From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:40:08 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05026 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00157 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:43:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141243.HAA00157@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:42:58 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0008D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 129534 Lines: 2836 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:45:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Apivar and resistance in varroa In-Reply-To: <200007311224.IAA14372@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Apologies for the late reply to the recent message of Snr Omallini to the List. I've just today returned from business out of the office. Caro Snr Omallini, Grazie per il tuo messagio e hai raggione. Pero, le prove di Milani sono 1997. Siamo adesso 2000 e il sembre un problema maggiore con fosforganici nel Nord (d'Italia). Per favore di parlare dei apicoltori di Lombardia e Piemonte. Anche in Spagna dove il problemma e piu avancato. For the List: It has been pointed out by Snr Omallini that studies in Italy in 1997 showed that a tolerance to coumaphos was building up in Northern Italy but the difference between susceptible and tolerant strains was not great enough to call it resistance. That, however, was in 1996/early '97. By the end of 1999, hives were succumbing to varroa in Northern Italy, following treatment with coumaphos, with huge numbers of mites surviving. This seems to be true resistance in varroa to coumaphos. There is no data on how widespread the problem is as yet. Greater, or rather more advanced, problems have emerged in Spain with a related organophosphate, chlorfenvinfos, used illegally as a varroa treatment. In Spain, not only is the treatment no longer effective due to organophosphate resistance in varroa but the substance contaminates the honey as well as the wax. It should be expected to see published papers on this phenomenon in the near future. Best regards, Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited Brook House, Alencon Link Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7RD UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 http://www.vita.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Varroa tolerance/resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the last submission. It was sent by mistake. In referrence to the words tolerant and resistant. Tolerant means that the varroa mite can be present in the colony population but the colony is successful anyway. Resistant means that the colony has developed a method of irradicating the varroa mite from the colony population. Therefor the way the two words as used in the two articles of AUG, 2000 issue of ABJ are mutually compatible. Mike Stoops Excel, Alabama - 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:28:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: Anyone in Washington State/Seattle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm planning to visit a relative just outside Seattle - around about 18th September for 2 weeks. Just wondered if there are any beekeepers out there who I could visit, swop stories, etc. Madeleine Pym London Beekeeper Seasonal Bee Inspector in West Surrey. mpym@hive.netkonect.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: FW: Varroa Test On Wed, 9 Feb 2000 07:55:19 -0700, Allen Dick wrote: >Forwarded From: beekeeping@onelist.com >Author: docbull >Subject: NEW VARROA MITE FIELD TEST It's while since I forwarded this message to the list. Since then there have been a few posts on the topic, some wondering about the details, some clarifying them. I thought that I had previously posted the reference URLs, but an interesting wild-goose-chase style archive search proved otherwise. (But turned up lots of other unrelated fascinating stuff I'd forgotten about). Anyhow, I'll belatedly post the links here: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis_2000/apfeb_2000.htm#2 and http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Art icle2 (watch for word-wrap on that last one) The reason I am writing today is that I have now tried the method and want to compare notes with others who have done so. I realise it is still early for ideal results, since most of the mites are still in the large amount of brood in those of my hives which have queens , but we thought we would get an idea if there is a problem developing. What we find amazing is that we have sampled about fifteen yards so far and not found one mite. We know we have varroa. Where is it? We are using a wide-mouth mason jar with 8-mesh harware cloth and that seems to work well, but I think we have been using too much icing sugar. Also, instead of using a second jar with a finer mesh to separate the sugar and the mites, we have been dissolving the sugar in water and putting it through a coffee filter or pouring it on a white cotton rag, then examining the debris that remains. * What have others discovered? * Has anyone tried this method and also a 24-hour Apistan drop on the same hive? * What is the correlation? * How much sugar is optimal? * What is the best way to separate the the mites and the sugar? allen --- Visit my daily (mostly beekeeping) diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:06:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: FW: Varroa Test In-Reply-To: <200008222356.TAA13350@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >What we find amazing is that we have sampled about fifteen yards so far and >not found one mite. We know we have varroa. Where is it? I was thinking about the comments you had on your site about not finding any mites. Maybe you need to run a test by putting in a sticky board on a hive and then after a day or two try the new mite roll. If the board shows mites and the roll does not then you know there is a problem in the testing method used. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:05:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions >Over the past four months, I have been stung a total of 3 times. The first >went away within a few days with less redness than a mosquito bite. Three >weeks ago, I was stung on the thumb. At first, it appeared to be nothing. >The following day my thumb began to swell. By that evening my thumb had >ballooned. By the next morning, it was purple and ITCHY! I've had hundreds of people work for me over the past quarter century and never heard of anything like the following (an excerpt from my diary): "Todd, it turns out, has had a strange reaction to a bee sting he received right in the corner of his eye as he was leaving work last Friday. On the weekend, he called say that he had swelled up enough that he was unable to see straight enough to come to work Monday. Today his mother phoned to say she had to take him to the hospital this morning when she saw him after he got up. "According to her description, his face is about twice its normal size and he has started to swell in the arm and on foot. I think they will be consulting a specialist. I've never heard of a systemic reaction that had such a delayed onset. Anyone? allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:55:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Varroa Sugar Roll Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does the sugar have to be powdered as opposed to simply granulated to achieve successful mite dislodgement.? Thanks. Alan Riach Bathgate, Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 05:03:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: How many queens? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of my beekeeping colleagues has written to me describing the situation he found in one of his hives, asking for opinions. When examining a relatively modest sized colony, he found the original queen and a supersedure queen laying on the adjacent frame. Not particularly unusual, but worth noting. However, later in the same brood box he found a third laying queen, and going back through the frames to check, he found a virgin queen as well. He had assistants who witnessed this. Out of curiosity, he divided up the hive into nuclei, giving each one queen, so that he could make sure that his observations were accurate, and they were. He had found three mated queens laying simultaneously, and one virgin, all coexisting amicably. Conventional wisdom says that you will have mother and supersedure daughter laying together. Has anyone else seen anything like the above? Or got any observations/ Matthew Allan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:23:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Does the sugar have to be powdered as opposed to simply granulated to > achieve successful mite dislodgement.? Any reference I have seen to the method has required powdered sugar. The grad student who discovered the method did so as her task was to procure 1500(?) healthy mites per day for study. Prior to the powdered sugar method she was using a brush to dislodge the mites from bees. Searching for a better way she tried the powdered sugar method and serendipitously discovered that it works. Serendipity is perhaps too chancy a word. Talcum powder has long bee known to have the same effect, but powdered sugar is better received by the bees. I wrote about this a few days back, but with an improper Subject: line See: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0008B&L=bee-l&P=R931 Now, will granulated sugar work? Dunno, but I doubt it. Give it a try and let us know if you have any success. Aaron Morris: I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: How many queens? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Matt and Everyone, Once while inspecting colonies with a commercial beekeeper we found 4 laying queens in one of his colonies. Neither of us had ever seen this before sometimes two queens but not 4 but there they were. Guess that just goes to show that the bees don't read the books. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 07:08:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test In-Reply-To: <200008231126.HAA25230@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Does the sugar have to be powdered as opposed to simply granulated to > achieve successful mite dislodgement? That is a good question. I understand that the technique requires a very fine dust to work, so think granulated sugar would not be what is intended, unless it is powdered by further grinding -- as with a mortar and pestle. Given that the meanings and uses of words varies around the world and even from district to district, I wonder what the original writer meant by 'powdered sugar'. I took it to mean what we call icing sugar, and what I believe is some places called 'confectioners sugar', but maybe my assumption is incorrect. Maybe they actually powdered sugar with a hammer or grinder. Perhaps I'll write and ask. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package bees, winter loss, fondant, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping, splitting, raising queens, AFB, varroa, protein patties, moving bees, pollination experiences, daily mumblings and more... Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:19:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the Beekeeping Short Course at the Univ. of Ill. at Urbana-Champaign last month, Mr. Omar Jassim, a forth year medical student I believe, gave a lecture on bee sting reactions. He said that large local reactions can occur up to 7 days later. Anaphylactic reactions can have systemic reactions from 10 minutes to 72 hours after the stinging incidence. It is a reaction to the antigens in the body that were produced after the first incidence. This person is at risk for another occurence if stung again. Richard Ky.,USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:44:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach wrote: > > Does the sugar have to be powdered as opposed to simply granulated to > achieve successful mite dislodgement.? Apparently the mites use a sticky substance on their feet that allows them to cling to the bees. The powdered sugar coats their sticky feet causing them to loose their grip and fall off. 'Confectioners sugar' is another name for powdered sugar, at least in the US. I would not expect granulated sugar to be as effective - probably wouldn't work at all. AL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Allen and Everyone, "Powdered sugar" here in the US is a mixture of very finely ground sugar and corn starch also called confectioners sugar. An article in the June issue of the American Bee Journal reported on using finely ground sugar for varroa control in colonies. The sugar was dusted on the bees and the mites collected on sticky boards. It appears that sugar will work if it is finely ground as Allen suggested. I also suspect that corn starch which is a very fine powder and has a slippery feel between the fingers would work as well. I have also heard that less powdered sugar ( one teaspoon - 5 ml scoop) is better than more as it is easier to separate out the mites but have not yet tried the technique myself. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:59:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions In-Reply-To: <200008231322.JAA27962@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > up to 7 days later. Anaphylactic reactions can have systemic reactions from > This person is at risk for another occurence if stung again. Richard - I still know of no solid evidence that one can predict what kind of reaction one will have to a bee sting, even with prior knowledge of sting history. My son was stung a couple years ago and had a severe reaction to it with hives covering his body and swelling starting in his throat but the emergency room procedure kept it from turning into a grave situation. He had been stung prior to this episode and has been stung since, numerous times, with only a mild local reaction as one would get with a mosquito bite. We had the Epi-Pen's on hand but have never had to use them. I think we all are at risk to having a more severe reaction at any given time that no one can predict. We should take severe reactions seriously but having one or not having one is not a solid predictor of what will happen next. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:46:03 EDT Reply-To: mnasr@evbhort.uoguelph.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Organization: Environ. Biology & Horticulture Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Allen, She used what we call icing sugar. I think you can used what is called 'confectioners sugar'. The Confectionary sugar is high quality of icing sugar with very very low starch (<5%) or no starch in it. Medhat Nasr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: FW: Varroa Test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I used this on all my 18 hives just Sunday afternoon. The more you shake the more mites you see. Use #8 mesh, the other is too fine for the mites ( balled in powdered sugar ) to fall through. Last fall I tried window screen, didn't see many mites but when I got home looked with a hand lens, they were in the sugar jar. I just shake onto the next hive's metal lid. Pretty easy to see them as they wiggle and kick. A hot metal lid lets you have a measure of revenge. I think in the Nebraska Master Beekeeper class they said you would get about twice what you got with ether roll, so if you would treat when you had 5 mites on an ether roll test, now you would treat with 10 mites / 200 bees. http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Art icle2 Dave ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:50:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: FW: Varroa Test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allen, Contact Mark about this (winston@sfu.ca). He has a grad student (Shawn Devlin) who established the relationship between different methods of monitoring and how accurate they were at estimating a colony's actual mite population. Regards Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:35:18 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Using Powdered sugar to Detect Varroa Mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Marion Ellis' (Univ. of Nebraska)BeeTidings Jan. 2000 has complete details on this method of detection. Go to: http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Art icle2 Using Powdered Sugar to Detect Varroa While seeking ways to recover varroa mites from bees for laboratory assays, Paula Macedo, a University of Nebraska Graduate Student, found a new way to check colonies for varroa that is more efficient than ether roll. In addition to being more efficient, it is not necessary to kill bees to conduct the test. You will need the following: A wide mouth canning jar (quart or pint) with two-piece lid. #8 mesh hardware cloth (or any other mesh that will retain the bees while letting varroa pass through). Window screen (or any other fine mesh hardware cloth that will let powdered sugar pass through but retain varroa. Retain the metal ring that comes with the two-piece lid, and discard the center portion. Cut a circle of #8 mesh hardware cloth to fit inside the ring. Collect 200-300 bees in a wide mouth pint or quart canning jar. Add powdered sugar to the jar through the #8 mesh lid (enough to coat the bees, 1 tsp. to 1 tbsp. should be adequate). Roll jar around to distribute the sugar. Allow the jar to sit for a few minutes while you collect additional samples. Then invert the jar and shake to recover the mites. The bees will remain in the jar, and the mites and sugar will pass through to a piece of paper. The sugar will make it difficult to count the mites. You can pour the sugar and mites into another jar with a fine mesh lid. Shake again and allow the sugar to escape. Then, dump the mites on a clean sheet of paper and count them. A brief shaking will usually recover 70% of the mites. If you persist a little longer you can recover 90%. We can think of three possible reasons for the efficacy of this technique: Varroa mite legs have a sticky pad called the empodium that helps them adhere to their host. The presence of powdered sugar could make it difficult for mites to adhere to their host. Powdered sugar stimulates the bees' grooming behavior. The powdered sugar on the mite's body stimulates mites to release from feeding to groom themselves. Let us know how it works for you. It may be a problem in a windy Nebraska bee yard, but it works well in a lab. Powdered sugar applied to a colony will dislodge a few mites from their host bees, but it is not highly efficient. Furthermore, the mites will eventually recover and return to their hosts. However, when bees are isolated from nest materials, the mite recovery from exposing them to powdered sugar is impressive. In fact, if you are willing to collect the adult population of a colony in jars and subject them to powdered sugar shaking, you can lower the mite infestation comparably to a chemical treatment. Continue shaking until mites cease to fall, and then return the bees to their colony unharmed. In future studies, we will examine the efficiency of the technique in bulk bee cages. One limitation to using this technique is that it is only efficient when brood is not present. When brood is present, 70 - 80% of the mites will be in sealed brood cells. We know that the method is a safe, inexpensive, and highly efficient way to check adult bees for mites. We hope that you will find creative ways to use the technique to lower varroa mite infestations and reduce the frequency of chemical treatments. Dare we even dream of eliminating them altogether. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:52:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions In-Reply-To: <200008231125.HAA25177@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Allen: My nephew had a similar reaction from a sting on his eyelid last year. We were collecting honey supers and he was stung on the eyelid as we got out of the truck. (The bee remembered him from the week before) I removed the stinger from his eyelid and we got our load of boxes and went home. The eye was a little swollen but there was nothing unusual when he went home about two hours later. Later that night he swelled up all around the eye and was taken to the emergency ward. The doctor did not think it was an allergic reaction, just a normal swelling in an area which exaggerated the effect. He couldn't open the eye for two days afterward and had to take time off from his regular job. I find myself, that stings on my nose and ears are more painful and swell more than ones on the arms or legs. (None near the eyes) This is consistent with other injuries; a light blow near the eye will give you an impressive black eye but a similar blow on your arm will have no effect whatsoever. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 11:26:08 -0500 Reply-To: Fr-Athanasios Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fr-Athanasios Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Spiekhout" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 8:19 AM Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions >Mr. Omar Jassim, a forth year medical student I believe, gave a > lecture on bee sting reactions. He said that large local reactions >can occur up to 7 days later. This is very surprisingly correct, my grand son was helping me a month ago. He was stung in two places, we put on the stings "sting be gone" he had no swelling or itching it looked fine. However a week later all reactions of the stings showed up, the swelling, the pain, and the itching. +Fr. Athanasios ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 09:48:06 -0700 Reply-To: Wayne Turner Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wayne Turner Organization: Middle C Productions Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One day my 15 yr old daughter was stung on the cheek about 1 1/2 inches below her eye, but no swelling occurred. The following day, she suited up and caught a swarm for me while I was at work, so the sting didn't spook her from handling bees.. The next day after that, her face finally swelled up (left eye shut, unable to see, glasses wouldn't fit the bridge of her nose) and stayed that way for about a day and a half. We took her to the dr. just to get her looked at, he gave us an epi-pen for future use, but she was fine otherwise. On myself about 3 weeks ago, a sting on the forehead at the hairline swelled up during the next 2 hours and sunk down overnight to swell my face for 2-3 days. Last Sunday, more than 40 yards from my bees, while "saving" a friend from being stung, a persistent bee dive bombed my head until it got me just above the right eyebrow. I grabbed it off fairly quickly, so I probably didn't get a lot of venom. I immediately took a dose of antihistamines and took another one later that evening, and had no swelling. I still have a pock mark from the sting, so I know it did sting me. That same friend I was "saving" has been stung twice on the face around the eyes/forehead and he swelled up good both times. The antihistamines seemed to work when taken immediately. > > I've never heard of a systemic reaction that had such a delayed onset. > > Anyone? > > allen > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:11:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions In-Reply-To: <200008231125.HAA25185@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "According to her description, his face is about twice its normal size and > he has started to swell in the arm and on the foot. I think they will be > consulting a specialist. I've never heard of a systemic reaction that > had such a delayed onset. I guess the thing I did not emphasize here was that although he was stung in the corner of his *eye* there is swelling on the *foot* too. The foot and arm swelling did not start until 3 days after the normal swelling of the face. I don't know his current condition. I called his mother just now to see how he is, and she says that he is still in the hospital for observation. She is going to see him this afternoon. I'll keep everyone up-to-date on this unusual reaction when I know more. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:17:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: radiation for AFB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" One of the bee clubs in the New England states used to have a program for radiation of equipment to sterilize any potential American Foul Brood (AFB) infection. This may have been known infestations or prophylactic treatments. I don't know what club that was. I am interested in two areas of information: 1) Sources of information on the radiation requirements for sterilization against AFB. 2) Cooperative programs run for the sterilization of bee equipment against AFB. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary President (again) - Long Island Beekeepers Association web page: http://www.tianca.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:06:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wayne Turner wrote: > One day my 15 yr old daughter was stung on the cheek about 1 1/2 inches > below her eye, but no swelling occurred. ................. > The next day after that, her face finally swelled up (left eye shut, unable > to see, glasses wouldn't fit the bridge of her nose) and stayed that way for > about a day and a half. We took her to the dr. just to get her looked at, he > gave us an epi-pen for future use, but she was fine otherwise. ................ > a persistent bee dive bombed my head until it got me just above > the right eyebrow. I grabbed it off fairly quickly, so I probably didn't get > a lot of venom. I immediately took a dose of antihistamines and took another > one later that evening, ................ > > > I've never heard of a systemic reaction that had such a delayed onset. > > Anyone? > > allen I do not see any systemic reactions being described, but only local reactions. Did I miss something?? I also find it rather bizarre that an MD would give someone an Epipen for swelling after a beesting, as I thought these were reserved for allergic/anaphyllactic/systemic reactions. My belief is that many MDs or even allergists are not fully experienced in beesting allergy treatments. Many types of snakebites would necessitate a quick response because of tissue or nerve damage, but we're talking about bees here. - John ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://198.22.133.109/ http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:19:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: radiation for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > 1) Sources of information on the radiation requirements for > sterilization against AFB. > > 2) Cooperative programs run for the sterilization of bee > equipment against AFB. It's the Worchester County Beekeepers Association (Worchester, Mass). Contact Steve Dragon (can't find his email, you'll have to try white pages). The facility is the Worchester Medical College(?). ABJ ran an article on the WCBA offering as well as Cobalt 60 irradiation for AFB treatment. Details are in BEE-L archives, but I'm not sure what year. George Imirie and I had quite a go over it! Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:08:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Varroa tolerance/resistance In-Reply-To: <200008230400.AAA19287@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" from a 1993 article in Bee World "Science Roundup: the IBRA Symposium 'Living with Varroa" Honeybee colonies vary in susceptibility to varroa, holding out the hope for the breeding of colonies with greater *tolerance* of varroa. specific characters ... implicated in this reduced susceptibility... * ability to bite and groom mites from themselves and nestmates * ability to preferentially remove sealed brood infested with mites (hygienic behavior) * shorter duration of the sealed brood stage... from a 1994 article "Response of Hygienic Honey Bees to Varroa jacobsoni Mites" it is important to determine if honey bees have any natural, heritable defense mechanisms against the mite that may be readily incorporated into breeding programs... Hygienic behavior is considered the primary mechanism of *resistance* to at least two diseases of larval and pupal honey bees... Lines of hygienic and non-hygienic colonies were bred and tested for their ability to remove pupae infested with Varroa mites. In 1994, the experiments included four hygienic and three non-hygienic colonies; and in 1995, seven hygienic and four non-hygienic colonies. Further tests will determine if the variation between years was due to genetic or environmental causes. 6 years later this same author is says "despite some claims to the contrary, there are no beekeepers or researchers who have successfully bred a line of bees that is varroa resistant". A thorough reading of the literature will show that the terms varroa resistance and tolerance are used to refer to the same assortment of behaviors which honeybees use to try to rid themselves of varroa infestations. The question is not whether these behaviors are present nor what they should be called. It is whether they form heritable characteristic(s) that can be bred into bees and propagated by the distribution of queen bees. It appears that there isn't agreement on this key point. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:34:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: irradiation for foulbrood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There have been several efforts to sterlize comb using irradiation. Alberta Food and Rural Development and Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada just completed a trial evaluating the ability of high velocity electron beam irradiation to sterilize pollen and comb of chalkbrood and American foulbrood. We are still evaluating the samples and cannot yet say how well the irraditaion worked. High velocity electron irradiation does not offer the depth of sterilization offered by gamma irradiation. The facility we evaluated is in the Pacific Northwest, in Vancouver British Columbia (iotron@iotron.com). 1) Sources of information on the radiation requirements for sterilization against AFB. Shimanuki, H., E. W. Herbert, Jr., and D. A. Knox. 1984. High velocity electron beams for bee disease control. Am Bee J 124: 856¯867. Hornitzky, M. A. Commercial use of gamma radiation in the beekeeping industry. Bee World. 75: 135--142. Regards Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:45:49 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: FW: radiation for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in Hawaii we have just had a radiation sterilization plant put in using electronic x-ray beam ( no radioactive material) to kill fruit fly larva in tropical fruits for export purposes. I need information about the doses required to kill AFB spores in beekeeping woodenware. The local e-beam operators claim to have no knowledge about the level of dose required. Any help would be appreciated. We don't see very much AFB in Hawaii and when we do it would be a good application to save the woodenware. Can the Pierco frames with foundation with drawn comb be treated? Any help would be appreciated. Also could some one tell me out if honey bee ( two words) or honeybee ( one word ) is correct. Walter Patton Beekeeper - Hawaii Tourguide Hawaiian Honey House 100 % Hawaii Honey A Hawaii Beekeepers Bed and Breakfast # 1 Mukai Pl., P.O. Box 430 Papaikou, HI 96781 Ph./Fax. 1-808-964-5401 e-mail HiHoney@HawaiiHoney.Com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 19:19:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Gantt Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i keep 2 hives here north of atlanta. 1 day my 3 yr old granddaughter was sstung 5 times. #1 above eye next to bridge of nose #2 center below eye #3 center of jaw bone below cheek #4 ear lobe #5 web between ring and middle fingers all on same side of body in next 20 minutes stings swelled slightly nothing serious swelling went down after about 1 hr 5 days later the # 2, #3 & #5 turned red and swelled back up. dr said it was an allergic reaction, gave her steroid cream & said to take her to a speciallist. by that night she was fine. best i can figure part of the stinger was left under skin and got infected. no signs now after 3 weeks any info? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:26:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "W. Allen Dick" wrote: Three > >weeks ago, I was stung on the thumb. At first, it > appeared to be nothing. > >The following day my thumb began to swell. By that > evening my thumb had > >ballooned. By the next morning, it was purple and > ITCHY! > A couple of years ago I had a similar reaction. I was stung three times, including twice on the inside elbow of my arm. One of the stings hurt much more than usual, but felt fine within a few minutes and did not swell. About 8-10 hours later, I noticed it swelling and itching, till my whole forearm was quite swollen. (I hadn't been stung by my bees in awhile, but three days prior I'd been stung on the ankle by a yellowjacket, whose venom maybe was still having an effect.) I called an "ask-a-nurse" line and the nurse said I was possibly developing an allergy, and that I should watch very carefully the next time I was stung. This worried me, as two members of my immediate family have sting allergies. However, I've been stung numerous times since, some with swelling and some without, but none like this incident. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:46:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Nally Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test Has anyone tried flour in place of powdered sugar? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 22:53:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa Sugar Roll Test In-Reply-To: <200008231312.JAA27374@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Perhaps I'll write and ask. I did, and please pardon me for answering my own post, but: Paula wrote back: "I think the powdered sugar we used here should be the same confectioner's sugar or icing sugar you are talking about. At least this was the conclusion we came up with after discussing it with some people from Canada that had the same question at EAS 2000 Meeting in Maryland. We are testing other powders as well as fine granulated sugar to see if we can obtain the same efficiency but I do not have results yet. Anyhow, I will check on the size of the particle of the one we've been using. I hope I have addressed your question. Paula Macedo. and Marion wrote: "Powdered sugar and icing sugar are synonyms, at least in terms of the labeling retailers use here in the states. Both contain finely powdered sucrose with 3% cornstarch added to prevent caking. We used a Brand called G & H. We are evaluating the technique more extensively this fall and are including alternate dusts in our experiments. We hope to publish the results this winter. I hope this resolves the question -- for now at least. And -- we *did* find two mites in one yard today with this technique and we are now following Adony's suggestions in trying to calibrate this in terms of other more familiar methods. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package bees, winter loss, fondant, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping, splitting, raising queens, AFB, varroa, protein patties, moving bees, pollination experiences, daily mumblings and more... Many Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 00:18:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MIDCPRO Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suppose I wasn't really understanding the question that Allen was asking. The MD I'm sure thought that it's possible that the bee stings will build up in her system until her system finally freaks out. I just figured it was good to have the epi-pen on hand in case someone else visiting had a bad reaction. We have some friends that are deathly afraid of bees because of some perceive "allergy" to beestings that might cause the need for the epi-pen. I certainly don't credit the MD with knowing what they're doing, but they're more covering their behind, with all the litigation that goes on in the medical business... > I do not see any systemic reactions being described, but only local reactions. > Did I miss something?? > I also find it rather bizarre that an MD would give someone an Epipen for > swelling after a beesting, as I thought these were reserved for > allergic/anaphyllactic/systemic reactions. My belief is that many MDs or even > allergists are not fully experienced in beesting allergy treatments. > Many types of snakebites would necessitate a quick response because of tissue or > nerve damage, but we're talking about bees here. > - John > ----------------------------------------------------------- > John F. Edwards > Carl Hayden Bee Research Center > Tucson, Arizona 85719 > http://198.22.133.109/ > http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:30:06 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddy(ENL)" Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'd like to relate an incident that happened a couple of weeks ago to one of our Associations here in 'A.m. scutalata' country. Southerns Beekeeping Association annually holds a field day in the last week of July or 1st week of August in the "bushveld" during the flow of Aloe honey. The area is just north of the Magalisberg Mountains, 200 km north of Johannesburg and 350 meters below. It has a wonderful tropical climate, but not much rain. (550 mm per annum) This exercise is well worth the effort and it doesn't matter how many times one has been to the aloes, there is always something to learn. The pollen is exceptionally bountiful and rich in nutrition and one can obtain a good surplus of honey plus an increase in hive capacity. If one opened a strong hive, at least 4 deep frames could be retrieved from the brood box, containing only stored pollen. Many beekeepers will go into this area with 500 odd hives and walk out with 2000, provided there is no invasion of external forces. Due to the popularity of the area, you can imagine it being like a single apiary with 50 000 hives. The bees become extremely chirpy, but if handled correctly can be kept under control. Most beekeepers are not concerned about the abnormal defences behaviour as the "bushveld" is so far from any habitation. (This latter remark is a perception only) At the end of the field day, folk were packing up to leave when someone noticed some strange behaviour deep in the "bush". On investigation it was noted that a few donkeys had been tethered to a tree with a cart attached just off the dirt road. Donkey carts are a common sight in the rural areas and usually the only form of transport in the village. The tree to which the donkeys had been strung too, was home to a colony of bees. The owners of the cart had evidently been taking a drive when they were attacked by some bees along the way. They then tied the donkeys so that they wouldn't loose their wheels and ran off for cover. When the beekeepers arrived, there was no more sign of aggression from the colony as the bees had most likely decimated their working force during the frenzied stinging of the donkeys. One donkey had already circumed from the literal thousands of stings. The Chairman of the Association (Joe Hugill) had some antihistamines which he forced down the donkeys' throat while one of the other stronger beekeepers loosened the donkeys from their thongs. The conscious donkeys pranced away immediately they felt free. The donkey which had passed out was dragged out into the road well away from the tree. Joe returned to group of beekeepers and asked if anyone had adrenalin. One beekeeper did and so Joe returned to give the poor donkey some medication. It would have taken over 20 minutes for Joe to return to the spot where the donkey was left, so Joe was expecting to find vultures enjoying a meal. Instead there was nothing. The donkey had revived from the antihistamines and bolted. Hope you enjoyed that one. Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:22:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: radiation for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by basset@NEESNET.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to correct the URL for WCBA. ----------------- Original message (ID=A705E428) (23 lines) ------------------- > Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 07:15:20 -0400 > From: michael Bassett > Subject: Re: FW: radiation for AFB > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > > On Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:19:01 -0400, Aaron Morris > wrote: > > > >It's the Worchester County Beekeepers Association (Worchester, Mass). > >Contact Steve Dragon (can't find his email, you'll have to try white > >pages). > > I don't have steve dragons address but you can contact the > president of the worcester bee club at bbbric@cs.com > and they have a web page at http://members.xoom.com/worcesterbee/ > they have there old newsletters available and if I remember > correctly the give the information in the spring newsletter about > the radiation for afb. > Mike Bassett Massachusetts > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:37:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: NY Pesticide law passed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As reported on AgWeb.com Neighbors Must Be Notified of Pesticide Applications in New York New York has passed a law that requires companies applying pesticides to give at least a 48-hour warning to neighbors living within 150 feet of any spraying site. It also requires schools and day care facilities to provide parents and staff with a notice before pesticides are applied on school grounds. Notices must contain information regarding the date and location of applications, as well as the name of the product being applied. The law allows exemptions for more than 30 specific types of pesticides with a low toxicity, such as boric acid and horticultural oils, and for pesticide applications to cemeteries and spot treatments of less than nine square feet. The neighbor notification law goes into effect March 1, 2001. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:05:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry I guess I should have said "greater" risk. According to the studies cited by Mr. Omar Jassim of Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Mo., there is a correlation between past reactions and probability of future reactions. There is evidence of that a person with a previous anaphylactic reaction is at a much greater risk of having a repeated reaction. Not a 100% solid predictor but not all people with high cholesterol have a heart attack. They are just more at risk. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:26:19 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Sugar roll & other powders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Much work was done on powders about 1982 @ the Research institute Dol (czech republic) I think the person to contact would be Vladimir Vesely. The work was mainly aimed at reducing mite numbers rather than as a dection method. The powders included:- Talc, wheat flour, wood flour, flowers of sulphur, Icing sugar, powdered coltsfoot, and various mixtures of these were tried. I think the powders work in two ways with a third way possible... 1, the dry powder soaks up the moisture that helps the varroa grip (the gripping is possibly partly due to surface tension of this moisture). 2, The powder acts like ball bearings causing loss of grip due to skidding. 3, There is the possibility of delivering active substances by the powder method (hence Sulphur and Coltsfoot in the list). A search for Bee Institute Dol, vesely may throw up something interesting Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:26:00 +0100 Reply-To: joe@golberdon.prestel.co.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Hemmens Subject: Re: thymol and Apiguard Comments: To: Robert Brenchley In-Reply-To: <200008191324.JAA24452@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Robert Brenchley wrote: > Has anyone used Thymol or Apiguard as miticides? If so I'd be grateful > to hear about their experience. I have done so to a limited extent. Firstly as a part of a trial of Apilife Var (76% thymol), the results of which can still be found at - http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/2352/ This was my first attempt at html and I'm afraid that viewing the page today with a different resolution monitor shows my deficiencies. Also the email address shown for me is no longer valid. There have been a number of articles in recent years about the use of thymol including the use of thymol in a specially modified frame. My general impression with these trials is that they show thymol to be an effective acaracide but not as effective as say Apistan (pre- resistance). I believe thymol to be a useful treatment, possibly as part of an integrated treatment program, because much of the literature that I have read suggests that it is also effective against some other bee ailments, chalkbrood and nosema for example. More recently I have tried Apiguard (VITA) - thymol in a gel. My impression was that it was extremely effective and it is certainly simple to apply. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:45:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: Beekeepers to be inspected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recieved this in ag news sent to our greenhouse. Apiary Inspection Program will protect native honeybees. The rising number of non-native parasitic mite and the small hive beetle, non-native predators against which the honeybee has no natural defense, causing the decline of wild and managed bee populations. Has prompted NY. assemblyman Mageeto introduce A.10235, which creates the Apiary Inspection Program to set appropiate tolerance levels for the imported pest. This pogram will ensure that beekeepers are poperly treating ther bees for diseases and pest. To prevent the intoduction of small hive beetle, it allows the inspection of migratory beekeepers entering New York. This bill has passed both houses and awaits the Governor's signature. It also states that the state budget allocates $200,000 for Apiary Inspection Program and another $75,000 for Apiary Research as well as ( but maybe not just be related) $787,000 to Cornell Integrated Pest Management. Sounds like someone has taken Bees serious . Wish I had more info, maybe someone else has more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:22:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: West Nile discovered in central new york. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ononadoga county will begin spraying Anvil tonight from 9 till 3. On contact by phone they were sympathetic to beekeepers. On request they won't spray near apiaries and say they have pin pointed those who have voiced concern. For info on areas to be sprayed call the NewsLine at 472-2111 and enter category 6071. For the health dept. call 435-6618. Spraying in Cayuga County is uncertain as of yet but I've informed they have begun to recieve bids for spraying and it is up to us to stay alert as to their intentions , voice our concerns should the need arise. For those in Cayuga county the Health Dept. no. is 253-1560. Stay abreast of the situation as they may not give much lead time on their spraying leaving little time react. Ononadoga County seems moe intune to our concern. Anvil will kill I enquired with the Health Dept. officials. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:17:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Stings and local reactions In-Reply-To: <200008241505.LAA01702@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > According to the studies cited by Mr. Omar Jassim of Washington University > School of Medicine, St. Louis, Mo., > Richard Hi Richard - I don't want you to think I was replying to you personally about your comments, but they were directed to the info you relayed to us from what Mr. Jassim said. I have not seen anything to date that has backed this up, just broad statements from people that once one has a significant sting reaction they are at high risk of another, which, so far, has not been my experience with my son. I would be very interested in getting a hold of these studies cited by Dr. Jassim and wondered if you had more info about them. It would be interesting to see the numbers on this to know what "greater" is. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 01:25:44 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: edgar diaz Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I need a job?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 Hello to every one from argentine first of all my name is Edgar Eugenio Diaz i want go U.S.A and i need a job i have made an a bee train on the local uneversite and i have work two seasons whith my father. i will go to San francisco. on march an i can get a job i will made the oportunity to stay i hade no preferences but if can works whith bee that will be the best. i someone from the list speak spanish i will thanks response my mail -- _______________________________________________ E-mail Gratis, Buscador en Español... En Tu Página. Visita: Qdice.Com Powered by Outblaze ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:35:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: West Nile discovered in central new york. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit West Nile is here to stay and you might as well get used to it. It will be a while before it is no longer a sensation and people once again learn to empty out tin cans and old tires and to keep drainage basins and ponds healthy and populated with fish. Right now it is an opportunity for the politicians to make an appearance with helicopters and spray rigs as they vie for their pictures on the six O'clock news. Little do they know that they are poisoning the insects which eat mosquitos along with the mosquito. New York City is a dirty lazy place that has fought recycling, proper sewage treatment and rat control as too expensive to do and mosquito control will be no different. Education will be the solution and it has to begin in our own back yards. Empty out the old buckets and tires in your yard and encourage your neighbors to do the same. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:41:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: stings and local reactions Several years ago, Henry Barton, our provincial bee inspector, was inspecting an especially mean hive when a sting on the back of the hand made him pass out. He figured the stinger must have hit a nerve and caused an anaphylactic shock. He has never had such a reaction before, or since. The beekeeper who was helping Henry, dragged him into the truck and got down the road underneath a shady tree where Henry eventully revived. In telling about this incident at the next bee convention, the beekeeper said he noticed that when Henry collapsed he passed a lot of wind. He concluded "I thought Barton was partin' but he was only fartin'." Henry is no longer with us but he always had a great sense of humour, and I don't think he would mind me telling this story. Ted Hancock ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:13:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: How many queens? In-Reply-To: <200008231126.HAA25264@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200008231126.HAA25264@listserv.albany.edu>, MattAllan@AOL.COM writes >Conventional wisdom says that you will have mother and supersedure daughter >laying together. Has anyone else seen anything like the above? Or got any >observations/ Beowulf Cooper refers to sisters being tolerant of each other as well as ma and daughter. Again it seems to be a useful survival trait - insurance policy. This was in A.m.m. in marginal climates for bees such as the UK. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:55:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: albert cannon Subject: hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I make mine out of 2 x 2 (or what ever is nearest). two about 5 feet = long connected with battens at about 12 inches. these are long enough to = take two hves with some room left over in the middle for the odd nuc if = needed or room to put my box of tricks. this is then stood on some = building blocks . the stand can then be adjusted for height to suit the = beekeeper. its neat without being gaudy. take care and stay lucky Albert Cannon North Devon. uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 22:32:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: DNBrown Subject: Re: Radiation for AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "One of the bee clubs in the New England states used to have a program for radiation of equipment"...That would be the Worcester County Beekeepers Association. We use and Isomedix facility to irradiate to 2 megarads. The goal is to steilize known infected equipment, supers, empty comb, hive tools, suits, and other stuff that may be infected. The cost runs about US $8 per box, the box is big enough to hold a deep, but the cost depends on how many boxes we run. There are some journal papers on the subject but I don't have them with me. I think I have put them up on Bee-L before, so maybe an archive search would work. Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 03:02:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doc Bullard Subject: VARROA MITE SUGAR TEST Equipment: Pint jar with ring. 8th inch hardware cloth insert in ring instead of lid. 100 honeybees. Level tablespoonful of confectionary sugar (powdered sugar). Shallow container (white Saucer, works well) with water, if desired. Collect approximately 100 honeybees and place in jar, affix screen lid. Place powdered sugar on screen and rub it in, roll jar to coat bees with powdered sugar, set aside for 5 minutes. Shake sugar with any dislodged mites onto a white surface for counting. Better yet, shake into the shallow container of water. The sugar will dissolve, and the dislodged mites will be floating on the surface of the water for ease of counting. Release bees for return to there home. This method has proven most effective, is easy to use and does not kill bees. I never liked the idea of killing bees. Doc ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 08:07:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Sugar roll test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I'm trying this test today, but surely the laws of chance are at play here? If you put strips in, or smoke or fume, thousands of bees are affected. If you pick up the wrong jarful of bees there may be a wrong conclusion? John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:47:56 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Bee Pictures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Norwegian publishers Cappelen has published on the net a simple but comprehensive FREE encyclopedia: http://www.caplex.net/ A short article about bees includes two pictures that I have made available, out of scientific interest(!?), here: http://auto.stud.iet.hist.no/amor/honeybee.jpg http://auto.stud.iet.hist.no/amor/bee.jpg The first picture looks to me to be some sort of hoverfly, not a bee at all. Can anyone confirm this and perhaps identify the insect more precisely? The second picture is an artwork of something - what? Any ideas? cheers Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteammanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7004 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:30:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Sugar roll test In-Reply-To: <200008250828.EAA25576@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm trying this test today, but surely the laws of chance are at play here? Of course they are. But the understanding of statistics helps us to use a small sample to examine the entire population. As long as you get a good sized sample of bees you should get a good representation of the population (I think you need to have a sample size of at least 40, but more is better). For example when a blood test is done a small sample is used to count cells and that number is used to judge the whole. I would guess that there is some small bias as brood chamber comb will have more nurse bees than field bees, but for finding mites that could be better. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 23:08:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thom Bradley Subject: assistance needed in Ohio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received this email today. If someone local could assist it would help. I edited the phone number because leaving the entire thing would be inappropriate. Ther is enough to verify if a local wanted to verify. Dear Tom, I have a nest of honey bees in my overhang next to my chimeny that I need to get out of their. My husband and I are adding on to our house and the bees must go. I really don,t want to kill them off but we really don,t know what to do. We live in Sardinia, Ohio a suburb of Cincinnati. If you know of any body in that area that can be of some help please call us back at 937-444-xxx0. My name is Gail Tucker. Thank you. This is the email address they left. TT6095@aol.com Thanks, Thom Bradley Thom's Honeybees Chesapeake, VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 03:02:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Sugar roll test In-Reply-To: <200008250828.EAA25573@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm trying this test today, but surely the laws of chance are at play here? > If you put strips in, or smoke or fume, thousands of bees are affected. If > you pick up the wrong jarful of bees there may be a wrong conclusion? We've covered a lot of these matters in quite a few posts over the last year or two, but I think it might be helpful to re-cap here: The ether roll and the sugar shake are quick-and-dirty tests that can give a ballpark idea of the level of a known infestation, and an idea if treatment should be imminent. They can be effective where varroa is known to exist in fairly high numbers, but are not nearly as sensitive as using a sticky board with Apistan for 24 hours or formic for 48. Where mites are not known to exist at all, and only a few hives are being checked, the ether roll and the sugar roll are relatively insensitive, since only 100 adult bees are sampled from a hive. I am uncertain how either compares with the alcohol wash (which uses 300 bees/hive). Of course larger samples can be done with sugar, and in our operation, we use about 1/4 of the quart mason jar full rather than 100 bees. As an idea of how insensitive it can be, we have tested 15 yards with four samples per yard and only found two mites. Both were from one yard. We have not treated this year. I'm sure if we had done the same hives with either mite drop test, we would have found much more than 2 mites. However, we would never have done the tests on so many hives because they involve two trips and applying acaricides. We still have supers on. We're just quickly looking for any sign of heavy infestation in case emergency measures are indicated. Any such test, including the mite drops, only measures mites that are on adult bees, Consideration must be made for the season and the amount of brood present to get a true idea the actual mite load in a colony. In fall and winter, the tests are much more sensitive, since a much larger percentage of the mites present in the hive are on the adults compared to brood. Also, check out http://www.rossrounds.com/HoneyBee/Formic/ allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package bees, winter loss, fondant, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping, splitting, raising queens, AFB, varroa, protein patties, moving bees, pollination experiences, daily mumblings and more... Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:29:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: assistance needed in Ohio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in Orlando, Florida and in this area we used the County Agriculture Agent and the Police Departs for referral of wild hive removals. This is the quickest response group. If they are in the chimney one would need to get the wax out as it would be a fire hazard. They need to be treated before you put them in the area of other hives. Michael Housel Research for beekeeping without chemicals to last naturally pure forever. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:11:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Sugar roll test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > If you pick up the wrong jarful of bees there may be a wrong conclusion? True. It is important to collect the bees from within the brood chamber where chances are highest that you will choose young bees/nurse bees most likely to harbor mites. The goal is not to get an exact count of mites in the colony, rather an indication of the degree of mites' presence. Aaron Morris - still thinking math rules! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:37:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Sugar roll test In-Reply-To: <200008251513.LAA01540@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The goal is not to get an exact count of mites in > the colony, rather an indication of the degree of mites' presence. > > Aaron Morris - still thinking math rules! That's the truth. I've been studying statistics lately and what the math teaches is this: 1.) Unless you sample 100% of the bees and brood in the hive(s) or unless the incidence of what you are looking for is very high, there is a significant chance that conclusions you make from your sample may be very wrong. I.e.. If you have lots of mites, a small sample is going to tell you much more, with greater certainty, than if you have very few mites or only one mite in the hive(s). 2.) Increasing the sample size a little makes a big difference in certainty of results. That is the problem with detecting and controlling the mite when it enters a new country as it is now in New Zealand. Because the incidence is so low and unevenly distributed in most hives at the beginning, sampling techniques have a high degree of uncertainty compared to places where levels are higher and more evenly distributed. Unfortunately their goal in NZ is to have 100% certainty of 0% infestation. That is simply mathematically impossible, so I predict a high certainty of an (expensive) failure. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Package bees, winter loss, fondant, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping, splitting, raising queens, AFB, varroa, protein patties, moving bees, pollination experiences, daily mumblings and more... Thousands served... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:34:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Honey container needed for school fundraiser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a Wildcat container for selling honey for a school fundraising program. Need help in location or where such a container can be bought or made. I am not wanting to use just a label as the school has requested a Wildcat container. Michael Housel Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:48:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: honeystick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where can I send a SMALL amount of honey (60#) to be made into honeysticks? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:19:26 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Sugar roll test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > 2.) Increasing the sample size a little makes a big > difference in certainty of > results. > > That is the problem with detecting and controlling the mite > when it enters a new > country as it is now in New Zealand. > > Because the incidence is so low and unevenly distributed in > most hives at the > beginning, sampling techniques have a high degree of > uncertainty compared to > places where levels are higher and more evenly distributed. > > Unfortunately their goal in NZ is to have 100% certainty of > 0% infestation. > That is simply mathematically impossible, so I predict a high > certainty of an > (expensive) failure. In the middle of July, the decision by the NZ Government was made to develop a control programme for varroa, rather than attempt eradication. While some beekeepers were disappointed that no attempt to eradicate was undertaken, others were pleased with the decision as it ensured at least some government assistance in developing the control programme, etc. Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 21:50:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: New Noxious Weed Web Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For beekeepers wishing to better identify and predict changing forage patterns in their areas, or even just to learn more about what is already there, check out this new noxious weed web site from our USDA ARS friends at the University of Montana. http://invader.dbs.umt.edu/Noxious_Weeds >From the ARS press release: "For the first time, land managers can compare noxious weed lists from the lower 48 United States and six Canadian provinces by logging on to a new section of the University of Montana's "Invaders" website." "Researchers at the ARS Northern Plains Agricultural Research Laboratory in Sidney, Mont., compiled the new section containing official federal, state and provincial noxious weed lists. The new section also includes a national ranking of weeds based on the number of states where they are designated noxious." "This tool will help decision makers prioritize control and research efforts at the local and national levels. In addition, they can use the system to predict potential future problems by examining lists from neighboring states or regions. Since it takes 10 to 20 years to discover and introduce new biological control agents, significant money and effort could be saved by managing invasive weeds while infestations are still small." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:00:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Spotted Knapweed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also from the previously mentioned ARS press release, something called spotted knapweed (Centaurea maculosa or Centaurea biebersteinii) is expanding incredibly fast in the the western US and Canada (see below). Is anybody aware if this is a plant that bees forage on? >From the press release: "The ARS researchers' next step is to look at weed distributions and how alien weeds have spread over time. "For example, spotted knapweed first entered the Pacific Northwest around 1893. The weed began to spread more rapidly in the 1950s, but distribution exploded from 60 counties in 1985 to at least 175 counties today. The researchers hope to identify reasons for such expansions, as well as trends that can help identify which alien plants pose the most risk for future expansion." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Man created Varroa problem Hello All, As i said in a previous post the large cell (man created)foundation is the cause of Varroa Jacobsoni to switch host from Apis Cerana to A. Melifera. In 1985 "Encylopedia of Beekeeping" was printed and is edited by Roger Morse and Ted Hooper. The book convenced me in 1985 of the source of the problem. Very little was known about Varroa then and all that was was put in the book including a map on page 396 of worldwide varroa distribution. I will quote from page 397 of the book and then add my comments. quote: Varroa Jacobsoni was originally limited to,and EVOLVED on,an Asian species of honey bee,Apis cerana. The damage to this species is apparently not serious,and REPRODUCTION IS limited to the drone brood cells. comment: I asked why not the worker cells? I found thru further research that the cell size was the reason (smaller)and when the colony was without drone brood the varroa reduced exactly like when we treat with chemicals. Quote: The desire to utilize the greater honey production capacity of the European honey bee prompted beekeepers to bring A. Mellifera to tropical Asia. These bees became closely associated with A.cerana through robbing and through direct INTERFERENCE by man,and as a result Asian bee mites,including Varroa INFESTED A. mellifera. comment:The large(man made)cell size 5.2mm-5.7mm must have looked like a smorgasboard to varroa! They could reproduce year around in the worker cells instead of a reduction as mother nature intended in the drone broodless period. quote:Since the early 1950's men have unwittingly moved Varroa-infested honey bees from Asia to most of Europe,South America and northern Africa. This has had serious consequences for beekeeping,as many HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of colonies have been destroyed. Comment: Does not the above prove the case for getting our hives on the 4.9mm foundation. We can't undo our mistakes but we can learn from them. The solution to varroa involves understanding how Varroa switched hosts in the first place. Dee Lusby believes 4.9mm is small enough. I personally believe a. cerana cell size is the answer. I agree that honey is hard to extract from the small cell size but millions of a. cerana hive produce large amounts of honey in China. For the bee-l archives i will date this post 8-27-2000. In 1985 the book made the following statement about varroa which now we know as inaccurate. quote: The reproductive rate is low,so that 3-5 years may pass from the time of an initial low level infestation until the mites significantly weaken the bee colony. comment: I blame the above statement with causing the biggest amount of damage to U.S. beekeeping. Many beekeepers underestimated varroa and paid the price dearly with operations which had been started in the 1800's. The above is in response to the direct emails asking how i became so sure cell size was the problem and the solution. I rest my case! Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 07:37:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Man created Varroa problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob Harrison, campaigning for smaller cell size quotes from "Encylopedia of Beekeeping", written and edited by Roger Morse and Ted Hooper: > Varroa Jacobsoni was originally limited to,and EVOLVED > on,an Asian species of honey bee,Apis cerana. The damage to this species > is apparently not serious,and REPRODUCTION IS limited to the drone brood cells. The he writes: > I found thru > further research that the cell size was the reason (smaller) and when the > colony was without drone brood the varroa reduced exactly like when we treat > with chemicals. And concludes as proven "the case for getting our hives on the 4.9mm foundation." First off, little was known about Varroa jacobsoni in 1985 when "Encylopedia of Beekeeping" was published. Second, writing that "further research" showed that the cell size was the reason for varroa reproducing in worker cells without giving a source for the further research is ludicrous! Using outdated and unnamed sources Bob's conclusion as presented amounts to smaller cells is the proven answer because he says so. As presented, it doesn't stand up. Aaron Morris - thinking because I say so. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:21:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Spotted Knapweed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John asks "Also from the previously mentioned ARS press release, something called spotted knapweed (Centaurea maculosa or Centaurea biebersteinii) is expanding incredibly fast in the western US and Canada (see below). Is anybody aware if this is a plant that bees forage on?" I believe this is a.k.a. Yellow Star Thistle. It is a terrible weed because virtually no livestock or wild animals will eat it and it crowds out natural grasses. It is a marvelous honey plant, blooming from mid-July to mid-August and producing a very light honey that makes beautiful combs. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:18:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gerald L Barbor Subject: Re: honeystick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fisher Honey Company Lewistown, PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:30:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Why are my bees making queen cells? In-Reply-To: <200008281118.HAA07542@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have one hive that was installed this spring. The bees have already swarmed once and are now building many queen cells, some on the side of the frame and some on the bottom. Why are they doing this? They have room. They have an empty honey super but seem to refuse to enter it. BTW - My hive is near a high-tension power line. Could this have any effect on the bees? Ibrahim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 06:38:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Spotted Knapweed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Spoted napweed is an important honey plant here in Michigan, where most people call it "Star Thistle" I have about 18 medium supers of this honey on my hives right now- and will be extracting soon. It is my biggest crop most summers. I try to time my hives growth to take advantage of this flow, since I can sell all I am able to harvest. It is a very light, mildly flavored honey that is the most popular one I harvest. It has a very delicate flavor that most people seem to like- it compliments tea well without overpowering other flavors, and is great for cooking too. It is an introduced species,but has spread widely over some areas of Michigan. You will see acres of it mixed in the roadsoide weeds along the highways. In July, the hillsides in Oakland county are covered with a veil of purplish blue. It seems to prefer rocky sandy soils, and grows readily where the soil has been disturbed by roadwork, and on fallow fields. I do not know of this plant causing problems for farmers or people with animals- It actually seems to prefer "Waste" areas. In areas sewn with clover or other plants, it seems to dissapear. If any of you know differently, I would like to hear the other side of this story. I am no expert... I was dissapointed to find out last spring that an insect has been introduced to control this "weed". I will miss the wonderfull honey if the introduction is sucessful. Ellen Anglin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Man created Varroa problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > > Bob Harrison, campaigning for smaller cell size quotes from "Encylopedia of > Beekeeping", written and edited by Roger Morse and Ted Hooper: > > > Varroa Jacobsoni was originally limited to,and EVOLVED > > on,an Asian species of honey bee,Apis cerana. The damage to this species > > is apparently not serious,and REPRODUCTION IS limited to the drone brood > cells. comment: I assume you agree with this provable fact? > > The he writes: > > > I found thru > > further research that the cell size was the reason (smaller) and when the > > colony was without drone brood the varroa reduced exactly like when we > treat > > with chemicals. comment: I assume you agree with these provable facts? > > And concludes as proven "the case for getting our hives on the 4.9mm > foundation." Hello Aaron and other bee-l readers, Having delt with much ridicule from my fellow beekeepers and the scientific community since 1985 i accept your criticism of my theory. At least now i can use Dee & Ed Lusbys work to support my conclusions. I hope we can agree to disagree. I also thank Dadant for not thinking my theory ludicrous in 1985. The varroa problem did not exist in the U.S. in 1985 so Dadant didn't see the need to get bees on the correct size foundation. I hope to approach Dadant again on my next trip to try to push for production of the small cell foundation. > > First off, little was known about Varroa jacobsoni in 1985 when "Encylopedia > of Beekeeping" was published. Correct! Having read most of the published work on varroa out i believe all but the slow reproduction and how long it takes to kill a colony are correct today. Most U.S. librarys carry the book so maybe one of our researchers will take a look at page 396-398 and comment. 638.1 IL9 Second, writing that "further research" > showed that the cell size was the reason for varroa reproducing in worker > cells without giving a source for the further research is ludicrous! Many books such as "the varroa handbook" state the fact that varroa can't reproduce in the small cell size of a. cerana worker brood and as many as ten female varroa mites can reproduce in one cell of the 5.2mm-5.7mm cell size. > > Using outdated and unnamed sources Bob's conclusion as presented amounts to > smaller cells is the proven answer because he says so. comment: Sadly there has not been new material to quote from. Only research papers from researchers from time to time and most of those are based in theory. Is our current varroa research going the the right or wrong direction? Are we winning the war against varroa? Will a chemical be found which will kill varroa and not the bee AND not contaminate wax and honey? As presented, it > doesn't stand up. The purpose of the post was to answer why i started to think the key to varroa control was in the cell size. I my opinion all varroa research which has had limited success should be put on a back burner and new avenues should be pursued. Varroa is winning the war and the use of chemicals both legal and illegal could destroy the beekeeping industry through contamination of wax and honey. Please look at the map of the known distribution of Varroa jacobsoni in 1985 on page 396 and look at the same map today and tell me if the best scientific minds of today have the solution! I DON'T THINK SO! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:48:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ed Costanza Subject: Re: honeystick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can call Nature's Kick at 1-503-581-5803. Good luck, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:49:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Why are my bees making queen cells? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >I have one hive that was installed this spring. The bees have already >swarmed once and are now building many queen cells, some on the side of the >frame and some on the bottom. Why are they doing this? They have room. They >have an empty honey super but seem to refuse to enter it. Swarming is the natural reproductive method for the honey bee. While breeders have worked for a long time to reduce the tendency to swarm it is still something that bees like to do. If your bees swarmed already, and you did not requeen afterwards your stock is of totaly unknown breeding as the old queen left with the swarm and the new queen mated with drones at random. Do the bees have room in the brood chamber? The nest is a round (ball shaped) area inside the hive. If the brood chamber is full of honey, pollen and brood then the queen will lay in the cup cells provided by the workers. If the honey super has only foundation then the bees will require a strong nectar flow to draw it out into comb. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:53:01 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ed Costanza Subject: Re: honeystick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to mention that Nature's Kick manufacturers stix for almost every other wholesaler and retailer around. They are the only ones I know who manufacture honey stix and all other companies such as Glorybee and Fisher send their honey to them to be made into stixs. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 10:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Gerald L. Barbor" Subject: Re: honeystick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unless things ahve changes in recent years, Fisher has their own machinery for manufacture of HoneyStix. Jerry in Pa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:11:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Hive stands Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Can anyone tell me where I might buy hive stands, either portable or >I'd recommend putting a couple of landscaping timbers propped up on cinder >blocks ... Use 3 sets of blocks to prevent sagging (one at each end and >one in the middle). Been there, done that, and FWIW here are my thoughts on eight foot hive stands, and I have about 250: -landscaping timbers are heavy, overkill and do not require that level of preservative if they are on blocks -three sets of blocks are heavy, overkill and difficult to level -it is possible to put five hives on an eight foot stand and still have a couple of inches between them which is enough to keep ants from nesting between the hives and to enable the easy working of them (much easier than pallet arrangement) -it is a waste of wood not to use lumber on its edge, but this requires the two rails or joists to be nailed together with three crosspieces so they remain on edge Initially I made hive stands out of two 2 X 4 on edge with only two blocks for a base (one at each end). So the hive stands could only be fifteen inches wide so they could fit on a block. The width was not a problem, and allowed lots of space for a cleat on each side of the stand on the bottom boards (so they can be slid together on the hive stand for moving and strapped as a unit). But the two blocks WAS a problem. Sit a weight of up to a ton on a tall skinny line on two blocks and you had better be pretty fussy about getting those blocks level, and hope they stay level after a heavy rain. I had several tip overs. Now I use two pieces of treated 4 X 4 bolted to the stand for feet. They can only be twenty two inches long, because when we load the trucks the stands are pushed right up to the stand in front, but that is a six inch increase over the base length of a cement block, which is enough for stability when the hives are still low in the blueberry fields. This year when the hives stands were moved to summer yards I put each foot on another 4 X 4 which was 32 inches long (three from an eight foot length). This gave great stability and extra height which made it easier to get the lifter in and out. I did not have a single tip over this year. We no longer worry about levelling the stands, we just plunk the extra wood pieces under the feet as we are lowering them. But to accomodate the new method the bottom boards now all have drains at both back corners in case the hives have a lean back. I no longer use 2 X 4, after a year or two they sag. But two 2 X 6 on edge is plenty strong enough to lift a ton (five hives in five full deeps) and barely creaks. However, the lifter does NOT lift at the ends, nor are the feet at the ends. If you place the feet one quarter of the way in from each end, that nearly maximizes the strenth of the wood. The lifter prongs are just inside that, and that is the actual point of maximum strenth. However, you have to remember when loading the stand or unloading that you are cantilevered out past the foot with the outside hives, and so you cannot leave or place just one on edge of the stand without a counterweight. But because they slide on the stand so easily this is really no problem to deal with as long as you remember. The disadvantage of wood feet is that they can deteriorate, but having them attached to the stand was a wonderful plus this season, as lifting hundreds of cement blocks around at night was a real chore, as was levelling them. Oh, and as regards "having a place to put things between the hives", I just use the hives themselves. Put stuff on the cover of one of the hives. I put boxes on a low hive frequently. My covers (migratory style) have strips lenthwise on the top edges which make a great box rest. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:00:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: New Noxious Weed Web Site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Mitchell wrote: >For beekeepers wishing to better identify and predict changing forage >patterns in their areas, or even just to learn more about what is already >there, check out this new noxious weed web site from our USDA ARS friends at >the University of Montana. > >http://invader.dbs.umt.edu/Noxious_Weeds John is correct. That web site contains information about the many species of Centaurea (star thistle and relatives). From a personal point of view, yellow star thistle, a late summer/fall bloomer, produces the best honey I have ever tasted. In our area tocalote blooms earlier. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, * we must accept the fact and abandon the theory, even when * the theory is supported by great names and generally accepted." * * --- Claude Bernard, 1865 ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:02:33 -0400 Reply-To: beemann@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: late swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I'm having a small problem with swarms right now. Never had late season swarms before. One got away on me, others had cells last week but reversed the boxes and split the brood. The supers are still on. Checked today and no problem. I've had a dearth here for the last 2 weeks but the golden rod is coming out now. Anyone else having late swarms? I'm in Eastern Ontario and it's been a wet summer. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:01:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: late swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I removed a swarm/colony from underneath a gable off of someone's master bedroom here in Eastern MA last week. It had constructed a 9 inch by 6 inch comb (exposed, an external colony, not behind the wall). It had only been there a very short time. The queen was mated and laying. The comb was completely hidden beneath the cluster of bees, resulting in some surprises when I did my usual manipulations to catch a swarm (swarm bees = gentle, colony bees = defend home to the death). Glad I was wearing my bee suit, and my bee vac investment paid off. It's been a wet summer here too. In the archives, one person implied a connection between a warm September and late swarms. However, it's been a cooler than usual summer here. Anybody out there with the long view (or data) who is willing to assert (or refute) a correlation between weather, temperature and late swarms that would allow us to knowledgably predict the climate patterns that lead to more late swarms? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Man created Varroa problem Comments: To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com In-Reply-To: <200008281350.JAA11933@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > varroa control was in the cell size. I my opinion all varroa research > which has had limited success should be put on a back burner and new > avenues should be pursued. Varroa is winning the war and the use of > chemicals both legal and illegal could destroy the beekeeping industry > through contamination of wax and honey. Please look at the map of the > known distribution of Varroa jacobsoni in 1985 on page 396 and look at > the same map today and tell me if the best scientific minds of today > have the solution! I DON'T THINK SO! Hi Bob - While we are not in complete unison in our thinking on parts of this matter, I feel you are right on target with your last statement. I will go one step further and point out that the use of chemicals today IS destroying the beekeeping industry as report upon report is bearing this out. I'm not a radical purist that thinks there is no place for drugs and chemicals in our daily life but I do get frustrated with our industry when something so basic and simple as a different cell size, that seemingly allows the bees to live with and keep in check the mites that attack it, as far as I know, is not currently being studied by our good scientists even though it is being used by many already with very good results and there are no published papers out there that I've seen that have spoken negatively of smaller cells and it's affect on mites. I appreciate John Edward's reply to my post a few days ago on this subject and I told him I do appreciate his involvement here on the list. I wish there were more like him. I wrote: "Is the idea so off base that it's ludicrous?" I still have never been told or given a reason by anyone with knowledge in this area that would cause me to question it (no longer a theory as it is being done successfully in the field). Bob, I'm afraid Dadant or any other major foundation supplier won't be turning out the smaller size foundation for you. They won't even do it for the USDA. Until this whole issue is proven one way or another in the lab or enough beekeepers take it upon themselves to make their own and a shift begins to grow, it will stay the same. As time goes by, the physical proof will come to light and what will matter in the end is whether one still has live bees to keep and make a living from them. It's not looking too good with our chemical option is it. I wonder at times if it isn't comparable to what happened years ago in the building industry with the advent of PVC plumbing. When efforts were first made to get PVC accepted in the code book for commercial and residential use, it was fought by the union to keep it out. This is only natural when ones "corner on the market", (the ability to work with and install cast iron) is threatened by a product that is simple to work with and allows installation at a much faster rate. Many years ago another man invented a machine that could lay bricks at an astonishing rate but it never saw the light of day thanks to those who's lively hood was laying bricks by hand. Still searching for answers. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:39:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Cell Size In-Reply-To: <200008260401.AAA18260@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings! I am searching for some more information on cell size and its effect on varroa infestation. There seems to be a lot of info on the one side of the issue and not much on the other (ie., that it won't work). Does anyone have any idea where I can find both sides of the issue presented methodically without bias? Peter Borst plb6@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 21:54:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Wax press In-Reply-To: <200008211050.GAA26830@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 There is a perfectly good wax press commercially made by Limousin Apiculture in France, and exported worldwide. It is claimed to recover 99.5% of the honey, leaving only near dry wax cakes and sends the honey back to the extractor sump. They also have a video of their setup showing it in operation. I've just bought one but have not used it yet so cannot yet confirm its performance. It seems to be an adaptation of a commercial grape press for the wine industry. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:07:05 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Man created Varroa problem In-Reply-To: <200008281137.HAA07926@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From the viewpoint of the latest nation invaded by varroa, the discussion on this list is interesting but patchy. May I suggest that the leading expert is Dennis Anderson PhD (an Australian who worked for our govt several years but then went back home)? As far as I can see he is the leading formal publisher on, and named, the species which has now invaded us: _Varroa destructor_ . Our officials have been sluggish to respond to the emergency, and have now proposed a control programme centred on Apistan® which some of us refuse to put into our hives. We want a much more broadminded R&D programme including several other chemical methods (various methods of administering thymol, formic acid, etc). The idea of smaller-distance foundation is tantalising. I just wish I could readily see more evidence on its efficacy. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:36:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Man created Varroa problem In-Reply-To: <200008281204.IAA08245@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200008281204.IAA08245@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >Using outdated and unnamed sources Bob's conclusion as presented amounts to >smaller cells is the proven answer because he says so. As presented, it >doesn't stand up. > >Aaron Morris - thinking because I say so. I agree fully with you here Aaron. There is a great deal of attention given to this issue at the moment but there is a serious lack of real science in the current arguments and a lack of both blind testing and peer group review. The range of authors producing information is very narrow and when looking at the origin of documents we find many common co-authors and references back to previous writings of other members the same small group as confirmation. There is some very peculiar (to my mind) reasoning going on which I unable to grasp. I reckon we need some real serious science done on this, and an end to emotive language. I was once rebuked (correctly) by Allen Dick for using 'motherhood statements' (statements which strike a favourable chord with the audience but have insufficient substance behind them), and I find this whole debate riddled with deliberately emotive terms and a plethora of generic statements about 'natural' beekeeping. This may be the answer we have all been waiting for, or it may just be a coincidence, with further catastrophy waiting just around the corner. I hope it is the answer, for several related reasons, but I am one of these middle of the road kind of people who will go with a radical departure from our normal ways only after it has conclusively been demonstrated to me that it WILL work for me. At the moment it seems to have a lot of people flocking to it similar to the mineral oil issue of a couple of years back (what did ever happen to Elroy by the way, with his total faith in MO). It is currently PC to admire unconditionally any attempt to find 'natural' remedies. To ask direct questions aimed at a percieved weakness in the argument is often taken badly as if it was destructive criticism, when in fact it is usually a genuine request for clarification of either method or reasoning. (This is an INFORMED DISCUSSION forum after all, not a soap box.) Recently on the Irish list questions being asked about the genetic claims were met not with clear answers but more or less a rebuke for questioning the theory and questions asked back of the questioner about their genetic reasoning. This was not the point. The whole issue here is if the Lusby ideas are correct. These other correspondents are not making claims so their depth of knowledge of genetics is largely irrelevant. I have had several e-mails and read several postings about this issue which claim it is a great success. Unfortunately other postings undermine this impression with (apparently) hard facts. If I still had 50% of my hives remaining empty 10 years into a control regime I would regard the regime as an unmitigated disaster, not a success, and would long since be out of business and my staff looking for work. I have just acquired a number of queens from a breeder who claims (apparently audited) to have used no treatment for 10 years and loses only 10 to 15% of his colonies each year, despite having had varroa for over 20 years. He does not need to use any resized cells. I think I will give them a good try before I spend huge amounts of money on new combs, because my belief (just a gut feel) is that the bee breeders will have the right result much quicker than altering the genetic selection in every managed A.m. colony in the world. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:14:25 -0500 Reply-To: boby@lakecountry.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Young Subject: Re: Spotted Knapweed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope this "introduced" insect has been thoroughly tested. So many of these things end up having an appetite for "good" plants after what the were introduced to control are eradicated. Nature is best left to resolve things by itself. Bob Young Lindale,TX ---------- > > I was dissapointed to find out last spring that an > insect has been introduced to control this "weed". I > will miss the wonderfull honey if the introduction is > sucessful. > > Ellen Anglin