From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:47 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDks18803 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:46 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDhJ12730 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDhJ12730@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0104B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 95169 Lines: 1981 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:30:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like to use automobile tires as hive stands. They are free and easy to get. No construction needed. They never rot. They cushion the hive if you sort of drop it. You can see how heavy a hive is by the compression of the tire. I suppose you could stack two if you wanted to raise the height. Might be worth experimenting with. Cesar Flores Colorado USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: weather conditions for bee packages ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Our present weather, and what is predicted for >the weekend, is ~ 45-50 degrees F, and rainy. >> I have installed packages several time in the mid 30's F with snow on the ground. I feed pollen and sugar syrup until the weather moderates. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 07:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim McGarry Subject: Re: weather conditions for bee packages ... All the prior posts are good advice. Last year I installed too many packages on a windy rain-mixed with snow day. I was chilled to the bone, my fingers were numb, but those packages went on to make one huge honey crop despite the rain, swarms and otherwise poor conditins for the season. The bees certainly will benefit from Fumidil-B syrup and a pollen patty will supply the protein they'll need if the weather continues unsuitable for foraging. Have faith in the resiliancy of honeybees and "enjoy" a slightly different beekeeping experience. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 21:56:11 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Hayward Subject: Re: Hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glad to see someone putting at least a few of the vast resource of used tyres to good use. I especially like the "compression scale effect" for getting an idea of how full the hives are. Although in the northern parts of Australia hives need to be elevated to prevent cane toads from eating the bees, I would be loathe to use this type of stand (assuming there is a gap between the bottom board and the tyre) for a couple of reasons - firstly because the tyres catch and store water which would allow mosquitos to breed; and secondly, if I were a snake looking for a nice warm hidy hole, what better than a black, windproof & weather proof tyre!! We generally use two 4"x3" planks raised on concrete blocks or metal stands. Mark Hayward 'Doctor Rock's Honey' Brisbane Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Hive stands > I like to use automobile tires as hive stands. They are free and easy to get. > No construction needed. They never rot. They cushion the hive if you sort of > drop it. You can see how heavy a hive is by the compression of the tire. > > I suppose you could stack two if you wanted to raise the height. Might be > worth experimenting with. > > Cesar Flores > Colorado USA > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:58:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: weather conditions for bee packages ...(pollen) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > bees certainly will benefit from Fumidil-B syrup and a pollen patty will > supply the protein they'll need if the weather continues unsuitable for reply: It would be even better if one could supply one comb of pollen/honey. This is also one of those times pollen traps are benificial. As the pollen that was trapped could be feed to packages(forget the artificial stuff if the real is available). Clay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:07:08 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Hiving a package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I want to replace my post to a Puget Sound, WA beekeeper who asked for instructions on hiving a package during the current cool conditions. I have posted a detailed list of instructions on . Click on "Resources", scroll down to, and click on, "Enter Forum", and click on "Hiving a Package" Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 06:54:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Used tires as hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cesar Flores recommended used tires as hive stands. Mark Hayward cautioned about breeding grounds for mosquitoes. As the risk of being repetitive, I will repeat the caution of mosquito breeding ground. Being very close to ground zero for West Nile Virus hysteria, used tires are being named as public enemy number three, number two being mosquitoes and number one being the virus itself. The general public is being strongly encouraged to clean up all old tires, some communities are sponsoring free tire recycle services and a few communities are financing tire shredders, all to abate mosquito populations. If you use old tires as hive stands, first drill holes in the sidewalls to allow water to drain out of the tire. Even then, holes will clog, water will collect, mosquitoes will breed, politicians will cover their asses, spraying programs will commence and bees will die. Admittedly this is a dramatic scenario, but hey, drama happens! Aaron Morris - thinking tires, BAD! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: summer/winter bees Comments: cc: "vmr@sun3.oulu.fi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Victor Benno Meyer-Rochow asked for publications/references regarding weight differences between winter and summer bees? I am not sure, but perhaps some of Justin Schmidt's work on pollen protien done at the Tucson Bee Lab may include pertinent information. Personally I would have guessed the weights would have been the other way around; that winter bees would weight more than summer beew, WHEN PROPERLY NOURISHED. I recall a presentation Justin did at the Eastern Apicultural Society conference in Maryland, talking about "fat bodies" and pollen. When questioned about fall pollen feeding to "fatten bees up for the winter", Justin fell short of a recommendation because he had not studied specifically that issue. But his intuitive answer was, "It couldn't hurt". You may find something at GEARS at: http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/ Aaron Morris - thinking keep Tucson open! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:01:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by pleroy@WCTEL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=8836C239) (39 lines) ------------------- Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 21:22:53 -0400 From: Paul S LeRoy Subject: Re: Hive stands Most beekeepers in the Carribean use tires and they claim good results and especially helpful against termites which are a big problem there. One key however is to use the larger size car tires or pick-up size tires as they offer more support. Also need to start off almost level with just a little lean to the front. If put on very unlevel areas they tend to lean worse as the colony builds up and stores more honey and will give you a very unlevel colony and could affect the natural angle of drawn comb for honey storage. Paul LeRoy, frequent visitor to various Islands in the Carribean. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 11:35:06 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm new to this news group so if this topic has been beaten to death I'm = glad of that fact but sorry to bore you. Been beekeeping for 25 years in = Ontario, Sask, Alta, and now PEI. All these are in Canada. Our big cash = crop here is potatoes. Crop rotations are potatoes, grain (usually = barley), red clover/timothy mix (sometimes a bit of sweet clover or = alsike thrown in) for hay. In 1996 potato farmers started using a new = systemic insecticide called Admire (active chemical is Imidacloprid) on = the potato crop. It is applied in the furrow as the potato sets are = being planted so at first thought it should not cause any problems with = bees since no spray drift and bees do not visit potato blossoms. = Apparently, from research done in France, the problem arrives on the = clover crop. The chemical stays in the soil a long time and comes up in = the succeeding crops. If they are pollen and necter producers then the = bees can get the chemical. Bees are very suseptable to imidacloprid = poisoning at extremely low doses ( 3ppb ) That's 3 parts per Billion. = Problems start showing up as higher-than-normal winter losses. My = losses are normally 10 to 20% of hives wintered. The past two winters = have given me losses of 50% and 80%. I haven't done an inventory this = year yet as we are still up to the hive tops (2 boxes) in snow. Most = beekeepers, me included, on PEI experienced rather heavy losses last = summer as well. I try to operate 300-400 hives but was down to 250 in = the fall. My hives have NO MITES.=20 Imidacloprid is in about a dozen brand name chemicals and are all made = by Bayer( to my knowledge). Admire, Condifor, Gaucho, Premier, Premise, = Provado, Marathon, Merit, and Impower are the names of which I am aware. = Imidacloprid is used on such crops as rice, cereals, corn, potatoes, = sunflowers, tomatoes, various vegetables, canola, sugar beets, fruit, = cotton, millet, hops and turf. It has a half life fluctuating from = about 9 months to 2 years depending on the soil and weather conditions.=20 According to reports out of France, Imidacloprid has killed about = 300,000 hives. They had the problem working sunflowers. Bayer has been = presenting very poor evidence (in my opinion) that Imid. does no harm to = honeybees. The dead hives in France and here on PEI are still dead = though. I again apologize for droning on and boring you but this = chemical is or will be a problem for beekeepers world wide. By the way, = France has suspended the use of Imidacloprid for one year and just = recently extended that suspension for 2 more years. I will monitor the group and if there is requests for more info I will = try to comply. Please don't ignor this chemical. I've had bees next to = potatoes for many years with no problems but this is different. Big Al ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:43:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis van Engelsdorp Subject: Master Beekeeper Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Cornell University's Master Beekeeper Program is pleased to announce the courses it will be offering in the year 2001 including: Apprentice Level Spring and Fall Courses Apprentice Level Examination. (Mail -in) Journey Level Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding Journey Level Integrated Pest Management - Reducing Pesticide use in the Bee Yard Journey Level Field Day Journey Level Photo essay in beekeeping (distant education course) For more information please visit: www.masterbeekeeper.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:18:55 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: bees do not visit potato blossoms ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > bees do not visit potato blossoms said a recent post. I would be grateful to learn of any exceptions known to this pattern. The reason is that some potatoes are being trialled in my country GEd to contain a systemic poison (a toxin from the African clawed toad) and we have controversy about 'safety zones'. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 20:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: KEITH B.FORSYTH Subject: Re: bees do not visit potato blossoms ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Free in his 2nd edition of Insect Pollination of Crops (1993) p.502 states: "Stevenson and Clark (1937) reported that in some localities bumblebees and honey bees are often seen visiting them[potato flower], and they thought that insects may cause much more cross-pollination than commonly supposed. Sanford and Hannemann (1981) observed bumble bees (Bombus impatiens) but no honey bees foraging on potato flowers in the field in Wisconsin, USA, but when colonies of honey bees and bumble bees (B.fervidus) were introduced to cages of flowering potatoes the bees were not attracted to the flowers and few fruits were produced." Deleplane and Mayer in Crop Pollination by Bees (2000) p.66 state: Bumble bees and certain solitary bees are capable of doing this [buzz-pollinate], and this makes them valuable pollinators of buzz-pollinated crops such as blueberry, eggplant, seed potato and tomato (Plowright and Laverty, 1987; Cane and Payne, 1990) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:22:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dubas Subject: Nucs - Pollination - Over Wintering Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question: I normally pollinate with a double deep hive. I see that some poeple pollinate with Nucs. How is the ratio different as far as crops ? Meaning how many 5 frame nucs in comparrison to a full double deep hive ? Also is it possible to over winter a 5 frame nuc with out feeding it ? Does not seem possible. Here in the Northeast a lot of beekeepers lost many colonies. Including me. The hives that remain are generally weak. All were medicated and strong going into fall. They all seem off to a slow start. Andrew ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:12:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Nucs - Pollination - Over Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Andrew and All, Question: I normally pollinate with a double deep hive. I see that some poeple pollinate with Nucs. How is the ratio different as far as crops ? Over wintered hives strong in two deeps & bees returning from California & Texas polinate much better in the Midwest than nucs. However many times nucs made up strong will get the job done. Some growers will not accept nucs while some will. Nucs are cheaper to rent in the midwest. Meaning how many 5 frame nucs in comparrison to a full double deep hive ? I had hives ready to split last week sitting on 9 frames of brood. If the average nuc is made up with three frames of emerging brood then at least two. I cut a few swarm cells last week. The number of foragers is the key. Overwintered strong hives do better than a nuc made up mostly with nurse bees from the brood nest and emerging brood. Also is it possible to over winter a 5 frame nuc with out feeding it ? Why wouldn't you want to feed the nuc if its low on stores? Does not seem possible. Here in the Northeast a lot of beekeepers lost many colonies. Including me. The hives that remain are generally weak. All were medicated and strong going into fall. They all seem off to a slow start. You need to test and find the root of the problem! Most beekeepers in our area which used Apistan & Apicure are seeing huge losses. If you used one of those I would test for Varroa. Go through your deadouts and search for the cause. Good luck with the bees! Bob ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:54:51 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Nucs - Pollination - Over Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Not sure how many nuc's equal one double deep colony but it's quite a few I'm sure. > The number of foragers is the key. Overwintered strong hives do better than > a nuc made up mostly with nurse bees from the brood nest and emerging brood. > Also is it possible to over winter a 5 frame nuc with out feeding it ? reply: Yes its possible to over winter a five frame nuc without feeding as I often do this. > Why wouldn't you want to feed the nuc if its low on stores? You can't get away with not feeding every year. Some years it works out fine. Some times if one doesn't feed them they won't make it. Its a judgement call. When in doubt feed them which is certainly better than the alternative. I personally use my nucs to replace my deadouts. If the girls come through fine sell some or what ever you want to do(two queen colonies, ect.). Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 13:49:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Used tires as hive stands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mosquitoes breeding in car tires are not such a problem here in the mountain west, however I forgot to mention the other problem is that rattlesnakes like them too... Cesar Flores Colorado USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 22:32:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: please don't employ used motor oil In-Reply-To: <200104040722.DAA00986@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Tim Rich wrote: > And - I appreciate the suggestion of mineral oil instead of used > motor oil. My mentor paints all his stands with used motor oil > regularly. I don't like to see the oil slick running down the creek > from my hives, and have avoided this method when possible - which is > always, now! I cringed when I read this. I would ask you to ask your mentor, as gently as possible, to stop employing used motor oil for his hive stands. Used motor oil is vile stuff. It's flammable, it's persistent in the environment when not exposed to direct sunlight and warm temperatures, and it smells. It's frequently contaminated with heavy metals, antifreeze, and other things picked up in the engine. The evidence that used motor oil is carcinogenic is strong enough that all retail motor oil produced since 1985 must bear this warning: "CAUTION: Avoid prolonged or repeated skin contact with used motor oil. Used motor oil has been shown to cause skin cancer in laboratory animals. Thoroughly wash exposed areas with soap and water." The "oil slicks" that your mentor creates winds up contaminating hundreds of thousands of gallons of drinking water: http://www.epa.gov/grtlakes/seahome/housewaste/house/motoroil.htm And finally, improper disposal of used motor oil is a crime, in virtually all areas of the United States. I suspect your mentor would be upset if local farmers improperly applied insecticides and killed his bees. Yet the damage he is inflicting on the environment is no less severe, and no less forgivable. Please see if you might be able to make him realize the error of his ways. -- James Ralston Pittsburgh, PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 05:36:25 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: bees don't visit potato blossoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert I know nothing of African clawed toads but I have been beekeeping on PEI = 11 years. PEI is really a large potato patch so if bees work potatoes I = would certainly have seen it. And I have not. Nor has any beekeeper on PEI. = This is a good thing since so many very nasty insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides are sprayed on potato fields. Imidacloprid, to my knowledge, = is the only in-furrow pesticide used here and it does not pose any obvious problems until the clover rotation comes around in year 3. Then bees = begin to die...especially during the winter following the clover. Hope this helps. Regards, Big Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mann" To: Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 6:18 PM Subject: bees do not visit potato blossoms ? > > bees do not visit potato blossoms > said a recent post. > I would be grateful to learn of any exceptions known to this pattern. = The > reason is that some potatoes are being trialled in my country GEd to > contain a systemic poison (a toxin from the African clawed toad) and = we > have controversy about 'safety zones'. > > R > > - > Robt Mann > consultant ecologist > P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand > (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:25:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Celebration for Dan Deasy Comments: To: IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello All Many list members will have heard of and probably met Dan Deasy, especially at Gormanston where he contributes greatly each year, especially on the examination panel. Dan together with his wife Kathleen, is one of our best known and respected beekeepers, both having been at beekeeping all their lives. Dan has now reached 90 years, and we are throwing a little bit of a party for him (Irish style!) at the Tara Tower Hotel, Merrion Road, Dublin 4, on 21st April at 1.00pm. If anybody would like to attend please send a cheque for £15.50 per person to Mr Joe Kelly Treasurer County Dublin Beekeepers Association 46 Wynberg Park Blackrock Co Dublin We are looking forward to a very good attendance. I know that Dan would love to receive messages from his beekeeping friends from all over the world on that day, and I would invite one and all to send a message to Dan. I have arranged with the hotel as follows: If you send an e mail to brigid_mullaney@jurysdoyle.com and mention the Beekeepers lunch on 21st April at 1.00pm, it will be read out during the lunch. A fax to + 353 1 269 1027 for the attention of Brigid Mullaney mentioning the Beekeepers lunch will also reach Dan. Sincerely Tom Barrett Hon. Secretary County Dublin Beekeepers Association 49 South Park Foxrock Dublin 18 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael Bassett Subject: Re: Nucs - Pollination - Over Wintering Andrew Dubas wrote: >Also is it possible to over winter a 5 frame nuc with out feeding it ? Does >not seem possible. Here in the Northeast a lot of beekeepers lost many >colonies. Including me. The hives that remain are generally weak. All were >medicated and strong going into fall. They all seem off to a slow start. I'm from Massachusetts and during the last 10 winters wintering 5 frame nucs was never a problem. I winter some on top of hives others on the ground. this winter was longer and harder than the last 10 years. the first 55 degree day we had was 4/5/01 the previous day that warm was early Nov. I started out with 86 full size hives. have lost 10 so far. last year at this time 2nd week of april I was reversing brood chambers to keep up with the bees, this year probable more like 1st week of May. out of 18 5frame nucs I have 5 left. out of 10 1/2 frame five frame nucs i have 2 left. Normally I lose very few during the winter but most starved out even with feeders on as they coudn't get to the feeders, and all the hives that survived were on the ground as it appears the ones over the hives expanded faster due to the heat from below. I treated some with apistan and some with checkmite and found little difference percentage wise as to survival or cluster size but this is somewhat hard to say as I treated all the hives that were showing pms with checkmite but since i had already purchased the apistan treated the rest with apistan and apicure. I am treating all with checkmite this spring and was wondering if others using checkmite in the spring had noticed a loss of brood around the areas where the strips were hanging. I coudn't check to many of the hives as I was putting in the strips when it was 40 degrees and windy(best day I could find) the few that I did check had eggs through sealed brood, when I could check this past thursday which would put me about 30 days into the treatment I found queens, with eggs laid but no lava or brood. when I checked this weekend they seem to be progressing better and the strips will be coming out this weekend so I can check again. Mike Bassett central Mass and Conn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 12:15:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: John Fruetel's *Bee Boom* Hello All, I traded for a *Bee Boom* last spring and installed on a extra trailer. The *Bee Boom* was working on a truck in California. We tested the boom by hooking up a battery to the hot and ground post. Works great. The truck the boom came off of had extra solinoids under the hood. We left those as they were wired into the trucks electrical system. Many of these *Bee Booms* were sold in the U.S. as they were advertised in all the bee magazines. We have got no instructions. Question: Can we simply hook the positive cable from the boom to one side of a battery and the ground cable from the boom to the negative side of a battery without causing long term damage to the boom or do we need to add additional solinoids? I tried to contact John Fruetel at his advertised phone number but the number was no longer in service. Any beekeepers still have a set of John's instuctions they would send me? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 13:26:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: John Fruetel's *Bee Boom* In-Reply-To: <200104111652.MAA05251@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:15 PM 4/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello All, >I traded for a *Bee Boom* last spring and installed on a extra trailer. The >Can we simply hook the positive cable from the boom to one side of a >battery and the ground cable from the boom to the negative side of a >battery without causing long term damage to the boom or do we need to add >additional solinoids? Bob, At the very least, I would insure that there was a fuse in the circuit to prevent a meltdown/fire in the case of the motor being overloaded/seizing up. Look on the label on the motor itself to determine an appropriate amperage. Mike Churchill Mike Churchill, Beginning Beekeeper | What's the buzz all about? mike.churchill@netmechanic.com http://www.netmechanic.com - Power Tools for Your Web Site Link and HTML testing, Server Reliability Testing, Website Promotion Tools ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 14:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: "morharn@mint.net"@mint.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong <"morharn@mint.net"@MINT.NET> Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Report, central Maine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shirtsleeve weather today, but snowshoes are still needed to get to the hives. The bees were flying heavily, but there is no pollen, much less any nectar. They had inhaled their fake pollen patties, but could care less about sweets and were busily tossing the sugar I had given them out the front door. Once they got their fake pollen, the flying really decreased. I think they had been scouting for pollen or something like it. Fourteen of fourteen still going strong, and in a marvelous mood. The only thing I have to watch is to put in the new patty before removing even the wax paper left over from the old patty or the bees whack my hands. Many people seem equivocal about pollen feeding, but my bees emphatically want it. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 22:15:24 -0400 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: John Fruetel's *Bee Boom* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I built myself a Kelly style loader for a "1 ton" truck which would be something like your boom. You certainly should install a cut off switch to avoid accidental use of the boom. I used a battery switch from a agricultural tractor. You need very heavy cable if the battery is any distance from the winch. I used welding cable. The boom was my ground. You will need solenoid for the up and down switches, otherwise they will burn out with the current. I used the old style relays for starter motors. With my boom l moved lots of hives over a period of 6 years and never had an electrical problem. I now have a larger truck and a Payne loader. Peter . Question: > Can we simply hook the positive cable from the boom to one side of a > battery and the ground cable from the boom to the negative side of a > battery without causing long term damage to the boom or do we need to add > additional solinoids? > Bob Harrison > Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 23:32:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: John Fruetel's * Bee Boom* Hi Bob, I purchased a used Bee Boom 16 years ago and have always hooked it directly up to the truck battery. The Bee Boom itself has a couple of solonoids up by it's motor and they must sort everything out because I've never had any trouble with it. The only weak point on my model is the 4 way wire coupler that runs power to the pick-up carriage. It tends to corrode the wires off which can break free and close the switch. For this reason I always disconnect the positive cable to the battery when the Bee Boom is not in use. For the uninitiated I will mention a bit about using these machines. My carriage has forks that slide underneath a hive's bottom board. If for some reason you stumble and happen to let a hive slip off the carriage in mid flight, the forks will spring skyward as the weight of the hive is released, giving the departing edge of the bottom board a sproing into the air thus flipping the hive upside down. This is never a happy moment for the bees or the beekeeper ( welcome to hell, here's your hive loader) but the bee boom probably gets a kick out of it. This can be avoided with practise but usually occurs on some hot sticky night in a yard that a bear has been bothering. Things can also get complicated when your bee yard is on a slope, something that is hard to avoid in this part of the country. My unit has a leveling device, but it's so hard to adjust I never bother. The trick when operating on a slope is to always make sure you are down hill from the bee hive as you swing down to the truck. With heavy hives this is a lot like sumo-wrestling in the moonlight and you have to do a lot of fancy foot work to keep the upper hand. I always make sure my boom is fastened when travelling. I know a beekeeper who had the end of his boom come loose while he was crossing a bridge. It swung into the front of an oncoming tractor-trailer unit and was knocked into the drink. The beekeeper said he knew something was wrong because as the semi approached he could see the driver's eyes growing wide with fright. The Bee Boom was fished out of the water and still works fine. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:48:49 -0400 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Bee Booms and Sumo wrestling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings l have to agree with Ted about the below mentioned problems, of course everything happens at night when we can't see too well. To avoid the hives slipping off the forks l welded a spot onto each fork close to the back. This way the forks slip under the hive until the last few inches, and then the little spots of weld bite into the bottom board and thus prevent the hive slipping of and doing exactly as Ted has described. It's even more spectacular when there is two hives on the forks. I have worked with booms for over 17 years now and they often provoke a rich verbal monologue; maybe the new Easy Loader is easier on the vocabulary?? Peter For the uninitiated I will mention a bit about using these machines. My > carriage has forks that slide underneath a hive's bottom board. If for some > reason you stumble and happen to let a hive slip off the carriage in mid > flight, the forks will spring skyward as the weight of the hive is > released, giving the departing edge of the bottom board a sproing into the > air thus flipping the hive upside down. This is never a happy moment for > the bees or the beekeeper ( welcome to hell, here's your hive loader) but > the bee boom probably gets a kick out of it. This can be avoided with > practise but usually occurs on some hot sticky night in a yard that a bear > has been bothering. With heavy hives this is a lot like sumo-wrestling in the moonlight and you have to do a lot of fancy foot work to keep the upper hand. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:17:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: bees don't visit potato blossoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Al & All, Al wrote: This is a good thing since so many very nasty insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides are sprayed on potato fields. Imidacloprid, to my knowledge, = is the only in-furrow pesticide used here and it does not pose any obvious problems until the clover rotation comes around in year 3. Then bees begin to die...especially during the winter following the clover. Would a possible solution for the Clover problem be for the grower to plant a green manure crop the bees don't work? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:39:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wright Subject: shipping problem - advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I ordered starline bees from a southern company advertising all packages = sent priority mail. I ordered starlines because I am a hobbyist wanting = to try the reportedly docile nature of the starlines in hopes of better = neighbor relations. I ordered from this particular company because they = advertised priority shipments and I live in a city isolated by about 200 = miles from anywhere; even FedEx classifies us as a "remote location." After checking on my shipment I discovered my bees were not sent from = the state I ordered from, but from a contractor in California (since I = am a little closer to the contractor), that my starline queen was first = priority mailed to the contractor who packaged her with 3 lbs of = Italians and shipped them to me on the 5th. The problem I have is that = the contractor did NOT ship my package priory mail as the company's = flyer advertised. They have been in transit now for nearly 8 days with = no sign of delivery and the queen has been in transit for at least an = additional 3 days. It seems to me this is really pushing it. My assumption is that my = package will arrive decimated at the least, but I don't have much = experience shipping bees. I am hoping for a little advice from the = list members on how to proceed. Is it possible the package will arrive = a-OK or should I get started on another order from a different company? = I'm afraid I've lost my chances at an early start this spring. Any = suggestions would be appreciated. Many Thanks, S. Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 23:50:15 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: bees don't visit potato blossoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, Referring to your solution for the clover problem: Are you advocating that beekeepers loose another honey source due to the probable poisoning of a nectar source that was not originally targeted as a plant to be protected. It is bad enough that crops themselves are out of bounds for bees without having to put up with the residual effects of pesticides in the soil polluting plants that grow afterwards - I thought that was one of the reasons for getting rid of a whole selection of pesticides like OC's and OP's. I for one am trying to ensure that they aren't replaced by another generation of noxious substances that again degrade the environment. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:00:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: bees don't visit potato blossoms Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, >From the sound of the original post it seemed the beekeeper made decent crops each year but the clover year from other sources. Now I will say that beekeepers have always picked up dead hives from many pesticides and never collected a dime. To hard to prove in most cases and chemical companys retain lawyers year around to fight damage claims. I can't count the number of dead hives from pesticides I have had and haven't collected a dime. There are less beekeepers now than at any time in history. We are a very small group. I have learned to live with pesticides and move away from pesticide areas. I have got friends living next to the 19 apple orchards close to me which can't even keep a hive of bees on their property because the 14 plus pesticide sprays a season kill all their bees. Drifts to the clover planted as ground cover. They have complained and also tried to collect damage without getting a dime. The orchards were there first. I would imagine the potato growers were in the beekeepers area first also. Maybe the EPA will stop the use of imidicloprid and help the beekeeper out. I hope they do but I am planning on moving away from those areas in case they don't. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:18:09 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: potatoes and pesticides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, I've been lurking on this list for awhile to get a feel for it. I keep 4 hives organically (all bustling so far this spring) on Prince Edward Island. I'm also an environmental activist involved mainly in agricultural issues for the past 7 years - specifically pesticides. Al posted that as far as he knew imidacloprid is the only in-furrow pesticide used on PEI. Al and I know each other and I could have answered him privately but in case any one else is interested, there are others applied this way. Phorate, an organophosphate, is a granular systemic insecticide used in-furrow. It's persistant in soil, a known groundwater polluter and horribly toxic to birds, fish and other wildlfe. Environment Canada reports Canada geese were poisoned by phorate during spring snow melt in a PEI potato field treated the previous spring with granular phorate. It's commonly used on PEI and registered for potatoes and corn, among other crops. I've never seen any research looking at carry over to crops planted in succeeding years. All formulations but one are banned in the USA. Almost as insidious as imidacloprid are the synthetic pyrethroids (insecticides) - also commonly used on PEI and elsewhere. There's a good article on Beesource.com describing overwintering mortalities - The Effects of Synthetic Pyrethroid Insecticides on Honey Bees in Indiana. One, cypermethrin, has increased in use since 1995 on PEI. And a new one was registered for use on potatoes in 1999 for the first time. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:39:34 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: sprayers and pollen substitute Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Bob Harrison wrote: > I would imagine the potato growers were in the beekeepers area first also. Mostly not. The number of acres of potatoes on PEI increased by 70% in a ten year period beginning in the late 1980's. It would not have happened except for massive government subsidies and corporate investment. There were never potatoes grown within a couple of kilometres of my place until the last few years. The argument the pesticide sprayers use - that they were there first - is nonsense. Whether they were or not doesn't matter. No one has the right to kill or harm other living things, or to prevent other people from earning a living, no matter what the law may say. Public opposition to pesticides is growing. Beekeepers can take advantage of this by publicizing their plight, and highlighting the fate of native pollinators as well. On a different topic - does anyone have a good recipe for pollen substitute? I tried a recipe from a reputable source once but my bees would have none of it. I'd like to try again. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:45:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: pollen substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > On a different topic - does anyone have a good recipe for pollen > substitute? I tried a recipe from a reputable source once but my bees would > have none of it. I'd like to try again. This topic is covered extensively in the archives, which can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html You'll hit some of Andy's finer moments! Alan also devotes a lot of time and space to this topic on his page at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen/PollenSup.htm Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:47:14 -0500 Reply-To: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: wtroyer Organization: Honey Hill farm Subject: Re: shipping problem - advice needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I ordered starline bees.... I am hoping for a little advice.... Based on my experience with bee shipments within the USA, packages are shipped regular mail, queens only are shipped priority mail. You can discuss this with your supplier and with your local post office to determine best possible arrangements from the source to you. Some post offices will agree to call when the bees arrive so you can pick them up directly. > Is it possible the package will arrive a-OK.... Any suggestions would be > appreciated. Wait for arrival and examine the bees immediately. Contact the supplier if you have questions or problems. Most suppliers I have dealt with are very good with customer satisfaction. Assuming some live bees and a queen, you should hive up the bees, and add a feeder with sugar water. Look for signs of egg laying after 3 to 5 days. If you can add some drawn comb frames and/or capped brood, you can give the bees a huge head start. A frame of honey would be nice too. If you don't have these perhaps you could find a local beekeeper who would help. Wade -- Web Site: http://www.honeyhillfarm.com E-mail: beekeeper@honeyhillfarm.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:25:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pollen substitute Sharon's bees don't like to take the pollen substitute. This is not an uncommon complaint. There are several ways to get bees to take it, and most work just some of the time. The only way I know of that works all of the time is to mix approximately 25% natural pollen, and then add just enough 1:1 sugar water to make firm patties. Stack up the patties between wax paper, and then put the wax paper and all on the top bars. Lloyd Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 08:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: sprayers and pollen substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sharon & All, Sharon wrote: The argument the pesticide sprayers use - that they were there first - is nonsense. Whether they were or not doesn't matter. No one has the right to kill or harm other living things, or to prevent other people from earning a living, no matter what the law may say. I agree completely BUT most courts don't see it that way. My brother is a lawyer. Let us use the apple orchards as a example. There have been apple orchards which have been at their location for over a hundred years. Many people are employed. The sprays they use are approved by the EPA. The beekeeper buys a house across the street and decides to keep bees. Every year his bees die from pesticide kills. In a real Missouri situation a beekeeper bought across the street from a orchard mainly so his bees could work the spring apple blossoms. Excellent place to keep bees *he thought*. His package bees would expand rapidly then die as the spraying begain. THAT'S WHY BEES ARE REMOVED FROM THE ORCHARDS. A fellow beekeeper lost 24 hives at a distance of one and a half miles from a orchard one year. The orchard growers are friends of mine. Beekeepers ( and myself) have tried to talk the orchard growers out of using the stronger pesticides but to no avail. I grow organic apples and can't sell a organic apple sitting next to the orchard growers with polished, sprayed ,waxed perfect apples. I have to sell mine added value. The fact my apples are organic has not helped me. I am organic partly because a huge number of bees are at the home location at various times of the year. Glad I have only got 70 fruit trees. The orchard growers use what works the best for them. They hire Missouri bees for polination. We keep no bees within two miles of the orchards after the bloom is over until late fall. Above is the way the problem was resolved. The above case ended up in the courts with the hobby beekeeper paying big lawyer fees. Sharon wrote: Public opposition to pesticides is growing. Beekeepers can take advantage of this by publicizing their plight, and highlighting the fate of native pollinators as well. We do three farmers markets a week and sell a small amount of organic produce along with our hive products. We sell in health food stores. We see about the same amount of organic buyers and people opposed to pesticides as we always have seen. Most customers are uninformed. We sell to *Nature's Choice* which is the largest organic food share we know of. At present they enjoy over a hundred customers which get organic produce each week during the season. I talk to Organic growers and they say the movement is growing but at a snails pace. The cities in commuting range of * Nature's Choice* comprise over a million people. 100 people versus one million makes the movement very small. The EPA is the place to stop the use of many chemicals but many still get approval any way. Justice seems to be the *will of the stronger in the U.S. today.* Sadly when strong pesticides are banned in the U.S. the crops are grown in other countries where the pesticides ARE LEGAL and then the crops are shipped back to the U.S. to sell. Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 07:47:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: pollen substitute In-Reply-To: <200104131237.IAA21097@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is not an uncommon complaint. There are several ways to get bees to > take it, and most work just some of the time. The only way I know of that > works all of the time is to mix approximately 25% natural pollen, and then > add just enough 1:1 sugar water to make firm patties. I no longer use any natural pollen at all when making patties, and do not recommend using it -- unless you have trapped it yourself. Even then, unless it is stored undried and frozen, trapped pollen will likely have lost many -- if not most -- of its best properties, and may contain brood pathogens. Our carefully considered discontinuation of pollen use in patties is due to the increasing incidence of resistant foulbrood in North America, and the *certainty* of spreading other brood diseases when trapped pollen is used in a diet. FWIW, I am not even convinced that radiation treatment -- which we have used -- will ensure safety. In the past, we used pollen primarily as an attractant, but excellent results can be achieved with patties that do not contain any pollen if white sugar is at least 50% of the patty formula. Rearing of queens is still, in my mind, and exception. Pollen cakes are recommended over artificial diets for queen rearing by Steve Tabor (I don't know why. He does not say). As I recall, he cautions against artificial diets for feeding cell builders, and we have never tried using artificial supplementation for that job. Nonetheless, I would guess that, in addition to the benefits, there may be some downside to feeding pollen cakes if the pollen contains any chalkbrood or sacbrood. Some mortality of the developing queens must be caused by pollen borne disease. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/Pollen/PollenSup.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:02:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: pollen substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > works all of the time is to mix approximately 25% natural pollen, and then > add just enough 1:1 sugar water to make firm patties. I am sure Lloyd would add that you should be sure of the pollen source. Imported pollen for human consumption has been found to have AFB spores. Not all, but enough that it should not be used. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:08:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: incubator humidity range Hello All, Can you help me with the best humidity range for queen cells in a wood cabinet incubator from the 10th day to the 15th day? I am using 94 F. as the temperature. I have been able to find the temperature in books but not the humidity. Do other Bee-L beekeepers use a different temperature? If so why? Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 12:11:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: frame feeders A couple of years ago I started using frame feeders. They have advantages over buckets but are a pain to clean. I use a galvanized mesh that zigzags the length and depth of the feeder in place of a float. However every spring there are always some hives that end up with a layer of dead bees in the bottom of the feeder, sometimes with a bit of green mould growing on top. I pull the feeder out, pull the screen out and wang the feeder upside down until it is relatively clean. Has anyone come up with an easier way to clean frame feeders? What pathogens can be spread through bees drinking contaminated syrup? Specifically, if a bee drowns in the feeder and carries a virus in her blood stream, can the syrup become contaminated with the virus? Can a bee drinking this syrup have the virus pass from her digestive system to her blood stream? We are finally getting some spring here. The snow has been gone below the 4000 foot level since early March but the temp. has had trouble getting much above freezing. Last two days it has climbed to +5C, shirt sleeve weather. Pussy willows are just starting. We had a fairly easy winter with temp. staying in the -10C to -20C range. My bees look good with 10% pushing into the second box, 75% covering eight or nine frames, 10% covering three to four frames and 5% dead. Snow pack in central B.C. is reported to be 30% below normal. In early March a beaver started plugging a culvert up the valley that carries a creek under the road. When a beaver is active this early it is supposed to be sign of a dry summer. Could also be mad beaver disease. Still, with winter past I can't complain. I have been horrified to hear of the losses suffered in P.E.I. and congratulate all the beekeepers there and in France who are leading the public fight against Bayer and it's pesticide. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:18:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: incubator humidity range In-Reply-To: <200104131509.LAA26223@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can you help me with the best humidity range for queen cells in a wood > cabinet incubator from the 10th day to the 15th day? I am using 94 F. as > the temperature. I have been able to find the temperature in books but not > the humidity. Do other Bee-L beekeepers use a different temperature? If so > why? Good info on the temperatures and humidifies and other details of queen rearing is hard to find. Many beekeepers use 92 degrees F for the reason that this provides a margin of safety against overheating which is far, far more harmful -- even for a short time -- than slightly cooler than optimal conditions. Most cheap thermostats vary a bit in their regulation and there can be an additional problems if the ambient temperature outside the enclosure varies much. After a thermostat acts, there is always a time delay until the heat in the enclosure rises or falls. Resulting temperature overshoot depends on how much the temperature drops when the door is opened, the temperature difference between the inside and outside of the box, the mass of the cabinet vs. the mass of the heater unit and the mass of the thermostat, and other factors. Heat inertia is the wild card here. Moreover, there may be hot and cold spots in the enclosure due to the shape, location of the heat source, convection, heat radiation from the heater, etc. Sunlight falling on one part of the incubator for a period of time can distort the temperatures inside too. A memory type indoor/outdoor thermometer available from Radio Shack can be an invaluable learning and monitoring tool. There are alarm equipped models available too, all in the under $50 range. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:17:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Allen wrote: Good info on the temperatures and humidifies and other details of queen rearing is hard to find. Several of my friends keep only a container of water in the incubator for humidity and have never checked humidity. Allen wrote: Many beekeepers use 92 degrees F for the reason that this provides a margin of safety against overheating which is far, far more harmful -- even for a short time -- than slightly cooler than optimal conditions. I use a electronic thermostat which is uneffected by barometric pressure changes. The thermostat is the type used to hatch Ostrich eggs and 1/10 degree F. activates this thermostat. Nick Carlderone gave us the temperature of 94 F. The incubator can be set for precise humidity settings if only I knew what those were. Maybe precise humidity is not neccessary. Nick did not mention a humidity setting when he sent us the 94 F. temperature. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:45:39 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: sprayers and pollen substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, Liz, and anybody else reading this mail, Yes, the legal system "tends" to serve the strong, well resourced and protected. But this is definitely no excuse for accepting the "status quo" - If this was the case then things would never move forward. Presumably, the "environment" would deteriorate at an even faster rate. It is very evident that lobbies work and for them to have influence requires a supporting population. Look at the ground swell in Europe - there are many activists, ordinary people who a decade ago would not have even bothered to think "green". Now it is becoming an attitude that is accepted by a high percentage of the population. This in turn is being instilled into the next generation (not as propaganda!) who consider protecting our surroundings as natural as breathing. People want clean food, water, air and are demanding that it is supplied. The system as it stands has allowed B.S.E., toxic fruit and veg. on to the market, poisoned poultry meat, infected eggs, extensive spread of Foot and Mouth, unwise levels of antibiotic residues in end products (no point developing the problems of that here!). It is now considered normal to have to by bottled water due to excessive levels of nitrates. Is this correct and has how long is it sustainable? Those individuals, enterprises who are not grasping the nettle will find that they are forced to in the future. Beekeepers are a fantastic focal point, a prime figurehead for this development. We should all be doing what we can to support individuals who are trying to make a cleaner world. To move hives away from a toxin source is short termism - what happens if the molecule is applied on a wider scale and on other crops? What happens if the original molecule spawns a family of others with similar properties? Take the problem with Imidacloprid - a well documented affair having two totally opposed sides, each claiming each is correct. I could move all my hives - to areas that are left as "clean" - but what crops are left! In my case, forest honey, except that there are clearings growing maize which has been treated with Gaucho. Move country - possible but not open to many. And why should a noble industry be chased into the recesses in the outback. I'm not the one causing the destruction. If things are possible for me - what about the next generation? Where are they going to set up? When it suits, the agricultural industry pats us on the back - for supplying one of the major links in food production via. pollination. Pity that once the result is achieved the thanks arrives as a dusting of poison. How many industries accepts this? If a farmer crop or animal suffered from a viral infection carried by bees - there would be no wringing of hands and saying " you should move because the beekeeper was here first" I've said it before and will continue to say it - we need a dedicated, respected group to work for recognition of the role of bees and one that delivers results - one that is supported by industry - beekeepers, packers, consumers et al. This will not come about by remaining quiet and no causing waves! Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Bee brushes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Doubtless all major bee supply houses monitor this List so I want to send a plea to them: Offer draftsman brushes with natural bristles. The standard one with nylon bristles are simply too harsh on the bees. If the former should cost a little more - why else would ones with nylon bristles be offered? - then give the customers a choice. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 10:32:03 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: History: BEE-L list members... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "Back in the old days" the BEE-L listserv software allowed us members to send a REVIEW BEE-L command to the server, which would then send back a file with the names of all of the people subscribed to the list. Once spamming came to the fore, this was disabled for pretty obvious reasons... I'm preparing to do a quantitative analysis on the 13 years, 89,000 postings, occupying just over 90Mb of BEE-L for a research project. Initially, I intend to simply investigate trends in the posting of messages - particularly relating to domain of origin. To help me in this, I'd really appreciate any of you out there who used to use the REVIEW BEE-L command, and who may have saved the output files, to forward a copy to me. Be sure to send it direct to me at nickw@beekeeping.co.nz rather than to the list... I'm hoping that if I can get enough copies, spanning enough of a time period, I can provide some more analysis of the data based on membership of the list, as well as the messages posted. I'd be happy to email with anyone one-on-one who has questions about what/how/why (well, I gotta do a research project for my master's degree, don't I?) I'm doing this... Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz (list member since 1992 or so - I remember everyone from Andy to Malibu what's his name!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:07:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "j.david clark" Subject: IMIDACLOPRIDS USE IN THE STATE OF MAINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello there , Apparently the North - Western region of the State of Maine is home to the production of potato . Industrial , commercial and family type growers are involved in the production of this commodity and no doubt the use of Imidacloprid and other similar Bayer products are used as an in ground Insecticide . The wild blueberry industry in that State use honey bees for pollinating this horticulture crop . pollination provision is supplied by local and out of State providers . Following pollination services , would some of the bees be taken to the potato growing areas to access the pastures as provided by rotation practices . Do we have any input to date from beekeepers involved in this instance as to poisoning and loss of colonies due to Imidacloprid . Thanking all for any conciderations , regards , David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 19:58:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: sprayers and pollen substitute Comments: To: pdillon@club-internet.fr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Peter & All, I feel compelled to respond and do wish you success with your situation! Peter wrote: To move hives away from a toxin source is short termism - what happens if the molecule is applied on a wider scale and on other crops? Never has happened before. At least not in the U.S. What happens if the original molecule spawns a family of others with similar properties? Again you could be right but I have never seen a pesticide cause what you are talking about. Take the problem with Imidacloprid - a well documented affair having two totally opposed sides, each claiming each is correct. Proof is a big problem with getting compensation for pesticide kills in the U.S.. Five beekeepers in Florida lost a big lawsuit over misquito spraying pesticide kills around Miami, Florida. The legal fees were around $250,000. Not only did they get deadouts they got the added expense of the legal battle . I could move all my hives - to areas that are left as "clean" - but what crops are left! In my case, forest honey, except that there are clearings growing maize which has been treated with Gaucho. Move country - possible but not open to many. And why should a noble industry be chased into the recesses in the outback. I'm not the one causing the destruction. The first lesson you learn in life is not everything is fair. I agree with the things you have said but what are the alternatives. When it suits, the agricultural industry pats us on the back - for supplying one of the major links in food production via. pollination. Pity that once the result is achieved the thanks arrives as a dusting of poison. Can I use the above and add your name and the date 2001 and put in a frame and put on the wall of my office? Profound statement which sums up the whole senario. Pesticide kills are reality in U.S. beekeeping. I've said it before and will continue to say it - we need a dedicated, respected group to work for recognition of the role of bees and one that delivers results - one that is supported by industry - beekeepers, packers, consumers et al. This will not come about by remaining quiet and no causing waves! We have got two excellent bee organizations in the U.S. and they do work for our best interests But as with all organizations the agendas are the agendas of the elected officials. Hope everything works out in France to your liking! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:50:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jeanne lee Subject: Fwd: I need some advice.............. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello.......I just walked out the front of my house and there was a gentleman from the village sitting in his car writing for the longest time....then he got out and walked up to me and said I understand you have beehives in your backyard. He said that he checked with the village and the village told him I could not have them. I told him that before I got them I called the village ( I did) and that they said there was nothing in there that stated I could not have them. I did not volunteer my address however........... He further stated that a neighbor complained that the bees were attacking their dog. He asked for my name and phone number and said he would get back to me. What should I do? I told him that they are honey bees and they are pollinators. And that I have a 6 foot fence around them so that they fly up high and do not bother any body. That was all that I could think of at that moment. Jeanne _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:45:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: IMIDACLOPRIDS USE IN THE STATE OF MAINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "j.david clark" wrote: > The wild blueberry industry in that State use honey bees for pollinating > this horticulture crop . pollination provision is supplied by local and > out of State providers . Following pollination services , > would some of the bees be taken to the potato growing areas to access > the pastures as provided by rotation practices . Do we have any input to > date from beekeepers involved in this instance as to poisoning and > loss of colonies due to Imidacloprid . The answer to both questions is no and no. There are in excess of 60,000 hives brought into Maine for blueberry pollination each year. Some go to raspberrys and some to cranberries after blueberries but most leave for other states. None that I know of go to the potato fields for any reason. As far as Gaucho, which is easier to spell than I-etc., I wrote an article for our State newsletter for everyone to report any bee problems in the potato area to the State bee Inspector, Tony Jadczak, probably the best in the country. If there is a problem, he will find it. I do believe that gaucho is a problem. I also believe that beekeepers lose hives to other causes and are quick to blame something other than their own poor management. I count myself in that group. It is easy to say resistant Varroa when I probably lost my last years hives to tracheal. Got complacent. Made it through fine this year with no loss and no change in my normal correct treatment, which included tracheal. I have a feeling that some of the reports that are coming in are what I experienced and not gaucho. My guess is that the potato gaucho will not be a problem for bees but there are many other applications that will affect our bees. If I were in Canada, I would be watching bee deaths in canola and sunflowers. But I doubt if we will see much from potatos, at least not on the scale or what we might see on other nectar crops. And we had best be careful on how loud we complain unless we have facts on our side. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 03:56:35 +0200 Reply-To: jtemp@xs4all.nl Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jan Tempelman Organization: Home sweet home Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The dutch queenrasing book " koniginnenteelt" , autors H. Velthuis & MJ Duchateau speeks about 34 C + or - 1 humidity must be not lower than 50 pictures of my home make incubator on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/Stoof.html and the old one on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/broedstoof.html pictures of themperature equipment on http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/Thermostaat.html 33 = 91,4 F 34 = 93,2 F 35 = 95 F 36 = 96,8 F regards, jant still the home of the drone trapping methode agains the varroa on: http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html Bob & Liz wrote: > Many beekeepers use 92 degrees F for the reason that this > provides a margin of safety against overheating which is far, far more > harmful -- even for a short time -- than slightly cooler than optimal > conditions. -- Met vriendelijke groet, -- Jan Jan Tempelman Kerkstraat 53 NL 7471 AG Goor xx.31.(0)547.275788 mobile: 06 10719917 -- http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/index3.html mailto:jtemp@xs4all.nl -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:20:40 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Bee brushes In-Reply-To: <200104140042.UAA12283@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, dan hendricks wrote: Offer draftsman brushes with natural bristles. > The standard one with nylon bristles are simply too harsh on the > bees. Hi Dan: This is an interesting contrast to my experience. I find that with the natural bristles, many bees are found stinging the bristles. With the artificial bristles, this does not occur. I have sought out the brushes with synthetic bristles. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:52:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice.............. Comments: To: jeannesarahlee@HOTMAIL.COM In-Reply-To: <200104140351.XAA17852@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Unhappy neighbors- not a good situation- you will likely have to move your bees unless you initiate a prompt damage control and public relations camaign. Keeping ones backyard bees a secret, so that nobody is even aware off them, let alone raising a fuss, is the best option. (The neighbors must be kept happy- all it takes is one kid with a can of wasp and hornet killer to wipe out your hive and ruin the equipment for re-use.) Your 6 foot fence was a great idea- how did this guy find out about them? From your neighbor? Talk to you neighbor with the dog- show genuine concern, and try to solve the problem by tracking down what bothering it. Proving that the dog is being attacked by yellowjackets, or hornets, not your bees, is rather hard, but can be done if that is indeed the case. A bee- suit and veil is great protection against yellowjackets and wasps, and if you find and destroy the nest, you will be changed from the villian into the neighborhood hero. Having a beekeeper around the neighborhood does have its uses- try to make that obvious to your neighbors. Are the bees perhaps being attracted to the dogs water dish? If so, and the neighbor is very nervous, move the bees immediately. (As soon as you can!) Getting bees to stop using a source of water is almost impossible once they get used to it, and the dog cannot be deprived of his water. Set up a good water source in your own back yard. (A pond or trickling fountain with water plants in it is ideal- the bees like to perch on a leaf while drinking. My bees favorites are water Lettuce and Papyrus.) Once that is set up, and the bees that remember the dogs water dish are dead, (a few weeks away, at least) you may be able to move the hive back in without further problems- just be sure that the bees have a more tempting and reliable water source than the dogs dish. I keep bees in urban settings. (My own and friends and relatives back yards.)- but I also have a rural bee yard, and if anyone complains, the backyard hives can be relocated within a day or two.) So far, the only complaint I recieved was at a time that I had no bees in my back yard- just empty equipment. I walked my neighbor back and showed them that the equipment was empty, and offered to help them spray the wasp or hornet nest, if they should find it. That said, I never heard anything more about it. (I think yellow jackets were being attracted to their yard during picnics.) Moving them for a year or so, and then quietly moving them back in after the fuss has died down is an option also (But only if things don't get blown into a furor.) Do you know someone a couple miles away who would be willing to have them for a season or two- My friends with gardens are eager to get a back yard hive to pollinate their fruits and vegetables.) Keep a stack of empty supers in the yard to show that the equipment is empty- just being stored. When the hives reappear, no one is likely to notice. The most important thing, now that your secret is out, is to make sure you are seen as cooperative and approachable. Solve problems, don't be seen as the cause of them. If things look like they are going to escalate, be sure and do the following: Get to your local library and check the village laws- most libraries have a book with the local zoning and regulations in it- ask your reference librarian. Be familiar with the actual Laws. Contact your local beekeeping organization- get them behind you. Be prepared to talk and make presentations at council meetings and the like- education is your best route here. They have likely fought battles like this before, and people from the association will be your best allies. If you do have to move your bees, they may be able to help you to find another spot, not too far away, to keep them. (Temporarily or permanently) You don't say where you are, but if you are in the American southwest, fear of africanized bees is a major problem- having records of where you purchase purbred queens and how often you reequeen is one of the best defences. It's far better to have gentle bees in the neigborhood than feral africanized bees. Even if things don't escalate, do get hold of your local beekeeping association- they really can help you out, as they will be most familiar with local conditions and rules. Most groups consider public education and relations as an important part of their purpose- They want to keep beekeeping legal as much as you do. Use the resources available in your area! Good luck- please keep us posted on your situation- I'd love to hear how it comes out! Ellen in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:32:12 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: sprayers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter Dillon's brief essay was right on. I've watched this discussion with interest, having been involved in lawsuits for control of environmental poisons as early as 1971. I'm happy to tell that the old doctrine that those who 'came to the nuisance' have lesser rights against poisoning (or other nuisance) is pretty much defunct, at least in Commonwealth courts. I have the impression it has receded far into USA legal history too. The bigger problem is burden of proof. If the legal system stacks its reasoning so that the complainant has the burden of proving that a particular chemical or radiation caused the damage complained of, in nearly all cases this can't be done (even to the civil-law standard of proof). Many nations have set up agencies which go thru a form of examining a chemical before registration, and thereafter imposing barriers to lawsuits. Improving the administrative law has accordingly been one aspect of action for control of environmental poisons such as pesticides. Progress has been patchy and in general unimpressive. Much scope remains for improving pre-registration tests. The case of GE crops is only the most luridly slack. Many chemicals can cause harm which is so delayed that no detectable residue remains in the carcass. This is true of most cancer-causing chemicals. The tired old smokescreen 'if used according to label' conceals many "off-label" uses, and legal systems have taken insufficient account of this fact. If beekeepers are to mount any effective action against preventable bee-poisoning, it should take account of these principles: 1 Identify a chemical that does remain detectable in the victims, and is known to cause at least one well-characterised type of harm. It will be most useful if 'on-label' uses have been the main cause. 2 Identify a jurisdiction that seems relatively ready to change statutory regulation of the chemical(s) in question. 3 Coordinate legislative initiatives with any civil suit or prosecution that may be brought in court. 4 Work on the old EDF pattern of a scientist/lawyer team, in which the scientists' judgement on priorities should be dominant. 5 Keep in touch with beekeepers in other jurisdictions who may be able to launch similar actions. I must add that I see little chance of such cooperation. The approach of some heavies on this list is among my reasons for pessimism. I have previously mentioned some of my qualifications to opine on such matters, to my astonishment, these facts evoked some startling jealous insults. Wouldn't it be better to proceed in the normal civilised way, taking advantage of informed opinion? R