From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:44 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDhs18769 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:43 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDeJ12705 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDeJ12705@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0103B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 144462 Lines: 2867 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:16:49 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tilia intoxification MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a lime tree I pass on the way to my allotment. When in flower you can hear it from many yards away because of the bees of all types. I often pause and look up. If there were dead bees at my feet I would notice and I haven't. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:56:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Fw: Queen Bee Standards Comments: To: Allen Dick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Queen standards are a excellent idea but I doubt you could ever get a system in place. I complained in the 80's when *Huck Babcock- Queen Breeder* was ripping people off. I still remember Hucks motto: *Early Bird gets Worm*(page 840 Dec. 1983 ABJ ). Huck ripped beekeepers off year after year. Took money and never sent the queens. Every month complaints about his business pactices were heard. Huck's full page adds and claims about his queens brought him plenty of business. I never ordered from *Huck* but heard plenty of stories from those which did. The bee magazines ran *Buyer Beware* warnings about Huck but still ran his full page adds. As far as I know Huck never got in any trouble and moved when the heat from the queen buyers got to hot. Then he would pop up again in another location. Maybe a few old beekeepers on Bee-L will comment. I never met the man but his escapades are legendary. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:15:11 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: heating honey and plastics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison set the record straight, as far as I know, on how honey is processed today. Those suggesting the commercial guys are putting out honey without exposure to 150 degree temperature are just not up to date. If done properly, such honey does not taste burned, although the taste is subtly affected. However, those exposing honey to these temperatures are also filtering the honey (otherwise, the cost of getting the honey up to these temperatures may be wasted) to remove all foreign ingredients, including pollen. The filtration does change the taste significantly. Such honey tastes just like sugar syrup...no taste at all. In a similar manner, those who are worried that plastics heated to anything less than around 200 degrees will somehow release chemicals into food are repeating old wives tales. That said, there are many kinds of plastics and I am certain that some may vaporize chemicals...but not those common plastics that are commonly used in food applications, and that includes the plastics used in the manufacture of 5 gallon pails. Many plastics, including polypropylene and polyethylene can and are heated to near 200 degrees as a matter of course and, if handled properly, will show no damage. We all know of milk sold in clear plastic containers that are washed and dried for reuse. What many are not aware of is that the "cardboard" containers so common today for milk, juice, eggs, etc. are really plastic containers. The slice of board in these is very low and the containers are principally made of polyethylene, with different grades for the outside and the inside of the containers. To make them sterile, these are also heated to temperatures approximating 200 degrees. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:32:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: heating honey and plastics Comments: To: lloydspear@email.msn.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In a similar manner, those who are worried that plastics heated to anything > less than around 200 degrees will somehow release chemicals into food are > repeating old wives tales. That said, there are many kinds of plastics and > I am certain that some may vaporize chemicals...but not those common > plastics that are commonly used in food applications, and that includes the > plastics used in the manufacture of 5 gallon pails. Many plastics, > including polypropylene and polyethylene can and are heated to near 200 > degrees as a matter of course and, if handled properly, will show no damage. Hmmm. Old wives tales, eh? I must be hitting close to the bone. After all that, I see the words "if handled properly". That's the point. If people are melting the pails, what =is= the temperature? Also I see "near 200 degrees", isn't that around the temperature of boiling water? When heat belts or hot air are used, what about the parts of the pail (hot spots) that are not well cooled by honey? I thought I might hit a nerve when pointing out that virtually all methods used commercially for handling honey damage it and that many common container materials are only appropriate for use at normal shelf temperatures. I actually didn't expect it from the guy who markets one of the few alternatives to damaging honey -- comb honey. I realise that Loyd is likely an expert on plastics by now, since he is manufacturing Ross Rounds and lekley reading a lot of technical stuff, but I do not share his confidence that beekeepers are in the safe zone when using plastic pails and plastic paints, etc. Granted, the damages to honey by today's processing are subtle, and for those who regard honey as just another sweetner or a mass commercial product, these effects don't matter. For those who use honey medicinally or have gourmet taste buds, even the slight damage caused by commercial packing can render honey worthless. We all know how honey is processed today. Commercial beekeepers typically use heat up to a max of 120 F (measured at the contact surfaces) . Many use lower heat, and it is usually only over a matter of minutes to remove large chunks of wax and debris. Honey in cappings is often subject to much more heat over a longer duration. Packers typically heat honey to 160 F for only a few moments, but they also typically hold that honey in vats for a day or more at about 130 F before running it through. We all know what is done, but the question is whether it is right. I know that one of the best built, managed and certified honey packing plants in the world darkens the honey it handles 100% from the time it enters the plant to the time it leaves. The colour number doubles from start to finish. When it leaves the plant it is pasteurized, filtered so that the pollen is gone and IMO, it is not really honey anymore. It is not the honey that I taste when I eat burr comb in the beeyard or the honey I eat when I sample packaged comb honey from markets or stores. I know I am stepping on toes here. Commercial beekeepers need packing plants and packing plants need heat and lots of it. They are in competition for markets and want to use the cheapest process possible because the mass market does not seem able to distinguish good honey from bad, at least in the short run. If they cannot recover the added cost of improved handling, then they have no incentive to seek new and technologically advanced methods of achieving higher quality. Unfortunately, because most of the honey offered to the public is either mass processed or from small operators who very often misunderstand and mishandle honey, the public has turned slowly away from our product and we are losing ground in the marketplace. I am talking here about the output of honest producers and packers and not considering the impact of adulteration, which is rampant worldwide and destroys our incentive to produce a premium product by diminishing the price spread between honey and cheap sweetners as well as diminishing the differences apparent to consumers. I understand that as I write, a shipment of NZ manuka honey is in detention in Canada, since it tested positive for around seven percent corn syrup. Economics are driving the honey production and packing industry and our product is a poor shadow of what the bees make. The fact remains that the best honey is honey in the comb, and preferrably comb made without manufactured foundation. Anything less is less. We all know it, but we don't like to face the fact. Any air, any knives, any augers, any extractors, any pumps, any heat exchangers, any tanks, and any containers that touch that honey on the way to your mouth change the honey subtly. And not for better. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:23:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Roy Nettlebeck Subject: Re: Fw: Queen Bee Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Hello Allen & All, > Queen standards are a excellent idea but I doubt you could ever get a system > in place. I complained in the 80's when *Huck Babcock- Queen Breeder* was > ripping people off. I still remember Hucks motto: Hello Allen and All, Queen standards are needed. The problems that queen breeders have , are plenty and complex. Even with great genetic stock they may have bad weather that will drop the overall quality of there early queens.Coming up with some very basic criteria for evaluation should not be very difficult. Brood pattern. Calm bees Hygienic Behavior As we look deeper into the hives performance , then we are faced with one of the most difficult problems that I have watched over the last 32 + years. Some bees do very well in California but up here in western Washington , they hang around in the hive and wait for sunshine to fly. Some years they don't leave the hive very much. Hence very little honey. Breeders can work with lines that do well in short seasons. I use Carni's , but all carni's are not equal. Even from the same breeder. Year to year I see some differences in brood patterns and the temperature that the bees fly. What we can expect from breeders , is a honest attempt to improve there stock with good knowledge in genetic diversity.That is one of the biggest problems that face the breeders. Good for a couple of years and then down hill.Well educated breeders can get us the queens that we want and need. Bob, I remember Huck and his full page ads. If it sounds to good and it is pushed too hard , stay away. He may be selling cars now. Best Regards Roy Nettlebeck Tahuya River Apiaries Tahuya Wa. 98588 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:52:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: heating honey and plastics Comments: To: lloydspear@EMAIL.MSN.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I need to ask the list a question which has been asked of me twice. Both times I tried to find the answer and was told the answer was no by both my bee supply house and the wholesale plastic seller. I like many other beekeepers sell gallons in the same container as milk comes in. They are all my supplier sells. I have been told by two different individuals that plastic gallon milk containers contain a chemical put in the plastic to retard milk from spoiling. One person was a vender which used the same milk containers to store his company product and his product was tainted. He traced the source to the chemical put in the gallon milk containers ( he said). He quit using only the gallon milk containers(he said) and the problem stopped. The vender was at a trade show I was speaking at. The other was a former worker at Sealright . I spent quite a bit of time trying to find out if he was correct but always the answer was a no. Is the answer no? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:21:14 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: plastics and milk containers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob asked if plastic containers designed for use with milk contain an ingredient to retard spoilage. Presumably, this would be a bactericide. I spend quite a few years in the milk/juice packaging industry. This is a huge industry involving high speed very sophisticated equipment packaging everything from one ounce creamers to two gallon jugs of juice. The lines move so fast that one literally cannot see individual creamers being filled and sealed, and they do this in almost sterile conditions! There are several different kinds of plastic used for milk. The least expensive is PET (I forget the full name), and PET (in the presence of light) will definitely affect the taste of the milk. The most expensive is polypropylene, and that is used for returnable containers as well as on the inside of milk cartons. Polypropylene will not affect taste. Other types of plastic are used as well, and all will affect taste somewhat, but not as bad as PET. However, none of the plastics contain anything to kill bacteria. I am quite certain that this would not be permitted by the FDA. Bacteria is killed in processing plants by either pasteurization or ultra violet lights. Neither kills 100%, but properly maintained both will kill more than 99.5%, and plants often shoot for 99.9%. Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:44:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: heating honey and plastics In-Reply-To: <200103081637.LAA09071@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Allen Dick wrote: > Economics are driving the honey production and packing industry and our > product is a poor shadow of what the bees make. The fact remains that the > best honey is honey in the comb, and preferrably comb made without > manufactured foundation. We uncap with scratchers and separate the cappings from the honey in a sump with temperature controlled at about 100 deg F. We filter it and either put it in plastic tubs for sale as granulated honey or in glass jars for liquid honey. To keep the honey liquid we heat it to 120deg F and hold it at that temperature for 24 hours. The color of the liquid honey treated this way is a pale yellow color as compared to the color of the locally made commercial honey which is a light amber color. The flavour of the liquid honey is quite different from the flavour of the unheated granulated honey. It has lost all of its sharp acidic quality and is really only sweet. The consensus in our house regarding the commercial product is that we prefer Aunt Jemima or Bee Hive Golden Corn Syrup. Another point regarding heating honey (or any food) in plastic containers was made some time ago by a biochemist who said that heating common plastic containers to quite low temperatures produced tiny quantities of compounds similar to human hormones which are effective in incredibly tiny amounts. She said that she would not heat any plastics containing food at all. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:14:18 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Is This What Was Done With The "Tucson Bee-Lab" Money? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone has been wondering what the government is doing with all the money they are saving by closing the Tucson, AZ Bee Lab, here's something that could be simple co-incidence... CNN has an interesting article about a "genetically engineered insect" that will be released this summer near Phoenix, AZ. http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/08/biotech.insect.ap/index.html The moth in question is supposed to be easy to track because their larvae will glow in the dark, courtesy of a jellyfish gene or two (no, I am NOT making this up!) The next step will be to release a different variant that will not glow in the dark, but will mate with cotton-pest moths, but will be sterile. They hope that releasing enough of these sterile moths will make a dent in the reproductive cycle of the moth. Not to worry, though... "Your Tax Dollars At Work" (TM) have provided screen cages for the moths, to insure that the modified moths do not escape into the wild during the tests. Even if a windstorm knocks over the cages, and they DO escape, we are patted on the head and told that they cannot reproduce, and will soon die. Let's see... what sort of fun could we have with THIS? a) Bees could be bred with the glow-in-the-dark gene, to allow hobbyist beekeepers to work their hives at night after a long day at the office. This would also allow swarms to be tracked down at night, a time when beekeepers may have time on their hands and nothing much else to do. b) The mutant glowing moths (anyone remember "Mothra", the least scary of the Japanese movie monsters?) could wreck havoc in the sweater drawers of Phoenix, AZ, forcing public officials to release radioactive bird/bat hybrids to catch and eat the moths, but then those same public officials would be forced to release genetically modified cat/eagle hybrids to catch the birds, and then Wolf/Buzzard hybrids, and so, and so on in the best 1950s Grade-B Japanese Monster Movie tradition. c) The Tucson Bee Lab could be resurrected from its ashes to study how a similar approach could be used to combat the wax moth, which currently destroys comb in abandoned, dead, and diseased hives... oh, wait a sec - never mind... we WANT wax moths to get rid of all that diseased comb before it spreads diseases or becomes a home for nasty "africanized bees", now don't we? d) Maybe someone could learn from history for a change. In a recent New York Times, there just happens to be a very appropriate article that explains "history" in this regard, and it just happens to also be about "moths", in this case the Gypsy Moth. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/03/06/science/06MOTH.html (When it asks for a username and password, if you don't feel like filling out forms, just use the username "syberpunk", and password "syberpunk".) e) Of course, nature hates waste, and just won't tolerate an empty niche in the food chain, so expect some even more persistent opportunistic moth to take over for the moths at issue if the experiment "works". With all the outrage over genetic modification in Europe, there are some new ads that are trying to improve the Bio-tech companies' public image here in the US, most notably, one about "Golden Rice", that is claimed to be the cure for blindness among undernourished 3rd-world children. Never mind that a kid would have to consume pounds and pounds of the rice to get even minor positive results, and never mind that the same kid would also have to get some protein in his/her diet, something clearly lacking in most under-nourished 3rd-world diets. ...but any child who could eat pounds and pounds of any rice, and had some protein too would thereby not be so malnourished, would he? It matters not, the Bio-tech companies have found a "story" to tell, and they will spend a reported $50 Million US to promote and advertise a "breakthrough" that only cost $100 Million US to develop in the first place. "Feeding hungry children and saving them from blindness" is very powerful ammo for the PR hacks, and it just does not matter that it is a lie. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:51:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: heating honey and plastics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob wrote: >I have been told by two different individuals that plastic gallon milk >containers contain a chemical put in the plastic to retard milk from >spoiling. I would know nothing about that. But it brought to mind Allen's comment in a recent email on this thread: > I've never heard a hint of problems with glass, >which is the most inert container material and is thus the best if reheating is contemplated. I was once told that in the manufacture of glass jars there is a mould release compound used that leaves a residue on the glass, and that really, new jars should be washed before use. Comments anyone (on the validity of the statement, not necessarily on the feasibility of doing it)? I did notice one time when we used a label with a poor quality glue that it would not stick well to jars of raw honey. After these had been liquefied in a water bath the labels would stick fine. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:54:20 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Treating bees for varroa using oxalic acid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All The following e mail was sent to the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List and I have secured permission from the author to re transmit it. I would value the opinions of members of BEE-L on the contents. I would also ask for permission to retransmit the replies to the Irish beekeeping Discussion List. Sincerely Tom Barrett Subject: treating bees for varroa using oxalic acid >The treatment we use is a ready made solution produced in Germany with oxalic acid as the active agent. > >No accumulation of the substance was found in the wax and in the honey as has been proven in several tests carried out under scientific conditions. All traces had vanished three weeks after the application. > >The bees do not have to be soaked. >The application procedure is as follows: >The solution has to be shaken and gently heated before use. We carry the 250ml flexible plastic bottle between two hot water bottles in an insulated bag to the apiary and exchange the screwed-on lid for a slightly bow-shaped and pointed application tube. > >The tube is inserted with its 4cm long pointed tip between the frames, which are inhabited by bees. Applying a slight pressure on the container, the tube is guided along all gaps within the cluster. The distribution of the solution is done by the bees. Because there is no evaporation, the treatment is not dependent on the temperature. > >The mites start dropping immediately, but a peak is reached after 48 hours. Normally the visible effects (mites on the insert) last for a week. > >The most important time for treatment is in winter, because no brood is present. You will find only adult mites on the insert after the treatment. > >If necessary - you will know, if you constantly monitor the inserts - you can treat also in late summer after the honey harvest. This time three applications have to be given with intervals of one week between them, because the bees and the mites are still breeding. After the second application you will find a substantial number of young, still transparent mites on the insert. > >Scientific tests have shown a efficacy of up to 99%. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:06:38 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: heating honey and plastics In-Reply-To: <200103081748.MAA11564@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For a long time, Portland (OR) would not take plastic milk containers for recycling. The public was told it was difficult, if not impossible, to remove residue from the plastic. I was told the plastic was somewhat porous and that gases from spoiled milk actually permeated the material. Now, several years later, plastic milk containers are accepted for recycling use in, among other things structural wood substitutes, compost bins and the like. Whether the plastic in the containers had changed or the technology employed in processing recycled plastics, I don't know. It is still almost impossible to rid an empty milk jug of the odor of spoiled milk. Unless the containers are "virgin," I would hesitate to market honey in them. I would also seek the manufacturer's recommendation for cleaning new containers before packing honey in them. This advice is worth just about what you've paid for it. On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Bob & Liz wrote: > I like many other beekeepers sell gallons in the same container as milk > comes in. They are all my supplier sells. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:16:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Clayton Subject: Asking the Group a Favor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All Beekeepers in the Group.

I am new to the discussion group, but I would like to ask you all to visit my extensive Beekeeping Website for "Novice Beekeepers and Students". I have NOTHING to sell, my interests are in teaching, photography and website design and I would love to have the groups input. My site will be featured this month in the Wall Street Journal in an article called "Education for Adults on the Internet".

 Beekeeping Course

http://www.beemaster.com/honeybee/beehome.htm

I lecture to schools and THIS SEASON at my website, I have over 1600 people on the net follow me as I start over with two new colonies - I call the project "New Beginnings" and I am very excited about the wonderful season ahead.

Please, as professionals and hobbyists, please visit my site and let me know what you think. I really would enjoy input from my piers and by those of you, like Allen Dick that make our hobby and our profession continue through the Internet.

I hope you enjoy my site, I have over 50 pages, 20+ topics and 200 photos relative to Beekeeping alone. I hope you will look and pleas, if you enjoy it - pass it on to all your families, friends and fellow beekeepers.

Thank you for your help.

Here is my Interactive March Newsletter

 March 2001 Newsletter

that's http://www.beemaster.com/honeybee/news0301.html
 

Please let me know if you find it entertaining and I hope you follow my on-line log.  Thank you all so much.

John Clayton
Lakehurst, NJ
honeybee@beemaster.com
  ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:30:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "George J. Biles(Southeastern PA, USA)" Subject: liquifying honey Aaron: Good point. The belt reaches a temp of about 125 degrees, which is very hot to the touch but not dangerously high (I don't think) for the honey. Wrapping the pail with a piece of aluminum flashing and occasional stirring will diperse the heat. When I first got the unit I did not use the flashing wrap and the hot belt began to cut into the pail, but I've not experienced a problem with the heat affecting the honey. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Subject: Report from central Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Went out to check the bees today. Fourteen of fourteen are alive and they seem extraordinarily strong. So many bees that I couldn't see into the frames to evaluate stores and so much snow covering the stands I couldn't heft them. It was warm and they were in a great mood. Everybody got a week's supply of sugar whether they need it or not. They've been raising lots of brood and there are lots of new bees. I'll have to keep a close watch on them until maple bloom. Next week they get sugar and pollen substitute. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:00:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103071515.KAA20430@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Try a used refrigerator, racks removed, lightbulb (100 watt) altered so that it stays on when door closed. Make sure that the compressor is disconnected. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:36:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Luis Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 5 Mar 2001 to 6 Mar 2001 (#2001-65) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks. Greetings from the Canary Islands (Spain) where I am prfesently on a lecture circuit on Liquid Vaseline (FGMO) as an alternate treatment for Varroa. I have followed the Tilia thread with interest and thoiught that I could add a small contribution. About four years ago, while discussing pesticide effects on honeybees with a Virginia resident, I was told that she knew of beautiful Japanesse garden tree that attracted honeybees in large numbers. Curiously, the ground under the tree was platered with dead and sick bees. It seems that the tree proeduced a very attrrative nectar but also a very toxic nectar. The location of the tree was in the vecinity of Fredericksburg, Virginnia. Best regards. Dr. Pedro P. Roedriguez ----- Original Message ----- From: Automatic digest processor To: Recipients of BEE-L digests Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 6:00 AM Subject: BEE-L Digest - 5 Mar 2001 to 6 Mar 2001 (#2001-65) > There are 4 messages totalling 81 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Tilia intoxification? > 2. Melt Belt > 3. EPA call for comments. Any news? > 4. Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:19:07 -0800 > From: Matthew Shepherd > Subject: Re: Tilia intoxification? > > On 3/5/01 at 2:07 PM David L. Green wrote: > > > One more thought: are these trees often sprayed for pests, when they are > >planted along city streets? You may have seen the result of a pesticide kill. > >And this would fit better with the fact that such losses aren't observed with > >Tilia in American forests. City trees are much more apt to be sprayed. > > The trees I have seen this under were all in landscaped gardens in rural areas of Southern England. From contact with the tree maintenance staff, I can be sure that they had not been treated. > > Matthew > > _____________________________________________________________ > Matthew Shepherd > Director, Pollinator Program and Publications > > The Xerces Society > 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 > Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 > Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org > _____________________________________________________________ > The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization > dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the > conservation of invertebrates. > For information and membership details, see our website: > http://www.xerces.org/ > _____________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 08:54:57 -0500 > From: Helen Meyer > Subject: Melt Belt > > A water bed heater works very effectively around both metal and plastic > containers. They can be picked up inexpensively at second hand stores. I > ty mine on with a long bungee cord. > > Helen Meyer > Erin, ON > Canada > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:25:11 -0500 > From: Aaron Morris > Subject: EPA call for comments. Any news? > > The Environmental Protection Agency announced in the Federal Register its > intention to seek public comment on a draft Pesticide Registration (PR) > notice entitled "Guidance for Pesticide Registrants on Bee Precautionary > Labeling". The comment period ends Jan 22, 2001. I have heard nothing > more. Does anyone have an update? > > Aaron Morris - thinking the silence is deafening! > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:41:24 -0500 > From: "George J. Biles (Southeastern PA, USA)" > Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket > > Until last year I used the aforementioned "melt-belt". It does work, and > (per instructions)you do need to put a sleeve of aluminum flashing between > the belt and the bucket: otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) > belt will cut into the bucket. Install it low on the pail and it will > liquify the contents in about 36-48 hours. > > ------------------------------ > > End of BEE-L Digest - 5 Mar 2001 to 6 Mar 2001 (#2001-65) > ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 00:00:41 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Francois Lariviere Subject: Honey Industry Receives Sweet News From U.S. Government MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI . . . Honey Industry Receives Sweet News From U.S. Government WASHINGTON, March 7 /PRNewswire/ -- Domestic honey producers applauded yesterday's announcement by the Department of Commerce that imports of honey from Argentina will now be subject to a 7% tariff upon arrival in the United States. The preliminary determination by Commerce is intended to offset the benefits granted to the honey industry by the government of Argentina through various subsidy programs that Commerce has found in violation of U.S. and international fair trade rules. The 7% tariff, known as a countervailing duty, will be calculated based on the total value of the honey imports as they come into port. Commerce began its investigation on September 29, 2000, when representatives of the U.S. honey industry filed a formal unfair trade action that charged Argentina with excessive government subsidization of its honey industry. Further, according to the petition filed by the American Honey Producers Association (AHPA) and the Sioux Honey Association (SHA), this action by the government of Argentina resulted in market distortions that materially injured the U.S. honey producers. "We are delighted with Commerce's finding that the government of Argentina has unfairly subsidized its honey producers," said AHPA President Richard Adee. "The imposition of offsetting duties on new imports of honey from Argentina will help bring the U.S. market price for honey up to where our members can again make a profit." SHA President Jerry Probst echoed Adee. "Our association and members are gratified by Commerce's preliminary decision on Argentina's unfair subsidy practices. These practices enable their honey producers to dominate our market with below cost pricing. We are counting on the U.S. government and our unfair trade laws to save this important American industry," said Probst. Commerce will now begin the final phase of its countervailing duty investigation, which will result in the issuance of a final duty. Concurrently, the International Trade Commission will begin the final phase of its injury investigation. Typically, final determinations from both agencies are issued 12 to 14 months after the original filing. In the same unfair trade action, AHPA and SHA charged Argentina and China with shipping huge amounts of unfairly traded, low priced honey into the American market, a practice known as "dumping." Commerce will issue its preliminary determination in the dumping investigations by May 4, 2001. The Washington, D.C. law firm of Collier Shannon Scott, PLLC, represents AHPA and SHA, along with Georgetown Economic Services, the firm's economic consulting subsidiary. International trade attorney Michael J. Coursey, a partner at Collier Shannon, heads the legal and economic team. SOURCE American Honey Producers Association and Sioux Honey Association ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 21:06:16 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103071954.OAA02673@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Sorry for the dicussion in °C, I think in this all the time....and I'm too lazy to convert. ==> °C X 1.8 + 32 = °F Bob wrote, > Hello Allen & All, > Allen wrote: > Honey should not be heated . Period. The problem with this statement is that heat (unless we are talking - 273°Kelvin - absolute zero) is relative. In the middle of the Sahara mid day sun, 40°C is cool! A recent consumer type magazine review on the quality of honeys in a tropical country listed a number of brands, and measured HMF for them. The highest recorded levels were found in Organic honeys. Probable reason? High price.... Nailed to the shelf.... Ambient temperature..... 35°C. Heated? Certainly NOT!. HMF levels? 120-180 Mg/Kg. > 100 degrees F. is the limit of warming after that damage occurs. Honey is primarilty a mixture of organic substances, which are constantly changing with time. Like most organic reactions, the higher the temperature, the faster the change happens. Pick any substance in honey, an enzyme, HMF, whatever, and the rate of change (increase, decrease) will be at a different rate to that of another chosen substance. There is no one temperature that honey suddenly becomes damaged at. To be accurate we need to talk about the half life of an enzyme.... or the doubling time of a compound like HMFetc..... *at specific temperatures*. We also need to be aware that this is different for every different honey! An extreme example.... we have a honey here that after heating to 80°C and allowed to cool slowly (2°C loss per hour for the first few hours), has almost no measurable HMF!!! (we're talking < 1mg/kg - HPLC method). The point here is that heat (or more accurately - specific temperatures) have different effects on different honeys and there is no one temperature at which "damage" (I prefer the word "change") instantly occurs....... Unless of course you're selling..... and your honey is below said (pick the one that suit you!) temperature..... and your opposition's isn't....... or maybe you can make your customer think it isn't :-) But as a general rule, you should process your honey with the minimum amount of heat you can. Cheers. Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:05:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Frank Fox Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dear bee-l i am going out of town for several months and will not be able to review any bee-l messages. therefore, i would like to UNSUBSCRIBE for the next 90 days or so. how do i go about doing this? plse. advise. thank you, frank fox >>> Bob & Liz 03/07 7:53 AM >>> Hello All, Regarding the melt belt, George J. Biles wrote, "... otherwise the HOT (no thermostat, unfortunately) belt will cut into the bucket...." Aaron wrote: Well, I'd be concerned then for the effect on the honey. Temperatures hot enough to melt the plastic belt surely will damage the honey. To protect the honey I'd utilize something with a thermostat to assure the honey does not get heated too hot or too long. One possible solution is to use the Walter Kelley *Heat limit control* on page 50 of the 2001 catalog. Plug the belt into the heat limit control and the control into the wall socket. Place the bulb in the five gallon pail. Set the temperature you want and forget. Don't buy a belt heater to use on honey without a thermostat ( as Aaron said earlier). An old immersion heater thermostat can be converted to a heat limit control also. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 05:23:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket Comments: To: peter@airborne.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, Going to have to disagree with you on a couple of points. We most certainly know the temperature when yeasts are killed. Any wine maker is familiar with the temperature 100F. We also know the temperature many other contents of honey are ruined (Honey -E. Crane). To the general public heat is of little problem. To the true health food person the heat is a big concern. Allen has made many valid points. His statement about pasteurized honey being darker than before it was pasteurized is true. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:34:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Midnitebee Subject: George's PINK PAGES March 2001 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George's PINK PAGES March 2001 http://www.cybertours.com/%7Emidnitebee/contentpages/articles.html Regards, Herb/Norma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 06:48:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket Comments: To: peter@airborne.co.nz In-Reply-To: <200103090830.DAA12049@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Allen wrote: > > Honey should not be heated . Period. > > The problem with this statement is that heat (unless we are talking - > 273°Kelvin - absolute zero) is relative... Language always gives problems. Words have different meanings in different disciplines and different places. What I call warming might be considered by some as heating, but most of us think of body temp as warm and anything over that as hotter. By 130 or so we are getting into scalding. Basically hive temperature of 95 degrees or so is a benchmark temperature for honey. This is the maximum natural sustained temperature for honey. > Honey is primarily a mixture of organic substances, which are constantly > changing with time. So much for honey being a mystical natural food. If we ourselves -- the proponents and custodians of honey's good name -- only perceive it that way, I can understand why honey is treated so brutally and being replaced by artificial substitutes. The above concepts are very useful in understanding some aspects of the nature of honey, but we mustn't forget that by that we ourselves (humans) pretty much fit that same description. Most of us think there is more to us than chemistry has been able to describe so far. I would therefore conclude that model is limited in its ability to describe more than some basic mechanical details of life. > There is no one temperature that honey suddenly becomes damaged at. True. > To be > accurate we need to talk about the half life of an enzyme.... or the doubling > time of a compound like HMF etc...... *at specific temperatures*. This is a useful model. But we must remember that science takes things apart very nicely, but doesn't always have enough parts to put them back together properly. > We also need to be aware that this is different for every different honey! > An extreme example.... we have a honey here that after heating to 80°C and > allowed to cool slowly (2°C loss per hour for the first few hours), has > almost no measurable HMF!!! (we're talking < 1mg/kg - HPLC method). HMF is only an indicator, and it is often used as a red herring. We must not let our tools become idols or an understanding of one tiny aspect of the problem cloud our vision of the whole. HMF is a quick and dirt tool to detect gross damage. It has its flaws, since some hones naturally have high HMF. > The point here is that heat (or more accurately - specific temperatures) have > different effects on different honeys and there is no one temperature at > which "damage" (I prefer the word "change") instantly occurs....... If honey is 'changed', is it honey? Let's not forget catalytic effects and the fact that there are thresholds for some changes. Although processors and handlers of honey like to think of the effects of temperature as being on a linear continuous scale, and only accelerating with temperature and time, there are definite thresholds below which some effects simply do not occur. This aspect is crudely illustrated in obvious everyday things like the melting of ice into water. Below 32 F you have ice. Above that you have water. Very different. > Unless of course you're selling..... and your honey is below said (pick the > one that suit you!) temperature..... and your opposition's isn't....... or > maybe you can make your customer think it isn't :-) Ultimately, this is not really about customers or price or marketing. It is about honey and how we think about it and how we treat it. > But as a general rule, you should process your honey with the minimum amount > of heat you can. We are absolutely in agreement. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:31:38 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a large pot and a spacer in the bottom to hold a five gallon pail in water to within an inch or so of the top. On the range, set low, the water gets to about 120F and it takes all day. I am convinced my customers can taste the difference between heated and not. The best description of the overly precessed stuff on the supermarket shelf was "white bread". Sunday is supposed to be in the upper 40's low 50's here in CT and I will pop lids and feed. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:22:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cal French Subject: A taste of polypro In-Reply-To: <200103090500.AAA07642@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From my camping and backpacking experience I know this: If you pour very hot water into a polypro waterbottle, the water will taste strange after it has cooled. Very hot water left in the metal pan it was boiled in will not have that "plasticky" taste when it cools. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:19:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: musings: spring wildflowers and weeds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had a professor once who told the class that a weed is any plant that is growing where it is not supposed to be or not wanted. The example he gave was that a stalk of corn in a tomato field is a weed. The last couple of days I have been observing which flowers the honeybees are working on. Two days ago I had Dr. Stephan Hatch, a botanist at Texas A&M University, accompany me and identify some of the plants for me. He told me that most of the plants we were looking at were considered weeds that would thrive in an overgrazed pasture. It is a beautiful sight to see a large patch of wildflowers with bees busily working in them. When you stand still and start looking for motion, you soon discover that there a many many bees working in an area that is attractive to them. Across Joe Routt Boulevard, fairly close to the George Bush Presidential Library, west of the Reed Arena, and near the new tennis courts is a large field/meadow on the side of a small creek. This meadow contains several large patches of Spring Beauty (Campestris virginiaca), a beautiful, small pale pink to white flower, about 2 cm across. The blossoms were just full of bees flying from flower to flower gathering nectar. I also observed a few bees working the extra-floral nectaries of vetch (Vicia sativa). They did not go to the flowers, but to the nectaries at the stem nodes. I guess those plants don't need to be pollinated by bees, but it makes be wonder what the nectaries are for. We saw a very small amount (just a couple of bees)! at work in the Chickweed and the Mouse's Ear (Cerastrium species), where those flowers were exceptionally numerous. The little white flowers are so small that it's hard to believe there could be very much nectar in them. Another plant that was very attractive was a wild mustard with yellow flowers (Brassica). It had not only honey bees but hover flies (Syrphidae) visiting it. The other two plants in bloom that had furious foraging activity were dewberries (Rubus trivialis) and Burford holly (Ilex). There is a nice large patch of dewberries (that's what we call wild blackberries here in Texas) on the south facing slope of the creek bed near where Joe Routt Boulevard and Discovery Drive intersect. Since the exposure is perfect for the sun to hit it at this time of year, these dewberries are in full bloom, while this plant in other locations is not yet in bloom. The ornamental Burford holly is planted in building landscapes in many places in our town, and particularly at the university, and it is in full bloom right now too, with its small nondescript greenish flowers that are so pungent and attractive to bees. We have a ring of them completely surrounding the parking lot at my work. I even have one planted in front of my home since they do so well in our area. Curtis Farmer sent me an email letting me know that the bee activity on the hollies! around his house is so furious that it almost looks like they are swarming. I even got a telephone call from a homeowner yesterday who thought they had a swarm of bees in their holly bush. I explained to her that they are only foraging bees and that they will go away after the plants finish blooming in a couple of weeks (maybe sooner). There is no need to be fearful of bees that are foraging, as long as you don't swat at them or try to kill them. You can stand right next to them and watch them with no fear, and they will pay absolutely no attention to you. They are not defending their "home" and they are intent on getting the "goodies" from the flowers. The fragrances of the flowers in full bloom that the bees are visiting right now are very strong. Even I (with my "bad nose") can easily smell them on the air. I have heard it said (ref. Adrian Wenner's posts) that bees do most of their foraging orientation based on the odors that the scout bees bring back to the hiv! e. The bees that have been "danced to" pick up the scent from the dan catch the scent on the air and follow it to the most concentrated source of the smell. There they will find flowers reflecting ultraviolet radiation that visually shows them exactly where to go to get the nectar or pollen they are seeking--at least that's my understanding of the theory about how it happens. My uncle in California tells me that in his opinion this theory makes more sense than any of the others he's heard. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:51:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/01 11:53:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << Language always gives problems. Words have different meanings in different disciplines and different places. What I call warming might be considered by some as heating, but most of us think of body temp as warm and anything over that as hotter. By 130 or so we are getting into scalding. Basically hive temperature of 95 degrees or so is a benchmark temperature for honey. This is the maximum natural sustained temperature for honey. >> That's about what I figured. I had a lady insist on honey that had never been over 95 degrees. I told her she'd have to go to Alberta for it. The honey in a top super here in the south of the USA, can easily be 110 on a sunny summer day. My unheated/uncooled warehouse building can get hotter. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:45:51 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103091245.HAA15197@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > We most certainly >know the temperature when yeasts are killed. Any wine maker is familiar with >the temperature 100F. We also know the temperature many other contents of >honey are ruined (Honey - E. Crane). The processes in question are chemical reactions. The extent to which they proceed - how much of the reactants get converted to how much products - depends on not only the T but also the t. Even the crudest rule of thumb for how much a chemical reaction is promoted by heating must include an indication of both temp AND time. In order to begin thinking about such matters one must form some concept of a T-t combination. Taking the matter even further away from simple rules-of-thumb is the fact that in nearly all actual cases these two influences are not simply reciprocal so you can't use anything like "double the temp and that'll let me halve the time". Few of the responses are linear, so that doubled time may give, say, quadrupled extent of reaction; dependences on temp are exponential, but the steepness of the graph differs from one reaction to another; etc. This is an area of physical chemistry & biochemistry in which rules of thumb are very hard to come by. What you end up with, where possible, is empirical rules based on a lot of actual measurements and a margin for safety e.g. 'all microbes are killed by steam at 121 C for 20min.' (a common rule of thumb for autoclaving). More delicate matters, which are the main interest in processing honey, are more tricky. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:13:12 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket Comments: To: Allen Dick In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > > We also need to be aware that this is different for every different > > honey! An extreme example.... we have a honey here that after heating to > > 80°C and allowed to cool slowly (2°C loss per hour for the first few hours), > > has almost no measurable HMF!!! (we're talking < 1mg/kg - HPLC method). > > HMF is only an indicator, and it is often used as a red herring. We must not > let our tools become idols or an understanding of one tiny aspect of the > problem cloud our vision of the whole. HMF is a quick and dirt tool to detect > gross damage. It has its flaws, since some hones naturally have high HMF. Allen, you grabbed the detail and missed the message. I could have cited any one of a number of examples of specific component behaviour in a specific honey, but chose HMF because it is so widely discussed. The point is still that the real, measurable changes that happen in honey, increase in speed with increases in temperature (apart from the killing of yeast - as pointed out by Bob) - but are still occurring at hive temperatures. In fact hive temperatures (we data logged over 38°C in honey supers) are too high in my opinion for long term storage of honey. 6 months at these temperatures causes far greater change than 5 minutes at 63° e.g. an order of magnitude difference for colour change. And this is a real problem for producers in warmer climates. Most statements about "lack of heating" in their honey come from people that don't actually have any other point of difference in selling their product. Most (but certainly not all) producers/processors don't cause a significant degradation in the quality of the product from heat alone. Certainly not the damage that used to occur back in the days before pumps, capping rendering systems like spin floats, plate heat exchangers for flash heating etc. Today I believe far more damage is done by microfiltering the flavour and microscopic particles out, and as Allen said, (and I am in complete agreement with him) it is no longer honey. But this is a feature of the "generic honey" menatlity market in the USA. Very little difference at the supermarket level, almost no creamed honey at all. If, as pointed out, North Am honeys are mostly fast crystallizing, then you have been painted into a corner by the promotion of sparklingly clear, light coloured, liquid honeys, devoid of all pollen, flavour and turbidity - and the holding up of these as the ideal. Then to achieve this "ideal" product in the mass market, you have to ultra filter, ultra heat treat etc..... Your marketers have done you no favours at all. In this greater picture, of a difficult market, the constant referring to "heat treatment" as the main point of difference indicates to me that the average honey marketer does not have a clue about the real potential differences of the honeys that can be produced from his/her hives, and how to go about promoting/marketing them. To further make generalized, sweeping and incorrect statements regarding "heat" only furthers my belief in their lack of understanding of the true qualities of their product. Check out our website for further insights into what we think about honey. I need to now take a very carefull climb down off my my soapbox..... before I fall off! (or get pulled off.......) :-) Cheers, Peter _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:50:37 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Tilia intoxification? Comments: To: mdshepherd@xerces.org In-Reply-To: <200103051855.NAA20042@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200103051855.NAA20042@listserv.albany.edu>, Matthew Shepherd writes >I'm originally from England, where on several occasions I have seen the= > ground beneath Tilia trees (in England, known as lime or pry, in the U.S.,= > linden or basswood) scattered with dead bees. I have seen this under both= > small-leaf lime (Tilia cordata) and hybrid European lime (Tilia europea).= > The dead bees certainly included both honey bees and bumble bees, and may= > have included other species. I have been told that the bees find Tilia= > nectar irresistible, and fall to the ground intoxicated after a feeding= > frenzy. Starvation. The nectar *is* irresistible. Lime trees are found so often in towns where there is little else for bees. Once there, they repeatedly attempt to get nectar and there are too many insects going after the same thing. The tree cannot produce fast enough. In a rural area I can only presume they are *so* attractive the bees keep attempting to get nectar in spite of getting so little until they run out of fuel to fly and keep warm. Research showed empty honey stomachs in the dead bees. Maybe you could dissect one and check the contents when you next see this. Unfortunately old myths die hard in beekeeping. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:07:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Hughes Subject: Apiary Lease Agreement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The owners of the property where I had some bees sold it and moved during the winter. The new owners at first refused to let me get my bees claiming that they came with the property. They finially gave in after a confrontation, which I will not get into here. I was wondering if any one on the list would like to share any agreements for samples. Bill Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:03:37 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Liquifiying honey in solar honey melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Since we are discussing liquefying honey would someone comment on using = solar honey melters? I believe the ABJ discusses building one. Anyone = with any experience using these? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:47:13 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: adulteration of honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >am talking here about the output of honest producers and packers and not >considering the impact of adulteration, which is rampant worldwide > I understand that as I write, a shipment >of NZ manuka honey is in detention in Canada, since it tested positive for >around seven percent corn syrup. > This is a very serious statement. More information please. I have always explained to members of the public that it is illegal to add any substance to honey and still call it honey and that these laws were introduced in the United States and Australia (do not have any data on other countries) as a response to the adulteration of honeys by addition of sugar substitutes. Thus, although many members of the public still believe main-stream honey contains glycerine, I assure them that this is no longer permitted and that no commercial honey packer would add "fillers" to honey today. I do however tell them that the reason they can taste the difference between my honey and the supermarket brands is that honey packers do treat their honey to ensure a long shelf life whereas my honey will candy, which is a totally natural process and which can be reversed by placing jars in hot water. (I warn them against using microwave ovens.) I am surprised that Allen considers adulteration to be rampant worldwide. If a New Zealand shipment has been detected as adulterated with corn syrup, I trust that investigation of those responsible will be followed up by prosecution. I do remember the "honey analogue" announcement some year back and the swift assurances that laboratory tests can detect attempts to pass off such products as honey. Perhaps it may be productive to review what tests are conducted, and by whom, to ensure that "honey is honey". IMHO this is certainly more relevant than the relative merits of "organic" honey as against the honey produced by honest producers and packers. Betty McAdam Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket In-Reply-To: <200103092226.RAA07080@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Basically hive temperature of 95 degrees or so is a benchmark temperature for > honey. This is the maximum natural sustained temperature for honey. >> > > That's about what I figured. I had a lady insist on honey that had never > been over 95 degrees. I told her she'd have to go to Alberta for it. The > honey in a top super here in the south of the USA, can easily be 110 on a > sunny summer day. My unheated/uncooled warehouse building can get hotter. That's interesting. I was under the impression that bees controlled the temperatures in their hives better than that. For that matter, though, supers on managed hives and warehouses are not examples of natural conditions, and that was what I was using as a natural standard of comparison. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I couldn't find the remote control to the remote control. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Clayton Subject: Beemaster's Website Hello Group :) About a week ago I asked members of the group to visit my beekeeping website for beginners and students at www.beemaster.com/honeybee/beehome.htm and many of you wrote back notifying me that I had sent the message in HTML format. I appologize for the error, I have never been part of a discussion group before and I needed to work some kinks out. Briefly, my site is 50+ pages, 20+ topics and 200+ photos all related to beekeeping and again, is targeted at new-comers to this wonderful hobby/profession of Beekeeping. My full site's homepage www.beemaster.com greatly expands my different hobbies and interests, but my real goal is to promote Beekeeping from a Hobbyist point of view. Today, I received an email that trashed my entire site for a few spelling errors. The writer said "How can we take you serious when you have spelling errors on your site?". My reply is two-fold. 1) The term "Beemaster" is a domain name - short and simple. I am a hobbyist with a strong passion to promote beekeeping thru an easy to navagate and entertaining format. I have spent nearly 5 years creating and updating my site and currently have over 1900 people around the globe following my 2001 Monthly Newsletter and I receive nearly 200 emails daily. March issue of my Newsletter www.beemaster.com/honeybee/news0301.html starts an interactive project where ( from scratch ) my growing newsletter list of followers ( many of whom are NOT beekeepers, they are students, teachers, children, parents, etc.. )and have never before been exposed to beekeeping, now have a chance to see a Season in the life of a New Colony from a hobbyist prospective. 2) I have nothing to sell, no ads of any kind and I don't feel my site deserves trashing because of a few spelling errors that are easily corrected. This narrow minded person could not see my site for it's content and was upset at the term Beemaster. I know most of you are serious and committed beekeepers and processors and I think of all of you as beemasters. But I also know that Beekeeping has room for anyone with passion to see the honeybee flurrish. I ask the group again ( now that I think I have the HTML thing solved ) to please check out my Beekeeping site and Newsletter. I appriciate any feedback from the group. But please, view the content and value of the site and DON'T get petty on a few spelling errors, I believe most of you can see beyond such petty and correctable mistakes. Repectfully, John Clayton Lakehurst, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Honey Outside the Box Comments: To: peter@airborne.co.nz In-Reply-To: <200103100053.TAA11116@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Allen, you grabbed the detail and missed the message. I could have cited any > one of a number of examples of specific component behaviour in a specific > honey, but chose HMF because it is so widely discussed. No. I think I got your point, and I also think your response illustrated one of my points better than I ever could: (we) commercial honey producers and handlers are thinking inside a box. The box is shaped by what is easily, conveniently, cheaply and universally feasible and the boundaries of that box are what is currently practiced and demanded. Incomplete and selected science provides an illusion of solidity to the walls to that box. Whenever regulators and consumers devise and enforce a new test or criterion to detect abuse of honey, the box expands, grudgingly, by only that much. We know that there is much more to the subject than what lies in this familiar cube, but most of us don't want to go there until we are forced to do so -- and even then we resist. When confronted with the inadequacy of our understanding and methods, we fall back on straw man arguments that bring the debate back inside the familiar box. It usually works. Many of us -- maybe all of us if we open our minds for a moment -- think that honey is not just a bunch of chemicals any more than we think that people are just a bunch of chemicals, however those of us who are faced with producing and handling honey must compromise our views to be able to function daily -- and defend our compromised position. Simple reality, short-term considerations and focus on maximizing profit often dictate that we must adopt practices that are less than ideal. The real problem IMO shows up when we convince ourselves that we cannot and should not somehow, someday, do better. Most of us start out idealistic but somewhere we lose our innocence. Without idealism, over time, bad practice drives out good and the common denominator settles lower. Cynicism takes over: blending and filtering, heat darkening, and loss of volatiles in extracting rooms and melting boxes and tanks are accepted as perfectly 'normal'. Even adulteration no longer draws outrage as many market participants quietly try to figure out how much they can get away with. I'm afraid that commercial honey producers and packers the world over are the worst enemies honey could have, due to their insistence on regarding honey as a just a commercial product. Our casual familiarity, monetary focus and consequent lack of respect for this amazing and delicate treasure allow us to defile it daily, while claiming to be custodians of its quality and purity. Most amateurs follow along with the thinking and those who don't often fail to do so out of ignorance, not enlightenment. I realise that there are many who think in the mechanistic terms that are used to excuse what is going on, and I'm hoping to convince them to think differently. I also understand perfectly well what you are saying. I am merely saying that this is not the whole story and we can't pretend that it is. > The point is still that the real, measurable changes that happen in honey, > increase in speed with increases in temperature (apart from the killing of > yeast - as pointed out by Bob) - but are still occurring at hive > temperatures. In fact hive temperatures (we data logged over 38°C in honey > supers) are too high in my opinion for long term storage of honey. 6 months > at these temperatures causes far greater change than 5 minutes at 63° e.g. an > order of magnitude difference for colour change. And this is a real problem > for producers in warmer climates. Sorry. What I see here is that -- if what you and Dave say is true -- your hives and warehouses are too hot and need redesign, along with commercial honey handling and packing thinking and practice. I started out thinking that the processing of honey is flawed, and now I am learning that perhaps the traditional housing we use for our livestock is not properly designed for hot areas of the world. We know it is not adequate for cold areas like Alberta at some times of year. I think you are arguing that since the honey receives abuse in some hives, that lesser abuse in the honey house and packing plant is justified. I don't see this as a valid argument. Maybe David Eyre's ventilated hives are what is required -- and I owe him an apology. > Most statements about "lack of heating" in their honey come from people that > don't actually have any other point of difference in selling their product. I am not convinced of that. It appears to me that your approach is that of an engineer/marketer. There are many other ways to view honey. Although I tend to give the organic guys a hard ride for fuzzy thinking, I have a lot of respect for their ideas. I am regretting my lack of poetic talent at this moment. I think a poet is needed to say some of what I am trying to express. > Most (but certainly not all) producers/processors don't cause a significant > degradation in the quality of the product from heat alone. Certainly not the > damage that used to occur back in the days before pumps, capping rendering > systems like spin floats, plate heat exchangers for flash heating etc. Today > I believe far more damage is done by microfiltering the flavour and > microscopic particles out, and as Allen said, (and I am in complete agreement > with him) it is no longer honey. Although we do agree on many important points -- including that one -- we are talking two different languages and, at least in what we are publicly expounding here, have two different philosophies. As a honey producer and part owner of a large honey producing plant, I have to understand and even argue convincingly the viewpoint you are expressing in order to function. I'm just stepping back here and trying to be objective. >...you have been painted into a corner by the promotion of sparklingly clear, > light coloured, liquid honeys, devoid of all pollen, flavour and turbidity - > and the holding up of these as the ideal. Then to achieve this "ideal" > product in the mass market, you have to ultra filter, ultra heat treat > etc..... Your marketers have done you no favours at all. We do agree. The path from here is downward and increasingly slippery. If we embrace the idea -- as so many of us seem to -- that honey is just a bunch of chemicals and a mass market item and can be manipulated any convenient way that does not break the rules in any detectable way, we will soon get to zero market share -- and deserve it. Our only hope is to embrace the understanding that honey is a mystical, magical substance and treat it and handle and market it that way. > In this greater picture, of a difficult market, the constant referring to > "heat treatment" as the main point of difference indicates to me that the > average honey marketer does not have a clue about the real potential > differences of the honeys that can be produced from his/her hives, and how to > go about promoting/marketing them. To further make generalized, sweeping and > incorrect statements regarding "heat" only furthers my belief in their lack > of understanding of the true qualities of their product. If I could convince you just to take another look at heat, maybe we could be in complete agreement. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I went down the street to the 24-hour grocery. When I got there, the guy was locking the front door. I said, "Hey, the sign says you're open 24 hours." He said, "Yes, but not in a row." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:06:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: adulteration of honey In-Reply-To: <200103101520.KAA04731@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is a very serious statement. More information please. That's all I have at present. I'm sure more will come out, but you'll have to keep your ear to the ground. These issues are a bit sensitive and they tend to be covered up "for the good of the industry". > I am surprised that Allen considers adulteration to be rampant worldwide. If > a New Zealand shipment has been detected as adulterated with corn syrup, I > trust that investigation of those responsible will be followed up by > prosecution. We'll see. A slap on the wrist is the usual punishment -- when a wink and a nod is not forthcoming. The industry always suffers far more than the perpetrator. > Perhaps it may be productive to review what tests are conducted, and by > whom, to ensure that "honey is honey". IMHO this is certainly more relevant > than the relative merits of "organic" honey as against the honey produced by > honest producers and packers. Yup, but the cheaters are always just ahead of the watchdogs. IMO, adulteration is the biggest worldwide problem for legitimate honey producers. The amount of cheap sweeteners masquerading as honey swell the volume by about the amount that is necessary to drive the price of honey down close to the price of those sweeteners. A total stopping of adulteration would double honey prices overnight and solve the second worst problem -- low prices. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I had a friend who was a clown. When he died, all his friends went to the funeral in one car. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:08:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Liquifiying honey in solar honey melter In-Reply-To: <200103101515.KAA04616@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since we are discussing liquefying honey would someone comment on using > solar honey melters? I believe the ABJ discusses building one. Anyone > with any experience using these? We've been talking controlled temperature and the effects on honey. Since solar melters lack controls AFAIK, how much heat are you willing to use? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- When I turned two I was really anxious, because I'd doubled my age in a year. I thought, if this keeps up, by the time I'm six I'll be ninety. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:14:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement In-Reply-To: <200103101510.KAA04473@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed what about just tagging your hives with a "property of" tag with your name and phone number? At 08:07 AM 3/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >The owners of the property where I had some bees sold it and moved during >the winter. The new owners at first refused to let me get my bees claiming >that they came with the property. They finially gave in after a >confrontation, which I will not get into here. I was wondering if any one >on the list would like to share any agreements for samples. > >Bill Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:22:02 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Liquifiying honey in solar honey melter In-Reply-To: <200103101515.KAA04619@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've never used or built a solar heater for the express purpose of liquifying honey. However, I was in the solar industry for awhile and suggest that, while the project is certainly doable, controlling the temperature will be harder than you might imagine. A closed solar collector will reach temperatures well above boiling (water) in no time flat. Several factors will impinge on the temperatures achieved inside the collector: angle to which the collector surface is raised; size of the collector aperature; time of year (sun angle); cloud cover; and probably most important for this problem, the amount of air bled from the system to control the temperature. The simplest system would be to put the honey in a non-reflective container and leave it in the sun. You would have no control whatever over the temperatures achieved. Convection would quickly begin since the honey on the sun-facing surface would liquify first and begin to move. Whether that movement would be sufficient to keep the honey temperature near its melting point could be easily ascertained by installing a recording thermometer on the sun side near the top of the container. However, once the bulk of the honey in the container becomes liquid, the temperature of all of the honey should rise fairly rapidly. A solar collector in which a container of honey is placed (and shaded from direct insolation) and which uses air as the medium with which to heat the honey can be built inexpensively. Even if the temperature of the air in the box becomes much higher than the "safe" temperature of honey, I _suspect_ the higher air temperature will not do much damage since the amount of heat carried in the air is far less than the amount of heat which honey is capable of absorbing. However, until the honey liquifies and begins to move (convection) or after the upper limit temperature (100F-115F) has been achieved in the honey container, so long as there is sun, the temperature of the honey will continue to rise. Ideally, a air based collector for this purpose will have an unrestricted source of air at the intake (bottom) and a thermostatically controlled valve (louvre) at the top where the air temperature is sampled near the honey container. Once again, the reservoir of honey should not be in direct sunlight. The control should be set so that there is free flow of air through the collector once the honey reaches the desired temperature. The temperature of the air moving freely through the collector will be only slightly higher than ambient air temperature. The down side: if honey in a collector is not completely liquified during the day and is left in the collector after the sun sets, cooling in the collector will be rapid via radiation to the sky. This phenomenon can be controlled by covering the collector glass with an opaque material. I should think the best solution would be to use a liquid collector (water or glycol), a thermostatic control which keeps a water bath at the terminal temperature desired, and a reservoir in which the sealed honey containers can be submerged. If the collector can be situated below the reservoir, a thermosyphon will occur in a closed loop and no pump will be required. The construction cost of such a system could be considerable. However, if built out of appropriate materials, it should have very low maintenance and $0 operating costs. In the long run, a water bath system should do the job more efficiently than an air system. Maybe I'll work on it. On Sat, 10 Mar 2001, huestis wrote: > Hi all, > > Since we are discussing liquefying honey would someone comment on using = > solar honey melters? --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:11:33 +0000 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Honey Adulteration - Depends where you are coming from! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding the subject of adulteration - Betty McAdam seems surprised that adulteration of honey "is rampant". 1. Take a look at the dossier produced by the SPMF (Union of French Prof. Honey Producers) at: http://www.apiservices.com/spmf/adulteration.htm 2. Find out about the hassles that were gone through to try and protect honey when the latest Codex.a. was being discussed and put in place. 3. Look at the new European Union Honey Directive that is going through its final stages. 4.Search in the archives of BEE-L for my comments on Ultra filtration of Honey. Sorry I can not link the above as it is difficult to present in a concise manner, and if one has real interest then a little searching isn't too hard! These will show how honey producers have had and are having a very hard time trying to protect the basic product against a large complex industry that uses honey but has not the same need to protect its "characteristics" - in fact very often it is in their interest to be able to undermine the regulations that define what honey is or should be. Depending on what it is used for, protecting certain chemical/ physical properties associated with honey is a plain hindrance - so arguments such as "ultra filtration is needed so as to remove debris" are used, hard luck that it also removes one of the ways of determining geographical provenance, also debris from adulterating material, plus evidence of fermentation. If a honey like product is required by the "market" , to be sold as honey then there is always going to be somebody to supply, and if the "packer" can change the rules to allow it then they will try. This was evident in the "discussions" that took place between the so called powerful "Anglo-Saxon" honey packers who imported vast tonnage of honey and the "Latin countries" in E.U. who are considered as producers over here.(very interesting to listen to the position taken up by the English - "yes" to ultra filtration etc. and the position taken up by the French/Italian/Spanish producers). I hope that beekeepers in England do not take offense - non meant, but I have pointed out several times in relevant meetings - "this is where European problems are being discussed and there is no body representing the English beekeeper" (Where is the representation that should be sent to the European Professional Beekeepers Association meetings - even Sweden sends a delegate, in fact two!) Oops! deviation, but it makes the point that the industry wishing for something to happen lobby, and lobby hard. They are not going to wake up the opposition - tough if the beekeepers can't be bothered to protect or just make a feeble complaint when it is too late. It was impossible to stop the inclusion of many points that were put forward by U.S. packers lobby during the last Codex.a. agreement due to the position of "If you don't agree then there will be no agreement" - and seeing that the previous state of affairs was diabolical, the honey producers "were over a barrel". The E.U. in its deliberations for the new directive was also caught as if the regulations were tighter than the Codex a.there was always the possibility of a complaint being presented as contravention against free trade and GATT etc.! Anyway, why worry , the client only likes clear, shiny, liquid honey - so we have got to supply it! (Who mentioned Old Wives Tales) - even though its not honey! (What, rumours again!! Its not cricket ) - except after the latest display on the field, maybe that doesn't hold either!) Peter ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:22:06 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Liquifiying honey in solar honey melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/01 5:04:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG writes: > I've never used or built a solar heater for the express purpose of > liquifying honey. However, I was in the solar industry for awhile and > suggest that, while the project is certainly doable, controlling the > temperature will be harder than you might imagine. > There is a device called a sol-a-vent sold in gardening catalogs for the purpose of venting excess heat from garden coldframes. It lifts a lightwieght panel or a counterbalanced sash. It might work for the purpose of a solar honey melter. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Hughes Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement In-Reply-To: <200103102203.RAA12742@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have my Tennessee Registration number burned into the equipment. This helped when they called the cops. And they relented. But if they had not the police could have done nothing. Whereas a signed agreement would at least be proof if you had to go to court. -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Rob Green Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2001 1:15 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement what about just tagging your hives with a "property of" tag with your name and phone number? A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:04:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, I would think a agreement which you wrote up and signed by both parties and dated would serve your purpose. The bee books have got many sample pollination contracts but I don't recall a yard lease agreement right now but if I find one I will post. I have never had a person want to keep my hives. I have had plenty want the hives removed (yesterday!). I have also been told they are going to burn the hives if they are not moved. I politely tell the land owner to go ahead. Not only is arson a felony its destruction of my property and he will have to pay for the hives he burns in the end. A case of honey has solved many a dispute. All my equipment is branded with my brand. I would have told the new land owner *politely* if they didn't want to let me come in and remove my property I would be back tomorrow (with the sheriff) and they better have a bill of sale for beehives with my registered brand. I personally have never used apiary lease agreements as land owners are reluctant about signing binding agreements. I never argue with land owners wanting me to move the bees. I move the bees. I never try to talk a land owner into putting bees on his land. I ask politely and if he says no I keep looking. I offer a jar of honey when I introduce myself. and go get a case if they ok the deal as a agreement binder. If they say they don't want bees on their property I don't even ask why. I do ask if they know of a land owner which might want bees on his land. I personally like locations from farmers better than *city folks* because many farmers will let you dig a few ruts if you have to get in to feed bees. They cut ruts trying to feed the cattle so they understand. Farmers have also got equipment to pull you out if you do get stuck which saves wrecker bills. I don't like locations I have to drive thru the peoples yard to get to. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:12:59 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- > I have my Tennessee Registration number burned into the equipment. This > helped when they called the cops. And they relented. But if they had not > the police could have done nothing. Whereas a signed agreement would at > least be proof if you had to go to court. now i know what they mean when they say usa is a lawyer's paradise!!!! that may sound facetious but is not intended. in my view u r creating a rod for your own back if u want to pursue an apiary lease agmnt. most property owners wld probably tell u to sod off, which wld limit the places u cld put your hives. the kind that signed wld probably be a pedantic type who wld make your beekeeping miserable anyway. here, all property transactions have a sale & purchase agmnt, a section of which is "chattels". that includes things like: tv antenna, curtains, water pumps, etc. in other words, if the hives r not mentioned as chattels they don't go with the sale. end of story! a quick call from the previous property owner (whom i assume u were on good terms with) wld also confirm the hives were not part of the sale. end of story! your rego number is engraved on all your equipment. end of story! i'm not saying all property owners r wonderful people, but an apiary lease agmnt isn't worth the paper it's printed on. your time is better spent going out & finding a property owner u get along with.... & getting on with your beekeeping. i hope things work out well, mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:40:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Liquifiying honey in solar honey melter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> Since we are discussing liquefying honey would someone comment on using >> solar honey melters? I believe the ABJ discusses building one. Anyone >> with any experience using these? > >We've been talking controlled temperature and the effects on honey. Since solar >melters lack controls AFAIK, how much heat are you willing to use? I have one. It lacks controls, but I only use it for preheating. It holds two barrels (each one 209 litres = 55 US gallons = 45 imperial gallons. Having different gallons is a big incentive to go metric), or many pails. I built it to liquefy barrels of corn syrup which had granulated. However, I found that it would not do this fast enough in March when I needed them. We rarely had daytime temps above freezing, and insufficient sun. All sides are insulated except bottom. South side and top are big thermopanes that I had salvaged, these are covered with styrofoam at night or sunless conditions. In summer or fall I can put about 500 kg (1100 pounds) of honey in it and after one sunny day the honey is fairly well melted (but not completely). Then I put it in a water jacketed bottling tank with a thermostat. After two sunny days the honey would be completely melted (I did this once), but I rotated the pails on the second day (bottom layer to top and front to back). I heartily agree with Peter Bray's comment that we are slaves to a North American market that wants liquid honey. It is worse in eastern Canada than in the west. I sell three or four times more liquid honey than creamed. I don't get complaints about overheated honey (but I personally think it IS overheated). But I do get complaints if honey ever starts to granulate on the store shelf, both from consumers and retailers. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:32:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Beemaster's Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, John wrote: Today, I received an email that trashed my entire site for a few spelling errors. I looked at your site today and think it admirable you are willing to share your beekeeping experiances. Do what you are doing and don't let a few emails upset you. I didn't see a listing of your past beekeeping experiance but doesn't matter to me any way. The number of hives a beekeeper takes care of is a poor measure of a beekeepers skill. Doing a two queen hive for all to see will prove interesting. I do not do two queens in residential areas but maybe yours will work out. Thinking your site will be helpful to beekeepers I will offer advice if (when) you get in trouble. Good luck with the site and the pictures are excellent. Be honest about problems and try not to paint beekeeping as easy. New beekeepers need to see exactly what goes right this year AND what goes wrong. I don't believe the bees always do as the books say. Ask the Bee-L list for advice if (when) you encounter problems. I certainly have got things to learn about bees and beekeeping even after all these years and advice comes quickly on Bee-L. It is for you to sort out the best solution. Just because you read the information on Bee-L or in a book doesn't mean the information will be right in your situation. Happy Beekeeping! Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:29:47 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lewis Subject: Filtering honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Straining and filtering seem to be used synonymously when dealing with honey. What is the difference between straining, filtering and ultra filtering honey? John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:44:00 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Queenless and in need of one MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today was beautiful here in Central Ga. So I took the time to check my two hives. One is doing grand--Id guess I have between 25k and 30k bees, the other--well the numbers were not what I expected and then towards the bottom I found a couple emergency queen cells. I dont know how well these will work and it was recommended to me to see if I could get a queen. I realize that its really early in the season and the temps are unpredictable. Any ideas out there-especially from those in the Southern states. I was also thinking I could also take a frame of brood from my strong hive and place it in with the weak hive and give them more of a chance to convert some cells--especially If I was to give them some uncapped brood. I could use some advice here folks--and QUICK as I would guess there has been no new eggs in this hive for 7-10 days. I could not find the queen-I assume either death or just poor stock (she was less than a full year old), though I suppose she could still be in there. TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:23:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Filtering honey Comments: cc: lewis@SUVA.IS.COM.FJ In-Reply-To: <200103112059.PAA04226@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My take is: Straining- straining throuugh a screen, sieve, cloth or other filtering device that the honey passes freely through, pushed only by gravity. Large pieces of debris are removed, but tiny wax particles and pollen remain in the honey, and may rise to the surface of the honey to be later skimmed. May be done on cold (Room temperature) honey, or on honey warmed to speed things up. Filtering. A more rigourous fitration process, using finer straining mediums, and requiring pressure or pumping to press the honey through the filter. Heat must be used to keep things flowing. All wax particles are removed, and most or all of the pollen is removed. Micro filtration. Extremely fine filtration, using highly specialized equipment that removes even extremely tiny pieces of wax and debris, and all traces of pollen. Gives you a very bright, clear pretty product that is very slow to crystallize. Of course these are inly my impressions, and anyone else is free to create their own definitions- or even to refine mine- Whatcha think? Ellen Lewis wrote: Straining and filtering seem to be used synonymously when dealing with honey. What is the difference between straining, filtering and ultra filtering honey? John ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:19:11 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Liquifying crystallized honey in 5 gal bucket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/01 10:36:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > That's interesting. I was under the impression that bees controlled the > temperatures in their hives better than that. > Brood area only. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:38:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Queenless and in need of one In-Reply-To: <200103120828.DAA16954@listserv.albany.edu>; from MORRISTH@AOL.COM on Sun, Mar 11, 2001 at 11:44:00PM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I was also thinking I could also take a frame of brood from my strong hive > and place it in with the weak hive and give them more of a chance to convert > some cells--especially If I was to give them some uncapped brood. > I would move a frame over from the strong hives. This will give you a little more time to work things out. Let the cell hatch, and let them pull out anything they want from the frame you give them. If they can produce a laying queen then you are fine until the breeders can ship you a quality queen. The brood that hatches from the frames will become the young nurse bees that will make queen introduction easier. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:09:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Conditions in CT USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of 12 hives checked during yesterdays brief temperature excursion above 45 degreesF 11 were strong one was dead. The dead one looks like a starveout as all the honey was on one side all the bees on another heads in empty cells etc. Fall treatment was those leaky plastic formic gel packets. Of four hives at my home that I should have taken as losses in the fall there is one survivor and I moved the honey closer to the bees. Last fall hard killing frosts came late and I got to witness just how much trouble yellow jackets could be. On one of the hives you could easily count 50 a minute coming and going. I expected heavier losses because we had such a wet dismal summer and smaller colonies going into fall. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 08:31:10 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Conditions in CT USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, The dead one looks like a starveout as all the honey was on one side all the bees on another heads in empty cells > etc. I agree. Fall treatment was those leaky plastic formic gel packets. I would be checking before long for varroa. All beekeepers in our area which used those packets are reporting high infestations of varroa comming out of winter. Last fall hard killing frosts came late and I got to witness just how much trouble yellow jackets could be. On one of the hives you could easily count> 50 a minute coming and going. I am in a high yellow jacket area. In my opinion the above hive had other problems and the yellow jackets were taking advantage of the situation. I expected heavier losses because we had such a wet dismal summer and smaller colonies going into fall. The weather is easy to blame but almost all hives will survive if properly prepared and disease AND MITE free. I don't know your situation and have only added my opinion to try and help. Many beekeepers in the U.S. have let the Fluvalinate resistant mites slip up on them and are experiencing huge losses. Many had huge infestations of varroa last fall when they switched to the *Apicure* from *Apistan*. I will listen to beekeepers which can tell me their mite counts before putting in the *apicure* and the mite counts(sticky board)after the treatment period. All others should consider what I am saying if they are seeing deadouts or unusually small populations of bees coming out of winter. Without testing how can any beekeeper tell if their treatment worked? All beekeepers using Coumaphos should start testing for Coumaphos resistant mites (in my opinion) also. Coumaphos resistant mites showed up fast in Italy. My phone has been ringing off the hook from beekeepers with deadouts,high infestations of varroa and very small clusters of bees. As the old saying goes the truth hurts! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:54:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Apiary Lease Agreement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I have my Tennessee Registration number burned into the > equipment. This > helped when they called the cops. And they relented. But if > they had not > the police could have done nothing. Whereas a signed > agreement would at > least be proof if you had to go to court. > Having all of your equipment marked is the first thing you should do. This may even include the frames. I was told of a case here in Florida where a number of hives were stolen and thanks to the branding the boxes were found. The person who had the boxes then claimed that he "found" them and that the frames (and bees) were his. The boxes were recovered but the frames were lost. Placing signs on the yard with your contact information is another good idea. While a case of honey has always been the traditional method of payment, a canceled check provides better documentation. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:13:12 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "M.E.A. McNeil" Subject: Re: Conditions In-Reply-To: <200103121413.JAA21815@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > The dead one looks like a starveout We also have a starve out. There is white mycelium (spelling? anyway, mold) on quite a few but not all of the pollen cells. Can I use these frames again? M. McNeil MEA McNeil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After being gone for a week, I found this message, and am frankly astonished that it generated no responses. If true, this is probably the single most important message I have ever seen posted on this newsgroup. - John Edwards Robert Roach wrote: > Merced County California has detected Small Hive Beetle or SHB (Aethina > tumida Murray) > during a routine apiary strength inspection of 198 colonies on 2-28-01. > CDFA Meadowview lab confirmed the sample on 3-2-01. The bees were > originally purchased from an out-of-business Florida based > operation. The colonies traveled from Florida to Maine to > North Dakota and then to California in October of 2000. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:33:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Are Feral Honeybees Recovering? Call for observation. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Edwards wrote: > > I'm going to Yuma next week (and hopefully a few more trips there), and may > find if the isolated feral populations have bounced back - everything is blooming > now, but the last two years were dry. Update: Rained out in Yuma last week - I'll try again in a week or two. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:51:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Is This What Was Done With The "Tucson Bee-Lab" Money? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > If anyone has been wondering what the government is doing > with all the money they are saving by closing the Tucson, AZ > Bee Lab, I guess I'd better try to clear a little of this up, so, at some personal risk, here goes (as I understand it). Of course, all closure plans are on hold at the present time. We await further orders. The Tucson Bee Lab funds are not to be "saved", but transferred to the SW Watershed Research Center in Tucson, which will also expand with the added $1.1 million into the Bee Research Center building. So no savings to the taxpayer. The Weslaco Bee Lab will also receive the same amount in added funds (from somewhere). Does this sound like savings? (opinions are my own, and info is the best I have) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:02:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: ...The "Tucson Bee-Lab" Money?(ADDENDUM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > If anyone has been wondering what the government is doing > with all the money they are saving by closing the Tucson, AZ > Bee Lab, I guess I'd better try to clear a little of this up, so, at some personal risk, here goes (as I understand it). Of course, all closure plans are on hold at the present time. We await further orders. The Tucson Bee Lab funds are not to be "saved", but transferred to the SW Watershed Research Center in Tucson, which will also expand with the added $1.1 million into the Bee Research Center building. So no savings to the taxpayer. The Weslaco Bee Lab will also receive the same amount in added funds (from somewhere). Does this sound like savings? (opinions are my own, and info is the best I have) ADDENDUM: I guess I should add that the main effect to bee research will be the loss of all Tucson Bee Lab federal employees, temporaries, and students, possible loss of about $350-400,000. in grants from private and association sources, and the loss of the only federal honey bee lab in the western US. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:27:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, John wrote: If true, this is probably the single most important message I have ever seen posted on this newsgroup. * Merced County California has detected Small Hive Beetle or SHB (Aethina tumida Murray) during a routine apiary strength inspection of 198 colonies on 2-28-01. > CDFA Meadowview lab confirmed the sample on 3-2-01. The bees were > originally purchased from an out-of-business Florida based operation. The colonies traveled from Florida to Maine to North Dakota and then to California in October of 2000.* Why would you be so surprised John? Did the USDA think they could prevent the SHB from entering California through migratory beekeeping? Hell you can't even find the SHB in a package of bees. They can hide in a 1/8 inch crack. I can't (can) believe they couldn't find the SHB when the hives were checked in Maine & North Dakota. I said on Bee-L a long time ago we had better learn to live with SHB. Maybe our congressmen can legislate the SHb away. What are they going to do to the beekeeper trying to survive in a tough commercial beekeeping environment? Burn his hives? That's what the USDA did with the first finds of tracheal and varroa mites. Did it work? Only put the beekeeper out of business. I wasn't surprised in the least only surprised the find didn't happen last year or the year before that. Pollination is the most important aspect of the beekeeping industry. California is always one of the first to get new beekeeping plagues. Almond growers are begging beekeepers all over the U.S. for hives for pollination because the California beekeepers simply can't cover the demand. Therein lies the problem. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:53:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Edwards wrote: > After being gone for a week, BTW, contrary to some theories, I was NOT in California with a bucket of beetles. The decrease in state bee inspectors nationwide has not been helpful to stopping movements like this. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:11:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael Bassett Subject: Re: Conditions in CT USA bob wrote Fall treatment was those leaky plastic formic gel packets. I would be checking before long for varroa. All beekeepers in our area which used those packets are reporting high infestations of varroa comming out of winter. Do you know if they did two packets one after another or only one packet? thanks mike bassett massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 06:23:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, John Edwards wrote: BTW, contrary to some theories, I was NOT in California with a bucket of beetles. The decrease in state bee inspectors nationwide has not been helpful to stopping movements like this. John you asked for discussion so trying to help out. State inspectors might help with finding the problem but they are not going to stop the beetle. Having been to Florida and saw the situation first hand I feel qualified to speak. Finding a couple of beetles on a semi load of hives is worse than finding a needle in a hay stack because the needle stays in the same place. I predict areas in which pollination is taking place using hives from areas of infestation have already got the beetle but beekeepers have not lost hives yet so show little concern. By the time they notice the problem will be serious. Having looked at the problem from the start I see no permanent solution for the SHB. I see several IPM measures. The honey house trap I am working on might solve the* honey house * problems. Maybe not but a important area (in my opinion) to look at. The SHB beetle has leveled out in the south and beekeepers are learning to live with the Small Hive Beetle. Commercial beekeeping is becoming harder and harder due to the various plagues of the last two decades. Mainly because of the amount of time required to test, treat and check hives. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 06:43:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Conditions in CT USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, Mike wrote: Do you know if they did two packets one after another or only one packet? All the beekeepers I have talked to only used one packet and all but one used the repackaged packets. I have pointed out on Bee-L and at meetings that Bob Stevens of BetterBee listed two treatments for better varroa control in his catalog. All beekeepers reported excellent Tracheal mite control with the *Apicure*. I believe the *Apicure * might have worked better if two treatments had been used but in my opinion the infestations levels of varroa were to high from fluvalinate resistant mites for ANY treatment to work. None of the beekeepers I talked to did any testing before, during or after treatments. Several used BOTH Apistan and Apicure. Two tried Coumaphos after they saw their treatments were not working but most the hives died any way. Using Apistan this year might work in your area but if you use apistan you need to test with rolls or sticky boards (like you would with IPM controls) to make sure your controls are working. I personally disagree with much of the published data on the amount of infestation before treatment should be done and still save the hive. The best research I have found is still some of the oldest information. The research done by Dr. Marion Ellis of Nebraska has proven the best information on testing I have come across. Hope I have helped. My back hurts like Ulee Jackson in * Ulees Gold*. Only up on the net for short periods now when I come in taking a break. Good luck with the bees in the coming season! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:11:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiarist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees seen on Larkspur leaves MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One hypothesis for this behavior is that the bees that are sitting on the Larkspur are initially attracted by fragrance from the leaves. Larkspur has a pleasant, attractive aroma to it's leaves. The floweres that come out later have a slightly different fragrance. As the leaf parts and seeds of the Larkspur are considered to be "poisonous", it has been suggested that the bees become "doped" temporarily when they land on the leaves and absorb a small amount through their "feet". They remain on the leaf for the time that it takes the initial effects of the toxin to wear off, then fly away. Some seem to sit longer than others. If they don't move around much on the leaf, they would not rupture or disturb the leaf tissue to get any more of the poison, and can fly off when they recover. Other bees that see them sitting there and come to investigate, suffer the same "doping". Hence, the little crowd on the leaf. An interesting explanation, but we shall probably never truly know. Emily Johnson, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:24:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Yard Agreements MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I use a yard agreement and a longer letter of information in getting permission for yard placement. I have quickly put them on my web page so the format isn't the nicest but it will give an idea of the process. I felt that they were too long to embed in the email. I hope you all have easy web access as well as email. I look for sites that have the right foraging but also only approach land owners who appear to put some care into their place. I then spend a lot of time in education as you can see in the letter. The agreement itself is simple but has a statement of who owns the bees and equipment and also that the land owner does not have the right to allow others to disturb the hives. Feel free to copy the letter and agreement and modify for your own use. Visit the web page and let me know what you think. http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary email home: lackeyray@tianca.com email office: raymond.lackey@baesystems.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 06:21:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Yard Agreements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Raymond & All, I have read your yard agreement & believe the agreement covers the important areas. Simple and to the point. I do not believe most sideline and commercial beekeepers use a agreement of any kind and only brand registered numbers or letters into their equipment. Are there other beekeepers on Bee-L using yard agreements? Agreement or handshake? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:19:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Yard Agreements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/14/01 8:58:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << Are there other beekeepers on Bee-L using yard agreements? Agreement or handshake? >> I send around a letter at holiday time with a big thanks. I don't know if the letter would carry any legal weight, but it refers to the informal lease agreement we have, and reminds them that they are wonderful people for providing places for these pollinators of our food crops, as well as food for wildlife. Commercial beekeeping would not be possible today, if it were not for these kind landowners. A friend of mine had a bee yard on a farm that was leased from an absentee landowner. The farmer represented that he had control of the land, and that he had cleared the bee yard with the actual owner. Actually he had not. The landowner was visiting one time, and spotted the bees. After questioning and finding out the situation, she immediately demanded $2000 per year in rent from the beekeeper. A lot of people have little idea of the work beekeepers do, for not very large returns, and it never hurts to find gentle ways to get the truth to them. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com (Check out another wonderful, if much maligned pollinator at: http://pollinator.com/gallery/xylocopa_virginica.htm) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:51:28 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Yard Agreements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I maintain 30 to 35 locations. I have never had a written yard agreement. Our agreement has been by handshake - I give them a case of honey in most cases (one dairy farmer and his brother want two 30-packs of Genesee Beer in bottles, and two quarts of honey). I also agree to move the bees immediately if they become a problem. This plan has worked well for me for almost 30 years. In fact, I would feel I was being rude if I asked for some kind of legally binding contract. This is Vermont, an agricultural area, where one's word is his/her bond. I also believe it hard enough to find good bee locations, and think such a contract would further limit such locations. Mike Bob & Liz wrote: Are there other beekeepers on Bee-L using yard agreements? Agreement or handshake? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:23:48 -0600 Reply-To: cspacek@ev1.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: curtis spacek Subject: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just to update the current status of selective breeding for mite resistance in my 2 yards.losses in yard #1 ,5 out of 20 ,2 crashed as the result of casting large ,late swarms.Yard #2 losses were zero of 37 hives.method of selection=highest production,survival through winter w/o treatment,clean bottom boards.temperament was not considered ,only production and survival.stocks used were hives removed from walls,swarms collected,and existing stocks.winter losses showing decrease yearly from 25% four years ago to less than 10%this year.cause of this years losses of 5 hives not verified as mites.no treatment of any type used last year. C. Spacek Pasadena,Texas