From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Jun 17 06:53:32 2000 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29415 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10479 for ; Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200006171053.GAA10479@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 06:53:12 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0005B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 223482 Lines: 4713 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 19:25:50 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Royal Jelly Research Foundation Comments: To: Apitherapy-L Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi You may be aware thatr I have been investigating the fraudulent royal jelly research eminating from Australia. I have come across a so-called medical expert's report to an attourney talking about a, "non-scientific, non-mainstream body such as the Royal Jelly Research Foundation." This expert, used by Australian and NZ government officials have been proven to have submitted totally false evidence on several occassions, in his case against royal jelly. A search of the Internet finds a single reference to the Royal Jelly Research Foundation at http://www.ifas.ufl.edu:7100/~mts/apishtm/papers/NASHVILLE.HTM Can anyone please give me any details about the history, contacts, etc, that you might have. Any information will be most useful. Kind regards Ron Law ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:12:54 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: Pesticide info sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.greens.org/ny/stop-spraying/sumithrin.htm http://www.agrevo.com.au/eh/e023/e023main.htm http://www.agrevo.com.au/eh/e023/e023sum.htm http://www.agrevo.com.au/eh/e023/e023ben.htm http://www.zanus.com/home.html http://www.nypirg.org/mosquito.html http://www.igeba.de/pesticid1.htm http://www.longislandernews.com/9-30-99/li-spray.htm http://www.bonsai-bsf.com/pest/pclasses.html http://www.deh.enr.state.nc.us/Publicinfo/spray_schedule.htm Just a selection of 252 hits at www.alltheweb.com cheers John Mitchell wrote: > In an article in the New York Times about the West Nile virus and the > pesticides and their alternatives being used to knock down the mosquito > population, there is a reference to a pesticide that I can't find any > information about. > Here's the quote from the article, dated April 14th: > "Last summer, Westchester was one of several suburban counties that chose > a different pesticide, sumithrin, sold under the trade name Anvil, for its > attack on mosquitoes." > Using resource links at Dave Green's pollination page, I was unable to > locate any information about sumithrin, and only one reference, in a list, to > a produce called Anvil. However, the pesticide in Anvil in that reference was > said to be hexaconazole. I searched on the Extension Toxicology Network (UC > Davis), and the CDMS label/MSDS information search engine. > Can anybody help me out figuring out what sumithrin or Anvil is, and > whether it is toxic to honeybees? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 21:44:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Pesticide info sought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/00 4:04:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JMitc1014@AOL.COM writes: > Here's the quote from the article, dated April 14th: > "Last summer, Westchester was one of several suburban counties that chose > a different pesticide, sumithrin, sold under the trade name Anvil, for its > attack on mosquitoes." > Using resource links at Dave Green's pollination page, I was unable to > locate any information about sumithrin, and only one reference, in a list, > to > a produce called Anvil. However, the pesticide in Anvil in that reference > was > said to be hexaconazole. I searched on the Extension Toxicology Network (UC > Davis), and the CDMS label/MSDS information search engine. > Can anybody help me out figuring out what sumithrin or Anvil is, and > whether it is toxic to honeybees? It is a widely used (by mosquito applicators) synthetic pyrethroid. The selling point is rapid breakdown, so I assume it's not residual enough to be a hazard to bees -- IF SPRAYED WHEN THEY ARE NOT FORAGING. I have been unable to get a copy of the label. The EPA fact sheet #234 on sumithrin seems to have been withdrawn, so perhaps changes are imminant... There are two formulations Anvil 2+2 ULV, and Anvil 10+10 ULV. I'll continue to try to get a label. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:50:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: More on Winter Loss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Back in Feb. I was one of the first to report heavy winter losses. I had some colonies perish in late Nov. I attributed this to varroa, although I treated with Apistan. Some were treated earlier than others but there was no pattern as to suggest a relationship. I also treated all colonies with menthol. The menthol was on well before our Penn State University prescribed cut off date for this area. In early Jan. I was showing about 20% loss. I am pretty sure the rest of the colonies that perished, most of them had T-mites. Plenty of stores, small cluster. However I can't help but note that the yards that were in the open without wind protection suffered the greatest. We had a very severe cold spell in late Jan. with high winds. Holly trees that have been growing for years looked terrible except for areas below the snow line. (My wife, a Master Gardner, worked at the Philadelphia Flower Show garden problem area. The biggest problem this spring, reported by gardeners, was winter kill.) Bees can stand cold temp, and large clusters on strong colonies will survive just about anything but wind chill may be a little more stressful. My strongest survivors were in wind protected areas. One yard, the farthest away and usually the most neglected, did the best with 100% survival and very strong spring clusters. I treated the bees in this yard last. I "think" that sometimes nature culls the weak with abnormal occurrences. I think in a normal winter a number of the colonies that perished would have survived, albeit not very strong. But a number of my bees come through winter with small clusters and then build up quite well in spring without swarming and yielding a good honey crop. For the last few seasons we have had warm autumns. There was a lot of activity late with no nectar sources. Bees were burning up winter stores early. I started looking for colonies that shut down brood rearing in the fall and went into winter with smaller clusters. I would raise queens from these so maybe I was selecting for a trait that could not handle the change in weather. Again, I know T-mites are part of the problem but I am not convinced I can blame everything on mites. All totaled I had about 50% loss. Other area beekeepers reported the same or higher. We have had T-mites in this area since '92. I like others have been treating ever since. What was different this year? Funny Note: I am writing this at 20,000 feet while returning home from a business trip. We received our first swarm call today. In a year where I need bees I am 2500 miles away from the swarm. My wife told me about the call that came in this morning. She can't go get this one so they will have to wait for me to get home, around 6:00 p.m.. Any bets as to how soon before I arrive swarm will leave. Maybe there is a record for the longest distance traveled chasing swarms. This is what keeps it fun. Further Note: Because of the "I Love You" virus, I was unable to mail this until today. The swarm left not long after they called. Probably would not have captured it if I was home. However, I did get a swarm. I have some of the hive bodies stacked up from the dead colonies. A swarm took up residency. The queen was marked "pink" although I guess it is suppose to be red. I know it wasn't one of mine, and the nearest beekeeper is a few miles away. I guess you win some and lose some. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 08:16:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: FW: Need advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can someone closer to the Africanized penetration into Texas help? Also, this shows the need for an organization of beekeeping information on the web. It would be great to have a national level organization set up a web page that would allow someone find it easily and to work down to local help. I know, we can't even get that kind of organization at the state level! "Some people see things as they are and ask Why? Others see things as they could be and ask Why not?" I have ideas but no resources. -----Original Message----- From: Lackey, Raymond Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 8:06 AM To: 'alphanunu@webtv.net' Subject: RE: Need advice This is the best help I can give you at this range. I will pass this on to others closer to the problem. A) No. Honey bees can be exterminated whenever they are a nuisance. B) Generally, no. There is no licensing of beekeepers. C) Generally honeybees, no. Do not be so quick to class them as not Africanized. This is not a simple diagnoses and the behavior is more like Africanized. Ray Lackey -----Original Message----- From: alphanunu@webtv.net [mailto:alphanunu@webtv.net] Sent: Monday, May 08, 2000 12:24 AM To: Lackey, Raymond Subject: Need advice I am a homebuilder in Austin, Texas and today faced a bee emergency while trying to do the right thing. We had a huge hive in a tree and have just finished a home on the lot next door. This hive was ten feet from all the construction activity...bulldozers, concrete trucks, framers, landscapers, etc. The buyer moved in and requested we do something about the bees as humanely as possible. We called a local pest control service and they said bees were protected by the government and they could not destroy them. Question A) Is that true? Then we contacted a beekeeper (hobbyist) who came and set up whatever the boxes and such are and "smoked" them. He began the process and stayed an hour or so and then left, meaning to return later. The bees, who had not stung anyone during the arduous construction process, and who did NOT seem agitated when the beekeeper was there, then swarmed and attacked and killed a labrador in a backyard about 100 feet away surrounded by a six foot privacy fence. They continued to swarm the immediate neighborhood and the fire dept. was called. They "soaped" the hive with little effect and then I called a pest control man who specialized in bees. I hated to have them killed, but I have neighbors hysterically screaming. Now, if I still have your attention after all this, and IF you answer questions like this.... The poor beekeeper is just the sweetest man and the neighbors are yelling that I did not have a LICENSED bee person...B) Is there such a thing? The pest control man said they were NOT Africanized or they would have been MUCH more aggressive (They did not swarm him while he agitated their hive and put out the poison) C) Have you heard of this kind of behavior from honey bees? I am heartsick because of the dog and the bees. Any information you can give would be so greatly appreciated. I could find no Texas bee clubs, so I hope you get this and can respond. Thank you. Ann Rayborn, Austin, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 22:23:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: CHALKBROOD SURVEY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On April 24 I sent out a survey to BEE-L. I had 5 responses (but if I get 10 or more new responses I will redo the analysis). Here are the results. WHO WOULD REALLY TREAT FOR CHALKBROOD ANYWAYS? 1. What percentage of your colonies has levels of chalkbrood that you feel are costing you money (choose the closest)? - 0% - 25% - 50% - 75% - 100% AVERAGE= 30% HIGH= 50% LOW= 10% - half of the responses (2 out of 4) felt that chalkbrood does not cost beekeepers any substantial amount of money. MOST NOTABLE COMMENT: "Having said that I have seen chalkbrood that was killing colonies - yes out right killing of colonies and sometimes lots of them in an outfit. In those cases the beekeeper had a very heavy impact and was loosing all honey production from quite a few colonies that were surviving and much reduced honey production from many others. In every yard though there were some colonies with no chalkbrood that were producing a very good honey crop." ********** 2. What kind of reduction in disease severity would be worth the effort of going on to the bee yard to take some action (choose the closest)? - 25% reduction - 50% - 75% - 100% AVERAGE= 60% HIGH= 100% LOW= 25% *********** 3. If there was a product, queen source or management technique that would leave you free of chalkbrood what would you pay per colony per season (choose the closest)? - $0.50 - $1.00 - $2.00 AVERAGE= $0.90 HIGH= $2.00 (1 response) LOW= $0.25 (2 responses) MOST NOTABLE COMMENT: "I would pay more for a treatment if I only had to treat affected colonies." ******** 4. How bad does chalkbrood have to be before you will requeen (choose the closest)? - I don't requeen, it is too much money and effort for the return - a single mummy on a frame or a bottom board - I do not have to look far to see signs of mummies - a big pile of mummies in the frames and one the bottom board Responses were pretty much evenly spread out over the 4 categories. MOST NOTABLE COMMENT: "I do not have to look far to see signs of mummies (summer), or a big pile of mummies (spring)". 5. If chalkbrood were a Hollywood villian who would it be (choose the closest)? - Pee Wee Herman - one of the bad guys out of a Die Hard movie - Scarface Most agreed on Pee Wee Herman, although there was one vote for Scarface. MOST NOTABLE COMMENT: "Sorry, Hollywood IS a villain. But I read. Chalkbrood is Machiavelli". Regards Adony ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:51:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Malathion Spraying Comments: cc: dnbrown@ma.ultranet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/7/00 11:52:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dnbrown@MA.ULTRANET.COM writes: > I am a student in the 8th grade at the Parker Charter Essential > School. I am currently studying activism issues, and I have chosen mosquito > spraying as an issue, for my research project. One of the sources I need is > an interview or similar correspondence, and I thought I might be able to > satisfy this by asking the BEE-L. I am myself a beekeeper, which is why I > am interested in this issue. Some interview-type questions I can give you > are: > > Have you or are you planning to protest the spraying, or try to stop > the spraying in any way? (it need not be a holding-signs-by-the-Statehouse > type of thing) If so, in what ways did/would you do this? Kendra, I have never tried to prevent spraying, as there is a public health issue; at least this is claimed by the officials, so I think it is futile to try to prevent spraying. But application must be done in accordance with label directions, or it is pesticide misuse (illegal). The labels require that applications NOT be made when bees are visiting blossoms in the treatment area. Right now there are plenty of bee-attractive blossoms in the treatment area, and plenty of bees visiting them during certain hours of the day. To comply with the law, the applicators must determine the times that bees are NOT visiting the application area. This means they must do some monitoring, rather than guesswork. What they usually do is circumvent the law, by notifying beekeepers to protect the bees. This is impossible in most cases, and it does absolutely nothing to protect feral honeybees, and native wild bees. The native bees are important pollinators, and the feral honeybes may be few, but are valuable in that they may be a source of varroa resistance for breeding. > How would you propose that the mosquito problem be dealt with > otherwise? Larvicides and good management of standing water as much as possible. When adulticides like malathion must be used, there must be monitoring of bee forage times and application in strict accordance with the label directions. The public officials are not above the law. You can get a copy of the malathion label from a garden store or on the internet at Crop Data Management Systems: http://pollinator.com/pesticide_misuse.htm Look under "Environmental Hazards." The label is the law for that pesticide. > Is this only a bad thing from a beekeeper's standpoint, or might it > do things like kill off natural predators of mosquitoes? Widespread aerial applications kill off many other pollinators than honeybees, and cause other disruptions in the natural balance. For a documented violation look at: http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ > Any information would be gladly accepted, but I should have it > before this Wednesday at the latest. I hope this is not too short notice. > If anybody could tell me about other sources I might find, please do! > > Kendra Brown > 8th Grader > Francis W. Parker Charter Essential School, Devens, Mass. Good luck. I hope you can make a difference! I have worked on this for two decades, and get pretty discouraged at times. In South Carolina, the pesticide enforcement is done by Clemson University, and the pesticide industry gives a lot of money to the school for research. So there is a built-in conflict of interest. One of my biggest discouragements is that other beekeepers will not insist that applications be done according to the law, and accept the illegal circumventions that are favored by applicators. So many will run, instead of standing together. After a while, there's no longer any place to run to.... I know a beekeeper who was warned about a big aerial mosquito spraying project in his area, so he took down the supers (in the middle of a honeyflow) moved two tractor trailer loads of bees out of the area, then resupered, and was immediately hit by applications on blooming alfalfa. Both the mosquito and the alfalfa applications were done in clear violation of the labels. The beekeeper chose to run, and lost big time. Losses from pesticide misuse, are a form of selective breeding in favor of the poorest, sickest stocks of bees that we have. The best ones are out working on the flowers, and they are the ones that are hit the hardest. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 21:27:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: A question for US beekeepeers Comments: To: jcbach@yvn.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/7/00 3:49:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jcbach@YVN.COM writes: > We had some honey sold in the state as apple honey, apricot honey, because > these fruit trees bloom and the retailer wanted to capitalize on the famous > Washington apple industry. Fruit trees do not produce any surplus honey, > instead the bees use up this nectar to raise brood in the spring. Another > retailer was packing honey with apple and other fruit bits as apple honey, > prune honey etc. Both retailers were told that they were not in compliance > with truth in labeling laws and were required to change their labeling. Only partially true: certainly there is phony product around, but it IS possible to make surplus honey on apples, if you are a good beekeeper; not every year, but about one year in three. Perhaps every ten years or so, apples have so much nectar that you can brush a blooming limb and be sticky, as with oranges. In that year you could make a large surplus. It's easier to do if you have an abandoned apple orchard, where you don't have to worry about moving the bees in a hurry. A lot of beekeepers doing apple pollination simply don't have time to try. But, if you go into the orchard with bees strong and solid (early syrup and lots of brood), and get the supers on, you can make this premium honey. The bees need to be built up FOR the apples, not ON the apples. If you have old queens, or you wait too long to super, they'll be hanging in the apple trees. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 19:33:25 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Crooked New Comb in TBHs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit question 1 that they build the incorrect combs Nord/South??? question 2 did you give them any little piece of wax?? see: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/my_tbh.html question 3 what shape topbar do you use?? regards, jan Roger Flanders wrote: > > Can anything be done to encourage straight comb-building in top bar > hives after the colonies have begun building comb "off-center"? I'm > experimenting with two TBHs this year. Both colonies were installed > 4/14, and both are building beautiful new comb, but their combs are > about 30-degrees off parallel. Each comb is attached across two or > three top bars. Obviously, I'd like to correct this problem before > much more new comb is built. > --Rog Flanders, Nemaha County, Nebraska -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 20:52:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: Re: A question for U.S. beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If nothing is added to the honey, the ingredient list should say- "Honey" and list the amount by weight in ounces. This will vary from place to place. Thom Bradley j h & e mcadam wrote: > > I believe that the food regulations of the United States require that > ingredients be listed on food packaging, e.g. jars. > > Does this apply to honey? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 14:29:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Distance bees fly over water MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Wenner wrote: > Trevor Weatherhead noted: > > >We have a natural barrier by sea of 35 kilometres (about 22 miles) between > >islands that the Asian bees (Apis cerana) from Papua New Guinea have not > >breached. > > Santa Rosa Island, less than 10 km west, has never had honey bees > --- despite the short distance between those islands. I still wonder about Trinidad - was the source of the AHB there ever established ?? ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Agricultural Research Service - USDA Tucson, Arizona 85719 32.27495 N 110.9402 W http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Trachael mite detection? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Morong wrote: > > Whenever working on colonies that seem to have trachael mites, I have by the > same evening had excruciatingly itchy eyelids with redness. Unable to see > the cause I had my son look for "cooties." With the naked eye nothing was > visible, but with a 30x > microscope, he was able to see 8-legged light-colored "cooties" on my > eyelashes. Hi Bill, I have done a lot of tracheal mite testing on beekeepers bees but have never seen what you describe on humans. i looked at many infestations in the late 80's but can't remember any of those things with the eyes after working bees. Maybe a bee lab person will respond. Bob harrison U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:09:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Varroa and PHEROVAR In-Reply-To: <200005031144.HAA04513@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Pherovar is as it is described in our web site - it's a specific pheromone blend isolated after 8 years research at the University of Udine, Italy. The blend is specific to/from varroa mites and has no effect on bees or other hive pests. One dispenser is to be pinned onto a top bar in the brood chamber per hive and left in place over 2 - 3 months during the brood period/honeyflow. It reduces mite population increase by disturbing normal oviposition behaviour. Papers are to be published shortly on the precise mode of action and composition of this product. Meanwhile we are conducting a 3rd year of field trials to finalise the dispenser loadings. HOWEVER, please do not expect Pherovar to be a panacaea - it is designed for use in Integrated Pest Management systems - use Pherovar during the summer and something else, if necessary, before the end of fall. Expect to hear more about it later; it will be available for NEXT SEASON (2001). After 8 years research, that's not too long to wait. Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited Brook House, Alencon Link Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7RD UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 15:40:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Ted J. Hancock" Subject: Drones etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tomas Mozer has made the Discover article on Quantum mechanics more = understandable and given me some other interesting material to read. = Many people on this list appear to have more wisdom, time and ability to = search for the latest developments in beekeeping research than I, so at = the risk of being told to search the archives I would like to ask a few = questions. 1. It has been three years since the article on quantum bees was = published. Has there been any further research or development? 2. The latest edition of ' The Hive and the Honey Bee ' ( also = published three years ago ) says a drone only flies about three = kilometres from the hive (pg. 350). I remember reading about an = experiment done by Don Peer in a bee-free area of northern Ontario in = which he used Cordovan markers to prove queens fly up to 9 miles(?) away = from the hive to mate. Presumably this is to avoid their sons. What is = the average distance a queen flies from the hive during mating? 3. How do queens know where drone congregation areas are? If pheromones = are involved do queens always fly up wind to mate? If landmarks are = involved, what direction does a virgin queen head in central = Saskatchewan ( think flat ) or some place like the Gobi Desert. 4. Certain moths can detect a bat's radar and as soon as they sense it = they go into an erratic flight pattern in an attempt to escape. Do = queens have any similar behaviour to avoid capture by birds? 5. Why have drones evolved the behaviour of congregating in one area? = Drones are so hard wired that they will try to mate with a good looking = clothespin ( I know men like this ) yet they won't pursue a queen below = a certain level above the ground ( 12 feet? ). Could both these = behaviours have evolved so that the queen is less visible to birds? 6. I have seen two or three worker bees pursuing swallows. Are they = chasing them away from the beeyard? Has this been documented in = research? If so, does this mean that swallows etc. only eat queens and = drones or can they catch a worker unaware and eat it without getting = stung? I worked for a beekeeper once who offered a fellow employee = $50.00 to swallow a worker. The kid tried it - chewed hard then = swallowed, and got stung as he swallowed. The beekeeper refused to pay, = saying he hadn't gotten the whole bee down. 7. On page 392 of the Hive and the Honeybee Schmidt and Buchmann refer = to drone powder made from drone larvae and pupae and its value in = raising beneficial insects. Is anyone doing this commercially? Would a = few varroa mites ruin the powder? 8. Has it been determined how many drone congregations there are in, = say, 10 square miles? 9. After mating, drones are apparently paralyzed with the exertion of = it all, and the wind drag on their wings rips the penis from their body = with an audible pop, and they fall to the ground with nothing but a = smile on their proboscis. Has anyone in the world ever been hit on the = head by a spent drone? If there are drone congregation areas, does it = mean there are corresponding drone graveyard areas i.e. a concentration = of penisless, smiling drones? Is it at Microsoft?=20 Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to respond, Ted Hancock ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 16:56:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Honey labels (was "A question for US beekeepers" In-Reply-To: <200005072250.SAA15844@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In Oregon, and I'm sure other states, in addition to the ingredients (simply "Honey" or "Pure Honey" if that's what's in the bottle) you must also provide your address and the net weight of product. As noted, adulterated honey must be so identified. On Fri, 7 May 2094, JamesCBach wrote: > Betty McAdam asks about how honey is labeled in the US. > > Its been some time since I read the federal regulations so I can't quote > them but I do know that Washington State requires that the ingredients be > written on the label in order of their quantity in the container. It also > requires the label to indicate the presence of foreign honey in the > container.... --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 22:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.Crowell" Subject: Re: New Queen Acceptance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i started several nucs this spring using frames of brood and added queens. All queens were released OK. In some colonies she started laying within a week or so, others are slower to "come around". How long is reasonable to wait before reaching a determination that the queen is not productive and taking steps to replace her? Also, if there is no capped brood left (and no eggs) will the workers accept a new queen readily, or should I introduce her with fresh brood (capped) from a queenright hive? /C.Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:34:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Winter Loss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron Bogansky wrote about winter losses in Pennsylvania: >I was one of the first to report heavy winter losses.... >I am pretty sure the rest of the colonies that perished, most of them had T-mites.... > Bees can stand cold temp, and large clusters on strong colonies will survive just about anything > but wind chill may be a little more stressful.... > But a number of my bees come through winter with small clusters and then build up quite well... > All totalled I had about 50% loss. Other area beekeepers reported > the same or higher. We have had T-mites in this area since '92. I like > others have been treating ever since. What was different this year? ******************* 1. The effect of tracheal mites on bees colonies may vary from year to year, so that _any_ treatment method may work on years when the bees are able to survive t-mites on their own. 2. Colonies infested with t-mites should show crawling bees on the ground for six feet in front of the hive on late winter, warm weather flight days. Some of our eastern Pennsylvania losses are colonies that have not shown signs of t-mite infestation. The colonies seem to waste away in late winter. Doesn't this suggest queen problems? Are our bees superceding in late summer with queens that are not properly mated because we do not have enough (or enough variation in) drones? Are beekeepers who re-queen in autumn with well-mated queens having the same winter losses? Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:48:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: A question for U.S. beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d) [mailto:LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu] Sent: Saturday, May 06, 2000 09:28 AM To: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L: approval required (4C1E32A8) This message was originally submitted by hogbay@KIN.ON.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. You can approve it using the "OK" mechanism, ignore it, or repost an edited copy. The message will expire automatically and you do not need to do anything if you just want to discard it. Please refer to the list owner's guide if you are not familiar with the "OK" mechanism; these instructions are being kept purposefully short for your convenience in processing large numbers of messages. > I believe that the food regulations of the United States require that > ingredients be listed on food packaging, e.g. jars. > > Does this apply to honey? Honey labels allow "Pure Honey" and ingredients need not be listed. Ingredients are "Pure Honey". > do these vary for different varietal honeys? No, inrgedients are still "Pure Honey". However, if marketing a varietal honey, labeling laws are very explicit that the label must read, "Pure Honey, Variety". "Pure Clover Honey" is a violation, "Pure Honey, Clover" is acceptable. > Is a laboratory test required to verify the accuracy of the listed ingredients? I don't believe a laboratory is required for the label. However, if a laboratory test is done and the variety in the jar is not the variety named on the label, the packer is in violation of labeling laws. One of the funniest honey lines I ever heard was from Dave Green speaking at ABF in Norfolk, Va: "Of course there's a lot more sourwood honey sold than produced!" Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:28:50 +0000 Reply-To: cherubini@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: Malathion Spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kendra Brown wrote: > Any information would be gladly accepted, but I should have it > before this Wednesday at the latest. I hope this is not too short notice. > If anybody could tell me about other sources I might find, please do! If you want to get boths sides of the issue you will need to interview the people actually doing the spraying or in charge of it. The interpretation of pesticide label directions is not always a clear cut "this is legal" vs "this is illegal" affair. The views of the people conducting or in charge of the spraying are not being represented on this list so if you want to get to the truth you'll have to take the time to seek it out. Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:53:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Dragonflies in the apiary MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > the number of bees taken (by Dragonflies in the apiary) might well be expected to be minimal. Perhaps so. The real problem arises from the dragonfly that thake the one critical bee (queen on nuptual flights). Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 16:27:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Clapping for swarms/bee math Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tomas Mozer addressed the following (and more): >Ted Hancock wrote: >...This isn't sound biology. In fact I can see both men going off thinking >the other was the reason the swarm landed. Bees don't have ears, so unless >they can feel vibrations through the air they should be indifferent to >noise. I am not going to rule that possibility out though. An article titled >Quantum Honeybees by Adam Frank in the Nov. 1997 issue of Discover magazine >says that mathematician Barbara Shipman's work suggests bees -"....are >somehow sensitive to what's going on in the quantum world of quarks, that >quantum mechanics is as important to their perception of the world as sight, >sound and smell." ( This article says bees may be using six dimensional math >to perform their communication dances. I'm hoping some Ph.D. type can read >that article and explain it to me in one syllable words)... I am a PhD. type and have read that article and the original article as published in a scientific journal. In 1957 the eminent philosopher Karl Popper wrote, "It is easy to obtain confirmations, or verifications, for nearly every theory --- if we look for confirmations ....Confirmations should count only if they are the result of RISKY PREDICTIONS..." (See p. 215 of our 1990 book, ANATOMY OF A CONTROVERSY... Columbia University Press). The notion of banging pans to bring down swarms has been with us for centuries. Consider ten hypothetical cases: One had "success" but the other nine failed. Which of those ten will report the results of their "experiment"? In other words, anecdotes count for little. As regard quarks, we see here only a suggestion about what might happen, with no experimental evidence for support but with much evidence that bee dances don't work as claimed. Hold on folks! Bees are insects. Can they really accomplish feats that surpass what we human beings can do? The bottom line: What will people think about the quark speculation ten or twenty years from now? And how will beekeepers have benefited from that speculation (and any subsequent research) by then? Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept that fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally * accepted." * * Claude Bernard --- 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:00:22 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Anvil label MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following site contains Anvil's label. http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dshm/pesticid/anvil.gif This site says that sumithrin is highly toxic to bees. http://www.greens.org/ny/stop-spraying/sumithrin.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:45:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm pretty convinced that worker bees can move eggs or larva small distances (in their mouths ? )because I've seen brood immediately above the queen excluder, but can they move them from one hive to another? Has anyone experienced a "definitely" queenless hive suddenly producing a queen. I have not but if they can move them small distances one might think that they could move them large distances in extremis. Anyone know of any video footage of bees moving eggs/larvae? Alan Riach Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:25:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Frey Subject: Swarm Traps work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note to let everybody here that swarm traps really work, This is a picture of one i had near my yard that took care of a swarm from a hive that got to big to fast while I was to busy. http://members.aol.com/RollingHillzFarm/swarm1.jpg http://members.ao l.com/RollingHillzFarm/swarm1.jpg Note, this is a brushy mountain trap with phermone lure in the tree 10 feet off the ground 20 yards from my bee yard. PS: Usen Big Johnsons Vac is great but this was alot easier LOL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:12:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae In-Reply-To: <200005091035.GAA26916@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have not experienced workers carrying eggs above a queen excluder since I no longer use them. Instead I use a barrier of 2+inches of capped honey in the top brood chamber and it works for me. However, last week I had occasion to remove a new swarm queen from a NUC I had started from her hive. She had layed two frames of brood with beautiful pattern [I moved her to a children's observatioin hive locally.] I used a queen catcher to do so as I did not trust my gloved fingers. This was a smallish queen and seemed to me to have a slim abdomen. Sure enough, she crawled right out of the spaces with the workers, flew around to the front of the hive and went back in. She did this twice. The third time I took her in the catcher with closed hand to a closed car and let her out, marked her with my ungloved hand, and put her into a transport queen cage, and she is a joy to watch in the new quarters. This is a long way of saying that I would not trust bar type queen excluders to work with every queen; particularly a swarm queen who may not have a full load of sperm. John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:47:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/9/00 8:43:02 AM, jfm6f@VIRGINIA.EDU writes: <> Once again, it's the thorax, not the abdomen, that is hindered by the excluder. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:10:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Swarm Traps work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Garry Frey wrote: > Just a note to let everybody here that swarm traps really work... That's quite a swarm, Garry! Nice to know it didn't fly away. This is the second year that I've used swarm traps, and I really like them. I got my first swarm of the year yesterday myself. However, I wonder if others on the list notice that the swarms very often don't actually enter the trap boxes but stay hanging on the under side, and maybe even start building comb on the under side. This happens about 2/3 of the time for me, and it's OK if I get to them within a day or so. However, if I can't get there in time I have a lot of comb, perhaps with honey and brood already, on the outside of the box. And that is a mess, both to transport and to introduce to a hive. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:24:27 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is a long way of saying that I would not trust bar type queen > excluders to work with every queen; particularly a swarm queen who may not > have a full load of sperm. > John, I agree that a virgin queen not yet laying could go thru todays queen excluders. Most swarms are led by the old queen but even she has a smaller size because of the stop in egg laying prior to swarming i suppose. Also i see the old queen excluder-honey excluder issue trying to raise back up! I have only seen bee-l archives on searches i have done to keep from repeating issues on posts i have made but feel certain the excluder issue has been discussed before. I have seen beekeepers almost come to blows over differences of opinion on the issue at beekeepers meetings. Hope to go and read all bee-l posts next winter when time is not a problem. Happy Beekeeping! Bob Harrison U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:39:27 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mitchell wrote: > > In a message dated 5/9/00 8:43:02 AM, jfm6f@VIRGINIA.EDU writes: > > < was a smallish queen and seemed to me to have a slim abdomen.>> > > Once again, it's the thorax, not the abdomen, that is hindered by the > excluder. Hi John, I don't know about previous discussion but researchers have said at various meetings i have attended that bees DO grow in the first few days after emerging. Most of the talk was about drones so i don't know if the thorax would grow on a queen. I am still trying to figure out why you would super a swarm om the first day of catching. I just allways assumed the queen was kept below the queen excluder because of her size and possibly her abdomen. I quess i learned something. Thanks! Bob Harrison U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:54:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sid Pullinger Subject: Tanging a swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This subject arose on the list some time back and is probably in the archives. Perhaps the following will interest newcomers to the list. The banging of pots and pans to bring down a swarm is a very old superstition and was accepted as false by sensible beekeepers well over a hundred years ago. In England it was known as tanging and bees were kept in small straw skeps. Swarming was encouraged and so frequent. When a swarm emerged the owner or his wife or family would announce the fact to all and sundry by making a noise and following it to claim ownership. Since most swarms settle near the hives they came from it was easy to assume that the noise brought them down. Here is a quotation from an American beekeeper writing in 1849. "When a swarm issues no jangling of bells or rattling of pans should be indulged in. This custom originated from the cottagers of Europe thumping on tin pans when a swarm issued so as to let all know who the owner was since swarms from one cottager's garden might settle in the garden of another". And from Alfred Neighbour, a well known English beekeeper in his day, writing in 1866. "In many country districts it is a time honoured custom for the good folk of the village to commence a terrible noise of tanging with frying pan and key. This is done with the absurd notion that the bees are charmed by the din and will quickly settle. This is quite a mistake. Tanging was originally adopted for a different and far more sensible object, that the owner was anxious to claim the right of following even though it should it alight in a neighbour's garden". He goes on. "A few handfuls of sand or loose soil may be thrown into the air to fall among the winged throng. They mistake this for rain and settle quickly". He then suggests a rather more bizarre idea of using a mirror to reflect the sun's rays into the swarm as this "bewilders the bees and checks their flight". Finally a quotation from the well known ABC of Bee Culture by Root, 1905, and probably in earlier editions. "In the old fashioned box hive days the ringing of bells and the tanging of tin pans was considered essential to cause a swarm to settle -----------at one time this old custom was supposed to be a relic of an old superstition but it is now known that one of the old kings of England passed an edict that whenever a swarm came forth the owner was to ring bells or drum on tin pans to give notice that his bees were out, thus preventing anyone else from claiming them. What was once an old law for an entirely different purpose had crept down through the ages until the old significance is lost". So much for the old timers. In more modern times I believe tests have been carried out which show that bees on the wing are either deaf to man-made noise or if not deaf completely ignore it. Sid P. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:06:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Malathion Spraying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by ruchersdecamargue@WANADOO.FR to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=C213226E) (81 lines) ------------------- From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Servel?=" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Cc: Subject: Re: Malathion Spraying Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:06:16 +0200 1700 Hello Kendra, I am a French beekeeper located in the South of France. I know the problem of mosquitoes spraying problem because our municipality has wanted to kill mosquitoes for our town (Arles) to be able to have more and more tourists. The beekeepers have asked negotiations with the political authorities of the town because they were afraid to loose their bees and job. They promised to listen to us. We encouraged them to use biological control of mosquitoes thanks thanks to bacillus thuringensis. In spite of what they promised us, they phoned us one day that the town and the surrounding country will be sprayed with deltamethrin. Then after a meeting the beekeepers decided to make a spectacular action : we decided to unload an apiary on the main square of the town (27th July 1997). We invited journalists, TV... The success of this demonstration was very interesting, because until now, the municipality has not sprayed the region, and they have begun biological control of mosquitoes population. They were so upset that the radio and TV have talked in negative way of their town, because they were accused to pour toxic chemical on the population. With my best regards, François SERVEL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:25:46 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach wrote: > I'm pretty convinced that worker bees can move eggs or larva small > distances (in their mouths ? )because I've seen brood immediately above > the queen excluder, Hi from Cape Town Well here we often get asked the same question. To find brood above the QE does not necessarily mean that you have bees carrying eggs around (how robust are they anyway?). It definitely does not mean that here. It means automictic teletokous parthenogenesis. Perhaps it is wider spread than just the southern point of Africa after all. What I'm saying is your laying workers have perhaps just learned how to produce fertile female offspring without having mated - perhaps due to re-constitution after meiosis. Apparently this DOES happen in the USA, and is fairly common. References are available. Between hives, I have never heard, but then if you have female laying workers developing after queen loss, this is not a necessity - laying worker colonies simply produce their own queen from a diploid worker - layed egg. QED. Perhaps A.m. capensis has already visited you. Not that we wish this on you mind! Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 21:27:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mitchell wrote: > In a message dated 5/9/00 8:43:02 AM, jfm6f@VIRGINIA.EDU writes: > > < was a smallish queen and seemed to me to have a slim abdomen.>> > > Once again, it's the thorax, not the abdomen, that is hindered by the > excluder. The question still begs an answer: why and how did she get through? Was it a defective queen catcher? Has it been measured up? Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:00:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 May 2000 to 8 May 2000 (#2000-125) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 00-05-09 00:05:55 EDT, you write: << With the naked eye nothing was > visible, but with a 30x > microscope, he was able to see 8-legged light-colored "cooties" on my > eyelashes. >> I recall from a medical-veterinary entomology course in grad school 15 years ago that most (or all) humans harbor a mite that lives in the follicles of our eyelashes. It's apparently harmless, so we didn't spend much time on it. Maybe that's your cootie? Matt Higdon mid MO, mid USA black locust in full bloom yellow sweet clover starting to bloom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:30:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Africanized HBs-Groundnesters? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From an article int he Arizona Republic (April 14th): More than 98 percent of bee colonies discovered in Phoenix house Africanized bees, Martin said. Common locations: on roof lines, at the bottom of sheds, in dog houses and on tree branches. Do AHBs build their nests in the ground (bottom of sheds)? If so, this would be a sure indicator of an AHB colony vs. a European HB colony. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 18:22:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Swarm Traps work In-Reply-To: <200005091416.KAA04346@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > day or so. However, if I can't get there in time I have a lot of comb, > perhaps > with honey and brood already, on the outside of the box. And that is a mess, > both to transport and to introduce to a hive. Ted - Using these swarm frames make this problem a whole lot easier to deal with. http://www.beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 00:58:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: FW: Need advice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Can someone closer to the Africanized penetration into Texas help? I am with the Capital Area Honeybee Stewards, the Austin Texas beekeeping group. This message points out several challenges that we face with bees here in Austin. With limited resources (4 active assistants) we try to handle bee situations. However: 1) There is no city agency that has an employee or department to respond in any way to bee problems. Does your city have one? 2) Travis County Agricultural Extension office has had their urban specialist position vacant for over two years. They have my phone number as the basis for a call out tree with people providing swarm capture, insect identification ("those are wasps which are valuable predators..."), bees in Oak trees 30 feet in the air, bees in swimming pools (drought), bees on hummingbird beeders (drought), bees in walls and attics (we have day jobs and little time to tackle removal) My first call came 28 February and now that it's swarm season I get 8 - 10 calls on my answering machine each evening. In addition, the fire dept who we have worked with on Bee Response Team training has my home and work (thanks to an understanding boss) numbers. If I am contacted directly I respond as I can or refer another beekeeper to capture swarms in their area. I am saddened to hear that this situation did not turn out well. I have emailed the original person directly and given her my phone number but don't know what I have to say. Obviously a small beekeeping group can not handle every situation, but how are things done in other areas? Unless a sample was collected and sent to the Texas A&M Bee Identification lab, no one will ever know if they were Africanized. Last year some of the incidents with multiple stings led to bee testing and only a few actually tested Africanized. I do know that when working on a removal rather than a swarm capture I will be much more aware of my surroundings, will advise people to expect lots of bees in the air, and not leave until I feel the situation is under control. >contacted a beekeeper (hobbyist) who came and set up whatever the boxes >and such are and "smoked" them. He began the process and stayed an hour >or so and then left, meaning to return later. The bees, who had not >yelling that I did not have a LICENSED bee person...B) Is there such a >thing? Don't know of such a thing. Pesticide applicators must be licensed here as everywhere. >The pest control man said they were NOT Africanized or they I never make this statement. Only the Bee Identification lab can. A fellow beekeeper destroyed a hive of "nasty" bees last year even tho the test confirmed them to be Honey Bees...not even a hybrid. > C) Have you heard of this >kind of behavior from honey bees? Bees in an established colony will naturally defend it. Feral bees don't come from the same lineage that a nice bunch of Italians or a good Buckfast hive does. Natural selection has not allowed them to persist in the face of Varroa and Tracheal mites because they are calm, or easy to work. In fact, natural selection may have kept them around because they have some resistance to Varroa or Tracheal mites... I just hope this does not further taint the reputation of bees. As I scan the internet and newswires on the move of the AHB into California and other states I worry that a "kill first ask questions later" tactic may be more damaging in the long run, but if the resources are limited, what can be done. I'd like to hear how other communities handle Bee Responce etc. Carol >I could find no Texas bee clubs, so I hope you get this and can respond. P.S. We are on the internet at http://www.main.org/cahbs/ Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 13:34:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae In-Reply-To: <200005091655.MAA10926@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Once again, it's the thorax, not the abdomen, that is hindered by the > > excluder. > I don't know about previous discussion but researchers have said at > various meetings i have attended that bees DO grow in the first few days > after emerging... Another thing is that a bee is soft when first emerged. Maybe the thorax flexes a bit until the queen gets older and then she can't quite squeeze through. Also, consider cattle. It is usually not that they *cannot* get through a fence that keeps them in -- they often go in and out as calves -- but rather it is the difficulty of getting through that eventually discourages them as they get older and larger. I'm sure the answer to this one is out there somewhere. Someone knows. In a previous post, a member expressed concern about repeating things that may be in the logs. Repetition is not always a bad thing. Each time a subject goes around we learn a bit more -- if the contributors have done their homework, study up a bit, and speak from experience. A good post is a good post, even if it repeats something that has been said before, and especially if it says it differently or considers different circumstances. We do have a turnover of membership, and cannot expect everyone to spend more than a few minutes in the logs before posting. Having said that, however, I personally often do make a point of looking up topics I am writing about in the logs before posting and sometimes use a post from the past as a springboard for discussion. I have discovered that one can paste the URL of previous discussion articles into web pages and even into messages like this. The URL does not change. Here's one I got when searching for 'repetition OR 'repeat': http://listserv.albany.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9708D&L=bee-l&P=R6710 It's interesting how our perspective changes. Please direct any comments on the above mentioned post to allend@internode.net. Not to the list. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.Crowell" Subject: Re: "Tanging' a swarm, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did have a discarded set of cymbals that I was planning to put to good use but ..... Now that "tanging" is debunked, what about the notion that in the event of a beekeeper's demise, his or her family must knock three times on each of his (or her) hives to inform them that the beekeep has "passed", in order to prevent them from swarming? My family is all set to go on this, but perhaps the literature says something else. Four times? /C.Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:41:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 7 May 2000 to 8 May 2000 (#2000-125) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MatHig@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 00-05-09 00:05:55 EDT, you write: > > << With the naked eye nothing was > > visible, but with a 30x > > microscope, he was able to see 8-legged light-colored "cooties" on my > > eyelashes. > >> > > I recall from a medical-veterinary entomology course in grad school 15 years > ago that most (or all) humans harbor a mite that lives in the follicles of > our eyelashes. It's apparently harmless, so we didn't spend much time on it. > Maybe that's your cootie? Hi, The mite Demodex follicularum lives in human hair follicles, but is too small to be likely to be noticed. The insect Phthirus pubis is quite commonly found on eyelashes where it causes itching and irritation. Neither is associated with bees though. I have an apiary where sheep ticks are an annoying problem unless I keep my trousers tucked into my boots. James Morton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 05:34:17 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kirk Waskey Subject: ?? S W A R M C E L L S ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I just got back from 2 weeks vacation and I'm already in trouble. When I left it was snowing and no leaves out so I put a pail of food on my 3 deep hive and the last of the meds. Last night I opened up the hive and had a full deep of dandilion honey, 30 frames covered with bees, lots of brood; but I didn't look for eggs and 14 swarm cells... one opened. The queens were in various stages. A few milky, many white and a few hairy and starting to darken. The open one bothers me. Is there any thing I can do to prevent a swarm? Have they already swarmed? Who leaves under these conditions, the vigin queen or my 1 year old carniolin? How lonf before they leave? Can I do my divide tonight and try and seperate the two queens? Is it possible to try and find the new queen? HELP! Regards, Dick Wm. Waskey Scandia Minnesota ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:48:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: ?? S W A R M C E L L S ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Dick, Sounds like your bees are doing well. With the open queen cell, they could have already swarmed - first check for eggs. You can divide the hive into several nucs with one or two swarm cells for each and let them raise some queens for you if you want. You could also try to split them but if the split has a virgin queen they will not accept a mated queen so you will loose the new queen and still have to wait until the virgin is mated and laying. If they have eggs and a laying queen, splitting the hive and letting the split raise a new queen from a cell usually works and you can reunite the two parts together later if you want or let both develop and overwinter the new queen. This usually works ok if the queen gets mated successfully ( sometimes they disappear ). Good luck and I hope they recover and produce some honey for you. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:25:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: ?? S W A R M C E L L S ?? Comments: cc: kwaskey@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/10/00 5:53:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kwaskey@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > The open one bothers me. Is there any thing I can > do to prevent a swarm? Have they already swarmed? Who leaves under these > conditions, the vigin queen or my 1 year old carniolin? How lonf before > they leave? Can I do my divide tonight and try and seperate the two queens? > Is it possible to try and find the new queen? HELP! Split 'em quick. (You can recombine later, if you don't want increase.) Don't look for queens; you won't find them all anyway. Just make sure each split has a couple cells. Handle frames with cells gently, and don't tip them upside down, in case the developing queens may be damaged. If they haven't already gone up, they will very soon. If they have already cast the prime swarm, they probably will also cast secondary swarms. By splitting you salvage what you have left, before they get away too. Put a super on each split if you can. Then leave them alone for a couple weeks, after which you can sort things out. Dave http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:41:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Phillip Dedlow Subject: bluejays eating bees Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the S.F. bay area of California, and for the second year I daily watch Bluejay(s?) sitting on or near one of my hives snapping bees right out of the air and eating them - sometimes after rubbing the beak and bee on a tree branch. The jay seems not at all bothered and makes many trips a day to eat bees,and the bees don't seem to have gotten aggravated either. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:43:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "john f. mesinger" wrote: > I would not trust bar type queen > excluders to work with every queen; particularly a swarm queen who may not > have a full load of sperm. The queen's spermatheca stays the same size, regardless of mating success - at least in the 200-300 which I examined, dissected, and sectioned when I worked with H.K. Poole. It is held spherically rigid by its outside net of tracheoles and thick outer wall. ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards - formerly insect microsurgeon (1967-73), specializing in spermathecal research Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Agricultural Research Service - USDA Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:37:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pamela Thompson Subject: bee lecture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please post the following notice. If you have any questions or need more information, please contact me. Feeding the Bees: Designing and Creating Honeybee Forage Systems. If you want honey, you must support your bees. Come to the Arnold Arboretum for a slide-illustrated lecture to learn what it is the honeybee needs to sustain honey production throughout the growing season. Dr. George Ayers, a specialist in the development of honeybee-foraging systems, will present an overview of his work and philosophy and suggest beneficial food sources for bees (butterflies and hummingbirds, too.) Dr. George Ayers is a faculty member of the Department of Entomology at Michigan State University. His research specialty is the development of honeybee-foraging systems. During the summer of 2000, he will be at the Arnold Arboretum to identify members of the genus Tilia that are better than average honey producers. Once identified, these trees will play an important role in his bee-foraging systems, which he is developing as unusual sustainable sugar production systems. Dr. Ayers writes a column for the American Bee Journal entitled "The Other Side of Beekeeping," which is dedicated to the topic of honey plants. Fee: $10 Wednesday, June 28/ 7:00-8:00 pm Hunnewell Building Arnold Arboretum, 125 Arborway, Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 To register, call the Arnold Arboretum at 617-524-1718, ext. 162. Pamela Thompson Adult Education Coordinator Arnold Arboretum of Harvard University 125 Arborway Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 phone: 617-524-1718, ext. 162 fax: 617-524-1418 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: Honey bees need to be protected with quarantine Comments: cc: tommozer@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit posted for information/discussion purposes only from: http://news.excite.ca/news/ap/000508/00/bee-act Updated: Mon, May 08 12:40 AM EDT VICTORIA (CP) - Vancouver Island honey bees seem to have won a reprieve from a parasite that could have wiped out colonies and wreaked havoc on crops. But now some beekeepers are worried about a change to provincial laws that will suspend a quarantine currently safeguarding the area's bees. Vigilant testing and treatment of colonies by Island beekeepers has warded off an infestation of blood-sucking, pinhead-sized mites. The Varroa jacobsconi mites attack honeybee larvae in the hive, deforming them and shortening the bees' lives. In 1997, the minute parasites were discovered in about 1,000 area bee colonies. There were fears at the time the entire Island would be infected with the mites in three to five years. The mites will never be eliminated but a united front by Island beekeepers has contributed to their decline. Vic Macdonald, president of the Capital Regional Beekeepers' Association, said the government has let the area's beekeepers down by lifting a quarantine that gave the bees a break from other varieties. Africanized bees and hive beetles, both of which have proven to be problematic elsewhere, are a particular concern, Macdonald said. Since bees can fly just two or three kilometres at a stretch, they would have to make the trip to or from the Lower Mainland by boat or aircraft. "We're trying to push for maintaining of the quality and status of bees on the Island and the federal and provincial agriculture departments are hell bent on taking it away," he said. But a spokeswoman for the provincial Agriculture Ministry said most Island beekeepers support the upcoming changes to the Bee Act. "There has been a lot of consultation in order to make the changes," said Barb Wright. "Most of the commercial beekeepers support the change because it means they can move their hives to the Lower Mainland and back," Wright said. The profile of bees living on the Island is similar to those on the Lower Mainland so there's no immediate threat to bees in the Victoria area, she said. If a threat looms like the parasitic mites, restrictions on the movement of hives can be quickly reinstated, Wright said. "But if there's no immediate threat that requires us to restrict bee movement, we end up facing some trade restrictions that do not benefit anybody." She said the B.C. Honey Producers' Association supports the changes. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:54:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: NZ to eliminate Varroa? Comments: cc: tommozer@hotmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cross-posted from sci.agriculture.beekeeping: Subject:NZ to eliminate Varroa? not yet... Date:05/10/2000 Author:PeterKerr On Monday 8 May more than 200 beekeepers from all over the upper half of the North Island gathered in South Auckland to hear industry leaders, NBA executives, and government scientists outline their present understanding of the Varroa infestation. We saw a bee pathologist from the Ministry of Agriculture present movies and colored presentations on the lifecycle, and the worldwide spread of V. jacobsonii, and give some information on chemical control measures. We saw an epidemiologist from the National Disease Information Centre (responsible to the Minister of BioSecurity) show map projections of the likely future spread of varroa through New Zealand if nothing was done, and if internationally accepted control measures were taken (eg. Apistan). Surprisingly (or perhaps not) the controlled spread was only about 2 years behind the do nothing spread because of spread by ferals and subclinical infection in migratory hives. Amongst the audience were some people frightened for their future, and for the future of the people they employed. There were some people angry that the government appeared to be doing too little, too slowly. But as the epidemiologist pointed out we still have time, varroa spreads slowly on its own, not like say foot and mouth where the virus is wind borne, and all cattle within a given radius and downwind must be slaughtered whether they have visible signs or not. The biggest factor in the spread of varroa (as with AFB) is the actions of beekeepers. So the emphasis has been on stopping hive movement, and checking all sites where bees have been moved to or from. This exercise has been compounded by the discovery of over 8000 unregistered hives on nearly 600 sites owned by about 130 beekeepers. The law requires now (Apiaries Act, and AFB Pest Management Strategy under Biosecurity Act) that all places where bees are kept for more than seven days must be registered as an apiary. Obviously laying 600 prosecutions against 130 persons would be a major diversion from the urgency of the varroa exercise. All sites found have been registered immediately where owners are known, apparently in many cases by numbers on the hives of beekeepers who do have other sites registered. It may be futile to consider action later against these people... The greatest fear is the fear of the unknown. In this case we do not yet know if any other exotic pathogens came in with varroa. The initial official thrust was to establish the extent of spread of varroa. It was only at the insistence of NBA that testing for EFB, tracheal mites and tropilaelaps was started on samples from the apparent centre of infestation. Lab results will not be back till the end of this week. It is assumed that any virus for which varroa is a vector will be present The epidemiologist seemed to favor an attempt at eradication. When pressed for an estimate of the chances that this could be successful she gave a figure that, while high, was somewhat less than 100%. The pathologist wanted people to prepare to live with varroa. When asked, if eradication was successful, how long would it be before varroa was back again, he became optimistic, and suggested that since it had taken at least 20 years for it to get here, it might take up to 20 years before it came back again... It was estimated that it could cost an extra NZ$14 per hive for Apistan for the most efficient and successful beekeepers. Those whose management techniques were not up to scratch would find it costing more than $14 per hive, and some may find other lines of business more profitable... The Animal Remedies Act requires that any substance administered to an animal for medicinal purposes must be registered as a remedy. This is to control such thing as efficacy, toxicity to other species, and residual quantities and withholding periods in the case of food producing animals. Formal registration of Apistan is still 6 to 8 weeks away. Overseas use, registration, or lab tests are not sufficient. Some of the tetsting must be done here under local conditions. Presumably thymol and oil of wintergreen will also need to be registered... A positive note was sounded by a well known local honey producer, that most of the rest of the world has varroa, and is still producing honey, more of it, more cheaply than us. The best thing to do in the meantime was to get on with the business of beekeeping. If eradication is chosen, ferals, and all unregistered hives, will be "depopulated" by slow release poison baits laid at 1 kilometre intervals over the affected area. Registered hives would be killed on the spot, woodware with the possible exception of brood frames could be re-used. The cost of this is known and is included in the figure of NZ$50 million published in local papers last week. Horticultural pollination services for next season would be supplied by hives from outside the area being brought in, then "depopulated" to be refilled for the following season. Some would remain as controls to determine the success or otherwise of eradication. Further unknowns: although V. jacobsonii will die within 5 days without a live bee host, it is not known how long they can live without reproducing when carried on bumble bees. Unknown is the extent of pollination of orchards, pasture and crops such as onions and pumpkins, by feral bees. One estimate is of an 80% reduction in clover content of dry hill country pasture when varroa eliminates ferals. Further tracing continues of hive movements near Te Puke, 60 km outside the orginal infected zone, following the discovery of an unregistered dump site for pollination hives which had come from the infected area... Border control has declined in the past 15 years with "restructuring", staff and budget cuts, and the belief by treasury gnomes that random audit can be as effective as continual control. Less than 5% of shipping containers entering NZ are now routinely inspected for Biosecurity hazards. Ultimately the decision to eradicate or live with varroa will be a political one. Cabinet will decide with the advice of their officials, who are still gathering the numbers... Disclaimer: this is not an official report, it is what one beekeeper has seen and heard. NZ National Beekeepers' Association posts varroa news at http://www.nba.org.nz/news.html NZ Ministry of Agriculture media releases are at http://www.maf.govt.nz/MAFnet/index/Varroa.html -- Peter Kerr School of Music University of Auckland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:52:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: 180% increase in bee complaints in S. CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/10/00 7:06:21 AM, dewsnap@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: << Obviously a small beekeeping group can not handle every situation, but how are things done in other areas? >> Not very well I gather from the following article. Ignorant fear about honeybees seems to be rampant in the land of Hollywood. I gather from what follows there is a kill-on-sight attitude, if not a law, for honeybees in S. California now that Africanized honeybees have arrived. Some problems: 1) There is a glaring (to me) error of accuracy, on the part of both the vector control people and the reporter. The "bees" are building their "hive" in the roots of a magnolia tree. Honeybees don't nest in the ground, unless this is a behavioral characteristic of Africanized honeybees I'm not aware of. The vector control people are either ignorant, or they are purposely misrepresenting the type of insect to mug for the reporter who is doing a story on "killer bees." 2) Why are these state-government "professionals" dousing hives with pesticides in the middle of the day, and then leaving a "bucket of pesticides" to come back a second time and kill the foragers in a few days? In addition to being wasteful (2 visits), it creates an extremely dangerous situation for several days as the returning foragers are extremely volatile! This is a terribly irresponsible situation, and leaves the city wide-open to a lawsuit. It also will leave an indelibly negative imprint on the minds and attitudes of people living in the surrounding area about the behavior of honeybees. 3) I find the journalist's flip characterization of the pesticide applicators' work destroying bee hives as glamorous and glorious to be offensive, gross. The part about these guys standing around a woman's yard trying to pressure her to come on her property and kill a swarm sounds like abuse of their mandate as state workers. 4) The only California victim of the "killer" bees, according to this article, was a Long Beach beekeeper who was stung 50 times. Are there any beekeepers out there who have had a bad day with their European bees and been stung dozens of times? The point is, this happens to beekeepers. The story is more indicative of the hazards of beekeeping rather than the hazards of AHB, especially for those among us who don't always wear a full suit. It is highly unlikely to happen to somebody who isn't messing around with a bee hive. This is also a classic example of why beekeeps who mug for the cameras with minimal (or no) protective gear are irresponsible to set the example. 5) "These are the golden days for bee workers, a time of high public appreciation and elevated status among their pest control brethren." Is this reporting, or a public relations campaign? Personally, I receive elevated status among my pest control brethren when I give them a jar of honey for sending me all those swarm calls. >From Los Angeles Times April 24, 2000 HEADLINE: STING OPERATIONS; CALLS TO PEST CONTROL TEAMS MULTIPLY WITH FEAR OF AFRICANIZED BEES BYLINE: SUE FOX "Holly Ziman threw open her front door before the men in the white mesh suits had knocked, before they'd even trundled across her tidy lawn. "'Are you here for the bees?' she asked anxiously. "We didn't know whether they were African or regular or what!" "The Bee Team, a pesticide-toting duo accustomed to such fervent greetings, was unfazed. Ever since the infamous Africanized honeybee arrived in Los Angeles County in late 1998, the buzz around town has kept the pair as busy as the bees they chase. "Bee-related complaints skyrocketed from 31 calls in 1998 to more than 5,550 in 1999, according to the Greater Los Angeles County Vector Control District. The agency, a state-authorized district funded by property taxes, recently hired 10 workers to keep up with the demand. "And as the weather warms up again, hundreds of cries for help will be heard. "'Ten or 15 years ago, if people saw bees in a bush, they thought, "Oh, how cute, the bees are pollinating my flowers,"' said Richard Baxter, a Bee Team member who covers the San Fernando Valley, as he zipped on his sting-proof hood for another call. 'Now, they're very concerned about Africanized bees.' "Last April, agriculture officials declared that Los Angeles County had been colonized by the aggressive bees--ending any hopes of eradication. "Despite their fearsome "killer bee" moniker, they rarely kill people—but they do attack in larger numbers and pursue people more persistently than European bees, officials say. "Since 1990, six people have died from Africanized bee stings in the United States, said Robert Donley, director of pest detection for the county's Agriculture Department. The only California victim was a Long Beach beekeeper who was stung more than 50 times last August. "'If people weren't so aware of the danger , I think we'd see a lot more multiple stinging incidents and possibly more fatalities,' Donley said. "To the eye, Africanized bees look just like their European counterparts, experts say. But their genes are dominant. Ever since some Africanized bees escaped from a Brazilian laboratory in the late 1950s, they have been steadily moving north, taking over the wild bee populations as they go. "Experts now assume Africanized honeybees to be so widespread here that county officials no longer test bees to confirm their genetic origins. Ziman said she and her husband contacted the pest control district as soon as they noticed bees buzzing around the roots of their magnolia tree. With neighborhood children scooting past on bikes and two dogs of their own, the couple didn't want to take any chances. "'It's been a concern ever since we saw them,' Ziman said, ducking as a stray bee whizzed by. "Aaaagghh! There's one flying over here," she shouted to the bee squad. "I don't like this." The art of bee removal, at least as practiced by vector control workers, is fairly straightforward. If the hive is exposed--say, hanging from a branch--workers spray it with pesticide and yank it down. If it's hidden inside a tree, they spray it and stuff the knot-holes with cotton batting, trapping the bees inside. "Jeremy Uhlenkott opted for the latter method at the Ziman house, jamming the cotton into the cracks between the tree roots with a screwdriver. "'It's hard to tell if it's all sealed up,' he said. If not, the bees will find another exit route. Even if the holes are blocked, plenty of bees that were out foraging will eventually return, only to find their ransacked hive. So Baxter and Uhlenkott leave a bucket filled with yet more pesticide behind, promising to return in a few days. "For guys who spend their days slugging it out with swarms of angry bees, they're pretty cheerful. These are the golden days for bee workers, a time of high public appreciation and elevated status among their pest control brethren. "'People seem to like us more when we show up for bees,' Baxter said. "The Vector Control District also handles mosquito and other insect abatement. While trolling through backyards looking for stagnant water may not seem as glamorous as bee-busting, the effort keeps mosquitoes from breeding and possibly transmitting diseases such as St. Louis encephalitis. "'With the bees, your adrenaline's going,' said Wesley Collins, who is currently on mosquito patrol. "But for me, I personally feel like I'm serving a better need with the mosquitoes. No one likes being bitten by a mosquito." "Besides, working the bee shift isn't all glory. Both Baxter and Uhlenkott have been stung on duty. "Not everyone is glad to see the Bee Team roll up in its white pickup truck, either. Sometimes people yell at them to leave the poor bees alone, Baxter said. "Occasionally, homeowners will insist that they don't have a bee problem, even when a hive is clearly visible. On a recent call in Valley Village, for example, a woman swore that her gardener already had removed the hive in her yard. The team was forced to turn away, even though they could see the bees swarming around a tree. "'We'll probably be back here next week,' Uhlenkott said." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:19:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Africanized HBs-Groundnesters? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Do AHBs build their nests in the ground (bottom of sheds)? If so, this would > be a sure indicator of an AHB colony vs. a European HB colony. Wherever the fancy takes them, but preferably 1.8m (6 foot) or higher. Catching of swarms in the Far eastern part of South Africa takes place with decoy hives hung in eucalyptus trees at 3m or more. An old queen might not make it all the way (read last weeks postings) and then drops below target where she simply stays if a convenient cavity (or access to the same cavity) is found. Greetings from Cape Town Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:58:43 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Fine Filtration(Ultra-Filtration) of honeys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It appears that in the European Union, the next directive controlling the honey standard will effectively allow for the very fine filtration of honeys- commonly referred to as Ultra-filtrated here in France. It has been argued for by the so called"Anglo-saxon" lobby, i.e. countries in the north of the Union. Several countries are totally against the idea that this process should become a norm. for honeys that appear before the consumer. It has been argued that it is a process that allows for the removal of un-wanted debris from honey(The conditioners lobby). It has also been argued that it is the process that will allow for more fraudulent merchandise onto the market, since the removal of such items as pollen grains from the honey limits the proof of geographical origin and/or honey type. As producers, what are the opinions held regarding this process when applied to honey. Is it generally accepted by beekeepers in the States and else where, or considered as an excellent wheeze to be used by conditioners of honey? Do conditioners really require this process to make their production simpler? Has it been put in place/being put in place due to demand from consumer?, or is it due to "responsible" bureaucrats insisting on again a super clean product -one in this case, when relating to the definition of what honey is, results in the final product no longer being honey. Honey put simply is a product created by bees from, from which nothing may be added or taken away.( hence therefore the labeling of Honey as "Pure" honey is technically incorrect - if the product is added to /or something taken away , it is nolonger honey!!). Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:34:57 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: NZ to eliminate varroa Comments: cc: IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Thomas Mozer writes a most interesting e mail under the above subject. I think that the following sentence is of prime importance here. >The epidemiologist seemed to favor an attempt at eradication. When pressed >for an estimate of the >chances that this could be successful she gave a figure that, while high, >was somewhat less than >100%. Let me put some of our experience in Ireland before the list members. Whan varroa was first discovered in Ireland in 1998, strident efforts were made by our Department of Agriculture to eliminate the pest and unfortunately to no avail. Whilst I do not in any way denigrate the efforts made by the Department, it must be said in hindsight that their good natured work came to naught. In fact, seasoned observers of varroa abroad forecasted that this would be the case and they were proved to be correct. It is impossible to eliminate varroa - you must treat for it. I must say that the efforts by our Department of Agriculture had some negative though unintended effects. They suggested to many, that varroa could be stopped and thereby inculcated in many minds a belief that beekeepers did not have to do anything about it, The Government measures would solve the problem. Please! let me say to our friends in New Zealand. You now have varroa, in fact you have probably had it for up to three years, and you will never again be without it. Gear yourself up to treat for it lest you start losing colonies wholesale. Do not listen to those who may preach a gospel which you may wish to believe - it will be your undoing. I am sending a copy of this e mail to the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:41:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: Bee transporting of eggs or larvae In-Reply-To: <200005101746.NAA15607@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It just shows what happens when one speculates from observations to causes that are unknown. The only thing I did think I knew was that queens' shrink and expand abdomens at different periods in their lives. Following another suggestion, I sampled the spacing of a rod style queen excluder I used to use: 4mm in every case. Then I measured all of the spaces in the queen excluder I have used several years. Every one is 3mm wide. The workers came through fast and she was not far behind - twice! She may look anorexic but she laid two beautiful full frames of brood before I captured her and she is now laying brood for children's delight in her observation hive. So I am still convinced that standard sized queen excluders will not work with every queen - some are just different John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:13:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Is Anyplace Safe from Varroa? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The varroa news from NZ is hot these days. I wonder if those buying bees from other apparently varroa-free parts of the world have been checking to see if their packages are truly varroa-free, or just trusting that there is no varroa in imported packages from these areas. As for us, until now, we have just been taking the seller's word for it. I remember how, here in Alberta, varroa was found in some NZ bees a year or two back; then the finder blamed his sampling methods since he could not find more. In retrospect, he may have well been the one who first spotted the NZ varroa. Varroa is funny that way. It shows up, then further sampling may not reveal it for a long time, but it is there. As those who have been following my progress in my diary may know, we have some yards which received package bees from a certified varroa-free source. They were installed in a fairly remote location in hives with foundation only. The other day one of our workers mentioned that he saw signs of varroa, but though nothing further of it until we were talking and someone pointed out that those particular bees *should* be mite-free. Although we were not completely scrupulous about ensuring that no trucks or persons with bees from our other hives were in contact -- it was not a big priority -- we cannot think of any obvious ways that (m)any mites could have been transmitted to these hives in the four weeks since they were installed. The worker who thought he saw signs of mites returned to the site and did a 24 hour mite drop and came up with the two mites you can see in my diary. It is hard to be sure they are fresh, but they have the proper colour. One seems slightly immature. If so, the mites must have gotten in in the first week or so. The thing that strikes me is that if someone spotted the signs of mites by eye in the first place, either he is tremendously lucky and observant -- or there must be many more. Our provincial inspection people will be considering this and may -- or may not -- have some comments, but since the situation is uncontrolled, nothing can be proven very easily one way or the other. In the meantime, those who are blissfully thinking they have no exposure to varroa because they bought mite-free packages may want to get some Apistan and sticky boards and read up on varroa. It's not whether the varroa-free areas will someday have varroa, but when. If no one else is checking, a buyer may be the first to discover varroa in a far distant country. allen -- Diary and pictures at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ Cell size, worker bee size, package installation & performance, winter loss, Fondant feeding, Pierco vs. Permadent, unwrapping bees, AFB, varroa, protein patties and more... Over 1000 served ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 19:07:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It should be no problem to eliminate varroa in NZ all they need to do is kill all the insects capable of hosting it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:04:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett wrote: > Thomas Mozer writes a most interesting e mail under the above subject. > > Let me put some of our experience in Ireland before the list members. > > Please! let me say to our friends in New Zealand. > > You now have varroa, in fact you have probably had it for up to three years, > and you will never again be without it. Gear yourself up to treat for it > lest you start losing colonies wholesale. > > Do not listen to those who may preach a gospel which you may wish to believe > - it will be your undoing. Tom, so far as I can tell, you speak the truth, and I hope someone hears you. I wish there was a better alternative than treating, but after hearing 2 days of research at our recent meeting -> http://198.22.133.109/ - I can't see a way out of the resistance whirlpool, either. The 8000 unregistered hives reported lately means to me that the gov't of NZ is not a big part of many beekeepers lives, and so I assume that they will make their own decisions about moving as they usually have. What do you suppose is next, checkpoints on the back roads ? ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier", part-time mobile sting target Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Agricultural Research Service - USDA 2000 E. Allen Road Tucson, Arizona 85719 32.27495 N 110.9402 W http://198.22.133.109/ http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 18:34:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Bees moving eggs or larva MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello from Casper, Wy I use free flying queenless starter-rearers for raising queen cells. They consist of a feeder, a frame of honey, a newly sealed brood frame, a grafting frame, a pollen frame, a older brood frame (mostly hatched) and another honey frame. Initially, it is stocked with sealed brood and young nurse bees from a support hive and batches of cells are grafted at 3 and 4 day intervals. Once a week the rearer is reinforced with an additional frame of sealed brood and nurse bees. The older frame of mostly hatched brood is removed and the frame of brood closer to the feeder is moved to replace it. A new frame of sealed brood from the support hive is placed closer to the feeder. The pollen frame is refreshed with trapped pollen pellets and sprayed with a light sugar syrup. Initially I checked all frames for spurious queen cells and would cut any I found. After several cycles I would check only the rotated frames and ignored the two honey frames. However, every year after about a month of grafting, I would loose a batch or two of cells from one of the rearers due to an emerged virgin. The location of the hatched queen cell was always on the back side of the honey frame next to the feeder. A small area would be cleared of honey and a queen cell located there. No other eggs or unsealed larva except the grafted cells could be found in the rearer. I now check the honey frames as well and find at least one rearer out of 16 total that wants to rear a queen cell on the back side of the honey frame each year. Laying worker(parthenogenesis)? I don't know, but would guess that the bees moved one of my grafted larva to a less disturbed location of their choosing. Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:08:02 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The 8000 > unregistered hives reported lately means to me that the gov't > of NZ is not a big > part of many beekeepers lives, and so I assume that they will > make their own > decisions about moving as they usually have. Interestingly, in this 'deregulated environment', it isn't the government alone that is responsible for this. Our industry's Pest Management Strategy for AFB places the legal onus on beekeepers to register apiary sites. Failure to do so means the loss of Approved Beekeeper status, which means a considerable $ savings for most beekeepers. You can find out more about this at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/pms I guess you could still say it is a 'government thing' in the sense that it is the law, it is a regulation. But in the case of NZ beekeepers, the law is there because the industry asked for it to be so. And, for the greatest part, we choose to comply with 'our' law... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:07:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: CHALKBROOD SURVEY In-Reply-To: <200005081553.LAA04676@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I know that chalkbrood is not the major bee health problem for most subscibers here but it can be devastating in some regions - Greece or Bulgaria for example. In many other countries the incidence may be relatively localised, yet serious. Noone has yet figured out just why, so far as I'm aware. Climatic factors are of course important but there are other undetermined cues too. Vita (Europe) Limited has been examining a biological product, from University Research, which has great potential in the control of chalkbrood. It can be introduced with early spring feed so is simple to use. We are still collecting data so it's a bit early too early to talk of a product. However, it we may be able to start the introduction of this treatment by the middle of next year. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited Brook House, Alencon Link Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7RD UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: Fine Filtration(Ultra-Filtration) of honeys In-Reply-To: <200005102220.SAA24674@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For what it is worth: people in VA, a high allergy state; who suffer from pollen allergies, like my comb honey because , they say, it contains local pollens to which they are allergic. All I know is it tastes good. John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:51:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Resistant varroa? In-Reply-To: <200005110101.VAA27109@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is Varroa actually showing resistance or does it just appear that way after treated hives are reinfected? Has anyone actually taken supposedly resistant Varroa and tested them to see whether they are? In my very limited experience, I'm inclined to think there are other, less flattering explanations: 1) they guy down the road who doesn't treat his bees at all - bees which infected our hives after we removed strips according to label even though the weather remained warm for another couple of weeks; 2) untreated "feral" hives which sent scouts and robbers into the neighborhood; 3) once used strips used again lacking the punch to do the job. I'm sure there are other scenarios. On Wed, 10 May 2000, John Edwards wrote: --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:24:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fine Filtration(Ultra-Filtration) of honeys MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/00 6:42:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jfm6f@VIRGINIA.EDU writes: > > For what it is worth: people in VA, a high allergy state; who > suffer from pollen allergies, like my comb honey because , they say, it > contains local pollens to which they are allergic. All I know is it tastes > good. The thing I have wondered all along is whether the allergy relief the anecdotal evidence points to is from the pollen contained in local honey or the antioxidants which seem to suffer less from the minimal processing local honey undergoes as compared to the heating filtration and storage of the big packing houses. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Tom Barrett wrote: > ... Whan varroa was first discovered in Ireland in 1998, strident efforts were > made by our Department of Agriculture to eliminate the pest and > unfortunately to no avail. strident: to make a harsh noise; harsh sounding: GRATING; also SHRILL I have to agree with Tom, "strident efforts...unfortunately to no avail". My recollection was that initially, hives were being burned and beekeepers were being compensated until the D of A discovered that varroa was far more widespread than they originally thought. It seemed to me that the D of A came to the realization that they couldn't afford to compensate all the beekeepers for all the burned hives! During my visit, the gentleman from the D of A commented that there were known infestations in Slago which would be "treated" once the beekeeper harvested his honey. By this time burning had ceased, and the D of A's attitude had gotten lax to the point that they'd let the infestation go until after harvest. In contrast, in New Zealand when varroa was first detected it was quickly determined the infestation was more widespread than initially feared. Fortunately, NZ skipped the burning phase. The message at Gormanston last summer, and a lesson for NZ all beekeepers is that there IS life after varroa. The mite will not be contained, neither will it be eradicated. Beekeepers must adapt and learn to live with the problem. Limiting movement of bees may slow the spread, but IMO, limiting beekeepers is like trying to hold water in your hands, at least in the States. Rather than focusing on containment/eradication, a futile attempt, beekeepers in newly colonized varroa territory will be best served learning how to adapt to the mites' presence. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:00:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Resistant varroa? Maybe not... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/00 6:22:01 AM, ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG writes: <> 4) Lack of hygiene on the part of the beekeeper in how he/she handles swarms of unknown origin. I installed two such swarms this season, a week after removing my Apistan strips from the other hives. With disoriented bees wandering every which way into other hives, I vowed to change my hiving procedure in the future so that all such swarms are introduced (quarantined) in one designated apiary, perhaps the one with the "resistant" Russian queens, if the resistance turns out to be real. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:21:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Resistant varroa? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Richard and everyone, ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG 05/11/00 02:51AM >>> wrote: Is Varroa actually showing resistance or does it just appear that way after treated hives are reinfected? Has anyone actually taken supposedly resistant Varroa and tested them to see whether they are? Yes, the varroa have been tested and they are in fact highly resistant to fluvalinate. Tests were done by USDA-ARS personnel here in MN in the fall of 1998 using fluvalinate coated vials which clearly showed that we had fluvalinate resistant varroa mites. This is one of the major reasons that the coumaphos strips were approved for use under the sect 18 emergency use. The testing was done after the beekeeper and inspector found very high varroa levels in colonies where new apistan strips had been installed about 3 weeks before inspection. The treatment was clearly not working and the testing showed that it was not a problem with the strips but resistance on the part of the varroa. I have seen similar cases of failure of apistan treatment in the field since and in every case coumaphos treatment has worked very quickly in controlling the varroa. My concern is how long before we have varroa resistant to other treatments? From the experience in medicine with antibiotic resis! tance multiple drug resistance appears much more quickly than resistance to the first antibiotic. The treadmill turns faster at every turn. blane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:40:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees underground MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John Mitchell wrote "... Honeybees don't nest in the ground...." Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have agreed with John. I would have adamntly insisted that honeybees simply do not dwell underground. However, last summer while sightseeing in Ireland after the FIBA meeting in Gormanston I happened upon a colony of bees who were doing just that! In a graveyard at Round Tower (near Gort) there was a very active colony of bees in the ground under a very large, flat, horizantal gravestone. I took many pictures, but unfortunately, given the high grass growing around the stone and the lichens growing on the stone, it is very difficult to make out the bees as the came and went into the ground. The bees would land on the stone and crawl into the ground. One can only imagine what the comb was like! Aaron Morris - thinking Stephen King should see this one! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Mites, bee and human Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:41 PM 5/10/2000 +0100, James Morton wrote: >The mite Demodex follicularum lives in human hair follicles, but is too >small to be likely to be noticed. The insect Phthirus pubis is quite >commonly found on eyelashes where it causes itching and irritation. >Neither is associated with bees though. Yes, I was aware of the usual eyelash mites, and my eight legged cooties can't be insects, but my infestation happens only when I work on certain colonies, and has happened repeatedly. As soon as we pass this spell of cold weather, I'll put the menthol to those colonies, and see if they still get me infested. Thanks to all for your ideas, Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:47:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Bees underground Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" European honey bees do not nest only above ground. In our study of feral colonies on Santa Cruz Island, about 15% of them were in the ground --- many in the bole under scrub oak trees and some in clay banks. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept that fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally * accepted." * * Claude Bernard --- 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:49:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Subterranean bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/11/00 9:39:43 AM, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have agreed with John. I would have adamntly insisted that honeybees simply do not dwell underground. >> Are there any references in the beekeeping literature, scientific or popular, to bees nesting underground? We now have several anecdotes on bee-l—I suspect if you get together a large enough group of beekeepers every possible behavior will have been seen at least once—but does this occur with enough frequency that newspapers should issue public health warnings about ground-nesting honeybees? If so, then most of the books and articles I've read (as I recall) that describe colony-nesting behavior have given overly narrow, inadequate descriptions by failing to mention this. Another problem here is that if people get panicky about groundnesting insects that resemble bees, then populations of other beneficial insects—like bumblebees—could be knocked off. Let's put the question another way: I occassionally take swarm and colony removal calls. If somebody called me about a colony of groundnesting honeybees, I would dismiss it out of hand and tell them they've got wasps or bumblebees. Would you take time to take a call like that (assuming somebody isn't paying you to take calls like that, whether they're honeybees or not). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:29:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Whan varroa was first discovered in Ireland in 1998, strident efforts were >made by our Department of Agriculture to eliminate the pest and >unfortunately to no avail. >Whilst I do not in any way denigrate the efforts made by the Department, it >must be said in hindsight that their good natured work came to naught. >In fact, seasoned observers of varroa abroad forecasted that this would be >the case and they were proved to be correct. >It is impossible to eliminate varroa - you must treat for it. In Europe and America we failed to control the spread of the mite due to many factors. The more isolated areas may have a chance, although it is a small one. The first problem you face is what are you going to treat with? If the mites are already resistant to Apistan then you are going to need to start with Cumaphos, but with some mites now showing resistance to that then you are out of luck with the strips. Your next choice is Formic acid. Climate plays a big role in how well that works so there is still no magic bullet. It is going to be very expensive to fix this problem. A large, bee-free buffer zone would need to be established and a lot of work to locate feral colonies would have to be done. It could even require a total "reset" of the population from a clean source. I do not know how much of the NZ food supply depends on honey bee polination, but if the number is over 10% I would sure look for a long term solution while one is still available before putting the ability of NZ to feed itself at risk. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:36:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Yuuki Metreaud Subject: Russian Queens Hello all, With the release of the Russian queen which is touted to be somewhat resistant to Varroa, I am curious as to what people's experiences have been with this genetic stock so far. I know that it is early but in my opinion it is never to early to see if this resistance exists and if it can be improved. I am also curious as to the other qualities of this bee which is very important if it is to be used widely. Is it gentle? How well does it winter? Is it a good honey producer, etc. I would be grateful for any educational information. Also does anyone have any further information, other than that on the Carl Haydn website, on the supposedly resistant/tolerant stock they are working on in Arizona. All the best and happy beekeeping, Yuuki ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:18:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Subterranean bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mitchell wrote: > In a message dated 5/11/00 9:39:43 AM, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: > > << Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have agreed with John. I would > have adamntly insisted that honeybees simply do not dwell underground. >> > > Are there any references in the beekeeping literature, scientific or > popular, to bees nesting underground? I have been hesitant to engage in this discussion, because I no longer have the specific numbers. I can tell you this - before AHBs in the Tucson area, the water department (for 500,000 to 750,000 people) had basically no reports of bees nesting in residential water meter boxes. These "boxes" are cement or plastic, about the size of a nuc, and with the lid of heavy metal or plastic at ground level. There is a slot in the lid for lifting, about 3/4 X 2 inches. After AHB arrived, their reports shot up to several thousand per year, and they began advising homeowners to place a small stone over the opening. With the quick drop in temperature as you descend into the desert soil, these boxes are reasonable domiciles for bees, even with a small water seep for evaporative cooling sometimes. In humid climates, this ground nesting probably would not work out well for the bees. In the past, I have very seldom seen bees in ground squirrel burrows (in soil), although these are common here. Occasionally, when hives are moved or a queen is dropped when shaking bees, the stragglers will accumulate in a burrow to escape the sun, but they soon die out. As Dr. Wenner says, feral bees, especially on slopes are an entirely different subject, and commonly nest in holes and on cliffs. ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Agricultural Research Service - USDA Tucson, Arizona 85719 32.27495 N, 110.9402 W http://198.22.133.109/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:19:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Subterranean bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 5/11/00 1:29:14 PM, edwards@TUCSON.ARS.AG.GOV writes: << After AHB arrived, their reports shot up to several thousand per year >> That is a dramatic change in the behavior of the feral bee population. Are you aware if any testing was done to confirm that those colonies were Africanized? Dr. Wenner, Thank you for providing the research observations. Survival on an island with limited nesting opportunities could have forced the European bees to adapt to whatever cavity presented itself. Have you made observations of Africanized honeybees, and whether they are any more likely to nest in the ground than the European bees? It might not be enough to draw a conclusion with scientific certainty—and it sounds like exceptions like Aaron's Irish grave-dwelling colony exist—but in regards to new AHB incursions around the United States, bees that go to ground could be a behavioral marker for Africanization, and, if this is accurate, pest control personnel and beekeepers should react accordingly. In regards to the article in the Los Angeles Times, it seems that the "Bee Team" may have been exterminating an Africanized hive after all. However, I still found the tone objectionable and the method of removal unnecessarily hazardous. Dr. Wenner, being located in Southern California, can you offer any other remarks on how communities are responding to the AHBs. Didn't you report awhile back that Santa Barbara has a beekeeping ban, and have any more beekeeping bans been enacted? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Subterranean bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Most of the literature used the term "cavity nesting" for honey bees. If they find a suitable cavity in the ground it may be used but there seems to be some preference for cavities some distance above the ground. Shallow caves and ledges on cliffs can be considered to be "above ground" conpared to the bottom of the cliff. It is pretty well documented that honey bees used caves and rock ledges in arid areas with few large trees. Now the literature also indicates the the AHB are less selective in nest sites than EHB using smaller cavities. These smaller cavities occur in a wide range of places making more acceptable nest sites available to AHB. The use of cavities in a range of sizes and locations relative to the ground allows honey bees to inhabit some areas with good floral resources that lack suitable nest cavities inside trees. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > ... I am curious as to what people's experiences have been with this genetic stock so far.... Well, so far I haven't been able to get any. Breeders are having a problem getting queen cells accepted and virgins mated. It appears that the Russian stock is "hesitant" to interact with non-Russian lineage or vice-versa. Cell builders are not accepting Russian larvae and Russian virgins are reluctant to breed with non-Russians. Furthermore, in the first year of "general availability", open mated Russian daughter queens (if you can get any) will probably have been mated with non-Russian drones, hence their offspring will be mongrels. There is an article about this in this month's (perhaps last month's) ABJ. But back to the original problem, I have so far not been able to get any Russian stock. Breeders are finding that they have to build up pure Russian cell builders and that's putting them far behind in their orders. The long anticipated arrival is not yet here. Aaron Morris - Thinking "The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming!", but not soon enough. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:34:04 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fascinating aspect of this thread is the title. It is a definitive statement -- yet no decisions have been made. As a lecturer in Management at an NZ University, I have been totally impressed with MAF's problem solving process to date. They are gathering as much information about the extent of the problem, the options for solving the problem and the likely outcomes. From the outside looking in it seems like a classical approach. Again, as an outsider looking in, and one who has read and listened widely over the topic, it seems to me that the biggest handicap to eradication of varroa is not the varroa, it is human nature. Flouting laws and commonsence and moving hives via backroads to beat road blocks seems to be the norm where ever controls have been attempted. It makes one wonder whether these beekeepers make their money from products of the hive or bootleg. Ron Law ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:36:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Handling Swarms That May Have Varroa In-Reply-To: <200005111318.JAA08501@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 4) Lack of hygiene on the part of the beekeeper in how he/she handles swarms > of unknown origin. I installed two such swarms this season, a week after > removing my Apistan strips from the other hives. With disoriented bees > wandering every which way into other hives, I vowed to change my hiving > procedure in the future so that all such swarms are introduced (quarantined) > in one designated apiary... One measure that should reduce varroa threat from such swarms is to hive them with Apistan, then keep them in a *completely* dark cool place like a garage or basement room for several days. Any frame of brood given to hold them should be very young, or eggs only, so varroa has no place to hide while the Apistan is doing its job. In a newly hived swarm there is no sealed brood for at least a week unless they are given brood, so all mites are exposed to Apistan and virtually all mites should be eliminated by the end of several days -- assuming they are indeed susceptible to fluvalinate-tau. After three to five days, the bees can be situated any appropriate place outdoors and the strips can be removed -- or left in according to circumstance. Assuming also that the bees are contained from the time of pick-up to the time of release after treatment, the chance of spreading varroa to other hives is nil. Moreover the swarm cannot abscond if it is in a hive in a completely dark place. By the time it is taken outdoors -- preferably as darkness falls, it will have settled down and the queen will be laying well -- unless she is a virgin, in which case, she can then fly to mate. allen -- Diary and pictures at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ Cell size, worker bee size, package installation & performance, winter loss, Fondant feeding, Pierco vs. Permadent, unwrapping bees, AFB, varroa, protein patties and more... Over 1000 served ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:30:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Supering swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison asks why anyone should want to super a swarm on the first day. The reason is a quick super of honey if there is a flow. If the swarm is hived on foundation and there is a QE then a super of drawn comb the bees will have no brood to feed for 3 days or more. Some of them will be drawing comb for the queen to lay in and she will soon be laying as fast as they can draw. In the meantime there will be thousands of bees with nothing to do but forage and nowhere to put the nectar than the super you have thoughtfully provided. This only works if there is a flow. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:17:25 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: nz varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable when varroa was first discovered here in the uk in Devon we devon = beekeepers were all very concerned, headless chickens is i think the = words.but we have come to terms with it and treat the mite at least once = a year . I bayvarol my bees in the autumn, change my floors and brood = chambers at least three times a year in an attempt to keep every thing = clean and disease free. cut out all excess drone comb. and am now = running my hives with varroa screens over at least a three inch floor or = straight out to the atmosphere. the mite will not be eradicated despite = the machinations of various departments of agriculture it is a case of = grin and bear it. A W Cannon. North Devon Beekeepers.U.K take care and stay lucky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:42:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Russian bee is another stock of Carniolans to my surprise. I asked about them at the ABF meeting in January, thinking they were apis mellifera caucasia and hence great collectors of propolis, and was told by the Baton Rouge scientists that they were apis mellifera carnica rather than caucasia. Of course, several years ago, that lab pioneered the "ARS-Y-C-1" Carniolan as resistant, which has never shown great results as resistant. If this bee had been as resistant as everyone was led to believe, perhaps most of the apiaries of the country would have them. Having switched from Italians to Carniolans 52 years ago, in 1948, in order to have a very early spring buildup to successfully gather Maryland's major crop, April 15 to May 31, I am a MAJOR supporter of Carniolans, and Sue Cobey's New World stock has few equals, but GREAT resistance to mites is not an advertised point. Hopefully, our scientists will eventually find a truly resistant bee. If I were young again and not disabled by strokes, I would like to "play" with the "hygienic Minnesota Italian bees" developed by Dr. Marla Spivak and sold by Glenn Apiaries in California. The entire theory regarding "hygienic" bees has great merit; and it is not new, just UNDERFUNDED. Rothenbuhler and Steve Taber did a tremendous about of research about "hygienic" bees being resistant to American Foul Brood over 40 years ago, and they too were UNDERFUNDED. Yuuki, you are young, why don't you work on the "hygienic" idea? Hope I have helped George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:26:48 -0600 Reply-To: flightdeck1@earthlink.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Subject: Re: Bees underground MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Feral bees here will pick any available space large enough to build comb. The floorboards of sheds and cabins are sure to yield a number of hive removal calls every season. Often two hives are removed from opposing sides of the floor. This is in contrast to pests such as yellow jackets which will excavate earth to build their nest. There's not many feral bee removals I've turned down but Arron's beehive (inside a tomb?) is entirely too creepy to venture. Matthew Westall - Castle Rock, CO > honeybees simply do not dwell underground. However, last summer while > sightseeing in Ireland after the FIBA meeting in Gormanston I happened upon a > colony of bees who were doing just that! In a graveyard at Round Tower (near > Gort) > there was a very active colony of bees in the ground under a very large, > flat, horizantal gravestone. I took many pictures, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 21:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > ... I am curious as to what people's experiences have been with this > genetic stock so far.... > > Well, so far I haven't been able to get any. Breeders are having a problem > getting queen cells accepted and virgins mated. It appears that the > Russian stock is "hesitant" to interact with non-Russian lineage or > vice-versa. Cell builders are not accepting Russian larvae and Russian > virgins are reluctant to breed with non-Russians. > Hello Aaron and All, Breeders are running 3 lines. The white and blue lines are having problems , but the purple line seems to be working out OK. I will know shortly for myself. My first Russian queen lasted 2 weeks. The workers were not paying any attention to her. I think it was a pheromone deficiency. I have been in contact with Mark Winston about a possible pheromone problem. It will be hard to run all the tests needed. My Russian queens are instrumentally inseminated , so they are full Russian.( just a carni). I was able to get two larva to take from my first queen and have two virgin queens at this point. Today I put in my new Russian queen with all the tricks I can come up with at this time. I will let you know in a couple of weeks how things are going. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:17:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa Comments: cc: IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Barrett wrote:- > Whan varroa was first discovered in Ireland in 1998, strident efforts were > made by our Department of Agriculture to eliminate the pest and > unfortunately to no avail. I have to say that I disagree with Tom on this statement. I think the Irish made a VERY PATHETIC effort to eradicate varroa. I really can't understand what their strategy was! However it was probably slightly better than the English a few years earlier who seemed to offer no resistance at all to the invasion of the dreaded mite! Having said all this perhaps these countries were just being realistic. I think it would take an enormous commitment and a lot of money to eradicate varroa from anywhere and in today's political situation I don't think this sort of commitment is possible. However New Zealand may be a special case. It is remote form all other countries and I believe it would be possible to eliminate varroa from this island but the cost both financial and to other wild life might be too high. There is probably a good case for trying to maintain a population of varroa free bees on the planet and if the people of New Zealand wish to do this then I think they should receive financial assistance from the rest of the world. It is, after all, the rest of the world's inability to control the mite that has put New Zealand in its present position! Harry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:33:20 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: eucalyptus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read last months ABJ article concerning beekeeping in Brazil and noted the prodigious nectar output of eucalyptus. Does anyone have any experience with eucalyptus in the USA? According to what I have found so far, there are over 700 species of eucalyptus, many of which are hardy enough for at least the southern half of the country. Many of these varieties bloom most of the year and others are seasonally specific; it would be possible to have blooms in each season if a mix of species were planted! I would be interested to hear from experience. Bob Young Lindale,TX ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:47:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: NZ to eliminate varroa Comments: cc: juderon@ihug.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/00 2:55:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, juderon@IHUG.CO.NZ writes: > Again, as an outsider looking in, and one who has read and listened widely > over > the topic, it seems to me that the biggest handicap to eradication of varroa > is > not the varroa, it is human nature. Flouting laws and commonsence and moving > hives via backroads to beat road blocks seems to be the norm where ever > controls > have been attempted. It makes one wonder whether these beekeepers make their > money from products of the hive or bootleg. How true! Truckers know where every scale is and know alternative routes that avoid scales. Even when the transportation folks set up portable scales, the truckers all know within minutes via CB radio. But there is even more here than sneaking around the regulations to try to make a living. Stringent attempts to regulate and/or eradicate varroa makes a powerful incentive for those who have it, to want everyone to have it, so that their problems will be reduced. One angry person can negate millions of dollars worth of government effort. I am sure that tracheal and varroa mites have been deliberately seeded in some situations, simply in response to official quarantines, "depopulations," or even just slow inspections which made pollination contracts impossible. Beekeepers who were calling for stringent controls are the most apt to get seeded. Wherever pollination is threatened or damaged, the growers may join the group that are angry about the situation. In fact, New Zealand may be a case of just this thing. I can think of some folks who would have plenty of motivation to get New Zealand infested. And I doubt that they would just do it at one or two points, if they did. The Canadian quarantine was a terrible blow to the livelihoods of many who formerly supplied packages from the southern USA. New Zealand moved into that market. Please understand I am not advocating, nor condoning this kind of malicious act. I am simply calling to attention that it easily can, and probably does happen. If New Zealand does depopulate or take other methods that cost beekeepers their livelihood, it is not only right and fair to make sure they are compensated, but it also could defuse the kind of anger that will negate any control efforts. Most likely, as in other areas of the world, by the time varroa is discovered, it is unstoppable, and it's probably time to start educating beekeepers on how to deal with it. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:01:38 PST Reply-To: haymedhon@telus.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Eucalyptus and death Bob Young from Texas asked about planting Eucalyptus trees as bee forage in the southern states. This could have one negative result. While working in Australia all the beekeepers I saw drove around with their heads stuck out the window looking straight up trying to see what Eucalyptus tree was blooming. Of course down there they are on the wrong side of the road to begin with so it didn't matter so much. But in the southern states you could become impaled on some Texan's hood ornament. The beekeeper I worked for in Australia said that when bees work Jacaranda trees the nectar seems to put them in a bad mood. Anyone have similar experiences? Someone asked about the number of hive knocks needed to prevent swarming after he knocks off. I think this practise will only benefit the living, not the dead. On my deathbed I plan to tell my family "...and as to my hives, let them bee." I expect on the other side I'll find all those hive tools I've lost over the years. I just hope they're not all too hot to touch. Ted Hancock ================================================================= Internet service provided by telus.net http://www.telus.net/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:53:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Shilliff Subject: resistant varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Blane and the ARS.Sorry to say,we have them here in Central NY. Last fall the mites dropped into the tray in the bottom of the hives and were not dead,after inserting Apistan as the lable directed.We observed for 10 days and no change-NO dead mites.We then inserted coumophos strips and the mite fall was large and they were all dead. Nick Shilliff 200 hives- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Yuuki Metreaud Subject: Russian Queens Roy Nettlebeck wrote: Breeders are running 3 lines. The white and blue lines are having problems , but >the purple line seems to be working out OK. I will know shortly for myself. Hello Roy, Could you enlighten those of us who do not know the difference between the different colored lines. Thanks, Yuuki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: resistant varroa Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > for 10 days and no change-NO dead mites.We then inserted coumophos strips > and the mite fall was large and they were all dead. The bees? The beekeepers? ............. Oh, the mites. Have heard about beekeepers using strips without gloves and even walking around with pockets full of them and then wondering were all the big red blotches and welts came from on their butts or even wondering why they were having nose or eye or forehead trouble, as they used their hands (exposed) to wipe their face under the veil. -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:23:01 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: NZ to eliminate varroa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Harry Goudie wrote: >I think the Irish made a VERY PATHETIC effort to eradicate varroa. >I really can't understand >what their strategy was! However it was probably slightly better than the >English a few years earlier who seemed to offer no resistance at all to the >invasion of the dreaded mite! I believe that most people will now agree with me when I say that no eradication effort will ever show any desirable results against varroa. Thus if any criticism of the Irish is valid it is that they made any effort at all. And here perhaps the English were right. Perhaps the English saw the reality of the situation. Impose orders and they will be flouted. Try to stop beekeepers moving bees from Southern England to the Yorkshire moors, and they will drive on back roads. Try and destroy an apiary, and many of the hives will be spirited away in the middle of the night to the cousins in Cornwall or Lancashire, with varroa getting a fast trip to its next home. >However New Zealand may be a special case. >It is remote form all other countries There is no such thing as a remote country as far as beekeepers moving bees is concerned. New Zealand will I believe agree with this. Since bees cannot themselves move varroa to either Ireland or New Zealand, the fact that the latter country is further from the nearest land mass that the former country is totally irrelevant. 'Remotness' means that the human agency moving varroa infested bees will take a little longer to get to the remote country. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:18:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: Bees underground MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/11/00 9:39:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Had I not seen it with my own eyes, I would have agreed with John. I would have adamntly insisted that honeybees simply do not dwell underground. >> Hello Friends, I was recently in Guatemala. I went with a friend to set up some bee hives for his father, who is living there. His father had some locally produced honey, which he gets there regularly. It is reported to be made by "bees that live in the ground." I tried to find out about these "bees that live in the ground," but there was nobody available to elaborate on it. All of the folks I talked to there were familiar with this honey and knew that the bees lived "in the ground." Apparently it is a different species than what we work with. The honey is extremely thin, flowing more on the order of maple syrup, rather than honey. The color is almost black and the taste is very fruity and mild. I brought a bottle back but it has fermented somewhat, presumably from the high water content. I know that have deviated from the thought of this thread but, I was wondering If any of you are familiar with Central American bees, which produce honey from colonies which "live in the ground." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 11:36:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Dr. Roger Morse In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Roger Morse, Professor and Extension Specialist in Apiculture at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, and the world, passed away in his sleep this morning. At his request there will be no public services. Roger was a friend, a mentor and an inspiration. I will miss him. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine 1-800-289-7668 x3214 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:25:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jonathan Ruel Subject: Subterranean bees In-Reply-To: <200005120400.AAA07995@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed We did a hive removal last week on the campus of the local university. The subterranean hive was located in an irrigation switch box. Like the water meter boxes, it is about the size of a nuc (a bit bigger, actually) and has a convenient entrance hole. The hive was doing great with the equivalent of 8 deep frames of brood, honey and pollen and LOTS of bees. I do not believe they were very Africanized because they were not at all aggressive. Cell size ranged from 4.9 - 5.2 mm which, I suppose is inconclusive. There seemed to be many other suitable nest locations - no lack of trees, etc. but the box seemed to make a very good home and they had surely overwintered there. Jonathan Ruel Flagstaff, AZ 35 deg N, 111 deg W 7,000 ft elevation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis van Engelsdorp Subject: Fwd: Roger Morse Comments: cc: NYS-BEES@listserv.albany.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Dear Friends, > >It is with great sadness that I inform you that Professor Roger Morse died >in his sleep last night. During these last four years since coming to >Cornell, I have gotten to know Roger rather well, and I always looked >forward to visiting with him to discuss bees or politics or life. I know >that many of you were friends with Roger as well. We will all miss him. I >will let you know about arrangements for services when I learn of them from >his family. > >Nick Calderone ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:43:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Coumophos experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Shilliff wrote: > Last fall the mites dropped into the tray in the bottom of the hives and > were not dead,after inserting Apistan as the lable directed.We observed > for 10 days and no change-NO dead mites.We then inserted coumophos strips > and the mite fall was large and they were all dead. Last year I also experienced apistan resistant mites, and used coumophos strips rather than apistan in the fall (for 45 days). This spring I had about a 7% mortality, which I consider acceptable, and when checking the surviving hives in April found that all had produced many drones and drone brood. During careful inspection of this drone brood between hive bodies in about all 80 hives I did not see even one varroa mite. (Late last summer every drone pupa had at least one mite on it.) Because the colonies all are very strong I decided not to do my usual spring treatment for varroa (which would have been apistan) but instead to begin supering. I know that coumophos is unpopular with many, but it cleaned out my varroa to a surprising degree. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:21:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Subterranean bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/12/00 1:33:34 PM, jjr22@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: << There seemed to be many other suitable nest locations - no lack of trees, etc. but the box seemed to make a very good home and they had surely overwintered there. >> I was wondering whether the colonies in the water meter boxes had been tested for Africanization because there could be some environmental factor that caused a sudden change in the bee's behavior, European and African alike. If that was ruled out I thought that might be powerful evidence. If it's not ruled out, then the coincidence of the arrival of the AHBs with the water meter infestations is still strong evidence. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:01:25 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Coumophos experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Fischer wrote: > > Nick Shilliff wrote: > > > Last fall the mites dropped into the tray in the bottom of the hives and > > were not dead,after inserting Apistan as the lable directed.We observed > > for 10 days and no change-NO dead mites.We then inserted coumophos strips > > and the mite fall was large and they were all dead. In my opinion you did exactly the right thing. Textbook! > > Last year I also experienced apistan resistant mites, and used coumophos > strips rather than apistan in the fall I know that > coumophos is unpopular with many, but it cleaned out my varroa to a > surprising degree. > Hello Ted, The truth Is hard for those not selling the choumaphos strips to take. Any chemical not applied correctly can be dangerous. I have got a bottle of 74% cloradane bought at Skaggs Drug store when they were in operation. On the label it says " toxic when absorbed thru the skin". Toxic is dead right! I asked the lady at the store. "can anyone buy this?". She said sure! Been years ago but walmart still sells chemicals more dangerous than choumaphos. Pass all the laws you want and if labels are not followed problems are bound to happen. I am old enough to REMEMBER when there were people around which couldn't read. What good are labels to those people. The "mom & pops" used to give advice with chemicals they sold. Not the large discount chains! The worst abuse i ever saw was a beekeeper in Florida putting Apistan in with bare hands and using Skoal. He said he put the strips in with one hand and put his skoal In with another. He did heed my advice and put on gloves. I personally know of no problems with people using the coumaphos strips and those people and myself are all are reporting zero varroa mites. None are producing comb honey over those hives till the bee inspectors say all clear. Coumaphos has been a blessing to many beekeepers! Thanks Bayer! Bob Harrison U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 14:35:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Lab, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Subterranean bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan Ruel wrote: > We did a hive removal last week on the campus of the local university. The > subterranean hive was located in an irrigation switch box. The first AHB sample I identified from Flagstaff in June of 1997 came from a large irrigation box near the center of NAU. > do not believe they were very Africanized because they were not at all > aggressive. Our experience has been that maybe 2/3 of AHB colonies are reasonable, esp. when small. > had surely overwintered there. Brrrrrrrrrr. Maybe it was a warm winter ?? > Jonathan Ruel > Flagstaff, AZ > 35 deg N, 111 deg W > 7,000 ft elevation --two people from Arizona on the same list - what are the chances ?? ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 32.27495 N, 110.9402 W http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:10:18 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I have so far not been able to get any Russian stock. The long anticipated > arrival is not yet here. > I have acquired two Russian queens from Strachan Apiaries in California. They were my second try. The first was sold out. I paid a premium price, but they arrived last weekend and I installed them. "It appears that the Russian stock is "hesitant" to interact with non-Russian lineage " Interesting that you would mention this. Five days after I installed one of the Russian queens in a nuc I went in to find her still in the cage. That happens once in a while. But, when I pulled the screen off and encouraged her to exit onto a frame of brood, she seemed to not want to leave the cage. I would call her "hesitant." I have not experienced this with other queens before. The bees were quite interested in her. I could not tell if this was positive or negative. She ultimately disappeared down a frame with a large court of workers. I hope it was a welcoming party and not a lynch mob. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 14:01:25 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Bees on allotments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Post wrote: > >In Australia there are parks where Apiaries are set out as part of the >recreational activities there. Apparently bee forage is planted all around. This >out of Australasian Beekeeper circa 1993-94. Confirmation again? I remember this article and brought it to the attention of our local association at the time with the proposal we should consider something similar. To date we have not proceeded with a dedicated bee forage park although beekeepers are active supporters of landcare and bush regeneration programs, with perhaps a tiny bias towards nectar producing species. I believe that the bee garden reported in the article remains the only formal site in Australia. There are many suburban beekeepers, producing honey from a variety of garden species for much of the year, but beekeepers are understandably reluctant to draw attention to the presence of hives. Outside suburban areas, there is unlikely to be more than 2 honey flows a year, so hives must be migrated. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Antipollen laws could help pollinators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Can anyone on the list recommend tall, fast-growing trees with >> insect-pollinated flowers that provide good bee forage and sufficient shade, >> while being tough enough to survive the travails of city and suburban life? > >Try Eucalypts: Hundreds of species, many of them extremele robust, many >ornamental, can handle the heat, many types produce an abundance of nectar and or >heavy (insect pollination) pollen, small hard fruit, evergreen, a little leaf >litter debris. Our main honeyflow in the Western Cape is from Eucalyptus >caldocalyx - the (Cape) Sugar Gum. Let's hear it from the Ozzies? Eucalyptus Cladocalyx (Sugar Gum) is native to Kangaroo Island and the Flinders Ranges in South Australia. Kangaroo Island retains large remnant vegetation areas of Kangaroo Island and the Island beekeepers certainly appreciate the reliable annual honey flow (some years copious, other years a light flow - but rarely failing completely). However Sugar Gum has some undesirable features for city street trees. Although described in Clemson's "Honey and Pollen Flora" as a small to medium tree, in its natural state it is a majestic tree too high for city comfort (35+ metres) and furthermore has the unnerving habit of dropping large boughs in high wind conditions. There have been deaths from branches dropping onto motor vehicles during storms from trees along highways, and warnings issued about camping under Sugar Gums. Incidentally the tree is so named from the sweet flavour of the young leaves, browsed by livestock to their detriment as the glucosides release prussic acid,when consumed in a mixed diet so farmers need to be aware of possible toxicity. As part of a block of native vegetation for conservation purposes, the habit of branch dropping is beneficial providing nesting sites for birds and possums. For a street tree I would recommend Eucalyptus Ficifolia (Red Flowering Gum) which is native to Western Australia. This has been planted in Victor Harbor, South Australia, thriving well in planting holes in paving next to bitumen roads. The trees are covered with large flowers in mid summer for up to 2 months with colours varying from vivid orange to fire-engine red. The blossom produces nectar and pollen and is popular with bees, ants, lorikeets and other nectar feeding birds. For planting as a screen rather than shade purposes, I suggest Flowering Bottlebrush (Callistemon species) or Melaleuca. There is however the consideration that tree species have evolved to suit their environment, and in each area there are species in need of conservation. The first choice should always be a native species, thus avoding the problem of introduced species becoming "weeds" and maintaining genetic diversity. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jonathan Ruel Subject: subterranean bees, AHB In-Reply-To: <200005130400.AAA12331@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 5/13/00 -0400, John Edwards wrote: >Our experience has been that maybe 2/3 of AHB colonies are reasonable, esp. >when small. I heard from someone else that they too thought the Africanized were much less aggressive when the colony is small. Surely, this must have occurred to folks as a possible management tool (e.g., in Mexico, Brazil..?). I thought about sending some of these bees in for ID but got caught up in just dealing with the removal. > > had surely overwintered there. > >Brrrrrrrrrr. Maybe it was a warm winter ?? In fact, the past two winters have been warmer than "normal" here (and many other places). The question of exactly what aspect (if any) of winter temperatures may predict the distribution of Africanized (or European) bees is interesting. In some research done on bark beetles, a colleague of mine found that the average annual minimum temperature predicted the geographic distribution of the Southern Pine Beetle much better than say, the average winter temperature. Jonathan Ruel Flagstaff, AZ 35 deg N, 111 deg W 7,000 ft elevation ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 07:35:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Dr. Roger Morse MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/12/00 10:31:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kim@AIROOT.COM writes: > Dr. Roger Morse, Professor and Extension Specialist in Apiculture at Cornell > University in Ithaca, New York, and the world, passed away Dr. Morse was one of my mentors, as I've heard him give many talks, and have read most of his many books and articles on beekeeping. He was always patient, encouraging, and helpful. He has also read some of my writings and offered suggestions. Many of the leading bee people today were at one time his students. Dr. Morse grew up in a beekeeping family, as his father was a well-known beekeeper who frequently wrote articles for beekeeping periodicals. Dr. Morse and his grad students were always deeply involved in cutting-edge research on bee topics. He was a leader in fruit pollination experimentation and education, and much of the material that I've compiled on pollination, I owe to him. Dr. Morse was one of the few bee officials I've ever met, that had the courage to call pesticide label violations, and his influence helped greatly to reduce those violations. I remember discussing some peculiar bee-havior with him once, and we turned over several ideas, none of which were very satisfying. Then he got a kind of crooked grin and said, "I know what's the problem. They haven't read my book!" I regarded him as a friend as well as mentor, and I will miss him. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 06:53:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Req for advice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A year ago, to reduce back strain, I switched to three Illinois size from two regular brood boxes. I take supers off the end of June and whatever bees make from then on is theirs to keep. Heavy mite infestation in August is then treated with Apistan. [Also in March-April each spring - which seems to work well]. T-mites are dealt with via sugar-grease patties for eight months and menthol in August. Healthwise, it seems to work. We have had three successive warm winters. The Carniolans start brood in January, three weeks earlier than Italians I have had, and they eat half of the stores compared to the Italians. This spring the top brood boxes of each hive are full of capped honey; which was never touched fall or winter. While it makes supering easy without using a queen excluder, what should I do with this honey after July 1? The honey/wax has been exposed to Apistan at least twice. I have neighbors with five and seven hives within a half mile or so who keep Italians and they super for fall also. The Italians from at least one neighbor are constantly trying to rob my carniolan hives. [They are down wind from the prevailing NW winds.] The questions for me are: what to do about the existing honey and should I go to two Illinois brood boxes for the future. If the honey as well as the wax is suspect, I would not want to put the boxes out to be robbed after I take off my supers because of the neighbors' bees who will be making honey in supers. So any advice will be appreciated. In this area it is not uncommon for people to brood their Italians in one deep and one Illinois. With Carniolans, what are the probablities of success using only two Illinois for brood through the winter.[It should make comb honey even easier to make given the way they explode brood production in the spring. However, they probably will want to swarm weeks before the honey flow.] John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:59:38 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Re: Req for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, John asked for advice on what to do with left over winter supers., I have the same problem with excess honey supers in the spring and early summer. I also use Carniolan bees. This honey is sugar honey, fed to the bees in early spring to stimulate brood production. It is in Illinois supers, one per hive. I am planning to winter over in double deeps this year due to the mild winters we have been having and are predicted to have for the next two decades, (El Nino, La Nina). The trouble with Carni's is that the more robust the colony, the more they will eat during mild winters. My guess is that you live in the Virginia area. I gathered this from you signature. Your winters should be quite mild compared to New England. I had some very robust colonies going into winter. These produced the most honey and brood. These same colonies were quite weak this spring and had to be fed to survive. Still clinging to a large number of bees, they literally ate their way out of house and home. The best over wintering colony I had was the one I worried about the most last fall. Compared to the robust colonies, it was weak. But was it? The so called "Weak Colonies" over wintered very well and are ahead of the formerly robust colonies. I conclude that the smaller colonies had less of an appetite and simply required less food over all. With fewer mouths to feed, they ate less of the allotted stores. I left them plenty of store. This "Weak", colony had a full medium super of fall honey left over. I did not stimulate this colony with syrup for the entire two months that the robust colonies required feed. This weak colony gave me a nice split while the robust one of the formerly robust ones was too weak to split yet. So what are we to conclude from all of this? I am going to pull some nucs from robust colonies in late September and over winter them as nucs in duplex hive bodies atop another hive. Not a robust hive either, simply an ordinary one. I will wrap the combination in plastic leaving each colony a winter entrance. I will also use open mesh bottom boards (OMBB) to aid in winter ventilation. My hives are on pallets so there is some protection from wind and I will add to this protection by placing fir tree branches over the mouse guarded fully open main entrance. My advice to you is to do the same thing. Reduce the size of your hives to nucs and over winter them that way. Feed the daylights out of them with that extra honey. I plan to do this too. Simply place a full honey super on top of an inner cover and scratch the cappings. Leave no access to this super from the out side. Reduce the entrance to the smallest one possible, considering the ambient temperature. This will allow the bees to bring down the honey and cram it into the brood chamber. Brood at this time of year will be reduced by the bees anyway. Timing will depend on the bloom and onset of fall in your area. September is right for New England to begin nucs. I suspect it will be later in Virginia. Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," definition= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, New Hampshire, USA ------------------------------------- 05/13/99 09:59:38 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:16:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: subterranean bees, AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/13/00 5:19:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jjr22@DANA.UCC.NAU.EDU writes: > I heard from someone else that they too thought the Africanized were much > less aggressive when the colony is small. Surely, this must have occurred > to folks as a possible management tool (e.g., in Mexico, Brazil..?). It already has. One of the pickle company officials who frequently travels to southern Mexico to help manage their large winter cucumber plantings, told me that the bees they use were africanized, and the pollination is done with nucs. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 12:22:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Resistant mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Last Fall, here in central Maine, after proper treatment with Apistan, my hives were full of varroa mites. Application of Checkmite strips caused the bottom boards to be loaded with mites. So far, no varroa in drone brood this season. I followed the directions on both medications exactly. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 15:49:34 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Resistant mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Morong wrote: > > Last Fall, here in central Maine, after proper treatment with Apistan, my > hives were full of varroa mites. Application of Checkmite strips caused the > bottom boards to be loaded with mites. So far, no varroa in drone brood > this season. I followed the directions on both medications exactly. > > Bill Morong Hello Bill, Give yourself a "pat on the back" for catching the problem. Same thing happened to me. All beekeepers using Apistan need to check in 7-10 days to make sure treatment is working. I found maybe one hive on a skid loaded with mites after treatment and others were running in the 90% kill range in 1998. Comming out of the winter of 98-99 i was finding the resistance to fluvalinate was building. Hives were dying as there was no other legal treatment for me to use. When Checkmite came along i was back in business. I kept waiting for the Formic acid gel to come on the scene. If Checkmite hadn't been available i am afraid i would have been put out of business. Fluvalinate resistance combined with two low production years cost me my Great Harvest bakery account. I spent quite a bit of money plus travel to another state to buy bees to get my numbers back up. Needless to say all the barrels of honey i produced were used to keep from losing customers. I knew about the problem before i got resistance. I found the first fluvalinate resistant mites in 1997. Knowing i didn't have another product to use i did away with those colonies to slow the resistance. I have spent countless hours testing and retesting try in eliminate the varroa resistant mites. There could be colonies in my yards today on which Apistan might work but in my opinion i was losing the battle. A fellow beekeeper in another state kept supplying me with bees to keep my numbers up and i produced honey in locations away from the worst varroa problems. Finnally Checkmite+ came along thanks to Jack Thomas and others. Point is Bill that a beekeeper today has to take nothing for granted and test everything. I like to play with my microscope and have been checking and testing for years. ALLWAYS try to find out why a hive dies and check and see if your treatment for disease is working. If the old Miticur strips had stayed on the market and we could have alternated with Apistan then i doubt resistant varroa would have happened so fast. In my opinion there are beekeepers using Apistan which have got resistant to fluvalinate mites now but don't even realize it yet. Hopefully with the Formic acid gell and checkmite they won't have to go thru what i did. Bob Harrison U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 22:06:23 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: eucalyptus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Young wrote: > Many of these varieties bloom most > of the year and others are seasonally specific; it would be possible to > have blooms in each season if a mix of species were planted! I would be > interested to hear from experience. Sorry this is not country specific, but e. is also an introduced species here. We have a Mediterranean climate with frosty areas more inland. Most species do well. Soil, altitude and climate play a major role in their nectar production though. We have identified approx. 35 types here, and with those are able to provide a good nectar flow for more than 9 months. We are cultivating those that flower prodigiously, that flower early or late, or ones that bees really go for with the idea of expanding the nectar sources at our sites. Yes, e. ficefolia is a good sidewalk grower, but so are e. sideroxilon, e. melliodora e. camaldulenses and a number of others: there are horticultural books aplenty that list the ornamentals. The honey of e. melliodora (yellow box) is some of the best in the world. E. ficefolia has a problem though: it does not produce a table honey. Oh, the flavour and taste are delicious, but it is stringy and (excuse the term) snotty - it has an unpleasant mouth feel is the correct term. Good pollen though and lovely for the bees to draw comb on. And beautiful to see. Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 00:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: varroa resistant bees Hello all, Since 1994 my beekeeping friends and i haven't been able to locate any feral colonies which have survived the mites. Until today. A fellow beekeeper called today with what i have been looking for. A documented feral colony in the wall of a building. Three years without any treatment of any kind. I rushed over a few hours ago to check the find out. I can't rule out the fact they might be a recent swarm in a old nest varroa killed out nest. The "owner" swears they came three years ago and have been there all this time. They appear to be a large colony of Italian bees,strong,bringing in pollen and by watching closely at both entrances i couldn't see any varroa on adult bees. The "owner" of the bees has been waiting 7 weeks for a exterminator. To make a long story short i am tearing apart her barn wall Monday and extracting the bees and comb. Having serious doubts about varroa resistant bees i hope to see for myself. I must admit i really didn't believe they existed in our area. There are many things going thru my mind now and i will know quite a bit more Monday night but if any bee-l readers can advise on a plan of action for confirming these bees resistant please advise. I plan to sample and test the bees myself for tracheal mites,nosema and varroa mite load. I plan to send a sample of the bees to Beltsville to see how our results compare. I plan to transfer the complete colony comb by comb held by rubber bands into frames. When i was president of the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. we made a professional video of removing bees from buildings. We have had a great deal of success with the transfer of comb to frames and use of our bee vacumm which does not kill the bees. I plan to put the colony in an area away from other colonies till August 1 then if still alive bring into high varroa area and leave untreated over winter. I promised my fellow beekeepers i would test a colony if they could find a live one. Any advice on controls or tests would help. I plan to reread any literature i can find. Any articles you can suggest would help. Bob Harrison Missouri,U.S.A. busybeeacres@discoverynet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:43:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Huestis Subject: Minnesota hygienic Italians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone on the list had any experience with Minnesota hygienic = Italians. With the spread of OTC resistant AFB it would seem wise to = use bees that aren't susceptible to AFB. Can someone tell me if this = stock has shown resistance to TM, varroa mites, and/or chalkbrood. Any = information would be appreciated. Clayton Huestis Crown Point ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 10:09:35 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Minnesota hygienic Italians MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Huestis wrote: > > With the spread of OTC resistant AFB it would seem wise to = > use bees that aren't susceptible to AFB. Hi Clayton, I have done quite a bit of study on American Foul Brood thru the years. Beekeeping was almost destroyed in the 1940's until sulfa drugs were used. AFB is caused by a spore and those spores stay viable for many years. All terramicin did was treat the bees themselves as a preventive. Many attempts have been tried to eleminate spores from beekeeping equipment with different rates of success. P.F.( Roy) Thurber spent many years trying to use Ethylene oxide fumigation for AFB. I guess the point i am trying to make Clayton is that AFB can be a huge problem if left unchecked. I have not personally had AFB in my yards since 1978 and then i burned all the equipment and buried everything. End of problem. I have seen two yards of other large beekeepers bees in Missouri with AFB this spring. Both treated with terramicin last fall. They burned and buried over 200 frames and scorched equipment. In two months they have seen no AFB. The "old timers" said neglected not medicated hives made the disease hard to control years ago. They found dead hives full of AFB sitting and being robbed by treated colonies for the honey. Places with unregistered colonies make those colonies hard to locate. Resistent to AFB bees would eliminate the need maybe to treat a antibiotic as a preventive but again I personally believe the true answer lies in eleminating the spores. As for the Minnesota hygenic queens i have heard only excellent reports about them. I know of no commercial beekeepers using the queens yet. I buy my queens out of California and my breeder has been working the hygienic into her stock so maybe i have tried the Minnesota bloodline. To be successful in Beekeeping (if you don't raise your own queens)you need a dependable source of queens. I am slowly converting all my friend over to her queens. Not to say there are not many reliable queen breeders but we are very happy with the way her queens perform in our area and climate. Bob Harrison Missouri,U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 14:25:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Yuuki Metreaud Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees Bob Harrison wrote: >Since 1994 my beekeeping friends and i haven't been able to locate any feral >>colonies which have survived the mites.... >>Having serious doubts about varroa resistant bees i hope to see for myself.... >>if any bee-l readers can advise on a plan of action for confirming these bees resistant please advise. I plan to sample and test the bees myself for tracheal mites,nosema and varroa mite load. I plan to send a sample of the bees to Beltsville to see how our results compare.... >>I plan to put the colony in an area away from other colonies till August 1 then if still alive bring into high varroa area and leave untreated over winter. Hello Bob, I have a couple of questions. For one I have seen many various definitions of "resistant" used by beekeepers. I seem to remember that you yourself thought that a level of mite infestation in the 7% (7 mites per 100 honeybees) range was not sufficient in some heated discussion regarding the development of tolerant/resistant stock in the Carl Haydn research lab in Arizona. This is of course putting aside the challenge to how legitimate their claims were by yourself. I have difficulty believing that you will not find varroa in this colony unless it is so isolated from other colonies as to have not been infested for three years (if indeed they have really been there for a full three years). If indeed they are resistant (in my definition: able to sustain controlled low levels of mite infestation so as not to have a major impact upon the viability of the colony)they you will find mite infestation levels in the 5-10 mites per 100 bees range. It is also important to consider that it has been shown that factors such as natural comb size, as opposed to the size to which the foundation is printed (which can be variable) can have an impact on a colonies viability. I would suggest that you take this colony and place it in a bee yard that is known to have mite infestation which would go out of control if not treated. Otherwise expose the bees to the mites and see how they respond. If indeed they are resitant and can cope with the mites to keep infestation low then they should not fall prey to the mites. If however they are not you will end up at the worst losing a colony of bees. I would let nature play its course with this colony. I have a similar experience to this one. There is a feral colony of bees that I have been watching for several years now and one which my fellow beekeepers tell me has been in the same tree for 15+ years now. I have left them to their own devices for several reasons. I wanted to document their progress in their natural environment and I wanted to capture swarms from it every year. I have set up swarm traps and am waiting to see the results. I have doubte about this colony because they are really isolated. But another part of me tells me that if they have been there for 15+ years then the genetic offspring from this colony must have moves on quite a ways. I have also been working with not treating some of my colonies. I have not counted the percentage of mite infestation in some of these colonies but I know for a fact that they have survived the past two winters with the varroa mite and have been strong productive colonies. Being a small hobbyist I can afford to do this. I hope to continue my experiment expanding to more scientific methods of counting mite infestation and examining other criteria. Looking forward to hearing about your experiments with this colony. Yuuki ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:52:19 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Req for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ernie Gregoire responds to John Mesinger's request for information. He says that the more robust the colony of Carniolans the more they eat during mild winters. This is directly opposite to what John was saying, if I interpreted his comments right. Actually, Carniolans, Caucasians and Midnights by nature of the pure strain are much more conservative on the use of winter stores than a pure strain of Italians. Fifteen years ago, and previously, we could acquire queens of these breeds in a purer strain than I've seen since. Back then they produced gray and black worker bees with no Italian color. But in the last 15 years, so-called Carniolan, Caucasian and Midnite bees produce from 10 to 90 percent Italian cross offspring. It is my opinion that calling these by their race and strain name is not truth in labeling. We often talk about these strains as though they are pure strains having the look and behavior of their distant parents but this is not the case today. Dr. Sheppard's work on honey bee genetic differences between breeding stock in the south and California indicates that there is no significant difference between these stocks except for their color. I wonder what the genetic differences are between these races in their original home lands today. I would also like to suggest to list members that when you are describing colony size, performance or other bee behavior that you describe colony size in number of deep frames, or equivalent in other sizes, covered with bees at a certain ambient temperature. Saying a colony is robust, or very robust, weak, quite weak, or having a large number of bees, does not give us any idea of the colony size. Saying that you will feed the daylights out of them does not give us any idea of how much honey or syrup you intend to have in the hive in the fall. Effective and efficient communication requires explicit use of terminology and adjectives. I just can't agree that "September is right for New England to begin nucs." Dr. Jay, and I think others, have determined that fall bees are physiologically different than summer bees. Fall is not natures time for raising queens. If you are buying spring raised queens in the fall to put in nucs I think you will have more success. If you want to have nucs go through the winter why not just split every hive in late May or early June, introduce new queens and winter them, and then kill your parent colonies in July or August after the nectar flow? James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 17:16:45 -0700 Reply-To: JamesCBach Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: JamesCBach Subject: Req for advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mesinger wonders what to do with the honey his carniolans have left in July. I don't know your area John but I'd suggest for your consideration that you put it in marked supers in your warehouse and put it back into the hive in June for use by the bees during the winter. Leave supers on the hives after June so the bees will store the remaining nectar flow in honey supers instead of the brood nest. I say marked supers because if you are treating the brood nest with chemicals you shouldn't move this honey into supers or extract it. Keep broodnest combs separate from honey super combs. I also have to ask how many combs are covered with bees in late Feb. or early Mar. if the top brood boxes (2 Illinois/western supers) are full of capped honey which was never touched fall or winter? If these are full of honey, I must conclude that your wintering cluster of bees is small, maybe too small. Maybe you are leaving too much honey in the hive for winter stores. Remember that the size of the cluster going into fall is proportional in shape - height to width. The bees want to cluster in open comb and cover some honey above and to the sides of the brood rearing area. If you shrink this open comb space by putting two full westerns of honey on for winter (or letting the bees fill in too much brood rearing area with honey) the height of the cluster will be reduced thus reducing proportionately the width of the cluster, thus its overall size. The other possibility is that your bees are genetically selected to winter small clusters. If this is the case you need to decide if this strain of bees is what you want if you are going to make splits next spring. I have been operating bees in three westerns here in Washington State for 20 years. I leave them the equivalent of 10 deep frames of honey (15 westerns) and they usually have four to six combs left in March. If I want to make splits the next spring, I winter the colonies in four westerns containing 18 western combs of honey. I orient it in the hive so that the center three or four combs in the third western is open for bee clustering space. I have found over 25 years that a larger colony in the fall actually uses less honey to winter on than a smaller one. I theorize this is caused by the more efficient use of stores and conservation of heat due to the colony size. For example: two deeps full of bees (3 westerns) on Sept. 15 with 10 combs of honey (15 westerns) will have about 2 or 3 deep combs (4.5 westerns) left in the spring. If I winter colonies in 3 deeps (4 westerns) I only need 12 combs of honey (18 westerns) in the hive on Sept. 15 to have 2 or 3 deep frames of honey left in the spring. If you only use two westerns for wintering your colonies, you will have smaller colonies of bees in the spring. I'm not sure you want that. A colony must be a minimum of 6 deep combs covered with bees in the spring to be a viable colony. Wintering in 2 westerns will not allow for the proper height to width proportion to ensure a good sized colony in the spring. James C. Bach jcbach@yvn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 20:54:44 -0400 Reply-To: Martin Braunstein Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Braunstein Subject: Dr. Alfred DIETZ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Anybody out there who knows Dr. Dietz e-mail and/or fax number? Thanks in advance, Martin Braunstein Breeder & Exporter of Queen Bees Criador y Exportador de Abejas Reinas MALKA Caba=F1a Apicola e-mail: malka@webnet.com.ar www.apiservices.com/malka/