From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:40:05 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04999 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00129 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141242.HAA00129@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0007B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 213115 Lines: 4535 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 23:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: sunscreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Becky or Al S Boehm wrote: > Has anyone had any experience with sunscreen and the bees reaction to it? > > Does it premote agressive behavior like perfume (most sunscreens have a > scent in them)? I have a very light complexion, and have always burned easily. I have had several skin cancers burned off by dermatologists in the last few years, and now have to wear sunscreen whenever I go out. There are quite a few kinds, and some have little or no perfume. The kind I use now is non-advertised, and known as "NO-AD Ultra Sun Block Lotion" It is available in SPF 30 and 45, and is waterproof, sweatproof and PABA-free. It guards against both UV-A and UV-B rays (UV-B is the worst). I always wear a hat, but on these hot days, I cannot stand to wear long sleeves. I put on the lotion whenever I'm out in the sun for a half hour or more. It is a dreary hassle to put on the stuff, but it certainly is a necessity for me or the alternative is liquid nitrogen burn sores all over my arms and face. The bees have never seemed to notice that there is anything different about me, and are not at all aggressive. I always work them in short sleeves, and get about the usual number of stings, which on good days is none at all. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 01:59:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: sunscreen Comments: cc: beckwards@JUNO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Since I am allergic to sunlight, I often wear sunscreen in the bee-yard- and I haven't noticed the bees objecting to it at all! The only annoying thing is that sunscreen stings badly if sweat washes it into your eyes. I prefer a waterproof, light formulae for this reason. I also prefer fragrance free formulations, since I don't like to smell like a pina-colada. There are plenty formulaes out there that are non-greasy, fragrance free, and waterproof- just look around. If you don't find them at your local Pharmacy, ask your favorite Avon- lady- Avon offers several good sunscreens- one may work for you! Ellen Anglin Mt. Clemens MI ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 14:08:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Robbing Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am interested in obtaining as much detail as possible on robbing. 1. Do bees rob only when the opportunity arises and then cease robbing when the easy source is no longer available, e.g. the target hive(s) fully robbed out. Or is a robbing instinct awakened in the hive which then persists?. 2. Is there a genetic aspect to robbing - is there such a bee as a robber, i.e. a bee which is more disposed to robbing than average, and actively seeks out targets?. 3. Preventing robbing by neat apiary practices, feeding at dusk with reduced entrances and not placing nucs near strong hives is recommended. But how can one stop it if it gets started? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 21:41:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Queen Colors In-Reply-To: <200007050118.VAA10858@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >Does anyone have a Yellow or Red marked queen still working anywhere? Yes, lots. Reds are not routinely replaced this year, and yellows as the opportunity arises. After we have completed the requeening process for this season (ends this week) we will still have around 300 to 350 Reds and about 50 yellows in service to go into the coming winter. We also had approx 15 whites and one blue this spring still active and doing generally well, but we have since raised a crop of young queens from these long lived old ladies and replaced them with some of their own progeny. A certain proportion of older queens, including a good number of the yellows of good strength, sportingly supercede which saves us a lot of work. (We keep them under pressure to lay which encourages this to happen) Important point though is that these are A.m.mellifera blacks, or crosses including them, which tends to be longer lived than our other strains anyway, and it is in Scotland where our seasons are relatively short, so queen 'burn out' does not happen so quickly as in areas with a longer season. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:00:52 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: sunscreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use sunscreen all the time and have had no problem with my bees.,JIM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 01:08:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: The one colony that wanted smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My 1 of 18 colonies that seemed to want smoke for handling got slightly touchy for a couple weeks. Then their production fell off. Suspecting queen trouble, I tore them apart for a look. Found mother and daughter laying on adjacent frames. Their mood has returned to tranquil as in the past, and I'm hoping to dispense with lighting the smoker. Another colony, the one that despises smoke, also had two queens last week, but did not get touchy. I had never seen mother and daughter together, and now have seen two cases in a week. Both new queens came from huge supersedure cells and are very long and beautiful. Bees will be bees! Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:32:37 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: sunscreen In-Reply-To: <200007081214.IAA27617@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One little-noticed aspects of sunscreen ointments is that the main ingredient of some is the chemical GUANINE which is one of the bases of nucleic acids (DNA & RNA). Technical-grade guanine is, I expect, liable to contain, or to produce over time, impurities causing mutations or cancer. Guanine admittedly absorbs UV very well, but technical guanine does not seem to me a suitable material to put on your skin. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 23:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Comb Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings All! Hope everyone is having a booming summer so far. Here in eastern Missouri, things haven't been going well for several local beekeepers. It seems like the bees are just bringing in enough nectar to supply their needs, and not much more. Hives with a surplus are far and few between. The only thing we can think of as the culprit this year was the fact that the area was very dry from last July until late May of this year. Last year, we finished the year about 9 inches below normal on rainfall, and we were 6 inches below normal for 2000 going into May. From late May on, we went from 6 inches below to about 10 inches above normal! Rain just didn't come when we needed it. One thing many beekeepers in the are commenting on, is the amount of comb that the bees are drawing out. They are really working hard to make comb, but not putting nectar into it. One fellow beekeeper said that he has placed 4 supers of foundation on one hive, and they have drawn out all the foundation, but only filled 1/2 of one box with any honey. Anyone else ever witnessed this? Any thoughts as to why they are doing it? Any thoughts would be appreciated, and expressed at our next local meeting. Thanks! Scott Visit the Jefferson County Beekeepers Association web site at: http://JeffersonCoBeekeepers.homestead.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:10:00 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: GM AND BEEKEEPING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" GM AND BEEKEEPING This note is intended for beekeepers and those connected with bee ecology. I urge assiduous promulgation of this core information. Genetic modification (GM), also called genetic engineering (GE), is a topic to concern beekeepers. If bees feed their larvae pollen containing - to no good purpose - a modified version of a Bt toxin, then plant-GM might harm bees. There are many other possible scenarios of harm to bees from GE plants. The Cornell expts by Losey et al. showed monarch larvae severely poisoned by Bt pollen. More directly, vague noises have been made about possibly tampering with bees' DNA in attempt to increase, for example, varroa resistance. It is therefore important for beekeepers to be well informed about the infant technology of GM. For this purpose the two best websites are: http://www.ucsusa.org http://www.psrast.org The following new statement is by an actual expert. He was, for example, brought to New Zealand recently to consult on GE trees with the Forest Research Institute and to confer with scientists at AgResearch. http://news.gefree.org.nz/patrick-brown-jul-2000.html R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:25:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: northeast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in central NY. it has been slow due to rain until about last week, when we got a break in the weather. Had lots of pollen and good nectar flow mostly from sumacs. Bees were drawing comb and flying well. This week seems to be little pollen but decent nectar flow. My bees are now working milkweed and white clover . The weather has been up and down, mild days mid 70's, and cool nights mid 50's. I've got 3 packages pretty well filling 2 deeps started late april. 1 swarm filling 1deep and part of a second aquired from another beekeeper in june ( 2 small swarms combined ) and a swarm I just removed from a wall which I had to requeen. A fairly slow spring shaping up, may be a good fall lots of golden rod growing tall. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 03:39:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do you do to keep your smoker in good order. Mine has a lot of creasote build up and is hard to open some times once it has cooled down. Also should you treat the leather on the bellows to prolong its life? I was using corn cobs for smoker fuel but recently have switched to baling twine. Is the build up of creasote a potental fire hazard, I've seen the after math of chimmney fires. Any advice would be appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 09:19:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Comb Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > They are really >working hard to make comb, but not putting nectar into it. One fellow >beekeeper said that he has placed 4 supers of foundation on one hive, and >they have drawn out all the foundation, but only filled 1/2 of one box with >any honey. My first thoughts are that if he had only put on one super of foundation at a time he could be looking at a little surplus honey. Instead what little was available was used to draw out three unfilled supers. It has been said many times that drawn foundation is a beekeepers most valuable asset. I would much rather the bees draw foundation on syrup then on the flows. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Subject: Vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A non-beekeeping friend of mine saw an article somewhere suggesting the use of Vinegar in controlling mites, he also said that in Europe there is a gadget that aerosolizes the vinegar to spray into the hive. Has anyone heard of this? I've been off the list for several months but couldn't find anything in the archives. Karen DeHond Upstate New York ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 14:04:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "bill_daniels@bellsouth.net" Subject: Re: Vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _The Speedy Bee_ has carried an advertisement in the U.S. for such a device. 220 vac powered units are listed at US$395 from Honey Processors, Ltd., 116 11th Street SE, Altoona, IA 50009. Phone 515.967.4952. Bill Karen DeHond wrote: > A non-beekeeping friend ... said that in Europe there is a > gadget that aerosolizes the vinegar to spray into the hive. Has anyone > heard of > this? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:33:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You need to be very careful using baler twine for smoker fuel as most twine is treated with chemicals. I to at times use twine but not as much as I used to. JIM ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:32:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stimey wrote: > > What do you do to keep your smoker in good order. Mine has a lot of creasote > build up and is hard to open some times once it has cooled down. Also should > you treat the leather on the bellows to prolong its life? I was using corn > cobs for smoker fuel but recently have switched to baling twine. Stoke it up with a good hot fire occasionally to burn off the creosote. A rinse with alcohol seems to work too. Your switch to baling twine could be a bigger problem though and not because of creosote. It is not uncommon for baling twine to be chemically treated to resist rot and rodents. Using that for smoker fuel could be a problem to your bees. I don't know what the chemical is, but breathing the smoke might pose a health risk to you too. The best fuel I've found is handful of damp white pine needles. Get a good blaze of crumpled newspaper going, shove the pine needles in and pump a few times. Some folks give high praise to dried sumac heads - haven't tried that one yet. A little Neatsfoot will keep the leather supple. AL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:43:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So far the lab tests that had GM pollen killing monarche butterflies were not duplicated in the field. I would prefer that the producers of GM plants and animals were required to put their corporate charter up as bond to be forfiet in any mishap. Perhaps we can get a GM pollen that kills wax moths? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 20:06:48 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too use baling twine - the used twine I cut from hay bales. It burns quite well. But before I use it, I hang it in a tree near the hives and let the rain wash it. This works well, because I always find myself looking for smoker fuel after I get to the hives. I have never found chemical contamination to be a problem. I do the same with burlap bags that may have chemicals from the potatoes they are used for. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA > You need to be very careful using baler twine for smoker fuel as most twine > is treated with chemicals. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:21:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Honey crop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who seem interested in hearing how the season has gone in different parts of the U. S., be it known that here in central Louisiana this year has been terrible. We have just finished extracting and made less than half the honey we made last year. We got just over 50 pounds per colony (excellent flavor, but not much honey). The continuing drought may be the culprit. The spring months were incredibly dry, about 40 percent less rain than normal. And this has followed a year that itself was 20 percent below normal. I was born and raised here and remember the "dust-bowl" drought of the 1930s, but (here, at least) that wasn't anything like this. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:23:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, I took my smoker apart as much as I could recently. I use white pine needles as fuel, and they build up a lot of tar and soot. I took the bellows off, cleaned it up, and cleaned out the blower hole. I then took the grate out of the bottom, scraped out the tube from the bellows and scraped out as much "gunk" as I could. I lightly sanded the top edge and the top, so it opened and closed easier. I then rinsed it all out with water and reassembled it. When I fired it up, it worked better than new. It worked so well in fact that it actually set the creosote inside on fire, and burned much like a flue fire! Thinking back, I am lucky it didn't burn through! I have come to believe that the smoker should be cleaned like that several times a year to keep it in good working order. Thanks! Scott Visit the Jefferson County Beekeepers Association web site at: http://JeffersonCoBeekeepers.homestead.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:20:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Amee Abel Subject: Extra Queen as Pet? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends, I'm a new bee keeper, with little equipment as yet. I started this spring with a 2 lb. package of Starline bees and a new Queen and 1 hive. Since the deep hive bodies get so heavy, I decided to stick to medium supers. My colony quickly overtook the existing space and swarmed. I captured the swarm, gave it a 2nd hive, and now have 2 colonies of bees. The original hive swarmed 2 more times before I figured out I'd better be ruthless about ridding it of queen cells. I captured the 2nd swarm, put it back in the hive, made sure it had a queen, then cut out all the queen cells. I took the queen cells and put them in a plastic container, figuring my husband (who's a school teacher) would take them to work and donate them to the science room. To my surprise, one of the cells was viable and a queen emerged. I captured a 4 fuzzy looking young workers and stuck them with the newly emerged queen in the shipping case my bees arrived in, along with some empty comb, and some sugar syrup. They are now sitting on top of my stove to keep them warm, since the temperatures around here have been in the low 70s at night. Is there anything useful I can do with this queen? Can I just let her fly and wish her well, or is she apt to screw up my existing hives? I'd keep her and start another colony, but I'm not sure that I'd end up with any colonies strong enough to survive the winter. But so far, all my colonies have had such lovely, gentle temperaments that I hate to waste a beautiful queen. --Amee Abel Contributing Editor: Home Office Computing Contributing Editor: Computer Shopper Member: Internet Press Guild ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:42:25 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: smoker In-Reply-To: <200007100052.UAA23512@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Your switch to baling twine could be a bigger problem though and not >because of creosote. It is not uncommon for baling twine to be >chemically treated to resist rot and rodents. Using that for smoker fuel >could be a problem to your bees. I don't know what the chemical is, but >breathing the smoke might pose a health risk to you too. Having advised our govt on poisons for a dozen years, and been involved in some legal actions regarding poisons, I heartily endorse that warning. There is no need to use any artificial matter that could emit any particularly poisonous smoke. > I have never found chemical contamination to be a >problem is far less meaningful than we would like to suppose. Considerable harm can be done, after various delays, but not traceable to the poison from the synthetic materials. Just keep experimenting with your own local plant materials. >The best fuel I've found is handful of damp white pine needles. Get a >good blaze of crumpled newspaper going, shove the pine needles in and >pump a few times. Some folks give high praise to dried sumac heads - >haven't tried that one yet. Some priority should be given to standardising your smoke as much as convenient, as a signal that it's the bees' main helper who is about to disturb them. The different reactions of different colonies to a given smoke is puzzling. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 22:12:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > The Cornell experiments by Losey et al. showed monarch > butterfly larvae severely poisoned by Bt corn pollen. The Cornell study was not representative of actual field conditions. Subsequent field studies to date has found Bt corn pollen does not harm non-target butterfly larvae in real world field situations. This is what the biotech industry expected since the concentration of the crystalline endotoxin in Bt corn pollen is extremely low and incapable of controlling even the target lepidopterans (e.g.the european corn borer moth) For example, in Monsanto's Bt corn, (called MON 810) 1994 field data demonstrated expression levels of 0.18-0.39 ug/g in the kernal 7.93 -10.34 ug/g in the leaf 3.65-4.65 ug/g in the whole plant 0.09 ug/g in the pollen These figures show the amount of toxin in the pollen is around 36-103 times less than what is present in the whole Bt corn plant and leaf tissues (what the lep larvae must actually eat to be killed) > Genetic modification (GM), also called genetic engineering (GE), is > a topic to concern beekeepers. If bees feed their larvae pollen containing > - to no good purpose - a modified version of a Bt toxin, then plant-GM > might harm bees. There are many other possible scenarios of harm to bees > from GE plants. It must be remembered Bt is nothing new - foliar sprays of Bt have been used on row crops for decades. They have proven to be non-toxic to non-lepidopteran insects such as honey bees (both larvae and adults). The US Environmental Protection Agency has published a Fact Sheet on Monsanto's Bt corn variety (event) which is called MON 810. Below is what the fact sheet reports in regard to the toxicity of Bt protein to honey bee larvae and adults (and other non-target insects): "4. Impacts on Non-Target Organisms a. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Honey Bee (Larvae) B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic to larval honey bees. An LC50 was not possible to calculate since this was a single dose test. Therefore, the NOEL is greater than 20 ppm." b. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Honey Bee (Adult) There were no statistically significant differences among the various treatment and control groups due to the sizable mortality that occurred in all treatments. B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm resulted in a mean mortality of 16.2%. Because mortality was observed at the single dose tested, a NOEL could not be determined from this study, but it was less than 20 ppm. 20 ppm was determined to be significantly higher than exposure conditions in the environment. c. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Parasitic Hymenopteran B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic to Brachymeria intermedia. Since this is a single dose study, an LC50 cannot be calculated. The NOEL is greater than 20ppm. d. Impacts on Non-target Insect - Green Lacewing Larvae B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 16.7 ppm is practically non-toxic to green lacewing larvae after 7 days. The NOEL is greater than 16.7 ppm. e. Impacts on Nontarget Insect - Lady Beetles B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic to lady beetles such as Hippodamia convergens. The NOEL is greater than 20 ppm. Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:44:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddie(ENL)" Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: Re: smoker You need to be very careful using baler twine for smoker fuel as most twine is treated with chemicals. I to at times use twine but not as much as I used to. JIM Has there ever been any research done on smoking fuels? I have been led to understand any fuel which clogs up a smoker with tars etc. are carcinogenic. For that reason I have refrained from using leaf material, paper based card, textiles, etc.. I use pine needles which give a very thick cool smoke only if I can't find anything else. I have found however, cow dung most effective and there is no build up of tars etc.. I'm told that the nutrients which produce tars are consumed by the cows digestive system leaving the dung with little material to produce carcinogenic laden smoke. I know enough beekeepers who are suffering from emphysema as a result of using pine needles or cardboard in their smokers to make me weary. Any comments? Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:36:47 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: nectar yields from myrtle family Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Annual tree growth can be as high as 10 or even 20 t/y on one hectare in favourable circumstances. (These figures were commonly quoted two decades ago during the first vogue for 'energy farming'.) Can anyone cite a ref for the claim that eucalyptus forests can produce nectar for brief periods at rates around that much per DAY? One figure of 17t/d.ha is alleged. I find this extremely hard to believe, especially in absence of _Apis mellifera_ to co-evolve with that fabulous 500-spp genus. Close relatives in the myrtle family include our Christmas tree two specimens of which can give my bees 50kg honey in 10d - what ageing hippies might almost call a rush - but that doesn't imply 17t/d from 1ha. Those trees could fit at most 10 per ha. Other members of the myrtle family of great potential and significant actual yields here are the manuka (_Leptospermum scoparium_) and its close relative the kanuka (_L. ericoides_ until someone moved it into _Kunzia_ a decade ago). We Kiwi beekeepers claim manuka honey is the top wound dressing. I wonder therefore whether anyone has carriedout yield & quality studies across the Myrtaceae. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:23:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Re: sunscreen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Al I deeply sympathise. I have an autoimmune condition known as SLE or lupus (luckily only mildly), one of its phenomena is sunsensitivity and I am supposed to wear sunblock but almost always forget. When I do remember I use one that is alcohol based as I can't stand all that greasy stuff they sell. It disappears into the skin in a minute. As I do a lot of bee work I had better make a point this year of trying to remember and I will let you know of any observations if you let me have an off-list email address to write to. However, for the time being I would suggest using an unperfumed total sunblock and very thin vinyl (or rubber) gloves. As part of disease control, when inspecting colonies in the UK bee inspectors are expected to use these. They cause very little hindrance so long as they are the right size, and you can then wash your hands in a bucket of washing soda and bleach solution and eliminate any chance of transferring disease between colonies. Madeleine Pym mpym@hive.netkonect.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 07:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There was an excellent article in this month's ABJ rating various smoker fuels. Bailing twine got very low marks due to heat at which it burns and the tendency to give off burning embers. Cautions about chemicals are also good advice. In a virtual dead heat for top smoker fuels were dried staghorn sumac bobs and cedar shavings/wood chips. Cedar shavings has long been my fuel of choice, purchased at the local feed store sold as animal bedding. Sumac bobs are free for the taking, which might tip the scales for the number one spot, but are a seasonal thing, which might tip the scales back towards cedar shavings. I attended a queen rearing class this weekend, where there were many lit smokers and a variety of fuels. I am sure there will be many converts to cedar shavings. Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to stoke a smoker! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: best & cheapest bee vac MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to pass along details of a bee vac a friend of mine from our bee club invented. It is so simple to make and works great. He takes a wooden package bee box and cuts a hole in the top the size of his vacuum hose. Take the feeder can and cut the top and bottom out of it. Cover one end with window screen and duct tape it in place taking care not to cover any of the opening. Stick the can back in the hole with the screen on the bottom. Put one end of the hose you will be using to collect bees in the hole you cut in the top of the box; place another hose which will be coming from the vacuum source loosely in the can. Place the whole apparatus into a plastic kitchen garbage bag. When vacuum is applied the bag is sucked against the sides of the box. Regulate the suction by opening the bag around the hose in the can. Vacuum is right when a bee 2" away is sucked in but one 3" away escapes. If the swarm is huge, you can fill one box and change to another! When finished pull the hose from the box and quickly place a small board to close all bees inside. When I saw this thing work for the first time I couldn't believe something so simple worked so good. Bob Young Lindale, TX ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I went and tried the sumac heads as they are plentyful in my area. They worked really well in that they were easy to light and produced a cool, thick white smoke. I had a minor problem in that these were old heads from last year that had been sitting on the plants for over a year and they were thin and weathered. They burnt up pretty quickly and I had to re-fill my smoker after only working 3 of my 5 hives. I think they would work best if the heads were collected in the fall, say October, after they are dry but before they are reduced too much by weather. > ---------- > From: Aaron Morris[SMTP:AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU] > Reply To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2000 6:10 AM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: smoker > > There was an excellent article in this month's ABJ rating various smoker > fuels. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:43:05 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: Re: smoker fuels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a friend who is an avid wood turner. He gives me shavings from his lathe which tend to be considerably longer than a wood chip and will not blow out of the smoker when it is vigorously pumped. The best are walnut which have a wonderful aroma as well. Bob Young Lindale, TX ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:30:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Benzaldehyde and Spontaneous Combustion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Benzaldehyde, which smells like almonds, is a liquid which can be used to clear bees from supers. Recently, I have seen and heard warnings about the spontaneous combustion of benzaldehyde and of the crystals which form on the fume board (benzoic acid?). These warnings were cautions about storing fume boards between uses. A search of the internet brings up websites that match benzaldehyde or benzoic acid with spontaneous combustion, but, while the text of the sites discusses storage dangers of various chemicals, it shows no link between these two chemicals and spontaneous combustion. Are stored benzaldehyde or benzoic acid fire hazards? Does washing a fume board with water remove the chemicals? (Are they water soluble?) Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@voicenet.com (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA 40.0 N 75.5 W ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: Re: Smoker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Stimey wrote: >What do you do to keep your smoker in good order. Mine has a lot of creasote build up and is hard to open some >times once it has cooled down. Also should you treat the leather on the bellows to prolong its life? I was using corn >cobs for smoker fuel but recently have switched to baling twine. Is the build up of creasote a potental fire hazard, >I've seen the after math of chimmney fires. Any advice would be appreciated. Lay a piece of newspaper across the open smoker and close the lid over it. This prevents creosote formation on the smoker spout. I learned this from Diana Sammataro. Mike Swintosky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:21:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Benzaldehyde and Spontaneous Combustion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit What does the label say? If the label is vague, call Mann Lake or Dadant (or who ever you got the material from) and ask them to fax over a material safety data sheet (MSDS) for benzaldehyde. The information should be there.- Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:15:37 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hugo Thone Organization: Alcatel Telecom Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > > Hello All > > I am interested in obtaining as much detail as possible on robbing. > Tom, Last year I divided a production hive into 5 smaller nucs. They all got a new young queen and a box of sugar sirop on top. After a few days I noticed that the nucs were robbing one another with only very little excitement. I saw bees flying from one nuc to their own, and as they were sisters, this all happened without any fighting. cheers, Hugo -- Hugo Thone do bee do bee do ... IBM GLOBAL SERVICES (\ email : htho@se.bel.alcatel.be F.Wellesplein 1 {|||8- phone : (32) 3 240 94 52 B-2018 Antwerp (/ fax : (32) 3 240 99 49 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: formic status MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello; Can anyone give a status report on the formic acid gel packs. I heard they have been recalled, but I also heard they were available under certain conditions. Mite treatment season is approaching and I am looking for options. Bill Lord -- William G Lord, Area Specialized Agent, Environmental Education North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension 103 South Bickett Blvd., Louisburg, NC 27549 E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:51:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: mideast honey flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -I am rather ashamed to admit that I had a good honey year in northeastern North Carolina. I lost about half my bees to Apistan resistant varroa, but fed and split the rest and made a good honey crop. I attribute this to 1. blind luck, 2. New world carniolian stock (they took off in March and I fed them heavily), and 3. the fact that our honey seems to come in about a 10 day window around the first of May (tulip poplar and blackberry) and we had a dry May following a wet April. At any rate, all my honey is off my bees by June 1 and the bees spend early summer in cucumber fields.- Bill Lord ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:20:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: formic status MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a case of formic gel pacs. Are they any good? I have no info concerning a recall I thought the availability problem was a manufacturing difficulty. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 16:06:32 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING In-Reply-To: <200007100053.UAA23553@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > So far the lab tests that had GM pollen killing monarche butterflies were >not duplicated in the field. That is a misleading statement. The lead researcher tells me she can't yet send a reprint of any publication, and such summaries as have been bruited abroad reflect the multifactorial reality of ecological studies, with large mortality from other causes and, so far, inconclusive results. The dosage in the Cornell expts was not enormous; nearly half the monarch larvae died quickly, and the survivors were stunted. The control animals on identical milkweed and ordinary pollen thrived somewhat better than those on just milkweed. It was a near-reality expt and as near to conclusive as any reasonable person could ask. > I would prefer that the producers of GM plants >and animals were required to put their corporate charter up as bond to be >forfiet in any mishap. Pieces of paper, or entries in banks' electronic registers, are worth nothing compared to healthy bees, moths, ecosystems, and people to manage them. Prevention is the watchword of applied ecology. I cannot become greatly interested in prospective punishment for corporations or governments that cause devastation (e.g. Chernobyl); it is much more important to prevent disasters. Nevertheless I agree that lack of liability insurance is a commercial weakness of GM. The Price-Anderson Act is a dismal hint of what Monsanto etc are presumably hatching with the FDA etc to limit liability in the event of a very expensive flop. GM has had many flops. >Perhaps we can get a GM pollen that kills wax moths? Forgive me for frankness - the matter is too urgent for mucking around. You can murmur vague notions like that till the cows come home (or until they suffer a novel epidemic as 10^4 humans did in 1989 from deviant metabolism in a GM bacillus). Such vague notions as BeecrofterŽ tosses in are almost worthless. The number of species is still around 30 x 10^6 and you can mention them pairwise in a much larger number of ways, and then the number of features that could be allegedly transposable from each is perhaps 10^4, so we have here a practically unlimited market for conning $ from venture capitalists. The number of nasty side-effects possible is, however, an even larger number, so let's not waste much more time pretending that GM gains some safety or credibility by mentioning a couple organisms and implying a beneficial transgenic organism (GMO) can probably be made from them. Let us instead study as best we can what the FDA and of course Novartis, etc, have not funded: are any ecological changes noticeable, and can they be correlated with pollen from any particular types of plant? I warn immediately this is nearly doomed to be even less conclusive than the current monarch feild study. But there is an outside chance some novel type of harm will emerge (as with the 1989 EMS epidemic) or a surge of a hitherto very rare disorder (as with thalidomide). R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:18:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Paul, Do you have the references of the two studies stated in your post (ie the Cornell study and the study that measured the amount of toxin in the plant).- Regards Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:47:00 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cherubini wrote: > Robert Mann wrote: > > > The Cornell experiments by Losey et al. showed monarch > > butterfly larvae severely poisoned by Bt corn pollen. > > The Cornell study was not representative of actual field conditions. > Subsequent field studies to date has found Bt corn pollen does > not harm non-target butterfly larvae in real world field situations. > > This is what the biotech industry expected since the concentration > of the crystalline endotoxin in Bt corn pollen is extremely low and > incapable of controlling even the target lepidopterans (e.g.the european corn > borer moth) For example, in Monsanto's Bt corn, (called MON 810) > 1994 field data demonstrated expression levels of > > 0.18-0.39 ug/g in the kernal > 7.93 -10.34 ug/g in the leaf > 3.65-4.65 ug/g in the whole plant > 0.09 ug/g in the pollen > > These figures show the amount of toxin in the pollen is around 36-103 > times less than what is present in the whole Bt corn plant and leaf tissues > (what the lep larvae must actually eat to be killed) The assumption here is that all Bt corn is the same. > > > Genetic modification (GM), also called genetic engineering (GE), is > > a topic to concern beekeepers. If bees feed their larvae pollen containing > > - to no good purpose - a modified version of a Bt toxin, then plant-GM > > might harm bees. There are many other possible scenarios of harm to bees > > from GE plants. > > It must be remembered Bt is nothing new - foliar sprays of Bt have > been used on row crops for decades. They have proven to be non-toxic > to non-lepidopteran insects such as honey bees (both larvae and adults). > The difference here is that the spray is not on/in the plant 24 hrs a day seven days a week. Many toxins have acute or chronic exposure effects. Also, the Toxin produced from live bacteria is generated inside the gut -- if conditions don't favour growth of the bacteria then tha toxin is not produced. > > The US Environmental Protection Agency has published a Fact Sheet > on Monsanto's Bt corn variety (event) which is called MON 810. You can be 100% sure that the so-called fact sheet is based 100% on Monsanto's own [biased] research. > Below > is what the fact sheet reports in regard to the toxicity of Bt protein > to honey bee larvae and adults (and other non-target insects): > > "4. Impacts on Non-Target Organisms > > a. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Honey Bee (Larvae) B.t.k. HD-1 > protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic to larval honey bees. Note the use of the term, "Practically." Either it is or it isn't. > An > LC50 was not possible to calculate since this was a single dose test. > A single dose test gives a great deal of confidence I'm sure. > Therefore, the NOEL is greater than 20 ppm." > If this said 'less than' it would be much more reassuring. > > b. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Honey Bee (Adult) > > There were no statistically significant differences among the various > treatment and control groups due to the sizable mortality that occurred > in all treatments. Why was there a 'sizable mortality' in all treatments? The fact that the test appears to have been undertaken once is hardly reassuring -- especially when the results were meaningless due to other factors. > B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm resulted in a mean > mortality of 16.2%. Because mortality was observed at the single dose > tested, a NOEL could not be determined from this study, but it was > less than 20 ppm. Previously the results for larvae were 'greater than' 20 ppm. > 20 ppm was determined to be significantly higher > than exposure conditions in the environment. > How was it determined to be so? > > c. Impacts on Non-Target Insect - Parasitic Hymenopteran > > B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic to > Brachymeria intermedia. Since this is a single dose study, > an LC50 cannot be calculated. The NOEL is greater than 20ppm. > Again, NO[A]EL is greater than 20ppm. > > d. Impacts on Non-target Insect - Green Lacewing Larvae > > B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 16.7 ppm is practically non-toxic > to green lacewing larvae after 7 days. > The NOEL is greater than 16.7 ppm. > This is the third time we've seen the words 'practically non-toxic.' This means that it is! It also shows how positive tests have not been confirmed. Why not? > > e. Impacts on Nontarget Insect - Lady Beetles > > B.t.k. HD-1 protein at 20 ppm is practically non-toxic > to lady beetles such as Hippodamia > convergens. The NOEL is greater than 20 ppm. > The fourth 'practically non-toxic.' This is hardly unequivical stuff -- It's hardly reassuring. If this comes from a fact sheet then the only fact established is that Bt corn is toxic (practically non-toxic is a bit like pleading that one is only a little bit pregnant) and that single tests undertaken failed to detect significant differences in one case due to high mortality rates in all test groups. This is hardly reassuring science. Regards Ron Law ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:53:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Vinegar and other stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have oxalic, formic and now acetic acid as varroa treatments. Along with FGMO, all seem to work best sprayed on the bees. All are organic. Is there a common thread here? FGMO is supposed to work by suffocating the mites, but that was only a supposition based of what is supposed to happen using FGMO on horses to control mites. I have no idea what the mechanism is with the acids, but my guess is the vapor is what does the killing. Have there been any studies? It is also interesting that oxalic and formic acids are diluted substantially to be effective on the mites and not kill bees. I have no idea what the relative volatility is with each of the acids in their diluted form, but my guess is they are similar at their effective concentrations, so there seems to be no reason why vinegar would not work as well as the others. If we do not need contact, but only need the vapor, why not use paper towels soaked in the proper dilution of vinegar in a veggie baggie- one with holes? Or is vinegar already too diluted for it to work other than direct contact? If so, then maybe just vinegar soaked towels would do. Just some musing, but for fun, I put an oil and vinegar soaked paper towel on one of my hives. And, I know, if I just add some greens I will have a nice tossed salad. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Smoker creosote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was using a smoker much, I used the head of a large spike to scrape out the spout. A carriage bolt might be even better. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:44:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Lay a piece of newspaper across the open smoker and close the lid over it. So how does the smoke come out? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 21:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul S LeRoy Subject: Re: formic status In-Reply-To: <200007101825.OAA15850@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:20 PM 07/10/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I have a case of formic gel pacs. >Are they any good? >I have no info concerning a recall I thought the availability problem was a >manufacturing difficulty. Information received from my state Entomologist is that packs should be sealed in a zip lock bags and can be placed in a freezer which is not used for food storage. This is supposed to preserve the packaging somewhat and will if the packaging is faulty and is caught early enough,preserve the effectiveness of the formic gel until it is applied to your colonies. Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:33:41 +0000 Reply-To: cherubini@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > Perhaps we can get a GM pollen that kills wax moths? Ironically, the big biotech seed companies that produce and store Bt corn seed have big problems with Indian meal moth infestations in their own warehouses! Despite attempts to seal the moths out, moths still get in and make a mess of webbing and frass over the surface of the seed (stored in two ton metal bulk bins and in cloth bags). Does the biotech industry have a high tech solution for controlling this common moth using a Bt product? Not hardly. Instead they rely on conventional chemical sprays (applied weekly as aerosol fogs via automatic fogging systems) and fumigants such as hydrogen phosphide gas to deal with the problem. The biotech companies know (after decades of experience) that Bt sprays and powders are just marginally effective (compared to conventional chemical insecticides) at either preventing infestations of lepidopterans or controlling advanced infestations. That's why Bt products such as "Dipel" never became popular as a grain/seed protectants. The level of control has been inadequate. So no, the biotech industry will not be commercially marketing Bt corn pollen as a hot new product you can buy to control wax moths (or anything else for that matter). Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 00:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: GM AND BEEKEEPING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Cherubini wrote: > Robert Mann wrote: > > > The Cornell experiments by Losey et al. showed monarch > > butterfly larvae severely poisoned by Bt corn pollen. > > The Cornell study was not representative of actual field conditions. > Subsequent field studies to date has found Bt corn pollen does > not harm non-target butterfly larvae in real world field situations. > > This is what the biotech industry expected since the concentration > of the crystalline endotoxin in Bt corn pollen is extremely low and > incapable of controlling even the target lepidopterans (e.g.the european corn > borer moth) For example, in Monsanto's Bt corn, (called MON 810) > 1994 field data demonstrated expression levels of > > 0.18-0.39 ug/g in the kernal > 7.93 -10.34 ug/g in the leaf > 3.65-4.65 ug/g in the whole plant > 0.09 ug/g in the pollen > Hello Paul and All, We do have some known in the studies that the Biotech industry published. I look at the larger picture. The unknowns are too great and the complexity of nature is still out of reach from Man.We only find pieces of the puzzle and we spend a lot of time and energy trying to put them together. There is very little to argue or debate.Look at the real track record in improving agriculture through chemistry.Short term always looks good, then comes the side affects, the soil becomes out of balance and the problem shifts to other corrections needed.The problem with GM is that stakes are much higher. Not just dead soil.It has the potential to run out of control and we will not have the switch to turn it off. Like DDT. After 30 years of no use the environment was mostly cleaned up. I love science.Reseachers are a very important part of progress. The quality and completeness of studies and tests is the bottom line. We have a lot to learn about nature.Our environment needs to be protected from those that lack a complete understanding of what they are releasing into nature.It is not an option. Walking slow and smelling the flowers is needed. Biotech has a place and we will gain knowledge from there work.There Human and make mistakes like all of us. It is good to question things that can affect all of us.We are all on the same planet. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:37:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kurt Bower Subject: Drawing Comb I have several small hives that will have to be fed to get through the winter. Currently most occupy only the brood chamber.While I have a super on top, the foundation has not been drawn and the honey flow is over. If I feed heavily, will the bees draw this new foundation out? If so, when should I start feeding? If I feed, and the bees do not draw out the foundation will they store the sugar water in the brood chamber thus comprising the Queen and the space that she needs to lay eggs? Thanks, Kurt Julian NC USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 05:28:34 -0500 Reply-To: ribac@wi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chasei Subject: Re: smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I mentioned the use of cedar shavings as a smoker fuel in a post to Bee-L several years ago. It illicited a response from Andy Nachbauer. In his e-mail, he indicated that several compounds were created when cedar was combusted which posed potential health problems. One compound in particular appeared to affect the liver. As a result, I discontinued the use of cedar shavings. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:31:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom ----- Original Message ----- > > I am interested in obtaining as much detail as possible on robbing. > > 1. Do bees rob only when the opportunity arises and then cease robbing when > the easy source is no longer available, e.g. the target hive(s) fully robbed > out. Or is a robbing instinct awakened in the hive which then persists?. I believe that "robbery" is a fact of life for bees and part of their survival must have at some time depended upon it (but I do not know what). > > 2. Is there a genetic aspect to robbing - is there such a bee as a robber, > i.e. a bee which is more disposed to robbing than average, and actively > seeks out targets?. I can give a very definite yes on this one...about 20 years ago a number of colonies and queens of italian extraction were imported to a farm at a nearby village. They were distinctive in having a particular orange band in their colouration. I collected a swarm from this stock and hived it at about 8: 00 pm one thursday evening in and apiary containing 10 other established colonies. There were 11 freshly made B.S. Standard frames with full sheets of foundation. I was doing some other work in that apiary on the saturday afternoon (5:10 pm), I do not know what prompted me to look in the "swarm" hive but I did so and was astonished to see that not only had they drawn out all but the outside faces of the 11 frames and filled them but that most of the central frames were capped! We are looking at a period of 45 hours...I do not believe it is possible for that amount of honey to have been gathered as nectar and matured into honey in that timescale, also the amount of wax drawing done in that time would have consumed a great deal of honey. the only possible explanation is robbery (and on a grand scale at that). The frames were solid with honey...there were no cells in which a queen could lay. Another notable feature of this colonies activity was that they polished the floor boards...(the floor was made of hardwood) the shine that they achieved would have made any french polisher proud. After going through a couple of brood cycles thay filled every cell with honey capped it and absconded...they were noticed flying along the Welford Road (A50) towards Wigston. > > 3. Preventing robbing by neat apiary practices, feeding at dusk with reduced > entrances and not placing nucs near strong hives is recommended. But how can > one stop it if it gets started? Robbery seems to gather in frenzy, and once started triggers an avalanche. Some observers have reported "fighting" between bees but the violence that I have seen has been the tearing of cappings and the tossing of fragments rather that fighting. The propensity to rob seems to be re-set to a lower level by a period back in the hive (due to night or a rainstorm). I have tried so simulate this using a water spray bottle (to simulate rain and cool the air) If what happened as a result was success...it was very minor! Best Regards Dave Cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 09:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion is interesting, but it seems to me that both sides might be selecting words, phrases, and even science to support their prejudices. Now that some field tests have been completed it might be worthwhile to have a presentation at one of the major meetings of beekeepers. I wonder if the ABF people might be interested in doing so at their January 2001 meeting? Perhaps such a presentation, as well as a question and answer opportunity, might clear up the use of terms such as "practically non-toxic" and "the NOEL is greater than 20 ppm". Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob's NOL Mail Subject: check mite directions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all Can someone please send me directions for use of check-mite strips. I somehow misplaced them and they are not on the pkgs. Bees in NE Ohio building up nicely this year. We had an abundance of = rain, which slowed down the hay-making but the bees made a nice crop of honey = off the uncut fields! The weather hurt some and helped others. If you are interested in beekeeping the Geauga County Beekeepers Association would love to see you at their picnic July 16, 2000 at Thompson's Ledges Park in NE Geauga County. 12:00 noon. Thankyou -- Rob O'Hara rohara98@yahoo.com 4th Year ... 5 Hives 3rd String Hobbiest Trying To Grow ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: John Sturman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Sturman Organization: Bell Atlantic Subject: Re: smoker fuel Comments: cc: ribac@wi.net, wjmorr@ark.ship.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I have recently found an unlimited [and free!] supply of mixed [including cedar] shavings I searched the archives for this reference and found a post by Bill Morrison regarding this subject. Bill wrote "Be careful of using cedar (Juniperus, Chamaecyperus, etc.) as a smoker fuel or even as a bedding for animals. It stimulates a liver detoxification system and may be hazardous. Natural is not always nice...." Bill, can you expand on this statement? Since the recent article in ABJ evaluating cedar as one of the best fuels, probably many beekeepers may switch over to using cedar shavings. Are we at risk? Thanks from all of us. John Sturman Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 11:10:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter and Ruth Thoem Subject: Re: Drawing Comb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started the season with nucs and fed them sugar syrup to supplement whatever Mother Nature could provide. The seller of the nucs advised this in order to convince the colony that their (new) hive was a good place to stay. They certainly appeared to have bought the argument, and within a week or so had drawn out comb strongly. I suspect they were using the sugar because the early comb was pure white. I am in S. Ontario, so bee activity doesn't really get going until May/June, although our honey flow will continue into the fall. I'm surprised that you say the honey flow is over. Is there no goldenrod or other nectar plants yet to come? Surely there's another 2 months of summer ahead. I don't know about the last part of your question, although I suspect the bees will do what's best for the colony Peter Thoem. Kurt Bower wrote: > I have several small hives that will have to be fed to get through the > winter. Currently most occupy only the brood chamber.While I have a super > on top, the foundation has not been drawn and the honey flow is over. > If I feed heavily, will the bees draw this new foundation out? If so, > when should I start feeding? If I feed, and the bees do not draw out the > foundation will they store the sugar water in the brood chamber thus > comprising the Queen and the space that she needs to lay eggs? > > Thanks, > Kurt > Julian NC USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Swintosky, Michael D." Subject: Re: Smoker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The newspaper is only to extinguish the fire. Normally I would have stuffed a piece of corncob in the tip after working my last hive. I'm guessing that much of the creosote forms as the fire is dying. Perhaps others have a different experience. Mike Swintosky I wrote: > Lay a piece of newspaper across the open smoker and close the lid over it. Aaron Morris wrote: So how does the smoke come out? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 15:47:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have stopped robbing by setting up a sprinkler on the hives and reducing entrance size down to about dime size. All manner of other things pop up in the literature from making a screened entrance the bees have to learn to propping an old window in front of the hive, to removing all the hive covers and sending everyone home to guard their own. The sprinkler and reduced entrance worked for me- best not to get it started. Snotty dispositioned bees seem to rob more or are snotty because they rob. The snotty bees with the extra super probably got it by robbing. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:17:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: Screen boards and feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I captured a swarm (cast) last week and put them in my only deep hive body with new foundation and a screened bottom board. This is all I have right now. There is no flow on now so I started to feed them. The 1:1 syrup has dripped through the hive and through the screen. This has attracted my othe 8 hives to the bottom of the hive being fed and has caused robbing. I will move the new hive tonight to stop this. Now, my question is; what would happen if I set up a feeding station about 50 or so meters from all of my hives? Would they all feed there or would I cause other problems? They all water at the same pond and I am sure that the bees in the clover are not all from the same hive. What do ya'll think? Richard Dry as a bone in Ky. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:52:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm a new beekeeper, hoping to eventually make a commercial venture of honey farming (if I ever get the hang of these bees) Why is robbing such a problem? Assuming that an apairy has disease free, relatively even stocks of similar parentage then the amount of robbery should be fairly even, and the honey all get's swiped by one large hairless bear in the end anyway! I close the entrances of small stocks to an inch or so and have to feed them in the day.I have never observed any frenzied activity during or after this, only the occasional bee getting chucked out of a hive that they're unwelcome in. My apologies if this is a stupid question. I see the point if section honey is being zealously farmed. Regards John Sewell lucindajohn@sewellhome.freeserve.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:50:57 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping In-Reply-To: <200007111340.JAA08803@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd Spear wrote: >This discussion is interesting, but it seems to me that both sides might be >selecting words, phrases, and even science to support their prejudices. > >Now that some field tests have been completed it might be worthwhile to have >a presentation at one of the major meetings of beekeepers. I wonder if the >ABF people might be interested in doing so at their January 2001 meeting? >Perhaps such a presentation, as well as a question and answer opportunity, >might clear up the use of terms such as "practically non-toxic" and "the >NOEL is greater than 20 ppm". That's a very hard-headed attitude, Lloyd - just as long as you apply it consistently, it will serve you well. Just remember that those who have invested billions in GM are more likely to be prejudiced than, say, Ivy League academics trying to get tenure and subjected to the most stringent scientific standards. The suggestion of scientist speakers for the Jan mtg is very good. An obvious choice would be Margaret Mellon PhD JD, chief of the Union of Concerned Scientists work on GM. Also you might invite Dr John Losey, asst. prof. at Cornell, the leader of the team that published the monarch results in _Nature_. And then of course there's Prof. Patrick Brown of UC Davis, whose general criticisms of current GM crops I've previously recommended. You could also consider a global star, Prof D T Suzuki of UBC - one of the most prominent of GM critics. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:46:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: GM Comments: cc: irishbeekeeping@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The debate on BEE-L on the above subject continues. I am sending a copy of this e mail to the Irish Beekeeping discussion list. INMHO this debate is getting bogged down in a welter of argument and counter argument to the point where an ordinary guy like myself can no longer sort out the wheat from the chaff. May I be permitted to ask some questions?. 1. Why are the scientists carrying out GM in the first place?. If it is to reduce or eliminate pesticides, then are we not swapping one problem for another?. (see question no. 2 below) If it is to obtain more food per hectare to feed an increasing world population, maybe we are solving the wrong problem. Surely it is the problem of population growth which we should be addressing. 2. Do the scientists fully see the down stream effects of GM?. If the answer to that question is NO then abandon it forthwith. If the answer to that question is YES then please explain to this humble soul why the world is now littered with the results of not seeing these effects in the past (ozone layer holes, global warming, Chernobyl, acid rain etc.) But now perhaps the geni is out of the bottle and can never be recalled. If that be the case further debate is useless, and we just await the outcome with baited breath. Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:04:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Beekeepers stung by imports Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Closing up shop. Luella Bell hates to give up the beehives, but she and her husband, Horace, have a warehouse full of honey they can`t sell. BARBARA V. PEREZ/THE ORLANDO SENTINEL Beekeepers stung by imports By Rich McKay of The Sentinel Staff Published in The Orlando Sentinel on July 08, 2000 DELAND -- Empty hives. Dead hives. A few stray bees zigzag in a sky that once buzzed with black clouds of workers, offering up sweet gold. Broken hive frames -- a thousand skeletons of a beekeeper`s empire -- are stacked head-high across the green fields of the Horace Bell Honey Co., tucked amid the pines just 30 miles north of Orlando. This is the scene at what was the No. 1 beekeeping farm in the United States. They`re going out of business. The hives at this farm wait to be sold or burned. Beekeepers blame China. They blame Argentina. The American Association of Honey Producers is blaming import rules that allow honey to come in at prices below the production costs of local honey. The association is gearing up for a lawsuit in the International Trade Court in Washington, D.C. Beekeepers across America are feeling the sting of low-cost honey flooding U.S. markets. Much of it is from China and Argentina, coming in at prices far below what it costs American farmers just to process the honey, much less ship it to packers and grocery stores. It`s the reason the business owned by Horace and Luella Bell is folding. The Bells spent a lifetime coaxing the pain out of bee stings and an honest living from honey. It`s a living Horace started when he got his first hive at age 5. Luella, his sweetheart, got stung by a bee -- one of his bees -- on their second date. She joined him in marriage and work just two weeks after she graduated from DeLand High School in 1964. At its height, the business produced 1 million pounds of honey a year, and their bees traveled -- pollinating citrus in Florida, cranberries in Maine and almonds in California. Now 36 years later, they`re going out of business. But the Bells can`t hold out. Right now, each and every one of their hives -- 40,000 of them -- are for sale. So is the honey -- tons of it sitting unsold in the warehouse at the Bells` farm. Orange blossom. Palmetto. Pepper honey. Gallberry is Luella`s favorite. All sweet gold, and the Bells say they can`t sell it. At least, they and beekeepers across America can`t sell it as cheap as the honey flooding in from China and Argentina. "It`s a heartbreak," said Luella Bell, sitting at her kitchen counter, wearing a bee T-shirt, counting pennies. A Bible is in arm`s reach in every room. "But we can`t hang on until there`s nothing left," she said. Beekeepers across America are facing the same problem, said Lyle Johnston, a beekeeper south of Denver and vice president of the American Honey Producers Association. "Imports are putting us out of business," he said. "They`re killing us." Cheap foreign honey, priced between 30 and 50 cents a pound, has flooded the U.S. market. American beekeepers say it takes them about 70 cents a pound just to break-even. Does the imported honey taste good? Local beekeepers have nothing good to say about the flavor of the imported honey. But packers and the food industry love it because it cuts their costs. Johnston and others in the industry accuse China and Argentina of keeping costs down by subsidizing their country`s farmers. This is unfair, Johnston said, and is the basis of the upcoming lawsuit. People should care because cheap honey at the market is going to mean higher food costs, Johnston said. That`s because fewer bees means less pollination, which means smaller crops and higher prices, he said. Paul Hendricks, the editor of Denver-based Bee Notes trade journal, said that a domino effect is just waiting to happen. As large beekeepers fold, food will cost more, Hendricks said. For the first time, there`s a shortage of almonds in California because of a shortage of bees. "You may not know it, but this is going to hurt you each time you go to the supermarket," Hendricks said. Johnston has 7,000 hives and plans to hang on for another year. He and his brother can handle most of the work. But the Bells are older, in their mid-50s. Their operation is far bigger and too much for the couple alone. And keeping on the staff is too expensive. A staff that once numbered 50 has been whittled to 11 in the past few months. News of the Bells` decision flew across the nation among the tightly knit bee business, through cell phones and e-mails. Everyone in the bee business knows them, Johnston said. Horace is considered a genius among beekeepers across the nation. His innovations, which he readily shared, helped beekeepers thrive when faced with plagues of mites and bore-beetles. Horace and Luella made the decision themselves, but it hurts. "We have a warehouse full of honey and no one to buy it," Luella said. Horace wouldn`t talk about the closing. "He`s taking it real hard," Luella said, taking a visitor on a stroll through the hives. "This is all he`s done. I guess once you`re stung, it gets in your blood and you don`t want nothing else." Posted Jul 7 2000 8:40PM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bobbee Subject: returning home?or not After getting started with two hives of bees and a place to keep them I had to move them. Short story, The Father owns the land but the Son farms it and is afraid of bees.Father said ok but son said I don't know, which I interp as I wish not.So I found new place for bees one mile as the crow flies, from original place and moved bees. When I returned the next evening there was a pile of bees on the ground where the use to live and quite a few flying around. Did these bees return home or were these some that had not made it home before dark the night I moved them. I put a empty hive there and most readily crawled in. I might add that most of the bees were fifty% or more drones. Thanks bobbee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:21:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.Crowell" Subject: Re: returning home?or not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been told that the rule of thumb is "three inches or three miles" - meaning that if you move the hive minimally the bees will manage to get home. If you must move it more than a few inches, you must move it at least three miles of they will return to the original location. I have also read that if you seal the hive (allowing ventilation, of course) for one full day you may be able to move it less than three miles, since the bees seem to re-orient themselves after beeing "under house arrest" for a day. I have actually done that, sealed a hive with screening, then moved them after a day. However I must point out that I only moved one of two hives in this manner, and any bees returning to the original site might have migrated into the hive that remained there. /C.Crowell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:54:54 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > The suggestion of scientist speakers for the Jan mtg is very good. > An obvious choice would be Margaret Mellon PhD JD, chief of the Union of > Concerned Scientists work on GM. Also you might invite Dr John Losey, > asst. prof. at Cornell, the leader of the team that published the monarch > results in _Nature_. And then of course there's Prof. Patrick Brown of UC > Davis, whose general criticisms of current GM crops I've previously > recommended. You could also consider a global star, Prof D T Suzuki of UBC - > one of the most prominent of GM critics. For the sake of balance, someone to represent the pro-GM point of view would be good too. Speaking of balance, below is an interesting interview of Dr. Bruce Ames, a professor of biochemistry and molecular biology at the University of California at Berkeley by the editor of Reason Magazine http://www.reason.com/amesint.html. While it doesn't deal with GM, it outlines the surprizing state of the art thinking in regard to the apparently trivial impact of human exposure to conventional chemical pesticides and industrial chemicals: Bruce Ames interviewed by Virginia Postrel: "In the 1970s, Bruce Ames was a hero to environmentalists--the inventor of the Ames Test, which allows scientists to test chemicals to see whether they cause mutations in bacteria and perhaps cancer in humans. His research and testimony led to bans on such synthetic chemicals as Tris, the flame-retardant used in children's pajamas. A world renowned cancer researcher with a calm, reasoned manner, Ames was an ideal witness in the case against man-made chemicals. But it's a scientist's imperative to change his mind when the data change-- and recent data have made Ames deeply suspicious of high dosage chemical testing and especially of the notion that man-made chemicals are uniquely dangerous. We are, he has discovered, surrounded by mutagens--not only synthetic chemicals but also natural ones--and blindly banning suspicious modern substances can do more harm than good. Today, Ames, a professor of biochemistry and molecular biology at the University of California at Berkeley, stands on the other side of the chemical-ban debate. In 1990, he spoke out against California's Proposition 128, which would have banned many pesticides, and he has been highly critical of the ban on Alar. The best way to prevent cancer, Ames now believes, is to "eat your veggies." Any government action that makes fruits and vegetables more expensive ultimately causes cancer. Ames discussed cancer research and environmental politics with Editor Virginia Postrel at his Office in Berkeley: POSTREL: You've become well known for saying that we shouldn't worry so much about man-made chemicals causing cancer, that natural carcinogens are far more common and we shouldn't worry about them either. Why is that? AMES: Pollution is pretty much irrelevant to cancer--the kind of pollution that we're getting with water pollution, or with pesticide residue, is in such tiny amounts. People got off on the wrong track about man-made chemicals. They said, Look, we know workers can get cancer from high doses of beta naphthalene or vinyl chloride. We shouldn't have the workers be guinea pigs--we should test these things in rats. And that was reasonable. So they started testing the industrial chemicals in rats. POSTREL: And they picked these chemicals because they were known to be associated in high doses with cancer? AMES: Originally the driving force was high-dose occupational exposure. but soon it came out to be testing every synthetic chemical and half of them came out positive in rat tests. I think we're drawing the wrong conclusions from high-dose rat tests. They are testing enormously high doses--the maximum tolerated dose in the rats or the mice, which means you find the level that causes overt toxic effects and back off just a little bit and feed the animal that amount every day for a lifetime. That sends toxicologists up the wall because that's a very high dose, and they are afraid that will do something that isn't relevant to low doses. But the control. which people should have thought of but they didn't, is what about all the chemicals in the natural world? People got in their head, well, if it's man-made somehow it's potentially dangerous, but if it's natural, it isn't. That doesn't really fit with anything we know about toxicology. When we understand how animals are resistant to chemicals, the mechanisms are all independent of whether it's natural or synthetic. And in fact, when you look at natural chemicals, half of those tested came out positive. Of course. almost all the world is natural chemicals, so it really makes you rethink everything. A cup of coffee is filled with chemicals. They've identified a thousand chemicals in a cup of coffee. But we only found 22 that have been tested in animal cancer tests out of this thousand. And of those, 17 are carcinogens. There are 10 milligrams of known carcinogens in a cup of coffee and that's more carcinogens than you're likely to get from pesticide residues for a year! POSTREL: Why not conclude that you shouldn't drink coffee' AMES: But half of all the things tested are coming out positive. The point isn't to worry so much about cups of coffee, but to rethink what we're doing with animal cancer testing We're eating natural pesticides, which are natural chemicals that plants use to try to kill off insects that try to eat them. And we eat roughly 1,500 milligrams of them per day. We eat 0.09 milligrams of synthetic pesticide residues. So we're talking about incredibly tiny amounts of synthetic pesticides, and yet the same percentage of natural chemicals come out positive. So then the question is, What's wrong with high-dose animal cancer tests? I've been arguing in the literature that cell division is a risk factor for cancer, as is mutation. A mutagen damages your DNA, and everybody agrees that that's a risk factor for cancer, and cancer can occur with accumulated mutations. But when the cell divides, DNA damage is converted to mutations. So what we 'v been arguing is that raising either increases your risk of cancer--either the rate of cell division or the rate of mutagenesis. So when you test thes enormous doses of a chemical, cell division can be caused in various ways. It's like a chronic wounding experiment. When you wound tissue. you get a lot of cell proliferation, because you get signals for the cells to come in and heal the wound and start dividing. So I think that a sizable percentage of the chemicals are only going to be a risk factor in high doses--like saccharin. POSTREL: Because they have this wounding effect? AMES: Yes, at these enormous doses. Saccharin is a carcinogen at high doses, and everything we know about the theory says there's no risk at all at low doses. I think that some sizable percentage of all the chemicals we're calling carcinogens are going to be like that. Now if something's a mutagen. it can both damage the DNA and kill cells. If you get to high enough doses where it's killing cells as well as damaging the DNA, then you're getting an extra multiplier. For a mutagen there might be a small risk at any level. But in most cases you also get this big multiplier that's only a high-dose effect. So all this says is that the risk numbers people are throwing around are going to just be wrong. And the further you get from the dose you gave the rat, the less you want to worry about it. POSTREL: People do want to know what causes cancer. AMES: That's what I'm very much interested in. Cancer is primarily a degenerative disease of old age. It goes up very sharply with age. Rats live about two to three years and by the end of their lifetime, 30 percent of them have cancer. At 1 year old, very few have cancer. Mice have a slightly shorter lifespan, and the curve is shifted to the left. And people show a similar relation, except we live to 80 years. This suggests that cancer is a degenerative disease of old age, in the same way as heart disease and cataracts and all the other things you'll find out about soon enough as you get older. It doesn't mean that external factors can't influence it--we know cholesterol influences heart disease, and smoking is 10 years off your life, so if everybody stopped smoking the curve would move out. But underlying it all, the reason there is more cancer is more people are going up that curve. More people are living longer and longer every year, and as we're living longer we see an increase in cancer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:51:59 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Robbing In-Reply-To: <200007120203.WAA27642@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Confessing that I believe the honey bee to be in many ways more ecologically wise than we are, and certainly more socially cooperative, I have wondered whether many 'robbing' processes aren't actually social hygiene and sharing of resources to best advantage. My suspicion is that, for many cases of what has been called robbing, no greed, dominance, or other human vice, should be projected onto the noble bee. The idea of competitivity in ecology is almost entirely a projection from the filthy 'economics' mentality (one's gain must be anther's loss). Nature is characterised mostly by cooperation, not competitivity. E Goldsmith 'The Way' reviews this rather thoroughly. I have some amateur ideas on this but would like to hear from the experts. R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 15:52:05 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: GM In-Reply-To: <200007120212.WAA27943@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >The debate on BEE-L on the above subject continues. I am sending a copy of >this e mail to the Irish Beekeeping discussion list. > >INMHO this debate is getting bogged down in a welter of argument and counter >argument to the point where an ordinary guy like myself can no longer sort >out the wheat from the chaff. > >May I be permitted to ask some questions?. > >1. Why are the scientists carrying out GM in the first place?. Some are trying to make, in containment, new medicines. That is not the main issue for beekeepers. It is rDNA crops that are the big issue most directly affecting bees (apart from any notions to perform GE on bees or on pests of bees). GE crops are of only two types so far - crops resistant to the herbicide also sold by the GE-seed mfr, and plants containing a modified version of a Bt toxin. No increased yield has been claimed, or found in practice. >If it is to reduce or eliminate pesticides, then are we not swapping one >problem for another?. (see question no. 2 below) no, adding a new problem to a recent one. Crops resistant to the herbicide glyphosate get sprayed in some regimes with only that one chemical - fewer chemicals are used than in the recent several-herbicide regime - but 4 or 5 times the total chemical (and nearer to harvest) which may help to explain why the main mfr of that herbicide - yes, it's that outfit HQd in St Louis - has applied to my govt for a 200-fold increase in permitted residues of glyphosate in food. >If it is to obtain more food per hectare to feed an increasing world >population I like Price Charles' first answer to that PR claim: "that sounds to me suspiciously like emotional blackmail". Higher yield is a very recent PR noise, not a reality. A desire to feed the hungry has only emerged this past year as a claimed motive of the GM mfrs. The planned benefits are to the GM-mfr not the farmer let alone the consumer. GE-Soybean yields in the USA have averaged 4 - 7% lower than traditional varieties. In drought districts, the yield penalty for the GE-soy has been 30%. , maybe we are solving the wrong problem. Surely it is the problem >of population growth which we should be addressing. It is confusing to talk as if we can or should do only one. Both are in urgent need of action. >2. Do the scientists fully see the down stream effects of GM?. impossible; see Brown http://news.gefree.org.nz/patrick-brown-jul-2000.html >If the answer to that question is NO then abandon it forthwith. It is strictly impossible to foresee all the effects of a new technology. You have to compare them. The disaster potential of uncontained GM is so menacing that the whole technology should be stopped pending very thorough assessment. (My country is about to perform a full public inquiry with that bold intent.) >If the answer to that question is YES then please explain to this humble >soul why the world is now littered with the results of not seeing these >effects in the past (ozone layer holes, global warming, Chernobyl, acid rain >etc.) > >But now perhaps the geni is out of the bottle and can never be recalled. If >that be the case further debate is useless, and we just await the outcome >with baited breath. Many more GM crops, and trees, and mammals, are planned by the industry and its university hirelings. They can be stopped. The current GM crops can be readily phased out - indeed this is already happening. Monsanto's NuLeafŽ Bt-potato peaked at 5% of the USA potato crop but is now selling less. Yes, irreparable damage may already have been committed. But preventing any more remains a duty. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:51:03 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping In-Reply-To: <200007120405.AAA01469@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wrote >> The suggestion of scientist speakers for the Jan mtg is very good. >> An obvious choice would be Margaret Mellon PhD JD, chief of the Union of >> Concerned Scientists work on GM. Also you might invite Dr John Losey, >> asst. prof. at Cornell, the leader of the team that published the monarch >> results in _Nature_. And then of course there's Prof. Patrick Brown of UC >> Davis, whose general criticisms of current GM crops I've previously >> recommended. You could also consider a global star, Prof D T Suzuki of >>UBC - >> one of the most prominent of GM critics. to which Paul Cherubini commented: >For the sake of balance, someone to represent the pro-GM point of >view would be good too. The GE industry has no hesitation in mounting entirely proGE propaganda (by Val Giddings, C S Prakash, etc) with no attempt at balance, and has thoroughly subverted the FDA etc. They don't care about balance. The scientists I mentioned are not antiGE, they're genuinely balanced. The fact that their balanced analysis points to severe reservations about GE does not create an opening for proGE advocates. I hesitate to quarrel with Ames (who taught me and for whom I have much respect; I was present when he announced the Ames test). But in some parts of the world such as mine, life expectancy has scarcely increased in the past century for those who got thru infancy. The claim that cancer is just because people are living longer has serious defects, including the sheer fact that people are, in that sense, not living longer. My idea of a real authority would be S S Epstein 'The Politics of Cancer'. He does not quote numbers which are bound to be meaningless to the reader. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:48:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by boby@LAKECOUNTRY.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove an entire quote of a previous article. Reply-To: From: "Bob Young" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Robbing Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:29:08 -0500 John, The problem with robbing is it is to the death. The hive being robbed will be completely destroyed if you cannot get it stopped. It is a very disheartening sight to see. Often once started, it can continue throughout all weaker hives in the apiary. Bob Young Lindale, TX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:45:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by boby@LAKECOUNTRY.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove an entire quote of a previous article. ----------------- Original message (ID=2C095DBD) (57 lines) ------------------- Reply-To: From: "Bob Young" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 21:24:48 -0500 Richard, When it is cold I feed in the hive with a wooden hive top feeder, but when it is warm I will set up a feeder a hundred feet or so from the hives and feed everybody at once. That said, just remember to not let it run dry if there is a nectar dearth because it can set off robbing. If you have several hives at that location, they will really get after it; I have seen them take a couple gallons of sugar water in two hours. Be prepared for the enormous cloud of bees around the feeder. Bob Young Lindale,TX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John Sewell asks: > Why is robbing such a problem? ... and the descrobes his observations to date regarding robbing: > I have never observed any frenzied activity during or after this, only the occasional bee > getting chucked out of a hive that they're unwelcome in. If you have not observed the frenzy, you haven't observed real robbing. Entire yards can get into a fit when robbing gets going in ernest. Robbing bees aren't nice to each other. Many bees die. Entire colonies (the ones being robbed) can perish. It's not a pretty site. And, robbing can get started in a yard and never be witnessed by the beekeeper. Ever scrape off burr comb from top bars and leave it on the ground? Then pack up and go home? Perhaps that could start a bout of robbing that you never see because you're not there. The best way to deal with robbing is to ensure that it never starts in the first place. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 08:29:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, One of the issues in this GM debate that is causing some misunderstanding is the language of toxicology. Lloyd Spear wrote in part: >Perhaps such a presentation, as well as a question and answer opportunity, >might clear up the use of terms such as "practically non-toxic" and "the >NOEL is greater than 20 ppm". "Practically non-toxic" only means that the experiment done did not show any overt toxic effects and remember it was given as a one time ie "acute" test. A researcher in toxicology who has only done "acute" tests will not rule out the possibility of other toxic effects if the material being tested is given over a longer time ie a "chronic" test and therefore will not usually say non-toxic. NOEL = No Observed Effects Level the dose at which no measurable toxic effects can be observed. It of course takes several tests both acute and chronic to determine this level but if one does a single test and finds no observable effects the NOEL is greater than the dose given in the test. Now it probably should have been said " acute NOEL is greater than 20 ppm" but elsewhere it noted that only a single short term test was done. My own concern about the BT corn and other crops is a little different and has been touched on by others already. By using the BT toxin in large acreage of crops we are selecting very rapidly for resistance to the toxin in the pest population. By doing this we will select for and see pests that are resistant to BT which is one of the mainstays of the organic and alternative pest control methods and has been for many years. The result will be that the organic folks and those who use low impact pest controls like IPM will loose one of the best and lowest environmental impact controls for caterpillars. Interesting discussion with ramifications for all of us in agriculture. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:35:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > The claim that cancer is just because people are living longer has serious defects, including > the sheer fact that people are, in that sense, not living longer. I think that what the good doctor may have been getting at is that the sharp increase in cancer is mainly a result of longer life spans. The cause of cancer, and the bodies ability to fight it off are very complex issues and deal with both exposure to agents and the immune system. A good example of this would be skin cancer cases. With my skin type the damage I did to it as a youth is now showing up. If my life span was 30-40 years I would most likely not die of skin cancer. But now that I am in my late 30's the problem is starting. The same argument could be made for other "exposures" early in life. Chemicals that did not result in cancer early in life may leave us with a higher potential for the development of cancer in later life. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > The idea of competitivity in ecology is almost entirely a > projection from the filthy 'economics' mentality (one's gain must be > anther's loss). Nature is characterised mostly by cooperation, not > competitivity. E Goldsmith 'The Way' reviews this rather thoroughly. I am not familiar with Goldsmith, but know Darwin rather well. How does ecological cooperation fit with the concept of natural selection? Also, why do you characterize competition in nature as a "filthy projection"? Why could it not, as well as cooperation, be neutral? Why stigmatize any natural process? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 16:41:44 +0000 Reply-To: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: Re: New to Beekeeping In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT New to beekeeping you may be able to benefit from the latest publication from this not-for-profit bee information organization. It is "Beekeeping as a business" The book was aimed at East Africa and written to introduce new comers to beekeeping and improve the skills of those that have a basic knowledge. It has implcations and application for all beginners anywhere. Details from International Bee Research Association 18 North Road Cardiff Wales ibra@cardiff.ac.uk ====================================================================== ***Important when contacting IBRA**** **Please state in the subject line for whom your message is intended** ====================================================================== International Bee Research Association 18 North Road, Cardiff CF10 3DT, UK Tel: (+44) 29 20 372409 Fax: (+44) 29 20 665522 E.mail: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk IBRA WWW pages: http://www.cf.ac.uk/ibra =================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The most productive of our hives, seemingly normal a week ago when we = pulled off the supers, has crashed, apparently due to varroa. We noticed much reduction of activity and inspected. Population much = diminished, many bees with malformed wings. No brood, no queen. One = small capped queen cell. This colony, like all our others, was treated with Coumaphos strips Jan. = 14 - Feb. 26. Until we took off the crop, it was extremely active and = productive. Then bang. It crashed. The next day. We presume that varroa is the culprit, based on the large number of bees = with malformed wings. Around here (central Louisiana), varroa crashes usually happen in = September, so we pull supers in July and put strips in. We treat again = in Jan.-Feb., just before the nectar flow in March. This is the first year we've used Coumaphos. We've always treated with = Apistan, twice a year. Lost 40 percent of our colonies last fall, don't = know why. TM, maybe. But we switched miticides, and used Coumaphos = this year, spring and summer. If this recent crash is varroa-induced, it is disturbing. Have there been any similar experiences? Any comments and ideas shall be gratefully received. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my experience, sprinklers keep robbers away, but only while the sprinklers are running. Shut off the water and back they come. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:42:03 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: .... > NOEL = No Observed Effects Level the dose at which no measurable toxic effects can be observed. It of course takes several tests both acute and chronic to determine this level but if one does a single test and finds no observable effects the NOEL is greater than the dose given in the test. Now it probably should have been said " acute NOEL is greater than 20 ppm" but elsewhere it noted that only a single short term test was done. Shouldn't the NOEL (short term) be 20 ppm. The lowest adverse effect level would be somewhat higher. > My own concern about the BT corn and other crops is a little different and has been touched on by others already. By using the BT toxin in large acreage of crops we are selecting very rapidly for resistance to the toxin in the pest population. By doing this we will select for and see pests that are resistant to BT which is one of the mainstays of the organic and alternative pest control methods and has been for many years. The result will be that the organic folks and those who use low impact pest controls like IPM will loose one of the best and lowest environmental impact controls for caterpillars. If I was a manufacturer of pesticides and could see Bt sprays making an impact on my business, what better strategy could there be than to deliberately create bugs resistant to the competition -- all in the name of progress. It is patently obvious that resistance to Bt Corn is only a matter of time -- hardly enough to recoup the costs of developing the GE corn. The profit will surely be a return to use of chemical sprays. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:06:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/12/00 6:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grumpy7@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: > > Around here (central Louisiana), varroa crashes usually happen in = > September, so we pull supers in July and put strips in. We treat again = > in Jan.-Feb., just before the nectar flow in March. > If you have been having a drought with no nectar coming in brood production slows or stops and the bees can't outproduce the mites. This happened last year to a lot of us in the northeast. It gets hard to time treatment by just a calendar. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:00:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: The one colony that wanted smoke In-Reply-To: <200007090508.BAA10141@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007090508.BAA10141@listserv.albany.edu>, William Morong writes > I had never seen mother and daughter together, and now >have seen two cases in a week. These would be prized for breeding by members of BIBBA over here. It's a good strategy for the new queen not to kill the old one is it not!! I have one nuc awaiting the new queen's mating and the old queen is still laying well. I haven't seen both yet and hope there are still two there. I had another colony that waited until the new queen mated before the old queen stopped. Last year I had one colony with two distinct sections laying but I did not see both queens. I must look harder for the queens if I suspect it and make sure they are marked in different colours (I don't use the 5-colour system so that neighbours get different colours, sometimes 2). I may be happily surprised if I do. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:46:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding In-Reply-To: <200007121219.IAA06540@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007121219.IAA06540@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >When it is cold I feed in the hive with a wooden hive top feeder, but when >it is warm I will set up a feeder a hundred feet or so from the hives and >feed everybody at once. That said, just remember to not let it run dry if >there is a nectar dearth because it can set off robbing. >If you have several hives at that location, they will really get after it; >I have seen them take a couple gallons of sugar water in two hours. Please will someone inform an ignorant beekeeper as to why so much talk of feeding bees, especially whole apiaries indiscriminately. How do you ensure you actually have *honey* for sale? Remember there is an Asian company marketing a process to convert sugar into glucose and fructose as a natural honey substitute. My understanding is to feed only when needed and at an appropriate time and in an appropriate method and quantity, the specific hives that need it. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 22:53:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Queen Colors In-Reply-To: <200007082053.QAA02168@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007082053.QAA02168@listserv.albany.edu>, Murray McGregor writes >We also had approx 15 whites and one blue this spring still active and >doing generally well, but we have since raised a crop of young queens >from these long lived old ladies and replaced them with some of their >own progeny. A certain proportion of older queens, including a good >number of the yellows of good strength, sportingly supercede which saves >us a lot of work. (We keep them under pressure to lay which encourages >this to happen) Wonderful! How do you keep them under pressure to lay? Is this only by making sure there is space to lay? I have tried out one frame of black plastic foundation and it worked fine as you suggested, between 2 brood frames. This was in a late split in the old queen's box. They seemed to take a lot longer than a wax foundation which they drew quite quickly. But she laid well. Eggs were rather easily visible on the black background! They didn't make queen cells. I am putting another in tomorrow. I will try an experiment in a hive which uses 14 inch square frames (exactly one brood and one super frame high). I will put the foundation in long ways down at the front, leaving a gap for the bees to fill at the back (I might change my mind when I get there and leave the space at the front or put it in the middle to be on the safe side). Up till now, I have used 14x12 and wired the bottom end and put another wire in an inch below to support their comb and stiffen mine from waving about. I will see if it works! I haven't got round to the super frames. The weather has been awful. Now there is a flow on, I'll make 2 up and get them into an actively drawing colony. I hope all is going well for you. I am just developing my new "hand reared" and highly selected queens into nuclei and replacing poor or swarmy or bad tempered stock. We seem to have a lot of chalk brood this year so that's a target for re-queening too. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 21:51:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom asked=20 But how can one stop it if it gets started? If your hives have ventilation( mine are D.E hives) you can close the = front with a screen, or completely if needed - I have done this in the = past successfully. The bees/hive fared well, and after 1 day, I opened = the hive, and restricted the opening until visiting bees decreased = comfortably. Of course, I am assuming that you will get your complete = bee suite on for this procedure. =20 And about avoiding robbing? Be careful when you rob the hive yourself. = I robbed my hive once in too hot, too dry weather during a blossom = dearth and immediately following the neighboring hives dropped by for a = little nip of honey from the robbed hive. But, I'm sure that many know = this. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 19:42:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bobbee Subject: What is short range In reading all the expert advice on the different breeds of bees it is stated by several that the Italian is a short range bee. What is short range and compared to what. When I was much younger I purchased five packages of bees of the Italian breed. I was told not to expect any honey crop the first year. I was too young and too dumb to listen to all the expert advice then and after the bees had drawn out the foundation in the single supers that I started them in I gave them all a comb honey super on top of a queen excluder. They made me five supers of comb honey. I didn't know anything about upper entrances or feeding bees or most of the stuff I should have known. All I did was get into the hives every seven days rain or shine and cut out the queen cells to prevent swarming and there were so many bees they didn't have any place to go except up. I supose this was pure beginners luck but it happened. Now I am starting out with two hives that I bought from a bee keeper and I would have been better off to spent my money on two packages, which I will do next spring but you can bet they will be Italian, just because of this experience. Any comments will be appreciated. Incidently I live in North Central Illinois about fourty miles from Wiconsin. Thanks Bobbee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:52:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Comb Production In-Reply-To: <200007091324.JAA14301@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007091324.JAA14301@listserv.albany.edu>, Lipscomb, Al writes >I would much rather the bees draw foundation on syrup then on the flows. How do you do that and keep it under control? Please. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:53:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Last fall, I had a bout with robbing, not from one of my own hives, but a feral colony a distance away. What seemed to work the best was a combination of tactics to stop it. First, I reduced the entrances of the hives down to the point where only a single bee could get in. Next, I cut several cedar branches and slightly hid the entrance. Lastly, I sprayed a mist of water onto the front of the hives. This seemed to slow the problem down a lot, and by the next day, it was over. It was not a pretty sight, and there was a noticeable loss of bees in the affected hives. Clearly, prevention is much easier than stopping it once it starts! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:06:29 +0000 Reply-To: cherubini@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Cherubini Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > By using the BT toxin in large acreage of crops we are selecting > very rapidly for resistance to the toxin in the pest population. > By doing this we will select for and see pests that are resistant > to BT which is one of the mainstays of the organic and > alternative pest control methods and has been for many years. > The result will be that the organic folks and those who use low > impact pest controls like IPM will loose one of the best and > lowest environmental impact controls for caterpillars. It is my understanding that the biotech industry and US Environmental Protection Agency have implemented a number of moth resistance management strategies including: 1. Prevention: "Plant non-Bt-corn refuge(s) to protect around 30% of the European corn borer moth larval populations from exposure to Bt Cry proteins. 2. Montoring: Detect & mitigate resistance before moth control failures occur. 3. Swift Mitigation: If and when moth resistance is detected, rapidly introduce new hybrids that express alternative Cry proteins. 4. Abandon Bt corn long before the point is reached that entire groups of Cry proteins are neutralized by moth resistance development. Whether or not significant moth resistance will likely develop is debatable. Meanwhile, it would appear there are substantial safeguards in place to avoid a potential crisis situation. Paul Cherubini ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:12:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddie(ENL)" Subject: Re: The one colony that wanted smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- William Morong writes > I had never seen mother and daughter together, and now >have seen two cases in a week. James Kilty response These would be prized for breeding by members of BIBBA over here. I would like to add my bit: Over here in Africa, with A.m. scutalata we have a few scenarios: During a dearth the bees abscond and move (predominantly)in westerly direction. They settle on the trunk of a tree and along comes another swarm and unites with them. I have seen five such swarms amalgamating, whereas Silberman in his book "Beekeeping in Zambia" found about a hundred (if my memory is correct) queens in such a commune. These bees stay together until forage is found and then they split up again. I have seen on a couple of occasions a reproductive swarm move into one of my trap boxes followed the next day by an afterswarm from the same colony move into the same box. In the first case, the mother queen was in the first swarm and a virgin daughter followed. They stayed together for about three months when the mother swarmed off again. In the second observation there were two afterswarms to go into the same trap box. I don't know for how long nor what happened to the mother and sister. When doing bee removals, one of the best ways to ensure you keep the bees, is by amalgamating with a weak swarm. Otherwise the bees show their objection to being forcibly removed from their home by absconding. Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:53:45 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddie(ENL)" Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John Sewell asks: > Why is robbing such a problem? ... and the descrobes his observations to date regarding robbing: > I have never observed any frenzied activity during or after this, only the occasional bee > getting chucked out of a hive that they're unwelcome in. Aaron Morris answered If you have not observed the frenzy, you haven't observed real robbing. Entire yards can get into a fit when robbing gets going in ernest. Robbing bees aren't nice to each other. Many bees die. Entire colonies (the ones being robbed) can perish. It's not a pretty site. My contribution. I have watched one colony invade another colony about 20 meters apart about 15 years ago. I posed the hypotheses of this as a result of a bees territorial inclination. I had a fairly strong colony (a) in the corner of my garden, established for about a year. I moved a hive(b) over from another site into my garden. The next day I had a frantic phone call to come and sort my bees out. When I arrived there were very few bees left of hive 'b' and the remaining sisters had been effectively subdued by colony 'a' and were sitting on the outside on one side of the hive. There were thousands of dead bees around hive 'b' and the bees from hive 'a' were still in a fighting mood as they tried to get at me. Prior to this occasion, hive 'a' had two supers on and were slowly building up the surplus. Hive 'b' had one full super. There was little that I could do and the frenzy died down. I then looked into hive 'b'. There was no honey stores and even the capped brood had been pulled out. When I checked on hive 'a', I found that both supers were chock 'n block full of honey. I had an occasion when trying to raise queens of robbing. I had set up the nursery hives with an internal feeder. Within an hour of setting up the nursery and installing queen cells, I found the bees in the area robbing. They entered the nuc boxes and promptly emptied all the sugar water from the feeders. The queen cells were also attacked. Not only do bees steal honey but they also take wax. In this instance I have observed that the condition is related to what we call "trek swarms". A swarm of bees moved into a empty box and started removing wax wherever they could find it, including my wax foundation sheets in the garage. The bees that did the wax redistribution kept to their occupation until death with no bees from in the same colony taking on this duty. Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 00:35:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As we learned in the Cornell Beekeeping Course, feeding hives syrup indiscrimately or letting them clean honey in supers must be done at least 150 feet away from the bee yard. This is because the bees are better able to give direction during the waggle dance for distances greater than 150 feet. If it's less than 150, they'll start looking nearer the hive and that can stimulate robbing. Jean-Francois Lariviere BeeHealthy Farms, Inc. NY NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re: Beekeepers stung by imports MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies to any I may offend in advance...These are the musings of a third world emigrant, astounded at the squandered wealth in the first world... > Beekeepers blame China. They blame Argentina I feel for Luella and Horace Bell, and every other producer in any country being placed under pressure by 'foreign' imports, but that honey getting sold at third rate prices is some third world farmers livelihood. One of the reasons I am drawn to honey farming is that it seems a sustainable form of production, unsuited to factory farming. I realise that there are honey millionaires, and undoubtedly will be more, especially middlemen, but the producers of quality honey must be governed first and foremost by their market...which should start with their local community. Rather than burning those hives I would hope that every beekeeper who wore a veil for them be given their pick, perhaps for a yearly percentage of produce. All sweet gold, and the Bells say they can`t sell it. At least, they and > beekeepers across America can`t sell it as cheap as the honey flooding in > from China and Argentina There is no such thing as a good product which cannot be sold. There are lifestyles which cannot be maintained, and 'empires' which are unsustainable in an equal opportunity market. The Bells have run their business for as long as I've been alive and I beg their pardon for suggesting that 40 000 Hives are too many to realistically sustain. I'm no communist, but when workers are paid realistic wages (as seems the norm here in the UK) then the 'bosses of industry' find large operations becoming pyramids balancing on their points...that any threat will topple. > The Bells spent a lifetime coaxing the pain out of bee stings and an honest > living from honey. I hope Luella and Horace can adjust their lives to fewer hives, a smaller market and a better mark up. With a warehouse full of high quality stock to tide them through poor seasons they're still light years ahead of most of us, and galaxies ahead of Chinese and other beefarmers. This world is becoming smaller daily, and the fact of the matter is that the third world must begin sustainable production, steal, or die. It seems unChristian and inhumane to me to deny them a chance to live, especially fellow beekeepers .> Cheap foreign honey, priced between 30 and 50 cents a pound, has flooded the > U.S. market. American beekeepers say it takes them about 70 cents a pound > just to break-even. > > Does the imported honey taste good? Local beekeepers have nothing good to > say about the flavor of the imported honey. But packers and the food > industry love it because it cuts their costs. If a youngster struggling to manage his first dozen hives may be so bold as to offer advice to the Bells it is "downscale!". We can't deny the needs of the beekeepers in the third world for markets, anymore than we should sell them cola when they're crying out for rice. Use your amassed knowledge to produce the finest, purest honey money can buy. Good honey is a rare treasure,one that tastes better and delivers more health benefits the closer to source it is consumed. Educating your local market is the right place to start. Children don't love honey the way we do because the romance is gone...a tin of red goo generally looks better on the shelf, and has something under the lid to collect too! A little education and marketing will have the children wanting honey on toast again, and the mix that goes on breakfast cereal and into cough medicine just won't match our product. We cannot, in fact must not, stop international trading - but we need to untangle the web that has been created by tycoons and their politicians out of simple business transactions. It is insanity that the taxes we pay as first world citizens help subsidise the undermining of our own means of support... but I digress to a path that will lead us miles away from the pleasures of bees... My sympathy is with the Bells, but we must all expand our vision to see this entire world. If we dont do something soon we're going to have many more millions of deaths on our consciences, or a war of frustration . I see sustainable practices, designed or modified along permaculture principles as a way forward. Unfortunately 'empires' just don't fit in to a fairer trading system. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:50:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is saddening to lose a good colony and alarming to hear of a possible case of Coumaphos resistance in the USA. I wonder if much resistance is perhaps developed due to our lack of appreciation of the fact that pesticides have slopes of toxicity that vary with concentration. The ones with steep slopes can be tricky. Hit the slope too low and you risk resistance, too high and the stuff might be deadly to the bees. I know little about the slopes of any of our approved miticides. Maybe I should know more. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Comb Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The first thing you need to do is plan. Keep ahead of the bees when you can. I use all medium supers so my frames can be moved between brood chambers and honey supers with no problems. When I need more drawn comb I take a strong colony with a young queen and remove all supers. I place boxes of foundation on top of the brood chamber and feed them syrup. Monitor the progress of them drawing the comb and rotate frames into the center position as they become well drawn. About one gallon of syrup will provide enough stimulation for them to draw out ten frames. If it is late in the season let the bees have this super for winter food. If you need the space for honey production rotate frames up from the brood chamber. In message <200007091324.JAA14301@listserv.albany.edu>, Lipscomb, Al writes >I would much rather the bees draw foundation on syrup then on the flows. How do you do that and keep it under control? Please. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:12:52 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GREGOIRE@ENDOR.COM Subject: Why GMO? Answered here! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Gang, Roy Nettlebeck posted an interesting note. Keep up the good work Roy. I appreciate your input. His tactful post comes very close to ground zero on the target of "Why GMO?" <> I shall be more bold here! We will not see the reason for the use of GMO's if we keep our noses pressed against an ear of corn. The issue is much larger than BT corn, or pollen, or providing insect resisting food plants. The issue is brought into a much clearer focus when we look at world food production, but we must not dwell on that image for long, lest it distract us. Step back for a moment, and look at the big picture. Given the mega-mergers of food, chemical, banking, manufacturing, pharmaceutical,and even communication companies, and you will see the vertical lines of organization are blurred at the top. You can no longer say, "This is a chemical company, or this is a food producer." They are no longer meat and potato companies. They are now producing stew! Murphy's law states in part; The Golden Rule, = The man with the gold makes the rules. Consider the following, 1. The money is in far fewer hands than at any time in history. 2. If GMOs are controlled by mega-companies, they can control the world food supply. Beekeepers are a very small cog in this machinery. (Reference: Terminator seed technology.) Ernie Gregoire "Beekeeper," definition= partially brave, partially excentric Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, New Hampshire, USA ------------------------------------- 07/13/99 09:12:53 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ARTHUR SKIPPER Subject: Re: IBList GM Comments: To: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Comments: cc: irishbeekeeping@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello If I maybe allowed to address a couple of your questions with my limited knowledge. 1. If feeding the masses is the problem, then why are so many American farmers going broke? It is my understanding on economics that supply and demand will determine prices. You make an extremely important point in limiting the population growth as another answer to the question. 2. On your question, do scientists fully understand the effects of GM. I have recently been convinced they do not and your answer of abandonment is correct until such time as they do. 3. The genie being out of the bottle appears to be correct. But as in all things, should be stop trying to find ways to possibility put it back. If I cut myself and start bleeding profusely do I simply forget it because the damage is done or do I continue to try and stop the bleeding and minimize the damage. Sincerely Art Skipper 1810 Pilgrim Road Cottondale, Fl 32431 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 10:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill Morong wrote: > It is saddening to lose a good colony and alarming to hear of a possible > case of Coumaphos resistance in the USA. Based on the original post I think it's far too early to be sending up flags of coumaphos resistence. Although the withdrawal of a product that should never be put in a hive in the first place (my very opinionated opinion) would bring me great joy, it is alarmist to be crying coumaphos resistence based on what Walter Weller wrote: > We presume that varroa is the culprit, based on the large number of bees with malformed wings. > Around here (central Louisiana), varroa crashes usually happen in September, so we pull supers > in July and put strips in. We treat again in Jan.-Feb., just before the nectar flow in March. > This is the first year we've used Coumaphos. We've always treated with Apistan, twice a year. > Lost 40 percent of our colonies last fall, don't know why. TM, maybe. But we switched > miticides, and used Coumaphos this year, spring and summer. > > If this recent crash is varroa-induced, it is disturbing.... First, it's an PRESUMPTION that this was a varroa crash. And second, if the presumprtion is correct and this IS a varroa crash, no tests have been done to establish that varroa is resistent to coumaphos. It is possible that coumaphos killed all the mites when it was used and will continue to do so. Nothing has been done to verify that varroa was the cause of the crash or that coumaphose resistence is being exhibited. Don't jump to conclusions, establish facts. Having said that, I'm compelled to highlight "used Coumaphos this year, spring and summer". My recollection of the recommendations for coumaphos use is two treatments per year for small hive beetle and one treatment per year for varroa mites IF Apistan resistence has been verified. I have never read the product label and I'm sure I will be corrected if I'm in error, but a sure fire way to hasten the arrival of coumaphos resistence is to misuse the product. Aaron Morris - Thinking hives should not have kitchen sinks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 13:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who has helped me realise I've read the right books! I've always been careful whilst feeding, scraping brace comb etc and have not witnessed this awful sounding sight. Given that several of my apairies are pretty far from garden sprinklers I guess I'll carry on being dead careful! We've had some poor weather and one of my hives that had a few capped combs didn't have them anymore yesterday...I obviously wondered if they'd been robbed out, but there were no dead bees about. Also every time I've fed (Top feeders Ashforth style, even on Nucs) I've fed everyone at an apairy at once...when necessary. I'm intrigued by the idea of a demand type feeder for several hives to share for pre winter feeding. Do any UK beekeepers on the list practice this system? ----- Original ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:46:18 -0400 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: Managing Your Bees For the Next 9 Months MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! George Imirie's "Managing Your Bees For the Next 9 Months " is located here: http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/html/July2000.htm Herb/Norma Bee Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" The Beekeeper's Home on the Internet http://www.mainebee.com Stony Critters http://www.stonycritters.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: (snip) My recollection of the recommendations for coumaphos use is two treatments per year for small hive beetle and one treatment per year for varroa mites IF Apistan resistence has been verified. This may be correct. However, the twice-yearly Coumaphos treatment was (and is) recommended by our state apiarist, Jimmy Dunkley. No SHB has yet been reported in Louisiana as far as I know, but Apistan-resistant varroa seems to be present. and possibly was the cause of our 40-percent loss rate last fall. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beecrofter writes: (snip) If you have been having a drought with no nectar coming in brood production slows or stops and the bees can't outproduce the mites. This happened last year to a lot of us in the northeast. It gets hard to time treatment by just a calendar. This sounds like good sense to me, and may explain my observation. Thanks. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Robbing - Aggressiveness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I have always found robbing an interesting behavior. When I first started keeping bees I was told if robbing starts in a yard the best way to stop it take the covers off all the colonies. The theory being the bees will stay home to for defense reasons and not attack a neighbor. I must admit I never tried this but I never experienced widespread robbing. When robbing is going on bees do become very aggressive. When I do find a colony being robbed without any special outside cause, such as spilled honey, it is a strong indicator of a problem. The last few years this equates to varroa. The real reason I am writing this is to discuss the aggressive behavior associated with robbing, or what I call the "robbing defense impulse". IMHO bees sometimes prepare for robbing defense although no robbing occurs. Folks will say that leaving honey supers out after extraction is one sure way to start robbing. I agree with this if they are near the colonies. For years I have consistently allowed bees to clean up supers before I store them. I place them about 100 yds. from the colonies and limit the entrance. This has never caused the bees to become aggressive. I always seem to have something in this area for the bees to forage. The solar wax melter is here. Damaged comb is left here. I almost believe the bees look at this as regular nectar source. When I put the supers out for the first time I do notice some bees flying around the honey house, and my home. This stops after an hour or so. The bees then visit the stacks of supers without much fuss. Dressed in tee shirt and shorts I will consistently shake bees free of the dry comb without any problems. Occasionally when carrying supers from the honey house and stacking them bees will land on my hands and begin to take the honey on my sticky fingers. The bees have never displayed any aggressiveness to anyone including neighbors who find it amusing watching me stand in the cloud of bees at the supers. I can also approach the colonies and go completely ignored except for the occasional one that flies into me on the return flight. No attacking, no stinging, ever. The flights appear normal just as they would during a nectar flow. HOWEVER IF THE SUPERS ARE PLACED CLOSE TO THE COLONIES ALL BETS ARE OFF. Bees become aggressive and robbing will begin. Many beekeepers say to place the supers back on the colonies above the inner cover to let the bees clean them. Every time I tried this I never noticed robbing but the bees became very aggressive. It is almost like they are expecting to be robbed and they go into this defensive mode. Last week I had a few frames uncapped thin nectar that I wanted to give to one colony. I put them in a super and placed it above the inner cover. Ten minutes later I could not approach the colony. They were not being robbed and there was actually very little activity, but when I would approach they came out fighting. I can't explain this behavior but I have seen it time and again whenever I would try and do this. I noticed this the very first year I had bees. I had some spilled honey that I placed in a jar to feed back to one of my two colonies. I planned on using an entrance feeder. I took it down early in the morning before leaving for work. Being extremely interested in all activity at the time I stayed around to watch. Some bees came out and began walking around. Pretty soon they came out flying and were not very happy with me. It was like they were thinking "we struck gold and we will fight to keep it". It was a good lesson. Based on these observations over the years I have decided that bringing honey into the apiary is not a wise move. When working colonies any honey filled burr comb should not be left out. As I said, I can't really explain why this happens only that I have seen it enough times to be convinced it is not a fluke. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 19:48:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: The one colony that wanted smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most of us who have kept bees for several years have seen two or more queens in a colony occasionally. Yesterday, for example, I opened a colony, removed the inner cover, laid a queen excluder on top of the brood box, and before I could replace the cover TWO queens were trying to squeeze through the excluder. Both flew away when I tried catching them. I suppose they might have been newly-hatched virgins, who had been roosting under the inner cover when I removed it. For some reason, as sometimes seems to happen, they didn't fight. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:19:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Robbing In-Reply-To: <200007131704.NAA18049@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007131704.NAA18049@listserv.albany.edu>, Lucinda Sewell writes >I'm intrigued by the idea of a demand type feeder for >several hives to share for pre winter feeding. Do any UK beekeepers on the >list practice this system? I wouldn't even at 100 yards which I was taught was the distance bees could direct others to a destination. Certainly I have thought about it on occasion. You will see from one of my postings that I was taught that feeding should be specific to the needs of each individual colony. In addition we have so many beekeepers within flying distance I would be feeding my neighbours' bees. I lose - they lose (sugar in their honey): not a good position to be in. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:11:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard: WOW! DON'T PUT FEED OUT IN THE OPEN! You will start a WAR. Not only will weak hives be killed, but neighbors will be stung, and maybe sue you. Spend $29.95 and buy The Beekeepers Handbook by Dr. Diana Sammataro. It is the BEST beginners book ever written, almost everyone agrees. I use it in all the short courses I teach. How big are your feeder holes. They should only be no bigger than a frame nail or about 1/32". Temporarily cover the Varroa screen board with something, even masking tape or a pie plate, but don't let that sugar syrup get exposed. You should also restrict the width of the entrance, so the swarm bees can defend themselves against robber bees. Write me if you want more advice. Many of my writings are on the Internet under two different URL's: http://www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click on the lower right image http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html I hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:19:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Kelley Subject: Re: GM and beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I farm and have used some BT corn. Chemical/Seed companies are urging users of BT corn to always plant at least a 20% on farm refuge, into non-BT corn for just such a situation. They are aware of the possible consequences. But like most things that are good products, used irresponsibly they are a disaster. We seem to have a propensity for screwing things up. :) Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:05:38 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Frame & Foundation Mis fit In-Reply-To: <200007080229.WAA08684@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200007080229.WAA08684@listserv.albany.edu>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes >In the UK the side bars have grooves as well. Plastic foundation is a rarity >here but side grooves may help your problem of holding the foundation in >position when under stress. > >Chris Slade Plastic foundation is generally pre-manufactured to a fixed size. That is, for frames of the internationally normal type, without side grooves. Thus the presence or lack of these grooves is not going to make any difference. We get all our frames made without the grooves nowadays as they only constitute a weak point along which the end bar can split when in certain types of uncapping machines. In areas where wax moth problems are really serious (not here in Scotland) they constitute a real menace as a harbour for the larvae and coccoons. Most of the plastic foundations will also NOT fit well into UK type Langstroth frames, as they are actually non-standard. The top bars are thinner than internationally and the bottom bars a little slimmer. This results in the sheets being marginally too small for UK pattern frames. You can modify how this works but it is labour intensive to do so. The rarity of plastic foundation in the UK will change rapidly over the next few years as quite a few units are actually in the process of changing over to Plasticell, Pierco, or others. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 06:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: grooming behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the talk of robbing lately makes the bee world seem so hostile. Let me try a different tack. I have been fascinated by watching bees at the bird baths I leave by my apiaries as a water source. Often when I pause to watch the activities there, I see one bee busily grooming a second bee. Even while the second bee seems to be involved in onloading water for the hive, the first bee grooms her from head to tail. The groomer then moves on to other bees as they arrive. Sometimes the grooming is a team effort with two bees working very avidly on what appears to be the water carrier. I have often pondered if these bees are from the same hive or not. I also find it interesting that the grooming takes place a distance - in one case 50 yards - from the hive. I would expect - rightly or wrongly - that grooming would take place in the hive. It is easy to anthropomorphize this behavior. The altruistic groomer. The water carrier who does not want to stop working even though the groomer is intent on cleaning things up. It seems an "odd couple" routine - Oscar and Felix. I wonder how much grooming occurs in the field. This is likely a question difficult to explore, but it would seem that from a mite stand point, grooming outside the hive would be more useful. The opportunity for a removed mite to find another host would be lessened. Larry Krengel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 09:00:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ARTHUR SKIPPER Subject: Re: [FloridaBeekeepers] A WORTHY NOTE FROM ABROAD Comments: To: FloridaBeekeepers@egroups.com Comments: cc: workwax@aol.com, tomas mozer , RV , PAUL ROCHE , Orlandobee@aol.com, ListBot Verifier , irishbeekeeping@listbot.com, Ken Haller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find this letter in poor taste. It is apparent that the writer has not tried to make a living with their bees. Stop the government support, and the slave labor prices being paid to workers, and put the other country's producers under the same restriction, and the US producer will match prices against any other country on the planet. I do not wish to belittle anyone who is a hobbyist or sideline beekeeper, but the difference in commercial and sideline is as vast as space it's self. The days of making a living with 500 to 750 hives past into history 20 years ago unless you happen to have someone paying your bills for you. The farmer who has 1000 acres to pollenate can not be trying to deal with someone who has 100 to 300 hives, otherwise he will not have time to take care of his crops. With the cost of doing business increasing at a rate that is far out distancing the rate of increase in income, many times the only way to go is to get bigger. The Belle's have done as much or more for the bee industry around the world as anyone in the pasted 20 years. Horace Bell has paid a fair wage for a days work according to many of his past employees. Further more, no farmer has ever been cheated on the number of bees he got for pollenation to the best of my knowledge. To belittle their situation is insensitive at best. With the ever increasing birth rate around the world the demand for more and more food, it is paramount that we increase the number of bees available for pollination of crops. To do otherwise is just asking for starvation on a scale that can not be imagined. There are many problems in the world. Third world countries have more than their fair share it seems, but the world powers can not continue to destroy themselves in the hope of brings some of them into the twenty first century. This country would not be in the shape it is in today if it stopped foreign aid. The people of this country are about fed up with the increases in taxes for foreign aid and the decreases in benefits and services we receive. This is only my opinion and I hope I have not been insensitive to anyone. I can not standby and be witness to anyone throwing stones at one of the best friends beekeeping has had in resent history. The Belles have my deepest sympathy. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: World Market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, The recent news article post regarding Luella and Horace Bell closing their business because of imports and related comments don't seem to get to the root cause of the issue. I am writing this just to provide some food for thought not to offend or start a debate. First and foremost Free Trade is not the same as Fair Trade. Lucinda Seawell wrote: >"producers of quality honey must be governed first and foremost by their market" That would be true if all honey was produced under similar guidelines. If the Bells had over 11 employees, they have to meet regulations concerning labor, wages, insurance, and are subjected to federal and state safety standards (OSHA, Dept. of Ag., etc.). Those are costs that directly affect the profit of any company. If they wished to purchase imported queens from a less expensive breeder, lets say in Argentina, they are not permitted. (I am not advocating this.) If they wished to treat their colonies using formic acid, they could not and for the most part still cannot, due to regulations. Yet their honey must now compete in the world market where formic is allowed, queens are less expensive, etc. The playing field is far from level. >"There is no such thing as a good product which cannot be sold." This is true, but at what cost. I sell my honey at a local farm market. People know it is mine and are looking for local honey so I receive a good price. If I place it in a local supermarket in addition to competing with the store brand "generic" honey I also must compete with a local packer who sells imported honey. If someone is looking for "local" honey and they see his name and address they may assume it is locally produced. After all it states U.S. Grade A on the label, but if you look close at the very fine print it reads "sources: Canada, Argentina, United States". There is probably nothing wrong with this honey except I believe it is misleading (and I am sure it does not taste nearly as good and mine). A few years ago, Bob Smith, formerly of the National Honey Board spoke at meeting I attended. He said the goal of the Honey Board in the next few years was to encourage Americans to eat more honey. I asked the question, "American Honey?". He skirted the issue but when pressed said he felt that if more honey was consumed everyone would benefit. Looks good on the surface. I don't know how to solve this problem. A good start would be a change in labeling requirements. We need to eliminate the U.S. Grade A statement. If one wishes to carry the label "local" or "Product of United States" on their product it cannot contain any imported honey at all. And if I may be so bold, anyone that packs imported honey would not be permitted to use the above type of label wording on any of their products domestic or not. I realize the last one may upset some (and probably impossible to enforce), but based on what I have seen at a "regulated farmers market", a system is only as honest as its most corrupt individual. The consumer would have a choice and then they may understand why one jar of honey is more expensive than another. At this point the market would be governed by the consumer. Just my thoughts, Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 12:10:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: World Market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First you must figure out why imported beer is expensive and domestic beer is cheap. The American consumer buys more cheap beer and white bread than good beer and real bread but when he buys the premium stuff he pays more. I am considering selling a few jars of the imported honey along with my hand crafted selected premium stuff. The imported honey will bear a sign "cheap generic import honey" my own honey will say premium local selected honey. Guess which one will sell. Lee Iacocca sold Japanese cars with Dodge labels to bail his company out, all the while touting American made goods ( the label was American made) and borrowing from the taxpayer to save his now foriegn company. It seems the big packers do the same thing. Like selling a steak if you don't sell the sizzle you won't get a good price. If your honey is just another commodity then the economy of scale will put you out of buisness. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:09:44 -0400 Reply-To: midnitebee@cybertours.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnite Bee Subject: nucs needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! We received this message and are hoping someone in Illinois can help. jeanne lee jeanne lee wrote: > Hi .......... I need three nucs as soon as possible ........ do you > ship? I am in Illinois.....it is for my son's 4 h project...... we > had one hive and it absconded..... could not find any where.... he is > 9 years old and has been building the hives from scratch himself and > is devastated..... do you take VISA? Thanks ever so much in > advance..... looking forward to hearing from you..... Jeanne lee > jeanne lee -- Herb/Norma Bee Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" The Beekeeper's Home on the Internet http://www.mainebee.com Stony Critters http://www.stonycritters.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:17:57 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Beekeepers to BLame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After reading about the Bells closing their bee business in Florida I heard from one of our big honey producers here in Hawaii saying he was giving up. He said he had been able to struggle for the last several years with low prices and that he was just getting tired and frustrated with the way the honey market was going. I hope both of these fine men will some how have a change of heart and will stay in beekeeping and if they don't I can understand and wish them the best. We all get concerned with this type of news and go looking for the problem. Well in my humble opinion the problem is the American beekeeper themselves. The nature of the beekeeper is typically one of solitude and independence. This has led to the terrible situation that faces beekeepers today. All Americans have a certain amount of feelings of impotence when trying to make a difference with GOVERNMENT affairs. Yes Government is big and daunting and we the people can and do have a say so. The problem with the beekeepers is they have failed to make their say so be known. Beekeepers are not united and lacking a crisis of some sort will probably quietly slip away as a long forgotten group of American farmers that get displaced and replaced by foreign competition. Beekeepers can only blame themselves and other beekeepers. Currently the National Honey Board, national honey regulations, and the future direction of American honey bees are controlled, dictated and regulated by the honey packers. The honey packers make the bulk of the money made from honey sales and they have been smart enough and organized enough to regulate the rules of the honey game. The beekeepers who are trying to make a living with full time beekeeping have been willing to sit back, not get involved and not make their collective voices be heard. Beekeepers can only blame themselves. What am I talking about? The National Honey Board has long been dominated by honey packers. Why because they have the money, the time and the resources. The assessment tax) collected from American honey producers by the National Honey Board is a tax without representation. Every other country in the world protects the special interest of their local farmers and producers. In the last 8 years " Wild Bill Clinton's " relentless desire to trade away America at any cost has weakened our nation more then we realize. The Honey Board should promote US honey period. What do they do, they promote honey knowing that nearly half of the honey packed in America is foreign. If beekeepers had taken charge of the NHB from the beginning maybe a little more emphasis would be placed on buying American made honey. Maybe a larger assessment would be collected on imported honey. Why do American beekeepers allow this? Take a look at the "Sources of Origin" statement required on honey to be sold in America which includes imported honey. The packer's cleverly got control of this idea and made it nearly worthless as the listing does not have any meaning to the consumer. The consumer is conveniently confused into thinking the honey is predominantly American when US is listed first in the sources of origin. Well surprise the first country listed is not the country with a predominance of the honey in the container. Sources of origin should carefully detail the percentages of each type of honey contained in the bottle. US honey may be only 5% of the honey in a jar of honey saying Sources of origin: US, Canada, Argentina and China and the Chinese honey maybe 90% of the honey. Why do American beekeepers allow this? How is NHB assessment money spent? Well a lot of it is spent on Giant International trade shows around the world. Who benefits, the packers. The packers get subsidy from NHB to go to these trade shows. The packers can also get 50% reimbursement grants ( from the government) for their export marketing efforts. What are the packers selling, imported honey. Why do American beekeepers allow this? Testing requirements have been kept to a minimum as the packers keep the government officials in their pocket with effective lobbying and cash pay off to the right decision making officials. Why because the honey packers do not want to spend the money for testing and they do not want the American public to get the idea that all honey is not created equal. A nation that can put men on the moon could certainly develop testing to quickly and cheaply detect sugar or honey analog adulteration. This honey coming from third world producers is subject to heavy chemical contamination from the abuse of medications, chemicals, insecticides, mitacides and pesticides as beekeepers try to keep their bees healthy and supercharged.This imported honey is also subject to dirty barrels, poor health standards of employees and sloppy handling of the honey on the way to the US. Why do American beekeepers allow this? What can bee done. ACKNOWLEDGE the CRISIS facing American beekeepers at this time, not a crisis in the future but a crisis right now. Some how get beekeepers to get united and expressing a strong and effective collective voice demanding help. Educating the public, who already loves honey bees about the crisis facing American beekeepers. Maybe some public civil peaceful disobedience. Dumping a tanker load of honey into the streets and sewer in front of the white house. Dumping barrels of honey into the Boston harbor. Marching on Washington DC with trucks loaded with beehives screened and threatening to un screen the bees. Guest appearance on morning talk shows detailing the crisis for American beekeepers. Educational programs to explain the crisis for American beekeepers and ultimately the American public if beekeepers die and go away. The need for honey bees as pollinators is taken for granted and not currently understood. Maybe American beekeepers need to hold back and for demonstrations purpose dump their honey for a season or two. Maybe beekeepers need to create new co-ops for the selling of local US honey to promote the plight of US beekeepers. Maybe some education and promotion about the value of buying honey from a known local producers. Maybe a total revolt from paying assessments to the NHB . Demanding total control of the NHB so that representation can be rightly be given to American honey producers. Maybe a mass revolt from bee associations, clubs, organizations and national publications that do not strictly promote American beekeepers. Maybe a few appearances on morning TV talk shows to explain the American beekeeper crisis to the American public. I am sure there are many other good ideas that would come to the surface if there was a broad based support of the American beekeeper. Well so much for my appeal for the unification on American beekeepers. There is a crisis currently spreading across America for US beekeepers and if this crisis is not addressed whose fault will it be? Sorry to say it will be a crisis left unattended by the American beekeepers. All the Best Walter Patton President: Hawaii's Big Island Beekeepers Association 2000 Beekeeper : Hawaiian Honey House Tour Guide : Hawaii's Beekeepers Bed & Breakfast Red, White & Blue American to the core ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:18:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: horace bell Comments: cc: Bill Mares MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm not sure what to conclude from the announcement that Horace Bell is getting out. What are the 5 stages of coping with death? Shock, denial, anger, grief, acceptance? I really don't recall. The news certainly was shocking and hard to believe. I'm not sure at whom I should be angry. The article about Bell's decision points fingers at China, Argentina and import rules. I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around. One might speculate that there might be a smattering of personal economics involved too. I have also been wondering how to respond to the subsequent BEE-L post, the jist of which was that third world countries have a right, even a responsibility to better themselves and that beekeeping can be/should be an avenue to do so. Having never been to Argentina or China I cannot make a personal assessment as to whether they should be called "third world". I imagine it depends on where you look. Pictures I have seen of Buenos Aries hardly conjure up third world stereotypes. China, in my mind, comes closer to the mark. That both countries are able to compete on a global market says to me that they have achieved more than third world status, and those who cry foul based on low production costs and slave labor wages may be crying unfairly. Are production costs really that low? Perhaps when you compare dollars to whatever is their currency, but that's apples to oranges. When you compare apples to apples (the buying power of the product; what a pound of honey will buy here vs what a pound of honey will buy there) I'm not sure costs are all that different. I confess my ignorance here, as well as my ignorance as to what sort of government subsidies are paid to producers; I think none in Argentina, some in China. I do not know the magnitude. As I was composing this response, Ron Boganski made a good point about rules and regulations regarding employee benefits and hive medications. In that respect the playing field is definitely not level. But this is not unique to the beekeeping industry. The giant sucking sound as industries go south of the border echo with fewer benefits for laborers and lesser concerns for the environment. The trade off for cheaper products produced elsewhere and sold here will be fewer opportunities for those here. Fewer opportunities for textile workers, fewer opportunities for factory workers, fewer opportunities for beekeepers. And lesser concerns for the environment: more pollution there and possibly less pure products on the shelves here. The bottom line in economics knows no compassion. If a product can be produced for less elsewhere and sold for less here, AND if consumers here care not about the implications of where the product was produced, then the cheapest product will sell and the more expensive product will sit on the shelves. As Ron points out, consumer education becomes paramount to getting a good price for the domestic product. But then one is not only a beekeeper, one must also be a marketer and educator. I don't know if it possible to move the scale of Bell's production in that manner. Ron and other successful small-scale producers market a speciality product. Commercial producers market a commodity and must compete in a world market flush with cheap (for whatever reasons)imports and low ball packers. I do not believe domestic producers can be successful in honey commodities. I'm sad to conclude that commodity honey producers are doomed in today's marketplace. This is not to say that beekeeping in the US is doomed. There are combined aspects of the industry that will still earn a good living, including pollination, queen and package production, small scale specialty product production AND marketing. But, personally I do not see how one can live off honey production alone. I would love to do so, but my personal life style is such that I'll not be leaving my day job any time soon. Surviving solely in today's honey commodity market (if that's possible) will require changing today's honey commodity market. Leveling the playing field does not seem possible. Employee benefits enjoyed in the US took almost a century of active unionism to achieve. Environmental victories were also not easily won. Now we must bear the price of those victories. I doubt there will ever be a level playing field in my honey producing lifetime. Foreign labor and environmental issues will not be resolved domesticly, nor will they be resolved where they exist quickly. Educating the consuming public about the impacts of buying imported honey can be the only salvation for the domestic honey producer. These are the issues that the political groups (National Honey Board, American Beekeepers Federation, American Honey Producers Association, etc.) deal with. Would that they could all get on the same base. In the meantime, I grieve over the industry's loss of the Horace Bell Honey Company. I grieve for Horace and Luella Bell and their immediate and extended family. And finally, I must accept their decision to put away their smokers. I wonder what will be the imapct on the rest of the industry. I fear others may follow the Bells' lead. As more beekeepers leave there will be less supply of domestic honey, to the benefit of the specialty item marketers but of little consequence to honey commodities. I'm more concerned about the impact on the vegetable and fruit growers. The real impact will be felt when there are too few beekeepers to meet pollination needs. Already being felt by the almond industry, other members of the agricultural community will too feel the pinch. As the demand for fewer available hives drives up the pollination prices, so too will the prices of domestic fruit and vegetables rise. Possibly pollinating beekeepers will be able to make a good living from their trade. Possibly new pollinating beekeepers, lured by the promise of a good living will join the beekeeping fraternity. Or possibly higher domestic fruit and vegetable push more industry to foreign shores. The loss of the Horace Bell Honey Company should be a wake up call to American consumers. Aaron Morris - thinking we've lost more than another beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 21:44:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Chalkbrood and Big Business vs making a living MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a 'split' from a colony that had varroa. The parent colony has recovered well but the offspring is battling along with the worst chalkbrood I've seen. I estimate 40% of the brood is mummified. I've raised another nuc I'm waiting for the virgin to mate and lay and wish to unite the two. Should I destroy the chalkbrood infested comb? Re Cheap Imports By no means did I intend to offend people I would pay to work a season with! I feel that exactly what we mean by 'making a living' has spiralled totally out of control. All too often the living productive individuals make is subsidising theives, be they politico mites, stockbrokers profiting by a market collapse, or murderers with university libraries and color television in their conjugal rights trailers. People running massive companies, with a paper value of millions have only slightly more disposable income than good plumbers. And ulcers. Slave wages in the Empires are top dog salaries to the natives starving in the dropped hot potato that's the economy of the third world. It's all so very relative. Africa is dying. The issues at the heart of this discussion are not directly bee related. They may highlight the different approach to beefarming in various countries, and labour practice and costs, but at the core is a socio-philosophical-political-religious debate that has been raging since time began. How much is enough? 100 hives? 1000? 10 000? Where does husbandry end and exploitation begin? When have we given our children a good enough bike/education/prom dress/ start in life? When does our beautiful sports car that's more sculpture than transport become tasteless? What exactly does 'Sustainable' really mean? I don't have these answers. Ask me my point of view in 5 years when "the bees keep me" (to paraphrase Oliver Field, Honey By The Ton ,Northern Bee Books) I hope I haven't forgotten just how easy it is to starve to death by then, and that I'm still making my living by the sweat off my brow and the produce from my own labours. I'll gladly wrangle the point lucindajohn@sewellhome.freeserve.co.uk ,but feel it may be best to stick to Bees on this list...'cos it's the best one I've found to date! John Sewell. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Erick and Wendy Platt Subject: Bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a friend who is spouting knowledge that I feel is incorrect. I am hoping that someone on the list can help me to prove it. This person proclaims that the effects of chronic exposure to bee venom (as would be the case with a beekeeper) is cumulative. The end result of this (according to our friend) is that each person has an individual and unique to themselves setpoint at which they have had their lifetime quota of venom. At this point, the person goes into anaphylactoid shock and either survives or doesn't according to treatment. I (a student of entomology and new hobbyist beekeeper) feel that this is hogwash and told him so. I pointed out that the treatment for someone who is severely allergic to bee venom (one who has reached his lifetime threshold in his scenario) is desensitization with doses of PURIFIED BEE VENOM. He wasn't buying it. I asked him how in the world could someone die at age 90 having been a beekeeper his whole life and not having had such a reaction. His response was that the person never reached the preset lifetime level. I asked him how people could possible subject themselves to daily, sometimes more often, does of bee venom in the name of apitherapy if they knew that with every dose they were coming closer and closer to the set point of demise. He still didn't buy it. When I simply told him that he was wrong, he said, "Prove it." So, my request is for information, citation, articles, references, etc. that you may have or know of that would help me to set this person straight before he continues to spread misinformation to people who are in a sensitive situation right now (beekeeper family member died from complications stemming from anaphylaxis.) Thanks in advance for your help in this! Wendy Platt Ph.D. candidate Purdue University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:12:16 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: horace bell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > I'm not sure what to conclude from the announcement that Horace Bell is getting out. I am afraid many growers are in big polination trouble! Growers keep planting almonds and other crops without a thought about where they will get their polinators. This is not to say beekeeping in the U.S. is doomed. Our government is to blame for this problem. Doing away with the old honey loan system has put more large beekeepers out of business than mites or any other beekeeping problem. Under the old loan program beekeepers and packers got along. Beekeepers got their prices and packers got their low prices at the buyback level. The need to import came from doing away with the old honey loan system. Many in congress called the old honey loan program a subsidy for millionare beekeepers. The truth was it was money well spent by U.S. taxpayers because the value of beekeeping is in polination and not HONEY production! Under the old system H.B would not have a problem with moving his honey. Reinstating the honey loan program as it was for many years would give many large operators breathing room. Call your congressman! B.H. Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 20:37:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FEEDING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I endorse James Kilty's comments on feeding, at least as far as the UK is concerned. The US may not be in the same situation with different flora, a continental climate (as opposed to our maritime one) and bees not being a native species. Also I am not sure what the relative price of sugar is in the US compared to honey. The Americans often seem to practice keeping very many hives in an apiary so there may not be enough local forage to sustain them although there may be plenty for a few hives. No doubt the economics of fuel costs (cheap in the US) and driving time for paid employees comes into the equation. Feeding seems largely a matter of practice handed down from one generation to the next. Bro. Adam in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey recorded that in 1920 when he was experimenting with American practices he set up a colony for wintering with 40 pounds of stores (sugar or honey not stated). Lo and behold, next season they produced a crop 40 pounds heavier than the other hives. When I began beekeeping I was taught by contemporaries of Bro Adam and heavy feding was recommended. Lucinda Sewell makes some valid points when she says that quality products will always sell. You do not always get quality honey from third world countries though. Chinese honey tastes of metal, but Argentinian (are they third world?) is very pleasant and is deservedly sought after by packers who want to sell the best. I feed my bees when I have to, but not as a matter of routine. Most of them go into the winter without extra feed, but I don't usually take my main crop until the bees have arranged their own winter stores to their satisfaction so what I take is truly surplus to their needs. If the bees cannot winter economically then I would just as well be without them. By feeding as a matter of routine you may select for bees that need to be fed as a matter of routine. I sell a quality product at a quality price set deliberately above that asked by local commercial producers so I cannot be accused of undercutting them. I have a high degree of certainty (not quite absolute) that what I am selling is pure natural honey. The customers like it and I could sell more than my bees produce. However I am not trying to make my living out of beekeeping and the professionals are in an entirely different game to me so I would not criticise them and can only offer sympathy when an unwanted change in their circumstances is forced upon them. Chris Slade