From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:34 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05153 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00227 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00227@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:29 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0010A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 146704 Lines: 3096 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 19:20:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ragging on martha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My name is Norman Cote and I have been Martha Stewarts beekeeper for the past six years. With her schedule you would need to have help too. Get off her back. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 11:06:33 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: ragging on martha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beekeeperc@AOL.COM wrote: > > My name is Norman Cote and I have been Martha Stewarts beekeeper for the past > six years. With her schedule you would need to have help too. Get off her > back. Hello Norm, I did the original post as i found very interesting Martha would take a interest in beekeeping. Henry Fonda also expressed a interest in beekeeping. Peter Fonda did Ulee's Gold out of respect for his father and beekeeping. Being raised in rural florida i relate to Ulee's Gold and only wish some of the strong language could have been left out so Ulee's Gold could have been shown on tv. The hard,hot and back breaking work shown in Ulee's Gold is the sad truth of a sideline to large operation. In our local beekeeping assn. actually owning a hive of bees is not even required only a interest in beekeeping. Beekeeping needs all the friends beekeeping can muster. I admire you Norman for taking a stand alongside Martha and i will stand with you. Every new beekeeper needs a mentor. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 07:43:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Malcolm (Tom) Sanford" Subject: Employment sought Comments: To: cuttsl@doacs.state.fl.us Comments: cc: LGalle1@aol.com In-Reply-To: <01JURJ5Y5WM490OJOF@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Mr. Radus, I am forwarding this to the bee-l list in the hope someone can respond to your request. I know of no one at present in need of workers. Tom Sanford Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 09:32:16 -0400 (EDT) From: LGalle1@aol.com Subject: anghel radus To: MTS@GNV.IFAS.UFL.EDU X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 14 Original-recipient: rfc822;MTS@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Dear Sir Professor, You are my ultimate hope. My mame is Anghel Radus.I am from Romania and I speake English not very well but I'm a beekeeper.I have in Romania 33 beehives. I came in USA on September,12-th,2000 and I can stay hear to date March,11-th 2001.I have not working permit buty I want to remain in USA. I tryed to find a job lije beekeeper by AOL or INTERNET but all the time the com- puter tould me: "sorry,may be next time". Now I live in Virginia,in a friend's house and i work for my existence in a pastry like unskilled worker. If you know a job like beekeeper in the large farms from Florida or anywhere in USA,please help me ! My e-mail :LGalle1@aol.com. Please,answer me faster is possible because I must to find my way hear but I cant do it without the people's help. God bless you ! ==================================================== Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford, Extension Apiculturist University of Florida E-mail: mts@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu Publisher of the APIS newsletter: http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis.htm Author of "Beekeeping in the Digital Age": http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/digital/ ----------------------------------------------------- In Ecuador until 4 October 2000 Apt. 10A, Edif. Ivsemon Park Belgica #392 y Shyris, Quito Tel. 593-2-250-648 Or Comision Fulbright Almagro #25-41 y Colon, Quito P.O. Box 17-07-9081 Tel. 593-2-222-103/104 or 593-2-509-523 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 04:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Martha Stewart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the reaction to Martha Stewart, among beekeepers, has two components: 1 - She trivializes the practice of beekeeping by making it appear "chic", something that one wishes to say that one does to become a member of a certain group. This has merit, in the sense that I read her hives were established by a "master beekeeper" in Connecticut. Has she ever put together a super's worth of frames? Or extracted honey on her own from at least one hive? Does she ever peruse the BeeL postings? 2 - She gives beekeeping a higher profile than it had before, at least in the public media. I think the Ulee's Gold film did more than that, particularly the fact that came to light that Henry Fonda had kept bees at one time. I seriously doubt that the people who fixate on table linens and dinner table decor are the same ones who pride themselves on using mis-mixed discount paint for their hive bodies and supers. My own reaction to all of this is that she does appear to have reasonable intentions, and that she probably believes that beekeeping is a valuable practice worthy of persuing, up to a point. That point ended long before she took the step to take her company public on the floor of the New York stock exchange. Beekeeping, as most beekeepers I know, provides many more rewards than the sort mesured in the daily fluctuations of the S&P 500. A local beekeeper's observation hive got me interested. Martha's program (which I never see) might have had the opposite effect. /C. Crowell Hightstown, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 17:11:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Martha Stewart For President. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something the beekeeper needs is to be noble enough to understand what he/she is doing. Even a small beekeeper will have more bees than the population of humans in their state. "Honey Bees the Understanding" means that you control; medicate to maintain health, feed when the population can't, transport to needed agricultural production, hives (housing) maintained, city mayor (queen), city workers (nurse bees), foliage bees (workers), ect. without elections. Controlling an all Vegetarian Female Army with the ease that only a beekeepers gentleness can do. Most never get passed the veil over their head with mead in their head, with bee be gone so no one ever wants to get near you, and no money. If Martha Stewart says she is a beekeeper I will vote for her for President. It is nice to know that someone cares. Michael Housel -- beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 17:32:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Todd Webb Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another hobby with controversial aspects, Civil War Reenacting, has also run afoul of the media with things being misquoted, misrepresented or the media person seeking out the most "outrageous" example of the whatever they're trying to portray. Most reenactors have learned by experience or example to "just say no" when it comes to reporters. As a reenactor and hobby beekeeper, that is just what I intend to do should the situation ever arise. You must never forget- all reporters have an agenda and at best, that agenda is to sell the news. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 18:54:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: localhoneyforsale In-Reply-To: <200009292059.QAA08288@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Concerning www.localhoneyforsale.com... There's ample evidence that this site is being operated by people who aren't very sophisticated when it comes to Internet commerce. Namely: 1. They either harvested (or purchased) email addresses of beekeepers. 2. They sent unsolicited commercial email. 3. Their web site was built from "build your own web site" templates of some fashion. (Note the security@thiswebsite.com mailto: addresses on their privacy policy page.) 4. Their web site lists almost no contact information for the company--no USPS address, no telephone number; just a single email address. I also find it troubling that their privacy policy states that members are encouraged to "provide demographic information (such as income level and gender), and unique identifiers (such as social security number [sic])". One should NEVER give one's SSN to any organization that isn't required by law to know it (such as your employer, or the IRS). The above statement appearing in their privacy policy means that no lawyer reviewed their policy. That being said, I can't really see any convincing evidence that this web site is operating maliciously. If their ultimate goal is to simply harvest email addresses to resell them, then I heavily doubt the number of email addresses they'd solicit from beekeepers would be enough to get them any real money whatsoever. If their goal is to trick people into giving them their SSNs, then they'd have much more success in targeting a larger demographic than beekeepers. I did not receive the email, but just because it was sent by "Terence Golla" doesn't mean that Terence Golla is himself a beekeeper. As the saying goes, never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. This company might be legitimate. Then again, it might not, so exercising caution is a good idea. (Exercising caution is almost always a good idea, actually.) I don't sell honey, so I have no use for their services, but I'd encourage others who might sell honey and might be interested in their services to first write to info@localhoneyforsale.com and ask them some very direct questions. (Such as: Who are you, how did you get my address, why did you send me unsolicited commercial email (spam), why does your web site have no USPS address or telephone numbers listed, and, in general, why should we believe that your business is legitimate?) If your questions aren't answered adequately and promptly, with no waffling, I'd avoid them. Regards, James Pittsburgh, PA, USA Amateur beekeeper, but an IT/computer professional ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:22:02 +0200 Reply-To: Gilles RATIA Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gilles RATIA Organization: Apiservices Subject: Decorative beeswax molds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, We are looking for manufacturers of decorative beeswax molds worldwide. Any information (addresses, tel. fax; email, website, etc.) would be welcome. In advance, thanks. Best regards, Gilles RATIA Email: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com Web: http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:13:27 +0200 Reply-To: Gilles RATIA Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gilles RATIA Organization: Apiservices Subject: Re: unsolicitated email and Beekeeping Classified Ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I visited the to incriminated website www.localhoneyforsale.com Lots of search results with "There were no matches to your search". Normal, it is quite new. Unfortunately, it is only possible to add something if you live in Canada or USA. Moreover, I agree with you about their "Privacy Policy". I am a bit suspicious. So, I have added my services and I'll keep you posted. As an alternative, I recommend you to use rather http://www.beekeeping.com/photoads/ You can find more than 400 Beekeeping Classified Ads in 9 categories: - Honey (wholesale) - Other bee products (royal jelly, pollen, wax, propolis, venom, etc.) - Bees (apiaries, beehives, swarms, queens, etc.) - Beekeeping equipment (extractors, tanks, trucks, etc.) - Jobs (vacant, wanted) - Training, course (vacant, wanted) - Pollination (contracts) - Collectables (books, coins, postcards, etc.) - Miscellaneous (other beekeeping items) If you want to post an ad, this sytem offers you three advantages: - it is free of charge ;-)) - it is the most important Beekeeping Classified Ads system in the world and is well visited because the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" has over 60.000 visits / month! - for SPAM protection, your E-mail address will not be publicly posted with your AD. If someone wishes to response to your AD, the integrated SmartMail system will instantly forward you their message. Best regards, Gilles RATIA gilles.ratia@apiservices.com http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:20:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just my two cents on reporters and reporting. I had to work with reporters in several different jobs. The only time I got into trouble was when I re-directed them to Washington for comments and was written up in the paper as xxx refused to comment on the story. So I decided that to talk to them was better than being made to appear that I was stonewalling. I have been misquoted, and the first time I was ready to leap on my horse and kill all the infidel reporters. But nothing came of it. I got no call on the misquote. And then the truth came to me. The public reads the misquote and within a few days, forgets. Since I was being queried by reporters many times, eventually I got the correct version out. I also found that some reporters were willing to allow me to check their story for accuracy, but only after I made myself freely available to them. One even went to bat for me with his editor to get the truth out. So my lesson is, be open and available and be prepared to be mis-quoted but don't worry about it. Only you are getting worked up about it and most people will not care much anyway. Except your wife or mother who will cut the article out and paste it in a scrapbook, so many generations hence will read things you never said. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:31:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Bee attack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees Sting Elderly Woman 500 Times LAKE FOREST, Calif. (Oct. 1) - Bees stung a 77-year-old woman 500 times while she walked in an Orange County retirement community Sunday, leaving her in critical condition, authorities said. The woman, whose identity was withheld, was attacked when a hive was disturbed by workers at Freedom Village retirement community, said Liz Bear, a spokeswoman for Saddleback Memorial Medical Center. ''She's having an allergic reaction due to the number of stings,'' Bear said. She said the woman remained conscious while hundreds of stingers were removed and was expected to remain hospitalized for several days. Paramedics who responded had to don bee veils and protective clothing to treat the woman, said county fire Capt. Paul Hunter. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:49:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ragging on martha In-Reply-To: <200010011531.LAA23357@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > With her schedule you would need to have help too. Get off her back. I am somewhat anguished that BEE-L has somehow been relaying posts denigrating Martha Stewart's revealing publicly that she has bees. We appreciate and welcome *all* beekeepers (and wannabees) to this list, no matter how skilled or how green, no matter how committed or how casual. Inasmuch as the list carries items that are of interest to beekeepers, I think it was very appropriate that the original post was made pointing out that she has bees. Since she is well known and influential, it is nice to know that she regards bees favourably and enjoys their presence. Other posts adding details seemed appropriate as well. Then, somehow, speculative, mean-spirited posts started to appear in our inboxes... One of the objects of moderation of this list is to ensure that people -- members and non-members alike -- are not subject to uninformed insults and harassment originating from this forum, and that messages passed along are reasonably polite and enjoyable for all. (That's not to say we don't have a little friendly push-and-shove once in a while -- after all we're family). I doubt that Martha Stewart reads BEE-L, but whether she does or not, I apologise to her and to other list members on behalf of the vast majority of those on this list who appreciate that many people have bees for many reasons, and that it is bad form for us to take shots at other beekeepers for no good reason. I think I've said it here before, but I'm going to say it again: Most people don't like bugs. Anyone who likes them -- particularly bees -- is a friend and should be treated as such regardless of our minor differences. After all, there aren't that many of us. We need all the friends we can get. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 06:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: Barb Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barb Subject: Martha Stewart MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Enough on Martha! I have been silent too long! I would never have = taken up beekeeping if I hadn't had the good fortune to meet someone who = kept bees. He let me help take honey from his one and only hive and = that is what brought me to this place. I wouldn't be surprised if the = Martha Stewart Living episode some of you have been lambasting doesn't = bring more people into the hobby. =20 I doubt that Ulee's Gold had the same effect. Am I to believe that = because you keep bees as a livelihood that you live in a shack, are = lonely in love and have a wayward daughter? None of that appeals to me. = There was nothing glamorous about that movie. I would prefer that = people think my hobby is "chic" than what was portrayed by Peter Fonda.=20 =20 As far as fine china and linens, Martha is providing instruction to = women (and men) in the art of domestication. An art that is sadly = lacking in todays world. =20 Sincerely, B. Miller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:27:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: extracting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by HarrisonRW@AOL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove hypertext formatting. > ------------ Original message (ID=A347B8C6) (52 lines) -------------- > Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 22:07:55 EDT > Subject: Fwd: extracting honey > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Is there anyone on the list who lives in Northeast > Connecticut that could > help this gentleman out. > > Please reply to him directly and not to the list. > > Thank You, > Ralph Harrison > Western CT Beekeepers Association > > --part1_55.b8d3ba3.270947fb_boundary > Content-Type: message/rfc822 > Content-Disposition: inline > > Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 16:49:52 EDT > Subject: extracting honey > To: HarrisonRW@aol.com > > dear beekeeper i am looking for someone to extract my honey > frames. my local > apairy does not extract any more. i have 5 hives and no > extracting equipment. > i live in sherman ct. if you know any one in the area that > could help please > let me know. > thanks dave rogers ph.# 860-355-8502 fax 860-355-9026 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 10:40:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Deja-vu, Stewartification, gentrification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a part-time beekeeper, I have another occupation, carriage harness-maker. In the past couple of years the market for my business has suffered from the drop-out of the middle class. The market has become gentrified. Part of that gentrification has been the arrival on the scene of Ms. Stewart. Instead of fulfilling their responsibilities to their mostly ordinary members, some officials of driving organizations became Ms. Stewart's sycophants. Ms. Stewart made herself a prime feature of one organization's annual meeting and drive at Acadia National Park, here in Maine. In the last twenty years, carriage driving had become more democratic, now that progress seems be reversed. I now build harness primarily for old-money families. Ms. Stewart is not responsible for gentrification, she is just part of what has been happening. However, I do not applaud her arrival as a boon for carriage driving, as her relationship to carriage driving best serves her own purposes. There is nothing wrong with a rich person hiring competent help them to dabble in either carriage driving or beekeeping. There is a long tradition of "gentleman-farmers", and such provide gainful employment for a few skilled practitioners of agricultural disciplines. The entry of one such rich person is neither the salvation or downfall of any discipline. However, if Ms. Stewart moves toward the political and regulatory forces in beekeeping, heads up. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 09:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: ragging on martha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In addition to Martha Stewart, there is another TV personality that has bees. I don't recall his name. He gives gardening tips on the Weather Channel in short segments. Last spring he did a segment on catching swarms. He had another "master" beekeeper on the air with him as they worked the swarm. This is probably the same situation as Martha. I recall he talked a lot about the pollination advantages to bees. In fact, it was his garden hive that was swarming. Anything that gets bees out in front of the TV viewing public is goodness, IMHO. Billy Smart ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 13:08:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't see where Drs. Kellum and Ericson have been misquoted. The information attributed to them is accurate, is it not? Your argument is with the reporter's context and angle, and her lack of a grasp of basic bee biology. I think the scientists have set an exemplary example for the rest of us: Be honest. Provide good information. Talking to a reporter is an opportunity to teach and inform. It's better to try to disseminate accurate information than to be passive and not try at all. If you are worried that a reporter is developing a story angle that is skewed, overblown, inaccurate, etc. redirect the reporter to other authoritative sources, such as biologists, entomologists, extension agents and bee lab employees. Their published articles and research can credibly buttress the accuracy of beekeeper comments. Find such people and their research. Redirect reporters to them and their publications. And I understand there are professors and scientists on this list who don't want to talk to reporters. Oh come on. If anybody is in a position to set the record straight, it's you. The rest of us who deeply value honey bees (economically, environmentally, spiritually) need you to have courage and be accessible like Kellums and Ericson. One of the advantages of supporting honey bee research is that it creates experts who have the authority to speak truth to public ignorance. Just because a reporter's ignorance get's in the way, doesn't mean you shouldn't try again. Here's a good reference for Africanzied bee stories. Justin Schmidt at the Carl Hayden Bee Research Center examined the accuracy of the media's portrayal of the Africanized honey bee "threat" in the American Southwest. He surveyed data gathered from veterinarians in the Tucson area about over 5,000 animal attacks. Sadly, since the ARS site (www.nps.ars.usda.gov) has been newly revised, it's still quite buggy and important information is not listed (such as the date of the study), but from the information available the results and the author's opinion are clear (quoted below). I will quote at length. Interpretive Summary: Africanized honey bees are often portrayed in news media as viscous, dangerous creatures to be greatly feared. Attacks by Africanized bees frequently receive front page coverage. From this, citizens and business and professional people may conclude that Africanized bee attacks are common and the bees pose serious risks. Such perceptions may not be benign: public fear can restrict apiary locations and operations; over-blown perceptions of the threats bees can cause increased insurance and loan costs; and governments may restrict the beekeeping industry. The purpose of this investigation was to determine the perceived versus actual risk posed by Africanized bees. Veterinary clinics in Tucson, AZ, an area of 98 percent Africanized bees, were surveyed to determine the risks posed by animal attacks on the pet population. Data from 5000 attacks revealed surprising information: 1) about two-thirds of all attackers were domestic dogs and cats ; 2) dogs were responsible for the majority of severe injuries and deaths of pets; and 3) bee attacks ranked only seventh in attack frequency, below snakes, coyotes and javelinas. The costs subsequent to Africanized bee attacks also ranked below those of snakes, dogs and cats. Overall conclusions are that actual risks to animals posed by Africanized bees are very minor compared to the risks posed by dogs, cats, and wild animals. The false perception that Africanized bees constitute a serious threat and risk is incorrect, and unnecessary restrictions and costs imposed on the beekeeping industry cannot (cut off here on the ARS web site) Technical Abstract: Africanized honey bees arrived in the U. S. in 1990. Since their first appearance, much attention has been focused on these so called "killer bees". While the initial excitement has decreased, questions about their impact remain. Attacks on domestic animals have captured the attention of the local media, causing concern among pet owners and veterinarians to grow. Are attacks becoming more common with the increase in the Africanized honey bee population, or are the attacks simply drawing excessive attention due to their dramatic nature? To answer these and related questions, veterinary clinics/hospitals in and around Tucson were surveyed. A questionnaire was designed to elicit information about the number and type of animal attacks that veterinarians see most frequently. The data derived from over 5000 animal attacks provide the first record of the true extent and severity of bee attacks relative to attacks by other animals. The animals responsible for the greatest number of attacks are cats and dogs. Dog attacks led to the most severe injuries, resulting in the majority of pet deaths. Snakes follow a distant third place in frequency. Honey bee attacks were only seventh in terms of attack frequency, and produced no permanent injuries and few deaths among the pet population. Perhaps the most remarkable finding is the relationship vis-a-vis perception and reality held by the public; that is, bee attack frequency and severity are much less than perceived. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 14:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Mitchell wrote: > > I don't see where Drs. Kellum and Ericson have been misquoted. The > information attributed to them is accurate, is it not? Your argument is with > the reporter's context and angle, and her lack of a grasp of basic bee > biology. Hello John, Because you asked the question of me on bee-l instead of direct as you usually do i figure you must be wanting me to answer on bee-l. I hope all readers read the article. You can read the article at your corner newstand in about five minutes. The article contains 336 words by a reporter not knowing a drone from a worker bee. 21 words are quotes from Dr. David Kellum and Dr. Ericson. The 7 words from David were "This year its just swarm after swarm. The 14 words from Dr. Ericson were"They're not out to hunt you down but any activity could set them off" Talking to a reporter is an > opportunity to teach and inform. My point is simple and from my own experiance dealing with reporters. As i said in the original post i do not blame Ericson or Kellum. Before i learned i had a reporter interview me for a hour and use two or three sentances out of text to get the desired effect the reporter was seeking. The desired effect of the "Outside" magazine article was to scare people at the beekeeping industrys expense. The picture of the bee head was larger than the article! John has went to quite a bit of research to find the article and provide us with added information on AHB. I commend you. John even found the article which (i believe)caused Michelle to write the article for "Outside"in the first place. I will amend my original post to say Ericson and Kellum were not misquoted as far as i know but believe the reporter took a couple sentances from her notes to use make the threat of AHB appear more sensational. I believe the picture with the caption: Slingshot: Apis mellifera scutellata,IN YOUR FACE is further proof of her intentions. As i said in the first post "I will give all reporters a interview AS LONG as i get to look and approve the finnished product". If my name is involved i want the facts represented accurately. Sincerely, Bob Harrison > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 20:55:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Amee Abel Subject: Re: ragging on martha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AL wrote: > does Martha assume the full > responsibility or does she employ someone to do that for her? >If I hire someone to cook for me, may I call myself a chef? No--however, you are the host or hostess and if the cook has been hired for a party, you'd be responsible for the menu--and garner the praise or criticism attending the meal's success or failure. > If I hire someone to plow my land, may I call myself a farmer? Yes--you are a "gentleman farmer." >If I... well you probably get my point. The point is, that while it's easy to make fun of Martha--she's actually a wonderful role model for the "gentleman/gentlewoman beekeeper," making it easier for many suburban beekeepers to gain acceptance because "Martha does it." Who cares how effectively she does it? The fact that she keeps bees may influence more folks to keep bees. If more people keep bees, then beekeeping becomes more acceptable--and Apis Melliflora has a few more chances at survival. --Amee Abel's Apiaries "Happy Hive Making Wholesome Honey" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:14:24 +0800 Reply-To: ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: ragging on martha In-Reply-To: <200010030258.WAA02267@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee Listers, Considering all the bad press africanized honeybees are getting there in North America, and the bad fallout on A. mel. beekeepers, we should be glad for "celebrity" beekeepers. I hope that they can project a good image of beekeeping. I wouldn't go so far as hoping for a spokesperson for beekeeping, but hey, if that person's heart is in the right place, why not! The beekeeping world can always use good press. The next move is ours. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite, Highlands Philippines joel@ilogmaria.com 063 - 46 - 865 - 0018 (home phone) 063 - 917 - 477 - 2194 (cell phone) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 11:54:52 +0000 Reply-To: ibra@cardiff.ac.uk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Authenticated sender is From: IBRA Subject: (Fwd) Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT If you can help, please reply directly to Loris and not the List: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "staff" To: < ibra@cardiff.ac.uk> Subject: WWW homepage Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:11:34 +0200 Where can I found a wav file containing the beesound? Loris Email me to this adress: soprano@ciaoweb.it ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:25:36 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/2/00 6:53:50 PM, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << "I will give all reporters a interview AS LONG as i get to look and approve the finnished product" >> It's the same thing as not participating at all, because most media organizations have policies against it, and for good reason. Let's run it through a hypothetical scenario. Let's say I talk to 4 beekeepers, 2 professors and one ranger, and they all want to approve the final product. Beekeeper A sees that his honey harvest was less than the others so now he wants to revise the original figure upward or he won't participate. The new number is a lie. Beekeeper B wants bragging rights down at the bee club so he wants to tweak the original numbers or he's not going to participate. The new numbers are a lie. Beekeeper C sees that one of the other beekeepers prominently featured is a woman and he doesn't think women should be commercial beekeepers, so even though the story is accurate he is disinclined to participate because the story doesn't reflect his prejudice. Beekeeper D was adamant about reviewing the final story but now she has disappeared into the hills for a week to move bees and won't be back until well after deadline. Professor Aa has just written a book on breatharian beekeeping, and threatens to pull his quotes if a gratuitous, irrelevant mention of his new book isn't inserted somewhere in the story. Professor Bb doesn't like reporters anyway, so even though the story is accurate he is going to pull his quotes at the last minute just for spite. Ha, ha. Ranger Rick sees that an anecdote has been told about him that portrays the park service in an unflattering light. While the anecdote is accurate and the problems are real, Ranger Rick doesn't want to be the ranger that unwittingly revealed the flaw in park service policy, so he is inclined to pull his quotes. Obviously some of these are exaggerations, but not by as much as you think. Do you really think the story that results from this process is going to be worth reading? And if you remove yourself and your information from the story early, the story will still be told but not with the good accurate information you could have provided. More than likely the hole that is left will be filled with garbage, or at least something less valuable than what you could have contributed. Sure, sometimes the story that results will still be garbage, but look at all the positive media coverage that wouldn't have happened if beekeepers had demanded to review the final product. A beekeeper in San Francisco has been featured in the local newspaper, a regional magazine and several times on National Public Radio for his beekeeping efforts in the city. After all the positive coverage, I don't think San Francisco will be passing an anti-beekeeping ordinance any time soon. This spring, The Boston Globe produced an outstanding story on the rising interest in hobby beekeeping that included interviews with a number of first-time beekeepers. There are more, but these are the first that come to mind. Provide good information and most of the time you won't go wrong. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 07:52:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! In-Reply-To: <200010031328.JAA13118@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << "I will give all reporters a interview AS > LONG as i get to look and approve the finnished product" >> > It's the same thing as not participating at all, because most media > organizations have policies against it... Well, it works for me. There is a difference between A.) demanding a veto and B.) insisting politely on the right to scan the finished article before publication to catch obvious misunderstandings. The former is viewed as interference and an attempt to manipulate the press, the latter is an offer to be helpful and is to the benefit of everyone. When approached for an interview or shoot, I merely state that beekeeping is a technical subject, that is difficult to understand, and that it has a lingo of its own. Therefore a writer is likely to look pretty stupid unless someone with knowledge of the subject looks the finished work over to catch obvious errors. Writers are usually proud of their work and appreciate your help, if it is really help and not an attempt at interference. I insist politely on scanning any finished work, be it a news article or a script, explaining that it is not my intent to tell the writer what to think or say, but that I don't want my name associated with anything with gross factual errors and I wouldn't want the writer to make a huge gaffe on my account. I don't insist on seeing the final final copy. Getting a fax or having the material read to me on the phone is fine. I have never had any problems getting co-operation, and just about every time I have found some little thing that has made the writer glad I read it over. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 08:29:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Attack of the Killer Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Ok, as a bruised and bashed 27 yr veteran of dealing with the press, some additional comments: 1. I am not against talking to reporters, but I am disturbed about the U.S. press and its accuracy of reporting. It starts in journalism school. If student reporters were graded on the accuracy of their stories, most would fail the course. In the sciences, we would fail any student who wrote an essay on the same topic and got it so wrong. 2. There are good reporters, and you want to cultivate a good relationship with them. Help them find stories. They and their editors will appreciate it. 3. << "I will give all reporters a interview AS LONG as i get to look and approve the finnished product" >> Both sides of this issue have some truth. Fact checking should not mean that you ask if you spelled my name correctly. The reporter and editor have the option of writing the final story the way they want - but there is a difference between accurately reporting documented facts, versus the differences of opinion among several people. I found this to be a very contentious issue at a workshop for technical writers that was put on in conjunction with a national conservation society meeting. These were science writers. Some of national magazines/journals not only won't provide a copy of the article to review, they will fire the reporter who provides it. At the same time, other publications said they sometimes allowed it, and more than one reporter said he/she would provide it if requested regardless of the policy of their employer. The difference, those reporters who would provide a copy for review said that they wanted to be accurate AND THEY WANTED THE TRUST of the person they interviewed, so that they could do follow on stories. 4. The people at this workshop (reporters, writers, publishers, and some scientists) indicated that they thought that local news was most likely to get it wrong, that the "professional" magazines had more time for the story, so would get it right, and that TV was the most iffy - cutting back to sound bites, with national worse than local. My take after hundreds of interviews is different, and it is biased because I live in a small town. Our local TV is great!! They do a really good job, and we see them each year. Our local paper is ok, depends on the reporter. The old guy who never takes notes is a pain, the younger reporters really put in some time and effort. National magazines and journals, some are very good, some very bad - no predicting. National TV - aggressive, wants the story for headlines - I've turned these down. 5. You always have the option of not doing the story. 6. There has been one outstanding glimmer of hope in all of this. Some years ago, I made the front page of a Seattle paper. I got a clipping from their ombudsman. The ombudsman attached a questionnaire. Was the article accurate? Did it cover the story? Was I correctly quoted? Was the headline appropriate. That is the one and only time anyone ever asked, did we get it right? Jerry << "I will give all reporters a interview AS LONG as i get to look and approve the finnished product" >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 11:11:50 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & all, Had to chuckle at your examples! Ranger Rick and Professor Bb i think i might have met before! I guess in the best interest of beekeeping i should say talk to the reporter but be careful of the things you say. In Missouri we have a saying about what happens to you when you don't learn from your mistakes. "Mistakes are ok as long as you learn from them". Having been burnt by reporters i will have to stick by my policy of reviewing their work. I feel i am a representative of the beekeeping industry. I am one of the American Beekeeping Federation representatives for Missouri. A article on beekeeping is not under the same pressure as a front page news article. I might wave my policy depending on the subject BUT African bees and semi truck wrecks are two subjects i stand firm on. Most reporters have their eyes set on a editors job. If the reporter would stop and think of the damage done by the alure apple scare which proved unfounded to the apple industry before writing the story. Needless scaring of people about african bees IS another problem. A simple warning would do. Trying to stop the interstate transportation of bees because of the dangers of the every once in a while wreck. Bad publicity needs to be avoided. My beekeeping insurance is going up for the second time in two years. Not because of real insurance claims. At least that is what the insurance company says. The insurance is going up because of all the negative press on african bees. Is the insurance going up on home owners because of dog or snake bites? In my original post and example after Brian Webb refused to let me review the finnished work he approach another smaller local beekeeper. After a 30 minute interview all he got was a picture of his hands holding a frame of bees and not even his name on tv. The article was all of Brians making and very inaccurate as you would imagine comming from a person not directly involved in beekeeping. The article tried to portray a semi load of beehives as a time bomb waiting to erupt. Hang the polination! Hide the women and children! As a beekeeper which has moved bees on our interstates (both legally and illegally). I try to repect other peoples enjoyment of the roadways. Walking great distances to eating places and fueling at night and only when neccessary. I will admit however to letting my foot slip off the clutch at a Department of transportation check point releasing thousands of angry bees into the air (attack of the killer bees!). I will also admit to being hard of hearing to the crys of the DOT to remove the truck from their checkpoint right away. I will also quietly pull the truck back out on the interstate when confronted by a angry gas station owner standing in the driveway with a shotgun. The worlds polination wouldn't get done without trucks moving down the interstates hauling bees. Millions are moved each year. Because of the low profile of their movement i bet many bee-l readers have never even seen a truckload of bees in transit. I do apologize to the department of transportation for my comments about their department but holding up a loaded load of bees for any reason other than inspection for disease irks me! I know there have got to be good DOT and reporters. Hopefully we will meet one of these days! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Grumpy old beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 13:05:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry is right, there are a great deal of subtleties involved with different kinds of journalists. A science writer or an environmental journalist on staff would probably not have made the bush-league drone gaffe that appeared in the Outside magazine piece. A GA reporter (general assignment) working a news peg (woman stung by bees) is more likely to err. But that person is also probably on a fast deadline and has the least time to get back to you for fact checking. There may be inaccuracies and distortions, but probably not deliberate or malicious. In my experience, the one who is most tempted to deliberately distort is a freelance journalist. A freelancer has to get noticed by busy assignment editors out of a crowd of freelancers. Sometimes these people have to "hard hustle" and story ideas get pumped up and overblown. Hopefully, professionalism and accuracy will win out, but since the reporter doesn't get paid, or doesn't get paid as much, if the story isn't published, there is strong incentive to deliver what the magazine bought and not what the reporting actually revealed. It's a management issue for editors that care about accuracy, and good editors arrange their freelance relationships with reporters in such a way that this kind of thing is less of a problem. Hyperbole cuts both ways though. I worked at a radio show that produced one of the stories about the aforementioned San Francisco beekeeper. The first time I heard we were doing the story, it was presented to me as "we are doing a story about the guy who brought bees back to San Francisco," which would probably have come as quite a surprise to the other beekeepers in that city. That's the way the reporter pitched the story and it sufficiently motivated the producer to buy it. We didn't say that in the final story because it wasn't accurate, but you see how it is between freelancers and the people that hire them. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:26:23 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > 6. There has been one outstanding glimmer of hope in all of > this. Some > years ago, I made the front page of a Seattle paper. I got a > clipping from > their ombudsman. The ombudsman attached a questionnaire. > Was the article > accurate? Did it cover the story? Was I correctly quoted? Was the > headline appropriate. I was surprised several years ago, nearly a year after providing some relatively minor details for a story about Vespula germanica in New Zealand, to get a call from a Reader's Digest "Fact Checker". This woman, on contract, did follow up audits for sources, accuracy, etc. I was very impressed! Nick Wallingford http://www.beekeeping.co.nz nickw@beekeepng.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:31:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Attack of the Killer Bees Comments: cc: cveldink@evcc.ctc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Mitchell made a very good point, as follows (one that matches my experience): > In my experience, the one who is most tempted to deliberately distort is a >freelance journalist. A freelancer has to get noticed by busy assignment >editors out of a crowd of freelancers. Sometimes these people have to "hard >hustle," and story ideas get pumped up and overblown. Hopefully, >professionalism and accuracy will win out, but since the reporter doesn't get >paid, or doesn't get paid as much if the story isn't published, there is >strong incentive to deliver what the magazine bought and not what the >reporting actually revealed. Nick Wallingford and Jerry Bromenshenk noted that they had been pleasantly surprised by appropriate professional treatment in specific cases. Very often I have realized (when dealing with writers) --- after the fact --- that they already had their story written before contacting me. Subsequently, they would select a minor adverse item I furnished and emphasize it all out of proportion, omitting all mention of contrary hard evidence provided them. Newspapers at the local level have provided my best experiences, perhaps because those reporters know they will likely need "expert" opinion on one matter or another about insects in the future. The most professional experience I had was with a reporter and photographer from the LOS ANGELES TIMES. They accompanied me on a 40 mile round trip by sailboat to Santa Cruz Island and later wrote (and illustrated) a feature article that I could mail to relatives without fear of embarassment. That, despite the fact that the reporter got dreadfully seasick (and, oddly, is now a travel writer for that paper). One can read that article ("Lord of the Gadflies") at the following web site (last item): http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Yes, I still agree to interviews with reporters and writers but remain cautious, largely following Tom Sanford's 10 rules that I posted earlier (most of which I had learned the hard way, on my own). Oftentimes I ask incisive questions of such people before beginning the interview to determine whether they have an agenda not compatible with objective reporting. If so, I become far more cautious about opening up. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "To have one's opinions prefabricated can be a source of great * comfort and relief. It relieves one of the responsibility of * choice." * Murray Levin, 1971 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 21:38:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris Hiemstra Subject: Re: Winterizing Colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The honey is off, and the hives are fed. Would it be a problem if I put my winter wraps on now? It is earlier than normal. Will it cause extra brood production or stimulate the colonies? These are insulated blankets that wrap around the hives, and a bat of insulation lays on top of the inner cover. Chris Hiemstra Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 22:06:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris Hiemstra Subject: life or death decisions for light colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I need your thoughts, I have been open barrel feeding my colonies. When I check the weight of hives, I find many of them feel excellent or normal, and others are small and light weight (too light). Since the hives are small and light weight, I guess that there is something wrong and they will not make it on their own. I would like to take steps to make the best of the situation. I treated for mites properly and all is in order. My goal is to come through winter with as many healthy hives as possible. Here are some of my options: 1. Just feed them additional syrup with a pail on top and try to overwinter them above a strong colony. 2. Unite 1 light weight colony with 1 strong colony (newspaper method). 3. Unite two light weight colonies together to try make one strong one(newspaper method) 4. Give each light weight colony a new queen( I have some mating nucs that I could unite them with), and then feed them additional syrup. Chris Hiemstra Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 07:43:24 +0200 Reply-To: Gilles RATIA Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gilles RATIA Organization: Apiservices Subject: Re: Wav file containing the beesound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loris wrote to BEE-L (via IBRA ?): >>>>>>>> Where can I found a wav file containing the beesound? <<<<<<<< Go to http://www.beekeeping.com/index_us.htm , then select "Catalogs" , then select "Sounds". Have fun ;-)) Best regards, Gilles RATIA Beekeeping Consultant Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" President of the Apimondia Standing Commission on Beekeeping Technology and Equipment Email: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:05:22 -0700 Reply-To: gregoire@endor.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Ernest J. Gregoire" Subject: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris, I am in the process of doing my pre-winter-wrap chores in the bee yard. Over wintering a small colony by it self is tough in north country. I place weaker, colonies in a duplex nuc box. ( One colony on either side of a deep box, five frames each, separted with a bee proof divider.) I place this duplex on top of a strong hive, separte the duplex from the carrier hive with a double screen board. Uppper entrances are a must as are vented top insulating boards. I use Homesote , it's made of paper and absorbs moisture. > Here are some of my options: > 1. Just feed them additional syrup with a pail on top and try to overwinter > them above a strong colony. Don't do this. > 2. Unite 1 light weight colony with 1 strong colony (newspaper method). This is OK. > 3. Unite two light weight colonies together to try make one strong > one(newspaper method) Why not try the duplex nuc method! > 4. Give each light weight colony a new queen( I have some mating nucs that I > could unite them with), and then feed them additional syrup. There is not enough good weather left in the season to do this. Ernie Gregoire Grist Mill Apiary Canaan, NH. USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:22:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Wrapping early MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Chris' question I have limited experience, but perhaps a similar climate here in Central Maine. Last year I wrapped early and we had a balmy Fall until Christmas. By Jan 1, one colony had eaten 100# of honey, having been rearing much brood. Others had to be fed sugar in late winter, and most became voracious consumers of pollen substitute by early March, apparently having depleted their pollen stores on brood. With diligence the losses were minimaI, being limited to the ravages of trachael mites on susceptible colonies weakened despite treatment, but I can do without weekly treks on snowshoes to feed hungry colonies. I shall wait until Thanksgiving to wrap this year unless ithe weather gets very cold before that time. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:08:16 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently supplied some frames of comb honey to a resort that wanted to offer their guests a treat. When asked for recommendations on how to serve and "eat" comb honey I was at a loss. It wouldn't have been appropriate for me to suggest my own technique - chewing it then spitting the wax out onto the ground. I will need better ideas than this if I am going to make a repeat customer here. Traditionally, how was comb honey and cut comb honey used and how do people use it now? John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:07:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Amee Abel Subject: Re: Comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Traditionally, how was comb honey and cut comb honey used and how do people > use it now? > > John My understanding was that either 1) the comb was scratched and the honey allow to drip out before serving (that was done in the kitchen by the servants before the honey was brought to the table). or 2) The comb honey, wax and all, was spread on toast and eaten. (Yes, wax and all.) Those who found the wax undesirable would remove the wax from their mouths by either ejecting it onto a spoon or fork, or into their hands. The ejected wax would be placed on the service plate, the same as an olive pit. The rule for whether you use a utensil or not is that the food leaves your mouth in the same way it got there. Thus, if you used the fork to carry a comb to your mouth, you eject the wax onto the fork, then carry it to the plate. If you used toast (and so your hand), you'd place the unwanted wax into your hand. --Amee Abel's Apiaries "Happy Hive Making Wholesome Honey" > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 12:01:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Wav file containing the beesound MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have read that the bee sound is roughly equivalent to the key of B, one note below middle C on the piano. This is what I found when perusing the BEE-L archives. However, I seem to recall a different note mentioned in one of Sue Hubbell's books (I think it was a sharp). Anyone have any other information? Thanks/ Curtis Crowell Hightstown, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Wav file containing the beesound In-Reply-To: <200010041609.MAA27715@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I have read that the bee sound is roughly equivalent to the key of B, > Anyone have any other information? Curtis - As far as I know the sound will vary depending on the activity the bee is doing. Can you qualify your statement for there being "a" certain key or pitch? Dr. Adrain Wenner has done a significant amount of work in bee sounds and you can read an article of his at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/sci1964.htm Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:12:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Eating comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Amee said "2) The comb honey, wax and all, was spread on toast and eaten. (Yes, wax and all.)" Actually, if the toast were hot the person would not even be aware (by taste or texture) that wax were being consumed as it would be melted and invisible. I know a very slim gentleman who eats 1/2 of a Ross Rounds every morning on his oatmeal. He puts the comb on when the oatmeal is at its hottest, stirs, and it disappears! I can still remember pancakes and waffles with comb honey, and the stress of waiting until it melted. Yummm... Finally, an extremely successful restrant I know of serves a piece of comb with every fish entrée. It seemed strange to me until I tasted it, and the honey is a wonderful compliment to the taste of the fish. The chef could obviously use regular honey just as well, but then she would lose the appearance that makes this combination so unique. Lloyd Mailto: Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Wrapping early MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in South Eastern Ontario and wrap in November. There are still going to be warm sunny days yet. That will cause the hive to get extremely hot. The sun is still fairly intense. Bees don't die from cold in the winter. They die from excessive moisture, starvation and disease. I think wrapping early will cause the honey consumption to stay abnormally high if the hive is quite warm. This could cause you some problems in the early spring. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:46:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/00 10:26:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lewis@SUVA.IS.COM.FJ writes: << It wouldn't have been appropriate for me to suggest my own technique - chewing it then spitting the wax out onto the ground. I will need better ideas than this if I am going to make a repeat customer here. >> Point out that beeswax is natural fiber, a moderate laxative. You don't have to spit it out at all. It is a bit more palatable if spread on hot toast or biscuits. There is no better honey than that directly from the comb. Ummmm. Dave Green Goldenrod visitors at the Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com/goldenrod/htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:18:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Prabois from arc3a315.bf.sover.net [209.198.116.253] 209.198.116.253 Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:16:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Huguet - Sumner Subject: Freezing syrup in winter? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I have a question about fall and winter feeding. In the last week of Aug. I caught an enormous swarm. Honestly, I = believe there was between 12 - 15 lbs of bees. By late Aug. here in = Vermont even the Golden Rod has started to go by. And as a result, the = bees were able to build up a great deal of comb but there is very little = honey. So I purchased and installed a Hive Top Feeder, which can hold = four gallons of sugar syrup. My question is what happens when the syrup freezes? The bees are not = able to ball around it to thaw it out - like I understand they do on the = frames. Does this new hive have a chance? Thanks, Sandy Sumner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:52:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Freezing syrup in winter? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/4/00 3:31:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rabois@SOVER.NET writes: > So I purchased and installed a Hive Top Feeder, which can hold = > four gallons of sugar syrup. > My question is what happens when the syrup freezes? The bees are not = > able to ball around it to thaw it out - like I understand they do on the = > frames. Does this new hive have a chance? If they have so many bees, they do have a chance. But you should not continue feeding syrup into cold weather. The bees have plenty enough problems trying to get rid of water, without contending with the water in the syrup. So freezing is not your problem. I suggest that you remove the liquid feeder when cold weather arrives and begin dry sugar feeding. Make a 1 1/2 to 2 inch rim. Place an excluder down first, if you are going to use this thru spring. Then your rim, then a sheet of newspaper. Fill the rim with dry sugar. Moisture rising from the bees below will solidify the sugar into a block, and will also wet and sweeten the newspaper. They will then chew thru the paper, as needed, and will consume the condensate dampened sugar. To work effectively, the sugar should be directly above the cluster, so they can feed whenever it is warm enough to move. With the swarm so late, you may also wish to supplement the pollen. Another aid is a double screen so you can set this colony over a strong hive, where they will gain the surplus heat from below. Place the upper entrance at the back in relation to the lower entrance. You will still get a little drift upward, but you don't want to kill the lower hive with too much drift. I have gotten late swarms thru by such techniques. I also wonder if it is really worth it, because it is quite expensive to provide ALL the feed for the bees. You might consider combining with a hive that has sufficient weight but has a poor queen that you can kill. That way you will also save another hive in the process. Dave Green http://pollinator.com To kill a fungus: Try a fungicide To kill a rat or mouse: Try a rodenticide To kill an insect: Try an insecticide To kill a human: Try homicide (But that's too frank for a lot of folks, so they call it RU-486.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 13:04:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Eating comb honey In-Reply-To: <200010041708.NAA29966@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm slightly surprised to hear a beekeeper ask how to eat comb, since I thought we all sample as we go, both in the field and in the honey house, so I gather that we are looking for ideas that will appeal to the public, since beekeepers are already converts. > Actually, if the toast were hot the person would not even be aware (by taste > or texture) that wax were being consumed as it would be melted and > invisible. Even if the toast is cold, the wax is not particularly noticeable in my experience. Buns, crumpets, bagels are all good with comb smeared on them, wax and all. In my experience, there is no right or wrong way to eat comb honey, but there are some things to consider. * Not all comb honey is the same. Some is natural, some is on thin comb foundation, some is on wired brood foundation, and nowadays, some is on plastic sheet foundation. * The best comb honey is either natural comb like from a top bar hive or sections made with starter strips -- or full sheets of the finest comb foundation you can find. * Whatever foundation is used, it must be made from virgin wax and must be a thin as the manufacturer can possibly make it if it is to be eaten by the consumer. Although comb foundation uses less wax per sheet than thicker foundation, it may cost more. We found Kelley's to be the best and always paid a premium to get it, first through Tom, then through Lloyd. There are other brands, but you want the best. * If the midrib is thin, as it is in natural comb or the best man-made foundation, then it is enjoyable to eat wax and all with your fingers, with a spoon or any which way you can. * If the comb is made on thick brood foundation or plastic, then the answer is to use a spoon. We have had customers over the years who bought entire frames, scooped the honey off as they ate it, then returned the frames. We then put the frames back in a hive and repeated the process. * If you have a market table or sell at your door, then, when extracting always watch for the nicest frames, wrap them in Saran, and take them to the market with you in a nice looking super. You'll fetch a premium price for the honey, and you can charge a deposit on the frame. That ensures your customer comes back. * The sale of frames as described above is mostly small-time and for the local trade, but the market for sections, such as RRs are nationwide and international. We sold well over 100,000 Ross Rounds into Japan back in their good times. Nonetheless, there is a Japanese buyer that buys wired standard frames by the container load and uses electricity to heat the wire enough to pull it out. The comb is then chunked and sold. * Eating comb honey is a special treat that takes us back to a simpler time and must be presented as such. People who would not eat wax normally will then usually accept the idea. FWIW: Before the basic ingredient for bubble gum was discovered, beeswax was the only popular chew available, and it is still pretty darn good -- if you enjoy chewing gum. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:32:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Killion supers and managment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, Can anyone tell me the difference between the Killion super and Ross = Round super other than the shape of comb? Are killion supers still used = on a large scale by commercial beekeepers? Where can they be obtained( = commercially manufactured or homemade). Also, what are the management = practices for comb honey production using the killion method. Are there = other management practices that are simpler, yield good results and have = less labor? How do new world carniolans work for comb honey production = as far as swarming is concerned. Thanks in advance. Clayton Huestis Crown Point, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:50:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Killion supers and managment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clayton, Read Karl Killion's book - It is quite famous. I have had Carniolans for 52 years. Carnies are not great comb builders compared to Italians. Making comb honey sections, which I do, is tough with Carnies. It is wise to become a swarm "expert" before trying to make comb honey sections with Carnies. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Feeding the big swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sandy, You may rest assured that, with so many bees, the syrup in your big feeder will not likely freeze. I tried that in 0F-10F weather last year, and there was plenty of heat from the bees quickly to cause fermentation. The fermentation gave the bees made the bees dungy and I had to change over to sugar cakes. The cakes (they're in the archives) worked great and the bees lived on them from just after New Years day until the Spring nectar flows. Right now your colony may be able to put away much syrup as sugar-honey, and it's great if they can. Just don't give them so much syrup at a time that it ferments. Right now, my robust colonies are consuming their Fumidil syrup at about two quarts in half a day per colony. I like the division board feeders from Better Bee for this because they are plastic, and can be thoroughly cleaned to inhibit fermentation. If you have two such feeders you can shake the bees out of the empty onto the top bars, give them a clean one, and clean the empty. Since your swarm may also have little pollen, you might wish to know that last winter my bees also consumed many patties of pollen substitute and seemed very glad to get them. There seemed to be a marked improvement in their attitude following the Winter and Spring feeding. Long live your swarm, Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:08:30 -0400 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: life or death decisions for light colonies Hi! I think that a colony *prepares itself* for winter and ensures the conditions for its own success. If these conditions are lacking it is very difficult to simulate them. I combined many colonies last fall and I must say that the effort was mostly wasted. you wrote: 1. Just feed them additional syrup with a pail on top and try to overwinter them above a strong colony. -- feeding won't make up for lack in colony strength 2. Unite 1 light weight colony with 1 strong colony (newspaper method). -- this is really the only option, though may be a waste of time. 3. Unite two light weight colonies together to try make one strong one(newspaper method) -- complete waste of time. two zeros add up to one zero. 4. Give each light weight colony a new queen( I have some mating nucs that I could unite them with), and then feed them additional syrup. -- may be worth trying but if the unit is not storng you'll probably lose it, new queen and all. the best tactic for weak colonies is to shake the bees out and store the equipment. a weak hive is probably mostly old bees and have little to add to any other hive. the time to prepare for winter is in the summer, requeening and such. by fall, the die is cast. some will not make it, and there's little to be done. peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:17:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Million tons of sugar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Maybe the government could be encouraged to develop a sugar feed for beekeepers program as a way of helping support the beekeeping industry? The following-described relationship between the govt. and the sugar industry is similar to the way the honey loan program worked, correct? Gov't Gets Tons of Forfeited Sugar WASHINGTON — Care for some sugar? The government has plenty on hand now that processors have turned over nearly a million tons rather than try to sell it themselves at a loss. The sugar was held as collateral under federal price-support loans. Processors are allowed to forfeit the sugar rather than repay the loans when domestic prices fall below the loans' value, as they have this year. The Agriculture Department said Wednesday that more than 804,000 tons, worth $321 million, were forfeited to the government this week. Another 155,000 tons were surrendered earlier. Since the early 1980s, USDA has avoided forfeitures by keeping imports low enough to stabilize domestic prices, but prices have been driven down this year because of big increases in U.S. production and other factors. Some of the government's sugar, about 290,000 tons, will be given to farmers who have pledged to destroy an equivalent amount of this year's crop in a program to reduce the surplus. The department hasn't decided what to do with the rest, said spokeswoman Mary Beth Schultheis. The department purchased 141,000 tons of sugar this spring in a futile effort to prop up prices and avoid the forfeitures. That sugar, plus the forfeited amount, brings the government's total stock to 1.1 million tons. Storing the sugar will cost taxpayers more than $2 million a month. But the government could recover the cost of the sugar by waiting for prices to rise and then selling it, said Jack Roney, chief economist for the American Sugar Alliance. "It would enable USDA to not only dispose of the sugar, but also enable them to make a profit on the entire transaction," he said. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:47:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Chuckle-Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of days ago I contributed some thoughts concerning how to eat comb honey. After reading that, one list member joked that he was going to order 1,000 Ross Round supers. In my reply, I shared with him the name of the person who "eats 1/2 of a RR section daily on his oatmeal", as we both know him well (and I supply him with his comb honey). He sent me the following reply, that caused me to chuckle, and I thought you might enjoy it as well: "Now you need to tell the list that that guy is, what 80+, has kids in grade school and keeps his wife happy." While the above is true, I am not certain it can be attributed solely to the comb honey. What I am certain of is that regular consumption of comb honey is much less expensive, and is probably as effective as the various herbal potions so popular today! IMHO, this is primarily, but not solely, due to the inevitable presence of pollen. Lloyd Mailto: Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:53:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb honey and Killion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clayton asked several questions concerning the "killion method" of comb honey production: 1. "The difference between the Killion super and Ross = Round super other than the shape of comb?" Killion started producing comb honey well before the commercial availability of what are today known as Ross Rounds. By the time he stopped beekeeping, most of his production was Ross Rounds, using the same supers. His son still produces some comb honey...100% of which is Ross Rounds. For as long as I can remember, he has annually won blue ribbons for these at the January ABF honey show. 2. "Are killion supers still used on a large scale by commercial beekeepers? Where can they be obtained (commercially manufactured or homemade). I have never seen a commercial beekeeper use anything except a basic Killion super, whether for Ross Rounds or wood sections. What Killion taught us is that we need to create an inner "box" to hold the section equipment (frames, in the case of Ross Rounds), so the bees would finish more of the end sections as well as those next to the side walls. I believe only Kelley (800-233-2899) still sells a completely assembled super for wood sections, although many dealers sell separately the super and all of its components. The completely assembled super for wooden sections is very expensive. Virtually every dealer sells a completely assembled super for Ross Rounds, at modest prices. Because they are far easier to manage, Ross Round equipment outsells that for wood sections by about 10 to 1. 3. "What are the management practices for comb honey production using the killion method. Are there other management practices that are simpler, yield good results and have less labor? As George Imirie suggested, buy the Killion book. It is available from any dealer for less than $15. There are probably no better management practices for wood sections. However, management practices for producing outstanding quality Ross Rounds are much simpler and involve much less labor. Look at Taylor's "The Comb Honey Book", or my articles in Bee Culture. The latter are currently available on the Root web site, http://www.airoot.com. (Once there, go to Bee Culture. From Bee Culture, click on Archives. Then look at May and July, 1999.) 4. "How do new world carniolans work for comb honey production as far as swarming is concerned." This is one of the rare times I disagree with George Imirie. I exclusively use NWC's and think they have a low tendency to swarm and make beautiful comb for Ross Rounds. Most of all, enjoy your comb honey production. Those who regularly produce comb honey can assure themselves that they are truly beekeepers, and not beehavers. In producing comb honey, a beekeeper is working with bees to do what comes naturally. And what a great reward! Lloyd Mailto: Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:12:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Comb Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: This discussion just served as a reminder of the need for marketing. Like Allen, I was surprised when a beekeeper asked how to eat comb honey. None of the University Students who work for us know what comb honey is or how to eat it - so if you want to sell comb honey, obviously you need to do some education. I am one of the folks who much prefers comb honey over extracted honey. The wax cuts the sweetness just a bit - I don't really like sugary sweets. Hot or cold, is still good. On the flip side, first time I got one of the plastic honey sticks, I couldn't figure out how to open it - and I find many adults don't know. Give it to a kid or one of my students, and they bite it open and squeeze it - usually right onto their tongues, not into coffee or tea. So, its what we are used to, and we forget quickly. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:27:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies In-Reply-To: <200010051209.IAA28225@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think that a colony *prepares itself* for winter and ensures the > conditions for its own success. If these conditions are lacking it is > very difficult to simulate them. I combined many colonies last fall > and I must say that the effort was mostly wasted... I think this is a good point, and we must add to that the fact that this takes time during weather that is warm enough for the bees to work wax. For good wintering up here in Western Canada, the bees need some time to get settled, and re-arranging of the brood combs after August can be fatal. That having been said, we find combining works, provided that entire brood supers are stacked up without their combs being rearranged. Bees can also be shaken from sacrificed hives and partial brood chambers into the ones that are being kept, as suggested. > ...the best tactic for weak colonies is to shake the bees out and store the equipment. > a weak hive is probably mostly old bees and have little to add to any other hive. This is a generalisation, which is often as not true, but there are many exceptions such as hives that superseded, were sprayed, were started late, etc. It is possible to examine the bees and see if they are young and healthy or mite-eaten and old. It is also possible to examine the brood of a weak hive and decide if it is healthy and well fed. Assuming that the weak hives are otherwise good, it often works to make a double hive out of the main brood chambers of each and shaking in the stray bees from other boxes. It is not necessary to seek out the queens. The bees will take care of that. > The time to prepare for winter > is in the summer, requeening and such. by fall, the die is cast. some > will not make it, and there's little to be done. This is basically true, but the methods described above can help salvage worthwhile bees and brood and we have been quite successful with hives made up of two, three, or even four weaker hives. The question of feed is the difficult one, since any hive that has been starving, will be made up of bees that will prove to be useless for wintering. Even a short period of feed shortage will weaken a hive beyond recovery, since the bees wear themselves out looking for food or deplete their body reserves. Assuming the hives are light and not starving and that feed is being applied as soon as the condition is observed, there are many ways to feed -- even all winter -- and they have been discussed in detail here, so I won't go into detail and leave those interested to look in the archives (which I hope we all keep bookmarked and which I hope we consult often). David's dry sugar method, which I saw demonstrated when I visited him, is simple and works well in his area which is pretty far south. Up here in the Great White North (and it is white today), it is a prescription for rapid hive death. The best feeding methods for our area are feeding concentrated sugar syrup at 67% sugar by weight or volume (doesn't matter) or of combs of honey placed in the outside frames. FWIW, we are still feeding and have 100 drums of syrup left to put out yet. We are confident they will be consumed, since it only takes a day or two of weather suitable for bee flight. We feed outside in drums and they will forage for it late in the season when they will not do much with inside feeders. The fact that they go to get it ensures that it is warm enough for them to eliminate the excess water as well. Another possibility is fondant placed above the cluster, but we had limited success with it this spring, but Murray makes it work well for him in a cool climate. Most inside feeders stop working in cold weather unless they are in direct contact with the cluster. Bees cease using them even in weather when they will go to a drum outside or rob another hive. There is even the chance the cluster will actually move into a Miller feeder and perish, since they lose contact with their comb. Moreover top insulation which is essential in the North cannot work when a Miller type feeder is on. Division board feeders can work, but are off to the side and do not hold enough to do the job. I saw a beekeeper maintain hives all winter with a gallon wine bottle with a long neck and a single nail hole thrust down through the top insulation. However his hives were not much to look at in the spring. It takes good bees to start and combs full of honey or syrup with some pollen buried to keep them in top shape. That is hard to set up late in the season. We are currently feeding just to top up the supplies, not to remedy starvation. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:38:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: sci.agriculture.beekeeping, Misdirected Posts, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A reminder to all that the newsgroup sci.agriculture.beekeeping exists and often has good material. Beginner questions are often discussed there, as well as deeper issues. You can reach sci.agriculture.beekeeping using a newsreader. If this does not work for you there are some other ideas at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee/sci.htm. Personally, I find myself reduced to using Deja.com on the web since my ISP does not have good newsfeed. alt.hobbies.beekeeping also exists, but does not have as much traffic. Another thing: When you send a message to BEE-L, you should receive a confirmation message almost instantly from the LISTSERV. Ideally we should check our headers before sending, but sometimes we forget. If you do not get a confirmation, the message never got to the moderators. Check in your 'sent' folder to see if the message was sent only to the writer of a previous article. If so, edit and resubmit. I mention this because it just happened to me. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:54:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/5/00 10:35:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > David's dry sugar method, which I saw demonstrated when I visited him, is > simple > and works well in his area which is pretty far south. Up here in the Great > White North (and it is white today), it is a prescription for rapid hive > death. Allen, please explain. I know guys who do this in the northeastern US, and I have done it myself in snowy upstate NY. Is it that much different in Alberta? Dryer maybe? I did mention that supplemental pollen or pollen substitute is also a factor. Dave SC USA (Goldenrod approaching peak) Flower Power: http://pollinator.com/goldenrod.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:49:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies In-Reply-To: <200010051510.LAA05295@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > David's dry sugar method, which I saw demonstrated when I visited him, is > > simple and works well in his area which is pretty far south. Up here in the Great > > White North (and it is white today), it is a prescription for rapid hive > > death. > Allen, please explain. I know guys who do this in the northeastern US, > and I have done it myself in snowy upstate NY. Is it that much different in > Alberta? Dryer maybe? That could be a very big factor, but we also get minus forty weather, sometimes for a week on end, and sometimes accompanied by strong winds. When this happens, temperatures on the outer edge of the cluster are such that the bees barely move. In such conditions bees may need several pounds of feed a week and maybe more when brood is present such as in February when we often get this extreme weather. By then the clusters are smaller and the bees older. The extreme cold means the air is very dry and also that any excess moisture in the hive immediately freezes and becomes unavailable. AFAIK, bees do not store any reserve feed in comb when using fondant or dry sugar, and are very much hand-to-mouth. Any interruption in contact with the feed means death. For us this means dry sugar cannot work reliably. Fondant stands a better chance because it resembles honey in moisture content. Nothing compares to syrup already in the comb and capped. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:50:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: FW: Black October 4; Jack Smith and Don Peer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: kenn.tuckey@gov.ab.ca [mailto:kenn.tuckey@gov.ab.ca] Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 9:40 AM To: kenn.tuckey@agric.gov.ab.ca Subject: Black October 4; Jack Smith and Don Peer Hello Friends: I have just received news that two prominent members of the Canadian Beekeeping industry passed away on Wednesday, October 4, 2000 Mr. Jack Smith of Beaverlodge, Alberta and Dr. Don Peer of Nipawin, Saskatchewan died within hours of each other yesterday. Jack Smith was a dominant force in Canadian and Albertan beekeeping when I first came on the Alberta scene in 1961. He was President of the ABA from 1965 to 1968, and President of the Canadian Honey Council from 1974 to 1976. Jack also filled two periods as Chairman of the Board of the Alberta Honey Producers Co-operative Ltd from 1954 to 1958, and 1965 to 1977. Dr. Don Peer did some pioneering research on the mating of honey bee queens back in the 1950's before moving to Nipawin Saskatchewan to enter commercial beekeeping. Dr. Peer was President of the Canadian Honey Council from 1971 to 1972. Funeral arrangements are pending for both gentlemen. The e-mail is going to all Alberta beekeepers, and some other industry people, for whom I have an address. If you know of others who would be interested please pass the word on. Kenn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 18:23:58 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: VS.: life or death decisions for light colonies In-Reply-To: <20001005143509.GZA9503.fepC.post.tele.dk@SEGATE.SUNET.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Emne: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies > > > > very difficult to simulate them. I combined many colonies last fall > > and I must say that the effort was mostly wasted... > > re-arranging of the brood combs after August can be fatal. That's is also my experience. I think it is best to rearrange what is to rearrange before the feeding take place, and then leave the bees alone for the winter when the last feed are done. > The question of feed is the difficult one, since any hive that has been > starving, will be made up of bees that will prove to be useless > for wintering. That's why it is recommended, to start feeding as soon as the last honey is harvested. When this is done at that time, the bees might be able still to collect a little honey and pollen for the winter. > We feed outside in drums and they will > forage for it well feeding outside the hives might work for you, but here in Denmark it is forbidden to feed the bees in the open, for many reasons, but mostly for robbery ( I personal hate to feed my neighbours bees) and spread of diseases. An other reason is that one can never be sure that the feed goes into the right hives. when I need to feed late I am using a method I once saw in used in a school Beeyard. Take a 10 litre Freezing bag (from the supermarket) fill it with 5 litre of syrup and close it with a rubber band. Place it on the top of the hive and put an empty super around as cover. Now use a secure needle to prick 5 holes in the top of the freezing bag, cover on and leve for a few days. Replace with a new bag if needed. The bees should have at lest 15kg of feed for the winter. This method can also be used in the spring if the need is there for feeding. Don't disturb the bees in the winter. You are likely making more damage than good. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software full revised and bug tested 20-09-2000 supports English, German, Spanish, Brazil Portuguese, Finnish , Swedish and of course Danish too. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk now more easy to get around. e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:52:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: From ARS re mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Press release from ARS. Thought this might interest some. Mites--New Technology Aids Identification ___________________________________________ ARS News Service Agricultural Research Service, USDA Hank Becker, (301) 504-1624, hbecker@ars.usda.gov October 5, 2000 ___________________________________________ The 200-year-old study of mites--the science called acarology--is being transformed. Agricultural Research Service experts on mites are using state-of-the-art technology to study these microscopic insects. Recently, ARS scientists from the Systematic Entomology Laboratory, working with colleagues at the Nematology Laboratory--both at the Henry A. Wallace Beltsville (Md.) Agricultural Research Center--applied newly developed technology, called low- temperature-scanning electron microscopy (LT-SEM), to study mites. Because of their small size--some no bigger than the point of a needle--mites are difficult to study biologically. They have many sensory organs, mouth parts and other body parts so complex that systematists have difficulty comparing those of closely related species. Unlike conventional microscopes, LT-SEM images of a specimen are formed and magnified by electrons passing through a magnetic field that functions as a lens. The images can be displayed, and thus recorded, on a cathode ray tube similar to a TV screen. The LT-SEM was used to obtain, for the first time, clear, three-dimensional images magnified more than 50,000 times. These reveal delicate structural forms and intricate details of intact mites and how they interact with and attack plant and insect hosts. Such information helps scientists to better understand mites' behavior and how different parts of their body structure actually function. It is also used to name and classify them. Often, a lack of detailed information about mites' correct identity, biology and ecology causes serious consequences to U.S. agriculture. More than 6,000 mite species infest nearly every agronomic and horticultural plant important to agriculture. They cause annual economic losses estimated in the billions of dollars from decreased food, fiber and ornamental production. For more details, see the October issue of Agricultural Research, available online at http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct00/form1000.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:44:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: life or death decisions for light colonies In-Reply-To: <200010051620.MAA08131@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We feed outside in drums and they will forage for it > > ...feeding outside the hives might work for you, but here in Denmark it is > forbidden to feed the bees in the open, for many reasons, but mostly for > robbery ( I personal hate to feed my neighbours bees) and spread of > diseases. An other reason is that one can never be sure that the feed goes > into the right hives. Open feeding is illegal in many areas. We are in a relatively isolated area where it is permitted. Nonetheless, caution is necessary, since this is an expert technique that requires beekeeping knowledge and good observation to work well and to ensure safety of people and animals in the vicinity. As for getting the syrup into the hives that need it, one must consider that one of the most important tests used in selecting bees for breeding is the syrup storing test. Bees are rated according to how much syrup they can hoard in a measured time relative to other bees. Bees that will not hoard are best eliminated. There is no sense keeping non-hoarding bees if we are trying to make honey. Another factor is that there is a strong pressure to hoard when the frames near the brood are empty and less pressure when they are full. Therefore, we find that the bees tend to self-limit the amount they take, especially if the feed is provided in two or more deliveries with time for the full hives of bees to get over their hoarding orgy between feedings. If there is a feeding frenzy and an uninterrupted supply, bees will often plug every available space. That is not what we want. When we feed in several deliveries, the slower ones catch up if they are any good. If not, open feeding reveals them as poor hives and they sometimes get robbed out. It is not unusual to find one or two percent of the hives empty after feeding. This makes our job easier. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:32:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Barta, Adrian DATCP" Subject: comb honey question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Glad to see this discussion of comb honey. I'll second those who find it the best way to eat honey. Comb honey on hot biscuits is about as good as it gets. A question for Lloyd Spears or others familiar with Ross Rounds, which I'd ask privately except that others may have the same problem: I tried a Ross Round super this year, hoping to save myself some of the trouble (leakage, waste, frame setup) attendant with cut comb. Setup was easy (once I'd figured it out), the equipment seemed fine, but on the hive, the bees absolutely refused to have anything to do with it. Even crowded down, with no other supers, they just would not work it. I finally put a super of foundation above it, and the bees filled that one promptly. Nothing I could find in the beelist archives shed much light on this problem. I did get the box and frames secondhand from a friend. Next year, I'll try a brand-new super and assembly, in case there is something in this box's history. It does appear that RRounds are the way to go for comb honey production, at least for hive setup and perhaps marketing, if the bees will work them. Just for my curiosity, is there a trick I missed? Thanks, Adrian ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Adrian Barta (608) 224-4592 (office) (608) 516-0506 (cell) WDATCP--Pest Survey and Control adrian.barta@datcp.state.wi.us http://datcp.state.wi.us/static/pestbull/ http://www.soils.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/aws/scabsummary (apple scab information) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 14:19:30 -0500 Reply-To: busybeeacres@discoverynet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: bob harrison Subject: Re: VS.: life or death decisions for light colonies Comments: To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorn wrote: > > That's why it is recommended, to start feeding as soon as the last honey is > harvested. > > Don't disturb the bees in the winter. You are likely making more damage than > good. Hello all, In the interest of all new beekeepers reading the feeding discussion i thought i might add a few comments. Weather is the key factor in feeding. As Allen said capped Honey or syrup is the best when the temperature drops. The new large swarm which started the debate would survive quite nicely at my apiary. I would have put the swarm on a full deep box of sealed honey and pollen. I have many of these from fall queenless hives. The honey from those boxes can only be used for spring increase so why not. Even with a old queen the swarm sounded huge(15 lbs>). Although feeding is recommended as soon as honey is removed and was the correct answer a few weeks ago on the TV game show "Jeopardy". I have to say from my experiance *not allways*. I am leaving on a two week vacation with the money i saved by not feeding early this year. All areas of the world is different and each years weather is different. You need to understand YOUR weather patterns and fall floral sources. Feeding early makes sure your bees will have enough feed for winter but on a large scale feeding costs money. I am proud to say that this year my bees are heavy with winter stores from the fall flows. I have only had to feed very few. Last year i fed one 55 gallon drum of 55% fructose for every ten hives. I used to catch and sell the fall honey but with the arrival of varroa thats not possible with treatments ongoing. My rule of thumb (in the midwest) is to feed when feed is needed. After the first heavy frost most feeding takes place. Contrary to popular belief bees will stay home many times and work those feeders in stead of collecting nector from fall flowers. One problem i have found with heavy feeding too early is the lack of pollen stored. We are expecting the first hard freeze this Saturday. After the freeze we will start fall feeding in earnest as the fall flow will be over. I am sure the methods and advice given by all the beekeepers responding to the post is sound for their areas and good advice. Getting in on the last part of such a long discussion is at times hard to follow so i went back to the original post and reread all posts again. In the midwest i don't have a big problem with opening a hive any time the temperature is warm enough. I have even adjusted a few frames but only when the bees have fully broke a cluster. I am sure the above wouldn't be possible in northern Canada but from Missouri south not a big problem. I will be in Florida next week(DeLand area) and Georgia week after next(Atlanta area). If your club is having a bee meeting and you don't mind a Missouri beekeeper attending direct email me the time and place and i will see if i might be able to attend. I will be leaving within 24 hours from now Oct. 5,2000. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:59:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kevin Gibbs Subject: Re: comb honey question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >. Just for my curiosity, is there a trick I missed? > Thanks, > Adrian briefly If bees start working a box (normal drawn honey frames or your box of foundation) and it is removed and replaced with another box (the RR's) the bees will go straight up into the new box. So stick on a normal honey box and replace with comb honey box when the bees go up and start producing white wax or storing nectar. You almost had your first box of RR's. They are enjoyable too. Kevin Gibbs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:24:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Burch Subject: Re: comb honey question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian As for your question... "Just for my curiosity, is there a trick I missed?" I also used the Ross Round suppers for the first time this year and noted the same condition you were talking about.... It took the longest before my bees would start working my Ross supers..... I would also mention that all four of my supers were new.... Don't know, it could be the plastic frames the bees have a hard time accepting... Once work started it didn't take long for them to fill up and cap off.... Hope I do as well next year.... Paul ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 17:01:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: comb honey question In-Reply-To: <200010051834.OAA13205@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I tried a Ross Round super this year... the bees > absolutely refused to have anything to do with it. Even crowded down, with > no other supers, they just would not work it. I finally put a super of > foundation above it, and the bees filled that one promptly. Nothing I could > find in the beelist archives shed much light on this problem. My guess is that you tried to produce comb honey using a double brood chamber hive. It can be done, but only by experts who also have good luck and good locations. To make comb honey reliably, the brood chamber must be confined to ONE standard box. --- begin comments on comb production --- I always insist on one brood chamber when people ask my advice. An amazing number insist on ignoring this most important single point, then ask "What happened?" when things don't work out. I know people are going to write saying that they have made comb with two, but I'll say right now that they were lucky, not smart, and that they only produced half of what they could have. Lloyd suggested that comb honey is honey at its most natural. I beg to differ. Forcing bees to work in little plastic holes on manufactured foundation is about as natural as producing veal, and like veal production, section comb honey production requires specialized manipulations to overcome the bees natural dislike of section boxes. Once they accept them, they will work happily, but an occasional hive will never accept them and a wise beekeeper simply gives in and gives them back their normal supers. (This is quite rare, but real). There are very simple foolproof methods of making comb such as starting with a package or nuc in a single and just adding an RR super (without any excluder) when the single is wall-to-wall, the weather is settled, a flow starts, and supering time comes. As each super is drawn, the wax making bees will be displaced by honey and when they cover the tops of the frames completely, it is time for another RR box. I've had ten+ RR supers on one hive doing it that way. As the hive gets taller, it is a good idea to add new boxes of foundation on the bottom of the stack near the heat of the brood. Other methods are more difficult and troublesome. Any beginner can make RRs if he follows the above instructions well and has good bees. Many experienced beekeepers simply cannot because they find the prescribed comb manipulations counter-intuitive and change one or two little things in the recipe. Something else to remember that is not obvious to most people is that bees may not cap well until the end of the flow and the days start to get shorter, thus it may be necessary to keep adding boxes, rather than simply removing comb as it is made. For that reason, I recommend three RR supers minimum per hive. Some will need one, some two, some five or more, but it averages to three in my experience. With three, you will be able to keep making comb all season. ---- end comb discussion ---- Otherwise, the only other explanation for your experience that I can think of is that the super -- as you guessed -- had a bad history and possibly very stale foundation. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 02:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: LibBEE@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: comb honey question In-Reply-To: <200010060337.XAA01883@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All, The weather this past summer was the cause of the bees failing to draw out the Ross Round Supers. I also had trouble getting them to draw out about twenty percent of the Pierco frames that I put in My splits and packages. This was the first time in five years that I had trouble getting bees to draw it out. This was a bad year for honey too for some beekeepers, a difference of five miles between beekeepers made a huge difference in how much honey got extracted. The plastic is no problem whatsoever as long as there is some fresh beeswax on it, or wax foundation in the Ross Rounds. Just wait 'till next year!!!! ( That's what We say every year about the Red Sox too!) Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 06:13:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Freezing syrup in winter? In-Reply-To: <200010041928.PAA04845@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question is what happens when the syrup freezes? Properly prepared syrup should never freeze. When fed in the fall, syrup should be as thick as you can make it. That is usually around 67% sugar by weight or volume (doesn't matter which). Sugar is a natural anti-freeze. Cold syrup will get pretty thick, though. Remember the expression "like molasses in January"? (But never feed molasses to bees, it is toxic to them). To make syrup this thick, hot water must be used. The heat should be applied in advance, since direct heat on the bottom of a vessel containing sugar can cause carmelization which can be fatal to confined bees. Just mix in a much sugar as you can and let the syrup settle. Then pour off the syrup to use for feed and use any settled sugar for the next batch. Having said that, though I sometimes notice a sheet of ice on top of drums of syrup sitting outside. Rainwater or snow melt floats on syrup, being lighter, and will make a sheet of ice. This is a problem, since, even after it melts, the water conceals the syrup from foraging bees, and unless they are gathering water and thus reveal the syrup, they may not find it. allen --- A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:11:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Honey Storage, Processing, and Bottling I'm pretty new at this and need some basic info about what type of containers are best for storage, processing, and bottling of honey (plastic, stainless steel, metal with food safe coating, glass, other?...). I also need some good sources for purchases. Thanks for your help. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:53:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb Honey in Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to emphasize two points that Allen Dick just made in reply to a question concerning why bees would not work the Ross Round super and to also provide a different opinion on when to super. The two points: 1. The single most common mistake made by beginners is to try to produce Ross Rounds (or any kind of comb honey) over two deeps. In most cases, the bees will proceed to fill the top deep with honey, forcing the brood down, and by the time that is done the flow will be over! The brood nest needs to be restricted to one deep or, as I do, one deep and a medium. 2. The next most common mistake is to use a queen excluder. 90% or more of the time the queen will not lay in a Ross Round super, and even when she does it is usually limited to a few drone cells around the bottom edge of a few sections. Allen suggested starting to super when signs of comb building are evident. I think this is a technique best left to those, like Allen, who are truly expert. Around here, the first flow of consequence starts on June 1 with black locust. I get my supers on (3 Ross Round supers to a hive) no later than May 1, which is a long time before comb building starts! This allows for the very occasional good flow from dandelion, honeysuckle, wild cherry, etc. I think the extra room, even when not used, also retards the swarming tendency. Finally, Allen failed to mention the importance of using a new queen. Several studies have confirmed that new queens are much less likely to swarm than one that has overwintered. As far as I know, all commercial producers of comb honey rely on current year queens and hobbyists should also. Now is not too early to get in orders for April, 2001 queens! Lloyd Mailto: Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Section Comb Honey Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been staying out of the comb honey discussions, mainly because it's deja vu all over again. The subject is covered extensively in the archives, I wrote a lot of it myself. Having said that, there are some new threads that have been mentioned this time around that heretofore (to my recollection) have not been mentioned. Allen mentioned comb production starting from a package or nuc. I've often thought the technique would work, leaving the bees no choice other that to utilize the space in a single deep for brooding and forcing them to expand into a section super for honey storage. Of course there's the issue of what to do with the single deep after section season is over. I assume unite it with another colony. Allen? I don't recall the package/nuc method beind endorsed in Taylor's book and Killion only touts the "Killion method". The closest to the package/nuc method I've read and practiced is the shook swarming method which Taylor writes about, but is not an original idea. I used to think it was his method until I read the writings of beekeepers who preceeded him. Shook swarming is an old method most recently written about by Taylor. I have to disagree with Lloyd's comments about queen excluders being a common mistake. I always use queen excluders on my comb production hives. I started with Killion's book. Killion insists on queen excluders as well as slatted racks. Lloyd dismisses both. The year I omitted queen excluders I had to cull many sections due to drone brood that was raised in the sections (as Lloyd described), and this problem was with many hives. I never repeated the experiment, one year's setback was sufficient to convince this beekeeper to stick with the queen excluders, following Killion's advice. And I always use slatted racks. You can't argue with success. A few words about the Killion method. It's a LOT of work. It required multiple shake downs of a hive, requeening a hive, and there are ample opportunities for things to go awry (lots in the archives). But his method produces BY FAR the best sections I've ever produced. Furthermore, following his techniques forces a beekeeper to get up close and personal, down and dirty, INTIMATE with their bees. The year I first practiced the Killion method was the year I ceased being a beehaver and became a beekeeper. And speaking of George, I have to disagree with his statement that Carniolans are not good for comb production. I'll agree with Lloyd on this one. I produce beautiful sections (EAS Blue Ribbon winners!) using New World Carniolnas, crowded down into single deeps without swarming. Lloyd wrote, "Allen suggested starting to super when signs of comb building are evident. I think this is a technique best left to those, like Allen, who are truly expert." I agree. I know of other beekeepers who will ONLY produce comb honey in this manner, over double deep and supered colonies. Considering other methods too much work, they simply wait and judge hives that are obviously (to them) producing to such a degree that the bees will unquestioningly accept a section super and fill it with no problems. But it takes an expert evaluation to know when the conditions are right. Alan mentioned perhaps bees will shun section supers if the foundation is stale. I wonder how old is stale. Advised by Lloyd, I started this year to prepare my section supers for reuse when I harvest the current crop. It cuts down on labor to only handle the supers once. But this means that my "ready for the bees" section supers, foundation exposed, will be stored until next spring. If I don't use them all next year some might possibly be stored for over 20 months. Might I be concerned about the foundation getting stale in that time frame? Is there anything I can do to lessen that concern? In summary (as I summarized in the archives), buy the book! Taylor's book (_The_New_Comb_Honey_)is good, Killion's book (_Honey_in_the_Comb_) is superb! It includes a section on queen rearing which is of use to EVERY beekeeper even if you have no intention of ever production section comb. Note that the Killion method does not require that you raise your own queen (although he highly recommends rigorous record keeping and a breeding program for optimal results). However, new queens (a common thread to all comb section production methods) can be purchased from reliable queen breeders. Follow Killion's method for a season. You will do a lot of work, you may make make mistakes, if you don't you'll produce beautiful sections, and most importantly, you will make a quantum leap in your beekeeping skills. This is one topic where I feel BEE-L advice is lacking. You will pick up sound bites here, tips and advice. You will be TAUGHT reading Killion's book. I think it's in the $15 ballpark. The return on your investment will be well worth it. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:41:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Comb Honey in Ross Rounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Ross Rounds are the finest comb honey. I am using mostly plastic and the comb was a problem. I enjoy it and produce it by cutting a plastic frame. Leaving the plastic box container (cutter size) open under the 2 inch of plastic. I wax in the plastic to hold it in tight. Normally I put this frame on the edges of the hive, one on each side during flow. I don't cut the top drawn honey from the frame. Draw time is reduced. If I treated the box with chemicals before I do not get the cut comb from that hive. I also use this frame to get queen cells if put inside the brood area. Either grafted or left naturally in a queenless hive. The problem with this system it is not sealed on the edges, may leak honey from the container (if not in a quart jar) during transporting, and it will not bring the price of the Ross comb honey. Michael Housel microscope on observation beehive research ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:38:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Section Comb Honey Production In-Reply-To: <200010061942.PAA25488@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen mentioned comb production starting from a package or nuc.... > Of course there's the issue of what to do with the single deep after > section season is over. I assume unite it with another colony. Allen? Nope, just add another standard brood chamber and feed it for winter. > I don't recall the package/nuc method being > endorsed in Taylor's book and Killion only touts the "Killion method". The > closest to the package/nuc method I've read and practiced is the shook > swarming method which Taylor writes about... Some write books, and some produce comb honey. I made my living for years from producing Ross Rounds. I don't write books (other than my diary). I merely produced hundreds of thousands of round combs in an area not known for big crops using the minimum of resources to produce the maximum of profit. > I have to disagree with Lloyd's comments about queen excluders being a > common mistake... The year I omitted queen excluders I had to cull many > sections due to drone brood... We hardly *ever* saw that happen, and when we did find any drone brood, it was only a few cells in one or two combs in one super out of hundreds. We merely cut out those few cells and gave the combs back to the bees again to repair. They were always then filled with white comb and honey and capped perfectly. > A few words about the Killion method. It's a LOT of work... Does it pay? Making the biggest crop does not always produce the best profit. If you only have a few hives and lots of time, these things are practical, but if you are running hundreds of hives on comb and relying on hired help in these modern days, simple is good. > Lloyd wrote, "Allen suggested starting to super when signs of comb building > are evident. Actually, I put the super on when the hive gets to needing it if the flow is immanent. I don't wait until there is pressure on the hive. When I said wall-to-wall, I guess I should have said on a hot day. Better to give the first super too early than a little late. > Alan mentioned perhaps bees will shun section supers if the foundation is > stale. I wonder how old is stale. Advised by Lloyd, I started this year to > prepare my section supers for reuse when I harvest the current crop. It > cuts down on labor to only handle the supers once. No worries. We did that all the time and it works if you store them covered in a decent environment. I was meaning that maybe the material in question there was stored someplace hot, chemical or stinky or that it was dried out to the point where it was brittle. > In summary (as I summarized in the archives), buy the book! Probably good advice, but don't think you can not do a good job without any trouble or grief just by reading the archives and following my simple system. You may not become a Master Beekeeper or get quite as much comb as those who go the extra mile, but you will get enough good combs to satisfy most people and spend very little time, muscle, or brainpower doing so. I'd write a book about comb honey, but making good comb is so simple the way I do it that it would be a very thin book. However you can read the book I am writing at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 09:54:24 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The easiest, cheapest and best way to get comb honey is to use starter strips (2.5cm, 1") on normal frames and then produce "cut comb". Easiest because the bees start drawing without any trouble in a full size super frame, low cost because one sheet of thin foundation does 4 or 5 frames and best because the bees can produce thinner mid-rib than any man made foundation so it's more pleasant to eat. I agree absolutely about ONLY using one deepbrood chamber and it helps if there are plenty of bees in it. When we go to the heather (beginning Sept here in Scotland) we like to see bees hanging out of the entrance due to lack of space. Next easiest I've found Ross rounds - the bees fill a small section which has no corners much more completely than the small square sections (10cm x 10cm - 4" x 4") usually used here in the UK. We always produce cut comb honey on the heather because it's thixotropic and difficult to extract, although it never crystallises. However cut comb would be messy with some of the thinner honeys and the cut section would have to be laid on a drip grid prior to packaging. The heather crop has been a disaster here in Scotland due to sustained wet weather. Alan Riach Bathgate-Edinburgh