From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:38 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05187 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00267 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00267@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:29 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0011B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 101731 Lines: 2273 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:04:40 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Sugar syrup recipe proportions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sugar in the UK is now sold in 1 kilogram bags (2.204 Lbs) and for those who like to mix their units a good winter mix is a pint of water to a kilo of sugar (UK pint of course).We're going metric inch by inch over here. Alan Riach Edinburgh, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:00:44 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wim de Jong Subject: creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI ALL ! >Could aney member out there enlighten me=20 on a form of flavoring honey or creamed honey? >I would think this is powder form or liquid? >aney suggestion on product and availabilty? =20 WIM AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:18:48 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony N Morgan Organization: Sor-Trondelag College, Division of Electronic Engineering Subject: Re: Sugar syrup recipe proportions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach wrote: > > Sugar in the UK is now sold in 1 kilogram bags (2.204 Lbs) and for those > who like to mix their units a good winter mix is a pint of water to a > kilo of sugar (UK pint of course).We're going metric inch by inch over > here. > Alan Riach > Edinburgh, Scotland To go the whole hog and metrify weight and volume: we use 0.6 litre water per kilo of sugar -- actually 3 litres per 5kg and multiples thereof. This is marginaly more dilution than the mix given by Alan. 1 pint UK = 0.56825 litre -- Anthony N Morgan, Trondheim, Norway ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:25:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Re: Whitewashed and returned... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim wrote: << ...every experienced beekeeper has observed this behavior in sawdust piles and bird feeders. >> And John Mosko wrote: <> and <> Thanks Dave. Did Mosko say whether this product is classified as a pesticide? If so, this substance will have to go through the same EPA approval process that any other pesticide does. A pesticide, by definition, is toxic to life. Even the organic pesticides are designed to kill something. That's why, by law (I'm going from memory here since my reference material is in storage), it's illegal for an applicator to advertise in the yellow pages that they use "safe" pesticides. Since this product is more of a deterrent, how is it classified? Kim is referring to observations of honey bees gathering a substance that is nowhere near an open bloom. Why they do this is not known or has been studied scientifically (that I am aware of), but it is theorized that it may have something to do with the similar size of the particles to pollen. Hence, the speculation that this behavior might carry over to clay particles. Also, while the product may not be sprayed during bloom, as is sometimes the case in apple orchard pesticide kills, it may drift onto other blooming flowers on the floor of the orchard. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:29:42 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Looking for a MO farmer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A colleague of mine with Oregon Public Broadcasting is looking for "a farmer between Columbia and St Louis who's got something to say about GMO crops." Anybody who has a lead, please reply to me off-list. Thanks, John Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:42:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: Knapweed allelopathy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From time to time, one hears postulations that honey bees make a major contribution to the problem of invasive weeds in this country. This theory may be a factor for some communities and government organizations in how they regulate beekeeping activities. Here's some good science to further debunk such theories. >From an environmental media listserv: NEW LEAD ON HOW INVASIVE KNAPWEED SPREADS A study in the Oct. 20 2000 issue of Science says that diffuse knapweed (a notoriously invasive weed spreading in at least 23 states in the West, Midwest, and Northeast) is thriving partly because its roots secrete chemicals that stifle competing plants -- a process called "allelopathy." However, this form of chemical warfare doesn't work on nearly identical plants from the weed's native Eurasian habitat. ("Invasive Plants Versus Their New and Old Neighbors: A Mechanism for Exotic Invasion," pgs. 421 and 521. Available online by subscription: http://www.sciencemag.org.) A new application of an old research technique helped scientists discover the tricks of diffuse knapweed. Scientists are investigating the chemicals that this weed secretes. The study's authors are researching other knapweeds and leafy spurge for similar actions. They have not proposed any weed control strategies that might take advantage of their discovery. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:37:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Whitewashed and returned... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, JMitc1014 asks about EPA registration of Surround Crop Protectant. It is approved by the EPA - in the article about it on the USDA website this was discussed I seem to recall EPA gave it an exemption from registration or something similar either way it is legally on the market at present. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:39:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Whitewashed and returned... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Blane White wrote: > ... I seem to recall EPA gave it > an exemption from registration or something similar either > way it is legally on the market at present. I believe this was because it is a barrier that keeps bugs out rather than a substance intended to kill insects. It would be akin to row cover mesh which is not an insecticide. /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:59:16 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pdillon Subject: Latest news on "GAUCHO" - translation into english at last MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Regarding the latest info on "GAUCHO" and problems that are now cropping up in many areas and countries, Gilles Ratia(Site owner of "beekeeping. com", also going under the name of "apiservices.com" has just sent me a mail stating the translation regarding: " The General conclusions of Rapport n° 3 " - (the latest research results from Drs. Marc Colin and Bonmatin) has just been placed onto: http://www.beekeeping.com/index_us.htm click on to "Gaucho - Last info from Research institutes in France" - to be found in the info. section on the first page. It is there - I' ve checked! Other translations into English are in the pipe line, but it takes time, sorry. Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 22:10:25 -0500 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Sugar syrup recipe proportions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, if l remember correctly, is not 1 litre of water weighing 1 kilogram?? If so, then a 2 to 1 syrup mix requires 1 kg. of water (1 litre) to 2 kgs. of sugar. Correct me if l am wrong, please. When l used to mix syrup, l would take 15 x 40kg. sacks of sugar (600kgs) and mix that with 300 litres of water, therefore 2 to 1. Of course, now l am much to lazy to mix syrup, and order syrup ready mixed. This year l purchased six tonnes of fructose and hope that the bees pass the cold Canadian winter in good form. It would appear that the internet has changed communication but not weights and measures.Are there still people out there weighing sugar in lbs., stones,quarters and hundredweights?? Peter. > Sugar in the UK is now sold in 1 kilogram bags (2.204 Lbs) and for those > who like to mix their units a good winter mix is a pint of water to a > kilo of sugar (UK pint of course).We're going metric inch by inch over > here. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:52:15 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: no yearly treatments for AFB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > I would be very grateful if they would share some knowledge other than > anecdotal. For once, I am the one that advises you to check the archives gentlemen. I reported on the work done in Australia and informed you of a brochure on EFB that is available from the Australasian Beekeeper Magazine - Bob Guilliford compiled the brochure. Thanks to T & M Weatherhead for providing me with his contact details. Phone 612 49327244 fax 612 49327621 for the AB magazine and phone/fax 612 67656179 for Bob's personal number. Neither are on email. Go and get it mate. Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:53:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > I remain astonished that this question of fact is so hard to get answered. Our astonishment at Mr Mann's vehemence without completely reading the posting far surpasses anything he could experience. His lack of moderation also leaves much to be desired. This is not the first time that South African contributers have been answered in this vein. To the extent that SA scientists (and perhaps others) now shun this DG. Perhaps "Informed Discussion" does not describe what is happening here. The point was simply this: even with decades of having imported and used beeswax foundation (unradurised) out of the USA, SA bees have never been diagnosed as having AFB. Thank you. Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:54:19 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Selling honey on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few months ago I signed up for a notification list at www.respond.com. This list allows a buyer to request information on products based on category. One of the categories is honey. To date there have been a number of requests but none in my area of the country. For example one came in today for 1 and 2 pound jars in the NY state area. I have also seen requests for comb honey in the last few weeks. I offer this information up so that others who may be interested in subscribing to such a service can go over and check it out. - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:14:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddy(ENL)" Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Robert Mann wrote: > I remain astonished that this question of fact is so hard to get answered. Robert Post answered: Our astonishment ... does not describe what is happening here. The point was simply this: even with decades of having imported and used beeswax foundation (unradurised) out of the USA, SA bees have never been diagnosed as having AFB. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------ I would like to clear up some points which maybe pertinent to the situation. All bee products and 2nd hand equipment was at one time banned. Since 1991 this law has been rescinded. The Agricultural law now requires all bee produce and 2nd hand equip is irradiated on entry to South Africa. However, many who know how to circumvent the law have continued to bring these things through without "nuking" them. Others just use loop holes. I personally am not happy with bee produce being irradiated, as I do not know what changes take place or residual contamination is left in food. All the articles I've ever read have not been convincing. Our wax foundation suppliers have been importing or using imported beeswax for many years. Much of this wax was never irradiated. It is unknown whether the wax has had Bacillus spores present in it or not. Some of us have speculated that the wax has been contaminated. In 1996 Prof. Wolfgang Ritter from Germany undertook tests for someone here in South Africa. He found bacillus larva in the samples. This caused a dispute between our local scientists, but personal chats with Wolfgang indicate that he believed his results were correct. Emanating from the above, there are a few of us who speculate that our bees are AFB tolerant. I hesitated in writing this, but was encouraged by an interested party, because people are reckless and I don't want anyone trying to find out by deliberately feeding some Bacillus to our local bees to find out. Maybe food for thought Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:33:59 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB In-Reply-To: <200011092259.RAA08880@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, I seem to have unwittingly provoked an International Incident. Nothing was further from my mind. I am surprised, and disappointed, at the reaction. Perhaps it will help to allay misapprehensions, and to get the discussion of AFB back on a scientific track, if I explain. >Robert Post wrote: > >Our astonishment at Mr Mann's vehemence without completely reading the >posting far >surpasses anything he could experience. > His lack of moderation also leaves much to >be desired. Who are the plural accusers? I wasn't vehement; nor do I see anything immoderate in what I wrote. I was only pointing out some possible motives (such as I have observed operating in comparable controversies); and have received direct since my post some detailed comments - which I am not at liberty to disclose - from S.A. supporting my commentary on the possible role of political interference in the matter we are discussing. >This is not the first time that South African contributers have been >answered in this vein. To the extent that SA scientists (and perhaps >others) now >shun this DG. Perhaps "Informed Discussion" does not describe what is >happening >here. Others will be even more puzzled than I am at this vague accusation. Many will be unaware that my country was relatively active against the apartheid regime which held sway in S.A. and - horror of horrors - denied us proper Rugby Union contests. If we helped thru boycotts to end the apartheid regime, I make no apology. But I do not expect such political background to affect this list. It certainly doesn't affect my participation. Now back to the science please. >The point was simply this: even with decades of having imported and used >beeswax >foundation (unradurised) out of the USA, SA bees have never been diagnosed as >having AFB. This approach, from sheer epidemiological fact, may seem conclusive or at least very helpful. To the extent that I gave it too litle weight, without explanation, I apologise. Let me now explain what I was after. I have campaigned publicly for 3 decades against allowing unexamined hazards and waiting for the public to complain after a disease or poisoning has become endemic. I have advocated instead the prior examination of the processes that may cause harm, and control if necessary. To that end, I expected that wax foundation would be directly examined for viable AFB - by suitable microscopy, and by suitable attempts to culture microbes from the fndn. I had hoped some expert would tell us of the results of such direct scrutiny. I am sorry I failed to make this clear when I made my first request weeks ago for info on this topic, and when I lately remarked >> I remain astonished that this question of fact is so hard to get answered. I do not see how anyone in S.A. can have taken offence at anything from me; but if they have, I regret that. I have been involved with S.A. citizens, both white and non-white, in scientific writing and even in what might be interpreted as political activity. I am startled & dismayed at Mr Post's outburst. I hope any misunderstanding is now cleared up. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:11:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Power lines and swarming In-Reply-To: <200011101445.JAA29926@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Does anyone have any information about or experience with high-tension power lines causing bees to swarm? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:34:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Power lines and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a very controversial subject. Scientists have shown that wild bees build comb parallel to the magnetic resonance of the earth; and that a beekeeper can badly alter the von Frisch waggle dance of direction to a nectar source simply by placing a magnet on one side of a hive. An English man, Pickard, wrote several articles about magnetism and electric fields about 20-25 years ago. In his articles, he stated that it was possible for high voltage electric wires to create a magnetic field near a bee colony to induce them to swarm, and also to become very aggressive. In past years, I have placed migratory colonies on a high voltage land right-a-way right under the wires carrying 33,000 volts and I have not noticed any unusual effects compared to my other colonies that were not near wires. I have heard many stories about bees near high voltage wires for many years and these were told by some decent beekeepers (but not scientists), so I have never had much concern about it. I am a retired scientist and I have never noted any problems, but I confess, I have never made a scientific study to see if there was truly a problem. The fact is: High voltage lines under some set of circumstances may create enough magnetic field to change the natural behavior of a nearby colony of bees, whereas some other group of high voltage wires might not have any effect on a colony of bees. Like so many other things, bee research has had so many major problems with disease, mites, and now small hive beetles, there just is not time and particularly MONEY to investigate all these other things. If you can, why not experiment yourself next spring. Start up 4 new colonies, and place 2 under the high voltage wires and the other 2 colonies several hundred yards away, and determine the differences yourself and REPORT what you find. I hope that I have helped. George Imirie, EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Beginning my 69th season with bees ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:35:09 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Power lines and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The wild hives on the outside of the tree limbs have more burl comb if they are east west in formation. The hives that are built north south don't seem to have burl wax comb. The sun light may have as much to do with this in theory as the electrical. The light will effect with direct heat on brood. This doesn't have any effect inside a hive box. Do you have a copy of the Pichard work or where? l\ l_\ ___ l l l / Michael Housel l l l / l__l l/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:43:00 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Power lines and swarming In-Reply-To: <200011101637.LAA03544@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200011101637.LAA03544@listserv.albany.edu>, CAIR writes >Does anyone have any information about or experience with high-tension >power lines causing bees to swarm? I think if you search the archives you will find this is a subject which has been covered several times before. All I can add, and have done so before, is that we are in an area with many power lines criss crossing the landscape and quite often we place loads of hives near, or even directly under, HT power lines. These are not the small few thousand volt type which we do not even pay any attention to, but the big stuff, up to 330,000V. No difference whatsoever in any aspect of their behaviour. For many years one of our best locations has been within the footprint of a very large junction pylon. This is on a live 330,000V line, and the pylon is big enough to drive our vehicle through the bottom and still fit 50 colonies in with more scattered outside. It is the only area of unused ground adjacent to the crops on the farm in question so we had to use it, and have been doing so now for nearly 20 years now. It is one of our very best locations, with no accentuated aggression, swarming or anything else untoward. Combs are drawn perfectly normally. I don't suppose this helps much, as some people have very entrenched beliefs (even fears and phobias) about such things. Bees, fortunately, are not familiar with many of the subjects that exercise our minds and just get on with it wherever they find conditions favourable. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:59:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: High Voltage Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been much discussion about the effect of high voltage lines on all sorts of organisms, humans and farm animals as well as bees, but no hard evidence of a direct damage mechanism. Because of the fast fall off in field strength with distance it is perhaps unlikely that there are direct magnetic or electric field effects. However the possibility of indirect effects are perhaps more possible. There has been some research carried out in the UK (I think at Bristol Univ.-forgive me if I've got the wrong institution), on the effects of the electrostatic fields under power lines in concentrating polution particles. The idea is that if a power line is situated downwind from e.g. a major roadway, then the field would concentrate the pollution particles to the extent that any "air breathing " organism in the vicinity would get an enriched pollution ingestion. Presumably this would affect bees as much as any other animal, and might lead to a general "feeling of swarminess" Alan Riach Edinburgh, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 07:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since we are talking about foundation as a repository of AFB spores and that no AFB has been found in SA using foundation from outside the country, is there something else at work here? Does the process that converts used wax to foundation kill off the AFB? I am sure that some AFB "infected" wax makes its way to the processors, but, even in the US it does not appear to cause outbreaks of AFB. Bees will chew up foundation, so it seems that if there were AFB in the foundation after processing, it would be cropping up all over. Especially since it would be randomly distributed in large quantities of wax and therefor in foundation sold to hundreds of customers. And it takes less than 25 or so spores to start the cycle, but millions are created with every dead bee. Which translates to a lot of spores in very little wax. Anyone know the answer? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:00:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Stevens Subject: Honey Board Ammendment defeated MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the vote on the National Honey Board referendum going down to a resounding defeat, it is time for some hard soul searching. Only 30 % of the beekeepers voted for it. Weighted according to honey, 51% of the vote was for it. However, the majority of the honey-weighted votes came from the packers. Translation: the packers wanted the programs; the beekeepers didn't. What happened? Did everyone, as is so often true in a democracy, simply vote in his or her true self interest. Or, did the beekeepers simply not understand what their true self interest was. Our current American Beekeeper Federation president insisted in a speech at the convention that: "Beekeepers need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty-first century." The implication of his statement is that the 70% of beekeepers who voted against the ammendment simply were too backward and uninformed to vote in their self-interest. I doubt it! Just as in our current national political debacle, it is more likely that our leadership has failed to listen and failed to lead. What happens next? As I understand it. the USDA will have another vote to determine whether the Honey Board as it is now constitituted should or should not be terminated. Because it is written into the Board's charter that the Honey Board cannot promote American honey, the beekeepers will almost certainly vote to terminate it. The national leadership of the American Beekeeping Federation shoud accept the inevitabillity of this termination and begin again. The national leadership has an opportunity, as a consequence of this democratic expression of opinion, to bring about about badly needed change in our industry. But, the old animosities and the injured egos will have to be set aside for the good of the industry. Three steps need to be taken: Step 1: The current leadership of the American Bee Federation should resign immediately. The new leadership should immediately negotiate with the American Honey Producers to join into one national beekeepers's organization. Step2: This new National organization should support wholeheartedly the anti-dumping lawsuits against Argentina and China initiated by the Sioux Honey Association and the American Honey Producers. Step 3: Planning should begin as soon as possible for a new Honey Promotion Board promoting American honey to take the place of the old one when it is terminated. Please feel free to forward these suggestions and any suggestions you might have to any beekeeper who you think may be interested. Probably, most of you who are reading this will think it is "pie in the sky" thinking and will never happen, but, who knows, maybe there is a leader out there who will come to the fore and make it happen. Bee forever optomistic Bob Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:26:29 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB In-Reply-To: <200011111317.IAA04459@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: >Does the process that converts used wax to foundation kill off the AFB? This is what I was hoping to get at. Assuming for the sake of argument that viable AFB spores can occur in wax, a suitable combination of temperature and time will presumably kill them before the wax is rolled into fndn. But we won't know what T-t to use unless measurements are made along the lines I've pointed out. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:26:27 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees In-Reply-To: <200011111233.HAA04063@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alan Riach wrote: >There has been much discussion about the effect of high voltage lines on >all sorts of organisms, humans and farm animals as well as bees, but no >hard evidence of a direct damage mechanism. I may be reading too much in, but I do hope this statement isn't meant to imply that we shouldn't believe there's any effect until we have a good hypothesis for its mechanism. There are many phenomena whose mechanisms we don't (yet) understand much if at all, but which are real effects nonetheless. It has become distressingly common among scientists this past half-century to say 'we have no mechanism for how this proposed effect might work, so we disbelieve that it could work'. Acupuncture has been an example. This pattern of reasoning is an outrage against the scientific method, but as I say it has become awfully common. Beekeepers of all people should be against this type of prejudice: many phenomena in the life of the bee are unexplained but are certainly real. > Because of the fast fall off >in field strength with distance One shouldn't assume this falloff is monotonic. A paper in Wireless World a decade ago discussed how the shape of the field gradient could focus cosmic rays (highly ionizing radiation, which of course the actual 50Hz or 60 Hz mains fields are not) and offered evidence (from big Geiger counters) that it is so. >However the possibility of indirect effects are perhaps more possible. > >There has been some research carried out in the UK (I think at Bristol >Univ.-forgive me if I've got the wrong institution), on the effects of >the electrostatic fields under power lines in concentrating polution >particles. This is a parallel hypothesis. Both could be true. But the primary question is whether there are biological effects. *How* they might work is a secondary question. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:33:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: high voltage power lines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I cannot speak to whether bees are bothered by them or not, but it should be understood that the voltage (electrical pressure) of power lines has little to do with the magnetic field generated thereby. It is the current (flow) that induces the magnetic field. Since the group of wires form a circuit with current flowing in both directions, the magnetic field at any reasonable distance cancels out. Being closer to one wire than the other might result in a small net field. Directly below the center of the group of wires there will be little net field. Since larger spacings tend to be used with higher voltages, the fields will tend to take a larger distance to be cancelled on such lines. There is also an electrostatic field that IS proportional to voltage. It also tends to be cancelled out amongst the wires of the circuit. Bee keeper (and presenter of seminars on transmission lines) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:36:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: high voltage power lines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would worry more about the line clearing crews under the high tension lines spraying herbicide or bush hogging than the electrical field. One thing to consider is bears as the brush under the hi tension lines is a bears highway as they reclaim areas they were previously gone from. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:02:10 -0600 Reply-To: a-klein@bethel.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Amy Klein Subject: space required for small colony of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in the city and have a small, residential back yard. I'd like to have a small beehive mostly as a hobby and to help with my garden (both flowers and vegetable). Can anyone give advice as to whether or not a city "lot" is going to be too small for bees? Is a "small colony" self-sustaining? Any input is greatly appreciated. Amy Klein ~~~~~~~ Business Instructor & Administrative Computer Center User Services Coordinator Bethel College and Seminary St Paul, MN 55418 651.638.6542 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 08:55:10 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andi Sadapotto Subject: formic acid gel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know where can I buy formic acid gel ? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees In-Reply-To: <200011112110.QAA08764@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Because of the fast fall off > >in field strength with distance > > One shouldn't assume this falloff is monotonic. A paper in > Wireless World a decade ago discussed how the shape of the > field gradient > could focus cosmic rays (highly ionizing radiation, which of > course the > actual 50Hz or 60 Hz mains fields are not) and offered > evidence (from big > Geiger counters) that it is so. The electromagnetic energy from the power lines will drop very fast (square of the distance? wish I still had my books). Some basic information on radiated waves is here: http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/afwa/U2.htm http://hawkins.pair.com/eRadiation.html http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/whyantradiates.html There could be other factors that could cause an increase in the amount of energy directed on one direction (a lobe in the field) such as a mass of metal near the hives. More energy can also be released at a higher frequency when insulators are arcing. One way to detect this (when it gets real bad you can hear it) is with an AM radio tuned to a weak station. A bad leak will drown out all stations and make life miserable for local ham radio operators....... - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 06:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > > Alan Riach wrote: > >There has been much discussion about the effect of high voltage > lines on > >all sorts of organisms, humans and farm animals as well as bees, but no > >hard evidence of a direct damage mechanism. > > I may be reading too much in, but I do hope this statement isn't > meant to imply that we shouldn't believe there's any effect until we have a > good hypothesis for its mechanism. There is no effect. That is what is implied. I am not sure what you are implying but I assume that it is we should not think all is OK when all is OK because it may not be. This is philosophy, not science. And pardon the double negative. The issue of bees and power lines has come up often in this group and each time the observation is that the lines themselves are not a problem. Power company spraying, bears, vandals and other things are. And each time it comes up, there is an assumption that it must be bad for the bees. As far as mechanism, electricity has been with us for quite some time, as have strong electromagnetic fields and people working in close proximity to them. So the data is available. And concentrating cosmic rays and pollution particles says little since it does not tell us how much, such as one percent or 5,000 percent, compared to what is harmful- if it even does. You are not talking about a coil generating a strong magnetic field but relatively straight parallel wires carrying AC which would have some EMF but would tend to interact and cancel out. But I will leave the truth of that, since it is only my guess, to power line experts. Just curious, but what is the difference between a big Geiger counter and a little one? My guess is one measures big cosmic waves and the other little cosmic waves. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME Late breaking news: The new Florida Ballot will come with BINGO written over the top. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:40:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: formic acid gel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Formic Acid gel, APICURE, was formulated by Bob Stevens of BETTERBEE, Inc in Greenwich, N. Y., but was temporarily removed from the market because of leaking packages. We all hope that this problem will be corrected quickly. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:57:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: formic acid gel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The packaging leaked in shipment and storage. When used as directed the package fell apart when it became time to remove and dumped remnants down between the frames. If the packaging remains similar it may be wise to fold a piece of window screen around them so they can be removed crumbs and all. Come spring I will have a better assessment of their efficacy. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:20:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Small city lot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amy asks about keeping bees on a small city lot and whether a hive can be self-sustaining. You certainly can keep bees on a small city lot, hundreds do so, and they are even kept on top of apartment buildings! What you most have to think of is neighbors. My advice is: 1. Somehow screen or hide them so that they are not in constant view of the neighbors. 2. Tell the neighbors you have them, but don't make a special trip out of it. Tell them while you are working in the yard, etc. If the bees have been there a couple of months before you get around to telling the neighbors...all the better, as you can them tell them that and they can see they are no threat. 3. Give the neighbors some honey! 4. Don't dress up like you are on a space walk when going into the hive. Wear a veil, long sleeves, and (if necessary) gloves. Shorts are good! Your most likely problem will not be the hive being self-sustaining, but keeping it from swarming because it is over-crowded! Produce comb honey. It requires a lot of effort on the part of the bees, and doesn't involve any expensive equipment to extract the honey from the comb. Brushy Mountain Bee Farm sells a hive especially designed to look good in a small garden, and will also sell the comb honey equipment. 800-233-7929. Hope this helps. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 19:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: rebonney@javanet.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Bonney Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In 1990 I came across the following information in Apicultural Abstracts. I don't remember now which issue. At that time I published it in my newsletter The Aware Beekeeper. I present it her for your collective evaluation. Dick Bonney > BEES AND HIGH VOLTAGE > > Over the years there have been reports of adverse effects on mammals (including > humans) from being housed or pastured under high voltage electric lines. Now a > paper from Russia, "Ethological and physiological anomalies in honeybees caused > by the action of high-voltage line electric fields", by E.K. Es'kov and N.I. Bragin, > reports that there are adverse effects on bees. The paper is written in Russian but > fortunately there is an English abstract, as follows: > > Effects of electric fields (industrial frequencies) on honey bees were studied in the > laboratory and under a high-voltage electric line (500 kv). Regulation of the brood > nest microclimate was disturbed in exposed colonies and viability of embryos, larvae > and adults was reduced. (Other adverse effects were noted.) Honey production was > reduced. The effects were eliminated by moving the bees to a site at least 50 meters > from the line, or by placing them under trees, or by covering hive tops with a layer of > dirt. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:04:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Curtis Crowell Subject: Re: weak fall hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I corrected my syrup dilution to feed 2:1 (by weight, 2 parts sugar to one part water) and am using division board feeders. If the hives are not completely "stocked" for winter, I assume I can leave the feeders in until spring, filling them up as weather permits. It occurred to me that I might also combine weak hives, placing an Imrie shim between the two to conserve heat. This causes two problems: 1- the feeder in the lower box is inaccessible w/o removing the upper, and 2- if I have field bees flying (not too many at this late date), and combine two adjacant hives, the bees might not find their way home. the use of the shim appeals to me because both queens are young, and I would like to maintain both colonies. /Curtis Crowell Hightstown, New Jersey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 18:43:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Power lines and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:11:04 -0500 CAIR writes: > Does anyone have any information about or experience with > high-tension > power lines causing bees to swarm? I've heard this question before and even asked it myself just two weeks ago during the Open House/Field Day at the USDA Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Research Laboratory in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. The 'Bee Lab' sits next to a set of rail road tracks and under high-tension lines. As half of the day was spent working hives and listening to the 'hum' of the power lines this question was a obvious one to ask. The consensus of opinion was the power lines had no more effect on the hives than the freight trains. For a more specific response you might want to contact the lab scientists and researchers directly. THANKS to the Louisiana Beekeepers' Association the USDA Lab Staff for supporting this annual Field Day. Rick & Nancy Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: wasp stuffing / bald brood I,ve heard of turkey stuffing and ballot box stuffing but wasp stuffing? In the 1997 Oct.issue of Nature ( vol. 389, p 450. ) I came across an article by Philip T. Starks and Emily S.Poe titled " 'Male-stuffing' in wasp societies." The abstract reads in part: "... We have observed an unusual aggressive interaction between nestmates of the paper wasp Polistes dominulus."( pretend that name is in italics, if this computer wasn't so ornery it would be.)..."In response to foragers returning to the colony, females (workers) initiate aggresive encounters with males culminating with the male being forced head first into an empty nest cell('male stuffing'). 'Stuffed' males are unable to feed, so the behaviour seems to ensure that food is preferentially channelled to larvae, which are likely to be more closely related to the workers than the adult males." The article has sentences like..."We observed two catagories of stuffing. 'Initial stuffing' (Fig. 1) began with antenna-to-antenna contact and was followed by grappling, biting and sting-threats. The aggressor then forced the recipient head-first into an empty cell. 'Repeated stuffing' was characterized by biting and pushing the abdomen of an individual whose head and thorax were already inside a cell." I guess Hymenoptera just have no respect for males. Several years ago I worked for a beekeeper in Australia who had a few hives that did not cap their brood cells. He called this condition 'bald brood'. The pupae seemed to developed normally. Is anyone familiar with this trait? Does it have any impact on the life cycle of varroa? Regards, Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:27:22 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees In-Reply-To: <200011130205.VAA00340@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >Regulation of the >brood >> nest microclimate was disturbed in exposed colonies and viability of embryos, >larvae >> and adults was reduced. (Other adverse effects were noted.) Honey production >was >> reduced. The effects were eliminated by moving the bees to a site at least 50 >meters >> from the line, or by placing them under trees, or by covering hive tops with a >layer of >> dirt. >> This just does not square at all with our experience in the field. The pylon yard described earlier is actually one of our most productive locations (which I attribute to quality of forage, nothing to do with the electricity), not one with reduced production. Everything seems completely normal, including all the criteria highlighted here and in other postings. Lab conditions could possibly demonstrate minor changes, but at a strictly practical level it seems irrelevant. You can hear the pylon buzzing all the time, and even crackling in rainy weather, but still no noticeable effect. The bees there:- Winter well Produce well Breed well Build comb normally Swarm normally Are not unusually aggressive Do not drift abnormally (thus navigation is not a problem) Also, obviously unlike the US and possibly Canada situation, the are no lanes of unused land under the lines, only the actual footprints of the pylons themselves. Land under the lines is cultivated normally. Thus most of the other concerns listed are not relevant to OUR situation, making these little bits of land prime real estate for beekeepers. We also place many seasonal yards close to, or even directly under, power lines, and have one at a substantial substation full of transformers, boosters etc (within 10 yards of the nearest colonies). Still no difference. I am not denying (nor confirming) that a scientist could demonstrate some changes from the presence of these lines (there also seems to be an assumption that such an effect would be negative, which is not necessarily the case). However, *at a practical beekeeping level* there are far more important things to get right before anyone starts worrying about power lines, which seem to have either no, or extremely minor, influence on the bees. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: formic acid gel In-Reply-To: <200011121538.KAA22586@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In using three pkg of Apicure, the bees propolized the bottoms and when I removed the pkgs some [now harder ] gel pieces fell between the frames - making for a time consuming clean up. The gel in one pkg had turned white and harder like chalk. I would agree the next time I use it, if I do, a screen under it should prevent the problem I had on removal after 21 days. John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 07:52:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees Comments: To: rebonney@javanet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Bonney wrote: > > Effects of electric fields (industrial frequencies) on honey bees were studied in the > > laboratory and under a high-voltage electric line (500 kv). Regulation of the brood > > nest microclimate was disturbed in exposed colonies and viability of embryos, larvae > > and adults was reduced. (Other adverse effects were noted.) Honey production was > > reduced. The effects were eliminated by moving the bees to a site at least 50 meters > > from the line, or by placing them under trees, or by covering hive tops with a layer of > > dirt. > > If the effect was negligible but measurable by close inspection, it would explain why general observation show no effect. A loss of 10% will not be noticible by general observation but would if scientifically measured. Given that, there still may be a difference between the Russian and US power lines - manufacture, configuration, spacing, etc.. Also, what might be causing the decrease is interesting, since the fix seems to be to cool the hives when directly under the power lines. Dirt and trees would seem to have little shielding effect on the electrical characteristics but would tend to cool the hives. But that does not explain the 50 meter move, unless it is also to a cooler place. Have there been any other studies? I would think so. Which brings up another question. Is there a source on the web for scientific abstracts and papers dealing with bees? A lot of our questions and arguments would be settled by having such a source. Or then, maybe not. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:20:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Sampling honey for AFB Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Robt Mann wrote in part: "To that end, I expected that wax foundation would be directly examined for viable AFB - by suitable microscopy, and by suitable attempts to culture microbes from the fndn. " First I am sure that this has been tested but am unable to locate references. I looked into this several years ago and was assured that foundation made from wax from infected combs ( those with AFB scale ) would not carry the disease to new colonies. Microscopy is not really a resonable test here since the spores cannot be identified as from the AFB bacteria by this means. It would take culturing and I was assured that either the prolonged heating or extensive filtering or likely both render the spores non viable or remove them. Just find bacterial spores in foundation is not enough you would have to actually grow them in culture and show that they were infective. It appears that wax foundation is safe as regards AFB and other honey bee diseases at least the commercially prepared foundations. The observation that AFB has not been carried to SA in commercial foundation ( if it is coming from North America anyway) also strongly suggest that the above it true. Wish I could find the references on this one. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 10:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: More thoughts on high-voltage lines and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst it seems pretty iffy whether fields from power lines affect bees, one might consider that on poorly maintained lines there will likely be corona discharge which produces ozone, as does a thunderstorm. Ozone, being a gas, would drift with the wind. We can smell ozone, and it is likely that bees can also. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:43:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees In-Reply-To: <200011131337.IAA11245@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >If the effect was negligible but measurable by close inspection, it would >explain why general observation show no effect. A loss of 10% will not be >noticible by general observation but would if scientifically measured. Hello Bill, I would not call 10% a minor loss. Given the cost and return structure of beekeeping for a living, 10% off crop is a huge great whack off profit. Our costs run at about 60% of average yield, so 10% off crop would equate to 25% of our average net income, so it is serious. We keep rudimentary location records going back over 20 years, as we cannot afford to persist with regular underachieving yards. This particular location (the one in the base of the large pylon) shows a significant positive anomaly, not a negative one, and yards as little as 800 metres away do not do as well. Again, I attribute this to forage and aspect. If there was a negative anomaly caused by power lines it would show up in our records averaged over a long period. We will use at least 15 (out of around 150) locations over the course of a season which will be within 50 metres of high voltage systems, so a pattern would be easily discernable, and there appears to be no positive or negative effect. Not perhaps the scientifically robust type of evidence perhaps required by some, but evidence enough for me to continue using these places. A good scare about them could prove helpful though, as it could make more places available to those of us who are not fussed. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:17:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard E Leber Subject: Re: Honey Board Amendment defeated MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:00:47 -0600 Bob Stevens writes: > What happens next? Three steps need to be taken: > Step 1: The current leadership of the American Bee Federation > should resign immediately. The new leadership should immediately > negotiate with the American Honey Producers to join into one national > beekeepers's organization. Could this revelation be extended to the pending results of our Presidential election?...Let the party that fails to "win" the White House forfeit their seats in congress, withdraw support from their leadership and yield to a single party government. NO, it won't and shouldn't happen in either case. > The national leadership has an opportunity to bring about badly > needed change in our industry. But, the old animosities and the injured egos will have to be set aside > for the good of the industry. There will continue to be different opinions from within the industry. The pie is small and there are many slices...beekeeper (hobbyist-sideliner-commercial), queen breeder & package bee shipper, honey producer, packer, retailer, researcher, equipment manufacturer and supplier. It would be to the benefit of the entire industry to present a united position to the general public and government agencies. As a small producer newer to our industry than "the old animosities and the injured egos" I would celebrate a closer relationship but not a marriage between the major industry organizations. > Step 2: This new National organization should support wholeheartedly > the anti-dumping lawsuits against Argentina and China initiated by the > Sioux Honey Association and the American Honey Producers. This expression of self preservation will be expensive. When the first round with China succeeded, Argentina moved into the fill the void created by that success. Unless this anti-dumping campaign is expanded to include all honey producing countries and those potential producers the long term effect can be projected against our initial experience with China. These funds may be better spent promoting specifically U.S. Honey...that market opportunity perceived missed by the National Honey Board. > Step 3: Planning should begin as soon as possible for a new Honey > Promotion Board promoting American honey Beekeeping industry members who fail to evolve with their market lose share and experience a decline in their narrow profit margin. The successful operation gleans the beneficial factors from those that cause a drain on the bottom line but few if any will completely trash their current business to establish themselves in a different aspect of the same industry. It should not be necessary to scrap our National Honey Board to affect changes that could provide U.S. beekeepers with an increase in our domestic markets. The results of the referendum are too quickly identified as non-support for the National Honey Board. There were possibly too many proposed changes clumped together to supply an accurate indicator for the broad picture...An increase in the per pound assessment, pre-production research, re-allotment of Board seats and quality assurance topped the list. With wholesale prices down an increase in the assessment would have jumped this line item by a large percentage drawing on the narrow profit margin of some producers. The expansion into beekeeping in addition to retail marketing may be a leap not just a step. Adding seats for non-producers on the board could weaken the honey producer's position. And the fear of Big Brother in the honey house doesn't appeal to anyone. Evaluate your position relative to the National Honey Board based on the goals of your individual operation. Don't rely on information or evaluations presented by your competition. Rarely will you receive positive support from your market competitor. A success in your operation could mean a change in their bottom line. If you market honey in any quantity ask the National Honey Board how they can help improve your sales and market share. Rick Leber Beekeeping & Honey Production Since 1987 Mobile, 'Sweet Home Alabama' ricks.toy@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 13:05:43 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Truesdell wrote: > >There is no effect. That is what is implied. > >I am not sure what you are implying but I assume that it is we should not >think all is OK when all is OK because it may not be. This is philosophy, >not science. And pardon the double negative. > >The issue of bees and power lines has come up often in this group and each >time the observation is that the lines themselves are not a problem. Power >company spraying, bears, vandals and other things are. And each time it >comes up, there is an assumption that it must be bad for the bees. > ... > what is the difference between a big Geiger counter and a >little one? My guess is one measures big cosmic waves and the other little >cosmic waves. and, by contrast, he later wrote: > >If the effect was negligible but measurable by close inspection, it would >explain why general observation show no effect. A loss of 10% will not be >noticible by general observation but would if scientifically measured. > >Given that, there still may be a difference between the Russian and US >power lines - manufacture, configuration, spacing, etc.. >Also, what might be causing the decrease is interesting, since the fix >seems to be to cool the hives when directly under the power lines. I believe any careful reader would notice the big difference between that first burst, which I did not dignify by any response at the time, and the more recent statement. May I try to summarise this discussion? 1 Some have suggested there may be effects on bees from high-voltage 50Hz or 60Hz power lines. By & large, the suggestions have been of harm, but benefit is also conceivable. 2 Other influences tend to confound studies of this question - herbicides sprayed on power-line rights-of-way, bears rampaging along the resulting clearways, etc. 3 A change of economic significance to beekeepers could well go unnoticed in this context of confounding variables. In other words, a decrease - or an increase - of, say, 10% in honey production (or in other parameter of bee performance) may have been occurring but we wouldn't know until careful measurements have been made. 4 The effect(s), if any, may not be monotonic with distance. Power lines may cause shielding from cosmic rays at some distances, and a concentration of them at other distances. Some British physicists have published measurements of just such a complexity. 5 No clear evidence of power-line effects on bees has been produced to this list. 6 Absene of evidence does NOT equal proof that there is no effect. To assert, in a polemical utterance, "all is OK " is unjustified. There is considerable scope for effects on bees from influences which have not been scientifically studied. We do *not* know all is OK, especially where we've not been carefully looking. 7 Some people, some of the time, tend to confuse the man with the ball. One crucial aspect of the scientific method is to discuss the idea, not to cast aspersions on the person(s) who put forward the idea. Let us play the ball, not its carrier. R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:13:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I apologize for any comments that may have been offensive to Mr. Mann. I wrote the response at 4 am after waking at 12:30am and not being able to get back to sleep, so my aggravation factor was fairly high. As far as the differences in my posts, one was based on the data presented at that time based on five years of rehashing this subject. The next commented on the more recent data. My problem with the post that started this is the unfounded supposition that high voltage lines might cause problems, and it is just that we do not see them. That is what I read, but it may not have been the writers intent. With my scientific background, I have to reject that when there are no studies backing up the statement. Otherwise, we will be chasing after ephemera with every assertion of truth without proof. As far as the Russian study, I was trying to be generous. I took the comments on the study at its face value, but there are many questions that I would like answered before I would agree that high voltage lines caused the effects noted. For example, what were the lab and field conditions? What was measured in the hives including temperature and field effects? What were the controls? What were the conditions of the power lines? What were the differences in the effects in the lab compared to the field? What environmental factors were present? Lots of questions. For the answers, you need the study. There is bad science as well as good science and until you can read the study, you do not know if it is bad or good. In our present age, there is a lot of bad science being used to promote agendas. You see it in the papers almost daily. Just look at the two sides of global warming or genetically engineered crops. Or ask a question to two beekeepers. A healthy skepticism is needed to wade through the conflicting claims. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME who needs more sleep ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: Power lines and swarming In-Reply-To: <200011102341.SAA15015@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is a very controversial subject. Scientists have shown > that wild bees > build comb parallel to the magnetic resonance of the earth; and that a > beekeeper can > badly alter the von Frisch waggle dance of direction to a > nectar source > simply by > placing a magnet on one side of a hive. Radiant energy falls off very fast as distance increases. One way to see how much magnetic energy is getting to your hives is to see if a simple compass is deflected by the power lines. This is not a perfect metric but may give you some indication. - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:16:09 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: AFB in wax Robert wrote: I wasn't vehement; nor do I see anything immoderate in what I wrote. I agree. Somebody overreacted. On the subject, though, I worked in a beeswax factory for many years and I do not believe that AFB spores could survive the high temperatures and filtration that raw beeswax is subjected to prior to the manufacture of foundation. However, banning the importation of bee equipment is prudent and probably did good than harm -- to encourage self-sufficency in the local industry. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 08:16:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adalbert Goertz Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees Comments: To: Al MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees > > Because of the fast fall off > >in field strength with distance > > >in field strength with distance > > One shouldn't assume this falloff is monotonic. A paper in > Wireless World a decade ago discussed how the shape of the > field gradient > could focus cosmic rays (highly ionizing radiation, which of > course the > actual 50Hz or 60 Hz mains fields are not) and offered > evidence (from big > Geiger counters) that it is so. The electromagnetic energy from the power lines will drop very fast (square of the distance? wish I still had my books). Some basic information on radiated waves is here: http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/afwa/U2.htm http://hawkins.pair.com/eRadiation.html http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/whyantradiates.html adalbert goertz remarks: The electric and magnetic field gradients for a cable/power line is not that fast and NOT like the inverse sq of the distance, but rather inverse LINEAR distance. However, the magnetic field drops down to less than that of the earth magnetic field (0.2 Gauss) except in the immediate area of the power line. None of this causes a Geiger counter to click. So, power lines do not present dangers to anyone close to the ground. (meaning farther than 5 yards from the power line). -- ** Adalbert & Barbel Goertz ** ph 719-390-1088 ** -- retired in Colorado Springs, (Colorado is a state of mind) --- Mennonite genealogy of East and West Prussia prior to 1945. Deutsche Web-Betreuung http://www.cyberspace.org/~goertz Holocaust is big business now ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: AFB spores in foundation (was Sampling honey for AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Since we are talking about foundation as a repository of AFB > spores and that no AFB has been found in SA using foundation from > outside the country, is there something else at work here? I cannot quote my source, I don't recall where I got this information although I seen to recall it was presented in a session of Cornell's Master Beekeeper Program. Anyway, my recollection is spores of Panibacillus larvae remain viable in foundation, but they do not cause a vegetative state within the hive. Speculation is that the beeswax contains or entraps the spores and they never get fed to less than day old larvae, hence no AFB outbreak. > Bees will chew up foundation, so it seems that if there were > AFB in the foundation after processing, it would be cropping up all > over. Not so. The spores must be ingested by larvae that are less than a day old. Larvae do not eat beeswax, nor is beeswax a componenet of larva food, so AFB spores in beeswax is not a problem. > since it would be randomly distributed in large quantities of wax and > therefor in foundation sold to hundreds of customers. And it > takes less than 25 or so spores to start the cycle... I'm nit picking, but I believe the LD 50 is 35. Now this post is not meant to encourage folks to go out and use AFB foundation (as if such a thing is marketed), it's just intended to pass on what I picked up in class (I believe) and cannot document. In a response to Bill Truesdel, Robt Mann wrote: > ... we won't know what T-t to use unless measurements are > made along the lines I've pointed out. I'm surprized by this query coming from the land of parafin dips, which have been documented to be an effective treatment to kill AFB spores. I do not know time and temperature, but I'm sure they're in the manual (don't recall the exact title and don't recall if it was from Austrailia or New Zealand). I recall the time for the dip was on the order of 15 minutes and the temperature was HOT, close to the flashpoint of parafin, hence the whole method seemed too dangerous for this timid beekeeper. ;-) I'm sure the parafin dip is document extensively in the BEE-L archives. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:39:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: More thoughts on high-voltage lines and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Morong wrote: > We can smell ozone, and it is > likely that bees can also. > > Bill Morong And? AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:16:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: formic acid gel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" George Imirie wrote: > Formic Acid gel, APICURE, was formulated by Bob Stevens of > BETTERBEE, Inc in Greenwich, N. Y. To pick more nits this morning, gel formic came out of Beltsville Bee Lab in Maryland. The name most linked to the product was H.R. Shimanuki. Bob Stevens carried the ball to bring the product from the laboratory to the marketplace. Apicure is the product name and company that markets gel formic. Bob's trials and tribulations to satisfy EPA are of epic proportion. Packaging the product continues to be a matter of consternation. > We all hope that this problem will be > corrected quickly. Having tried the product I can agree wholeheartedly with this statement. If/when the packaging issues are resolved, gel formic will be a very effective tool in controlling BOTH tracheal and varroa mites. Aaron Morris - thinking we all owe Bob Stevens continued support and a round of applause! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:03:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddy(ENL)" Subject: pH of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am intrigued by the acidity in honey. Can anyone tell me whether the acidity comes from the nectar, or through the "bee processing" of honey ripening, or a combination of both? Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:37:33 -0400 Reply-To: ajdel@mindspring.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AJ Organization: Zeta Subject: Acidity in Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Honey isn't actually very acid at all though it does have a low pH. These are different (though related) parameters. In chemist's terminology, honey has very low buffering capacity i.e. it cannot hold low pH when confronted with even modest amounts of base. This is illustrated by the fact that mead makers must supplement the acid in the must (or fermented mead) if the water used is at all alkaline. -- A.J. deLange CT Project Manager Zeta Associates 10302 Eaton Place Fairfax, VA 22030 (703) 359 8696 855 0905 ajdel@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:43:31 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: AFB spores in foundation (was Sampling honey for AFB) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I do not know time and temperature, but I'm sure they're in the manual > (don't recall the exact title and don't recall if it was from Austrailia or New > Zealand). Ref: Goodwin, R.M., Haine, H.M. 1998: Using paraffin wax and steam chests to sterilise hive parts that have been in contact with colonies with American foulbrood disease. New Zealand Beekeeper 5(4): 21. 160 deg C for 10 minutes - I think that would be 320 deg F? - very hot, and as Aaron says, very close to the flash point of wax. But with due care and concern, it is a very effective means of salvaging equipment that has been used effectively in New Zealand for many years. For a description of the process, etc, see: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/disease/man08.htm Nick Wallingford Tauranga, New Zealand nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 15:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "j. rubinstein" Subject: unusual hornets Since beekeepers often end up answering questions about all kinds of stinging insects, this may be of interest to many. Ever see a European hornet's nest attached to a bald-faced hornet's nest? Well, now you can. check out: http://luna.spaceports.com/~hornets/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:39:09 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: AFB in wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter Borst wrote: > I worked in a beeswax factory for many years and I do not believe that AFB spores could survive the high temperatures and filtration that raw beeswax is subjected to prior to the manufacture of foundation. That may well be fair enough, for the factory Peter worked in. But others may not heat the wax so long or so hot. What I suggest is: 1 Published measurements of viable spores in wax after different time-&-temp treatments. (I seriously doubt any commercially-practical filter could take them out; and anyhow if the heat has killed them, why bother with such fine filtration?) 2 Standard protocols published to apply this knowledge to fndn mfg so as to prevent spread of viable AFB spores in fndn. If all this is already in the archives, please forgive my cyberretardation and please fetch it out for us. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:57:14 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: High Voltage Bees In-Reply-To: <200011140016.TAA01621@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 >In other words, a decrease - >or an increase - of, say, 10% in honey production (or in other parameter >of bee performance) may have been occurring but we wouldn't know until >careful measurements have been made. Sorry Robert, I cannot agree with you fully on this one. We certainly would have noticed from our long term records. Others in a different situation may not have checked. Absence of any drop off is good enough for us. We do not need to paralyse our operation checking exhaustively and scientifically for these things, as the costs (in time and money) would just not be justified. >6 Absene of evidence does NOT equal proof that there is no effect. To >assert, in a polemical utterance, "all is OK " is unjustified. There is >considerable scope for effects on bees from influences which have not been >scientifically studied. We do *not* know all is OK, especially where we've >not been carefully looking. >From a scientists point of view you are, of course, correct. To call someones assertion that all is OK a 'polemical utterance' is also fine up to a point, but strictly from your point of view, and does sound a little tainted by emotion. From the point of view of the person making the statement, who is in all probability operating at a practical level (rather than a purely scientific one), it is a perfectly reasonable assertion, based on the balance of the evidence, as they see it. However, if you contemplate anything for a long enough time you are sure to find anomalies of some kind, which may or may not be linked to the factor you are looking at. Whether these anomalies are of any consequence whatsoever is another matter entirely, and the gist of what has gone on in this thread and others before it is that possibly there is some measureable field there, but of very little importance to either us or our bees. (Actually it is important to me in one way. I get great radio reception under the pylon, and like to be working there if there is some big sporting occasion on! So the field definitely changes radio reception.) Science, of which I am a great fan incidentally, has great potential to assist us in getting the best out of all sorts of productive systems, bees included. Unfortunately, in its purest form, where nothing is done or asserted until exhaustively proved, peer group reviewed, and replicated ad nauseum, it can also be an expensive artificial obstacle, and its failings (inability to prove an absolute negative for example) can be exploited by interested parties to prevent implementation of developments (GM debate is the classic example of this). Thus we have to be cautious about extreme adherance to, or dismissal of, science, if we are to achieve a sensible balanced result. Good old common sense is a great thing, and from my point of view I lean towards the 'it is OK' camp on this one, and find the arguments about 'damaging' effects of power lines interesting, but unlikely to influence my siting of colonies unless something dramatic happens. >7 Some people, some of the time, tend to confuse the man with the ball. >One crucial aspect of the scientific method is to discuss the idea, not to >cast aspersions on the person(s) who put forward the idea. > > Let us play the ball, not its carrier. In a small group like this, with a lot of experienced respondents who have been here a long time the distinction between the ball and the carrier does become blurred. Points of view can often be predicted by whoever is the respondent placing the post. I agree that simple personal attacks are bad, and cannot say I noticed too much of that in this thread. However, to continue the sporting analogy, an effective tackle often takes both ball and man, and so long as it is done without malice it is a valid strategy. Some people (NOT you I hasten to add) have some very skewed points of view and strange logic. Sometimes the ball carrier, or rather their reasoning, can be a quite legitimate target, as argument based only on facts can make precisely zero impact on them. Not the 'scientific method' perhaps, but then this list is not restricted to scientists (who are probably a minority here. Perhaps Aaron knows better? ), lots of ordinary beekeepers and practical people of varying degrees of experience are here who tend to be using a mixture of instinct, experience and science. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 16:35:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Question on medicinal qualities of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently had my hand operated on and got permission from the doctor to use honey as a dressing. The results so far have been extraordinary. Three weeks after the operation and two weeks of honey treatment all wounds- this was major surgery with one three inch cut across my palm and five other smaller ones of an inch or less on the fingers and palm- are closed with pink skin and no scabbing. Two of the cuts are completely closed with minimal scarring. I have most movement back- am typing this with both hands. The doctor is impressed and wants to write a paper on it. I gave him some of the papers from the manakua honey tests. My sister-in-law, who is an Occupational Therapist, told me before the operation that it would be a few months before I would be where I am in only three weeks. The honey healed the hand without scabs forming, so the healing was never interrupted by my flexing my hands, which is required so it does not stiffen up. If there were scabs, they would have opened and slowed the healing. Plus, it would have been painful flexing my hand with scabbing so I would not be able to have the amount of movement I now have. Unbelievable stuff, honey. Here is the question. The honey is raw in the strictest sense of the term. I do not heat it at all. But I was wondering about long term storage of raw honey for wound treatment and if granulation decreases its efficacy? That seems to me to be a major drawback to its use if it does. The other is you need a patient who is willing to use it. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME who says you have been picking on a disabled person and would sue, but all the lawyers are in Florida. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 11:53:06 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Question on medicinal qualities of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Here is the question. > The honey is raw in the strictest sense of the term. I do not > heat it at > all. But I was wondering about long term storage of raw honey > for wound > treatment and if granulation decreases its efficacy? That > seems to me to be > a major drawback to its use if it does. For anyone interested in honey for wound healing, I'd certainly suggest a thorough look around at http://honey.bio.waikato.ac.nz/contents.shtml, Dr Peter Molan's work over at Waikato University, about 1 1/2 hours over the hill from where I am... Nick Wallingford Tauranga, NZ nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 17:43:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: TM in Crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I lost the address of a bee-lister who posted that he had kept very many hives for very many years and had never used TM. Despite this, he had only encountered AFB maybe 13 or 14 times. He was arguing against use of TM because it masked the presence of AFB. I wish to post this reply to him: With the clarity of hindsight we can see that you would not have benefitted from use of TM except, at most, in 14 instances, because the AFB spores were not there enyway in numbers which exceeded the bees' ability to keep them suppressed below the symptom level. With the same hindsight, we can see also that the use of TM continually through all those years would not have created any problems, either. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/