From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:46 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDjs18790 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:45 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDgJ12721 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDgJ12721@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0103C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 146256 Lines: 3185 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:12:09 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gordon Subject: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEE-L Digest - 26 Feb 2001 to 27 Feb 2001 (#2001-58)I recently checked = our bee hives at my place of employment. I am presently working on a 20 = acre Biodynamic farm in the SW tip of Indiana (Historic New Harmony to = be exact). Of the eight hives, only one survived the winter. We had one = period this winter when there were 20 consecutive days of subzero = weather and high wind-chill factors. The rest of the winter has been = seasonable for this area.=20 All hives were started with 3 lb swarms of Italian bees/queens from = Walter T. Kelley. Since we are a Biodynamic farm, we started all the = hives with foundation strips rather than full sheets of foundation. This = is per Demeter specifications. We also use no chemicals except oxalic = and/or formic acids to control Varroa and Tracheal mites. We are = discouraged from using wintergreen oils for tracheal mites. When I looked into the hives the other day I found that there was almost = no sign of brood in any of the dead hives. I did not even find remnants = of queen cells. There was plenty of honey stored for the size of the = hives going into winter (which I must say was weak because of the dry = summer and the smallness of the swarms hived). There were many dead bees = clustered near the honey stores in each hive. This leads me to believe = that the bees did not abscond due to mite infestation. I found no sign = of foul brood in any of the hives. I also did not find any sign of wax = moth. What I did find in most of the dead hives on at least two frames each = puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of what appeared = to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = scatted over the frames and in the cells. Have you ever had an = experience with this phenomenon? If so what is it's cause? Please = contact me on this as I have told my employer that I would find what I = could from an expert in apiculture. Gordon Hayes flashgh@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:34:58 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony Morgan Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8r=2DTr=F8ndelag?= University College Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gordon wrote: > What I did find in most of the dead hives on at least two frames each = > puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of what appeared = > to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = > scatted over the frames and in the cells. Have you ever had an = > experience with this phenomenon? If so what is it's cause? Please = > contact me on this as I have told my employer that I would find what I = > could from an expert in apiculture. Varroa excreta? See: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/detect/detect.html Has anybody seen these white deposits? Could they be mistaken for eggs? -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:39:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: varroa ressitant bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All C. Spacek of Pasadena,Texas posts encouraging data on varroa resistant bees. Can he say if Open Mesh Floors were used, and what are the views of the members on these devices? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:18:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees Comments: To: cspacek@ev1.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/14/01 10:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, cspacek@EV1.NET writes: << only production and survival.stocks used were hives removed from walls,swarms collected,and existing stocks.winter losses showing decrease yearly from 25% four years ago to less than 10%this year.cause of this years losses of 5 hives not verified as mites.no treatment of any type used last year. >> Several have responded to my recent posting on survival of feral honeybees. It appears that others in the southern US have also seen this happening. It is probably early to do much observation in the North, but I believe, at least in southern locations that there are increasing levels of bees that have survived the winter without any varroa treatment at all. Despite all the bloom we have here in early spring, there is still a nectar dearth. The normal date for bees to be self sustaining on incoming nectar averages about March 25, though I think it will be a bit early this year. One of the first serious nectar producers is wisteria, which has some spotty bloom right now. Bees jump right on this, as soon as it opens. Yesterday, I observed wisteria at a number of locations. Right next to bee yards, as expected, there was an extremely high level of foraging, with at least one honeybee per cluster of blossoms. But what amazed me is that one location which is at least five miles from any domestic hives, also had just as heavy a foraging pattern. Three years ago I was impressed to see ANY honeybees in areas where there were no domestic hives. Now I am being impressed by seeing high populations in some of these areas. I want to thank all who responded to my previous post about feral hives. One mention was made that loggers are also observing an increasing number of bee trees, so here is another resource that could be followed to check feral populations. Thank you also Curtis, for posting about your experience with non-treatment. Someone in the research community needs to be checking these "survivors" to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of resistance to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon? Dave Green (Thinking I'm high on bee venom, and can't sleep) The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:31:25 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Someone in the research community needs to be checking these "survivors" to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of resistance to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon? reply: No David. I have seen caucasian type feral bees in upstate NY. As far as I'm aware of no one keeps this type of bee in my area and they seem to be making a comeback. I'm wondering "WHY" this caucasian type of bee and not others? Clay ----- Original Message ----- From: David L. Green To: Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 2:18 AM Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dave Green wrote, "Someone in the research community needs to be checking these 'survivors' to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of resistance to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon?" John Harbo's research suggests there is an inheritable trait in all lines of bees for suppressing mite reproduction. Inheritable trait meaning the trait can be carried across generations (hence a genetic propensity) and he has observed this across strains of bees. John speculates that the propensity to suppress mite reproduction (SMR) is out there in the wild and breeders can (some do) select for it. The bad news is he doesn't know what it is about these SMR bees that suppress the mite's reproduction, he just knows (by empirical data) that if the bees possess this trait, varroa mites simply do not reproduce successfully in that population of bees. Investigation is being directed at keremones to see if there's something about the "smell" of these bees that trigger a faulty reproductive response in varroa mites (ED?). I believe John's research is pending publication in one of the journals (ABJ or BC) soon (perhaps this or next month). It is logical that if this SMR characteristic exists as John's research suggests, it would become a predominant trait as those populations lacking this trait succumb to the ravages of varroa. An interesting question is, how will the dynamics of adaptation play out in this situation. Will varroa also evolve to adjust to the SMR characteristic, or will the predator and host achieve a happy medium? Survival of both species suggests the latter. Aaron Morris - thinking dynamics! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:00:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Someone in the research community needs to be checking these "survivors" > to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of > resistance > to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon? The larger question is - has the same tolerance appeared in Europe which has had the mite for much longer than the US? If not, then we are either talking about different Varroa or are seeing a normal cycle for the mite and bee. If Varroa kills off all the feral bees and all the bees kept by beekeepers who are lax in mite treatment, you remove the mite source and will go through a mite free period until feral colonies reestablish the cycle. Then there is a surge of feral bees- from beekeepers swarms- and all looks well until the Varroa peak and you are back to ground zero. That has happened here in Maine. Led to some complacent beekeepers. And we know there are different Varroa, and different results from each, including the low losses reported in the presence of the mite. Only reason I ask is I have not seen anything similar with the European community. Does not mean it has not happened, but it certainly seems a well kept secret if it has. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 06:40:24 -0700 Reply-To: Allen Dick Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: Quality of Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Allen Dick" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 1:49 AM Subject: Re: Quality of Honey "James Fischer" wrote in message news:98n0l3011co@drn.newsguy.com... > Allen Dick said: > >Unfortunately, because most of the honey offered to the public > >is either mass processed or from small operators who very often > >misunderstand and mishandle honey, > > You clearly explained how large operators mangle honey, but > how exactly do small operators mishandle honey? What are the > most common errors in your view? I'd love to start making a > list of the worst errors and the solutions Well, I doubt that I can do the matter justice because there are so many pitfalls, and some are subtle, but it starts right at the hive. I can see you want to make me work... How is the hive built, and what glues, paints, preservatives, etc. are used? Where is the hive located? Is the area subject to serious pollution or vandalism? Do neighbours vandalise or spray the hive with insecticide? What then? What chemicals are used on the hive and when? 'Natural' substances are chemicals. Where are the hive parts stored when not in use? What fumes or liquids may contact the parts? What animals and insects might be in contact with the hive? What is fed to the hive? When? Can it get into the honey? If so, is it approved? Is it dangerous or...? How are diseases and pests controlled? Chemicals, radiation, fumigation? How is the honey removed and how is it handled and transported? Fumes? Dust? Dirt? Chemicals? How is it stored until extraction? What kind of extraction and uncapping devices are used? Materials? Cleanliness? What kind of room is being used for the job? Outdoors? How is the equipment and environment cleaned? Chemicals? Are the people healthy, clean and properly dressed? Hair nets or hats? Are they trained and "food conscious'? Is all honey from a known source or bought from another beekeeper? Are premises inspected? Questions answered? Can anything fall into a super or tank? Are things stored or placed above the honey at any point? Breast pockets? Are there flies or bees, vermin, dust, fumes, etc. in the packing room? Are lights protected against breakage? Ceiling beams -- if any -- clean? Are cleaning materials or pesticides etc. in the honey room? Is the water used in the honey handling area certified potable for public purposes? Is the honey dry enough to not ferment? Spills: What happened? What happens to the spilled honey? Bottling and storage tanks: Materials? History? Cleaning materials? Heating/warming method? What is it strained through and how fine? Material? Heat? What containers are used? New? Used? Washed? With what? When? Container materials? Previous contents? Labelling? Truthful? Lawful? Durable? Washable? Attractive? Labelling inks? Smelly? Lids stamped, then stacked? Transfer of smell? Filled containers stored where? Chemicals? Smells? Exterior contamination of jars, pails, etc. Store shelf: In sunlight? Containers sticky due to leaks? Old stock with unsightly partial granulation? Tamper-proof seal? Supervision of unsold product? Stale product: Melted? How? How often? Broken and damaged product: salvaged? How? These are just a few of the obvious points and I trust Murray or someone else will add some more. As you can see, there are zillion ways the uninitiated and untrained can go astray. > >the public has turned slowly away from our product and we > >are losing ground in the marketplace. > > Turned away? What with Honey cough-drops, Honey-Nut Breakfast > Cereals, Honey-Flu medicines, and so on, it appears that > "Honey" has a great reputation as a high-end sweetener. Our _word_ sweetens the bottom line of many companies, but our _product_ is not the primary sweetener in most of the products carrying the word "honey". People love our word and call their spouses, children and other loved ones 'honey', bit they do not buy our product in any significant quantity, especially compared to all other sweeteners. > It appears that the robber-baron multinationals have done > enough focus-group studies to conclude that one can sell > more of ANYTHING if one simply puts the word "Honey" in > front of it. This proves that honey is clearly a > "value-added feature" to them. If only they would show as much enthusiasm and commitment to putting significant amounts of real honey into the product. > The trick now seems to be to start marketing honey from > specific floral sources and/or areas, and take a page from > the wine industry's play-book. Sadly, this forces the big > operators who blend honey, micro-filter, and pasteurize into > the position of selling "cheap beer" as compared to the smaller > producers' "vintage wines", but there would be nothing stopping > a large producer from marketing non-blended, not-so-filtered, > unpasteurized honey. All the advertising in the world can only get the buyer to try a product once. When they give you that one try, it's Showtime -- make it or break it. One bad -- or even poor -- experience can turn people away for a lifetime and also even affect their friends and children's habits. Sadly, much of the honey sold does not convince the buyer that this is something to buy again, particularly in preference to cheaper standardised and predictable substitute items. > I think that all must admit that many people prefer > extracted honey to in-the-comb honey, as there are a > growing number who like "creamed" honey. While a true > connoisseur like yourself may consider them "inferior", it > might be more accurate to call them "different products". I doubt that I am a true connoisseur, but one of the things that has put people off comb honey is its perishable nature. Most people do not like hard granulated or coarse granulated honey and often comb becomes unattractive to eat long before it becomes unattractive to the eye. Consequently hard comb honey is sold once and the customer forever after avoids it. Comb really should be a freezer item. As for creamed honey, it is okay. Most of the honey turned out by the packing plants is okay. I eat it. I am talking about getting past "okay" to "great". > I may be wrong, but > my impression has been that only real honey will > crystallize. This might be an elegant way to avoid lots > of expensive tests and complicated finger-pointing. HFCS granulates nicer than any honey and quickly too. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 06:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees In-Reply-To: <200103151153.GAA10869@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Someone in the research community needs to be checking these "survivors" > to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of resistance > to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon? I wonder what ever happened to the HIP project. It worked along the line of selecting hives that did not need any assistance and should have paid off by now. Haven't heard from Jack Griffes for a year now. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:28:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > All hives were started with 3 lb swarms of Italian bees/queens from = > Walter T. Kelley. Since we are a Biodynamic farm, we started all the = > hives with foundation strips rather than full sheets of > foundation. This = > is per Demeter specifications. We also use no chemicals > except oxalic = > and/or formic acids to control Varroa and Tracheal mites. We are = > discouraged from using wintergreen oils for tracheal mites. > That is strange as I would think that the nice natural and mild wintergreen (menthol) would be preferred over the caustic acids. [cut] > > What I did find in most of the dead hives on at least two > frames each = > puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of > what appeared = > to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = > scatted over the frames and in the cells. Have you ever had an = > experience with this phenomenon? If so what is it's cause? Please = > contact me on this as I have told my employer that I would > find what I = > could from an expert in apiculture. I am a bit far south so this is based on information that I have seen on this list. You may be able to get more information from the list archives. You may have lost the queens in the hives (due in part to use of the acids) and near the end a laying workers developed. Can you tell us how the size of these eggs compared to normal bee eggs? My guess is the hive then died due to Tracheal mites. You can check the archives for information on how to test for these mites. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:50:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Decay Time of imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: I would be really interested in getting various published decay time (or DT=50, or half life; I believe all are the same measure) for imidacloprid. >From the links on Allens pages: the figure from the NPTN (National Pesticide Telecommunications Network) is "Soil: In laboratory studies imidacloprid has a half-life of greater than one year in oxygenated sandy loam soil (6)." (6) is US Environmental Protection Agency (1994) Imidacloprid pesticide factsheet In the link from the paper from Environment Canada "Field and Test Plot Studies of Disperal of Imidacloprid in NB and PEI" if you download the full text you will read on page 7: "Imidacloprid is persistent in soil with a consequent high potential for carryover and build up of chemical residues (Mulye 1996a, Mulye 1996b). I am trying to get that reference, but apparently when Hermendra Mulye went to work for our Pesticide Regulatory Agency PMRA the paper became classified. I would like to know what other regulatory or environmental agencies around the world consider to be the half life. It seems like that would be a critical number. regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 12:49:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Imidacloprid in France and Holland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen's web pages have on imidacloprid have not been updated for awhile. Don't get me wrong Allen, I am not complaining. I can imagine how much work it was, and I have noted where you said "your enthusiam for the project was limited". In fact I don't know where you get the time to do all the things you do, and I am quite convinced that you are actually three different people all using the persona of Allen Dick in cyberspace. I would like to know what has been the result of the battles in France and what happened in Holland. >From a bee-l post: >On the 13th of August 1999, the Dutch Government decided to withdraw all >authorizations for the use of Imidacloprid in open-air conditions from 1st >Jan. 2000. The reasons invoked were: the too long persistence in soils of >the molecule with regard to European Standards, a intolerable toxicity vis a >vis birds (A beet treated seed ingested by a bird the size of a sparrow was >lethal), toxicity vis a vis bees did not conform to Uniform Principles. >BAYER blocked the process notably by submerging the Dutch administration >with "new scientific data". A decision is to be taken 1st Nov. 2000. The Bayer web page seems indicate that it was reregistered. Is that correct? I know that I should be able to access recent French developments from Apiservices webpages, but I have been having a slow go with the translator programs. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:12:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid in France and Holland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >From a soon to be published artice in the Maine State Beekeepers newsletter: Imidacloprid, the ingredient in Gaucho, is also in a variety of other insecticides, including Admire, Cinfidor, and Impower. In the August 2000 issue of HiveLights, an article by Medhat Nasr (who will speak to the MSBA at the March Annual Meeting) detailed results of tests on Imidacloprid. Impower was used as a seedling drench on tomato plants after they grew their first true leafs. The seedlings were in a greenhouse. Bumblebees were used in pollination and were introduced less than thirty days after the introduction of Impower. In two trials, all the greenhouse bumblebees died. Many were found on the floor, “spinning in circles and showing tremors”. This resulted in a company that produces bumblebees for greenhouse pollination to recommend that the bees not be introduced to the greenhouse within 30 to 45 days after using Imidacloprid. Nasr also indicated that even though Imidacloprid may not be in high enough concentrations in plant nectar to cause bee damage, the normal process of converting nectar to honey will increase the concentration of Imidacloprid by 2 to 3 times and could lead to the problems found in French bees. His final comments in the article are worth repeating verbatim. “The reports of French Beekeepers and the greenhouse study on bumble bees need to be taken serious. What Bayer has offered does not help to understand the dilemma of the French bees or the results of the greenhouse study on tomatoes and bumble bees. A study for sub-lethal effects for a longer period of time is needed to explain the negative impacts of Imidacloprid on bees. If Imidacloprid is not the culprit a look at bee health in the affected region in France should be warranted.” end of article. Scary stuff. And it is used on many different plants, not just sunflowers. We are watching the potato fields in Maine, where it is used. And the problem is, if any Varroa are present, colony deaths may be masked and not determined to be pesticide kills. Which is the purpose of the article, to alert beekeepers to Gaucho. This was only one part of a much longer article which also covered the French situation. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:27:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. Can someone confirm the date when varroa was first found in the US? It was first discovered here in the UK in 1992, I believe a few years after you, so that might give some indication of how long it's likely to be before resistant feral bees start appearing here. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 15:40:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Imidacloprid and Cynthia Scott-Dupree Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill wrote: >In the August >2000 issue of HiveLights, an article by Medhat Nasr (who will speak to >the MSBA at the March Annual Meeting) detailed results of tests on >Imidacloprid. and from an old post of Allen's: >I guess what really frightens me is that Cynthia Scott-Dupree, who is the head of The Canadian Association of Apiculturalists (CAPA) has been working closely with BAYER and just okayed the product -- according to the news article below. I would have expected her to be our *defender* if there is any doubt or risk and to wait for Canadian trials in Canadian conditions. > >"...But Scott-Dupree said research showed negligible levels of residue in >France. She is waiting for results of tests done in Canada". I was not at the Canadian Honey Council meeting in Moncton a few weeks ago, but I understand from that Ms. Scott-Dupree presented there, and I also understand that Bayer is beginning to hold her study up as a defense. But, I am also told that she received $110,000 to do the study from Bayer and the Canola growers. Apparently the study involved counting dead bees on sheets laid out in front of apiary in a treated canola field and apiary in a control canola field. Now my understanding is that imidacloprid at its lower levels causes bee death or behavioural effects away from the hive so this is not a good test method to my mind. When questioned about other tests, hive weight, hive population...(the Bayer web site says a variety of tests were done), I am told that she said she was not at liberty to release the results. Now the above paragraph is complete hearsay. I was not there. But Medhat Nasr was, and perhaps other members of this list were there. I would appreciate some list discussion of this important research! Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:16:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert & All, Robert wrote: Can someone confirm the date when varroa was first found in the US? Varroa was first discovered Sept. 25 ,1987 in Saukville, Wisconsin. The hives were depopulated by the USDA to prevent the spread of Varroa. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:00:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Thai Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All, My wife was watching the Discovery Channel on Thursday night. The show "Wild Discovery" had a segment on varroa infestation on European honeybees. They showed how the bees in Thailand have adapted to the varroa when an individual bee signals she is under attack by dancing. The other bees wait for an opportunity to pluck the mites from the affected bee, and kill it with their mandibles. Is there something in the temperament or the makeup of Thai bees that they cannot be used in place of other bees? If a beekeeper in the United States were to want to raise Asian bees, would it be permissible? Thanks, Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:28:03 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1987 George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:46:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Imidacloprid in France and Holland In-Reply-To: <200103152015.PAA25638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen's web pages have on imidacloprid have not been updated for awhile. I am looking for URLs to add or text to cut-and-paste. The actual updating is not difficult for me, but the research and organisation takes time and commitment. I am always glad to get something I can just drop into a page or link. I think the topic is important. If you see something email it to me. Please spoon feed me, folks. > In fact I don't know where you get the time to do all the things > you do, and I am quite convinced that you are actually three different > people all using the persona of Allen Dick in cyberspace. Actually I'm a bot. I have recently received copies of Peter Dillon's presentation at Moncton and shall ask for his permission to post it or excerpts on the site. http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- For three days after death, hair and fingernails continue to grow but phone calls taper off. -- Johnny Carson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:30:51 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Thai Bees Comments: cc: jaclark@NORFOLK.INFI.NET In-Reply-To: <200103160335.WAA07939@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I believe inporting any bees into the united states is forbidden. I have also heard that the Asian hive bees are not suited to our type of apiculture- they are smaller, require a smaller cell size, a smaller hive, and smaller beespace. Old reports of attempts to keep them in areas outside their natural range reported to be temperamental, and tend to either swarm or dwindle, and either way, they dont produce much excess honey for their keeper. (Not compared to our european bees, anyway.) This is what I recall from some stuff I read a year or two ago in old issues of the beekeeping journals- my recollection may be faulty, so if anyone has more solid information, please correct me! We probably got varroa in the US because somebody knew better than US customs, and snuck bees (Probably queens) into the United States illegally. We got Africanized bees because someone thought they would be better than what we had. Before anyone thinks about bringing in new species or types of bees, they should carefully review the poor track record we already have, and then think again. We don't need any more new pests and diseases. We are getting some new strains of bees brought in from Russia, legally, and some US breeders are having luck in selecting for resistance. Patience and persistance seem to be our best bets. Ellen Anglin "Joseph A. Clark" wrote: Hello All, My wife was watching the Discovery Channel on Thursday night. The show "Wild Discovery" had a segment on varroa infestation on European honeybees. They showed how the bees in Thailand have adapted to the varroa when an individual bee signals she is under attack by dancing. The other bees wait for an opportunity to pluck the mites from the affected bee, and kill it with their mandibles. Is there something in the temperament or the makeup of Thai bees that they cannot be used in place of other bees? If a beekeeper in the United States were to want to raise Asian bees, would it be permissible? Thanks, Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 04:45:41 -0500 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill farm Subject: Question on royal jelly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone on the list harvest royal jelly? Someone recently asked how this substance is obtained and where it is sold. I promised that I would try to get information. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 06:21:09 +0800 Reply-To: ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees In-Reply-To: <200103151246.HAA11571@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee L listers, I was very fortunate to be visited recently by Dr. Dennis Anderson, who has studied varroa worldwide. He has got some very good answers to many questions about varroa. It appears that varroa is a species complex, with many variations, some here in Luzon in the Philippines, hitherto unnamed. He confirmed many beekeepers' suspicions that some strains of A. mel exhibit a mechanism which confuses their reproductive behavior. This seems to support the present thread we are on. I wonder if Dr. Anderson's recent papers on this have been posted somewhere in the net. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite, Highlands Philippines joel@ilogmaria.com 063 - 46 - 865 - 0018 (home phone) 063 - 917 - 502 - 7538 (Joel's cell phone) 063 - 917 - 477 - 2194 (Violaine's cell phone) 063 - 912 - 318 - 7517 (Home cell phone) Hi, Someone in the research community needs to be checking these "survivors" to find out why they are surviving, i.e., what is the mechanism of resistance to varroa? And is this only a mild-climate phenomenon? reply: No David. I have seen caucasian type feral bees in upstate NY. As far as I'm aware of no one keeps this type of bee in my area and they seem to be making a comeback. I'm wondering "WHY" this caucasian type of bee and not others? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:31:01 +0800 Reply-To: ilogmria@cav.pworld.net.ph Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: Thai Bees In-Reply-To: <200103160335.WAA07918@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joseph, You may be talking about Apis cerana indica, which is endemic to Asia. There have been many acounts of commercial beekeeping with this species in India, China and SouthEast Asia. But, I doubt if they will survive winter or even spring and autumn temperatures. This is notwithstanding the concerns of your local quarantine, environment and agriculture authorities. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite, Highlands Philippines joel@ilogmaria.com 063 - 46 - 865 - 0018 (home phone) 063 - 917 - 502 - 7538 (Joel's cell phone) 063 - 917 - 477 - 2194 (Violaine's cell phone) 063 - 912 - 318 - 7517 (Home cell phone) Hello All, My wife was watching the Discovery Channel on Thursday night. The show "Wild Discovery" had a segment on varroa infestation on European honeybees. They showed how the bees in Thailand have adapted to the varroa when an individual bee signals she is under attack by dancing. The other bees wait for an opportunity to pluck the mites from the affected bee, and kill it with their mandibles. Is there something in the temperament or the makeup of Thai bees that they cannot be used in place of other bees? If a beekeeper in the United States were to want to raise Asian bees, would it be permissible? Thanks, Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 12:50:12 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gordon Hayes wrote: >What I did find in most of the dead hives on at least two frames each >puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of what appeared = >to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = >scatted over the frames and in the cells. Have you ever had an = >experience with this phenomenon? If so what is it's cause? Could the 'eggs' be the pupal cases of the tiny flies that sometimes live on the dead remains of bees in colonies that have died-out? These are very common here in the UK. Where the dead bees in the cluster have not yet dried out, the fly larvae -looking like tiny maggots- may also be present. The adult flies don't seem to remain in the hive. James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector Central Science Laboratory National Bee Unit Tel/fax: +44(0)20 8571 6450 Mobile: 07719 924 418 E-mail: j.morton@csl.gov.uk Web: http://www.csl.gov.uk Address: 'Geertje', Canal Lock 92, Windmill Lane, Southall, Middx, UB2 4NH ___________________________________________________________________________ Disclaimer The information contained in this message may include privileged, proprietary or confidential information. Please treat it with the same respect that you would expect for your own information. If you have received it in error, we apologise, and ask that you contact the CSL sender immediately and erase it from your computer. Thank you for your co-operation. Further information on confidentiality of our communications, can be found at http://www.csl.gov.uk/email.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 07:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > bees in Thailand ... pluck the mites from the affected bee, and kill it with > their mandibles. This grooming behavior is not unique to Thai bees. It is another characteristic present in all populations of bees, more dominant in some populations, less in others. I heard Steve Taber in 1997 talk about a breeder in Germany who noticed this tendency in some of his bees by observing dead mites with a jewelers glass. Some of the mites were dented or dismembered. The breeder was attempting to strengthen this attribute through selective breeding. I don't know the breeder, nor have I heard updates on his project. But the propensity for survival IS evident in SOME bees. Selective breeding CAN bring such characteristics to the forefront, and we are currently guessing (probably correctly) that natural populations are also exhibiting characteristics that allow the to better coexist with varroa. It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of breeding varroa tolerant bees. Aaron Morris - thinking dynamically! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Thai Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All, I've received a couple of replies to my posting that have made it clear why we're not using Thai bees. Aside from the legal issues, (and I wasn't implying that we should ever try to sneak a perceived better bee past customs or the USDA), the fact that they are either not well suited to the U.S. winters, and that they do not have the standard cell size of Apis meliflora, probably makes it infeasible to use them. It's a shame, since they have a wonderful defense against varroa. It may take a long time before European bees learn how to defend themselves against mite infestations. Still hoping for a natural cure to ensure honey remains pure. Thank you once again to all of you. Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:55:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Question on royal jelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although I don't, at the University of Nebraska Bee lab is a visiting scholar from Egypt is studing ways to increase royal jelly production. I have watched his presentations several times and adapted them to raising my queens. He forces all the bees from a hive into just the lower box (see weekend queen rearing at my site www.libertybee.com). He grafts and raises queen cells the same way. The only difference is that immediately after they are capped he pulls the two queen cells frames and harvests the royal jelly. He reuses the hive a second time, then rebuilds. To harvest the honey, he cuts the end off the queen cell then uses a need to remove the larvae and a specialsmall spoon to scoup out the royal jelly and immmediately puts the royal jelly into a dark (light proof) plastic cup. This process is manual and time consuming, thus the high prices you see at health food stores. The entire frame of queen cells yields no more than a couple ounces of royal jelly. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:31:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Honey flavors etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a book that was given to me that has a large selection of flowering plants listed in it that bees seem to like. Privet seems to be a big one--any one have any experience with this. Next question- Assuming you had limited space-say less than 1/2 acre, and knowing your bees had access to Tulip Poplars, various berries, and golden rod-what other plants would you suggest to plant for the bees. This is the South were it gets HOT and the past few years very dry. Thanks TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:06:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees In-Reply-To: <200103151428.JAA13699@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > I wonder what ever happened to the HIP project. It worked along the line of > selecting hives that did not need any assistance and should have paid off by > now. Haven't heard from Jack Griffes for a year now. Jack wrote me today and said I could relay this to BEE-L: ============= Howdy Allen, HIP continues. But the genetic puzzle to achieve Varroa resistance/tolerance/untreated thriving survivability is complex and we have but very very few among the MANY beekeepers that will actually "Cooperate" so we can unitedly work the puzzle out. Lots of interested specatators and few who will actually help do the needful work. Just remember when you read reports from "researchers" that we have yet to have even one of them allow HIP to test their "resistant" stock side by side with HIP stock in one of our HIP test yards for the 2 years untreated thriving survivor test we require. READ CAREFULLY and you will discover that in every instance that I have seen that "researchers" start with some unproven hypothesis and never do attempt to correlate it to reality - untreated reality. An example - BIG ASSUMPTION - reducing mite population increase = varroa resistance - then a program designed to breed bees that can under ideal conditions actually have a negative v-mite population growth - a dandy thing but then it begs the question --- WILL THEY SURVIVE with their "reduced mite load" and thrive next year as well WITH NO MITE TREATMENT of any kind (chemical, biological, grease patty, TM extender patty, etc.)???? And if they do can they pass it on consistently to their offspring??? In my own Untreated Test Yard some years back I witnessed the very best at holding mite load down CRASH when some of those not even close to as good (at that trait) kept right on chugging along, made honey, etc.. In my opinion disease resistance MAY make more actual difference in survivability than does mere "low mite load" maintenance. HIP does not claim we have the puzzle figured out yet - but we keep right on plugging away at it. Sure wish we had more good beekeepers that cared enough to pitch in and cooperate so we could unitedly work out the puzzle. Yes if you are a USA based beekeeper you might actually be able to join HIP. Here is what we require. If you are up to the challenge of actually helping work out the puzzle get with me via email jsgriffes@ldsworld.com Jack Griffes, founder of the Honeybee Improvement Program - we need to "talk." HIP requires a $200 annual membership fee. Currently $150 of that goes directly to pay for AI work and $50 is used for "promotion/education" advertising (meaning we have a miniscule advertising budget). HIP Cooperators must also maintain at their own cost at least one t-totally untreated for any kind of mites bee yard year round continuously. Careful selection each year of your best of the best stock for placement in your own HIP test yard - based upon the current voted upon selection criterion. Further observation and selection within your HIP test yard to pick out the best 2 year Untreated Thriving Survivors. Rearing of a minimum of 10 virgin queens from each tested breeder queen and sending them to HIP Cooperator, and Custom AI technician, Garrett Dodds, of Royal Gold Farms garrett@royalgoldfarms.com on the schedule set each year. Introduction and care for at least 10 HIP AI "potential breeder" queens each year - selecting breeders from them after time shows which are worthy. Obviously you gotta be able to rear queens and also obviously you gotta use a bunch of stock you rear yourself. May God bless you and yours as you strive to follow Him, Jack Griffes jsgriffes@ldsworld.com Country Jack's Honeybee Farm 10415 Teachout Road Onsted, MI 49265 USA "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." --Thomas Paine "Should I keep back my opinions through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason toward my country and an act of disloyalty toward the majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings." --Patrick Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 16:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Fairfax Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives Gordon wrote: >What I did find in most of the dead hives on at least two frames each = >puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of what appeared = >to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = >scatted over the frames and in the cells. I had a very similar experience. My 2 hives were started from 5 lb York Italian packages last spring. Hives were treated with Fumadil and formic acid, packaged in the original leaky packs, in October. There was a significant 24-hour varroa drop on the sticky boards the first week of treatment, virtually none after 3 weeks, when the spent packs were removed. Both entered the winter with ample (>80 lb) stores of honey, and bees were observed poking their heads out of the ventillation holes I drilled whenever the temperature got even close to 50 F. (It's been a tough winter in eastern Massachusetts, with no real flying days since before Thanksgiving.) Hive exteriors show bee feces, not surprising given the winter weather. I peeked in one hive on March 1 to find thousands of dead bees on the bottom board and 2 1/2 or 3 frames of honey in the upper hive body, but no live bees. No sign of brood of any kind. Most frames had dozens of dead bees fully inside the cells, head-first. Sometimes these bees were in tight groups, sometimes spread across the frame. The second hive had a cluster about the size of my clenched fist and more thousands of dead bees. No wax moth or other vermin damage was evident in either hive. The strange thing was the small white objects, about 1-2 mm diameter and 2-4 mm in length. I don't think they are bee eggs, in part because I see them all over the frames and the top bars, not in the cells. I don't have a positive ID on these objects, and would appreciate any help. They may or may not be related to the death of the hives. I plan to conduct a hive post-mortem, looking for varroa, tracheal mites, and Nosema spores, as well as some microscopic examination of these objects. I'll report any substantive findings to the list. In the meanwhile, any suggestions or educated guesses would be appreciated. I have ordered new packages (3 lb. Carniolans this time) but need to determine if the comb is safe for use. I plan to use acetic acid fumigation if I find evidence of Nosema, my current personal guess as to the cause of these dead-outs. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 06:01:27 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Thanks to Jack for setting the record straight. Varroa tolerant bees are in the future as our researchers all say. They just didn't say WHEN. One noted researcher predicted (his opinion) 25 years. As for my own yard of survivor hives. All were dead this spring. They had plenty of honey. None that they had made on their own but I provided. The winter before all survivor hives died. I personally can't spend the time on the project Jack does. I wish I could. Joining HIP might be a excellent program a bee club. Set aside a few hives and the whole group moniter and care for the survivor hives. My biggest problem has been getting survivor colonies to overwinter in Missouri. Most of my survivor hives would be alive today had I treated the survivors with chemicals like the rest of the yards. I had one survive three years ago only to die in late spring. My survivor colonies never build up and produce honey let alone produce enough for a sucessful overwinter. Good luck to Jack and his program. I do believe we will one day see a varroa tolerant bee. Hopefully sooner than later. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 09:54:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Schlafer-Parton Subject: honey plants Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bee-L, This is my first post to Bee-L. I am Joel Parton from Tennessee near Knoxville. Tim Morris wrote asking about Privet as a bee forage and for any other suggestions for a small planting. The book Honey Plants by Lovell, reprinted by Bee Culture in 1977, briefly mentions Privet (Ligustrum spp.) as being an important honey plant in England. I'm not sure this is the same Privet we have here in the States. Most references I have found do say the bees like privet but that privet honey has a disagreeable smell and very strong flavor. The best reference I've found for planting for bees can be found on the web at www.ent.msu.edu/abj. This is the series of articles The Other Side of Beekeeping by George Ayers from Michigan State University, which has run in the American Bee Journal. Not only are specific plants evaluated, but also considerations such as cost and maintenance of the planting are discussed. I would suggest that anyone wanting to plant for the bees start by evaluating what the forage sources are in their area and try to find something to augment or fill in the nectar flow gaps in their area. Tim, let us know what you decide to plant and how successful you are. Joel Parton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 12:53:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI, > It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been > artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of > breeding varroa tolerant bees. reply: Aaron I think you just hit the nail on the head! If one uses chemicals to produce resistant/ tolerant bees( bees that survive inspite of varroa) you are painting a false picture and deceiving yourself. Varroa isn't going away! Apistan and Checkmite will be at there end of usefulness soon, then what? Will breeding alone be enough to control the problem? Clay ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Morris To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 4:45 AM Subject: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:46:47 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Honey flavors etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, I hate to be negative, but a 1/2 acre of forage for a bee is microscopic. When one considers that bees cover the entire area within a 3 mile radius of their hive, this s an area of over 16,000 acres. If you have lawn grass like I do, plant white Dutch clover. It is good for you lawn and the bees will work it, but it makes things tough for walking in bare feet. George ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:13:50 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Honey flavors etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/17/01 12:21:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, MORRISTH@AOL.COM writes: << I have a book that was given to me that has a large selection of flowering plants listed in it that bees seem to like. Privet seems to be a big one--any one have any experience with this.>> Tim, I'll take all the privet honey I can get. It is nice rich, mellow and dark honey. Northern beekeepers say it is not too good. Maybe it's a different variety there. This was recently discussed on the bee list, so check the archives. <> You aren't going to have too much impact with only a half acre, but you might help them a bit during the hot summer months by planting vitex, which loves heat and keeps on blooming and blooming and blooming. For early spring, plant canola or collards in the fall. The early spring bloom yields a lot of nectar and it is a frostproof bloom. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 18:28:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >When I looked into the hives the other day I found that there was almost = >no sign of brood in any of the dead hives. I did not even find remnants of queen cells. It would be rare to find brood or queen cells in winter in a weak colony here in Indiana. >puzzled me as a fairly new beekeeper. I found clusters of what appeared = >to be white eggs about the size of the end of a number 2 lead pencil = >scatted over the frames and in the cells. This is only a guess, but it may be granulated honey. This may have contributed to the loss. It has been my experience that a weak colony has a hard time converting granulated honey to food during cold weather. Many in our association have reported large losses this winter ( 50 - 70 %) I have been fortunate with less than 15% loss. I have not seen any pollen coming in yet. The average 1st pollen for this area is March 7. Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:22:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The dynamics of honeybee and varroa populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Aaron wrote: It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of breeding varroa tolerant bees. If you are not trying to raise/ breed for varroa tolerant bees it makes no difference. If a strain is found with true varroa tolerance most of us will raise queens from the strain and within a season all our bees will be of the strain. If the Russian line had worked out a large part of my bees would be of the Russian line even though I am NOT a fan of carniolans Step one of finding varroa tolerant bees is to set aside hives and do no treatments. I find these hives by doing sticky board tests. Step two you raise queens from these hives. This step I have never got to as all have died but one which died in late spring of the next spring. If I didn't have such cold winters maybe my results would have been better. As I said before in a Bee-L post I have got a beekeeping friend which asked *Grandpa * when varroa first came what to do. *Grandpa* said let varroa kill all but the varroa tolerant colonies and raise queens from the survivors. My friend lives in Michigan. He dropped from 2000 hives to less than 200 in 1992-1993 before he gave up on *Grandpas* theory. In 1994 at the ABF convention in Orlando, Florida he was buying packages to get back in business. Putting bees back in deadouts cost serious money. I agree with Jack of the HIP project that the search should continue but I and many other beekeepers are skeptical now that a true varroa tolerant bee will be found. I had to hold back on a previous post about his survivors doing so well. I need to see the proof before I am convenced. Send a few queens to Jack at HIP for the two year test under rigid controls. Clay wrote: Aaron I think you just hit the nail on the head! If one uses chemicals to produce resistant/ tolerant bees( bees that survive inspite of varroa) you are painting a false picture and deceiving yourself. Varroa isn't going away! Apistan and Checkmite will be at there end of usefulness soon, then what? You are right about Apistan & Checkmite but the beekeeping industry is to large to be without a chemical treatment. *Apicure* (fromic acid gel) should be back on the market before we are in dire straits but the varroa control (in my opinion) will NEVER be on the level Apistan & Checkmite were (98%). Clay wrote: Will breeding alone be enough to control the problem? As Jack of HIP has said *just saying your bees are varroa tolerant is not enough*. Prove through the two year program or produce positive proof your queens are what you say they are and we will all switch. If the trait (varroa tolerance) IS passed on to the future queens then *Bingo* we have a solution. If not you keep looking as Jack says. Jack reports NO solution yet. Many beekeepers trying the Russian queens ARE using chemical controls also. They say they will remove the treatment at a later date. They say they need to get the line started before pulling the chemicals. Still adds for Russian queens make claims not backed up yet by proof. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:38:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Marc wrote: Many in our association have reported large losses this winter ( 50 - 70 %) I have been fortunate with less than 15% loss. Many high losses are being reported across the country. I was told Friday the U.S.D.A. has been asking for bee samples from several areas of the U.S.. I like Marc have had low losses and the only problem out of the ordinary has been a high instance of dysentary. If the cold winters continue I plan to winter on sucrose instead of fructose to try to limit the problem. If you had serious dysentary problems with your bees and are a hobby beekeeper you might consider leaving honey on the hives for winter instead of pulling all the honey and feeding fructose or sucrose. It has been about five years since I had serious dysentary problems with the bees. Back when we had cold winters. Our bees were confined for over two months without a cleansing flight. I saw on the news this morning our area has had the wetist spring since 1892. Strange weather extremes even for Missouri which is FAMOUS for weather extremes. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 10:20:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) In-Reply-To: <200103161514.KAA24616@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been > artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of > breeding varroa tolerant bees. This statement is true, however there are ways to have the best of both worlds, that is to treat bees -- and reap the benefits -- and still select just as quickly and effectively for desirable traits that lead to less dependence on chemical intervention. Currently the costs of not treating -- in terms of attrition -- are very high. Too high for most of us. Consequently most of us are looking to bees that need *fewer* treatments and hoping that ultimately we will ultimately arrive at bees that need no treatment, without losing too may desirable characteristics or too much of the gene pool in the process. Here's how we can select and breed without going 'cold turkey': Where all hives in an operation are treated routinely without measurement and observation first, artificial tests are necessary to find desirable survival traits in those bees and these tests which simulate the real situation may not be comprehensive enough to identify and select for all the attributes that contribute to a low mite load. However, if the same hives are sampled for disease and pests before -- or at the time of periodic treatment -- then we can measure and select using the results of real world challenges and still reap the benefits of treatment, namely survival and profit. In this latter case, after the treatment we still know which hives have promise and use them for another round of breeding and/or eliminate obvious losers from our breeding yards. This trick is simple with conditions that are easily, quickly and cheaply observed like varroa and sacbrood or chalkbrood, but a bit harder for subtler things like AFB and tracheal mites. For AFB, we usually prefer a surrogate selection technique due to the unpleasant permanent effects of inoculating hives with AFB. For tracheal, after a successful treatment we sometimes have to wait a year or more before mites return to reliably measurable levels. That makes tracheal resistance selection a bit more elusive, and inoculation of test hives or bees is often used. Let me explain further: If we want bees that do not develop many varroa mites, then we know there may a number of mechanisms that explain why one hive may have fewer mites than the one beside it. Some may relate to unique hive conditions (phenotype) such as queen fecundity or periods of queenlessness or broodlessness, others to genetic (genotype) characteristics such as attractiveness to mites, SMR or hygienic properties, grooming, or mite destruction. No matter. If we put a sticky board into every hive when we add the Apistan (or whatever) and return within a day or two and take a glance, we can see that some (many) hives have fewer mites than the hives next to them. Whatever the explanation, these hives are more likely to have some resistance mechanism or mechanisms at work. In our experience, we see hives with no obvious mite drop next to hives with hundreds. No need to count. Just mark the best of the hives with no obvious mites and consider them for breeding, and carry on. If we want hives that are not much bothered by AFB, then, to select we should use the hygienic test that was first promoted by Steve Taber, then improved by Jerry Bromenshank and more recently popularized by Marla Spivak et al. We can medicate the bees -- or not -- and apparently not affect the selection, since this test seems to be a pretty good surrogate for an actual challenge with AFB. Other than that, for diseases like EFB, sacbrood, and chalkbrood, the simple solution is to immediately reject any hive from breeding that shows any symptoms whatsoever. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- "Time's fun when you're having flies." -- Kermit the Frog ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:25:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Privet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Privet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in coastal CT USA the privet blooms just prior to sumac. Last year there was little sumac as it rained almost the entire bloom period. Honey from that time tasted pretty awful. I still think it gets covered over by other nectars and you don't notice it unless the weather shifts and there is a dearth. So far overwinter survival is at least 75% I think the stores lasted far longer with a prolonged cold and perhaps the fall sugar feeding helped keep the waste solids down. Most of my losses were packages or new queens so I agree with the folks who are bemoaning queen quality and will be raising more of my own from swarm cells providing I can keep the defensiveness tolerable. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:33:30 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: beedata Comments: To: IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com, BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All http://www.beedata.com/data3/experiment Ian Rumsey has done the math...and is determined to see if bees housed and treated as naturally as possible are capable of being the 'varroa tolerant strain' everyone seeks...watch his space! John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:50:19 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) In-Reply-To: <200103161514.KAA24616@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200103161514.KAA24616@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >Some of the mites were dented >or dismembered. The breeder was attempting to strengthen this attribute >through selective breeding. I don't know the breeder, nor have I heard >updates on his project. John Dews assisted by Albert Knight, has increased mite damage from 31% to 40% in A.m.m. by breeding for *hygienic behaviour* determined using liquid nitrogen and instrumental insemination in Yorkshire. From memory (possibly fuzzy) German breeding of A.m.c. brought the figure up to over 50%, when the bees survived on their own (if my memory serves me right). (I will ask on the BIBBA List). Albert has some data at which shows the variations. "The damage inflicted is mainly legs bitten off, sometimes the edge of the carapace damaged, and often accompanied with dents in the carapace, although the latter by itself is *not recorded* as a damaged mite. It could be that the dents in the carapace that coincide with a leg bitten off immediately below it, are due to a single bite with the bees mandibles." is a quote from Albert in a previous post to me - my emphasis. I will be doing my little bit by recording mite fall and examining for the % damage. I propose to breed from those with a low rate of increase in mite fall and high damage. I will be using open mating. We do have a reasonably isolated site. We expect resistance to pyrethroids in no less than a couple of years (it *may* have been detected this season by one of our Bee Officers where it was first found in the UK. I have taken Jack's message to heart as a warning about believing results too soon! -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:55:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: beedata MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, Ian Rumsey has done the math...and is determined to see if bees housed and treated as naturally as possible are capable of being the 'varroa tolerant strain' everyone seeks...watch his space! I see problems with Ian's math hypothesis . At least he is keeping weekly mite drop records. IF his hives live two years then he will at least have queens to breed from. I commend Ian for his experiment and will check on his site(like I already have been) to see his results. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:25:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron points out: > It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been > artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of > breeding varroa tolerant bees. > Man has attempted to "Improve" many species by breeding desired characteristics into them. The result has many times yielded disastrous results. Collie dogs have congenital retinal detachment leaving young dogs blind, many large breeds suffer from dysplastic hips, Miniature Schnauzers have congenital cataracts and temperment has suffered in many breeds. Why would bees be any different. We select for temperment, productivity and a decreased swarming tendencies. By selecting for what we want in bees, what have we given up? Swarming, by increasing feral populations, also increased gene diversity, there by increasing potential for development of natural selection against varroa as well as other diseases-AFB for example. By artificially selecting for specific genetic characteristics, at the expense of others, we weaken the species as a whole. Coleene ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron Morris To: Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:45 AM Subject: The dynamics of haoneybee and varroa populations (was Thai Bees) > > bees in Thailand ... pluck the mites from the affected bee, and kill it > with > > their mandibles. > > This grooming behavior is not unique to Thai bees. It is another > characteristic present in all populations of bees, more dominant in some > populations, less in others. I heard Steve Taber in 1997 talk about a > breeder in Germany who noticed this tendency in some of his bees by > observing dead mites with a jewelers glass. Some of the mites were dented > or dismembered. The breeder was attempting to strengthen this attribute > through selective breeding. I don't know the breeder, nor have I heard > updates on his project. But the propensity for survival IS evident in SOME > bees. Selective breeding CAN bring such characteristics to the forefront, > and we are currently guessing (probably correctly) that natural populations > are also exhibiting characteristics that allow the to better coexist with > varroa. > > It is possibly (probable?) that restocking with bees that have been > artificially kept alive with chemical treatments is contrary to a goal of > breeding varroa tolerant bees. > > Aaron Morris - thinking dynamically! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Spring around the corner In-Reply-To: <200103182037.PAA29060@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Just checked the bees today,Here in central Missouri. My bees are bring loads of pollen in.Where from , I don't know. Will the maples put out some pollen? preacher ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:02:16 -0500 Reply-To: Mark Baird Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Baird Organization: Time Warner Subject: Re: Spring around the corner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I'm not seeing it yet, the maples provide a good start for us in upstate NY. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:28:14 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Spiekhout Subject: Resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the bees become Varroa resistant, how can the survive as feral bees with tracheal mites? So,, how do we know what is happening in the feral population? Richard just wondering ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:22:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The dynamics of honeybee and varroa populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, The following I would like to comment on and expect Jerry will jump back but I feel comments need to be made. Allen wrote: If we want hives that are not much bothered by AFB, then, to select we should use the hygienic test that was first promoted by Steve Taber, then improved by Jerry Bromenshank and more recently popularized by Marla Spivak et al. We can medicate the bees -- or not -- and apparently not affect the selection, since this test seems to be a pretty good surrogate for an actual challenge with AFB. Allen has asked the list about AFB resistant bees before. The subject is touched on lightly at bee meetings. Lightly because many of the old beekeepers are still around which remember whole yards burned because of AFB. Most of us use hygenic queens. My main line is from the Marla Spivak line. The other line is out of Florida. Hygienic bees are important to me but I would consider trying to remove AFB a henderance to me finding the disease and eliminating it. I do the most looking for AFb before the Drones are active. In early spring. we look at each frame. Drones in my opinion are as big a factor as robbing in the spread of AFB. Drones are allowed free access to any hive in the spring and drift freely between hives. The idea of AFB resistant bees was dropped after years of tests in the early years when beekeeping was almost wiped out by AFB. Most beekeepers (myself included) have been treating with Terramycin to prevent the active stage of AFB. We have seen a increase in AFB over the last few years and blame resistant strains. None of us can not say for sure how widespread the problem will be when Terramycin is no longer effective at all. We have after all been masking the disease for over 40 years with Terramycin. In my opinion you either treat with a antibiotic or check and burn all AFB. I have been doing both. In my opinion AFB resistant bees are a pipe dream of our researchers. Hygenic bees appeal to me but I would hope they leave the AFB spores alone. I don't want the frames/cells cleaned. I want the frames removed by me and burned. About 200 frames of AFB were burned in a fellow beekeepers yards to the west of me last spring. He was using hygienic queens of the Florida line. There was not one indication that those bees tried to remove/clean the AFB out of those frames. All hives/frames were burned and when I talked to the beekeeper on the phone last night he reported no signs of AFB this year. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:28:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Spring around the corner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Preacher wrote: Just checked the bees today,Here in central Missouri. My bees are bring loads of pollen in.Where from , I don't know. Will the maples put out some pollen? Right now the Willows are starting to bloom. They are the first and most of the pollen is a light green color. We have found a few Maples with open blooms. I pruned fruit trees yesterday and believe the sap is deep enough in the roots that the fruit bloom will be later than normal this year. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:43:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: The dynamics of honeybee and varroa populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Coleene & All, Coleene wrote: By artificially selecting for specific genetic characteristics, at the expense of others, we weaken the species as a whole. In 1923 Rudolf Steiner predicted mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty years to viruses and parasitic mites because the honeybee was being bred for profit to a point where it has become easy prey for viruses and parasitic mites. Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 05:58:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Richard & All, Richard wrote: If the bees become Varroa resistant, how can the survive as feral bees with tracheal mites? So,, how do we know what is happening in the feral population? Most of what we have learned in recent years about feral colonies has come from the trap lines run across the southern U.S. in a attempt to check for Africanized bees. U.S. bees have in many areas adjusted to tracheal mites. Italian bees seem more likely to die from tracheal mites than other strains. Why we are not sure but I believe the Italians are affected by tracheal mites more than other strains. As far as feral colonies it is impossible to know every person keeping bees in your area in most cases. People see bees and think they are feral. If you see a bee tree then that's different. However the swarm in the tree might have only swarmed into the tree a week before from a local treated hive. Bees are still swarming . Many breeders say they can breed out swarming. The main causes of swarming can not be bred out. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:09:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: varroa resistant bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > Hello All, > Thanks to Jack for setting the record straight. Varroa tolerant bees are in > the future as our researchers all say. They just didn't say WHEN. One > noted researcher predicted (his opinion) 25 years. As for my own yard of > survivor hives. All were dead this spring. I appreciate Bob's comments on what he has found in trying to develop varroa tolerant bees. It will be a long term effort. We may have varroa tolerance in many of our bees here in the US already. The problem is, as some have noted, varroa is not necessarily the killer of the bees but virus. So we can have varroa tolerance, but the virus kills the hive when the right conditions exist in the hive. I have been told that tracheal mites and viruses thrive in crowded, cold, damp hives, the often normal condition for over wintered hives in cold climates. So why not varroa and viruses? Something I have noticed is the bees that seem most varroa tolerant are in hot climates. It may be that Varroa tolerance can be achieved in warm winter areas where crowding is at a minimum and viruses can be held in check. But take the same varroa tolerant bees and put them in harsh winters, and eventually they will die from the optimum conditions in the hive for the spread of viruses. That seems to be confirmed in the spread of AHB. The limit of their spread in both the US and SA stop were the winters are cold. They may be succumbing to viruses. This is all hypothesis, but it seem to match observations and answers a lot of questions. May also be totally off base. It does not explain the russian bees, but they do not seem to be as resistant as thought. Maybe they are virus free in their local area. Maybe we should be looking at controlling the virus as well as the mite. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Spring around the corner In-Reply-To: <200103191250.HAA17907@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I went into my hive yesterday, and had to reverse my brood chambers. Still lots of honey, bees carrying pollen (this is central Indiana, and the maple trees are just breaking out), and laid brood. This was my first winter, and since I let her loose, I'd not been able to find the queen. Yesterday I did, and she is now marked, courtesy of a drop of white-out. Apistan strips have been in for two weeks now, and I'm anticipating a strong strong year. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:26:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: The dynamics of honeybee and varroa populations In-Reply-To: <200103191336.IAA25111@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > If we want hives that are not much bothered by AFB, then, to select we > > should use the hygienic test... > > Most of us use hygienic queens... Hygienic bees are important to me > but I would consider trying to remove AFB a henderance to me finding the > disease and eliminating it. Do you encourage the weeds in your garden to bloom before pulling them and burning them? When planting a lawn do you deliberately choose grasses that are easily taken over by weeds? When I was a bee inspector, I've seen hives that thrive while surrounded by serious, endemic AFB, yet these hives did not seem to have even a single infected cell. Believe me, I looked through them carefully, too. THAT is what I mean by 'hygienic' and 'AFB resistant'. When I say 'hygienic' and 'AFB resistant', I am NOT referring to the unregulated, untested and widely varying product that breeders are currently selling as 'hygienic' queens to ride along on the wave. Such queens are a curiosity, but useless as a defence against disease. AFAIK, there is no breeder that guarantees and certifies that *every* queen in *every* batch sold is hygienic even to an 80% hygienic level. Unless we have that guarantee, we are buying a leaky bucket. AFB will get through such a defence right away. As I wrote before, but many seem to have missed, the problem with 'hygienic' bees available now is that for every 100% hygienic queen we get, we stand a good chance of getting 2 that are NOT strong enough in the hygienic characteristic to thrive in the presence of spores and eliminate the disease on their own. Any hive receiving such a *partially hygienic* queen is either marginally or totally unprotected. If we receive even one non-hygienic queen in a batch of 'hygienic' queens, and if the stock will not hold a high level of the trait through supercedure, then we are getting no real benefit. As I have said before, and will repeat here: if we want to get off the chemical and manual labour treadmill that AFB keeps us on, we will have to have some independent quality control certification that guarantees us that very batch of queens is as consistent as every pail of OTC we buy. Would you buy and trust OTC or fumigillan or Apistan if it were as variable as the queens on the market? If you could have 100% hygienic hives that are like the ones I describe above, and could quit medicating for AFB, would you prefer to have hives that are susceptible so you could remove the AFB by hand? Over and over again? Our current AFB practices are equivalent to encouraging weeds to go to seed in a garden. These practices provide a steady income for the regulators and inspectors and equipment manufacturers, but do nothing for the poor beekeeper. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language. -- D. E. Knuth, 1967 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:00:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: AFB resistent bees - pipe dream or reality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob Harrison wrote, "In my opinion AFB resistant bees are a pipe dream of our researchers." In the same post he wrote, "We have after all been masking the disease for over 40 years with Terramycin." It is commonly accepted that AFB resistent bees that had been isolated through selective breeding have been lost back to the gene pool mainly because it was easier to address AFB using TM. Rather than continuing to maintain AFB resistent stock, the genes regressed back into the gene pool as beekeepers easily "mask(ed) the disease for over 40 years with Terramycin." Many researchers claimed to have isolated AFB resistence in open mated queens, including Steve Taber and Dr. Roger Morse. I have not seen their data nor was I there to evaluate their bees to substantiate (or not) their claims, but I have no reason to doubt their word and many reasons to accept their claims without doubt. With AI methods, other researchers (Roger's replacement for one) claim they could isolate AFB resistence within two years. The problem right now is procurring funding required to substantiate the claim. And as always, there's the issue of incentive for producing resistent queens. At $10 or $12 a pop, considering overhead, where is the incentive for breeders to invest in developing resistent queens? What will be the price of the resistent queens? Will the marketplace bear what SHOULD be the price of resistent queens? Consider Jack's HIP project. I assume Jack is incurring substantial losses in his quest. I know a member of his program personally, who has given up selling nucs until he is able to claim he's selling a superior product. For him that means lean years ahead as nuc sales are the majority of his livelyhood. So, consider the costs in developing a resistent queen and balance that against what you'll be willing to pay for a queen. Certainly current prices won't support the production costs. Will double the price? $25 a queen? I doubt it. Now, if a truely resistent queen is developed, costs of the queen can be balanced against costs of artificially keeping colonies alive, but the queens must be truely resistent. How will we know? Will the queens come with money back guarantees? Will AFB queens also be mite resistent? Both tracheal mires AND varroa mites? ALL varieties of varroa mites? It's a tough task finding a solution. Perhaps Bob's skepticism has some solid basis. Aaron Morris - thinking better bees through better breeding, and willing to pay for it! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:23:15 -0500 Reply-To: lloydspear@email.msn.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: AFB resistent bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron made several good points...but: 1. I have kept bees for over 30 years in locations relatively near Aaron and, until last year, never used terramycin. Last year I used it to clear up some EFB in about 5 hives, but didn't use it for the other hives. 2. I know another beekeeper nearby who has not used terramycin for "over 10 years", and has not seen any AFB. Moreover, he is a commercial beekeeper who would recognize it if it were there. 3. I am fortunate to meet beekeepers from around the country as I travel to seminars. It is not unusual for "old-timers" to report that they have not treated and not seen AFB for 20+ years. Nor is it unusual for newcomers to report that they have never used terramycin "because we didn't know it was necessary". 4. I know one queen breeder who does not use terramycin and reports that they "occasionally" see both EFB and AFB and destroy bees and comb from both. They figure that the remainder of their bees have resistance. Dr. Shiminuki recommends stopping the use of terramycin "one yard at a time", presumably because he would expect at least some yards to show resistance. Something seems to be wrong here. Either AFB is not as endemic as described or resistance is widespread. Comments? Lloyd Mailto:Lloyd@rossrounds.com. Lloyd Spear Owner, Ross Rounds, Inc. The finest in comb honey production. Visit our web site at http://www.rossrounds.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:38:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ARNOLD JONES Subject: Re: Honey flavors etc In-Reply-To: <200103170520.AAA17469@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii try pear for a 3d nectar profile. they can be set close and and the clover will do well in the thin shade. I also use a lemon thyme that my bees gorge on and produces the sweetest honey I have tasted for all ground cover areas. I also slip and sow road sides and neighbors fields and yards or ask them they don't mind (of course there will always be one that does) works for me arnold jones east tn. ===== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:26:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: ? eggs inside dead hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am a first year beekeeper and I have had three of my 5 hives die already here in South Central KS. I am finding these small white egg-looking objects as well. The colonies died because they were too weak going into winter. The cluster in each of these hives amounted to only a frame and a half of bees. I have also seen some signs of robbing as there is some exposed honey on some of the bottom deep frames. The eggs are scattered around the empty combs but are concentrated in the areas of exposed honey. The honey still drips so I don't think it's crystals. Since the hives were weak to begin with I am wondering if they are wax moth eggs? Billy Smart Rock, KS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: M Lathan Subject: Trying Slatted Rack but.... I stacked-up my new hive equipment for painting on Saturday and it dawned on me that I don't know how to use the 'Slatted Rack'. I know it sits atop the bottom board - but- it has a deep side and a shallow side - WHICH is the TOP side? Either way - doesn't it get loaded with burr-comb? Thank You. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:12:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: Re: The dynamics of honeybee and varroa populations In-Reply-To: <200103191401.JAA27835@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Feral honeybees have not been a part of this breeding program and they have suffered most from the parasites. It's been a long time since I saw a wild honeybee in my garden. Recent messages suggest the wild bees are adapting to becoming more disease and parasite resistant. Without the breeding programs, the domestic beekeeping program might have collapsed long before this. >In 1923 Rudolf Steiner predicted mankind would lose the honeybee in eighty >years to viruses and parasitic mites because the honeybee was being bred for >profit to a point where it has become easy prey for viruses and parasitic >mites. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:46:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Bees in Cyberspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the San Diego ABF meeting Aaron gave a presentation called 'Bees in Cyberspace'. The presentation showed a real, on-screen quick tour of places to go for bee info on the web. The tour is ideal for introducing newcomers to what is out there. He gave out disks of his presentation at the convention and I had a copy on my laptop. Yesterday I got an email from a beekeeper who is introducing his club to the internet and I remembered the disk. With Aaron's approval, I have put it at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee/Aaron.htm It is also available from the main menu at my home page below. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I went to a 7-11 and asked for a 2x4 and a box of 3x5's. The clerk said, "ten-four." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:22:46 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Resistant Bees? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: William Morong <"morharn@mint.net"@MINT.NET> Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Slatted racks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use slatted racks here. The space goes below. For some reason, though the space under the slats is many times one bee-space, my bees never have built comb under them. Some do leave some globs of wax and propolis on the floor, just as they do without racks. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:37:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Tilia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I'm responding to a recent thread about lime (basswood) which may have poisoned bees. George Ayers, in a July 1993 article in ABJ (available online at http://www.ent.msu.edu/abj/jul93.html) describes several European species of Tilia as 'sometimes toxic to bees'. This is supported by Ted Hooper, 'Guide to Bees and Honey', according to which T. petiolaris and T. orbicularis 'have been known to poison bees in some seasons'. EB Wedmore, in 'A Manual of Beekeeping' says that T. tormentosa and T. petiolaris 'should be avoided'. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:38:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Redoing old Bee Equipment Hello All, I and help have spent the day going through equipment of a operation I bought out. At times I can't believe the amount of improperly assembled equipment i Come across. Makes you want to never buy used equipment. Improperly wired frames. Leaving out the two nails in the end bars. Not predrilling holes before nailing causing needless splits in wood parts. Sadly I burn many pieces which if properly assembled I would have put in service. Please think of the next beekeeper to use your equipment and put together properly. I do. The wood came from a proud tree growing in the forest. Its a shame to throw equipment together wasting a precious resource. Many times former beekeepers are insulted by a offer for their used equipment. Boxes with AFB. Boxes solid with wax moth damage. Quite a bit of elbow grease is involved putting used equipment back in service. Letting off steam after a day cleaning up another beekeepers deadouts. A couple weeks and the job should be done. Then I will feel better looking at all the equipment ready to go to the bees. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "Thinking junk brings junk price and ready to use equipment bring a quick buyer" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 15:58:00 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Tilia intoxication Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Thank you for all the comments and information that you folks sent in= response to my inquiry, both via the list and direct to me. It has been= great to read everything that was sent. I thought I would briefly= summarize what I have found out in case other people are interested. I= meant to write this at the end of last week, but forgot. Robert= Brenchley's posting today jogged my memory. The general opinion is that bee dying is associated with Tilia in Europe,= where it has been a subject of debate for many years. There are reports of= it happening as far back as 1908. There doesn't seem to be any reports of= bee death around Tilia in the U.S., though I was sent a photocopy of a= page from "Manual of Landscape Plants" that mentions that bees find the= leaves of Silver linden (Tilia petiolaris) "narcotic or poisonous and can= be found in large numbers on the ground under such trees." In all, three= species were named in the postings as being potentially bad: T.= petiolaris, T. orbicularis, and T. tormentosa. As for why this happens, no one is quite sure. There seem to be three= threads to this: 1. Tilia is a late-flowering tree, when there are not many other sources of= nectar, so it is old bees that forage and literally work themselves to= death. 2. Starvation, as in urban areas there is little else for the bees to= forage on and the trees cannot produce enough nectar to feed all the bees.= (Research showed dead bees had empty stomachs.) 3. Poisoning due to the sugar mannose, which bees cannot metabolize. As a foot note, bumble bee intoxication is fairly common on several= flowers, possibly due to a parasite disrupting the nervous system. So, thank you very much for all the suggestions and information I have= received. As I said, it has been interesting to read it all and I= certainly feel that I learnt something from this. Best wishes, Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Program and Publications The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org _____________________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website: http://www.xerces.org/ _____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 21:17:53 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Lab for honey testing? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone point me to a good lab on the East Coast USA, for running a variety of tests of honey, for a natural foods processor? Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 06:42:44 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Redoing old Bee Equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is exactly why I now build all of my own equipment. I build everything but frames from scrap wood I obtain from a local mill. By using what they call kindling, I can build supers for about $1.00 per. Covers and bottoms cost even less. I buy my frames new. That way I know they are put together correctly. Besides, have you ever tried to recondition old frames? I think the time spent is too valuable! Remember the saying - "good wood on bad." Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello All, > I and help have spent the day going through equipment of a operation I > bought out. At times I can't believe the amount of improperly assembled > equipment i Come across. Makes you want to never buy used equipment. > Improperly wired frames. Leaving out the two nails in the end bars. Not > predrilling holes before nailing causing needless splits in wood parts. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:39:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Redoing old Bee Equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/19/01 11:52:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << At times I can't believe the amount of improperly assembled equipment i Come across. >> The one that really gets me is grabbing for a handhold, only to find that piece was assembled upside down.... Someone must have been sleepwalking. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:30:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: irradiating honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Some of you might know the answer to this: Why does South Africa law require the irradiating of imported honey? It is my understanding that the only honey that would benefit (if not damaged by this process) is honey that has been adulterated. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 06:54:17 -0800 Reply-To: troutski@ap.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Osborne Subject: Swarm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Weather finally turned nice in Sonoma County, Ca on Sunday. Noticed one crowded hive swarmed at ~`1:30 Monday P.M. Caught it, but boy did the girls build up fast in the last 4 weeks! Colony is 1 yr old, Taber Yugo stock, in three mediums. I went to reverse the boxes on the remaining hive, and what a bunch of angry bees! After a Swarm leaves, I guess it's best to leave the parent colony alone? Thanks, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:51:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jose Joaquin Rosas Subject: smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have so many problems with my smoke tool...(don't know the exact word in english...) highly appreciate any recomendation to start it quickly and to keep it running for a long time... I use eucalyptus seeds as fuel, but aparently that is part of my problem, any advice on what else can I use as fuel will be highly appreciate. any comments, please forward them directly to josejrosas@hotmail.com regards, Jose Joaquin Rosas josejrosas@hotmail.com Colombia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leigh" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:30 AM Subject: irradiating honey > Some of you might know the answer to this: Why does South Africa law > require the irradiating of imported honey? It is my understanding > that the only honey that would benefit (if not damaged by this > process) is honey that has been adulterated. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 13:32:35 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Michigan- Hive report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just finished checking my eight hives near Pontiac Michigan (Weather sunny and near 50 degrees.) - all are alive, tho two are weak and probably won't make it. Rearranged two hives to make sure they could get to honey. Will put in apistan on next visit if we get more 40 ish weather this week. One hive is VERY strong- Completely covering about half the frames. Bees were flying and bringing in lots of very bright orange pollen- I have no Idea where they are getting it from- the pussy willows aren't blooming yet. Could it be Skunkweed? There are lots of marshes and swamps in the area. Ellen Anglin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:35:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Another report from the Great White North MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy Spring Everyone- I lost one hive of the 4 I went into winter with. The other 3 are alive with feed on them. One had few bees going into winter and that one was the one I expected to lose. We have been near (if one considers 43 degrees near) 50 for the past 3 days and all hives have shown activity. Unless they are collecting water there is not much else going on up here and we are expecting more snow this weekend. We are hopeful July will bring warm enough temperatures to actually look into the hives! Coleene Central lower Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 17:04:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: creative honey packaging I have a honey customer who didn't like to have to unscrew a jar lid every time he wanted to use the honey, so he asked me to give him a container that was easier to handle. I know a squeeze bottle is easier, but I didn't have one available, so it occurred to me that honey is approximately the same consistency as liquid hand soap, so I bought a pump type dispenser bottle for him to use to dispense his honey. It ought to work fine and be easy to use. the only real downside is the cost of the pump. I have never seen honey sold anywhere with a pump type dispenser. Has anyone on the list used this? If so, how did it work out? Was it popular? Layne Westover, College Station, Texas, U.S.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:25:03 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Neon Rosell Subject: Queen stopped laying In-Reply-To: <200103200515.AAA05347@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello everybody, I’m from the Philippines. Six weeks ago I made a three frame nuc and introduced a young mated queen imported from Australia. Upon inspecting it after six weeks I found a normal looking queen and some sealed brood but no eggs or unsealed brood. Let me give you some background first so that you can analyze my situation better. The queen (Carniolan) came in a queen cage and after three days was already released and was already laying. The three frames were two almost sealed brood and one honey frame. The average temperature for this period was 32-34 deg C and maximums of 35-36 deg C. The humidity was also high. The temperature was a little less when I introduced the queen, it was from 29-32 deg C. The hive was the conventional Langstroth hive with a solid inner cover. The entrance was reduced to about an inch. No treatments were administered during this period. There is also a honey flow. I’m assuming that the sealed brood was the offspring of the new queen since it only takes 21 days for the brood to immerge and it is already going to its second cycle of brood. After I located the queen I observed it for awhile. The queen was calm and was seen inspecting the cells and was in the process of laying, inserting her abdomen into each cell. The only problem was she was doing it so fast that only half her abdomen enters the cell and then she retracts it. She was observed doing it on every open cell but no eggs were being deposited. The brood pattern was also patchy but maybe it was due to chalkbrood since there were mummies on the bottom board and in front of the entrance. I also introduced three other queens with no problem. The only difference was the hive type. The three other hives were with a migratory hive cover without an inner cover. There were also four one inch ventilation holes in it. I was wondering what factors could have affected the queen to produce this kind of behavior (high temp?). Could the lesser ventilation made it difficult for the bees to maintain the hive temperature as to affect the queen? I know that I have to change the queen but I need to know what might have caused it to avoid future occurrences. I will try to change the cover and see if it does any good. Maybe it has affected the queen to a point of no cure? Will see how it goes. Any feedback will be highly appreciated. Thank you and God bless. Neon Resell II Cainta, Rizal Philippines __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:10:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Les Roberts Subject: Re: creative honey packaging In-Reply-To: <200103210244.VAA09899@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One thing to be concerned about is if the pump you bought is certified ok for food. Not all plastics and pump mechanisms would necessarily be appropriate. Certain syrups, ketchup and mustard are sometimes in pump containers for easy dispensing, but I suspect that these are only for 1 gallon containers for "stadium" use. At 05:04 PM 3/20/01 -0600, you wrote: >I have never seen honey sold anywhere with a pump type dispenser. Has anyone >on the list used this? If so, how did it work out? Was it popular? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1904 13:39:24 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Don Cole Subject: Formic Pads Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a source of pre-cut absorbant material suitable for short term formic acid application. PH number or address appreciated. San Marcos Farms Don Cole ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 21:59:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Trying Slatted Rack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, M. Lathum. The bees act as if they do not consider the area under the bottom frames as being "in the hive" so do not fill it with burr comb. Locate the "unslatted" portion at the front with the larger space on top. This provides the most room for the bees to "hang out". Dan Hendricks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:08:46 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Trying Slatted Rack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Oops, I mispoke!. Like Bill, I put the larger space down. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:57:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Trying Slatted Rack MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Slatted racks are discussed thoroughly in the archives, over 35 hits since January 1996. Search the BEE-L archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l For the record, one more time, the slats go up, the fat slat goes to the front, the deep side goes down. Aaron Morris - thinking Search the Archives! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 10:44:21 -0800 Reply-To: "morharn@mint.net"@mint.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong <"morharn@mint.net"@MINT.NET> Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Report, central Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'ts getting melty warm, and the bees are all over the yard picking up water. Though ten days or so ago they were so thick under the cover that I could't evaluate their stores, yesterday there were fewer up there, but many more outside. They apparently have enough stores, as they're not downing sugar, and it looks like there's honey in the frames, but they did seem interested in some artificial pollen patties. They all seem very strong, and their mood is excellent. We are still weeks away from much outdoor food. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Formic Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Take a look at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Formic/Default.htm it has a good method of application along with easy to find applicators. > > Does anyone have a source of pre-cut absorbant material > suitable for short > term formic acid application. PH number or address appreciated. > > San Marcos Farms > Don Cole > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 12:51:56 -0500 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: KEITH B.FORSYTH Subject: Re: Formic Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: If you are in Canada, particularly Ontario, try contacting : Munro Honey munhoney@excelco.on.ca tel. 1-519-847-5333 They supply MiteWipes. or NOD Apiary Products Ltd. 613-395-5398 riverval@kos.net They supply Mite-Away , the single application formic acid pad ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:27:23 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: Re: creative honey packaging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- > ...so it occurred to me that honey is approximately the same > consistency as liquid hand soap, so I bought a pump type dispenser bottle for > him to use to dispense his honey. It ought to work fine and be easy to use. > the only real downside is the cost of the pump. i'm not sure what its like in tx, but unless u have a cap for the end of the dispensing nozzle i foresee a major ant problem :-( ..... and....... what a hassle it's gonna be cleaning that thing out from time to time. i guess u cld just interchange it....... honey this month, soap next month, and so on.... hehehehehe. cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:54:55 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: - irradiating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some of you might know the answer to this: Why does South Africa law > require the irradiating of imported honey? It is my understanding > that the only honey that would benefit (if not damaged by this > process) is honey that has been adulterated. I have been told by South Africans that it is basically as a disease control method. It is known that both European foulbrood, American foulbrood and chalkbrood spores are killed by irradiation. All these three can be transferred in honey and South Africa was looking to keep diseases, they do not have, out. Here in Australia, we use irradiated honey for making queen candy. I do not know if irradiation helps adulterated honey. Maybe someone can enlighten us on this. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:57:07 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: - creative honey packaging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > so I bought a pump type dispenser bottle for him to use to dispense his > honey. I have never seen honey sold anywhere with a pump type dispenser. Has > anyone on the list used this? If so, how did it work out? Was it popular? Our local bee club uses them for dispensing honey for public tasting. The honey is put onto plastic spoons. They are commonly used to dispense food items like flavouring for making milk shakes (not sure if they are called the same in the USA). They are a food grade plastic. I haven't seen them used for dispensing honey for sale. Only tasting where a small quantity is needed for a taste. Based on the experiences I have seen there is no reason to expect that they will not work. As honey gets thick in cold temperatures, the club dispensing bar has around six (6) of these units in a decorative wooden box which has a 20 watt electric light bulb in the bottom. Just enough heat to keep the honey in a runny state. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: Marc Sevigny Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Sevigny Subject: Early Spring feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live in Central Massachusetts and have several hives that are low of food stores. Can I start to feed syrup at this point? Should I use 2-1 or 1-1 ratio of sugar to water? Will this stimulate the bees to overpopulate too early? Thanks for advice, Marc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 15:11:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Birmingham UK - Report Hi All. My single hive came through the first 'real' winter we've had in ten years strongly, with bees clustering across seven frames, and an examination of floor debris showing very few mites. A couple of weeks ago the temperature shot up to the mid-fifties, and the bees were bringing in large quantities of pollen. After a week of mild weather I opened the hive, and found eggs and brood under three days old over about four frames, and a single patch of sealed brood the size of my palm. Since Saturday it's been snowing again, on and off. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com