From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:40:05 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05004 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00132 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141242.HAA00132@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0007C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 162702 Lines: 3494 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 08:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen DeHond Subject: Bee Venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your friend has an interesting hypothesis. Where did he get his information. I started bee keeping last year and for several reasons, most my own fault, received about 30 stings over the season, the last sting produced severe hives and I was started on allergy shots. The allergist seems to have a lot of interesting ideas too. His most recent statement was: "once desensitization takes place, it's best to continue getting the occasional sting. Articles he's read say that people who were beekeepers and received many stings then stop keeping bees and don't get stung for several years are at greater risk than if they'd never kept bees at all. I can't cite his sources but it's an interesting thought. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:59:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: horace bell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arron's comments were, as usual, thoughtful. In Maine we have seen the loss of many jobs to textile mills in the south. Cheap labor was the reason. How should we respond? We cannot erect trade barriers because we are in the same country. So we shifted to different industries. Or we made what we manufacture unique and for the premium market. Or we learned how to do it better and less expensive. We have a PBS show called Made in Maine which looks at three or more Maine companies each week. The ones that succeed have similar threads. For example one is a mustard producer- the last stone ground mustard in the US. They make a unique, quality product that is sold world wide. It is much more expensive than French's but it sells. Other companies compete directly with foreign imports. They survive by automating and producing a quality product for about the same price. If the US honey producers are to survive, the product must be unique and excellent quality. One way to make it unique is to follow the lead of the Germans and establish quality control at the border. But, and this is a big qualifier, the US industry must also adhere to those same quality standards. And here is where the problem hits home. We all know the beekeeper who does not produce honey of our high standards. It may be overheated, high moisture content, poorly filtered.... I have seen all that and more in honey judging contests where it was supposed to be the best they had. We tried, in Maine, to set our honey apart by establishing standards to get a distinctive label. We established the standards, made the label and had no takers. Beekeepers would rather stay out from under any restrictive, voluntary quality standards. So let's make a mandatory national set of standards established by law. The Organic folks are trying and look at the problems they are having. But if we do, we will have honey made in the US as a quality product, distinctive from imports. And if the imports don't measure up, they don't get in. But based on the amount of bickering I see in the National Journals and even this list, and the lack of success of standards in Maine, I don't give it much of a future. Personally, I am not as pessimistic as others concerning the future of beekeeping. The yearly influx of over 60,000 hives into Maine for blueberry pollination this year, and it increases each year, with the corresponding increase in hive rental costs bodes well for the future of migratory beekeepers. Even the small guy can get into the act. I receive calls each year from family sized orchards and farms for pollination services. As far as honey, why not set up co-ops, like SueBee. Flordia/the southeast/Northeast industry is perfect for this with distinctive honeys in their regions. Why not an Eastern Co-op that combines the whole and sells blueberry, orange. tupelo, raspberry etc. honeys under a single label? We are in a difficult time which really is an opportunity for those with some imagination and sweat to bring light into the apparent darkness. I look no further than all the successes here in Maine. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:28:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan H. Gilbert" Subject: bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The best authority to refute your friend's theory would be an immunologist/infectious diseases specialist, someone with a sound understanding of what is and is not known about the differences in the functioning of the immune systems of people who are, versus people who are not, sensitive to various allergens, including agents in bee venom. Your friend sounds like he may have muddled those two cases. Maybe Karen's allergist could explain in more detail. Someone who is "hypersensitive" could possibly be "sensitized" by one sting, then react catastrophically to the 2nd one. Whereas someone who is not "hypersensitive" might be desensitized by the first sting, so that subsequent stings produce progressively lesser reactions. As a fairly new beekeeper myself who does not have an anaphylactic problem with bee stings, I can only say that during the season my reactions to stings become less severe, but depend on where I get stung, the face giving rather severe reactions (which still aren't problematic for at least 18 hours afterwards and disappear without a trace after another 1-1/2 to 2 days). By the end of the summer the rest of the body reacts more to ant bites and mosquito bites than to bee stings. Susan Gilbert Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 13:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Erick and Wendy Platt Subject: Re: Bee Venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen DeHond wrote: > Your friend has an interesting hypothesis. Interesting, but incorrect. > Where did he get his > information. He swears that he was taught this in an entomology course, but that was back in the late 60's and his memory of what he was taught has become jumbled. My guess is that he is thinking of the cumulative nature of multiple bee stings received at the same time - acute exposure. This is the reason why africanized bees can be dangerous. It has nothing to do with quantity or potency of venom. It has to do with the victim receiving many stings at one time. This has no bearing on chronic exposure over a lifetime. > I started bee keeping last year and for several reasons, most > my own fault, received about 30 stings over the season, the last sting > produced severe hives and I was started on allergy shots. The allergist > seems to have a lot of interesting ideas too. His most recent statement > was: "once desensitization takes place, it's best to continue getting the > occasional sting. Articles he's read say that people who were beekeepers > and received many stings then stop keeping bees and don't get stung for > several years are at greater risk than if they'd never kept bees at all. I > can't cite his sources but it's an interesting thought. Your allergist is, I believe, correct. By receiving stings over a period of time as in beekeeping or in your case desensitization therapy, most people build up a tolerance or immunity to the venom. However, it does not last in the way that a vaccination against polio does. This is exactly my point. In order to keep feeling the "benefits", you must continue to occasionally be stung in order to revive your body's immunity to the venom. If the effects of the venom were cumulative, you would not develop a tolerance. If you did develop a tolerance, it should last without having to be stung again since the venom or its effects would hang around. Finally, what doctor in the world would subject a person who had "reached their limit" of venom to venom therapy and recommend that you should receive the "occasional sting" in order to maintain it? Concerning the idea that beekeepers who have quit and not been stung in many years are at greater risk than if they hadn't been beekeepers in the first place, I cannot say whether or not this is true. I would tend to think that it isn't, but I am far from an expert in this area, particularly since this is the first time I have heard this theory. I would think that one would return to a level of localized reaction that they experienced before beginning beekeeping and developing a tolerance to venom, but I can't imagine why you would have a worse response because you were once tolerant. Anyone on the list have any input? It has been suggested that I look to the chaper by Justin Schmidt in "The Hive and the Honey Bee." Any other recommendations? Thanks, Wendy Platt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:15:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: tomas mozer Subject: fwd:Lab to Determine if Va. Bees Are Killer Swarm Comments: cc: rvruss@juno.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Frank, the goat, they were killers for sure.

But Eric Day, a scientist, must approach the issue differently. He is trying to figure out if the swarm that stung Frank to death Wednesday in Southwest Virginia consisted of Africanized honeybees, more commonly known as "killer bees." To view the entire article, go to http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3506-2000Jul8.html also see the "VA Killer Bees???" thread in the newsgroup sci.agriculture.beekeeping at: http://www.remarq.com/read/4586/q_wIWAQqIFvgC-yjG#LR ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bobbee Subject: Re: Bee Venom Hi Karren, I,m a new,old beekeeper. That is I had bees many years ago and then quite for thirty to fourty and just started again this year. I have experienced what your doctor told you to a certain extent. I can remember when I first started messing with bees, my dad and I would rob feral bee colonies and would get stung many many times. At first I would swell up quite a lot but after a while the stings would no longer swell.They still hurt like the dickens but no swelling. Well that was many years ago and after starting over again I find that I swell every time I get stung. This might have to do with the fact that the emunity has worn off after all this time or it might have to do with the fact that I,m a little older,well to be truthful,a lot older. I've heard,not from any medical proof, that your emune system changes as you age and things that once didn't bother you do now. Just my own thoughts on the subject from and old new beekeeper. Bobbee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 00:08:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Fw: Chemistry of beeswax In-Reply-To: <200007050116.VAA10768@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200007050116.VAA10768@listserv.albany.edu>, Michael Mordenti writes >If anyone on the list can help Amy Chandler with >the major properties of beeswax for a major >A-level project this summer. See message below. The book by Eva Crane "Bees and Beekeeping" gives a long list if my memory serves me. Your local Beekeepers' Association will probably have it in their library. If you cannot get it I will endeavour to scan the relevant page(s) for you and email you with the deatils of esters, acids, alcohols and so on. Do try first as I will have to travel to get it from our library and then scan etc. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jenny Reed Subject: Re: Bee venom In-Reply-To: <200007150343.XAA02032@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello. I have no sources for what I am about to say, and I'm not even going to swear that I am right. But this is what I've been taught. Your friend is half right and half wrong. See, bee venom IS cumulative - within a short timeframe. That is to say, a person who wouldn't even blink at getting ONE sting, might develop an allergic reaction to TWO stings. A person who can take two stings might not be able to take three. Some people can take 20. No two people have the same limit. But regardless, everyone DOES have a limit. A bee sting that you got yesterday, compounded with a bee sting you got today, might cause you trouble, if your threshhold is two stings. However, a bee sting you got last month has absolutely no effect on stings you get today, or next week, or next year. You do work the toxins out of your system. And yes, you can build up a greater tolerance for bee stings through desensitization. I don't know exactly how it works biochemically, but I've heard about that treatment too. Hope this helps you figure out where to look for authoritative help (my word simply doesn't mean squat, frankly)..... The closest I can offer as proof is, my father can take two stings but not three; whereas I have not yet discovered my tolerance limit (and hope not to). >So, my request is for information, citation, articles, references, etc. >that you >may have or know of that would help me to set this person straight before he >continues to spread misinformation to people who are in a sensitive situation >right now (beekeeper family member died from complications stemming from >anaphylaxis.) --Jenny Reed. jenny@steeds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 15:51:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: USA Honey In-Reply-To: Bill Truesdell 's message of Sat, 15 Jul 2000 11:59:16 -0400 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Bill's comments regarding making USA honey distinctive could be a good marketing technique. As for the organic standards, it is not the organic producers who have had problems, it has been big agribusiness which has tried to to keep the organic products from being distinctive from their own. They have heavily lobbied Congress and the USDA for such things as irradiated produce and crops grown from sewage sludge to be classified as organic as well as GM produce. Fortunately this is not going to happen thanks to a grassroots common sense effort by many around this nation. You may get this same type of effort from packers of foreign honey should domestic producers want labelling. It is apparent that as long as consumers see honey as all the same, market forces will continue to make it difficult for honey producers in this country to make a living family wage unless demand increases or supply decreases. Hank Mishima Fairview OR To contact your elected officials see www.vote-smart.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:16:45 -0300 Reply-To: eunice.wonnacott@pei.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eunice Wonnacott Subject: Re: Beekeepers to BLame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walter Patton wrote: > After reading about the Bells closing their bee business in Florida I Walter, and tooher readers: Re appropriate labelling for honey It seems to me that Canada and South America could also benefit from a detailed, accurate label as to sources of honey. While we are at it, it would be nice to also see the types of floral content. Surely we all stand to benefit, and why not agree on a common, international, labelling standard?? Eunice Wonnacott >From The Cradle of Confederation Charlottetown, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:20:15 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Susan H. Gilbert" wrote: > The best authority to refute your friend's theory would be an > immunologist/infectious diseases specialist, someone with a sound > understanding of what is and is not known about the differences in the > functioning of the immune systems of people who are, versus people who > are not, sensitive to various allergens, including agents in bee venom.... There are many myths surrounding bee stings and bee allergies. Two of these relate to people being allergic to bees. This is a fallacy -- we don't say people are allergic to cows. People are allergic to milk or milk products -- how many are allergic to beef or leather? Likewise, if someone is allergic to bee sting venom, they are absolutely NOT allergic to bee pollen, royal jelly, honey etc. There is zero evidence to suggest otherwise. Bee product suppliers are doing themselves a disservice by putting warning labels on products regarding people allergic to bees -- no such allergy exists regarding bee products. Secondly, it is believed that a lot of people die from bee stings. This also is not true. In fact people have a greater chance of dying from being struck by lightening that being killed by a bee sting. In the USA for example, less than 20 people die each year from stings -- including bee stings. Compare that with between 100,000 and 160,000 people dying every year from properly researched, properly regulated, properly prescribed and properly used drugs each year. Add to that the 45,000 - 90,000 people who die as a result of preventable medical error in our hospitals each year and you have some idea of the comparative risks involved with bees. There is no evidence to show that people with asthma or other allergies are any more susceptible to bee stings. Studies show that about 0.8% of both have allergies to bee stings. People with asthma have a slightly more severe reaction, but the frequency is no more. There is no significant evidence to suggest that bee keepers are more or less prone to allergic reactions to bee stings, although there is good evidence that the longer one has been beekeeping the less allergic one is. This could be because allergic people quickly quit the business or that people are desensitized. Another myth is that you should use a sharp instrument to remove bee stings so that you don't pump bee venom into the skin in the process of removing the sting. The following article is from the British medical journal called The Lancet and demonstrates that speed of removal is the best means of reducing exposure to venom from bee stings. People who are known to suffer serious allergic reactions called anaphylaxis should carry an epinephrine syringe with them at all times. Their colleagues/friends/family should also know where it is and how to use it as it is a proven life saver. People involved in Apitherapy, however, suggest the most important factor in anaphylaxis with bee stings is not to panic. In summary: the chances of dying from a bee stings are infinitely less than dying from a visit to the doctor, and much less than dying from being struck by lightening. I would suggest that dying from stress thinking about it more likely too. Regards Ron Law Lancet Volume 348, Number 9023 3 August 1996 Removing bee stings P Kirk Visscher, Richard S Vetter, Scott Camazine Department of Entomology, University of California, Riverside, CA 92521, USA (P K Visscher PhD, R S Vetter MS); and Department of Entomology, Pennsylvania State University, State College, Pennsylvania, USA (S Camazine MD) Correspondence to: Dr P Kirk Visscher Summary Background Conventional advice on immediate treatment of honey-bee stings has emphasised that the sting should be scraped off, never pinched. The morphology of the sting suggested little basis for this advice, which is likely to slow down removal of the sting. Methods The response to honey-bee stings was assayed with a measurement of the size of the resulting weal. Injection of known quantities of venom showed that this measurement is a good indicator of envenomisation. Findings Weal size, and thus envenomisation, increased as the time from stinging to removal of the sting increased, even within a few seconds. There was no difference in response between stings scraped or pinched off after 2 s. Interpretation These data suggest that advice to patients on the immediate treatment of bee stings should emphasise quick removal, without concern for the method of removal. Lancet 1996; 348: 301-02 Introduction Bee stings are common and painful, and rarely, deadly. 10% of people in a 1981 poll in the UK reported having been stung by bees and wasps in a year, with 0·7% of these having severe symptoms.1 Bee stings cause about 17 deaths per year in the USA.2 Most published advice on the immediate treatment of bee stings states that the sting should be scraped off--perhaps with a knife blade, credit card, or fingernail--and never plucked out by pinching with forceps or fingers.3-5 Our examination of the structure of the bee sting apparatus caused us to doubt the soundness of this advice, especially since scraping off a sting with a tool takes longer than simply brushing or pinching it off. We tested the relative envenomisation resulting from these two means of removing stings, and the effect of short delays in sting removal. The sting detaches from the body of a honey bee (Apis mellifera) after stinging humans,6 taking with it the entire distal segment of the bee's abdomen, along with a nerve ganglion, various muscles, a venom sac, and the end of the insect's digestive tract.7 The sting itself consists of two lancets with curved barbs on the outer aspect of their distal end, held in grooves on the stylet. Muscular movements of the detached sting, coordinated by the attached nerve ganglion, move the stylets alternately. The barbs provide one-way traction, so that the sting continues to work itself deeper into the flesh. A valve and piston on the proximal ends of the moving lancets pumps venom from the sac between the stylet and the lancets, and through an opening near the tip into the wound. Methods To assay the venom injected by a bee sting, we measured the area of the weal raised on our own forearms after bee stings. In preliminary observations, the raised white weal achieved its maximum size about 10 min after the sting. Measurements were blind: the observer was unaware of the treatment administered. 10 min after each sting was administered, the observer measured the maximum and minimum diameters of the raised portion of the weal, using a digital caliper. To ensure that weal size was a valid assay of envenomisation, we measured the size of weals resulting from intracutaneous injections of 5 µL water containing various doses of dried bee venom (1 µg, 3 µg, 10 µg, 30 µg, and 100 µg). Bee stings contain about 150 µg dry weight of venom, of which only a small fraction is typically injected. The five solutions of venom were injected twice each into one volunteer (PKV), by means of a microlitre syringe and a 26 gauge needle. All stings were self-administered. The area to be stung was sterilised with ethanol. We collected a worker honey bee as she flew from her hive, grasped her by the wings, and pressed her against the skin of the inside of the volunteer's forearm until she stung. We then compared the effect of small delays in removing stings with the effects of different methods of removal. For the time series we marked five (numbered) sites on each forearm of the volunteer and assigned five treatment intervals to those sites in a randomised-block design. Each treatment consisted of leaving the sting in the arm for 0·5 s, 1 s, 2 s, 4 s, or 8 s, and then scraping it out with the edge of a credit card. The observer, unaware of which treatment interval corresponded to each site, measured the weal from each bee sting 10 min after it was administered. We collected data on five five-sting series on each arm of the volunteer (PKV). We then assessed the envenomisation resulting from removal of bee stings by scraping or by pinching. After receiving stings, the volunteer removed the sting from his arm after 2 s by either scraping it off with the edge of a credit card, or by pinching the sting between his thumb and forefinger and pulling it out. This procedure was repeated on the other arm, with the alternative treatment. Which arm received which treatment was assigned randomly and was concealed from the observer. We collected data on ten stings of each treatment from each of two volunteers (PKV and RSV). We calculated the area of the weals, most of which were elliptical: Area=pi x diameter 1 x diameter 2 ÷ 4. We performed regressions of weal area on injected venom dose and on time to removal, and ANOVA comparing responses at five (proximal to distal) sites and between arms. We analysed the removal method series by ANOVA on the weal area, with factors of removal method, volunteer, and right or left arm nested within individual volunteers. Results Increased venom dose led to larger weal sizes (figure 1). Weal area was approximately a log-linear function of dose (p=0·000016). Injection of water alone raised no weal. Figure 1: Dose-response curve of mean sting-weal area (±SE) 10 min after cutaneous injection of venom There was a significant increase of weal area with increasing time from stinging to removal (figure 2, p=0·018). Neither location of the sting nor arm had a significant effect (ANOVA p=0·58, p=0·60, respectively). The weal area in response to stings removed by scraping (mean 80 [SE 5·9] mm2), was greater than that of stings removed by pinching (74 [5·1] mm2), but this difference was not significant (figure 2, ANOVA, p=0·42). There was no significant difference between volunteers or arms within volunteers (respectively p=0·45, p=0·71). Figure 2: Mean (±SE) responses to stings as a function of time to removal and method of removal Location of the sting had no significant effect, but the tissue response (weal area) at 2 s was lower (though not significantly so) in the time series than in the removal method series (t test, p=0·12), possibly because of the presence of multiple stings at the same time in the time series. Figure 3: Bee sting in skin. Sting consists of barbed lance, venom sac and muscles which continue to penetrate and pump venom into wound after separation from bee In a small number of instances, the scrape treatment resulted in breakage of the sting lancets from the rest of the sting (the lancets remaining in the volunteer's flesh); this breakage did not occur with pinching, and it did not lead to an increase in weal area. Discussion Our sting weal bioassay accurately reflected the quantity of venom received. The increase in weal area with increasing time between sting delivery and removal reflects continuing pumping of venom into the flesh by the detached sting, and it illustrates the importance of even short delays in removing the sting. The method of removal does not seem to affect the quantity of venom received. This finding contrasts sharply with conventional advice on the immediate treatment of bee stings. Probably this advice derives from a misunderstanding of the structure and operation of honey bee stings. The sting continues to inject venom, but it is the valve system, not contraction or external compression of the venom sac (the wall of which contains no muscle) that pumps the venom. Our data indicate that the advice often given to patients--that they should be concerned about how bee stings are removed--is counterproductive in terms of minimising envenomisation. The method of removal is irrelevant, but even slight delays in removal caused by concerns about the correct procedure (or finding an appropriate implement) are likely to increase the dose of venom received. The advice should be simply to emphasise that a bee sting should be removed as quickly as possible. Of course the most important response to bees defending their nests should be to get away from the vicinity of the nest quickly. An alarm pheromone is emitted at the base of a honey bee's sting;8 when detected by other bees it makes them more likely to sting, and aids them in locating the victim. This effect is particularly important with Africanised bees, since they are likely to respond in greater numbers to the release of alarm pheromone than do European honey bees, with a consequently larger number of stings. In such a situation, reaching safety is more important than removing the stings immediately. We thank Susan Trainor for help with observations, Vespa Laboratories for providing the dried venom and Tim Visscher for constructive comments on the paper. The US National Science Foundation (IBN 9120639) provided financial support. References 1 Riches HRC. Bee venom hypersensitivity update. Bee World 1989; 70: 12-18. 2 Schmidt JO. Allergy to venomous insects. In: Graham JM, ed. The hive and the honey bee. Hamilton IL: Dadant and Sons, 1992: 1209-69. 3 Goddard J. Physician's guide to arthropods of medical importance. Boca Raton, Florida: CRC Press, 1993: 349-59. 4 Mosbach H. Clinical toxicology of hymenopteran stings. In: Meier J, White J, eds. Clinical toxicology of animal venoms and poisons. Boca Raton, Florida: CRC Press, 1995: 81-86. 5 Riches HRC. Hypersensitivity to bee venom. Bee World 1982; 63: 7-22. 6 Mulfinger L, Yunginger J, Styer W, Guralnick M, Lintner T. Sting morphology and frequency of sting autotomy among medically important vespids (Hymenoptera, Vespidae) and the honey bee (Hymenopter, Apidae). J Med Entomol 1992; 29: 325-28. 7 Snodgrass RE. The anatomy of the honey bee. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, 1956: 334. 8 Free JB. Pheromones of social bees. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press, 1987. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:48:05 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Hymenoptera Anaphylaxis Bibliography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This bibliography is up to about 1996. Bare in mind that being published does not mean being right. Note the last article, "Tunget CL, Clark RF. Invasion of the 'killer' bees. Separating fact from fiction. Postgrad Med, 1993;94 (Aug) 92-94, 97-98, 101-102. [93341967] Multiple stings (more than 50) may result in a reaction similar to anaphylaxis from the increased toxin load. Stingers should be removed by gentle scraping. The title is separating fact from fiction; note the recommendation to remove stinger by gentle scraping, which, as highlighted by the research in my recent posting, is a part of bee sting folk lore. Regards Ron Law http://ncemi.org/biblio/hymenoptera_anaphylaxis.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:50:53 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: USA Honey In-Reply-To: <200007152316.TAA26672@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:51 PM -0700 00/7/15, Hank Mishima wrote: >Bill's comments regarding making USA honey distinctive could be a good >marketing technique. This has been done in New Zealand, for 3 decades at least, oriented to tourist and some exports. The most interesting is manuka honey; Prof Peter Molan has pioneered assays of antibiotic activity. Every state public health service, and every university, should have a group of microbiologists and chemists cooperating to develop assays of honey for medical uses. Liquid honey generally is the top wound dressing, but manuka is in a class of its own. There may well be other myrtle-family honeys of superior antibiotic potency. I don't mean to play down the difficulties in establishing the monitoring assays for labelling, but it has got to be easier than trying to label a range of GE food (which many govts have undertaken to do)! >As for the organic standards, it is not the organic producers who have >had problems, it has been big agribusiness which has tried to to keep >the organic products from being distinctive from their own. They have >heavily lobbied Congress and the USDA for such things as irradiated >produce and crops grown from sewage sludge to be classified as organic >as well as GM produce. Fortunately this is not going to happen thanks to >a grassroots common sense effort by many around this nation. Watching from a distance, that's the recent history alright. Oganics are booming in many districts and so the big agrichemical corporations have been trying to tilt the playing field. Most rDNA-crops have been developed by agrichemical cos duPont, Monsanto etc (tho' not all have gone for this fad - Dow has been wider than most). >You may get this same type of effort from packers of foreign honey >should domestic producers want labelling. Could this scenario be sketched please? I have trouble imagining how it would develop. >It is apparent that as long as consumers see honey as all the same, >market forces will continue to make it difficult for honey producers in >this country to make a living family wage unless demand increases or >supply decreases. Until someone explains how this could be incorrect, I think we have to face up to it. So it's back to concepts for higher-value products. I mean no insolence to esteemed big USA beekeepers - my Root ABC 1959 is a treasure, and I have no idea how yards could become much smaller and beekeepers more numerous, but I do think those trends are desirable in the interest of bee health and of our social hygiene. As we set forth into our varroa era we'll need to confer with those who have been dealing with it. A Fiji resort may not be the best venue for a while, sadly . . . R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:05:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Competition for USA Honey; agriculture & trade policy In-Reply-To: <200007152316.TAA26669@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd like to suggest a possible source for the problems honey producers in the US are having with government policies which bear on pricing, subsidy, research, and rigorous policing of imports. Although I have the impression that commercial producers (we keep only 20 hives, more or less, and retail almost all of it locally or to mail order customers) pretty much pay expenses with pollination and that the honey crop represents profit. (I expect to be educated on that point!) I also get the impression that honey is treated as a commodity: policy governing its production is guided by this treatment even though pollination and honey production are inextricably linked. It seems to me that an argument could be made to the government that if it doesn't protect the profit end of the business, one of two things is going to happen: a) either more and more large scale commercial keepers will leave the business, taking with them the major managed pollinators on which, post varroa, there is more dependence; or 2) the cost of pollination services, and therefore agricultural production, will have to go up. In other words, if emphasis is placed on the pollination service which is shown to depend heavily for cost containment on the protection of domestic honey production, perhaps some progress can be made toward stabilizing the industry at levels which allow fair return for some very hard working folks. It seems to me, such an approach might help minimize the authority that the packers seem now to have. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, fly tying benches | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 00:37:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: Bee venom Comments: cc: benwagg@concentric.net, bwaggoner@autoprodinc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/14/00 11:45:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, platt@LOCALLINE.COM writes: << This person proclaims that the effects of chronic exposure to bee venom (as would be the case with a beekeeper) is cumulative. The end result of this (according to our friend) is that each person has an individual and unique to themselves setpoint at which they have had their lifetime quota of venom. At this point, the person goes into anaphylactoid shock and either survives or doesn't according to treatment. >> <> ========================== Hello Wendy and Friends, I have come back into beekeeping strictly for the benefit of apitherapy. I can't eat the honey, I am a diabetic. I would ask your friend to prove HIS theory. You didn't tell us if he had any supporting documentation for his theory. How many human subjects has he observed to make such a conclusion? Where are his facts? Has he written a paper on this? What is the range of lethal numbers of bee stings in the human population? Does he have min/max, averages, real data? The burden of proof really is on him, after all, he is propounding the theory. There is really too much evidence to the contrary in the beekeeping community. We surely would have heard of this 'lifetime quota' of bee stings by now. We have plenty of archived information and it really doesn't seem worthwhile to hunt for support against his theory, because it is just plain silly. My beekeeping partner and I have taken thousands of beestings in apitherapy treatments and I have had some very large daily doses of beestings when I first started keeping bees back in the 60's. I remember once as a kid being stung so many times that I lost the feeling in my legs. We were taking the honey off of 50 hives during a particularly heavy citrus flow. The bees were driven from the hives by benzeldahyde and the ground was alive with them. We were working very fast and I didn't have as much protection as I probably should have. We were just waiding through a sea of bees. I received over 150 stings that day. That is the kind of stupid thing a kid will do. I didn't have any ill effects from that experience and I haven't had any ill effects from high daily doses of beestings to date (37 year later). I have used bee stings (on purpose) to take a mole off of my face and to treat the nodules of arthritis which appear on my finger joints at times, with great success. My partner has Multiple Sclerosis and he has hopes of regaining some lost functionality. We have other folks involved in our apitherapy sessions and all of them are seeing benefits. I can't speak for everyone, but my personal experience leads me to believe that your friend is speaking his opinion as fact. I'll bet he is not a beekeeper himself, or he wouldn't be spouting such bunk! (but that is the kind of stupid thing a kid will do) You said it was "hog wash," I say it is bunk!........I believe we are both right! Whew, I feel better now :o). Bob Bassett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:45:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hank Mishima Subject: Re: USA Honey In-Reply-To: Robert Mann 's message of Sun, 16 Jul 2000 13:50:53 +1200 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) The reason why packers of imported honey may not want a labelling requirement is that it has the potential of inferring that their product is different or not of the same "quality". This in turn may reduce demand for their product and lower the price. A similar incident in the USA happened when producers of milk that did not use bovine growth hormone on their dairy cows wanted to state so on cartons of milk. They were not allowed to because those who used it in their cows feared that consumers would see their milk as unhealthy. Hank Mishima Fairview OR ------------------------------------------ To contact your elected officials see www.vote-smart.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 01:04:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: Bee Venom Comments: cc: benwagg@concentric.net, bwaggoner@autoprodinc.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/15/00 4:55:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, platt@LOCALLINE.COM writes: << Concerning the idea that beekeepers who have quit and not been stung in many years are at greater risk than if they hadn't been beekeepers in the first place, I cannot say whether or not this is true. I would tend to think that it isn't, but I am far from an expert in this area, particularly since this is the first time I have heard this theory. I would think that one would return to a level of localized reaction that they experienced before beginning beekeeping and developing a tolerance to venom, but I can't imagine why you would have a worse response because you were once tolerant. Anyone on the list have any input? >> Hello Wendy and Friends again, I have started keeping bees again after a lapse of 20 years. I use the bees for apitherapy. I started my treatments with one sting, which had a fair reaction, which I would call normal (swelling and itching). I followed up with 2 stings the next day, then 4 stings the following day. I used this progression cautiously in order to avert a possible serious reaction. I had my full immunity back in 7 days. I have worked up to 15 or 20 stings per session. My bee keeping/apitherapy partner (never previously exposed to bee stings) took about 6 weeks to develop his local reaction immunity. When I speak of immunity, I am saying that the area surrounding the beestings does not swell much at all and there is no residual itching afterwards, on either of us. We leave the stings in for at least 30 minutes, to get the maximum dosage. We have had some periods of time where we have not been able to get our stings for two or three weeks and then we will have a slightly greater reaction. I believe we are evidencing a loss of immunity with the passage of time. If we get our stings every week, there is almost no discernible reaction. Bob Bassett ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:54:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Swarm Control Comments: To: IrishBeekeeping-return-870-4137372@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All This year for me has been one of losing many swarms (and getting some also!), since I did not have sufficient time to carry out diligent swarm control especially since the middle of June. So I got to thinking recently about swarming and its effect on the bee colony. This was largely prompted by a comment made in a recent issue of The American Bee Journal - I cannot remember the writer's name - to the effect that he had not noticed any major difference between the yields of honey from a hive which swarmed and one that did not. I would have thought though, that a hive which swarmed before or during the main flow, would lose the beekeeper a major amount if not all of the possible return from that hive, because of the loss of foragers. Would it not however make sense to forget about swarm control after the main flow?. I realise that this may be major heresy but I looked up E B Wedmore - A Manual of Beekeeping, my bible on beekeeping, and found out the following: A bee can carry up to 100mg in its honey sac. Let us assume a swarm of say 30,000 bees, they thus clear off with a maximum of 3 kilos of honey, (6.6 lbs in old money). So the stories I heard about the swarm taking away half of the honey are not true. In any event the honey carried by the swarm cannot weigh more than the swarm itself! Wedmore says that the honey sac contains sufficient to keep the bee going for several days (for its individual use). Let us say 5 days making 20mg per day. Let us assume further, that if the 30000 bees did not swarm, that they would each live on average for 11 days (half of the life of a foraging bee). Each bee will consume 11 by 20mg of honey in that time making 220mg, The 30000 bees will thus consume 6.6 kilos of honey - over twice as much as the swarm brought with them. And at the end of this time you have still lost the 30,000 bees. Even if they bring in a small percentage of what they consume, surely there is a major benefit in having a young queen going into winter. And are not the swarmers taking a lot of varroa mites with them? What does the List think? Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:10:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Co-ops for honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said "Why not an Eastern Co-op that combines the whole and sells blueberry, orange. tupelo, raspberry etc. honeys under a single label?" Last Fall, at the Empire State Honey Producer's meeting, I learned that Cornell has experts on establishing and managing agriculture coops. I should not have been surprised, but I was. Of course, given the way things are today they suggest that conditions are right for a co-op. They also suggested that it would take $50,000 or so to prepare a feasibility study and then another fairly large amount for seed money. I gather that some federal matching or other funds are available. As always, such an effort would need a strong-willed person or two for organization, solicitation of funds, etc. I gather that longer term the greatest challenge would not be getting start-up money as much as getting producers to commit to supplying the co-op with their honey! (This was also surprising, but after reflection makes sense. Large producers have outlets today for their honey...otherwise, they would not be large producers. They would be asked to sell to the co-op who, presumably, would sell to their present customers (among others). The large producers would have to be convinced that such action was in their best interest.) I know people who produce and sell some 150-200 tons a year. None of this goes to packers. An Eastern co-op would need people like this to supply honey...but what would it take to convince them to sell to the co-op? I'd sure like to be a part of an Eastern co-op, and would be willing to work and invest for such an outcome. Unfortunately, I am no longer of an age to take a leadership role. BTW, SueBee imports thousands of tons of honey, effectively keeping our domestic honey prices down. They do so under the premise that "if we don't, someone else will and we will lose market share". A classic chicken and egg story that is really hurting SueBee members and the US honey industry in general. However, the SueBee premise may well be correct and, as big as they are, it would be a very serious gamble for them to do otherwise. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:58:40 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Durk Ellison Subject: Re: Bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erick and Wendy Platt" To: Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 3:09 AM Subject: Bee venom > I have a friend who is spouting knowledge that I feel is incorrect. I am hoping > that someone on the list can help me to prove it. > > This person proclaims that the effects of chronic exposure to bee venom (as > would be the case with a beekeeper) is cumulative. The end result of this > (according to our friend) is that each person has an individual and unique to > themselves setpoint at which they have had their lifetime quota of venom. At > this point, the person goes into anaphylactoid shock and either survives or > doesn't according to treatment. > See "The Apitherapy Reference Data Base" at http://www.saunalahti.fi/~apither/ Durk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 14:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sandy Kear Subject: Re: Co-ops for honey In-Reply-To: <000001bfef2f$a8429360$257e143f@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:10 AM 7/16/00 -0400, you wrote: >Last Fall, at the Empire State Honey Producer's meeting, I learned that >Cornell has experts on establishing and managing agriculture coops. I >should not have been surprised, but I was. Of course, given the way things >are today they suggest that conditions are right for a co-op. They also >suggested that it would take $50,000 or so to prepare a feasibility study >and then another fairly large amount for seed money. I gather that some >federal matching or other funds are available. New York State has a matching funds grant program (up to $50,000) that may be applicable here. The rfp is located at http://www.agmkt.state.ny.us/rfp/pdf-growny.pdf, the deadline for submitting a proposal is August 31, 2000. (This is a matching funds grant, feasibility studies are included as part of the admissible uses for funds). Cheers, Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 16:36:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Chemical to destroy colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is an environmentally acceptable chemical to destroy a colony in the wall of a house? Soapy water or gasoline just does not make sense in this case.... Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA This material is presented for private discussion, research and educational purposes only. Do not publish, broadcast or otherwise distribute this material without prior written authority. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 21:35:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: USA Honey - niche marketing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Another really good market would be a "kosher honey", certified by specialists within the Jewish community. It involves having your operation certified as clean, and not having non kosher things contaminating it, but it is another specialty industry that has a lot of following and is used to high markups due to the additional effort. Vivian >Bill's comments regarding making USA honey distinctive could be a good >marketing technique. >Hank Mishima >Fairview OR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 14:15:15 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Chemical to destroy colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > What is an environmentally acceptable chemical to destroy a > colony in the wall of a house? I have used as little as 2-3 tsp. of Derris Dust (Rotenone to the US readers?), a pesticide that is relatively non-toxic to *most* non-target life forms. Generally, though, I'd use several tablespoons to be more certain... Use a small tube to blow the dust into the entrance of the colony and it is almost always effective. Nick Wallingford - Tauranga, New Zealand nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:20:39 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: White Sweet Clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All. Remember about 3 years ago, someone wrote about "Evergreen Sweet Clover"? Well, being me, I immediately called and ordered some seed. Dave planted about 1/2 acre last year, and an additional 1/2 acre this spring. The 1/2 acre that came back from last year is in bloom. Bees are all over it. Nothing much else is blooming about now because of the drought both last year and this year. But this white sweet clover is amazing. It is about 4 feet high now and still blooming. Started blooming at about 1 1/2 feet, and continues to put out additional blossoms as it grows. Now, this clover looks a lot like the white sweet clover that was blooming along the roads. So I called the supplier and asked about that. Apparently the clover along the road (some might call them weeds) was the base for this Evergreen. They did some genetic modification to make the bloom last longer and to make the plant be a perennial (that's instead of a biennial). Apparently this work was done at Ohio State U. years ago and the company selling just recently figured an economical way to collect the seed. Looks great so far, the clover has pretty much choked out all the weeds in the field. When I examined the plants in spring it appeared that the growth was from the old roots, not just seeds. We'll know for sure next year if it's really perennial. The seed cost $2.20 per pound. But that didn't include shipping. Shipping was from Minnesota to Kentucky. Put the price of the seed at $2.75 pound. I often read a snippet about something and wonder how it ever comes out. So, if any of you wondered about this seed, here's the report! Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 22:36:35 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Feeding Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our local bee club did an unscientific but really interesting experiment this year. We started with: 3 pound package of bees Plain foundation - no drawn New hive boxes and frames. 1 : 1 sugar water Feed was replaced as it was emptied by the bees. Some of us fed the package bees using the pail feeders with the small wired hole that goes on the hive upside down over the hole in the inner cover. An empty super was placed over the feeder pail then the inner cover, then the telescoping cover. Some of us fed the package bees using quart jars as feeders. Not the ones at the entrance. A board the same size as an inner cover has 5 holes drilled out of it. Each of the holes accepts a quart jar with lid. The quart jar lids have usual feeding holes. An empty super was placed over the quart jars and then the inner cover and telescoping cover. The bees fed using the pail, took 5.5 to 6.5 weeks to draw out the foundation in the hive body. The bees fed using the multiple jar method took 1 to 1.5 weeks to draw out the foundation in the hive body. Impressive results. There was some early blooms, but pretty much the same at all the locations. The newbie beekeepers that used the multiple jar method for starting their bees are now collecting excess honey to bottle. (They fed sugar syrup to draw the super's foundation, then extracted the sugar syrup and replaced the supers without feed to get natural honey) The newbee beekeepers that used the pail feeders are still getting their second hive body drawn and not even thinking about stealing any honey this year. Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:31:20 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Chemical to destroy colony In-Reply-To: <200007170237.WAA21153@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 2:15 PM +1200 00/7/17, Nick Wallingford wrote: >> What is an environmentally acceptable chemical to destroy a >> colony in the wall of a house? > >I have used as little as 2-3 tsp. of Derris Dust (Rotenone to the US >readers?), a pesticide that is relatively non-toxic to *most* non-target >life forms. Generally, though, I'd use several tablespoons to be more >certain... > >Use a small tube to blow the dust into the entrance of the colony and it is >almost always effective. From the viewpoint of official toxicology, that is sound advice. The natural insecticides from that African daisy _Pyrethrum_ , a class of compounds called 'pyrethroids', have a good reputation. (It should be added that synthetic insecticides based on the molecular structure of the natural pyrethroids are not necessarily OK. I for one am suspicious of fluoxetine, the main ingredient of Apistan®, which has 3 fluorine atoms and one chlorine atom in its molecule.) R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:17:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Early varroa crash Hi. Just my 5 cents of observation. I have used Apistan before 1999. No appreciable drop off onto the bottom boards. Anywhere between below 10 to plus 50 in 14 colonies.( Spring 1999, Fall 1998) Modified bottom boards to screened ones in july 1999. Applied Coumaphose in Fall ( End August ,Beginning Sept.) 1999 and counted 2000 to 5000 mites on bottomboard. Daily for 2 weeks.Then deminishing to zero drop off. No evidence of varroa spring 2000. Theory : The space between combs is too narow to allow bees to get maximum contact to miticide. Therefore, either ( In 10 frame Hive bodies) the strip was placed in the spot where the frames were spread apart to allow bees to walk AROUND the strip and just not being in contact with the edges. Or as with 9 frame bodies there is enough space for bees to get sufficient contact.July is usually known as conducive to varroa increase, so I was informed. This summer I treat with FGMO fogging method. In Fall I will check with Apistan and Coumaphose as well as formic acid to compare the drop off. Interesting side line info from Dr Tom Sanford Apis letter this month's relative to pesticide contamination of honey research results. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 00:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Robbing Hi Lucinda Robbing can be an indicator of something afoul within the colony.If robbing starts it usually continues until all provisions are depleted and the colony is totally demoralised.At that point it has been shown that the bees absconded , whatever is left and the hive is empty. You will also find that yellow jackets take part in the robbing if present. This happened to me and the culprit was Tracheal mite infestation in an otherwise massive colony and with plenty of food.Under thes conditions ,when bees migrate to other healthy colonies ,they will be infected also. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding Finally somebody poses the question I have also questions to raise about. When bees swarm in an unsupervised environment ( Millions of years) Did someone fed them ??? As anyone can observe , before bees swarm they fill their bellies with honey to be able to start anew in the process of propagation !. Therefore I do not feed bees when I collect a swarm. Feeding is required under certain circumstances other than swarming such as splits or nucs. It all depends on circumstances of the location, i.e. food source / weather.Yes, I have fed bees to find out that no apreciable amount of new comb was produced but the syrup was deposited into cells as well as nectar and not consumed !.And they lived happily thereafter.Specifically, as it was mentioned , I would never feed with supers on top .I am quite satisfied with honey. Sugar water I can fix myself and do without. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:32:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Vinegar Wow Now we are getting into some esoteric stuff there ! Yes, There is such thing as working with WHITE vinegar. The theory is that the fumes destroy the material of the mite . BUT, It takes special equipment to produce the fumes and ditribute them throughout the hive. It consists of a box , the size of a super which includes a hot plate ( 240 Volts) , a fan ( 120 Volts) and a hose extending from the gaget to the hive entry. The box is placed on top of the hive with inner and outer cover removed. Vinegar in specific amounts AND intervals is poured into a little funnel and dribbeled onto the hotplate where it evaporises at 218 deg F. This method alledgedly treats not only the both mites and the beetle but also the bacterial and fungal infestations. The other method is the FGMO fogging application , but that requires a specific viscosity of the oil , which is only to be had at a specific source.It treats Varroa and Tracheal mites. These two methods are under experimentation and the results are forthcoming when compared to convential methods. Earliest in the fall. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 01:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Juandefuca Subject: Re: Vinegar addendum The vinegar gadget is used in a Florida and our at local operation . The fgmo method is used by others and I. No evidence of Varroa detected as yet. No adverse effect has been noted in either application and one positive result was established with the vinegar thing. JDF ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 00:18:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: awcannon Subject: Re: Chalkbrood and Big Business vs making a living MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucinda Sewell To: Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 2:44 AM Subject: Chalkbrood and Big Business vs making a living > I have a 'split' from a colony that had varroa. The parent colony has > recovered well but the offspring is battling along with the worst chalkbrood > I've seen. I estimate 40% of the brood is mummified. I've raised another nuc > I'm waiting for the virgin to mate and lay and wish to unite the two. Should > I destroy the chalkbrood infested comb? > > I'll gladly wrangle the point lucindajohn@sewellhome.freeserve.co.uk ,but > feel it may be best to stick to Bees on this list...'cos it's the best one > I've found to date! > > John Sewell. > beaaring in mind that chalkbrood is endemic in the honey bee, stress seems to trigger it off. try spraying the combs with a sugar solution the colony may then in cleaning it up remove the chalkbrood mummies. if this does not work then i would advise getting rid of the combs, after all you would not leave efb about hoping the bees would clean it up! you are not the only one with chalkbrood troubles, we have the same trouble at our branch apiary in north devon. my hives however are,with the exception of a feww mummies, are clear, but then i dont keep messing my hives about. once checked they are then given plenty of time to themselves. Take care and stay lucky Albert .W.Cannon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:04:06 -0500 Reply-To: Fr-Athanasios Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fr-Athanasios Subject: Ants in th hive Greetings to all, I was talking to one of my neighbors a little while ago, (he has about six colonies) and he was telling me that one of his colonies is weak because the ants are stealing the bee eggs. The ants did have their nest under the bottom board of the hive. Is this possible? Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Thank you for your response, + Fr. Athanasios ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 17:14:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Business as Usual MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been busy with my bees and writing and editing pictures for my daily diary, so have not had much time or inclination to write to BEE-L lately. I have, however been reading. As a co-moderator, I should read everything that comes in, at least to the extent that I am sure that the article is on-topic, not a virus, non-redundant, not re-quoting previous posts to the point of clogging our archives with repetition, or personally abusive beyond our accepted limits before approving. Since there are only a few of us and at any given time one or more may be away, I try to check daily and often posts are approved in real time. Strangely, there was almost a total stoppage of posts a little while back and I began to worry that BEE-L was in decline. Then the dam broke and we've had a veritable flood of email on many topics, some of which are even related to bees. It's pretty fascinating to watch this deluge go by. I'm to busy to jump into the torrent, and maybe age brings some wisdom. Once critical lesson, I learned right here on BEE-L years back when someone advised "Don't argue with an idiot. Latecomers to the debate will be unable to discern which of you is the idiot". A lot of it seems to me to be politics and opinion. This is supposed to be an INFORMED list, but I sometimes think back to Andy's injunction: "Opinions are not facts, use at your own risk". I got into trouble with one subscriber when -- as moderator -- I politely suggested that some of his voluminous quotes submitted (complete with a monstrous binary attachment) might be considered by some to be propaganda. My definition of propaganda considered one-sidedness as a primary criterion and did not consider whether the cause promoted was 'right' or not. The contributor in question did not like the dictionary I used and disdainfully dismissed it as being 'American' and I think he used some other unflattering qualifiers. I did not bother to respond, but was amused later to see a gob of very American material go by triggered by the demise of Horace Bell's empire. Once again, there was a paucity of fact, but much opinion -- and an inevitable linkage to each writer's personal biases about politics and trade, and not much mention of the fact that small businesses rise and fall for many reasons -- as indeed do the large well known ones. Bee stings are still big news to beekeepers. Big business and government are still our enemies, and GMOs are the work of the devil or the salvation of the human race, not just the same old tinkering with the life support system we have been getting away with in many areas for generations (Right, George?). People form and promulgate conclusions without examining the obvious evidence or even looking, and others are willing to guess and diagnose convincingly in the absence of any facts whatsoever. The archives go largely unread -- and everything old becomes new again. Nothing really changes and BEE-L runs on strong. Thank goodness. allen -- Come visit me at 'A Beekeeper's Diary': http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package installation & performance experiments, winter loss, fondant feeding, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping bees, spring splitting tricks, AFB, varroa, protein patties, pollination, staff worries, daily mumblings and more... Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 12:28:08 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Correction about Bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenny Reed wrote: > Hello. I have no sources for what I am about to say, and I'm not even > going to swear that I am right. But this is what I've been taught. > ... > > A bee sting that you got yesterday, compounded with a bee sting you got > today, might cause you trouble, if your threshhold is two stings. > > However, a bee sting you got last month has absolutely no effect on stings > you get today, or next week, or next year. You do work the toxins out of > your system. Sorry, Jenny, but scientifically this is 100% wrong. A bee sting last month can sensitise your IgE immune system so that next time you are stung you get an anaphylactic reaction. Allergies have nothing to do with toxins, they have everything to do with allergens and immune response. You would do well to go back to your teacher as they will have surely put many other people wrong too. Kind regards Ron Law Clinical Biochemist (lectured in clinical biochemistry for ten years). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:56:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Formic and SHB? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was re-reading a reprint of a November 1989 article in ABJ that I came across while tidying (once every decade or so). The title was : "The Control of Parasitic Bee Mites: Varroa jacobsoni, Acarapis woodi and Tropilaelaps clarae With Formic Acid' The article shows the effect of 65% formic on the above three mites using a simple, inexpensive application method. One of the ways the cardboard pieces were used was by placing on the hive floor. I wonder what this does for the Small Hive Beetle? allen -- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package installation & performance experiments, winter loss, fondant feeding, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping bees, spring splitting tricks, AFB, varroa, protein patties, daily mumblings and more... Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:31:22 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: White Sweet Clover Comments: To: dublgully@fuse.net In-Reply-To: <200007170239.WAA21196@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:20 PM -0400 00/7/16, Judy and Dave wrote: >Remember about 3 years ago, someone wrote about "Evergreen Sweet >Clover"? ... >Apparently the clover along the road (some might call them weeds) >was the base for this Evergreen. They did some genetic modification to >make the bloom last longer and to make the plant be a perennial (that's >instead of a biennial). Apparently this work was done at Ohio State U. >years ago and the company selling just recently figured an economical >way to collect the seed. I would be very interested to learn any details of this 'genetic modification'. It may or may not have involved any artificial transgene expts - and if not, it would be much better not to call it 'genetic modification'. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:55:25 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddie(ENL)" Subject: Re: USA Honey - niche marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Vivian Stated "Another really good market would be a "kosher honey", certified by specialists within the Jewish community. It involves having your operation certified as clean, and not having non kosher things contaminating it, but it is another specialty industry that has a lot of following and is used to high markups due to the additional effort." I have had an interesting experience in this regard. My wife runs an educational centre where children come to see how the bee operates on our farm. We have a wide range of people coming through from blind children to communal groups. One such group was an orthodox Jewish group. They really enjoyed the visit and wanted to buy some product but first wanted to see how the product was produced. They wanted honey as fresh as could be without being heated or filtered. This I said I could produce and so I extracted the honey in a stainless steel centrifuge and then allowed the honey to pass through a fine wire mesh gauze. In explaining to the group what was happening they wanted to look at the sieve. They saw the bits of wax and other things contained and then someone asked what the small black particles were. I sort of half heatedly told them it was bee's knees. They then became quite alarmed, refusing to buy any honey. Their argument was that the honey had become contaminated with something dead, and their religion forbade them to consume such things. Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:55:46 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddie(ENL)" Subject: Re: Bee venom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wendy Platt said: I have a friend who is spouting knowledge that I feel is incorrect. I am hoping that someone on the list can help me to prove it. There has been a number of contributions, and thought I'd like to throw my bit in as well. Different people react to things differently and there is no clear cut conclusion. I started beekeeping 20 years ago and bought a few hives from a chap (Vic Lund) who died as a result of liver cancer. The liver giving up due to the lifelong detoxification it had to put up with over the years from excessive bee stings. At this same time I would swell quite substantially from the stings I received. Eventually I learned how to handle bees without being stung, but by this time I had acquired a fair bit of immunity. My real break came four years later when I attended a beekeeping course held by the Rev. Dante Anderson. He showed us how to work calmly and gently with our defensive African bees. He never wore protective clothing and alarmed most people. Nevertheless he was frequently stung but it never bothered him. One day he was working on bees down a hole and fell in. He was severally stung and lost conscious. He eventually woke up and returned home a bit groggy. His wife then removed in excess of 200 stings. Dante eventually died a few years later, not from a reaction of a single sting but liver cancer. When I visited him in hospital, he told me that his liver could no longer deal with the venom. I have received up to 50 stings within one incident and never swelled or felt anxious. I have noticed that I react differently every time I get stung. My son had been helping me for a couple of years and regularly received bee stings. Then one day he was fishing dead bees out of the swimming pool and burying them. Unfortunately one dead bee stung him and he went into anaphylactic shock Within fifteen minutes he was not breathing. My wife carried him into the doctors rooms thinking he was not going to make it. After an hour of adrenalin and courtesan being slowly injected, he pulled through. We sent him on a desensitisation course and he remained on it for a few years before we took him off. The doctor seemed to think that he would never become desensitised but he did became asthmatic as a result of the treatment. A few years ago he was accidentally stung by a bee at a holiday cottage hundreds of kilometres away from a doctor. He never reacted except for a localised swelling. Since then he has worked with me in the apiary, hands bare and receives a sting every now and then with no consequences. I mentioned that I react differently: I found that since I work gently with bees I seldom get stung and I normally try to have a sting once every six weeks. If I don't get stung once a month, the next sting always produces swelling. Last year I went without a sting for 10 weeks until I got stung on the ankle. The next day my ankle became so painful that I couldn't walk on it. The next morning however the foot was back to normal as if nothing had happened. Two weeks later I again was stung on the ankle by a number of bees, and I was in a situation where I wasn't able to remove the stings. Once I took my socks off there were some dark bloody spots where the stings had gained entry, but I never had any swelling nor pain. Hope my contribution adds fuel to your defence Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 16:02:15 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Durk Ellison Subject: APITHERAPY WEB RING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI All, I've just set up an APITHERAPY WEB RING. You can connect your Apitherapy oriented WEB sites by going to http://www.saunalahti.fi/~apither/ApiWebRing/index.html and clicking on "API" The Apitherapy Bee. Although I've tried to make the set-up as easy as possible. You'll need be familiar with HTML coding. If your not find a friend who is or better yet ask your kids for help :-) Kind regards, Durk Ellison Vantaa, Finland e-mail: Durk.Ellison@beenet.pp.sci.fi Fire Talk # 66974 ICQ# 1954595 oh2zas ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 09:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: USA Honey - niche marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope this is indicative of the trend in niche honey sales. I donated a four pound jar of local honey to the county historical society for their yearly auction. It was billed by the auctioneer as local and therefore particularly good for you. It went for 35 dollars - $8.75 per pound. Maybe there is hope. At least it is nice to know our product is held in such high esteem. Perhaps I have found my niche. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:23:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >-----Original Message----- >From: Juandefuca [mailto:hommes@OLYMPUS.NET] >Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 1:13 AM >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: Screen boards and feeding >Finally somebody poses the question I have also questions to raise about. >When bees swarm in an unsupervised environment ( Millions of years) Did >someone fed them ??? As anyone can observe , before bees swarm they fill >their bellies with honey to be able to start anew in the process of >propagation !. Therefore I do not feed bees when I collect a swarm. Sure there was nobody around to feed a captured swarm before modern beekeeping. But then again bees were not living outside their natural range nor were they producing 150lbs of surplus honey a year. One could also ask who was building hive bodies, frames and supers millions of years ago! Feeding a swarm while stacking on supers of foundation is a great way to have foundation drawn out. It can also be a surprising way to have a colony explode in size. My largest colony at present was a average size swarm early this year. After hiving it into a single deep on foundation I started feeding syrup until they had the first deep drawn and were well into their first medium (I normaly use only medium supers but I only had a few empty deeps when the swarm issued). They are now stacked with supers and boiling over with bees. Feeding, like any form of manipulation, should be thought of as a way to manage the bees. In the case of feeding to reduce stress or to promote brood rearing and comb drawing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:24:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "- Clark Chase , Zodiac Farms" Subject: Re: Chemical to destroy colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apicide from your beekeepers supply source. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 10:43:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: Bee Venom Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Four very good reviews on human allergies to bee venom: Camazine, S. 1987. Hymenopteran stings: reactions, mechanisms and medical treatment. Bulletin of the Entomological Society of America. 17-20. Heilpern, K.L., A. B. Wolfson and P.B. Fontanarosa. 1994. The treacherous clinical spectrum of allergic emergencies: diagnosis, treatment and prevention. Emergency Medicine. 331(15):211-222 Paulson, E 1996. Anaphylaxis: statement on initial management in nonhospital settings. Journal of the Canadian Medical Association. 154(10): 1519-1520 Reisman, R. E. ?. Insect Stings. New England Journal of Medicine. 331(8): 527. Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:10:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: early varroa crash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With all due respect, let me point out that my expressed alarm was about a POSSIBLE coumaphos resistance case. Such have been reported in other countries, and we need to be alert. I'm no fan of organophosphates, but last Fall I had varroa here that were absolutely untouched by the most generous application of Apistan that the label may be construed to recommend. A subsequent application of Checkmite paved the bottomboards with dead varroa, and diligent search has revealed not a single varroa mite this season. Had Checkmite been unavailable or ineffective, I should not be even a BeeHaver this year. On the other hand, I shall make sure that I have varroa to treat this year rather than just dumping on the chemicals. My concern about possible development of resistance had largely to do with the possibility that the inadequacies of our rough guidelines for dosage given on labels, combined with the likelihood that some will skimp on medication whilst others will medicate to excess, may tend to accelerate resistance, and give other undesirable results. It would be totally improper to suggest that the person with the problem misapplied the medicine, yet we must be careful about misapplication. One does encounter resistance to proper application as I did with Apistan, or one can induce resistance by improper use. If one studies the matter of toxicity in "The Hive and the Honey Bee" one will become aware of slopes of toxicity which relate to the honeybee herself. One may suspect that similar slopes pertain to pest species. Also many pesticides exploit differences in toxicity to different species. The intersections of these various slopes makes any one pesticide a very complex matter. We might do well to learn more about pesticides. I'm neither for or against the use of coumaphos, fluvalinate, or anything else that is legal and reasonable, nor would I suggest that we freak out over a single POSSIBLE case of resistance. However, I would urge that we become knowledgeable enough, and be careful enough, to make well considered use of the pesticides we have. We also should be alert for resistance and be careful to avoid developing and spreading it. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:09:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: USA Honey - niche marketing Comments: To: lkrengel@mc.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/00 7:21:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lkrengel@MC.NET writes: > I hope this is indicative of the trend in niche honey sales. > > I donated a four pound jar of local honey to the county historical society > for > their yearly auction. It was billed by the auctioneer as local and > therefore > particularly good for you. It went for 35 dollars - $8.75 per pound. Maybe > there is hope. At least it is nice to know our product is held in such high > esteem. Perhaps I have found my niche. I've got you beat, Larry. I donated a pint of honey with cut comb (it WAS real pretty) to the SC watermelon growers association for their annual auction. It brought $145.00. That's about a hundred bucks a pound. They have an open bar during the auction; do you suppose that makes any difference? I've been working that around in my mind for some time. Of course I didn't make that profit; the middleman did.... So how can I adapt the technique to better MY prices??? Dave Green http://pollinator.com (boilerplate) Opinions aren't facts; learn the art of discrimination. Opinions presented for your use and amusement; use at your own risk. ;o) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 11:43:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Normand Gravel Subject: Marketing ideas? Hi everyone, I am looking for ideas for selling honey and products of the hive in small forms. For example, 100g jars of different flavors arranged together in small wood crates or fancy little jars to give on special occasions, etc. I already have an order for a wedding and I am working a deal with a conference center at the moment. I can see this being an avenue for a hobbyist like me (15 hives) to market my honey for a better return matched with a unique product (the best honey around "mine"). I'm sure you have seen great ideas through the years and I will welcome any input you experienced or beginners can think of. Thank you Normand. ngravel@direct.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:51:29 -0400 Reply-To: dublgully@fuse.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Judy and Dave Subject: Re: White Sweet Clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ya know, when I typed those two words, I knew I didn't know what I was talking about and dreaded someone's questions. However, being the 'absolute note taker' that I am, I am sure that 'Larry' at the Premium Seed Company, or Agri-BioTech, used those words exactly. Not sure if he knows what genetic modification really is, but he seemed to. (At least to the uninformed - me) He had immediate answers for all my questions, without any need to look anything up. The cover sheet that accompanied my first order: "Evergreen White Blossom Sweet Clover was released by Ohio State University Experiment Station for use by Bee Keepers" "Evergreen is extremely tall, and flowers from the bottom of the plant to the top over a long period allowing bees to work its pure white blossoms for 6 to 8 weeks, or longer in some cases" "Evergreen was long considered one of the finest quality and highest producers of honey for use by BeeKeepers, but fell into disuse because collecting a seed crop was difficult due to seed shattering. Peterson Seed Company secured seedstocks from the National Seed Storage Laboratory through an agreement with OSU and used updated cultural practice to produce seed" I realize that my answer here does not address your concern. Perhaps if you email me the proper questions, I can ask them and get you a proper answer. Sorry for the runaround! Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 13:13:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jul 2000 to 16 Jul 2000 (#2000-192) In-Reply-To: <200007170401.AAA24145@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:01 AM 7/17/00 -0400, Ron Law wrote: >Bee product suppliers are doing themselves a disservice by >putting warning labels on products regarding people allergic to bees -- no >such allergy exists regarding bee products.* *This statement is unclear. Are you saying that there are no allergies to bee products *or* are you saying that allergy to bee venom would not produce allergy to bee products. Many people are seriously allergic to bee collected pollen and also, to royal jelly. These may not be the same people as those allergic to bee stings, but they do need to be warned. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu ! new photos at: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 12:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Erick and Wendy Platt Subject: Bee Venom - Thanks! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you to all who have submitted experiences, references, etc. concerning the effects of venom on humans. I believe that with this vast amount of information to look through, surely I will find something that states specifically what I need to say. Thanks to all of you! Wendy Platt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 15:22:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Finding beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I get a few requests from people who are looking for local beekeepers from people who have visited my web site. Does anyone know of a listing on the internet that I could link to from the home page that gives contact information for beekeepers? If such a resource exists would there be enough interest for me to create such a listing? It would include Location (city, state etc) and beekeeping issues that the contact could handle (such as swarm removal or demonstrations). Any other thoughts would be welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 07:45:54 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ron Law Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 15 Jul 2000 to 16 Jul 2000 (#2000-192) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter What I'm saying is that the allergen in bee venom is totally different to allergens in bee pollen which are totally different to allergens in royal jelly which are totally different to allergens in propolis. If someone is allergic to bee venom, there is absolutely zero scientific evidence that they are also allergic to royal jelly. In fact there is very good evidence that they are not. A study of medical and bee industry literature reveals that allergies to bee pollen, whilst they do occur, are extremely rare. There are a lot of myths about allergies to bee products. Most of the literature and expert evidence used to discredit royal jelly, for example, is false, or falsified. In one case it is fabricated. Please take the time to read the two reports at www.beekeeping.co.nz/scirev.htm One was written by a parliamentary select [standing] committee, the other is an independent scientific review involving an immunologist, a dermatologist, an intenationally renown risk analyst, a cancer researcher with two doctorates, and our very own Cliff van Eaton. All five were appointed by the New Zealand minister of health with no consultation with industry. There overwhelming conclusion was that bee pollen and propolis supplements did not need warnings -- only product labelling saying it was bee pollen or propolis. For royal jelly it was recommended that a warning statement towards asthmatics be put on the label. They discounted two of the three alleged deaths in Australia, and concluded that there was a strong association with royal jelly use in the third. They stopped short of stating causality -- having read and analysed thousands of pages of evidence, correspondence etc, I can assure you that there was a great deal of monkey business going on and that much of the evidence even given under oath was false. In short, being allergic to one bee product does not make one allergic to another. Bee pollen and propolis has been classified as extremely safe by a panel of 5 government appointed scientists. Royal jelly has been deemed very safe. Most of the evidence regarding allergies to royal jelly is false, falsified and fabricated. Hope this helps. Ron Peter Borst wrote: > At 12:01 AM 7/17/00 -0400, Ron Law wrote: > >Bee product suppliers are doing themselves a disservice by > >putting warning labels on products regarding people allergic to bees -- no > >such allergy exists regarding bee products.* > > *This statement is unclear. Are you saying that there are no allergies to > bee products *or* are you saying that allergy to bee venom would not > produce allergy to bee products. Many people are seriously allergic to bee > collected pollen and also, to royal jelly. These may not be the same people > as those allergic to bee stings, but they do need to be warned. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Peter Borst > plb6@cornell.edu > > ! new photos at: > http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6/ > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:58:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, I don't think you can rely too much on departing swarms taking varroa mites with them. Remember that the mites spend most of their time in cells. Losing a swarm has some advantages. You have achieved natural requeening. If you catch the swarm you can use it in many profitable ways. You don't have to worry about swarm control for the rest of the season, thus saving the time and stress of opening the colony which has been shown to reduce honey production. Regards, Chris Slade Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 21:27:39 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: Belize trip MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am going to Belize, Central America in October and was wondering if anyone had beekeeper contacts there. I would like to visit their operation to see how the Africanized bee is being managed, etc. I would be happy to bring down any hard to find items they cannot get locally. Thanks, Bob Young Lindale,TX ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:32:10 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Marketing ideas? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Watch out for trading standards legislation...In the UK it is not legal to sell a 100gm jar of honey! There is also a possible pitfall in describing flavours. Regards Dave Cushman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Normand Gravel" For example, 100g jars of different flavors arranged > together in small wood crates or fancy little jars to give on special > occasions, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:57:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Labelling Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eunice Wonnacott suggests the labelling of honey to reveal floral sources. I am afraid my labels would mostly read "Don't Know" or "A bit of this and a bit of that". It may be possible to label accurately in areas of monoculture or where bees are taken to a productive crop and the honey taken off straight away, but in the UK where typically the bees will be foraging in gardens, hedgerows, field margins and roadside verges as well as agricultural crops at the same time the such labels would be a nonsense but the honey is delicious. Like fine wines they are all subtly different. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:10:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Feeding Bees MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Judy and Dave wrote: > Our local bee club did an unscientific but really interesting experiment > this year. Hi Guys Could you provide a conclusion to this experiment please? In other words did the mason jar bees get more or take more feed, did they take it faster? Do you think the results were obtained because of the better distribution of the feed? Did the pail hold back or did the mesh clog up? More please. Robert post ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:13:03 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Formic and SHB? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I wonder what this does for the Small Hive Beetle? Allan, we have been trying various application methods with FA in various materials and various positionings around the nest. The main idea is to place the absorbent pad in a thin gauge plastic sleeve on the top bars. The bees chew the bag, releasing the FA in quantity that they can handle, because, believe me, they propolise the entire package before you've closed the lid! Well, the hive beetles think this is great. They love hiding on and around the bag (even with 85%) so strong I can't bear to come closer than 10 cm from the sleeve! Remember my previous posting: keep bee space. This gives the bees a chance to pull the SHB out itself. Robert Post South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 19:14:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Robbing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit James Kilty wrote:. In > addition we have so many beekeepers within flying distance I would be > feeding my neighbours' bees. I lose - they lose (sugar in their honey): > not a good position to be in. As part of the beekeeping course we convene, I teach the students a subject called special management. Within this subject I cover the topics feeding and robbing. Feeding may be done primarily for three reasons: supplementary: whenever there is a dearth (current, perhaps, but preferably when anticipated) manipulative: whenever splitting, joining, queen breeding, pollination, etc. stimulative: we know it takes (Cape bees) 40 days from eggs to flying foragers, therefore we feed that amount of time BEFORE the anticipated event of honey flow, pollination or other manipulation. Feed mixes will differ between these various requirements: Stimulation and manipulation require thin solutions, while supplementary needs as thick as possible mixes. Additives may be used as per specific needs and include honey, molasses, amino acids, etc. Feeding may be done in various ways: In the hive (top hive, bags, bottles, etc.) - safest at the entrance (Boardman) - often induces robbing open (feeding at LEAST 150m away) with the resulting potential loss to other colonies - stronger colonies get stronger, weaker ones weaker and or die out. Feeding sugar for stimulation should never be done to the extent that sugar is available for storage - especially before a flow. Regards Robert Post South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:22:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: LISTSERV Emergency Maintenance; NEW WEB URL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I received this message from the support staff here at the University at Albany today. Everyone who has the web interface to BEE-L bookmarked should take note, as should all owners of web pages with hyperlinks to the web interface to BEE-L. Sorry for the short notice, but I'm forwarding as fast as I can type. Sincerely, Aaron Morris -----Original Message----- From: LISTSERV Manager [mailto:listmgr@CSC.ALBANY.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 1:26 PM To: all-request@listserv.albany.edu Subject: LISTSERV Emergency Maintenance; NEW WEB URL Important Notice to All List Owners: The LISTSERV service will be unavailable Tuesday, 7/18/00 from 2:00pm to 4:00pm in order to complete an emergency software upgrade. During this time, all aspects of the LISTSERV service (mail delivery, web interface, etc.) will be down. In addition, an important change will take effect once the LISTSERV service resumes. The LISTSERV web interface will have a new, shorter address. The new address appears below: OLD ADDRRESS: http://listserv.albany.edu/cgi-bin/wa ** NEW ADDRESS: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080 Please note that due to the nature of the software upgrade, the old address will no longer function. Please change your browser bookmarks accordingly and inform your list subscribers of the change. Please direct any questions regarding this message to the Help Desk at helpdesk@albany.edu. Thank you, The LISTSERV Manager ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:50:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Beekeeper database MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have a simple database for posting your contact information and allowing others to query the data. It is not too fancy but it works. If anyone would like to check it out please have a look at http://www.beekeeper.org The links as under "Need Help" section at the top of the page. Any comments are welcome. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:18:44 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Ultra Violet treatment for queens? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Back in the late 1920s the Fred W. Muth Co., Cincinnati, Ohio, was selling "Ultra Violet Treated Queens." They were supposed to be gentler and more prolific than untreated queens. Does anyone know anything about these UV treated queens. There is no mention of this in the archives, I did check. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:31:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Bee Beard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello I am thinking about doing a bee beard for the first time. Before I get up enough courage to try it I thought I better get some advice. Can anyone offer some of the finer points to this artform? (yes Allen, I have already checked the archives and am asking for even more info) Cesar Flores Colorado, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:54:43 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: fire ants n' hive beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read with interest the article in the latest ABJ concerning the experiment with small hive beetles. In short, the experiment failed due to the failure of the beetles to increase after being placed in a number of hives. If my memory serves me well no trace of the beetles was found when the hives were inspected later. The writer postulated as to several theories as to why the experiment failed, one of which was due to the presence of fire ants in the area of the hives and the fact that they possibly destroyed the beetle pupae when they entered the ground under the hives. Maybe we have found a use for fire ants at last! Here in east Texas we have plenty to supply you with, maybe I will go into the package ant business! (Don't panic, only kidding) Seriously, we do have a lot of ants. They generally do not bother a strong hive and if I do see them entering a hive I know that it is probably weakend and needs attention. I have also seen them enter a hive top feeder to get sugar water and not bother the bees feeding next to them. Some beekeepers treat for ants but I think they do a service by carring away dead bees and debris from under the hives. We don't have the numbers of ticks and chiggers as in decades past and fire ants are given credit for this ( as also the disappearance of large numbers of bobwhite quail which nest on the ground and whose eggs are vulnerable). I would tend to believe the hive beetle pupae would be easy game for the ants. Bob Young Lindale, TX ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:24:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky boehm Subject: bee stored pollen Hello all , When extracting 2 weeks ago I had a colony that stored pollen in the bottom super about 2/3 of the way up the frames. After checking that the bees did in fact have plenty of pollen in the brood chamber I scraped the pollen filled comb into some jars and froze it. Well it tastes delicious in a very small amount. Question, is this pollen just as good as what is collected at the hive entrance. Should I not be eating this in small amounts just as I would collected pollen? I dislike the thought of wasting this good prouduct but have found no references to it in any of my books, or in the archives. On another subject, cleaning smokers, in the fall I take the bellows off my smoker and set the smoker in a coffee can of kerosene for a day. The creasote inside ( i burn pine needles) soakes up some of the kerosene. Then pull it out and set it on my barbeque and light it, when it is done burning in about an hour there is a loose crust inside that falls out when turned over leaving a like new smoker. I oil the leather (neetsfeet oil) and put it back togeather for another year. Good talking to youall, Al Boehm Columbus N C ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: cspacek@Flash.Net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: curtis spacek Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Jul 2000 to 17 Jul 2000 (#2000-193) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the subject of marketing our own honey;if we all sell honey to the general public for $2.00 per pound this would severely undercut the supermarket prices of $3-5.00 lb.which would in turn cause the supermarket chains to demand an even lower price from honey packers to compete with beekeepers.The packers would be forced to offer less on the international market in order to mantain their phenominal prifit margins.Importers may quit selling to U.S. honey packers due to the low prices offered.which would send packers begging the feds to prohibit beekeepers from selling their own honey to the public.This would undoubtedly fail due to "first handler"regulations afforded to producers of agricultural products.packers may come to beekeepers with hat in hand offering a decent price of possibly $1.00 per lb.if not I won't sell to them. The larger beekeepers I've talked to bypass the middleman (read as packers) and sell directly to comercial consumers.I called a local packer today and he said $0.45lb but was not really interested in buying at this time to call back in august.This attitude really rubbed me the wrong way,but considering the honey market with all the local beekeepers extracting their honey and looking to sell it's a buyers market.when current local supplies are exhausted he will either increase the price offered or look to foreign markets to fill his orders.I'm in competition with the packers to supply local stores with honey.It's fun to beat the other guy out but it takes a lot of salesmanship. I produce about 2000 lbs a year from 40 hives and will feed it back to the bees in february rather than sell it for a cheap price.I manage to pay for expenses and turn a small profit.the point is capture the market in your area and do what is necessary to keep your market share but we can't be cutting each others throats just beat the packers.your thoughts are encouraged. Curtis Spacek Texas pure coastal area honey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:44:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.Crowell" Subject: Re: Labelling Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where I am in the U.S., in New Jersey, I have the same problem. I label my honey as to the season and the year, saying only "wildflowers" as the floral source. For example, Spring '2000 Honey from Wildflowers. Most beekeepers don't put the season or the year, which puzzles me since it helps to make it distinct from the honey marketed by the large packing houses. I wonder if more could be done to specifiy the source to increase the marketing appeal. For example, honey made nectars "filched from all over - my yard, the neighbor's yard, the school yard, the highway median - My bees stop at nothing to bring in the finest!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:04:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm Control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, You must have different Varroa mites in UK than they are in the U.S. Female Varroa mites lay eggs with bee larvae, and the bee larva serves as the food supply for the mites. When the bee emerges from its cell, adult mites are "hooked on" to this new bee and feeding from the lymph of the bee. Adult Varroa mites spend all of their time living ON THE ADULT BEE and traveling where it goes INCLUDING swarms. Irish beekeepers better learn more about Varroa mites, or you won't have many bees shortly. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:59:12 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: B401 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Dr. Anton Esterhuysen" wrote: > Hi > I am looking for B401, a biological larvacide for waxmoths. It contains = > spores of Bacillus thuringiensis Berliner. It used to be manufactured by = > Sandoz. Can anyone help? Please note, the Bt var. in B401 is not Berliner, it is Aizawa. Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:29:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Jul 2000 to 17 Jul 2000 (#2000-193) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It seems what is needed is some type of regional coop system. I had heard that Sioux Bee pays their members about $.10 more, so contacted them and got back a letter about needing 40,000 lb per year minimum contract to join. There has to bee a lot of "advanced hobbyist" or "small commercial" beekeepers who have grown past their ability to sell directly retail all their honey. I know that between friends, contacts etc I can move 800 - 1000 lbs of honey every year. If I wanted to do farmers market type things that would move more honey but would also require a significant time commitment. Just don't have the facilities to get the health department inspections needed to sell into retail stores. So what do you do with the next 1000 lbs? That's where the packers get you. IMHO Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 22:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: cspacek@Flash.Net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: curtis spacek Subject: breeding mite resistant bees on your own. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems as though the losses I've incured are due to failure of the hive to properly re-queen after it has issued a swarm.this may be due to the queen larvea being damaged by mites.I've found several hives to be queenless after they have swarmed.after 2-3 weeks the population decline leaves the hive vulnerable to robbing and eventual decimation.I have some very aggressive hives mixed with mild tempered hives in my yards.I treat for mites once a year in the fall when populations are at their lowest and then only treating the hives with evidence of mite infestation.only the fit survive.queen cells are produced from the most productive hives with little regard for aggression.comb in brood boxes average 3 yrs in age to keep cell size small.hygenic behavior is taken into consideration but only as far as clean bottom boards are concerned.by mid march all empty hives are filled with bees and queens grafted from several survivor lines to maintain diversity also swarms are collected each year from unknown sources and requeened,if not productive,with cells grafted from survivor hives.last year only 50%were treated with apistan strips losses were minor from both groups.four hives have not been treated for mites in 4 years or more and are still alive.these four are always included in the breeder group.presently I have 6 empty hives 2 were swarms which didn't make it or absconded,4 died out after the honey was harvested from unknown causes probably swarming. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 11:40:02 +0800 Reply-To: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Organization: ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Subject: Re: Bee Beard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Cesar, If you are an experienced beekeeper, there remains one risk if you want to wear a bee beard. This is a sting to the eyeball. After the sting, your eyeball's inner pressure may become so geat as to render you blind. In my experience, the key to a successful bee beard is the assistance you will get from experienced beekeepers. My definition of an experienced beekeeper is someone with absolutely no fear of bees under any circumstance - a person who will need no instruction as to what to do around bees because she or he knows instinctively what the bees need. If this is the first time you will do this, get help and good advice from someone who has done it successfully. You can email me privately if you need additional inputs. Joel F. Magsaysay joel@ilogmaria.com ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite Highlands, Silang, Cavite Subject: Bee Beard > Hello > I am thinking about doing a bee beard for the first time. Before I get up > enough courage to try it I thought I better get some advice. Can anyone offer > some of the finer points to this artform? > Cesar Flores > Colorado, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:50:29 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Propolis U$75/kg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is from Indep Newspapers Ltd, a main chain in New Zealand. Boost for beekeepers 19 JULY 2000 By JOHN MCMENAMIN A leading honey based Paengaroa company is aiming to offer some relief to the nation's beekeepers stung by the varroa bee mite menace. For the foreseeable future, Comvita New Zealand will buy every gram of propolis New Zealand beekeepers can produce, says its Chief Executive, Graeme Boyd. Propolis is a vital ingredient for many of Comvita's nationally and internationally marketed natural remedy products. Comvita has a desperate need of all the propolis it can obtain at present and its willing to pay $150 per kilogram, promptly on delivery. Mr Boyd says an annual scraping of propolis from a hive could significantly offset the costs of mite control. He is aware that many beekeepers do not scarp their hives and he hopes they will now see it as a much more viable option, helping balance out the harm posed to them by the bee-killing mite. For the foreseeable future, Comvita New Zealand will buy every gram of propolis New Zealand beekeepers can produce, says it's Chief Executive, Graeme Boyd. Propolis is a vital ingredient for many of Comvita's nationally and internationally marketed natural remedy products. Comvita has a desperate need of all the propolis it can obtain at present and its willing to pay $150 per kilogram, promptly on delivery. Mr Boyd says an annual scraping of propolis from a hive could significantly offset the costs of mite control. He is aware that many beekeepers do not scarp their hives and he hopes they will now see it as a much more viable option, helping balance out the harm posed to them by the bee-killing mite. Comvita has a desperate need of all the propolis it can obtain at present and its willing to pay $150 per kilogram, promptly on delivery. Mr Boyd says an annual scraping of propolis from a hive could significantly offset the costs of mite control. He is aware that many beekeepers do not scarp their hives and he hopes they will now see it as a much more viable option, helping balance out the harm posed to them by the bee-killing mite. Mr Boyd says Comvita is very concerned at the impact the mite problem is having on beekeepers and wants to do all it can to assist them through a difficult time. This also extends to trying to facilitate natural remedy options in keeping with its nature based philosophies. While the varroa mite has no effect on the quality of honey and derivative products, it could impact on production and the vital pollination provided by bees in horticulture and agriculture. Mr Boyd says for these reasons and more it is crucial to maintaining the beekeeping industry as a viable one and Comvita is committed to utilising all the resources it has at hand to help. ~~ - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:37:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: USA Honey - niche marketing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I am not an expert, but I believe that they were mistaken. A lot of their laws have to do with blood products, so they might have been confusing the issues. But a Rabbi trained for this would probably be able to help alleviate any concerns they had. I really believe that it would be a wonderful outlet for those looking to increase their profit. I know my neighbors in Seattle who kept kosher homes would have LOVED to have received my honey as gifts, but without it being certified kosher, they couldn't allow it in their kitchens. I know they paid twice as much for their chicken just because it was certified kosher. Vivian >They then became quite alarmed, refusing to buy any honey. Their argument >was that the honey had become contaminated with something dead, and their >religion forbade them to consume such things. > >Eddy Lear >South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:14:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Bee Beard In-Reply-To: <200007200400.AAA20781@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Joel F. Magsaysay writes: > My definition of an experienced beekeeper is someone with >absolutely no fear of bees under any circumstance - a person who >will need no instruction as to what to do around bees because she or >he knows instinctively what the bees need. Response: This is great! I think this is a terrific definition and I completely agree. But -- I wonder if there really are very many people who would qualify... -- pb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 07:46:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Bee Beard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am just a beekeeper. The bee beard apron that has a collar and waist band of Velcro's is the best way to remove bees without as many stings. Vanilla extract on the face and hands where you don't want the bees and your favorite flashy credit card for the stinger removal. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:27:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kevin P. Sargent" Subject: Re: breeding mite resistant bees on your own. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been breeding my own mite resistant bees for the past 3 summers-- I have not treated any of my hives for varroa mites going on 3 years this fall. I breed from the ones that i call varroa killers--a worker will do a shake when a mite is on her back to try to dislodge the mite. Then a few of the other workers will come to her rescue and attack the mite on her back.(I have seen this several times)And of course i can only breed from the "survivor "colonies that live through a New Hampshire winte. As i have done for the past 3 years i will not treat my hives for varroa and breed from the survivors next spring. At times it is hard to find varroa mites in some of my hives but i know they are present as i find young bees with deformed wings--and see mites on a few bees. I must be headed in the right direction raising these (N.H. hybrid italians) or they would have not survived this long after 3 years of no varroa treatment. Kevin P. Sargent Maple Hill Sugarhouse RR 1 Box 392B-County Farm Rd. Claremont, N.H. 03743 603-542-5653 U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 08:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Trevor Hare Subject: Re: Bee Beard In-Reply-To: <200007201235.FAA18717@odo.U.Arizona.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a couple of things, one is that the credit card method of stinger removal is not neccessary, the faster you get the stinger off the better, just wipe it off asap, since the injection of venom is accomplished through a piston and valve system, you are more likely to bust the venom sac then push venom past the piston and through the valve and in to your body. Second, why in the world would you want to subject your face and neck to the possibility of being stung, I fear that the bee beard is the same type of "rite of passage" as kissing a rattlesnake is for the rattlesnake round-up folks. -Trevor Trevor A. Hare Venomous Animal Conservation and Management Associates 2718 E. Croyden Tucson, Arizona 85716 (520)321-1462, tahare@u.arizona.edu Cvcerberus@altavista.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > [mailto:BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Housel > Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 4:47 AM > To: BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU > Subject: Re: Bee Beard > > > I am just a beekeeper. The bee beard apron that has a collar and > waist band > of Velcro's is the best way to remove bees without as many > stings. Vanilla > extract on the face and hands where you don't want the bees and > your favorite > flashy credit card for the stinger removal. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:15:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Here I Go Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, BeeL is suppose to be a discussion of honeybee biology. As someone who has been educated in the field of biology I would find discussions, that most would probably find boring, interesting,. However, BeeL has evolved into something more than that. Ideas, facts, thoughts, and, of course, opinions about bees and all aspects of beekeeping are shared here. It not just a place for anyone to jump in and ask a question that has been asked and toughly discussed a few months earlier. (There are other lists for that.) When this happens Allen kindly reminds us (as he should) about the archives, and that one should do their homework before posting. When I relay information I learned on this list to others, I don't say "I read on the Internet", I say "A friend of mine told me". Maybe I am taking liberty here but that is the way I feel. I have received enough personal messages from list members over the years to know I am right in that we are friends. I am thankful to be part of this group of beekeepers. So at the risk of filling the archives with one more post of opinionated drivel, here I go again. Curtis Spacek wrote: "if we all sell honey to the general public for $2.00 per pound this would severely undercut the supermarket prices of $3-5.00 lb. which would in turn cause the supermarket chains to demand an even lower price from honey packers to compete with beekeepers." $3-5.00 lb supermarket price, wow, things are bigger in Texas . Average supermarket price everywhere I have been is $2.25 to 2.50, with store brand generic running at or below $2.00. Curtis, I see where you are going but it just won't work. Trying to undercut a packer is like wrestling a pig in the mud. After a while you begin to realize they enjoy it. For the most part they are not beekeepers and their whole business revolves around buying low, selling high, and dealing with the competition. I can't compete with them and I don't want to. They will always find someone willing to sell them honey cheap enough to allow them to keep them going. If you limit their sources, as some would suggest by stopping imports, that may help but I don't think it is the way to go. There will always be ways around that and I don't wish to deprive any beekeeper a chance to sell their honey. I am firmly convinced that cutting prices only hurts the beekeeper. I believe the answer is to distance ourselves from those who pack and sell cheap honey. It is a sin to produce a quality product and sell it cheap. My son started cutting grass for a neighbor. He cuts two acres and is paid by the hour. Because she is not always home he keeps his own hours. He told me it took him five hours but he would only charge four. I asked if he worked all five hours. The answer was yes but he thought if he charged her too much she may ask someone else. I went over and inspected the job. It was excellent (he never does this well at home). I told him so and to charge what he is worth. If she can find someone willing to do the job for less, then she has the option of hiring them. However, I think doing it in less time the quality will suffer and she would be disappointed. IMHO, there are three things that govern what a consumer will purchase: Price, convenience, and quality. If your product can provide two out of three of these you have a winner. Lately, supermarkets in my area started selling precooked meals. They are appealing to folks who would like a home cooked meal but don't have the time to prepare one. They cost much more than it would to prepare it on your own but they are convenient and good. People are willing to pay more for this service. I think American beekeepers have a good product. Most of our floral sources produce great tasting honey. Selling it here as domestically produced should bring a premium. However, I am not suggesting that just because imported honey is cheap it is of inferior quality, or just because honey is produced domestically it is always superior. The consumer will make that decision. My argument is that they need to be informed and then allowed to choose. I think some folks will buy honey strictly by price alone, others will spend more money for specialty or local products. The trick is to educate the consumer on the difference and then allow them to choose. An uninformed consumer, that thinks all honey is the same, is probably one of our biggest problems. I am sure some will disagree, but as always, it is what I think. Ron Bogansky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 16:30:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kevin Roberts Subject: Re: Here I Go Again... and honey packer's different priorities Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit BOGANSKY,RONALD J. wrote: ...I think some folks will buy honey strictly by price alone, others >will spend more money for specialty or local products. The trick is to >educate the consumer on the difference and then allow them to choose. An >uninformed consumer, that thinks all honey is the same, is probably one of >our biggest problems. Ron, your point is well taken. But I have found that honey packers have different priorities. One packer I sold to last year explained to me that from his point of view, providing specialty honeys to the general public hurt his overall sales. When a particularly good variety was marketed, such as California sage, purchasers liked it so well that it became a "sale blocker"--his term. The next time they looked for honey on the shelf, if they couldn't find the same variety, they wouldn't purchase any at all. Sage doesn't produce every year, so his point was that for every jar of varietal honey he sold today, he didn't sell one tomorrow. His solution is to blend and sell only the American standards: Yellow honey, or Brown honey. Interestingly, his other example of a sale blocker was a jar of honey that tasted so bad that the buyer couldn't finish it, but wouldn't buy any more because "he still had a jar of honey in the cupboard..." This packer saw consumer education about honey as not being in his own best interests. His priorities regarding informing the consumer were very different from those of a beekeeper, or at least this one. Kevin Roberts California ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 19:32:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa Mites and swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, Of course I agree that swarms will carry varroa mites, but during the swarming season a mite will spend maybe 2-3 days on adult bees but 16 days in a capped drone cell. From this it follows that at that time of year about 4 out of 5 mites in a colony will be on larvae, not on adults. If a swarm leaves with say, half the adult bees they will take with them about half of the mites NOT in the cells, ie, only about 10% of the total mites in the colony. If a swarm is hived and starts to rear brood it is very likely that the mites will enter the first cells just before they are capped, say a week later. If this first frame of capped brood is removed a great proportion of that 10% will also be removed. These are rough and ready figures only but indicate that taking shook/ Taranov swarms may be a way of reducing mite levels for a while without using chemicals. It is far from being a complete answer to the mite but may be one more tool in the box. Regards, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 20:39:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Here I Go Again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ron, YOU ARE SO RIGHT! What a wonderful note. In my 68 years of beekeeping, I have never "sold" a jar of honey in my entire life. I SELL people the DESIRE to buy George Imirie's Honey regardless of the price, and my prices are a LOT higher than the grocery store. Before my strokes, I used to sell 10,000-12,000 pounds of honey each year, mostly at Maryland Fairs or nearby Virginia Fairs; ALWAYS with one or two Observation Hives and Marked Queens and gift packaged honey. Right now I am taking orders for Christmas Gifts of 8 different honeys in flavor and color each in a one ounce hex jar all aligned in a wooden crate that I build. This is 8 ounces of honey, the Gift Sampler sells for $12, so I am getting $24/pound for the honey. I will sell several 100 of these between now and Christmas. My cheapest honey is $3.50 per pound. My comb honey is $5/pound, honey sticks are 2/35¢ or 7/$1, creamed honey is $4/12 ounces. I, and my wife, sons, and daughter-in-law engage all customers in conversation about honey pollination, how honey is made, not getting stung, and the purity of honey. I am quick to tell people "if you just want honey at a cheap price, go to the local grocery store and pay $2.69/pound for that jar of sweetness, but if you want quality and knowledge about the bees and all about honey, come see George and pay the price" I have people calling me long distance and I ship honey all over the East coast at my prices. It takes years to build that reputation, but is all I have now - TIME. I still put on 3 demonstrations per day for 9 days at our Montgomery County Fair of opening one of several bee hives in a big screen wire cage talking about bees and their importance to our human food because of pollination and I do this with no protective clothing or NO VEIL just to prove that honey bees are defensive and not aggressive if one understands bee behavior; and I have had 5 strokes and can't walk but I can still take care of my bees. After my demo's, they crowd my honey house booth to buy George's Honey "by the gallon" and at my prices. Ron, some people buy Cadillacs, some buy Rollex watches, some buy 20 year old premium whiskey at a high price and some go to overseas for a vacation. They don't compare prices at a grocery store, and people will pay a good price for a quality honey, well packaged, and well PRESENTED. I know of some price complainers who sell their honey in old pickle jars or peanut butter jars, and I laugh in their face when I hear them bitching about the price of honey today. Like anything else, get off your butt, and get your mind in gear. Sorry I get so carried away, but that is just part of my love of beekeeping and the success in it that I have had for over a half century. Will I see you at EAS2000 in Salisbury in 10 days? Please shake my hand! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:18:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: An experience with plastic foundation in top bars MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With all things agricultural, changing anything is apt to produce unexpected results, and often not in accordance with the myths one is told. When I made some top bars with plastic foundation I was told that the bees would make a horrible mess attaching them. They did, but a couple scrapings trained them to cease the attachments, and I've got some combs as nice as you could desire which the bees do not attach. However, yesterday at lunchtime I was aroused by a roar from my apiary. An immense and impressive swarm was in the air, about to alight in a spruce tree. Since it might be difficult to extricate the swarm from so bushy a tree, I immediately felled it, apparently killing the queen of the swarm, which caused the swarm to return to its stand. I always make sure that my combs are top notch to facilitate the finding and cutting of swarm cells, so wondering how the little ladies could have bamboozled me, I went in this morning to investigate. Sure enough, since the top bar combs lack end bars, both new and used cells were found attached to the ends of the top bar combs, and not particularly visible from the bottoms of the frames. I saw as well a fine young queen, as pretty an animal as one might desire. Since this yard is the breeding yard, containing the best stock, no harm was done, and a lesson was learned. Bees are amusing. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:53:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: APICURE and timing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, The directions on apicure say to leave on the hive for 21 days. Then = there must bee four weeks before supers are returned to a hive. The = instructions say that it is most effective when little or no brood = rearing is taking place. My question is this should I treat in august = or after the goldenrod flow somewhere in September? I plan on using = formic twice a year(spring & fall) and IPM management to control varroa = and TM. What do the members of the list recommend? Thanks in advance. Clayton Huestis Crown Point, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 12:18:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Jul 2000 to 17 Jul 2000 (#2000-193) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Why don't hobbyist, sideliners,and small commercial operators pool there honey in a small coop. This coop now joins Sioux Bee. If 40- 50 of us join together and produce 1000-2000 pounds each we meet the 40,000 lb. a year contract. Among ourselves we have subcontracts what each member thinks he can produce. We will be a miniature version of what they are doing. This might give us a little better price and maybe a chance. Just an idea. Clayton Huestis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 13:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Co-OP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would wonder if commercial operators would "rent" empty supers and frames to sideline and hobby keepers who would then turn in the filled supers for a percentage of the results. The commercial operator who has the processing capacity could handle the work for the smaller operators . The smaller operators get paid when the larger crop gets sold. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:28:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Varroa Mites and swarms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Chris Slade wrote (in part): >Of course I agree that swarms will carry varroa mites, but during the >swarming season a mite will spend maybe 2-3 days on adult bees but 16 days in >a capped drone cell. From this it follows that at that time of year about 4 >out of 5 mites in a colony will be on larvae, not on adults. If a swarm >leaves with say, half the adult bees they will take with them about half of >the mites NOT in the cells, ie, only about 10% of the total mites in the >colony. A swarm entered one of my swarm hives, at which time I snuffed out the bees, dumped them into soapy water, and counted the varroa mites. In that swarm of about 2000 bees, I found 57 varroa mites. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept the fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally accepted." * * --- Claude Bernard, 1865 ******************************************************************** From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:40:05 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05017 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00145 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:43:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141243.HAA00145@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0007E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 16102 Lines: 368 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 13:48:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kfm@MAIL.IPINC.NET Subject: Using a nuc to requeen a hive with queen cells I looked into one of my hives and found that it was queenless, but with several sealed queen cells. I have a nuc that I am thinking of requeening the hive with. Will the queen cells complicate requeening this way? Should I do something else? Thanks, --Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 19:05:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: Using a nuc to requeen a hive with queen cells In-Reply-To: <200007292152.RAA13464@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you successfully combine the NUC with its queen, the most probable result would be for her to kill the queens in cells. If one or more hatch, they might fight to the death of one. If you leave the queenless hive alone, they should hatch a queen and send her out on a mating flight. This will take longer than blending the NUC with the hive [I am assuming the queen in the NUC is producing brood patterns you like. If you do, destroy the queen cells and let her take over]. If you have some clue as to what the sealed queens will be like AND the composition of the field of drones with whom she will mate, AND are lucky enough that she will mate with many fertile drones of good quality, AND she makes it home without being eaten by a bird or bug, allowing the hive to raise their own would be preferable. It is cheaper than buying queens BUT if you get a bad one, you get what you pay for. For me it is an easy decision: I buy the queens I want from someone I trust, start them in a NUC and, if their pattern looks good, I get rid of the hive queen I don't want and blend the NUC with the now queenless hive. If the queen in the NUC is not performing as I wish her to do [I have one now who seems to refuse to lay in more than two frames even though her pattern is good and she is now in a 9 frame hive and will put her in an observation hive] I will try again with another purchased queen. [Supercedure won't work for me, since I keep Carniolans and two neighbors less than a mile away keep Italians]. John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: cspacek@mail.ev1.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Curtis Spacek Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 27 Jul 2000 to 29 Jul 2000 (#2000-10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I looked into one of my hives and found that it was queenless, but with several > sealed queen cells. I have a nuc that I am thinking of requeening the hive > with. Will the queen cells complicate requeening this way? Should I do > something else? > Chris it seems the prudent thing to do would be to requeen the hive with the queen from the nuc and place the frame with queen cells in the nuc.let the queens hatch out and mate.the queen which is left can then be evaluated.if the requeening didn't take then you will still have another queen for your hive. Curtis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 11:19:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jjr22 Subject: honey wine (liqueur?) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Grappa is indeed an Italian distilled liquor, and quite strong and tasty, but it comes from grapes (actually the crushed grapes after juice is removed for wine, I think) and not honey. I have had some tasty mead at Ethiopian restaraunts and it does seem like a good niche market. Technically it is honey wine, with an alcohol level around 12%. A liqueur could be produced using distillation but I've never had a honey liqueur. Has anybody out there? Jonathan Ruel Flagstaff, AZ, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mitchell Subject: "informed" beekeeping In-Reply-To: <200007252038.QAA16763@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would anyone here have recommendations for informative web sites, email lists etc. for beginning beekeepers? This list is intended for "informed discussion" - but where is the best place online to become "informed"? Thank you, Deanna Mitchell Family Farm Cherryvale, KS mailto:dteach@hit.net See mom's quilts at: http://www.quiltsnmore.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:55:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Giacomo Omallini Organization: Apicoltura on line Subject: Re: Apivar and resistance in varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Max Watkins ha scritto: > > > Coumaphos resistance is now widespread in Italy also. > hello http://www.apicolturaonline.it/milani.htm Sviluppo di resistenza ai fosforganici in Varroa Jacobsoni? Summary Adult female Varroa jacobsoni mites were sampled in the province of Reggio Emilia (Northern Italy), where field trials had shown a decreased efficacy of Perizin in some apiaries, and assayed for resistance to coumaphos by using a laboratory test. In some samples, the tolerance at 20 ppm coumaphos was significantly larger than that observed in a reference susceptible population; 1.5% mites of the mites assayed at 50 ppm survived (expected survival in a susceptible population ~ 0.1%), but all the 430 mites assayed at 100-500 ppm died. These data show an increase in the tolerance to coumaphos at least in some apiaries, but do not make it possible to conclude that a small proportion of highly resistant mites is present. Giorgio Della Vedova*,Marco Lodesani**,Norberto Milani* *Dip. di Biologia applicata alla Difesa delle Piante,Universitą di Udine **Istituto Nazionale di Apicoltura,Bologna. Da l'APE NOSTRA AMICA numero 1 gennaio-febbraio 1997 Dossier Varroa file pdf http://www.apicolturaonline.it/DossierVarroa.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------- Giacomo Omallini Apicoltura on line http://www.apicolturaonline.it email info@apicolturaonline.it Tel.0775 408019 03011 Alatri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 07:05:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Irish Beekeeping Course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The Beekeeping Course held annually at Gormanston, Co Meath, Ireland has just ended and was in my opinion the best I ever attended. We had, as usual many visitors from overseas. Any I spoke with expressed great satisfaction with their visit. Michael Woulfe, the Course Convenor announced that the 2001 course will commence at Gormanston on Monday 23rd July next. He expressed the hope that the above date will be entered in as many diaries as possible. Michael is now taking bookings for next year. You can reach him at Railway House Midleton Co Cork Ireland or telephone him at + 353 21 631011 Sincerely Tom Barrett 49 South Park, Foxrock Dublin 18 Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 10:58:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Horse Fly Spray Caution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bee-L Caution should be used when using common fly sprays such as "Permectrin II" or "Absorbine Ultra Shield"on horses with beehives in the vicinity. These types of products can enrage passing bees and result in a dangerous stinging incident for both horse and rider. I have kept my bees around horses for 30 years without incident. However, a landowner began using these products daily on her favorite horse who would be tied up in the same spot for each application. After several days enraged bees began stinging both horse and rider and people in that area. The bees were located about 100 feet away behind a building which forced them to fly 20 feet high when flying in the direction of the hitching rack. A light honey flow was on at the time. Winds were calm. No bees were noted during an initial inspection of the area. Neither horses nor people were being bothered. An inspection of the bee yard failed to yield any aggressive bees or hives. The hives were not being harassed by skunks or wasps. A horse was tied to the rack and not a bee appeared. After a while the owner took the opportunity to apply the fly spray with a hand sprayer. Within 2 minutes angry bees began to appear and instantly sting any moving object in the immediate area. The bees would fly at full speed headfirst into the ground where any over spray had fallen. I again inspected the bee yard for an angry hive but the yard was calm. I sprayed a small amount of the fly spray on a paper towel and walked back to the bee yard. Initially the yard was a calm as before, but within 30 seconds the stinging started again. Within a minute the stinging became quite vicious. I have been a commercial beekeeper and have worked many yards of angry bees. However the rapidity and intensity of the stinging in response to the fly spray has only been matched by working a yard of the meanest bees at the worst time. Be Careful Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:14:28 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: 'harmonization' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 10:22 PM -0400 00/7/27, Adony Melathopoulos wrote: >Has anybody ever checked the honey being imported to see if there is any >trace of illegal drugs in the honey? ... >Wallner, K. 1999. Varroacides and their residues in bee products. >Apidologie. 30: 235-248. > >The paper states that in the US there are official residues for honey for >fluvalinate and amitraz. ... >Somebody else on the list may be able to provide a perspective on where >harmonization sits today. That is an important question. My detailed direct experience was only the first dozen years of the NZ regulatory system for poisons, from 1979. That system has now been superseded by new statutes but the basic relationship between industry and bureaucracy has not improved. The main method is to set permissible levels far above prevalent & foreseen environmental levels, so that what is actually being imposed on people by industry could not be restricted by the permissible levels. Perhaps the earliest famous example was the old USAEC permissible exposure to ionizing radiation for the general public, 0.17rem/y, exposed by the admirable Prof John Gofman. The 'default very low' setting is a more recent twist, referred to by Adony. These settings sit there in abstraction until some party desires to impose higher doses. The application to do so (e.g. to raise 200-fold the permissible glyphosate levels in Australasian food, to legitimise RRĘ soybeans and cotton linters) can often go smoothly. It must be added here that monitoring is scanty, and when actual contamination exceeds permissible levels (e.g. in a NZ 'food basket' survey) no penalty will usually result. The general game is a charade to present an appearance of regulation while actual pollution is not significantly curbed. Sometimes a particular chemical, or a particular GMO, gets spotlighted (usually these days by some ignorant PowerHarpie or Angry Aborigine). I had the honour of spotlighting dioxin and 2,4,5-T from 1971 with Prof R B Elliott and a growing number including Greepneace. But there were 17 subsequent years of 2,4,5-T manufacture. Such a system regulates rather little. I suspect the USA system is becoming more complex, arcane, commercial, and illogical. Ours sure is. Meanwhile the rule-fixated WTO largely keeps out of the GEF controversy. ANZFA, created to harmonize food standards across Australia & New Zealand, is an even rubberier stamp than ERMA, dominated by industry claims. 'Harmonization' seems usually to mean imposing the weakest regime on other countries, as if no nation has any right to impose more serious restrictions than the most permissive allowed elsewhere. The effect of this 'lowest common denominator' approach will be that the standards set by the most corrupt govts will overwhelm those suggested by more scrupulous societies. This mode of global misconduct encourages dangerous pollution. What does not happen in all these varieties of charades is regulatory action to protect ecosystems from the dangerous processes of distributing poisons and of growing GM crops. Gambling is *in*. Dawkins is feted as if a serious scientist. The reputable scientist Pusztai is vilified. Prince Charles' brilliant science-based leadership is mocked on grounds such as the size of his ears and other irrelevant criteria. And in all this, critics of GM are depicted as unscientific. It is true that some of them are - and the media focus on them to the virtual exclusion of science-based critics. But the more important truth is that science-based conservationists on environmental toxins, and on GM, are far more scientifically scrupulous than the PR agents who are hired to make out that it's all OK. The further menace is scientists & medicos who play down hazards because they want freedom to play God. These defiances present democracy with some of its most serious challenges. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949