From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:37 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05178 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00261 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00261@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:30 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0012B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 66429 Lines: 1326 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 04:24:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Alexander the Great MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << "This reminds me of the story ofAlexander the Great. He died about332BC in the Mesopotamian region ofBabylon. However one of his generalswanted him buried in Alexandria Egypt.They shipped his body in honey and itarrived months later in nice shape. >> This sounds unlikely as it stands, as the body fluids would dilute the honey, which would then ferment. However mead might be possible. Nelson's body was brought home from Trafalgar in a cask of spirits. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 03:55:56 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Thurber's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Harrisons: The Washington State Beekeepers' Association has obtained Roy Thurber's heirs' permission to print a second edition of "Bee Chats, Tips and Gadgets" and is working on revisions. That was the first beekeeping book I ever read and I consider myself one of "Roy's boys" even though he had passed away before I got involved. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:51:25 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Genetically-Modified material In-Reply-To: <200012051757.MAA21372@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lloyd Spear wrote: >We should probably drop this subject soon How could that happen? The way things are going, we can expect a ragged series of concerns which affect beekeeping, and they should be discussed, shouldn't they? >IMHO, governments have little to no role in matters such as this. Let the >markets decide That is essentially what has happened in some countries e.g. Argentina. In the USA, there has been a form of regulatory control (mainly by the FDA), but this has exerted little real effect on the deployment of GM crops. 'The markets' have not worked to protect people, or bees, from possible harm. And if labelling of GM food is prohibited, how could the market work? What is wanted by those who oppose labelling is not any functioning market but just agribusiness getting its way against the desires of consumers for an informed market. >Today in the New York Times, a left-leaning newspaper if ever there were >one This assessment is laughable if taken over the whole range of newspapers worldwide. >, there is an article titled Gene Altered Foods: A Case Against Panic. >The opening paragraph reads: >"Ask American consumers whether they support the use of biotechnology in >food and agriculture and nearly 70 percent say they do. But ask the >question another way, 'Do you approve of genetically engineered (or >genetically modified) foods?' and two thirds say they do not. Yet there is >no difference between them. The techniques involved and the products that >result are identical." This is simply false. The category 'biotechnology' includes, but is not restricted to, GM. There are important types of biotech that are nothing to do with GM. >The article goes on the point out that "people have been genetically >modifying foods and crops for tens of thousands of years" This too is false. The verb 'genetically modify' connotes the novel artificial methods of transferring genes between species, or even between kingdoms, as does not happen in traditional breeding & selection. These novel methods of gene-transfer sometimes provoke novel unforeseen harmful side-effects, and have indeed done so in several cases. >the current "panic" has been caused by deliberate misinformation and >misunderstandings. By far the larger source of this is the propaganda from the GM trade, such as Lloyd is here quoting. To equate GM to what has been going on for thousands of years is a statement made with intent to deceive. True, some opponents of GM do make mistakes. Some of them are ignorant, and indeed it is a topic which requires some study. The websites I've referred this list to will give you reliable info on it. >Such functions include "the ability to resist the >attack of insects, withstand herbicide treatments or produce foods with >higher levels of essential nutrients." more PR deceit; the first two are the main types of GM crops at the moment, but the last is only a hope not a tested reality. Indeed, the only nutritionally-enhanced GM food of any visibility, the yellow rice containing beta-carotene, is many years away from possible commercial deployment. > "If the >most common sources of food allergens - peanuts, shellfish, celery, nuts, mild >or eggs - had to pass through an approval process..., they would never make it >to market." Thought-experiments about what would supposedly have happened are of very little use. >Beekeepers need to be able to have some familiarity with the GM controversy >as they will inevitably have to face questions, just as they do with the use >of insecticides. Those interested in reading the full article in The New >York Times will find it on page F8 of today's Science section, or at >www.NYTimes.com. The article is mere PR. The NYT should not print such propaganda. > I am not worried that humankind or our environment will be >poisoned in the meantime. That could be said only by one who has not looked into the hazards. Again I advise listees to study the facts and informed opinions at www.psrast.org R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:55:09 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Thurber's book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would urge the Washington State Beekeepers Association to refrain from revisions. The book is great as it stands. Any revisions which "might" update the information, would certainly dilute the Roy Thurber content. Tom dan hendricks wrote: > Hi, Harrisons: The Washington State Beekeepers' > Association has obtained Roy Thurber's heirs' > permission to print a second edition of "Bee Chats, > Tips and Gadgets" and is working on revisions. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:28:08 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: GM Molecular biologist James Shapiro and his colleagues refused to participate any further in what is perhaps the most threatening of all technological enterprises so far -- genetic engineering, the creation of evolutionary new forms of life. Even if this technology were neutral, they argued, the basic control over scientific work in the United States was in the hands of a small minority of industrialists and bureaucrats who have always exploited science for harmful purposes so as to increase their own power. They believed that scientists, and everyone else for that matter, should actively work for radical political changes and that if this means that the progress of science itself may be interrupted that is something we will have to accept. Shapiro resigned from his post, but few have followed his lead. So far, all attempts to bring genetic engineering under social control have failed. To quote the Nobel laureate David Baltimore, "Contemporary research in molecular biology has grown up in an era of almost complete permissiveness. Its practitioners have been allowed to decide their own priorities and have met with virtually no restraints on the types of work they can do." A few eminent scientists have continued to warn us of the terrible perils of genetic engineering. Erwin Chargaff of Columbia University writes of the "awesome irreversibility of what is being contemplated... You can stop splitting the atom, you can stop visiting the moon; you can stop using aerosols; you may even decide not to kill entire populations by the use of a few bombs, but **you cannot recall a new form of life.**... An irreversible attack on the biosphere is something so unheard-of, so unthinkable to previous generations, that I could only wish that mine had not been guilty of it." Liebe Cavalieri of Cornell University, warns that "a single unrecognized accident could contaminate the entire earth with an ineradicable and dangerous agent that might not reveal its presence until its deadly work was done." But Chargaff and Cavalieri represent only a small minority of the scientists involved in genetic engineering which provides the basis of an increasingly big and powerful industry whose irresponsible activities are now totally out of control. Our inability to control technological intrusions into the workings of the ecosphere constitutes an ever growing threat to human survival as the scale of the interventions increases. -- from "The Way: an Ecological World View" Edward Goldsmith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote or quoted- in part: "they argued, the basic control over scientific work in the United States was in the hands of a small minority of industrialists and bureaucrats who have always exploited science for harmful purposes so as to increase their own power. They believed that scientists, and everyone else for that matter, should actively work for radical political changes and that if this means that the progress of science itself may be interrupted that is something we will have to accept." I am concerned about statements such as "in the hands of a small minority of industrialists and bureaucrats" and to politicize science and "interrupt" it. This smacks more of hysteria and witch hunting than a rational approach to an important problem. I am in favor of controls, but the approach noted worries me a great deal and is as harmful or more so than the problem it addresses. The opposition to GM was sufficient to cause a major recall of GM corn in consumer food. It was not hushed up. So that "small minority" is not as powerful as it seems to be made out to be. That is as long as we live in a free society. Radical politicization would go a long way to ending that. In this country, by this self same mindset of radical politicization, we have successfully killed nuclear power except in the US Navy. But Navy ships keep safely steaming without problems while California is on the verge of massive power failures because of opposition to power plants of any kind. Do we really want this mindset to also control our food supply? Or beekeeping? Bill Truesdell Bath, ME -- Learned Hand was right: "[This] much I think I do know--that a society so riven that the spirit of moderation is gone, no court can save; that a society where that spirit flourishes, no court need save; that in a society which evades its responsibility by thrusting upon the courts the nurture of that spirit, that spirit in the end will perish." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michele Arquette Subject: Re: Genetically-Modified material Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Our local bee club for our October meeting had a rep from Monsanto corp. speak to us about this very subject As a consumer I was very interested , I listened to everything this person said who obviously was there to calm any fears or stop any misconceptions. I still made my own informed decision ( which I will not reveal here). But I ignored opinion and read and listened to the science. This whole subject and the back and forth reminds me of something my father use to say . NEVER believe anything you hear and only half of what you see. Maybe the New York times is a good source for some of you ,I say this not having the read the article, but it is not a peer reviewed. We should all form our own opinion based on the best facts/science available. Remember also everyone is entitled to their own opinion and we should respect that no matter if we agree or not. Inform yourself before you decide and your purchasing dollars can make your approval or disapproval known. A local store he! re quit selling the GM foods available because too many customers had questions they could not answer. So the power of the mighty dollar won as it usually does. Michele ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 19:58:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Honey mineral content Hello All, Greetings from the cold midwest. Temps -5F. tonight with -40 to -60 windchills. More snow tomorrow. Blizzard conditions 100 miles north. I left Texas Saturday and the temperature was 62F.. Maybe the bees are better off than the beekeeper this week. Awhile back we had a discussion about the difference between light and dark honey. Because i sell honey in health food stores I found they allways want the dark honey because *they say* its better for you. I knew i had seen a study but couldn't remember the book i had seen the study in. After quite a bit of looking today I found the study and will post. Beekeeping in the U.S. Ag. Handbook No. 335 copyright 1968 pg. 60 *Schuette* at the University of Wisconsin examined the mineral content of 490 samples of light and dark honey. They reported the following average values: light honey PPM dark honey PPM potassium--------------------------205---------------------- 1,676--- Chlorine---------------------------52------------------------113------ Sulfur-----------------------------58------------------------100----- Calcium----------------------------49-------------------------52------ Phosphorus-------------------------35-------------------------47------ Sodium-----------------------------18-------------------------76----- Magnesium--------------------------19-------------------------35------ Silica-----------------------------22-------------------------36------ Iron-------------------------------2.4------------------------9.4------ Manganese--------------------------.30------------------------4.09----- Copper-----------------------------.29-------------------------.56----- Comment: I don't know if dark honey is healthier but i will say according to the study the dark honey does contain higher mineral content in all minerals tested. I believe the above report when shown to the general public around 1968 caused the health food stores to ask for the darker honey. Health food stores are quick to tell you 85% of the minerals are gone from our soils and are not replaced by large scale farming methods. Sincerely, Bob Harrison P.S. Many of you email asking to use my posts in your newsletters. Please do. I am tired tonight as i have been on the road hauling bees but if someone wants to post this chart on Sci ag,IBL or Florida Beekeepers for me please do . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 07:49:42 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Gene Modification Greetings I am sorry, but science cannot be separated from life and life involves politics. Science without a moral and social conscience is like a car with no driver. Science has gotten so technical that only specialists in each field can comprehend the experiments and results. So we must rely on these very people to monitor themselves. Can those people foresee the consequences of what they do? Did Warwick Kerr foresee the effect of introducing a few queen bees into Brazil? A recent Scientific American devoted much ink to its cover story: The BioTech Gold Rush. That's how *they* see it: big money to be made from altering the basic genetic codes of organisms. Is this harmless? Do *you* know? Must we wait and see? *I think* these people are disturbing one of the most sacred areas of life and we will all suffer the consequences. Peter Borst Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 08:27:08 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Honey mineral content MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: You may wish to read the following : Dark Honey Has More Illness-Fighting Agents Than Light Honey http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/07/980708085352.htm Keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:45:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Enviromental left MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of a recent message disparaging efforts to continue progress in providing food to the world (albeit, at a profit) Bill said "Do we really want this mindset to also control our food supply? Or beekeeping?" I couldn't agree more. It seemed to me that the message Bill referred to epitomized the use of scare tactics to achieve ones goal. Extremists, such as the environmental left, serve a useful role when they provide information and focus for the consideration of those who are more moderate. They do a real disservice, and do not advance their cause, but trying to scare others into submission. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 13:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: GMO discussions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It seems to me that the GMO discussions have gone past where they pertain to beekeeping. That GMOs impact beekeeping and HOW they impact beekeeping is pertinent and appropriate to BEE-L. The morality and ethics of GMOs, in the editor's humble opinion, seem to be beyond the scope of informed discussion of bee biology and beekeeping issues. Please try to keep the GMO discussion directly related to beekeeping. There are other forums dedicated to the discussion of ethics and morality. Aaron Morris - wearing the editor's hat. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:01:15 +1300 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Photo required: bee beard In-Reply-To: <00Dec13.073632nzdt.115201@gateway.boppoly.ac.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've had an email contact from someone desperate to get a good photo of someone with a bee beard for a presentation (tomorrow!). The only one I've got is pretty grainy, being a scanned image from a magazine cover. I'd appreciate any images any of you might be willing to provide - if there's some range and diversity, I'll put them up on a page and post the URL here. Please send them as attachments direct to me at email below, not to the list... Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:16:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Thanks Greetings all, I just wanted to take this opportunity to wish Happy Holidays to all of you on the BEE-L list. As I reflect back over the previous year, I am thankful that such a list exists to allow us access to a much wider array of beekeeping styles and information than we could find in our own little part of the world. I have gleaned a lot of helpful and useful information from all of the contributors. Information that I gathered from the list was passed on to a multitude of fellow beekeepers, many of whom do not have access to this wonderful form of media. At times, tempers may flare, opinions may differ, and we may grow tired of rehashing old ideas, but I find it difficult to think that anyone of us would turn our back on a fellow beekeeper in need. As this historic year draws to a close, I want to wish each and everyone Happy Holidays and a wonderful New Year! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:37:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Honey Exposed to Stainless Steel, Aluminum, and Plastic Please forgive these very basic questions. I'm new at beekeeping and just can't seem to find good sound answers. I've noticed that when I eat a spoonful of honey with a stainless steel spoon, I can really taste the metal. I tried several different brands of stainless steel spoons and the taste was always very strong. Thinking that most honey processing equipment and storage tanks are made of stainless steel, I thought I must be imagining things. So, I tried a plastic spoon. No metallic taste!! Now I know this must sound dumb to a lot of you, but why use stainless steel if it leaves a metallic taste? What's wrong with plastic tanks, troughs, etc...? The cost sure would be a lot less. An extractor could have a plastic drum just like most modern washing machines do - couldn't it? I've also noticed that many cooking pots and utensils are made of aluminum. I don't seem to notice a metallic taste when I use aluminum either. I know aluminum reacts with anything with a high pH, that's how soap puts the pits into your favorite aluminum pots, but mild acids don't react much, if any. What's wrong with using aluminum for settling tanks, extractors, and uncapping catch troughs? I'm sure the answers are really simple, but I'm not seeing it. What do all of you think? Thanks for your patients Mark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 06:05:14 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eddy Lear Subject: Re: Honey Exposed to Stainless Steel, Aluminum, and Plastic In-Reply-To: <200012130217.VAA12963@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've noticed that when I eat a spoonful of honey with a stainless steel spoon, I can really taste the metal. It shows you how sensitive your taste buds are. When tasting honey, a plastic spoon is just about the best. As far as I'm aware, there are no metals leached out into the honey from stainless steel, but its the contact of your tongue on the spoon. What's wrong with plastic tanks, troughs, etc...? The cost sure would be a lot less. An extractor could have a plastic drum just like most modern washing machines do - couldn't it? Here in South Africa use of Ultra Low Molecular Weight Polyethylene) ULMWPE is commonly used as the material for tanks, extractors, etc.. I use it even for mead making up to 5 000 litres. Of course one must be careful to use natural plastic as in the coloured varieties, the compounds to reduce UV damage etc. can leach out into the product. PVC is also used extensively. I've also noticed that many cooking pots and utensils are made of aluminum. I don't seem to notice a metallic taste when I use aluminum either. I know aluminum reacts with anything with a high pH... Honey has a low pH. Some honeys I use are as low as 3,5. Your stomach I'm told has a pH of 3. I used aluminium at one time just to melt down bees wax and I soon found that the containers developed holes. Stainless is the top of the range for food quality. Regards Eddy Lear South Africa www.triponline.net follow the lead to children's entertainment, Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa, Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 05:10:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eddy Lear Subject: Re: Queens and swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lear, Eddy(ENL) Sent: 04 December 2000 12:10 PM To: 'Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology' Subject: RE: Queens and swarms Chris Slade wrote: I agree with Bob when he says that laying queens can fly. I have seen it happen many times when a hive is disturbed. However I do not agree with his (Bob) statement that the queen and she alone controls when the swarm leaves the hive. In that case it was definitely the workers who were the dominant force behind the swarm and not the queen. I would like to agree to some extent by Chris' observations, but on the other hand I will acknowledge that our bees can be very different to their European counterparts. I have been running an experiment on my farm to see whether my hypothesis about contraction or invasion of varroa is valid. As a bit of background, a few of us have found that when manipulating colonies in a prolific swarming flow such as when our bees are in the "aloes", queens are quite often distributed through the hives of the apiary. Hives were marked and the queens found and marked. After two weeks the honey was harvested. A few days later we did a search for the queens and found nearly 50% of the queens were in different hives to which they were originally. Some hives were queenless. It was assumed that during the harvesting that the queen had become airborne through fright or even as the result of shaking out of the honey super. One of our scientists recently undertook some experiments to determine whether bees from one race drift into another race's colony and/or do they invade. It was certainly found that A.m. capensis invaded, whereas A.m. scutelata were drifters. But there are other factors which could be involved here but not part of my discussion. Last year around September, a beekeeper who is a major migratory within my district warned me that he had varroa in his hives. I then unfortunately found varroa in one of my hives in December. On inspection I visited my hives again in February and was astounded not to find varroa. On closer examination of the brood area I found an abnormal number of Bee scorpions (Ellingsenuis fulleri). I suspected that the contamination of my hive was due to the drifting behaviour of drones, and that somewhere along the line a drone from an infected colony had found its way into mine. I therefore decided to spread the hives out on my farm so that bees of one colony would not drift from one hive to another. I also installed a modified queen excluder (what I call a drone trap) on the front of my hive entrance. I did a similar thing on my observation hive, except no drone trap. What the drone trap does; it allows drones out of the hive but not back in again. The colony in the observation hive tried absconding about six times. For some reason we have not had much success in retaining A.m, scutelata in OHs which have one frame above the other and I don't know of anyone who has kept bees in such a hive for more than one season. There is better success when multiple frames are used. Each time the bees swarmed the queen could not get out and so the bees returned. It was interesting to see just prior to their act of absconding how the bees emptied all the honey reserves and then proceeded to open the capped brood pulling all the pupas out, leaving a mess on the floor. The Bee scorpions were also noticed in abnormal numbers hiding in the cracks between the woodwork and the glass. Finally the bees killed the queen as their last resort before finally swarming. I am well aware that what takes place in these OH's is not natural and therefore one cannot draw too many conclusions, but from what I have observed, the queens have little to say about swarming and that it is in the bees design to behave in their prescribed pattern. My conclusion is that bees are neither democratic or autocratic, maybee theocratic. Eddy Lear South Africa PS. Since our season is still in its first half, I cannot say whether my method of trying to keep varroa at bay is working, but to date none of my bee colonies have been infiltrated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 09:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Honey Exposed to Stainless Steel, Aluminum, and Plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > I've noticed that when I eat a spoonful of honey with a > stainless steel > spoon, I can really taste the metal. I tried several > different brands of > stainless steel spoons and the taste was always very strong. > Thinking that > most honey processing equipment and storage tanks are made of > stainless > steel, I thought I must be imagining things. So, I tried a > plastic spoon. > No metallic taste!! Stainless should not give you a metallic taste at all! You may have a high iron content in your water. Try soaking a spoon in lemon juice overnight in the refrigerator and then wiping off the liquid with a paper towel in the mourning. Then use the spoon to taste the honey. > I've also noticed that many cooking pots and utensils are made of > aluminum. I don't seem to notice a metallic taste when I use aluminum > either. I know aluminum reacts with anything with a high pH, > that's how > soap puts the pits into your favorite aluminum pots, but mild > acids don't > react much, if any. What's wrong with using aluminum for > settling tanks, > extractors, and uncapping catch troughs? > In home brewing you always avoid aluminum due to the metal taste it leaves. I am pretty sure honey will react in a mild way with aluminum. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 11:38:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Mitchell Subject: diazinon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Having moved twice in one month (now to my permanent digs), I have been unable to follow bee-l as regularly as I would like (let alone contribute to Bee Culture as much as I would prefer). I came across the following in an envrionmental media listserv (suggested stories). Haven't been able to research it as to the ramifications (if any) for beekeepers. Here it is: ORGANOPHOSPHATES: EPA KEEPS REINING THEM IN On Dec. 5, 2000, EPA announced new restrictions on the insecticide diazinon. This comes 6 months after the agency restricted Dursban (chlorpyrifos), another common nerve-attacking organophosphate. Environmentalists question EPA's policy of letting companies keep selling these chemicals to use up existing stocks, and are urging major retailers to pull diazinon and Dursban products immediately. http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/op/diazinon.htm. Back in June 2000, EPA and pesticide mfrs. agreed to end home and school uses of Dursban by the end of 2000. However, existing inventories can be sold and used for years beyond the ban's start. As of Dec. 1, 2000, pesticides with the active ingredient chlorpyrifos could no longer list popular home and garden applications as legal uses on the label. But mfrs. can sell inventories with the old label to retailers until Feb. 1, 2001. Also, stores can sell existing stocks until Dec. 1, 2001. EPA may also review or restrict additional pesticides, including pyrethrins (which are based on chrysanthemum extract): http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/citizens/neurotoxicdata.htm. Check local hardware or garden supply store shelves for diazinon products such as Spectracide, Knoxout, or Basudin; as well as the Dursban and Empire brands. Read the label's fine print for active ingredients. Ask local school districts or mosquito control programs how many gallons they have in reserve and whether they intend to use it up, as allowed. Consumers may hoard remaining stocks of either chemical, especially in bug-infested parts of the South. Horticulture programs, gardening clubs, and termite-troubled homebuilders may have strong opinions. Happy Holidays! John Mitchell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 10:45:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Queens and swarms In-Reply-To: <200012131009.FAA20713@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Eddy Lear wrote: On inspection I visited my > hives again in February and was astounded not to find varroa. On closer > examination of the brood area I found an abnormal number of Bee scorpions > (Ellingsenuis fulleri). The bee scorpions have been mentioned before in messages about varroa. Do they prey on varroa or do they just live with them? Could they be a possible biological control? Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 12:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adony Melathopoulos Subject: Re: diazinon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, The review of chlorpyrofos (Dursban and Furadan) products is also extending to Canada. Furadan is used on the Canadian prairies for the management of lygus bugs and has resulted in a number of bee poisioning incidences. On the basis of the re-evaluation the US the manufactures of chlorpyrofos, Dow AgroScience, Cheminova and Makteshim, are voluntarily cancelling their home and garden registrations. The agricultural uses, namely Furadan, are expected to follow. The reason the manufactuers are prompting voluntary cancellation is that new data has come to light which suggests increased neurotoxic sensitivity of fetuses to chlorpyrofos. New margins of safety adopted by EPA requires that no person should be exposed to any more than 1/1000 of the level at which no effect occurs in experimental animals. The stringent new safety margins combined with the new data will likely make continued registration unlikely. For anyone wanting more information on the re-evaluation of chlorpyrifos in Canada visit the Pest Management Regulatory Agency web site; www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pmra-arla The re-evaluation note number is REV2000-01. Adony Melathopoulos Apiculture Biotechnologist Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada Beaverlodge Research Farm Box CP 29 Beaverlodge, Alberta CANADA T0H 0C0 T +1 780 354 5130 F +1 780 354 8171 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:04:08 +1300 Reply-To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Bee beard photos... Comments: cc: Anne Holding In-Reply-To: <00Dec14.080214nzdt.115202@gateway.boppoly.ac.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks to the range of people who assisted with the photos of bee beards. I've placed a copy of the photos at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/beards.htm and will add to them anytime I can get another! Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:07:09 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Bee beard photos... Comments: To: nickw@beekeeping.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Nick, Those are great photos but you are missing one of the best bee beards photos of all. When Sue Colby and Tim got married at the wedding they did a double bee beard. Email Sue and maybe she would send you the picture. Maybe a Bee-L person has the picture. The picture was in the American Bee Journal. Unlike some of your photos in the Sue & Tim photo both are sporting big smiles. Bob Nick Wallingford wrote: Thanks to the range of people who assisted with the photos of bee beards. I've placed a copy of the photos at http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/beards.htm and will add to them anytime I can get another! Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:05:47 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: diazinon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John and all, The strange thing about what the EPA is doing is these chemicals work really well. What the public is left with does not work well. There is nothing which works as well to replace them with. The lady at our drugstore told me last week the FDA is pulling many of the over the counter cold medicenes which work really good and making you go to a doctor and get a prescription. The brand i was buying is the only over the counter medicene which will dry up my runny nose when i get a cold. Hmmm. John Mitchell posted: ORGANOPHOSPHATES: EPA KEEPS REINING THEM IN This really isn't new news. The reason given beekeepers was to protect the environment. Properly dispose of strips and we won't have a problem they say. My instructions say place in a regular plastic trash bag and put in a land fill. Hey I can't even put latex paint in my land fill. If any chemical turns up in honey its use will be gone. How about the waiting 6 weeks before supering with Terramycin and only two weeks with Coumaphous. Hard to figure about government rules. EPA may also review or restrict additional pesticides, including pyrethrins (which are based on chrysanthemum extract): http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/citizens/neurotoxicdata.htm. This statement cought my eye. What are our organic growers going to do? In their opinion organic and chrysanthemum go hand in hand. Check local hardware or garden supply store shelves for diazinon products such as Spectracide. Spectracide I have used many times in years gone past on my small fruit tree orchard. Spectracide was the weakest chemical available for the home orchard. On the label the fruit could be eaten the next day if washed. Ortho and all the others said two weeks. Spectracide wouldn't control pests like the other products but according to the label was less harmful to the person putting on the spray. I READ all labels. There are 19 commercial orchards within 30 minutes of my farm and none would even consider using spectracide because they say its not strong enough and has to be reapplied after a rain. Of course they WILL be able to buy the strong stuff if they buy a special permit. Average size of those orchards is 200 acres and they spray about 14-15 times a year with a pesticide stronger than spectracide. I guess the guy with a couple fruit trees is out of luck. As a final note all the banned most dangerous chemicals banned in the U.S. (eleven I believe from memory including DDT) can be used in Mexico and less then 1 % of produce is checked comming into the U.S.. Without the use of some of these organophosphates in the U.S. certain crops will not be grown. They will then be grown in Mexico using organophosphates and shipped to the U.S.. The E.P.A. knows what i am saying is true as many growers have allready went south of the border. I believe and stand to be corrected if incorrect but I believe the EPA is the 4 or 5th largest branch of government now. Wouldn't it be great if we really could *legislate all our problems away like those in Washington seem to think can be done.* Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:38:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Beekeeping Topics Greetings all, Recently, I was elected to serve as the President of our local association. I want to call upon the list to help me out a bit. I was wondering what kinds of topics other clubs/associations cover at their monthly meetings. Most of our members are beyond the beginner stage. What kinds of topics would people like to learn about? I would like to put together a years worth of informative and exciting programs. I am hoping to get some great ideas from this post. I realize that the responses wont appeal to everyone on the list, so could you please send your ideas directly to me via my email address: smoser@ruralcom.net Thanks for your help in this request. Sincerely Scott Moser ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Small Hive Beetle Trap Hello All, I have been looking in my spare time for a solution to the small hive beetle problem since I returned from my trip to Florida a few weeks ago. After quite a bit of thought about the problem I decided a trap would be best. One which could be used in the honey house and also in the hive or HIVE AREA. After much research I wasn't able to find a trap ever devised for a small hive beetle. Coumaphous under a piece of *cardboard* works but the only attraction is being able to hide. My trap would be baited. With what and what chemical could be used? I was sure Coumaphous could be the killing agent but wasn't sure about the bait. I found the bait quite by accident. Many beekeepers know I raise (Osmia Lignaria) solitary bees. I found while researching solitary bees that the Alfalfa leafcutter bee was being preyed upon by two beetles years ago. A species of grain beetle (Tribolium madens) and several species of carpet beetles (Trogoderma). I believe these beetles to be of the same size as the small hive beetle because nesting hole size of Alfalfa LC bees is 5/16. SHB size is approx 1/4 inch. To find information on the trap the USDA came up with to eliminate these beetles you need to go back over 30 years and search through solitary bee records as I did. Below is the information that I found: Both groups of beetles can be baited from the nests and killed with DDT (what they used 30 years ago.)- treated pollen pellets taken from pollen traps on honeybee hives. Coumaphous powder could probably be rubbed on the pollen from the strips or the checkmite strip could simply be placed across the trap entrance. The pellets can be placed under the nesting material (solitary bees nesting materials) where the bees cannot contact them or in boards with shallow grooves or corrugated cardboard with flutes too NARROW for the BEES to enter. In my opinion the trap baited with pollen could be placed in areas of the honey house floor. USDA would have to OK in the U.S. Because most honey supers contain almost no pollen I believe SHB would go directly to the traps. We have not got the SHB in Missouri yet and I am only putting out information I have found and a few of my ideas for solving the problem. Because Coumaphous is registered for use against SHB and has shown to be effective I believe Coumaphous might be the best chemical to be used in hive traps. Maybe our researchers will work out a way to use Coumaphous with pollen in a trap with the existing registration. Maybe I found a good use for the pollen comming out of China! I will continue to work on the problem but the above is all I have come up with so far. From the start I thought even with Coumaphous, bait should be added but wasn't sure what the bait should be. Hope the information helps! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:05:39 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Beekeeping Topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Scott and All, I don't usually respond to these kinds of posts but your questions are to important to go unanswered. Scott Moser wrote: > > Greetings all, > Recently, I was elected to serve as the President of our local > association. I want to call upon the list to help me out a bit. I was > wondering what kinds of topics other clubs/associations cover at their > monthly meetings. Most of our members are beyond the beginner stage. Beginner stage or not our group allways does a spring program on disease. Allways a fall program on getting bees ready for winter. Those two can be done by your most knowledgeable club beekeepers. We do a spring beekeepers workshop (I started when I was president for three years) We do a spring bee equipment auction to benifit the club. Clean out the old equipment you no longer use and donate to the club auction (I also started the auction) We do a Christmas diner which is only for fun. Play Christmas music and visit. The club supplies the turkey(I am cooking & bringing the turkey this year)and the drinks. The members bring a covered dish and the ladies all call each other and bring different dishes. We do a picnic in August. we invited the Kansas beekeepers to join our picnic this year. We do games. You can see a post in the archives about games for such events. The above six meeting hardly ever vary. The others include speakers and other subjects pertaining to beekeeping. Sounds like you have got members which you can get to to a program. Tell the members(if they are shy) you will stand up with them and help make candles or talk about a aspect of beekeeping. There are many ways to reach the same result in beekeeping. Its allways fun to hear how the other beekeeper keeps his bees. Hope I have helped and hope others on Bee-l will give their ideas. Come on Bee-L help Scott out! Also our Christmas diner is this Sunday December 17th. If you live in the Kansas City area and want to meet other beekeepers email me for time and directions. The Midwestern Beekeepers have been running since 1946 without ever stopping. We have been going longer than all the 19 beekeeping assn. in Missouri and even the state assn. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 08:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: EPA Proposes new draft Pesticide Registration Comments: To: "NYS-BEES@listserv.albany.edu" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The following is reposted (with permission). This is an important issue. Spread the news, far and wide, and write your representatives in DC! This article has been supplied by Tom Theobold, a commercial beekeeper from Colorado. It is intended as a call to action by beekeepers for a problem with pesticides, the EPA and what has been labeled as blatent pesticide abuse and violation of the law. Bee Culture urges you to visit the EPA site and comment on the proposed rules. But more importantly, by contacting your congressperson, you will call more pressure on EPA to change what is perceived as a serious and inflexible attitude toward pesticides and honey bees. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The EPA, Pesticides and Beekeepers. An Editorial and call to Arms. By Tom Theobold In an apparently inadvertent irony of timing, the Environmental Protection Agency announced in the Federal Register its intention to seek public comment on a draft Pesticide Registration (PR) notice entitled "Guidance for Pesticide Registrants on Bee Precautionary Labeling". This announcement came on November 22, the day before Thanksgiving. In the war movies, this moment is typically accompanied by the panic cry "INCOMING"! Pesticides hazardous to honey bees have carried a label restriction since the early 1980s. It reads: "[This product] is HAZARDOUS TO BEES exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops an/or blooming weeds. Do not apply [this product] or allow it to drift to blooming crops and/or blooming weeds if bees are foraging the areas to be treated." The label restriction came about as a consequence of massive bee kills from pesticides in the 1970s. Unfortunately the chemical industry and State Regulators (the agencies typically delegated the authority by EPA for pesticide regulation) found the restriction cumbersome, problematical and inconvenient. While the label restriction was frequently ignored or skirted, it nevertheless gave beekeepers standing before the law when their bees were killed by illegal pesticide use. Even under these conditions of unenthusiastic and even hostile enforcement, commercial beekeepers in many parts of the country had over 30% of their colonies killed or damaged by pesticides. The current PR Notice would propose sweeping changes to not only the wording but the intent of bee protection language. New pesticides presented for registration which fail to provide residual bee toxicity data automatically will be assumed to have a toxic period of 24 hours. This will encourage applicants to neglect this detail, and beekeepers will spend years enduring bee kills and uncompensated damages as they attempt to establish their case against new pesticides which may have residual toxicity's of 1 to 2 weeks. In other words the toxicity data will be generated at the expense of the beekeeping industry. It dismisses the issue of drift, which is often the major culprit in bee kills, by simply omitting any reference to it. By this logic, polluters in other arenas would be free to release toxic substances into a waterway and be held harmless for any damage done downstream. The only difference between the two cases is that with agricultural pesticides it isn't a waterway but an airstream which is polluted. Perhaps the worst part of this proposal is its caveat to the chemical industry, which says that an applicator is not responsible for following even the feeble language proposed if they participate in a "formal, state-approved bee protection program". The EPA plans to take no role in the formation, approval or monitoring of the state approved program, despite the clear evidence that it has often been State Departments of Agriculture which are the problem in protecting pollinators. In 1997 AAPCO )the American Association of Pesticide Control Officers), a professional organization to which many state regulatory people belong, formally requested that the EPA make bee protection language ADVISORY. This gives you an idea of the philosophy of many of these states and what protections they might provide given a free hand. The EPA proposed to not only put the foxes back in charge of the chicken coop despite the loss of all these chickens, it proposed to let the foxes make the rules a! nd doesn't even intend to ask what the rules are. Beyond the specific labeling language, the EPA is failing to carry out its basic responsibilities under the law (FIFRA). Ultimately Congress is responsible for the implementation of FIFRA. It assigns this responsibility to EPA, which in turn delegates the authority to another agency, typically a State Department Of Agriculture. It is apparent that the EPA is not only prepared to cave in to the convenience of the chemical industry, but they are willing to sacrifice American beekeeping and violate the law in the bargain. They are either incapable or unwilling to hold their delegees (the states) accountable for administering the law properly, nor are they willing to do so themselves. Beekeepers are urged to familiarize themselves with this issue and contact their Congresspeople immediately. This matter will effect all beekeepers, large or small. The indiscriminate and uncontrolled use of pesticides around bees, which is likely to result from the current posture of the EPA, will result in enormous and costly losses for almost all beekeepers. The EPA must be called to account by Congress and required to follow the law. The current proposal provides little or no protection to honey bees or any other pollinators, after years of input from the beekeeping industry. More detailed information on the PR can be obtained at http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/ The comment period ends Jan 22, 2001. In addition to anything you may have to say to the EPA, you should inform your Congressperson or nothing will change. Tom Theobold is a commercial beekeeper, freelance writer and has been a beekeeper's advocate in the pesticide arena for over 25 years. If you have further questions please email Bee Culture Magazine at kim@airoot.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm For an archive Catch the Buzz postings, visit: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html To unsubscribe to this emailing, simply goto: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/unsubscribe.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:09:05 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eddy Lear Subject: Re: Queens and swarms In-Reply-To: <200012131840.NAA01149@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 13 Dec 2000, Eddy Lear wrote: On inspection I visited my > hives again in February and was astounded not to find Varroa. On closer > examination of the brood area I found an abnormal number of Bee scorpions > (Ellingsenuis fulleri). Donald Aitken queries: The bee scorpions have been mentioned before in messages about Varroa. Do they prey on Varroa or do they just live with them? Could they be a possible biological control? I cannot conclusively say they do as I have not seen the ones in my observation hive eat anything yet. I presume they do it while I'm asleep. But, "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" ed by Roger Morse & Kim Flottum on pg 236 says "..(Ellingsenius indicus)...this pseudo-scorpion can be used as a bio indicator as to whether swarms of the Indian honeybee (Apis cerana) have settled into a new homesite. This pseudo-scorpion moves by attaching to the legs of bees. It does not feed on the bees themselves but eats other arthropods such as mites and moths (Murthy and Venkataraman 1985)... What I am certain about is that at present the hives I have thoroughly inspected have no Varroa at all, just plenty bee scorpions. Eddy Lear ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:51:47 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Beekeeping topics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Scott Moser asks about the above. If you visit the website of the Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations at www.irishbeekeeping.ie you will be able to download the latest newsletter of the County Dublin Association which gives the subject matter of all of the lectures held and to be held this winter. Hope this helps Sincerely Tom Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:48:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: EPA Proposes new draft Pesticide Registration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, Since joining this group several years ago it has been one of my intentions to highlight the potential and real problems relating to pesticide applications. We, here in France are most probably at a crucial phase in the "Imidaclopride" story, if one can bring it down to that level. It has become very apparent that (pushing our immediate problem to one side for the moment) the basic cause of our problem was and still is the somewhat lax attitude of the Public Authorities when dealing with pesticide authorisation testing and final use. Materials that should not have been allowed on to the market have been so - partially due to intense lobbying from the Agro-chemical companies. They obviously know the law inside out and manipulate any weakness in it. If it is not stated black on white the do's and don'ts - the adverts, labeling, application, testing of etc. are all fair game in the world of mis-use, mis-interpretation and legal protestation of big business. I am not against farmers etc. protecting their produce as much as beekeepers have to protect their interests - but the initial rules must be fair, correct and followed in the way that they were "intended". This is so often not the case. When either mistakes are revealed or new science sheds unwelcome facts onto a product - watch the weasel words and actions come forth from the protectors of the countryside - the agro-chemical firms. Business often wonder with mouths agape when the public get into a frantic state - often media led. Critics say that the real facts and science should be obtained and used: so that the aforementioned public become well informed - who would then be in a position to formulate their own opinions. Excellent idea, totally agree, except where is the science, reports that count, information that allows the public to get informed? It is held back under commercial secrecy, buried in departmental files in Universities which have signed deals with companies to ensure that either the results are unpublished (unless it is good news), or statistically castrated when viewed from a scientifically relevant stance. The growing lack of truly independent scientific work is lamentable. Governments are "short of cash" - not so!!, they just do not wish to direct it into certain areas. As this is so often the case they should at least insist that those who do the work "for the public good" do so honestly - and the rules should make sure that this is so. The Scientific community that work in tied contracts should also speak out and tell the truth when there is the need - and not hid behind legalised non responsibility. The proposed lack in protection of bees and therefore "hand in hand" the environment in general is another sign of short sighted political aptitude when facing industrial greed for turnover. I think I shall go and bury my head in a dead hive - and I have so many to choose from! Peter From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 14 07:55:39 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05192 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00275 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101141258.HAA00275@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 07:58:30 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0011D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 173735 Lines: 3773 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 12:03:47 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: crpost Subject: INDUSTRY CODE OF CONDUCT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit During 2000 our industry identified the need to improve and expand our Code of Conduct. Would anyone be prepared to provide input into the exercise? Existing Codes and or proposals would be appreciated - privately or on the list (should you feel it of value to the entire community). Many thanks. Sincerely Robert Post ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:14:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: young people and comb honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain As a high school teacher, I have a captive audience for my sundry hobbies, including beekeeping. At least once a year I bring in comb honey and plastic spoons for the students to dig in and enjoy. None has ever refused. Bill Mares Champlain Valley Union H.S. Hinesburg, VT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:58:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: INDUSTRY CODE OF CONDUCT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find the industry in much new of the code of conduct when you go into the food stores to purchase honey and two containers are made in the United States, 12 other containers are China, Argentina, and Canada. Most are marked U. S. Grade A. Honey Sauce from our largest food chain has ingredients reading; honey, highfuctose, corn syrup, sugar, corn syrup, natural flavoring, caramel color. It is counting chad, dimple, and preagnut honey labels. I vote for the 51% real honey before the name can read Honey. Honey substitute this should read just subititue. \)/) l)/) Michael Housel >8()))}> >8())))}> /)\) l)\) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:11:26 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: young people and comb honey In-Reply-To: <200011221433.JAA09133@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not only young people, I removed a colony from an old boat at our local yacht club, crushed the wild comb and strained the honey, placed a piece of comb honey into two jars and topped them up with the honey. The next weekend I returned to the club and raffled the two jars of honey and made R90.00 towards the junior sailing. This sparked off tremendous interest and all in the pub that evening wanted to hear all about beekeeping and the Honey bee. They listened intently and only expressed their disappointment on behalf of the drone only mating once in his lifetime if he is lucky and then being stung to death afterwards. Mel Kayton Cape Province South Africa -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Mares Sent: 22 November 2000 03:15 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: young people and comb honey As a high school teacher, I have a captive audience for my sundry hobbies, including beekeeping. At least once a year I bring in comb honey and plastic spoons for the students to dig in and enjoy. None has ever refused. Bill Mares Champlain Valley Union H.S. Hinesburg, VT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 10:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: young people and comb honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As someone with a lifetime passion for comb honey and, more recently, a vested interest, I have been very interested in this discussion. Many of the contributors have (more or less) said simply "get them (young people) to eat it, and you have a repeat customer"! I think this is true, and not all that difficult. As evidence: 1. When Richard Taylor started seriously producing comb honey, in the early 1960's, he also observed that the only buyers were "older" folks. Assuming these were over age 60 at the time, very few, if any, are alive today. Yet, we hear the same refrain. At one time or another, each of these old folks was younger and started eating comb honey! 2. Richard Taylor no longer keeps bees, but still operates his honey stand. I happen to know that he annually sells over 1,000 sections from this simple roadside stand. He has obviously developed a group of customers who return year after year. 3. I started seriously producing comb honey in the early 70's, and also observed that most buyers were older folks. Today that is no longer true in my operation. While I have very few retail customers (I mostly sell wholesale), I think all are in their 50's or younger. Don't know why...that is just the way things have worked out. 4. My few retail customers tend to be serious consumers of comb honey who have searched me out. This year I picked up just two. Each found me through a personal reference, and each reported that they got very frustrated from constantly having to search for comb honey. I don't think either is 40! 5. This past Saturday I spent at the Ohio State beekeeping meeting in Reynoldsburg. Two Ross Round(tm) customers approached me to tell me how their difficulties in selling sections disappeared when they made the simple step of offering samples with disposable plastic spoons. One said he easily sold over 300 sections in 2000, and the other sells well over 1,000 sections (some of which he buys from others). Selling extracted honey is relatively easy. By comparison, I think, selling comb honey initially requires more personal contact and ingenuity. However, it is far more fun and satisfying to produce comb honey...not to mention the enormous financial benefits. I hope this helps, Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:03:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick and Kathy Subject: Drones stung to death? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melville Kayton wrote: > They listened intently and only expressed their disappointment > on behalf of the drone only mating once in his lifetime if he is lucky and > then being stung to death afterwards. When is a drone stung to death? It is my understanding that if a drone is *lucky* enough to mate, he dies because his 'lil appendage is torn off his body in the process (much like the reason a worker that has left her sting in someone dies). It is also my understanding that when drones are no longer required by the colony (autumn around here), they are evicted, but not killed. They eventually die of starvation or exposure, but not from having been stung. Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:05:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Mating behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mel said "the drone only mating once in his lifetime if he is lucky and then being stung to death afterwards." Methinks...if only that was true! (Better than the truth!) Once while being interviewed live on a radio show I described what really happens. When I described how the drone's penis is captured and causes disembowlment upon separation I swear that the interviewer (who was male) actually broke out in a sweat! The interview lasted about 10 minutes. The show host talked about little else for the next 2 hours! Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 11:51:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are a producer of Ross Rounds(tm), and would like your email address and/or web site added to our web site, please send PRIVATELY: 1. The name you would like listed (apiary, your name, etc.) 2. Email address 3. Web address (if any) 4. If you produce in the US or Canada, your state or province. 5. If you produce outside the US, your country. We do not have a counter on our site, but based on inquiries I estimate our traffic is reasonably high. On any search engine I have tried we are listed at or near the top. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:45:50 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Mating behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I once in a radio interview described the queen mating "on the wing". As the interviewer looked puzzled, I had to explain that I meant "while flying", rather than describing a particular part of her body... > When I described how the drone's penis is captured and causes > disembowlment > upon separation I swear that the interviewer (who was male) > actually broke > out in a sweat! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:38:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Varroa board Hello All, in searching the archives i find no reference to the *varroa board* designed by Diana Sammataro & N. Ostiguy of the Pennsylvania State University Bee Lab. In searching the web site i still found no information. I emailed Diana through the site and the response was right away and she is sending a update on her *varroa board*. Diana did a day long workshop in Kansas and a *varroa board* was given away. After laying around all summer the *varroa board* was given to me at Sundays bee meeting. I am interested in talking with any beekeepers which have used the *varroa board* and what thoughts they might have. Please do not confuse the *varroa board* with the *varroa calculator* much discused on IBL and put out by the British Beekeepers Assn.. The instructions on the *varroa board* read: Count the mites in the white areas only. When you get a total mite number,divide that number by 90. Now multiply the answer by 270 and you have the total number of mites on the board. If you divide the total mites by number of days the board was installed,you get number of mite fall per day. I do quite a bit of testing and maybe this board will make my job easier. Look forward to any Bee-L comments. Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:43:24 -0000 Reply-To: Gavin Ramsay Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gavin Ramsay Subject: Re: Response To Gavin Ramsay from Joe Rowland Comments: cc: beek6@juno.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All I welcome Joe's enthusiasm for challenging industry or government over the regulation of GMs. It has to be healthy to question how a new and powerful technology is being implemented, and if Tier 1 tests apply in the way you describe to GMs that carry genes potentially toxic to insects then as a beekeeper I would share your concern. Joe - yes, I am sure that your erroneous statements were indeed unintentional. Mark Winston was good enough to email me the text of that article today, and I can see where you have been misled. I have some sympathy with you and others who try to find out some of the facts of the situation for themselves. There is so much mis-information around, it is hard to see the truth. This is why I publicised some sites where you can see at least some of the information. Joe is right: 'we should maintain a healthy skepticism regarding claims coming from all sides of this controversy'. Some specific points which Joe raised. We agree that the French research did not demonstrate that GM pollen has any deleterious effects on bees. In fact they never looked at GM pollen as it did not make detectable anti-insect protein. The New Zealand research you mention (thanks again to Mark Winston who sent me the details) is of the same type: anti-insect proteins added to artificial bee diets. No GM pollen was involved, the study was just a risk assessment of the proteins themselves. I will send the abstract to Joe, and to anyone else who requests it (not all 900 of you, please!). I would be very surprised if the EPA and the FDA operate some parallel approval system that allows GM crops to be released independently from APHIS - AFAIK they just provide an extra level of scrutiny above that in APHIS. As far as I can tell, according to the sources of information available, tetracycline resistance was not in crops for release. It is possible (I'm speculating, and I've just thought of this) that tetracycline resistance was used during the multiplication of the DNA in bacteria prior to its use to transform plants. Additional markers are used for this step and the extra sequences are (almost always!) lost during the transformation process. I still think that this issue is a red herring as far as Terramycin-resistant AFB is concerned; it 'just happens', like fluvalinate-resistant Varroa. So, I'll deny the 'apparent errors' in my previous post. And wiggle-words?! I chose all my words carefully, not attempting to deceive or mis-inform but just to be accurate. In case anyone is starting to wonder, I am certainly not infallible either. In my 17 Nov post on Varroa tolerance (see the archives!) I made an error of fact. Shame on me! It doesn't really affect the point of the post, but I'm embarassed about it anyway. A jar of Scottish Heather Honey awaits the first one who correctly points it out. One tip: you'll need access to the Journal of Economic Entomology. I know, its unfair, who has access to an entomology library? Maybe this is a chance to winkle out more lurking scientists on the list ..... cheers Gavin. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:48:30 -0700 Reply-To: darn@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Varroa board In-Reply-To: <200011222321.SAA26374@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 22 Nov 2000, Bob Harrison wrote: When you get a total mite number, divide that number by 90. Now multiply the answer by 270 and you have the total number of mites on the board. Would this be the same as multiplying by 3? Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:02:37 -0600 Reply-To: gmc@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beeman Subject: funny smell/taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all! and Happy Thanksgiving. I have a question, i have 3 quarts of = honey that i was going to sell the other day and i opened 1 of them and = it had a vinegar smell, also it had some pressure on the cap when i = opened it, any ideas on was this is happening???? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:00:39 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa board Comments: To: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Donald, I punched in several senarios with the calculator and i believe you are right. You don't get the exact figure but close enough. The board has random white areas with a random pattern. For the multiplying by 3 to be correct the white areas must be one third of the whole. The squares number 15 across and 18 down and are the same size as the sticky boards i get from the state. The Dewill Varroa mite detector insert i use at times has the same size square but is 13 squares down by 11 squares across (143 total). I suppose if you blacked out 2/3 of the squares(approx 95). Counted the mites on the unblacked squares and (as Donald said) multiplied by 3 you would get the same basic result with less trouble. Thanks Donald. I have allways been counting all the mites when i want to be exact. With the Penn State *varroa board* it would be hard to count the mites on the black squares. Next spring i will test the Penn State *varroa board* against the *dewill insert* and see how accurate averaging is. I must admit i have pulled inserts with more mites on it than i would care to count. The Penn State board has a reusable feature as it is laminated. The instructions say: Cover this board with a thin layer of petroleum jelly;scrape off and re-coat to reuse. Clever idea! Also if you wanted to count all the mites you could scrape onto a white piece of paper and then count. Mine was given to me by a fellow beekeeper but i imagine the *varroa board* is for sale through the Pennsylvania State Bee Lab although i didn't find info on the boards at their web site. I have been through many cases of the dewill inserts and cases of ones i have made with white paper. Maybe these laminated *varroa boards* would be a wise investment for the serious beekeeper. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Donald wrote; > When you get a total mite number, divide that number by 90. Now > multiply the answer by 270 and you have the total number of mites on > the board. > > Would this be the same as multiplying by 3? > > Best regards, > > Donald Aitken > Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:04:42 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Response To Joe Rowland from Gavin Ramsay In-Reply-To: <200011230001.TAA26878@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The exchange inserted onto this list, copied from somewhere else, is difficult to interpret fully. I make just a few brief comments. >Joe is right: 'we should maintain a >healthy skepticism regarding claims coming from all sides of this >controversy'. If this slogan is intended to imply that all commentators are of similar merit, that is rubbish. Enormous errors of fact, straw-man arguments, and moral smokescreens emanate daily from GM PR agents and their friends such as Gary Comstock whom I just had the pain of hearing. By contrast, quality science & interpretation is available from the websites I've mentioned. It is not true that all discussants should be treated with equal scepticism. Some have a record of cogent, reliable utterance e.g. Drs Mellon and Rissler at UCS. Come to think of it, nobody has suggested any objection to my article on www.psrast.org. Comstock today stated in my country's oldest tertiary institution that 'golden rice' had only one transgene and would certainly prevent blindness in poor Third World children. He mentioned no possible harm. Experts so deceitful as that deserve much more scepticism than scientific critics who have published detailed referenced discussion of the general issue. >The New Zealand research you mention (thanks again to >Mark Winston who sent me the details) is of the same type: anti-insect >proteins added to artificial bee diets. No GM pollen was involved, the >study was just a risk assessment of the proteins themselves. As Gavin could hardly know, proper realistic expts were planned but were quashed by the boss of the commercial (but govt-owned) research corporation within which such tests were being done. Lack of knowledge, especially in such a commercially distorted context, does NOT equal proof of safety. I will send >the abstract to Joe, and to anyone else who requests it (not all 900 of you, >please!). I would be grateful, as this list's GMiah and hevi-doodi Kiwi patriot. > It is >possible (I'm speculating, and I've just thought of this) that tetracycline >resistance was used during the multiplication of the DNA in bacteria prior >to its use to transform plants. Additional markers are used for this step >and the extra sequences are (almost always!) lost during the transformation >process. On the contrary, most current GM crops retain the antibiotic-resistance genes which were inserted with the modified Bt toxin gene etc. etc. The 'almost always' is, like most promises of GM, hope disguised as fact. For the opinions of an actual gene-jockey who is very worried about the cowboys surrounding him, see http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/6783/GMO-release_Premature.html R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: jjhoney@gate.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Juan Garcia, Jr." Organization: J&J Honey Farms Subject: Re: funny smell/taste Comments: To: gmc@HCIS.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beeman wrote: > Hello all! and Happy Thanksgiving. I have a question, i have 3 quarts of = > honey that i was going to sell the other day and i opened 1 of them and = > it had a vinegar smell, also it had some pressure on the cap when i = > opened it, any ideas on was this is happening???? Beeman, I would venture a guess that the honey was not completely ripe (moisture <18%) when it was harvested or if it was marginally ripe, granulation would increase the moisture in the liquid portion of the stored honey to the point that it started to ferment. Juan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:19:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa board Comments: To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM In-Reply-To: <200011230309.WAA29328@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I punched in several senarios with the calculator and i believe you are > right. You don't get the exact figure but close enough. The board has > random white areas with a random pattern. For the multiplying by 3 to > be correct the white areas must be one third of the whole. FWIW, IMO this is not rocket science. The reaction after a quick glance (with specs for us over 50) should be, good, not bad, bad, awful, or Oh-OH! Excessive accuracy is a time-waster after the novelty wears off. Only when you have no varroa, or very little, is counting at all tricky. After that, a glance and occasional count for calibration purposes will suffice for most practical purposes. The fancy boards with careful counting capabilities are for those who only have a few hives or are just learning to recognise the beasts -- or scientists. After the initial training period, anything white will do for most of us. > ... The Penn State board has a reusable feature as it is laminated. > The instructions say: > Cover this board with a thin layer of petroleum jelly;scrape off and > re-coat to reuse. We use coroplast cut into pieces about the size of a sheet of foundation and spray them with Pam. There is no need to sample the whole hive floor. Just the area under the main cluster and brood is of interest, and if you miss some area, you can guess how much by the drop pattern. It is pretty obvious how much of the circle is missing and the drop is usually fairly uniform over the are (or the board you mention would not work). A window squeegee will clean off the Pam -- or a quick rinse in the sink with some detergent and a brush will do the trick. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:31:34 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Varroa board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all A recent post From: Allen Dick Reflects the opinion that I was about to express... Too much emphasis is placed on numbers and timing. Yes we do need the scientists to do this work but for beekeepers in the field the simple, Good, Not bad, Bad, Awful, or Oh-Oh! That Allen mentions is IDEAL. > FWIW, IMO this is not rocket science. The reaction after a quick glance (with > specs for us over 50) should be, good, not bad, bad, awful, or Oh-OH! Excessive > accuracy is a time-waster after the novelty wears off. > > Only when you have no varroa, or very little, is counting at all tricky. After > that, a glance and occasional count for calibration purposes will suffice for > most practical purposes. The fancy boards with careful counting capabilities > are for those who only have a few hives or are just learning to recognise the > beasts -- or scientists. After the initial training period, anything white will > do for most of us. I use floors with a mesh panel that covers 50% of the area...I use plywood trays painted with white houshold enamel that slide under from the back without the need to disturb the hive. I only get 50% of the drop but I no longer bother to count. It is easy to assess when you have reached the Oh-Oh! stage. Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:24:19 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Madeleine Pym Subject: need lots of 'cheap' honey and bee sounds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi one and all, This may amuse all but is a request to any beekeepers close to London. I have just had a request for 'about two bathfuls' of honey (yes it is serious) by a couple of young British artists who are planning some sort of installation which will use honey as a screen to project images through. Apparently honey does all sorts of holographic type strange things to images! (Would I be right in assuming this is to do with the way it refracts light?) Anyway, I don't have 2 bathfuls but said I would ask around. I suggested it may be a way of disposing of honey that wasn't quite up to grade - so to speak - perhaps some old honey kicking around that had begun to ferment slightly, for example. This could be heated to a point that would reclarify it and stop further fermentation. And perhaps would give the beekeeper a bit of cash for an unsaleable product and mean that they could afford the stuff. What do you think gang does that sound like it might work? And are there any beekeepers willing to admit to having some sub-standard honey available? I must say I thought I had heard it all until today. London is a strange and surprising place to live. My young artists also want to record bee sounds and I have said they can have a go - another good reason for having open mesh floors - if they can hear anything at this time of year. But suggested they search the web for recordings. Can anyone recommend some sites? I think I had better give them a bit of warning about the weight of a couple of bathfuls - can't imagine what sort of structure they will need to make. Also make some sort of arrangements for its use/disposal afterwards as we don't need an outbreak of foulbrood, etc. should the honey contain bacteria or spores. Madeleine Pym mpym@hive.netkonect.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 05:19:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Rod Angell MO." Subject: how much to bid on hives In-Reply-To: Automatic digest processor 's message of Tue, 21 Nov 2000 00:00:06 -0500 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I read About a farm sell and they had some beehives for sale but I was wondering how to determan the value of the hive by looking at them at the sale I have keep bees for about 4 years But allways reaised them from splits from my hives Any adivece on what what to look for this tme of year I live in Mo. and it is November Thanks Rodney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 02:40:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, George Imirie. I'm still struggling to understand your position. You regard the current use of TM to result in more AFB in the Country than would exist if it was not used. So why didn't the period between 1922 and WW II when no TM or sulfa were availalbe result in AFB prevelance as low as now or even lower? Why were bseekeepers (including yourself?) inclined to use sulfa when it became available and, later, TM? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 08:24:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: funny smell/taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/00 1:16:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jjhoney@GATE.NET writes: > I would venture a guess that the honey was not completely ripe (moisture <18%) > > when it was harvested or if it was marginally ripe, granulation would > increase the moisture in the liquid portion of the stored honey to the point > that it started to ferment. Generally this fermentation on crystallized honey only affects a small amount at the surface of the container, where a film of water forms. You can carefully skim a quarter inch or so at the surface, then warm the honey to reliquify, and it should be OK. If the honey was not properly cured at the beginning, it may involve more of the honey than the surface. But you may find it salvageable with rewarming. I wouldn't throw it out without trying. In this case I would warm it briefly to around 150 to kill the yeasties and vinegar bacteria. Many beekeepers have made warm boxes of old refrigerators, where you can hold honey at 100 degrees or a little more, for a day or two This does not degrade the honey as much as higher temps. Check the archives for discussion of this. It's a good idea not to let crystallized honey sit too long, especially thru warm, humid weather. It's better reliquify again for long term storage, or else to freeze it to stop any fermentation. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 09:46:24 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Varroa board Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: For the multiplying by 3 to be correct the white areas must be one third of the whole. FWIW, IMO this is not rocket science. Of couse i agree with you completely. I hadn't looked at the math formula closely and have to admit I hadn't noticed the same result could be had by multiplying by 3( as Donald did). I am sure the other formula was intended to make to board seem complicated instead of just saying only count i/3 of the squares and multiply by 3 for the mite total. Also the way the 2/3 are blacked gives the appearance of a system carefully designed when in truth any 2/3 could have been used because a guess (or average) is what we are talking about. I was given the board to evaluate and report to the beekeepers club. So far i guess very few beekeepers have even seen the Penn state board. One improvement i can see right away is to use a light color for the darkened squares so all mites could be counted on the board if needed. Being a admirer of Diana Sammataro and believe her book *The Beekeepers Handbook* a excellent book for beginning beekeepers I believe the *varroa board* to be a useful tool for beekeepers wanting a top of the line detector insert for those wanting the most accurate mite information. I also agree with Allen a simple white board and counting all the mites will produce the same result. Having 2/3 of the squares not to count surely would speed up the process for bee researchers wanting mite counts but shouldn't researchers doing research be COUNTING all the mites? I might add that its possible down the road we WILL need accurate counts. One never knows. If you were wanting a accurate count on say a hundred hives and were counting the mites then being able to have to count only i/3 of the mites pin head size might be a big time saver. In the spring i will test the accuracy of counting only 1/3 and multipling by 3. They check method is not rocket science but will include for archives. Count the 1/3 and multiply by 3 for total. Count all the mites and compare to check accuracy. I will bet result is very close or Diana Summataro & N. Ostiguy wouldn't have designed and recommend the board. I *mite* add i do up to( not allways and maybe only one hive in a yard) five sticky board tests a year. I would recommend for a hobby beekeeper with only a couple hives to do all five if in known varroa area. 1. comming out of winter(make sure last winter treatments worked) 2. At end of spring treatment(if you did spring treatments) 3. late summer(this may or may not be neccessary depending on your varroa control but i would recommend if using IPM controls) 3A. If natural fall of mites is heavy pull supers and treat or lose hives. In cases of reinfestation may allready be to late as mites are difficult to count at this time as most are in sealed cells. 4.early fall(check to see mite loads before treating to decide on method of treatment) 5. end or two weeks into fall treatments(to make sure treatment is working) Sounds like quite a bit of work? So is cleaning out deadouts and replacing hives. 6. Another option. Dee Lusby method. Let hives not able to survive varroa die and breed from survivors. Use 4.9mm foundation. I have not used her method(yet)but feel it wouldn't be fair in putting forth ways to check chemical controls without giving those advocating the stopping the use of ALL chemicals and drugs in our hives. Information can be found on these methods in the archives and at Barry Birkeys web site. http://www.beesource.com Happy Thanksgiving! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <200011231447.JAA10134@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hi, George Imirie. I'm still struggling to understand > your position. You regard the current use of TM to > result in more AFB in the Country than would exist if > it was not used. I cannot speak for George but the subject is pretty well understood. There are two major brood diseases that we need to deal with: EFB and AFB. EFB is a pretty straight forward problem. The bacteria reproduce in a simple manner and a good dose of antibiotic will kill it off. When the bees clean out the cells the problem is gone. AFB is more difficult to take out. It reproduces by forming spores, millions of them. Another well known spore forming bacteria would be Anthrax. The "parent" bacteria are killed by antibiotic but the spores are not touched. These spores are picked up by bees cleaning up the brood cells and get into everything. They get into the honey, wax and propolis and onto the wooden ware. As soon as you stop the antibiotic treatement the spores that are picked up will start to survive and reproduce again. Now you have a hive that is a infection source for every hive in a two to three mile radius, or more! Move a frame from this hive to a clean hive and you have sealed its fate. Let it get weak and robbed out and a dozen others are gone. The spores get into the guts of field bees and if they drift to another hive empty their nectar, along with spores into the new hive. Each of these hives now requires you to start antibiotic treatment. These treatments will never end. The spores will outlive the beekeeper. Simple solution: burn everything. Spores will not survive the heat. Also the genetics that might tend to promote vunerability go as well. Complex solution: Start antibiotic treatments and practice strict control procedures. There are some professional beekeepers who can keep things going but most people do not work at that level. - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 12:20:14 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, Having done quite a bit of research on early beekeeping i will add a few facts i found. I don't want to get between Dan & George only add a few facts. Bob dan hendricks wrote: So why didn't the period between 1922 and WW II when no TM or sulfa were availalbe result in AFB prevelance as low as now or even lower? quote: from talk by the late George Vanarsdale (Osage Honey Farm Sibley, Missouri)on early 1922-1944 AFB (wording from memory & notes): Burning was not solving the problem. Kind of like a wildfire out of control. The problem seemed unstopable until sulfa (by accident) was discovered at the University of Missouri in around 1944 to control the active disease(but as Al said not kill the spores). Why were bseekeepers (including yourself?) inclined to use sulfa when it became available and, later, TM? I might be going out on a limb here but i don't believe sulfa was ever approved for use in beehives but was sold by many bee supply houses. Trace amounts of sulfa were found in honey i believe and its use banned. Please correct me if i am wrong as old records about this subject are a gray area but i believe the above to be correct for the U.S.. Tm was approved and found to control the active stage. Most beekeepers according to Mr. Vanarsdale wanted to get back to the business of beekeeping and contaminated equipment was in every operation so use of drugs was taken up with the intention of gradually quiting its use and going back to the original burning of equipment. Sadly bee supply houses(why not blame those people) tell new beekeepers to treat with TM spring and fall and so the story is as it is today. Resistant to TM AFB. Best wishes, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: jjhoney@gate.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Juan Garcia, Jr." Organization: J&J Honey Farms Subject: Re: TM in Crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bee Culture had an excellent article by Dr. Bill Wilson in the Oct. 2000 issue. this is available online at: [url]http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/00oct/00oct3.html[/url] "Although sodium sulfathiazole worked well against AFB, the medication did not control European foulbrood, and beekeepers reported heavy outbreaks of EFB in several parts of the U.S. in the 1950's." "In the 1950's, bee researchers in Canada (Jamieson 1953) and in the U.S. (Gochnauer 1951, 1953; Moffett 1954) reported effective control of foulbrood (both AFB and EFB) using oxytetracycline HCL (Terramycin or Tm) and other antibiotics." "The use of sodium sulfathiazole was eventually discontinued because it didn't work against EFB and when used for AFB, it left persistent residues in extracted honey" Dr. Wilson goes on to recount the treatment strategies that were developed, including the Terramycin extender patties (Wilson et al. 1970). AFB resistance to TM is discussed as are long-term strategies for the future control of AFB. I would be very thankful to anyone that could tell me how one would get a lists of studies done by ARS personnel from Weslaco and Beltsville that have not been published in trade journals. I would also like to know if there are public databases that list studies/field studies done by University personnel on bees. Juan Garcia, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:23:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, You have MISINTERPRETED what I wrote, so I will attempt to explain. Of vital importance is the FACT that their is NO known cure for AFB! Because most Americans DON'T READ DIRECTIONS or smallprint, but pay great attention to homeo- pathic use of "medicines", year after year, both in 1946 or 1999, multitudes of beginning beekeepers BELIEVED that TM cured AFB, used it time and time again and hence prolonged the existence of AFB in their apiary as well as spreading the disease to neighboring clean apiaries when the clean bees tried to rob out a dying or dead diseased colony. TM only keeps the diseased bees alive as long as they are treated year after year, but it does not eradicate the disease, but rather just "HIDES" it. It should be OBVIOUS to most people that there was great beekeeper resistance to hive burning when inspection laws came about in 1922. Many beekeepers hid their hives from inspectors and THAT was the very reason that the inspectors had the legal authority to get the local county sheriff to arrest a beekeeper who tried to prevent an inspector from inspecting hives and burning if necessary. The lowering of the percentage of diseased colonies from 1922 to 1946 was primarily due to the burning of diseased colonies removed sources of infection from clean apiaries and removal of unskilled beekeepers who no longer "taught" newbies how to keep bees. The use of TM or sulfa (I have NEVER USED EITHER OF THEM) did absolutely NOTHING to lower the percentage of diseased colonies in the U.S., because these drugs do NOT KILL the spores of AFB. It was the inspection laws and the removal of diseased woodenware (and bees and honey) by burning that lowered the infection rate of AFB. At meetings of state and government officials that I have attended during reason years indicate that the % of colonies infected with AFB is INCREASING in every state where infection has been discontinued or minimized. I am reminded of having pimples and/or sores on my face. I was not interested in hiding them with cosmetics, but rather removing them. The use of TM falls in the same category, it just "masks" or hides the presence of a fatal infectious disease of bees; and bees and beekeepers would be far better off if the use was banned by law. This is my position, and I don't care to discuss it further. Nothing is accomplished in arguing religion or politics, and now the use of TM. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:25:49 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: how much to bid on hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rod Angell MO. wrote: I read About a farm sell and they had some beehives for sale but I was wondering how to determan the value of the hive by looking at them at the sale I have keep bees for about 4 years But allways reaised them from splits from my hives Any adivece on what what to look for this me of year I live in Mo. and it is November Hello Rod, This time of year and with the likelyhood they have not been properly treated i would buy as if i was only buying the equipment. If the equipment is old i would consider the possibility of foulbrood spores. If the owner/beekeeper is at the sale and you can talk then and only then would i consider a higher price. Allways good at sales to figure what you are going to bid before the biding starts and then stop at your preset figure or else you might end up paying to much. Good luck at the sale. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 00:25:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM in crisco Comments: To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM In-Reply-To: <200011231830.NAA14289@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Having done quite a bit of research on early beekeeping i will add a few > facts i found. > > So why didn't the period between > > 1922 and WW II when no TM or sulfa were available > > result in AFB prevalence as low as now or even lower? Thanks guys, I think it is time for those who claim that drugs can't cure AFB to prove their position, and not just keep repeating opinions as if they were fact. I'm not talking theory or semantics, I'm talking practical. When I say 'cure' I mean 'Well enough for all intents and purposes'. In challenging what seem to me to be idealistic statements about OTC and other drugs, I must state that I have the advantage of first-hand practical experience with this problem both in hives I have purchased and those of others over a quarter century and more as a beekeeper. I began with an idealistic anti-drug point of view, but rapidly learned about the real world when I set out to become a commercial beekeeper. Over the years, as a beekeeper or long ago as an inspector, I've often personally observed the drastic reduction and elimination of infection in properly treated hives. I can assert that medication works marvellously in practice, even if it may not hold up as well in theory for some people. When I defend OTC, and claim a cure, I should explain that we run up to 4,500 hives and could not find *any* AFB this fall. We offered a generous cash reward to our staff for any AFB and no one claimed it, although they did find some interesting combs. I know for a fact that some of the hives we run had a serious history of AFB a decade or more ago. We medicate once a year in the spring using OTC extender patties made according to the Wilson formula. We melt any AFB or scale we find and re-use the boxes and other combs in the hive without any special measures. We operate in areas where other beekeepers are nearby. Just for illustration of how amazingly good this is, the above could be taken to mean that if a hobbyist had 10 used hives with a history of AFB and operated using the techniques we do, he/she might expect to be free of AFB symptoms for 225 years, even in an AFB area. Is that 'cured' enough? It is for me. Think about the inevitable alternative. But YMMV. I don't think it is too much to ask those who maintain that drugs do not prevent AFB to explain: 1.) The exact mechanism by which drugs purportedly mask an INCREASE (or even steady state) of AFB spore levels in a hive, since that is what they seem to insist. It seems obvious to me that if the disease is prevented from expressing itself, then the levels of viable spores in a hive must decrease over time. In the fullness of time, they must reach a point where the chance of outbreak is close to zero -- even if the drugs were not provided regularly. I've seen this transformation of hives that were riddled with scale to hives that could be left untreated for long periods. In my experience, every failure of the drugs to work has been due to operator error or incorrect dose. (Excepting cases of the resistant AFB strain(s) that have recent arisen). 2.) What happens if a non-treated hive is exposed to AFB from nearby operations or discarded honey? This is a fact of life in many areas. Most of us are in a world where all our efforts to maintain total freedom from AFB can come to naught by someone bringing a few hives into our district or even discarding unwanted honey into the trash. If we see AFB in our hives, we may not even know what has happened and assume that it came from our own equipment when it did not. How can we ever know if old disease was cured or not if new equipment beside the old hives is breaking down? What does it matter? In such a case, burning is a continuous and pointless task, but a little medication can eliminate the problem -- and its spread -- for as long as the drug is properly applied. I realise that some think in terms of absolutes and do not depend on bees for a livelihood and will pay any price for a theoretical -- even an illusory and temporary -- purity. However, commercial beekeepers live in the real world; we can no mare avoid occasional exposure to AFB in practice than avoid regular exposure to the common cold in everyday life. We must accept that fact and plan accordingly. Good drugs, used properly, can reduce AFB levels to near zero. That is a good place to start on reducing dependence on them. I think reducing dependence is a laudable goal, and we have been conducting some research to that end. A friend sent me some copies of research a while back in response to a conversation we had on the way to the airport one day; I think the study is illuminating and holds some interesting answers. I'll write more about that soon, but first, I'm waiting to see if anyone can make a case that addresses my points and has any respect for the economic reality commercial beekeepers face. > I might be going out on a limb here but i don't believe sulfa was ever > approved for use in beehives but was sold by many bee supply houses. > Trace amounts of sulfa were found in honey i believe and its use banned. You are right on here bob. Good post. allen My diary is working again. Visit me at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:58:07 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: TM in crisco Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & all, Allen Dick wrote: 1.) The exact mechanism by which drugs purportedly mask an INCREASE (or even steady state) of AFB spore levels in a hive, since that is what they seem to insist. It seems obvious to me that if the disease is prevented from expressing itself, then the levels of viable spores in a hive must decrease over time. In the fullness of time, they must reach a point where the chance of outbreak is close to zero -- even if the drugs were not provided regularly. I ran a test in 1985 and left 12 hives untreated for a year to see if AFB would raise its ugly head. These hives i bought from the wife of a beekeeper which had passed away (1979). She said he had fought quite a battle with AFB so she wanted to see the hives go to a beekeeper familiar with AFB. 2/3 of the boxes showed signs of scorching with fire and she claimed much of the comb to be 25-30 years old. I did a careful examination of the colonies before buying and found no active AFB but the hives had been treated with TM. The comb was indeed old but had very little drone comb. I did cull some but not a huge amount. I medicated the hives for 6 years with TM. In 1985 i decided to discontinue treatments for a year at a remote location to see if the time had come to stop treatments and only cull AFB. On careful examination the next spring(1986) I found no active AFB. I moved the hives into a area of other colonies(1986) so i resumed regular treatments with TM. I can't say why i started treating again. Maybe because the TM treatments are easy and fairly inexpensive. I would bet there were spores in those colonies so why did they not become active? Has any tests ever been run to see how long it takes for spores to become active? We have got a bee supply dealer in our area which maintains it takes 2,000 degree temp to kill AFB spores. The maker of the *Better Way Wax Melter* claims 350 degrees will do the job. Which is right? 2.) What happens if a non-treated hive is exposed to AFB from nearby operations or discarded honey? What does it matter? In such a case, burning is a continuous and pointless task, but a little medication can eliminate the problem -- and its spread -- for as long as the drug is properly applied. I always chuckle at the new beekeeper which comes home from the bee supply house with new equipment so he won't have to worry about AFB. Main reason he bought new in the first place (plenty of hives and used equipment for sale since there are half as many beekeepers now as a decade ago in the U.S.). The last item placed in his sack at the supply house is--yep! Terramycin! I have done many talks on bee disease over the years. The slides i use came from Dr. Larry Conner. My favorite is a slide of sealed brood. Excellent pattern with *one* cell of AFB. Researchers and longtime beekeepers are familiar with the slide(which is still available from Wicwas Press). When you see the slide you quickly realize how hard AFB is to detect in a commercial operation and why beekeepers choose to medicate instead of endless searching. I believe it would be easier to find the queen in a hive than one cell of AFB. Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Nov 0100 16:34:07 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: TM in Crisco When I started with bees in CA.over 25 years ago it was common knowledge that there were pockets of AFB everywhere and you must treat your bees for self protection.These pockets of AFB were assumed to be hobbiests who had not treated their bees and they had succumbed,and were now stacked in back yards waiting to infect YOUR bees.Over the years,having looked at lots of used equipment,I know this is true.So what happens if you dont treat your hives? About 15 years ago I talked with a man who had set down around 15 hives a mile from ours.This was in the fall and he was loading them up in his pick-up. When asked how they did,he told me they had all broken down with AFB.I asked what his treatment program was and was informed quite forcefully that he absolutely would not put anti-biotics in his hives .Our hives which had been treated never showed AFB and made a good crop.Theoretically,our hives had probably robbed his and at some point should have broken down.They never did. A good plan in CA. that works is treat before your honeyflow and after the supers are off in late summer.Then if you find AFB you should burn, on the assumption you may be dealing with TM resistant AFB.Resistant AFB is out there but dont assume you have it yet.At the same time we should be looking for hygienic bees(those that detect a problem with the brood and remove it) in our own bees,and supporting those breeders who are doing likewise.This may have some effect on varroa ,but is more likely to help us with brood diseases. Another point to keep in mind is that researchers have sometimes failed to get healthy hives to show AFB symptoms after deliberately feeding them AFB spores. --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 12:03:55 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <200011241349.IAA02266@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > When I defend OTC, and claim a cure, I should explain that we > run up to 4,500 > hives and could not find *any* AFB this fall. We offered a > generous cash reward > to our staff for any AFB and no one claimed it, although they > did find some > interesting combs. I know for a fact that some of the hives > we run had a > serious history of AFB a decade or more ago. We medicate once > a year in the > spring using OTC extender patties made according to the > Wilson formula. We > melt any AFB or scale we find and re-use the boxes and other > combs in the hive > without any special measures. We operate in areas where > other beekeepers are > nearby. > A couple of quick questions. What do you estimate your losses would be if OTC were no longer effective against AFB and there was no alternative treatment? We now have bacteria that are resistant to even the antibiotic of last resort (vancomycin) and scientists all over the world are warning about antibiotic use ( http://www.mayohealth.org/mayo/9812/htm/superbugs.htm ) how long do you estimate it will be before there are no antibiotics that will be effective against AFB? With growing concerns about antibiotics in animal feed do you think it is possible for beehives to become breeding grounds for resistant strains of bacteria that while harmless to the bees, but could be dangerous to humans? For example antibiotic resistant Staph germs that are transmitted to someone after a sting. Other information: http://detnews.com/1999/health/9909/23/09220161.htm http://www2.cdc.gov/ncidod/aip/Village_News/village_news.asp http://www.usatoday.com/life/health/general/lhgen013.htm http://www.uwsp.edu/geo/courses/geog100/WPFeedAntibiotics.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:27:45 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Varroa-free areas of the world In-Reply-To: <200011211209.HAA01137@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Are there any up-to-date publications providing information on worldwide distribution of Varroa jacobsoni? I am mainly interested in learning of those (undoubtedly few) areas, in which the parasite has not yet been detected. **************************************************************************** Tom Culliney Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814, U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 FAX: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) "Bugs are not going to inherit the earth. They own it now. So we might as well make peace with the landlord."--T. Eisner (1989) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM in crisco Comments: To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM In-Reply-To: <200011241641.LAA05826@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Has any tests ever been run to see how long it takes > for spores to become active? I think 'inactive' is what you meant to say. That has been researched and we know AFB spores last a long, long, time. Nonetheless, a lot of the research has been culturing or introducing AFB under artificial conditions and also we do know that seeds and spores do not improve in vigour with age. There is a decay curve for most things and I will assume that AFB spores are no different and have a finite useful half-life. I must emphasize most strongly that this may be distinct from the time during which they are able to be cultured in a lab. Moreover, there must be things that weaken them. If not they are unique among living things. Add to this the fact that we do know AFB spores have a *short time window for success* in a developing larva, and if they fail to kill the larva in that time window, then they fail. Period. Spores that seem viable in culture may not make the grade in a real life situation, or they may need a lot more help from their buddies. > We have got a bee supply dealer in our > area which maintains it takes 2,000 degree temp to kill AFB spores. The > maker of the *Better Way Wax Melter* claims 350 degrees will do the > job. Which is right? I think they are both right. It is a question of degree. To kill 100% would take the more drastic environment, while killing or weakening the spores enough to render them harmless would take the latter -- or even much less. Add to that the fact that no one has proven that spores cooked in wax can cause disease in a real-life situation, and once again we are confronting theory with practical, empirical evidence. I prefer to believe the latter -- and to hell with the theory. I researched pasteurization some time back and found -- interestingly enough -- that the process does not kill all the bacteria, but eliminates sufficient numbers and weakens the rest enough that the product is safe for consumption. Fascinating... * Most of us who are seriously in the bee business for a long time in North America believe that once the AFB spores are deep fried in wax for a while, they may still be able to be resuscitated in a lab somewhere (and thus considered viable), but they are no threat to us in real life. M* any of us have also observed that, although there are still (reportedly) measurable AFB spores in hives that have been properly treated with drugs, the disease does not express itself significantly more often in such hives than it does in supposedly clean hives. Why? I don't know. Personally, I don't care why. It works. I leave it to the theorists to try to reconcile their ideas with the reality that surrounds them. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 03:00:39 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <20001124215042.RAOA29032.fepE.post.tele.dk@SEGATE.SUNET.SE> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think 'inactive' is what you meant to say. That has been > researched and we > know AFB spores last a long, long, time. Bees feed with 70 years old honey got infected with AFB from the feeding. By the way it is possible to do beekeeping without use of ANY drugs. So we do in Denmark and we have around 4000 beekeepers in our little contry. AFB is present in Denmark, But we have a strict control, based on Beeinspectors and skilled beekepers. Wer are not burning hives unless the beepopulation at the beekeeper is very small. And when bees are killed by burning, a compensation are payed to the beekeeper. We are using the so known Mac Evoy way of handling the AFB. This year there have been reported 133 apiaries with AFB against 125 last year. You can visit www.sp.dk/planteinfo for more information. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software full revised and bug tested 20-09-2000 Now also individual solutions possible. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 00:24:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts What do you experienced beekeepers know about varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts to bees in the spring and fall? I linked to a site in the UK that sells a product containing it. The research paper emailed back looked promising. However, the study was done in 1993. I've never seen that particular treatment available in any bee supply catalog. Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:45:56 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: Dick Allen > I linked to a site in > the UK that sells a product containing it. The research paper emailed back > looked promising. However, the study was done in 1993. I've never seen that > particular treatment available in any bee supply catalog. > Dick Allen I have been conducting some testing of copper gluconate for several years...I was not aware anyone else was trying it. could you send me the contact details privately? The material is not approved or licenced for bee medication in the UK, which is why no products are available commercially. I am using it in a double barreled approach with the Czech material "Tactivar". but I am not in a position to publish any results yet. Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:36:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: "900 cell foundation" Hello all, In the spring of 1991 Dadant & Sons,inc., Hamilton.Il. offered small cell foundation. The foundation was in the 1991 Dadant catalog. The foundation was available in Crimp-wired or Duragilt. I would like to hear from beekeepers which bought the foundation and hear about the results they had. I would like to know the cells per inch measurement on both foundations. If you have got a large amount which you never used i might be interested. Thanks in advance. Please email me direct. Best regards, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Setting the record straight Hello all, After reading the article *Killer Bees live calmly in U.S.* by Thomas Ropp I feel i need to set the record straight. http://beesource.com Please realize i only want to set the record straight and have spent many hours finding the article which started the whole senario. To make a long story short around 1976 rumors were ciculating in bee circles Africanized bee semen was intering the country. Yes my friends the story the story was true BUT what was being imported was semen carring a new mutant gene(Ac). Because the semen was comming from the infamous (Dr. Kerr) wild stories run wild. The gene(Ac) was sent into the U.S. safely through a process called BACKCROSSING> Quote Steve Tabor & Dr. H.H. Laidlaw: repeated backcrossing of subsequent generations to a line will in 4 or 5 generations virtually eliminate the genes of the line that is being backcrossed to another. This is as true for backcrossing A. adansonii onto Italian as is the reverse. By selecting one gene for propagation,in this case (Ac),the gene might be said to be "genetically washed"by repeated backcrossing to the yellow line. The one gene and only very few associated genes would persist. Since Dr. Kerr had allready backcrossed the (Ac) gene onto Italian stock for several generations before i recieved it, IT IS INCORRECT TO SAY I IMPORTED A.adansonii, or even the "africanized bee'. To read for yourself and do away with the old myth. American Bee Journal March 1977 volume 117 no.3 Page 152 The African Bee in Louisiana by Stephen Tabor 111 page 153 The Importation of Semen from Brazil into California by H.H. Laidlaw U.of C., Davis Bob Harrison comments; African bees are painted with a broad brush when in fact according to Ruttner (1975) there are three major groups with 12 african races of bees. A.m scutellata stands above the rest in traits not aligned with normal beekeeping. All african bees were under the heading of "adansonii' when the release came in 1957. Even in 1977 when the above was written. I was allways under the impression A.m. scutellata was what was released in 1957 but many are not reporting the A.m.scutellata color pattern in Texas and Arizona. They talk in Texas of AHB being a dark color. In my opinion i am beginning to wonder if we are looking at decendents of the black races of African bees instead of the decendents of A.m.scutellata. Many of the dark races were even used in Brother Adam's breeding program. The name scutellata was given to bees of south africa by Lepeletier(1836) evedently refering to the conspicious YELLOW scutellum. A.m.scutellata is a small bee with scarce pilosity,variable pigmentation on the abdomen(one or more YELLOW bands) mostly a BRIGHT YELLOW SCUTELLUM on the thorax and a charactoristic wing variation. IT HAS COMMOM FEATURES WITH APIS MELLIFERA CAPENSIS BUT IS EASILY DISTINGUISHED FROM ALL OTHER RACES(DuPraw,1965) Hopefully there are not any A.m.capensis in the U.S. so ID of the AHB in Texas & Arizona if A.m.scutellata shouldn't be overly difficult i would think. OK Texas and Arizona beekeepers which have first hand experiance with AHB are the AHB bees you are working with black or as above? Researchers?. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:02:44 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Re: Varroa-free areas of the world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Fiji Islands (and many other South Pacific Islands) are still Varroa free. >Are there any up-to-date publications providing information on worldwide >distribution of Varroa jacobsoni? I am mainly interested in learning of >those (undoubtedly few) areas, in which the parasite has not yet been >detected. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:17:56 -0500 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Louisiana Beekeepers meeting In-Reply-To: <200011241349.IAA02266@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The annual meeting of the Louisiana Beekeepers Association will be held next weekend (Dec. 1 & 2) at the Marriott Hotel in Baton Rouge Louisiana. Registration starts at 8 AM Friday. This is the hotel that used to be the Hilton. (Located off I-10 at the College Dr exit. There will also be a meeting of the U.S. Beekeepers before the state meeting. It's going to be on Thursday, Nov. 30 at the same hotel. Please email me for further information. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper Carencro LA 1000+ Hives ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 06:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Varroa control by feeding organic cupric salts In-Reply-To: <200011251259.HAA00407@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Dick Allen (not Allen Dick) said: > > I linked to a site in > > the UK that sells a product containing it. The research > > paper emailed back looked promising. However, the study > > was done in 1993. I've never seen that particular > > treatment available in any bee supply catalog. > Dave Cushman wrote: > I have been conducting some testing of copper gluconate for several > years...I was not aware anyone else was trying it. could you send me the > contact details privately?... sci.agriculture.beekeeping covered this fairly well in a thread called 'Fwd: - Varroa Treatments' extending from Sept 29 to Oct 7, 2000. Try this link to the thread (the direct link is too long to post here). http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Formic/copper.htm or visit the sci.ag.bee archives at http://www.ibiblio.org/bees allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 16:30:27 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: New to bee keeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I have subscribed to this list for a while, I have never posted. Most of the discussions I have seen have been interesting, but as I was not a bee keeper, they didnt have the same impact so to speak. Friday afternoon, I became the proud owner of my first hive. A friend has decided to get out of bee keeping for a while and has given me a first hive with 2 more to come at a later date. This hive is weak as its a split from the other two. I would be appreciative for any advice on strengthening this hive as well as other practical tid bits for one new to bees. So far I can say I could pull up a lawn chair and sit and watch them all day long. My location is north western Ga, due west of Atlanta. I would also like for any others in the Douglasville area that may be on the list to contact me if possible. Thank You for your patience, and thanks for this list. Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:42:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Hive rentals In-Reply-To: <200011261855.NAA19947@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks, I was just wondering what a person should charge for hive rentals. I'm sure you have talked about it before, but I haven't seen it. thanks in advance preacher ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:07:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The Small Beekeeper’s Journal (300 Hickory St., Apple River, IL 61001, $12.95 per year) reprinted in their November, 2000 issue a reprint from the October, 1945 issue of Gleanings in Bee Culture. This was an article by E.R. Root entitled “Eighty Years Among the Bees” which covered a most extraordinary account of overwintering bees. I have extracted the following, editing for brevity. Dan Hendricks “I have been rereading Langstroth’s original book of 1853-57, and I must say that I am amazed how that genius who invented the moveable frame was in line with present day trends in the thinking and pratices on the subject of winterlng. . . . On the subject of dampness which we consider so harmful to good wintering, he says in the first edition of his book of 1853. ‘This dampness, which causes what may be called a rot among the bees, is one of the worst enemies with which the apiarian weakns or destroys many of his best colonies. . . . They will survive our coldest winters in thin (*he means single thickness of wood*) hives raised on blocks to give a fteer admission of air, or even in suspendced hives, without any bottom board at all. Indeed, in cold weather a very free admission of air is necessasry in such hives to prevent the otherwise ruinous effect of frozen moisture; and hence the common remark that bees require as much or more air in winter than in summer.’ . . . ‘Today (Jan. 14, 1857), I have opened three hives and carefully examinead the combs, and find their condition to be as follows: (No. l) a good stock of bees in a thin hive with abundant upward ventilation, the spare honey board (*I think he means what we would call an inner cover*) being entirely removed. In the main hive there was a very little frost (the thermometer this morning being 10 degrees below zero), and the bees were dry and lively. The central combs containing eggs and unsealead worms.” (*I’m not making this up*) . . . ‘Bees kept in large garret closets where their combs occupy but a small part of the enclosed space are exposed often to a very severe temperature. In such situations, however, they are able to breed in the depth of winter, and I believe that they would thrive, even if their combs were hung in an open shed and merely protected from the wind. I would sooner risk them in such a situation than in a damp hive however well protected. ‘January 20, 1857: This month, the coldest on record for more than 50 years, had furnished the most decisive proof of the correctness of the views advancsed in this Appendix on wintering bees in the open air. My colonies have been exposed to a temperature of 30 degrees below zero, the mercury for two days never having risen above 6 degrees below, and the wind blowing a strong gale the whole time! ‘I have today carefully examined the thin hive and found the bees to be very healthy. The central comb is almost entirely filled with sealed brood nearly mature; the combs are far from any appearance of mold, and the interior of the hive is very dry. The spare honey board was covered on its under sie4 with straw waapping papear, and elevated by tacks on its corners about half an inch. In all my hives where I have adopeted this arranglement not a particle of dampness is found to settle over the bees. The value of intercommunicating passages through the combs has this winter been most fully tested; and its importance can hardly be overestimated.’” __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:22:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Hive rentals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/00 10:30:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, preacherc@CVALLEY.NET writes: > I was just wondering what a person should charge for hive rentals. I'm sure > you have talked about it before, but I haven't seen it. > thanks in advance The price is locally determined, according to supply and demand. But be aware that a "hive" for pollination purposes has to be defined, and should at least have minimum standards. In some areas the real rental fee is not based on the hives but on the frames of bees and brood. You can find more about standards at the page in the sig file. A good resource for prices is Bee Culture magazine, which keeps tabs on honey, wax and pollination prices by region. You can subscribe via http://airoot.com In general, I can't see how one can pollinate and do a good job for less than $40 US. There are some cheaper in some areas, but often they are giving pretty poor quality of bees or service. Two poor hives may not be as useful as one good one. I think it is important for beekeepers who do pollination to remember that the grower must make a profit, if the business is to be sustained for the long term. Too many beekeepers operate on a short time frame, considering a pollination job as a way station between honey crops, and do not give the level of professionalism that is needed. Not only do your bees need to be of good quality, but you need to be highly knowledgeable, not only about bees, but about the crops and the pollination process, as well. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:30:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: DE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Diatomaceous earth, correctly described in the PR statement below, is - as has already been pointed out - certainly not the same thing as the mineral bentonite. Whether either will prove useful to beeks in one or another way is another question. R Natural Product Helps Insects "Bite the Dust" ----------- ARS News Service Agricultural Research Service, USDA Linda McGraw, (309) 681-6530, lmcgraw@asrr.arsusda.gov December 22, 1999 ----------- Remnants from one of the oldest things on earth--diatomaceous earth (DE)--can help solve one of today's most pressing problems: finding safe alternatives to insecticides to control insects in homes and food processing facilities, according to Agricultural Research Service scientists. DE is dust made from the fossilized skeletons of microscopic aquatic plants. ARS researchers are testing new commercial DE products in laboratory studies. DE is non-toxic to humans, but it kills red flour beetles and confused flour beetles, two of the food processing industry's worst insect pests. DE disrupts the insects' exoskeleton or skin, causing the insects to die from rapid water loss. According to ARS entomologist Frank H. Arthur, DE could be an alternative to methyl bromide, an ozone-depleting fumigant scheduled to be phased out by 2005. Fluctuations in temperature and relative humidity can affect the performance of DE products used to control insects. Adult insects were exposed to DE at various temperatures (70, 80, and 90 degrees F) and relative humidities (40, 57, and 75 percent). Exposure to DE at 80 degrees F. and 57 percent relative humidity for two days killed all red flour beetles, but three days were required to kill 100 percent of the confused flour beetles. DE kills insects quicker at higher temperatures and at lower humidities. Arthur is based at ARS' Grain Marketing and Production Research Center in Manhattan, Kan. His research also focuses on alternatives to insecticides used in raw grain storage. While DE is a good alternative to chemical insecticides, Arthur stresses the importance of combining a product like this with good sanitation. ARS is the chief research agency for the USDA. ---------- Scientific contact: Frank H. Arthur, ARS Grain Marketing and Production Research Center, Manhattan, Kan., phone (785) 776-2783, fax (785) 776-2792, arthur@usgmrl.ksu.edu. ---------- - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:24:20 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Hive rentals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Crutchfield wrote: I was just wondering what a person should charge for hive rentals. I'm sure you have talked about it before, but I haven't seen it. thanks in advance Hello Dennis, You didn't say what crops so hard to answer. The best rule of thumb is to figure your miles involved and time so you can figure the bottom line. Most growers are understanding and have a hard time getting bees so will pay resonable fees. The problem today is you can get a semi load overnight put good luck finding a few hives for polination. I had many people wanting bees for pumpkin polination. Until you get up into large numbers figure your bottom line and charge accordingly as you may be the only place they can get bees. Remember polination fees are low compared to what a apple grower pays for chemicals etc. I have had excellent dealings with growers(grower myself). Be honest and provide a hive capable of polination and chances are you can polinate for the grower from now on. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:35:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Hive rentals In-Reply-To: <200011270329.WAA25378@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I was just wondering what a person should charge for hive rentals. You might find this article by Joe Traynor to be of some help. "CHARGE MORE For Pollination" http://www.beesource.com/pov/traynor/bcaug1999.htm -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:16:11 +1100 Reply-To: Bindaree Bee Supplies Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bindaree Bee Supplies Organization: Bindaree Bee Supplies Subject: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I run a bee supply business in Canberra Australia and today I was asked = for an electronic queen bee finder. Has anyone heard of such a device = or where it can be obtained? There does not seem to be any mention in the archives. Thanks Richard Johnston Bindaree Bee Supplies http://www.bindaree.com.au 61 2 6281 2111 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:57:02 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Hive rentals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I began pollinating apples in 1982. The price at that time was $22. I thought that was pretty good - getting that check in June helped pay the bills. In recent years the price has risen to $35 (I actually have been getting $30, and the orchard moves the bees). I always knew the bees lost strength upon being moved. Rule of thumb is they lose about a super of honey, and that about equals the pollination fee. Well, I believe the bees lose more than that. Move half a yard sometime, and compare the bees after pollination. Not only do the bees lose that super of honey, but they lose enough strength to make a nuc. Also, you get way behind in your spring work so you can get your pollinators ready on time for a contract that has no date. I would think that taking all this into account, $50/colony/pollination should be received. Mike Dennis Crutchfield wrote: > Hello folks, > I was just wondering what a person should charge for hive rentals. > preacher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kelly DiSaia Subject: Science Investigation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi, I was told that you might be able to help me with an investigation I am doing for one of my college classes. I am a middle school education major and I am conducting a science investigation that might be appropriate for middle school students to do. Here are the details: During the summer I discovered a number of bees in my attic which I later determined to be yellowjackets. They were eventually exterminated but I was unable to retrieve the nest because it was too far back in between the walls of the house. I have some questions about why these bees chose to nest in my attic and about their behaviors. 1. Are there different types of yellow jackets? How can I determine what type of yellowjacket was in my attic? 2. Is it common for these bees to nest in homes and attics? Why? 3. What do their nests look like? 4. Do yellowjackets produce honey like regular bees? 5. What is the hierarchy among the yellowjackets? 6. Why are they so aggressive? I hope that you will be able to answer some of my questions. If you can't I would appreciate it if you could direct me to someone who can. Thank you for your time and I hope to hear from you soon. Kelly DiSaia kdisaia@hotmail.com _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:51:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim Stein Subject: Overwintering Weak Hive In-Reply-To: <200010181453.KAA15398@listserv.albany.edu> I am interested in what is involved in overwintering a weak hive on top of a strong hive using a double screen as a separator. I have a hive from a split that I did in mid summer and the foundation wasn't drawn out sufficiently to store enough honey for over wintering. I've been feeding them since summer but the bees didn't draw out the foundation as I had hoped. I was using Rite Cell plastic. I'm beginning to think the bees won't draw out this type of foundation except under high honey flow conditions. I've never done this type of overwintering so any info on techniques and potential problems would be appreciated. My hives are in Western PA, USA. I expect temperatures between 0 -20 F during January and February. Thanks Jim -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:37:14 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering In-Reply-To: <200011270425.XAA28414@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > ‘January 20, 1857: This month, the coldest on record > for more than 50 years, had furnished the most > decisive proof of the correctness of the views > advancsed in this Appendix on wintering bees in the > open air. My colonies have been exposed to a > temperature of 30 degrees below zero, the mercury for > two days never having risen above 6 degrees below, > and the wind blowing a strong gale the whole time! As we have learned repeatedly on this list, what is true in one geographical area, may be seriously false in another region. We sometimes have very long winters up here in Alberta. In my experience around here, bees will look good and survive until late February when wintered without wraps and with excessive air flow -- as described. Some years they may survive into spring in decent numbers, especially if they were very strong in fall, and especially if we have a long, open autumn, a mild winter, and an early spring. However, in other more normal or extreme years, they may dwindle and/or die in sufficient numbers to break any beekeeper who tries this. FWIW, we've learned that survival rates and hive condition in January is meaningless. We don't bother to check much then, since only the poorest hives succumb by then; we check in March. Moreover, in our experience, hives wintered without sufficient protection usually cannot be split in the spring; they may look okay, but be just enough weaker than a well-wintered colony that they do not give increase. This loss of opportunity is very costly, since numbers must be made up somehow. I'm curious. What does his record say in March, April, and May about those same bees, or does he have much less to say then? allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:42:28 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Help with honey bee chemistry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In "Hive and the Honey Bee" it says that ...invertase is added to honey by honey bees to convert the sucrose found in nectar to dextrose and levulose. The result is a more stable, higher-solid product which increases the efficency of the ripening process. What exactly does that mean...is there less sugar loss during evaporation, or what? Is there a chemistry-oriented beekeeper out there who knows? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:14:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: TM in crisco Comments: To: arl@q7.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Al and Everyone, Good thread with many good posts but I have a couple of comments below: Al wrote in part "AFB is more difficult to take out. It reproduces by forming spores, millions of them. Another well known spore forming bacteria would be Anthrax. The "parent" bacteria are killed by antibiotic but the spores are not touched. These spores are picked up by bees cleaning up the brood cells and get into everything. They get into the honey, wax and propolis and onto the wooden ware. As soon as you stop the antibiotic treatment the spores that are picked up will start to survive and reproduce again. Now you have a hive that is a infection source for every hive in a two to three mile radius, or more! Move a frame from this hive to a clean hive and you have sealed its fate. Let it get weak and robbed out and a dozen others are gone. The spores get into the guts of field bees and if they drift to another hive empty their nectar, along with spores into the new hive. Each of these hives now requires you to start antibiotic treatment. These treatments will never end. The spores will outlive the beekeeper." First I would like to try to correct some misconception regarding the AFB bacteria. Bacteria do not reproduce by producing spores. Bacterial spores are part of the life cycle of spore forming bacteria that allow the bacteria to survive unfavorable environmental conditions. One bacterial cell produces one spore maybe a fine point here but when you see those big numbers of spores in a single AFB scale everyone of them came from a different bacterial cell that reproduces by fission or cell division. TM or OTC prevents the germination of the spores and so prevent the disease as well as production of more spores. That's the biology lesson. The interaction between the host bee colony and the disease is much more complex that the simple if there are AFB spores present the colony breaks down with AFB. Colonies also have resistance mechanisms that have to be overcome to induce disease. There are also mechanisms by which a colony can remove the disease or spores from the hive. As Allen points out taking colonies off treatment does not necessary result in an outbreak of AFB. I know of a case here a commercial outfit had a major outbreak of resistant AFB and the beekeeper by culling and replacing diseased combs has turned the situation around as far as active disease is concerned. He may be using antibiotics but a sample of his honey from the extractor taken this fall - note one small sample from a large commercial outfit - was sent in for AFB spore testing and came back negative ( no spores found - limits of the test are about 100 spores per oz of honey ). With the disease levels in this outfit 5 years ago one ! would have expected some spores to be found in the honey but the test did not find any. Now before you get excited about drawing conclusions from one small sample in a large outfit inspections of many colonies showed the same result just like before TM resistance this beekeeper knows how to keep his colonies AFB free. If he stops all treatments will AFB show up - probably in some hives but not likely to be anywhere near the numbers of 5 years ago. In the field drug treatment along with culling of combs with disease or scale results in healthy colonies of bees for years in the same equipment. Dr Spivak has also shown that not all colonies that are exposed to large numbers of spores ( comb with AFB scales ) ever show any symptoms of AFB and some that show a few cells can clean it up without drugs. I think the evidence is there that Allen is right - properly used drug treatment can cure honey bee colonies of AFB. Proper treatment is the key and culling of any visibly diseas! ed combs. One little note: Do I used TM? Not any more used to but now don't but only have 4 colonies and know how to identify disease. Can afford the time to check those few colonies for disease a few times each year. Would I use TM if operating many more colonies - certainly managing AFB is cheaper and easier with drugs than without but would still be alert for disease and destroy diseased combs as quickly as found and may even just burn whole hives instead of spending the time to treat properly diseased colonies - time that would then not be available for managing the other colonies. FWIW Thanks to all for a very interesting thread. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 07:41:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: Science Investigation Comments: cc: kdisaia@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <200011271409.JAA05531@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There are many species of yellowjacket wasp. A good key to NW U.S. species, by Matthew Kweskin, Evergreen State College, can be found at http://www.evergreen.edu/user/serv_res/research/arthropod/TESCBiota/TESCBiota.html A publication that will answer most of your questions is the W.S.U. publication, "Yellowjackets and Paperwasps", at http://www.cahe.wsu.edu/infopub/eb0643/eb0643.html Cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: over-wintering weak hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim asked about over-wintering a weak hive above a double screened strong hive. This probably will not work as the weak hive will not have enough stores. Better to put the hive directly on top of the strong hive, with no barrier. Then they will gradually combine during the winter, and you may even end up with a 2-queen hive in the spring that you can split! Good luck, Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:46:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > First I would like to try to correct some misconception > regarding the AFB bacteria. Bacteria do not reproduce by > producing spores. Bacterial spores are part of the life > cycle of spore forming bacteria that allow the bacteria to > survive unfavorable environmental conditions. Thanks for clearing that up. For some reason I had gotten it into my head that at the end of the fission process you had a bunch of spores. If I understand the process correctly a spore is formed when the bacteria covers itself in a protein coating in order to survive inhospitable conditions. Some information found on spores: http://preserve.nal.usda.gov:8300/jag/v8/v8i11/080399/a080399.htm (kind of old) http://falcon.cc.ukans.edu/~jbrown/jurassic.html (even has bees) http://www.sidwell.edu/~bgravitz/bio/bio.html#bac (Antibiotic resistance experiment, good information) > As Allen points > out taking colonies off treatment does not necessary result > in an outbreak of AFB. My guess is that long term use of antibiotic should reduce the spore count. As spores become active the antibiotic present gets them. I guess there is some density of the bacteria that would need to be present in the gut of a larvae to kill it before it became an adult. If you stay below that level you don't start the "kill larvae"/"clean scale from cell"/"reinfect larvae" cycle with the house bees. > Allen is right - properly used drug treatment can cure honey > bee colonies of AFB. Proper treatment is the key and culling > of any visibly diseased combs. Cure? Control? I guess what matters is the outfit can continue to operate and make its owner some money. Provided of course that no greater damage is being done. There is some concern about long term, low level exposure to antibiotics but the third link I posted above shows that we do not as yet have all of the answers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:34:52 -0700 Reply-To: darn@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering In-Reply-To: <200011271444.JAA07048@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Allen Dick wrote: ... As we have learned repeatedly on this list, what is true in one geographical area, may be seriously false in another region. We sometimes have very long winters up here in Alberta. In my experience around here, bees will look good and survive until late February when wintered without wraps and with excessive air flow -- as described.... It may be of interest to the group to see a short article I wrote for the "Alberta Bee New" last summer. It details my experience with overwintering hives with screened bottom boards. Note that although the screened bottom boards were left open to the ground the hives were insulated with 1" of styrofoam everywhere else. They were on 2X6 rails in rows of 5. Open Screen Bottom Boards in Central Alberta Recently there have been a number of articles written suggesting the use of screened bottom boards for control of Varroa mites. A comprehensive article in APIS written by Malcolm T Sanford is available on the University of Florida website at : http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis99/apaug99.htm#1 The advantages claimed for the boards are: 1. Mites which fall from adult bees go through the mesh and are unable to reattach themselves. 2. Brood rearing ends sooner in the fall and starts later in the spring. This provides a longer broodless period which aids in mite control. 3. A space under the mesh is provided for easy installation of a sticky board for Varroa testing. 4. Upper entrances for wintering are not required. 5. Entrance reducers are not required. The bottom board is provided with a 5/16” x 3” entrance which is sufficient for bee passage during the honey flow and ventilation is provided via the screen. 6. Bees do not cluster outside the hive in hot weather. 7. Bees can be moved without providing extra ventilation. 8. Wintering results are better due to the prolonged broodless period. The wintering bees are not stressed by having to keep brood warm and fed. More pollen is available for spring buildup. 9. Wet debris does not plug up the bottom boards at the end of winter. 10. The bees are claimed to be nicer to work with, possibly due to there being continuous light through the screen. The only downside mentioned is increased use of winter feed and, of course, the cost of building and installing the new boards. I thought it would be good to try a few of the boards last fall. Six were made and installed under fairly weak hives made up from late swarms and combined weak colonies. The results were encouraging, as all the screened hives survived the winter. I checked them in early April and found that the claim of late spring brood rearing was justified. The hives with screened bottom boards had only one or two frames of largely unsealed brood, while comparable hives with solid bottom boards and top entrances had two or three frames with sealed brood. In early May, the screened hives had an average of 3 frames of sealed brood. As of May 16 they had an average of 6 frames of sealed brood. The bottom boards did not require any cleaning while some of the solid ones were plugged with wet grunge. The bees did not seem any nicer to work with than those with regular bottom boards. I have been using sticky boards to monitor for mites under the screened hives. They are easy to install and remove (no mites so far!). My hives are located about 10 miles north of Edmonton. Since the article was written our honey has been extracted. The over wintered osbb hives produced about 10% less than conventional hives. I put three more hives on the osbb system in the spring and these hives produced about the same as the conventional ones. With a sample size of only six and three the honey figures probably don't mean much. Best regards, Donald Aitken Edmonton Alberta Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:57:48 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry In-Reply-To: <200011271659.LAA11120@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:42 AM -0500 00/11/27, Rick Green wrote: >In "Hive and the Honey Bee" it says that ...invertase is added to honey by >honey bees to convert the sucrose found in nectar to dextrose and levulose. >The result is a more stable, higher-solid product which increases the >efficency of the ripening process. > >What exactly does that mean...is there less sugar loss during evaporation, or >what? >Is there a chemistry-oriented beekeeper out there who knows? yes, I'm a biochemist. The sucrose molecule is split, by adding a water molecule's constituent 3 atoms (a process called hydrolysis), to produce one molecule of glucose and one of fructose. (The old names for those sugars which you quoted should be disused.) The main effect is not on 'sugar loss during evaporation', a very minor process as far as I've heard - sugars are not volatile materials in these conditions - but in doubling the sugar concentration, an effect which is compounded by deliberate evaporation of water to produce a concentrated sugar solution in which few if any microbes can live. This hydrolysis is catalysed (speeded) by that specific enzyme from the bees. I can make little of the final sentence in the quote. Sucrose is not inherently unstable under the conditions of ripening; and 'the efficiency of the ripening process' means little to me; it sounds as if written by an economist. The hydrolysis of sucrose to the two other sugars is only the most obvious change. Many other chemical changes are wrought by the bees in converting nectar to honey. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 13:43:35 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > As Allen points > > out taking colonies off treatment does not necessary result > > in an outbreak of AFB. My guess is that long term use of antibiotic should reduce the spore count. As spores become active the antibiotic present gets them. I guess there is some density of the bacteria that would need to be present in the gut of a larvae to kill it before it became an adult. If you stay below that level you don't start the "kill larvae"/"clean scale from cell"/"reinfect larvae" cycle with the house bees. Adding to the above: Bucher(1958) determined the LD50* of bacillus larvae to be 35 spores in one-day-old honey bee larvae. *LD 50 The dose(number of microorganisms) that will kill 50% of the animals(honey bee larvae) in a test series. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:29:34 +0100 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: >> At 11:42 AM -0500 00/11/27, Rick Green wrote: > >In "Hive and the Honey Bee" it says that ...invertase is added to honey by > >honey bees to convert the sucrose found in nectar to dextrose and levulose. > >The result is a more stable, higher-solid product which increases the > >efficency of the ripening process. > The sucrose molecule is split, by adding a water molecule's constituent 3 > atoms (a process called hydrolysis), more on http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/suger.html That's the ripening process but after free glucose is present cristalition will starts Chemical determination of a in two layer divided honey top layer, down layer, liquid cristallist liquid 20,3% 9.8% sugars fruktose 61.1% 37,8% glucose 26,1% 54,9% sucharose 0,5% 0,3% maltose 10,4% 5,8% isomaltose 0,9% 0,4% triose 1,0% 0,8% glucose/water relation 1,28 5,6 >From the "honingboek" of the Koninklijke Vlaamse Imker Bond (Belgium) hope it helps regards, jant -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 mobile: 06 10719917 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:11:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michele Arquette Subject: Finding an Observation Hive I am interested in replacing observation hives at the nature center I work at. I was very interested in the ones made by Draper Bee ( seen at Draperbee.com ) . The old model we had was constructed long ago by who knows ? . I feel it was very difficult to maintain . I have seen many plans on the web. It may be possible for me to have one built . Can anyone suggest a particular model over another or maybe any idea on how the ones made by Draper Bee are working out. ??? I am still a green horn at Beekeeping any suggestions would be helpful.Thank you Michele ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 14:11:57 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen and all interested, Here in Alaska I have noted the same sort of poor survival you mentioned, regardless of protection. Of course our winters are even longer than yours, but the problem I have seen is that the bees we bring in from California will rarely have a queen begin laying before pollen is coming in. I have had significant success using Dave Eyre's queens, but I have not been at it long enough to pin down just what factor is at work. I have, at the same time as switching to queens from Dave, switched to a yeast based pollen supplement, and have switched from heavy fall feeding to continuous "trickle feeding" all winter. I winter with (assuming I am on the ball) a reduced but open bottom entrance plus a 2 inch by one quarter inch top openning. My hives are covered on all but the bottom board with 2 inches of blueboard (styrofoam). I have not had any problem with mildew, etc since beginning this method. Would you say that you had any similar problems with getting queens to lay before the US boarder was closed to bees? I appreciate your comments about January. In years past we would do a cursory exam during the winter, only looking at number of bees. We had strong colonies thru about the end of February. Then by the end of March we would have from nothing to a handful or so of bees. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:54:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick. I will try to answer, but do it in layman's language rather than the language of a chemist. When you think of "sugar", you think of that white crystalline stuff on your table that you use to sweeten your coffee or tea. However, chemically speaking, sugars are a whole group of chemicals which are carbohydrates, some sweeter than others, some solid and some liquid, some with a very complicated chemical structure and others with a very simple chemical structure. That "stuff" in your sugar bowl is the chemical "sucrose", a di-saccharide with a slightly complicated chemical structure. Invertase is a protein "enzyme". An "enzyme" is much like a the igniter of a bomb, or a catalyst, that makes chemical reactions happen. The honey bee makes invertase in its own body. By the way, so do YOU - Your pancreas manufactures invertase to restructure the sugar you eat. If your body fails to make invertase, you are a diabetic. (I don't charge for medical advice. Ha Ha!) All nectar is a watery solution of SUCROSE. The honey bee gathers it up in its honey stomach, flies home with it and injects invertase into it, the nurse bees spread this "treated" nectar around and ripen it by evaporating the high water content of perhaps 80% water down to only about 14%-18% water. The invertase has "broken" the di-saccharide, SUCROSE, into TWO mono-saccharides, DEXTROSE and FRUCTOSE, both of which are "simple sugars", some times called "blood sugars" because those are the sugars in human blood after your invertase has "broken" down that sugar you put in your coffee. At room temperatures, dextrose is a solid, but fructose is a liquid. When the nectar from some plant like goldenrod is broken down into dextrose and fructose, it is high in glucose; and hence, goldenrod honey crystallizes rather quickly (turning to sugar). Oppositely, when nectar from tulip polar trees is broken down into dextrose and fructose, it is very high in fructose; and hence, tulip poplar honey is very slow to crystallize. I am a retired scientist who has kept bees scientifically for 69 years. I hope that I have helped. George W. Imirie, Jr. EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:19:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that there is right on both sides of the TM argument and reappearance of AFB in hives when treatment is stopped. One ex-beekeeper I know had AFB and used TM to treat for it. Did so for a couple of years but my guess is he kept his contaminated frames and used TM to mask the disease. When he got busy doing other things, his hives collapsed with AFB, infecting other apiaries in the area. Had he been a good beekeeper, he would have got rid of the frames harboring the AFB and treated. He probably would have had the results of those who say TM is all you need and do not need to burn. A good beekeeper would not leave frames with heavy AFB scale in a hive. In essence, he has burned the frames by removing them. And even if they do not remove all of the frames, most good beekeepers replace their frames over a five to ten year period. So if TM is continually applied to the hive, the AFB is eventually removed before it can re-infect the hive. What you have is two different approaches to the use of TM or any disease treatment. Take malaria. You can issue quinine or whatever the treatment is now to everyone and continue that treatment forever, or you can drain the swamp and get rid of the mosquitos and could continue to treat just in case. In the former case, the treatment will keep the disease in check, but discontinue treatment and the disease will reappear since you never got rid of the mosquitos. In the second, since you took care of the mosquitos, you could be fine even without the quinine, since it is being used as a preventative. So when you treat over a long time and gradually or quickly replace AFB infected frames, you are draining the swamp and treating the bees until and after the swamp no longer is a problem. If you burn, you drain the swamp immediately and remove the problem, so you do not need to treat. So, proponents of non burning are right, if the AFB is eventually removed. Burning just takes care of all the other beekeepers who relax in there management practices. Like the first hives I bought as a new beekeeper which were infected with AFB. Burning also removes any concern about long term resistance to TM. Personally, I would rather drain the swamp than drink quinine for the rest of my life. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 22:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <200011280144.UAA25964@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So, proponents of non burning are right, if the AFB is > eventually removed. > Burning just takes care of all the other beekeepers who relax in there > management practices. Like the first hives I bought as a new beekeeper > which were infected with AFB. > Very good point! Maybe one of the reasons that mandatory burning worked so well is that poor beekeepers who let the inspector catch them did not keep bees too long. Good beekeepers would rather scrap a little comb (and maybe add a little TM) than lose an entire hive. Other factors that I would guess would make a big differance is buying queens from good breeders and keeping the hive strong and treated for mites. - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 02:04:19 +0100 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: > All nectar is a watery solution of SUCROSE. ????? Sugar contents of NECTAR: Dutch American name glucose fruktose saccharose gemiddeld average 35% 40% 5% uitschieters: high flyers: Sinapis alba gele mosterd white mustard 55% 46% 0% Brassia napis koolzaad Rape 55% 45% 2% Trifolium repens witte klaver White Clover 10% 27% 63% Salvia sofficinalis salie Sage 5% 18% 76% Rhododendron ferrugineum alpenroosje Alpenrose 0% 0% 100% from: Der Honig; E. Zander en A. Maurizio -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 mobile: 06 10719917 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:55:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry/round two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great explanations of inverting of sucrose to glucose and fructose but w-h-y do the bees do it? Can they metabolise it better? Can they digest it better? Or as Robert from New Zeland suggests, the resultant mixture is more concentrated becase for each molecule of sucrose there are now two molecules, one of glucose and the other of fructose? What is the advantage to the bee of inverting sucrose? Thank you all for your insights, Rick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:44:19 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Overwintering Weak Hive Comments: To: jstein@WORLDNET.ATT.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Jim Stein wrote: > > I've been feeding > them since summer but the bees didn't draw out the > foundation as I had hoped. I was using Rite Cell >plastic. I'm beginning to think the bees won't draw >out this type of foundation except under high honey >flow conditions. > I have had very good luck with various brands of the plastic foundations- including Rite-cell. The bees do need to have some nectar or syrup coming in to build comb, but I have not found that a "high" nectar flow is necessary. I have noticed tht some hives are better comb builders than others, and some hives never seem to really "take off". The slow pokes are hopeless for drawing out comb, weather plastic or wax foundtion is used. All in all I have had better results with the plastic foundation than with wax foundation- probably because I am not the best at getting the wax foundation in tight and straight. My plastic foundation combs are much straighter, and have fewer drone cells than my wax based ones. I have mixed wax and plastic in a few hives, and while the bees did draw out the wax faster when the combs were being filled with honey, I found that in a box placed directly over the brood nest, the queen moved right up and started laying eggs in the undrawn plastic cell bases- forcing the workers to draw them up in an effort to keep up with her! I have never seen a queen do this with untouched wax foundation. When I find a hive that has a queen that does this- lays eggs faster than the workers can draw out the foundation, I mark that hive to be a real "Boomer" and give it plenty of empty supers to draw out- and I'm usually pleased with the results. Ellen Anglin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:37:16 +0100 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: Help with honey bee chemistry/round two MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Green wrote: > Great explanations of inverting of sucrose to glucose and fructose but w-h-y > do the bees do it? Don't forget that your saliva(?) contains 1000 time more invertase than honey. Otherwise you can not absorb the sugers other than fluctose and glucose. By inverting of sucrose you get your glucose and fructose. Will you muscle still working....... they need some fuel........ regards, jan -- Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 mobile: 06 10719917 http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:56:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <200011280143.UAA25955@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Had he been a good beekeeper... my guess is... How can anyone be a judge -- especially from a distance? Who knows why the hives broke down again? Why had they broken down the first time? Could that have not been the cause the second time? And a third or fourth? Why guess? Is the man dumb? Can he not speak? It may have been honey in a local dump that caused the second breakdown -- or his ignorance, or just dumb luck? Who will ever know? What does it matter? We know how to control the situation and reduce the infestation levels towards zero. If we talk. Calling one beekeeper 'good' and, I suppose, another 'bad' is not at all useful IMO. who ever sets out to be a 'bad' beekeeper? That kind of finger-pointing and value judgement is s simply destructive and contributes to the kind of alienation that prevents our working together and understanding what is happening. What IS certain is that guessing is wrong if the facts are available, and facts these days are abundant. > Take malaria. You can issue quinine or whatever the treatment is > now to everyone and continue that treatment forever, or you can drain the > swamp... There was a time when we thought we could just drain all the swamps, but now we know that is not a good idea. We are in a new world where there are no right or wrong answers, and each situation is unique. Sometimes we drain a swamp, and other times we find another way. Old paradigms die hard. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Overwintering Weak Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't use a double screen. Use the inner cover. Place the rim side up, and clost the escape hole with duct tape. Give the weak hive an entrance to the rear. 30 lbs of feed is probably enough. Wrap them as you do the other colonies. Jim Stein wrote: > I am interested in what is involved in overwintering a weak hive on top of > a strong hive using a double screen as a separator. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Finding an Observation Hive Comments: To: Michele Arquette MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > ... or maybe any idea on how the ones made by > Draper Bee are working out? After years of coveting the Draper Observation Hive, I purchased one this spring. Draper even delivered it right to the University (which is less than a mile from the highway exchange they were passing through enroute to a show in Massachusetts). I was extremely pleased with the Ob-hive. I purchased the oak model with no ornate window frames, just the solid glass window. I consider the ob-hive more like a fine piece of furniture! As with all ob-hives, the largest drawback is that there simply is not sufficient room for a growing colony. I had to move it to lose the field bees. I placed a nuc at the original site to receive the field bees from the ob-hive. The only other problem (and this was a problem with the beekeeper, not the ob-hive) came when working the hive. I opened the hinged door and worked the bees with no problem. However, when I closed the door, many bees had moved into the door jam and got squished when I closed the door. It was very stressful both on bees and beekeeper. I opened the door up and cleaned up the carnage, and once aware of the problem I am always careful to clear bees from the door jam before I close the door. I have not tried overwintering bees in this ob-hive. That's a tough task in my upstate New York climate. The bees have a better chance overwintering as a nuc atop an established hive. I highly recommend the Draper Ob-Hive, which they bill as "The Ultimate in Observation Hives". It truly is once you get past the sticker shock. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:26:14 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain People have gotten pretty far a field from the original discussion of whether it was a good practice to us hygienic bees and to: 1) replace 2 old combs per hive body each year with new frames and foundation 2) not routinely treat with TM until you find AFB 3) inspect often for AFB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Finding an Observation Hive MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Draper makes a very beautiful observation hive. I have installed a few of theirs as well as my own designs and overseen their maintenance. For the quality and features, I don't think their price can be beaten. I recommend theirs when the site is going to be continually supervised. Observation hives are inherently difficult to maintain. They are continually on the verge of swarming or collapsing due to limited space and the sequence of seasons. This is often compounded by them being overseen by non-beekeepers. I regularly make service calls where the park management say that everything is going good in my pre-visit telephone call but I find just the opposite that can recognized by an experienced beekeeper when still ten feet away. I find that the spindles Draper uses for decoration on the outside tend to be grabbed for turning the hive. In an unsupervised area with a lot of traffic, this leads to them working loose. Since many of the installations I have are in areas that are not continually supervised, I have added security features such as a turntable lock-down, at the request of park personnel. I have twice had to do emergency services because someone put a brick through the glass when untended and have added removable locking cover panels to my latest designs. My web page covers some of the things I've considered in Observation hive setups but I haven't gotten photos of my latest design up on the web. I plan on doing that over Christmas Holiday. I wrote a booklet directed to the park personnel on hive management requirements to consider for a setup which I am told has been very useful. It is available through my web page. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:48:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Finding an Observation Hive In-Reply-To: <200011281430.JAA07955@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > After years of coveting the Draper Observation Hive, I purchased one this > spring. Draper even delivered it... I have a Draper observation hive, and Draper delivers it daily. I keep it right here on my desktop... (Windows(r) active desktop, that is). It is a *virtual* OH. and I don't have much maintenance, since it is automatically refreshed from http://www.draperbee.com/webcam/pic/image.jpg periodically. allen More OH info is available at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Observation.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:43:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have never seen one but have often considered the idea. I work in electronics and believe that the solution is to glue an RF ID tag onto the queen's thorax. The antenna is limited in size by the thorax size. An RF ID tag is the kind of thing they are using to track pallets, luggage and packages in new facilities. Every item in a warehouse can be inventoried and located by this technology. The advantage over bar-codes is that the package does not have to be in a particular orientation to read and it can be read from a large distance. They are developing low cost ones that can be put on grocery items so a filled cart can be wheeled past the interrogation antenna and a complete list of everything in the shopping cart can be generated and billed. The concept would be for a handheld interrogator like a radar gun would be aimed at the hive to interrogate the RF ID Tag. A response would show that the tag was still in the hive. Since dead queens are dumped outside, a superceded queen would have the tag missing and no response. The response could contain an individual ID number or even data on the queen breeder and the year of birth. As the hive is opened, the scanning could be over a single frame to pin-point the queen. I worked the design a while back and found it un-economical. Too often the realization of something is limited by economics rather that possibility. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:40:38 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Hamilton wrote: People have gotten pretty far a field from the original discussion of whether it was a good practice to us hygienic bees and to: Hello Dave and all, Many times discussion covers many topics and opinions. I like to see both sides of a issue shown as long as feelings are not hurt and i believe the moderators of Bee-L take greater care than other lists. In my own case i have had the moderators change the subject label on a post which has taken another direction but let the discussion continue because they felt the issue would be of interest to others on the list. On the good beekeeper -bad beekeeper. I believe and have said at several of my talks usually the difference between the good beekeeper and the bad (less successful) is the amount of time spent working his or her bees. I keep records of total time spent in the yards so i can figure *bottom line*. Divide the hours by the number of hives and you get a hourly figure per hive. Not rocket science and used by all beekeepers wishing to figure the amount of hours spent on your hobby or business. I am not sure what the average time per colony is supposed to be but *on average* commercial beekeepers *in my opinion* spend about half that time. I have read about six hours per colony to be the average time for success but i can't remember the place i saw the figure and really don't think it matters enough in this post for me to try and find a figure. How can you set a figure with different degrees of beekeeper expertice. Commercial beekeepers *usually* get less yields per colony than hobby beekeepers which devote say twice the average time. Looking back at years i have had the most problems and less success those are ALLWAYS years with less time spent per hive. In other words its hard to tell whats going on in those hives sitting in the easy chair with a remote in your hand. Also we all lead busy lives with family demands so there are many valid reasons (weather) why work isn't done. In a earlier post i was asking about a *farm trac* program which could be used for beekeeping. The *farm trac* representative was surprised when i asked about keeping track of hours per enterprise. He said quote: 95% of farmers in the U.S. don't keep track of the hours per enterprise. I asked how they could keep track of their bottom line? He said *they don't* but could with *Farm Trac*. Allen Dick as shown at his *Beekeepers diary* keeps accurate records on his bottom line. To sum up i believe ones beekeeping results many times can be traced to the effort he or she has put in the endeavor. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:32:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Seppo Korpela Organization: Agricultural Research Centre of Finland Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder In-Reply-To: <01JX1H7ETXKKFVV6LZ@mtt.fi> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On the web pages of RIRDC (Australia) http://www.rirdc.gov.au/comp00/hb2.html#NewProjects it can be foud that they have a project to develop a device for finding queen bees in managed beehives. Nothing is told whether this device is electronic or not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:04:48 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all The same sort of chip that is used to identify pet dogs and cats could surely be used on the back of a queen? Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:21:56 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Finding an Observation Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michele Arquette wrote: I have seen many plans on the web. It may be possible for me to have one built . Can anyone suggest a particular model over another or maybe any idea on how the ones made by Draper Bee are working out. Hello Michele and all, Actually the Draper OB hives work very well. One is in operation at *The Berry Patch* at Cleveland, Missouri. The hive however is mantained by Roger Nichols, president of the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. and commercial beekeeper. About any design of observation Hive could be mantained with proper care but attention to detail is paramount. Kind of like keeping a fish aquarium or ant farm. Many of todays beekeepers started as a child with a ant farm in a study i read. Larger OB hive would certainly be easier than small. I believe Drapers OB hive is one of the largest on the market. The only improvement i would make in the Draper OB hive( I have used the hive at shows for many years) would be to make a way to lock the hive in position when unattended. We have had trouble with children trying to spin the hive like a merry go around. The hive is top heavy so care needs to used when transporting the Draper hive. Both small points when considering the overall features of the hive. I would consider the hive one of best on the market. If you could get another beekeeper with greater experience to help then i would think your chances for success would be improved. Because you have got hives of your own then the OB hive could be redone as many times as needed. The Draper hive can be carried to the bee yard to be redone(big advantage). I would think(in my opinion) only putting the OB hive on display during the summer months if you live in a cold climate would be better and returning the bees to a regular hive for winter or wintering over a strong hive might be better for winter. Emerging Brood ,nurse bees and honey /pollen would need to be added to winter from your other colony. The above is only a rough draft of things that might need to be done. The commitment is great if a truly great example of a OB hive is to be maintained. Better no hive than a poor example with numerous dead bees, disease and poor comb looking like the neglected fish tank. Because you are interested in doing something for the betterment of beekeeping and the enjoyment of others i have taken the time to try and answer your question. I wish i had time for a year around OB hive but will have to be content like Allen Dick to watch Drapers on the net. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:38:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Beeswax Filtration/Purification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I have had numerous replies clarifying the difference between Diatomaceous Earth and Bentonite. Thank you all for the information. I have some thoughts about using bentonite...When this is used to clarify wine it is mixed in thoroughly and it flocculates. As this flocculation settles to the bottom it drags with it any suspended particles in the wine. This all happens at room temperature. Our beeswax is solid at this "normal" temperature...If we mix bentonite with water at say 80 degrees C, will it still flocculate? Would the resulting suspension be alkaline and saponify the beeswax? Some years ago I read of a method of purifying beeswax using wax melted in 10% water with a teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide added (at just less than boiling point) the H2O2 boiled vigorously with very small bubbles wetting any particles that were in suspension in the wax. (there also may have been a bleaching action due to the H2O2). This sounds dangerous to me...Does anyone have any experiance of this technique? Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:11:21 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All ----- Original Message contained From: Dave Hamilton > 1) replace 2 old combs per hive body each year with new frames and > foundation For many years I advised UK beekeepers to replace three brood combs every season, partly for disease control and partly to satisfy the bees natural urge to draw comb. I changed my mind several years ago...due to watching a colony in a church tower...They replaced their comb at a rate of about 30% per year and so I now advise 4 fresh foundations per year per colony. (we have 11 combs in our UK hives). It seems that we in the UK have changed our comb more frequently than those in USA for a long period of time. Is this a manifestation of differences in climate/forage or does this have a bearing on our low incedence of disease? Best Regards, Dave Cushman G8MZY Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:04:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: TM in crisco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave, Yes use hygienic bees! I'm going with NWC use whatever race you want. Just remember hygienic lines have to be maintained and may be allot of work(what isn't?). Answer to question #1: Why replace frames? Only replace frames when you need to such as disease, to much drone comb, ect. Don't through your money out if these frames are still good. Question #2: The point of using hygienic bees is so they will remove diseases, right? Therefore treatment could be discontinued. BUT!!!, keep tight reigns on your hygienic stock. Question #3:You will have to inspect often if you pursue this route. I would compromise and dust with TM every other year or third year. Humans make mistakes so if you missed a hive with a miniscule amount of disease it would help keep it in check until you discovered it. Clayton ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Hamilton To: Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 6:26 AM Subject: Re: TM in crisco > People have gotten pretty far a field from the original discussion of > whether it was a good practice to us hygienic bees and to: > > 1) replace 2 old combs per hive body each year with new frames and > foundation > 2) not routinely treat with TM until you find AFB > 3) inspect often for AFB > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:16:30 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: AHP votes to redo NHB! Happy Days, Happy Days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HOT NEWS FLASH=20 The American Honey Producers Association=20 needs petitions, asking for the reorganization of the National Honey = Board, from 10 % of the assessment paying Honey Board members "who" = voted in the last referendum. More details to follow soon.=20 If you voted in the recent National Honey Board referendem, which was = defeated by the American beekeepers, and want to change the National = Honey Board to promote only U.S.A. honey please file a petition with the = Ameriacan Honey Producers Association. Anyone needing a copy of the petition may contact me by e-mail, phone, = or postage. I will mail, fax , or e-mail you a copy of the petition for = you to fill out and mail back to the American Honey Producers.=20 The American Honey Producers Association will, when they have the = petitions from 10 % of the voters in the last referendum, ask the USDA = to act accordingly with the provisions of the Honey Marketing Act to = reorganize the National Honey Board to promote only U.S.A. Honey.=20 What a special day for American beekeepers. I encourage everyone to congratulate members of the American Honey = Producers Association for this much needed change. I will be joining the = American Honey Producers Association, and hope some of you will also = join. All the Best, Happy Holidays,=20 " carpe diem " make the most of the present opportunities Walter Patton Beekeeper - Hawaii Tourguide=20 Hawaiian Honey House 100 % Hawaii Honey = =20 A Hawaii Beekeepers Bed and Breakfast # 1 Mukai Pl., P.O. Box 430 Papaikou, HI 96781 Ph./Fax. 1-808-964-5401 e-mail HiHoney@HawaiiHoney.Com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:56:56 -0800 Reply-To: mejensen@att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Jensen Organization: No Junk Mail Subject: Re: Beeswax Filtration/Purification In-Reply-To: <200011281755.MAA15049@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:38:30 -0000, Dave Cushman wrote: >Some years ago I read of a method of purifying beeswax using wax melted in >10% water with a teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide added (at just less than >boiling point) the H2O2 boiled vigorously with very small bubbles wetting >any particles that were in suspension in the wax. (there also may have been >a bleaching action due to the H2O2). > >This sounds dangerous to me...Does anyone have any experiance of this >technique? I use H2O2 to lighten the color of already clean filtered beeswax. I add about a cup of 35% H2O2 (not the 3% from the drugstore) to about 90 lbs of wax at about 180 deg F. The wax foams up for quite some time, and care has to be taken that the container is deep enough that it will not overflow. After about 1/2 hour the H2O2 is boiled off and the foaming stops. It will be noticeably lighter in color and clearer in the liquid state. The only danger with this procedure would come from an overflow. The foaming wax in the container does not seem to be flammable at these temperatures. -- Mark Jensen Double J Apiaries mejensen@att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:14:18 -0500 Reply-To: arl@q7.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Subject: Re: TM in crisco In-Reply-To: <200011281402.JAA06907@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > There was a time when we thought we could just drain all the > swamps, but now we > know that is not a good idea. We are in a new world where > there are no right or > wrong answers, and each situation is unique. Sometimes we > drain a swamp, and > other times we find another way. > If there are no right or wrong answers then why bother? Take careful measurements for the experiment? Why bother? You will not get a "right" answer. I don't want to offend but the concept of no right and wrong is nonsense. There are things that are black. There are things that are white. There are things that are shades of grey. There are also red, green and blue. There are things so complex that we lack the ability to even start to understand how they work. There are many simple answers, few easy solutions. Need more room? Move the mountain. Simple? Yes. Easy? No. Same with the TM issue? Detect AFB burn the hives. Sounds good until you get a 10% infection rate. After reading Allen's diary every day solid for the last few months I doubt his operation could have withstood a 3% infection rate. I agree with George's advice that burning is best on one front but sometimes what is best for the forest is not good for individual trees. If we ignore the needs of enough trees then we don't have much of a forest anymore. There is a right answer to all of this. One best solution. I am just not sure anyone knows what that is. I hope that between science and skill we find it. - "One of the best examples of pure democracy in action is the lynch mob" - AA4YU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:18:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder In-Reply-To: <200011281754.MAA14971@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:04 PM 11/28/00 -0000, you wrote: Hi, we got a lot of press a year ago about a chip that we developed with Ron Gilbert at BPNNL labs. It is exactly what Ray and Dave are suggesting. But, it isn't as simple as it sounds: 1. The economics are still not good, you have to mass produce and be able to obtain a large mass market (lots of sales) before anyone will fund this development. 2. The chip has to be a miniature of those used on dogs, cats, fish, Levi pants, etc. The garment industry can afford to buy lots of chips if it helps it find clones of brand name clothes from overseas. They had a chip that could be sown into the seam of a pair of pants. The chip that would cost about 25 cents, but that's only if you bought hundreds of thousands of chips. And, it didn't hold up to industrial clothes dryers. 3. We had a 27 mg chip that worked on a bee, but it was too heavy and fat for a worker to carry and would have been knocked off a queen. We know of a less than 10 mg chip that will work. But then you have to redesign the signal receiver. And the chips cost more than the queen. 4. The antennae is still the killer obstacle (we have a way to fix this, but the initial tooling up will cost a bundle). 5. The receiver has to penetrate some distance, and hives have metal parts, etc. so the signal bounces around. So, you can't buy the receiver (hand-held wand, off the shelf). 6. All of this is doable, but the startup costs are still prohibitive. 7. We do know how to do this and have working prototypes - it is making the transition to a commercial, affordable product that is the problem. Only a few hobbiest and researchers would ever buy a system where the receiver cost several thousand dollars and each chip costs more than a queen. You need a cheap receiver, and an inexpensive miniature chip. Cheers >Hi all > >The same sort of chip that is used to identify pet dogs and cats could >surely be used on the back of a queen? > >Best Regards, Dave Cushman >G8MZY >Email: dave.cushman@lineone.net >Website...Beekeeping and Bee Breeding >http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman > > Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:37:53 -0600 Reply-To: busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob and Elizabeth Harrison Subject: Re: Electronic queen bee finder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: The same sort of chip that is used to identify pet dogs and cats could surely be used on the back of a queen? Hello Dave and all, This subject has been talked about many times over the years. If you are inventing a useful beekeeping tool invent a queen zapper. Push a button from your office and zap all your old queens and requeen from your office. Tip for finding queen: Watch for circle about the size of half dollar U.S. moving across the frame instead of trying to look at each bee. Happy beekeeping! Bob Harrison