From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 10:28:49 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06293 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01976 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141531.KAA01976@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:31:39 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0003E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 86633 Lines: 1812 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:22 -0800 Reply-To: Ian_Farber@bc.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Farber Subject: Re: bear fence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 3/28/00 4:11:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, tceisele@MTU.EDU > writes: > > > > > 2. The animal should be well grounded. If the ground is moist, there > > will be no problem. If the ground is dry and sandy, then you can > > do something like putting metal chicken wire flat on the ground, so that > > the animal will be standing on it when it touches the "hot" wire > Rock salt will increase soil conductivity hold moisture and keep the weeds > and grass down spread some on the ground under the wires and back a couple > feet. Old sheet metal roofing material is an excellent grounding material and usually cheap, too.. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Petofi Subject: Re: Bees rolling in wood chips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed my bees lighting on places on my pines trees and fallen trees left by loggers where the resin is oozing out. Could the rolling bees have been collecting some tiny amounts of resin from the chips and sawdust for their propolis? Elizabeth Petofi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:52:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Bees rolling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I have seen bees rolling in fine dry dust but it was the middle of summer. I suspect they may be trying to dislodge Acarine (tracheal mites) or varroa. Try capturing a few of the bees and examining them microscopically! Regards Dave ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:24:15 -0500 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Bees rolling in wood chips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think not, l have seen my bees rolling in wood chips long before the varroa mites. I still have no idea what they were doing. Any answers out there?Also wondering, Peter bees were rolling in wood chips Reminded me of how birds will roll and fluff around in dirt. Well, birds roll in dirt in an attempt to dislodge mites. Were it not the season where bees will collect anything that resembles pollen, I would wonder. I'm wondering anyway. Could it be? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 21:21:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Attila31@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees rolling in wood chips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What kind of wood did you cut? Attila ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Job Opportunity... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit State Farm Auto Insurance is filming a commercial that includes someone dealing with honey bees. They will be filming in mid- to late May. They need men and women who meet the following 2 requirements: You MUST have State Farm Auto Insurance and be in good standing with the company; and, you must be able to handle bees without protective gear. The commercial pays Screen Actor's Guild scale ($469.00) plus residuals. If you meet these requirements and are interested contact: Pamela Kaplan at 707.933.9540, or 415.865.0739 She is in California so consider the time you call. You will call, leave your name and number, and she will return your call. Please don't call or email me regarding this, as I know no more than what is listed here. Good luck, future actor people. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine 1-800-289-7668 x3214 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:35:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: smaller bees On page 14 of the Varroa Mite Handbook it states on adult bees the mite must squeeze between the OVERLAPPING segments in order to reach,and finnally cut through, the thin membrane and draw its fill. Question: If the bee were smaller and the bees were in a winter cluster with no brood and had allready disposed of the drones for winter wouldn't smaller bees be a method of control? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Comprehensive review of mite biology MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if readers of this list are aware of the review of literature relating to bee mites, written by Diana Sammataro, et.al., and published in a recent issue of the Annual Review of Entomology (Annu. Rev. Entomol. 2000. 45:519-548). This is an extremely comprehensive article, and I recommend it highly to anyone wishing to be informed of the latest information on these pests of the honey bee. It can be accessed in its entirety at: http://ento.AnnualReviews.org/cgi/content/full/45/1/519#TB1EN4520 Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:52:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: swarming Many beekeeping experts have stated in text that when the number of bees per hive frame grows to a certain number a hive will swarm every time. question: If the above is true as i believe it is then wouldn't a smaller bee be able to put more bees to the frame and maybe be a method of swarm control? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: cell size If research has shown us that a queen will lay a worker egg in a cell larger than produced in a feral colony and we have a general idea of the size she will lay in without laying a drone egg. Question: Has any research been done on how small a cell she will lay in before she refuses to lay and would the workers produced be indeed smaller? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:49:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: cell size In-Reply-To: <200003291624.LAA21357@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Question: Has any research been done on how small a cell she will lay in > before she refuses to lay and would the workers produced be indeed smaller? I'm not going to answer this question, but go the other way -- bigger, first. I had always thought that it did not matter how big the cell was -- within reason -- as long as it was large enough to contain the larva and then pupa without constraining it. I know that Christine Peng raised bees without using comb *at all* for a lab project. I never did subscribe to the idea that bigger cells beyond natural size would make bigger bees. If the cell is big enough, it is big enough. Beyond that, there get to be fewer cells on a comb surface, and the bees cannot cover them as well as if they were more compact, and maybe the temperature in each cell might be a little less, too. Recent non-mainstream research is showing that maybe big cells allow room for varroa to do their dirty work in a way they could not in a smaller cell. I have guessed that too small a cell could have the same effect that wrapping a girl child's feet did in China in the past -- restricted development, but not that increasing space could somehow cause the larva to expand beyond the size that genetics and nutrition determine. I don't know how small is too small. I should think the bees would know, so maybe we should be asking them. Of course, they may have some problems showing their true sizes, since we mix them all together in one yard and they cross breed. It may be much like a toy poodle trying to have pups from an Irish Wolfhound. I am wondering if James Satterfield is following all this, because he is in a natural position to tell us all how big a cell should be. He has a group of friends all over that raise their bees on 100% natural comb on the top bar hives. I'd like to get a non official survey of what the *natural* cell size is in bees around America and the world that are not on foundation. The (best) way is to measure across ten contiguous cells with a metric ruler (from flat sides to flat side) and divide that measure by ten to get the size of an average cell in mm. It is also a good idea to measure in several places on the comb and at several angles to get an average. Moreover only the actual brood comb is of interest. The edges and honey areas will have larger cells. The range of sizes experienced on one comb is of interest, because it is the theory of some that the cell size is critical. I think, frankly that it is not, and that the same bees will build cells in a range of sizes and shapes on the same comb -- and be perfectly happy. allen --- "If I make a living off it, that's great--but I come from a culture where you're valued not so much by what you acquire but by what you give away," -- Larry Wall (the inventor of Perl) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Re: Bees rolling in wood chips Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To answer Attila's question: The wood chips were of maple, poplar, hornbeam, and a little birch and beech, all hardwoods. There were no resinous softwood chips in the pile. Bill Morong At 09:21 PM 3/28/2000 EST, you wrote: >What kind of wood did you cut? Attila > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the questions about bees rolling in sawdust reminded me of other things they do. If you live on or near an organic farm and they keep animals, your bees have probably visited the manure piles and also any puddles left by the cows and horses. If you have a dog or cat, your bees may have visited their droppings. A search of the list also revealed that manure makes a good smoker fuel when mixed with saw dust. Fortunately, non of this disqualifies the honey from being organic. In fact, it is reeeeal organic :) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:43:15 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ivan McGill Subject: Re: bear fence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here I use 6 volt used tractor or truck batteries. The logging trucks change all 4 batteries at the same time so if are any good we get them for about $35. That is if you use 6 volt fencers. 12 volt go for about the same price. I get up to 2 months on a battery. One trick we also use is to hang sardine cans on the wire, one on either side of the fence or on the treed side. Put about 5 holes in one end, 1 right through in the middle to hang on the hot with wire, holes up so all the juice stays in the can. I have used this every year and not one got through (yet), lots of grass flattened. We also have lots of bears here! Ivan >Hello: > >I am setting up my electric bear fence. =20 > >What voltage do I need to keep bears out? Bear populations are at = >record levels here in Minnesota, so a fence is a necessity. > >Any advice? > >Thanks, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:15:44 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, After a lifetime of keeping bees i have yet to see a bee on a pile of dung. Maybe i will before i die to reinforce your statement. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:10:41 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > I know that Christine Peng raised bees without using > comb *at all* for a lab project. > How did Christine determine the proper amount of be bread etc.? Reseachers say royal jelly is a factor even in workers. Would small cells require less royal jelly? Would a queen be smaller if you removed part of the royal jelly or is it only genetics which control size? > I never did subscribe to the idea that bigger cells beyond natural size would > make bigger bees. I do subscribe to the idea but we can agree to disagree. I believe but can't prove that they increase or decrease nutrician according to cell size using a queen as a example. Maybe a reseacher will help a couple of beekeepers out! Recent non-mainstream research is showing that maybe big > cells allow room for varroa to do their dirty work in a way they could not in a > smaller cell. i wish i had a answer to this question. My gut feeling is if there are not enough Drone cells for Varroa they reproduce in worker cells and most likely even in the vary smallest of cells. As a control i believe the winter cluster without brood and drones would be the most effective time for the real value of smaller bees to be proven. > >Thanks for the info on measuring cell size! To keep the discussion simple i chose to list the bees into three catagories: small,average and bigger thinking beekeepers would give their opinions and the reseachers would provide the exact smallest and largest cell size by the end of the discussion. In talking to Dr. Shiminuki i have to ask. OK now explain in terms a beekeeper can understand. Great post as usual Allen! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:23:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: cell size In-Reply-To: <200003291655.LAA22763@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > The (best) way is to measure across ten contiguous cells with a metric ruler > (from flat sides to flat side) and divide that measure by ten to get the size > of > an average cell in mm. More on this at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/morecell.htm -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:32:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: cell size In-Reply-To: <200003291817.NAA25581@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How did Christine determine the proper amount of be bread etc.? > Researchers say royal jelly is a factor even in workers. Would small > cells require less royal jelly? I don't know about workers, but I do know that if you want good queens, one of the things you look for in a cell is more than enough royal jelly. The JayZee BeeZee cups are good that way, because you can see if the queen ran out of food before pupating or not. Perhaps the nurses provide only just enough food to the worker brood -- dunno, but I know they do overfeed queens. My assumption has always been that the amount of feed given has nothing to do with the cell at all, but is dependant on the number of nurses, the amount of brood, and the nutritional state of the colony.. > Would a queen be smaller if you removed > part of the royal jelly or is it only genetics which control size? Anything is smaller if you don't feed it enough when it is growing. The timetable is the same, as are other factors, I should think, regardless of the container size. Does a baby get bigger in a bigger crib? > >Thanks for the info on measuring cell size! To keep the discussion > simple I chose to list the bees into three categories: small, average > and bigger thinking beekeepers would give their opinions and the > researchers would provide the exact smallest and largest cell size by > the end of the discussion. FWIW, I have to thank Dee for a lot of the ideas on cell measurement, although I have to say that I have read her discussion of rhombic measurement ten times and it still does not make sense to me. I'll stick with linear measure, thanks. And also FWIW, I have recently mentioned here -- and in my diary at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ -- that Pierco plastic frames have smaller cells than I have encountered elsewhere: 5.25 mm rather than the 5.45 which I have seen in the other samples I have checked lately. I don't know about their sheet foundation. allen ----- Access over ten years of bee discussions. Search BEE-L and sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:22:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As the comb get older the cell size gets progressively smaller. I have seen some very old black comb and the queen seems to lay in it although queens do prefer new comb. I don't see how this will be of much help with varroa. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 15:33:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bob harrison wrote: > After a lifetime of keeping bees i have yet to see a bee on a pile of > dung. http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html I got the info by searching the BeeL archives which is a great place to confirm inaccuracies and prejudices. It is the link above. Just type in manure and you will be suprised what comes out. There were a bunch of posts about this in the past including bees frequenting dog kennels. Most thought it was because of minerals in the urine that came with the manure. So bees have been seen by beekeepers in manure. But it could be the other way around... Bill Truesdell Bath...which is probably appropriate after all this talk about manure.. Maine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:51:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Winter Behavior and Moisture Release MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is your location? Very few beekeepers close entrances to keep bees warm. Bee research has shown the value of good ventilation to remove the evil of dampness. An UPPER entrance usually cut in the front edge of the inner cover is invaluable in releasing warm damp air from bee breath is used by many experienced beekeepers. Bees don't need a HEATED house like you and I. They are genetically "trained" to cluster together for warmth, and have been doing this for eons in Siberia, Alaska, and Northern Canada quite successfully. What are you trying to accomplish? George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:21:31 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry Goudie wrote: I don't see how this will be of much help with varroa. Thirty years ago i thought the biggest problem in North America would be the African bee at the start of a new century! Boy was i wrong! I hate the fact that we are trying every chemical known to us to try to stop Varroa. Chemicals are a solution for now but is there a simpler solution we are not seeing. Many researchers concide that varroa may prove unstopable in the long run. Formic acid has been the lifesaver in other countries but legally not for use in U.S. till fall and then only in gell. All those beekeepers which used coumaphos last year in Florida and Georgia are being sent notices they can't sell comb honey produced over those hives that were treated with coumaphos. What if you only business was comb honey. What other surprises are in store! No honey can be sold over a hive treated with fluvalinate or formic acid. How can any person say for sure with chemical use of any kind. Our research people KNOW what i am talking about and are trying to come up with screens for bottom boards and IPM for hives. Twenty years and no resistance to formic acid but with 65% to 85% doses. Will the gell at a much less dose cause a super varroa mite resistant to all levels of formic acid. Seems to me a lot of unknowns in beekeeping at this time. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:34:11 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > bob harrison wrote: > > After a lifetime of keeping bees i have yet to see a bee on a pile of > > dung. > > http://listserv.albany.edu/archives/bee-l.html > > I got the info by searching the BeeL archives which is a great place to > confirm inaccuracies and prejudices. I think the bee-l archives are interesting but do not confirm inaccuracies and prejudices. Simply informed discussion of beekeeping issues. Opinions among beekeepers are each different. Ask each beekeeper a question and no two answers alike. I still live on a farm with a herd of livestock and have never seen a bee on a dung pile. Maybe the little buggers do and run when they see me comming or fly off. i am going to start watching and you will be the first to know if i see a bee on a dung pile! Thanks for reply! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:40:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We read from time to time that bees can be used as mineral prospectors, mine detectors etc., presumably from analysis of traces of chemical contaminants brought into the hive in nectar or pollen. If they bring the rare and exotic into the hive, how much more so they must bring in commonplace pollutants. I am thinking of those derived from combustion of fossil fuels. I keep my bees in various locations in West Dorset, which is about as rural as you can get in England. I know that lichens are very sensitive pollution indicators; without getting the books out, roughly the very hairy lichens won't grow within half a mile of a smoking chimney whereas the crusty ones will grow within a couple of feet of the exhaust pipe of your car, with a precisely graduated range in between. In at least three of my apiaries no agricultural chemical has been applied nearby for as long as anyone can remember. Looking at the lichens on the trees near my bees, the only unpolluted site is tucked away in a hollow on an unsprayed/unfertilised smallholding on top of a hill a mile from the village. I have to walk about 300 yards to reach it. I can (and do) get to the rest of my sites by car and the air is polluted. If organic equals unpolluted can anybody really produce organic honey in commercial quantities? Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:24:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bruce Murphy Subject: Top Hive Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I put a new top Hive feeder on a hive last week and can't seem to get = the little gal's to find the sweet stuff in the top. I was pretty messy = adding the sugar water so that they would hopefully follow it's trail up = to the source. But it's been over a week and still no usage. Any ideas? Bruce Murphy Murphy Ranch Olympia, WA. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 00:05:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The archives show 172 posts mentioning formic acid and honey. Some call formic a naturally occurring substance, which makes the case that it is an organic treatment. Others denouce it as just another chemical in our hives polluting our natural product (honey). My question: can anyone give a definitive answer as to whether formic acid can be considered an "organic" treatment for varroa because it is a naturally occuring substance? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 23:08:00 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Top Hive Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > But it's been over a week and still no usage. Any ideas? What have your temperatures been? This makes a big difference in getting them started. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:45:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic In-Reply-To: <200003300514.AAA19885@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 > My question: can anyone give a definitive answer as to whether formic acid >can be considered an "organic" treatment for varroa because it is a >naturally occuring substance? I don't wish to get deeply into this as it was done to death a long time ago in a debate that became increasingly acrimonious. However. Formic acid does occur in nature but most of that sold is a synthetic copy. Chemically the same, but synthetic nonetheless. You could consider it the equivalent of organic, but it is not actually organic. Flumethrin and fluvalinate are synthetic pyrethroids. Synthetic copies (or slight adaptations) of chemicals found in the foliage of members of the chrysanthemum family as part of their natural pest control system. If synthetic Formic is to be organic why not synthetic pyrethroids? Their original source is just as organic. (plus they do not rot your box and frame nails) The truth is that 'organic' means different things to different people, and organic in relation to agriculture (including beekeeping) has entirely different connotations from organic in chemistry for example. The organic movement is a lifestyle movement. The people who want to eat organic food (including honey) are part of a market trend whereby they will pay extra for food produced under a certain regime, which THEY (or their nominees) dictate. In the UK this is regulated by the Soil Association, but there are equivalent bodies in almost all countries where this movement, or agriculture trying to exploit it, is found. It is NOT a measure of purity or freedom from pollutants or chemicals. It IS a measure of how the crop was produced and harvested, and that the standards under which it was done comply with the lifestyle requirements of the consumer purchasing the product, thus (to their mind) reducing the risk that it may be contaminated. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 03:51:53 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I after 172 posts you can't make up your mind about organic or synthetic i am not sure my input will help. I don't want to repeat facts allready stated in Bee-L so here are a couple facts from Encyclopedia Britanica. Formic acid occurs naturally in animal secretions and muscle. It may be prepared synthetically by the oxidation of methyl alcohol and of formaldehyde. Formic acid is employed in the dyeing and tannin industries. As with all things in life a small amount is ok but a large amount could be bad for you. One of the largest class action lawsuits in U.S. was against a tannery and its use of formic acid. Basis for John Travolta movie and i believe the movie name is Civil Action but its a video stores and if you ask i am sure they can help. We all agree that the formic acid used to rid our hives of mites in dangerous. My opinion is Formic acid if applied correctly could be the best answer to the mite problem now but i would like to see the chemicals removed from our hives. Formic acid is the chemical of choice by our bee experts. In the U.S. we were to see the gell on the market last fall. Then this spring! Now next fall! Whats the delay? I have heard many stories about label and package problems but lets hear from the maker of apicure. Bob Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:54:54 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: Re: Organic Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: > If you live on or near an organic farm and they keep animals, your bees have probably visited the manure piles Bob Harrison wrote: > I still live on a farm with a herd of livestock and have never seen a bee on a dung pile. in answer to Bob Harrisson: To increase the chance to encounter a bee visiting manure, set up the lookout preferably at manure from animals that haven't been dewormed yet, or otherwise treated against insects, ticks... Some antiparasitic molecules are rejected in manure, the ivermectine family among others. They disrupt the reproductive cycle of some flies and other insects that develop in dung (sorry, no scientific publication cited, but I can find some if requested). I'd expect our favorite insect to avoid such "contaminated" manure. Maybe that's why Bill Truesdell has been more fortunate than you? Another suggestion would be to check the eyesight. ;-) Vanessa de Behr Belgium (Europe) Week days cattle vet, Sundays beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:55:51 +1200 Reply-To: "bryan@honeynz.co.nz" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bryan Clements Organization: Waikato Honey Products Ltd. Subject: Re: bear fence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marks request was >I am setting up my electric bear fence. =20 >What voltage do I need to keep bears out? Bear populations are at = >record levels here in Minnesota, so a fence is a necessity. >Any advice? I read with interest the problems you have with bears and while my hives will never see a bear, I do have some home grown guys down the road from me that have made it big in the electric fence business. One of their people modestly supplied the following and you can find more about the Gallagher Group and their shocking ways on www.gallagher.co.nz Regards Bryan Clements There are a variety of fence designs regarding bears. Experience in Canada has shown that bears confronted with a five wire HT wire fence of five wires are repelled very well indeed. The five wires are an earth return system. The first wire from the bottom is live and the next earth etc. Billy or Beatrice the bear now create their own circuit between the wires and any climbing activity results in a most memorable shock. The bottom wire being alive prevents the crawling bears. The wire spacings are , starting at the bottom, 150mm, 150mm, 150mm, 200mm,250mm. Insulation is important and there are products such as "Insultimber" available to help the beekeeper erect a fence in quick time. There are a variety of Power Fence units available and always try to purchase the one that delivers the most energy to the fence. Ask your supply store to explain the difference. If the location is remote there is a selection of Solar style units that will keep a battery charged. Voltage will be around the 2500 plus on the fence. More important than voltage is the energy rating of the energizer. Look for the JOULE rating, that is the grunt part of the energizer. It is possible to have a reasonable voltage and not a lot of "kick" on the wire. Always sign the fence with safety signs to prevent accidental touching, bears cannot read so that is not a hassle. Always check the energizer you purchase has the safety standards that apply to your country. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 05:27:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barricklow, Walt" Subject: Bees gathering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had a very mild winter here in south Carolina, and I had to replenish = stores, as the bees did fly out, but there was not much blooming. Ive = had several hives swarm, and caught most of them, but the largest hive I = split. The top half is behaving as expected, and the queen is doing = well. The bottom is trying, it has queen cells, lots of activity, all = except the fact that it looks like they swarmed, but never left the face = of the hive. Ive had them move out to the face, and lots sun on the = bottom board, but they are 2 inchs thick on the face of the hive. I put = out a swarm box, gently smoked some, but they are not moving. Is this = balling the queen? Will they swarm and move, or eventually go back in = the hive. Could they need more room? Ive never seen this many bees = stay outside the hive, even though the nites are a bit cool at 50F = degrees. Should I attempt to scrape them into another super or just = wait and see. It has already been 2 weeks. Walt in sunny SC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:51:36 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Top Hive Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My girls don't seem to be taking from the top feeder either. i think they must have enough stored honey so they are not interested. They are taking from the Boardman feeder. I do add a few drops of pure wintergreen to it. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > can anyone give a definitive answer as to whether formic acid > can be considered an "organic" treatment for varroa because it is a > naturally occuring substance? Bob Stevens (the man behind bringing Apicure to market) has applied to (I don't know which licenseing agency) to have gel formic "approved" as an organic treatment. Results of his application will give as definitive an answer as you can get. More properly worded, if approved gel formic will be a "sanctioned" organic treatment. Pointed out many times on this list is the realization that "organic" does not imply "harmless". Bob is a subscriber to this forum and has occasionally commented on formic, it's in the archives. The trials and tribulations of bringing gel formic to market have been nothing short of astounding. In spite of the long awaited release and ongoing frustrations surrounding the product, the industry is (or at least SHOULD be) deeply indebted to Bob. It has always amazed me that Bayer could bring coumaphos to hives with the snap of a finger, yet gel formic has been witheld from beekeepers for over a decade! I don't understand why we beekeepers stand for it. Aaron Morris - thinking there's something wrong with this picture! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:32:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Stevens Subject: APICURE UPDATE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WE HAVE SHIPPED ABOUT 50,000 APICURE PACKETS. THERE WERE SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE PACKAGING MACHINERY UNDER FILLING SOME OF THE PACKAGES, BUT THAT HAS BEEN SOLVED AND THE 50,000 THAT WENT OUT ARE ALL AT 200 GRAMS OR ABOVE. THERE HAS BEEN ONE CASE THAT I KNOW OF WHERE TWO PACKETS HAD INADEQUATE GELLING AGENT IN THEM WHICH EMPHASIZES THE NEED TO USE CHEMICAL RESISTANT GLOVES AS PER THE LABEL AND NOT BEEKEEPER'S LEATHER GLOVES.. SOME OF THE INITIAL 3000 PACKETS THAT WENT OUT WERE NOT ADEQUATELY WASHED AND GAVE OUT QUITE AN ODOR FROM FORMIC RESIDUE ON THE OUTSIDE. BUT, SO FAR WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY PACKETS THAT WEREN'T SEALED PROPERLY. I AM CONFIDENT THAT ALL THE MINOR GLITCHES ARE BEYOND US NOW, AND WE HAVE TO FACE THE MAJOR PROBLEM - PRODUCING ENOUGH TO MEET THE DEMAND WE EXPECT IN THE SUMMER FOR FALL USE. WE ARE ATTEMPTING TO LINE UP ANOTHER PACKAGER AND IT WOULD CERTAINLY HELP IF THE BEEKEEPERS ORDERED FROM THE DISTRIBUTORS WELL IN ADVANCE. BOB STEVENS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:56:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Bees and manure, bees not drinking syrup Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My bees definitely do gather of horse dung here if I fail to provide pollen substitute, and that is how I know if they want any. Should I approach while they are gathering dung, they get very pesky and land all over me. A patty on the frame tops causes their return to the hive, restoring peace. They are consuming prodigious amounts of pollen substitute, as they have for well over a month. They get most agitated with me should I let the cupboard go bare of pollen substitute. Should I remove dried out patty remains without first replacing them (this gets clumsy), I am summarily stung, which action otherwise is rare with my bees. It is interesting to hear the hiss of the colony arise upon removal and see the little rear ends go up into the air, and to observe how all these signs to subside upon patty replacement, should I thus "sin." Apparently pollen is very important to the bees right now. I expect this situation immediately to cease when natural pollen becomes available. My ladies have, however, thus far refused to drink 1:1 syrup despite some days in the high 50's F, which is troubling inasmuch as if the maple flow starts here in central Maine, then the bees won't want their Fumidil syrup. It is, however, necessary to assess the honey stores in the hive, on the one hand to avoid starvation, but almost as important, to avoid so plugging the brood nest with new stores that the queen has no place to lay. This is a tricky time of year, and careful attention is needed. So far we are still 16 of 16 here, including the crazy Cordovans, who have lived on artificial stores since just after Christmas. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:08:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Bees gathering Walt in South Carolina is worried about the behavior of bees in his split. He says: "The bottom is trying, it has queen cells, lots of activity, all except the fact that it looks like they swarmed, but never left the face of the hive....balling the queen? Will they swarm and move, or eventually go back in..." I will venture to give an opinion on what I think is happening and why. My guess is that there are plenty of bees in the split, but because they don't yet have an active laying queen, many of those bees don't have any mouths to feed, so are not motivated to build new comb or collect pollen. I doubt that they will or have swarmed, and as long as there is plenty of room in the hive, I wouldn't worry about doing anything at all to them. Just leave them bee :) As soon as they get a new queen and she gets mated and starts producing brood things should shape up pretty fast. In my splits that are building their own queen, I don't see very much in and out activity. If I had extra bees "hanging out" I would be pleased because that would be an indication that I have a good population of young bees that will be ready to start working as soon as there is a need. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, also part of the sunny South ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:10:09 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vanessa de Behr wrote: > > Bill Truesdell wrote: > > If you live on or near an organic farm and they keep animals, your bees > have probably visited the manure piles > Bob Harrison wrote: > > I still live on a farm with a herd of livestock and have never seen a bee on a pile of dung. Vanessa, You MIGHT have found the reason. I own a rather large herd of llamas. Yes llamas! The meningeal worm-Parelaphostronglus-is in the area because of its host the white tail deer. I hate to worm so heavily but necessary as meningeal worm is a death sentance for most llamas in its advance stages. I use Ivermectin and then Fenbendazole in rotation and have never had a llama with meningeal worm. Have you as a Vet during the week ever seen a bee on a dung pile? With the whole world looking we should be able to resolve this issue quickly! Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:35:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi my experiance seems to differ In a managed hive, whilst the cells get shorter in old comb and the midrib thickens the basic cell size does not change much as the bees chew away most of the sidewalls and renew it with fresh wax. In a "wild" colony, during autumn, the centre of focus moves off centre by about 1/3 of the colony width and thus a different set of marginal comb is exposed for demolition by waxmoth every winter. Giving automatic renewal. as far as queens preference goes it seems to me that they prefer the dirtiest and oldest combs most highly...I suspect they contain a higher proportion of absorbed "queen pheramone" and so the worker bees prepare them for egg laying first. ----- Original Message ----- From: Harry Goudie > As the comb get older the cell size gets progressively smaller...> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:51:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Top Hive Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have hives which take syrup readily and hives in which it sits until it sours. I have yet to figure out why one colony will be thirsty and another will ignore syrup. It just is. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:43:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Bees and manure, bees not drinking syrup Bill Morong makes the observation that when his bees want pollen or pollen substitute that he often sees them on horse dung, but then when he provides them with the pollen substitute that they no longer go to the dung. The thought that immediately came to my mind is that maybe they are going for the nitrogen and possibly other elemental nutrients that they would be getting from pollen or pollen substitutes. That would be my guess. Bill has provided a very interesting juxtaposition of observations. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:21:04 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: I agree with your post and beekeepers i have talked to are grateful to Mr. Bob Stevens. As a customer of his and having talked to him on several in person i believe he has the best interest of beekeepers in his mind.Thanks Bob for investing your time and money getting a product registered we desperately need! The reason Bayer got the coumaphos on the market so fast in the U.S. is simple. Section 18 . For people not knowing what section 18 is i will put it in beekeepers terms. If the E.P.A can be shown that the product can stop a crash of the bee hives in the U.S. do to the lack of another product which will do the job AND not cause serious side effects then a section 18 emergency use can be issued for ONE year. Solve the problem and do damage control later. So far after one year with coumaphos we have seen the added changes which i have a copy of and Mann Lake can provide. comb honey can not be sold from hives treated with coumphos and the strips need to removed two weeks before honey supers are put on . If the E.P.A.is so worried about coumaphos why not 30 days like Terramycin? I put my comb honey supers on in the middle of a heavy honey flow and remove usually in a week to prevent travel stain are they really more at risk than the other supers? The E.P.A. will look at Coumaphos and may not renew next year or can. Thats why the registration of the gell is so important. My gut feeling is that if another product gets approved which works then coumaphos is history! It is my understanding the comb honey restriction is only for this year and may be lifted at a later date. Is not the E.P.A. looking out for our interest? Many beekeepers see coumaphos as a useful tool for the time being. Its legal and its giving close to 100% varroa control. Many beekeepers feel Bayer needs thanking as they really didn't put coumaphos on the market solely for the money. Beekeepers talked them into it! In doing research for this post i found out from my state pest control office that if a pest is resistant to all chemicals available on the market. The licensed pest control person can apply for a emergency use permit. Pay $10 in Missouri U.S. and apply Banned pesticides. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:23:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keeler, Lisa" Subject: A Positive Point for GMO's and Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I just saw this at work and thought I'd pass it on. Lisa Keeler Zionsville, IN Honey from GM Plants Could Sweeten Vaccination Scientists in the Netherlands are using the nectar of genetically modified plants to produce honey containing drugs and vaccines, according to New Scientist. The team at the Centre for Plant Breeding and Reproduction Research in Wageningen found that proteins in the nectar pass straight into the honey without being digested by the bee.The opportunity was discovered when anti-fungal proteins from heather was found in commercial brands of honey. Investigating this, scientists found bees fed on a sugar solution containing bovine serum albumin (BSA), found that BSA made it through to the honey unaltered and at twice the concentration in the original solution. The team have inserted the genes for various drugs into vectors that ensure secretion in the nectar. They are currently genetically engineering petunias so they yield a vaccine against parvovirus for dogs. The contained experiments will also indicate whether vaccine proteins will be preserved in the honey. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:00:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Organic Honey In-Reply-To: <200003291715.MAA23415@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 We see this 'dung visiting' habit on numerous occasions every year. It is not often actually the dung we see them at, more often it is sucking up the ghastly black liquor coming out of the base of the mounds the farmers have built to allow the dung to rot down. This continues all conditions, and even with liberal supplies of clean water nearby. We always assumed it was the bees seeking to address some kind of mineral deficiency, but I have also been told that this liquor is quite high in sugar. (I never quite plucked up the courage to taste it!) Our little darlings do have some foul looking habits. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 13:14:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic In-Reply-To: <200003301314.IAA26611@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > can anyone give a definitive answer as to whether formic acid > > can be considered an "organic" treatment for varroa because it is a > > naturally occurring substance? Only a priest of the organic religion, and there are many sects. 'Organic' is sorta like 'kosher'. There is a process and there are rules, and they sorta make some kind of logic, and the idea is very important to some people, but no man can quite explain them. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:02:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote:- > In a managed hive, whilst the cells get shorter in old comb and the midrib > thickens the basic cell size does not change much as the bees chew away most > of the sidewalls and renew it with fresh wax. I have to say that it looks smaller to me but I have not measured it and you may well be correct. I don't want to discourage the flow of ideas on varroa control but this one seems not to be very practical. Firstly how do you make the bees produce a small cell. The bees have to get inside the cell so they can not produce a cell smaller than their own size. The only way I can see of obtaining smaller bees is if my original idea of the old comb is correct. Then each year your bees will be smaller and you may be able to persuade them to produce smaller comb. There will be a stage where you then need a smaller queen as the cells will become so small that the queen can no longer get in to lay her eggs. How do you produce a smaller queen? Will the smaller bees bring in less honey? It seems to me that to produce smaller bees would be a long and expensive process and we don't know whether it would have any effect on the varroa mite. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 17:08:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Top Hive Feeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dissolve a peppermint in it. They will smell that. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:45:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Bees and manure, bees not drinking syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit During the summer months, various types of butterfly may be observed visiting stagnant pools of "water" around dung heaps - taking up the liquid. Maybe they cannot distinguish between water containing salts and those containing sugars! Is there any work showing that bees can or cannot make the difference between the two solution types? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 18:03:04 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry, I my opinion you have given the cell size issue a lot of thought. i agree with most you have said but i don't have the answers to give you . I have thoughts about getting the smaller bees but cannot prove my ideas. I kept smaller bees when i started beekeeping in Missouri. I kept a strain of small black German bees for years. They had one fault and that was temperment. They produced a lot of honey but not as prolific as my Italians. I kept raising queens from her for almost ten years but eventually lost the line. The queen would go right thru a modern queen excluder so i had to use a old wood slate excluder made YEARS ago. I got a interesting call from a Iowa beekeeper complaining about a Missouri beekeepers nucs last year. This Missouri beekeeper sells around 300 nucs a year. The Iowa beekeeper wanted me to give him the source of my queens. Why? Because those tiny queens he got went right thru his new queen excluders he bought last year and laid eggs in all his honey supers. I gave him the name of my queen breeder but plan on checking those small queens out. How about a quote from page 22 of the varroa handbook. In the Indian bee,Apis Cerana-original host to varroa,varroa mites are unable to reproduce in WORKER BROOD. Female mites may enter worker cells ,but will remain trapped for the full pupation period,unable to even lay an egg. This fact alone reduces the mite's chances considerably and new generations can only be produced when drone brood is present in the colony. The quote is exactly as above-look it up-except i added-original host to varroa for beekeepers maybe not aware of that fact. A mite is not supposed to kill its host and doesn't with Apis Cerana. The above is my answer why Apis Cerana servive varroa and Apis melliferia don't. I am a well read beekeeper not a DR. Shiminuki. If i am not on the right track tell me so i can get on with my life. I have got about one more week before beekeeping season starts full time and then it will be late at night if at all i will be able to do bee-L. I think you are starting to at least think about my theory. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 16:57:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bees and manure, bees not drinking syrup In-Reply-To: <200003310012.TAA24173@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It is likely they are after the trace minerals and salts that are contained in the urine and/or feces. More than sugar is required for metabolism and health. On Fri, 31 Mar 2000, peter dillon wrote: ... > Maybe they cannot distinguish between water containing salts and those > containing sugars! .... --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 04:31:22 -0600 Reply-To: scotia@bellsouth.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: scotia Subject: Re: Bees and manure, bees not drinking syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Musashi wrote: > The thought that immediately came to my mind is that maybe they are going for > the nitrogen and possibly other elemental nutrients that they would be getting > from pollen or pollen substitutes. > Layne Westover > College Station, Texas Husband says Bees, butterflies, etc .are getting the Amino Acids which they lack from dung and/or urine of mammals. Scot Phillips Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 06:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by raroach@IX.NETCOM.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=453F2B77) (57 lines) ------------------- From: "Robert Roach" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: FW: Formic: Organic or synthetic Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 22:54:18 -0800 Message-ID: John, Formic acid does not appear on the National Organic Program's proposed list of allowed substances for organic production. Just because a substance is naturally occurring that does not mean it may be used on certified organic crops. For example, nicotine is not allowed because it is too toxic. Leaving aside radioactive materials, the most toxic substances we know occur naturally. To see the list, go to http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/ and click on the "National List" link. The USDA is accepting comments on the proposed rule until June 13, 2000. The last time they ran this proposal out they received comments from 275,603 individuals and organizations. Should formic acid be included? How is it made? If it is extracted from a naturally occurring source or produced by fermentation or other natural processes, I think it should be considered for inclusion. Bob Roach ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 08:01:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: cell size and musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is another subject that was covered fairly extensively in the past. I was and still am a believer that small cell size helps in combating Varroa, but there are no studies that back up my guess. Instead, the only formal study that I have seen says cell size has no effect. It was done in Sweden many years ago. I thought the study was not that rigorous. But... there are trials being conducted somewhere in the south west with small cell size. Have heard little since the beginning of the trial, even though much was made about it, I think in Gleanings. The supposition is that with smaller cell size, you get earlier emergence of workers so the mite does not develop- except in drone brood, and even there less since they also emerge earlier. At least that is the theory. It may work. So many of these home grown trials start out with lots of noise, but when they fail, you hear nothing. Two winters ago I tried over wintering with three deeps and got great results. Figured I had discovered a great beekeeping truth of our time, and told several people. This spring I lost my first hive in years and may lose another. Was it the three deeps? Maybe. It looks a lot more like a reemergence of tracheal mites, which I carelessly thought was behind us. But it may have been the three deeps. We beekeepers do not lightly confess our failures, so maybe I will just blame it on tracheal.... but then that shows I was a beehaver and not beekeeper, so I'll just keep my mouth shut and go to two deeps next winter. For those unfamiliar with my brand of humor, I will not keep it a secret but will inform the others of my failure. Just like I just did with you, so please, be kind. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:12:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Sheri E.Day" Subject: Renting Nucs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good Day All, > I am presently the beekeeper for The Plant Genetic Resources Unit located on the campus of The New York State Agricultural Experiment Station in > Geneva, NY. We have about 80 parent colonies and 60 double nucs that I > later split to acquirer a total of about 200 nucs. We use these nucs for > pollination purposes only. We are tossing around the idea of renting bees, > in nuc form, instead of keeping bees all year. Reasons for doing this are; > of course money, we hope to save a great deal by renting bees from a > beekeeper. Also we are interested in freeing up my time to do other work > such as plant characterization. I am wondering... are there any of you out > there that can offer me some input on this matter. I need to know if you > can supply us with about 200 nucs in the mid to late spring to be recovered > in late summer early fall. I need to know prices, if you would be > medicating hives prier to delivery, if you would be interesting in > bartering the first year. ie...we have a lot of bees and equipment to trade > in return for nucs rented. I am in need of information and estimation of > cost from at least three different beekeepers. Let me know if you are > interested in talking about this option further or if you have names of > beekeepers I could get in touch with that may be interested in helping us > out. Thank you for you time. Sheri Day Sheri E. Day Pollination Technician USDA/ARS Plant Genetic Resources Unit Cornell University Geneva, NY 14456 see6@cornell.edu ph.(315)787-2455 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 13:56:26 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: cell size and musings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > > This is another subject that was covered fairly extensively in the past. > wes the issue resolved to your satifaction? > I was and still am a believer that small cell size helps in combating > Varroa, but there are no studies that back up my guess. Instead, the only > formal study that I have seen says cell size has no effect. It was done in > Sweden many years ago. I thought the study was not that rigorous. Is study being held back because of the lack of foundation of small sizes to try? > But... there are trials being conducted somewhere in the south west with > small cell size. Have heard little since the beginning of the trial, even > though much was made about it, I think in Gleanings. Dee Lusby > The supposition is that with smaller cell size, you get earlier emergence > of workers so the mite does not develop- except in drone brood, and even > there less since they also emerge earlier. At least that is the theory. earlier emergence will not stop varroa as there is still plenty of time for the mites to reproduce in all bees discused. My whole theory is based on two points. 1. A cell size the size of apis cerana will KEEP varroa from reproducing in winter and anytime during the year bees are not raising drones. According to pg. 22 of Varroa Handbook this is exactly why Varroa isn't a hugh problem with apis cerana. 2. "Varroa mites outside brood cells must draw the blood of adult bees" quote from pg. 9 of varroa handbook Varroa has a hard time getting to the blood as stated in previous email and even is part of the reason some fall off. Floor screens as Ipm as put forth by "Shiminuki". I believe the smaller target will make it even harder for varroa to feed on a much smaller bee. Varroa Mites have survived for up to 7 days without the colony so we can assume, that one feed in the hive can also provide sufficient energy for a similar period. Quote pg. 9 Varroa Handbook. Many of our leading researchers have said to me everything you need to know about varroa is in "The Varroa Handbook" by Bernard Mobus and Larry Conner. My hardest question has been why varroa switched from apis cerana to apis melliferia after centuries. Even our best bee researchers were shocked at varroa's march across the world. Varroa jacobsoni first discovered in North America on Sept. 25, 1987 in Wisconsin. resistance to fluvalinate in about the same amount of years as in Europe. Everytime history repeats itself the price goes up ! Bob Harrison 2000 AD ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 15:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: native pollinators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have had a call where "thousands" of ground nesting bees have spread throughout the neighborhood, evidently over the years, from the backyard of an elderly person who doesn't keep their yard to community standards. These bees are active now and have little tunnels with mounds of dirt next to them. It sounds like quite a natural bee bed. The home is being sold and neighbors have asked the new prospective owner what he is going to do about the "bee problem". They are extremely populous and active by the sidewalk. An exterminator has told him that he will contract to eliminate them for this year but they will be back next year. I went out and viewed the area and collected some bees. There is a half acre lot with minimal grass covering with good sun at this time but will be shaded by Oaks later. Most of the lot is covered with about eight hills/burrows per square foot and they extend into neighboring yards where grass is minimal along shrubs and by trees. The lot is sandy, poor grass, and sporadic moss covered. The female bee is just a little smaller that a honeybee, black, narrow yellow/brown stripes on the abdomen, hairy thorax and face with light brown fuzz. Female antennae are noticeably jointed. Male is smaller, about half female's size, similar to female but antennae appear arched instead of jointed. The females were active on neighborhood shrubs of Forsythia and Andromida. Males were attempting to mount the females on the wing over the burrows, on flowers, and at the burrows. Females appear to carry the pollen on their hind legs similar to honeybees but in smaller, stretched out baskets. I dug up one burrow but I either lost it a couple inches down or it ended there. I found one yellow/white larva in the soil about the size of a eight day honeybee larva but more skinny, having a tougher skin, about five inches down. I would expect that these are Andrena since Halictus mate in fall and only queens emerge in spring. I am not familiar with Colletes. I spoke to the purchaser and explained what they were, their function, and why they had selected his potential yard. I told him that if this was the only reason for hesitating on the home purchase, go ahead and buy it. I explained that the exterminator would only be killing those currently flying and that they would return next year. I also showed how docile they were by sitting in the middle of the bed and standing near the bushes that they were working. I recommended that he not exterminate them but just start taking care of the yard by liming, seeding, and watering. Years of neglect have provided an excellent nesting area. This will reduce the benefits of the nesting site and they will be forced back into better local sites and the yard fringe areas so that they will not be so noticeable or intimidating by location or sheer numbers. He was inclined to accept my recommendation and will present it to his wife. I wish I could show this to East-end growers/orchardists. They tell me there are no pollinators around but this shows that if an area is left fallow and without insecticides that the pollinators can flourish. Of course, they don't want to leave any land fallow. There are beekeepers within a couple miles in several directions and these native pollinators are doing fine. Unfortunately titans collide and "man" is preparing to invade its territory. Additional insight on identification clues always appreciated. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary President (again) - Long Island Beekeepers Association web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 16:53:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cell size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen must be a mind reader. He has asked the very same questions that I have written down. I intended asking the people on the Top bar hive list to measure as Allen describes and let me know the results. However, Luddite as I am, I have been unable to work out how to send the same message to lots of people. As additional questions I was going to ask the latitude and altitude of the respondents' hives and whether their bees were local mongrels or a known race, eg Italians. The reason for the extra questions is that many creatures get bigger/ burlier the farther they originate from sea level/ the equator. If, as expected, preferred cell size is genetically controlled Italian bees should prefer the same range of cell sizes whether they are in Florida or Alaska (or even Italy). Where a TBH has feral bees, especially if in an area where bees have always been kept so there has been a good genetic mixture for a long time it would be interesting to see whether selective pressure from the environment will favour bees producing cell sizes more suited to their location. I agree that there may be more than one cell size on one comb. I measured as described three times on 2 wild combs and got 3 different figures. The average was 5.06mm. Foundation is 5.7mm, about 12 1/2 % oversize. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:32:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Formic: Organic or synthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are implying that formic acid obtained by extracting it from natural substances found in nature is different from formic acid synthesized from chemicals in a laboratory, then you have forgotten the chemistry you should have learned in high school chemistry. Formic acid is formic acid! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 18:48:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: Top Hive Feeder Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bruce Murphy said; > I put a new top Hive feeder on a hive last week Hive top feeders are the only type I use now. These are the ones that are the same dimensions as a super but 2-3" deep. While I believe these are the best feeders, they have some problems. The commercial feeders that I bought several years ago had a metal cover over the entrance. The bees came up through the entrance over the top and down to the liquid. I found that these covers caused the feeding bees to be pushed into the syrup by their sisters to drown and block access to the syrup. I removed the covers, leaving the entrance open then cut a piece of 1/4" plywood which fits over the entrance and floats on top of the syrup. The bees now have open access to the float which is 1-2" smaller than the feeder leaving a space around the outside for the bees to feed. My feeders are sealed with melted beeswax which has to be remelted each year to prevent leakage. I dribble a little syrup down the entrance hole to attract the bees up. Sometimes nothing brings them up. I guess at several possible causes to be: small colony, lotsa stores, still in cluster etc. I dump a small amount of pollen onto the float which dissapears quickly. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W 44N