From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:46 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06266 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01952 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01952@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:39 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0002C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 189481 Lines: 3968 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 18:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "WM. ARNOLD JONES" Subject: screen bottom boards?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am interested in comments on why the bees smelling the exposed honey = with the screens do not rob at increased rates? =20 arnold jones ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 20:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Bottom screens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd, I have another question. What about ants or other small invasive bugs? Do you need to take some precautions. I'm very interested in the prospect of reducing the treatments of Varroa. Aaron has a good point that should be noted by people starting out. The bottom screen alone will not be the cure. There isn't any one thing yet that can totally remove mites from the hive. But the screen used with other approved treatments mite :-) help in reducing infestation and pesticide. Thanks for the information. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards. (Floors) In-Reply-To: <200002141753.MAA11972@listserv.albany.edu> On 14 Feb 00, at 11:18, Peter R Watt wrote: > I have used screened floors here in Scotland for the last ten years. Never > has there been any attempt to propolise the opening. However the converse > is definitely a different story. Any screening above the bees is sealed > off as fast as they can manage. I once bought a hive that had a travelling > screen on it as a crown-board or inner cover, which was virtually > completely sealed with propolis. The message from my bees is quite clear. > They don't want drafts above, but are quite happy to have them below. As > the idea of screened floors spreads I would like to hear of colonies > sealing off the floor. I suspect I might have a long wait! Wishing all a > good season, Pete. I have to disagree with part of this post. We have been working with a ventilated hive top for 11 years and find a different point altogether. Agreed the bees will propolise any upper screening, but only in late summer, usually when there are full supers above. My reasoning tells me it's to keep out intruders and protect that resource, for the rest of the year our bees leave the screens alone. Perhaps we've educated our bees over the years, as we always unplug them in time for winter. ***************************************** The Bee Works, 5 Edith Drive, R R # 2. Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H2. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:11:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards. (Floors) In-Reply-To: <200002141754.MAA12002@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As the idea of screened floors spreads I would like to hear of colonies > sealing off the floor. I suspect I might have a long wait! While I have not tried screen bottoms, I have had hives propolise the entire slit between the lower hive and the floor closed. By that I mean the opening we had intended as an entrance. This happened in the fall with a number of hives when we wintered with open entrances. The vast majority of hives did not do this, however. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 17:30:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002141224.HAA29198@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I agree that a bottomboard under the screen would allow the fallen mites the > chance to come back through the screen and re-attach to thier host, unless > they are somehow trapped with a sticky board or other means. Does your > screen attach to a frame which acts as the bottom board or does the screen > attach directly to the bottom of the hive body with a spacer allowing > entrance on one side? > Please advise When mites are not attached to a host the distance they will travel is limited. At EAS it was stated that the longest distance a Varroa would travel was about 3/4 of an inch. If it does not find a host it stops and waits, many times until it drys up and dies. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:25:56 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Dancing Bees paper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Members of this list who are interested in the bee dance language controversy might like to look at this new online paper in "natural SCIENCE": http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html Julian O'Dea Canberra, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 00:32:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, Did Ed share with you his experiences with Varroa mites? What is he using to manage them? << To his surprise, in the spring the losses were entirely normal. Since, for some 40 years, Ed has used nothing but screens and he has left them on all year. >> Bee Healthy, Jean-Francois Lariviere President, BeeHealthy Farms 242 W. 104th St. Suite 1EF NY NY 10025 212-662-4244 (tel & fax) http://www.BeeHealthyFarms.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:03:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Right now it appears that screened bottom boards are at the same stage that mineral oil was at when everyone was excited about that. Has anyone done work with screened and control hives in the manner of scientific research? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Bartlett wrote: > How are the screened bottom boards going to effect the ability of the bees > to maintain the brood area temperature of 92 -93 degrees F? Easy answer is - it depends. It appears that if you are south of a New Hampshire climate, no problem since that has been demonstrated. It will also depend on winter stores- how much and how good. My guess is that here in Maine, which can get cooler than Southern NH, there should be little problem. I have found that if I have good ventilation in the hive over the winter, the colony is much better off since it is not heat that is a problem but moisture. When the primary advice you get is to increase ventilation in the winter by propping up the outer cover and that advice is absent in the summer, screened bottom boards should have little effect. They may even be better. This is only a guess, but the heat transfer should be about the same. The top opening will determine the transfer rate, since the bottom opening will allow a flow rate that will balance the upper exit flow. So with a smaller bottom opening, you just have a faster flow. A faster flow will give more cooling in a smaller area which could result in spot chilling of the bees. The open bottom will have much slower air flow and could actually be beneficial by reducing the " wind chill factor" inside the hive. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:28:38 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Mesh floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arnold asked about robbing with mesh floors. No robbing takes place because you keep very, very small entrances, as little as one bee-space if needed. You won't get any overheating simply because the whole floor provides an air inlet. When I first started using these floors, about 1990, I had the same fears as Arnold - would the wasps hang in clusters below the mesh floors fighting to get in. Well they don't, hardly see a wasp, or other bee, underneath them. Maybe they try when I am not looking but quickly appreciate there is no-way they can chew through that steel wire. But the importance of mesh nothing larger than 8 wires to the inch cannot be over emphasised, a larger mesh easily allows access to any invader. My normal entrances using mesh floors are about 4" wide and 3/8" high. When we have had associations visits to my apiaries some had said, "I want a big entrance to allow my bees easy exit/access". I have always replied they should witness one of my swarms (which I never (!!!!!) experience) emerging. Even using a very small entrance they still pour out like water, hundreds and thousands at a time. One word of warning, be careful with the bucket feeders, make sure they have formed a vacuum before placing onto the crown (cover) board, otherwise you will see a couple of cupfuls flowing through the mesh. Ken Hoare ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:46:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Screened bottom boards- short distances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 14/02/00 5:24:45 AM Mountain Standard Time, studebee@ADAMSWELLS.COM writes: << I agree that a bottomboard under the screen would allow the fallen mites the chance to come back through the screen and re-attach to thier host, unless they are somehow trapped with a sticky board or other means. Does your screen attach to a frame which acts as the bottom board or does the screen attach directly to the bottom of the hive body with a spacer allowing entrance on one side? >> It should be noted that research by Dr. Jeff Pettis at the USDA has demonstrated that if Varroa mites are seperated by a small distance from the bees (I can't remember how much- maybe 1.5 inches- does anyone on the list know?), they remain motionless and do not find their way back onto the bees. You do not need the mites to fall a foot- they only need to fall a few inches and bee excluded from bee traffic. No stickyboards are required- that is the point. I cannot comment if the inserts made by these manufacturers meet the minimum distance determined by Dr. Pettis- you may want to ask the manufacturers if they took his work into account when designing the inserts- Dr. Pettis's work on screened inserts appear in an ABJ issue last year. Regards Adony ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:50:20 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: re Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote - "When mites are not attached to a host the distance they will travel is limited. At EAS it was stated that the longest distance a Varroa would travel was about 3/4 of an inch. If it does not find a host it stops and waits, many times until it drys up and dies." Not in my experience, have seen them rushing from one side of a frame to another, and always been amazed at the speed they can travel. What I think might have been suggested is the depth below the frame where they cannot or will not climb back up, but I thought that was more than 3/4 of an inch. Ken Hoare ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 08:43:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Dancing Bees paper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At last one statement of the crux of the debate.. >>"Thus, although the dance of the honeybee contains locational information about >>food sources, it is not necessary to assume that bee dances convey this information >>to other bees. " Quite a few experiments have tagged the attendants from the dance and watched them arrive at the food. Why would this not demonstrate communication? What about the mechanical bee .. it was able to recruit ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: re Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Not in my experience, have seen them rushing from one side of a frame to >another, and always been amazed at the speed they can travel. What I think >might have been suggested is the depth below the frame where they cannot or >will not climb back up, but I thought that was more than 3/4 of an inch. The way it was explained was that once the mites start looking for a host (questing) they will only move about 3/4 of an inch. Perhaps these mites are not looking for a host, but searching for a suitable brood cell, or just running from the disturbance. Even so the distance a mite would have to travel to get back to a bee after going through a screen insert would be the distance across the bottom board plus the distance up the side. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:17:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Ventilation and Apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, in Florida, said "I was thinking of building a ventilated cover for the hives to help dry the nectar." Why not just use shingles and your normal inner cover. Buy a bundle of wood shingles (they may be called "shakes") at your local lumber yard. They are likely to cost $10 for 25 or more. Split them lengthwise to about 1" wide. Tack two, with the thick edge toward the outside, to the same side of your inner cover. Put on the hive with the wedges down. You now have a 1/2" ventilation slot. I keep these on all year, and they are great! Bob also asked "Additionally, would we use Apistan strips any differently with the use screened bottom boards?" Screens as bottom boards seem to delay the build up of Varroa. Check counts, using sticky boards, ether rolls, etc. The goal is to only treat once a year, instead of twice (or more). For more information check with your county extension office, as you have one of the best state organizations in the country! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:17:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Screens as hive bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter asks "Has anyone done work with screened and control hives in the manner of scientific research?" Researchers at two universities in the US have studied the use of screens to control Varroa populations. One was at the University of Florida and the other was at Cornell University. Papers on both were reported in American Bee Journal. As Aaron Morris pointed out, both arrived at the same conclusions: * Compared to controls, mid-summer mite populations were reduced by approximately 30%. * By fall, there was no difference in mite population between hives with screens as bottoms and control hives. Thus, screens only serve to delay mite build up. Nonetheless, that delay may be helpful as part of an IPM approach with a goal of minimizing (not eliminating) chemical treatment. As far as I know, there have not been any controlled studies that focused on effects on brood production, moisture content in honey, etc. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 10:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: re Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ken Hoare wrote: > (I) have seen them rushing from one side of a frame to another, and always > been amazed at the speed they can travel. I often wondered about this when I hear the assertion of how far varroa mites will travel. I remember an article that Allen posted from a newsletter he receives, where the author described varroa mites crawling all over his arms. As I recall, the author was experimenting to determine how long mites would survive without a host. I SPECULATE a factor is the location of the mite in question. Mites on a frame are already in the vicinity of an ideal environment (in a beehive surrounded by potential hosts) whereas mites in other locations can be considered away from potential hosts. Mites and ticks are not hunters per se, they are opportunists. They do not seek out their prey, they lie in wait for a host to happen by, in which case they pounce. This is the concept behind mesh boards; having the mites fall far enough from a comfortable environment that they lie in wait rather than crawl to reattach. 3/4 inch seems not too far for a mite to travel to grab a host, but that is an anthropomorphic view ("seems"). From a mite's point of view the question becomes what is the distance from a comfortable environment that triggers the lie in wait mode, or, how close to the idea environment must a mite be to trigger a walking response? I do not know this answer, nor do I know what current research says. Aaron Morris - thinking there's lots I don't know! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 07:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Re: Screened Bottom Boards. (Floors) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The queens that were in the hives that shut up the hive entrance, were they of a different breed than the hives that behaved normally? Someone told me that a certain type of bee does that, though I have forgotten which. Carmenie > > While I have not tried screen bottoms, I have had > hives propolise the entire > slit between the lower hive and the floor closed. > By that I mean the opening we > had intended as an entrance. This happened in the > fall with a number of hives > when we wintered with open entrances. The vast > majority of hives did not do > this, however. > > allen > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:58:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: apiductor viability Comments: To: "Dr. Loper" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Russell wrote: > >>>>quick look-see just because it's the thing to do. And since you're going, > it > doesn't take much more effort to bring along aload of supers. > I could see some hobbyist and research interest bit not much action from the > commercial side. > Bill Russell > Eustis, Fl. I have never been a commercial beekeeper, and have great respect for those with enough courage to choose this as their occupation. That said, beekeepers in this area - there are still a few, in spite of the drought - have to cover a large area and many beeyards. One we cooperate with frequently (headquartered in Sierra Vista, SE of Tucson) has probably 30-50 yards, over an 80 by 60 mile area, many in remote areas with difficult roads. He can't afford instrumentation of these yards, but I'm sure you can see the advantage to him if he could dial up a remote sensor which would talk back to him before he hits the road in the morning. The cell phone coverage here is almost complete, so this approach is feasible. Of course, other areas may not need to invest in a system like this, especially where the access is quicker and easier. John F. Edwards Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://198.22.133.109/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 09:32:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002141359.IAA01182@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When someone invented the smoker it must have been looked upon as an advance > in beekeeping. But now Liquid Smoke has been invented which I am informed is > better still. Such is the case with Solid Floors and Open Mesh Floors. Interesting. I stopped at the Liquid Smoke booth at Apimondia and watched the video running there. Now, it's no secret that I am not a Liquid Smoke advocate. While it *may* have some uses, and may -- perhaps -- be better than just a plain fine water spray, I was repelled by the blarney from its promoters, especially their bald misrepresentation that that there could never be any residue in the honey... I wonder if anyone will figure out how to apply liquid smoke BEFORE opening the hive, and this is the best way to use smoke on cranky bees -- before they are alerted by the cracking of the hive lid seal. Nonetheless, I was fascinated by the videos of their hives that ran at their booth. The beekeepers shown on the film were obviously not equipment snobs. So many of the videos are put out by bee equipment suppliers and portray outfits with nothing but brand new boxes and floors. Not so here. The hive boxes looked as if the hadn't seen paint for 25 years or more, and there was ample air conditioning at the joints, BUT what I found most interesting was the fact that hives were on what appeared to be grocery pallets and there were *no floors* apparent. The boxes were just sitting on pallets and it appeared to me that the bees flew where they liked through the slits in the pallets, and there somehow seemed to be a slit under the brood chambers at the front as well. One might think that I would view this with disapproval, but I didn't. I paint my hives only to suit myself and my neighbours, and to impress my pollination customers. The bees don't care. As for the condition of the boxes: new and perfect ones make handling easier, but the bees don't care. I'm sure the bees don't miss the bottom board either and I admire the beekeeper who decided to go without. I had been considering the same idea for summer splits, and had not gotten around to trying it. This example was ahead of its time, in carrying the open bottom concept to an extreme; there are big gaps between the boards in most pallets. Many natural hives I have seen are under the floor joists of granaries, etc and are wide open on the bottom. They seem to do just fine. They even winter not too badly most of the time. Screen is useful to exclude mice and robbers, and to contain the bees for the sake of the beekeeper, but frankly, in warm conditions with strong hives, at least, it is not necessary. If we remember that one way to stop robbing from within a yard of bees is to remove all the lids, maybe removing all the bottoms has the same effect. Robbing from outside the yard might be a different matter, though. For those of us who move bees, the idea of having the bottom wide open with bees coming out would, perhaps, be undesirable, both from a personal comfort point of view, and because the forks lift from under the hive and would disturb and crush bees unless they were smoked up before handling. (How would one accomplish this with liquid smoke, I wonder)? All this talk of screened bottoms interests me quite a bit, but I am doubtful whether nucs or weak hives would do well with no bottom in spring around here. We've debated whether the bees heat their whole hive or not, and the answer is 'no'. However, there are times when the combined heat of the bees and the ambient conditions combine to allow the hive to become warmer than the environment and thus allow the bees to break cluster and reach feed distant from the cluster. In a strongly ventilated hive this cannot occur as readily, thus there may be a handicap under these conditions. There are times when we find we must reduce hive volume to suit the bee cluster or they will not do well. With an open bottom, I should think this would not work unless it were closed off. The question of effect on brood area and build-up is still open too. Less varroa is one thing. Prospering bees is another. We want both. Can screened -- or open bottoms -- provide both? All in all, we have some interesting questions under scrutiny these days. Thanks to all for their contributions. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:27:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: re Varroa mites Comments: cc: benwagg@concentric.net, bwaggoner@autoprodinc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 02/15/2000 11:08:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Mites on a frame are already in the vicinity of an ideal environment (in a beehive surrounded by potential hosts) whereas mites in other locations can be considered away from potential hosts. Mites and ticks are not hunters per se, they are opportunists. They do not seek out their prey, they lie in wait for a host to happen by, in which case they pounce. >> Hello Arron and Friends, The distance a mite is willing to travel is a very intriguing subject. I understand the mites can live for days away from a host. Perhaps they do just lie in wait and then grab a ride of opportunity. When (or if) they will travel 'great' distances is still a matter of conjecture, it appears. When I get my screens on the hives, I will gather a few live mites and put them in a 'crawling contest.' I am going to put them in the middle of a 3 or 4 foot square of paper in a draft free room, and check the progress till they wilt in their tracks! Even if they only move 3/4", I will have the satisfaction of seeing them wilt. Either way, I win! I would assume they might move farther if they are away from the combs. I have seen turtles strolling around great distances from lakes. They seem to be motivated to move around at mating season. I know they don't belong in the middle of the road, but I have seen a lot of them there. Perhaps there are stimuli which would cause the mites to move farther than we have observed, to date. I think they would move a fair distance if they were hungry, but I don't know if the little buggars are inspired to move by hunger. Just what situations do inspire the mite to travel around on all eights? One thing for sure is, they have been very effective in moving all over the world! If they only travel 3/4" in a single hike, it would seem that they wouldn't have spread so rapidly. I recently bought some drone foundation with the intent of trapping the adult Varroa in the drone brood, in a manner which has been discussed on this list. If the mites only move very short distances in a hive, how would the mites get into the drone frame cells from all of the other areas of the hive? I found 5 mites in one drone cell this week! Does the drone comb cause the mites to bail off the bees that crawl on it? Bob Bassett - Just thought I'd ask ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 12:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rod Billett Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In Allen's last 4 paragraphs he poses a question relating to Open or Closed bottoms in relation to Environment conditions or hive strength. << We want both. Can screened -- or open bottoms -- provide both? >> I have been folloing the screened bottom board thread for quite some time - Including the less active thread last year. Nonetheless, the conversation always turns to the times when a screened bottom would be detrimental to a hive (Exceedingly cold conditions, or a weak hive). Why cant a hive bottom be constructed to provide both. If the design of most screen bottoms was changed to provide for a grove within which a 1/4 thick piece of wood or other material could be slid under the screen, then adding or removing a 'solid' bottom would be very simple. The grove would be away from the bee's eliminating the chance of propolis buildup or having them glue it in place. They could be left open most of the time, but in the instances when the screen would be detrimental to the viability of the hive, a bottom could be slid in place in less than 30 seconds. Now, thats a lot easier than tearing the whole hive (or yard full of hives) down to the bottom board Granted, For the comercial folks with lots of hives this may cost more than a simple screened bottom but looking at all the cost factors included, it may be cheaper. If varoa treatments could be cut in 1/2 ( 1 treatment per year instead of 2) . And the reduced labor costs when the situation calls for quickly closing up the screened bottom. I am planning on making a couple of these bottom boards for my hives and trying them out this year. Being a hobbiest, whose pampered bees are in my backyard, its no great risk or gamble - just another excuse to 'go see the ladies'. For those of you with 100's of hives - Is something like this viable? Rod Billett Lexington, SC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 13:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: re Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Bob and Friends, Nice friendly greeting, I like that! Anyway, you wrote: > The distance a mite is willing to travel is a very intriguing subject. Yes, I've heard a number of different accounts, many from sources I would not doubt. That is why I speculate that there must be something else in play. > I will gather a few live mites and put them in a 'crawling contest.' I look forward to the results. I'll place my money on "Critter Gitter" in the fourth! > I think they would move a fair distance if they were hungry, but I don't > know if the little buggars are inspired to move by hunger. I don't know either. With respect to tracheal mites, films show they wait to pounce even to the death! I am not positive if death was due to starvation or desiccation. And I am not sure if similar studies have been done regarding varroa. > One thing for sure is, they have been very effective in moving all over the > world! Undeniably, but not without help! One scenario that had escaped me but seems quite plausible was put forth at the Federation of Irish Beekeepers Association meeting last summer by Madeleine Pym's father (apologies to Mr. Pym, I do not recall his first name - and Hi Madeleine, regards to your dad!). Mr. Pym speculated that possibly varroa hops from place to place, island to island, not on their own but with the help of others. Picture if you will, a varroa mite on a bee, carried from an infested hive to a blossom on a plant in a nursery. The mite falls off the foraging bee, lands on the blossom and goes into the "lie in wait" mode. The nursery specimen is loaded onto a ship and exported to a nearby island, which heretofore had never been home to varroa mites. The plant and its stowaway mite are quickly offloaded, an avid gardener purchases the plant, takes it home and makes it a nice addition to the cottage garden. Imagine this all happens within the life span of the mite and blossoming time of the plant. Another foraging bee flies by, lands on the flower where the sinister mite lies in wait, hops onto the bee and is brought back to a hive that had never been prey to varroa! In such a scenario, the mite traveled less than a few centimeters on "all eight", but covered many kilometers with a little help from its friends. Now, does it happen this way? I cannot say, but I do not doubt the possibility. I had always assumed varroa spread with migratory beekeepers. Until Mr. Pym put forth this proposition I had never considered the possibility that varroa may have spread even when beehives were not involved! The African small hive beetle is presumed to have arrived in the US in a shipment of fruit! > If the mites only move very short distances in a hive, how would the mites > get into the drone frame cells from all of the other areas of the hive? I speculate that mites move more actively within a hive where hosts abound as compared to environs where hosts are scarce. As far as movement in the hive, a speaker at Apimondia suggested that not only do the mites move around in a hive, but the raised surface of a drone cell attracts mites in a manner that is not yet understood. Possibly the higher cells attract the mites, in which case a solid frame of drone may not be as attractive as one might hope. Other thoughts (and I think this is more likely) is that the drone brood smells differently and is more attractive to the mites. And again, don't overlook the other vectors that move varroa mites around. The mites could be hopping off nurse bees as they are feeding the drone brood. Aaron Morris - thinking know the enemy, think like a mite! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 15:53:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: The weather this year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A new report from the U.S. Geological Survey is predicting La Nina will bring a wet spring and summer to the U.S. Northwest and to the East Coast region around the Appalachian mountains. The likelihood of flooding is increased in these areas, says Michael Dettinger, a USGS hydrologist who is one of the report’s authors. The report also predicts drought for the Southwest, which has already experienced a dry winter, Dettinger added. The report was produced by the USGS, the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, CA, and the Western Regional Climate Center in Reno, NV. The results are based on statistical surveys of streamflows, a much more reliable indicator of water availability than other variables, like amount of rainfall or temperatures, Dettinger said. The USGS operates more than 7,000 streamflow gages across the U.S. Streamflows respond to climatic variations for a longer period of time, Dettinger said, which allows for flow predictions that are useful several months longer than can be expected when simply predicting precipitation. He said the report is aimed at assisting emergency managers and water-use managers, who want to extend the lead time for important allocation decisions, especially in the West. Don’t start sandbagging the hives yet. Dettinger said the same prediction was made for last year, which was also a La Nina year. The predictions held up in the West but the Northeast was stuck with a drought. “That was the only time on record out of 12 times when the pattern didn’t hold. It was extremely unusual.” To see the full press release, go to www.usgs.gov and look in the press releases section. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:24:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: The weather this year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <> A subsequent report from the USGS for the Maryland-Delaware-D.C region shows streamflow into the Chesapeake Bay at 49% of normal for the month of January, a pattern that more resembles that which led to last year's East Coast drought situation. Cheers, John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:10:54 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: Dancing Bees paper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dave Hamilton referred to my online paper at: http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html and asked: " Quite a few experiments have tagged the attendants from the dance and watched them arrive at the food. Why would this not demonstrate communication? What about the mechanical bee .. it was able to recruit " Julian O'Dea: The tagging experiments could be explained by odour communication. The mechanical bee experiments have been criticised statistically in the following paper: Wenner, A.M., D.E. Meade and L.J. Friesen. 1991. Recruitment, search behavior, and flight ranges of honey bees. Am. Zool. 31:768-782. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:04:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: Liquid Smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen wrote, "Now, it's no secret that I am not a Liquid Smoke advocate." >From the other side of the pond I didn't know that Allen. I tend to agree with you that maybe the smoker will remain the only tool to use when working bees, but nevertheless will test Liquid Smoke myself. It would be interesting to know whether others that have used this substance feel the same as you. If it is no good it will finish up in Thornes Winter Sale, alongside the Nasenhiemer formic acid evaporator, and many other useless pieces of beekeeping equipment - but you will never see an Open Mesh Floor in that sale. Ken Hoare Shropshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:23:26 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards- short distances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff Pettis has said 3/4 inch ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:25:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Dancing Bees paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave Hamilton wrote (in part): >Quite a few experiments have tagged the attendants from the dance and >watched them arrive at the food. Why would this not demonstrate >communication? Yes, those experiments have been done. However, after leaving the hive, the searching bees spend a great deal of time searching --- 30-40 times longer than that required by foragers on their bee line. In one study published by Kirchner, searching bees required an average of almost 2 hours to reach the goal. And, yes, we CAN call that communication --- but most likely by odor, not tactile in the pitch black interior of the brood nest. >What about the mechanical bee .. it was able to recruit I covered that topic thoroughly in my posting of January 28th. I am sending another copy of that communication directly to Dave. Again, the robot bee worked (and very poorly at that), even when they paired the bee motion with odor. So why not credit odor as the responsible agent? We in science call upon a law called "Occam's Razor" in such a case; use the simplest explanation that can accommodate the evidence. Odor is by far more simple than a human-type language. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept that fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally * accepted." * * Claude Bernard --- 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 16:48:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Dancing Bees paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julian O'Dea responded (in part) to a question by Dave Hamilton: " The mechanical bee experiments >have been criticised statistically in the following >paper: > >Wenner, A.M., D.E. Meade and L.J. Friesen. 1991. Recruitment, >search behavior, and flight ranges of honey bees. Am. Zool. >31:768-782. ******** Once again, I will gladly mail a copy of that paper to anyone who furnishes me a mailing address. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept that fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally * accepted." * * Claude Bernard --- 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Dancing Bees paper In-Reply-To: <200002160053.TAA18940@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Again, the robot bee worked (and very poorly at that), even when they > paired the bee motion with odor. So why not credit odor as the responsible > agent? We in science call upon a law called "Occam's Razor" in such a > case; use the simplest explanation that can accommodate the evidence. Odor > is by far more simple than a human-type language. > "human-type" maybe but that is not the claim of the dance "language". The dialect would be tiny, less than 10 symbols. Language is such a poor choice of words. If it exists it is a programmed response, it would be programmed in a finite language called DNA. Selection for a "dance" gene could start with a mutation where bees returning full "giggle" and attract other bees. Exchange of the scent brought in with these workers would assist them in locating a food source. In additon to that data, selections for movement response that varied with direction and distance could further give advantage to that attribute. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:14:56 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, Dr. Jeff Prentis of Beltsville Bee Lab has been working on this for some time and Brushy Mountain Bee Supply has copied his design for sale. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:30:18 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Reply: Robust varroa management? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello B-Line members: Allen said: > At the SBA meeting I recall seeing a presentation showing that long duration >formic treatments do suppress brood rearing when applied in the spring, whereas >the short duration treatments do not. In the long term treatment which was mentioned at the SBA the studied treatment was different from my treatment because of the following reasons: 1. The tested pad was made from absorbing material used in boots. This material is soft and releases the formic acid at higher rates. 2. The pad was placed directly on the top bars of the combs. When you apply the pad on this position, the formic acid will continuously evaporate at day time and night at higher rates becasue of the cluster temperature. It is like placing a pan containing water on the top of your stove at 33C (clustet temperature). 3. The formic acid vapor will go in between the frames and drive the bees and queens away from the combs. Thus, the egg laying and brood production will be affected. > Allen said: > At the same meeting, Medhat described the long term formic method > he has adapted to Ontario conditions, but did not AFAIK > address this issue. Medhat reply: Ontario formic acid pads: 1. I did not get into detalis because my talk was about IPM program in general and I was given 30 min which was cut to 20-25 minutes because of adding one more speaker at the end of the mornining session. 2. I have all the data to suport that we did not find any significant effect on brood production in the spring when we tested the MiteAway pad:. The reasons are: a) the material we are using in the pad is dense and releases the formic acid slower than the other material used in the previous pad. b) we place the pad on 2 spacers which leave .5" between the top bar and the pad. Therefore, the pad is not affected by the cluster temperature and the evaporation will occur only based on the ambient temperature. A slide was shown in my talk but I did not comment to much about it because of time. It showed that the peak tempereture when acid evapoted was between about 11 am-3pm. During the application period there was 7 peaks. This makes our treatment as short term formic acid application. c) the room under and above the pad will allow the formic acid vapor to mix with air in the hives. Thus, the bees and queen will not be driven away from the combs. The only requirmnent to make this method of applying formic acid works, is to add 1 inch rim and you need to use inner cover. This will give room to accomedate the pad (5/8") and spacers (1/2") and about 1/2" on the top of the pad. Some beekeepers did not like this idea of having an extra piece on the top of the hive. However, we were able to sell this idea to them by demonstrating if you place the pad directly on the combs the brood production will be affected. Already Ontario beekeepers change their practice by nailing 1 inch rim to the inner cover and use this side of the cover for formic acid treatment. The other side of the sover (1/2") is used during honey production and wintering. The effects of the formic acid gel on brood production has never been tested as far as I know. In the instruction for use, it is placed directly of the top bars. I wonder how this will effect the brood production!!!! Regards, Medhat Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 08:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: info@beeworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Eyre Subject: Re: Liquid Smoke In-Reply-To: <200002160016.TAA17248@listserv.albany.edu> On 15 Feb 00, at 22:04, Ken Hoare wrote: > From the other side of the pond I didn't know that Allen. I tend to agree > with you that maybe the smoker will remain the only tool to use when > working bees, but nevertheless will test Liquid Smoke myself. It would be > interesting to know whether others that have used this substance feel the > same as you. I wrote this up some time ago, had a hard time getting the post accepted, only an appeal to another moderator got it through. Perhaps we should examin the archives?? Liquid Smoke? It's good stuff. I used it for about 2 months at the end of last year, and have no complaints, only praise. A fine spray across the entrance makes the bees run in fairly quickly, another across the top bars on removing the inner cover and the bees are easy to handle, without stunning them into submission. Making up nucs is a breeze, mixed from different hives without fighting and speedy acceptance of the queen. Mind, I didn't have a control hive during my manipulations. ;-)) ***************************************** The Bee Works, 5 Edith Drive, R R # 2. Orillia, Ontario, Canada.L3V 6H2. Phone (705)326 7171 Fax (705)325 3461 David Eyre, e-mail http://www.beeworks.com **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Feb 2000 to 15 Feb 2000 (#2000-45) In-Reply-To: <200002160500.AAA28813@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 2/16/00 -0500, Adrian Wenner wrote: >We in science call upon a law called "Occam's Razor" in such a case; use >the simplest explanation that can accommodate the evidence. Odor is by >far more simple than a human-type language. 1. Between these two explanations, which is more simple?: a) Bees encode spatial information into distinct dance-like movements in order to convey this information to others. b) Many different species of bees have evolved a highly efficient symbolic representation of spatial relationships for *no purpose whatever.* 2. No one ever suggested that the bee dance was a "human-type language." There is no resemblance whatever. All that has been suggested is that the bees communicate information they have to other bees that need it. That many bees ignore this information indicates that many *don't need it* since they are either not nectar foragers, already have enough information to find forage, or are seeking other sources. What is being left out of all these discussions is the decision making process that goes on in the hive, which is the subject of thousands of hours of work by Seeley, Camazine, Calderone, and others. The dancing can be compared to advertising. These bees return with information about nectar sources or nest sites and "advertise" on the dance floor. By processes not yet understood, other bees are influenced to forage or relocate the swarm. As Seeley points out, it would be ineffective if one bee could persuade all bees to go to its chosen source, because the hive needs to distribute its labor over a variety of sources and tasks. Further, if many scouts provide information about many sources, or nest sites, some of this information must be routinely ignored, since there is a limited work force and in the case of the swarm, only one site will be occupied. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 18:15:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: A New Beekeeping Telemetry List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been corresponding with a number of people off-list about the bee telemetry ideas, and think we need a place to compare ideas without turning BEE-L into a technology list. A number of people have some pretty good ideas, but don't want to burden BEE-L with the details. Therefore, BeeGadgets@onelist.com has been created. For further details visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Gadgets/. The new list -- for invention related discussion only -- accepts binaries, so drawings can be exchanged as well as text. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 22:16:06 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Travelling Varroa mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron et al I'm prompted into action once more. >One scenario that had escaped me but seems quite plausible was put forth at the Federation of Irish Beekeepers Association meeting last summer by Madeleine Pym's father (apologies to Mr. Pym, I do not recall his first name... speculated that possibly varroa hops from place to place... with the help of others. That's right, my Dad - Mr Ernest Chant, not Pym, noticed that the first outbreak of varroa in his area (the 2nd area in the UK to be hit by varroa) was in an apiary directly opposite to a very large garden centre. Many flowering annuals (bedding plants) are raised under glass in the Netherlands and imported here. I think another theory concerned the fact that bumble bees are raised in honeybee colonies in the Netherlands, adding to the plausibility of the plot... the bumbles are also used in the glass houses for pollination. On a similar note, and concerning acarine and the speed with which the Isle of White Disease spread across the UK, my father is putting together an article at present (I'll get a copy and email the group) for his local club, based on information in a couple of old beekeeping books. Briefly, it involves the practise of itinerant beekeepers and the sale of 'driven bees'. This meant that bees were driven from skeps and collected together in a box, by the itinerant beekeeper. The skep owner kept the honey and the skep, the traveller kept the bees, which he sold further down the road. Apparently bicycles and then motorcars then allowed him to cover a greater area. [The original package bees] All this just a short time before the 'Isle of White Disease' left its tragic mark. I'll post the whole story once its done. Lastly, concerning the distance mites travel, and varroa floors (I haven't read all my mails lately so hope I don't repeat anyone else's stuff) one suggestion is to have the bees either on a varroa screen and no wooden floor, or with a space of six inches (15cm approx.) between varroa floor and wooden floor. I am told that the varroa mite is unable to climb back from this distance. Having a reversed wooden floor (i.e. entrance is at back of hive) allows you then to easily insert a sticky paper to collect the debris. However, the bees are said to do extremely well with no wooden floor and only the metal varroa screen - no problem's with keeping warm etc. You can expect a 15% natural drop, particularly of young mites, which will not be able to get back into the hive with both of these methods. Madeleine Pym mpym@hive.netkonect.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquid Smoke In-Reply-To: <200002161402.JAA08008@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I wrote this up some time ago, had a hard time getting the post > accepted, only an appeal to another moderator got it through. Perhaps > we should examin the archives?? Good idea. I think it has pretty well all been said there. This particular post to which I am replying right now -- if some do not know -- is, I believe, by a *dealer* for Liquid Smoke, telling us it is wonderful. Maybe it is. I only know that I have encountered honey contamination problems with similar products and advise caution. AFAIK, the product is not, AFAIK, approved for use in beehives or for addition to honey, yet that is what is being recommended. Nor is it traditional and thus 'grandfathered' like natural smoke. (Read the archives for caveats about over-use of natural smoke and for warnings about choice of smoker fuels). Anyone using Liquid Smoke or any other such product must be aware that honey analysis is getting more and more precise -- to the point where some of the natural constituents in 'organic' honey are getting rejections batches of honey by regulators. Differences of opinion are accepted and welcomed here on BEE-L, however when a post seems to be promoting, rather than discussing a product or practice, the moderators have a responsibility to try to balance the input for fairness. > Mind, I didn't have a control hive during my manipulations. Well maybe you should have. A spray bottle of water might have been every bit as good and non-contaminating. And if it wasn't, you'd be able to say so. > ;-)) Some of us take honey purity seriously. And, sure, keep on posting, but please get rid of the chip. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:59:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Capaldi Subject: Tracking Bees with Radar Comments: cc: Jerry J Bromenshenk , Joe Riley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GenevaDear Jerry, Here is my response to your email. I also saw your recent post to the listserver "BEE-L" and thought I'd take the opportunity to respond to both at the same time. I don't think the weight of the transponders is as serious of an issue as you indicated. We used transponders that weigh either 3 or 12 mg, which includes the weight of the bee tags that are used for attaching them to the bees. We mainly used the 12 mg variety for our study. These weights are within the range of the weights that the bees carry in nectar (12-40 mg, 70 mg maximum recorded weight) and pollen (8-30 mg). Aside from these general considerations, we also published data in the paper to support the idea that tracked bees showed normal flight.=20 =46irst, we reported that bees fitted with transponders began their orientation flights with a brief period of hovering facing the colony entrance before departure, just as has been previously reported in the scientific literature. Second, we compared tracked and untracked bees for hints of a transponder effect and found none. There were no differences between the duration of the orientation flights of bees with and without transponders [with: mean =B1 s.e., 331.6 sec =B1 59.2 (n =3D 29) vs. without: 340.1 sec =B1 26.4 (n =3D 219), Wilcoxon test, P > 0.05, n.s.]. I can also share with you anecdotal evidence, not formally described in the paper. We repeatedly saw foraging bees (wearing the transponder) return to the nest after foraging - they returned to the hive with pollen on their legs or engorged with nectar. These were not the bees that were used for analysis of orientation, but we tracked some foragers just to get a feel for their flight activity. We did present one track of a successful forager in the paper to illustrate how different forager flights are than orientation flights.=20 You're right that the system does have some limitations. We could only track the movements of one bee at a time. It would be nice to look at several for the sake of efficiency and to see whether bees that orient at the same time also fly to the same places. However, the other side of that coin is that there is no way we could have confused the flight of one bee with the flight of another bee because there was only one transponder tracked at a time. Also, Riley's harmonic radar system does not pick up 'pings' or signals from other kinds of diodes in the area, as you suggested it might, because of the specificity of the transponder. Riley has worked very hard on this issue and is quite confident of the specificity of the transponder, but I'm sorry I am not liberty to share with you the details. I can tell you first-hand that the presence of two-way radios at the hive, well within the range of the radar, created no ambiguities in radar data. The transponder is too big to allow bees to wear it inside the hive without altering their behavior. That's why we carefully attached it and then removed it prior to and after each flight. The transponder-no transponder comparison mentioned above suggests no ill effects of transponder application. And since each bee was tracked only once (we worked only with tagged bees, so we know the identity of each tracked bee), transponder removal is not an issue. Having to attach and remove the transponder means that it will be difficult (but not impossible) to get repeated measures of the same individual, which would really be nice to go beyond the correlations we report. So we agree that it will be nice to further miniaturize the transponders, something Joe and his colleagues are working on. =20 =46inally, you indicated that the harmonic system we used was similar to that developed to track avalanche victims; this isn't the case. The two types of harmonic systems are quite different. The harmonic radar system uses a real scanning radar (which is an acronym for radio detection/direction and ranging) system that detects both position and range; the avalanche stuff only provides directional information (unfortunately for the avalanche victim!) In summary, while the system is not perfect for every application, we believe that it did not produce any artifacts in the data we collected. Best of luck to you with the development of your "RF" system. Elizabeth Capaldi Elizabeth A. Capaldi, PhD Dept of Entomology=20 505 S. Goodwin Avenue 320 Morrill Hall University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign Urbana IL 61801 USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 14:18:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Tracking Bees with Radar In-Reply-To: <200002162006.PAA25200@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:59 PM 2/16/00 -0600, you wrote: Elizabeth is correct, the radar tracking system used for finding skiers is not the same as that used by Riley and her colleagues. The system used for finding skiers is used for tracking small mammals and some larger insects (a recent article appears in National Geographic. However, as I understand, both systems use a diode and antennae on the bee and the principal is similar. A transmitter activates the diode. You don't need a power source on the bee. A receiver picks up the signal that is bounced back. How you process the signal and what you do with that signal varies greatly between the two systems. And, there are some significant differences in the signal generated, which affects antennae length, etc. I chose to present the skier scenario because some folks seemed to be asking whether this was "for real", and indeed these systems are real and used for purposes other than simply tracking insects. Also, the details of Joe's system are proprietary. Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 17:18:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Open mesh or screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just had a telephone discussion with Peter Borst, who works at Cornell University. Based on that discussion I now believe that the references I was making to a paper being published on the results of the tests made at Cornell were incorrect because the results of that study have never been published. Instead, Calderone reported on the study verbally at a meeting last November. Calderone reported, as did Pettis in Florida, that populations at the end of the season were no different for hives with screen bottoms compared to hives with normal bottoms. This is important, as screen or mesh bottoms will not, by themselves, allow beekeepers to avoid use of chemicals. However, the use of screen bottoms, killing of drone brood, formic acid, etc. should allow beekeepers to reduce the use of fluvalinate (Apistan, in the US) and hopefully never have to use Coumaphos. If, through a combination of methods, we can reduce the use of fluvalinate to once a year, some beekeepers may be able to avoid mites resistant to fluvalinate. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:19:38 +1100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Julian O'Dea Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Feb 2000 to 15 Feb 2000 (#2000-45) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Adrian Wenner: >We in science call upon a law called "Occam's Razor" in such a case; use the simplest explanation that can accommodate the evidence. Odor is by >far more simple than a human-type language. Peter Borst: 1. Between these two explanations, which is more simple?: a) Bees encode spatial information into distinct dance-like movements in order to convey this information to others. b) Many different species of bees have evolved a highly efficient symbolic representation of spatial relationships for *no purpose whatever.* Julian O'Dea: There is a third possibility, c), which I discuss at http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html This is that the symbolic representation evolved as idiothetic behaviour: for the benefit of the *individual, foraging bee*. The "dance" later evolved the function of attracting other bees to the dancer, to pick up odours. No symbolic communication, though. Canberra, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002160500.AAA28813@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings, The only work we did with screened bottom boards at Cornell was in summer of 1999. The results were inconclusive and it is doubtful they will be published. I would hesitate to invest much time in money in this technique until someone shows that it is effective. - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst Apiary Technician Dyce Honeybee Lab Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 plb6@cornell.edu phone: 607 275 0266 http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:42:42 -0700 Reply-To: flightdeck1@earthlink.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re-animation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How is that bees can survive following hours frozen and submerged? Somehow come to life with a quick warm wash? Bees which appear in EVERY aspect to be completely dead - tongues sticking up, solid bodies, submerged in honey/syrup for hours & stone-cold .... only to awaken after running them under warm water and dumping onto a paper towel. Last night I left out a bucket of scrap comb and watered-down honey for my 'house hive' to rob out. Since I didn't get home until late, that bucket set out all night long in Colorado February weather (30F?). This morning I found hundreds of bees stuck to the bottom of the bucket sucked down into the syrup. Not that I'm trying to save every bee in my apiary, but I wanted to see if they could survive so I scooped them out and washed them in a strainer for a few seconds and dropped them onto some paper towels. Their antennae start twitching, then the abdomen starts pumping followed by shaky legs and finally ...it's alive! (reference Young Frankenstein). Over half of those bees came through and are upstairs in a jar trying to find a way out. How far can a bees metabolism slow? Matthew Westall Earthling Bees - Castle Rock, CO ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:23:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200002170501.AAA14779@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I hate to be the doubting Thomas but I personally don't see how the screened bottom board could work. I have watched mites cling tenaciously to bees and find it hard to imagine very many simple fall off and can't get back up. The mites that do fall off may simply be mites that are old and no longer strong enough to cling. Think of a hive full of bees and frames, and possibly a certain amount of burr comb, and think of a mite losing its grip. Is it going to go tumbling all the way to the bottom like Alice falling down the rabbit hole? Or simply drop a few centimeters onto another bee, or get snagged on a piece of comb? PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:12:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Animal starvation & the weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following story about a recent Colorado study might demonstrate how global warming could possibly have a deleterious effect on beekeeping, bees being a "species that depends on seasonal cues for their survival." The idea is that warm springs with deeper snowpacks cause animals to come out of hibernation too soon before vegetation appears, with starvation being the result. The study concerns high altitude areas only, but perhaps there are broader repercussions at all altitudes. Maybe in the future, we will need to leave more honey on the hives for winter than in the past, even if spring does seem to come sooner. By Margot Higgins Climate change may be disrupting the hibernation and migration patterns of animals and birds, according to a recent study. A study in the Feb. 15 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences indicates that global warming may pose special challenges to species that depend on seasonal cues for their survival. Despite a trend toward warmer spring temperatures, the average snowmelt in areas of high altitude has not changed, noted David Inouye, lead author of the study. And the snow pack might be getting deeper with time. "One prediction of climate change is that winter snow packs are actually increasing," he said. "Vegetation (which depends on snow melt) is not happening earlier at high altitudes, but species are arriving earlier," Inouye added. For example, marmots, which usually hibernate for eight months, are emerging earlier, risking starvation as they wait longer and longer for the snow to melt. Marmots are appearing 38 days earlier than they did 23 years ago, according to the study. Similarly, American robins are migrating an average of two weeks earlier than they did 23 years ago, moving from low-altitude wintering grounds to high-altitude summer breeding grounds. They, too, must wait longer for the snow to melt before they can feed and nest. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:47:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Russell Subject: liquid smoke- nucs In a recent posting David Eyre mentioned the use of liquid smoke when working nucs. This is our first year using liquid smoke while making up mating nucs. I must say, it seems to work real well. You appear to be able to get a few more adult bees to stay on the frames. (we don't stock our nucs with bulk bees). This under some conditions has been a problem in the past. My question is - does anybody have experience using liquid smoke while planting cells? Later in the season we don't have any problem with cell acceptance but sometimes the first early planting could be better. Over the years we tried lots of different things with no apparent results. I should mention that we put a little bit of wintergreen oil in our "smoke". Looking forward to any replies, Bill Russell Eustis, Fl. USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:18:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200002171323.IAA23599@listserv.albany.edu> from "Peter Borst" at Feb 17, 2000 07:23:05 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > > Greetings > I hate to be the doubting Thomas but I personally don't see > how the screened bottom board could work. I have watched mites cling > tenaciously to bees and find it hard to imagine very many simple fall > off and can't get back up. The mites that do fall off may simply be > mites that are old and no longer strong enough to cling. As I understand it, the main idea with the screened bottom board was originally to increase the effectiveness of other mite control measures. For example, fluvalinate, formic acid, or bee grooming behavior are likely to "stun" or otherwise dislodge a lot more mites than they actually kill. If the stunned mites just fall to the bottom board, recover, and climb onto the next passing bee, then obviously the mite control is less effective than if they fall through a screen and can't get back. For that matter, it seems to me that the screen floors should be good for delaying the development of resistance to fluvalinate and other chemical treatments, because the "resistant" mites are probably still affected by the chemical, they just aren't killed outright. If being partially affected means that they still drop out of the hive through the screen, then they won't be able to breed more resistant mites. So, is anyone carrying out serious, controlled studies to compare the effectiveness with and without screened bottoms of, say, formic acid or fluvalinate? -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:36:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Animal startvation & the weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies. I should have included the source for this story. It is from the Environmental News Network Story at: http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2000/02/02152000/cchange_10004.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 18:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Open mesh or screen bottoms In-Reply-To: <200002162257.RAA03860@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > If, through a combination of methods, we can reduce the use of fluvalinate > to once a year, some beekeepers may be able to avoid mites resistant to > fluvalinate. > And this is very important. Information from out state bee inspectors is that it will be a long time before mites resistant to fluvalinate will breed out the resistance. If cumophos is lost due to resistance, abuse or its environmental dangers then we have a problem. Until we have a way to keep bees alive without treaments, the honey bee is in grave danger. I would be afraid that if we were to see something like a major economic disaster (such as the great depression of the 1920's) we could lose the entire species. The mite free areas of the Pacific are the last refuge. With the current bee pests, the mites, the beetles, the AFB I am wondering if we will not see the end of honey bees outside of the areas that are now "mite free". Of course this could have the effect of a giant "reset" where the pests die with the hosts and we could start over with "clean" stock. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:04:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 14 Feb 2000 to 15 Feb 2000 (#2000-45) In-Reply-To: <200002162259.RAA03960@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Julian O'Dea: There is a third possibility, c), which I > discuss at > > http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-13/ns_jdo.html > > This is that the symbolic representation evolved as > idiothetic behaviour: for the benefit of the *individual, > foraging bee*. The "dance" later evolved the function > of attracting other bees to the dancer, to pick up odours. > No symbolic communication, though. > > Canberra, Australia > And I would offer yet another. That as the bee began its journey to the complex social insect it is today, the early bee evolved the dance communication to direct sisters to the food source. As the chemical communications became more refined the need for the dance was reduced. What we are seeing today is what is left of the old genetic code. In your article referenced above you mention that the africanized honey bee dances, but the information is not used. This could be an indication that the environment has pressured these bees away from relying on the dance as other methods evolved. The fact that "dancing" conveys information that is human readable is a big hangup for me. The amount of time and pressure that it would take to evolve random movments to a pattern is great. However, the self imprinting theory you put forth does carry some weight in "paying" for this cost. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:47:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee dance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > And I would offer yet another. And another: They dance because they're happy! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > studies to compare the effectiveness with and without screened bottoms of, > say, formic acid or fluvalinate? Another thing of interest (as touched upon by Peter's comments) would be the condition of the fallen mites in the control hives. Are they old and decrepid or beaten up by grooming bees and on their way out anyway, or are they lively, verile mites that you'd be glad to have fall out of your hive? Although screened boards aren't as promising as they first appeared, there is a lot that is still unknown about this possible useful tool in an IPM program. Aaron Morris - thinking the more we know, the more there is that we don't know! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:21:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Screened bottoms Peter Borst says: "Is it going to go tumbling all the way to the bottom like Alice falling down the rabbit hole? Or simply drop a few centimeters onto another bee, or get snagged on a piece of comb?" when questioning how effective screened bottoms will be based on how likely it is for mites to lose their grip and fall clear to the bottom. A couple of thoughts come to my mind immediately (well, at least ONE thought does anyway), which is that I recall reading that smoking bees with tobacco smoke causes quite a mite drop. I don't know how significant it is or whether or not it has been scientifically or statistically studied, but if smoking the bees causes a significant number of mites to drop off, and if by falling through a screen they would then be unable to return to the bees and comb, I would think that every time you smoked your bees you could be "de-lousing" them, so to speak. I use dried Perilla in my smoker now, hoping that the aromatic chemicals released as it is heated and burns (that are purported to kill Varroa mites) might have some positive effect on the bees and negative effect on the mites. Mine isn't a controlled study, but it is a hope. At least I believe it won't hurt and might help. I imagine that there might be other factors besides old age or accidentally losing its grip that might cause a mite to fall. One of the problems with Apistan is the mites sealed in the cells that will not come in contact with it until they emerge. I like to think that I'm giving my bees a treatment each time I smoke them and open the hive to look at them. Is it formic acid that can kill them even while they're sealed in the cells without hurting the developing bees? Did anyone ever figure out how long the mites are out of the cells before they go back into a sealed cell? This would be a factor in determining how frequently one would need to treat their bees in order to control the mites that are outside the cell. I also understand that it is more effective to treat for mites (higher level of control) when there is no brood present in the colony. My thoughts keep wandering on to other related subjects, so I'd better quit here before getting any further afield. Later. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 08:54:32 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Varroa mite hosts (was Re: Open mesh or screen bottoms) In-Reply-To: <200002171456.JAA27354@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This comment brings up a question: are we quite sure the Varroa Mite is specific only to bees? On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Al wrote: > if we will not see the end of honey bees outside of the areas that are now > "mite free". Of course this could have the effect of a giant "reset" where > the pests die with the hosts and we could start over with "clean" stock. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:04:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200002171555.KAA00149@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...condition of the fallen mites in the control hives. Are they old and > decrepit or beaten up by grooming bees and on their way out anyway, or are > they lively, virile mites that you'd be glad to have fall out of your hive? They vary from immature to active to old and to dead mites. Immatures fall down since a mite's development stops when the cell is uncapped and the bee emerges. FWIW, if a pupa dies, and thus does not emerge on schedule, I assume the mites keep developing on the carcass until house bees uncap, since Kenn showed us the mites can live quite a while on dead brood. That's all the more reason to have hygienic bees -- and fast ones too. Active adults fall due to a number of factors, including random chance. Old and weak or dying mites, naturally drop to the floor eventually. Some bees damage mites more than other strains, and in such hives many chewed mites may be found on the floor. All in all, the study of floors and what drops is fascinating. Look closely and you will wonder what you are looking at. You may remember looking at sticky boards when you were here, and all the odd things we saw. Sticky boards are stick partly to keep the active mites from climbing back up. I saw a talk at Apimondia where the researcher showed mite traps and experiments to see how many mites dropping would go back up, and how far. I can't recall the speaker, or the details, but the results were pretty amazing. > Aaron Morris - thinking the more we know, the more there is that we don't > know! That's true, and much of what we know is wrong, or only true in certain situations. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:37:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: re-animation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Feeding the bees in cold weather, I've had a few fly out and they always seem to cling to me, often unnoticed. Later, they revive in the house after having been out for an hour or more in freezing weather on my clothes. They do seem to enjoy a good feed after having been chilled. Once they're loaded with sweets they go into any hive OK. (All must be clean) Also, when being fed in division board feeders in warmer weather, sometimes a handful of greedy bees appear to drown. They actually refuse to move for the rising syrup level. I simply scoop them out unconscious and place them on the frame tops. By the time the pouring is done, their greedy sisters lick them clean, they come to, and seem none the worse for the wear, nor do they or their sisters get angry. No great number of dead bees shows up at the entrance, the undertakers seem not to do any unusual business, and they don't show up dead in the feeder, so they must be OK. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Animal starvation & the weather Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:12 PM 2/16/2000 EST, John wrote: > The following story about a recent Colorado study might demonstrate how >global warming could possibly have a deleterious effect on beekeeping, bees >being a "species that depends on seasonal cues for their survival." > The idea is that warm springs with deeper snowpacks cause animals to come >out of hibernation too soon before vegetation appears, with starvation being >the result. Global warming or whatever, our balmy Fall and early Winter here in Maine certainly kept bees here raising brood later than is safe. Lots of honey was eaten. Losses here would be significant were it not for attention to feeding. The result here seems to be heading toward large unplanned increase, but could easily be death. Here, sugar cakes seem to sustain life at colder times when contact with honey might be lost, though the modest amount of sugar consumed seems to indicate that honey is being used at warmer times. Considerable pollen substitute is also being consumed, probably because of excess pollen depleted last Fall. The bees seem very enthusiastic about pollen patties, buzzing loudly when they get them. For feral or poorly tended bees, it looks like heavy losses this year. The danger time is from now until the red maples bloom. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:40:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Animal starvation & the weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/00 8:49:31 AM EST, JMitc1014@AOL.COM writes: << The study concerns high altitude areas only, but perhaps there are broader repercussions at all altitudes. Maybe in the future, we will need to leave more honey on the hives for winter than in the past, even if spring does seem to come sooner. >> That's nothing new in the southeastern US. With our mild winters, and bees flying quite a bit thru most of them, it's easy to deceive ourselves into thinking that the bees are actually getting something. Mostly, though, they are just burning up what they have. Pollen is generously available most of the winter, but nectar is most definitely NOT. The bees will get a temporary flush of nectar when the maples bloom, which the past couple years has been at the end of January; with our cold January, they have been held back, and I expect to see them any day now. But maple will deceive the newbie. Sometimes they even will cap a little honey, and we think they are just doing great. Two weeks later the maple is gone, plus more of the reserves. Throughout March there are tiny dribbles of nectar, no real flows. I've seen some powerful hives starve to death March 15-20. Without reserves, all it takes is a couple days of rain or cold to interrupt the meagre supply they have been finding. It's also amazing how quickly the concern changes from food supply to swarm prevention. My own plan is to feed all, whether they appear to need it or not, until March 25, while having a second brood body on all the strong ones by March 10-15. Dave http:pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 13:47:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bee dance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/17/00 10:56:43 AM EST, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: << > And I would offer yet another. And another: They dance because they're happy! >> I made that point in my book "A Shirker, not a Worker," the story of Jill, the Lazy Bee, which was peer reviewed by kids who are trapped in adult bodies. Our pastor has gone to Israel for a visit, and he says he's gonna' dance in the tomb of Our Lord. Wish I could go too! Can't think of a better reason to dance. Dave http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 15:41:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Treatment for Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw this on the beekeeping newsgroup and would like your thoughts concerning it use as a varroa treatment. Anyone use it? Any truth to it. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME. Quote- with some editing: get a 100 gram bottle of thymol. Add 1/2 ounce of menthol and 1/2 ounce of champhor. Fill the bottle with Eucaliptus oil. Let it stand for a day in the sun until all is disolved. buy a pack or two of cheap (10 for a buck) sponges. Cut them in half. In a bucket or bowl with rubber gloves soak the sponges and wring them out. Place a sponge on the frames under the inner cover. Repeat a week or two later if necessary. You will probably have to special order the thymol and eucaliptus oil. A jar of your best honey to the head pharmasist is a good investment. Using this treatment every couple of years takes care of the resistance problem. Really makes the Apiary smell nice too! USDA in Beltsville, Maryland developed this treatment. Another message- quote continued: This treatment was developed by Nick Calderone sp? when he worked at Beltsville. According to his talk on the subject he had somewhere around 99% kill rate. The actual formulation of his was 75% Thymol, 16% Eucaliptus, 4.5% Campher, and 4.5% Menthol. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:19:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Animal starvation & the weather MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I spoke with the researcher, David Inouye, today. He said he began gathering his data in 1973. He has colleagues where he works at the University of Maryland who have been gathering data starting from about the same time in the Washington DC area. He said their data showed that at lower altitudes, plants were appearing and flowering sooner. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:10:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Hoare Subject: OMF's - they do work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm always joking about our wet climate, trying to discourage others moving into a beautiful part of the UK. But when the ground was dryer last autumn I actually laid on the grass trying to count the number of varroa mites that had freely, no treatments, fallen through my Open Mesh Floors. Floors that are huge great gaping holes simply covered with a piece of eight wires to the inch steel mesh, and as far as I am concerned, and despite the inconclusive investigations at Cornell, they ASSIST in controlling varroa mite infestations. Permit me to explain. Due to back problems I now use 15" high hive stands which obviously gives me a good view under the hive. As a hobbyist (put that for fellows who work 1000+ colonies) I place the stands on concrete paving slabs, keeps the grass and weeds down, gives a dry area underneath etc etc. Well it was the surface of these slabs that I examined and saw mites, plenty of them. Collected them and put them under a hand lens (I use what is called a 'linen tester', very much like a watchmakers eyepiece), just to make sure. They were definitely varroa mites. Thought with the number I was observing there must be a serious infestation within the hive and started uncapping both drone and worker brood (now always part of a normal examination) and couldn't find mites. Know that I should have put a solid floor back, placed a paper insert on it and put either Bayvarol or Apistan strips in to monitor the mite fall. But I didn't as the grass was growing longer at home and the paint was peeling off the woodwork, so just put the strips in for the 6 weeks period. But it will take a lot to convince me that mites do not fall the whole depth of the brood frame to take the 15" drop to the concrete slab below. Some years ago a product by the name of Apivar was registered in France, I was sent the trade literature but then heard no more about this varroa treatment. But I quote from that literature; "Varroa mites breed very quickly : a female mite born on January 1st will have given birth to 1,000 mites by December 31st of the same year." If I can encourage just one solitary mite to take the drop through my sieve like floors it is obvious to me that I could have prevented a serious build-up of mites. And if you have read this far it must be obvious that I do not use this method as the sole means of controlling varroa. I do not like the acids because I believe them hazardous to both my bees and me, relatively ineffective and extremely labour intensive. No it's chemical strips, WHEN NEEDED, and good old Open Mesh Floors, that's my method of Varroa Integrated Pest Management. Ken steps off his soap box straight into a quagmire of Shropshire mud. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:42:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Riley Subject: Radar Tracking MIME-Version: 1.0 I offer the following comments in amplification of Jerry Bromenshenk's recent note about harmonic radar and bees, which appeared under the subject 'Research Funding' The hand held 'skier' units to which Jerry refers are often loosely called radars, but in fact they are actually harmonic direction finders - they tell you roughly in what direction the target is, but crucially, NOT its range; (RADAR = RAdio Direction And Ranging). So to locate a target you have to walk (or run!) along the direction of strongest signal until you can actually see it. By contrast, the system that we designed and built, and used with Beth Capaldi is a true, scanning radar that gives instantaneous position fixes (target range and bearing) once every three seconds, and so yields dynamic and geometrically accurate records of the insects' actual flight paths. You don't have to guess where a bee is when it's out of sight, you KNOW its actual position (and ground speed). The maximum range of our radar is currently about 900m, so it gives coverage over a 1.8 km diameter circle, i.e. over an area of about 2.5 square kilometres. We first described it in 1996 (Riley et al. "Tracking bees with harmonic radar", Nature 379, 29-30) An interesting summary of radar and bee studies is given in Norman Carreck's 1993 article in Bee World, 80 (3), 124-131. Harmonic radar has proved particularly useful in investigating flight by bumble bees: (Riley et al 1999, "Compensation for the wind by bumble bees", Nature 400, 126); (Osborne et al., 1999 "A landscape-scale study of foraging range and constancy, using harmonic radar" J. Appl. Ecol 36, 519-533). We have also used it successfully to track night-flying moths (Riley et al. 1998, "Harmonic radar as a means of tracking the pheromone-finding and pheromone-following flight of male moths", J. Insect. Behav. 11, 287-296). For a more general overview of radar entomology, see Alistair Drake's excellent Radar Entomology Web Site (http://www.ph.adfa.edu.au/a-drake/trews/). Jerry correctly draws attention to the need to keep the weight of the transponder as low as possible, and we have produced operational devices that weigh just less than one milligram (equivalent to about a single grain of sugar) with this in mind. However, these lightweight transponders were mechanically rather fragile, and were often bent and damaged when being fitted to the bees. It was for this practical reason that we often choose to use the heavier and more robust versions described in Beth's paper. Unfortunately, all our transponders are 16mm long (but about 1 tenth of the optimal required for the hand-held direction finders), so (as Jerry points out) they have to be removed before returning bees can actually re-enter their hive. This is inconvenient, but has not proved an impossible obstacle in our studies so far. -- Prof. Joe Riley, M.A., D.Phil., FIEE, C.Eng. NRI Radar Unit, University of Greenwich, Malvern, UK Tel: +44-(0)1684-582193 Fax: +44-(0)1684-582984 jriley@nriradar.demon.co.uk / J.R.Riley@greenwich.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Treatment for Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill Truesdell asks about a concoction of different oils of essence (a more correct name for essential oils). > 100 gram bottle of thymol, Add 1/2 ounce of menthol and 1/2 ounce of > champhor... > This treatment was developed by Nick Calderone when he worked at > Beltsville.... Nick's work was initially very promising, his concoction appeared highly effective and there was quite a stir in the beekeeping community. There were others doing similar work (James Armine in West Virginia for one) on oils of essence. I believe Jim's work is available online, although I don't recall the url, but it's in the BEE-L archives. Calderone was doing his work right around the time he succeeded Roger Morse at Cornell. Subsequent experiments had less promising results. Conclusions were that the treatment can be highly effective, sometimes, but not reliably. This seems to be a common theme in the varroa saga. A treatment looks effective, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's a long list including oils of essence, mineral oil, screened bottom boards, smoker fuels (many of which have been touted - cedar shavings, stag horn sumac, grapefruit leaves, ...). Most of these treatments have been discussed and disseminated on BEE-L, have been quickly picked up by the beekeeping community and have subsequently not stood up to field laboratory studies. The rapid dissemination of "shaky science" has been an oft heard criticism of BEE-L and internet lists in general, which is why you have to be cautious of what you read and try. And this is not to say that none of the treatments discussed here or mentioned above are useless. Many are included in the arsenal of IPM. The problem with these treatments is that they don't achieve the levels of control that did Apistan or does for the time being (resistance is already showing up in where else? Italy!) Coumophos. That the above mentioned treatments do not achieve 99% knock down of varroa has had them looked upon with lesser favor from the commercial ranks, where time of treatment (labor costs) is a big part of the considerations. However, ever 99% knock down is being reexamined as a goal, as it's that remaining 1% that breeds the resistance to the treatment du jour. The latest aim is to reach the "economic threshold", defined as the level of varroa a hive (or yard) can tolerate without causing economic loss. I understand the concept, but find it laughable. With the dynamics of varroa populations, the economic threshold this week can grow exponentially to crash level and severe economic losses in a very short time. But anything that can knock back (not eliminate) the varroa population is a good thing. A round of drone trapping is a set back in an exponential curve. A less than 99% knock down achieved by an oils of essence treatment is a set back in an exponential curve. Mesh bottoms alone, still show an exponential curve, although the rate of increase is not as dramatic. Combinations of the above treatments give continual set backs in the exponential curves, and can keep varroa populations below the "economic threshold" if the threshold in your operation does not include the labor costs to employ the method(s) of control. Aaron Morris - thinking like a mathematician! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:03:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Treatment for Varroa In-Reply-To: <200002180557.AAA29739@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings, There is a big problem with some of the treatments mentioned on this list: they're illegal. Granted, you may think that they're your bees and you can do what you want with them, but if you inadvertently contaminate the honey, you will be liable for the harm you cause, not to mention you may have to dump your crop. I suggest you use only approved formulas in the approved manner. Some chemicals may remain in the hive for decades. In talking with various beekeepers, I have found that many of them disregard the labeling or try concoctions of their own. Very often whole apiaries seem to have low mite counts due to environmental or other factors. When one conducts an "experiment" one has to make sure that "results" are related to the treatment. There must be no mixing of treatments unless it is a mixture of treatments that is being tried. There must be non-treatment (control) hives. There has to be a large enough number of trials to minimize variation due to non-treatment factors. When someone says "I tried such and such and it seemed to work" this means less than nothing. When someone says "I did this to all my hives and they were better than last year" - same thing. Researchers get a lot of criticism for being skeptical of home-cures. There are accepted procedures for "proving" techniques and if these aren't followed the "results" have no validity. If the results can't be reproduced, what good are they? Beekeepers were using antibiotics on AFB colonies long before the inspectors gave the nod to this method. The inspectors wanted to wipe out AFB, not just cover it up. Now most beekeepers use antibiotics routinely, with no hope of ever eradicating AFB. Most of the inspectors are gone. PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:54:15 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002151817.NAA29734@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Just a brief input on this subject. We have been trialling these for a couple of years now. Whilst we cannot comment on their effect on varroa, there appear to be no adverse effects on colony development and possibly even a benefit in wintering. The floors we are using are made in Germany and Sweden and have been produced there for many years, so it is not a new thing. Particularly in the case of Sweden, where they are apparently very popular, I cannot see how they would be much used if the cold caused problems. The floors in question are permanent year round migratable floors made from tough, hard, expanded polystyrene, and the centre portion (approx 50%) of the floor is replaced by a mesh screen. They are not completely compatible with wooden hive bodies as they are manufactured as one component of a fully polystyrene hive. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: long duration and short duration formic acid treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here in the USA, our legal option for the use of formic acid seems to be the gel form. Is this like the soft material mentioned by Dr. Nasr, or is it more like the MiteAway pad he uses? The Apicure literature mentions some effect on brood, but wasn't very specific about how great that effect might be. It would be nice to use a method that minimally affects brood rearing. In trying to decide whether to use formic acid gel this spring, I'm unsure how to relate what has been discussed about formic acid to what is legal here. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:46:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/18/00 12:18:58 PM, murray@DENROSA.DEMON.CO.UK writes: << Whilst we cannot comment on their effect on varroa, there appear to be no adverse effects on colony development and possibly even a benefit in wintering. >> But do we know what effect these screens have on small hive beetle access to the colonies — How would SHB infestation (and treatment) be effected? I imagine SHB will probably find its way into a hive no matter what, but a screened bottom sure seems like an open invitation. Past history of use in countries where the SHB doesn't exist may not be a reliable indicator of whether, on balance, open-screened bottoms are a liability or an asset where the SHB exists. It seems that placing a screen over a regular bottom board will allow an area to treat the SHB without any possibility of contact between Comophous and the honey bees. Likewise, if a product like Bee 401 (manufactured in France) — Bt type K for control of wax moths — was applied in this area then it would essentially become a trap for wax moths, too. Perhaps this screened off area where the bees can't access could be baited with comb that would attract honeycomb pests that could be treated there without fear of hive contamination. John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:15:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter R Watt Subject: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, I am researching the cost of being a member of Local Beekeeping Associations. (Not National ones) Primarily, I am interested in British ones, but any information from elsewhere, gratefully received. Of further interest, is what do you get, in return for your money? Members nights, lectures, demonstrations, loan of equipment, loan of bees, club apiaries etc. If there is sufficient information I will endeavour to do a small breakdown and post it. Many thanks in advance. Pete. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:10:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Attila31@AOL.COM Subject: Mustard oil against the mites? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IA german publication lists mustard oil used against the mites. Did anybody have any experience with this compound and how is it used? How effective is this methode fof mite treatment? Thanks for your help. Attila ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:47:09 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002181750.MAA17321@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200002181750.MAA17321@listserv.albany.edu>, John Mitchell writes > But do we know what effect these screens have on small hive beetle access >to the colonies How would SHB infestation (and treatment) be effected? I >imagine SHB will probably find its way into a hive no matter what, but a >screened bottom sure seems like an open invitation. As you observe, SHB is not found in either of the countries I mentioned, nor indeed in Scotland where I am. I have little knowledge of this pest apart from what i glean on these groups, but one significant factor may be size. What the relative size of the SHB is compared to the varroa mite could give rise to an opportunity to fit screens which permit the mite to fall through but prevent the beetle gaining access. The floors we have in use experimentally have a very fine mesh on them, smaller even than the mesh used where people use travel screens. I don't know what the exact size is, and all the floors we have are on hives at the moment. I would hazard that this is a point which sounds like a valid contention, but in practice would make little difference to SHB infestation, as by all reports I have read they are pretty efficient at finding the hive entrance anyway, and you can't close that off. Regards murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 18:58:54 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jonathan Kemp Subject: Re: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Peter, I am the Secretary of the Stroud (Gloucestershire) Beekeepers Association. Our subscription is £25.00 p.a. For that members get: 1. Third party insurance. (up to £2,000,000) 2. We hold monthly meetings at which we have guest speakers talking on beekeeping related topics. 3. We have a book library of over 60 books which members can borrow free of charge. 4. We have four videos which members can borrow free of charge. 5. We hold about two apiary meetings a year (at members apiaries) 6. We are about to start a branch apiary for educational and queen rearing purposes. 7. A Quaterly package containing: The Bee Keepers Quaterly, Information from the BBKA and GBKA. Of the £25.00 subscription, the branch only keeps £2.00 and has to pass the £23.00 on to the Gloucestershire Beekeepers Association. However, we can claim some money back (up to £60.00 p.a. to pay for Guest Speakers). With only £2.00 per member per year comming into branch funds we can barely cover the costs of paying for the hall were we hold our monthly meetings. Consequently, we are thinking about raising our subscription to £30.00 p.a. I would be interested in receiving any similar information yo might receive from other associations kind regards Jon Kemp We are thinking of raising the subscriptions to £30 as the current reve ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:01:01 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: long duration and short duration formic acid treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If Apicure has at long last secured the approval of EPA and the Drug Administration and the gel is designed by Shimanuki and other highly prominent bee researchers, I am not sure why you have a question. Liquid Formic Acid or Mite-Away Pads are illegal in the U.S. and we already have too many people exceeding the speed limit. Our government agencies, universities, EAS and ABF Foundations spend tons of money hiring scientists to research treatments for our bee problems. Too may people, rather than giving money to these qualified researchers are spending money on anecdotal so-called cures conjured up by unqualified personnel. I have been in personal contact with Medhat concerning IPM, and of course the use of Formic Acid has been legal for quite some time in Canada, but that does not give we Americans to right to use it. One can't drive 100 mph on I 95 just because the German Auto Bahn has no speed limit. As an old retired scientist, I trust our researchers to work on behalf of both me and my bees. I just wish they could find ways to be better funded than "begging for money" which they have to do now, since the Clinton Administration has deemed that honey bees are not very important, and some universities have discontinued teaching beekeeping in favor more computer academia. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:12:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My local county association which meets monthly is $10/year, but others are only $5 Our State Association which meets 4 times/year is $15/year The Eastern Apicultural Society which includes 22 states and Canada and meets once a year for 5 days is $20 The American Beekeepers Federation which meets once/year for 4 days is $25. I think they are all too cheap for what you can find out from them. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:03:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Treatment for Varroa In-Reply-To: <200002181306.IAA07131@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200002181306.IAA07131@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >Bill Truesdell asks about a concoction of different oils of essence (a more >correct name for essential oils). > >> 100 gram bottle of thymol, Add 1/2 ounce of menthol and 1/2 ounce of >> champhor... >Aaron Morris - thinking like a mathematician! The product Apilife licensed in Italy for treatment of Varroa uses thymol, camphor, eucaplytus and menthol. The Devon Apicultural Research Group in the UK did trials with this in 1996 and achieved knock down rates of above 90% for some designs of hive. The results are available at: www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2352/ I achieved some good results but only in a small scale uncontrolled trial. The apilife application method is very quick and easy, but needs two visits per hive. I believe that there is discussion about Apilife in the Archives regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:24:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Treatment for Varroa In-Reply-To: <200002181513.KAA11847@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200002181513.KAA11847@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst writes > There is a big problem with some of the treatments mentioned on >this list: they're illegal. Legal/illegal varies from Country to Country; I believe this is an International list, so subscribers, please treat scattergun comments on 'legality' with care. In the UK the question of what is legal and what is illegal is very hard to determine. There are some very specific Regulations that outlaw everything but Licensed medicines. However the Government Agency that drew up these Regulations has subsequently given advice that other substances - 'non-medicinal curative substances'- can be used in the hive provided that if they are transmitted to animal product they would not be harmful to human health. Sadly there is no definitive list of these substances, so it is very much a case of 'user beware'. In European Regulations defining maximum residue limits of veterinary medicinal products in foodstuffs of animal origin, menthol and thymol are not subject to maximum residue limits, and camphor, eucalyptol and formic acid are listed as 'generally recognised as safe' and are also free of maximum residue limits. Thus the substances mentioned by Bill Truesdell are apparently not illegal in the European Union, nor is formic acid subject to any licensing requirement, Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:56:25 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter R Watt To: Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 6:15 PM Subject: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. > Dear all, > I am researching the cost of being a member of Local Beekeeping > Associations. (Not National ones) > Pete. > I belong to the northern branch of devon beekeepers association. our subs are £22 a year. you get a monthly magazine. incsurance for two colonies. you can join any branch in devon. ours has an apiary near barnstaple. we have talks in the winter. social gatherings. teaching facilities.queen rearing(black bees from BIBBA). a monthly open day at the apiary and a regular session on tuesdays by the apiary teams, anyone is welcome. Albert Cannon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:52:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Stevens Subject: varroa screens and Apicure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On varroa screens – our design for the varroa screen and I expect Dadant’s and Brushy Mountains also can be used either on a bottom board or by itself. Certainly, if it is used on a bottom board, the board would have to be periodically cleaned. Our solution to this is to use a plastic tray or some heavy paper that can be pulled out from the back of the hive periodically and dumped into a pail for wax processing. The advantage of having the screen on the bottom board is that it allows you to monitor mite falls. If wax and mite debris are falling through the screen directly on to the ground, you have no way of checking the effectiveness of your treatment. The other problem that could develop from debris falling directly through the screen on to the ground is that you might not see chaulkbrood mummies. When we see them in front of the hive we usually move the hive stand to prevent futher contamination.On the other hand, if the screen is used without a bottom board, there is definitely less labor involved and probably some ventilation advantage. I am all for lots of ventilation as long as there is no direct draft on the bottom of the frames that limits egg laying in along the bottom bar. I am one of those Northern nuts that believes in the efficacy of a slatted rack, so on the advice of another Northern nut from the North of Engand that we met at Apimondia, we have changed the direction of the slats on our slatted racks so that they run parallel with the frames and won’t impede mitefall through a varroa screen. On Medhat’s concern about Apicure affecting brood during Spring treatment -The gel pack can sit directly on the top bars without any spacers or extraneous rings such as those needed by the Canadian mite boards because there are three layers of plastic between it and the frames. The Apicure pouch is opened only on the top. The research on brood reduction was done by Drs. Pettis and Shiminuki. They measured brood in treated and untreated hives before and after treatment. They did find that the treated hives did have a little less brood after the treatment. Thirty days later, they measured the brood again and found no difference, and it the end of the season they found no difference in honey production. They deem that Apicure’s effect on brood rearing in the Spring is insignificant. I suspect that most of us could shake a package of bees out of our Spring hives or make a split and not affect honey production at all – in fact we might even call it swarm control. On the Floridian who was told by his bee inspectors that the climate is too warm and brood rearing too continuous for Apicure to be effective – Last winter we took 500 hives to Florida on December 11 and treated them with the leftover Apicure packets from the Beltsville bee laboratory. The Florida bee inspectors inspected our hives on Febuary 1 and found only one mite. The next week we received calls from the other beekeepers in our orange grove who had treated with tactic and experienced first hand its cross resistance with apistan, requesting us to send some of that stuff down immediately. Lawrence Cutts maintains that it worked because our hives were broodless when they came down from the North. Maybe, but it did seem to hold off reinfestation from our neighbors for at least a month. Apicure was tested in the summer in Mexico in weather that I would expect would be at least equivalent to Florida and the results, which will be published this summer, were encouraging. Does Apicure kill mites in brood; that is the 64 dollar questions. The Argentinians have a beautiful full color brochure showing how their gel penetrates the cappings and kills the mite without affecting the larvae. The only explanation I have been given of how formic vapors kill mite and not bees is that it penetrates the thinner exoskeleton of the mite and can’t penetrate that of the bees. If that was true, wouldn’t it penetrate the undeveloped exoskeleton of the bee? There is no doubt that more research will have to be done to determine the most effective dosage for warmer climates and Jeff Pettis of Beltsville and Nick Calderone of Cornell have promised to work on this. They are also working on it in Italy which has a semi-tropical climate. The foremost Varroa researcher in Southern Europe, Dr. Norberto Milani seems to feel very differently about its potential than Mr. Cutts. He writes: “Dear Mr. Stevens Our Department has been carrying out research on the varroa mite control for several years. I was addressed to you by Dr. Pettis. We have carried out some field trials with the varroacide formulation developed by Dr. Pettis. We have found that this product is tolerated by the honey bee and effective against the varoa mite, but the dose should be increased up to 350-450 grams per colony to obtain maximum results under our conditions in Dadant-Blatt hives (Aren’t they larger than our Langstroths?). More test will be carried out during next year. I would like to know if you have developed a suitable packaging and if you plan to market this product in Europe. New varroacide products are needed since the varroa mite has developed resitance to coumaphos in Italy. It is increasingly difficult to control the mite in areas where brood is present all the year around.” Best Regards, Norberto Milani” If any other researchers would like to work on adapting the dosage of Apicure for particular climates, please contact me for free samples. Apicure is now registered in all states except California and Florida. We are still working on the California registration, but with the state bee inspectors working against us in Florida, we may withdraw the Florida application. Strange how the Florida officials were able to shepherd a registration through in record time for an organo-phosphate that is so dangerous you are not allowed to raise comb honey on a hive on which it has been used, but a registration for a miticide made entirely of food-approved ingredients sits unapproved for 5 months. The final bit of information on Apicure that I would like to impart is that we are applying to O.M.R.I. for certification as an organic pesticide. If we get the certification and it is by no means certain, it should allow those of us who use it exclusively to market organic honey which should give us a badly needed price advantage over imported honey Bob Stevens Apicure Inc., 518-692-9802 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:18:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Re-animation? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew wrote: > How is that bees can survive following hours frozen and submerged? Somehow > come to life with a quick warm wash? > > Bees which appear in EVERY aspect to be completely dead - I have noticed this for years on our lab sidewalks (back when we had a winter), and am sure beekeepers have been puzzled by this for centuries - Dr. Marshall Levin mused on this as a storage method for honey bee overwintering, but could never make any headway. He thought it reasonable that diapause in many insects could be induced in bees. Even in humans, quick cooling can sometimes be reversed after minutes (or hours ?), and Dr. Salt (?) in Canada wrote on the lepidopterous pupae which hang in the wind at 20 deg. below zero. I'm sure Dr. Levin would be pleased that someone is still trying to figure this one out. Go for it !! - John ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://198.22.133.109/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:08:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Treatment for Varroa In-Reply-To: <200002182247.RAA27749@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just opened a mailing from our Florida bee inspectors reguarding the section 18 use of Cumaphos. The last bullet item on the list is: SALE OF COMB HONEY FROM HIVES TREATED WITH COUMAPHOS IS PROHIBITED. (all caps in original). While I am still reading the fine print, this is bad news for me. If a hive sees coumaphos, then the Ross Round supers and cut comb supers may not be used on this hive. This is clearly stated in the letter from the EPA, a copy of which was included in the mailing. Since there is no "for x number of days" in the statment that means once the strips go in, the supers stay off. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:10:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: long duration and short duration formic acid treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/18/00 12:21:59 PM, morharn@KYND.NET writes: <> If formic acid depresses brood rearing, would it make more sense to apply Apistan in the spring and formic in the fall, since beekeepers want their bees to build up for honey flows at the start of the season? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:59:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/18/00 1:05:06 PM, JMitc1014@AOL.COM writes: <> I must correct an inaccuracy. The real Bt type is Bacillus thuringiensis var. aizawa. The application directions are 1 part Bt solution to 19 parts water, and make sure all parts of the comb are covered when treating comb for was moths, as the larva must eat it in order to be affected. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:03:11 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hale Organization: The "B"ee Spot Subject: Question on Verroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all We are new to the verroa story here in South Africa, but we are finding = a few intresting things out. Well lets say it has not been scientifically proved yet. Hives with = verroa seem to be unaffected by it IF it has got Chelifers or Bee = Scorpoins (Ellingsenius fulleri), a pseudoscorpion. They are harmless to = the bees but prey on mites. I have seen these Bee Scorpoins attacking = the Braula mite. So we are hoping and checking to se what is going to = happen. I have left a few hives untreated but there is a good population = of Bee Scorpions. One of the other things is that the infestation of the lesser Hive = Bettle is less if the Bee Scorpion is present. Aparantly the only other place where the Bee Scorpion is found is in = Asia, where Verroa originated from. If any one has any info on the Bee Scorpion please could they please = give me an e-mail. Regards=20 Mark >From not so dark Africa. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200002181720.MAA16463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The floors we are using are made in Germany and Sweden... > I cannot see how they would be much used if the cold caused > problems... The floors in question...(have the) centre portion > (approx 50%) of the floor is replaced by a mesh screen. Years back, we had some discussion on this and I went searching. We had a contributor from Norway, and he used something of this sort with no top entrance. P-O also had some good comments, as did David Eyre and others. To find some of that discussion, go to http://listserv.albany.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l and use (Norway OR Sweden) AND (winter AND bottom) in the 'Search for:' window. and activate the 'Substring Search' checkbox The output of the search will be listed, with short excerpts of the articles farther down the page and links to the full article. I personally hold down the 'Shift' key when I follow the links, so a new page opens for each and I do not lose my search. If you want to continue any of those threads, you can reply right from the archive page. If this is the first time you have tried posting from the BEE-L archives, I advise that you press 'Ctrl' + 'n' after you write your response (that makes a duplicate page) and before you push the 'send' button. On your first post from the page, you have to identify yourself, and the first time I did it I lost all my work on the response in the moving back and forth between pages. Subsequent efforts simply post without any problems. allen ----- See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions. BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/ or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 10:00:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roger Flanders Subject: Re: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Peter Watt's question about membership costs and benefits of local beekeeping associations: Annual membership dues in the Nebraska (USA) Beekeepers Association is $12. Members receive the association's monthly newsletter, the "Beeline," and the quarterly "Bee Tidings" published by the University of Nebraska Cooperative Extension Service. The association meets on the second Saturday of each month. Most meetings include an expert guest speaker. The association's activities include workshops, support of the University's beginner and "Master" beekeeping classes, and extensive involvement in the Nebraska State Fair. The association has recently established an endowment fund through the University of Nebraska Foundation "to help fund the beekeeping efforts in the Department of Entomology...(to) help ensure that honeybee research at UNL is continued for a long time...an expendable fund to help all students..." --Rog Flanders ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 12:35:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: long duration and short duration formic acid treatments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:01 PM 2/18/2000 EST, George Imirie wrote: >If Apicure has at long last secured the approval of EPA and the Drug >Administration >and the gel is designed by Shimanuki and other highly prominent bee >researchers, I >am not sure why you have a question. I have a question because the Apicure literature contains language indicating that the product might inhibit brood rearing in "early Spring" without specifically indicating the extent to which brood rearing might be affected, or specifying the "early Spring" condition(s) under which brood rearing might be affected. For example, if a particular time be meant, conditions shall differ by location. Such language might to cause a reasonable beekeeper to ask the question I asked. Design and approval of a product by competent and prominent persons does not excuse reasonable users from understanding the characteristics of that product. We may not fully appreciate the goals and tradoffs considered by the designer. It is possible that Dr. Shimanuki might be horrified by some innocent-seeming application of his design not specifically covered in the product literature. To ask reasonable questions demeans neither the designer nor the product. >Liquid Formic Acid or Mite-Away Pads are illegal in the U.S. and we already >have too many people exceeding the speed limit. >Our government agencies, universities, EAS and ABF Foundations spend tons of >money hiring scientists to research treatments for our bee problems. Too may >people, rather than giving money to these qualified researchers are spending >money >on anecdotal so-called cures conjured up by unqualified personnel. > >I have been in personal contact with Medhat concerning IPM, and of course the >use >of Formic Acid has been legal for quite some time in Canada, but that does >not give we Americans to right to use it. One can't drive 100 mph on I 95 >just because the >German Auto Bahn has no speed limit. I never suggested so much as consideration of the use of any illegal substance, but merely asked for an explanation of the functional relationship between the product legal in the USA and the chemically related product legal elsewhere. We US citizens (Canadians also abide in the Americas) should be able to ask the questions needed to understand the relationship between the tools available to us and those available elsewhere without incurring reproof. Suppression of such questions would not edify the beekeeping community. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 14:25:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: One more reason not to use Coumaphos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al told us of the label for Florida "SALE OF COMB HONEY FROM HIVES TREATED WITH COUMAPHOS IS PROHIBITED." (all caps in original). As Al reported, the way this is worded once a hive is treated with Coumaphos, comb honey can never be raised on this hive. As far as I know, this label first turned up in the Georgia renewal, then Washington (state), and now Florida. A couple of us are trying to track down the author to try to determine the intent. No success, so far. One state official, who shall remain unnamed, has gotten so far as to tell me "no one thought very much about this, and clearly there was no intent to forever ban the production of comb honey from a hive treated with Coumaphos." He suspects that the author intended something similar to the 14 day waiting period for extracting supers, but got the wording wrong. We all know that the Coumaphos formulation is hydrophobic, which presumably increases its affinity for wax. However, I have never seen any studies or reports implying that new beeswax can be contaminated by beeswax all ready in the hive. If we can determine that the wording is wrong, I would like to get it corrected for states yet to get their renewal. I understand that there is no chance of changing the label for any of the states that have all ready received their renewal. If anyone on the list knows a contact within EPA that could shed some light on the intent of this wording, please let me know. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:22:00 -0600 Reply-To: highplains@midmo.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Terry Reynolds Organization: High Plains Subject: converting from deep langstroths to medium long hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm only a second year beekeeper with three hives comprised of two deep brood boxes and medium honey supers. I have found that I am so intimidated by "dismantling" the bee hive that I do not tend to the brood nest as I should. I think the long hive system will be of benefit in this respect. Can anyone offer any suggestions on how to convert from my deep Langstroth brood boxes over to the medium depth long hive body? The long hive body plan that I am going to use has an attached bottom (as in a casket box) and is designed to hold the standard-type frames (ABJ January 2000 Dr. Bob Horr). I was already planning to do splits in the spring, but can't quite work through the process of how to do this conversion. I have looked in the archives but don't find this specific conversion addressed. I think there was mention of it a few months ago on this list but at that time I wasn't even considering doing this. I would appreciate any ideas you could offer. Patty Reynolds Stover, MO (central missouri) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:53:39 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Beekeeping Association Subscriptions. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter, I am a member of the National Administration Committee for the SPMF (Synidicat des Producteurs de Miel de France) and V.P.for the Centre Region of France. The charge for membership is approx. 1200 FF/year Members are beekeepers who depend on Beekeeping as a major part of their income. The Union is very active in promoting honey, protecting against honey adulteration, working on European/Codex matters, trying to protect bees and beekeeping from constant pesticide application( present day problem-Imidaclopride as found in the formulation "Gaucho" produced by Bayer),European funding and many things that occupy a union. It is relatively expensive to be a member but real work requires time,effort and people- that requires money! (Information about the above may easily be viewed by logging on to "Apiservices" on the net.) The Union produces a bulletin once every 2 months for its members. The members are grouped on a Regional basis, each having its own manner and activities. There is also a County network of associations that are there primarily to discuss Bee hygiene matters - Groupement Défence Sanitaire Apicole costing approx 70 FF/year. Difficult to cut short the description of a relatively complex organisation- hope the info. is useful Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:29:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Treatments In-Reply-To: <200002190500.AAA07314@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Recently I said: some of the treatments mentioned on this list: they're illegal. Mike Rowbottom countered: Legal/illegal varies from Country to Country; I believe this is an International list, so subscribers, please treat scattergun comments on 'legality' with care. Response: I wonder what people think when they're using a treatment that's legal in their country and banned elsewhere. Does that mean it's safe in their country and not in others? Wouldn't it be wise to err on the side of caution? I also said: if you inadvertently contaminate the honey, you will be liable for the harm you cause I would add: This statement goes even if you are using an approved substance and you use it incorrectly. I have tried to make this point several times: beekeepers the world over are using chemicals in unacceptable ways and if they "shoot themselves in the foot" who is going to go to bat for them? I have watched commercial beekeepers take off honey with carbolic acid decades after this technique was condemned by the government. In fact, I worked at a beekeepers supply company where we sold chlordane, carbolic acid, and EDB in unmarked containers. When people start to gripe about "too much control" I think about the "good old days" when people drove around with unmarked containers of acid on their trucks. Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 10:07:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Formic Acid Gel Packs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Friends, There has been some discussion here recently on Formic Acid. I heard (from one of the bee supply companies) that the formic acid gel packs were not really reliable yet. The package is subject to leaking and the acid will diffuse at different rates, depending on temperature. If this is so, I believe the packaging issue can be resolved quite easily by improvement in the manufacturing process. Now, what about the differing rates of diffusion? I live in Florida. The heat (and humidity?) might really cause a problem compared with a cooler climate. Does anyone here have experience with the new gel packs? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: "long" hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patty, said "I'm only a second year beekeeper with three hives comprised of two deep brood boxes and medium honey supers. I have found that I am so intimidated by "dismantling" the bee hive that I do not tend to the brood nest as I should. I think the long hive system will be of benefit in this respect." Patty, I, for one, would hate to see you embark on using the long hive described. I once saw one of these hives in France, where a beekeeper kept it as a novelty. They have also been the subject of much experimental work in the US, for just the reason you mention. However, the fact that they have not caught on is because they just don't work very well! This type of hive is best left to the more expert beekeeper who is willing to constantly fool with the bees to get them to occupy the entire "long" hive. When wild bee nests are examined, they always are built up and down, as bees are very reluctant to move sideways. I once saw comb from a feral hive in a barn that had to extend 12 feet in length, but only about 3 feet in width! Yet the bees could have easily built it 10 or more feet wide. However, I can certainly understand your intimidation as a deep is very heavy to move, and in mid summer is certainly "full" of bees! Perhaps the following will help you enjoy your bees more: * You may be inspecting your bees too often. Every time you inspect the bees you disturb their somewhat fragile organization and communication systems and they take several days to recover. Inspections too often reduce the honey crop and mean that one has to contend with upset bees more than necessary. Try the following schedule: * When the dandelions bloom, look at the brood nest. Do this by taking out one of the end combs and setting it aside. Move the next comb into its place (don't pick it up to look at it). Pick up the third comb. See brood in a nice pattern? If yes, put the comb back in its place, move the other comb back into its place, and put the end comb back in. You are done! If the brood pattern wasn't nice, look at the following comb. If that is nice, you are done. Refer to any one of the general books on beekeeping to see pictures of what a "nice" brood pattern should look like. It is very unlikely that you will see a brood nest that requires intervention. If you think you do, contact a member of your local bee club and ask them to come over and look at it with you. Take my word for it, they will be glad to do so! * Every month thereafter, do the same. A quick look for eggs and/or larvae. When you see them, put the frame(s) back, and you are done! * When you put on supers (when the dandelions bloom), take them off for extraction, medicate, and put on mouse guards, you do not need to disturb the brood nest. In fact, it is best if you do not! * Change from using deeps for a brood nest to using mediums. Three mediums are roughly the equivalent of two deeps. A medium full of honey weighs about 55 pounds. A deep weighs about 80 pounds. In addition, there are fewer bees in a medium than in a deep, so less intimidation. I suggest you do this in two stages. This year, when the dandelions bloom take away the bottom deep. The bees will be mostly in the upper hive body, and the bottom will be mostly empty. Carry it a dozen or so feet away, put a cover on, be certain the bees inside have a way out, and leave it. Most of the bees will go back to where the other deep is all by themselves. Two or three days later, look in the hive body you carried away. There will probably be very few bees. If there is some brood, put it back in the other deep, taking out a frame with no brood (be certain you leave the hive at the original location with at least two frames filled with sealed honey). Hopefully, the queen will not be in the body you carried away. If she is, carefully carry the frame she is on back to the original location and put it in the remaining hive body. Put two extracting supers on top of the hive body at the original location, the bees will use these to expand their brood nest. Sell or trade your now empty hive body you set aside; or use it to make a new hive. Have the bees draw new extracting frames. Overwinter with the deep on the bottom and two mediums above. In the spring of 2001, the deep on the bottom will be empty, move it aside and, again, add one extracting super for the final expansion of the brood nest into three mediums. Once you have a couple of years under your belt of really enjoying your bees, and not being intimidated, you can get into more specialized areas of beekeeping, that require more manipulation. These areas, such as production of comb honey, collecting pollen, and even queen production, will greatly increase your satisfaction and expertise. I think a key to it will be changing your hive set up to a more manageable system of using mediums as your brood nest. Good luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:37:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Flax (Linseed) as a source of nectar/pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 I have trawled the archives for flax and Linseed without success as far as their value as a source of nectar or pollen is concerned. Dr F N Howes in his book 'Plants and Beekeeping' says that while bees visit the plants 'it is doubtful whether they are ever important sources of nectar', but he is silent on the value as a pollen source. Does anybody have information about the value of this plant to bees? Linum usitatissimum to give the formal name Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:12:50 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Treatments In-Reply-To: <200002201436.JAA18275@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200002201436.JAA18275@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst writes >Recently I said: >some of the treatments mentioned on this list: they're illegal. > >Mike Rowbottom countered: >Legal/illegal varies from Country to Country; I believe this is an >International list, so subscribers, please treat scattergun comments >on 'legality' with care. > >Response: >I wonder what people think when they're using a treatment that's >legal in their country and banned elsewhere. Does that mean it's safe >in their country and not in others? Wouldn't it be wise to err on the >side of caution? This is a sound principle, but there is a need for the definers of legality to justify their position. In the case of relatively modern chemicals, and organo-phospates come readily to mind, considerable caution is in order. There is initially little experience of the effects on human health, and such evidence needs to be established, verified and understood before general use is sanctioned. On the other hand, the substances that Bill Truesdell was discussing have all been in use for long periods in foodstuffs, and are not known to be any threat to human health, especially at the low levels in which they will appear in honey. In this case a ban on their use appears to me to be crossing from 'reasonable caution' to 'the Nanny state', in which legislators set such low levels of risk that their credibility is undermined. Incidentally I apologise for the use of the word 'scattergun'. This added nothing to the point and was capable of causing unnecessary irritation. > >I also said: >if you inadvertently contaminate the honey, you will be liable for >the harm you cause I tried to make clear that this is precisely the UK position with the unlicenced 'non-medicinal curative substances'. Use non-licensed veterinary medicines at your peril. Regards, -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:47:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Gaucho and effects on Honeybee populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would be most grateful if anybody has any info. on bee colonies before, during and after field contact with the molecule IMIDACLOPRIDE - as found in the systemic seed treatment product "Gaucho"(Bayer). If you are aware that the product is being used in your area, then please note the strength of the hives before, during and after contact with the molecule- it is a seed treatment, but the molecule appears to present itself in areas of the plant that it was not "designed" for (the molecule that is!). Here in France the product has been banned on Sunflower seed for the 2nd year running (much to Bayer's chagrin), and in Holland it has been banned totally for use in field conditions. It would also be very useful to know under what conditions the authorities have or intend to let this product on to the market, ie.Stated period of half life in soil(no.of days), if any tests have been performed independently on toxic effects on honey bees(not info. supplied by Bayer!),Carry over onto other crops that are planted the following year, if plants that are on the sides of the fields become contaminated through soil passage of the molecule. Just a few questions! Oh by the way, keep a keen eye out for Acute Paralysis Virus(apv)-according to Bayer that's what is killing our hives, plus not knowing how to treat against V.j. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:23:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEEKEEPING ASSOCIATION SUBSCRIPTIONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Dorchester & Weymouth BKA annual subscription is £17, reduced to £15 if you pay by the end of the year. For this you get indirect membership of the Dorset BKA and the British BKA; four issues of "Honeycraft" the County magazine a year; BBKA News 5 times a year; public liability insurance; Bee Disease Insurance for your first 2 hives (pay extra for more); a newsletter and other circulars whenever the Secretary has enough to get best value for the postage stamp (about once a month); a "bee buddy" if you need one; loan of the extractor; summer apiary meetings; winter talks, quizzes and social gatherings; bulk purchase of honey jars, Bayvarol/apistan, foundation; shows; beer and skittles; representation at County and National level; an annual equipment auction; helping hands in time of need and all round good friendship and fellowship. Apart from the financial side, with any organisation such as this the more you put in the more you get out. This seems such fantastic value that perhaps we ought to put our subs up. Chris Slade, Chairman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:33:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Rollins Subject: Re: SPRING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The dandelions are in bloom here, as well as pear and plum trees. All trees; except the pecans, the true signal that frost is gone, are ready to burst open. Spring is unofficially here. I can already taste fresh dewberry honey, actually, it is last years I can taste now. Joe Rollins SW Mississippi, USA W091- N31 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Human problems In-Reply-To: <200002210044.TAA29556@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a reminder, I went out and checked one of my yards today. The "rednecks" had been in it and made a mess. Three hives had been knocked over using fallen pine branches and then an attempt was made to set the hives on fire! The fire must have driven the bees out and run off the vandals as the fire went out before destroying all of the equipment. Several frames were burned and most of the boxes were broken. One swarm of bees in the top of oak tree, but out of reach. The yard was out of sight and hard to get at, past a locked gate and a way down a dirt road. Having found a "live" shot-gun shell near by, the yard may have been found by "hunters". They may have crossed the nearby river and walked up. When visiting out yards use caution! I would have hated to think what could have happened if I had come around the corner while this was in progress! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 20:28:32 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whether something is legal or illegal in one country or another is one of the paradoxes of the 'global village.' A honey was recently approved as a medicine in Australia based on research done in New Zealand. In NZ it is illegal to make therapeutic claims for our scientifically proven honeys, yet they can in Australia because they have a much more restrictive and costly system. A paradox I know, but true. Another paradox. In the EU there is a great deal of debate taking place over the fact that Germany has 22,000 untested drugs on the market as medicines. (That's right, twenty two thousand untested pharmaceutical drugs approved for use!!!!) Ron Law Mike Rowbottom wrote: > In message <200002201436.JAA18275@listserv.albany.edu>, Peter Borst > writes > >Recently I said: > >some of the treatments mentioned on this list: they're illegal. > > > >Mike Rowbottom countered: > >Legal/illegal varies from Country to Country; I believe this is an > >International list, so subscribers, please treat scattergun comments > >on 'legality' with care. > > > >Response: > >I wonder what people think when they're using a treatment that's > >legal in their country and banned elsewhere. Does that mean it's safe > >in their country and not in others? Wouldn't it be wise to err on the > >side of caution? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 13:26:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: more on bt crops and bees Comments: cc: tmozer@webtv.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tightened Biotech Crop Regs Urged http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20000217/pl/biotech_crops_1.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:38:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: thymol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Quote- with some editing: get a 100 gram bottle of thymol. Add 1/2 ounce > of menthol and 1/2 ounce of champhor. > Fill the bottle with Eucaliptus oil. Let it stand for a day in the sun > until all is disolved. buy a pack or two of cheap (10 for a buck)..... I see several problems with the homemade formulation of thymol in this post. Thymol, like many other natural product acaricides, is not tremendously selective, that is to say that the dose which kills bees is not much higher than the dose which kills bees. Laboratory studies performed in Canada indicate that thymol and formic acid are only 5-10 times more toxic to mites than bees- compared to fluvalinate which is thousands of times more toxic to mites. TAKE HOME MESSAGE- Before I would use any thymol formulation I would: 1) make sure it is registered for use in my area and 2) make sure the formulation has been evaluated in multiple scientific studies. Guessing that a soaking sponges in a thymol/essential oil blend 'sort of kind of sounds similar to a method used by a researcher' is not good enough- the amount evaporating into the colony may not be comparable- and because of the low selectivity- being off can mean the difference between adequate mite control and bee death. > This treatment was developed by Nick Calderone sp? when he worked at > Beltsville. According to his talk on the subject he had somewhere around > 99% kill rate. The actual formulation of his was 75% Thymol, 16% > Eucaliptus, 4.5% Campher, and 4.5% Menthol. Thymol-based treatments, like formic acid, provide variable, and often marginal control. The post cites work by Dr. Calderone that resulted >95% varroa control. Further studies by Dr. Calderone with thymol formulations have yielded < 70% control. The reasons for the variability are likely many, but do not seem to be easily dealt with. Thymol is not a cure all, but it will likely will play a role in a integrated strategy. Regards Adony ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 19:28:50 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Treatments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Borst" > Recently I said: > some of the treatments mentioned on this list: they're illegal. > > Mike Rowbottom countered: > Legal/illegal varies from Country to Country; I believe this is an > International list, so subscribers, please treat scattergun comments > on 'legality' with care. > > Response: > I wonder what people think when they're using a treatment that's > legal in their country and banned elsewhere. Does that mean it's safe > in their country and not in others? > There is an important difference between "banned" and "not approved". John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru - The Welsh Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:51:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: M14DRM@AOL.COM Subject: Subscriptions - Devon Beekeepers Association Comments: cc: chris@seejayyou.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Chris Utting, our Gen Secretary, has asked me to supply the following info. The DBKA sub is £22 p a. This is broken down as follows:- 10 issues of BEEKEEPING magazine 4.20 BBKA capitation fee 7.50 DBKA capitation fee 3.50 BDI insce for 2 hives 1.00 Retained for Branch own resources 5.80 In addition, many members covenant their subs. Any tax refunds go to their branches. We got £1909 for tax year 1998/99. Joint members pay £9.70 pa, and associates pay £2.20 pa. There are many benefits, but each branch is slightly different. Apart from automatic cover for every member of the BBKA public liability and product liability insce, in Tavistock we have six winter meetings with guest speakers, every saturday (virtually) between mid April and end Sept,there is a branch apiary meeeting where Queen rearing and gneral Beekeeping is done. New members gain valuable experience. All DBKA members can attend the County AGM, which is linked to Presidents day where we have outside speakers. This costs members nothing. Discounts are given to all members for Seale Weekend every two years. In between years is a Buckfast Bee Day which is also subsidised. In Tavistock, books and videos are available at no cost. All in all pretty good value for money!! Regards David Milford Hon Treasurer DBKA