From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:43 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDhs18767 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:43 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDeJ12702 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDeJ12702@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:38 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0102B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 221889 Lines: 4607 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:48:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Fermenting Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't speak for ragwort and rhododendron, but here (central Louisiana) most of our nectar is from privet. The honey is delicious. Walter Weller ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Fermenting Honey > I wonder whether the problem is not fermentation but honey from an > unpalatable source. Rhododendron, ragwort and privet are examples that are > said to be poor tasting but I have no direct experience. > > Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:51:27 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Sasseville Subject: Re: Spring Brood Rearing In-Reply-To: <200102072123.QAA11347@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here in Zolfo Springs Florida the maple is over and the willow is at peak. Because of the record cold January we delayed our grafting date to February 1 we usually start mid January. Brood is 3-6 frames, drones are emerging, and the bees are collecting pollen big time. Today is a high of 75f. Because of the cold weather there is no sign of the small hive beetle. Paul Sasseville Zolfo Springs, Fl/ Poland, Me __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:59:45 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Spring Brood Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > > I just came in from checking hives. The weather today was 55F. with no > wind. Very little brood and many hives with no brood yet. Very different > than the last few warm winters. We had the coldest November & December in > many years and close to a record. > I would be interested in hearing what other beekeepers are seeing in > areas they have been able to actually look into hives and look at frames > for brood. I am not interested in hearing from armchair beekeepers which > have only lifted the lid and seen bees covering 4 or 5 frames Hello All, I'm in western Washington and we have had a mild winter. I put pollen patties on 50 hives today. We will finish by the end of the week.It is still too cold to pull frames around here.It was 20F last night and almost up to 40F today. Bees are clustered tight with some showing signs of PMS. ( loose clusters with some dead bees outside of the cluster area ) Populations from 3 frames to 10 frames covered. Most are 5 to 6 frames. Last year I had 30 queens flown in off shore because I had 30 hives that were in 1 1/2 deeps at this time. So its not as good this year. Some of the situation is do to the genetics of my queens this year. More of the normal carniolan behavior in winter. We don't even have buds yet on the maples , so we have a month to go until that happens. I made 120 screened bottoms so far and will do 170 hives with the screens this year.I will run 100 Russian ( Blue line ) and do 30 carnies from Poland.Maybe I can bridge Varroa a little better without chemicals. I have some hives right now that look good without normal chemical intervention. Mint oil , and I would not recommend playing that game. It only works with certain set of conditions.The bees need to have a high hygienic behavior. So what came first, the chicken or the egg. So is it the mint and the bees clear out the paper with the mint in one day and get it all through the brood nest or are they cleaning out the mites on there own. Good question. I don't have the time to check it out. 170 hives to stay on top of and 5 farmers markets a week to do during the season. This may be a normal year for western Washington.. How spring comes in this year is the real answer for the season. If its wet , it will be slow. 1/2 sunshine and it will be great. Note: Do not pull frames in a cluster to check for brood.When they open up, go ahead on a nice day . 55F + Look for pollen coming in and that will tell you allot about what is going on in the brood nest. 32 years playing this game has a few positive points. Not as many mistakes , you already made most of them. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. 98588 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:28:54 -0500 Reply-To: Honeybees@inorbit.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: spring progress In-Reply-To: <200102070249.VAA09454@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ".......Has anyone who uses the menthol and oil towels used them in the spring? It seems maybe a waste of time with the tracheal mites life cycle. Any comments welcome. Al Boehm" Hi Al, All the books I've read have said that T-mites are at their strongest in fall and winter. Clustered bees make it easy for them to transfer to new host bees. The spring buildup of the bees will keep ahead of the T-mites. In My first second winter I lost a hive of Italians because I didn't treat, they died in mid December. Beltsville confirmed it was tracheal mite. My other three hives were Buckfast, also not treated but they survived. Mitacure (formic acid) will kill all T-mites in two days, You leave it in for 21 days though to treat varroa. Lets hope it is available again this year as I treated twenty hives with it, two treatments each at 21 day intervals. And all looked fine upon checking this past week. Hope this helps, Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:47:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Swanky Subject: Summer help I am contemplating the hiring of summer and fall help this year. Perhaps someone could reply to me offlist about the rates in Western Canada for summer students, or for labour in assisting with fall management. Thanks, Tom Swanky tswanky@goldcity.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:07:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bozard, Charles Emmett (Mick)" Subject: Buckwheat Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'd like to thank everybody for sending their responses about the ratios of colonies per acre of buckwheat, but really i have recieved a vast scale from 1 to 35 colonies per acre. this seems to be an extreme difference. Does anybody on the list produce buckwheat honey? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:47:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Mason Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dick & All, .Osmia lignaria don't like to nest in old holes in blocks. A good thing as parasites build up fast in holes reused. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri Dick wrote: The first year I had around 25 holes filled and then last year nothing... I will continue trying this year since you need to build up the population and continue to add move nest holes each year. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:08:05 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Those Russian girls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, How are things with the Russian queens. Acceptance problems? Could a = breeder on the list give a detailed list of their characteristics? How = are they compared to most stock available in the US? Thanks. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: spring progress Comments: To: Honeybees@inorbit.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Garry & All, Most us old timers know Garry meant to say *Apicure* instead of *Mitacure* but thought I would correct. Mitacure was the old *Amatraz* strip. Many of us thought beekeepers might could go back to the *Mitacure* strip when resistance to fluvalinate mites were found but in Europe varroa resistant to fluvavlinate were also resistant to Amatraz. I expect to see *Coumaphous* resistant varroa pop up this spring. Garry wrote: Mitacure (formic acid) will kill all T-mites in two days, You leave it in for 21 days though to treat varroa. Lets hope it is available again this year as I treated twenty hives with it, two treatments each at 21 day intervals. Several Bee supply houses have said they are not going to be able to sell *apicure* this spring due to packaging problems. It will be interesting to hear from others which used the *apicure* last fall and see what kind of results they got. I believe Garry was smart to treat twice at 21 intervals. The best varroa results I read were with using *Apicure* twice and twice was what BetterBee recomended in their catalog for better varroa control. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:56:31 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Buckwheat Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/01 6:34:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, BozardCE@DOT.STATE.SC.US writes: << I'd like to thank everybody for sending their responses about the ratios of colonies per acre of buckwheat, but really i have recieved a vast scale from 1 to 35 colonies per acre. this seems to be an extreme difference. Does anybody on the list produce buckwheat honey? >> That's pretty extreme. For honey production purposes, a hive per acre is probably already above the max. You are just dividing the honey amongst more hives. Personally, I'd rather go with a hive on three or four acres. If you can find someone growing the old fashioned varieties you are ahead, but the modern varieties will not yield near as much. There were honey producers in the 1940's and early '50's that easily made 200 pound surpluses from buckwheat alone. When you hear of a hive or more per acre, you are talking about pollination. The grower wants to maximize bee activity, so we jam on bees until they are a bit hungry, thus the payments for our services. When we are working for honey, we want the bees to "stuff themselves," so they make a surplus for us. Folks sometimes jump into pollination, thinking that they will do that in addition to the honey they make. If they learn to do pollination well, they learn that pollination is something you do instead of making honey with your bees. A good read, if you can find a used copy is "Bees are My Business" by Harry Whitcomb. It tells of the early discoveries in managed alfalfa pollination, and demonstrates the difference in management for pollination and for honey. I recently picked up another copy on the Internet for $8 plus shipping. (Unfortunately I discovered how easy it is to find old books on the Internet, about the same time my wife discovered E-Bay, and the credit card has been smoking.) Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:06:40 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Privet honwy (was: Re: Fermenting Honey) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/01 4:07:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, grumpy7@EMAIL.MSN.COM writes: << I can't speak for ragwort and rhododendron, but here (central Louisiana) most of our nectar is from privet. The honey is delicious. >> I concur. I never could understand why folks badmouth privet. It is dark, but it is rich and very fine. You can often identify old homesteads around here, though the buildings may be long gone, by the privet "trees" that survive and bloom profusely. I think privet is introduced -- from China, if my memory serves, but it has been around a very long time. And it is one of our finest honey sources! Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:25:33 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Spring Brood Rearing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/8/01 4:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sasseville4queens@YAHOO.COM writes: << Here in Zolfo Springs Florida the maple is over and the willow is at peak. >> The last two days of 70 degree weather have pushed things along in coastal South Carolina. Usually, strong hives keep some drones thru the winter here, but not this year. I have yet to see a drone, nor any drone brood. Strong hives are averaging one to one and a half frames of sealed brood and another frame of eggs. Weak hives may only have a portion of a frame of sealed brood. The queens have really taken off though, in the last couple days, and some of the eggs are drones. Maples still were not open, as of yesterday, though close. Yellow pollen is coming in from field mustard. <> I do think the cold suppresses the afrobeetle, but I found one hive that was badly infested. I have not treated for beetles, though I've seen spotty examples in the past couple years. They never seemed bad enough to be requiring treatment. I've only found one bad hive so far in my last round of inspection, but, if I look, there are one or two beetles in almost every hive, so I am starting treatment. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Hemingway, the barbecue capital of the world http://hemingwaysouthcarolina.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:43:57 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mason Bees in the UK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There is a new company in the UK - Oxford Bee Co. - manufacturing nest boxes for Osmia rufa for people to install for interest and study, and also for pollination of commercial crops in orchards. They have a leaflet, from which I have copied the text, omitting the illustrations. This will answer many of the questions that Bee-Liners are asking, particularly about Osmia in the UK. Matthew J Allan Pollination Pets for the Garden Sweet Bees from the Oxford Bee Company · Native UK bees enhance your garden but they need homes! Besides the honeybee, Britain has more than 250 species of native bee, all of which help your garden by pollinating flowers. But these bees are becoming scarce as modern agriculture has produced a landscape that is rarely bee-friendly these days. With fewer wild flowers and suitable nest sites, about 25 per cent of our native bees are now endangered species. The good news is that some of these bees rapidly adapt to using nest boxes placed in gardens. The Oxford Bee Company has designed bee nest boxes specifically for the Red Mason Bee - a gentle beast that is a very effective pollinator. All you need to do is place the Oxford Bee Company bee nest boxes in sunny, sheltered, south-facing position in the garden and you will attract nest-seeking females of the Red Mason Bee in early spring. No work is required - if the nest boxes are in the garden at the right time the bees will find them. · More about the Red Mason Bee (and relatives) The Red Mason Bee (Osmia rufa) is widespread in England and Wales and particularly likes the range of flowers and trees found in domestic gardens. It is a more efficient pollinator of fruit crops than the honeybee and by attracting them to your garden not only will you notice improved fruit crops - apples, plums, pears, strawberries and raspberries - but the bees also visit a wide range of garden flowers. The bees are active from late March to the beginning of June. The Red Mason Bee is not aggressive, a female will sting only if very roughly handled between the fingers and even then, it is a puny thing compared to a wasp or honeybee. Because they like similar nest sites you could be lucky and also attract the Blue Mason Bee (Osmia coerulescens) and two species of Leaf-cutter bees (Megachile spp.) when you use Oxford Bee Company nest boxes. · How do the nest boxes work? The nest tubes mimic the natural nest sites of these bees: beetle borings in dead wood and hollow plant stems. Each kit comes with a complete set of instructions, together with an outline of the life history of the Red Mason Bee. · Life history of the Red Mason Bee (Osmia rufa) The Red Mason Bee is a solitary bee. That is, each nest tube is the work of a single female working alone; unlike the honeybees and bumblebees, there is no worker caste of sterile females. The species has an annual life cycle. Males and females emerge in early spring (late March to April) and mate. Females then seek out suitable nest sites usually beetle borings in dead wood, hollow plant stems, or irregular cavities in stones and old walls. Each nest tube comprises a series of cells. The female starts her first cell at the back of the nest. She makes 10 to 15 foraging trips to collect sufficient pollen to provision each cell. The pollen is mixed with a little nectar and this acts as a food source for the single egg, which she lays immediately before sealing the cell with a mud partition. The process is repeated until the tube is filled with a row of about 6 to 10 cells. Females finish nesting in early June. Being a solitary species they will never live to see their offspring. However in the comfort of their nests, the eggs hatch into larvae, which feed on the pollen/nectar mixture. After moulting 4 or 5 times, the full grown larvae spins a tough brown silk cocoon and pupates. The new adults form in September and remain in the cocoon until the following spring when the new generation of adults emerge and the cycle begins again. Females tend to nest close to where they emerge and the design of the Oxford Bee Company nest box is such that it will attract a number of nesting females, many of whose daughters will re-use their natal nests the following season. Thus a permanent nesting population will be established in your garden. This can be enhanced by adding further nest boxes if desired. · How you can help the Oxford Bee Company (OBC) OBC exists to raise the profile of our native bees and to encourage their support and management in the environment. You can help by providing feedback on your experiences with OBC products. You can contact us on:- 01509 261654 (phone) 01509 261672 (fax) e-mail: oxbee2000@netscapeonline.co.uk Chris O'Toole Director, Bee Systematics and Biology Unit, Oxford University Museum of Natural History. Chris O'Toole has written many books on insect natural history including Bees of the World and Alien Empire. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:22:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "M.E.A. McNeil" Subject: Re: Those Russian girls In-Reply-To: <200102081314.IAA03602@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >How are things with the Russian queens. Acceptance problems? I just heard Eric Mussen (UC Davis) remark that there were three strains, one of which had serious acceptance problems. I called Taber Bee Genetics (Northern CA), and they'd had acceptance problems. They have bred the Russian with their Yugo, and had fewer problems, improved to 70% acceptance. The best results were with packages which included a Russian queen, with only one rejection last season. MEA McNeil ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Privet Honey(s)? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have noticed that this particular honey has 2 reputations...in the north it is ill-flavored and nearly inedible, routinely shunned by beekeepers as a harvetable crop. Meanwhile in the south it is a sought-after, fine delicate-flavored honey. The first time I tasted northern privet I was a believer, it was terrible (assuming the beekeeper who gave me the sample had correctly identified it)...so when I was introduced to southern privet I was skeptical, going so far as to question the accuracy of the beekeeper who gave me a taste. The question is then...are there two privets? Or, is the difference in environments to blame? Or, is somebody mislabeling one or both privet honeys? Curious minds would like to know. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine 1-800-289-7668 x3214 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:24:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Peponapis culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been looking for information on the squash bee, Peponapis, particularly information on its culture. Has anyone tried to propagate this bee? Occasionally I see high populations of this bee, but most areas here in coastal South Carolina seem to be devoid of it, probably from pesticides. What can we do to reintroduce it in barren areas? Growers, some with very large acreage, are relying on honeybees and occasional bumblebees. It would be good to supplement them. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "G.Kendall" Subject: Re: spring progress In-Reply-To: <200102070253.VAA09677@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's been wonderful to read the stories from beekeepers everywhere. I wish you all a good year. Here in western Sonoma County, about 6 miles inland from the Pacific in northern California, we just got an unseasonably warm weekend (highs in the mid 70s (F)). My bee were out in full force and different colors of pollen are coming in. I haven't checked inside yet, but it sure seems likely that there's a good amount of brood. Greg Kendall gkendall@ncal.verio.com Pilot, beekeeper, packet hacker, gentleman rancher. El rancho del gato muerto 38 24 28 N 122 58 29 W "One more time to live, and I have made it mine" John Lodge, 1971 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:02:40 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Privet Honey(s)? In-Reply-To: <200102081629.LAA09849@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 AM -0500 01/2/8, Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture wrote: >... are there two privets? In northern NZ we have two weeds, the 'oriental' or Japanese privet - with smooth-margin leaves about 3in long - and the 'European' privet with wavy-margin leaves about 1in long and tiny but abundant flowers with plently white pollen that make the whole tree look almost white. When the Euro privet is my main local pollen source, bees normally the soul of gentleness become very keen to sting. This pollen may well be fully nutritious to bee larvae - I'm not aware of any studies on it - but it sure provokes workers into a bad temper. Ecologists have been pressing for a couple decades to have them both declared noxious weeds as they are serious invaders of many habitats and have little to recommend them. I've not heard of any beekeepers who particularly value them; and if any do, I'd urge them to give way to wider ecological considerations. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:27:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Moye Subject: My Russian Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I started 2 hives with Russian queens last April. They came from Calvert Apiaries in Alabama (USA). Both queens were quickly accepted and the bees set in quickly to build comb and start working. One queen became a drone layer and I did not discover this for about 5 or 6 wees. Calvert gladly replaced her without charge. This hive was slower to get going due to this problem. The best hive drew out 5 full medium supers of comb (brood and honey = mediums) and I took a super of honey from that hive last fall. The other drew out 4 full medium supers of comb, but I did not feel comfortable robbing the weaker hive. Side by side with Italians, I found varroa in drone brood several times last fall in the Italians, but not in the Russians. No other sampling method was used other than subjective spot checking of drone brood. I also did not treat the hives for mites. All hives have full open mesh floors (i.e. the bottom board consists of wood sides and screen mesh bottom, but no board). The Italians were requeened with Starline Queens last September due to the Italians habit flying around everyone's head. I could not find Russian queens last fall and needed to get away from Italian. My Russians are gentle and can be worked easily. They do not fly nearly as much in cold weather (low 50's F) as the Italian/Starline, and they completely stopped laying here in eastern NC in December/January. I checked them today, 2/8/01, and both Russians and Italian/Starlines have a good brood pattern, plenty of brood, honey, pollen, and bees. They are bringing in pollen today aggressively. In fact, they have stored quite a bit since I checked them 1 month ago. In short, I have been very satisfied with them. I do not yet know how they will compare with Italians from a honey production perspective, but that is not as important to me as it is for them to live without mite treatment. I am sure that I will buy some Russian Queens for my splits this spring. In fact, I will probably go 100% Russian. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:35:34 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peacey Subject: Re: Request for help Fixing leaking wooden frame feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A bit late in replying, but we find soft micro wax works really well in sealing wooden frame feeders and any other type of feeders. Talk to your petroleum companies and ask for their softest wax. Heat it up, pour it in and swish it from end to end of the feeder until any leaks are plugged up. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:08:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: My Russian Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Steve & All, Glad to hear you had good results. Really! I do have one question. Could you put a sticky board in for 24 hours and tell me by direct email the number of natural fall mites you find? The figure would really help me make up my mind about the Russian queens. Also if you find any varroa with body parts missing on the sticky board. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:13:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Request for help Fixing leaking wooden frame feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, A bit late in replying, but we find soft micro wax works really well in sealing wooden frame feeders and any other type of feeders. Talk to your petroleum companies and ask for their softest wax. Heat it up, pour it in and swish it from end to end of the feeder until any leaks are plugged up. I have tried the wax several times but the wax always separates from the wood later. I have been told to take a propane torch and heat the wood first and then the wax will stick. Have you ever had a problem with the wax lifting later? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:42:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bozard, Charles Emmett (Mick)" Subject: Re: Buckwheat Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks Dave ! that's a good explanation. Now anybody got any OL TIME SEED ? i have been planting nothing but the current seed stock from the seed companies. thanks again -----Original Message----- From: David L. Green [mailto:Pollinator@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:57 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Buckwheat Honey In a message dated 2/8/01 6:34:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, BozardCE@DOT.STATE.SC.US writes: << I'd like to thank everybody for sending their responses about the ratios of colonies per acre of buckwheat, but really i have recieved a vast scale from 1 to 35 colonies per acre. this seems to be an extreme difference. Does anybody on the list produce buckwheat honey? >> That's pretty extreme. For honey production purposes, a hive per acre is probably already above the max. You are just dividing the honey amongst more hives. Personally, I'd rather go with a hive on three or four acres. If you can find someone growing the old fashioned varieties you are ahead, but the modern varieties will not yield near as much. There were honey producers in the 1940's and early '50's that easily made 200 pound surpluses from buckwheat alone. When you hear of a hive or more per acre, you are talking about pollination. The grower wants to maximize bee activity, so we jam on bees until they are a bit hungry, thus the payments for our services. When we are working for honey, we want the bees to "stuff themselves," so they make a surplus for us. Folks sometimes jump into pollination, thinking that they will do that in addition to the honey they make. If they learn to do pollination well, they learn that pollination is something you do instead of making honey with your bees. A good read, if you can find a used copy is "Bees are My Business" by Harry Whitcomb. It tells of the early discoveries in managed alfalfa pollination, and demonstrates the difference in management for pollination and for honey. I recently picked up another copy on the Internet for $8 plus shipping. (Unfortunately I discovered how easy it is to find old books on the Internet, about the same time my wife discovered E-Bay, and the credit card has been smoking.) Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:46:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wajih daour Subject: Devide the hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Sir, We have a very heavy and short honey flow ,22 March to 10 April, from = citrus trees in Jordan Valley ,200Mtr. below see level. We have swarms during and little before this period. Can we split the hives just when the honey flow starts into two by = taking the queen of the hive with the open brood and young bees few = meters aside and leave the adult bees with the closed brood and one open = brood frame with the origional queenless hive to collect honey. Are we going to have more honey and additional hive or we are going to = loose both?! Thanks Wajih Daour ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Devide the hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Can we split the hives just when the honey flow starts into two .... A better plan might be a shook swarm. Place an empty shallow super with foundation on the original hive stand, with queen excluder and honey supers. Move the original hive to a different location in the same yard, locate the queen in the original hive, place her in the foundation super on the original stand and shake 2/3 to 3/4 of the bees into the foundation super on the original stand. Be sure to leave enough bees in the original hive to care for the brood that remains with the original hive. Your hive has now swarmed to its original location. The bees will quickly draw the foundation and commencing raising brood and fill your honey supers. Your original hive (now queenless) will commence raising a new queen. You may let them raise their own (chances are thery're already in the process anyway - you probably already have swarm cells) OR you can cut out swarm cells (if any) and introduce a new queen of known lineage. At the tail end of the flow you can put everything back together by moving the original hive back to original location, dispatch the original queen in the now-drawn foundation super, which is placed atop of a queen excluder on the original hive. As the brood hatches out the bees will fill it with honey. Your hive has swarmed, your original hive now has a new queen, you have kept your harvest, and your bees have all stayed where you wanted them. These are condensed instructions. Read about shook swarming in a good test. This method works very well in my location (upstate New York). I don't know if this is a good method in Jordan. Aaron Morris ==- thinking there's more than 1 way to keep a bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:50:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Devide the hive in the honey flow period Comments: cc: honey@index.com.jo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/01 8:55:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, honey@INDEX.COM.JO writes: << Can we split the hives just when the honey flow starts into two by = taking the queen of the hive with the open brood and young bees few = meters aside and leave the adult bees with the closed brood and one open = brood frame with the origional queenless hive to collect honey.>> It's nice to see you on the bee list, Wajih. You live in a beautiful place. Our pastor went over to visit and brought back a lot of pictures. He wanted to be baptized in the Jordan. He thought it was a big river, but when he was there, it was a dry spell, and it was just a muddy trickle. He said he was grateful that he was a Methodist and not a Baptist. Didn't need near as much water.... :o) I hope I can get to visit someday. Maybe I could visit you? One thing I've always wondered about. Couldn't there be an earthquake that would open up a crack from the Gulf and flood the valley? Just wondering....they've always said that some day California would crack loose in a quake, and slide into the Pacific, too. There is an easy way to split hives. I take the original hive, place it behind the original location, and turn it around. Most of the field bees will drift back to the original site, but the younger bees will stay at the new location. Then I set up a nuc at the old site, with new foundation (they'll have plenty of nectar to draw wax, as they have kept the field force) and you will put about three frames of mostly sealed brood in this, so they can make wax and raise a queen. I also give them a frame of honey. I prefer the queen to stay with the old hive. They will lose their field force, which is usually enough to prevent swarming. This hive should still make some honey, if you start it early in the flow, or before the flow. The new hive should be given a queen, a queen cell, or make sure they have eggs from which to develop one. It's not a real serious problem if you can't find the queen, or don't have time to look. Simply make sure both hives have eggs, or give them both a queen cell. If your flow is brief, and the rest of the summer is pretty barren (it's like that here in South Carolina), you may need to feed the nuc later, to get them through the heat of summer. <> You will lose some honey, but by controlling the process, you won't lose as much as you would have if they swarmed. I think also, if you have some pollen, you can lose less honey, if you do this ahead of the honeyflow, and give them sugar syrup to get the splits going. I don't know about your season or your pollen sources, so that is just a thought to consider. I start splitting as early as I dare. I don't want a spring storm, and I have to make sure there are plenty of drones for queen mating. When I see queen cells in the hives, I know it's time. This is sometimes as early as March 15. The earliest splits will be the best ones for that season. Do you do crop pollination service, Wajih? I would think you are in an ideal place to do it. You can get a free listing at the pollination page below. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:14:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Buckwheat Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 2/9/01 3:15:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, BozardCE@DOT.STATE.SC.US writes: << Thanks Dave ! that's a good explanation. Now anybody got any OL TIME SEED ? i have been planting nothing but the current seed stock from the seed companies. thanks again >> Try Burkett Mills in Penn Yan, NY. You want the old black-hulled varieties, not the silver-hulled hybrids. I don't know if they are still available. Burketts would know. Dr. THOMAS BJÖRKMAN at Cornell might also know. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:40:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Used Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several have asked how I found "Bees are My Business." To tell you the truth, I can't remember. I do remember there were about a dozen copies available and the one I picked was not only the cheapest, but also the closest. Apparently some folks haven't found how easy it is to find things on the Internet. With a little experience you'll find that it's a more wonderful tool than you ever knew before. Start with a good search engine like google.com The search term "used books" is a good start. You could also try beekeeping books. (You can also check out amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, and ebay.com, which have used books.) Remember the broad search engines don't catalog more than a tiny fraction of what is available. The search engine should reveal a number of search services. Many of the used book stores now have cataloged their wares and submitted them to a search service. When you find these, you'll find a treasure trove of things that it could have taken years of searching to find. A little book nook on the opposite coast is now available to you to find what you want. It has given the little stores a chance to compete with the big guys. The same principle can be used in many other fields as well. Use the general search engines like Google to discover more specific search engines, like the one at your state extension site or university. It's easy to get an e-mail address for anyone at any university, because they have searchable directories. There are thousands of search engines out there. When you want a piece of info, the first search is to find the search engines that catalog the field in which you hope to find your data. The pollination page has gotten so huge that I can't even keep up with what's there myself. There's close to 50 megs on it. Many of the things that are there should be cross referenced in several ways, which I haven't time to do. So I put a search engine right on it, nicely (and freely) provided by google. Now you can look within the page for anything that interests you. I've also found a newer, better translation engine that pretty well covers western European languages, which most of the world speaks at least one of. Now I'm looking for one that translates Russian, Chinese, Japanese and Swahili. Ain't it wonderful? Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:17:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: Pink Pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings! Pink Pages are updated. http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/contentpages/articles.html Herb/Norma Bee Holly-B Apiary PO Box 26 Wells,Maine 04090-0026 "an educated consumer is YOUR best customer" The Beekeeper's Home on the Internet http://www.mainebee.com Stony Critters http://www.stonycritters.com Betty's Driftwood Santa Site http://pages.ivillage.com/santasite/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:54:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Imidacloprid in France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010206/l06140619.html http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010205/l05128351.html allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:20:43 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Subject: Re: Used Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello: You may wish to try www.abebooks.com . They describe themselves as the "world's largest network of independent booksellers". Keith ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:24:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: Re: Devide the hive in the honey flow period In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, If you can divide the colony in the manner you suggest before the honey flow you should have 2 colonies that produce honey, and you can either requeen the queenless half, or let them raise their own queen when they can...as long as there are eggs in the queenless half. Dividing before the flow will reduce congestion, reduce swarming and allow both colonies to readjust before the main flow, so they are as ready as possible to collect nectar, and have a place to put it. Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine 1-800-289-7668 x3214 623 W. Liberty St. Medina OH 44256 http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of wajih daour Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 8:47 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Devide the hive in the honey flow period Dear Sir, We have a very heavy and short honey flow ,22 March to 10 April, from = citrus trees in Jordan Valley ,200Mtr. below see level. We have swarms during and little before this period. Can we split the hives just when the honey flow starts into two by = taking the queen of the hive with the open brood and young bees few = meters aside and leave the adult bees with the closed brood and one open = brood frame with the origional queenless hive to collect honey. Are we going to have more honey and additional hive or we are going to = loose both?! Thanks Wajih Daour ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:49:22 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "M.E.A. McNeil" Subject: Re: Used Bee Books In-Reply-To: <200102091825.NAA22600@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ain't it wonderful? > > >Dave Green >The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com It surely is, and thanks for your direction. FYI, source of old bee books: jbray@pcnet.com (old address, if not good, search Joseph Bray. Mea McNeil MEA McNeil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:06:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Re: Imidacloprid in France, Press Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A Press Conference is to be held at by "The Coordination des Apiculteurs of France" "The Sénat" (Upper House of Parliament) Paris on Monday 12th. Feb. at 11.00am. Beekeepers intend to bring into the open the following: The "non decision" taken by the French Minister of Agriculture concerning seeds coated with Gaucho and Régent TS. The unacceptable immobile position of the Minister, after results from 9.8MF of studies and analysis undertaken by public laboratories (AFSSA, CNRS, INRA) which with an honest interpretation leaves no doubt concerning the toxicity of the active ingredients contained in the two above products. How cheating by the French administration has occurred (from which the beekeepers have suffered far too long) and how European Environmental law has been sidetracked by France. A dossier will be presented showing the total absence of political courage when facing agrochemical firms, to the detriment of the Beekeeping Industry, protection of the environment and therefore human health. This decision is where "The Principle of Precaution" is being used to protect the position of Government and the Agro-Chemical Firms. The Principle of full and open interpretation of Independent Scientific Research is being challenged by this decision. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:11:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid in France MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & all, I know Allen has made up his mind that Imidacloprid is the problem in France. I honestly don't know but I have read the two articles posted and they certainly seem to invite more questions than answers. The French beekeepers claim .45 million dead hives. I am sure those are real figures. The French beekeepers believe that Bayer and Imidacloprid is at fault but so far cannot prove their case but have caused enough concern for the government to stop the sales and take a look> However a quote from the article: "The decision might be reversed if fresh compelling evidence emerged,it added" So the victory for the beekeepers could be temperary. Bayer's side of the story seems sound also. They say the product is sold in 70 countries and the only problem has been in France. Is this true? Bayer seems to be interested in finding if Imidacloprid is indeed the cause of the dead hives. With those kind of losses it seems the problem wouldn't be hard to locate. Quote from article: Bayer says scientists must look at other causes for the bee population decline and points out the problem has affected beekeepers across the country,INCLUDING many in regions where Gaucho is not used. Is this true? If Gaucho is found to be the cause then all the worlds beekeepers owe the French beekeepers a debt of gratitude. If Gaucho is not the problem then whats going on with the French beehives? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:46:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Used Bee Books In-Reply-To: <200102092227.RAA01765@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > FYI, source of old bee books: jbray@pcnet.com (old address, if not good, > search Joseph Bray. Mea McNeil http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/antqbooks.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:05:12 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) In-Reply-To: <200102092229.RAA01821@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:24 AM -0500 01/2/9, Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture wrote: . . . let them raise their own queen when they can ... as long as there are eggs in the queenless half. I am glad to see such an authority mentioning with apparent approval this method of getting a new queen. Some important textbooks don't even mention this old method, and its traditional name could be taken to imply inferiority. I mean no offence to those who sell queens resulting from mass production by 'grafting' eggs of human choice, but I would like to see discussion of the relative merits. Why should we think the bees are less skillful than we are in choosing the best egg to make a new queen? Indeed, how much choice is involved in 'grafting'? Is there any theoretical reason to think we can do as well as the bees? Is a queen freighted from a remote region likely to be as good as one bred in the local habitat? For a decade I had good success with this method: 1 Remove roof; substitute ceiling by one with a few sq in of gauze taped near the middle (on the vague notion that the scents of that hive will comfort the split). 2 Put on this a nuc box of 4 frames lifted from the brood box below containing many eggs, some honey, and preferably some stored pollen - and NOT the queen. 3 Replace roof :=) 3 After the new queen has settled down to laying, move these 4 frames into the middle of a full box with foundation both sides and put this new hive on a baseboard. 4 Move the new hive where you want. In my temperate climate at least, it is also possible to use for the split a whole 9- or 10-frame box from the start, with the 4-frame split flanked by foundation frames each side, i.e. skip the nuc-box phase. I tend to face the split's entry in the same direction as the parent hive, but cannot say whether this is best. After a couple generations of this non-commercial breeding, my bees achieved net storage over winter, which is I believe unrecorded. These same champion workers I would normally rob of a frame or two wearing no gear at all. Such a temperament of hard working with placid behaviour must constitute some evidence for merit in this breeding method. Let's hear other evidence. I trust the US experts will let us have full criticism of the Pauper's Split, and can only hope they will stick to the point while doing so. This time we know some of them have a commercial interest in the issue I am raising, whereas previously we could only speculate who might have held stock in Dow, de Nemours, Monsanto, or other GM corporation. How to get new queens is a very important issue, deserving Informed Discussion; important enough to deserve declarations of interest, don't you agree? It may be a minor matter, but let's get it right. Also of course the queen-factory operators are more informed than us paupers, so their mentioning commercial interest will establish them as experts in a sense that us paupers can't. This is a further reason why commercial interests should be mentioned. What think ye of the Pauper's Split? R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > What think ye of the Pauper's Split? We covered this in great detail a couple of years ago or maybe it was even more than that. Anyway, it is in the archives and the method you describe is similar to that I and many others practice. It is mostly a hobby beekeeper practice, since you have a long queenless, eggless and beeless stage. Commercial beekeepers cannot afford that for either honey production and especially pollination. The hive is effectively out of operation for well over a month and the practice is much more labor intensive than popping in a new queen. The basic argument was in the quality of the queen produced. After a lot of discussion, there seemed to be some agreement that if the hive was in a strong, spring/early summer honey flow and was robust, you got good queens so the method was probably alright. Later in the year was questionable. So if you are a commercial pollinator and tried this, it would be right in the middle of pollination season so you could not do it. And if you try it later, you might get inferior queens. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:14:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: Mason Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From what I have read: If you are using a wood block for Orchard Mason Bees, the holes should be 5/16" in diameter, 3/4" on center from each other, and 6" deep. The depth is important since only at this depth will you be providing enough room for a proper male/female ratio. A fertile female (there are no "queens" with these solitary bees) will lay females first in the depth of the hole followed by males. If the hole is less than 6" in depth she lays a higher proportion of males than females or no females at all. Therefore, upon emergence the following February/March, there may not be enough of both sexes to mate and repeat the cycle. I have also read that you can clean out the previous years holes with your drill bit but replacing an old block with a new one yearly is prefered. Molds, mites and other undesirables can take a footing in old habitat. ----- Original Message ----- From: "john f. mesinger" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 6:24 AM Subject: Re: Mason Bees > I got a 6in block of 4X4in wood with a square pattern of many > holes drilled 2+in deep and a chicken wire anti bird screen over the face > several inches out fromm a class project in a rural HS in SW VA two years > ago; put it on a 4 ft post, it was filled and plugged with mud by Mason > beed queen or queens. They hatched. I cleaned the holes last winter and > there were no repeats last year. > > John F. Mesinger > jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:11:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Lewis Subject: Re: The pauper's split MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Robert that humans may not necessarily make a better = choice of selecting specific eggs for raising queens than the bees = themselves do - I really don't know though. I do not, however, believe = that letting a split raise their own queen is the best option for = queening if you want to improve your stock. IMO, if you want to improve = the quality of your stock, it is better to split your hives by whatever = method you prefer, and then introduce a cell from a hive that you have = selected from your own operation that has whatever characteristics you = want to propagate: gentle temperament, mite tolerance, high production = etc. Your splits will have a queen sooner (you're introducing a cell), = and you probably will end up with a better queen. When raising your own queens, I believe that it is imperative to = introduce new stock to maintain genetic diversity and prevent = inbreeding. Also, if someone is developing a strain with characteristics = that you want, why "re-invent the wheel"? Bring in a few new hives or = queens and evaluate them for a season to see if they meet your breeder = criteria and are adapted to the local habitat. In our operation, I don't = necessarily want every split that I make to have a queen from whatever = stock the split came from. I want all the splits I make to be headed by = queens from stock that I deem to be the best suited to our operation. If = you can add into this a closed mating yard, you will have that much = greater chance of improving the characteristics of your hives.=20 If the actual point of the original post was that it is better to = allow the bees to select the egg for queen rearing themselves, grafting = several cells at once and introducing them into a queenless hives allows = for selection by the bees. Mike Lewis=20 Austin Manitoba, Canada where it is -27 celcius right now! =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:10:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) In-Reply-To: <200102100451.XAA08856@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > . . . let them raise their own queen when they can ... as long as > > there are eggs in the queenless half. > I am glad to see such an authority mentioning with apparent > approval this method of getting a new queen. Some important > textbooks don't even mention this old method, and its traditional > name could be taken to imply inferiority. > ...etc. This topic has been a subject of intense interest and extended debate here in the past. I am not sure the matter has been resolved entirely -- or that it will ever be. A search at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ using 'emergency cells' or 'emergency queen' as keys should return a large amount of reading -- and perhaps form a basis for some new comments. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:08:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: making early nucs up in Midwest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, My method of early spring nucs in the weather of the Midwest. My system is based on the bees brood rearing cycle. Egg for three days larva for 5 to 5 1/2 days capped at 8 to 8 1/2 days Now you have a capped over cell from which the bee emerges 21 days from the day the egg was laid. If you subtract the eight days of egg and open larva stage you have a thirteen day period of which it is capped. On the 13th day if you open the cap you will find a glistening white pupa " " 14th " " " " " " " " " the eyes show a pale red " " 15th " " " " " " " " " " " " red " " 17th " " " " " " " " " " " " purple and the thorax has turned yellow On the 18th day the abdomen turns yellow On the 19th day the antenna darken On the 21 st day the wings extend and emergence is due. The point of me putting all this in print is there are allways some nice days before your queens arrive(but not usually when you are installing queens right). Go into the hives you are going to make up nucs from and choose the frames for your nucs a couple weeks before the queens arrive. Mark the frames. I use colored tacks pushed in the frame. Then when you later are pressed for time simply choose the frames you picked at the earlier time (less old queen) and make up your nucs. My friends always say I spend way to much time working my bees but can't argue with my success. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:19:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello R & All, Beekeepers buy queens for many reasons. New lines(Russian,Yugo or hygenic lines). Beekeepers in the Midwest(U.S.A.) buy queens most of the time because they need queens at a time they can't raise their own queens because of lack of mature drones for the queens to mate with. In your part of the world and in your climate maybe you can raise queens year around. In the Midwest (U.S.A.)we can only start to raise queens when the bees have started to raise drones. In other words for early queens you are forced to buy queens or overwinter fall queens. My first queens are coming the last of March. Impossible for me to produce my own queens at that time. The first date I can get my own queens mated and ready to go is at best a full month later. Many beekeepers do raise their own by the methods described and split then but for two queen and reckons you really need early queens. However that's only my opinion and the way I keep bees but for me my system works best. For those new beekeepers I will try to answer the below questions. Robert wrote: Why should we think the bees are less skillful than we are in choosing the best egg to make a new queen? Most commercial queen breeders choose exactly the right age larva to graft. Bees will (at times) use a larvae of older age which will (at times) make a less than perfect queen but of course not always. Indeed, how much choice is involved in 'grafting'? Most queen grafters choose the right age eggs but in my opinion the new queen systems(Jenter) can make the procedure even more exact. Is there any theoretical reason to think we can do as well as the bees? I believe researchers have shown queen breeders can do as well. I like you have raised many excellent queens myself but also a few less than desirable ones. Plus many queen breeders try to control the drones their queens mate with by using remote yards. Not a fool proof system but better than using all the drones in the apiary and risk a mating with a drone from your worst hive. Is a queen freighted from a remote region likely to be as good as one bred in the local habitat? You have a good point here and shipping problems do occur. With early queens one doesn't have a choice. I get mine in a battery box(not car battery). They all come without attendents in a box of at least 50 with about 2-3 pounds of bees to cover. I also drive and pick up at the postoffice. My queen breeder is dependable and I know when they are comming and they arrive when they are suppose to or she calls to tell me. For a decade I had good success with this method: I always stick with whatever works best. If I lived in your part of the world I probabbly would do like you also. There are many many ways to get the bees to raise their own queens but none I have found to raise early queens without drones. I did a post early last year to see if any of the worlds beekeepers had a way to force the bees to raise early drones. None did. The post got many replies but ended up without a solution other than raising queens the year before and overwintering. I see nothing wrong with either method put forth by you or Kim but buying queens does have its merits if you live in a northern climate and want early queens. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:54:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Imidacloprid in France In-Reply-To: <200102092357.SAA03765@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I know Allen has made up his mind that Imidacloprid is the problem > in France. Not true at all. I have no experience in the matter and have no opinion. I have, however, decided that anything that seems to create such unanimity in French beekeepers deserves our attention and respect and tried to make this info accessible at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Imidacloprid for English-speaking beekeepers. > Bayer's side of the story seems sound also. They say the product > is sold in 70 countries and the only problem has been in France. Look beyond the pretty words to the research and Bayer's 'proof'. I do not find it to be very thorough -- or convincing. Moreover, there does not actually seem to have been very much study done. In what was done, the detection methods are outdated and the assumptions made in setting up their studies seem to me to be pretty shaky too -- IMO. On their web page, they make a lot of noise about a fairly small number of studies. If anyone knows differently, I would sure like a list of the studies and further details. By pointing out the deficiencies in their proof, I am not saying that Bayer is necessarily wrong. What I am saying is that Bayer has not -- IMO -- done a thorough and independent enough study to PROVE their conclusions. Whatever the truth is, it will continue to be the truth no matter how good or poor the arguments of advocates for and against. > .. and points out the problem has affected beekeepers across the > country,INCLUDING many in regions where Gaucho is not used. Is > this true? I don't know if this is true -- and I don't know if anyone knows, since imidacloprid is becoming widely used and the use is not reportable. Apparently some of the experiments in France (offered as 'proof') used -- accidentally or not -- land on which imidacloprid had previously been applied as an experimental control. The researchers were thus comparing imidacloprid treated soil to imidacloprid treated soil instead of to untreated soil. Such basic errors make a study useless, yet I believe this research is still cited as 'proof'. > If Gaucho is found to be the cause then all the worlds beekeepers owe > the French beekeepers a debt of gratitude. If Gaucho is not the problem > then whats going on with the French beehives? Dunno, bob. I am merely your faithful scribe, writing what I hear -- and trying not to add too much to it. My Gaucho site is at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Imidacloprid allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:12:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: The pauper's split MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/9/01 8:50:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, robt_m@TALK.CO.NZ writes: << Such a temperament of hard working with placid behaviour must constitute some evidence for merit in this breeding method. Let's hear other evidence.>> Letting the hives raise queens from the eggs is not at all uncommon, Robert. But each situation has to be analyzed according to the situation at hand. A friend of mine, back in the days when the woods were full of wild bees, raised thousands of nucs that way, here in South Carolina, selling many of them to other beekeepers up north. The problem with this method was that the wild bees were mostly descendants of the old German bee that the pioneer beekeepers kept. He wound up with hives that gradually got meaner and meaner, as they repeatedly crossed with this temperamental bee. He began to get a reputation for mean bees, and this began to hurt his nuc sales. Eventually he had to make his nucs with commercial queens. Today, he probably could return to this method, as the wild bees have been pretty well cleaned out by mites and clear-cut logging. It would be possible to better control the drone population around the queen mating sites. << I trust the US experts will let us have full criticism of the Pauper's Split, >> (some snorting and blowing deleted) Robert, I think the discussion will go better, if you don't come to the table with a chip on your shoulder. <> It probably will get more common, as more of us become paupers. ;o) Actually, it is not uncommon now. I have raised a lot of queens from eggs. I prefer to use swarm cells over eggs, as much as I can. As others have mentioned, there is a long wait when you start from the egg. I used to graft and select a lot more than I have in recent years. Some folks have claimed that using swarm cells will propagate the swarming urge, but I think the advantages outweigh the faults. Swarm cells are always well fed, and I suppose well selected by the bees. I have seen enough weak and sickly bees, that, when I have bees that want to swarm, that is the kind of strong stock I want. I do make an effort to keep bees with a nasty temperament or bees that are prone to illness from raising drones. Otherwise a lot of the selection is just simply from raising bees only from good stock. Bees are weak or nasty get queen cells from better hives. I try to buy a few queens from an excellent breeder each year to keep some new blood coming into the operation. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:15:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Mason Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, As a raiser of of Osmia Lignaria(Orchard Mason Bee) I agree with everything John has said. I however use reeds instead of the blocks so I can check each reed over the winter for disease,number of live bees and the sex. I also do not reuse the reeds. The reeds split easy in half so you can inspect the bees. I then tape the reed back together and mark the number of males and females on the side. The reeds are the method of choice for the USDA from which I got my first bees. I thought of trying to make blocks with the 6 inch holes but they have been slow to make because of the 6 inch depth hole. My drill press doesn't have a depth of 6 inches although I do have a longer than 6 inch 5 /16 drill bit. I have to move the bottom plate up each time because the hole isn't supposed to be drilled all the way through the block. Then the hole doesn't clean the wood out good because you can only lift the drill up about 3 1/2 inches. Is there a easy way to drill the 6 inch hole without standing over the block with a drill? I made some cute birdhouse looking nest blocks playing around in the shop last winter but got bored with drilling all those holes and moving the plate on the drill press for each hole. About 25 of those are out in the shop waiting for holes to be drilled. Fortunately they are not high on my priority list as I grew tired of fighting the 6 inch holes. I believe thats why all blocks I see for sale are 3 1/2 inch in depth. I believe the reeds work better but are not as cute in a yard/ garden setting. These solitary bees are for the many calls I get each year from people wanting one hive of bees brought to their 10 by 20 garden for polination and then REMOVED as soon as the garden is polinated. If any Bee-L beekeepers live in the Kansas City area and are willing to provide the service please contact me so I can give them your number. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:30:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/10/01 4:35:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << There are many many ways to get the bees to raise their own queens but none I have found to raise early queens without drones. I did a post early last year to see if any of the worlds beekeepers had a way to force the bees to raise early drones. None did. >> One of the advantages of southern US beekeepers is that we usually have drones very early; here in SC we usually have drones all winter. But this year there are NO drones whatsoever. It's been one of the coldest winters on record, and drones were cleaned out of ALL hives quite a while ago. Just yesterday, I saw the first capped drone brood, so things are coming on now. I have made splits here in SC during the first week in March. I never made more than I felt I could risk, that early. One year I had some beautiful nucs that really went on to be "busters." Other years I've lost quite a few of the early ones, with some not getting mated, others mating poorly. I'd like to push the season sometimes, but have pretty much come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. When I start seeing the first swarm cells, the bees are ready; the drones plentiful, and it's time to start splitting. Around here, that is usually the last week in March. Heavy syrup feeding can push the season by a week or two, but beyond that, you risk a storm during the breeding time, and the nucs have to be re-celled or re-combined. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Mason Bees In-Reply-To: <200102101401.JAA24446@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I thought of trying to make blocks with the 6 inch holes but they have been > slow to make because of the 6 inch depth hole. Leafcutter beekeepers use a Styrofoam system. It consists of a stack of flat, thin styro pieces grooved on top and bottom. When stacked and bound together, the grooves form round holes. At the end of the season, the stacks are taken a part and the cocoons rubbed gently out of the grooves into bulk bins. The cocoons are stored over winter at controlled temperature, then fumigated against pests and incubated. When ready to hatch, trays of cocoons are placed in shelters near a nest block. Three pictures of such a shelter with all the apparatus inside and some discussion can be seen at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/Diary071700.htm near the bottom of the page, or a direct link to just one of the pictures is http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/images/SummerDivides/PIC00029.JPG The black and white patterns on the assembled blocks are for orientation purposes. Maybe a similar system would work for these bees? If not, maybe using 3/4" or 1/2" boards grooved top and bottom on a router and bound together with tape or through bolts would work? |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| |---O---O---O---O---O---| allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael W Stoops Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit If I remember my biology correctly producing vinegar is the same process as fermenting alcohol, it is just done in an aerobic environment (with air present) instead of an anaerobic environment (without air present). If your fermented honey tastes bad, it seems there is no other use for it, at least from the responses I've seen on the list so far, so you might want to try something new and see if you can make honey vinegar with it. Just a suggestion. Mike Stoops Half way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama, USA >> Could one of you master mead-makers tell me how wise it is to >> use fermented honey to make mead? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:25:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: Used Bee Books - where can you value? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Abebooks.com, Bibliofind.com, Alibris.com - all GREAT search engines on hard-to-find bee books. Alibris and Abebooks are easy to use and usually come up with a wide selection of bee books. I found an old copy of C.C. Miller's "Fifty Years Among the Bees" on Stahlman apiaries website. Anyone else have a site with a bunch of used bee-books? My question is, where is a good source to value old bee books? Pre-1850's books can be found $200-$500 but what is a good price to pay? I've purchased several Maurice Maeterlinck books - first editions(1901) for $5-$10 on ebay, only to find them listed on Abebooks or Bibliofind for $200-$300! I know they're not worth more than what I paid but some of these booksellers certainly price 'differently'. Anyone have a copy of T.B. Miner's "The American Bee Keeper's Manual" (1849-1851)? Or other old bee-book(s) with significance they want to sell to the next generation of beekeepers? Matthew Westall -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:20:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael W Stoops Subject: Re: Mason Bees Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Bob & Liz >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: Mason Bees >Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001, 8:15 > > Is there a easy way to drill the 6 inch hole without standing over the block > with a drill? Drill out a block that is only 6 inches long then glue a solid block onto the bottom. Hole cleans itself out and the hole is 6 inches long (block length). Mike Stoops Half way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 10:34:15 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey In-Reply-To: <200102101746.MAA28668@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael W Stoops wrote: >If I remember my biology correctly producing vinegar is the same process as >fermenting alcohol, it is just done in an aerobic environment (with air >present) >instead of an anaerobic environment (without air present). Both can proceed (as they do on the surface of damaged fruit all around the world) aerobically. Conversion of sugars to the particular alcohol (ethanol) that has proven so problematic thru history is performed by yeasts - single-cell fungi - and the resulting ethanol can be oxidised to acetic acid, the main compound characteristic of vinegar, if the bacterium _Acetobacter_ is present, e.g. brought in on the feet of fruit-flies. The key to success in stopping the oxidation at the alcohol, preventing its going thru to the acid, is a reasonably pure yeast culture. (It doesn't have to be utterly pure because a dense yeast culture exerts a quasi-monopoly, quelling growth of minor contaminants.) Therefore it's a great help in making booze to prepare over a couple days an uncontaminated vigorous yeast culture in a small vessel which you can then pour in to the fruit juice, honey solution, etc when it's ready to brew. This starter culture benefits from a little lemon juice, and a tad of tea. R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:55:05 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: The pauper's split (was: Devide the hive in the honey flow period) In-Reply-To: <200102100451.XAA08856@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200102100451.XAA08856@listserv.albany.edu>, Robert Mann writes > What think ye of the Pauper's Split? A variation I have tried is designed to give the cell builder a full force of flying bees as well as the young bees needed to feed the new queen cells. Using all the stages Robert gave, turn the lower box to face the rear and keep the top box entrance facing to the front. Once the cells have their feed reverse so the flying bees go back to mum leaving the top box to carry on the good work of taking cells to completion. A check on cells after 3 or even 4 days will let you cull any sealed cells started on older larvae. Cells can be cut out and given to nucs or, if more than one frame has been selected to grow cells, whole frames moved for simplicity to nucs for mating. (If there are enough bees they can also be split further). Or the top box can be left to select its own new queen who mates from the rear of the top - *less* confusion about entrances. The system has also been recommended for swarm control, once they have started cells, especially if they are within 2 days of sealing them or perhaps have even sealed them, as the old queen loses her flying bees for as long as you think will lose them the swarming instinct. The only problem we have with our National hives here is that half the vertical surfaces are flat, the other half have two planes to accommodate the long lugs. So the bees crawl up the hive and have to negotiate like experienced mountaineers doing overhangs. It slows them down a bit, especially if there are 2 or 3 supers on. I have tried that with some success and aim to use it when they are too close to swarming to let them stay in with the old queen even if she is left with only one frame of brood and one of stores and the rest made up with foundation. They sometimes go after 3 frames are laid up. The mesh division board helps to ensure the top box is warm enough in case a beginner leaves insufficient bees initially to keep it warm, though that will cut down the queen rearing potential, perhaps even drastically. So the split should have sufficient bees young or old, though many books recommend a foraging force for cell builders to bring in fresh pollen as well as good pollen stocks next to the frames with worker and queen larvae. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:13:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "George J. Biles (South-eastern PA, USA)" Subject: Re: Used Bee Books Hello Everybody, I've had good luck with bibliofind.com; also try alibris.com Georg Biles (South-eastern PA, USA) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:49:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert & All, Robert wrote: Conversion of sugars to the particular alcohol (ethanol) that has proven so problematic thru history is performed by yeasts - single-cell fungi - and the resulting ethanol can be oxidised to acetic acid, the main compound characteristic of vinegar, if the bacterium _Acetobacter_ is present, e.g. brought in on the feet of fruit-flies. The word *Ethanol* brought up a subject I have wanted to do a post on for a long time. Years ago I read a article called *An Alternative for Beekeepers:Alcohol Production* The article by G.W.Hayes,Jr. of the Agriculture Technical Institue in Wooster,Ohio. A couple quotes from the article: "With the assistance of the ATI Chemistry Department personal ,some impressive results were obtained in producing small quantities of ethanol from honey." A table shows the amount of alcohol produced from Corn, Milo, Spring Wheat, Winter Wheat, Cane Molasses, Beet Molasses, Barley, Cull Potatoes and Sweet Sorghum. Then the article says quote: "Compare the amount of ethanol produced from honey in table 4 to a like amount of material in table 3. This amount of clean,burnable ethanol far outdistances ANY of the agriculture product NOW in use to produce ethanol commercially." Don't we really need another use for honey besides food? Couldn't we get government funds for research with the high cost of gasoline today or is the strangle hold the oil companies have got on the U.S. to strong? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri Ps. the amount of honey consumed per person in the U.S. has remained at 1 pound versus 100 pound for sugar for as long as I can remember despite the efforts of the National Honey Board. Maybe powering our vehicles with honey/ethanol might help the U.S.beekeeper. Another buyer in the marketplace can't hurt the monopoly the honey packers enjoy at this time. Now its *sell yourself* or *sell to us*. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:24:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Don't we really need another use for honey besides food? Couldn't we get > government funds for research with the high cost of gasoline today or is the > strangle hold the oil companies have got on the U.S. to strong? 1 pint honey=$2-$5 and more without further processing. 1 pint ethanol, about $1, depending on concentration at the local drugstore. I think we are in the law of diminishing returns here, with the initial product having more value than the finished product. There is a big differnece between the price of corn to produce one pint of ethanol than and equivalent amount of honey. The value added product, if you want to produce ethanol, is mead. Then you can have your cake and drink it too. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:41:17 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey In-Reply-To: <200102110032.TAA05084@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob wrote: >The word *Ethanol* brought up a subject I have wanted to do a post on for a >long time. ... "some >impressive results were obtained in producing small quantities of ethanol >from honey." > >Don't we really need another use for honey besides food? > Maybe powering our vehicles with >honey/ethanol might help the U.S.beekeeper. I sympathise with those getting too little for their honey, but the notion raised here is no solution. Ethanol (also called ethyl alcohol) is already added to petrol in a fairly big way, producing your 'gasohol', by an industry which maintains the suavest offices I've seen near Capitol Hill. This does improve the petrol's quality, but is not a wise land-use. Among the reasons it succeeds commercially is that this ethanol arises as one of several products in a farm-based industry which obviously has some political clout. Energy farming, the general idea of using photosynthesis to produce fuel, is in most versions a loser. The energy consumed, mainly as diesel fuel, by machinery-intensive farming exceeds the energy in the product. This was all documented in the late 1970s when 'energy farming' first came forward as a concept in various forms. Farms are worth running for the *qualities* of what they produce, but if you assess it purely on energy the modern mechanised farms are energy sinks. I am unfamiliar with the report Bob quotes from, but on its face it is implausible. The ethanol yield in brewing follows closely the concentration of sugars in the feedstock; it is very difficult to see how honey could breach this pattern to any large extent. More seriously, honey has qualities unavailable from oil companies. The wound-dressing role on which I and others have raved must offer some prospect for marketing. To squander this great gift of God as mere feedstock for fermentation to alcohol, when fuels are readily available otherwise, would be in my view a sin. Yes, I know the oil companies are bad. (The same gangs are in NZ too. If you think your petrol is expensive, just find out the prices elsewhere. Yanks have the cheapest petrol.) But trying to compete against them by any form of energy farming is doomed; and the wonderful qualities of honey should remove from consideration any such idea. R - Robt Mann Mulgoon Professor emeritus of Environmental Studies, U of Auckland consultant stirrer & motorcyclist P O Box 28878, Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:05:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, I find no fault with Roberts reply but do feel I need to comment on Bills. Robert has read the report so he understands the report better maybe than Bill. The report can be found in the March 1984 issue of "Gleaning in Bee Culture" page 137. At the time Mr. Hayes wrote the report the U.S. government was the largest buyer of honey in the U.S. through forfeiture on *honey loans*. The government at the time had warehouses full of drums all it could figure to do with was give away as commodities. I repeat give away! Mr. Hayes because of the real problems with gas prices and shortages of the 80's saw the solution as a very real one. Because so many commecial beekeepers are on the verge of bankruptcy right now the old honey loan is being reinstated with the forfeiture clause. Why? Because of the value of pollination these beekeepers provide. In short history is repeating itself. The U.S. government is setting itself up again to be the largest buyer of honey in the U.S. Even with the $150,000 limit this time they still could get many thousands of barrels of honey before long. Ethanol could be a better return on their money than giving away as commodities which was the solution they came up with last time. Bill wrote: 1 pint honey=$2-$5 and more without further processing. 1 pint ethanol, about $1, depending on concentration at the local drugstore. Come on Bill these figures don't reflect the real world of large scale beekeeping. Right now the two largest buyers of honey in our area are not buying honey at any price. They are stocked up for the next year. If the were they are only paying tops of $.55 (U.S.) per pound. That figures out to with a pint (1 1/2 pound) to $.83 for 1 1/2 pound of the best grade of honey. Most research today says a honey producer needs $1.15 per pound to make money and $.65 a pound to break even. I sell in the health food stores which commands a higher price than the grocery stores and I don't get get $2-$5 a pint and I do FURTHER Processing by filtering and putting in jars and delivery to the stores. If I could get half the low figure you quote $2 a pint in the drum I would NEVER sell in the stores. Period. Bill wrote: I think we are in the law of diminishing returns here, with the initial product having more value than the finished product. There is a big differnece between the price of corn to produce one pint of ethanol than and equivalent amount of honey. You are probbably right in the long run but who really knows what level gas prices might level out at. I do believe the large oil companies will fight any new uses of ethanol. The value added product, if you want to produce ethanol, is mead. Then you can have your cake and drink it too. The small beekeeper can do added value but not the large honey producer /polinator. Thats like saying my close friend which farms around 2,000 acres around Odessa can grind all his corn into flour and sell flour at $2-5 a bag. I don't necesarily disagree with what you have said and ethanol may not be the answer to the plight of the American Beekeeper but thought I should at least present the other side of the discussion for Bee-L people to see. Thanks for the reply Bill & Robert! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:47:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: If the > were they are only paying tops of $.55 (U.S.) per pound. That figures out > to with a pint (1 1/2 pound) to $.83 for 1 1/2 pound of the best grade of > honey. Most research today says a honey producer needs $1.15 per pound to > make money and $.65 a pound to break even. My figures were for the finshed product at retail. .55 is much more than the finished product at wholesale. The only way it would be economical is if honey sold for much less than that, which puts the producer out of business. Unless the government bought it all and gave it away. But even then the procees line for corn distillation might mean the manufacturer has to change it for honey. I am not sure if they would invest that kind of money based on a government program that can end at any time. Bill T ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:22:12 -0500 Reply-To: todd@honeygardens.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Todd D. Hardie" Organization: Honey Gardens Apiaries. Inc. Subject: hand & body care products using the work of the bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have experience making a lotion and/or body/face scrub/exfoliant with honey and other bee products? If so, could they share a receipe or suggest where to go for this? Thank you. Todd D. Hardie Honey Gardens Apiaries, Inc. P.O. Box 189 Hinesburg, VT 05461 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:55:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Making Mead with Fermenting honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, My figures were for the finshed product at retail. The word retail shouldn't enter into the discussion because retail doesn't apply in this situation. All retail means to me is the amount you recieve between wholesale and retail with all the costs of bottling,bottles,labels,delivering to stores,making up invoices,filtering,clarifieing and the list goes on taken away. The store market is not a easy market. The market does move product. The average commercial beekeeper has to cut his hive numbers by at least half to do retail unless he is making enough money to hire help. Many people (not beekeepers & x beekeepers) are poping up buying honey for wholesale drum prices and selling in the stores. Many of those quit after awhile as the profit margin between *wholesale* and *wholesale to stores * is smaller than you think. I remember when honey prices soared to record highs. Those people had to raise their prices to the stores. The average increase to *Wal Mart * was over .20 U.S.. They were shocked when Wal mart added another .20 to the increase making the total increase .40. When asked why Wal Mart said "thats the way they do any price increase". When the consumer got over the price shock and started buying honey and honey was available cheaper in the drums again the prices started comming down. We told all producers at our meetings that letting the market slide back was a foolish thing to do but each producer was trying to put the lowest price honey on the shelf because like it or not the lowest price honey on the shelf in the supermarket sells the most jars. One final thought. If you are a hobby beekeeper producing a quality product price your honey by YOUR bottom line and not off the store shelve prices. I compete with packers buying truckloads of foreign honey a week. The average sideline/commercial beekeeper can't price his or her honey to the stores as cheap as those guys can and stay in business. Also the large packers will price their honey lower in a store which has a large number of beekeepers selling until the small beekeepers honey is pulled because of slow sales. Very old trick. When the little beekeeper is gone the price goes back up on the packers honey. Relations between producers & producers in retail sales is not a friendly one. In many supermarkets you have to pull your own jars to the front of the shelves yourself most of the time. I have seen bears which were put at the front of the shelf the day before pushed clear to the back out of eye contact the next day on return to stock the shelves. Happens quite a bit and done by the competion. If you notice which honey is all pulled to the front of the shelf you can figure out the culpret. But even then the procees line for corn distillation might mean the manufacturer > has to change it for honey. I am not sure if they would invest that kind > of money based on a government program that can end at any time. > I worked at Midwest Grain for a year as a teenager. They were training me at the time to run the still so I learned quite a bit about the operation. Honey would be easier to distill than corn because we had to cook corn From: "JOSEPH F. ROSSMAN" Subject: Re: Request for help Fixing leaking wooden frame feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > Hello all, > > A bit late in replying, but we find soft micro wax works really well in > sealing wooden frame feeders and any other type of feeders. Talk to your > petroleum companies and ask for their softest wax. Heat it up, pour it in > and swish it from end to end of the feeder until any leaks are plugged up. > > I have tried the wax several times but the wax always separates from the > wood later. I have been told to take a propane torch and heat the wood first > and then the wax will stick. Have you ever had a problem with the wax > lifting later? > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > Odessa,Missouri Bob, If your wax is separating from the wood then you did not get the wax hot enough so that it would penetrate into the wood. We use parafin wax to coat our feeders and you have to get it hot enough that it has a slight smoke to it. However you really must be careful as it is a petrolum product and will catch fire. Fred Rossman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:23:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Martin_Hrom=E1dko?= Subject: The first fly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, today 11-th February my bees went out as the first day in the year. = Temperature was more than 10=B0C. So maybe spring will come quickly in = my country. The bees brought pollen from a tree too, i think they have a = broad. Do you have somebody same experience from similar area like is = Czech rep. ( Polland, Germany), or next? = Martin Hromadko = Czech republic =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:43:42 -0000 Reply-To: "j.burgess4" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "j.burgess4" Subject: Re: Used Bee Books - where can you value? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Anyone else have a site with a bunch of used bee-books? > B & K Books of Hay-on-Wye Riverside Newport Street Hay-on-Wye HR3 5BG UK showler@cma-int.demon.co.uk Karl Showler is a specialist in beekeeping books, old and new, and a practising beekeeper. His catalogue lists books going back to 1744, with many in the late 1800's. Well worth asking for if you are interested in old beekeeping books. John Burgess, Editor Gwenynwyr Cymru/The Welsh Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:29:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Hughes Subject: Beekeeping Short Course in Memphis, Tennessee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Memphis Area Beekeepers Association will be holding their annual BEEKEEPING SHORT COURSE on Saturday, March 31, 2001 at the University of Tennessee Agricultural Extension Office located at 5565 Shelby Oaks Drive, Memphis, Tennessee 38134-7316. Registration will start at 8:30 AM and the course will start at 9:00 AM. The cost is $10.00 which includes materials, 1 year dues in the MABA and a great Memphis WORLD FAMOUS BBQ lunch. For more information contact Bill Hughes at bhfarms@prodigy.net or at phone number (901) 475-1918 after 6:30 PM. Bill Hughes bhfarms@prodigy.net Memphis Area Beekeepers Association ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:05:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Esad Cancar Subject: Re: The first fly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Martin & all! Nothing for wory, Martin. I have 3rd generation of 2001. They came with pollen in January. I didn`t know from where. But today they are very hapy.If you approach to them, they `ll take rest on your head without any decision to sting. Reconsider food. Don`t be surpriseg if you find 4 frames full with brood. Today my fiend - beekeeper found two queen cells. Prepare yourself for swarming in April. Have nice day. Esad, Bosnia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:39:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Request for help Fixing leaking wooden frame feeders Comments: To: jrossman@surfsouth.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Fred & all, You are right about the temperature as I make cut & curl candles and have got a tank witch has ten vats and holds around 400 pounds of wax. Sometimes colors get off through the dipping process so what to do with the wax becomes a problem. I have got quite a few feeders I bought from Doug Gabbert which needed repair so I put the odd colors as a coating on around 100 hive top feeders. The paraffin all peeled off. What a mess. I coated at around 165F so that's the temperature the wax was when I coated the feeders. They worked great for about a week until the outside temperature rose and fell a few times then they all peeled off paraffin in sheets. Any idea what the temperature might be? My tank is heated by two 220 5,000 wt. emersion heaters so high temperatures are not a problem. I didn't think about turning up the heat. Duh! Thanks for solving my problem. Good luck with the bees in the coming year! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri Fred wrote, If your wax is separating from the wood then you did not get the wax hot enough so that it would penetrate into the wood. We use parafin wax to coat our feeders and you have to get it hot enough that it has a slight smoke to it. However you really must be careful as it is a petrolum product and will catch fire. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:18:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: Re: Used Bee Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Here are some of the best book search engines on the web. I have found incredibly hard to find books (my favorite site is the first one, Advanced Book Exchange) by registering my "want" by title or author, then if it isn't there, when a match does come up, it emails me. I have found every book mentioned here in the last 2 years within a week or two thru ABE. Vivian http://www.abebooks.com/ http://www2.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/bookstore http://www.bibliofind.com/ http://www.bookfinder.com/ http://www.powellsbooks.com/ http://www.connectotel.com/books/wwwbs.html http://www.bowker.com/bop/home/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:48:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Honey Exposed to Stainless Steel, Aluminum, and Plastic In-Reply-To: <200012130214.VAA12942@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I finally had time to respond to an old topic... On Tue, 12 Dec 2000, Mark Coldiron wrote: > I've noticed that when I eat a spoonful of honey with a stainless > steel spoon, I can really taste the metal. I tried several > different brands of stainless steel spoons and the taste was always > very strong. Thinking that most honey processing equipment and > storage tanks are made of stainless steel, I thought I must be > imagining things. So, I tried a plastic spoon. No metallic taste!! As Eddy Lear responded (at the time), the metallic taste is probably coming from your tongue contacting the spoon, not from the stainless steel leaching contaminates into the honey. > Now I know this must sound dumb to a lot of you, but why use > stainless steel if it leaves a metallic taste? What's wrong with > plastic tanks, troughs, etc...? The cost sure would be a lot less. > An extractor could have a plastic drum just like most modern washing > machines do - couldn't it? I'd advise caution in recommending plastic containers for honey storage. There is evidence linking a chemical found in certain plastics (Bisphenol A) to altered growth and early puberty in lab mice: http://www.ncsu.edu/ncsu/univ_relations/news_services/press_releases/99_10/305.htm Kembra L. Howdeshell, Kristina A. Thayer, and Frederick S. vom Saal. 1999. Plastic Bisphenol A speeds growth and puberty. Nature Volume 401 Number 6755 Page 763 - 764 (1999) I've also seen claims linking synthetic estrogens found in plastics and pesticides to (among other things) the increased rate of breast cancer in women, and decreased sperm viability and motility in men. Here's one reference: Sharpe, R.M. and Shakkebaek. 1993. Are oestrogens involved in falling sperm counts and disorders of the male reproductive tract? Lancet 341:1392-1395. ...although other studies did not support all of the above study's findings: Fisch, H. and Goluboff. 1996. Geographic variations in sperm counts: A potential cause of bias in studies of semen quality. Fertility and Sterility 65:1044-1046. BTW, I found the references to most of the above studies here: http://www.som.tulane.edu/ecme/eehome/ The bottom line: don't assume that plastic containers don't leach residue just because you can't detect any such residue with your taste buds! Plastic is less expensive than stainless steel, but stainless steel is a known quantity, and as far as contamination/reactivity is concerned, it's about as pure as one can get. (As Eddy Lear also commented, stainless is the top of the range for food quality.) > I've also noticed that many cooking pots and utensils are made of > aluminum. Be careful here; the world of cookware is full of complexities. ;) Although aluminum is a good heat conductor, like unseasoned cast iron, it is also reactive, and will leach into foods. Since aluminum is also relatively inexpensive (cheaper than stainless steel, and easier to work with), it's used to make cookware designed to be sold at the lowest price possible. Such cookware is next to worthless: the aluminum is inevitably very thin, which creates "hot spots" and uneven heat distribution in general. Even worse, since the aluminum leaches into foods, it exposes the people who use it to higher levels of aluminum. Although humans need certain amounts of aluminum, aluminum is toxic at higher levels, and has been associated with (among other things) extreme nervousness, speech disturbances, and anemia. There is also some new evidence that high levels of aluminum are associated with Alzheimer's disease. Fun, eh? However, many lines of expensive, high-end, "high-performance" cookware is made from aluminum. Such high-end cookware uses much thicker layers of aluminum, and any exposed aluminum is hard-anodized (meaning, the aluminum is treated to make it non-reactive). On many lines, the interior surface is a thin layer of stainless steel, which is about as close to completely non-reactive as one can get. (High-end cookware generally has a minimum of stainless steel, because stainless steel is actually a poor heat conductor, which leads to hot spots and uneven heat distribution, just like thin aluminum.) IMHO: I wouldn't use plastic or aluminum containers for extracting or storing honey until more data has been gathered on the abilities of said materials to leach into and contaminate honey. Honey enjoys a "natural" and "good-for-you" reputation in the minds of most people; a few stories about contaminated honey would do a lot of damage to that reputation. James Ralston Pittsburgh, PA, USA Amateur beekeeper (and amateur chef) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:35:42 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Divide the hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Wajih. The easiest way to control swarming while having the least disruption otherwise is to install a queen excluder under the bottom box (above the bottom board). Swarms then will self-retrieve in less than two hours. You have to check for queen cells every 10 days while the QE is in place. I presume the "swarm fever" which continues will detract from their concentration on new nectar but all the bees will stay in the hive. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:24:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ham Morton Subject: Almost Black Honey During August and September last year in central North Carolina (Sampson Country for you that know NC)my bees collected some near black honey. Its taste was on the mild side but appearence was not good at all. Flowers in the area was cucumber, cotton and sun flowers. Any ideas? Thanks and good luck this year!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: Re: Pellett's History of U.S. Beekeeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm looking for a copy of this book. I'd welcome any off-list tips on where to find one. Thanks, Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 South Willard St., Burlington, VT 05401 Phone: 802-863-4938 Fax: 802-864-7982 Bee Happy in your work! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:08:27 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Dividing Many years ago -- 1975, I guess -- I helped a beekeeper from the Imperial Valley of California make up his summer losses. During the long, hot (up to 120 F) summer was when most of the hives failed. In the winter, he would truck them over to the coast where the hives could build up in the avocado groves on mustard, ceanothus, and other early bloomers. In fact, when this beekeeper was a kid and worked with his father, they used to camp in tents on the beach -- made a vacation out of it. Anyway, he would set the hives out in rows, as California beekeepers like to do, leaving space in between the rows for another set of rows. After the hives had set for a few weeks, truckloads of dead hives would be brought in and the "dead-outs" would be set in rows behind the live ones. Then we would smoke the live hives at the entrance, driving most of the bees into the second story. This would be placed on top of an empty single story hive and an empty second story would be placed on the live hive. He had several other ways of dividing hives, but this was the fastest and easiest one I ever saw saw. You could divide hundreds of hives per day this way. Of course, they had to raise their own queens, but very often the hives already had queen cells under way and sometimes we would cut these out and give them to the weaker ones so that they would benefit from a nice fat queen cell. Reminiscence by Peter Borst Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jay Mowat Subject: Resistant Foulbrood in Canada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This from the Canadian Press in the last couple of days: HL:Mba beekeepers fight to keep out spore that could destroy honey industry WINNIPEG (CP) -- Manitoba beekeepers are struggling to keep out an antibiotic-resistant spore that has the potential to destroy the province's honey industry. "It could literally wipe out entire operations," Phil Velduis, chairman of the Manitoba Beekeepers Association, said Friday. American Foulbrood Disease not only destroys developing honeybees, its spores remain in the brood comb and infect future generations. There is only one antibiotic in Canada approved to control the disease, but a strain resistant to that antibiotic has already plagued United States beekeepers for years. The strain has recently been discovered in bee colonies in British Columbia and Alberta where it has had a serious effect on commercial operations. "Because it happened in Alberta first, they were fairly deeply into it before they were able to figure it out," Velduis, a commercial beekeeper from Starbuck, Man., said in an interview during the association's annual convention in Winnipeg. "Whereas we, because it's on the radar screen, it's not going to surprise us." The association has been working to educate producers about the risk of buying used beekeeping equipment from other provinces, which could transport the disease into Manitoba, said Velduis. It is already illegal to import used equipment from the United States and a permit is required to bring it into Manitoba from other provinces. Manitoba has about 400 beekeepers from hobbyists to large-scale commercial operations. Velduis said the industry is well regulated in Manitoba and beekeeping operations are regularly inspected by the province. Still, beekeepers have to stay alert to the danger, said provincial apiarist Don Dixon. "This disease is found, generally, in this industry and there's a need for every beekeeper to be vigilant," said Dixon. "I think it's, potentially, a serious threat." The one mitigating factor, he said, is that the disease is easy to spot and can be eliminated if caught in time. The Prairie provinces produce 60 per cent of Canada's honey. Manitoba's $15-million honey industry accounts for about 20 per cent of that. (Winnipeg Free Press) CP 1932ES 09-02-01 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:24:23 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Divide the hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/01 3:33:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, danhendan@YAHOO.COM writes: << Hi, Wajih. The easiest way to control swarming while having the least disruption otherwise is to install a queen excluder under the bottom box (above the bottom board). Swarms then will self-retrieve in less than two hours. You have to check for queen cells every 10 days while the QE is in place. I presume the "swarm fever" which continues will detract from their concentration on new nectar but all the bees will stay in the hive. Dan >> Ha! As one who has tried this technique, I guarantee that it will make more problems than it will solve. For one thing, you will have a problem with drones clogging the excluder. I've seen so many dead drones on the excluder that the bees cannot pass at all. The bees are apt to get really mean. Furthermore the swarm urge is so strong that a mere excluder simply will not stop it. And cutting queen cells will keep the bees demoralized, take a LOT of time, and eventually fail as well, as you will invariably miss one cell, usually a little weak one. The bees will exit with the little queen, who can easily squeeze thru the excluder. Even if you succeed in capturing the swarm, it isn't worth much because the queen is junk. If you only have a couple hives, and unlimited time that you can waste, you might consider cutting queen cells as an avocation that's better than drinking and gambling. Honeybee queens are programed to swarm in their second year. Why do so many beekeepers waste time and resources fighting the inevitable? I suppose there is a mix of the human urge to tinker with the human urge to be masters of all. I think it is wiser to try to think like bees, to help them do what they want to do, rather than fight with them. We might play a little trick now and then to get them to make some minor changes, but we have to really leave them mostly in charge. We can only take the things we know about their behavior and try to work with that. We cannot change their behavior. As stated before, we know that queens are programed to swarm in their second year. A young queen will swarm, but only if it is pushed to do so by crowding in the brood chamber. So, if we want to prevent swarming entirely, we can requeen all hives in the fall, or early spring, and keep plenty of room available for the queen by watching for congested brood chambers, and by early supering. Suppose we cannot get queens in the fall or early spring, or we cannot afford them? Then work with the natural urge of the bees. Swarming is the natural urge of the bees to reproduce. And we can help them do it. Normally we will have some dead hives which need replacement, or we want to have some bees to sell for extra income, so this works right into our program as well. This puts us right back into our original idea; making nucs. As soon as you see swarm cells, make nucs. Handle frames with queen cells very gently as queens at some points in their development will be damaged even by turning the cell upside down. Just make sure you have one or two queen cells on the frames of the brood you use for the nuc. If you see "ripe" cells, with the cap being chewed and darkened color, then you don't have to be so cautious. You can even carefully cut them off with a sharp blade, and handling them by the base so you won't crush them, and press them against the upper part of the comb to attach. When you finish, you have helped the bees do what they wanted to do: reproduce. The only change, from their point of view is that they did it a few days earlier. They will happily settle down to work, and you will have not wasted a lot of time fighting their natural urge. You will also not lost the productivity of the swarms you would lose. The neighbors are not terrorized by your lost swarms. So all are happy. Another advantage: you will have had a chance to look thru the hives, examining all comb, replacing old rotten wooden parts, etc. One time thru the bees each year is plenty, and you have chosen the best time of all: when the bees are preoccupied with their urge to reproduce. Tearing hives apart more than once each year will cut the productivity of the bees. It is still a good idea to look at a frame or two to check the brood pattern of the queen and check for disease, but don't go thru them frame by frame, unless there is a problem. I have a trailer that is just the right height to be a workbench. The tailgate of a pickup truck will work almost as well. When I go thru the bees on my annual spring "working the bees," I pick up each hive in turn and set it on the workbench. I place an empty hive with all good wooden parts in the place of the live one. As I work I remember that the field bees will be returning to the new hive on the original spot. If I make up nucs on the site I always keep in mind that some of the bees will fly back to the original site, so I give them extra bees. Or I can put them into a nuc box that can be closed with screens, to be removed beyond flight distance, when I am through for the day. For a good strong hive, I often can put the original queen back on the original site in a new box, with two or three frames of sealed brood. She will quickly supply eggs, and this hive will quickly build back to a good strength. The rest of the brood is used for nuc building. If there are queen cells (and there often are, because I time this as best I can to have cells), I don't bother to look for the queen. I just make sure all parts of the split have cells. If there are no cells, I can either cut ripe cells from another hive, or mark them to get a cell or a queen in a cage the next day. In making nucs sometimes you use frames from more than one hive. During a flow, you can mix bees with no problem; they all have their bellies full, and they will not fight. But a nuc that has been given the old queen, and no cells, should only be made with her own bees and brood. The bees, even will full bellies, will sometimes kill the queen. I like to give cells to all parts, if I can, because the old queen will often lead out a later swarm after they have build back up to strength. It's an interesting time, my favorite time of the year. You have a half dozen hives open at once, and have to keep your "head on your shoulders" as to which one has what. The sweetness of nectar is heavy on the air (maybe on your clothes as well), and the bees are contentedly working away, often completely ignoring you and your machinations. Sometimes you get to see the dancing bees. You haven't lived until you've seen the dancing bees. Sometimes there is more adventure. You have a bunch of hives open, and there comes a sudden thunderstorm. Now you are running around trying to get everything covered, the bees are stinging your wet shirt (and getting through), and you are telling yourself what a fool you are for thinking you could get on with a couple more before the storm hit. The only time I would ever use a queen excluder UNDER the brood chamber is after you have CAUGHT a swarm and put it in a box with no brood. Sometimes a swarm will decide not to stay in the home you have provided. If you prevent the queen from leaving until she has produced some brood, they will generally stay. I remember one time when I had installed a nervous swarm and kept the queen restrained in a queen cage. They all flew out and went to the woods. I waited about ten minutes, and they all returned. I was just about ready to load them and take them home, when they took off again. They did this three times, and returned three times, after which I took them home. The next morning, I let the queen out of the cage. I should have used the excluder method to hold her a little longer. The bees had already selected a home site, and they would not be stopped by moving. They probably didn't realize they had moved. At any rate they left and were lost to me. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:43:08 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/12/01 3:52:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, morton@INTERPATH.COM writes: << During August and September last year in central North Carolina (Sampson Country for you that know NC)my bees collected some near black honey. Its taste was on the mild side but appearence was not good at all. Flowers in the area was cucumber, cotton and sun flowers. Any ideas? >> None of those three nectar sources will make honey that dark. Cotton honey is light. Sun flowers don't yield much in the South, and cucumbers don't yield much anywhere. Summer flows in the Carolinas are quite spotty, and keep you guessing as to the source. You will often have hives right beside each other that do completely different things. Some will do nothing at all in the heat of the summer. One source that I know makes dark honey is a weed, a little blue flower I've always called ironweed. It blooms from June to frost, and bees will work it the entire time. The honey is very dark and rich, of nice flavor. It is in the vervain family, and I believe the one that is common along field edges and roadsides is an import from South America. I think there is a picture of this plant on my page; run a search for vervain or ironweed. Another source of dark, but nice honey is when the bees suck fruit. This happens sometimes on a really hot, dry spell. It can happen with elderberries or wild grapes, or other fruits when wasps bite thru the fruit skins. You can taste the fruitiness in the honey. There are other blossoms. I sometimes get a small flow in August off logged over woods, which I call "brush honey." I've never been able to fully determine the exact sources. I've seen the bees work sumac and cow itch vine, and some others. But I'm sure there are more sources. There is one summer honey that makes me check every super, whenever I extract any summer honey. It is very light, with white wax, and you expect a lovely honey, when you see it. But the honey is so foul, I can only compare it with a mix of urine and alum. The bitter aftertaste will make you just about willing to eat sand, if that would get the taste out of your mouth. It has been suggested that this is from bitterweed, though I haven't confirmed that the bees work it. Again it is a spotty thing. One hive in an entire yard may be the only one that has this. But one frame in a tank of honey is too much! One of my goals in coming years is to determine more of these mysterious sources. Some would be worth propagating. I'd love to be the owner of a field planted to vitex, which makes a light, mild honey and keeps on yielding in the hottest, driest weather. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:45:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: Mason Bees (long) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Allen Dick wrote: ............> > Maybe a similar system would work for these bees? If not, maybe using 3/4" or > 1/2" boards grooved top and bottom on a router and bound together with tape or > through bolts would work? ........... I've used the "sandwich" system for several years for observation blocks. My technique is to use a table saw to cut 5/16 in grooves in 1X6's and then duct-tape plates of glass or plastic (plastic wrap does not work - the bees chew it up) to the block on the sides and back. During the season the "sandwich" can be taken apart for inspection. If you are careful, you can even watch the bees working thru the glass. The problem with the glass is that it's hard to get a good seal to the wood and mites & parasitoid wasps can sometimes work their way around to several cells. One of the local mason bee guys told me that cleaning the coccoons and just placing them loose in a box, as is done with leaf-cutters, does not work real well for Osmia as they tend to fly away unless they are made to work their way out of a hole. I may try it, anyway, as it would be an easy way to keep the bees clean of mites. If anyone has some spare time (yeah...right...) it would be interesting to mark bees released in this way and just see what the return rate is. I'm not aware of any published research on this subject. Another fruit-grower told me that the loose cells can be place in a paper bag with the top folded over (to make the bees "work" to get out) has worked well for her. The use of reeds is a great idea -- if you happen to have reeds... My latest "cheap" method that I'm using is to drill all the way thru wooden blocks and make paper liners by wrapping strips of typing paper (newspaper is not strong enough) around a 1/4 inch steel rod and inserting into the hole. When the paper is released, it springs open, filling the hole. The rod is then extracted. By leaving one inch "tails" sticking out the back, you can fold them all down and seal the back with a couple layers of duct tape. The bees seem to like these fine and seldom chew up the paper. When it comes time to store the pupae, the duct tape can be removed and the tubes removed by pulling on the "tails". These tubes are easily opened for inspection and are "springy" enough so that they re-close by themselves. The tubes can be placed in a box or bag for emergence and the blocks sterilized and reused. cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:00:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "David L. Green" wrote: > morton@INTERPATH.COM writes: > > << During August and September last year in central North Carolina (Sampson > Country for you that know NC)my bees collected some near black honey. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > There are other blossoms. I sometimes get a small flow in August off > logged over woods, which I call "brush honey." Arizona - especially along "waterways", which are often dry on the surface - gets lots of tamarisk honey (Athel tree) from July to Sept.. This is a dark honey with a reflected surface shine like motor oil (greenish). It has a pronounced alum taste, but the bees like it for winter fuel. The close relative of those big trees is the brushy "salt-cedar", which blooms in April, and helps bees build up early. These trees are from north Africa, and will grow many places in very salty situations - I even heard from a relative in Great Britain that he had seen them near the "beach" at Brighton, almost in the ocean spray. They were often planted by homesteaders here because of the deep roots and dense shade they provide. Older ones' trunks can be several feet in diameter. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:14:52 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ainars Millers Subject: Re: The first fly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Martin! I suppose that you have spring 2-3 weeks earlier as we in Latvia. In some years we have first fly in the end of February, beginning of March, the temperature should be +9-10C, sunshine, no wind. The brooding is starting in January(very little) and it is increasing rapidly after first fly (sometimes only in April). Normally if the first fly is so early it is good, because the hives are developing and they are strong enough to use first honey flow in April,May. Also folk-belief says: if bees are flying out early in spring it will be a good honey year. The problems can cause cold weather, because bees should maintain high temperature in hive for broods (approx.+33C). If first fly is so early, it is big possibility that cold and snow will still come. If there is a longer period of cold, bees are consuming a lot of honey and you can loose them due to starvation. Or they cannot maintain temperature enough for brooding. Very important is insulation of your hives to prevent warm losses. Stimulating with candy is advisable ( if you have natural honey and pollen sources at that time and warm weather then is no need for candy, of course). Treatment of varroa should be started. It is very important how you prepared your hives for wintering, because beekeepers year starts in autumn. It will depend very much on weather in spring and I hope you will have an excellent honey-season this year. With best regards to all beekeepers which have their hives still "sleeping and to all others which enjoy already their bees in working (you are lucky!) Ainars Millers Ugale, LATVIA P.S. I would be very glad to know if there are any beekeepers from Scandinavia, Baltic states or Eastern Europe on the list. What is your experience? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:01:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ham Morton asked? >During August and September last year in central North Carolina (Sampson >Country for you that know NC)my bees collected some near black honey. Its >taste was on the mild side but appearence was not good at all. Flowers in >the area was cucumber, cotton and sun flowers. Any ideas? In the Fall of the year, one can quite often get a flow of honeydew. In California that yields a dark and mild-flavored "honey" (though not really honey). Detection is easy; it is stringy when one draws up a bit from the surface. Some Europeans consider that honey a treat and pay a premium price for it. For us it provides a good source of winter fuel but not by itself. Of course, one gets no pollen from such a source. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The production of scientific knowledge is simultaneously * the production of scientific error." * Naomi Aronson, 1986 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:27:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Divide the hive in the honey flow period Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Dan Hendricks advises the insertion of a Queen Excluder to prevent the queen leaving with swarm. Is there any elegant way of allowing the drones to escape - I seem to remember some ingenious method involving cones? Sincerely Tom Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:53:39 -0800 Reply-To: honeyboy@pacbell.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Honeyboy Subject: San Mateo, CA Bee Course MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Beekeepers Guild of San Mateo County will host an Introduction to Beekeeping class on Saturday, March 17, from 9:00 am to 4:00 pm, in San Mateo, California. Registration is $40 and includes a copy of course materials, coffee, and lunch. The fee should be sent to Beekeepers Guild of San Mateo County 4643 Norwalk Street Union City, CA 94587 A map and directions will be sent with registration confirmation. For more information contact Sue at (510) 489-4952 (e-mail suzbeez@aol.com). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:39:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Dividing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > Many years ago -- 1975, I guess -- I helped a beekeeper from the Imperial Valley > of California make up his summer losses. > <<>>> > , truckloads of dead hives would be brought in and the "dead-outs" > would be set in rows behind the live ones. Peter - sounds simple and useful - were the dead-out entrances facing in the opposite direction?? - John Edwards Peon Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS, Tucson, Arizona http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:15:18 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peacey Subject: Re: Resistant Foulbrood in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, Sorry to hear about the spread of anti-biotic resistant AFB to parts of Canada. Reading about this makes me think about how glad I am that New Zealand did not go down the road of treating AFB hives with anti-biotics. I defy any AFB spore to become resistant to our methods! Whenever we find AFB we have only two options: burn everything - lid, base, queen excluder, wooden hive mat, feeders, frames - the lot after killing the bees (some gas, some use petrol) or the other option is to burn the frames and dip the rest in very hot paraffin wax for at least 10 minutes. It's ruthless and it's expensive but it works. In New Zealand we reached a peak of reported AFB hive of 1.2% in 1990. In 1991 our National Beekeeping Association instituted an AFB Control Programme. Over the next seven years the reported incidence of AFB decreased by an average of 12% per annum reaching a low of 0.38% in 1998. The good news is that many beekeepers are continually reducing the incidence of AFB throughout their operations and that through great vigilance, planning, education and minor changes to beekeeping practices, it is possible to control AFB without the use of anti-biotics. If anyone is interested I would recommend a brilliant book called "Elimination of American Foulbrood Without the Use of Drugs - A Practical Manual for Beekeepers" by Dr. Mark Goodwin and Cliff van Eaton. The book is published by the National Beekeepers' Association of New Zealand and the address is: The Executive Secretary, National Beekeepers Association, P.O. Box 6015, Wellington, New Zealand, Ph. (country code) 4 4737269 or fax. (country code) 4 4731081 or email at: tleslie@fedfarm.org.nz The book is cheap (especially with the U.S. and Canadian $ riding so high against the $NZ and very, very useful. All the best. Simon and Sarah Peacey Queenbreeders ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:59:20 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Divide hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Dave, for taking the time to go into all that detail in response to my queen-excluder-to-self-retrieve-swarms suggestion. I really enjoy hearing how the big boys do it. My system is, on the whole, "drone unfriendly". I keep a pollen trap under my hive for the first half of the season to keep the bees from plugging frames with never-to-be-used pollen. The QE just causes the dead drones to collect rather than straining them out. I empty them out every month or two. I have no way of knowing, of course, but my notion is that bees "want" to have drones in the hive as part of their ability-to-requeen-in-emergencies instinct. If so, they do not necessarily check to be sure the drones can get out if such is necessary to perform their intended function. In such event, they might not be too disturbed by the dead drones. I can tell they try to get the dead ones out, as one would expect, because part of the drone bodies are missing. I'd like to make a strange point here: Most of the time most of the bees have nothing to do. Like soldiers between wars and duty firemen between fires. Watching an observation hive, especially in the middle of the night, makes this plain. So worrying about bees being saddled with unnecessary tasks is misplaced IMO. (I'm not talking about during a strong flow, obviously.) I requeen with store-bought queens after the end of my last nectar flow in mid-July every year. In spite of this, I always have many new queens started every year and find them inspection after inspection. I often find the swarms I capture have virgin queens which can squeeze out of the slits in a queen catcher. I presume they would go through a QE also. I always put the swarm queens in a "Thurber Long Cage" for a couple of days to preclude re-swarming. My system of using a QE under works just fine for someone who has the time to use it. Most of the time the hive only swarms once - if you don't catch them in the act, you might not even know they had - but one swarmed five times before they gave up. Bottom line: I never lose any bees. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:49:29 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Smoking Out Bee Mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From the pages of Agricultural Research magazine http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/1997/mitesmoke0897.htm Smoking Out Bee Mites Beekeepers have a long-established practice of using smoke to calm their bees before opening the hive. Now U.S. Department of Agriculture scientists have found another potential benefit from smoke: Some plants, when burned, give off natural chemicals that control honey bee mites. Frank A. Eischen, an entomologist with USDA's Agricultural Research Service in Weslaco, Texas, has found that smoke from certain plants either kills varroa mites or causes them to fall off the bees. This mite began infesting honey bee colonies in the United States in the 1980s, was discovered in 1987, and has since become the biggest threat to managed honey bees. The mites attach to bees and feed on their blood. If the infestation is severe and left untreated, the mites usually kill the colony. The standard treatment for the mites is fluvalinate, a synthetic pyrethroid harmless to the bees. Beekeepers put fluvalinate-impregnated strips in their hives to kill mites, but they can use the strips only during times when bees are not making honey. Otherwise, the chemical could contaminate it. Another problem with fluvalinate is that European researchers have reported that mites are developing resistance to the chemical. Several years ago, Eischen began looking for alternative controls for mites. So far, he has tested smoke from about 40 plants. The first one he tried was a desert shrub called creosote bush, native to Mexico, Texas, and other areas of the Southwest. A Mexican beekeeper, David Cardoso, had recommended that Eischen test the olive-green plant, known in Mexico as gobernadora. Eischen set up a standard lab test, placing 300 to 400 mite-infested bees inside a cage and covering the cage with a plastic container. Then he put the plant material inside his smoker, lit it, puffed the smoke into the container, and corked the plastic container opening to prevent the smoke from escaping. He kept the smoke inside for 60 seconds, then removed the bees. Next, he placed the bees over a white, sticky card to catch any mites that fell off the bees. "Lo and behold, the smoke from creosote bush was knocking down mites right, left, and center," Eischen says. "It gave us the idea to start looking at other plants that, when burned, give off chemicals that removed the mites without harming bees." Among the 40 different plants Eischen has tested, the most promising plants are creosote bush and dried grapefruit leaves. Creosote bush smoke achieves a 90 to 100 percent mite knockdown after 1 minute, but Eischen says that excessive exposure can harm the bees. "It's similar to burning tobacco in that respect," he says. "It's hard to find chemicals that remove mites without harming bees." Grapefruit leaves fit that description. After 30 seconds, smoke from the grapefruit leaves knocked down 90 to 95 percent of the mites in the cage test. With grapefruit leaves, however, few of the mites are killed. Most simply fall off the bees. "The smoke chemicals either irritate the mites or confuse them. We aren't exactly sure," Eischen says. "But we do know that the grapefruit leaf smoke doesn't seem to have any bad effects on the bees at all. The bees come through fine." Eischen stresses that the findings thus far are preliminary. "These are crude experiments, and we haven't yet analyzed the active chemicals in the smoke that knock down the mites," he says. "We're not yet telling beekeepers to use these methods for controlling varroa mites," says Eischen. "We're using these experiments to try to identify and isolate the chemicals that act as miticides."--By Sean Adams, ARS. Sean Adams is on the Agricultural Research Service Information Staff; phone (301) 344-2723, sadams@asrr.arsusda.gov. Dr. Frank A. Eischen is at the USDA-ARS Honey Bee Research Laboratory, 2413 E. Hwy. 83, Weslaco, TX 78596; phone (210) 969-5005, fax (210) 969-5033, eischen@rsru2.tamu.edu. "Smoking Out Bee Mites" was published in the August 1997 issue of Agricultural Research magazine. Full text of article in .pdf format can be found from http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/ - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:17:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Stevens Subject: VIRUS ALERT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An unsolicitate beekeeping supply ad emailed from a company called Midnight Bee in Weston Connecticutt locked up the computers of several local beekeepers for hours. McAfee virus alert detected a virus in it. Bee-ware. Bob Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:16:01 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Queen Excluder to prevent the queen I agree with Dave that using a queen excluder in this way is a mistake. It wasn't designed for this purpose and someone who tries this simply hasn't understood the basic principles of modern beekeeping. We try to prevent swarming overall, not on a case by case basis. This means young queens, plenty of room for expansion of brood and honey storage, and probably removing some brood in spring to either start new hives or bolster the weak. Swarming is a hive's response to certain conditions -- mainly a lot of young bees crowding the nest and usually a honey flow. We try to keep them busy in the supers and keep their "minds" off swarming,Some will swarm even so. That's nature's way. Peter Ithaca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:34:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Dixon Subject: Queen Rearing Course I am looking for a good queen rearing course this spring or summer, preferably in the West or South-West of the U.S., or in Western Canada. Please reply to me directly as I am not currently on the bee-line list. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Making splits MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: "Then we would smoke the live hives at the entrance, driving most of the bees into the second story. This would be placed on top of an empty single story hive and an empty second story would be placed on the live hive." Peter, I have heard of this before, but am a little unclear. The purpose of smoking the hives was to drive the queen into the second story...right? Then, I gather, she and "some" of the brood (I presume that the beekeeper assumption was that most of the brood was in the lower body) was moved. The field bees come back to the original location. Most of the brood is there and that is used to raise a new queen. The old queen is at the new location...no field bees, but lots of room for her to lay. Lots of honey and some brood to establish a new hive. Do I have this about right? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: Resistant Foulbrood in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Ontario Canada is adopting the policy of burning the hives at the first sign of foul brood. We used to be able to shake the bees onto fresh foundation and treat. But the reccommondation now is to burn. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:56:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Mason Bees In-Reply-To: <200102101401.JAA24446@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200102101401.JAA24446@listserv.albany.edu>, Bob & Liz writes >I >believe the reeds work better but are not as cute in a yard/ garden setting. I have had blackberry canes recommended. Cut them to length and tie a bundle together and put them in a secluded place. >These solitary bees are for the many calls I get each year from people >wanting one hive of bees brought to their 10 by 20 garden for polination and >then REMOVED as soon as the garden is polinated. So do you just leave them in the garden? I have had a call from someone with only 1000 strawberry plants in a greenhouse. He has used bumble bees and is thinking of learning about honey bees. Would you commend solitary bees or do we have a problem of timing of flowering and the species we might attract? Would you *ever* use a nuc with an inside and an outside entrance placed at the westerly end (north side)? In the flowering and fruiting season the glass would be open most of the day. Many thanks for your informative posts. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:15:54 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do you have any tobacco growing near you. I have to watch mine as bees will gather pollen from the plants and its really dark(black) and doesn't taste very good. JIM kyhoneyman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:37:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Divide hive in the honey flow period MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dan & All, I agree with Dave & Peter and wouldn't recommend this method. Because Dan requeens each year and keeps one year old queens that's the main reason he sees little or no swarming. There are many methods of keeping bees and I have heard most at bee meetings including the excluder to stop swarming method. I also do not believe and practice clipping wings to preventing swarms method. Both methods as Peter says do not address the real causes of swarming. Clipping wings in my opinion could lose a valuable queen in the grass and a excluder on the main entrace would cause congestion. Also like Dan has said most virgins can go through a excluder anyway. Because Bee-L is a discussion you get all sides to a beekeeping issue. If YOU want to use a excluder and clip wings to prevent swarming I see those as not huge drawbacks to your beekeeping . Maybe not drawbacks at all. I have tried both methods and was not satisfied with the results in my area of the U.S. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa ,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:57:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/13/01 9:26:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kyhoneyman@AOL.COM writes: << Do you have any tobacco growing near you. I have to watch mine as bees will gather pollen from the plants and its really dark(black) and doesn't taste very good. JIM kyhoneyman >> That didn't occur to me, as this was reported to be nice honey. Tobacco is very foul. I'd rather lick an ash tray. Tobacco fields are normally topped (flower removed because they want leaf, not seed) but rarely a field is abandoned or neglected and bees get into it. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Dividing Wajih writes: 1-Do you mean that by smoking the hives you will have all or most of the queens rise up to the upper story and leave the original hive queenless with some brood down? exactly 2-How affected honey production? the purpose was to increase the number of hives. In an area where the honey comes in summer, much later, dividing in early spring doubles the honey production (2 hives instead of 1) 3-Why the bees are shifted to the coast in winter and not kept in the warmer valley in your country. Along the coast there is winter rain and a splendid bulidup period (Jan to April) on wild flowers, eucalyptus, etc. In the desert, nothing going on. 4- My last point which is important , we noticed that the very hot weather in our valley kills most of the mites . Though the hives become weaker , but start to grow healthy in Autumn. Why you don't have the same in your valley. I don't live there anymore. I don't know about mites in the desert, but I have read that they seem to be less trouble where it is very hot, than they are here, for example, where it tends to be damp and cool during summer. PB Ithaca NY U S A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:43:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MattAllan@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mason Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For anyone interested in mason bees, can I recommend the site oxbeeco.com? Regards Matthew Allan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:59:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Dividing Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, This is a very old & primative method. Talked about in very old bee books. In all my years I have only seen the end result one time. The bees were done as Peter says and then I went and looked at the bees (out of curosity) with the beekeeper. About one hive in four was queenright. Most were either queenless or laying workers. In my opinion everything would have to be perfect for the system to have much merit today. In todays beekeeping world each hives well being is important because of the costs of medications and labor involved. Beekeeping practices on large scale are changing from year to year now with all the problems. I would not use the method because (in my opinion) of the real chance of failure. Many hives are simply swarming and not requeening these days and we really don't understand completely why at least I don't. You might experiment with a hive or two but I wouldn't do hundreds like my friend did. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:10:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Resistant Foulbrood in Canada Comments: To: beeman@kingston.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kent & All, Burning is the method of choice and the method I practice myself but I must remind all beekeepers that burning alone did not work in the U.S. in the 1940's when U.S. beekeeping was almost lost to American foulbrood. Maybe we are better informed and burning will work this time around. AFB can spread fast through a apiary and can be hard to detect my inexperianced beekeepers. I have been at bee meetings when the smell of AFB hit my nose. When I looked around a new beekeeper was holding up a frame wanting to know why all his bees were dead. Smell & perforated cells. Dr Larry Conner's bee disease slides show a beautiful frame of brood with *one* cell with AFB. For those having trouble with finding the queen how about finding the AFB cell on a frame covered with bees? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:34:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Mason Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, James wrote; believe the reeds work better but are not as cute in a yard/ garden setting. I have had blackberry canes recommended. Cut them to length and tie a bundle together and put them in a secluded place. I have never used the blackberry canes but will try those if you think they will work. I use the same reeds the USDA in Utah uses. I am new to mason bees so not a expert by any means. I did however start on a rather large scale and have found all the information provided me by the USDA in Utah to be correct. One of my few projects which worked exactly as planned. I however choose to go with the experts instead of *McDonalds Milkshake straws * as recommended many places on the net and 3 1/2 inch holes drilled in blocks which limit reproduction and cause parasite problems when reused. So do you just leave them in the garden? You remove the bees in the reeds/tubes/wood blocks when the ends of the holes are sealed and store below 40F. till the next spring. Takes three days for the bees to emerge at room temperature or normal spring days outside the following spring. The males hatch first. I have had a call from someone with only 1000 strawberry plants in a greenhouse. He has used bumble bees and is thinking of learning about honey bees. Would you commend solitary bees or do we have a problem of timing of flowering and the species we might attract? Solitary bees would work nicely(in my opinion) because you only thaw out the amount needed and can keep bringing out more as needed to extend the season. I have no experiance with mason bees & greenhouses so I really shouldn't comment but those are my thoughts on the subject right or maybe wrong. Would you *ever* use a nuc with an inside and an outside entrance placed at the westerly end (north side)? In the flowering and fruiting season the glass would be open most of the day. I have never used bees to pollinate a greenhouse nor have I ever been asked to provide a nuc or a hive. I better leave the answer to a beekeeper with experience on the subject. Sorry I can't help on the question. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Dividing Hi As Bob correctly pints out, the quick and dirty Imperial Valley divide may leave you with a lot of queenless hives. But no doubt, fewer than you had originally. A slight modification would greatly improve the technique. Order queens and a few days before they arrive, get the queen down to the first story (shake the bees off the combs, or whatever) and put in an excluder between 1 and 2. When the queens arrive, smoke the bees up into the second and move this off to a new stand. Introduce the new queen to this part. The old hive keeps the old queen and most of the old bees. The new hive gets lots of brood, young bees and the new queen, which will be readily accepted by the young bees. PB New York ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:28:35 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ainars Millers Subject: Yugo, Russian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What are Russian and Yugo bees? Are Russians strain of A.m.mellifera or the Far East Bee which has experience of co-existence with varroa? Is Yugo a strain of Carnica? Many thanks in advance. Ainars Millers Ugale, Latvia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:25:37 -0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Resistant Foulbrood in Canada MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Burning is the method of choice and the method I practice myself but I must > remind all beekeepers that burning alone did not work in the U.S. in the > 1940's when U.S. beekeeping was almost lost to American foulbrood. I believe that the reason burning did not work in the U.S. was that it was not practiced universally. We in this country have always tended to be resistant to any legal dictum. I have read many accounts by bee inspectors of coming across unknown apiaries loaded with AFB. All it takes to make burning ineffective is for a significant minority of beekeepers to be either ignorant or uncooperative. > I have been at bee meetings when the smell of AFB hit my nose. > When I looked around a new beekeeper was holding up a frame wanting to know > why all his bees were dead. Smell & perforated cells. This may be true, but illustrates the ignorance of the beekeeper. By the time you have AFB so bad you can smell it from a distance you have had plenty of time to recognize it earlier. These beekeepers mentioned would not have killed their bees, burned their frames, and sterilized anyother equipment earlier. They did not even know what was going on. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:22:19 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yugo, Russian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both Yugo and the so-called Russian bees are strains of carnica. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:03:00 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Green Organization: SF Gate, San Francisco, CA Subject: SF Gate: FARM SCENE: Beekeepers bitter over ant inspections at state borders Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Almond Pollinator Gauntlet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was sent to you by someone who found it on SF Gate. The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/02/14/national0046EST0405.DTL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- February 14, 2001 (AP) FARM SCENE: Beekeepers bitter over ant inspections at state borders KILEY RUSSELL, Associated Press Writer (02-14) 00:46 EST FRESNO, Calif. (AP) -- Add commercial beekeepers and California almond growers to the list of victims stung by the red imported fire ant. With the state's almond bloom in full swing, farmers are desperate to deliver the bee colonies to their orchards, but inspectors in California and Arizona have been stopping truckloads of beehives said to be infested with the dreaded fire ant. Without the bees to pollinate this year's bloom, the trees won't produce any nuts. "I'm sleepless over this. Water problems, power problems and now this," said Cort Blackburn, who grows 2,700 acres of almonds in arid Western Fresno County. Blackburn and dozens of sleep-deprived farmers like him are worrying over the hours and days that pass as thousands of hives are held up or turned away from California and Arizona. Agricultural inspectors in both states have been finding the aggressive, stinging red ants stowed away on shipments from the Southeastern United States and Texas -- areas that account for about a quarter of the bee deliveries to Central Valley farms. "My farm needs 4,000 hives and I've only got 1,500. I need them today," Blackburn said. If the delays continue at the Southwest border crossings for much longer, growers say they won't have enough bee colonies to produce what's otherwise expected to be a large almond crop. Last year's 900 million pound harvest came in at a record $500 million. The state's closest competitor, Spain, grew about 175 million pounds. California farmers use about 1 million bee colonies to pollinate 500,000 acres of almond trees, and half of those colonies are imported from other states. Since just before the almond bloom began in January, about 35 truckloads carrying roughly 20,000 hives have been held up by inspectors in either Arizona or California -- and agricultural officials say eight trucks turned back to Texas, Mississippi or Louisiana. One truck made it through both states to an orchard in Stanislaus County, where local inspectors found fire ants and ordered the entire shipment burned. But farmers and beekeepers say the delays, more than the rejected loads, have them worried. Each hour a shipment is delayed, the chances of hot temperatures killing off thousands of bees grows. Also, growers have just a few weeks of bloom to get the bees into orchards and some beekeepers, wary of border hassles, are sending their insects to other states or simply refusing to ship them at all -- although each truckload rents for an average of about $25,000 a season. "It's costing (beekeepers) a bundle and leaving California almond growers without any bees. It's a major imbroglio," said Kern County bee broker Joe Trainer. During the last two years, agricultural officials in both states have stepped up their efforts to keep the red fire ant out. California went so far as to pay Arizona $350,000 to expand the inspection program on its Eastern border and to buy high-tech imaging equipment and microscopes, said Arizona Department of Agriculture spokeswoman Jill Davis. Arizona, which is free of the ants, set itself up as a regional buffer zone, protecting its Western neighbor from further invasions, Davis said. ^------= On the Net: Arizona Agriculture Department: http://agriculture.state.az.us/ California Agriculture Department: http://www.cdfa.ca.gov/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2001 AP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:45:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: TM resistant AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, all. How to say this without sounding nasty? If TM is used, eventually some AFB will become resistant. Whenever and wherever this happens, those hives will have to be burnt. To avoid this unpleasant situation, burn all AFB hives wherever found. Do I have this straight? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:12:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anonymous Ok Subject: Re: Almost Black Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, you are right in the topping of tabbacobut you need a bud to topand bees will work this.I raise tabbaco and where i have very little trouble withthis thought i would just ask as the honey is dark and tastes bad.Have a bee day JIM kyhoneyman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:06:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TM resistant AFB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What happens when TM resistant hives are treated with Sulfa Drugs? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:19:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM resistant AFB In-Reply-To: <200102141441.JAA05394@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If TM is used, > eventually some AFB will become resistant. Whenever and wherever > this happens, those hives will have to be burnt. To avoid this > unpleasant situation, burn all AFB hives wherever found. Do I have > this straight? Yes, you do, and that sums it up nicely. Whether or not a beekeeper uses drugs as a preventative, if a breakdown is found, it is wise to dispose immediately of any signs of the AFB. That includes all frames that have active cells or scale. Where drugs are not permitted, it is necessary to destroy the whole hive and perhaps even the bees. I won't go into details here. Disposal in either case can be by burning, or where there is enough material to make it worthwhile to store, transport and process, the combs can be rendered for wax -- again depending on local regulations. In areas where drugs are permitted, and if no signs of resistance have previously been found, a beekeeper has the option of treating the hive(s) with OTC and keeping them under observation, preferably after removing all obvious signs of disease. Moving such hives to a 'nurse yard' is traditional, so that they are segregated from the other hives and are sure to be treated and observed on a definite schedule. Usually such hives have cleaned up nicely and after some time are no more likely to break down that others in the outfit. Where drugs are not permitted, the situation is much more grave and more drastic action is necessary. There is a chance that other hives in the apiary are also exposed to an external source of infection and there is no protection. Careful observation and quick action is necessary to save the outfit. If possible any potential source of infection must immediately be found and removed. Both regimes have their advantage and their advocates. Both have their costs and pitfalls. The elimination of disease without drugs is better suited to small geographically isolated areas with little or well controlled migratory beekeeping and a political system that either fosters co-operation or imposes compliance. Drugs are better suited to large countries with a tendency to civil disobedience and widespread uncontrolled movement. In either case, the destruction of infected matter is wise. However, with drugs, rehabilitation and continued use of hives that have experienced AFB or are exposed chronically to an environment with potential AFB is possible. Drug resistance in AFB is a new phenomenon and although there is widespread speculation, and although that speculation is repeated as fact by those who should know better, we really know nothing about what is going on. We are only now embarking on a search to find out if resistance is something that is likely to be generated in any outfit using drugs (history seems to indicate the contrary) or simply a case of a rare mutation being spread around. Hopefully we know more soon. In the meantime, look for AFB and destroy all signs of it according to your local recommendations as soon as you find it. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:22:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: TM resistant AFB In-Reply-To: <200102141508.KAA07132@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What happens when TM resistant hives are treated with Sulfa Drugs? AFAIK, sulpha should work on OTC resistant AFB since apparently the mechanism of resistance should be different. This could be an option for hives that do not produce food. Sulpha was the best drug we ever did not have. (It was never 'approved', since, in those days there was not the regulation we have now). allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:12:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Almond Pollination: One load burned, more parked in the hot sun dying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/02/14/nation al0046EST0405.DTL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:33:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores On Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:44:16 +1300, Cliff Van Eaton wrote: (The article is available in full at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911C&L=bee-l&P=R1868 ) > I can assure readers that the ability of bleach > (sodium hypochlorite) to kill AFB spores is not an urban legend. > "Sodium hypochlorite is a commonly used sterilising agent, and is > one of the few disinfectants that is effective against AFB spores. > Sodium hypochlorite is the active ingredient in household bleach, > and is present in such products at about 3% concentration. Research > conducted at Ruakura has shown that concentrations of 0.5% sodium > hypochlorite in water will kill all AFB spores in 20 minutes. Has anyone been following this up? Has anyone been using bleach? Any comments on the condition of the combs after? Any need to rinse? What do the bees think about this? allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:50:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Tm resistant AFB What are people doing with infected pierco frames. Not burning I hope. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:46:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, We have been using the bleach solution in two ways this winter . I am using the solution on dysentery stains on dead outs which I have done before with excellent results. My bees were treated with Fumidil B so I am surprised to see the dysentery problems but believe the dysentery was caused by long periods of confinement and not by Nosema. Not wanting to risk nosema I clean with the solution of bleach. I am not rinsing and using the same solution I would to disinfect extractors etc.. One of my beekeeping friends which had the AFB problem I wrote about in spring posts has been washing down boxes, lids and bottoms with the bleach solution instead of burning or scorching. In a unheated area the solution stays wet for much longer than the twenty minutes required BUT does it penetrate enough? I don't believe he is reusing any of the frames but four of the area beekeepers are meeting tomorrow at a restaurant to discuss beekeeping issues and I will find out for you. We won't know till late spring if the bleach solution worked for AFB reinfection. Since we don't have any treatment for AFB to use we should see if the bleach worked pretty fast. Any comments on the condition of the combs after? I don't know if he is doing combs. I will make a point of finding out tomorrow and get back to you. Any need to rinse? I don't believe he is but will find out. I believe the bleach solution disapates after awhile on woodenware but will find out. What do the bees think about this? I have never had a problem with areas I have disenfected but have never done wax frames. I have always burned and scorched in my operation. I hope the bleach solution works because I believe I might have done the original Bee-L post about using bleach when I came across the fact doing other research. I don't really care about the looks of scorched equipment in a operation but when selling bee equipment many beekeepers will not buy ANY bee equipment out of a outfit when they see one piece with tell tale burn marks. On the other hand ( I like to always show both sides of the issue) knowledgeable beekeepers see that the beekeeper saw the problem and solved the problem. Burned the frames and scorched the equipment. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:42:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > What happens when TM resistant hives are treated with Sulfa Drugs? >From memory (always a dangerous thing), sulfa is VERY prone to long lived residuals in honey. As far as a treatment fo Panaebacillus larvae, it is purpoted to be highly effective. I don't know if recent studies have been done with sulfa and TM resistant bacteria. Last time I heard anyone speak on the topic was Dr. Shimanuki last May. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The actual treatment is one pound lye to ten gallons of water and boil the woodenware for twenty minutes. This is a dangerous process, by the way. To do less only invites continued infection. Also, nosema is what is being treated with Fumidil-B/fumagillin. Dysentary is often confused with nosema and vice versa, but they are different. So you can treat with fumidil and still get dysentary. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:20:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores In-Reply-To: <200102141753.MAA15192@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of my beekeeping friends which had the AFB problem I wrote about in > spring posts has been washing down boxes, lids and bottoms with the bleach > solution instead of burning or scorching. In a unheated area the solution > stays wet for much longer than the twenty minutes required BUT does it > penetrate enough? That is what I am wondering. Seems to me that contact with sodium hypochlorite is not doing the job, but rather the chlorine gas which is released. If so, then we basically are dealing with fumigation, not wetting, and have to ask how well chlorine penetrates propolis and wax. I notice that the article at http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911C&L=bee-l&P=R1868 says that 0.5% solution does the trick. I quote: > Research conducted at Ruakura has shown that concentrations of 0.5% > sodium hypochlorite in water will kill all AFB spores in 20 minutes. As bleach is purchased here in Canada at almost any grocery store, the concentration is 5.25%, so the article is talking about ordinary bleach cut 10:1 with water. Hmmmm. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:43:46 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Post Subject: Re: Question of any commercial beekeepers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "David L. Green" wrote: > In a message dated 1/27/01 5:06:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, MORRISTH@AOL.COM > writes: > > << Just out of curiousity, I was wondering how many hives one would need to > make > a living full time (and what you consider an adequate living amount) as a > beekeeper? I recognize that this may be a difficult question. There are > several hive products that can be sold. Im just curious more than anything. > >> > > I don't know exactly where to look, but the pencil pushers at the > extension offices love to do model budgets, and somewhere there must be > floating around some of these for honey production, at least. I don't know > how realistic these are, because there are so many variables and I've never > followed conventional paths anyway. I prefer to go broke my own way. Sorry for the late reply: An Economic Evaluation of Alternative Management Practices and Enterprise Structures in the Australian Beekeeping Industry by Roderic A Gill of 1989 (Dept of Ag. Econ & Bus Mngmt, Univ of New England, Arimdale, N.S.W.) has many tables and graphs whereby you could interpolate your exact position. It will provide margin percentages for your placing, etc. It provides lists of assets required, marketing levels and overheads and expenses. Type some of these into spreadsheets, up them to current values and make your decision. Greetings Robert Post PS. Honey NEVER makes a profit as per this book! But then what were they selling it at? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:59:25 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > That is what I am wondering. Seems to me that contact with > sodium hypochlorite > is not doing the job, but rather the chlorine gas which is > released. Dr Goodwin's findings re: efficacy of bleaching solutions to disinfect equipment that has been exposed to AFB is specific to *contact activity* with the solution. Accordingly, he always makes a warning/disclaimer relating to the need for the items to be already clean for the most part of wax and propolis. Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz Tauranga, NZ (east coast of North Island) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:12:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, The bleach sold in the U.S. is also 5.25% Sodium Hypochorite. I never thought about the killing being possibly done by the release of chlorine gas. If you are correct then you are right the spores are killed by fumigation. If you are not then they are in fact killed by contact which is my interpertation of the test results. Each hive infected with AFB is different. I have watched inspectors burn equipment which I thought could have been salvaged by scorching and then only recommend Terramycin for others I though should have been burned. Most foulbrood is found in brood frames. It is my opinion that most of the chances of AFB comes from the area of frames. I have always burned complete hives or scorched hive parts just to be safe. Most foulbrood is confined to the infected hive in the early stages. Once the hive has been heavily infected died and has been robbed out all hives in flying distance are at risk. If the hive belongs to a hobby beekeeper which has lost interest, bees will return to the deadout and bring spores back for many years. Bees seem facinated with going in old dead hives and looking around. I have found several old apiaries full of old deadouts with AFB. I have had to myself destroy many of these hives. Even had trouble with the owners over the destruction of the worthless hives and had to call the state inspector to get the hives taken care of. Are some of our AFB problems comming from old not taken careof deadouts full of AFB spores being robbed out by our bees. We all know that there are hundreds if not thousands of varroa killed deadouts sitting in backyards across the U.S. and other countries. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Bleach and Spores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tried using Uncut Bleach on ten sheets of Perico foundation wax worm cleaned, soaked for one week +, rinsed dried and put in new frames, caught a swarm and let them build up on the honey flow, checked the brood patern for a queen, the hive had AFB the bleach seems to be waste of time, what works for me on used plastic foundation is drain cleaner as that disolves all the stuff left over from the wax worms. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper Carencro LA 1000+ Hives ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:23:00 +1200 Reply-To: bobhog@pin.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pav Organization: BombusMaximus Subject: Re: Bleach and AFB spores Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all My understanding of the research here in NZ (Ruakura) regarding bleach killing AFB was that they were NOT advocating its use for sterilising woodenware, but rather for hive-tools, excluders etc, and that they had to be impeccably CLEAN to begin with. Sodium hypochlorite only kills the spores it comes in contact with (to my understanding), so if you still have bits of wax or propolis on the item to be sterilised, it won't kill the AFB sealed (for now) within/beneath. First you must clean the item (boiling, water-blasting, whatever works depending on the item in question), then you can sterilise it. Perhaps this method would allow for re-use of 1-piece plastic combs, after first water-blasting them clean? I don't know that i would rely on bleach to penetrate into wood well enough to use this method for re- using AFB wood-ware, but if you have been handling known AFB hives, then giving your hivetool, gloves, bee-suit etc a wash in sodium hypochlorite lowers the probability of you spreading it to the next hive you work. Woodware can be paraffin dipped, or burnt. -Pav At 14/02/01 12:20:00, Allen wrote: >Seems to me that contact with sodium hypochlorite >is not doing the job, but rather the chlorine gas which is released. If so, >then we basically are dealing with fumigation, not wetting, and have to ask how >well chlorine penetrates propolis and wax. I notice that the article at >http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9911C&L=bee-l&P=R1868 >says that 0.5% solution does the trick. > >I quote: >> Research conducted at Ruakura has shown that concentrations of 0.5% >> sodium hypochlorite in water will kill all AFB spores in 20 minutes. > __________________________________ (\ Pav BobHog@pin.co.nz {|||8- Ahaura, New Zealand (/ BombusMaximus@yahoo.com