From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:46 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06263 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01949 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01949@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:38 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0002A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 133467 Lines: 2774 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 19:46:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nik <113463.3610@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: bayer bee strip usage Comments: To: BEE-L@cnsibm.albany.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello? I came across a digest of this list - not sure if this is the correct way to address you, however... I have aquired the bayer bee strips containing coumaphos for use in my hives (along with the material safety sheet), but do not have guidance as to how they should be inserted... can anyone help me with this thank you ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Epipen In-Reply-To: <200002010500.AAA28342@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Re: Self administered epinephrine. I am not allergic to bees. In fact, I often get stung 50 or more times during the day when I am very busy. However, I am allergic to peanuts and the reaction is very swift and frightening. I have had the experience of sitting in the doctor's office being interrogated by a doctor's assistant while my throat was swelling shut. If you can get an "epipen" or two, I would certainly do it. I don't know of anyone who has been harmed by them and I have administered epinephrine by hypodermic in the field with no training when my 5 year old allergic daughter was stung (they didn't have "epipens" then). For milder reactions "benadryl" seems highly effective. I keep this with me always. PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 09:01:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: why do bees dance vs. how do they find resources The arguments provided to us regarding the "bee dance language" hypothesis versus other explanations regarding how naive bees are recruited to a food resource (or a new home, etc.) by scout bees have been fascinating and thought provoking. Here are some of the thoughts that have been provoked in me: It was not mentioned whether there was found to be a directional component in the information passed from the scouts to the recruitees. How about a distance component? If the bees find the resource by "smell", then does that mean that they can only find resources that are "upwind" from them. Does it work like pheromones that male moths follow to find a mate where they follow the molecules through the air? What happens when the wind direction changes. Can they still find the resources? I assume that once they've found it they use visual cues to find it again. Do all scout bees just scout upwind because that's the only way they can recruit naive bees to find a resource? What if there is "no wind"? Do the recruited bees search in a large circle around the hive, or do they go in a particular direction more directly toward the resource when recruited? Please forgive me for not having read the research papers on the subject before asking all these questions. Maybe they've already been answered somewhere. I love the way the questions have been rephrased, though: how do the scout bees communicate information to naive recruits? What information do they communicate? How do the naive recruits then find the resource? I assume that all these questions have not yet been answered sufficiently to we wouldn't still be arguing about them. Best wishes for further success in beekeeping and learning additional knowledge about what they do and how they do it. Since we are not bees, the why questions are much more difficult to answer except from our own perspectives, but their reasons for doing things may be quite different from ours would be. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, U.S.A., where peach trees are starting to bloom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Medicines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With all the talk of epipens, and shock from stings, this might be a = good time to ask about other medicines. This year I was diagnosed with irregular heart beat, and given several = medicines to combat it. Does anyone have any information on getting = stung after taking AMIODARONE (cordarone), COUMADIN, or ATTENOL??? = Haven't been stung yet, but would like to know ahead of time if others = have taken these meds and been alright. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Wlalt in SC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:29:42 -0600 Reply-To: Walter Weller Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Medicines Walt Barricklow asks about interaction of bee venom with certain cardiac medications, including cordarone and coumadin. Unless a cardiologist on the list replies to your question, Walt, I would go consult one, probably the one who diagnosed your arrythmia. For what it's worth, I have been taking both the above drugs for years, and have been stung many times (on one unfortunate occasion, by at least 300 bees) and have had no reaction either to the stings or from the drugs. I know that individuals may have vastly different reactions to the same stimulus, so my immunity from reactions may not be true in your case. Go see your doctor. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:33:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Medicines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt in SC wrote: Does anyone have any information on getting stung after taking AMIODARONE (cordarone), COUMADIN, or ATTENOL?? Coumadin in what my father in law is on for blood clots. It's a blood thinner that inhibits clotting. For him, a mild bruise doesn't stop bleeding and can turn into an ugly angry-looking, puffy blotch. He was on coumadin last summer when he stumbled into a yellow jacket's nest and was stung 7 times. By the next morning, the sting areas looked quite seriously affected and very bizarre. They were a dark red, almost like a plum color. From having seen it first-hand, I would say the reaction to the stings resulted in severe tissue trauma. It was unlike anything I've ever seen in the way of a reaction to an insect sting, and I associated it with the fact that he was on coumadin. They took him to the hospital the next morning. I'll ask what happened there and report back if anything was said or is remembered that is worthy of mention here. John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:20:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Medicines In-Reply-To: <200002011615.LAA12543@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All of these questions should be taken to your pharmacist. You should have been given the indications/contra-indications sheet when you first got your prescriptions. Although I take warfarin (it's a whole lot cheaper than patent Coumadin) and have been given no reason not to handle bees or to have epinephrine on hand, when you begin to take two, three, or more meds, the combinations can get complex and produce unusual results. Be sure to have a complete list of your meds, including non prescription drugs and herbals with you when you buttonhole your pill counter. Make sure to speak with a real pharmacist and not a clerk. You can also find several web-sites which file the particulars on the drugs you're taking. On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Barricklow, Walt wrote: > With all the talk of epipens, and shock from stings, this might be a = > good time to ask about other medicines. > > This year I was diagnosed with irregular heart beat, and given several = > medicines to combat it. Does anyone have any information on getting = > stung after taking AMIODARONE (cordarone), COUMADIN, or ATTENOL??? = --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Ideas for mite management and relocated feral hives Comments: To: flightdeck1@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <200001300148.UAA12587@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since my recent post to BEE-L on what to do with 'relocated feral' bees > didn't meet with the slightest suggestion, I was wondering if you had > any ideas on what you'd do for managing relocated feral bees if you > were in my shoes (roughly 1/2 my hives are relocated feral hives)? In > whatever small part, is there any good I can do for our bee gene-pool > without sacrificing the bunch or risking disease for the apiary? Or do > you believe there's absolutely no hope of bees surviving mites on their > own? > > I don't know why it is that 1000 beekeepers don't find feral hives > interesting. To me, they're the most fascinating part of beekeeping. Well, only a portion of the list members ever post, and, everyone is very busy right now, it seems. There have been a lot of fascinating ideas going by lately an competing for attention, too. I'm taking the liberty of CC'ing this to BEE-L, because I'm sure others will be interested -- even if they haven't formulated their thoughts on this question or gotten around to replying. To answer your question: my guess is that none of us really know the answers. I sure don't. There is so much news coming out that we are stunned. The Russian bees are the latest thing, but other bees are showing resistance to varroa in various places in America. This is not uncommon when a new parasite gets established; initially there are huge and catastrophic losses, then the host and parasite get a balance and after a while, the parasite becomes less of a problem. Maybe the host gets stronger and the parasite gets weaker, or maybe the parasite's parasites catch up with it. We don't really know. We saw that effect with tracheal mites, where initially huge losses were ascribed to them, but now many beekeepers seldom think of them, and many do not treat. Have you contacted Jack Griffes ? He works with the HIP project and has a web page on the topic: http://members.tripod.com/~Griffes/HIP1.html Hope this helps... allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:48:56 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Ideas for mite management and relocated feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well, only a portion of the list members ever post, and, everyone is very busy > right now, it seems. -- Since there are no feral bees in Alaska (with the possible exception of the southeast - "panhandle," I don't know of that area - I have been reluctant to speak up. I have not been so reluctant locally. I do believe, and have since I first heard of the mites, that in any population there are varying degrees of suceptibility to almost everything. I predicted back then that given a few years that mites would be a minor irritant rather than a problem within a few years. Now that seems to be coming about. If I could get true feral bees I would collect all I could get and give them NO medication whatsoever. Let those suceptible die out and make splits from the survivors. Tom "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2094 16:45:38 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Ideas for mite management and relocated feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew Westall of southern Colorado asks for ideas about what management strategies for relocated feral hives. Allen Dick makes a good response. My remarks are as follows: 1. "My guess is that none of us really know the answers," Allen says. 2. We, I, don't know anything about southern Colorado so we can't second guess your observations, and can't say your conclusions are wrong or even off the mark. 3. In Washington State the feral colonies are just beginning to appear again. They are obviously from beekeeper managed colonies. 4. "Old" feral colonies still exist in isolated areas such as remote forested areas where they still are reported in the walls of Grange halls. But when beekeepers collect swarms from these areas they are very susceptible to mite damage if they aren't treated. 5. According to work done by Dr. Sheppard when he was at USDA (now at Washington State University) the genetics of commercial and feral colonies in the south were not statistically different, nor the commercial and feral colonies in California. But there was a slight difference between California bees and southern bees. 6. This leads me to suspect that there is only a slight (if any) difference between the bees from Matthew's purchased queens and the feral colonies he collected. 7. There appears to be some measurable difference in mite tolerance between colonies as revealed by laboratory tests for tracheal mites and surveys for Varroa. 8. Verified reports still occur of documented cases of high losses from tracheal mites in the west even if most beekeepers don't pay them much attention. 9. Beekeepers still lose many colonies to Varroa because of treatments applied at the wrong time, not using enough Apistan strips, and resistance to fluvalinate. 10. Matthew's statement that 80-100 percent of the colonies would die if he didn't use mite treatments proves the susceptibility of the bees to mites. 11. What should Matthew do in the best interest of our gene pool? I doubt if you can do anything significant within your operation. 12. The Russian bees are only somewhat tolerant (I question resistance) to Varroa. In the northern states one treatment is still needed. Tom Rinderer is reported to have said that in the southern states one of the two treatments "might" be skipped. 13. If the Russian bees are bred into the gene pool of queen breeders across the country there would be some positive impact on genetic diversity, though maybe not of commercial value. 14. I don't see any practical way that Matthew can significantly influence the genetic pool in his area because he, and presumably others, are using commercially available queens and treating for mites. 15. Dr. Marla Spivak has shown that mite tolerance is a recessive gene which means that the trait must be constantly managed in bee lines to maintain it. The trait disappears naturally in several generations. 16. Significant promotion of genetic diversity and mite tolerance requires a substantial and concerted national effort to be successful. Having said that, if we all were to let susceptible colonies die off, we would get to mite resistance in the shortest possible time. 17. And, if we were to introduce strains of bees from other parts of the world and distribute them to all queen breeders in North America, we would diversify the gene pool in the shortest possible time. 18. We can monitor our surviving colonies, the ones that have the least number of mites in a survey and are the strongest colonies the first of February, and return these queens to breeders to breed into their strains. This would be doing the best we can to promote mite tolerance in commercial stock. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2094 15:56:42 -0800 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Bayer bee strip use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nik asks how to use the Bayer bee strip. I don't have a copy of the label with me or I'd quote it for you Nik. Please get a copy of the label from your bee equipment supplier. If you live in the US you should have received a copy of the Section 18 label with the strips. Technically it was illegal to sell you the product without a copy of the label. If your state doesn't have a Section 18 label the product is illegal in your state. If you live in another country consult your supplier, or your department or ministry of agriculture. Don't rely on another's direction on how to use the strips. You may get a wide variety of advice. Follow the label for best results. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:43:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Rollins Subject: Re: POLLEN PATTIES/EARLY SPRING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The elm trees are starting to bud here. We had a warm day of 50 f. day Sunday, after a week of 40 degree weather. The bees were flying heavily and carrying in yellow pollen. Joe Rollins Sw Mississippi W091 N31 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 23:02:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Honey Bee Consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Excerpts from: Griffin, D.R. 1995. "Windows on animal minds." Consc. and Cognition 4: 194-204. "The simple kinds of conscious thinking that probably occur in nonhuman animals can be studied objectively by using the same basic procedure that we use every day to infer what our human companions think and feel. This is to base such inferences on communicative behavior, broadly defined to include human language, nonverbal communication, and semantic communication in apes, dolphins, parrots, and honeybees. It seems likely that animals often experience something similar to the messages they communicate." "There is one well-studied example of animal communication where subject matter does entail readily identified objects that are remote in space and time from the situation where the animals are communicating. ...it occurs in one genus of social insects, the honeybees." "As might be expected, this surprising discovery of symbolic communication employed by insects has not gone unchallenged. As one critic put it, von Frisch's discovery seemed to upset 'the very foundation of behavior and biology in general' (Rosin, 1978. Such a claim makes sense only if our concepts of biology and animal behavior include a firm conviction that all insect behavior consists of stereotyped and inflexible instinctive responses. Although no one can seriously doubt that the waggle dances contain information about distance, Wenner and Wells (1990) have argued that bees do not use this information." ""The view that the behavior of all invertebrate animals is rigidly stereotyped and genetically programmed is now an outdated generalization. " "If parrots and honeybees are capable of simple conscious thinking, as suggested by the versatility of their communicative behavior, there is no solid ground for excluding a priori the possibility that simple perceptual consciousness and elementary forms of rational decision making may be quite widespread among multi-cellular animals." (Donald Griffin, Ph.D., is a biologist who has taught at Harvard, Cornell and Rockefeller Universities and currently works at Harvard's Concord Field Station, an animal research facility. He is the author of the 1992 book ''Animal Minds") ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:18:38 -0800 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Lavett Subject: Re: Poppy/ Hazlenut Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have both California and Asian poppies growing in this area, and, last season, I noted the bees worked the Asian poppies with great enthusiasm. Do you have any knowledge whether the Asian poppy has any of the ill effects as the opium poppy has? I collected a great amount of seed intending to plant this flower widely widely this spring. Keith B. Forsyth wrote: > Jane Ramsay, Plants for Beekeeping in Canada and the northern USA... (1987, > p.78), indicates that hazelnut pollen is poor in protein content. She also > notes on p.58 that although bees are highly attracted to poppy pollen, it > may have a narcotic effect on the bees, with opium poppy being the cause of > serious mortality of foraging bees. > Grimsby, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:31:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Justin Schmidt Subject: Swarm lures Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, Swarm trapping can be lots of fun and there is plenty of room for experimenting and increasing our knowledge. Back in the mid 80's I started a program at the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center to develop an effective way to lure swarms into traps or boxes. The key turns out to be the pheromone lure. Swarming bees use their Nasonov pheromone as their main chemical cue to organize house hunting, and what I did was make a synthetic slow release Nasonov pheromone lure that lasts about a year and is wonderfully attractive to swarms. The trap itself, the location of the trap, the time of year and other factors are also important. For European bees the best traps are the pulp based traps or old hive boxes. Cardboard boxes, plastic boxes, buckets, etc. are not suitable nests for bees and the bees recognize that. The result is very poor swarm occupancy in traps made of those materials. Until the pheromone became available, the best attractants were hive materials, especially old combs, propolis, etc. Africans used hollow logs with bee materials inside quite successfully to attract swarms. Part of our investigations were to determine just how important pheromone was and whether we could “tweak” the system by substituting, adding to, or deleting pheromone. In new clean traps, those with pheromone attracted 19 swarms; those without pheromone attracted only 4 swarms (Schmidt, J. Chem. Ecol. 20: 1053-56 [1994]). This clearly indicated that without pheromone most swarms were getting away. But what about old comb, and other hive products. A paper is just now submitted to address that situation, but some of the results are summarized in an abstract in the Dec. 1990 issue of American Bee J. on p. 812. In essence, it turns out that if one compares traps with pheromone as well as either an added old comb or that had housed a colony, with traps lacking pheromone, but had an added old comb or had housed a colony, the pheromone traps caught 13 swarms to the 3 of the traps with comb and no pheromone. This ratio is no different from the “clean” test results of 19 to 4. Thus, old comb does not enhance the attractiveness of pheromone. But what about old comb in the absence of pheromone? In this case (although it took a long time to attract enough swarms to get the numbers) the results were 11 swarms in traps with comb to 0 in traps without comb. This shows that in the absence of pheromone, comb has some attractiveness and is clearly better than nothing. The catch is that comb without pheromone is still not terribly attractive relative to pheromone. Bees have a distinct hierarchy of preferences! A couple of other points. Comb does have the disadvantages of being attractive to wax moths which make a mess, comb can have spores of foulbrood or other diseases, and in some states it is technically illegal to have comb out where it can spread disease. Comb is also expensive and valuable, something you might not want to lose. The main problem with pheromone is its availability. Mann Lake does sell the pheromone lures, as does Beemaster in Tucson (520 770-1463) and Fisher Enterprises (POB 1364, Coupeville, WA 98239; 360 678-8401) and perhaps some others. It is simple to make. The only problem is that the chemical suppliers will not sell the components to individuals (some excuse about lawyers and liability is my suspicion). Thus, beekeepers are basically stuck having to buy the pre-made lures. Information on the lures is in Amer. Bee J. 129: 468-71 (1989). Ted Fischer brings up an interesting observation. Often when a lure is in a trap, one will see clusters of a few to several hundred bees that just “hang around” inside the trap for weeks. We see that also and do not know exactly what it means. It could be either scouts that are so attracted to the cavity and lure that they do not leave, or it could be that they got lost and stranded (their swarm might have moved on) and have no place to go and are just naturally attracted to cluster around their own pheromone. Maybe somebody has some observations on this. Happy swarm hunting! Justin <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Justin O. Schmidt, PhD USDA-ARS Carl Hayden Bee Research Center 2000 East Allen Rd., Tucson, Arizona 85719, U.S.A. Office: 520 670-6380, extension 109 voicemail) FAX: 520 670-6493 Email: joschmid@u.arizona.edu For Bee & Pollination information on the World Wide Web Please visit us at http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/ <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 01:12:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Subject: Re: Swarm lures In-Reply-To: <200002020707.CAA21243@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Was there any indication during your work using the artificial lure that the lures themselves triggered a swarm? Or to skew the question slightly, what distance(s) from established hives did you place the lures? --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:20:08 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J.Bromenshenk you are quite right! (Jan.31st posting) We need both so I have altered the heading of this memo from 'versus' to 'and'. For the simple beekeeper who wants a prediction of swarming so that he can take the necessary preventive action, we need an apidictor substitute. For the more inquisitive who want to explore the spectrum just for fun, then the computer with appropriate software should fit the bill. Knowing nothing about it, I assume that this puts on screen a graph of the hive sound with frequency horizontally and amplitude vertically. Eddie Woods would have borrowed a spectrum analyser from the BBC and done the job manually, tuning to each frequency in turn, reading the meter and plotting the graph with pencil on paper. One point about the apidictor has just occurred to me. Eddie listened to the warble through a 225-285Hz band pass filter and noted that it stopped 2 days before the emergence of the swarm. (The calm before the swarm, you might say!) In his ABJ article, Olda Vancarta showed the warble continuing right up to the departure but moving up in pitch to peak at 300 Hz. It could well be that Eddie did not notice this because it took the sound out of the pass band of his filter. If anyone has Olda's article, I suggest they look at the two graphs and imagine them plotted on the same piece of paper. One could easily conclude that the well known queenless moan is simply an extension of the 'unemployed nurse warble'. Here is something that you computer buffs should study. Remember that for any investigation to do with swarming, the biggest difficulty is the fact that a colony does not spend much time doing it and your window of opportunity is something like 3 weeks in every 2 years and for some of that time operations will be interrupted by rain..For the other things Jerry wants to study you need hives with and without varroa, tracheal mites, hive beetles. Lots of parameters. Lots of hives. Lots of measurements. You either need hundreds of hives or an army of experimenters. You ought to form a separate group - call yourselves the 'beeputers' - to agree standards and a plan of action. Finally, 2 points from Jerry's last posting. 1) The apidictor was a stand-alone instrument intended to be fed into a human ear. I cannot visualise any circumstance where you would feed it into a computer unless you needed more signal and used it as a pre-amplifier. 2) Your second paragraph suggests that knowledge of an impending swarm is not much good unless you are there when it emerges. In Britain we learn procedures that can be used to prevent swarms; this protects our honey crop and, more important, avoids bees escaping to infect our neighbours colonies with varroa. Don't you bother with such things where you live? Rex Boys, Worcestershire, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Mites and feral hives In-Reply-To: <200002020501.AAA18219@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings , I hope everyone read carefully what James C. Bach wrote. He covered a lot of ground, but covered it well. He wrote: >5. According to work done by Dr. Sheppard when he was at USDA (now at >Washington State University) the genetics of commercial and feral colonies >in the south were not statistically different, nor the commercial and feral >colonies in California. But there was a slight difference between >California bees and southern bees. >6. This leads me to suspect that there is only a slight (if any) difference >between the bees from Matthew's purchased queens and the feral colonies he >collected. In this age of DNA testing, it's important to understand the meaning of "statistically different" to which I would add: "significantly different." Are they different in a significant way? When considering "feral" hives and the potential for genetic improvement one must realize that these bees are recent escapes. In order to bring about real change, one must have 1) isolation, 2) selective pressure, and 3) time. The pressure is there, obviously. But the isolation and time are not. Another important factor is the size of the pool. If the pool is very small, one gets inbreeding, which in bees is fatal (the eggs don't hatch). Consider the Italian Bee. It was isolated on the Italian peninsula for perhaps hundreds of thousands of years by the sea, and the mountains to the north. And it is not as different from the other European bees as it is from the African types, which may have been separated from it for millions of years by the deserts. Nature use the techniques of variation and replication. But replication is by far the stronger of the two; it takes a long time to produce a significant change and then, if it becomes permanent, it is replicated very closely. >15. Dr. Marla Spivak has shown that mite tolerance is a recessive gene >which means that the trait must be constantly managed in bee lines to >maintain it. The trait disappears naturally in several generations. Breeding bees is our only hope for genetic improvement because one can control the isolation, the selective pressure, and speed up the time. However, one must always be on guard against inbreeding as well as linkage. Some traits are linked, some not, and this can be good or bad. Dr. Roger Morse told me that certain hybrid bee programs were highly successful in producing bees that raised a lot of brood, but that they didn't necessarily produce more honey (though it was claimed that they did). Furthermore, how would you feel about varroa resistance if it was linked, say, to extreme aggression? The concept of genetically related disease resistance was promoted by Brother Adam. It is instructive to note that he observed resistance to tracheal mites in a population that 1) survived devastating losses and 2) consisted of a cross between the old black bee and the Italians. Producing such crosses became his life's work because of the importance that he gave to them. With the dispersal of honey bees all over the world, it is very difficult to find pure strains with which to do such crosses, hence the move to closed breeding programs like Cobey and Spivak use. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 07:53:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002021239.HAA24680@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Your second paragraph suggests that knowledge of an impending swarm is > not much good unless you are there when it emerges. In Britain we learn > procedures that can be used to prevent swarms; this protects our honey crop > and, more important, avoids bees escaping to infect our neighbours colonies > with varroa. Don't you bother with such things where you live? PMFJI, but I have an answer for this. May be it is not the same as others might have, but it is pretty typical. I have hives spread over a 100 mile radius in yards that are somewhat distant from one another. Swarming occurs from time to time and we monitor it, but generally the levels are pretty low -- so low as to not justify having anyone chase them. We tried it one year and caught quite a few swarms (numerically, but not as a percentage of the total hives). We had a person drive around to all yards in sequence and pick up all swarms that could be found. As it turned out, we had an early fall, and few of the swarms built up to produce anything or even to be worth wintering. All-in-all, it was a waste of time. As for varroa and neighbours, we have about the same levels as they do. That's not to say that in some years, and in some places the results might not be different, but in our situation, with scarce resources and short season, we find that it is best to do good spring work to a whole yard on a scheduled visit (for details, see my site) -- that PREVENTS most swarms without special monitoring and call-backs, then let nature take her course. I suppose we might have managed the above swarms more and maybe done better with them, but everything has an opportunity cost and we put our best efforts where we expect we will get our best results (thanks to Peter Drucker for that powerful idea). All other activities are secondary. And... if we have neglected a yard and thus suspect it may swarm, we go out when swarming time is about to get going, and split any that have cells on the bottom bars. With the current price of honey, and cost of bees, we figure any sacrifice in honey crop is repaid in having a second hive -- one that we created under our control. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Mites and feral hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James Bach wrote: ... > 10. Matthew's statement that 80-100 percent of the colonies would die if > he didn't use mite treatments proves the susceptibility of the bees to > mites.... I wonder about this. Are the captured swarms kept in isolation, or are they moved into a bee yard with other hives? If the later, it could possibly be the proximity to other hives that are tipping the scales towards varroa infestation. Feral hives I have known are usually isolated enough that drifting is not a parameter in spreading mites, or at least not as great a parameter as drifting would be in a beeyard with other hives in much closer quarters. It could be that moving a captured feral hive into closer proximity to other colonies increases the infestation pressure. It might not be the susceptibility of feral hives per se, but rather an increased pressure put upon ANY hives in higher colony population densities. Comments anyone? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:57:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002021239.HAA24686@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rex Boys said: The apidictor was a stand-alone instrument intended to be fed into a human ear. I cannot visualise ..feed into a computer... used it as a pre-amplifier. > That's the idea. Computer or simple communications device could feed this information to your desk top. Not much advantage if your hive is in the backyard. Big advantage if far away. Your second paragraph suggests that knowledge of an impending swarm is not much good unless you are there when it emerges. In Britain we learn procedures that can be used to prevent swarms > So do we. If we could successfully prevent all swarms, one wouldn't need a warning system (whether an apidictor or some other device). Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:19:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002021559.KAA04387@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Back to the wish list. Sound is interesting and has many possibilities, temperature sensing has its uses, bee egress & ingress counts can be valuable, but I think the main interest to me -- for day to day beekeeping -- would be an inexpensive and reasonably sensitive individual hive weight data stream accessible in real time at a remote location with interpreter software and an alarum system, possibly with voice synthesis and a phone dialer. Let me dream about what I could learn: * When a hive is approaching starvation * When and where there is a flow on and * Which individual hives are becoming honeybound * How soon a visit will be required * Which hives have ceased work and thus * Which hives need inspection, splitting, requeening, etc. * Which hive is likely to swarm * Which hive has just swarmed * How windy it is (rocking motion) at a location * Which hive just had its lid blow off * Which hive has a bear at work on it * Which yard has cattle or horses bothering the hives * Which hive is being robbed * When a yard of bees is being picked up for moving (Is it my guys or bee rustlers?) * When, how quickly, and how well my men are working * How many supers they removed and how many they replaced * When a skunk is bothering the hives * When a mouse is entering the hive? * What time of day the flow occurs * Whether working the hives is disrupting production * What concentration of nectar is coming in (night loss) * When my neighbouring beekeeper hops over the fence and looks to see why my hives are better than his In addition to receiving emergency calls on my cell phone from my computer reporting that someone was taking my hives away or that some hives were knocked over, I could routinely view several reports each morning: * Unusual Occurrences & Problems Detected * Previous Day's Work Accomplished c/w Schedule and other data * Unprofitable Yards * Proposed Day's Rounds (perhaps using critical and economic impact path analysis). * Work Required in the Next Week And on and on. All this comes from sensitive real time measurement of weight. The real time component of this data allows calculations of rates and deduction of a lot of important management benchmarks. Combined with hive numbering and perhaps bar code stickers on each hive, this system allows individual management of each hive. Hives that do not need attention can be passed by, and the problems dealt with. I would suggest that over 75% of the time and resources we now spend in hive management would be saved, and yet we would achieve better yields and colony health. Reporting and record keeping would be proactive, rather than reactive, and lead in time, rather than trail! allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:55:50 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rex Boys Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that Jerry.J.B. has missed the point of the apidictor. When it tells you that the bees are planning to swarm, it expects you to open them up there and then and take your swarm avoidance measures. You do not send a message back to base to be actioned in the future. In his last paragraph he says that if all swarms could be prevented, one wouldn't need a warning system. Surely, it is the other way round! The purpose of the warning system is to allow you to prevent all swarms. For example; one swarm prevention method is to divide the colony into two brood boxes, one above the other. I cannot remember the exact details, but one half has the queen and the other has the cells. The colony thinks it has already swarmed, you do not lose any bees and you do not spread your varroa to anybody else. Then you can either separate them and have an extra colony or re-unite them with a new queen. Either way you gain in honey crop. You must have a completely different philosophy from us due, no doubt, to the enormous distances between bee yards and what the management men describe as cost/benefit. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: CBC Radio and bee navigation, Sat. Feb. 5th MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's (CBC) programme Quirks and Quarks will have a discussion about" how honey bees find their way back home." http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/quirks/ The broadcast will be made on: Feb. 5th, 1209-1300 EST on CBC Radio One 99.1 FM. It will also be available in real-time, just go to the above website. Keith Grimsby, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:54:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Honey Bee Consciousness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" For info on "Windows on Animal Minds" Abstract: http://www.idealibrary.com/links/artid/ccog.1995.1025/production Complete text: http://www.idealibrary.com/links/artid/ccog.1995.1025/production/pdf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:46:20 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Deodato Wirz Vieira Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Allen Dick wrote: >>Back to the wish list. Sound is interesting and has many possibilities, >>temperature sensing has its uses, bee egress & ingress counts can be >>valuable, but I think the main interest to me -- for day to day beekeeping >>-- would be an inexpensive and reasonably sensitive individual hive weight >>data stream accessible in real time at a remote location with interpreter >>software and an alarum system, possibly with voice synthesis and a phone >>dialer.<< I ask: Why not sound, temperature, bee count and weight? Would it really get SO expensive? About the wish list: That's IT!! It is exactly what I was waiting to hear from someone. It's actually my wish list too. To me it would seem that so much hardware only for swarm prediction woul be a waste. Deodato Wirz Vieira ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 23:07:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: DNBrown Subject: Still More Epipen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like Peter Borst I am also peanut allergic, and recently became allergic to bees (after many stings, suddenly one "got" me with a big systemic reaction). One factor besides swelling and breathing difficulties I feel I should mention is blood pressure collapse. When a severe allergic reaction gets going, the capillaries all open up and your blood pressure plummets. Epinephrine is a powerful vasoconstrictor that counteracts this. Very low blood pressure is as serious as breathing problems and can kill you too- this is the "shock" component of anaphylactic shock reactions. A sting-ee can be breathing just fine and suddenly pass out. A side effect of the suddenly lowered BP is the lack of blood to the brain, which makes thinking and planning difficult. This is why the EpiPen is replacing the AnaKit, you just have to push it into your thigh. An Epipen is a good thing to keep around if you have bees. I would use it on someone with breathing problems or sudden dizziness or light-headedness, including, now, me! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 00:04:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Still More Epipen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/2/00 11:13:07 PM, dnbrown@MA.ULTRANET.COM writes: <> Is there a life for you in beekeeping after "a big systemic reaction"? Is your newfound sensitivity something that can be treated or resolved, or in some way "cured"? I've not heard anyone say this, but it has been strongly implied that getting a big systemic reaction in beekeeping is equivalent to a football player ripping his knee ligament to pieces — Your career is over. I seem to recall reading in Richard Taylor's "Joy of Beekeeping" that the first time he got stung by a honey bee he described something that resembled a severe systemic reaction. Obviously, he continued with his beekeeping career. Are such reactions ever just one-time events or do they always signal something worse the next time around? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 05:15:55 -0600 Reply-To: scotia@bellsouth.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: scotia Subject: Epi-pens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DNBrown makes an excellent point when saying: "One factor besides swelling and breathing difficulties I feel I should mention is blood pressure collapse." The main purpose of the Epi-pen is to help keep the blood pressure up so that a person having a reaction does not go into "anaphylactic shock". If this happens, the brain and all other organs are not receiving oxygen and everyone knows what that leads to. I've heard mixed reports of Epi-pens, mainly that one should keep them in a cooler or thermos and not carry them around in the heat. Our hives are near the house, so we put one in a pocket when we go out. If the pen contains discolored fluid or if there are particles or precipitates in it, it should not be used. Check the date on the pen and get a new one when it is out of date. Several years ago, one of my sons was on a build-up program of allergy shots for allergies other than venom( such as molds, grasses, house dust and mites) when he had a reaction on the way home. It started with itching, whelps, and wheezing. His father did not recognize what was happening, but fortunately, my astute mother-in-law did and immediately returned my son to the doctor. After about 2 hours of meds, the first of which was epi, he got much better. He has had no further reactions and uses allergy shots regularly. Our physcian gave us scripts for Epi-pens for everyone in the family who was with our son to keep in their home or vehicle "just in case".. My brother had one in his vans, improperly stored and out of date for about a year. On his job, he was stung by a hornet, never before had he a problems with insect stings, but while returning to his van, he realized he was in trouble. He barely managed to open the door, found the pen on the console and stabbed it in his thigh through his pants. He recovered enough to go where he could get help and was taken by ambulance to the ER. The doctor told him how lucky he was, without the Epi-pen, he would have died. The moral of the story is: 1. You do not have to be known as allergic to have a reaction. People rarely react with the first sting of their life. 2. You may not have much time to react before becomming unable to help yourself, keep the Epi-pen close at hand. 3. Please store the epi-pen appropriately, and you will not have to use a bad one. 4. Seek medical advice before you have a reation to a sting! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 04:49:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor Comments: To: "sci.ag.bee" In-Reply-To: <200002021829.NAA10434@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this note, and since I suspect the topic is of general interest, I am sending a copy of my response to the list. (referring to the wireless, remote reading, computerised hive weight monitoring system) > I presume a one-off of these would be rather expensive. If (a developer) > manages to get it right what do you think are the market possibilities? Simply put, and not to exaggerate, I think that such a system would immediately become a necessity for most commercial beekeepers in developed countries. I spend over $100,000 (US funds) annually for fuel and labour. If the savings in fuel and labour were 10% -- a very low estimate, I believe -- that is $US10,000 a year and $US3.33 per bee hive. If the savings were 25%, which is not unrealistic IMO, then that is $US8.33/hive/year, or $US333 per yard of 40 hives per year. Splitting that in some ratio between the beekeeper and the service would make both quite happy, I would think. Add to the above savings the increased income that comes from knowing what areas are paying off and which are not, the savings in insurance and losses from having real time theft monitoring (and tracking), the ability to monitor disease and queen performance on a hive-by-hive basis and we are talking a real income improvement for beekeepers using the system. After all, in business, the net profit is only a small fraction of gross receipts. Even a 10% improvement in revenue vs. expense can double the money in the pocket of the owner at the end of the year. Moreover the fact that, using the system we envision, hive visits can be managed according to measured need, not guesses. This can eliminate many wasted days and, allow more leisure time or time to deal with other matters. Such a system could be sold outright, but should -- IMO -- preferably be sold as an ongoing service with wireless connections, maintenance, software, and regular hardware and software upgrades included. The beekeeper would be responsible for all the field installations and report design (non-programming), the supplier for all the rest. Such a system would have to be entirely wireless, rugged as a hockey puck, and probably solar powered. If individual transducers were used, they would have to be indestructible, wireless and non-obtrusive. Maybe they could be in little rubber chunks that somehow go under a hive or the corner of a pallet and are polled by a wireless monitor/repeater in each yard. Alternately -- and preferably, perhaps -- a rotating laser head in each yard could monitor tiny changes in the height of a black mark on each hive and deduce compression of the hive base spring component, and then calculate weight changes, assuming there were some sort of compliant, yet resilient hive base component placed somehow under each hive. In this latter method, rain would cause swelling of wood and settling of earth under hives. This would affect the readings, but software should be able to filter such effects out, especially if an empty reference hive were used. We must remember that the data we require is all *relative* and more or less a continuous in time, not absolute single observations; therefore calibration is not very important, but consistency between transducers is. Absolutes might be inferred, but are not the goal. Simply put, we are watching weight *changes* in time and deducing meaningful events from the patterns that arise when such changes are expressed as rates and compared to other simultaneous data and defined historical events. We are _not_ trying to say what each hive weight actually is at any given moment. Empirical data could conceivably be acquired by conventional methods and used for calibration periodically if absolute values are desired, but I am not very interested in this aspect and suspect that it would be tougher to get right. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Palmer Organization: French Hill Apiaries Subject: Re: Still More Epipen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Not so. I know of several beekeeper children (my daughter being one)who had severe reactions(one almost died). After going through the desensitizing they can be stung without problems. I've worked with the boy who almost died, and he's quite a good beekeeper now. We were both well stung up, with no problem. See your allergy expert, and don't forget to get your weekly venom once desensitized. John Mitchell wrote: > Is there a life for you in beekeeping after "a big systemic reaction"? Is > your newfound sensitivity something that can be treated or resolved, or in > some way "cured"? > I've not heard anyone say this, but it has been strongly implied that > getting a big systemic reaction in beekeeping is equivalent to a football > player ripping his knee ligament to pieces — Your career is over. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:57:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: medicines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Many thanks for all the assistance of bee stings and medications. I = have Atrial Fibrillation, and even after checking with the Drs and the = cardioligists, and the pharmacist, they know all about medicines and = interactions, but none that I checked with are bee keepers. From = information that I gathered from this list, Im not real worried about = being stung now. May take a few precautions to insure that I going to = alright, but thanks again Walt in SC (almost Spring) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen Dick had quite a list. Let me say that it is all possible. In fact, It is pretty much as written in my notebook in 1972. The problem is convincing a few large operations that it would be worth $100/hive to maximize the efficiency of a $200 hive. Weighing the hive is a problem. I can get load cells where the computer could count the number of bees that took off by the change of weight of individual bees but they don't like to have 200 pound hives setting on them. A single load cell under a hive with a weight transferal mechanism used in scales requires leveling, unreasonable for the distribution of hives. You thus wind up with four load cells, each corner of the hive, too expensive today. We are seeing new load sensors coming out of micro machining (the same process that gives us low cost electronics) that may drop the cost. I think beekeeping will enjoy a significant benefit from the information revolution. computers are in everything and will get into our hives. Our knowledge is only as good as the information gathered. It was pointed out that the study of swarming requires a lot of serendipity, being in the right place at the right time, during a very small time window of the year. If data from a few thousand hives could be gathered automatically, Jerry and his cohorts would have more data than they could shake hypotheses at, and then check out! Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary email home: raymondj@cleanweb.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Computers and Apidictors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The idea of fully instrumenting hives with general purpose industrial grade sensors has two problems: too much money and too many wires. If the job is to be done for a reasonable cost and without excess cumbersome wiring, more cleverness must be applied. For instance, though one could get by with but 3 load cells per hive, that's still too much money and too many wires. If one were to build a tiny, low power radio transmitter with a lithium cell to go inside a stiff spring, in which the spring determined the carrier frequency, and seal the whole assembly into a rubber bellows, there would be a fairly reliable relationship between spring compression, proportional to weight, and carrier frequency. The receiver for this and other functions would not need wires to get the message. Right now I'm working on self contained wireless temperature sensors, and they must be cheap. I wish in no way to impugn the good work others are doing with more conventional instrumentation. They are pioneers who point the way for dedicated and cheap custom data acquisition. Consider that when mouses for computers were first made they cost hundreds of dollars each. Another pioneering effort is putting up with the bugs of new instruments until they are perfected, and perfecting includes working down the price. Many patient beekeepers may be needed for that part. A third task (actually first) is what Allen has been doing, thinking about needs. This is an excellent discussion! Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:38:47 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rex Boys wrote: > > I think that Jerry.J.B. has missed the point of the apidictor. > > > In his last paragraph he says that if all swarms could be prevented, one > wouldn't need a warning system. > Surely, it is the other way round! The purpose of the warning system is to > allow you to prevent all swarms. > > > You must have a completely different philosophy from us due, no doubt, to > the enormous distances between bee yards and what the management men > describe as cost/benefit. Hello All, I look at swarm prevention as all those steps needed to keep the hive in a well balanced expansion mode.The nature of the bee is to expand there populations in the spring.Our trick is to try to control the room that they need . Give them a new queen that has strong pheromones to control the hive and lessen the desire for the bees to swarm.We all have our own check off lists. It takes work and some knowledge to what point the bees are in regards to swarming. You should try to be ahead of the swarm cells. By then your already in too much trouble. The hive behaviour after the cells are in place , puts you behind hive control. Then it is just causality control. Any added knowledge that we can obtain through the use of technology is the place we should be.I have seen Jerry's electronic hives a couple of years ago. There is no way to explain there potential. We will all gain from them.There tools at this point in time.Ways to understand more of bee behaviour. All tools are important and have there place in expanding our knowledge of the hohey bee. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:11:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Computers and Apidictors It seems to me from the discussion that there would be a market for both the "computerized hive" and the "standalone apidictor" depending upon the way one managed his/her beekeeping operation, whether the person was a sideliner a commercial beekeeper or a hobbyist, and what the priorities of the person are as well as their level of experience with beekeeping. It's easy to conceive that there would be a market for both. One might start out (get their feet wet) with an apidictor and then later graduate to more advanced technology. It would seem to me that a modernized version of the apidictor would be a step and the progression of applying more and more advanced electronics and technology to beekeeping operations. I wouldn't disparage the apidictor just because it doesn't do everything if what it does is worthwhile. It is just one worthwhile point in a progressing continuum. Again, it may be worthwhile to a (one) part of the market and not to another. I for one feel that an inexpensive standalone apidictor would be worth having and using while I'm "waiting" for the fancy "cadillac" to become available. Just my 2 cents worth. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Computers and Apidictors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Morong wrote: > > The idea of fully instrumenting hives with general purpose industrial grade > sensors has two problems: too much money and too many wires. > Bill Morong Ok, If load cells are not quite right lets go back to the reason for them. Determining nectar inflow and feed level. I bet we can come up with a different sensor than weight to work this out. For instance, a humidity sensor, airflow sensor, or sound frequency and amplitude analysis could be used to determine when nectar is being ripened. Have any studies been done to determine the difference in the body temp of a bee when returning empty, water filled, nectar filled, or pollen bearing? If so then infrared would do. As well as track the presence of warm blooded animals. How about an odor sensor to determine, nectar, pollen, excrement, pheromones, decay, wood rot, fresh wax, medication levels, pesticide levels, fermentation? Thom "Thinking I'm thinking out loud, again." Bradley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:39:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by betterbee@NYCAP.RR.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=4E16C560) (55 lines) -------------- Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:03:52 -0600 From: Bob Stevens To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor THE COMPUTERIZED SCALES ARE IN USE IN GERMANY AND HAVE BEEN FOR SEVERAL YEARS. THE WEIGHT IS COMMUNICATED BACK TO THE HONEY HOUSE BY MODEM. THE DEVELOPER TOLD ME HE HAD TO HAVE THIS SYSTEM SO HE KNEW WHEN TO PUT A SUPER ON HIS HIVES IN THE BLACK FOREST. I SUGGESTED HE JUST PUT THREE OR FOUR ON IT A TIME THE WAY I DID IN THE U.S. HIS RESPONSE WAS DISDAINFUL TO SAY THE LEAST. THE SCALES WERE PRICEY BECAUSE THEY HAD TO BE WEATHERPROOF. OF COURSE, HE GETS ABOUT $4.00 A POUND FOR HIS BLACK FOREST HONEY AND HIS GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGES THE MARKETING OF "GERMAN" HONEY, WHEREAS OUR GOVERNMENT ENCOURAGES THE MARKETING OF ARGENTINIAN HONEY. THE RESULTING DIFFERENCE BETWEEN $4.00 A POUND AND .40 CENTS A POUND BUYS A LOT OF COMPUTERIZATION. BOB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:59:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As regards knowing when supers are full, it would be very surprising if a gross check of the dielectric constant and dissipation factor perpendicular to the frames in a super did not relate in some meaningful way to the honey content thereof. Beeswax is a fine dielectric, and so is air. When full of bees, frames might be somewhat lossy and of intermediate dielectric constant. When full of nectar the dielectric constant might be quite high, and the lossiness might relate to water content. Wires in the frames will have little effect if orthogonal to the applied field, or might even be used as electrodes. These data are cheap to measure, and might either supplant or aid weight sensors. Regarding Thom's post: just because load cells might be a bit clumsy and expensive doesn't mean we must give up on weight. Instead we should find cheap and convenient ways to measure it. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Viktor Sten Subject: Re: Computers and Apidictors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It should be possible to make do with one only load cell per hive. Make a T where the top of the T is hinged to a pallet and the load cell is under the other end of the T, the bottom board of the hive should then be secured to the T for stability. Viktor in Hawkesbury, On. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Mites and feral hives In-Reply-To: <200002030500.AAA12199@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Aaron wrote: Feral hives I have known are usually isolated enough that drifting is not a parameter in spreading mites Peter: Not drifting, but how about robbing? Since bees can fly over 5 miles, I wonder how far an escaped swarm can ever be from an apiary. Presumably the feral hive escaped from an apiary to begin with... and I have read that colonies dying of mites will leave the nest and move in with healthy bees... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:50:20 PST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Deodato Wirz Vieira Subject: Re: Still More Epipen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>From: DNBrown Like Peter Borst I am also peanut allergic, and recently became allergic to bees (after many stings, suddenly one "got" me with a big systemic reaction).<< Since the beginnig o this Epipen discussion, I have been trying to recall in which of my books I read something like the following: "...allergic reactions to bee venom can also occur in individuals that were exposed to bee stinging (like beekeepers)for a certain period of time and then interrupt the stimulus. When they get stung again they are more prone to an overreaction of their immunological system." I will continue to research my library and when I do find the book report its name. Deodato Wirz Vieira ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 07:35:11 -0000 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Organization: Westgate, waterville Subject: Irish Varroa Seminar South Western Region MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am pleased to be able to confirm that the varroa seminar run the Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations will be held at the International Hotel, Killarney on April 2nd. starting at 13.30hrs. The Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations will be providing the expert speakers, further details may be got by e-mailing me off-list The Kerry Association is proud to be involved in the dissemination of knowledge about this new threat to apis melifera. Ruary Rudd rrudd@eircom.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:48:13 +0000 Reply-To: aweinert@tpgi.com.au Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Weinert Subject: pollination web site for Western Australia Comments: To: bee-l@cnsibm.albany.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I was recently looking at this web site at work. I think it will be valuable for many people other than Western Australians http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/programs/dairy/robmanning/index.htm There are many great photo'sand information about many sources of honey and pollen regards Andrew Weinert 2 Purslowe st Mt. Hawthorn WA 6016 08 9443 1463 aweinert@tpgi.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:35:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: pollination web site for Western Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/4/00 7:20:58 AM EST, aweinert@TPGI.COM.AU writes: << I think it will be valuable for many people other than Western Australians http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/programs/dairy/robmanning/index.htm There are many great photo'sand information about many sources of honey and pollen >> Rob Manning is a real go getter. He has certainly advanced the cause of managed pollination in Australia. You can find links to Rob's material and many other valuable pollination resources at the Pollination Home Page. Growers are now planning their season in the Northern Hemisphere and they may be looking for pollinators. Is your listing in the pollination page yet? We have been promoting this as a resource for growers, and soon will be promoting it more heavily. Almond pollination season is very close, and listings for this purpose must be made very soon. Last spring several growers and beekeepers were matched through the listing of beekeepers who do pollination service. If your grower found you thru last year's listing, please let me know. All you have to do to get listed (it's free!) is to send me the appropriate info. Check to current listings to get the format. We've been averaging three new listings per week so far this year. I've been getting a couple hundred e-mails a day, so if you don't get a response, try again. I'll give you a private address for future use. I've been getting reports of severe losses in the northeastern US. How are you guys doing? I do some writing for growers, and I'd like to pass along status reports, so please let me know what's going on. It looks iffy in the southeast. We have had an extremely mild fall and early winter, with a lot of consumption. Right now everything I have needs feed, and I can't get to most of them, because winter suddenly turned severe. We've had the most snow in a decade, and it was water laden, followed by a lot more rain, so everything is very soggy. I've made a management decision not to sell nucs this year, as I think I need to build up my operation a bit. There is no money in empty equipment setting around, even if honey prices are low. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Research Funding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings, At Dr. Wenner's suggestion, I have been going back over some of his publications to get a feel for what he has said in the past 30 years about the "bee dances." In front of me I have the American Bee Journal article of Feb. 1987. (At the lab we have all ABJs going back to 1900 and and Gleanings back to 1873, issue #1). He says: "we feel it should be obvious to beekeepers ... that they have not benefited from the dance language hypothesis during its 4 decades of existence. ... Surely beekeepers should have benefited from the language by now if it had merit, considering ... the large amount of grant support which has been allotted to this problem." The problem with this is two-fold. First, much of the research that continues to be done on bees falls into two areas: the search for practical solutions to problems, and the inquiry into the inner workings of bee colonies. The first type beekeepers naturally want and wish their tax dollars to go to this. The second type is part of an ongoing quest to understand animal behavior (not just bees, of course) and the funding by and large comes from entirely different sources. Secondly, entirely too much emphasis is placed on the practical value of research. This translates into "if I get a patent on this, I will get rich." You see this in all areas, including agriculture. Industry pours millions into studying products that will make billions. Who is interested in studying methods that involve non-patentable products or techniques? One place where pure research is carried out is in the University system. Obviously, this has to be funded and the competition for grant money is fierce. But one would hope that some money will always go to projects that are intended to expand our understanding of life, as well as projects that *may pay off in the long run* but where the pay-off is not yet in sight. I only bring this up because it seems to be central to his and Dr. Rosin's argument against the idea that bees communicate through dancing. Many of us involved in research hope that funding does not dry up for further inquiry into insect communication and the study of how their colonies are organized. It is thoroughly fascinating to learn about how groups apparently can self-govern in the absence of a definite leader -- but that is another story! PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Computers In-Reply-To: <200002040502.AAA02880@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings! I have been avoiding all the talk about computers in beehives but something popped into my head. What if you got up one spring morning and fired up the old PC and while you were sipping your coffee you saw this: Good morning Dave. It is 1 May 2001. The sun is shining and we expect 85 degree weather. 120 of your hives swarmed yesterday, Dave. 2733 of your hives are preparing to swarm with a 87% probability of success. You will need approximately 3200 supers on your truck today. Tomorrows weather is expected to be... PB :-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:57:50 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why not sound, temperature, bee count and weight? >Would it really get SO expensive? It is very expensive to develop this kind of equipment. The questions that the developers of this equipment will ask is how much are you willing to spend per hive and how many hives do you have that you want to monitor? Lets do an informal poll. Send me a message off list that states: US $ per hive you would spend - Number of hives you would monitor - I will summarize the responses them post them on the list in a weeks time. John Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 08:52:44 -0800 Reply-To: honeyboy@pacbell.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mason Harris Subject: Beginning Bee Keeping Course in San Mateo MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Beekeepers Guild of San Mateo County, California, will be conducting an Introduction to Beekeeping class on Saturday, February 26, from 9:00 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Registration is $25 and includes a copy of course materials. The class will be held in the city of San Mateo. For more information or to register, contact Sue at (510) 489-4952 (e-mail Suzbeez@aol.com), or Bill at (650) 365-5548. Course location and directions will be sent with registration confirmation. -- Mason Harris, KarinaBee Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:46:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: observation hive in my house Comments: To: Bee-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question: I just bought my first house. I have always dreamed of my own observation hive in the wall. I have had them before as a kid in an old work shop. My question is now that im designing one for my wall, I would like to know the exact bee space inbetween the glass and the first set of frames as to reduce the burr comb on the glass? thanks. Andrew Dubas dubees@enter.net ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 09:37:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Weather, epipens & bee pests & predators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/4/00 1:00:23 PM, Pollinator@AOL.COM writes: << I've been getting reports of severe losses in the northeastern US. How are you guys doing?>> The upshot of the Northeast's ongoing severe cold weather is that the population of insects whose queens winter over in the soil is going to be heavily suppressed this summer. That includes wasps, hornets and the evil yellow jackets. The wasps will be suppressed because of the way this cold snap has frozen the soil. I talked to a plumber who confirmed what has been reported in local newscasts — there have been a greater number of bursting pipe incidents than has been seen around here in a long time. Usually when it gets this cold, there is a layer of snow on the ground to insulate the soil from the cold, he said. There hasn't been very much snow, so the ground has frozen deeper, and everything along with it, like the pipes and the yellowjacket queens. I understand the Southeast has been getting some colder-than-usual weather so it may be true for beekeepers there, too. WIth fewer yellowjackets, we should see a reduced number of so-called "bee stings" — when yellowjackets sting people and honey bees get the blame. So for those colonies that do make it through, and for the beekeepers that manage them, this summer may be a little more pleasant than the last one. I would also guess that this weather is going to severely effect any feral hives out there, so there may be reduced likihood of feral hives reinfesting managed colonies with mites. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 21:14:00 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Fabricated Royal Jelly literature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If there are any members from Germany on this list could you please forward reference to two important documents relating to the safety of bee products. They can both be found at www.beekeeping.co.nz/scirev.htm One was undertaken by a New Zealand parliamentary select committee and the other by a scientific inquiry established by the New Zealand Minister of Health. The latter report includes a risk analysis undertaken by the deputy chair of the CODEX (joint WHO/UN organisation that sets international food standards) risk analysis task force. In 1997 German officials were sent false information by the Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) which directly lead to royal jelly being banned as a food/supplement. The TGA has even incorporated fabricated data into official records. Ron Law Executive Director National Nutritional Foods Association of New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 06:14:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "James D. Satterfield" Subject: TBH Website Revision Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Colleagues, I have finally, finally gotten around to revising and updating the Top Bar Hive Beekeeping website at the url: http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm Alternate titles are no longer added for photographs, and that might make the website a little less useful to those who have only LYNX browsers, but I have not used frames. I set the pages up for viewing with Netscape 4.7, though they also seem to work well with Internet Explorer. I have changed all of the preformatted text to html paragraph; used some color, thumbnail images, and separations to make the pages "prettier" and perhaps easier to read; added a new page from Peter Gibb in South Africa. The five sections of FAQ's have also been zipped into a single file which you can download, put in a directory on your computer, then run the FAQ's locally with your browser. The page which lists TBH beekeepers still needs to be updated . I'll try to do that over the next 10 days. If you're keeping tbh's and want to be added please let me know, or if the information already there is in error, I'd be happy to change it. If you know of any classes to be taught which include TBH beekeeping, I'd be delighted to add those to the homepage section on classes. Best wishes for a good year 2000. Cordially yours, Jim Satterfield ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:06:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Computers AND Apidictor In-Reply-To: <200002060306.WAA16705@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > US $ per hive you would spend - This would depend on a number of factors, but I would think up to $3 per year per hive. > Number of hives you would monitor - 3,000 at maximum, 200 at minimum. The system would have to be fully wireless, rugged, unobtrusive, and provide full reports remotely as described in my posts. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:44:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Research Funding In-Reply-To: <200002042043.PAA01714@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ....entirely too much emphasis is placed on the practical value of research. > ...I only bring this up because it seems to be central to his and Dr. Rosin's > argument against the idea that bees communicate through dancing... Well, I personally don't get that understanding from what they are saying, or think they are implying any disrespect for pure science or pure research. Au contraire. I see them as simply observing that any pure discovery of any importance usually finds at least some minor applications and spawns more discoveries. This observation actually reinforces the importance of pure science. Their only stipulation is that pure science must also be good science, and this is where the differences of opinion start in reference to bee language. Adrian's criticism -- if I understand correctly -- is simply that, if the dance phenomenon exists and is correctly understood, and if the theory is sound, then -- given the immense significance it should have practically, philosophically, and politically -- much more should have been expected to have come of its discovery by now. This is not necessarily always the case, I do understand, but it is hard to think of pure discoveries that do not lead to something else over a few decades. The lack of offspring in this instance does tend to look a little suspicious. It seems that the bee language theory remains essentially barren. Such an apparently pivotal discovery -- if valid -- should well have been expected to bear a lot of fruit over almost a half century since its discovery, both in useful applications and in further discoveries in related and unrelated fields. Instead it seems to have some fundamental problems, and to be at a dead end. The obvious lack of further discoveries and useful applications arising from such a fundamental and amazing phenomenon tends to bring into question whether we actually are interpreting the phenomenon correctly and whether we are able to test and replicate it with the reliability -- either theoretically or in the lab -- that we can even with sub-atomic events and distant phenomena off-planet. Unfortunately the dance language theory is 'cute'. It has a lot of intrinsic appeal to humans. This appeal is entirely independent of the theory's ability to be proven conclusively or put to use, and attracts people to the theory in much the same way as a religion does. This alone should, and does, concern some scientists. Scientists, to be worthy of that name, must be ready to cheerfully change their cherished beliefs in the face of new evidence and suspend judgement where there is lack of sufficient evidence or reason for doubt no matter how attractive the theory. In science, Doubt is a virtue, and Faith is a vice. Adrian and his cohorts -- right or wrong -- do us all a service, often at a personal cost, by demanding and testing proof. As for pure science and funding, I share your concerns, but IMO that is an entirely separate matter. For anyone who thinks about these things, I recommend Mark Winston's book, "From Where I Sit", for some good perspectives on the question of the mutual responsibilities between researchers and the society in which they live, and many other current topics of interest to many of us who like bees. Oh, and BTW, Mark and his scientist friends at CAPA -- along with a hundred or more Canadian volunteers -- just raised over $400,000 CAD for bee research using their own entrepreneurial efforts putting on the best Apimondia Congress ever. Beekeepers worldwide will benefit. This money, when combined with funds generously donated by Canadian beekeepers will bring the CBRF about halfway to its $1,000,000 goal. The money will be leveraged with government and private foundation money to do a lot of research, both pure and applied. Some pictures of the presentation of the checks to the Canadian Bee Research Fund and other hyjinks at the joint SBA/CHC/CAPA meeting in Saskatoon this week are accessible from http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ by visiting the 'What's New' link (first item). Sorry, no captions yet, but lots of snapshots. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 15:17:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Weather, epipens & bee pests & predators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/4/00 1:00:23 PM, Pollinator@AOL.COM writes: << I do some writing for growers, and I'd like to pass along status reports, so please let me know what's going on. >> Another point that Dave might want to mention to those growers is that this remarkable weather will probably suppress the population of native pollinators, such as bumblebees and pollinator wasps, that also winter over in the soil. There are no good estimates — that I am aware of — of the value of native pollinators to cultivated crops. But the growers probably won't get much help or relief from unprotected pollinator populations, making the need for managed honey bees even more acute. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: rhennessey@norfolk-county.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ray hennessey Subject: Re: Still More Epipen In-Reply-To: <200002041219.HAA10978@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been listening to the discussion about allergic reactions with much interest. It seems that there are as many different reactions as there are individuals that get stung. In case any one is interested one of the best articles I have ever seen concerning allergies to venomous insects is chapter 27 of The Hive and the Honey Bee.(my edition is 1992) I think that the chart on page 1217- "normal and allergic reactions to insect stings" helps an individual decide where they are with their level of sensitivity. Ray Hennessey Wrentham,Ma. Bees Make The World A Sweeter Place ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 23:55:55 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Feeding bees at dawn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have always fed my bees at dusk because no bees are flying and thus the possibility of robbing is reduced to a minimum. Would it be equally valid to feed them at dawn?. Thanks for any feed back. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:14:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > I have always fed my bees at dusk because no bees are flying and thus the > possibility of robbing is reduced to a minimum. > > Would it be equally valid to feed them at dawn?. > Tom Barret Tom, The only thing would be that there is not as much time to clean spills that would attract robbers. I like to feed mine just after flying time when it's cold 'cause you need no gloves or veil, smoke and all they can do is sit and watch you. This also gives them enormous amounts of time to cleanup after my clumsiness. Thom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:09:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: observation hive in my house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > ... I would like to know the exact bee space inbetween the glass and the > first set of frames as to reduce the burr comb on the glass? Rev. L.L. Langstroth discovered that bee space is 3/8 inch regardless of where it is applied. Langstroth is credited with inventing the movable frame beehive, based on the bee space observation. His original intent was to figure out a way to keep bees from glueing down the tops of their hives, and he serendipitously discovered that bees reserve a 3/8 inch space for their own passage. From this observation he extrapolated that the same concept could be applied throughtout a hive designed with frames to hold the combs. This idea came to him in November, and he spent that entire winter in heightened anticipation of the opportunity to test his theory in the field! The following spring and summer, his idea proved to be workable and the rest is history. Actually, there's lots more to the history including copyright failures and infringements, bad poltitcs right from the very beginning of modern beekeeping, Langstroth's battles with depression and more. Makes for fascinating reading. Aaron Morris - thinking there's nothing like a good book in the off season! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Research Funding In-Reply-To: <200002070500.AAA17783@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings! Thank you Allen Dick, for your comments. I was beginning to think that the many hours of reading and writing that I have done on this subject were for nought; that I was the only one that even cared about this. I certainly welcome divergent points of view. I have found that the more I look into it, the more difference of opinion I find. If I have presented one side of the story, it's because that may be the point of view I have the most affinity with, but each must come to one's own conclusions. I obtained a copy of Wenner and Wells's book "Anatomy of a Controversy" (1990). At the same time I obtained "Animal Minds," by Griffin (1992). They write in the preface: "...we became embroiled in what has become one of this century's most important controversies in biology, a controversy that ostensibly revolves around the question of a "language" among honey bees. However, the topic of a honey bee "language" hardly qualifies as an important issue in science." Contrast Seeley: "...this investigation of the food-collection process in honey bee colonies provides a paradigm of the analytic work needed to disclose the mechanisms which integrate a group of organisms into a functional whole." On the question of anthropomorphism, Wenner and Wells write: "At the same time that many students of animal behavior were yielding to the spell of teleology and anthropomorphism, biochemistry was moving in the opposite direction." Contrast Griffin: "For many years any consideration of animal consciousness was strongly discouraged by the accusation that it was anthropomorphic. ... But the charge of anthropomorphism has been inflated to include even the most tentative inference of the simplest kind of conscious thoughts by animals." Best wishes to all. - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu phone: 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:06:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Research Funding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Adrian's criticism -- if I understand correctly -- is simply that, if the dance >phenomenon exists and is correctly understood, and if the theory is sound, >then -- given the immense significance it should have practically, >philosophically, and politically -- much more should have been expected to have >come of its discovery by now. This is not necessarily always the case, I do >understand, but it is hard to think of pure discoveries that do not lead to >something else over a few decades. The lack of offspring in this instance does >tend to look a little suspicious. The offspring in the "dance" area may come from the contract pollination area of beekeeping. Beekeepers (as well as their customers) may be making choices in how they handle hive placement based on their understanding of bee navigational abilities. An example of this was mentioned on the list a while ago. Farmers were placing empty trailers in large fields to help the bees return to their hives, assuming the bees would use these landmarks to navigate. If I remember the report it worked and fewer field bees were lost. If assumptions are made as to the bees having a accurate navigation system that is based on the "dance" then choices are most likely being made on this information. If the choices are right, then the "dance" is being used to help beekeepers. If the "dance" theory is incorrect then the result of the choices is left to chance. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:15:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Doubt is a virtue, and Faith is a vice In-Reply-To: <200002070500.AAA17783@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings, Scientific discoveries proceed in a least two different fashions. One is to collect much evidence and then try to make sense of it. Another is to take what very little evidence there is and to develop a theory to be proved, if possible. An example would be, the Greeks developed the theory of atoms by observing that a pan of water evaporates, not a once, but by tiny unmeasurable increments. It took thousands of years to prove the existence of molecules and the different states of matter. Hubble observed the slightest difference in the color spectrum of stars whose presumed distance from earth was different. He developed the theory of the red shift and the expanding universe, which is embraced by most, if not all, astronomers. How could that ever be proved? If the distances to the stars, which can't even be measured directly, is wrong, the whole theory is wrong. Einstein apparently developed his theories entirely in his imagination and would have to wait for others to develop the "proofs." Galileo was excommunicated for declaring the planets revolve around the sun, based on observations that couldn't really be "proved" until we had actually sent space craft to these planets. Now this is not to say that there haven't been an equal or greater number of theories that were nothing more than cherished pipe dreams. A list of those would be easy enough to compile But even scientists are allowed to dream ... PB - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:56:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Odor, not Odor Comments: cc: jbarthell@ucok.edu, ponerine@dakotacom.net, greenber@WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU, SOCINSCT@listserv.albany.edu, Dadant@dadant.com, KenFrazier@compuserve.com, cherubini@MINDSPRING.COM, berwick@ai.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Question #2 of Lars Hansen, who inquired (18 January): "Correct me, if I am wrong: It seems to me, that in experiments on recruiting using odor (Wenner, Lindauer, Seeley ...), the concentration of the smelling ingredient is very different? It would be interesting to hear comments on the concentrations. Do some experiments disfavor the role of odor by keeping the concentration low or others favor it by keeping them high. Is there such a thing as a realistic level of odor compared to natural conditions?" ******* Response (gladly provided): In 1937 von Frisch observed: "[In my experiments] I succeeded with all kinds of flowers with the exception of flowers without any scent." My co-workers and I reached the same conclusion by means of a rather exhaustive series of experiments, published (in part) as a fully refereed article: 1971 Wells, P.H. and A.M. Wenner. The influence of food scent on behavior of foraging honey bees. PHYSIOLOGICAL ZOOLOGY. 44:191-209. Our 1990 book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY... also covers this topic quite fully in Chapter 5 and in Excursus OS. However, one will not likely find a summary of the results of those experiments in books and review chapters written by language advocates (the results do not fit that favored hypothesis). A few highlights follow: 1) As experienced beekeepers know, bees are extremely sensitive to odor, even if very faint. For instance, an empty cavity that housed a colony years earlier might well again become occupied. That is why pest control operators must clean out and thoroughly seal such cavities after removing the colonies. 2) By a fortunate circumstance, pure sugar solution (i.e., sucrose or table sugar) has no odor, with its vapor pressure of zero. However, one must take extreme care in preparation of experimental sugar solution, because any contaminant (in the solution or nearby) can provide an odor cue for searching bees. One must also take extreme care to not inadvertently furnish any marking odor at experimental feeding stations in the field. James Nieh, formerly at Cornell, recently wrote (January issue of the AMERICAN SCIENTIST): "...foragers can successfully recruit (although with greater difficulty) to a pure sucrose solution, which lacks an odor..." However, I side with von Frisch on that issue and feel that Nieh perhaps could not control against locality odors in his area, as we can do here where we have no rain for months on end. 4) Lars Hansen is quite correct; we do not know which odors can be perceived by bees except through experiment. In our 1971 paper we reported that recruitment increased as one added more odor --- but only to a limit (20 droplets of clove oil per liter). A greater concentration led to a severe drop in recruitment. 5) The results shown in our 1971 paper are quite clear-cut: a) Reduce odor at the feeding station to zero, and Nasanov gland exposure by foragers at the dish increases drastically. b) Reduce odor at the station to zero, and dances by foragers in the hive increase dramatically. c) Reduce odor at the station to zero, and searching bees do not find the site visited by the foragers. Please note an important point here. With no odor and with frequent exposure of the Nasanov gland at the dish, searching bees STILL fail to find the site. That finding contrasts with another statement made by Nieh in the AMERICAN SCIENTIST: "In addition, a forager can mark good food sources with a pheromone produced in her Nasanov gland." *********** Now to Lars Hansen's specific question: "Do some experiments disfavor the role of odor by keeping the concentration low or others favor it by keeping them high?" My answer: Certainly! However, an experimenter can UNWITTINGLY or SUBCONSCIOUSLY provide a discrepancy in odor marking at various feeding stations. Such an event, of course, would be more likely for one who "wants" results that meet with favor by the scientific establishment. That is why the multiple inference approach (where one does not care what experimental results emerge) is so much more powerful than experiments which attempt to "prove" that a bias is correct. We covered such experiments in Chapter 10 of our book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY. Language proponents, though, continue to ignore the results of those experiments. ********** A lesson here: One must consider ALL available evidence, not just evidence that agrees with prevailing opinion. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "History teaches that having the whole world against you * doesn't necessarily mean you will lose." * * Ashleigh Brilliant's Pot-Shot # 7521, used by permission * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Haley, Patrick A." Subject: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm a new Ohio beekeeper as of last spring. I have 3 hives, Italian pkgs from York. 2 deeps on each. This is my first winter and I made a beginner mistake. Mouse guard entrance reducers on all 3 in Sept but noticed wasps coming and going from one hive regularly in Oct. Hive was horribly light in Nov. Finally checked and hive had been robbed of most honey and most bees dead. Queen okay and small cluster left. Closed off bottom entrance and left only top entrance (1/2 moon through edge of inner cover) open since cluster was located in top super. Later, front of hive covered w/brown streaks like nosema. Question: What should I do? There don't seem to be enough bees left to make it? I want to open the hive and put a boardman feeder in with Fumidil. Should I remove the bottom super at that time, close off the upper entrance and maybe put some type of robber screen on? Will the hive be able to regain enough strength to protect a reduced front entrance again? Help! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: My FREE on-line Beekeeping Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From sci.agriculture.beekeeping: ------ Please Visit my site if you are new to beekeeping or just need information for school projects. My Novice Beekeeping Course is 22 pages, 120 photos and lots of information to use as reference. Awesome close-up photography of my bees, larva, etc.. The beekeeping course address is http://www.beemaster.com/honeybee/beehome.htm But feel free to visit my COMPLETE site with over 120 pages, 550 photos and 35 educational topics for the whole family at http://www.beemaster.com Please let me know you found me here in NEWS GROUPS and let me know if you found my site helpful. John the Beemaster ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:00:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Feeding bees at dawn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, Feeding at dawn is an open invitation to the next 12 hours of trouble from ALL types of robbers, mostly your big strong hive in the same row as the weak hive that you are feeding. Feed at dusk only. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:28:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky or Al S Boehm Subject: activity from the south Someone asked about 2 weeks ago about briefing from the south on the activity of the bees. I opoened my hives today and out of 14 one was empty of bees but full of honey. One down. Four just boiled over when the inner cover came off the bees were also flying heavily (65 to 68 degrees ) with a light red pollen on some of them. Many were at the dogs dish getting water. It looks like a early spring after a mostly light winter. cold just this last month. I guess next weekend the first supers will go on to relieve congestion. I normally split the first couple weeks of april but looks like it wont wait this year. Good luck in the northland. will post when things get really going. Al Boehm Columbus N C (state line N C and S C) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim & Sue Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick, I think its best to shake them out, clean out the hive and reinstall a new package or split in the spring. Thats the easiest and best approach given your description of its current condition. Jim Maus West Bend WI ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:34:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Wilkins Subject: Re: Research Funding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is an interesting developement in technology (at least to me) that I wonder if any of you are familiar with or have opinions on. http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/02/02042000/bee_9704.asp JW __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:55:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Research Funding In-Reply-To: <200002080105.UAA29233@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A question was asked about the article in Nature and reports of using harmonic radar to track bees. Joe Riley in England pioneered this system, and Elizabeth went to England to use his setup. Others in CA got recent coverage by National Geographic concerning a hand held unit and tracking of butterflies (Riley uses a trailer based set of transmitters, etc. The principal is simple. The hand held units were developed to find skiers buried under snow. The "target" (bee, skier, etc.) wears a diode. The transmitter signal triggers or activates the diode. The diode bounces back the signal (it doubles the frequency of the source signal). A receiver picks up the signal and translates it to a visual (radar type screen) or audible (ping) signal. We tried the hand held systems and got 400 yds range - but the sticking point is the length of the antennae (seen in the picture under the URL listed below). No bee could ever return to a hive wearing that, and I'm skeptical about how realistic any flights are wearing that much hardware. We decided that the bees could fly, but remained unconvinced about the relevance of the data. Also, this system does not I.D. individual bees. You get a ping from the diode. Diodes in your cell phone, computer, radio, etc. will also produce a ping. Having said all of that, congrats to Joe and Elizabeth for the first steps along this path. We may find that the bee does ignore the load. In the meantime, we keep searching for the technology that makes the breakthrough - range, individual bee I.D., unrestricted movement (in or outside the hive). No small task, and lots of hard work has been done by Joe and the gang. Someone had to start the ball, and these articles will get the idea out on the land. Cheers Jerry >http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/02/02042000/bee_9704.asp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:23:41 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Heating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know the list has often discussed the proper temperature to which honey should be heated - if at all. I have adopted 105 degrees fahrenheit for my uses. I have modified an old freezer (in a way I think I hear of here on the list) to hold this temperature for my newly bottled honey. One aspect of heating honey that I don't recall having discussed is the effect of the length of time held at an elevated temperature. With my freezer-warmer, it is ease to hold the temperature constant for as long as I want. With the old pot of water on the stove, one can raise the temperature in an uncontrolled way but only for a short period of time. Assuming that my 105 degrees is a good number, are there any adverse effects to holding it there for a lengthy time? I find the honey that I bottle is clarified nicely in two or three days and it is nice not to have it crystallize while sitting on the shelf. The flavor appears not to be diminished, but I especially wonder about the enzymes that make honey desirable. Your thoughts are appreciated. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:40:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Robbed Out! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Haley wrote: >I'm a new Ohio beekeeper as of last spring. >Nov. Finally checked and hive had been robbed of most honey and most bees >dead. Queen okay and small cluster left. Closed off bottom entrance and left >only top entrance (1/2 moon through edge of inner cover) open since cluster It is too cold in Ohio in February to feed syrup. Try putting a frame of honey with the cappings opened beside the cluster or granulated sugar on top of the inner cover and hope for the best. Sometimes a cluster this time of year looks smaller than it is. In March you can feed syrup but will need to use a top feeder right above the cluster. Good Luck Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 22:46:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: christopher.slade@ZBEE.COM Organization: ZbeeNet computer networking for beekeepers Subject: Weather, epipens & bee pests & predators CHRS: IBMPC 2 CODEPAGE: 850 MSGID: 240:244/186 85940351 REPLY: 240:44/0 13cbd151 PID: FDAPX/w 1.13 UnReg(81) I notice from this mail that wasps and yellow jackets are not alternative names for the same insect. For the benefit of those of us who don't have them can somebody post the latin names please? Thanks, Chris Slade --- * Origin: Beenet Point (240:244/186)