From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:45 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDjs18787 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:45 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDfJ12718 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDfJ12718@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0103A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 125466 Lines: 2731 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:51:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's part of a recent exchange on sci.agriculture.beekeeping allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fischer" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 5:27 AM Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick > Mark said: > > > I have just received my sample of Bee-Quick from Dadant's, > > and it smells to me like it is mostly benzaldehyde. > > There is no benzaldehyde in Bee-Quick. > > But thanks for the complement. We worked hard to make > it smell "familiar" to experienced beekeepers. > > > I was somewhat disappointed in this, since Bee-Go is > > superior to benzaldehyde. > > If you try it, you will find that Bee-Quick is superior to > both of the others at all temperature ranges, and works far > below the useful temp range of the others. You can read all > about it at http://www.bee-quick.com > > > Furthermore, I did not find the odor of Bee-Quick to > > be an improvement over Bee-Go or benzaldehyde. > > Any comments > > If your nose cannot detect much difference between > Bee-Quick and benzaldehyde, then no one would expect > you to be able to detect any "improvement". > Of the over 700 free samples handed out in 2001, > you are the first to offer this view. All other > opinions have been very positive. > > But Bee-Go??? We have yet to meet anyone who could name > ANYTHING that smelled worse than Bee-Go! For example, > here is the opinion of Dr. James Tew of Ohio State about > the smell of Bee-Go (from Bee Culture, Oct 2000, full text > at http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/00oct/00oct5.html) > > "The bouquet of this repellent is similar to that of > human infant up-chuck and seems to have a half-life > of several thousand years. Bees are repelled by the > smell. I am repelled by the smell. Neighbors are > repelled by the smell... For odiferous reasons, > don't get this chemical on you. Don't put Bee-Go > containers in your truck cab. Don't store it inside > a building you care about." > > But, your own sense of smell is not something you > can change, so ignoring personal "odor" preferences, > all I can offer is: > > a) Bee-Quick does not require expensive Haz-Mat > shipping fees. The other two do. > > b) Unlike the other two, Bee-Quick is non-toxic. > No gloves or goggles required. > > c) You can test for yourself which "works better". > > d) Bee-Quick washes off with water. Bee-Go simply > won't wash off! (Married? Wanna STAY married?) > > e) If you are not completely satisfied, return it > for a full refund, just like the label says. > (But, wait... yours was a FREE sample.) > > f) Why don't you try it in the apiary before > you decide? > > Gosh, don't we get any points for handing out free > samples so that you can make up your mind at > OUR expense? Try getting free samples from "the > other guys"! > > jim > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:06:16 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Considering trying interior hive. In-Reply-To: <200102281707.MAA25767@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In parts of South Africa due to vandalism some beekeepers keep their hives in containers. The containers are ventilated from below and above and the hive bodies stand on shelves against the containers walls with openings to the outsides, which are so designed that the bees travel straight into the hive and are not able to fly around inside the containers. Possible problems may arise with mating flight of queens returning to the wrong entrance(all entrances are similar). Also hive inspections and honey removal- I'm not sure how they do it but I would imagine they would have to remove the hive from the container, work outside and replace it afterwards. If you follow the route of your bees travelling directly from outside into their hive without flying around the shed you will still be able to use your shed for whatever with minimal disturbance of the bees. Mel -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Joan Schavee Sent: 28 February 2001 01:09 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Condsidering trying interior hive. Has anyone experience with maintaining hives from within a shed, garage, barn. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:01:27 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wajih daour Subject: Supeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Beekeepers Your advise is requested. Can I add a FOUNDATION super between the two brood chambers which are = now filled with bees and brood down and up. I have no more comb frames. Knowing that our main honey flow starts in = two weeks time, the bees may start to build queen cells for swarming. Thanks for the advise. Wajih Daour ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:18:37 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination and washed semen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all > Can anyone help me with perhaps articles, descriptions of the techniques? > Please send it directly to me > hkroese@hetnet.nl This subject has wider interest than you may think...Please send information via the list, so we may all share it! Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:47:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination and washed semen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > "Insemination and washed semen techniques." ... > is possible, and a lot quicker to wash of the semen from the bulbus. How does > this work, probably with saline and then centrifuge to split the semen and the > saline solution? You've pretty much hit the nail on the hear. I was just reading about this technique in _Breeding_Super_Bees_ by Steve Taber. It's also recommended as a reliable method to separate semen from mucous. Book's at home, I'm in the office. I've found _Breeding_Super_Bees_ to be a bit of a tease. There's a lot of claims that you can do this and that, but not a lot of specific "how tos" explaining how you can do this and that. However, all the claims are fully referenced. If the details are skimpy on washed semen techniques, there will be plenty of references for more details. Aaron Morris - thinking BEE-L is great, but books are even better! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:07:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In the past few days, all responses to one particular questions have not been distributed to the list because the responses (all three of which were only a few lines) quoted the entirety of the original question (which was a full page). Reposting previously posted material clogs up the BEE-L archives, wastes disk space and results is less efficient archive searches. Taken from the "Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions", the very first guideline states: 1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice. The full guidelines for BEE-L posting can be read at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/guidelines.htm Aaron Morris - thinking you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him follow the guidelines. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:44:52 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wajih asks about queens produced in spring, summer, and fall. He comments that spring produced queens are very likely, in Jordan, to swarm the following spring. One of the outstanding papers I have read was the results of a study in Israel that documented that queens that have gone through a full four seasons are far more likely to swarm than younger queens. That is also my observation. If anyone is interested, I will try to find the Israel study and send it on. He also comments about a reasonable amount of failure with queens produced under hot summer conditions. I could not agree more. Try Canadian queens, that are, of course, produced in more reasonable summer weather. They cost more, but are worth the price! Personally, I do not see any advantage to using fall-produced queens, compared with those produced in June/July in Canada. As the fall-produced queens are slightly harder to handle, I plan on sticking with the summer Canadian queens. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick In-Reply-To: <200103011152.GAA23398@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I have just received my sample of Bee-Quick from Dadant's, > > > and it smells to me like it is mostly benzaldehyde. > > > > There is no benzaldehyde in Bee-Quick... I thought I should say a bit more about this, since there are other relevant posts on s.a.b. and also some personal correspondence that most BEE-L readers will likely never see. James assured us that there is no benzaldehyde in Bee-Quick and that it will not leave _any_ residues. Our co-op (Alberta Honey producers Co-op Ltd.)ran the product through the lab and it spiked just like benzaldehyde. AFAIK, they just tested the raw product, not honey that had been removed using it. The point is that whether Bee-Quick contains benzaldehyde or not, and whether benzaldehyde is a safe food ingredient or not, some foreign (and maybe domestic) buyers reject any product with benzaldehyde showing in test samples because benzaldehyde is not an approved repellent in some countries. This whole trace residue thing is complex, largely irrational and often political -- often amounting to a non-tariff barrier or an excuse to grind the price. Where these increasingly sensitive tests will eventually lead, I have no idea. What beekeepers need to know is that Bee-Quick is a proprietary formula -- we are not told the ingredients -- that appears to be, or mimic, benzaldehyde in tests. Prospective users need to assure themselves that use will not lead to rejection of their product by their customers. I am very pleased to see someone put a new product on the market and if it is effective as claimed, it could be a real boon. Nonetheless, the supplier, customers and regulatory personnel need to explicitly work out its acceptability if found in honey before commercial honey producers can use it without some concern. Additionally some proof must be provided to back up the claim that _no_ residues occur. A few years ago, tests were only capable of finding one ppm. Now several ppb show up. Tests are almost 1,000 X more sensitive. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I got a garage door opener. It can't close. Just open. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:25:52 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One reader pointed out that my recent note could be interpreted to read that I am no longer going to use New World Carnolian queens. Good point, BUT NOT TRUE. My spring queens, now on order and due here in 6 weeks, will be 100% NWC. This is a great strain and I am committed to it. However, my introduction losses from those raised in the 120 degree California summer (50 C) have just been too great, so I am going with the Canadian "Italian/Carnolians" for summer queens. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: queens Comments: To: lloydspear@email.msn.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: so I am going with the Canadian "Italian/Carnolians" > for summer queens Who sells the Canadian Carnolians? I did get my C's from Strachen in Cal. and they did well in Maine, but that was over five years ago and by now they are a bit of whatever is in the area. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:27:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Cannaday Subject: Hive Beetles I have a delicate question that I would like to query all. I have recently placed an order for bees in the mid part of Alabama. Before I ordered them I asked the owner if there were any problems with Hive Beatles and was told not yet. Well, I spoke with some folks who told me that if I ordered them that I might as well have the Bee inspector standing by as they didn't think I should do so. I guess at this point I was being made feel like if I bought them in I was going to be the ass end of a jackass. Well, to make a story longer, the person I purchased them from has already charged them to my VISA and I won't see the bees until April sometime. I particularly don't want to hear I told you so and be blamed for infesting the area with beetles. So the question is... what chances are there that I will get a package for of beetles?? If the they were shipped with Checkmite+ I would expect less chance of getting them however, what real effect will a strip have on a package during the short period they are packaged? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:56:33 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Beetles At 10:27 AM 3/1/01, you wrote: the question is... what chances are there that I will get a package for of beetles?? If the they were shipped with Checkmite+ I would expect less chance of getting them however, what real effect will a strip have on a package during the short period they are packaged? If this was really a great threat, do you think they would be *allowed* to ship them to you? I don't think these beetles do that well outside of the warm states, anyway. Where do you live? Checkmite should take out the beetles in transit. If you are worried put another strip in when you get the package and leave it there for 6 weeks. PS Any company that uses VISA/MC can credit your card if you change your mind about a purchase ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Hive Beetles In-Reply-To: <200103011532.KAA00385@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I particularly don't want to hear I told you so and be blamed for infesting > the area with beetles. You don't say what area, so who can say? If you are in the north, even if adult beetles do arrive with the packages, chances are they will not reproduce successfully enough to be a big problem, even though the adults do live a long time -- over a year in some cases. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I went to the bank and asked to borrow a cup of money. They said, "What for?" I said, "I'm going to buy some sugar." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:56:00 -0700, Allen Dick wrote: > I've been thinking about the new oxytetracycline resistant ABF > that has suddenly been appearing in numerous... " I am feeling vindicated. Over a year ago, I wrote the above article on BEE-L, warning about SAFB. At that time we weren't hearing much about it, but I guessed that it would be big news shortly. When speculating on possible causes of the outbreaks that were suddenly appearing all over North America, my guess was that there might have been only one original mutation or source of the variant strain. I predicted that all outbreaks would be proven to be closely related and spread by international trade -- if anyone cared or dared to question the party line..." The rest of this article is at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/021501.htm#vindicated allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I have an answering machine in my car. It says, "I'm home now. But leave a message and I'll call when I'm out." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:53:38 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: USDA Certified Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aloha Bee-L members Can anyone provide information about the meeting being held next week Monday or Tuesday in Los Angles about the USDA having standards for Certified Organic Honey production and packaging? It is my understanding that at the moment the USDA has choosen not to develope guidelines for honey. Thanks Walter Patton Beekeeper - Hawaii Tourguide Hawaiian Honey House 100 % Hawaii Honey A Hawaii Beekeepers Bed and Breakfast # 1 Mukai Pl., P.O. Box 430 Papaikou, HI 96781 Ph./Fax. 1-808-964-5401 e-mail HiHoney@HawaiiHoney.Com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:01:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" In an attempt to keep the BEE-L archives complete, I'm posting a portion of what Allen wrote in his diary to BEE-L. For the rest of his discussion and references to pertinent BEE-L postings, visit the URL in Allen's previous post. "At the Alberta Beekeepers Association's disease update meeting this week, Lawrence Cutts was scheduled to speak, but, personal matters intervened and Dave Westerfeld came in his place. I'd met him the first night in San Diego and Aaron and I had a beer with him at the time. I was impressed then and am even more so now. Dave is a fascinating, enthusiastic, open (and rambling) speaker. I greatly enjoyed his straight from the shoulder style and wide range of topics. In one of Dave's talks, he mentioned discovering resistant AFB early on in Florida and, looking around, found empty Argentine honey drums stacked nearby. I gather that the 17 inspectors in Fla are pretty thorough and honey samples were taken from the residue left in the drums. It was analysed for AFB and guess what? It turned out that -- not only was there AFB in the honey in the drums -- but the AFB they found was OTC resistant! In case anyone wants to read the original discussion on BEE-L, here are the links." Actually, I don't see that this confirms that ALL OTC resistant AFB originated in Argentina. That OTC resistent AFB was verified to exist in honey that came from Argentina verifies that there is OTC resistent AFB in Argentina. It does not prove that OTC resistant AFB in Alberta originated in Argentina, neither does it prove the OTC resistant AFB in Montana originated in Argentina. Short of DNA analysis, I'm not sure "SAFB" can be proven. And even then, OJ Simpson will be a free man. Proof seems moot, other than possible containment. What are we gonna do about it is what I want to know. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:00:09 -0700 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: Standards for Organic Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's some info in reply to Walter's question. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Birkey" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: Standards for Organic Honey Update on Standards for Organic Honey --------- From: "deelusbybeekeeper" Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:15:30 -0800 To: Subject: Standards for Organic Honey Hi to all on Biological Beekeeping Reference Dec 21, 2000, 1:48 PM Message #36 titled "Standards". The following parts are now re-referenced: As much of the upcoming meetings on the subjects covered will pertain to quality control and honey standards with a federal register still to be sent out for the beekeeping industry for comments as to Organic Honey, we will need to keep on top of issues here in the US. Right now we have a new discussion list up and running and are setting parameters on what is biological beekeeping. We will probably have to go further and set parameters as to organic honey and what it involves also. I do not believe that beekeepers and associations not actually doing the work should be setting standards for us now into it to follow later. We should be the ones doing that. Will Keep you all posted. CURRENT UPDATED REPLY: The National Organic Program on proposed standards for honey is going forward again. However, there is urgency to this post as a meeting has been set for March 6 & 7 -- for when public hearing will be held on the program during a meeting of the Natioal Organics Standards Board (NOSB). Any interested party can speak, and some of you may want to, so I figured I make this post to let you all know what is happening. The only ketch is on anything said you need to have 20 copies made in print, to hand out to the board members present after you are done talking. Buddy Ashurst, president of the National Honey Packers and Dealers Association, will be representing the honey industry there formally. Now before hand I want you all to know that many beekeepers and honey packers are saying -- honey cannot be organic! You cannot control where the bees fly! Yet a decision on our future as an industry is pending. We know there exists a small but dedicated segment of U.S. beekeepers (and elsewhere) either actively certified organic or considering trying to get there with their beekeeping operations. Many of you are talking here in this group for example. If a decision is made with the NOSB that honey cannot be organic, after August 2002, no honey can be labeled as such in the U.S., regardless of source. Consequently, we all need to be aware of what is happening, and I certainly will try to keep everyone posted. Further I certainly don't want the standards to be set and decided, by someone else, with no input from beekeepers participating here. The meeting will be held at the Embassy Suites Hotel, 7762 Beach Boulevard, Buena Park, CA, Phone: (714) 739-5600. For reference/agenda: use NOSB 0301.doc I will try to keep you all posted on what takes place. For those of you that might want to attend and talk, special rates are available at the hotel. Also the following Tentative Agenda is posted for your continued following: April 2001 --The Livestock Committee's proposed standards for beekeeping will be ready for comment (probably public). I will definitely keep you posted as the Livestock Committee has jurisdiction over us on the NOSB. June 2001 Livestock proposes this draft to NOSB, who reviews and seeks recommendation then. Fall 2001 Livestock Committee proposed final rule for public comment. Feb 2002 All organic certifying agencies must be certified by the USDA, whether private or state agencies. Also international agencies must also be certified. (There is a 3-step process for international agencies). June 2002 National Organic Program final rules in place unless those saying it cannot be done win! August 2002 No food product can be labeled "Organic" in the US without bearing the official USDA -- NOP seal. So to end, since the Livestock Committee has jurisdiction over the beekeeping industry and they are almost finished with their first draft of the beekeeping standard, which they have now started writing for us, we need to participate (which I will be doing in hot correspondence over coming months besides keeping everyone posted) at these meetings or give input in lieu thereof. Especially, since so many others, in our own industry, seem to think it cannot be done, as honey cannot be organic, because of so many various treatments for so long. I and others must keep the door open so others can follow down the path to clean honey. Our future is not forever treatments, that is why we are on this list discussing. Regards to all Dee A. Lusby Tucson, Arizona USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:00:09 -0000 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: VITAMIX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone on the List come across a product - a bee feed, I believe - called VITAMIX? Can anyone tell me what it is and/or who produces it? Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7NE UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 http://www.vita-europe.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:09:30 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Hive Beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/1/01 10:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, BeeFarmer@HOMESTEAD.COM writes: << what real effect will a strip have on a package during the short period they are packaged? >> The chance is very slim. If a beetle touches the strip, it dies in a couple minutes. I have watched them do it. It's a moot point anyway. The beetles have spread rapidly in the southern USA. If you live here, and you don't have them now, you will have them soon. They are also present in the North, but don't seem to be any problem, except for supers brought in and not extracted within a few days. The beetles can fly many miles, and they are reputed to travel easily with loads of fruit, such as cantaloupe. Quarantines and inspections aren't going to stop something that moves so easily. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:13:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: SAFB is a New and Distinct Contagious Disease In-Reply-To: <200103011805.NAA06694@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, I don't see that this confirms that ALL OTC resistant AFB > originated in Argentina... Nope, but it is a step in that direction. Is it just coincidence that the outfits that first came down with SAFB were near plants that pack Argentine honey? Once the spores are distributed in an area, it takes several years for them to predominate. The problem is that it takes time for beekeepers to realise that the disease is a new variant of an old scourge. By then it is out of control. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- A beautiful woman moved in next door. So I went over and returned a cup of sugar. "You didn't borrow this." "I will." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:27:46 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst I object to the following statement from a previous post: "Now before hand I want you all to know that many beekeepers and honey packers are saying -- honey cannot be organic! You cannot control where the bees fly! " I have never heard of a *beekeeper* making this argument. Quite the contrary, I think the majority of beekeepers would be willing to have their practices scrutinized but the notion that organic honey is that which comes from only wild plants is not a beekeeper's notion. It comes from the people who certify organic products, and I think it is based on flawed reasoning. Has anyone ever shown that honey from cultivated crops contains detectable pesticide residues? PB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:12:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Comments: To: Peter Borst In-Reply-To: <200103012031.PAA12043@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > "Now before hand I want you all to know that many beekeepers and > honey packers are saying -- honey cannot be organic! You cannot > control where the bees fly! " > > I have never heard of a *beekeeper* making this argument. Let me be the first. Setting aside my objections to the word 'organic' used in this way, and accepting for a moment the ideas behind the movement, let me point out that there is no way to control where bees pick up water, and no way to control what they collect for pollen or propolis. Even assuming that an area the size of the potential foraging district of a beehive can be claimed to be 'organic', no one can assure us that all the things that hold water or make dust in that area will be also 'organic'. Bees will gather anything they can find that appeals to them. I truly hope we are not going to resurrect this topic, unless we have new information, not just opinion, since it has been thrashed to death here in the past. The discussion generated much more heat than light since the topic has much more in common with religion than science. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I Xeroxed my watch. Now I have time to spare. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:34:13 -0500 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: pesticides in honey Four honey samples were analyzed, one each from Armada, Michigan; Phoenix, Arizona; Braunschweig, Germany; and Mouchard, France. The respective honey types were: wildflower (pH value:3.63), mesquite (pH value:3.42), pine forest (pH value:4.44)and lavender (pH value:3.38). Each honey sample was analyzed for a variety of possible pesticide contaminants by means of GC/MS [gas chromatography mass spectrometry]. In addition, a detailed sugar profile was determined for two of the samples using LC/MS [liquid chromatography mass spectrometry]. The tests were performed by Shrader Laboratories, 3814 Vinewood, Detroit, MI 48208 . Conclusions from the analyses show no detectable pesticide contamination for any sample. The list of materials tested for is extensive, and includes among others, aldrin, lindane, chlordane, dieldrin, endosulfan, endrin, toxaphene, heptachlor, and methoxychlor. http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~mts/apishtm/apis_2000/apjul_2000.htm#2 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:17:18 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: peter dillon Subject: Bee development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst having a quiet moment I started to wonder about Queen development in Queen cells and why they were produced near to the vertical in relation to gravity. - any comments? Moving on I started wondering why if worker brood/ drone brood are able to develop in a normal way whilst in the horizontal position, is it damaging for developing queens to be in this plane. Again any thoughts? As far as I am aware it is only possible to transport "ripe" queen cells without having to ensure against shock and movement from the "vertical" Peter To be found resting between Tours and Limoges and 50 km to the east of Poitiers. France. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:00:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Beetles Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, If this was really a great threat, do you think they would be *allowed* to ship them to you? Yes! No one is checking breeders to a great degree and there is no quarentine. I got tracheal mites with queens from Texas in the late 80's. Varroa was spread at first by infested packages. The beekeeper which first found varroa had sent out over 3,000 packages from his yards. Checkmite should take out the beetles in transit. Yea right! If you are worried put another strip in when you get the package and leave it there for 6 weeks. Many Florida beekeepers report the small hive beetle leaves the hive to multiply and then returns to later infest weak hives and multiply on a larger scale. Beekeepers in Florida report SMH in almost all hives but infestations can be overwelming overnight. Researchers are still trying to get a handle on all aspects of the SHB. All beekeepers I talk to say the SMH beetle lives outside the hive and returns to infest weak hives rsearchers are divided on this point). We still are in a learning stage with SHB. In my opinion we are going to have to learn to live with SHB as attempts at eradication have proved fruitless. The main problems have been in warm areas so far so maybe the cold areas won't be affected. I am still working on my trap idea I posted a few months ago. I put SHB in the same class as Africanized bees if you live in the north. Not a big deal. Varroa resistant to Fluvalinate & Coumaphos is a big deal. Whole outfits are being wiped out because of fluvalinate resistant varroa. Those beekeepers should have been testing. By the time they get ready to step up to Coumaphos we are going to see the same problem with Coumaphos Coumaphos has been in use allready in Florida for four years. Beekeepers are going to have to LEARN to test for varroa. Grandfathers method of keeping bees won't work today in the beekeeping industry! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri I want to die peasefully in my sleep like my grandfather... Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick and Kathy Subject: Re: Bee development MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > peter dillon wondered about Queen development in Queen cells and why they were produced near to the > vertical in relation to gravity. > and stated: As far as I am aware it is only possible to transport "ripe" queen cells without having to > ensure > against shock and movement from the "vertical" Peter, It is my understanding that the primary reason for Queens being reared in the "vertical" position is simply space available in the comb. If queens were reared in a horizontal position, they would fill the bee space in the protion of comb they were being reared. Also, I'm aware that the last piece of development in all honeybees in the inflation of their wings. Worker and drone brood, as well as queens, will develop wingless if jostled during the last days of development Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:53:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Robert J. Bassett" Subject: Re: On Hive Beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/1/2001 10:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, BeeFarmer@HOMESTEAD.COM writes: << I particularly don't want to hear I told you so and be blamed for infesting the area with beetles. So the question is... what chances are there that I will get a package for of beetles?? >> If you are going to buy bees from an area which has beetles, you will probably get the bug, eventually. I can't imagine inspecting a package of bees, visually and being assured that you are free of infestation. I wouldn't believe anyone who says they can do that. The beetles are small and their size varies. They are a bit smaller than our "Lady Bug" beetles and are black to dark brown, in color. They can hide in a crack about 1/16" wide. They hide as the first order of business, when you open a hive. I don't think you could spot one in a package, very easily. They can be quite numerous and boil out the top of the hive when it is opened. They get into your clothes when you are working the bees. They don't appear to give a strong colony a hard time, but they can make a real mess out of a weak colony. They will mess up your supers of honey waiting to be extracted, if you don't get to it pretty quick. You just cannot store supers of honey in beetle country. You must extract your honey as soon as you can. 5 to 6 days of storage and you may be in real trouble. They can go through the destructive larvae stage equally well in pure honey combs but they seem to prefer the brood chamber. I live in central Florida. I moved my hives last year into an orange grove about 40 miles away, to catch the citrus flow. A commercial beekeeper from New York moved his bees into the same grove about a week after I did. I came home with my 4 hives infested with beetles. I am sure the New York beekeeper helped me out with my infestation. I don't know where he had had his bees, prior to putting them in the grove, but I am sure he is spreading the beetle wherever he goes. I have been observing the beetles' activities since that time. I have a pretty good idea, having seen the Beetles multiply and observing their life cycles, that they are quite capable of overwintering in northern climates. They are tough and they can go through all their life cycles (egg, larvae, pupae, adult) inside the hive. I believe we will all be having trouble with them, in time. The best you can do is try to keep them away from your hives as long as you can. When you get them, I feel you will not be able to get rid of them as long as you have bees in the area. If we are going to use chemical control, we will eventually raise 'super beetles', just like we have done with the mites. I am encouraged by some physical control methods I have been working on for these critters. I will share what I learn in a later post. I will say that I keep the hives strong and have no noticeable loss of hive vigor or activity, with the beetles now. I have been told that if you move your hives to catch the flows, the beetles will not be a noticeable problem for you. We still have a lot to learn. I better get back to it. Bob Bassett - Beetle Rancher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:16:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: Hive Beetles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have a delicate question that I would like to query all. I have recently > placed an order for bees in the mid part of Alabama. Before I ordered them > I asked the owner if there were any problems with Hive Beatles and was told > not yet. While there are a number of excellent, competent breeders in Alabama, be aware that Alabama does not have a State Apiary inspection program. The last I had heard, their program had been discontinued. I have a package ordered for this Spring from an Alabama breeder but know him and know his credentials. While no inspection program is a safeguard by itself, it does provide a level of consistency to pest and disease monitoring and management. Just one more consideration when searching for a supplier. Thoughts? Ken Haller apism@home.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:28:25 -0500 Reply-To: beeman@kingston.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: kent stienburg Subject: Re: queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote > Who sells the Canadian Carnolians? > I did get my C's from Strachen in Cal. and they did well in Maine, but that was over > five years ago and by now they are a bit of whatever is in the area. Hi Bill, I buy my Carnies from Neil Orr in Trenton Ontario. He has Australian early then his own by about June. I believe he has his breeders tested in The University of Guelph for T-mite resistance. Kent Stienburg Ontario, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:54:12 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in total agreement with Allen Dick in his remarks about organic honey. Organic honey is an impossible myth. I am tired of hearing about this "trip to the stars" Better that beekeepers utilize proven methods of keeping their bees alive than groping around for something to sell to the nature enthusiasts. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:28:12 +0800 Reply-To: ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: On Hive Beetles Comments: cc: Joy Magsaysay Ira In-Reply-To: <200103020233.VAA21959@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Florida Beekeepers, My brother in law, Greg Ira, who is involved in the Florida State National Park System, just moved into his new home in Tallahasee. Do you know of a reliable source of packages and new equipment for him? I recommended a 3 pound package with a queen, plus another without a queen as a booster. According to him, the magnolias, cherry trees and dogwood is in bloom around his house. And, his lawn id suted with a yellow pollen each morning, which he suspects is pine(?) pollen. He knows the ropes from keeping one colony here in the Philippines. Thanks in advance. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS KM. 47, Aguinaldo Highway, Lalaan 1 Silang, Cavite joel@ilogmaria.com 046 - 865 - 0018 (digitel landline) 0917 - 502 - 7538 (Joel's globe cell phone) 0917 - 477 - 2194 (Violaine's globe cell phone) 0912 - 318 - 7517 (piltel home cell phone) -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Robert J. Bassett Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 8:53 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: On Hive Beetles In a message dated 3/1/2001 10:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, BeeFarmer@HOMESTEAD.COM writes: << I particularly don't want to hear I told you so and be blamed for infesting the area with beetles. So the question is... what chances are there that I will get a package for of beetles?? >> If you are going to buy bees from an area which has beetles, you will probably get the bug, eventually. I can't imagine inspecting a package of bees, visually and being assured that you are free of infestation. I wouldn't believe anyone who says they can do that. The beetles are small and their size varies. They are a bit smaller than our "Lady Bug" beetles and are black to dark brown, in color. They can hide in a crack about 1/16" wide. They hide as the first order of business, when you open a hive. I don't think you could spot one in a package, very easily. They can be quite numerous and boil out the top of the hive when it is opened. They get into your clothes when you are working the bees. They don't appear to give a strong colony a hard time, but they can make a real mess out of a weak colony. They will mess up your supers of honey waiting to be extracted, if you don't get to it pretty quick. You just cannot store supers of honey in beetle country. You must extract your honey as soon as you can. 5 to 6 days of storage and you may be in real trouble. They can go through the destructive larvae stage equally well in pure honey combs but they seem to prefer the brood chamber. I live in central Florida. I moved my hives last year into an orange grove about 40 miles away, to catch the citrus flow. A commercial beekeeper from New York moved his bees into the same grove about a week after I did. I came home with my 4 hives infested with beetles. I am sure the New York beekeeper helped me out with my infestation. I don't know where he had had his bees, prior to putting them in the grove, but I am sure he is spreading the beetle wherever he goes. I have been observing the beetles' activities since that time. I have a pretty good idea, having seen the Beetles multiply and observing their life cycles, that they are quite capable of overwintering in northern climates. They are tough and they can go through all their life cycles (egg, larvae, pupae, adult) inside the hive. I believe we will all be having trouble with them, in time. The best you can do is try to keep them away from your hives as long as you can. When you get them, I feel you will not be able to get rid of them as long as you have bees in the area. If we are going to use chemical control, we will eventually raise 'super beetles', just like we have done with the mites. I am encouraged by some physical control methods I have been working on for these critters. I will share what I learn in a later post. I will say that I keep the hives strong and have no noticeable loss of hive vigor or activity, with the beetles now. I have been told that if you move your hives to catch the flows, the beetles will not be a noticeable problem for you. We still have a lot to learn. I better get back to it. Bob Bassett - Beetle Rancher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: BeeFarmer@homestead.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Subject: Re: On Hive Beetles Content-Type: text/html Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks for your reply your information is very informative.  I live
in Ohio and did say that in my message as to not alarm anyone in the
area.   We do have beetles in the area but most would say they have
been controlled and the very very cold long winter we had should of
really taken a toll on them.  "So the inspectors say"  My plan is to
set these bees off in an area far away from my main site and keep an
eye on them.

Thanks again!






BeeFarmer@HomeStead.Com
http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html
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Build your own free Web site using Homestead's easy drag-and-drop Web-page-building tools. http://www.homestead.com/splash.html?773

========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:06:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Are Feral Honeybees Recovering? Call for observation. Comments: cc: BOMBUS-L@umdd.umd.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sent to the Bee List and the Bombus List with copies to other parties I believe I know almost all the beekeepers in this immediate area, and where the bees are kept, though perhaps a hive or two might slip by my "net." For this reason, as I was studying and photographing goldenrod and asters last fall, I was impressed by the number of locations where I found foraging honeybees where, to my knowledge, there were no domestic bees within range. I did not announce this observation last fall, thinking I'd wait to check on spring survival. Now I think I am definitely seeing a trend in the area. I believe many of the honeybees I'm seeing are feral, and have been feral for more than one season. I'd like to ask observant beekeepers and others to look at prime bee forage plants this spring in areas where you know there are no kept bees, to see if you find honeybees foraging, and report on your finds. Compare with past years. (I know this kind of informal survey is scorned by the "peer review" folks, and one of my dreams is to do a better job of scientific evaluation of the population trends. If I could figure out a way to fund this AND make a living, I'd like to spend the remainder of my working years studying pollinator populations) But surveys and long-term observations by interested people do have value. The Audubon Society and other groups do surveys and counts each year, and do get a feel for trends by the averages of many, even though individual reports may be highly variable. Since 1990, I have been impressed by the lack of bees in the area, not only honeybees, but also wild bees of many other species. The only one I see whose population does not seem to have been depressed are the large carpenter bee, Xylocopa virginica. I believe I know the reason why this one did not show the impact, which I'll come back to later. I believe the population crash bottomed out and started to recover about four years ago. Again I think it applied to most bee species, not just honeybees. I have long expected that honeybees would find mechanisms of varroa mite resistance. This needs to be further studied. Right now the only efforts I know of to study resistance are in kept bees. I think the wild bees need a much closer look. And I realize that is more difficult. I have also long thought that pesticide use patterns are much more significant for pollinator populations in the end, than varroa mites or other parasites/diseases. This is from my observations of the bee crash that occurred in 1990 following the previous late fall massive mosquito spraying project, and the continuing losses from cotton spraying. I saw these losses in my own bees, and it was reflected in the wild bee populations as well. In the mid '90's I could go to a prime bee forage species like goldenrod and find practically no bees unless there were honeybees kept in the vicinity. I remember watching one large patch of goldenrod near Kingstree, SC for an hour on a sunny afternoon, and seeing NO bees whatsoever, only a few wasps. I'm going to try to get back to that site sometime soon to see if they have returned. I am now finding bees almost everywhere. The ratio of species varies from place to place, but most of the spring "bee attractors" are getting good activity. It is also becoming rare to find a place without at least a few honeybees. In this area Bradford pear is very common and highly attractive. Perhaps you can find a similar plant that "always" has bees working it. GM cotton has in recent years, created a great reduction in spraying during the critical early bloom period, when almost all bees are foraging in the cotton fields. Cotton is everywhere around here, and there is little other forage during the early bloom of cotton. I think this is a highly relevant fact both for domestic and feral honeybees and for bumblebees, for which cotton is a prime forage blossom. Xylocopa is dormant by this time, though, so it is not affected by cotton spraying. Widespread mosquito spraying has also only occurred during dormancy. The farms around here are dotted with old tobacco packhouses, which are full of carpenter bees. I think this is a premium pollination resource for early spring bloom. The buildings are almost all abandoned, some are falling down. But no one cares about the carpenter bees, and no one poisons them as suburbanites are apt to do. I am noticing a high proportion of honeybees seen foraging that are a decided gray color. This interests me, in that I have never kept a gray bee, nor do I know of any other domestic bees in the area that are gray. The gray color is a characteristic of Caucasian bees, is it not? They have never been popular here, and I have no experience with them. Has someone introduced them at some point, and do they have a varroa resistance mechanism that the Italians and Carniolans don't have? Which has caused a gradual rise in their proportion in feral populations? I am thinking that the crash in pollinator populations was caused by a coincidence of two factors, pesticide misuse and varroa mites. I believe that we are also seeing some significant (but not complete) recovery. I'm looking for confirmation or refutation of this. I am eager to hear your comments. I would especially like to devise ways to quantify and document these general observations. Right now I am concentrating on closeup photography. I am also working hard to learn to identify bees species, so my records will be more accurate. I am also wondering if this is a local thing, a southeastern US thing, or a general North American thing. Relevant web addresses: http://pollinator.com/goldenrod.htm Fall flower visitors http://pollinator.com/aster.htm More fall flower visitors http://pollinator.com/gallery/February/february_flowers.htm February buds and bees Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com (now searchable) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:24:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Are Feral Honeybees Recovering? Call for observation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "David L. Green" wrote: > I have long expected that honeybees would find mechanisms of varroa mite > resistance. This needs to be further studied. Right now the only efforts I > know of to study resistance are in kept bees. I think the wild bees need a > much closer look. And I realize that is more difficult. You're singing my song, Dave. I find it difficult to believe that so little work or even careful documented observation has been done of feral honey bees in the U.S. I'm going to Yuma next week (and hopefully a few more trips there), and may find if the isolated feral populations have bounced back - everything is blooming now, but the last two years were dry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:43:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Are Feral Honeybees Recovering? Call for observation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Green asks: > I am also wondering if this is a local thing, a southeastern US thing, or a general North American thing. "The return of the feral bee" seems to be quite real here in central Louisiana, and has been apparent for the past two years. As far as I know, we are the only beekeepers in this parish (county), and we're merely small hobbyists. The bees that are being noticed and reported to me from all over the parish must be feral, and not escaped swarms from kept hives. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:45:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael W Stoops Subject: Re: Are Feral Honeybees Recovering? Call for observation. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >From: "David L. Green" > I'd like to ask observant beekeepers and others to look at prime bee > forage plants this spring in areas where you know there are no kept bees, to > see if you find honeybees foraging, and report on your finds. Hi All, I've seen a significant increase in the number of honey bees working the fruit trees around my yard this year. I have also noted, maybe noticed is the term, a goodly number of carpenter bees and a few bumble bees in the yard also. Location: Monroe County, Alabama 1/2 way between Montgomery and Mobile, Alabama Mike Stoops ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:45:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Roach Subject: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Merced County California has detected Small Hive Beetle or SHB (Aethina tumida Murray) during a routine apiary strength inspection of 198 colonies on 2-28-01. CDFA Meadowview lab confirmed the sample on 3-2-01. The bees were originally purchased from an out-of-business Florida based operation. The colonies traveled from Florida to Maine to North Dakota and then to California in October of 2000. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:36:33 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination and washed semen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Has anyone managed to follow up the Steve Taber Referance to Kaftanoglu? All I can find is endless lists that quote the same referance but I can't find the original article Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:50:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Larkspur MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curiosity question: Just now, after a rain, I noticed a number of honeybees on the larkspur border of one our flowerbeds. This is annual larkspur, Delphinium (certainly) ajacis (probably), and is as yet only four or five inches tall. No buds or flowers on it nor on anything else in the bed, nor will there be any for weeks yet. The bees ignored the other plants and landed on the feathery foliage of the larkspur, where they sat or moved around a little before buzzing away a short distance to another spot. Does anyone know what attracts them to these plants under these circumstances? Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 21:31:37 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Larkspur In-Reply-To: <200103032219.RAA20022@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Walter Weller: There are a number of plants on which bees gather from nectories on stem or foliage, e.g., Catalpa trees here in Ala., on the underside of leaf where it joins its stem, and partridge pea; bees do also work the blooms, but without much enthusiasm.. I know nothing about larkspur being worked, having not had these plants while keeping bees, and honeydew (more like August than now). Bob Barnett Birmingham > From: grumpy7 > Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > > Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 15:50:44 -0600 > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Larkspur > > Just now, after a rain, I find bees on 5 inch tall larkspur without bloom ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 07:33:56 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Organic honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Organic honey There are beekeepers who can and do set their hives in very remote parts of this world. With many, many miles from industry, agriculture, and human habitation. The arguments below can with little modification be applied to just about anything produced with an "organic" label. > Even assuming that an area the size of the potential foraging district of a > beehive can be claimed to be 'organic', no one can assure us that all the things > that hold water or make dust in that area will be also 'organic'. Bees will > gather anything they can find that appeals to them. If this arguement is just a prejudice against the concept of organic products then the argument is doing a disservice to the beekeeping industry. If the honey that I can produce on an unihabited island in the middle of the South Pacific can not be called organic then there is a problem with the system unrelated to the quality of the honey. John Lewis Fiji Islands ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <200103040910.EAA02133@listserv.albany.edu>; from lewis@SUVA.IS.COM.FJ on Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:33:56AM +1200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > If this arguement is just a prejudice against the concept of > organic products then the argument is doing a disservice to > the beekeeping industry. > "Organic products" mean different things to different people, and to the many standards organizations that certify something to be "organic". I have nothing against the practice of organic farming and purchase some items that I feel are better products as a result of using those techniques. But I am very unhappy about some of the claims put forth about the advantages of organic products. > If the honey that I can produce on an unihabited island in the > middle of the South Pacific can not be called organic then > there is a problem with the system unrelated to the quality of > the honey. > That is correct. By some standards if there is one farmer within a given area that is not using organic methods you cannot be an organic producer of honey. No matter what. Because that (the use of land in your area) is the standard, not what is in the honey. -- | There is no doubt we need govenment in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:20:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Reliquifying honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know how long and what wattage light bulb it takes to decrystalize a pail of honey, sealed in an insulated box, back to liquid form? Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:01:07 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: Reliquifying honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Green wrote: > Does anyone know how long and what wattage light bulb it takes to > decrystalize a pail of honey, sealed in an insulated box, back to liquid form? I have a large chest freezer that I have converted to a honey heater. I heat it with two 100 watt light bulbs attached to a thermostat set at 100 degrees. I liquefy jars that have crystallized as well as 60 pound square jugs. How long it takes relates to how much I load in, but just as a hint, I recently liquefied about 100 pounds (including one 60 pounder) in about two and a half days. I found that a small circulating fan (originally used to cool a computer) helps even the heat and therefore the liquefying process. It only runs when the bulbs are on. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "H. Kroese" Subject: Re: Instrumental Insemination and washed semen Hi Aaron Morris and all. Thanks for your respons. There must be someone that has some expiriance with this "washed semen" techniques. I did not receive any articals or documents yet. If you have something for me, or be able to wright some lines about it, i would be very greatful. (scanned)documents or articals (too big for the list) pleas send them to my personal account. Thanks, Hennie Kroese. Holland http://home.hetnet.nl/~kroese/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:25:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Sugar Syrup Greetings all, Things are starting to pick up around the St. Louis area. Checked a few hives today, and the girls appear to be bringing in a bit of nectar. I noticed that the Silver Maples appear to be blooming. I am hoping to gleen some information from the list. A couple fellow beekeepers and I purchased about 10,000 pounds of sugar. It was floor sweepings, and the price was more than right. Problem was, about 25 percent of it was brown sugar. All the literature says that you shouldnt feed brown sugar, but they dont say why. Is 25 percent too high? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 03:15:48 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Brown sugar, maples, and spring feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: smoser@RURALCOM.NET (Scott Moser) > All the literature says that you shouldnt >feed brown sugar, but they dont say why. Is 25 percent too high? I fed brown sugar to bees for many years, because I was able to get salvage very cheaply. What you need to remember is that it contains a lot of indigestible material, so it should never be fed in fall, when bees' cleansing flights will soon be restricted by cold. In the spring when bees will be able to fly freely, they can handle it quite nicely. >Checked a few hives today, and the girls appear to be bringing in a bit of nectar. > I noticed that the Silver Maples appear to be blooming. And you are wise to see the maple flow as a signal to feed. The maple flow fools many beekeepers into thinking that the bees can now feed themselves. What it actually does is to stimulate the queen. Sometimes the bees use up all the maple flow in rearing brood. Sometimes they actually do put in a little surplus. But it is almost always used up quickly in the dearth period that follows. Bees with little resources will then starve; the strongest, broodiest hives die first, when a freeze kills buds, or a stormy period prevents flight. So check all hives for reserves. Never count any uncapped nectar that you see in the early spring as a food reserve. It will quickly disappear. If the bees do not have ample capped reserved, then feed, feed, feed. The strongest hives will use the feed most efficiently. In late spring the situation will change overnight and you must also be quick to recognize that you must switch from feed mode to swarm control mode. That is not a problem. It just means that you now have the "bee power" to make replacement hives and to make early spring (the best) honey, if you are a good manager. The maple bloom is over, here in South Carolina. There is all kinds of bloom apparent right now (see: http://pollinator.com/gallery/February/february_flowers.htm). But most of this bloom is pollen rich and nectar poor, which means the bees will brood up and starve, if not equipped with lots of reserve honey OR feed. It will be the end of March before they will be getting sufficient nectar to support themselves. I would far rather have swarmy bees in early April than to have dead bees from a stormy period around March 20. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 09:19:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Paul Cronshaw, D.C." Subject: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103030500.AAA27727@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" IS there a device or special procedure to liquify granulated honey in 5 gallon buckets? Has anyone tried the "melt belt" from Brush Mountain? -- Paul Cronshaw, D.C. Hobbyist Beekeeper Santa Barbara, CA USA This material is presented for private discussion, research and educational purposes only. Do not publish, broadcast or otherwise distribute this material without prior written authority. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 17:16:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: On Hive Beetles Comments: To: ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Do you know of a reliable source of packages and new equipment for him?" For Florida breeders and package outfits, the beesource website lists a few in Florida: http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/usbees.htm The list also contains equipment suppliers. I have found the woodenware carried by Rossman (Georgia) to be excellent (Cypress). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 06:38:05 -0700 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: Queen Bee Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Allen Dick" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:35 AM Subject: Queen Bee Standards > >Seems to me that a large organisation already in place like > >Sue Bee, ABF or AHPA could pick up the ball on this and establish > >a standard, then licence the use of marks for the nominal cost of > >>administering and policing the standards. > > >I'm thinking that we need a standard endorsed by a national, > >continental, or world body. This applies not only to woodenware, > >but also things like 'hygienic' queens. > > Yeah, I know a "hygenic queen"... he will come and clean > your house every week at reasonable prices! :) Hygienic behaviour will become much more important in the next few years as fewer and fewer chemicals and drugs will be available and effective against our multitude of bee health problems. Bee breeding has the potential to reduce these major threats to minor status. If bee breeding is to replace drugs, then it must be quality controlled and certified, just as drugs and chemicals are now. The problem is that bee breeeding costs money and effort and the product of that that money and effort must be able to be verified and rewarded. It happens that 'hygienic' is much cheaper and easier to achieve in advertising than in the beehive. Although many, if not most bee breeders, are honest, educated, and try to give good value, queen raisers have no strong incentive to conform hygienic or SMR standards in bees they label 'hygienic' or 'SMR' unless they are tested peridically by an independant organisation -- and potentially subject to sanctions or public embarrassment. As I have pointed out publicly, we spend well over $10 per year per hive treating and inspecting to suppress AFB, EFB, mites, etc. Some things like chalkbrood and sacbrood and viruses, we cannot treat, yet they have a hand in our pocket. That means that I could very happily spend =at least= $10 more per queen for bees that are immune to these scourges. BUT I wouldn't do that, and neither would any astute commercial beekeeper -- pay double the price -- unless I had strong evidence that the queens were produced under strict quality control and testing. We need assurance of consistency if we are to depend entirely on these characteristics. Any variation and subsequent failure could be very costly. Without a high level of conformance to standards failure rates could be high resulting in loss of bees, loss of crop, extra work, remedial chemical or radiation treatment, and even destruction of hive parts. Without independant testing, I could not reasonably count on these traits being there consisently enough to rely on them and would not pay the premium. We see regulation and certification in many analagous areas. Only certain varieties of wheat may be grown in Western Canada. Commercial seed growers must meet standards and submit to testing and certification. We are no different. If we want to ensure that all areas are filled with bees that are relatively unaffected by the mentioned diseases and pests, we must have a way of proving conformance on the queen market. For those beekeepers who oppose any form of regulation, need I mention that the drugs we use are produced to strict standards under inspection and quality control testing? Why not their potential replacements? Independent testing and certification marks keep everyone honest. Independent testing ensures that those who do a good job of breeding consistent queens with the advertised traits get rewarded. Independent testing discourages phonies. In short, without independant testing and an official 'seal of approval' to certify and reward high performance queens, we will never get off the chemical treadmill. That is because without convincing independant testing 1.) no one will have faith in the product and 3.) no one will make the strong effort necessary to meet the high level of consistency and performance necessary to wean the industry from cheap, effective, and, yes, standardised chemicals. -- allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I went to the hardware store and bought some used paint. It was in the shape of a house. I also bought some batteries, but they weren't included. So I had to buy them again. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:41:51 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Detchon Subject: Linoleic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .BEE-L posting 001627 reported that:- " USDA DISCOVERS NEW CONTROL FOR FOULBROOD Recently a new chemical has been identified that = controls American Foulbrood (AFB) Disease according to an article by = Dr. Shimanuki in the October American Bee Journal. It is = interesting to note that the discovery was based on the relationship = between chalkbrood and AFB. In studies conducted in the 60's, 70's = and 80's by the USDA Beltsville Bee Lab they noticed that as = the incidence of chalkbrood increased the incidence of = European Foulbrood decreased. Later, scientists isolated a substance from chalkbrood = that inhibited the growth of both American and European = Foulbrood bacteria in laboratory studies. A chemist at the lab = identified the active ingredient as linoleic acid. Field tests are now = being conducted to determine the best way to treat colonies of bees." What was the outcome of these field tests? Does anyone know? I have seen = nothing reported in either the scientific literature or beekeeping = press. Peter Detchon, homesteadhoney@wn.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:58:03 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: melt belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul asks if anyone has tried Brushy Mountain's "melt belt". I have not. However, Kelley and Dadant both sell a 5-gallon pail heater that looks like the one described in the Brushy Mountain catalog. I have used one for many years with satisfactory results. Will liquefy a fully granulated pail of honey in about 12 hours. Stirring will reduce that to around 8 hours. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:41:11 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Tilia intoxification? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi BEE-Lers, I'm not involved in beekeeping -- my involvement is that I work on the= conservation of pollinators, especially native bees -- but read BEE-L= discussions with interest, as they keep me informed of beekeeping and= commercial pollination issues. However, I now have a question that I would= like to have the combined wisdom of BEE-L's correspondents respond to... I'm originally from England, where on several occasions I have seen the= ground beneath Tilia trees (in England, known as lime or pry, in the U.S.,= linden or basswood) scattered with dead bees. I have seen this under both= small-leaf lime (Tilia cordata) and hybrid European lime (Tilia europea).= The dead bees certainly included both honey bees and bumble bees, and may= have included other species. I have been told that the bees find Tilia= nectar irresistible, and fall to the ground intoxicated after a feeding= frenzy. I would be interested in hearing whether this is a wide-spread phenomena.= I've mentioned this to a couple of people, but don't want to be= responsible for spreading misinformation if it really doesn't happen very= often! Can bee keepers in England confirm that this happens? Does anyone= in the U.S. know of similar occurrences here? Does any one know why this= might happen? (Tilia is used in homeopathic medicines, and is thought to= be a muscle relaxant.) Your insight would be much appreciated. Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Program and Publications The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org _____________________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website: http://www.xerces.org/ _____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:07:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Tilia intoxification? Comments: To: mdshepherd@xerces.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/5/01 1:53:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, mdshepherd@XERCES.ORG writes: << I have been told that the bees find Tilia= nectar irresistible, and fall to the ground intoxicated after a feeding= frenzy. >> Bumblebee intoxication is fairly common, on a variety of flowers. I've seen it many times. Sometimes they die there. One possible explanation I've heard is a parasite that infects the bumbler and disrupts its nervous system. American linden (basswood) is a major honey crop in some areas of the Northeast. I have never heard any report of toxicity, and it seems likely that I would have, if it is actually toxic. But I'll keep open to any possible reports. Whenever there is a heavy nectar flow a lot of adult worker bees die anyway. If you ever get a chance to observe this phenomenon again, take a close look at the honeybees. Young workers who are just beginning flight would look cleaner and fuzzier. As they get older they lose the fuzz and get progressively greasier looking. Older bees are also more apt to show frayed wings. If the dead bees are predominantly old bees, I'd lean toward the idea that they simply worked to death. If you saw a lot of younger bees, I would want to investigate the toxicity idea further. One more thought: are these trees often sprayed for pests, when they are planted along city streets? You may have seen the result of a pesticide kill. And this would fit better with the fact that such losses aren't observed with Tilia in American forests. City trees are much more apt to be sprayed. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 07:17:40 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ARNOLD JONES Subject: Re: Organic honey In-Reply-To: <200103040913.EAA02160@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii True on the Fiji statement. I am getting static from the organic people in the middle of a farm community of East Ten. All because my neighbor has a cross-tie in his yard. Organic is becoming an elitist cult mentality more than a concern for safety. Dinner conversation at the country club for many. Arnold Jones ===== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:40:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Flabbergasted! Comments: cc: wstansfi@calpoly.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Many of us picked up on "the amazing news that Allen Dick is retiring." He replied (in part): >It's true. It had to happen sometime, I guess, and the time seemed right. A >lot of factors came together. We woke up one day a few weeks ago and realized >the time had come. As to what he will do, he wrote: >We'll see. The future is wide open. Of course, we will all miss him but hope he will continue his valuable contributions to BEE-L. In the meantime, many of you might be interested in a recent interview between a reporter (R) and Allen (A), as follows: R: Who is your favorite actress? A: [Bea] Arthur from Golden Girls R: What picture would you most like to paint? A: Attila the [Hun, knee] deep in a field of flowers. R: What is your favorite short story and where is it published? A: The life and times of St.[Paul in Nation]al Geographic magazine. R: Who is your favorite mystery detective? A: Ellery [Queen]. R: What is your favorite pastime? A: Watching the moon wax and wane, especially the former. R: What is your pet peeve? A: People who [drone] on and on about nothing. R: How do you define "a tragedy?" A: A mis[hap Lloyds] of London did not insure. R: What are your favorite hand tools? A: Combs. R: Describe your dream automobile. A: A new [Nissan, off] the showroom floor. R: Where were you and what were you complaining about on your last boat trip? A: On a [ferry, moan]ing about the lack of air conditioning. R: Who is your favorite outlaw character? A: The Sun[dance] Kid. R: What kind of parties do you most like to attend? A: Smokers. R: Where do you most like to go skiing? A: [Veil], Colorado. R: Do you have any allergies? A: Hives. R: What is your favorite rock music band? A: Sting. R: Where would you like to see most grant money go? A: [For aging] research. R: What European river would you most like to travel? A: The [Oder]. The results of this interview gives us a good idea about what has driven Allen over the years. Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The production of scientific knowledge is simultaneously * the production of scientific error." * Naomi Aronson, 1986 * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:47:05 -0600 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: Re: melt belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use sixty pound square plastic jugs to store my honey. I acquired a square "melt belt" from Lapps in Wisconsin. It works quite well, but you need to be careful. It is very hot. If it is not tightened or if you lay the jug down, it will melt through the plastic. A real mess. I suspect the same could happen with plastic buckets. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:19:07 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Re: Tilia intoxification? In-Reply-To: <200103051915.OAA20867@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/5/01 at 2:07 PM David L. Green wrote: > One more thought: are these trees often sprayed for pests, when they are >planted along city streets? You may have seen the result of a pesticide kill. >And this would fit better with the fact that such losses aren't observed with >Tilia in American forests. City trees are much more apt to be sprayed. The trees I have seen this under were all in landscaped gardens in rural areas of Southern England. From contact with the tree maintenance staff, I can be sure that they had not been treated. Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Program and Publications The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org _____________________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website: http://www.xerces.org/ _____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:54:57 -0500 Reply-To: hmeyer@sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Helen Meyer Subject: Melt Belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A water bed heater works very effectively around both metal and plastic containers. They can be picked up inexpensively at second hand stores. I ty mine on with a long bungee cord. Helen Meyer Erin, ON Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: EPA call for comments. Any news? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Environmental Protection Agency announced in the Federal Register its intention to seek public comment on a draft Pesticide Registration (PR) notice entitled "Guidance for Pesticide Registrants on Bee Precautionary Labeling". The comment period ends Jan 22, 2001. I have heard nothing more. Does anyone have an update? Aaron Morris - thinking the silence is deafening! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "George J. Biles (Southeastern PA, USA)" Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket Until last year I used the aforementioned "melt-belt". It does work, and (per instructions)you do need to put a sleeve of aluminum flashing between the belt and the bucket: otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) belt will cut into the bucket. Install it low on the pail and it will liquify the contents in about 36-48 hours. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:40:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Quality measure of Automn (fall) queens In-Reply-To: <200102271217.HAA12181@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200102271217.HAA12181@listserv.albany.edu>, wajih daour writes >Dear Beekeepers, >I bread queens for our own use in Spring, Summer and Fall to see which = >is more valuable for our short and fast citrus honey flow in Jordan = >valley, (we harvest 10th of April). I noticed the following results and = >would like to hear your comments. >I used American imported queens Have you ever used your own native Jordanian bees? Or does anyone near you do this? It would be interesting to compare bee behaviour and productivity. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:52:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Regarding the melt belt, George J. Biles wrote, "... otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) belt will cut into the bucket...." Well, I'd be concerned then for the effect on the honey. Temperatures hot enough to melt the plastic belt surely will damage the honey. To protect the honey I'd utilize something with a thermostat to assure the honey does not get heated too hot or too long. There's plenty on this topic in the archives. As I recall, Jan Templeton's web page has very good charts and explanations regarding heating honey. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:13:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Regarding the melt belt, George J. Biles wrote, "... otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) belt will cut into the bucket...." Aaron wrote: Well, I'd be concerned then for the effect on the honey. Temperatures hot enough to melt the plastic belt surely will damage the honey. To protect the honey I'd utilize something with a thermostat to assure the honey does not get heated too hot or too long. Bob wrote: I like Aaron would never use a heating device on honey without a thermostat. I have helped many beekeepers with the above problem. There are many other thermostat solutions but I like to keep things simple and only recommend what I consider the best solution. Parts needed: Walter Kelley *Heat limit control* on page 50 of the 2001 catalog. Price $42 plus shipping. Plug the belt into the heat limit control and the control into the wall socket. Place the bulb in the five gallon pail. Set the temperature you want and forget. Don't buy a belt heater to use on honey without a thermostat ( as Aaron said earlier). Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:05:20 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: melt belts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Kelley pail heater is made by Acra Electric. The manufacturer says it will heat water to 185 degrees and they have not tested it on honey, but the maximum should be lower because of the higher density. I have used it for 2 years. It will melt a slight dent in a 5 gallon bucket, which is why Kelley advises putting aluminum flashing between it and the pail. However, twice by accident I have left it on when I went home for the night. This is with the top loosely sitting on the pail. On both occasions the honey was heated to 150 degrees in the morning, and the pail was dented, but intact. The Dadant pail heater has a thermostat preset at 125 degrees so is probably a better choice for most; although this will take longer to liquefy a pail completely granulated. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:12:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The conversation has turned to a belt around a pail with a thermostate. It seems that a few lightbulbs in a sealed box would be gentle on the honey and avoid a purchase and could easily be made. Has anyone build such a device and had experience with such a device? I am thinking of stacking 4-5hive bodies abound three pails stacked with a lightbulb(s) for a heat source. Insulate it, with a cover, and wait. Any experience? Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103071515.KAA20430@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It seems that a few lightbulbs in a sealed box would be gentle on the honey > and avoid a purchase and could easily be made. Has anyone build such a device > and had experience with such a device? Yup its been done, and it's been discussed. There is a whole lot of info involving bulbs, freezers and fridges in the archives. Please go to http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L and select "How can I find out what has been discussed? (Our FAQ in archive form)" or "Can I Search the BEE-L Archives for keywords of Interest?" allen --- I got up one morning and couldn't find my socks, so I called Information. She said, "Hello, Information." I said, "I can't find my socks." She said, "They're behind the couch." And they were! -- Steven Wright _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:19:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103070431.XAA09504@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Until last year I used the aforementioned "melt-belt". It does work... This whole topic scares me. Food handling is a serious matter, and all manner of inexperienced people are casually doing all kinds of things with honey, then eating it themselves or selling it to the public. I've said before and I'll say it again: Knowing what I know now, I'd be a bit worried to eat honey produced and sold by many beekeepers I have met. They simply don't have the knowledge to handle the product. * Honey should not be heated. Period. 100 degrees F is the limit of warming. After that damage occurs. Nonetheless some compromises are possible if the damage is understood and acceptable. * Containers used for storage and heating have limitations. At room temperature, plastics are generally considered to be okay (but I say that with some reservations due to potential polymer migration into the product over time). However, *heated* plastics can give off undesirable compounds and when at the point of melting this effect is at its worst. Metal and painted containers have their problems too. Stainless steel and glass seem to be the only surfaces which are completely safe, and I'm betting that there is some minor difficulty even with SS. I've never heard a hint of problems with glass, which is the most inert container material and is thus the best if reheating is contemplated. Okay, having said that, reality takes over and we all find ourselves in situations where honey needs to be liquefied. Commercial honey packing and distribution as we know and love it would simply not be possible without heating honey over 100 degrees F. That's because most North American honey granulates fairly quickly and because there is a perceived need for filtration and pasteurization to enhance attractiveness and shelf life. Beekeepers also sometimes wish to transfer solid honey from one container to another. (Like when your tank sets up solid over a weekend). Nonetheless heat damages honey, and the surfaces honey contacts in the process change its characteristics and nature and may introduce undesirable odours or even toxic substances. Heating honey in plastic or painted containers is a questionable practice at best. The best honey liquefication systems used in commercial plants release the honey from the container walls initially and allow the chunk to descend over warmed coils or pipes of inert material held at controlled temperatures into a vat that is stirred constantly and held at the lowest temperature practical. Even these systems do their damage to the product. Using heat belts is particularly bad because the middle of the container is heated while the ends are exposed to room temp and are simultaneously cooling the product. Although they fall in the 'necessary evil' class, modified freezers and fridges or hot rooms are much better because the heat is distributed over the entire surface and controlled by thermostats. Air circulation or frequent stirring can ensure that the heat is distributed to the centre of the mass as quickly as possible to minimize exposure to high heat and the consequent increased damage longer exposures and higher temperatures cause. The best advice for those who care about honey is to fill it into the desired container immediately after extraction and not attempt to remelt it. If it is absolutely necessary to heat honey, choose a plan that ensures that the honey is removed from contact with potentially chemically active surfaces and exposed to as little heat as possible for the shortest possible time. There is a lot on this and other honey quality issues in the archives. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- What's another word for Thesaurus? -- Steven Wright _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:20:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick Green wrote: > The conversation has turned to a belt around a pail with a thermostate. It > seems that a few lightbulbs in a sealed box would be gentle on the honey and > avoid a purchase and could easily be made. I built a dehydrator. Nothing more than a 25High x12D x22W with a removable front and opening on the bottom front and back and 2 100w bulbs. The front comes off and can be moved up and down to vary the opening at the top/bottom. I "calibrated" the opening so know the temp at each position. I wanted to stay just below 120 and can vary it from 117 to 122F which is perfect for reliquifying honey. It will take a 25lb pail easily and reliquifys it overnight. So I have a double duty device. Dehydrate all sorts of veggies and meats for jerky. The shelves are screened and removable. It was interesting to see the difference the upper gap made in the temp. It is sup rising how little the temp varies even with a large opening at the top. But that means a smaller opening at the bottom. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:29:18 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103071625.LAA23673@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The best in my humble opinion is the water jacketed heating . Find a container that one or a dozen 5's will fit in and try to make the water as deep as possible. I have the Kelly unit that holds three 5's and the water is only about one third the way up the can. This container sits on a stand I made and a double burner goes under the water container. I can soften crystallized honey enough to bottle through a gate valve about 90 degrees in about 30 minutes if I stirr the honey with a paint stirrer. I can get the honey very liquified for the machine filling about 105 degrees in about one and a half hours and I can pasterize the honey 140 degrees for 20 minutes in about two and a half hours. Best if you have another deep container with cool water to put the 5 of honey into for a quick cool down is pasterizing. Sorry about my spelling and like W.C, Fields once said " Anybody who can not spell a word two or three different ways is pretty dam dumb." God bless to all and if visiting Hawaii feel free to contact me for some tips. Yesterday was 74 degrees and the bees have been busy in the Macadamia Nut orchards since 1-1-01. Walter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:36:17 +0100 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: melt belts In-Reply-To: <200103071505.KAA20177@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]På vegne af Lloyd Spear > Sendt: 7. marts 2001 16:05 > Til: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Emne: melt belts Swienty AS http://www.swienty.com is producing a honey melter (various sizes) with a thermostat on. It will melt is way through the honey and not harm it. it is build from stainless steel and build like a spiral. They have an online catalogue. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software 18-01-2001 added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:01:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen wrote: Honey should not be heated . Period. 100 degrees F. is the limit of warming after that damage occurs. All health food stores I sell to put the limit at 120 F. before damage occurs. All Beekeepers selling in grocery stores set their heat limit at 150 F. to prevent crytalization on the shelves. Their reasoning is based on the *Dyce* research. For Years I only sold in the 55 gallon drums and never added any heat (or filtered the honey). Skimmed the top and sent the drums the Western Commerce. . Any honey heated over 160F. is said to be pasteurized. I have never seen a large scale packing line run with a temp lower than 170 F. When there has been a breakdown and the bottling needs to speeded up I have seen higher temperatures. I agree with Allen as to the 100F. being the best temperature to protect the integrity of the honey but you will have to look for quite a while to find unheated honey in the stores. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: visit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess this isn't going to work out. I will only be in town a couple of hours on Friday afternoon, and again late Saturday. I will be on my way to and from Cincinnati for the Southwestern Ohio Beekeeping School. Working with Hasbro's stock sounds exciting, but I know the process will be a long one. I do like your thoughts about working to develop the concept of stock development on a regional basis. Kirk Webster may be a good person for this region. I can give you his address and phone number. He is good about grafting and raising nice fat queens, but he is a strong believer in open mating...but also open to change. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 07:53:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Regarding the melt belt, George J. Biles wrote, "... otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) belt will cut into the bucket...." Aaron wrote: Well, I'd be concerned then for the effect on the honey. Temperatures hot enough to melt the plastic belt surely will damage the honey. To protect the honey I'd utilize something with a thermostat to assure the honey does not get heated too hot or too long. One possible solution is to use the Walter Kelley *Heat limit control* on page 50 of the 2001 catalog. Plug the belt into the heat limit control and the control into the wall socket. Place the bulb in the five gallon pail. Set the temperature you want and forget. Don't buy a belt heater to use on honey without a thermostat ( as Aaron said earlier). An old immersion heater thermostat can be converted to a heat limit control also. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri