From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:46 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDjs18793 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:45 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDgJ12724 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDgJ12724@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0103D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 119568 Lines: 2390 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 22:37:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Early Spring feeding Comments: To: Marc Sevigny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Marc & All, I live in Central Massachusetts and have several hives that are low of food stores. Hives low on stores need to be fed. Not knowing the particulars of your situation makes advice kind of general. Weather is a big problem with winter feeding. The safest way to feed is to use a frame of sealed honey out of one of your other hives. Second is to make candy. Recipes are in the archives and bee books. Like making fudge. Place the *candy* directly over the cluster. > Can I start to feed syrup at this point? You can if the weather is warm enough for the bees to break cluster. What happens many times with early feeding is the bees break cluster and go to the feeder in the day. Then the temperature drops rapidly and they don't make it back to the cluster. Wraping hives helps with rapid drops in temperature. If the temperature in your area has been warm enough for the bees to fly and move around the hive then in a few hours they should pack the syrup into the cluster. Should I use 2-1 or 1-1 ratio of sugar to water? Most beekeepers (myself included) use the lighter mix for spring feeding. Will this stimulate the bees to overpopulate too early? Depends on the amount you feed. I doubt a gallon now would be a big problem. Pollen is more of a stimulant than syrup. These answers are fairly general. I could maybe give better advice with exact situation details. Hope I have helped. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:29:35 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: irradiating honey In-Reply-To: <200103201406.JAA14552@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Imported honey into South Africa is indeed required by law to be irradiated to destroy any possible traces of AFB and EFB, two diseases we don't have and can do without. What is ironic though is that I have never seen honey on the shelves indicating that it has been irradiated. One can only hope that this honey is being used by the baking\confectionary trade and not being blended into local honey and being sold as local produce. Our legislation on honey labels requires the printing of the address of the beekeeper and should it be imported that it has been irradiated. Mel Kayton Sunnyside Farm South Africa -----Original Message----- Some of you might know the answer to this: Why does South Africa law require the irradiating of imported honey? It is my understanding that the only honey that would benefit (if not damaged by this process) is honey that has been adulterated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 17:55:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Matthew W." Subject: Good Paint on old Bee Equipment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was a thread a few years back where a beekeeper asked "how long woodenware should last?". Some were saying they traded in their gear every five years. Painting my way through college gave me a 'heads-up' on paint. A few nails and two coats of a good exterior paint should do wonders to eek out another decade or two on old beehives. Lighter colors will reflect the sun and allow the paint to last longer. Paints with sheen will shed water and dirt FAR better than those without, giving you years over flat paint. Oil base primer will set itself into bare wood better than latex based primers. Kwal's "Liquid Vinyl" is one of the better 'contractor' grade paints as far as value. Benjamin Moore is similar but expensive. Sherwinn-Williams and Kelly Moore have their good & bad line of paints. Whatever brand you choose, it should be somewhat elastic. When you clean out the bucket at the end of the day, the dried paint should be more like a rubber band than chalk. I've always wondered if oil based paint would kill AFB spores since it has a dissolving effect on wax. Anyone? As for finding mistakes on used equipment, I remember a winner that was constructed inside out - handle divets to the inside. Good season to all! Matthew Westall > equipment i Come across. Makes you want to never buy used equipment. > Improperly wired frames. Leaving out the two nails in the end bars. Not > predrilling holes before nailing causing needless splits in wood parts. -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 21:46:04 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Formic Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Cole wrote: > > Does anyone have a source of pre-cut absorbant material suitable for short > term formic acid application. PH number or address appreciated. Its been a while but I seems to recall someone saying those absorbent pads used in meat trays at the grocery would work. I could be way wrong but it almost seems like Allen Dick was the one who mentioned this. Obviously you would want to obtain the pads *before* they were used in the meat tray. I've never used formic acid so I can't speak from any experience. From what Allen has said about the stuff I'm not too eager to mess with it. 'Course from what I hear, he's retired.... AL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 08:38:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: shilliff@JUNO.COM Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron and all, Now that spring is here or almost here,does anyone have reports on how well the Russian strain of bees did in the battle with mites and wintering? Nick Shilliff-central NY state where it is still winter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 09:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: spring feeding Marc asks about spring feeding in Mass. Go ahead and feed. 1:1 ratio is fine, either by weight or volume. Strong hives that might want to swarm are just what you want...but give them plenty of room so they don't swarm! You are unlikely to overfeed as the brood population is what counts (compared to the adult population) and that is going to be limited by pollen rather than by syrup. You need adult populations to collect the pollen, keep the brood warm, etc., and that needs syrup or honey. the hatched brood population is what will eventually collect your honey surplus. Hope this helps, Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Russian Queens In-Reply-To: <200103221401.JAA08464@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My Russian queen brought thru Kelley's last spring has been fine. My first year got about 70lbs of honey, no counting what I left on for winter stores. I left far too much on, as a look at the two brood chambers last Sunday showed sigificant honey stores still... I could have removed all the supers with honey stores on them. The queen is actively laying now. We found brood. I've been feeding them 1:1 syrup for a few weeks, and have had apistan strips in for 2½ weeks now. I may be pushing the season slightly. In spite of a lot of dead bees around the hive, in the show, I have a strong and enthusiastic hive. I have a sting on my nose to show for it. Lots of workers. A few were sighted inside loaded with pollen. We're in Central Indiana, and crocuses have just been open a week. Some debris on the bottom board, which hadn't been examined since last summer. Apistan treatments late last summer, and now. No sign of mites, on the bees, on the bottom board. I've never had a hive before this one. So I cannot compare the Russian queen to anything. However, I'm very very happy. And my nose stopped burning. At 08:38 AM 3/22/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Aaron and all, >Now that spring is here or almost here,does anyone have reports on how >well the Russian strain of bees did in the battle with mites and >wintering? >Nick Shilliff-central NY state where it is still winter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 19:04:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Early Spring feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Bob, As you know, I agree with you most of the time, but in your note to Marc in Massachusetts about feeding, I have a totally different attitude. You said winter feeding is tough, and I don't agree. You said the safest thing to do is feed a frame of honey from one of your other hives, and I don't agree. You mentioned wrapping hives. I don't think many hives are wrapped anymore in Mass. You are a few miles away from Kansas City, and I am just 15 miles north of Washington, DC in Maryland, so you and I are on the same latitude of 39° Feeding honey requires getting a frame next to the cluster, and I dare not break a cluster in chilly weather. Honey, even from my own hives could have disease pathogens in it that I might be unaware of. Feeding honey in the spring requires flying weather for a water source to dilute the honey for nursing larva. Same thing is true with "candy" - it requires a water source. I much prefer always using sugar syrup. No chance of disease, do oddball honey sugars that can cause diarrhea, no need for a water source, and no need to disturb the cluster. In very cold weather, like 0°, you can remove the inner cover and place a jar of syrup directly on top of the frames in contact with the cluster, or even 4 gallon jars with a big cluster. In March, putting a jar on the inner cover hole is fine. If I have to feed at all, I feed 2:1 sugar syrup in the fall up to February 1st, and then I use 1:1 sugar syrup in February and March to stimulate queen laying. My Carniolans right now have as many as 10-12 Illinois frames of brood and we have day temperatures of 50°-60° I hope you have a fine season, Bob. George Imirie - starting my 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's Monthly PINK PAGES EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Maryland's delegate to AFB and ex-delegate to NHB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 14:06:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Churchill Subject: VarroaPop v2.0 - Varroa mite population simulation In-Reply-To: <200103221946.OAA21815@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Carl Hayden Bee Research Center has released version 2.0 of their Varroa Mite population simulator. The software allows you to control "the initial population size, queen egg laying potential, and mite reproduction rates, so you can see how these factors influence both colony and mite population growth. " There is an article about it on Wired: http://wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,42316,00.html More details can be found and the software downloaded from: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/soft/vpop/vpop.html Mike Churchill, Beginning Beekeeper | What's the buzz all about? mike.churchill@netmechanic.com http://www.netmechanic.com - Power Tools for Your Web Site Link and HTML testing, Server Reliability Testing, Website Promotion Tools ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 06:13:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Queen stopped laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Neon. A larva which is about ready to be sealed comes from an egg laid 9 days ago, not 3 days ago. Was the queen marked? It sounds to me like you may have a supersedure queen in your hive. Bees have no trouble controlling the ventilation in their hive absent really severe conditions. I wouldn't expect that to be causative of anything. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 16:12:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wajih daour Subject: Are queens reared in starting colonies only better than completed in finishing colonies. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear beekeepers, I noticed that queen cells produced by grafting in starting queenless = colonies and stay their until closed are bigger than those transferred = above a queen excluder in queen right colony.Can experts confirm that = the queens in the first case are better?. Thanks Wajih Daour. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 04:41:39 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Neon Rosell Subject: Queen stopped laying Comments: cc: DoverProp@aol.com In-Reply-To: <200103230512.AAA11643@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Paul and all, I posted a query several days ago regarding “queen stopped laying”. I suspected the queen was affected by the high temperature in the hive and adjusted the hive configuration to increase ventilation. After several days the queen was still acting the same, trying to lay eggs, aborting halfway into the process. So I thought she might have been damaged irreparably and decided to just replace her. When I located her and grabbed her by the wings a yellowish fluid was extruded (squirted) from her vent. It was not viscous and the amount was huge, about a drop. I placed her in a queen cage for more observations. I noticed that her abdomen was somewhat dented on the sixth segment. I was really careful not to grab here along her abdomen. Could this be an effect of the temperature or it is some disease? Please, if anybody has experience with this to reply ASAP so that I could do some remedial actions incase it is a disease to prevent its spread and reoccurrence. Thank you, Neon Resell II Cainta, Rizal Philippines __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 06:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Nick Shilliff asked about the Russian strain of bees and how they did in the battle with mites and wintering. Frankly I can't say. I had a neighbor intentionally poison the bees robbing a stack of wet supers in October and attribute heavy winter losses to the incident. All my hives (50) within flying distance of the poisoned supers are dead this spring. I had two Russian queens in an out yar. Both survived the winter, but winter's not over here yet. I think by the time the weather breaks, one will be doing well, one will be a dink. As far as mite counts go it's too soon to know. I have not been impressed by the Russians so far, but I'm not ready to write them off. As Shim put it, the Russian queens are an experiment in progress. Unfortunately this will be a rebuilding year for me and I won't have the hive numbers to do much experimenting. Aaron Morris - thinking about moving.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:02:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Queen stopped laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Neon & All, When I located her and grabbed her by the wings a yellowish fluid was extruded (squirted) from her vent. It was not viscous and the amount was huge, about a drop. I would suspect either Nosema or dysentary. I would replace her. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 10:43:05 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Frey Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all I wintered 5 hives of Russians, they where started as packages last spring on drawn comb in a single deep. We had a somewhat poor year last year for nectar flow I fed them thru late summer early fall, they finished out a double deep chamber and went into winter with a full top story and a large cluster. As of late March, 4 are alive and building up 1 was found dead the result of what I suspect was a lost queen (no sign of brood very few bees) 1 of the 4 live hives is a real buster. I also wintered 5 Italians and 6 Carnolians, Lost 2 Italians and 1 Carnolian these appear to be starve outs, We have had the worst winter here in years for sustained cold periods and good weather still hasn't arrived, but feeding 1:1 is getting things started, pollen is being brought in on the few flying days the ladies have had. Looking for spring in SE PA. Garry Frey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 08:57:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, Frankly I can't say. I had a neighbor intentionally poison the bees robbing a stack of wet supers in October and attribute heavy winter losses to the incident. All my hives (50) within flying distance of the poisoned supers are dead this spring. Sadly this situation happens all to often. Happened to a friend of mine in Texas. Lost the whole yard. Most the time you don't know what happened to your bees. His bees were robbing at a honey house of another beekeeper which didn't keep bees at his extracting area. The beekeeper put out tainted honey. All the beekeeper said when asked about the incident was. "You shouldn't have set your bees so close and he didn't think the bees would fly all the way back to my friends hives before dying." My friend was VERY upset and doesn't keep bees close to the other beekeeper now. I personally would NEVER do such a thing but there are beekeepers which will. The idea is if the bees robbing do not make it back to the hive then others will not come and eventually the problem will stop. Aarons bees were to close so (like my friends ) all his hives died. If Aarons hives had been farther away they would be low in populations instead of dead and Aaron would have been wondering why. Sorry for your loss Aaron. Like all things beekeeping has a few bad apples. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 00:59:58 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "JOEL F. MAGSAYSAY" Subject: Re: Queen stopped laying In-Reply-To: <200103231357.IAA19826@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Neon, Nosema exhibits symptoms in workers first. They crawl on the ground in front of entrances, sometimes climbing and falling off blades of grass. "K" wing is a dead giveaway. This is where the front and hind wings (both sides or either) get unhooked. Pull out the last segment of the abdomen including the sting. If the stomach and intestines are swollen and cloudy then the bee has nosema. Sounds like your queen has a damaged abdomen. More likely, if her abdomen is very distended and tender, she has septicemia. Requeening is the only solution I have found. Also, if one has raised enough queens, some cell starters / cell builders will be prone to produce queens that are very large but have difficulty laying eggs. I usually put them out of cell building / finishing and into honey production. Lastly, I have found that island born queens raised from good foreign stock are the best. I have imported thousands of first generation (F1)queens from all over the world, except Africa and South America, and only 30 to 40% go into honey production. A measly 1% to 3% are good enough to breed second generation (F2) queens from. Some bee breeders produce very good breeder queens (F0), but they are expensive and tricky to import. Lastly, I hope you are not using second hand equipment. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite Highlands, Philippines joel@ilogmaria.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 11:36:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: AFB resistent bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Lloyd, I have been thinking about this post of yours for a few days now. It is interesting and does make one think. You wrote in part at the end of a very interesting list: "Dr. Shiminuki recommends stopping the use of terramycin "one yard at a time", presumably because he would expect at least some yards to show resistance. Something seems to be wrong here. Either AFB is not as endemic as described or resistance is widespread. Comments?" Hmm, I also have observed similar things but not sure we are coming to the same conclusion but we probably are not far apart on this either. First my observations here in MN are that nearly all spread of AFB is connected with used equipment - read used broodcombs. There of course is some spread due to bees robbing out AFB killed colonies but that appears to be mostly a factor within a yard or over fairly short distances ( considerably less than what normal foraging distances ). Really don't have an explanation for this observation but it seems to be the case. If a beekeeper starts with new equipment they are very unlikely to have any disease problems for at least the first few years after which chalkbrood may start to show up. Many old-timers are very good at identifying AFB and limiting its spread within their outfit but if they don't exchange used equipment with other beekeepers or buy used equipment their exposure to AFB is very limited. At the same time AFB does o! ccur nearly everywhere if you start to plot occurrences on a map. But is tends to run within outfits more than in geographical areas. My conclusion is used combs are the main source of AFB and AFB is really not that contagious compared to some other diseases of animals i.e. spread is fairly slow in an area unless you innoculate a colony with the huge amount of spores in used infected combs. The clear implication of this is that we beekeepers are the main source of spread of AFB. While that thought is not always easy to accept it means that we can control most spread of AFB and therefore vastly limit its damage to our beekeeping outfits and our beekeeping neighbors. If a beekeeper has not acquired used combs they can likely stop using TM without any disease problems but if they have used combs in the outfit they better go slowly or they risk a major outbreak that will be difficult to deal with effectively at once. Therefore the go one yard at a time advice. Most beekeeping outfits have used comb from many sources ( talking commercial sized outfits here ) and often have scale scattered around the outfit as a result that can and will seed an outbreak if they stop using antibiotics. We have seen this here with TM resistance i.e. major outbreaks of AFB in an outfit. In many of these cases it is the same as if the beekeeper quit using antibiotics all at once. Beekeepers can and do contain these outbreaks but it can be pretty costly since they must get rid of the infected comb. My conclusion is: Think infected of any used comb. Inspect colonies regularly for disease and destroy AFB when you find it and you will probably never have a major outbreak whether or not you use antibiotics. Why treat if you don't have a problem? If you don't know how to identify AFB you need to learn before you think about buying used combs. Always think about infection control when moving frames from one colony to another. Double that if you are moving combs from weak or dead hives to strong hives. Medication can if properly used significantly reduce your exposure if you buy used equipment but you risk spreading disease throughout your outfit if you are not careful. Resistant stock is out there but I am not sure it is as widespread as you seem to be thinking. Absence of disease in itself is not necessarily due to resistance - it could just as easily be due to lack of exposure to infectious spores. All colonies have some mechanisms to help limit the spread of AFB but some can easily handle truly enormous numbers of spores without becoming diseased. This has gotten rather long. Thanks again for bringing this up it is an interesting area that we all need to think about. I quit using TM a few years back without any problems but no used equipment and confident I can identify AFB if and when it shows up and know what I need to do. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:29:47 -0500 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Formic Pads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Cole wrote: > Does anyone have a source of pre-cut absorbant material suitable for short > term formic acid application. PH number or address appreciated. Disposable "shop towels" from nearly any of the chains of auto parts stores have been said to work well in this application. These are "super-thick paper-towels". I have only heard this from others, as I have yet to use formic acid myself. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:20:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: irradiating honey In-Reply-To: <200103220741.CAA03400@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Imported honey into South Africa is indeed required by law to be irradiated > to destroy any possible traces of AFB and EFB, two diseases we don't have > and can do without. I think a lot of people in North America are starting to wish that our authorities had been blessed with that much foresight as beekeepers look in their hives and find a new variant of AFB taking over. Our experts knew that resistant AFB was in South America, yet no effort was made to use simple existing technology to test incoming honey from the areas in question. Contaminated honey was welcomed throughout North America and some beekeepers even let their bees lick out empty drums. SAFB looks exactly like normal AFB, and it took a while -- and some analysis -- to recognise that something new was happening. I am sure the disease will be found in all honey importing countries now -- if they care to look. The ongoing hoof and mouth experience and the BSE situation are a lesson in how quickly indiscriminate international trade can spread an unusual local infections and mutant strains worldwide, although I suspect that we will eventually learn there is much more to the hoof and mouth story that we are currently being told. I also expect we will have a worldwide human pandemic one of these days and be powerless to stop it without compromising drastically on some of our libertarian and free trading ideals. Back to the topic: I wonder exactly how the irradiation takes place when honey does enter SA? I can see sending honey in small plastic retail packs down a radiation line, but cannot imagine drums undergoing the process due to size and the container material. Honey severely diminishes or stops entirely the electron beam radiation that is currently being used to clean up equipment contaminated with SAFB in Canada, and combs must be free of honey to be effectively sterilized. Honey offers only a little less resistance to the beam than steel. Perhaps longer duration or two-sided methods might work. I understand that there are some plants that can indeed get better penetration using cobalt radiation or other methods, but such plants are not available everywhere. The cost is also quite high, about $5 per super. What would the cost be for honey? Would it make the import impractical? Treatment must be 100.0000% effective or it is a waste of time and money. Radiation plants have quality control measures in place, but then again, human beings work there and they also use computers... allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- If you are sending someone some Styrofoam, what do you pack it in? -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 11:50:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: irradiating honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Allen wrote: The cost is also quite high, about $5 per super. What would the cost be for honey? Would it make the import impractical? The cost WOULD make the import impractical. The large packers (with their deep pockets) would lobby that such treatment was unneccessary and that they would check a sample every once in awhile and see if a problem exists. The policing of cource would be on the honor system and each packer would report back IF such a problem exists. SAFB is of casual concern to the packer. Losing the honey imports or increasing the cost of imports is. The only people concerned are Allen, Bob or other beekeepers. The old *song & dance* between the packer & the beekeeper. In the end the packer gets his cheap imported honey and the beekeeper gets his SAFB. Interesting thread but in my opinion irradiating honey simply to keep out SAFB will never happen in the U.S. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 16:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: irradiating honey In-Reply-To: <200103241852.NAA10079@listserv.albany.edu>; from BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM on Sat, Mar 24, 2001 at 11:50:49AM -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The cost WOULD make the import impractical. The large packers (with their > deep pockets) would lobby that such treatment was unneccessary and that they > would check a sample every once in awhile and see if a problem exists. The > policing of cource would be on the honor system and each packer would report > back IF such a problem exists. SAFB is of casual concern to the packer. > Losing the honey imports or increasing the cost of imports is. The only > people concerned are Allen, Bob or other beekeepers. The old *song & > dance* between the packer & the beekeeper. In the end the packer gets his > cheap imported honey and the beekeeper gets his SAFB. Interesting thread but > in my opinion irradiating honey simply to keep out SAFB will never happen in > the U.S. Since "libratarian" ideas were mentioned in terms of open trade, I would like to bring up the flip side of the coin. If packers did/are bringing in product that causes someone damage it may well be time for a lawsuit to cover the damages that have been caused. If it can be shown that packers are bringing in harmful bacteria along with the imported honey I am sure that the need to turn to government regulations can be reduced by attempting to recover the industries losses in civil court. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 16:17:58 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dupondu@AOL.COM Subject: Re: - creative honey packaging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use this system too in order to taste honeys. It works fairly good, for a liquid or even a viscous honey. Another crativ honey packaging : I saw a wooden honey pot in the site named www.beesness.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 15:12:36 -0800 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Lavett Subject: Re: Attendants and Retinue workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last season, I raised about 100 queens. When one of them started laying eggs, I would carry her inside my closed fist to an enclosed area with good lighting to be marked. With all queens except one, all I ever felt was legs touching my fingers, or sometimes a little headbutting trying to escape from one end of my fist or the other. The one exception, though, very definitely was biting my palm all the way in and all the way back to her nuc. The skin on my hand didn't appear to be broken; no blood was drawn, but the sensation was almost painful. The closest comparison might be to the bite of an earwig. James Kilty wrote: > > By the way, to change the subject completely, has anyone come across > bees that nip your fingers, perhaps as a precursor to stinging? Is this > tendency associated with grooming mites? One of my colleagues reports it > regularly and I am just starting to notice it. > -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:28:08 -0800 Reply-To: jslavett@worldnet.att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeffrey Lavett Subject: Re: Hive Paint Comments: To: Peter Borst MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: >I thought the suggestion of buying odd colored lots from the paint store (ata a discounted price) was great. Garage sales and yard sales often feature partially used paint cans. I currently have on hand about 20 gallons of various colors of latex paint purchased at an average price of $ .10 or .20 per gallon. Some of it was even free. I pour the paints into a five gallon bucket through a paint strainer to remove solids, then mix thoroughly with an electric drill. Can't say much for the resultant colors, usually some form of beige, but the price is attractive. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 00:05:21 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen stopped laying Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "JOEL F. MAGSAYSAY" wrote: >Nosema exhibits symptoms in workers first. They crawl on the ground in front >of entrances, sometimes climbing and falling off blades of grass. "K" wing >is a dead giveaway. I always believed that "k" wings were a symptom of Acarine (acarapis woodi), caused by the mites damaging the tracheae. Fouling the hive is I believe the main symptom of nosema. Nosema is normally caused by stress (often the fault of the beekeeper), and is often associated with nucs, and can be counteracted by Fumidil B. Is this correct? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:08:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Queen stopped laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom & All, You are correct Tom about the K wings. I have seen bees with K wings 20+ feet from the hive in hives with high infestations of tracheal mites. Wondering around like lost. One bee I examined had around 200 mites in the trachea. I have never heard of K wings associated with nosema but maybe Joel has. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:16:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave and Judy Subject: Re: Queen stopped laying MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computer Software Solutions Ltd wrote: > Fouling the hive is I believe the main symptom of nosema. Nosema is normally > caused by stress (often the fault of the beekeeper), and is often associated > with nucs, and can be counteracted by Fumidil B. > One of our local beekeepers had a bad case of Nosema in 2 out of 3 of his hives. Interesting, there was some evidence of dysentery, but not much. However, the bees crawling in the grass was his concern. My concern about using this as an indicator of Nosema may miss other problems, perhaps insecticide kills. When we went to check his hives with him we found that the symptom of 'losing the sting reflex' was the strongest symptom to lead us to determine Nosema. We were picking up the crawling bees, handling and examining them, without gloves, and not one of us received a sting. Luckily, this beekeeper followed our advice that "nothing that happens in your hives should ever be a surprise" and was quick to find the disease. He did not have Fumidil (another older beehaver had advised him that he need not treat with Fumidil because the bee suppliers always treat) so we gave him some of ours, he treated and both of the hives survived. This was the year with an extremely wet spring in Kentucky. The location of the bees was across the road from a local creek, in the bottoms. Even though it was new package bees, they did not get the Nosema until about a month later. We believe from the wetness of the location.. Judy in Kentucky, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 11:37:33 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wajih daour Subject: Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Beekeepers, I still need an answer to the question: Are queens breaded in starting = colony until sealed better than queens started in queenless colony and = finished in queen right colony ? Thanks. Wajih Daour ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 09:26:31 -0800 Reply-To: Ian_Farber@telus.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ian Farber Subject: Wanted: Beekeepers in Prague or Presov MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to locate an English speaking beekeeper in Prague or Presov that may be interested in meeting a Canadian beekeeper. Please reply off the bee-l to my return address. Thank you, Ian Farber ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 20:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: keastman Subject: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I purchased 3 instrumentally inseminated Russian queens from California in the middle of May 2000. They were introduced into very small nucs and allowed to build up on their own with no assistance. The Russian – White line / Italian cross was the meanest (not too bad, still able to work without gloves) of the 3 Russians and this may have been caused partly by a HIGH Varroa mite load which wasdiscovered at the fall treatment. These bees looked like normal yellow Italian bees and for me they produced like Italian bees I have had in the past. They love to walk on foundation, they barely drew out any have made enough stores to get through the winter. Report Card - C minus. Definitely not a breeder but maybe useful for drone stock. The Russian Blue line / Carniolian cross was the winner as far as production and comb building was concerned. 5+ deep drawn frames pulled off and 10 more deep frames drawn and filled which is their winter food. These bees were more gentile than the Italian cross and the color was a typical dark Carniolian. There was a mite load this fall but it looked to be about half of what was in the Italian cross colony. Report Card – B+ Good enough to use as a breeder next year. The 100% Russian Purple line / White line did not produce as much as the CN cross but quite a LOT better than the Italian cross. They were tied for gentleness with the CN cross but the thing that really impressed me was there were hardly any Varroa mites falling during the fall treatment with Apistan. This will be a breeder next year I feel. Report card - B+ I grafted twice from 2 different Russian queens. I had a lot of trouble with the first graft . Of the 18 very nice looking cells only 5 queens got mated and started laying. I had heard of all the mating problems but where I have primarily CN stock and dark drones I thought I would have fewer problems. The weather was good and grafts before and after were right in the 75 – 90% success range which I normally get. With the second graft I got 20 out of 23 laying. Hard to say what the problem was with the first graft. This winter has been quite hard and I have lost a good number of hives but all of the Russian stock looks very good. I have been quite impressed with what I have seen and will definitely be adding more of the Russian stock this year. They appear to be VERY thrifty with winter stores. Ken Eastman Monaca, PA. (just north of Pittsburgh) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:53:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ken & All, Thanks for sharing your observations. Because you used Apistan to keep your Russians alive the question is still. *Can they survive varroa without chemical treatments*. I have not talked to one beekeeper with Russian queens not using a chemical treatment. They all treat as Ken did because I suppose they don't want to risk a loss at the start. Lets pull a few off chemicals this fall and see what happens. Back when tracheal mites were doing the most damage I would ask beekeepers about their methods. Many would say they went to Buckfast bees and solved the problem. No more treatments I asked? No we still use menthol. How do you know they are resistant to tracheal mites if you still treat I asked? "We treat because we don't want to take a chance on losing hives was the answer." I am pleased Ken has had success with at least the start of the project. I hope the Russian line is our answer for the future but I need to see the proof. Hopefully this winter will tell the story. Are there beekeepers on Bee-L which overwintered the Russians without any chemical treatments?. Ok. Now like HIP says lets see if they will make the second winter. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:17:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines for Posting to BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Important: Please read carefully, then check out the info in this post. ----- BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with rules and guidelines. Anyone and everyone with interest in bees is welcome to join. Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Every post that makes the list goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. In a sense, we are writing a book together. We would like to point out to new members (and remind long-time members) that all our rules, including the sign-on messages as well as access to our FAQ can be found at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L Please visit the above link periodically to review our guidelines and before posting to the list. You will also find info on what might have happened if you posted and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:48:46 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Queen stopped laying In-Reply-To: <200103250642.BAA24892@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I would suspect either Nosema or dysentery. > Fouling the hive is I believe the main symptom of nosema. > "K" wing is a dead giveaway. This is where the front and > hind wings (both sides or either) get unhooked. > I have never heard of K wings associated with nosema > The bees crawling in the grass was his concern...When we > went to check his hives with him we found that the symptom of > 'losing the sting reflex' was the strongest symptom to lead us to > determine Nosema. I hope that interested members will consult their copy of 'The Hive and the Honey Bee' and look up this topic starting on page 1097. Particularly, please consult 'Diagnosis' on page 1100. I will not quote the entire passage here. That is not the purpose of this list. I assume that all members of this list for 'Informed discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology' -- at minimum -- have a recent copy of THATHB in their possession, and consult it regularly before posting. The discussion in THATHB more than answers the questions about detection and diagnosis of nosema and will also make it obvious which of the above statements are consistent with proven fact and worthy of this list and which are uninformed guesses or misunderstandings. You may be surprised. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 08:50:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic Pads In-Reply-To: <200103221135.GAA06078@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Does anyone have a source of pre-cut absorbent material suitable for short > > term formic acid application. The is an illustrated discussion of this on October 12th, 2000 at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ A more direct link is http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/2000/Diary101000.htm, but the latter is an isolated page with no links elsewhere. The diary was one year old on March the 3rd and now has over 20,000 recorded hits. My original purpose for the diary was to be able to go back a year later and see what is coming up. That, I figured, would be very useful for spotting the mistakes I make over and over. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 12:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Queens In-Reply-To: <200103251506.KAA00891@listserv.albany.edu>; from honey@INDEX.COM.JO on Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:37:33AM +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 11:37:33AM +0200, wajih daour wrote: > Dear Beekeepers, > I still need an answer to the question: Are queens breaded in starting = > colony until sealed better than queens started in queenless colony and = > finished in queen right colony ? I am not sure there is an easy way to answer that question. There have been a number of threads (check the archives) on what may or may not produce a superior queen. The only thing I can think of in the conditions you describe is that there may be more nurse bees in a queen-right colony. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 04:36:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Russian Queens In-Reply-To: <200103260824.DAA23508@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Because you used Apistan to keep your Russians alive the question > is still. *Can they survive varroa without chemical treatments*. AFAIK, the answer is, "No". Not reliably anyhow. My understanding is that the Russian queens in the hands of beekeepers are likely not to be of pure Russian origin, and even if they were, survival in good condition is not a certainty. > Lets pull a few off chemicals this fall and see what happens. I think we all know what would happen. Even if they were pure Russian, would it not be prudent to do a mite drop or alcohol wash measurement on a hive before deciding not to treat it? After all, the test is cheap and easy compared to replacing the bees. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 05:42:49 -0500 Reply-To: Charles Harper Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Harper Subject: Re: Russian Queens In-Reply-To: <200103260824.DAA23511@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are there beekeepers on >Bee-L which overwintered the Russians without any chemical treatments?. Yes I have 24 that recived no chemical treatments at all and 24 more that recived one formicacid treatment, only 6 have expired due to various reasions lids blew off of 4 of them they drouned from rain. Harper's Honey Farm Charles Harper Carencro LA 1000+ Hives ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 22:00:57 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: eager consumer query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I receive emails from people who find our web page interesting and I very much enjoy the international contacts. One query I have received recently from a United States address is whether I can forward unheated and unfiltered honey to this person. I have responded, assuring this eager honey consumer that she does not need to go to the lengths of having honey forwarded from Australia to obtain the genuine article, and that there are a number of beekeepers in the United States who will be able to supply her requirements. I trust there will be a United States beekeeper that can restore her faith in the local product. Would any beekeeper able to supply unheated, unfiltered honey please contact: Irina Feldman 25477 Skye Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48336 irulichka@yahoo.com I understand she is purchasing on behalf of a group of people. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Russian Queens Comments: To: Charles Harper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob wrote: Are there beekeepers on Bee-L which overwintered the Russians without any chemical treatments?. Mr. Harper wrote: Yes I have 24 that recived no chemical treatments at all and 24 more that recived one formicacid treatment, only 6 have expired due to various reasions lids blew off of 4 of them they drouned from rain. Hello Charles & All, These are the kind of tests I like to see 24 treated one way and 24 treated another way. By next spring we should get a idea of the worth of the Russian queens which are untreated at Harper's Honey Farm. I wish you luck with the Russian's Charles and thanks for sharing with the list. Two years is the milestone we are looking for Charles. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:59:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Richtmeyer Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob I have not try Russian bees But I went with 50 screen bottom boards My bees are carniolans & Italian I raise my my own queens And have across of Italians &conns I have not use no Chemical or menthal for one year to see if they would live with out Tretments lost one this year will not tret this year to see how they make out George Richtmeyer George's apiary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 08:18:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: George Richtmeyer To: Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 7:59 AM Subject: Re: Russian Queens Hello George & All, George wrote: I have not try Russian bees But I went with 50 screen bottom boards My bees are carniolans & Italian I raise my my own queens And have across of Italians &conns At least we know the screens help with varroa. Maybe better in certain parts of the U.S. than *Apistan* & *Apicure* did from the results I am hearing. I have not use no Chemical or menthal for one year to see if they would live with out Tretments lost one this year will not tret this year to see how they make out I assume you are saying you didn't treat last spring (2000) and last fall (2000) and you have got 49 hives left coming out of the winter 2000-2001. You did better than I did George and I am using treatments. Your bees are doing better than the Russian queens. What kind of natural mite load have they got and how big are the clusters. A most unusual story coming from George's Apiary. Many are reporting 50-70% losses in our area this year. With all due respect to George I hope George isn't like the beekeeper which wanted to sell me his bees which he hadn't looked at in awhile. We walked out to check his hives and ALL were dead. The beekeeper was surprised to say the least. He had never heard of varroa or tracheal mites. I had driven quite a ways to look and was disappointed myself. Homer was up in his 80's at the time. I spent a couple hours telling Homer about mites and Homer gave me a couple of his beekeeping secrets from a lifetime of keeping bees. I NEVER miss a chance to talk to a older beekeeper. Homer never wanted to get bees again even though his family offered to get him a couple hives. I offered Homer a start also but he refused. Homer said the dead hives were a sign it was time for him to quit beekeeping. Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 15:34:04 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Richtmeyer Subject: Re: Russian Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I run 400 hives of bees. I lost 12 because they starved to death and 6 hives to the river because of the rain. I know what varroal mites are and was one of the first in the area to know what they were in87. I spray my bees when I work them with peppermint spirits and suger water.The bees are ready to split now as I start feeding in Feb. If the weather would permit. We sell nukes of bees every spring and they have to be in good condition. Our nukes are guaranteed to produce the first year if conditions are right. Treating of bees is either check-mite or apistan.Tracheal mites are a roll of shop towels soaked in a quart of canola oil and 1oz. of peppermint spirits. George ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Don's method On Wed, 3 May 2000 13:16:43 -0500, Blane White, MN Dept of Agriculture, blane.white@state.mn.us wrote: >I have a couple of comments on Don's method. It is actually a > method developed not by Don but by researchers at USDA. By > dissolving the menthol in vegetable oil the surface area is > greatly increased thereby greatly increasing the evaporation > rate in cooler weather. Yes it does work if done properly > and yes it is legal since the applicator is using less that > the menthol label calls for ( you can always use less than > label rates legally, never more than label rates On Mon, 26 Mar 2001 14:07:23 -0700, George Richtmeyer [GRichtmeye@AOL.COM] wrote: > Tracheal mites are a roll of shop towels soaked in a quart > of canola oil and 1oz. of peppermint spirits. I've been impressed by the anecdotes I've heard about the blue shop towel method. I did a little trial of making up the treatment last Saturday (pictures at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/diary/ for March 24th) and we intend to use it this spring, even though we did treat last fall with 3 pads of formic. (Yup we still have some bees, but everything is for sale - See http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Sale/). In reading about the blue shop towel treatment, I notice that some people decrease the amount of menthol in the dose from the 50/50 oil-to-menthol ratio that is mentioned in the original article cited earlier here on BEE-L by bob (Feb 97 ABJ). In the second quote above, the writer has reduced the menthol to 1 part menthol in about 28 parts of oil if I calculated correctly, and is the lowest dose I've heard so far. Menthol spirits are mentioned, not crystals, so am I correct in therefore assuming an even lower menthol level? I've also noticed that some people use canola oil and others use vegetable shortening. The ABJ article speaks of 'two pounds of canola oil' and two pounds of crystals. Now liquid oil is usually sold by liquid measure (ounces, ml, cups, litres, quarts, etc.), not pounds, and and the solid form known hereabouts as shortening *is* sold by pounds, so the meaning is not entirely clear. The same word may have different meanings in differernt localities, so I'm hoping someone(s) can set us straight about this -- if it matters. My conclusion from reading is that the dose in the ABJ article is a bit on the high side. When we made the sample up, I cut the roll into three, since I was afraid that I might kill some brood as mentioned in the same article if a half sheet is used. I've also wondered if the second dose is necessary. Has anyone actually measured before and after and determined the optimal dose, or has everyone just used his or her own version of the treatment and not confirmed the efficacy or necessary doses by measurement? And, if the USDA did develop the treatment, is it written up somewhere? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Onward through the fog. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:50:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Don's method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, I believe it is written up by the USDA but not sure the location. What Blane is saying is you can always use less then label but not more than label. I use approved food grade menthol. George is using a essential oil. The peppermint spirits might work but are not approved method. I don't know the rules for Canada. I use the 1 lb.(by weight) menthol to canola oil and haven't had dead brood. I did get dead brood and bees driven from the hives with the 2 lb. mix from the article. I do not measure the amount of canola and only top off the 3 lb. coffee can. I do everything exactly like the 1 lb. formula presented in the ABJ article. In your case making a larger batch you might have to guess at the amount of canola. I have always used the second dose. My thoughts were to keep the treatment on as long as menthol would normally be on the hive. I have never treated only once and then checked. Maybe I should have. I find many of the problems associated with various treatments we use are not successful because we do not follow instructions and timing. Resistance to Terramycin could have developed because beekeepers were not appling properly. Dose one week. Dose ten days later. Timming is very important in using chemicals or antibiotics. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 07:54:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Don's method Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Allen, As far as wheather to use liquid or solid vegetable oil - it really doesn't seem to matter. Dr Wilson at USDA used solid vegetable shortening while most beekeepers here now use liquid vegetable oil. As long as it is all vegetable oil is really doesn't seem to matter. Both will increase the surface area for the menthol to evaporate from greatly thereby greatly increasing the rate of evaporation. Not sure on your dose question. Have not heard of any testing in that area. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:12:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Stevens Subject: The death of Dick Bonney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Bonney who taught beekeeping at the University of Massachusetts and wrote two popular beekeeping books died last night. He was a humble man who loved his bees, a great teacher and a true gentle-man. I believe his books will become classics one day. Those who knew him personally feel very privileged to have had the opportunity. May he rest in what was so sorely missing in his beloved Berkshires, a field of sweet clover. Bob Stevens ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: English tragedy - (from grumpy7@email.msn.com) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by grumpy7@EMAIL.MSN.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to clean up formatting. From: "grumpy7" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Fw: English tragedy Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:08:12 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- From: And we beekeepers think we have problems. The letter below should give us a close-up view of what is going on in England. It is a long missive, but worth reading. Walter Weller From: The Revd Jeff & The Revd Rosie Radcliffe, The Rectory, Lilac House, Lowther Newtown, Cumbria. CA10 2HH, U.K. FOOT AND MOUTH, CUMBRIA, March, 2001 It's hard to describe what it's actually like living here in this group of country villages on the eastern edge of the Lake District at this point in time. The media coverage doesn't give a picture of the "siege mentality" which has overtaken us, the news reports seem almost "sanitised" and are careful to play down the situation. We understand that it may be important to do so, but in this place the reality is very different. We are surrounded by a cluster of confirmed cases, the latest within a mile. The funeral pyre at Tirril, 4 miles away, has been burning now for over a week, the column of smoke a constant reminder of the crisis. The smell is indescribable - not just burning flesh, but rotten burning flesh and the creosote which is used to keep the fires going. There are thousands and thousands of carcasses to be destroyed and the burning can't keep up with it >all, so a convoy of covered lorries containing some carcasses quietly slipped south a few days ago, on their way to a rendering plant. Everywhere you go, and you do try not to go anywhere unless you must, there is straw across roads and gateways, large signs saying Do Not Enter, roadblocks even. The smell of anti-viral disinfectant is pervasive. No vehicle of any kind can now come onto the Lowther Estate without disinfectant being sprayed up into the wheel arches. There is no-one about, nothing moves, everyone stays at home except to visit the supermarket and do the school run. The pubs are empty and local businesses which rely on tourism are facing a bleak future. We ran out of wood for the fire but there's no more to be had anywhere because no-one can get on the land to collect fallen trees, so for now we survive with a Calor gas heater. Nothing happens - every meeting is cancelled, many churches and some schools are closed because of exclusion zones. As Rector of a group of rural parishes, Jeff spends nearly all his time on the phone to desperate local farmers and their families - either locked in their homes because they've already got the virus, or desperately pulling up the drawbridge and living in constant fear that they will be next. A neighbouring vicar was called in by a distraught farming family to bless their land and stock, but not before his wellies had been thoroughly disinfected. The MAFF vet who was called to our latest case even burned the biro he had used to fill in the form confirming the outbreak. Humans can incubate the disease and breathe it out for 5 days, so we try to go nowhere, do nothing. Behind us the lambing sheds of the Home Farm should be full of hundreds of ewes about to give birth, but the sheep are all out in the fields and can't be brought in because of the movement restrictions within the exclusion zone. The grass in the fields is all but gone and if the sheep aren't slaughtered because of the virus they may die anyway of starvation; the land will take months to recover. The Government is now considering the slaughter of half a million pregnant ewes who cannot safely he brought in for lambing. We pray that it will not come to that. Army marksmen have now been called in to destroy as necessary sheep which roam free on the fells - many thousands of them. They may also have to cull the deer which range wild across the whole area. Having a split hoof they, too, are vulnerable to this infection and cross land boundaries without fear or favour. One infected deer could turn an outbreak into an epidemic. Unthinking tourists make us all so angry. Two women with dogs loose were stopped trying to climb the stile in front of us into the park farmland... where there were sheep! When the notices about the closure of footpaths were pointed out they insisted that they had a legal "right to roam". You still see a few tourists driving about in four wheel drives, and you want to tell them to go home, although local businesses need whatever revenue they might bring in. The responsible ramblers have stayed away The Government insists the situation is under control but it feels like a State of Emergency, in our small corner of the world at least. Cumbria contains one quarter of all the cases to date, mainly in the Penrith area. We almost wish they would call the Army in because they might exercise some control over those few people who blatantly flout the disease precaution guidelines. Today we've heard of one farmer who loaded up his (obviously diseased) sheep and took them to the local abattoir, under the limited licence to transport. He must have known they were infected, but he took them through local farmland to reach his destination, with the result that all the 1,000 sheep at the slaughterhouse, including his own, must now be killed and the carcasses destroyed. The abattoir is fundamentally out of business and farms on his route are at great risk. If you're feeling heartily sick of all the news coverage about the outbreak then think again. We're desperate for information and advice on what to do, or not do, and the TV and radio provide what little there is. NFU and MAFF briefings on the internet help to complete the picture. The local radio station hourly gives out helpline numbers for desperate farmers. It can only be a matter of time before the first suicide is recorded. Those farm families on which the dread news of a confirmed outbreak has fallen must sit tight in their houses while their life's work is destroyed. Even when the animals are all disposed of, the land and all buildings must be thoroughly disinfected, and they will not be allowed to re-stock for up to six months, even if they have the heart and the resources to do so. Pray for the farmers and the country people who are living with this daily- the fear is palpable. Many country people will have no jobs because both farming and tourism are shuddering to a halt. Be responsible about your movements - we've called off a trip to see our daughter in Leicester because we couldn't live with ourselves if we transported the infection. By agreement, for the foreseeable future Rosie shall not be traveling the 10 miles to her job as Assistant Priest in a parish a few miles away, but will do what she can on the home front. Rosie & Jeff. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Don's method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "W. Allen Dick" wrote: > And, if the USDA did develop the treatment, is it written up somewhere? Jim Amrine, at West Virginia University. This is his writeup, in part. The last I saw, he was testing the amounts and also the effect on Varroa. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME 1): Measure and mix the following: Place two standard packs of menthol crystals (3.4 oz. or 100 grams) in an 8-oz. (118.3 cc) measuring cup, and then add canola oil to fill. Microwave for 4 minutes at 50% power. Check to see that all crystals dissolved—if not, microwave for an additional minute at 50% power. Must be used while warm otherwise crystals will reform. 2): Add to paper towels: Remove 30 paper towels from one roll; fold in half and stack. Put stack of paper towels into a large zip-lock bag and add 1 cup of warm menthol-canola. Zip the bag shut then squeeze the towels in the bag until all towels are evenly saturated. If one end of towels is somewhat dry, turn the bag sideways putting dry end down—in about 10 minutes, all will be evenly saturated. Thus, one cup of menthol-canola mix will treat 30 paper towels—using 2 towels per colony, this will treat 15 colonies. Towels can be stored at room temperature indefinitely if the bag is zipped closed. 3): Add to colonies: Do not add to colonies while a honey flow is on. Place one paper towel over the top bars of each brood chamber. Best time to treat is September. (Tracheal mites are usually not a problem from May to September, so no menthol needs to be used until the time that mites begin to build up in late August or September). Colonies can be treated anytime during the winter when temperatures rise above about 45 F. We recommend this treatment whenever tracheal mites are found; additional treatments can be made in December, January and February. The bees will chew up the paper towels and discard them at the entrance in 3-4 days (or longer in winter). This mix caused no harm to our bees but definitely reduced or eliminated the tracheal mites. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 14:26:47 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: FW: English tragedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, wrote: >And we beekeepers think we have problems. >The letter below should give us a close-up view of what is going on in >England. It's worth also mentioning that the current foot-and-mouth outbreak in the UK is beginning to have a serious effect on beekeepers. Foot-and-mouth disease (FMD) is so infectious that there are tight controls on movements onto agricultural land throughout the UK. Such restrictions are most severe in areas where foot-and-mouth has been confirmed, but farmers everywhere are understandably extremely unwilling to allow any visitors onto their land for fear of introducing FMD infection. Very many beekeepers in the UK have their bees on agricultural land, and due to the intermixed nature of the British Countryside, livestock are generally not far away. So as Spring approaches, many beekeepers are finding that it is impossible to get access to their apiaries to give their bees the attention they need. The problem at present is that Spring is running about a month late, and conditions are too cold and wet for bees to forage properly, so some colonies are beginning to be running out of food and are in need of feeding. However, once the good weather arrives, colonies are going to be in desperate need of supers, and management to control swarming. It's a particular problem for large-scale beekeepers who will be wishing to move colonies on economically important pollination contracts during the next few weeks. I have recently spoken to a number of beekeepers who have already accepted that they are unlikely to be able to able to visit their bees at all until the FMD outbreak is controlled. However, current epidemiological modelling suggests that this will take several months at least. By which time the honey flow will probably be over. For Bee Inspectors it's a real problem too because we very soon need to start visiting apiaries to carry out our disease control and advisory work. However, we just won't be able to go to some places at all, and elsewhere will have follow the most stringent disinfection procedures to avoid any risk of spreading FMD infection. Several Bee Inspectors have been seconded to help with controlling the outbreak in the worst affected areas, and more may follow as the outbreak continues. For those who want further information on the UK foot-and-mouth outbreak, the MAFF website at http://www.maff.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/fmd/default.htm is a good place to start. James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector Central Science Laboratory National Bee Unit Tel/fax: +44 (0)20 8571 6450 Mobile: 07719 924 418 E-mail: j.morton@csl.gov.uk Web: http://www.csl.gov.uk ___________________________________________________________________________ Disclaimer The information contained in this message may include privileged, proprietary or confidential information. Please treat it with the same respect that you would expect for your own information. If you have received it in error, we apologise, and ask that you contact the CSL sender immediately and erase it from your computer. Thank you for your co-operation. Further information on confidentiality of our communications, can be found at http://www.csl.gov.uk/email.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 06:38:03 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: news on imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I made a presentation to the Pesticide Advisory Committee of Prince Edward Island regarding the use of imidacloprid on potato fields here and it gathered a lot of media coverage. It was the first story on our local news on TV, and both radio stations mentioned it throughout the day in their newscasts. I had produced a graph which showed use and accumulation on PEI and held it up under my head throughout the whole news interview after my presentation, but it was NOT shown on TV because the lawyers at CBC (our national public television station) head office did not stand up to the lawyers from the Bayer company. Our newspaper has said that it will publish the graph. I will ask Allen if he might put it on his wonderful imidacloprid website. I had already been in touch with the PMRA (the pesticide registration agency in Canada) but I guess that after the news coverage that the story got here when reporters contacted them they said that they have requested Bayer to produce all the results of the French testing and the results of the Cynthia Scott-Dupree study without delay and they will review the use of this insecticide on potatoes (they are already considering its use on canola). The following is the text of my presentation. It is long, but perhaps in view of the fact that this subject has received considerable attention on this list and the fact that this product is now one of the most-used insecticides in the world the moderators might allow it to be posted. Submission to the Pesticide Advisory Committee >From Stan Sandler, beekeeper Date: March 27, 2001 Concerning: Use of Imidacloprid (Admire) on PEI Imidacloprid was first given a temporary registration for use on potatoes in 1995 and its use in PEI has increased dramatically since then until today it is the probably the main insecticide used on potatoes. Recently, partly as a result of beekeeper experience in France in particular, and Europe generally, and partly because of new techniques to measure residues and detect effects, and partly due to questions about the quality of the research proving imidacloprid safe, concerns have been surfacing about the danger to the environment and to both natural and managed pollinators from this insecticide. Since December of 1998 there was a moratorium put on the use of imidacloprid in three provinces of France, and four teams of independent government scientists were asked to study the toxicity of imidacloprid to honeybees and its ability to manifest itself in succeeding crop years. That study cost many millions of Francs and is about the only good independent research that is available on the subject. I strongly urge this committee to contact the "Commission des Toxiques" in France and get copies of the findings of these studies and get them translated so our Minister of Agriculture can use that information. References to their findings, and to the original papers are included in the "Composite Document of Present Position Relating to Gaucho / Sunflower and Bees", by three national beekeeper organizations in France. Imidacloprid is marketed by the Bayer company as "Gaucho" in France, for sunflowers, as Admire 240 F here on PEI for potatoes. This paper which was presented to the French Minister of Agriculture is included in this submission as Appendix 1. After that document was presented the Bayer company brought forward some additional data, and the three beekeeper organizations responded. That response is included as Appendix 2. It is very informative, but unfortuneately I do not have it translated yet. Some of this committee's members may be bilingual. The moratorium on imidacloprid use on sunflowers has now been extended to the whole country. The Advice to the Minister of Agriculture by the Commission des Toxiques is included as Appendix 3. I would draw this committee's attention to the fact that all the teams of independent French scientists found that imidacloprid was toxic to honeybees in extremely tiny concentrations, down to single digit parts per billion (ppb). In fact the data from the manufacturer has been revised downward in just over two years so that they no longer claim that the NOEC (no observed effects concentration) is 5000 ppb, which is what they claimed at the time this insecticide was registered in Canada for potatoes, but now say it is 4 ppb. (data presented to the Commission des Toxiques on 16/12/1998) or 20 ppb (recent paper by Bayer researchers Schmuck, et.al, included as Appendix 4). In this area (the Atlantic Provinces) there has been little study of imidacloprid. To be exact there has been one study by Environment Canada and Agriculture Canada to determine the potential for water-borne transport from treated fields. This study was called "Field and Test Plot Studies of Disperal of Imidacloprid (Admire) in NB and PEI (1995)". It is included in this submission as Appendix 5.. I would draw the committee's attention to this quote from page 7 of that study: "Imidacloprid is persistent in soil (DT50 = 2 years) with a high potential for carryover and buildup of chemical residues (Mulye 1996a, Mulye 1996b)". note: DT50 is decay time for 50% of material. Couple that with the report's conclusion that imidacloprid shows significant translocation to other locations by water during the growing season when applied foliarly, and after the growing season when applied in furrow, and you have the reasons why this insecticide is so dangerous to bees. Bees do not visit potato flowers for either nectar or pollen. But imidacloprid is washing into the ditches and being expressed in the nectar and pollen of the goldenrod and clover there. It is also carrying over and being expressed in the crops and weeds in the years following potatoes. That is quite well known by the company. If you look at the label you will see that they do not recommend treatments of the same field in successive years for just that reason. How much is being carried over? We have no idea, because noone has done any testing. But if you look at the data from the French teams quoted in Appendix 1 you will see that when they looked in France they found concentrations significant to bees in succeeding crop years. And consider this fact: Admire can be put on potatoes, in furrow application, at 1.3 l/ha. But it can also be applied at a low dose of 0.85 l/ha. Now if you put it on at 1.3 l/ha and it has a half life of one year, then the next year the soil concentration is going to be up to 0.65 l/ha which is 75% as much as the low dose application. If the low dose application is sufficient to render the potato plants toxic to insects don't you think that 75% of the low dose might certainly be sufficient to render the clover and other plants growing the following year toxic to bees? Now I would like you to refer to data from the French team studying the persistence of imidacloprid (the Bonmatin team) which I have included as Appendix 6. There were 68 soil samples, only ten of which were from the year of treatment, the others were from one or two years previous. In 91% of the samples imadcloprid was detectable and it reached levels between 1 and 10 ppb. in almost half the samples. That study also showed that not only was imidacloprid present in the soil, but it was absorbed into the maize, sunflower, wheat and rape crops growing in those later years. And if you look at the graph on the last page of that appendix you will see that not only was imidacloprid present in those crops, but it got concentrated in them by the increased metabolic activity at the time of flowering and showed a increase of near five times in the flower head. But in PEI the situation is potentially far worse! On sunflowers imidacloprid is used as a seed dressing and the loading to the soil is at a rate of 52 grams of active ingredient per hectare. (0.7 mg active ingredient per seed and 75,000 seeds per hectare) This is Bayer's data from the Schmuck paper. The maximum in furrow application rate of Admire on potatoes is over 350 grams of active ingredient per hectare or SEVEN TIMES THAT AMOUNT! (1.3 litres per hectare with active ingredient 240 g/l) The French scientists found imidacloprid residues in crops growing in successive years, so I think that we can assume that there is a high likelihood that we will find even higher rates here, given that the application rate is seven times higher, potato soils have even longer half life values, and our winters are colder with more snow cover (which also extends the half life). Moreover, if you look at the toxicity to bee data from the abstract of the Bonmatin report (Appendix 7) you will see that they conclude that vital functions of bees are affected by sub-lethal doses of imidacloprid in the range from 1 to 20 ppb. The graph (also in that appendix) comparing feedings on comtaminated and uncomtaminated syrup shows clear response at 3 ppb. Other data which you can find in Appendix 2 shows toxicity of the olefin metabolite of imidacloprid to honeybees at only 0.75 ppb! Now, some of you may be thinking: well in the most common PEI rotation, it is usually grain that follows potatoes and the clover in hay doesn't usually flower until the third year. But remember, that clover is usually underseeded with the grain in the second year. It sprouts and grows and absorbs toxic imidacloprid that is still in the ground in the second year. Usually it won't flower until the third year, but it was certainly capable of taking up toxins in year two. Moreover, occasionally clover will flower in the seeding year, if the grain is harvested early enough, or if there is a blowdown in the field, or a miss in the grain drill. I recently asked a friend who grows a lot of potatoes what he used for colorado beetle control before admire. He said "Furadan, thiodan, velmar, sevin, ripcord... We used them all. This stuff does a real good job of killing beetles". I can sympathize with my friend. Who would want to go back to using those organophosphates that are more toxic to people and have to be sprayed repetitively? And they are all highly toxic to bees as well. But for the bees they have one huge advantage: They get sprayed on potatoes, which bees do not visit, and then they quickly break down. Unless there is significant drift onto adjacent hay and pasture bees are unaffected. The spraying is usually done before goldenrod in the ditches flowers. By contrast, imidacloprid is a ticking time bomb. Those other insecticides also are very apparent to the beekeeper when hives are affected by drift. The forager bees often die on or in front of the hive entrance and it is apparent what has happened. Imidacloprid is more insidious. At low concentrations it does not necessarily kill the foragers. But it disorients them and alters their behaviour. Many lose their way and don't return or return but cannot dance or otherwise function as foragers. The young bees and brood starve. PEI beekeepers lost 20% of our hives last year IN THE SUMMER. That is a remarkably high number. Usually we make increase during the summer; have losses in the winter. The winter yards I have checked so far show 35% mortality, and enough severely weakened hives that I believe final winter mortality will probably be 50%. The snow was not the killer. I know that in my hives it was the poor condition in which they entered the winter that was the killer ( poor stores and insufficient bees to take down feed and form a large enough winter cluster). And I am pointing the finger at imidacloprid as the cause of their poor condition. If honeybee colonies are being killed by this insecticide I think that is highly likely that bumblebees and solitary bees which forage on the same plants are also being killed. Honeybees and wild pollinators pollinate most of the fruit and many of the vegetables on this island: blueberries, apples, raspberries, strawberries, pumpkins, cucumbers, tomatoes, peas and so on. Neither your committee, Agriculture Canada, Environment Canada, the PMRA, or the provincial department of Agriculture has done any testing as to how much imidacloprid is present in the environment and being expressed in the wild and managed flowers that these pollinators visit. But the beekeepers of PEI have been doing a form of testing. We had about 2000 beehives on this island last year monitoring the environment in many locations. I myself had 50 apiaries all over Kings and Eastern Queens Counties. That works out to be about 100 million bees on PEI out there testing the quality of nectar and pollen. About half of those beehives are now dead. We cannot prove that imidacloprid is what has been killing our hives and causing our bees to do so poorly, but we can say that it certainly seems to us to be the culprit, and our experience with it is very similar to the losses and symptoms it caused in France. It is not up to beekeepers to prove that imidacloprid killed our hives. We can't do it. The bees that died or got lost did not come back to the hives. The hives died from lack of foragers and starvation. But this committee advises the minister of agriculture who has duty to the people of this provinces and to other agricultural sectors, like the bee and blueberry sectors, not to allow the use of a chemical which has not been proven to be harmless to us. There is not a single INDEPENDENT study that will show that this chemical either goes away or stops killing. The Bayer company has two studies that it will hold up as exploring the toxicity of imidacloprid and bees, but remember, other bee researchers in France and in Canada have questioned the findings of those studies. The company paid big bucks for those studies. The company made half a billion Eurodollars last years selling imidacloprid. The minister is well aware of the importance and the shortage of pollinators on PEI, because he has been petitioned by the Blueberry Association to open the border to the movement of hives from Nova Scotia as a consequence of the shortage here. Letting hives in will not be a solution if those hives also get sick and die or do poorly as a result of the use of this insecticide. The blueberry industry has a list of growers requesting beehives that totals about 3,400 beehives. I doubt if there are more than 1000 beehives left on PEI this spring. And the beekeepers are hardly ordering any packages of bees for replacements. Do you blame us for not wanting to invest in bees if they are going to get poisoned? I ask this committee to recommend to the Minister that there be a moratorium put on the use of imidacloprid on PEI for year 2001 while the Department of Agriculture samples crops growing in soils that were treated in year 2000 and determines the levels that are present in those crops and weeds, and the levels that are present in nectar and pollen and honey. We are very fortunate to have the technology right on this island. The Atlantic Veterinary College has the equipment to detect imidacloprid at 0.4 parts per billion which is finer detection that the Bayer company usually uses. Even if we spread no new imidacloprid this year we will have 6.700 kg of active ingredient going into the environment as an accumulated load from previous years. We have no idea how this is affecting the insect fauna of this island, because noone except beekeepers monitors "non target species" closely. Insects are not just pests. They pollinate many of our foods, break down material in the soil, and are food for many other animals. Imidacloprid is also highly toxic to earthworms. I am putting a good deal of material in front of this committee for examination and suggesting that this committee could obtain even more original documents and papers from France for the minister. But there is one graph that I have made that I would like to draw your attention to. It is so dramatic that I would like to see it on TV, in our newspapers and discussed on the radio and in the legislature. The facts and the calculations that I have used to create the graph are simple and do not require testing to validate. It is included in this submission as Appendix 8, "Imidacloprid Use and Accumulation on PEI".. Let us look first at the data used to create the graph: IMIDACLOPRID USE AND ACCUMULATION ON PEI (KILGRAMS OF ACTIVE INGREDIENT) YEAR 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 amount 504 522 1324 5930 10,000+ used in year We have good exact data for four years on the amount of imidacloprid used in this province. We do not have the figures yet for 2000, but I am fairly confident that for 2000 we will see imidacloprid has moved into Group B (sales of active ingredient between 10,000 and 50,000 kg). Confirmation of that should be available very soon. I phoned two agrichemical dealers in PEI and one looked up the sales figures and told me that sales of imidacloprid had quadrupled in 2000 from the 1999 level, and the other said that although their increase was not so dramatic, sales had probably more than doubled. Then I figured the cumulative amount going in to the environment at the start of the next season: YEAR 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 cumulative 0 252 388 856 3,393 6,696 amount in PEI envir. at start of the year I arrived at those figures by using the half life value of one year for imidacloprid and applying that value to the amount of imidacloprid in the environment at the start of the previous season. For a discussion of the half life of imidacloprid please see page 4 of Appendix 9, a document on imidacloprid by the National Pesticide Telecommunication Network. The US Environmental Protection Agency considers the half life of imidacloprid to be one year. Our Pest Management Regulatory Agency in Canada put out a document on August 15, 1997 on Admire called Regulatory Note R97-01 which I have included as Appendix 10. In that document it states on page 2 that terrestrial field dissipation studies indicate that the half life of imidacloprid in Canada in soil planted with potatoes ranged from 266 to 457 days, so the one year half life figure I have used should not be controversial. So, to visualize what the graph is showing, you take the use of admire in one year (the blue bar) and add it to the accumulated load from the year before (the brown bar). Then you divide the sum by half since half of that degrades during the year. The result is the accumulated load for the next year (the brown bar). From this anyone can clearly see that using such a persistent toxin is madness. Even if the people of this province see this graph and raise their voices to demand that its use be stopped, and the Minister hears them and acts quickly, we will still be loading the environment with over 6,700 kg of active material this year and over 3,350 kg. the next. Our pollinators and other beneficial insects will continue to die. And if we don't stop now the brown bar keeps getting closer to the blue bar and the situation keeps getting far, far worse. We will have more toxins expressing themselves in the environment this year just from accumulated load than from all the material we spread in 1999. That is several tons of material that ALL researchers, even the Bayer company ones, have shown to be toxic to essential pollinating insects in unbelievably tiny amounts; amounts far smaller than what was previously thought and presented by the company when the material was registered. And that material will be active in plants growing in fields that are no longer in potatoes, killing insects it was never intended for. There are a few factors that I have not included in the graph. They are minor, but I should deal with them now, because potato growers have invested a lot of money in specialized equipment to make in furrow applications of Admire, it works well on potato beetles, and they are not going to be pleased if it is deregistered and will be looking for flaws in a graph that is so simple that almost everyone can understand why we can't keep spreading this. First, some growers will say that they do not use the high in furrow application rate of Admire. This is really of little consequence. At the low rate they are still spreading four times the rate that is applied to sunflowers with demonstrated residual effects to bees in successive crop years. The graph does not even look at rate. It is simply concerned with the amount of the toxin that is in the environment. Some imidacloprid does leave the environment in the potatoes that are harvested. Let us say that 50,000 kg of potatoes are taken from a hectare of treated field. If those potatoes all had the maximum rate of imidacloprid residue that is allowed in Canada (Appendix 11) on potatoes, 300 parts per billion, that would still only remove 15 grams of active material from a field dose that ranged between 200 grams and 350 grams. And it is most likely, and I know all potato farmers will agree, that the residue in potatoes is far less than the allowable limit, and so much less than this is leaving in that manner. The other parts of the potato plant return to the soil. Some toxin does leave in water. The study by Gary Julien on Environment Canada (Appendix 5) looked at this. And soon, we should have results on testing of water wells on the island that might give us some data. But when I asked Gary Julien, who I actually hoped might be able to be here, whether he thought that the removal by water would be significant to the graph, he did not. Apparently much of the dispersal that they found and documented in their study was not in the form of dissolved imidacloprid, but more in the form of sediments that were removed from the fields by water (erosion basicly) and by windblown particles of soil. That does not really remove imidacloprid from the PEI environment, it merely spreads it around and it should still be included in the graph. For the bees the ditches are one of the most dangerous places to have the material because that is where many of the weeds like goldenrod that the bees work hard are found. I might mention, that Gary Julien told me that the work they are doing now shows that imidacloprid has effects on fish at much lower levels than its lethal dose. It acts as an endocrine disruptor, or hormone mimic, and leads to genetic damage. He said that this was totally unknown and unstudied at the time that this product was registered. The beekeepers on this island would like to see the use of this product suspended until it can be proved safe to our bees and other essential pollinating insects. We can't afford to do the testing necessary. The Atlantic Vet College has the equipment necessary, and it is very precise, and can do the tests for about $160 a sample. But they need a mimimun number of samples which is large for each matrix that they test (nectar, honey, pollen, flowers). If the potato growers want to use this product in the future, and if the company wants to sell it, they should have to prove it is safe. And if that requires expensive testing, then the sale of it should be subject to a tax to fund that testing. But if the Minister has the good sense to halt the sale of this, then I suppose that it would be up to the company to fund the testing to show it is harmless and try and get it reintroduced. On this same subject, the use of imidacloprid, I believe that Walter Bradley when he was Minister of Agriculture responded to a question by Pat Mella concerning its safety by saying that the Province of PEI did have the power to regulate the sale of materials it deemed potentially hazardous. I think that if this committee looks carefully at the material I have presented it will have to recommend to the Minister that imidacloprid is potentially hazardous to bees and other pollinators at least. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 07:02:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: news on imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wrote: I had produced a graph which showed use and accumulation on PEI and held it up under my head throughout the whole news interview after my presentation, but it was NOT shown on TV because the lawyers at CBC (our national public television station) head office did not stand up to the lawyers from the Bayer company. I now have a little more info, and it was not quite so dramatic as I portrayed. Bayer raised complaints about the validity of my persistence data, and the reporter did not have sufficient time to get all my documentation to the CBC's lawyer so that he would allow them to run with it. The document I had pulled the half life figure's from (R9701 from the Pest Management Regulatory Agency "potato soils... 266 to 457 days" I used one year) was not available to the reporter. So I should not fault our CBC for an otherwise good story and apologize if I portrayed them as gutless. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:08:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 26 Mar 2001 to 27 Mar 2001 (#2001-86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/27/01 11:33:09 PM Central Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > When the notices about the closure of footpaths > I have been curious since first hearing about the outbreak in England: What potential role, if any, might honey bees have in spreading foot and mouth? I'd especially like to hear from our English or Irish subscribers. Has there been any such discussion over there? Matt Higdon mid-MO mid-USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 10:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Mark W. Baird" Subject: Question I am an amateur beekeeper near Albany, NY. Last year, my single hive was empty when I went to wrap it for the winter. There were no signs of bees, hence I don't think there was any disease. My question are related to cleaning things up to get ready for this year (I have ordered my nuc). I have mostly Pierco frames, which have worked fine. Is there anything more I can or should do to clean them in preparation for my new bees other than scraping the leftover comb off? Am I being anal by wanting them to be super clean? There is dark residue left over on the frames, and I am wondering just how picky the bees will be. Thank you in advance. Mark Baird Scotia, NY ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:48:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Trevor Swales Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 26 Mar 2001 to 27 Mar 2001 (#2001-86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 4:08 PM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 26 Mar 2001 to 27 Mar 2001 (#2001-86) > In a message dated 3/27/01 11:33:09 PM Central Standard Time, > LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > > > > When the notices about the closure of footpaths > > > > I have been curious since first hearing about the outbreak in England: What > potential role, if any, might honey bees have in spreading foot and mouth? > I'd especially like to hear from our English or Irish subscribers. Has there > been any such discussion over there? > > Matt Higdon > mid-MO mid-USA Hello Matt, We seem to hear so much contradidtory advice that I have come to the conclusion that nobody really knows exactly how Foot and Mouth disease is spread. Certainly there is a great chance of localised infection between neighbouring farms but there are also isolated outbreaks which take some explaining. Many people are convinced that this virus can be spread by birds and on the wind, but I have not yet heard anybody blame bees. All are agreed however that a major potential source of spread is by humans travelling about.Herein lies the problem facing U.K. beekeepers at the moment-the bees may be OK but we are a risk as far as the spread of infection goes. Yesterday we had a confirmed case of F+M about 8 miles away and as a result of this I am not sure that I am willing to seek the permission of farmers to go to my bees.The thought of just leaving my bees to get on with it is dreadful. We are just coming into Spring and about3-4 weeks away from a major flow.Some stocks may starve,and the rest will certainly swarm away to nothing over the next 2-3 months,especially without supers.(latest forecasts say F+M could run all summer). I was hoping for some drier weather and a chance to move my bees away from livestock areas onto arable areas but with the disease now so close I fear it is too late. As I allready stated this gives me no pleasure but I think it would be wrong of me to put any pressure whatsoever on livestock farmers who are allready very frightened. To be philosophical about it,my bees are just a part-time sideline business to me but as I think about them more or less 24/7 it is a setback. Trevor Swales,Yorkshire,England.