From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:37 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05174 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00253 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00253@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:30 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0011E" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 117973 Lines: 2508 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:43:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder Comments: cc: "BeeGadgets@egroups. com" In-Reply-To: <200011290357.WAA01927@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re BEE-L discussion: > 5. The receiver has to penetrate some distance, and hives have metal > parts, etc. so the signal bounces around. If we are using Pierco plastic frames, could we just glue some iron onto a queen and use a metal detector? allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:29:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM in crisco Comments: To: arl@q7.net In-Reply-To: <200011290355.WAA01760@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If there are no right or wrong answers then why bother? > Take careful measurements for the experiment? Why bother? > You will not get a "right" answer. I think you purposely missed my point and set up a straw man in order to keep this going. You know I'm *not* saying that there are no truths, I am just saying that a fascist one-size-fits-all approach won't cut it any more. People are better informed these days and know their rights. They are more aware of the subtleties of these problems and won't be abused. Moreover problems will simply not stay localized; they are constantly and rapidly spread around entire continents. I keep reading simplistic rants about AFB. If wishes were horses, then beggars could ride. Wishing and hoping and making rhetorical statements will not change reality. Each problem is a bit different with a different environment -- in all the meanings of that word. > Same with the TM issue? Detect AFB burn the hives. What are the criteria? Having one spore? Having one cell? Being found at or near the scene of the crime? Being suspected of witchcraft? Mites changed our understanding of bee diseases and pests and made us begin to realise that there is no way to prove zero levels exist in a population. On the contrary, we learned IPM concepts and the idea that we have to assume we have the problem, sample, measure and evaluate whether the problem is currently well below or near set thresholds, and then decide what level of response -- if any -- is indicated in consideration of our current economic environment. Moreover, modern transport and its tendency to distribute both bees and honey around the country has increased the likelihood of our local problem measurement information going out of date quickly. In the not-too-distant past, we thought in terms of black and white, yes or no, good and bad. Now we are thinking in terms of probabilities, trends, burdens, opportunities, and environments. Not everyone likes this measured and constantly morphing approach. Many wish for the days when the good guys were good, the bad guys were bad and could be relied on to stay that way. Problems could be solved with a single bullet from a lawman's gun. Nowadays, setting up an AFB lynch mob -- or even legal executioner -- will not work most places I know of. > Sounds good until you get a 10% infection rate. After reading Allen's diary > every day solid for the last few months I doubt his operation could have > withstood a 3% infection rate. Not sure what you are saying. We used to have about a 3% annual AFB rate not too long ago. That is pretty normal for many outfits that are quite viable. Zero is obviously best, though that state can never be proven. >I agree with George's advice that burning is > best on one front but sometimes what is best for the forest is not good for > individual trees. If we ignore the needs of enough trees then we don't have > much of a forest anymore. We agree about this. Curing the disease should not also kill the patient. > There is a right answer to all of this. One best solution. I am just not > sure anyone knows what that is. I hope that between science and skill we > find it. >From what I can recall about mathematics and also nature, it is often unnatural to have only one solution, and when there are several, the best one is often a moving target. FWIW, I doubt there are fewer than 1,000 good solutions to this particular set of problems. When we discard the uneconomical and unknowable ones, and politically impossible ones then we are left with a set of tools that can be used to approach the goal. > "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" I can't figure out if you are celebrating this -- or warning us about it. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 05:08:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Finding an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Michelle. I have some suggestions but may I start at the beginning? The dominant feature of an OH is that it has one queen for 2 frames instead of one queen for 10 or 20, thus it has "too much queen". This will result in overpopulation and swarming. So an OH must be operated in conjunction with a full sized hive so that frames of brood can be moved out of the OH and replaced with empty ones. What this leads to is that the OH needs to have two frames of the same size and the same size as the full size hive. I prefer deeps. The next most important thing is that the clear space between the two glass sides must not be less than 1-7/8 inch. (Some (Kelley) are made 1-1/2 which is the distance between the centers of frames 1-2 and 2-3, say, in a regular hive but does not take into account that the bees in a regular hive have access to the space between the comb faces of frames 1 and 3. Bees and queens can move up into the upper "super" with a 1-1/2 spacing but often do not.) So call your intended supplier and obtain that dimension before you order. Some (Kelley) provide more than 3/8 inch bee space between the frames and the top and bottom which sometimes encourages burr comb. This question may be harder to ask a supplier. That said, I am involved with three Kelley OH kits, the third of which I have modified in both ways and am very happy with the results. I have not examined any other manufactur's product. Please be sure to understand that you will not be satisfied if the spacing between the glass sides is insuffient. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:33:20 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lear, Eddy(ENL)" Subject: Re: Beeswax Filtration/Purification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:38:30 -0000, Dave Cushman wrote: >.. a teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide added >This sounds dangerous to me...Does anyone have any experience of this >technique? Mark Jensen replied: I use H2O2 to lighten the colour of already clean filtered beeswax. I add about a cup of 35% H2O2 (not the 3% from the drugstore) to about 90 lbs. of wax at about 180 deg F. In the early 90's I was involved in the project execution of a Hydrogen Peroxide plant in Umbogintwini, Kwa-Zulu Natal. I would like to sound a word of warning to anyone who wants to use H2O2. In the purer forms it is extremely unstable and will break down rapidly in the presence of heat. If it comes into contact with carbon materials (such as wood, paper, etc.) it will spontaneously ignite. Environmentally it is a very friendly chemical breaking down into water and oxygen. The problem is that when it breaks down in a container it can cause an explosion. I have seen the effects of a container placed in the boot of a car (I think referred to as truck in other countries) where during the heat of the day, it started breaking down, the pressure build up caused the lid to crack and H2O2 started spraying about. A box of tissues ignited, fuelled by the supply of oxygen, I leave your imagination to tell the rest of the story. Regards Eddy Lear South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 06:53:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Beeswax Filtration/Purification In-Reply-To: <200011281756.MAA15056@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some years ago I read of a method of purifying beeswax using wax melted in > 10% water with a teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide added (at just less than > boiling point) the H2O2 boiled vigorously with very small bubbles wetting > any particles that were in suspension in the wax. (there also may have been > a bleaching action due to the H2O2). I used to bleach dark beeswax by heating it in a tank (drum) with some water below and adding HCl (muriatic acid). When heated sufficiently from the bottom, the boiling ensured good agitation. FWIW, Acid eliminates the sponginess that can occur wax that is heated over neutral or alkali water. I posted on this topic in more detail some years back. The process lightened the wax quite a lot, and cheaply. Not sure the chemical implications, though. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Honey House Cleaning Hello Everyone, I'm in the process of building a honey house with the usual equipment; extractor, uncapper, various tanks, and a bottler. My question is..., how do you clean the equipment, tanks, etc... and keep the Health Dept. happy. The one around here (west Texas) wants everything cleaned with 171 degree hot water, which can't be reached with a normal hot water heater. Are there other ways other than extremely hot water? Thanks for your help. Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > > Same with the TM issue? Detect AFB burn the hives. > > What are the criteria? Having one spore? Having one cell? > Being found at or > near the scene of the crime? Being suspected of witchcraft? > You missed my point, kind of. The answer is simple: burn the hive. Works very well as long as you keep the question simple. > > > Sounds good until you get a 10% infection rate. After > reading Allen's diary > > every day solid for the last few months I doubt his > operation could have > > withstood a 3% infection rate. > > Not sure what you are saying. We used to have about a 3% > annual AFB rate not > too long ago. That is pretty normal for many outfits that > are quite viable. > Zero is obviously best, though that state can never be proven. > After reading your diary, and all the work you had for diesel transmissions, requeening, supering, uncapper problems, labor and now wrapping the extra burden of having to burn N hives would have been expensive. What are you running now 2,500 hives? With all of the other aggravation the thought of having to burn over 75 hives is not pleasant. You lose the frames, comb and woodenware. Have a bad year (10%) then 250 hives? > > We agree about this. Curing the disease should not also kill > the patient. > If I am dealing with a national epidemic that threatens the vast majority of the population then I may have only one sure path to preserve the majority, and that could be allowing the sick to die in isolation. Not a popular solution until you have a real epidemic (i.e. smallpox in the 1800's). If we are losing our bee population to a disease to which we have no cure (AFB in the early 1900's) then one solution stands out: burning. Today we have several options. You are applying a broad treatment program and following up with inspections and the removal of bad comb. Someone else may elect, or be compelled by law to burn. A third method would be to inspect often and treat the infected with antibiotic along with removeal of bad comb. > >From what I can recall about mathematics and also nature, it > is often unnatural > to have only one solution, and when there are several, the > best one is often a > moving target. Yes, the first problem is to define "best". Best for the bees or the beekeeper? Best for you (me) or the entire world population? Best for honey production, hive strength or overwintering survival? Is there more than one way to get there? Is one way better? If one way is better then is the cost of finding out "better" so high that we gain nothing from finding out. Is the risk of waiting while we look for better too high? With computers we often "just do it" because the cost of looking is higher than the extra work: 1) IF (A <> B) THEN A := B 2) A := B In the first example we check to see if something needs to be done. If A is not equal to B then we assign the value of B to A. In the second example we just assign the value of B to A. Why do something if it is not needed? Because the cost of the test can be higher than a few extra assignment operations. In beekeeping we treat the hive with formic without testing for mites because the labor to test one costs more than the labor and material to treat five hives. The result of all of this is I follow what you are doing and why. If I had a better way to do it I would offer it up, but I don't. I have concerns but then don't we all? > > "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is > the lynch mob" > > I can't figure out if you are celebrating this -- or warning > us about it. > Warning. Both of our governments have protections against this danger by putting certain rights above any desire of the people. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder In-Reply-To: <200011291303.IAA10622@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:43 PM 11/28/00 -0700, you wrote: At one time, you could buy metal marker tags, colored and numbered. Latest ones that I have been getting are plastic and from Europe. Norm Gary used to provide the metal ones - might warrant an enquiry. >Re BEE-L discussion: > >> 5. The receiver has to penetrate some distance, and hives have metal >> parts, etc. so the signal bounces around. > >If we are using Pierco plastic frames, could we just glue some iron onto a queen >and use a metal detector? > >allen > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:45:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Finding an observation hive I thought it might be useful to someone on the list if I shared a few of my own personal experiences with a Walter Kelley Observation Hive. I'll start out by first saying that there may be suggested and preferred ways of doing these things, but instead of following those suggestions, I did it the "cheap" way. As a matter of fact, the reason I bought the Kelley OH was that after looking at the advertisements for observation hives in all the catalogs I had, I found that the Kelley OH was the cheapest one I could find. I couldn't afford to spend more. They come without glass, so you have to go to a glass place and have the glass cut to the specifications they send you. The glass (of course) ended up being more expensive than I thought it would be, so in the end, the overall cost of setting up the OH was close to the prices other places might have charged for their OH's. But I had already bought the Kelley OH so I was committed by that time. The cheap way to get it started is to take a frame of brood with adhering bees (make sure there are some eggs or very young larvae on the frame you select) and put it in the OH. Some older field bees may leave to return to their original hive. Then let them raise their own queen. The population may drop, the queen may not be too good, but what do you want? It's an observation hive. You don't want your most productive queen in a hive that only has two or three frames. Besides that, you get to watch them build their queen cells and the various other activities that take place during this time. You end up with a week colony...perfect for a small observation hive. I ended up getting two "supers" for my observation hive. Actually I bought one and then made the second super myself, patterning it after the first one. For me, that was the easiest and cheapest way to do it, and I was very pleased with the results. I suppose you could set it up with a frame from a swarming colony that already had a sealed swarm queen cell or two on it and get even quicker results. It would probably only work well during the height of the nectar flow. Maybe I was just lucky, but another local beekeeper who had an observation hive in his kitchen told me that was the way he did it and it had worked for him every time. One of the things that he told me he had to do periodically, though, was when the OH got to be too populous, he would spray the bees hanging outside the window (because they couldn't get into the hive) with soapy water to kill them and help keep the population down. I'm not relating this as a recommendation--just as "information" about what one person chose to do to solve his overpopulation problem with his observation hive. I did not have that problem nor use that (soapy) solution for my OH. For my second super, I used put in a frame with foundation so my small weak colony would have plenty to do. It was fun, educational and entertaining for me, my family, and many visitors to our home. Always a conversation piece, and my "game" that I played over and over was "find the queen" (an unmarked queen). I probably spent hours playing that game. Many times I could not find her, but the more time I spent looking, the better I got at it. That game sure helped me later to find the queens in my regular full-sized hives because I had already practiced it and gotten pretty good at it in my observation hive. I was satisfied with the results I obtained with my Walter Kelley observation bee hive, and I made no modifications to it, but I have no alternative experience to compare it to. Best wishes for success. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:11:25 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Finding an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michelle, Dan has raised some good points and i would like to comment and add to the points. Bob dan hendricks wrote: I have some suggestions but may I start at the beginning? The dominant feature of an OH is that it has one queen for 2 frames instead of one queen for 10 or 20, thus it has "too much queen". This will result in overpopulation and swarming. The Draper hive has three full size frames which is a big advantage over all others which are mostly a deep and a 6 5/8. Three deep frames gives you extra swarm protection. consider a ob like you would a small nuc. With the Draper hive you need to keep both top frames full of honey if possible. With only one frame of brood i doubt you will have a swarming problem. Top two full frames of honey and bottom frame brood is the way all i have seen are set up. If you can get a deep super or two of honey you can double wrap with trash bags and store in a freezer. Take a couple frames out and let defrost at room temp. Pull middle frame or middle and top if the nest is expanding too fast and replace with full frames of sealed honey. You should be back to the original plan with two sealed honey above and a nice frame of brood,queen and bees to cover. Give the two frames you removed to your other hive outside. Field bees can be a problem as they tend to run on the glass making the glass apear dirty so the bottom brood frame may need to be changed. Consult your mentor as a you may need help restoring the ob hive. You can allways feed through top hole with a bear but i don't recommend feeding as bees tend to mess up glass but i have fed before. Also without a huge amount of pollen comming in brood rearing is somewhat restricted. Remember all a ob hive needs to show is a queen, brood (eggs and larva at times),usually at least a few drones and sealed honey(pollen you can point out if in the hive but not absolutely necessary to have a good OB hive). You need to be alert to a queens not laying. OB hives can get smaller. What we tried which didn't work was putting two mt drawn comb or foundation above. The young queen will quickly lay all over all three frames . Many times she will lay a egg on foundation and expect her throng to draw the cell. What was tried that will work is to start with three full frames of sealed honey and install the Kelley *Ob hive package with queen* and let nature take its course. The bees eat out a perfect pattern and the queen lays in the mt cells. Problem here is they pick the nest location and can be the top frame. With the Draper OB hive frames come out the front(great feature) so all you need to do is carefully remove frame and place in bottom position. Bees allways want to move upward. I don't want to make setting up the hive seem too hard because it really isn't. Print out these emails for reference. Email me and i will try to help if problems arise. Dan wrote: an OH must be operated in conjunction with a full sized hive so that frames of brood can be moved out of the OH and replaced with empty ones. Another hive is needed as Dan says. I would follow however the plan above if useing the Draper hive. Using the full frames of honey to slow hive growth. One thing i have learned about bees is when all combs are full of honey they stop . You want the queen to be constantly looking for a place to lay but do not provide unlimited laying area in the OB hive. Dan Wrote: What this leads to is that the OH needs to have two frames of the same size and the same size as the full size hive. I prefer deeps. I agree completely on this point. In my opinion Ob hives with a frame and a 6 5/8 frame are poor choices for year around ob hives. Best left for weekend shows and trips to the schools. Sincerely, Bob Harrison P.S. thanks Michelle for the direct email. I am posting my reply as i feel others on the list might find the information useful. __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:22:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: water temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark says "everything cleaned with 171 degree hot water, which can't be reached with a normal hot water heater" Are you sure? My heater, powered with natural gas, produces at 180 degrees. I think the maximum temperature is a function of: A. The thermostat setting that can be reached with the knob. That can usually be changed with a screwdriver and the instruction manual. B. The pressure relief valve that contains a "gizmo" that is melted (?) at a certain temperature, to prevent the water heater from blowing up if the thermostat gets stuck and fails to turn off the heat source. My understanding is that this valve can be changed or modified to accommodate higher than normal temperatures. Check with the manufacturer or a high-quality plumbing supply house. Hope this helps Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:34:38 -0500 Reply-To: Honeybees@inorbit.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Finding an observation hive In-Reply-To: <200011291310.IAA10853@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Dan and All, Dan, could You explain how You modified the Kelley OH? I've often wondered how the quality was as the price is very good compared to all others offered for sale. And the Kelley Company has been around for over 75 years so I didn't think They would sell a really bad product. If the modification is not too difficult then it would be a bargain. Thanks, Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:49:01 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Honey House Cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark and all, I don't understand the water temperature unless you are washing jars. If washing jars you need to find a used(new)commercial dishwasher. When you finnish washing things down but before you extract or bottle. Wash everything down with a water and bleach solution. Kills a hell of a lot more germs than hot water. Honey is hard to contaminate but it only takes a few minutes to wash everything down with a bleach & water solution. Most sideline beekeepers use new jars or at least tell the health department they do to keep from having water temperature problems. I can only talk about Missouri laws so maybe a Texas beekeeper will post. I do know that its useless to argue with health inspectors. Trying to comply is the best way. Checking out all the rules in advance prevents many headaches. A friend was shut down because he added a stove to his honey house. He had to add a firewall between the honey house and the main building. In Kansas you need to buy a permit and be inspected before selling in the stores. One of the Kansas beekeepers stores called and said the health inspector pulled all his honey pending inspection. He had sold honey for years but never in the stores. If you are selling *your honey* from *your house* different rules apply in most states. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Mark Coldiron wrote: I'm in the process of building a honey house with the usual equipment; extractor, uncapper, various tanks, and a bottler. My question is..., how do you clean the equipment, tanks, etc... and keep the Health Dept. happy. The one around here (west Texas) wants everything cleaned with 171 degree hot water, which can't be reached with a normal hot water heater. Are there other ways other than extremely hot water? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:10:26 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: water temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: Mark says "everything cleaned with 171 degree hot water, which can't be reached with a normal hot water heater" Are you sure? My heater, powered with natural gas, produces at 180 degrees. Hello Lloyd and all, I believe (in my opinion) that cleaning tanks etc. with 171 degree water would be dangerous as 171 degree water can cause serious burns. I believe that hot water speeds up the cleaning process but does little for preventing contamination 140 degree vs 171 degree heat when washing equipment. Bleach and water does. In bars glasses are reused without extreme heat by dipping in such a solution in most states. In restaurants all plates and glasses are run through a commercial dishwasher ( in most states) to provide the 171 degree temperature. I believe when Mark responds we will find out he is trying to recycle jars. The same thing he was told applies for Missouri but we have to use a commercial dishwasher to recycle jars. Bob Harrison P.S. do we think less of the safety for our bar goers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:24:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jay Mowat Subject: screened bottom boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The discussion about screened bottom boards has been very interesting and I'd like to try them next season. Does anyone have a good design? What guage screen? What is the size of the entrance? Does everyone leave them on all year year no matter the climate or do you put standard bottom boards on during the winter? If you leave them on throughout the winter, how high off the ground should the hive be? Should you shelter the space from the hive to the ground? Jay Mowat Erin, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:49:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Post Subject: Re: funny smell/taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David L. Green wrote: Many beekeepers have made warm boxes of old refrigerators, where you can hold honey at 100 degrees or a little more, for a day or two This does not degrade the honey as much as higher temps. Not wishing to tap any fingers. I know how difficult it is. We have input from very many countries, cultures and types. Knowing these differences is important. Due to non-standard systems, confusion could turn to danger or animosity because of perceived ill advice. 100 degrees? We assume F. Could we be specific whenever we use measurements please? Sincerely Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:24:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: water temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Mark says "everything cleaned with 171 degree > hot water, which can't be reached with a normal hot water heater" > > Are you sure? My heater, powered with natural gas, produces at 180 degrees. - or set up a boiler and an insulated steam hose for some really hot cleaning. Remember to vent the excess pressure. ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry J Bromenshenk wrote: > ones that I have been getting are plastic and from Europe. Norm Gary used > to provide the metal ones - might warrant an enquiry. > > >If we are using Pierco plastic frames, could we just glue some iron onto a > >queen > >and use a metal detector? > >allen Alumin(i)um would give a sharp, clear tone, and should be easy to pick up with a White Goldmaster, etc., and would be lightweight. Almost nothing is worse to a gold- or coin-hunter than a bunch of decayed foil gum wrappers in the soil. - I read that back in the early atomic age, little foil packets of radioactive salts were considered as queen beacons - findem with a geiger counter - I suppose that was before cellular damage was realized as a hazard. - put the simplest and lightest part on the queen and carry the electronics yourself. - the trick is getting a metal-free hive - I have even considered that a stationary metal detector which you could pass single combs over would speed up queen finding considerably. Then you could ignore the hive-body nails and cleats. Garrett and White both make lightweight self-contained wand units for fairly low prices - the kind they wave at you if you fail the airport walk-through. John F. Edwards Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:59:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > If we are using Pierco plastic frames, could we just glue some iron onto a queen > and use a metal detector? - as a followup, with no judgement or personal financial interest, here's one small detector for single-comb scanning: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/t/x/txpaul57/enforcer.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jay, Use 1/8" screen (hardware cloth.) I made mine so I can put a piece of plastic under them to catch the debris. I used it to check for mite fall. It's a good indication of whats happening in the hive. Kent Kingston, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:50:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: The difference Between Mites and Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know for a fact that if we were trying to raise mites, rather than suppress them, we would soon find that we had problems with providing the right environment. We would eventually find ourselves combating *their* diseases and predators in a struggle to maintain our mite populations. The reason I am sure of this is that we have had that problem with every other organism we have tried to encourage. As soon as we attempt to manage them and generate populations or production above the natural levels, we discover the factors that limit them in nature. Up to that point, we tend to assume there are no such limits. Penicillin was discovered by people who were having trouble culturing a troublesome bacterium in a lab and got to wondering what was 'spoiling' their attempts, causing them to have to discard plates, and forcing them repeatedly to try over. They discovered that other organisms on the medium were giving off chemicals that suppressed competitors' growth and thus giving them an edge over the desired culture. We found that some of these chemicals were not particularly poisonous to us and our livestock, and by imitating these chemicals, we have been able to take a page out of the fungus' book and to thus compete more effectively with many bacteria. To carry this experience to our problem with mites: we know intuitively that there *must* be many thousands of things that will inhibit varroa and tracheal mites' growth and reproduction. The problem is that even if we knew what they were, many, if not most, of these things are likely hard or very hard on other similar critters and bees are somewhat similar to mites in many respects. Hammers, extreme cold, ionizing radiation, most pesticides, and harsh chemicals are a few obvious mite controls that cannot be easily used on mites in the presence of bees due to the adverse effects on the bees. Nonetheless, there must be some things -- environmental, topical, or nutritional -- that have neutral or beneficial effects on bees, but adverse and hopefully fatal effects on the mites that concern us most. The key is identifying these factors. If we think of this as a filtering problem, then identifying the ways in which the mites differ from our bees is the most important first step to finding a new, permanent method of control. Of course the fact that humans are in the picture, narrows the field further, since any method discovered must be benign as far as humans administering the control is concerned, and also benign to humans encountering the bees or their products. Drone brood removal is one technique that takes advantage of some behavioural tendency of varroa. There must be thousands of other possible tricks we can use, if we can just determine more exactly where bees and mites differ. Mites, in their way are as interesting and important to people and many have been the subject of exhaustive study. Bees have been well studied by bee scientists, but I wonder how much interaction there is with experts on mites? Such interaction could be very fruitful. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 23:17:48 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Electronic Queen Finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An electronic transponder for this task could be much simpler than most of the devices being developed for warehouse/supermarket use since it only needs to respond with one piece of data "I'm here". The warehouse devices need to contain specific information "I'm here and I'm number 7654321(i.e. I'm unique)". One "print" of transponder could be used by every beekeeper in the world for every one of his queens. Durability of the attaching glue may be an issue although the queen does not "rough-house it" like the workers. Alan Riach Edinburgh, Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:02:03 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pdillon Subject: Braula coeca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is said that Beekeepers gradually become deaf - maybe! But weak in the eyes also? Is this my case or am I just un-observant. Whilst keeping bees in the S.W.of England it was a fairly common occurrence to see the little beast passing under the name of the "bee louse" - Braula coeca. A sign of impending disaster for some (just like one of my neighbours who is convinced that when visited by a Barn Owl some poor soul in the near by village is going to drop dead!), others contemplating suicide thinking that they had found V.j. Having arrived in France I was confronted with V.j. with no time to adjust - it was already endemic - but the "bee louse" - haven't seen one in 11 years. Have the anti-V.j. treatments got rid of this wingless fly. What do others say! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:20:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Finding an observation hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out the design of Thornes - www.thorne.co.uk. Basically it is a wooden 4 frame nuc with a 5th frame raised above a piece of QE between sheets of glass. The beauty of it is that it is stable and portable and with 5 frames, most of which are placed as in a hive, is more viable than a conventional observation hive. When wanting to show off the bit everyone wants to see; the queen and immediate surroundings, simply take the frame she is on and put it in the observation part, transferring the frame of stores or whatever down below. David Eyre is the stockist for Thornes on your side of the big water. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:14:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Terence Golla at Local Honey For Sale Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I lean towards the the simple/cheep solution. Electronic are a neat idea but seem to be expensive. The metal detector sounds like a better solution. Different metals give off different tones. If you could tune a detector to a unique metal not in the hive. Set the scan area to be long and narrow. You could search down through the hive, find the frame and pull it. As for metal tag. Replace it with metal paint. Their are metal paints available that are basically glue with powered metal in them. In addition, the paint would give you a visual tag. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:54:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Electronic Queen Finder In-Reply-To: <200011292340.SAA01989@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 PM 11/29/00 +0000, you wrote: Glues are available, and the chip that IDs the queen, breeder, year of purchase, etc. would not be much harder to produce and for large operations (1000s of hives) could be a valuable database when tied to production, etc. Granted, the receiver has to be a bit more complicated, but the basic reciever is a coil (for I'm here) or I'm here and I'm a Buckfast queen from Magic Apiaries, May 2000. >An electronic transponder for this task could be much simpler than most >of the devices being developed for warehouse/supermarket use since it >only needs to respond with one piece of data "I'm here". The warehouse >devices need to contain specific information "I'm here and I'm number >7654321(i.e. I'm unique)". >One "print" of transponder could be used by every beekeeper in the world > >for every one of his queens. >Durability of the attaching glue may be an issue although the queen does > >not "rough-house it" like the workers. > >Alan Riach >Edinburgh, Scotland > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:08:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/29/00 3:08:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, edwards@TUCSON.ARS.AG.GOV writes: > > > If we are using Pierco plastic frames, could we just glue some iron onto a > queen > > and use a metal detector? > How about a radioisotope instead? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:18:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Honey House Cleaning Thanks for all of your input! Several of you are thinking the requirement for 171 degree water is because I'm reusing bottles. No, the Texas Health Dept. wants everything - extractor, uncapper, bottler, etc... washed down with at least 171 degree water. I couldn't really understand it and questioned the head of the this district about it. She was very nice and even call the main office in Austin. Yep...., 171 plus degree water! They even wanted me to prove that the bottles from the factory are clean. I managed to get someone from Mann Lake to call the manufacturer. They'll be sending me a letter shortly. She did mention washing everything down with bleach and water, but it sounded like that was in addition to the hot water. Tomorrow, I'll call her again. I'll let you all know what she says. Any suggestions on the concentration? Do you think it will damage any of he equipment? The next thing I'm bracing for, is the water run off when I wash everything down, especially if I use bleach and water. I personally think watering the grass/weeds with it is fine. I'm just waiting for the hammer to drop on that one. Septic tank? :-( Actually, septic tanks are handled by a different agency. Haven't talked to them yet! I talked her out of separate toilet facilities. My house is pretty close. I couldn't talk her out of having two sinks though - one to wash my hands and the other to wash utensils in. In case you are wondering, this whole setup is on a small cotton farm in west Texas, literally in the middle of nowhere! I just wanted to make some extra money because the cotton market is really bad. Go figure! More input? Mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:19:08 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder In-Reply-To: <200011290357.WAA01942@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 05:04 PM 11/28/00 -0000, Jerry B wrote: > it isn't as simple as it sounds ... > We had a 27 mg chip that worked on a bee, but it was too heavy and fat >for a worker to carry and would have been knocked off a queen. We know of >a less than 10 mg chip that will work. Many will recognise the first number as a typical worker payload; around 1/1000th of an ounce, for all us nostalgic Imperial types (mainly Yanks these days - we Kiwis were forced to go metric 3 decades ago). Taking it down to one-third of that burden does not necessarily make it a negligible load. > But then you have to redesign the >signal receiver. And the chips cost more than the queen. > >4. The antennae is still the killer obstacle (we have a way to fix this, >but the initial tooling up will cost a bundle). How many? Strung out along which body parts? >5. The receiver has to penetrate some distance, and hives have metal >parts, etc. so the signal bounces around. So, you can't buy the receiver >(hand-held wand, off the shelf). > >6. All of this is doable, but the startup costs are still prohibitive. >7. We do know how to do this and have working prototypes - it is making >the transition to a commercial, affordable product that is the problem. >Only a few hobbiest and researchers would ever buy a system where the >receiver cost several thousand dollars and each chip costs more than a >queen. You need a cheap receiver, and an inexpensive miniature chip. I'm afraid I'll predictably chime in with some Precautionary Principle stuff. What flux of RF is needed? What studies have been done on the biological effects of that - on the bees, and on us? The fear of cell-phones is not entirely unreasonable. Electromagnetic radiation does not have to be of ionizing wavelengths, or to heat the absorbing tissue, for it to cause harm. I am impressed with the technical accomplishments of Jerry & team, but I would deprecate the whole plurry project. Is the need so great? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:03:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Finding an observation hive In-Reply-To: <200011291737.MAA19905@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In case I did not mention it, there are several plans for building OHs at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Observation.htm as well as links to some who have OHs. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:06:28 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Chemistry of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Lots of good posts about the chemistry of honey, many thanks. Someone asked "why". No one mentioned what I consider one of the most dramatic products of evolution: Honey! Dilute sucrose, nectar, ferments. But bees require long-term storage. So they evolved a practice of transforming it into a form, "dry" fructose and glucose, which does not ferment. Doesn't this blow your mind as it does mine? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:51:47 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Honey House Cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello mark and all, Sounds like you have got off to a bad start with the health department. Mark Coldiron wrote: They even wanted me to prove that the bottles from the factory are clean. I never heard of this before. Commercial bottle lines blow air in each bottle before filling and most beekeepers look in each jar first but prove they are clean? I managed to get someone from Mann Lake to call the manufacturer. Sounds strange to me. I have heard of plenty problems with using used jars but not new jars. New jars are sterilized in the manufacture process. She did mention washing everything down with bleach and water, but it sounded like that was in addition to the hot water. Any suggestions on the concentration? Do you think it will damage any of he equipment? In Missouri we pour a little bleach in a gallon of water. Might not be good enough for Texas. You may have to measure with her watching over your shoulder! If bleach and water won't hurt your laundry i doubt it will hurt your equipment. In Missouri if your eyes are burning you have put too much in and if you can't smell the bleach you haven't put enough in. Septic tank? :-( Actually, septic tanks are handled by a different agency. Haven't talked to them yet! In Missouri honey house drains have to be hooked up to a septic tank. I couldn't talk her out of having two sinks though - one to wash my hands and the other to wash utensils in. Many states want three sinks. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:11:03 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re; The difference Between Mites and Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen et al A great post! I remember some researchers in UK a few years ago bemoaning the fact that they could not maintain sufficient infestations of varroa mites to conduct their work properly. There is a move afoot to encourage "mite damaging" behaviour. in an attempt to quantify and "score" this damage I am trying to devise a scale of marking that would produce a more accurate measure of this activity. Is there any existing "marking scheme" for this behaviour? Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:25:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: bleach/water concentration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many years ago I was told by a laboratory technician that 1 tablespoon (sorry, to the metric users) of Clorox brand to 1 gallon of water for 10 minutes is "more than enough". Apparently, the brand does matter. (I think, as to the time for the kill.) Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:25:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jay asks "Does everyone leave them on all year no matter the climate or do you put standard bottom boards on during the winter? If you leave them on throughout the winter, how high off the ground should the hive be? Should you shelter the space from the hive to the ground?" I don't know about "everyone", but I leave them on all year, and personally know of two others who do likewise. Between us, many hundreds of hives are so involved (I have 75). With temperatures of -20F, and sometimes snow completely covering the hives, there is no noticeable damage. All hives have generous upper entrances. I use hive stands, with hives approximately 10" above the ground. The two others use pallets, so hives are about 4" above ground level. With hive stands there is no shelter from the hive to the ground. With pallets, there is some shelter. I don't believe it makes a difference. I strongly believe...in this climate or warmer...that COLD DOES NOT HURT BEES! In climates such as Minnesota and inland Canada that may not be true. (I don't know.) I use standard 3/8" openings and a "landing board" of about 1.5". the landing board is almost certainly unnecessary, but I like seeing the bees. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:33:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T'N'T Apiaries Subject: Re: Honey House Cleaning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should you ever advance to using a pressure washer, I would recommend you do an initial wash down with cold water. Provided you do a timely clean up, this works very well. Save the hot for your final rinse. When a number of us in this region started using "Hotsy" or their like washers we found out quickly how susceptible to the semi-liquid wax bearings were. I was amazed where the wax would penetrate under a little pressure. These washers keep you on top of your maintenance; i.e. keeping things well greased. As an aside, when I mentioned this to my brother-in-law, a machinist/pipefitter he wasn't shocked at all. He swears that many in those trades, especially the older ones or those trained outside North America, use beeswax on a reqular basis to brake joints, etc. It'll beat "Nutcracker", "CRC", "WD40", etc hands down. The bolts or joints are heated and beewax applied. When things are cool enough to handle, you torque them apart and burn off the remaining wax. He claims it got him work a few years ago on a Power Plant upgrade. Some young bucks had been four days trying to disassemble part of a generator. The Foreman told him if he got things apart by the end of the shift (3 hours) he had a job. The guy then laughed and walked away. Well 2 hours later, Jim had a job for the next 20 months. Dave Tharle Ardmore, AB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:38:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: screened bottom boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jay and everyone, You need to use a mesh size that will allow the mites to drop through but not allow the bees to go through. I use 8 mesh hardware cloth with 1/8 inch wire spacing. This replaces the solid wood of the bottom board. I wintered two colonies last winter here in St Paul, MN outdoors with the mesh bottoms and currently have 4 on the mesh bottoms. I only use a regular solid bottomboard under the screen bottom for treating with formic acid ( gel packs here ) otherwise the bottom is open all year. My colonies are on stands that are about 8 inches high with no wrapping but good wind protection. We sometimes but not always get enough snow to reach to the bottom of the hives but didn't last year and don't yet this year. The colonies reared brood this summer to the bottoms of the combs on the bottom and even raised queen cells (swarm cells) from the bottom bar of the bottom box. They really do seem to help reduce the increase of varroa mites but I have not done any measurements. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:45:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder In-Reply-To: <200011300539.AAA10742@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We have tested for negative effects of fields, etc. I'm not at liberty to say how the antennae would be made, but it is small and bonded to the bee - the technology has been tested, and it doesn't involve glue and doesn't hurt the bee. The goal is a 1 mg tag+antennae, about the thickness of a piece of foil. But, as many point out, the development cost is prohibitive at this time. Again, we are looking at a product for folks with 1,000-15,000 hives where finding the queen is only part of the equation - the objective is to be able to capture records to fine tune production, queen selection, inventory, etc. For 1-2 hives, or even thousands, if all you want to do is ping the queen, then the metal detector approach may be fine- but I suspect sensitivity will be a challenge. Any metal detector sensitive enough to pick up metal in paint will ping on every nail in the box and anything on the beekeepers. Need very fine tuning - let me know if you can fine tune to this degree, we may have a project. Thanks Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:49:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Chemistry of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Dan for another attempt at why. You said fructose and glucose is "dry". Is this a scientific term? What do you mean by "dry"? The research refers to fructose and glucose being more stable, which presumably means that they are less likely to breakdown as sucrose does. Plants for some reason yield sucrose but the bees convert it into two smaller sugars. One chemist-beekeeper suggested that two sugar molecules replacing the one sucrose molecule causes the ripening honey to be more concentrated which helps prevent spoilage. Hopefully we can understand this and not throw our hands up and call it god's way. I too am amazed at the intricacies of what the honey bees do. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:39:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Camille Mueller Subject: Re: bleach/water concentration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently, the brand (bleach) does matter. I have always understood that Clorox bleach was a little weaker than generic bleach (5% vs 10%). Which was why clothes last longer and look better with Clorox bleach. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Go to: www.beesource.com/plans/ipmbottom.htm for plans. Also see: On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Allen Dick wrote: ... As we have learned repeatedly on this list, what is true in one geographical area, may be seriously false in another region. We sometimes have very long winters up here in Alberta. In my experience around here, bees will look good and survive until late February when wintered without wraps and with excessive air flow -- as described.... It may be of interest to the group to see a short article I wrote for the "Alberta Bee New" last summer. It details my experience with overwintering hives with screened bottom boards. Note that although the screened bottom boards were left open to the ground the hives were insulated with 1" of styrofoam everywhere else. They were on 2X6 rails in rows of 5. Open Screen Bottom Boards in Central Alberta Recently there have been a number of articles written suggesting the use of screened bottom boards for control of Varroa mites. A comprehensive article in APIS written by Malcolm T Sanford is available on the University of Florida website at : http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis99/apaug99.htm#1 The advantages claimed for the boards are: 1. Mites which fall from adult bees go through the mesh and are unable to reattach themselves. 2. Brood rearing ends sooner in the fall and starts later in the spring. This provides a longer broodless period which aids in mite control. 3. A space under the mesh is provided for easy installation of a sticky board for Varroa testing. 4. Upper entrances for wintering are not required. 5. Entrance reducers are not required. The bottom board is provided with a 5/16" x 3" entrance which is sufficient for bee passage during the honey flow and ventilation is provided via the screen. 6. Bees do not cluster outside the hive in hot weather. 7. Bees can be moved without providing extra ventilation. 8. Wintering results are better due to the prolonged broodless period. The wintering bees are not stressed by having to keep brood warm and fed. More pollen is available for spring buildup. 9. Wet debris does not plug up the bottom boards at the end of winter. 10. The bees are claimed to be nicer to work with, possibly due to there being continuous light through the screen. The only downside mentioned is increased use of winter feed and, of course, the cost of building and installing the new boards. I thought it would be good to try a few of the boards last fall. Six were made and installed under fairly weak hives made up from late swarms and combined weak colonies. The results were encouraging, as all the screened hives survived the winter. I checked them in early April and found that the claim of late spring brood rearing was justified. The hives with screened bottom boards had only one or two frames of largely unsealed brood, while comparable hives with solid bottom boards and top entrances had two or three frames with sealed brood. In early May, the screened hives had an average of 3 frames of sealed brood. As of May 16 they had an average of 6 frames of sealed brood. The bottom boards did not require any cleaning while some of the solid ones were plugged with wet grunge. The bees did not seem any nicer to work with than those with regular bottom boards. I have been using sticky boards to monitor for mites under the screened hives. They are easy to install and remove (no mites so far!). My hives are located about 10 miles north of Edmonton. Since the article was written our honey has been extracted. The over wintered osbb hives produced about 10% less than conventional hives. I put three more hives on the osbb system in the spring and these hives produced about the same as the conventional ones. With a sample size of only six and three the honey figures probably don't mean much. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada Keith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: screened bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200011301442.JAA17973@listserv.albany.edu> Lloyd Spear says concerning screened btm boards:: >I don't know about "everyone", but I leave them on all year, and >personally know of two others who do likewise. Between us, many hundreds >of hives are so involved (I have 75). With temperatures of -20F, and >sometimes snow completely covering the hives, there is no noticeable >damage. All hives have generous upper entrances. Lloyd, don't you also wedge the inner cover so that the front has a 3/8" opening so that air flows through the hive? I remember you demonstrating this system at the Beekeeping Seminar held last March in Beaver, PA. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:32:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Chemistry of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/00 7:50:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, danhendan@YAHOO.COM writes: > Lots of good posts about the chemistry of honey, many > thanks. Someone asked "why". No one mentioned what I > consider one of the most dramatic products of > evolution: Honey! Dilute sucrose, nectar, ferments. > But bees require long-term storage. So they evolved a > practice of transforming it into a form, "dry" > fructose and glucose, which does not ferment. Doesn't > this blow your mind as it does mine? My mind is filled with wonder too. I get high watching my bees. Since you've expressed your religious faith, I ask for equal time. Yes, evolutionism is a religious faith, with an a priori assumption of no Creator, evangelistic zeal (them Vs us mentality), and a sense of wonder (which you expressed). Whenever evolutionists get into power, they pile ridicule on all who would disagree, and honest debate ends. I am not about to get into a point-by-point debate. Just simply to remind you, and others on this list, that the fantastic and wondrous complexity of our little charges can also be seen as evidence of an even more fantastic and wonderful Creator. I don't regard myself as a gullible person, so I find it pretty hard to conceive that my '57 Chevy could have been the result of an explosion in an ore pit. -Or even billions of explosions, over an immense span of time. And really, that Chevy is not very complex. It takes lots less faith to believe the Chevy had an intelligent maker. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:30:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: radioactive queens, AFB and copper sulphate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Three studies for the list relating to recent posts. Today someone asked if radioisotopes had been used to detect queens. There is a small short published study. Nelson, D. L. and W. F. Baldwin. 1977. The use of radioactive platinum-iridium (IR-192) tags for locating honey bee queens in colonies (Hymenoptera: Apidae). Canadian Entomologist. 109: 319-320. The introduction lists that a number of studies by where researchers have marked other insects with radioactivity to follow their movements. The introduction also cites a study where radioactive paint was used to mark queens, but it proved unsuitable. The study looked at fastening flattened platinum-iridium wires (1.5 x 0.5mm) to the thoraces of queens with a rubber adhesive. The specific activity of the tag was 25 microCi. The marked queens were put into 12 small nucs and their behavior and brood rearing was compared to that of 8 queens marked with nonradioactive tags in a separate set of nucs. After 4 weeks there was a trend towards smaller brood area among the marked queens, however the difference was not significant. There was no noticeable difference in behavior. A simulated test to compare how quickly queens could be located was done in supers without bees using the tag vs. visual inspection was done. An approximate 300% savings was realized in using the irradiat! ed tags. Although much more work was required to be done to investigate the safety, utility and economics of such a device for use by beekeepers, the work was discontinued, largely due to concerns by Canadian regulators of putting even such small amounts of radioactivity in a hive, where the tag could be lost and not be accounted for. The next study was in response to the thread on antibiotic medication alone, as a tool to manage clinical symptoms of AFB: Oldroyd, B.P., R.D. Goodman, M.A.Z. Hornitzky and D. Chandler. 1989. The effect on American foulbrood of standard oxytetracycline hydrochloride treatments for the control of European foulbrood of honeybees (Apis mellifera). Aust. J. Agric. Res. 40: 691-697. Summary: Twenty honeybee colonies were treated with various oxytetracycline hydrochloride (OTC) preparations at the time of inoculation with Bacillus larvae spores or after American foulbrood (AFB) disease signs had developed. Treatment with 1g OTC, at the time of inoculation delayed the development of AFB disease signs in four hives for periods between 2 months and 1 year. One colony so treated did not contract the disease. Colonies with a light AFB infection treated with 1g of OTC recovered from the disease in 3-4 weeks, but AFB disease signs reappeared in three of five colonies following season. Colonies with a well-established infection showed complete recovery from AFB disease signs after various OTC treatments. However, nearly all of these colonies developed disease signs in the following season. B. larvae was cultured from adult bee samples from colonies that were AFB disease-free at the time of sampling but subsequently developed disease signs, and from colonies that were AFB disease-free at the time of sampling but did not subsequently develop disease signs. The results show that recommended treatments for European foulbrood (EFB) effectively mask AFB disease, making it likely that beekeepers treating EFB also supress signs of AFB disease if it is present. As it is common practice in Australia to treat EFB prophylactically with OTC, an escalation of AFB in Australian hives is anticipated. >From that study I think it can be suggested that treating colonies with antibiotic, without taking any steps to remove diseased larvae, particularily when the disease is established, will not cure the disease. I do not believe this is inconsistent with Allen's experience. Allen medicates, but simultaneously does a good job of rewarding his crews to cull out any diseased comb they find in hives or in stacks of empty supers. The final study is the work that got people thinking about using cupric sulphate in feed as a way to control varroa: Guiraud, G., M. Nectoux, J-F. Andre, M. Bounias and D. Popeskovic. 1989. Evalution of cupric sulphate as an acaricide against Varroa jacobsoni O. J. Apic. Res. 28: 201-207. Summary Field trials on hives showed that cupric sulphate mixed at 0.25-1 g/l with sucrose syrup yielded significant control (>70% mortality) of the parasitic mite, Varroa jacobsoni, in low or moderate infestated areas, in spring-, autumn- and winter-feeding treatments. Pure sucrose may also exhibit a light effect (15-29% mortality). Syrups are freely injested up to 0.35 g/l and the uptake decreases at 0.5-1 g/l, with no uptake observed at higher concentrations. Only slight bee mortality (<0.1%) is observed at 1g/l (low volumes) or at 0.5 g/l (large volume). Copper residues in honey never significantly increased from natural levels, following total uptakes of up to 3g per hive, within 1 to 7 months delay. I was excited to discover this research and this year we conducted a trial to investigate biweekly drenching of colonies with 1 liter of syrup containing 0.4g/l of cupric sulphate. The levels of varroa, unfortunately, were never different than that of colonies left untreated and were much higher than that of colonies treated with Apistan. I am not sure what was the cause of the discrepancy between our results and the results from France. Our work is still preliminary, however we expect to have it submitted to be peer reviewed for publication next year. For everyone's information, cupic sulphate is not registered for use as an acaricide in North America and there have been no trials in North America, that I am aware of, that indicate that it controls mites, is safe for bees and leaves no residues in hive products. Regards Adony Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:48:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: bleach/water concentration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Camille Mueller wrote: > I have always understood that Clorox bleach was a little weaker than generic > bleach (5% vs 10%). What brand is 10%? My water supply is drawn from a pond and I use bleach to treat the water for drinking. I've purchased various brands of bleach, Clorox, Purex, and all manner of generic. They are all 5% hypochlorite (sp), I've never seen 10%. AL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:02:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Upper entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asked about my upper entrances. These are nothing more than a 1" piece of wood ripped (cut lengthwise) from a cedar shingle. Two of these are then nailed and glued to the long sides of an inner cover. The inner cover side with these on it are put down under the outer cover (in the normal manner). Since using these I no longer have bees clustering outside the hives in summer and do not get bees building burr comb between the inner and outer cover. I also do not have any hive deaths from winter/spring moisture. The only disadvantages are: 1. Burr comb is built up under the inner cover 2. The bees will not draw foundation or comb in the front of the hive (under the opening) and the hive body must be turned around if comb or foundation is to be drawn. I did not invest this method of creating an upper entrance, but don't understand why everyone doesn't use it! Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:33:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Keim Subject: Re: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Hello all: I have been following with interest the screened bottom board discussion. I understand the concept, and the reasoning, but if the screen may be installed year 'round, why could my bottom (assuming I am placing colonies on a pallet) not consist of simply .125" X .125" hardware fabric cut to the footprint of the Hive body, then be placed under it? Then could one place a .375" X 1.5" X "width of the Hive body" spacer board with a small piece of .25" hardware cloth stapled to the end grains to cover the gap (mouse guards) under the leading edge of the hive body (traditional entrance site) for winter/summer use and have the advantage of inclining for condensate run-off during over wintering? Before major flow occurs, the Hive bodies could be staggered for the field force. Sticky boards would not be as easy to install, however. This would be fairly cheap to build/implement, especially if it lessens the necessity of treatment. I apologize if my writing is less than descriptive. Please advise me of the error of my logic. John Keim Keim Apiaries Fairview, Kansas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:31:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: Upper entrances In-Reply-To: <200011301726.MAA25391@listserv.albany.edu> In answer to my question, Lloyd said: >Jim asked about my upper entrances. >These are nothing more than a 1" piece of wood ripped (cut lengthwise) >from a cedar shingle. Two of these are then nailed and glued to the long >sides of an inner cover. The inner cover side with these on it are put >down under the outer cover (in the normal manner). >Since using these I no longer have bees clustering outside the hives in >summer and do not get bees building burr comb between the inner and outer >cover. I also do not have any hive deaths from winter/spring moisture. Lloyd, with the 1 inch upper entrance (that would be covered by the top cover) how do the bees keep warm. With temps below minus 20 F, and heat rising, wouldn't the temperature inside the hive get cold enough to freeze bees on the outside of the cluster and also limit their ability to move stores around. Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:23:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bleach/water concentration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/30/00 11:54:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, lithar@MIDWEST.NET writes: > What brand is 10%? My water supply is drawn from a pond and I use bleach > to treat the water for drinking. I've purchased various brands of > bleach, Clorox, Purex, and all manner of generic. They are all 5% > hypochlorite (sp), I've never seen 10%. > Mostly for disenfecting they mean 9 parts water to 1 part Chlorox. The Chlorox itself is 5.25% hypochlorite. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:27:22 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Keim wrote: Hello all: I understand the concept, and the reasoning, but if the screen may be installed year 'round, why could my bottom (assuming I am placing colonies on a pallet) not consist of simply .125" X .125" hardware fabric cut to the footprint of the Hive body, then be placed under it? Please advise me of the error of my logic. Hello John and all, Your logic is correct but a fellow beekeeper Charles Robson of Phoenix,Arizona used a six inch square screened opening on around 3,000 of his pallets in 1979. He said he thought problems might be had with a larger screen by weakening the pallet. He used the screen year around and said he thought bees did better in transit. I can send you a close up picture of his pallets but i imagine they are like the ones you use. The square is dead center the bottom board. I think screening pallets as a IPM method for varroa control is useful. Maybe your design will be the design we all use. Two things to keep in mind. At 1.5 inch the varroa can't climb on bees and a way to keep moths from filling the area with crap. I wonder how long or how many mites it would take to fill a area the size of a bottom board say a inch deep with dead mites. In our area maybe you out to go 2 inches. Hope you found the ton of pollen supplement you asked me about. Hope next year is best ever for your operation! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: bees and cold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asked about bees becoming too cold as a result of a draft between the screened bottom and the "open" upper entrance. While it is largely a quibble, the 1" dimension refers to the width of the strip nailed to the inner cover. The height (depth) of this about 1/2" at its widest and nothing at its most narrow...just like a shingle. The 1/2" measurement is the maximum upper entrance and this gradually diminishes to nothing further back on the inner cover. It was formerly felt that bees needed to keep warm to live through the winter. The theory was that bees on the outside of the cluster gradually moved inside, and those inside moved out, so all the bees kept warm. Not true...bees that start the cluster on the outside largely stay on the outside all winter! They truly become so cold they cannot move, yet when it warms up they fully recover! Those who sting themselves with bees know this well, as they put the bees into the refrigerator until they are thoroughly chilled, take out a bee, put it on their skin, and when it warms up it stings! I just heard a photographer tell how he captures bees and wasps and chills them in the refrigerator. When chilled, he manipulates them into the poses he wants and takes the photo. He said he has "about an hour". Eventually the wasp or bee flies away, apparently unharmed. Jim also mentioned bees "moving stores around". They don't do this in winter. Instead, they move the cluster. To do this they need some amount of warmth. I don't know as anyone has reported on how warm it needs to be for the bees to move, but I have seen them move at am ambient temperature of about 50 degrees. My understanding is that they will die if they exhaust the food where the cluster is and can't move because it is too cold. Perhaps in the process of moving, the bees on the outside get to move to a warmer layer...(I don't know). Regardless, the wood of the beehive (or, any wood) has an R factor of 1 for every inch of wood. That is virtually no R factor. The honey and wax provide some more insulation, but not much. Researchers have found that the temperature on the outside of the cluster is very close to the temperature outside the hive. Yet, the bees survive. Cold, at least for some extended period of time (weeks?), does not hurt bees. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:32:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Chemistry of honey Rick Green asks, "You said fructose and glucose is "dry". Is this a scientific term? What do you mean by "dry"?"" I'm going to take a stab at answering this question according to my understand- ing and logic. If I understood correctly, when sucrose is inverted, there is the release of a water molecule. That would make glucose and fructose "drier" than sucrose is. On the other hand, when I buy sucrose in a bag at the store it seems pretty dry to me, while honey, on the other hand, has about 18% water in it? You can set sucrose out in a dish and it will stay dry. If you set honey out in a dish, it will absorb water from the air. That is honey's quality of being "hygroscopic" or absorbing moisture. In that way, even though it has some water in it already, it is "drier" than sucrose, because it will absorb more water than sucrose will. Still thinking about wet and dry, if you dehydrated honey, you would get a dry powder/crystalline mixture of glucose and fructose that is just a "dry" as a bag of cane sugar. I've seen dry honey for sale in the store before. People add it to their tea or coffee as a sweetener. And if you add water to sucrose, you make a syrup out of it, just like adding extra water to honey will make a "syrup" out of the honey. Depending on which way you are looking at it, one could be wet and the other dry. I suspect that the term "dry" when applied to honey versus sucrose is probably referring to the original idea that when sucrose is split into glucose and fructose by invertase that a by-product is the release of water molecules. If I got it wrong, somebody please correct me. Thanks. Layne Westover College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: screens for hive bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John asks why not just put a 1/8" screen on the bottom of the hive instead of having a separate piece of equipment: 1. Would not be able to reverse hive bodies 2. Would have less flexibility in interchanging equipment Otherwise, would work just fine. However, I would use 3/8" mesh, instead of 1/4" for the entrance area. I've never found a mouse that can get through 3/8" and bees go through 1/4" very slowly. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:51:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Upper entrances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jim and Everyone, Jim wrote in part: "Lloyd, with the 1 inch upper entrance (that would be covered by the top cover) how do the bees keep warm. With temps below minus 20 F, and heat rising, wouldn't the temperature inside the hive get cold enough to freeze bees on the outside of the cluster and also limit their ability to move stores around." The bees don't usually heat the hive outside of the cluster. Dr Haydak(sp) wintered colonies here in St Paul with screen tops and bottoms and they did fine as long as they had enough honey. Note they were under a roof ( picnic shelter ) so the snow did not fall directly into the colonies. He did it just to show that is could be done and that the bees did not heat the hive outside of the cluster. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:44:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Chemistry of honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> Gothoney@aol.com 11/30/00 07:49AM >>> wrote in part: "Thanks Dan for another attempt at why. You said fructose and glucose is "dry". Is this a scientific term? What do you mean by "dry"? The research refers to fructose and glucose being more stable, which presumably means that they are less likely to breakdown as sucrose does." I don't know about "dry" either but the osmotic pressure is determined by the number of "particles" not by their size so breaking sucrose into two simple sugars increases the osmotic pressure of the mixture. It is the osmotic pressure that preserves honey by "pulling" moisture out of yeast and bacterial cells so they can't grow. This is also why honey with too much moisture ferments - there is not enough sugar in the solution ( honey) to "pull" the water away from the yeasts and keep them from growing. Note trying to keep this non-technical but simplification sometimes results in loss of accuracy. This still does not answer the question of "why" they do it but gives one reason it is helpful. blane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:54:06 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Chemistry of honey In-Reply-To: <200011302014.PAA01149@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Layne 'Musashi' Westover wrote: > If I understood correctly, when sucrose is inverted, there is >the release of a water molecule. bad start; exactly wrong. Hydrolysis *destroys* one water molecule for each sucrose molecule that is split to give two monosaccharides (one glucose + one fructose molecule). The atoms of that water molecule are incorporated into the newly-created molecules and that water molecule is no more. I hasten to add that, as a contribution to the increase of osmotic pressure (expounded by Blane), this chemical destruction of water by its getting used up in hydrolysis is a very minor aspect. The main phenomenon, as I tried to point out and others have underlined, is that the concentration of 'water-loving' molecules is doubled by the splitting of sucrose to the two monoses. This is at least a reason, if not the only one, why honey is much more hygroscopic than dry sucrose. But such comparisons are not made by casual inspection. To open up just a glimpse of what causes chemistry students much work, you should distinguish 'chemical potential' (loosely analogous to voltage) or 'driving force' (I'm getting real slangy here) from chemical kinetics (the RATE at which a chemical reaction actually occurs. The two have no particular connection in fact. A reaction with a very strong driving force can show no discernible rate of reaction. The ultimate potential for a gram of sucrose to absorb water cannot be estimated from the sluggishness with which it initially does so, compared with the rate of uptake of water by a gram of 'invert sugar'. But let me put all this simple chemistry in some perspective please. The properties of honey are largely unexplained by these considerations of its main chemical constituents. (This reminds me of the fact that many important properties of the atmosphere are dominated by its trace constituents.) Professor Molan at the U of Waikato, the world's leading biochemist on honey, has been trying for many years to identify the trace components which cause the antibiotic properties. He is a very good biochemist but has made little progress on this analysis. Synergism between the many components of honey may well dominate the overall effects. The simple sugars are only the bare start of this glorious tangle. The hygroscopic nature of honey is a main cause of its matchless merit as a wound dressing; it takes water out of the wounded tissues at just right rate to inhibit microbial growth, facilitate debridement, etc; this process is only crudely explained by my first 3 paras above. Anyhow I would deprecate the use of the term 'dry' for any version of honey. R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:36:52 -0000 Reply-To: John Burgess Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Burgess Subject: Re: Varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman said: > > The material is not approved or licenced for bee medication in the UK, which > is why no products are available commercially. > Bickerstaffes Honey Ltd of Liverpool (Tel. 0151 5264532, e-mail mrbee@honeybeez.freeserve.co.uk ) supply organic cupric salts as a non-medicinal curative substance for honeybees. As Dave will know, this designation is a work-around to avoid formal licensing for other products used in beehives in the UK, such as thymol and formic acid. It is open to question whether or not it is appropriate for this product. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:16:05 -0000 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Organization: Westgate, waterville Subject: Re: Braula coeca Comments: To: pdillon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One Killarney Beekeeper was using Bayvarrol to detect whether his hives were infested with varroa. On removing the insert he found numerous brown dots on it. On checking he found that they were all Braula coeca. So Bayvarrol at least acts on the bee louse. Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- From: pdillon Sent: 30 November 2000 00:02 Subject: Braula coeca > Have the anti-V.j. treatments got rid of this wingless fly. > What do others say! > > Peter > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:50:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Keim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Lloyd replied: John asks why not just put a 1/8" screen on the bottom of the hive instead of having a separate piece of equipment: 1. Would not be able to reverse hive bodies 2. Would have less flexibility in interchanging equipment Otherwise, would work just fine. However, I would use 3/8" mesh, instead of 1/4" for the entrance area. I've never found a mouse that can get through 3/8" and bees go through 1/4" very slowly. Hi Lloyd, I already asked Blaine this, but see what you think.... NOW for something totally radical: Could I just put down .375 hardware fabric for the hive body footprint in the winter, which would allow the bees to come and go through the space of the pallet (as long as I kept the snow and the weeds clear), then stagger the hive bodies when I reverse in the spring (before the first major flow)? i.e. my bottom 'board' would consist solely of a piece of .375 mesh hardware fabric???? Thanks. John Keim Keim Apiaries Fairview, Kansas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:00:42 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: fw: Canada keep info on bees a secret Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: Canada keep info on bees a secret To: CONS-SPST-BIOTECH-FORUM@LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG edited WHAT'S THE BUZZ?: A LEADING BEE SCIENTIST GETS A GOVERNMENT RUNAROUND November 15, 2000 Canadian Business, pg.128 Andrew Nikiforuk At a recent bee conference, Mark Winston, one of Canada's preeminent biologists and a professor at Simon Fraser University, was cited as asking a fellow from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency if genetically engineered crops could harm bees. The story says that Winston, one of the world's top bee experts, wanted to know if any research had been done on pollen from engineered crops, such as canola, and what effects engineered proteins might have on the insect's behavior and survival. The CFIA spokesman confidently replied that pollen from genetically modified organisms (GMOs) didn't harm bees. OK. But being a good scientist, Winston wanted some data. So he sent an e-mail to CFIA and asked the man to substantiate his claims with sound scientific research, a normal ho-hum request in the world of science. The story says Winston knew something was wrong when his questions got bumped to a higher authority. He finally got some answers--but not the ones he expected. Yes, there had been some tests on bees, but CFIA couldn't tell Winston what GM crops were tested. That was ``proprietary information.'' Nor could it disclose the source of the study, experimental protocols or even the results. According to Winston, one CFIA gatekeeper was quoted as declaring, "Secrecy is business as usual as far as we're concerned.'' The story says that Winston favors informed and balanced debate on technologies that could arguably work wonders as well as foster great calamities. But vigorous debate can't take place in the absence of basic information. And Winston finds CFIA's reluctance to answer legitimate scientific questions about health and safety alarming, stating, "If we don't have access to objectively collected data on issues of critical importance to all Canadians, how can we decide what is safe and what isn't?'' Winston, who is now writing a book on the murky world of genetically engineered organisms, also can't figure out why CFIA would choose to declare data on the number of bees harmed by GM canola pollen a top government secret. The story goes on to say that Winston has given up waiting for the government to answer his basic bee questions and has started a research program of his own, adding, "It's really bad when your government has some data and you can't see it. That's just a really sad comment on the state of our regulatory authorities.'' - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - For SC email list T-and-C, send: GET TERMS-AND-CONDITIONS.CURRENT to listserv@lists.sierraclub.org - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 19:49:37 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Braula coeca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't seen Braula since first treating for varroa with bayvarol. Chris Slade ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:01:54 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beekeepers: Some people I contacted on the internet other that bee-l have expressed = their concern about using experimental treatments on bees. My question = on the study was one of curiostiy only. Although I thought the study was = intriguing, I certainly have no intention of pouring copper solutions = into my bee feeders. I hope I did not give that impression. Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:56:46 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: bees and cold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It was formerly felt that bees needed to keep warm to live through the > winter. The theory was that bees on the outside of the cluster gradually > moved inside, and those inside moved out, so all the bees kept warm. Not > true...bees that start the cluster on the outside largely stay on the > outside all winter! They truly become so cold they cannot move, yet when it > warms up they fully recover! My past reading indicates that a bee kept at a cold temperature for an extended period of time will eventually starve since it is unable to process food even already in the stomach. Again even recent articles suggest that there is a rotation of bees from outside the cluster to inside. Why do you declare that this is not so? Research, observation, or? Tom - - - - - - "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:51:42 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: bees and cold MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jim also mentioned bees "moving stores around". They don't do this in > winter. Instead, they move the cluster. To do this they need some amount > of warmth. I don't know as anyone has reported on how warm it needs to be > for the bees to move, but I have seen them move at am ambient temperature of > about 50 degrees. If the bees are raising brood during the winter they will not be able to move the cluster, as your following comments recognize. If it is warm enough for them to move around the hive, what makes you think that they won't move stores nearer to the brood nest? Is this research results or observation? I am interested because here in Alaska we normally have 5 to 6 months when an uninsulated hive will have little (normally none) time when the ambient temperature is above 44 degrees F. You might guess wintering is still in the experimental stage, but we have had some successes. > My understanding is that they will die if they exhaust > the food where the cluster is and can't move because it is too cold. > Perhaps in the process of moving, the bees on the outside get to move to a > warmer layer...(I don't know). Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:04:42 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Divine Honey Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's no question that honey is produced God's way, and I also hope = you can figger out how to do it man's way, and if you don't I bet the bees keep = on makin honey. While in the contemplating mode how about Divine beeswax a burnable fuel made from wet flower nectar in some Divine process by = the honey bees. =20 Hawaii Walter ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Green To: One > chemist-beekeeper suggested that two sugar molecules replacing the one > sucrose molecule causes the ripening honey to be more concentrated = which > helps prevent spoilage. Hopefully we can understand this and not = throw our > hands up and call it god's way. I too am amazed at the intricacies of what > the honey bees do. >