of robbers(yes I cover everything and even duct-tape large cracks). I don't like to take these bees with me as they are a nuisance at home and in town. When this happens, I remove the covers and drive a hundred yards. After parking for a minute or two, I repeat the process. By the time I get the truck back to the highway, sometimes a quarter of a mile, most of the bees have flown off with their loads. I have often wondered if these bees are able to find their way home. If so, how far from the hive, if released, will they return to the hive? Peter? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 09:03:05 +0000 Reply-To: brian.gant@which.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brian Gant Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 18 Jan 2000 to 19 Jan 2000 (#2000-18) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eggs in queen cups Winston's Biology of the Honey Bee, p.182 says, quote Most of the eggs in queen cups are laid by the queen, but workers can and do move a small number of fertilised eggs or very young larvae from worker cells into cups (Butler 1957a; Winston 1979b; Punnett and Winston 1983). end quote. Sound pretty convincing, but I havent looked at these original papers. Brian Gant (Devon, UK) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 14:10:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Organization: Bee Trials Subject: Cordovan/dissemination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to bring this subject up again but i am still searching for a source of "Cordovan Queens" in the UK. If anyone can help i would appreciate it, my main objective is to try these bees out in a dissemination role this season.I would even consider importation if this can be arranged within the strict importation rules Best Regards Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 16:39:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Other occupants of hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have an idea what the brown furry caterpillars might be that I am finding in my hives? They are a little over an inch long and very hairy. One was in the roof of an occupied hive and another was in an empty hive. Location southern UK. Climate temperate, moist, few hard frosts. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 18:40:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: swarm lures & traps? bee hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hello, > I am to do some research for a club report on swarm lures & traps. > I know about paper pulp traps but what lures are used? Pheremones? How can > one have better luck luring swarms into an empty hive? Swarms like cedar > trees but why? > > Thanks, Harry Harry, I use the type of trap you described with predictable success, provided I pick the right location - persimmon trees in bloom around the end of May. I've never seen swarms in cedar trees but I'll take your word for that. I've used the pheromone caps like the ones from Mann Lake. I don't know what is in the capsules, and I can't swear they are that effective in attracting the swarms. This year I will try a trap with a frame of brood comb instead of the lure to see how that works. My guess is the comb will be just as effective and I can save a couple of bucks not buying the lures. AL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 22:56:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gothoney@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wintering - indoors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit check with quebec government. Their station near quebec city is doing great research and have provided me with much information. by feeding sugar water they run all winter in temp and humidity controlled environments. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Angell Subject: honey consumption Why do bees consume more honey when it warms up , instead of in very cold weather? I live in Missouri and this has been a very mild winter. It seems the bees are using up their stores of honey faster. I would appreciate any replies. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:04:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screen bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone asked me privately how to make screen bottom boards and hive stands, and I thought my reply might be of interest to the List. Here is a copy: I have two methods I use for the screen bottom, but the hive stand is the same. I will describe both the screens and the hive stand. All my hive stands are made from 2" X 12" pressure treated lumber. I buy 6' pieces and have the lumber yard cut 14" from the end of each piece (there is not usually a charge for this). In the bee yard, I use two of the long pieces and the two 14" cutoffs to make a stand for two hives. (I use a battery powered drill and attach then cutoffs to the long boards with two 6" long deck screws.) The 14" pieces are braces that are each put about 12" from the end. As hives are about 20" long, putting them on a stand that is 14" wide (plus the thickness of the wood) makes a real steady hive. After cutting off the 14" pieces, the boards are each 4' 10" long, so there is plenty of room for two 16" wide hives. The best part of this is that the 12" wide board actually measure 10.5", raising the hives off the ground by this much. This keeps the hive entrances relatively clear of weeds and, most important, means that I can inspect the hives without bending down almost to the ground! With some added height, taking supers off becomes a breeze! My hive stands cost me about $5 for each board, or $10 for a stand for two hives. They will last for 20 years or more. I have two kinds of screens. One is old queen excluders that are wood bound. If you can find them used, they are great. Either attach them to the bottom of your have with nails, or just put the hives on them. When I first used these I was skeptical as the bees have to turn upside down to land and go through the screen, but they do so just fine. Mice cannot get in. If you use this method, be certain to provide an upper entrance from spring on, as otherwise a virgin queen needing to mate for supercedure, and drones, cannot get out of the hive. The other screen is 1/2" hardware cloth (available at hardware stores, lumberyards, and farm supply stores) sandwiched between two 3/4" X 1" pieces of wood on the two long sides and one of the short sides. The other short side is left unsupported and faces the front of the hive. The bees use this as an entrance. I have had some hives where the bees extend burr comb from the frames down to the hardware cloth, but this does no harm. During late fall, the entrance needs to be adjusted so mice cannot get in. Sooner or later some bee supply dealer will make screen bottom boards similar to those described, and will sell a great number. Good luck! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:47:15 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote "Lindaer reported in 1955 that 2 out of 19 swarms he was studying broke cluster without reaching a unanimous decision and tried to depart in two different directions. Camazine says in 1999: "In some way the swarm decides its time to take off." If the bee was working entirely on instinct, the "right" nest would be found and the colony would simply go there. In a choosing situation a consensus must be formed." I tried to stay out of this, feeling that bees of course are nothing but instinctual machines. However, this report about swarm directions reminds me of an oft seen phenomenon in the yards: A swarm will issue without any clear idea of where they will first settle. I have watched them close in on a low, easy branch. Then I went off to get hive parts to set up right under the branch, but when I returned I find them settling high up in another tree. This early indecision as to where to settle is very common, and I guess that it is hard to see how instinct would have the swarm choose one site over another. Somehow the swarm really does seem to pick and choose and come to a common decision. Hmmm. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:01:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: honey consumption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/24/00 11:41:18 AM EST, rod4576@WEBTV.NET writes: << Why do bees consume more honey when it warms up , instead of in very cold weather? I live in Missouri and this has been a very mild winter. It seems the bees are using up their stores of honey faster. I would appreciate any replies. >> 1. They are flying more. Honey powers their wing muscles. They don't find much nectar at this time of year, but there may be some pollens available. 2. They are raising more brood. Honey consumption here in SC in not appreciable until the bees begin rearing brood. There was not much of an interruption in brood rearing this year, so bees will need more feed. This past week, we have finally gotten some real cold, and I hope this will slow down brood rearing for a bit. But maples are all set to pop open when the next warm spell comes by. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Use of stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, in Missouri, asks why bees seem to use so much honey when the weather starts to warm up. Misunderstandings concerning the use of honey in the spring may be one of the principal reasons why beginners lose bee populations and, sometimes, entire hives. Researchers have shown that while the temperature inside a bee cluster in the dead of winter may be 90 degrees, the temperature a few inches away from a cluster may be 10 degrees, or lower! Moreover, the temperature on the outside of the cluster may be only 50-55 degrees, with the bees just barely able to move! These temperature extremes do not harm the bees. The bees maintain the temperature in the center of the cluster by shivering. To get the energy necessary to shiver, they consume honey. Those bees on the inside of the cluster shiver a lot; the bees on the outside of the cluster barely move. Most bees are in between the two, and shiver a little. During the winter the bees are producing very little to no brood and bees hatching may be only sufficient to replace bees dying. As the weather warms up, more brood is produced. This brood has to be kept warm, so the cluster expands and those bees that were formerly shivering a little now have to shiver a lot. Those that were on the outside of the cluster (at 50-55 degrees), now must be closer to the brood and are required to shiver...to produce heat for the brood. All this additional shivering means much more honey is consumed. At some point the population will expand geometrically, then even more honey is consumed. Most hives that die from starvation do so in April and May; a many deal more don't die, but are so weakened that they never recover enough to make a decent crop. Spring brood can put a hive under a great deal of stress, and Paul is wise to keep checking the stores. All this is reason to either raise your own queens, or buy from a local breeder. Successful queens quickly show up, which means they are adapted to the area of the country where they produce. Most such adaptations are inheritable. In regard to Paul's question, beekeepers are looking for queens that can properly time the initiation of serious brood production with a more or less assured supply of nectar and pollen. I hope this helps. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:07:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness Comments: To: "tvf@umich.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ted In your case they only are following the queen pheromone .. she moved to a new branch, the cluster followed, no choice/thinking there Dave >>Ted Fischer wrote >>Somehow the swarm really does seem to pick and choose and come to a common decision. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:03:23 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: swarm lures & traps? bee hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bienendude@AOL.COM wrote: > I am to do some research for a club report on swarm lures & traps. I had > little luck so far with the web and BEE-L archives. Maybe someone can point > the way or offer some comments. > > I know about paper pulp traps but what lures are used? Pheremones? How can > one have better luck luring swarms into an empty hive? I use the pulp traps with pheromone lures. I find that it is important where in the trap the lures are placed. At first I tacked them to the bottom, near the entrance hole, but found that several of the swarms settled on the outside of the traps and started to make comb there. Naturally, these were quite difficult to transport and resettle in new hives. Now I tack the lures up near the covers, and the bees enter as expected. I also found from sad experience that when you have traps up you must check them very frequently. If you can't get to an area often, don't set up a trap there. I have had swarms very quickly build comb, start brood and store honey, especially if it's a large swarm. The new comb is soft, the summer is hot, and the result is a huge mess. Now, I only put up traps where I can check them every day or two. It is also interesting that sometimes the scout bees love being near the pheromone lures, and I see lots of activity around the trap. When I look in there is nothing except a cluster of about 25 bees, which stay around for weeks! Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Swarm lures & traps? bee hunting Comments: cc: Dadant@dadant.com, joschmid@u.arizona.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harry (Bienendude@AOL.COM) asked: > I am to do some research for a club report on swarm lures & traps. I had >little luck so far with the web and BEE-L archives. Maybe someone can point >the way or offer some comments. > > I know about paper pulp traps but what lures are used? Pheremones? How can >one have better luck luring swarms into an empty hive? Swarms like cedar >trees but why? ********* For rather complete information, you can read the following account: ********* Schmidt, J. O., S. C. Thoenes, & R. Hurley. 1989. Swarm traps. Amer. Bee J. 129(7), 468-471. ********* In our research on Santa Cruz Island we used those traps and found them about as effective as cavities formerly occupied by honey bee colonies. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:29:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Re: Apidictor v. computer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mitchell thinks that thumping the hive in different ways might produce different responses. No. When something goes goes bump in the night, you are startled and the degree of startlement depends on your state more than the nature of the bump. If you have been out on the town, you are more drowsy and do not react so quickly. It is the same with the bees. If conditions are normal they will be quick to defend the hive- an immediate hiss with a sharp start. If they are planning to leave, they are tanked up with honey, in a don't care mood with slower reactions. The hiss is not so loud, slower on the rise and more drawn out. To hear the hiss properly you need a filter that blocks the frequencies below 3,000 Hz. The warble just tells you that the queen's egg laying is reduced. The hiss tells you whether the cause is a planned swarm or something else. If you are building a mock apidictor, you need both. Rex Boys ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:39:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: honey consumption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Rod Angell To: Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 3:10 PM Subject: honey consumption > Why do bees consume more honey when it warms up , instead of in very cold weather when its cold the bees huddle together to keep warm and dont move about too much, the temperature in the nest is kept at the optimum , when it gets warmer outside the temperature in the hive will start to go up and brood nests dont like the temp too high so the cluster parts and the individual bees start moving about. Once they start that then they need more food to keep themselves topped up.Otherwise they would use up their resovoir and get weaker.albert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:09:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honeybee consciousness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Peter for your response. Exploring the possible avenues a little further, particularly the concept that the whole may be greater than the sum of its parts, could it be that the individual bees may operate as if machines or computers, below the level of consciousness, yet the colony as a whole, considered as a single multi celled organism, may fall within a definition of conscious? Christopher Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:09:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In response to Rex Boys' last mail, I had not realised that to use the apidictor it was necessary first to thump the hive to produce the hiss. This cannot be so very different to what I did yesterday to I hive that was quieter than the rest. I pressed my ear to it and gave it a gentle tap (the hive, not the ear!). The resulting buzz rapidly subsiding to a murmer told me all was well. If I trained my ear better in the swarming season, could I do without apidictor, computers, radio links and parabolic reflectors? They are all machines and, generally machines hate me. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:49:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "S. R. Jones" Subject: Re: Apidictor v. computer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Boys wrote: >They are getting carried away and losing sight of the prime = >purpose which is to combat swarming. It seems to me that because the = >equipment is capable of it, they want to do a complete spectrum analysis = >on every visit, repeating what Eddie Woods did 50 years ago. Swarm prevention would still be the primary purpose here. I starting thinking laptop with SA software because I really don't know if or when I'll be able to buy a modern version of the apidictor. With older-but-still-capable laptops becoming cheaper and cheaper, a laptop with SA may be the thing for somebody willing to haul the thing out to the field. Yeah, I suppose I got a little carried away--living in the Silicon Forest* will do that you to a person. > How long before the keyboard is decorated with propolis? Propolis on the keyboard wouldn't be so bad and certainly wouldn't be harmful. It might even acquire a certain aesthetic pleasantness about it. Sort of like an old pickup truck looks better with a fresh coat of mud. Well...it looks good to me anyway. >Steve's alternative is to leave the lap-top in his vehicle and = >communicate with it by radio link. >Could the computer give = >him answers without somebody in the cab to press the buttons? Given enough software engineering, it could be voice activated from your voice to the microphone, and the results could be transmitted back to your ear-piece in voice form. However, at this point, I'm way beyond wishful thinking. :) >Good Luck. Rex Boys Peace. S. R. Jones *For those interested: Many people refer to the suburbs primarily west of Portland Oregon as the Silicon Forest. Like the Silicon Valley (San Jose, CA) there is a high concentration of high-tech industries in the area. ----------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://email.lycos.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:16:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: honey consumption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 1/24/00 11:41:22 AM, rod4576@WEBTV.NET writes: <> It's not just that they consume more honey when it warms up — which they do — but when it gets very cold, too. When it's warm they move around and are more active, therefore they need more honey for energy. When it gets very cold they have to shiver more to produce more heat. Shivering is work, and that requires more food. Here in the Northeast US, first we had the unseasonably warm balmy winter weather. Now the weather has turned quickly to a bad cold snap (described in the media as "brutal," "viscious," "unrelenting:" there must be something to all that hyperbole). We may will hear a fair number of starvation stories in the spring. John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Honey Bee Consciousness In-Reply-To: <200001250500.AAA29591@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Quote: "... most of the bees have flown off with their loads ... how far from the hive, if released, will they return to the hive?" I think the general rule is 3 to 5 miles PB - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu phone: 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tceisele@MTU.EDU Subject: Re: Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200001251220.HAA05891@listserv.albany.edu> from "CSlade777@AOL.COM" at Jan 24, 2000 07:09:47 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Slade wrote: > > In response to Rex Boys' last mail, I had not realised that to use the > apidictor it was necessary first to thump the hive to produce the hiss. This > cannot be so very different to what I did yesterday to I hive that was > quieter than the rest. I pressed my ear to it and gave it a gentle tap (the > hive, not the ear!). > Speaking of which, I have just started using a stethoscope to listen to my hives, instead of trying to press my ear to it. This way, I don't have to stick my head into the snow while balancing on snowshoes, and press my bare ear against a large, cold, snow-covered object. The stethoscope head can be slid under any packing that might be on the hives, and easily moved around to make at least a rough estimate of where the cluster is. The sound is much clearer, because you listen with both ears at once. Also, while I haven't tried it yet, I see no reason why I couldn't use a stethoscope while wearing a bee veil. And, when not in use, it could be just clipped around the neck with the head in a vest pocket, the way doctors do it. Given these advantages, and their very reasonable price (even a top-of -the-line stethoscope only costs about $15, cheap ones can be as little as $6, and they are available at most drugstores), I was wondering why they don't seem to be widely used by beekeepers. I've read many recommendations that we should listen to our hives, but everybody seems to do it by squatting down and pressing their ear against it. Is there any particular reason for this, other than a desire to avoid carrying around yet another gadget? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: honey consumption Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John wrote: > Here in the Northeast US, first we had the unseasonably warm balmy winter >weather. Now the weather has turned quickly to a bad cold snap (described in >the media as "brutal," "viscious," "unrelenting:" there must be something to >all that hyperbole). and > We may will hear a fair number of starvation stories in the spring. Yes indeed! Though 11 colonies here are behaving ideally and still have plenty of honey, five others used too much honey during the balmy weather and now must eat candy or syrup. One colony completely consumed 120# of honey. Feeding has been easy, as the bees quickly become accustomed to having the top opened on a relatively warm day to have a candy cake slipped in. Most no longer bother to hiss, though there are plenty of bees to hiss. Apparently anti-starvation measures work, as yesterday was warm enough for the undertakers to fly, but surprisingly few dead were ejected. I wonder if better mite control has added population that wasn't present last winter to eat honey, as the colonies look very large, even in cluster. So those having shared our balmy fall and early winter could do worse than to check for starvation, which would certainly happen here without feeding. Remember George Imirie's winter question "Are your bees alive?" Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:04:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bee dance manoeuvre Comments: cc: cole888@earthlink.net, jbarthell@ucok.edu, ponerine@dakotacom.net, greenber@WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU, HPSST-L@POST.QUEENSU.CA, SOCINSCT@listserv.albany.edu, Dadant@dadant.com, KenFrazier@compuserve.com, cherubini@MINDSPRING.COM, berwick@ai.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A week ago Allen Dick (17 Jan) and Lars Hansen of Denmark (18 Jan) requested input from me about four specific questions. Since those topics do not overlap, I will cover them one at a time in separate postings --- the first with Allen's request, here in part: "... from a layman's perspective -- [do] you have any thoughts about the causes, 'purposes', 'functions' and 'meaning' and relationships involved in the curious bee behaviour that is described as dancing. Without getting into the problems with using these words, I wonder if you have any musings on what the dance is all about. ********* Please bear with me for a while --- I am not trying to be evasive on this issue but must provide some background. Patrick Wells and I actually covered this topic quite thoroughly in Excursus TEL in our 1990 book. ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY: THE QUESTION OF A "LANGUAGE" AMONG BEES. Columbia University Press. (I can send a copy of this excursus, without references, as an attachment by e-mail to anyone who requests it and who can receive such an attachment.) I will try here to keep my comments in layman's terms. Unfortunately, one MUST get into the "word problem" (Allen's expression) since that is the root of the issue at hand. In 1865 the eminent French physiologist, Claude Bernard, recognized as much when he wrote: "The nature of our mind leads us to seek the essense or the why of things....experience soon teaches us that we cannot get beyond the how, i.e., beyond the immediate cause or necessary conditions of phenomena." That is, almost all of us in the Western world spend our lives immersed in a Judeo-Christian tradition, which holds that God created all for a purpose. George Kneller summed up that attitude in 1978 when he wrote: "Teleological explanations ... are essential to biology. They imply that the parts, processes, and behavior patterns of living things are organized so as to attain specific goals, which contribute as a rule to the ultimate goal of reproductive fitness." A narrow attitude, such as Keller's, now dominates studies in behavior, bee research, and ecology (not to mention the effusive treatment found in nature programs and "documentaries" --- Disney-fication of science, as some have called it). In that ready acceptance of teleology, however, such an attitude actually hampers scientific progress to a great extent. Why? Because one can easily generate a "satisfying" answer to a "why" question. In 1941 John Steinbeck, one who associated often with scientists, expressed the danger of such an attitude, as follows: "But the greatest fallacy in, or rather the greatest objection to, teleological thinking is in connection with the emotional content, the belief. People get to believing and even to professing the apparent answers thus arrived at, suffering mental constrictions by emotionally closing their minds to any of the further and possibly opposite `answers' which might otherwise be unearthed by honest effort" For example, one can ask, "Why do geese fly south for the winter?" "To keep warm" is a disarmingly satisfying answer! This explanation of biological phenomena in terms of purposeful or goal directed behavior has wide appeal, but it leads nowhere in scientific investigation. We often encountered such a teleological pattern of thinking when we offered an "odor search" answer to the question: "How do naive bees find a food source to which they have been recruited?" Our audiences appeared to be uncomfortable, not so much with our answer as with our question! "But WHY then", they wanted to know, "do they dance?" Indeed, von Frisch himself objected in 1973, as follows: "The reason why these complicated and ingenious behavioural patterns could evolve and be a functionless repertoire remains undiscussed [by Wenner and Wells]." In response to that statement we offered a counter example (same year). We described Steiner's (1952) use of methyl eugenol as an attractant for oriental fruit flies in Hawaii, and noted: "[Methyl eugenol] is not a component of the natural food of this fly and probably has no nutritional value. Yet male oriental fruit flies are irresistibly attracted to it and 'apparently cannot stop feeding when they have free access to it, and they kill themselves with over indulgence'." We could have added that the flash rate of fireflies (Family Lampyridae) or the chirp rate of crickets contain ambient temperature information; however, that fact does not lead to the conclusion that fireflies or crickets are communicating information about temperature to one another. ******* Now to the question, "Why do bees dance?" While that is a good question (but only as a starting point for research), it can have a too disarmingly simple answer, such as: "to describe to other bees the location of food". Instead, early in the game (late 1940s) the scientific question should have been changed to: "Once an attendant bee leaves a dancing bee, HOW does the attendant bee manage to find the same source?" That (a HOW question) is the next logical scientific step (as in Claude Bernard's statement). My answer to the why question: "I quite frankly don"t know WHY bees dance! (perhaps they are only shaking odor molecules onto the antennae of attendants)." I have a pretty good notion now, though, about HOW recruited bees manage to find a food source exploited by regular foragers --- they readily expoit odors and wind patterns as they search. WHY bees dance, a theological question, now falls outside the limits of that which I wish to investigate. Neither, might I add, is the answer to such a question my responsibility. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 20:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Managing the Russians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I ordered my Russian queens today. After hanging up the phone I realized I don't have any concrete idea of how I'm going to manage these bees differently. I know in a general way that they are supposed to have some increased resistance to varroa, but does that mean I can discontinue all treatments for varroa immediately? With quite a few breeders now selling ³Russians,² will we see U.S. beekeepers stop treating for varroa en masse? I called Charlie Harper who owns an apiary in Louisiana in which the USDA has been testing the Russians, and Dr. Tom Rinderer, who has been in charge of the USDA¹s testing program for the bees. Here are some paraphrased highlights of what they had to say (I mentioned I would be passing along what was said to my Internet buddies.): € Both said you take a big risk changing your normal treatment routines if your Russians are crossed with any other type of bee. There's just no telling whether the characteristics that control varroa will be present in the crosses. Ask questions of the breeders you buy from, and lower your expectations accordingly. Rinderer thought many of the queens being sold first will probably be hybrids, and said he was concerned that if people buy Russian hybrids that produce varroa-damaged colonies, some will conclude erronously the bees lack varroa resistance. The breeder I bought from was offering artificially inseminated (AI) Russian/Carniolan hybrids in early spring, and AI Russian/Russian crosses later in the summer. I chose the Russian/Russian crosses, which Rinderer said should offer a decent example of what they can do. € Harper suggested dropping back to one treatment of formic gel in the spring with true Russian queens. € Rinderer said the Russian¹s resistance was probably grounded in grooming behavior that knocks the mites off. He asked if I use the screened bottom boards (I do), and suggested using them in conjunction with the Russians will give superior varroa management. € Harper said the queens are very black in color and tend to run. They often found them on the sides and bottomboards. € The weirdest thing about managing the Russians is that they keep queen cells throughout the active season. Harper said many of his 100 colonies maintained capped queen cells throughout the summer but never swarmed or superceded. He speculated that they killed the virgins. The same marked queens were still there in the fall in 75 of 100 colonies after repeated observations of queen cells throughout the hives. Rinderer acknowledged this trait. He speculated that it might have something to do with the fact that the active season where these bees originate is extremely short, so the bees don¹t have the luxury of time to start queens from a larva. He called it their ³insurance policy.² The way U.S. beekeepers manage for swarming is going to have to change drastically with these bees. We¹ll have to get used to, and learn to live with, queen cells. John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:56:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Honey Bee Consciousness Comments: cc: buchmann@tucson.ars.ag.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Palmer asked: I have often wondered if [displaced] bees are able to find their way home. If so, how far from the hive, if released, will they return to the hive? ********* Edward Southwick and Stephen Buchmann conducted such studies both near Brockport NY and near Tucson AZ and published their results, as follows: Southwick, E.E. and S.L. Buchmann. 1995. "Effects of horizon landmarks on homing success in honey bees." THE AMERICAN NATURALIST. 146:748-764. I quote from the abstract: "Maximum distances from which honey bee foragers found their nests were about 5 km in flat terrain with no skyline features and about 9 km in a mountainous region." and from the Discussion: "In our tests, workers released in unfamiliar distant sites took exceptionally long times to make their way back to the home colony." [hours and even days compared to minutes expected for a direct flight home] Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 12:47:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Grieneisen Subject: New and improved Ent Event Calendar Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Dear List Member, Since the Entomology Events Calendar was first posted three weeks ago (at http://www.sciref.org/links/EntEvent/index.htm), it has roughly doubled in size -- from a total of about 350 events to over 700! We are grateful to the members of this list who have either submitted announcements for their events to us directly, or who have posted them to the list. In light of this growth (and the expectation that it will continue) we have constructed several indexes to help users find events of interest among the lengthy chronological lists. Indexes based on the following criteria have been created thus far: - an alphabetical index by the name of the society or association lists all events which are sponsored by such organizations; - an index by event type (such as commercial meetings, courses, etc.) lists all non-society events; - an index by taxonomic group provides separate lists of all events (in some cases only a few) which are dedicated to arachnids, Ephemeroptera, Odonata, Plecoptera, Neuroptera, Coleoptera, Diptera, Lepidoptera, Trichoptera and Hymenoptera. - separate indexes have been created which list all of the: (i) apicultural events (an incomplete list, but we're working on it) (ii) mosquito and vector control events; (iii) pest control, IPM, crop protection, and plant protection events These indexes should make the Entomology Events Calendar much easier to use, and easier for event organizers to determine if their event is already listed. The Calendar will certainly continue to evolve as it grows over the next several weeks. We look forward to receiving more information about future events or suggestions on how to improve it. Sincerely, Michael L. Grieneisen Scientific Reference Resources Post Office Box 73674 Davis, California 95616 USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:06:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Honey Prices Up? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just heard a rumour that Argentina is experiencing drought and that bulk white honey prices are increasing to around 60c US. Anyone have any further info? allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:50:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vladimir Obolonkin Subject: Apidictor, sorse of bee-sounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello bee-friends! May be I am joining the apidictro-discussion too late. Sorry, but I can't keep silence in so interesting for me question. I have to say 1. I like the idea to use a computer (lap-top, notebook, palmtop etc.) more than to use an especially made device. A microphon attached to computer turns your computer to analyser of sound spectra. You can use any of popular sound-processor software not only to hear but to see the bee-sounds. 2. I think that the APIDICTOR can be a good toy for curiouse bee-keeper but, I'm afraid, for the short time. 3. Is here in the BEE-L anybody haviing digital records of bee-sounds or knowing sourses of ones in diffirent situations/conditions? I'd like to "exersise" alittle as I worked alot with spectrum analysis technique but in the another field of biological science. Beest wishes to all, Vladimir from Belarus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honey Prices Up? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d) [mailto:LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 07:57 AM To: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L: approval required (F6017F9E) This message was originally submitted by GLubris@FERROSTAAL.COM.AR to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=F6017F9E) (55 lines) --------------- From: Gustavo Lubris To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: RE: Honey Prices Up? Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 09:57:05 -0300 hello I'm an argentinian small beekeeper=20 Prices in 1998 were around $ 1.20, decreasing to 0.80 by september 1999 and staying stable. Nowadays we can sell it to exporters around 0.75 About drought, most of our country is experiencing it, but in some areas rains and bees are working ok Many beekeepers don=B4t sell honey ( the ones who can wait) as are expecting higher prices. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 10:23:35 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Honey Prices Up? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/26/00 7:15:45 AM EST, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << I just heard a rumour that Argentina is experiencing drought and that bulk white honey prices are increasing to around 60c US. >> A lot of beekeepers are in desperate shape. And the price of diesel fuel in northeastern US has jumped by about 50 cents to around $2 per gallon in the past few weeks. So honey prices will have to climb (and more than that), or many beekeeeping businesses will not survive another season. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:00:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maysoon Shukur Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw that you use treated lumber. The lumber is often treated with arsenic. Would you be worried that the chemicals could get into the honey? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:24:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: swarm lures & traps? bee hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I use the pulp traps with pheromone lures. I find that it is important > where > > > Ted Fischer > Dexter, Michigan USA > > Ted, I have recently purchased some pulp traps myself to put out this Spring, but now I wonder how well these traps hold up to rainy weather. Have any of your "pulp" traps fell apart when they get wet? Thanks, Billy Smart Rural Kansas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:21:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Managing the Russians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One more observation I forgot to mention. Charlie Harper said the Russians are extremely gentle, more so even than Caucasians. The last point in my previous post needs to be emphasized: some conventional swarm management techniques, such as pinching off queen cells, may prove fruitless at best with some Russian strains that maintain queen cells throughout the season. Or worse, it could cause stress that leads to the death of the colony. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:55:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: honey consumption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The queen is probably laying, and that brood requires LOTS of food. When the queen is NOT laying and the bees are NOT flying, very little food is used. But, feeding brood requires lots of food use, and when it gets warm enough to have both queen laying and bees FLYING, food supplies disappear RAPIDLY. Hope I have helped George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:09:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm Lures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry, Old brood comb is the best swarm lure but make sure that the colony it came from was disease free. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:12:16 -0500 Reply-To: tvf@umich.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: ACB Dept., Univ of Michigan Subject: Re: swarm lures & traps? bee hunting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Smart, Billy Y" wrote: > I have recently purchased some pulp traps myself to put out this Spring, but > now I wonder how well these traps hold up to rainy weather. Have any of your > "pulp" traps fell apart when they get wet? These traps are treated with a waterproofing material, and don't soak up water at all. In fact, in a rainy time of the year I have to tip the traps to one side before opening them to pour off the rain water that accumulates on top of them. (My first such experience resulted in getting well doused with the unexpected water!) Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: honey consumption In-Reply-To: <200001241618.LAA28422@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In the very coldest time of winter all the bees are doing is shivering their flight muscles to heat the cluster. The temperature of the cluster at that time only has to prevent the death of the adult bees. Once the winter starts to get milder many races of bees will start brood production. The cluster temperature, and the amount of honey consumed is much higher. A coloney that came through the worst part of winter can starve itself out just a few weeks before the first honey flows in the spring. There are many other issues you should understand. Take a look at http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/contentpages/articles.html or http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/ for George Imirie's Pink Pages. On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Rod Angell wrote: > Why do bees consume more honey when it warms up , instead of in very cold weather? I live in Missouri and this has been a very mild winter. It seems the bees are using up their stores of honey faster. I would appreciate any replies. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Explorer Bee Skins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who use Internet Explorer v4 or v5, I now have available on my web site, honeybee 'skins' that you can use to replace that boring grey header area at the top of your browser. No Netscape skins at this time. You can check them out at: http:www.xensei.com/users/alwine/browserskins.html These are free and I created them for the fun of it ! Once you install one of these, if you want to get rid of the whole business, you simply use the normal add/remove function and remove "hotbar.com" Enjoy, Al Needham ................................................................... Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 14:13:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Coumaphos cleared for use in Georgia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As we start ordering bees, perhaps this news will help prevent the spread of SHB from any apiaries supplying bees to the rest of the country. Jean-Francois Lariviere http://www.BeeHealthyFarms.com New York NY 10025 Pesticide Temporarily Cleared For Use in Georgia Beehives, According to the Georgia Department of Agriculture ATLANTA, Jan. 26 /PRNewswire/ -- Georgia Commissioner of Agriculture Tommy Irvin announced today that beekeepers in Georgia have been temporarily cleared to use the pesticide Coumaphos impregnated in plastic strips in their hives to control Varroa mite and small hive beetle. The temporary clearance comes as a result of Commissioner Irvin's appeal to the United States Environmental Protection Agency for an emergency exemption for Georgia's beekeepers. One important restriction for Coumaphos-treated hives is that honey from these hives will have to be removed from the comb before it is sold. For information and restrictions on using Coumophos, beekeepers should contact Doug Jones (telephone: 404-656-4958) or Mike Evans (404-651-9486) at the Georgia Department of Agriculture. "Varroa mites and small hive beetles are causing our honeybee population to dwindle," said Commissioner Irvin. "These pests have had a serious detrimental effect on commercial beekeeping in Georgia and the pollination services it provides the state's fruit and vegetable growers. Honeybees play an important role in pollinating many fruits and vegetables and are responsible for pollinating plants that account for approximately one-third of the food we eat," said Irvin. SOURCE Georgia Department of Agriculture CO: Georgia Department of Agriculture ST: Georgia IN: AGR ENV FOD SU: 01/26/2000 10:31 EST http://www.prnewswire.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:25:49 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Re: Apidictor, sorse of bee-sounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This replies to the 26th January posting by Vladimir Obolonkin. The original spectrum analysis was carried out 50 years ago by E.F.Woods who detected many sounds in the hive. Only two were useful in predicting swarms. 1) A warbling or bubbling sound in the band 225-285Hz, made by unemployed nurse bees and indicating that the queen has reduced her egg production. 2) A hissing sound lasting about a second that occurs when the hive is bumped. A short sharp hiss indicates that the bees are loyal to the colony and not planning to leave. A quieter, more 'rounded' and slightly longer hiss indicates that they are losing their loyalty and preparing to depart. Eddie designed an instrument which he called an apidictor which was a simple amplifier with a microphone and earpiece. Holding the microphone to a hole in the back of the hive you switched through three sounds. One was the complete hive noise. The second blotted out everything but 225-285Hz which was allowed through a band pass filter. The third blotted out everything except those above 3,000Hz. This emphasised the hiss and made it easier to distinguish between the two types mentioned above. The apidictor was a simple robust instrument designed for a beekeeper to carry round on his inspections to help decide which colonies were going to swarm. It meant that instead of inspecting them all every 8 days, he only had to inspect 10%. This not only saved his time but avoided losing honey through the disruption of inspecting the other 90%. It was too technical for the beekeepers of the day but it was certainly not a toy. Made in 1964, there are many still in use. There is nothing wrong in using your computer as a spectrum analyser for the same purpose but, if you can understand this English metaphor, it is 'using a sledgehammer to crack a nut' If Vladimir would like more explanation, I hope he will e-mail me direct. Rex Boys. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 12:50:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Apidictor v. computer In-Reply-To: <200001251223.HAA05963@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >They are getting carried away and losing sight of the prime > >purpose which is to combat swarming. It seems to me that because the > >equipment is capable of it, they want to do a complete spectrum analysis > >on every visit, repeating what Eddie Woods did 50 years ago. I think we are dealing with a conjunction of several different threads here. On the one hand, we have been considering what Jerry is up to and the many possibilities that are opening up with state of the art modern AI and communications techniques coupled with miniaturization and dropping prices, on the other we have been discussing the Apidictor. Add to that the question of bee intelligence and consciousness, and the bee dance and 'purpose' and its easy to see that we have a lot of files open. Personally, I'm approaching a stack overflow . As it happens, I'm also currently working my way through "The Age of the Spiritual Machine", one or two pages page at a time, and I must say that this all seems to converge... Some time back, Jerry asked me to give him a wish list of things I would like -- as a commercial beekeeper -- to be able to read remotely at my home computer in the morning about the same time I am browsing at the 'Net newspapers I receive each day. I'm afraid I haven't answered him very completely, I mostly said that a remote readout of individual hive weights and several reports compiled from that to highlight problem hives, problem yards, flows and potential starvation would be the most useful. I guess that seems pretty trivial, given all the possibilities. Maybe I should ask for a buzz analysis too. I'm afraid that I simply have not applied my imagination to the problem as much as I should have. Maybe the list will help. Can any of you that have some good ideas give me (and Jerry) a wish list of hive readouts you would like to have along with an explanation? We're thinking of an operation that has more than a few hives, but perhaps even a hobbyist with a few hives set up a long way from home could afford and benefit from such a system. As for the topics we discuss, personally, I don't think one approach excludes another, since we would all love to have an Apidictor AND a satellite monitoring system. (FWIW, I doubt I would use the Apidictor a lot, though, since most commercial beekeepers do not find swarming a big problem, but it would be a fun toy). allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 19:38:52 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: A Cocktail Party in the hive. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nothing like an eye-catching subject to get people reading, is there? Chris Slade, 25th January is really asking about a phenomenon known to sound engineers as the cocktail party effect. This refers to the ability of the human brain, in a room full of talking people, to pick out and listen to one particular conversation, not necessarily the loudest. To apply this to the sounds in a hive, I think he would need at least a stethoscope to blot out the ambient noises of the countryside. Even then, I doubt whether he would hear the warble soon enough to be useful in predicting a swarm. Remember that the apidictor amplified the warble and blotted out everything else. Still, anything is worth trying. I'm a bit more optimistic about the thump and the hiss; I'm sure I have heard this with the naked ear. However, you do have to distinguish between the two types of hiss. One is an immediate response from an alert guard, a sharp angry rise and ending quickly. "Push off", it says. On the other hand, if a swarm is in the offing, they are full of honey, half drunk, half asleep and their hisses are slurred. A bit slower to respond and not so loud, they are saying, "We don't care, we're leaving soon, anyway." When you hear this, you had better get searching through the brood box. I don't think it would be possible to depend on the hiss alone for swarm prediction because it dies away when queen cells are started. If you have,'Listen to the Bees', there is a sketch on page 10, drawn by Eddie Woods himself, showing the timing of these sounds. Rex Boys. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 16:16:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Treated lumber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maysoon asked about using treated lumber. I recently made reference to the use of treated lumber for hive stands, and perhaps that was the reference. There has been much discussion on this subject in these pages. While I guess some types of treated lumber are ok to use, I can never keep track of what is good and bad...so don't use any where it is in regular contact with bees. The only use I make of it is for stands. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:09:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Worldwide Honey Auction Comments: To: "sci.ag.bee" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a chance to talk with Martin Braunstein in San Diego, and it is no secret that he thinks that the world trade of honey is not an efficient market or that he thinks that there are cartels controlling prices. He also has indicated that there seems to be a 'country' price for honey, where pretty well all the producers in one country are offered a certain price for honey while producers in another country are offered a different price -- for honey that is often virtually indistinguishable. Anyone reading 'Honey Market News' at http://www.beesource.com/news/nhmn/ can verify this. Now that the internet is being used for auctioning off almost everything, what about honey? Imagine a site where beekeepers could offer their honey for auction to buyers and cut out the middleman. There are some problems such as confirmation of quality, escrow, shipping, etc., but I can see that we could have something going using some of the auctioning sites already set up. With such a system, I think we could avoid the type of wild price swings we have seen recently, and also encourage smaller packers to compete for supplies more effectively. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 17:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Screen bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pressure treated wood is approved for beehive use on all parts that don't come in direct contact with the honey. I read this on a printout from the company that treats the wood. Maysoon Shukur wrote: > I saw that you use treated lumber. The lumber is often treated with arsenic. > Would you be worried that the chemicals could get into the honey? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:49:35 -0500 Reply-To: Al Needham Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Needham Subject: Browser Skins MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of all the things I have lost, what I miss the most is my mind. Correction on the url for browser skins. I left out "//" http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine/browserskins.html Sorry about that :-) Al Needham Scituate, MA.,USA Visit " The BeeHive " Learn About Honey Bees And Beekeeping http://www.xensei.com/users/alwine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 20:11:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Hughes Subject: Short Sourse in Memphis, Tennessee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEMPHIS AREA BEEKEEPERS ASSOCIATION P.O.Box 11684 Memphis,TN 38111 35th Annual Beekeeping Short Course Location: U.T. Agricultural Extension Office 5565 Shelby Oaks Dr. Memphis, TN Ph.544-0243 Saturday February 19th, 2000 Time: 9:00 A.M. to 4:00 P.M. Cost $10.00 Dollars The Public is invited to attend this educational and informative seminar. The topics to be covered will include beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels of beekeeping. All aspects of beekeeping will be studied from hive management, equipment, disease control, honey harvesting, honey marketing, and packaging of honey products. This beekeeping short course will be conducted by guest speakers and volunteers from the local association who have several years experience. New beekeepers attending their first short course will receive all educational materials, hands on instruction, Pizza lunch, first years dues in the local association, and a chance to win new hive equipment. The drawings will be at the conclusion of the short course and you must be present to qualify for the new equipment to be given away. Door prizes and refreshments will be provided by the local association. Due to previous years demand, seating is limited to the first 50 participants who have registered by 9:00 A.M. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:10:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Corn Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have a question for the list, and I hope that someone is able to supply me with a few answers/ideas. Recently, I saw a news article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch saying that pollen from genetically altered corn, BT Corn I think it said, was toxic to Monarch Butterfly caterpillars. They were warning farmers to plant limited amounts of the corn to avoid problems, and mentioned that the pollen that falls on the milkweed, often found around cornfields, was toxic to the Monarch caterpillars. Before I shoot a letter off to Monsanto asking whether they tested the toxicity on honeybees, I wanted to see if bees did indeed collect corn pollen. I remember seeing somewhere that they did collect it, but I dont remember if they collected large quantities of it or not. Also, would they pick up the pollen from plants surrounding cornfields? As a teacher of biology, I have found genetic engineering fascinating, but have always been skeptical of genetically altering anything designed to kill pests. Not only will it kill the intended pest, but other organisms become the victim as well. Thanks for any help you all can offer. Scott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:39:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: pollen collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There have bee 3 recent queries regarding different types of pollen (corn, poppy and hazelnut) that may or may not be collected by honeybees. The quickest online reference for pollination is _Insect_Pollination_Of_Cultivated_Crop_Plants by S.E. McGregor, USDA (Originally published 1976), hosted by A.I. Root (who also brings you "Bee Culture") at: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/book/index.html I find none of the three listed. Can I assume if they didn't make McGregor's book the plants aren't of interest to honeybees or should I assume the plants weren't of interest to McGregor? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 07:52:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Corn Pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Scott and everyone, Honey bees do collect pollen from corn. This leads to bee kills when care is not taken when using insecticides on corn. Actually, with proper timeing of the sprays and careful selection of chemicals actual damage to honey bee colonies is rare just like Dave Green says if they follow the label they don't kill the bees. On the issue of BT corn pollen. It should not have any effect on honey bees as the toxin only effects catapillars. In fact we used to have a BT product that was sprayed directly on combs to protect them from wax moth - it had no effects on the bees only the wax moth catapillars. So I don't think there will be any problem with bees collecting the pollen. Of course there are other issues and one of them is that the very widespread use of the BT toxin will result in resistance to it by the target pests so we will loose BT as an effective insecticide. BT has been a mainstay of the organic growers for a long time and they don't have anything as selective and effective to replace it with. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:34:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Auctions for honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said "but I can see that we could have something going using some of the auctioning sites already set up." Yep, I agree. I just read an article in the NY Times on the success of these sites and will share what I recall. These sites exist by charging buyers a fee. In exchange, of course, they have had to convince the buyers that they can substantially reduce their purchase prices. And they have done just that! In case of honey, the General Foods of the world would be able to make their multi-million dollar purchases at an even lower price than they pay now. Before you scream, on the other end the producers should collect more! It is the middlemen who get hurt, by being cut out. If I get a chance, later today I will try to find the article on www.nytimes.com. In someone else has the time, go to it. I also recall that there have been some instances where one or more producers have had to convince the buyers to use the sites and to convince more producers to sign up. With any luck, the large buyers, such as General Foods, are already using one or more of such sites so the process could go relatively fast. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:17:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Urgent request For Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone answer the following? Do bees readily collect poppy pollen? Do bees readily collect hazelnut pollen? Are either of these pollens of commercial significance? Regards Ron Law ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:38:59 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garth Organization: Rhodes University Subject: Re: Bee Consciousness In-Reply-To: <200001230500.AAA18054@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi All I come in on the middle of this debate - but have a few observations. I used to feed my bees with basins placed on top of the brood frames and a brood chamber around this and the hive lid on top. Inside this I used to place ploystyrene chips and sugar solution, and the bees quite happily drank from this. When it was empty the left. When I came to refill each week I noticed that intially a few bees would run into the basin as I began pouring. After about five weeks (I was farming combs in factory hives for other hives) of feeding I noticed that the bees would run up even before I began pouring and would be wating. Once I stopped feeding the continued with this behaviour for a month after. (it was not defensive behaviour) Learning and intelligence are interlinked. Recent advances in the whole IQ gene thing have shown, much to my dismay as I have a bad memory, that mice with better memories have better problem solving skills. Problem solding skills are the basis of intelligence. Bees solve problems, and have memory, therefore they could be collectively intelligent, and could be conscious, as to collectively intelligently solve a problem, and remember how to do it suggests consciousness to me. Oh well Keep well Garth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:27:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: pollen collection In-Reply-To: <200001271305.IAA07925@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I find none of the three listed. Can I assume if they didn't make > McGregor's book the plants aren't of interest to honeybees or should I > assume the plants weren't of interest to McGregor? Nonetheless, the topic of corn pollen has been fairly extensively covered by BEE-L, and an online article about the Monarch caterpillars is referenced there also, as I recall. allen ----- Before you post, see if your questions have been answered: BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Auctions for honey In-Reply-To: <200001271609.LAA16483@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In case of honey, the General Foods of the world would be able to make their > multi-million dollar purchases at an even lower price than they pay now. > Before you scream, on the other end the producers should collect more! It > is the middlemen who get hurt, by being cut out. True, there will still be middlemen of sorts -- the auction site, the escrow and freight forwarding people, and the banks that write the letters of credit. However, these people are not speculating on the product and manipulating the market. They work for competitive fixed fees or commissions. Price decisions in such a market are determined solely between the buyers and sellers, all acting independently and trying to get the best deal. Speculators can get involved too, and that is good, however, it would be very difficult for anyone to corner the market or control a large part of it, as -- I am told -- some traders and groups of traders may actually have been attempting in recent times. If a significant portion of world honey is made available for open trade at publicly published prices, some people will still sell too cheap or buy too high, but individual pressures and needs will regulate the flow. This will, over the long haul, result in prices that more often represent true production costs, risks and necessary profit. With prices moving much more quickly in response to market realities, prices will also reflect supply and demand much more realistically, encouraging consumers to adjust their use of honey. When bulk prices drop, consumers will immediately be able to take advantage of lower prices, consume more, and eliminate the surplus quickly. When the surplus is gone, then the prices will climb and consumers will either adjust their consumption, or prices will again climb as high consumption creates a shortage that results in higher prices, and then, ultimately more supply and so on... Currently, middlemen take advantage of huge spreads between producer price and consumer prices. These spreads are due to the large distances, language barriers, government regulations, monetary differences, information shortfalls, and suspicions between producers and consumers. This middle ground is the province of the middleman who specializes on understanding all these obstacles and either overcoming them or turning them to his advantage. Reducing or eliminating any or all of these barriers to trade reduces the spread. Both consumers and producers benefit. Open trading will place smaller buyers worldwide on a more even footing with the larger operators. Open trading will make opportunities for other players in supporting businesses like freight forwarding and import/export to get involved in what is currently a rather occult and dangerous business to non-insiders. Increased opportunity to trade openly and competition will necessarily reduce the amount of money that goes to those who only deal in honey, while increasing the security of those who produce, package and consume honey. As I see it, anyhow. Let's hope now that electronic grocery buying at a retail level will somehow break the stranglehold that a few large operators have in each regional grocery market to allow the same kind of free market for the packers who buy and distribute our product. allen (no sig today) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:41:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anne Becker Subject: Re: allergic reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello-- I've read/heard from different sources that eating local pollen helps to ease seasonal allergies. (recently, I've heard that cappings have a similar effect.) I have also heard that the honey from saw palmetto shares the benefits that this plant has for prostate problems. While I do not know if there's any scientific evidence to back these claims, I think they make sense. People have been using bee products for centuries for a range of health issues. My questions: 1. What other potential benefits have people heard of, and are there studies to back them up? 2. If pollen and honey can help some people with allergies, can they have a negative/reverse effect on others, the way bee stings do? thanks for any input/ideas/references... anne becker, New York, NY "Beehive:fine honeys and bee products from around the world." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 13:05:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.F. Hensler" Subject: Re: pollen collection Aaron Morris wrote: Yo Aaron: I can't add anything on either the corn or hazelnut but we raise rhoeas (Shirley), Icelandic, Oriental, Calif. (escholza) and "breadseed" poppies and I can vouch that our bees work all of them profusely. As a matter of fact, if I were going to plant a garden expressly with bee forage in mind, poppies would be one of the mainstays. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, Wash. http://www.povn.com/rock ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:13:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Do bees carry eggs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a lurking suspicion that I put this letter on the List a very long time ago but I am not sure. Now that interest has been revived I offer it for what it is worth. It was sent to the editor of the Hampshire Beekeeper, a small magazine which was then the official organ of the Hants Beekeeping Association. This was the parent body of twenty three local associations spread throughout the county. Hampshire is in central southern England. The date was August, 1951. The writer was an experienced beekeeper employed as the county Beekeeping Instructor in a county near mine and much in demand as a lecturer. "Dear Sir, There have been a number of articles from time to time in the beekeeping press about this intriguing question, which is still regarded by many as pure conjecture. It was observed 24 years ago, as also was the removal of very young larvae. A queen, especially a newly mated one, often deposits more than one egg in a cell. Only one egg is left to hatch. What did the bees do with the others? Tests were made to prove that bees do transport eggs and larvae, the procedure adopted being as follows:------ A strong colony was de-queened. Queen cells were naturally started and destroyed until all brood was capped and there was no possibility of further queen cells. Twelve straws were selected and the ends trimmed obliquely to resemble a quill pen. A comb containing worker and drone eggs and young larvae was taken from another colony. Three one day old larvae were picked out on the tip of quill, one to each straw. The rest of the quills were dipped in royal jelly and two to four worker and drone eggs attached. The straws were carefully bundled and suspended in the centre of the queenless colony and left for nine days. Result, a patch of drone brood, a patch of worker brood and three queen cells,nothing left on the straws. The quantity of brood matched the number of eggs. This test has been repeated since with similar results , confirming the experiment of 24 years ago. Yours faithfully, W. M. E. W." It sounds straighforward enough. What we need now is ten inquiring beekeepers with time on their hands to carry out a similar experiment during the coming season and report back. I have left it a bit late in life but I might have a go myself. That should settle it once and for all. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:49:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Susan Jordan Subject: Re: allergic reactions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Honey has the power to heal wounds because it releases hydrogen peroxide at a slow enough rate not to damage the skin tissue. The honey also has an osmotic effect that draws out lymph to the wound site. Peter Molan has done many experiments to prove the power of honey as a healing agent. As far as pollen goes, when you consume it, your immune system gets used to it, and eventually, your immune system takes no action against pollen during hay season. In the "Sting" magazine distributed to members of the Ontario Beekeeper's Association, propolis is anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal, local anaesthetic, and it simulates the immune system. Hope this helps. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 23:47:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Urgent request For Information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ron, Answers to your questions 1.Yes 2.Yes 3.No Sorry to be brief but a response is better than none at all!!! Regards Peter. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: According to Frank C. Pellet, American Honey Plants(1977 pgs. 323-324), and John B. Free, Insect Pollination of Crops (1993 pg. 402) poppy pollen is worked by bees for pollen. Pellett, p.178, states that hazelnut produces some pollen and is valuable where there is a scarcity of early pollen producing plants. Jane Ramsay, Plants for Beekeeping in Canada and the northern USA... (1987, p.78), indicates that hazelnut pollen is poor in protein content. She also notes on p.58 that although bees are highly attracted to poppy pollen, it may have a narcotic effect on the bees, with opium poppy being the cause of serious mortality of foraging bees. None of the references indicate any "commercial value", unless one considers poor protein content or mortality of foraging bees. Hope this is of some help with the questions. Keith Grimsby, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:25:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: "Transgenic pollen and monarch larvae" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: As a point of interest, you may wish to go the Canadian Broadcasting 's(CBC) Quirks and Quarks Site, http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/99-00/nov2099.htm and listen , in real-time,to a discussion about this topic. The interview includes Dr. Losey, author of the report from Cornell University, Dr. Chip Taylor from the University of Kansas, and Dr. Mark Sears from the University of Guelph. Keith Grimsby, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 08:25:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Steven A. Davis" Subject: Re: Wintering - indoors In-Reply-To: <200001231731.MAA26724@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, Although I am not sure why, it appears your post isnt getting much in the way of response. So I'll give you my two cents worth. >1. How long can the bees go without a cleansing flight! I am not = >certain all hives have good access to the exit holes in the shed. I have worried about this ever since I moved to the high mountains of Eastern Oregon. As I am beginning to realize- most of my worries are for not. Here it is normal to go for a month or more with no days getting above freezing and of course in this scenario my bees usually go from Nov to March without a cleansing flight. I know this seems extreme but they have done pretty good so far. Now as you may guess bottom boards are something to be remembered come spring time. In fact my wife wont help me clean them again after last years gut wrenching mess. I have to be more careful about treating for Nosema since without the opportunity to fly bees will relieve themselves inside the hive. If you have Nosema to any degree it gets really nasty really quick. Have fresh, clean and dry bottom boards ready if possible during that first spring inspection. >2. What is the optimum temperature. The shed stays between 10 F and 35 = >F. Our temperatures this winter have been about the same as yours. At the moment my bees are outside and covered in snow. This has the advantage of insulation from extreme temperatures but also hampers ventilation a bit. If your shed has good ventilation I think you are actually ahead of the game. Dry and cold is better than wet and a little warmer. >3. Honey consumption. I left around 100 lbs. per hive. How much you need to leave has something to do with the strain of bee you are raising, how many bees the colony is trying to carry over and how cold (on average) it stays throughout the winter. 100 pounds should be more than adequate. I dont think anyone would suggest your bees have to little feed. I expect most of my bees to make it with about 50-75 lbs average. Now in a shed it is possible that a sunny day wont warm the hives like it would if the bees were outside. An sunny period (warmer inside temperatures) - even if it is only a few hours- enables bees to move to a new location in the hive to get to new stores. I have had bees starve with stores only a frame away- it was simply too cold for the cluster to move. I wouldnt freak out if your bees arent getting warming periods inside your shed. What I describe has always been the exception rather than the rule. >Another other comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Now I dont know for sure- but I have heard that the actual spring flights (where the bees reorient themselves) can be a problem if they are still in the shed. You see the potential problem here- your bees will continue to come back to the shed looking for their hives even though you have moved them outside. I guess the solution is to move them before they have those first good cleansing flights or move them a sufficient distance away. Good Luck- Steve Davis Summerville, Oregon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 17:47:01 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Corn pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The following is from a book called "Protein Content and Amino-acid Profiles of Honeybee-collected Pollens" by Peter Stace. This is Australian conditions. "Corn or maize is a pollen source utilised by bees. Corn pollen is 14% to 15% crude protein and amino-acid ratios are satisfactory, the iso-leucine being 3.7% to 4.3%. Bees collect corn pollen in large quantities and are stimulated to breed. This is interesting as corn does not produce nectar. Any major bee-breeding that occurs with corn pollen as the main protein source would produce low-protein bees. Diseases such as EFB and nosema may result. Because corn pollen is so enthusiastically collected and eaten by honey bees, it possibly could be used for collecting, storing and feeding back to bees as an additive to soyflour." My own experience is that bees collect vast quantities of corn pollen. It is good for maintainimng hives such as mating nucs but as stated above if they try to expand, the hive will diminsh at a later stage down the track unless it is shifted onto a better source of pollen. The attractiveness of corn is a problem where they grow sweet corn as it is sprayed here about every second day. Large losses of field bees can be experienced if they use some of the more deadly chemicals. We are lucky where we are as they grow the corn for silage and hence do not spray. Another beekeeper I know has bees on corn where it is planted every week and is picked for sale for eating. This grower does not spray. The grower says he gets better filled out cobs as the bees collecting the pollen are also making pollen drop down onto the stigmas. This being especially on still mornings with no wind to carry out the normal pollination. Hope this helps. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:08:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Computers v. apidictor. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Knowing nothing about the computer software which you chaps are going to use, it occurs to me to ask whether it just has a single tuneable filter or whether it can also do band-pass and high-pass filtering. The apidictor was a simple instrument designed solely for assessing the state of a hive with regard to swarming. On one position of the switch, you heard all the nurse bees' tones between 225 and 285 Hz. at once. Can you do this with a computer or do you have to tune through the band? (in which case you would not hear a warble) Similarly, all the components of the loyalty hiss are above 3,000Hz so the apidictor blocked off all the frequencies below that figure. Can the computer do this? It is my impression that using the computer is tantamount to using a sledgehammer to crack a nut - but if a sledgehammer is all you have then that is the thing to use as long as you don't crush the kernel in the process! As for Jerry's wish list, I think you have to distinguish between what you need to know and what you would like to know. My no.1 question would be, "Are the bees still there or have they been rustled overnight?" Next would be to know whether they are planning to swarm and after that whether any supers are full and ready for extraction. What you have to avoid is losing the pleasure of actually going and looking for yourself. Rex ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 09:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: allergic reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Jordan wrote: > Honey has the power to heal wounds because it releases hydrogen peroxide at > a slow enough rate not to damage the skin tissue. I recently tried honey instead of my normal neosporin for a fairly bad cut and after that, treated two bad burns. The cut was a knife cut to the bone on my thumb. Normally the cut would heal open, since even if I closed it, eventually water immersion or normal use would open the wound. I dressed the wound with honey and a common bandaid. I changed the dressing twice a day or every time I got it wet (washing dishes. I am domesticated). After three days, the wound had healed closed and I stopped treatment. It never reopened. I can barely see the scar, some two months later. Did the same with a bad burn, but had to use gauze pad and tape. Same results after three days. Got a samll burn on my finger yesterday (no I am not accident prone) and treated it. I did not cover the burn completely. When I removed the bandaid to retreat, the honey treated part was pink while the untreated part was red and ugly. Honey works. It really does not cause a problem with stickiness or is messy in any way. A quick wipe around the applied dressing gets rid of the excess. The honey was unheated and a mix of spring and summer nectars- clover predominant. Which leads me to a question I already know the answer to- if it works so well and is so cheap and abundent, why is it not being used in this country to treat burns and other wounds? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:29:55 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vladimir Obolonkin Subject: Re: Apidictor, sorse of bee-sounds Comments: To: Rex Boys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rex and all, Your explanation is abselutely enough. Voting for a computer I mean my own position. I'm hobbiest bee-keeper, 40 y.o., full-time professor reading statistics and computing to biological and medical students. Asking about real bee-sound records I thought to play a little with them as I have broad experience of spectrum analysis of different real biosignals such as different physiological ones: pulse waves, cardiograms, miograms etc. Sometimes I'd like to see by somebody founded effects by own eyes. All the more, some modern techiques sometimes allow to add few cents into well-known things. My 9 colonies are wintering under snow outdors 60 kilometers far from me. I'd like to have an opportunity to hear them using some "telemetric" system. I think it is now only cost-effectivity question. When we'll decide to make an international BEE-L team to solve the problems discussed, please reserve a position for me! ;-) Vladimir from Belarus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 10:01:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ed Costanza Subject: Optimum Hive Conditions and Wintering - indoors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For quite some time I have wondered what would be the optimum hive conditions necessary to encourage brood raising without regard to the quantity of syrup and pollen necessary to sustain brood rearing. We have a green house in which we can regulate temperatures fairly well. If we provide access to the outdoors via 1" plastic tubing, what would be the ideal temperature inside the green house that would assist the hives in regulating their hive temperature at 95 degrees Fahrenheit? (I understand this to be the temperature they maintain in their cluster.) I have considered that a constant temperature of 70 to 80 degrees F. might be ideal since body heat will should partially raise the temperature. I want to run some tests on raising brood to supplement weak hives or taking weak hives and reviving them under ideal conditions. We also want to see if we can rear queens cost effectively under ideal conditions to get an early start for the spring. It would be interesting to see if these hives would be more disease resistant (or less susceptible to disease) if the stress factors in the hive could be reduced or eliminated. Besides regulating temperatures and food and water supplies, what other factors must one consider? Thanks, Ed Costanza ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:32:35 -0500 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Wintering - indoors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, here in Quebec around 90% of the 36,000 hives in the province are wintered indoors.Most of these buildings are constructed specifically for this purpose. The hives enter in November or December and are removed in March or April (depending on the beekeepers region). There are no flight holes in these buildings,no light is allowed to filter in and the temperature is maintained at plus 3oC.There is a continuous recirculation of interior air (therefore very little cold or warm corners), and, as neccesary, heating or exhausting of the interior air.Winter losses are minimal and the colonies consume little food. But there are sure glad to get out and have a cleansing flight in the spring, do not park the truck in the yard. Most of my hives winter outside but l use my hot room to winter my nucs.It uses a squirrel cage fan for recirculation,a small 1000 watt heater, and a two speed fan for evacuation: all of which are controlled by thermostats.A lot of these buildings also have refrigeration systems so as to delay removing the hives out if there is a warm spell early in the year.There are buildings here capable of holding 3,000 hives. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:14:02 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Honey for medical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years ago I had earache so put some honey in but it did not help. Maybe it would have been better to use liquid rather than granulated! Anyway, I went to the doctor who looked in my ear and remarked, "You'd better go back to the bees. It's wax you're short of" I have a little booklet called 'Honey for Health' in which there is a chapter on Honey in Medicine and Surgery. It tells how in 1955 the gynaecological surgeon at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital (UK) wrote an article headed 'Honey as a Surgical Dressing' explaining that he had dropped the use of normal antiseptics and antibiotics in favour of honey on all his patients following operations. He summed up as follows:- "I have every reason to think that this very simple substance provides one answer to the problem of treatment of many infected wounds. The advantages claimed for it are that it is non-irritating, non toxic, self sterile, bactericidal, nutritive, cheap, easily obtained, easily applied and above all, effective". Praise indeed! Another report says it is particularly good on burns and scalds. Rex Boys ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tceisele@MTU.EDU Subject: Re: Computers v. apidictor. In-Reply-To: <200001281414.JAA27308@listserv.albany.edu> from "Rex Boys" at Jan 28, 2000 02:08:06 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Boys wrote: > > It is my impression that using the computer is tantamount to using a > sledgehammer to crack a nut - but if a sledgehammer is all you have then > that is the thing to use as long as you don't crush the kernel in the > process! > This is true, but consider that the cost of a powerful general-purpose computer is quite reasonable compared to even a simple custom-made electronic device, because of the tremendous economies of scale in electronics manufacture. The cost of hiring someone to design and construct a particular circuit (or the cost in your time to do it yourself) will, most likely, be much higher than the cost of buying a moderately- obsolete computer to do the job. Our laboratories here are filled with instruments that are run by dedicated computers, even though they only use a tiny fraction of the computers' capabilities, because it was cheaper and more reliable than designing and building dedicated, single-purpose electronics. An older laptop computer would be fully capable of the kind of spectral analysis you are talking about, provided that it has the appropriate software and a decent microphone. And, provided that it isn't taken outside in the rain, it should work fine in the bee yard. A good, durable, three- or four-year-old computer could probably be gotten for $300 or less. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen Comments: To: Justin Schmidt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Keith B. Forsyth" wrote: > Pellett, p.178, states that hazelnut produces some pollen and is valuable > where there is a scarcity of early pollen producing plants. Have found this thread quite interesting, especially since my wife and I intend moving to Oregon/Washington soon to begin our second careers, and she has a food allergy to hazelnuts. Can anyone advise me as to the chances she will also be allergic to the inhaled pollen, since I may end up working with bees in the filbert center of the U.S. ??? -John Edwards, USDA-ARS Bee Lab, Tucson, Arizona ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 11:50:53 -0800 Reply-To: mcmanus Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: mcmanus Subject: Re: allergic reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill wrote about treating wounds with honey. I too have done the same with the same results. Now to answer his question of why honey is not used instead of all the other medications out there. Cant' put a patent honey, therefore no profit. Joe McManus Loving You Honey Farms Bremerton,WA. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 15:38:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Re: Worldwide Honey Auction In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As blatant a commercial plug as this is, I just can't avoid letting people know that an 'almost like this' page already exists on Bee Culture's web page. Labeled Commercial Honey For Sale, commercial beekeepers have a listing of what kind of honey they have, color, name, address, phone, fax, and live email (if available), so buyers can go right to them. It is a searchable database, so a buyer can look for honey by where it is, what kind it is, what color it is and the like. We haven't pushed this hard to large honey buyers yet, but it is in the works. No, it's not an auction page, but a 1:1 producer:buyer page that does eliminate the middleman. Prices, shipping, barrel exchance and all the rest are in the details of each transaction. Looking for some clover honey from Minnesota? Is there a catch? Yes, there is. The page is supported by the American Honey Producers Association. You must be a member to post your honey. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:28:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Computers v. apidictor. In-Reply-To: <200001281757.MAA06881@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:13 AM 1/28/00 -0500, tceisele@MTU.EDU wrote: Tim makes good points - except that paying $300 for an old computer is too much. We readily made sound recordings in the beeyard with a computer with a sound card. Biggest obstacle is finding good, flexible, cheap sound analysis software, but that was 5 years ago. May be common as dirt today. Remember, you may need something a bit different than the software packages used to edit music. Or, you have to figure out how to unravel a wave sound file (its not ascii text) so that you can get at the underlying information. Much of the readily available sound processing software focuses on graphs of the sounds, cut and paste, etc. Trying to get at selective frequencies, or decibel levels, or other sound parameters is harder. Obviously, most of the music processing software has to be able to do some of this - its just not available to the user in other than a graphical display. Once in a while, I take a casual look - but sounds to me like some members of this list may have the answers (and I'm not talking about the expensive academic and research grade software costing hundreds to thousands of dollars) Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:48:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Prepared microscope slides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where can I find prepared microscope slides with honeybee subjects-body parts, pollen, disease etc. for educational purposes? Cesar Flores ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 14:51:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Language - not language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SPECIFIC POINTS II: What about the "robot bee" experiments? Lars Hansen asked: 1) [According to Kirchner and Towne] "Novel experiments, such as training bees to respond to sounds and recruiting them using a robot, have ended several debates surrounding the dance language." and 2) Could you, Adrian Wenner, please put your piece on the table and sum up very shortly: What precisely was wrong with the experiments with "robot bees" and/or the conclusions made? ******** Lars raised a VERY important point. Prior to the robot bee experiments, all evidence in support of bee language had been circumstantial (INDIRECT EVIDENCE), with a great deal of negative evidence continually accumulating that counters that interpretation. An artificial bee that could direct recruits out to a point source (without the confounding element of odor) would provide DIRECT evidence for the hypothesis. ********* My co-workers and I already included an analysis of all the results from the [1989] robot bee experiments in the following publication: Wenner, A.M., D. Meade, and L. J. Friesen. 1991. Recruitment, search behavior, and flight ranges of honey bees. AMERICAN ZOOLOGIST 31(6):768-782 (an invited review paper). For illustration, I will cover here only the results of the distance experiments (as shown in Fig. 3 of the original 1989 NATURWISSENSCHAFTEN publication). To obtain the real results (instead of as the percentages shown in their figure) I measured the lengths of the bars in their graphs with a ruler and converted the information into real numbers of bees. A summary of results from that set of four experiments follows (you might want to draw out a line and mark the distances along that line to keep the results straight): 1. ROBOT BEE DANCING FOR A 250m DISTANCE. In two 3-hour runs, a total of 27 and 38 recruits, respectively, arrived at the four stations, located at 100m, 250m, 500m, and 1000m from the hive. However, less than a third (31%) of them had arrived at the "designated" 250m station. (Simply at random, one would expect 25% at each of the four stations.) 2. ROBOT BEE DANCING FOR A 500m DISTANCE. In two 3-hour runs, a total of 24 and 101 recruits, respectively, arrived at those four stations. However, only 13 (about 10%) of them arrived at the 500m target station. 3. ROBOT BEE DANCING FOR A 1000m DISTANCE. In two 3-hour runs, a total of 27 and 41 recruits arrived at the four stations, with only 2 bees (3%) arriving at the 1000m target station. 4. TWO REAL BEES FORAGING AT 500M. With two live foragers flying between hive and feeding place for 3 hours (all odor artifacts included), a total of 369 recruits arrived at the four stations However, only 30% (109) of them had arrived at the target station --- not the overwhelming majority as predicted by theory. After contacting the robot bee, searching recruits obviously did not perform as if they had "flown directly out" to the indicated target. More important, perhaps, is the fact that searching bees who contacted the two live dancing bees also did not perform as predicted. The researchers thus actually obtained results at odds with the language hypothesis. *********** Also one should note that the authors wrote: "During each experimental session...the wax on the model was given an additional, faint scent .... The same scent ... was added in minute quantities to the sugar water and to a piece of filter paper in baits placed at various locations in the field." Odor thus remained a confounding factor in the experimental design. ******** I have great faith in the integrity of Kirchner, Towne, Lindauer, Anderson, and others. I am sure their results are valid --- particularly since the results in the sum total of their efforts falls into a neat mathematical distribution (random lognormal, as displayed in Fig. 4 of our 1991 AMERICAN ZOOLOGIST paper). How, then, could they conclude that they had succeeded? Maeterlinck (1901) encountered the same problem. He had conducted an experiment that yielded results counter to the notion of "language" use (see p. 43 of our 1990 book). However, a beekeeper friend repeated his experiment and obtained four "favorable" results. Maeterlinck concluded, "But I am convinced that my friend was misled by his desire, a very natural one, to see the experiment succeed." (translation from a French edition of THE LIFE OF THE BEE). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:11:00 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: The Midwest Beekeeping Symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a quick note about the Third Midwest Beekeeping Symposium - March 25, 2000 - for the those beekeepers between the mountains. The web page continues to be updated as the event comes together. It will have a great collection of beekeeping talent. The academic and the journeyman, the beginner and the old-timer will all find it a day well invested. Check out the web page. Brochures are available for the asking. http://www.blazing-star.com/mwbee.html Larry Krengel Northern Illinois Beekeepers' Association ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: pollen collection MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My question was not about corn specifically (although many have added corny (sic) comments), my question was about plants not included in McGregor. Specifically, > Can I assume if (plants) didn't make > McGregor's book the plants aren't of interest to honeybees or should I > assume the plants weren't of interest to McGregor? I don't think my question has yet been answered. Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:14:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: pollen collection In-Reply-To: <200001290038.TAA06069@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:11 PM 1/27/00 -0500, you wrote: I suspect that those that didn't make the book were not of interest to McGregor in his book because he focused on commercial pollination of crops. He did consulting in this area after he retired, I had some interesting conversations with him. I can't imagine that he accepted the commonly held notion that wind pollinated plants are not of interest to bees. The fact that a plant may not need an insect to pollinate it does not mean that pollinating insects have no interest in the pollen from it. I have found sedge pollen on bees in eastern Washington, watched bees gathering pollen from bunch grasses in the deserts of the SW U.S., found confir (pine and fir pollen) in large amounts in combs in western Montana, have heard reports of bees foraging dune grasses at the crack of dawn to get pollen. Back to my basic premise that bees don't read books nor let people tell them what they can and can not do. Same caution applies to almost everything about bees - don't believe everything you read and hear. I believe that we don't know nearly as much as we think we do about bees. Cheers ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:00:13 +0100 Reply-To: olda.vancata@quicknet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: olda.vancata@QUICKNET.SE Subject: Re: Computers v. apidictor. In-Reply-To: <22162205408032@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU> > Biggest obstacle is finding good, flexible, cheap sound analysis software, > but that was 5 years ago. May be common as dirt today. Remember, you may > need something a bit different than the software packages used to edit music. Cheap software is useless for this purpose. Software doing what is needed (FFT) costed 2 years ago around 800$ and I don't belive you can get it cheaper today. Still - checking swarm tendencies takes with a apparatus dedicated for this purpose 15-30 seconds. Switching on and off included. It does not exist software available designed for this purpose, so the computer is NOT telling you directly what is going on in the beehive. You need to analyse what is on the screen and you need to know what must be analysed. Which means - to analyse sound from the beehive take minutes. For a specialist. \vov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:56:36 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.F. Hensler" Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen Keith Forsyth wrote: and Re: my earlier post in regards to poppy pollen. Our experience is anecdotal only but we have not observed any evidence of the above in regards to bees working our poppy blooms. Perhaps the operative word in the above quote is "may"? To the contrary, we have found poppies to be valuable pollen producers due, if for no other reason, to the fact that they are highly productive during parts of the season when very little else is in bloom. As to "commercial" value" I suppose "commercial" can mean different things to different folks. Though we do not collect pollen, we do raise poppy seeds for commercial purposes and the reason we have bees is for poppy, as well as other, pollination . We closely observe both the poppy seed production and the health of our bees and IMHO, for whatever it may be worth, it is not necessary to sacrifice one in order to promote the other. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, Wash. http://wwwppovn.com/rock