From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:47 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDks18806 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:47 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDhJ12733 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDhJ12733@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0104C" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 204829 Lines: 4312 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 11:24:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pollen patties Yes, as Allen, Bill and others suggested, one should only use their own pollen, from healthy hives, to feed. While Allen warns of dangers even then, I have never had any difficulties and do not know of difficulties from any of the several I know who do as I. This includes one queen breeder who raised over 10,000 queens a year. Chalkbrood is a problem, as Allen suggests. Do consider using a trap that does not permit hive debris (and therefore chalkbrood) into the pollen. One such trap is sold as Sundance by American suppliers. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:38:45 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Imidacloprid on Clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob A green manure would take some harm out of the way of the bees but it = would take away 4/5 of our honey crop with it. Not working clover here would remove = the biggest financial insentive to keep bees on PEI. There are probably = more than 1000 potato farmers here and clover is grown as a hay or silage crop - not = just a soil conditioner. Almost no one here grows a green manure crop and = trying to get farmers to give up a cash crop for a ploughdown would be a hard sell. = This would not protect the bees from chemical movement into the wild = flowers along the field margins either. =20 Our weather this winter has been lots of snow on ground that is not = frozen. All this snow is melting now and the small brooks are not = rising at all. This means that the snow melt is going straight down into = the ground water. I cringe to think of the possibility of Imidacloprid = going into not only my drinking water but the water I need to make sugar = syrup for the bees. Maybe my worries are premature. Maybe there will = be no bees alive to feed. Beekeepers in Missouri should be on the lookout for Imidacloprid = poisoning as it is used on many crops. I'm not sure just what crops are grown in = your area but watch out if there is corn (both sweet and field), sugar beets, millet, rice, cereals, vegetables, sunflowers, and more. Remember, it's = not necessarily on the crop that's treated that problems will arise with the bees. It is also the succeeding crops. It's not known how many years = after a treatment the problem could persist. I expect soil type and weather conditions will affect this persistance. What I want to stress is the fact that I have kept bees around potatoes = for years without problems and now that Admire is being used I have big = problems. This chemical is different from any chemical used here = before. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob & Liz" To: Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: Re: bees don't visit potato blossoms > Hello Al & All, > Al wrote: > This is a good thing since so many very nasty insecticides, = fungicides, > and > herbicides are sprayed on potato fields. Imidacloprid, to my = knowledge, =3D > is the only in-furrow pesticide used here and it does not pose any obvious > problems until the clover rotation comes around in year 3. Then bees begin > to die...especially during the winter following the clover. > > Would a possible solution for the Clover problem be for the grower to plant > a green manure crop the bees don't work? > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > Odessa, Missouri > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:32:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice.............. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ellen & All, I agree with everything Ellen Has said and very good advice from a beekeeper keeping hives in a yard type setting. I will say there are cities which do have rules against keeping bees within the city limits. These are hard to by pass. Many cities in Florida have got these as migratory beekeepers move their bees close in to cities at certain times for the floral sources. Cities around Sanford, Florida have cut huge ditches in certain areas to prevent the entrance of bee trucks. Urban sprawl has stopped the use of many areas around cities. Yesterday when I pulled into a bee yard the owners truck blocked my entrance. I had been in the yard the day before and dequeened some hives and had talked to the owner. He knew I was comming back the next day. He came out to ask me about *Killer* bees as he had seen a program on TV about killer bees last month. I took the time to explain in detail and for him not to worry for now in Missouri. The part in the program about *killer* bees taking over the commercial hives was the question that was bothering him. I have had bees on his land for 25 years without incident. It is *possible* that the neighbor involved in the post saw the same program and is going to *nip* the hive situation *in the bud*. Also be prepared for *other* neighbors to come forward with their experiences if the complaining neighbor is popular in the neighborhood. Calling the authorities instead of approaching you personally sounds as if they mean business. Be prepared. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps when it comes to bees everyone is alergic( or so many say). The guy at the post office the other day had the lady clerk bring my queens to the counter because he was alergic. I guess my supplier will have to quit putting *queen Bee* on a box a foot long and 7 inches wide (to large for a fly swatter). So far all the employees but the male clerk know the box is full of queens and not one *big* bee. Many people believe keeping a hive of bees in the back yard is like keeping two pit bulls in the back yard. Always potential for a problem. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 12:03:34 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have lost the most bees this year than ever before and am trying to determine the cause. The sheltered yards survived better than others. Some tracheal mite losses but many were starved or died with honey nearby. Was it the winter, or was the meds of poor quality? I have not yet seen a pattern of loss that holds for all yards. I treated early with two apistan strips and a patty. Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chuck Wettergreen Subject: Imidacloprid use in the city of Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello from Chicago. New soon-to-be beekeeper here, when my bees arrive on April 24th. I've been reading with interest the use of Imidacloprid on potato crops and the problems associated with its use. The city of Chicago has had a 2-3 year problem with an Asian longhorn beetle infestation of hardwood trees. The beetle apparently arrived on some untreated packing crate material from China. The city has cut down thousands of trees in the past couple of years in an attempt to stop the infestation. Until recently there was no known insecticide which would kill the beetle. However just recently I read that they had found that Imidacloprid was "75% effective" against the Asian longhorn beetle. The city is undertaking a massive treatment program to try and contain the outbreak What effect this will have on Chicago and near-suburban beekeepers I don't know. I'm just happy that I live far west of the city. Just a data point. Chuck Wettergreen Geneva, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:03:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello All, I've just received my first package of bees, and the Master Beekeeper from our local beekeepers association was kind enough to assist me in making the transfer to the hive. Actually, he transferred the bees, and I stood and tried to be of some assistance to him. While we were transferring, the bees seemed to focus on the crown of my head, which is exactly where I spray minoxidil (Rogaine) twice a day. Admittedly, I was not wearing a veil, since we figured the bees would be more interested in getting out of the box and into a safe place like a hive body. This also happened on Thursday, while visiting another beekeeper's bee yard. The bee seemed to be attracted to the crown of my head. I'm not using the brand-name Rogaine, but rather a generic put out by Costco under the Kirkland label. Nonetheless, it's the same formula as the product put out by Upjohn. I don't know if there's a perfume additive to either of the products, but if so, that may be what attracts the bees. Looking at the label, it lists the ingredients as minoxidil 5%, alcohol 30% by volume, propylene glycol 50% by volume, and water. No mention of perfume at all. Thanks, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:36:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: I need some advice.............. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clearing and removal of feral hives is and important part of the community needs. Police, fire departments, bug spray companies (they won't kill honey bees for a little honey once a year and call them for yellow jacket removal), Schools for any programs that will need a display (Best use for some of the drones, teachers love the help, and student projects, Arbor day and city plantings, Master gardener educational programs) Science Centers, county fairs. One town that is very important for the pollination honey bees thorough the winter increases had a bill come up at city hall to get rid of the honey bees in the town. The city, which is beautiful with the flowers and trees bloom, told the folks that put the bill to the city hall to move somewhere else. The bees where there for years before and they were part of the beauty of the city. I also help in any community food programs, I never give a lot of honey but yard rent is important to me for the yard owner protection of my bees. You will find that a simple washing of the hands and face in honey to get rid of excessive oil as a demonstration can change a group to your best friend. This will make the glass rim sing(hoefully to save your bees). Your community leaders, ministers, school administrative people, are a once 8 oz bear of honey? They will remember your bees forever. Keeping bees in the city is hard for people spray to kill everything. Yellow lead paint will show up in wax or green wax from stuff left open in the city. This is what you can see and I am sure the honey will have confederate jasmine and other poisons. I keep my queen hive that I graft from at the house and any of the wild hives that I have to treat before putting them into the apiary. I have 1 hive that is at a small garden still zoned agriculture but in the city limits that produces some of the best blueberries, banana, blackberries, that are given to me by the farmer. I even get eggs. I almost forgot the Yellow and White corn. Good luck. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:17:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob I live in Wyoming in a high desert area which normally has a humidity much less than 60%, often around 15%. A pan of water in the bottom of the refrigerator used for incubating cells works great. The humidity runs between 60% and 70%. I light bulb, which is used as the heat source in the incubator, was placed directly above the pan of water as a test. The resulting humidity was 80% to 90%. No adverse affects or benefit to the cells were noted, but excessive condensation formed on the sides and ran out of the seals continually. Also use a temperature controller instead of a thermostat. They are accurate to less than 1 degree and have a remote probe that can be located where you want it. The temperature swing (6 degrees in the best thermostat and over 15 degrees in the average thermostat) can be avoided. They are electronically switched and don't have contact points with bimetal or barometric type activation. Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:02:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: THANK YOU ALL! Comments: To: BiologicalBeekeeping@egroups.com, IrishBeekeeping@listbot.com, kentbee-l@zbee.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope the "To" line doesn't offend those who object to cross-posting. These are the lists I subscribe to and I just want to say to you all that at this time last year year I wrote in my Diary: "So I have lots of gear and hardly any bees left, Damn, Damn, Damn" This year I have a lot more gear, but have lost no colonies (well, fingers crossed for 2 little hangers on). If I have any sense at all I will have a good season. My first real harvest beckons... So thank YOU all. Listowners, Webmasters, Engineers and of course Answerers. Those of you busy beekeepers, longtime hobbiests, experienced beefarmers and dedicated researchers who find the time to reply to queries that must often raise a rueful smile as you recall thinking "I won't do that again". Your work, your pictures and your words are valued, THANK YOU. John Sewell Starting his 3rd year with 14 colonies in Reading, England. Oilseed Rape, Field Beans, Heather. Mixed bees. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rick & All, Rick wrote: I have lost the most bees this year than ever before and am trying to determine the cause. The sheltered yards survived better than others. Some tracheal mite losses but many were starved or died with honey nearby. Was it the winter, or was the meds of poor quality? Probbably a combination of both. Take the time to examine closely your deadouts. Those will be your main clues. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:18:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? Spring has sprung, Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the Minoxidil is not working perhaps the bees are attracted to the glare :) Do you have to wear rubber gloves when you apply the Minoxodil.? Anyway here in the Northeast SE CT USA the bees have had a couple good flying days in a row and brood is expanding. Spring was late coming and the colonies seem very small. Perhaps as a result of our wet summer last year and my use of formic acid gel packs last fall. I switched colonies around to help equalize strength and am in the process of setting bait hives up for swarms. All of my losses from October to now total up at about 1/3 of the colonies as I sat upon my hands and my duff to not mollycoddle any weaklings. The majority of failures were in hives with purchased queens who were clearly marked. My splits will come from survivors and swarm cells. And I will start to weed out old and poorly shaped brood combs. Listening to a radio program today on WOR AM they discussed the Asian Long Horned Beetle and are using an injection of Imidacloprid to treat trees in the areas that have shown infestation in both NYC and Chicago. Maples especially,so heads up. The project head is named Giddleman or something close to it in spelling and can be tracked down via the APHIS website www.aphis.usda.gov/oa/alb/alb.html if this affects anyone or through Ralph Snodsmiths website WWW.Gardenhotline.com What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim McGarry Subject: Re: Spring Losses I am in a similiar situation about 100 miles to the North of you in Essex, NY near Lake Champlain. I treated last fall for both mites in late August, had several new queens, and most of my colonies are in sheltered locations. Many deadouts with nearly full food chambers of honey, perhaps too much honey. I did find much deffication in the hives which I can attribute to the solid 4 plus months of temperatures not rising above 35 degress F. My gut feeling is the prolonged cold was the number one factor in the high mortality this year. Normally we can expect one or two spells of "warm" weather to allow the bees cleansing flights and regrouping form December to February.I usually only lose 3 or 4 colonies out of 30 to 40 each year. Oddly enough, 8 out of 36 came through in banner conditon with 9 others coming through the winter with only two or three frames of bees. I also wintered 30 4-frame nucs which appear to have done better overall than my established colonies. It won't be a difficult decision as to which quuens I will graft from this year. I do have a slight problem with excess honey from my losses. Any suggestions as to best utilize this excess? Ideally I would like to "convert" as much of this honey into drawn comb. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:12:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? In-Reply-To: <200104151033.GAA24955@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Propylene glycol (distinct from ethylene glycol) is sweet. It's possible that's what they're attracted to. On Sat, 14 Apr 2001, Joseph A. Clark wrote: > head, which is exactly where I spray minoxidil (Rogaine) twice a day. > label, it lists the ingredients as minoxidil 5%, alcohol 30% by volume, > propylene glycol 50% by volume, and water. No mention of perfume at > all. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:55:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? Spring has sprung, Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > Listening to a radio program today on WOR AM they discussed the Asian Long > Horned Beetle and are using an injection of Imidacloprid to treat trees in > the areas that have shown infestation in both NYC and Chicago. Maples > especially,so heads up. The project head is named Giddleman or something > close to it in spelling and can be tracked down via the APHIS website > www.aphis.usda.gov/oa/alb/alb.html if this affects anyone or through Ralph > Snodsmiths website WWW.Gardenhotline.com For those who do not know it, and I doubt if there are any on this list, Maples are one of the best and earliest sources of nectar for our bees in Maine and I expect elsewhere. So if we start to see bee kills in these areas, please contact your state inspector, if there is one, to get samples of the bees. Problem with this is the delicate state of the bees at this time of year. Cold enough to slow them down and the Imidacloprid could be too effective and they never get back to the hive. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Tim wrote: Many deadouts with nearly full food chambers of honey, perhaps too much honey. I did find much deffication in the hives which I can attribute to the solid 4 plus months of temperatures not rising above 35 degress F. My gut feeling is the prolonged cold was the number one factor in the high mortality this year. Normally we can expect one or two spells of "warm" weather to allow the bees cleansing flights and regrouping form December to February.I usually only lose 3 or 4 colonies out of 30 to 40 each year. Look closely at the deadouts and you should be able to figure out the source of the problem. Oddly enough, 8 out of 36 came through in banner conditon with 9 others coming through the winter with only two or three frames of bees. I also wintered 30 4-frame nucs which appear to have done better overall than my established colonies. Look carefully at these and see what was done differently on these as compared to the deadouts. Send a sample of the survivors in to be checked for tracheal mites and nosema. If tracheal mites or nosema were part of the problem then I would guess at least some level of problem should show up in the survivor sample. Any suggestions as to best utilize this excess? Ideally I would like to "convert" as much of this honey into drawn comb. Keep adding the honey frames to the outside of the expanding spring brood nest. The bees will empty the brood rearing area so the queen can lay eggs and move the honey to the honey area around other brood rearing frames . Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 16:11:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? Spring has sprung, Imidacloprid In-Reply-To: <200104151827.OAA00566@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:18 AM 4/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >If the Minoxidil is not working perhaps the bees are attracted to the glare :) >Do you have to wear rubber gloves when you apply the Minoxodil.? No glare (yet!)...that's the reason for the Minoxidil :) No, I don't use gloves. I spray it on with the attached sprayer from the bottle. It measures out 1cc for each 6 "spritzes". My guess is that the propylene glycol may be attracting them. I'm sure the bees don't need Minoxidil...besides, it's not formulated for females :). Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 23:30:43 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Imidacloprid use in the city of Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting to read about the infestation of trees with ALH beetle. Have seen somewhere in the distant past a reference where I think Imidacloprid was used to treat Elms with Dutch Elm Disease - shall dig it out and post the ref. After treatment, the trees were found to still contain the molecule a year after and did not require retreatment.(to be confirmed) So, if maple trees are to be treated (or any trees that are attractive to bees) then look out for intoxication - most probably sub-lethal intoxication. I can easily see the reasons for treating as a curative measure, one that is most probably going to be restricted in time and area. Just that any damage to bees should also be taken into account. It is the way that bees are considered dispensible that has got to change esp. when individuals are trying to make a living from them. Peter P.S.75% effective you say, sounds like they are not going to solve the problem with Imidacloprid either but should do the sales a good boost - usual story! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:41:27 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: formic acid : panty liners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i assure u this posting is in good taste & the interest of better = beekeeping ONLY. looking at the literature on applying formic acid as a treatment option = for varroa, tha application looks quite cumbersome with little bottles, = spacers, extra boxes, etc. then it dawned on me (while watching tv); why not apply the acid into = those super-slim women's panty liners they advertise, and because they = aren't supposed to leak they cld facilitate a slow release of gas over = the treatment period. just pop them on top of the topbars & let them go = to work!! the only possible downsides i cld think of were: the acid may "corrode" the panty liners the bees may eat the panty liners (like they do newspaper) does anyone else have any thoughts/experience on this idea? cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:31:56 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: grapefruit.... & other citrus smoke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable as i have a couple of grapefruit trees in my yard i am very attracted to = the grapefruit leaf smoke method to test for varroa. nonetheless, i also = have lemon, orange & tangelo trees in the yard & was wondering if they = cld be used for the same test in the same way. does anyone know why the = "literature" always talks abt grapefruit & not other forms of citrus? cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeanne said: > I just walked out the front of my house and there was a > gentleman from the village sitting in his car writing for the longest > time....then he got out and walked up to me and said I understand you have > beehives in your backyard. He said that he checked with the village and the > village told him I could not have them. I told him that before I got them I > called the village ( I did) and that they said there was nothing in there > that stated I could not have them. I did not volunteer my address > however........... If there is an actual law on the books that says "no beekeeping", he would have cited the specific ordinance. Why didn't he? Likely because there IS no such specific law. You would be amazed how creative people can be sometimes, reading a law against keeping "barnyard animals", and claiming that this means bees, largish dogs, hamsters, whatever animal they don't like. > He further stated that a neighbor complained that the bees were > attacking their dog. I would have said "Let's go right now, and take a look." "What? Reports of what may be a bee bothering a dog? Quick! To the Bee-mobile! Bee-Man To The Rescue!" Nothing better than addressing the issue at once with the (assumed impartial) civil servant in tow. You might have gotten lucky, and been able to hand the civil servant an actual dead yellowjacket for "further study and classification by experts". "I'm sorry Inspector Lestrade, but it appears that the victim was not attacked by a honeybee at all... Watson - look here... see the 2-foot long gash? Bees simply cannot slit a man open like that. It may be the Giant Rat of Sumatra..." "Holmes, you've done it again!" I'd suggest asking the civil servant to call you when and if the "bees" show up again. It is easy to capture a few with a butterfly net, and then show the neighbor that the flying object at issue is clearly a yellowjacket, bumblebee, wasp, or a low-flying Navy P3 Spy Plane on routine patrol over international waters. Of course, if they turn out to be honeybees, you will be honor bound to temporarily move your hives, as described in a prior posting. Clearly the water issue would be the one to address. > He asked for my name and phone number and said he would get back to me. You should have asked for his! If nothing else, you can ask pointed and repeated questions about the claimed "law against keeping bees". If nothing else, you can force him to admit his bluff/lie/whatever. If he is a real civil servant, he will likely drop the matter unless there are more complaints, so make sure that you provide a constant supply of water to your bees. There are several dog-water-dish gizmos that keep the water bowl full at all times, and connect to your garden hose spigot. One of these, equipped with tiny floating landing pads for the bees, might be just what you need. The closer to your hives, the better. > What should I do? I told him that they are honey bees and they are > pollinators. And that I have a 6 foot fence around them so that they fly up > high and do not bother any body. That was all that I could think of at that > moment. The problem here is that the neighbor complained to the village, rather than taking the matter up directly with you. Given that there can only be so many dogs in your area, I'd suggest doing some nosing around and asking around. If you can prove the exact type of insects that are "attacking" the dog to the dog's owners, you can likely nip the issue in the bud. You would get extra points for suggesting that they purchase a yellowjacket trap (I saw some at Lowes for $10 each). Recall that yellow jackets "look like bees" to most people at first glance, and most people do not want to look closely at a bee or yellowjacket to try to tell one from the other. Laws aside, most people can't tell one of God's creatures from another. I guess we need to hand out color "field guides". Mine would start with the basics: a) Bee b) Beet c) Beetle ...and, of course, break down the major headings (Honey Bee, Bumble Bee...) (Sugar Beet, Rutabaga...) (Paul, Ringo, John, George, VW...) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:30:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: SHB arrives in ST. Pete Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii After the news about the SHB in Florida hit the net I have been very careful about doing anything that would bring this new pest into my home yard. Being in an area where there are not many beekeepers I was hopping that this pest would not find me for a few years. Today when checking a hive that had swarmed I found three adults running around. Other hives showed one or two adults. Having just pulled supers from these hives last week I am pretty sure I have a good picture of the infestation. Since I am pretty isolated from other beekeepers (Varroa took out most of them and the last one I knew of in the area retired a few years ago) my bet is the beetle arrived from a non-beekeeping vector. The only contact this yard has had with the outside world in the last two years has been the state bee inspector and myself. I have yet to find a SHB in my remote yards so I doubt I carried them in. While it is possible the state inspector carried some in, I would doubt the likelyhood of them being a transport. This looks like a pest that is going to spread no matter what we do. I am making adjustments to deal with the new pest in town. Any thoughts are welcome. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 05:23:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Imidacloprid use in the city of Chicago Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Chuck and All: >Until recently there was no known insecticide which would kill the >beetle. However just recently >I read that they had found that Imidacloprid was "75% effective" >against the Asian longhorn beetle. >The city is undertaking a massive treatment program to try and contain >the outbreak What effect >this will have on Chicago and near-suburban beekeepers I don't know. A Reference: Sclar, D.C. and Cranshaw, W.S.; 1996; Journal of Environmental Horticulture 14 (1) Injections of Imidaclopride in the soil around the feet of Elms are particularly effective against principal pests (beetles and Elm aphids). The persistence is particularly long, such that the pests are under control, even in the following season wherever the treatment has taken place. end of abstract quote If the hardwood trees are types where bees work the pollen, then it could it be big problem. If not (like elms, I *think*) then unless there are flowering weeds under them, it might not be a problem. The quote is interesting because it shows that the chemical is persistent for years. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 22:37:06 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: formic acid : panty liners In-Reply-To: <200104160414.AAA15351@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Formic acid dissolves Nylon. We use a Formic acid solution to dissolve nylon when performing fiber content analysis in the Textile Laboratory where I work. Polyester, acrylic, cotton and rayon and most other fibers are not dissolved by Formic acid, so unless they are using nylon in the absorbent pads, they probably won't be damaged to the point of falling apart. Nylon is a relatively expensive fiber- Polyester is much cheaper and softer. Most non-woven textiles are made from polyester for this reason. (I think its unlikely that nylon is used in the pads, but not impossible.) So, I'd say you are probably safe in trying these pads out as a formic acid dispenser. The non- woven (And probably) polyester shells may be tough enough to stand up to bee mandibles for the time of treatment. The inside material, if they do get to it, is usually rayon fibers, and an absorbent gel similar to that used in diapers, diaper doublers (Now thres another product to explore if the capacity of pads is not large enough.) and the commercially prepared Formic Acid treatment packs. They'll just carry it out of the hive if they manage to get thru the outside layers. That said, and having worked with Formic acid in the lab, with Fume Hoods and full protective equipment at my disposal, It's not something I'd want to play around with at home. It's stinky, smelly stuff, and while it is miscible in water, it does not dissolve readily in water. Thus we use acetone to rinse and clean the Formic acid off of our samples, and to make sure that our glasswear is clean. Residue left behind concentrates as it dries and becomes even more corrosive than the diluted solution. I'll leave mixing up formic acid treatments to others. Ellen Mark wrote; why not apply the acid into = those super-slim women's panty liners they advertise, and because they = aren't supposed to leak they cld facilitate a slow release of gas over = the treatment period. just pop them on top of the topbars & let them go = to work!! the only possible downsides i cld think of were: the acid may "corrode" the panty liners the bees may eat the panty liners (like they do newspaper) does anyone else have any thoughts/experience on this idea? cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 01:38:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice I have no experience with keeping bees in town but here in the hinterlands everyone keeps a couple of broken wine bottles in the corner of their yard. That way if you have to shoot the neighbour's dog for eating your chickens and the neighbour drops over to enquire what all the gun fire was about you can point to the wine bottles and say "target practice". Hope this helps. Rover P.S. If you're a dog lover pretend I said cat. If you're a cat lover remember I said dog. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:31:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why is it that mites have grown quickly resistant to Apistan but the bacteria causing foulbrood have been slow to resist terra treatment? Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 11:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid on Clover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Al & All, Al wrote: A green manure would take some harm out of the way of the bees but it would take away 4/5 of our honey crop with it. I missunderstood your post. I thought you only had problems with Clover in the year the Clover followed potatoes which had had Imidacloprid used. Bees do not work crown vetch as used in roadside plantings by the road department in our area and makes a excellent green manure crop. The state uses the crown vetch because the seed is cheap. I am told the crown vetch is worked by the bees in Iowa so the crown vetch would have to be experimented with. Hairy Vetch is worked by the bees in our area. Not working clover here would remove the biggest financial insentive to keep bees on PEI. I am finding it hard to find any *financial insentive* to beekeeping these days. I officially retired in the spring of 1998. I cringe to think of the possibility of Imidacloprid = going into not only my drinking water but the water I need to make sugar syrup for the bees. Maybe my worries are premature. Maybe there will be no bees alive to feed. The U.S. water supply is of concern to us all. Beekeepers in Missouri should be on the lookout for Imidacloprid poisoning as it is used on many crops. I'm not sure just what crops are grown in your area but watch out if there is corn (both sweet and field), sugar beets, millet, rice, cereals, vegetables, sunflowers, and more. Remember, it's not necessarily on the crop that's treated that problems will arise with the bees. It is also the succeeding crops. It's not known how many years after a treatment the problem could persist. Many beekeeper have asked me for advice on the above subject. Here is my advice and you can take the advice or consider the source. Hobby beekeepers can always order packages and keep bees and try to enjoy the hobby and live with the problems. Commercial beekeepers will have to relocate if the EPA does not remove Imidacloprid from the market. I have got enough real problems to solve everyday to worry about problems which are not problems yet. I personally have not seen any Imidacloprid damage yet in my yards and I know Goucho is in use in our area. I have been in contact with the *powers that be* in our area about Imidacloprid with no help. I have been hung up on. Passed to over four different government offices. Told to call back. Told I would be called back. The situation remains the same. Without proof of damage Imidacloprid remains on the market. I will scream louder when I see damage. I personally know of no other beekeeper in our area which has tried to voice his fears to Missouri state people like I have. Many beekeepers are seeing huge losses in Missouri this spring. I have not. Maybe some of the loss is do to Imidacloprid and I have only been lucky. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:56:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Bill and All: >For those who do not know it, and I doubt if there are any on this list, >Maples are one of the best and earliest sources of nectar for our bees >in Maine and I expect elsewhere. So if we start to see bee kills in >these areas, please contact your state inspector, if there is one, to >get samples of the bees. The problem is that imidacloprid is metabolized in the bee and most can not be detected after four hours. So sampling the bees is not effective. The place that is a good place to look is freshly gathered maple pollen from a pollen trap on a hive. Samples should be frozen and *PROTECTED FROM SUNLIGHT*. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice In-Reply-To: <200104160414.AAA15209@listserv.albany.edu>; from jfischer@supercollider.com on Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 10:53:57PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 10:53:57PM -0400, James Fischer wrote: > Jeanne said: > > > I just walked out the front of my house and there was a > > gentleman from the village sitting in his car writing for the longest > > time....then he got out and walked up to me and said I understand you have > > beehives in your backyard. He said that he checked with the village and the > > village told him I could not have them. I told him that before I got them I > > called the village ( I did) and that they said there was nothing in there > > that stated I could not have them. I did not volunteer my address > > however........... > > If there is an actual law on the books that says "no beekeeping", he > would have cited the specific ordinance. Why didn't he? Likely > because there IS no such specific law. > > You would be amazed how creative people can be sometimes, reading a > law against keeping "barnyard animals", and claiming that this means > bees, largish dogs, hamsters, whatever animal they don't like. > This is what got me in trouble when I had a hive visible from the road. A "concerned citizen" called the inspectors and he came out to take a look. He informed me that there was no law against keeping bees but since teir was a complaint could write me up under a nuciance law. In a rather productive converstation I explained that the bees had been inspected by the state to ensure that they were safe and then offered to move the bees out of view. The fact that the bees had been inspected by a state agency gave the city guy an "out" as a higher authority said things were OK. Two weeks later all was in order and I have not had another problem. One other tip. Don't work your bees dressed in full suits with enought smoke to look like a forest fire. I was rather inexperianced before this episode and looking back I can see what the neighbors saw: a guy in full protection with plumes of smoke fighting a cloud of angry bees. Now I have a nice white jacket and veil (or saftey glasses and my hat) with short pants. I do not think I look like I am in a combat zone any more. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid use in the city of Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Stan & All, Stan wrote: If the hardwood trees are types where bees work the pollen, then it could it be big problem. If not (like elms, I *think*) then unless there are flowering weeds under them, it might not be a problem. The quote is interesting because it shows that the chemical is persistent for years. The Elms are very popular to the bees for pollen(American Honey Plants pg. 141) Sorry Stan but bees gather pollen from Elm and also nectar from Ulmus Parvifolia and Ulmus alata (American Bee Journal Jan. 1947) Possibly they gather some nectar from other elm but these two above have been noted for producing a surplus. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 07:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice.............. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Jeanne asks about help for beekeeping in an urban/suburban situation. Ellen offered some very good comments including: "Are the bees perhaps being attracted to the dogs water dish? If so, and the neighbor is very nervous, move the bees immediately. (As soon as you can!) Getting bees to stop using a source of water is almost impossible once they get used to it, and the dog cannot be deprived of his water. Set up a good water source in your own back yard. (A pond or trickling fountain with water plants in it is ideal- the bees like to perch on a leaf while drinking. My bees favorites are water Lettuce and Papyrus.) Once that is set up, and the bees that remember the dogs water dish are dead, (a few weeks away, at least) you may be able to move the hive back in without further problems- just be sure that the bees have a more tempting and reliable water source than the dogs dish." There is one way to discourage bees from visiting the water dish or other areas where they are not wanted that sometimes works but could be worth a try. Bees strongly dislike the smell or almond extract and adding a little to the water in the dish will discourage them from gathering water there. Now as Ellen said you must supply them with another source of water nearby. I use a chicken waterer with a sponge in the tray set near the hives in my suburban yard. Most complaints that I get regarding honey bees are due to the bees gathering water where they are not wanted. The almond extract trick has helped in a couple of cases where bees were gathering water at a stock tank that and the horses would not approach the water so give it a try. FWIW Good luck. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:17:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by buzzybee@CAPITAL.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=7A4152CA) (63 lines) ------------------- From: "huestis" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Spring Losses Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:01:35 -0700 Hi Rick, I believe I live a wee bit above you in Crown Point, NY. I am seeing the same thing out of my use to be 45 colonies. One yard or 20 all lost except 6. Used apistan and apicure just like the label says. In my yard in Ticonderoga out of 26 lost 5. I don't think the med's were poor quality. Michael Palmer told me on sci.agri. newsgroup that we have apistan resistant mites here from the Carolinas. This winter wasn't unusually cold but very long as I still have 15+ inches of snow at my home yard(the most loss). Carniolan colonies are doing very well and colonies in 3 deep arrangement the best. Have forty queens coming next week. Not sure if I'll be able to split enough to make up loss this early to use all the queens. How long can I hold them in battery box? Hope you did better than me Clay ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Green To: Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: Spring Losses > I have lost the most bees this year than ever before and am trying to > determine the cause. The sheltered yards survived better than others. Some > tracheal mite losses but many were starved or died with honey nearby. Was it > the winter, or was the meds of poor quality? I have not yet seen a pattern > of loss that holds for all yards. I treated early with two apistan strips > and a patty. > > Contact me at: > Rick Green > 8 Hickory Grove Lane > Ballston Lake, NY 12019 > (518) 384-2539 > Gothoney@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Stan & All, Stan wrote: The problem is that imidacloprid is metabolized in the bee and most can not be detected after four hours. This IS the reason why proving the Imidacloprid is the cause of death is so very hard. No * smoking gun*! My brother ( lawyer) says beekeepers will have a hard time proving their case IF the chemical companies chose to fight. Stan wrote: So sampling the bees is not effective. The place that is a good place to look is freshly gathered maple pollen from a pollen trap on a hive. Samples should be frozen and *PROTECTED FROM SUNLIGHT*. We need a bit more information here. Water tests alone for Imidacloprid are expensive. Approx $100 per test plus shipping to Columbia, Missouri. Is there a lab testing pollen in the U.S. for Imidacloprid? If so what are the costs? Can we send suspect samples to the EPA for free testing? I wonder if state bee inspectors could be provided the equipment to test the pollen? I wonder if the government bee labs could not test the pollen for Imidacloprid? Usually these solutions happen with time BUT usually after a huge number of hives have been lost. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:58:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: rtaylor421 Subject: Need pollination assistance information MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This year in Coastal South Carolina it has been a very wet and cold spring. Six hives of bees were placed in a strawberry field prior to March 1st. At that time there were very few strawberry blossums. Since the 1st we have had about 2 weeks of very cold days and some rain. The patch has not produced as in other years and the grower thinks he has partial pollination. During this time the Blueberry and early peaches were also blossuming. The early peaches were lost due to hard freezes. Any thoughts about how much of a strawberry fields get pollinated by honey bees or results of problems such as this. Thanks Ron Taylor Cottageville SC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:50:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Stan wrote: > So sampling the bees is not effective. The place that is a good place to > look is freshly gathered maple pollen from a pollen trap on a hive. > Samples should be frozen and *PROTECTED FROM SUNLIGHT*. Thanks for the info. However you should still sample the bees just to rule out anything else. One problem we face is that there were losses before gaucho that were difficult to determine, as is apparent even from recent posts. My concern is that Gaucho will be the reason for any loss when it may have nothing to do with the loss. If we are going to do this right, first find out the reason for the colony deaths. For that, get the experts in. Problem with that is that some beekeepers are "experts" and do not need outsiders looking at their hives and bee management. It cannot be them so it has to be gaucho. I am sure this is happening already. Bayer will send in experts. You might want to check out their webpage to see what we will be up against. http://www.bayer-agro.com/index.cfm?PAGE_ID=91 Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, To take the legal issue a step further and use recent pesticide legal battles for reference. The chemical companies will try to prove *reasonable doubt*. Example: Did not these hives have some level of varroa mite infestation? Beekeeper answer- yes Did not these hives have some level of tracheal mite infestation? Beekeeper answer- yes The lawyers would then show through USDA records how deadly these two mites can be. Could not these hives have died from mites and not Imidacloprid? 40-50 years ago the only other posssible death cause was AFB which was easy to see AND PROVE. Even then actual pesticide blame was hard to prove. The two examples above are only the tip of the iceberg chemical company lawyers would use to try and prove Imidacloprid is not responsible for the problem. Also we may only see a serious weakening of the hives and not colony death. In the *old days* you could not collect without hive kill. In the *old days* the government repaid beekeepers for losses at around $18 per hive. Replacement cost for the bees. Better than no reinbursement at all but still you lost the hives pollination and honey gathering for the season in most cases. I believe the government reinbursement program was last in effect around 1979 for a short while and is NOT in effect today. I could be wrong about this and if the program is still in effect in your area of the U.S. please correct me. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Need pollination assistance information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron, Ron wrote: Six hives of bees were placed in a strawberry field prior to March 1st. At that time there were very few strawberry blossums. Since the 1st we have had about 2 weeks of very cold days and some rain. The patch has not produced as in other years and the grower thinks he has partial pollination. During this time the Blueberry and early peaches were also blossuming. The early peaches were lost due to hard freezes. Any thoughts about how much of a strawberry fields get pollinated by honey bees or results of problems such as this. The days the bees can fly are the only days to count for polination. In certain years we have only had a couple days the bees have been able to work the Apple blossoms and the Apples got polinated. You didn't say how big the field was you were trying to polinate so can't really say if 6 hives are enough. I will say anytime you have got more than one bloom going on at the same time you can get a polination problem. Bees prefer one source over the other. The solution is to provide extra hives if there is any doubt. Bees prefer Apple blooms over Pear blooms because of the sugar content of the nectar. Our Apple orchards mow ground cover blooms under the trees prior to setting the hives to encourage the bees to work the Apple blossoms and not the clover and dandelions. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:04:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Jaquie Bunse." Subject: Re: formic acid : panty liners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That said, and having worked with Formic acid in the lab, with Fume Hoods and full protective equipment at my disposal, It's not something I'd want to play around with at home. It's stinky, smelly stuff, and while it is miscible in water, it does not dissolve readily in water. Thus we use acetone to rinse and clean the Formic acid off of our samples, and to make sure that our glasswear is clean. Residue left behind concentrates as it dries and becomes even more corrosive than the diluted solution. In Canada we have been using Formic Acid treatments for HBTM and varroa for some years. We purchase it from the beekeeping supplier in the recommended 65% formulation so no mixing. It is recommended that we work with it after chilling it in a refrigerator or keep it in a very cool place, and always working outdoors or in a well-ventilated place. We wear acid-proof rubber gloves and apron, with protective footwear to prevent burns. A respirator is also recommended. After a couple of treatments, this doesn't seem onerous at all, just routine. We can purchase "Mite Wipes", a little absorbent pad similar to the pads in meat trays from the grocery store. They have a solid plastic side, and a perforated side, which is placed face down onto the top bars at the back of the super after absorbing the prescribed amount of formic acid. These pads can be "charged" with acid in a plastic pail or container with an air-tight lid. Placing the required number of pads in the pail, then adding the appropriate amount of acid (chilled so it won't evaporate quickly into your face) close it up and keep it cold until you place it on the hives. An old styrofoam cooler with a freezer pack works well while you drive to your bee yard. There are many absorbent materials used such as paper towel, napkins, newspaper in ziplock bags with "windows" cut in the plastic for evaporation. Some meat departments in supermarkets will sell the absorbent meat pads, and they may be cheaper, but work as well. After about 5 years of dealing with HBTM at levels of between 20% down to a low level of about 4% for two years, I dissected the usual sample this spring and found none. There is an economic threshold of 10 mites per sample approx. where studies have shown that the bees will still build up in spring, will still produce a crop. I will not treat with FA this spring, but will test again after the honey is harvested to determine the need to treat for anything but varroa in the fall. One advantage of the use of FA is that if alternated with Apistan to treat for varroa it will ensure several generations of varroa not exposed to fluvalinate and prolong the period of efficacy of Apistan against varroa. It is not quite as effective against varroa as Apistan, but there is still that economic threshold of infestation that the bees can likely live with. Sampling for varroa levels in the colonies will determine your need to treat. Cheers Jaquie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:12:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: formic acid : panty liners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been using formic acid for several years but I would not use this method since, in my opinion, it is too uncontrolled. From Dr Medhat Nasr's research presentations of his research, I understand that the concentration of the formic acid fumes in the hive is quite critical. It must be strong enough to kill the mites yet not strong enough to harm the bees. Dr Medhat's original work used an adsorbent medium (Homasote board) of a certain size within a plastic bag with tiny holes (Ziploc's vegetable bag for fridge storage). Also important are: distances from frames and hive top; size and placement of hive openings during treatment, ambient temperature outside hive, and quantity of acid in the pad. He has given out printed instructions with dimensions for beekeepers to follow his work and there are pre made products on the market. I gather that a cheaper or less troublesome way of applying formic acid is being sought and I do not doubt that these liners could be used as the adsorbent medium to hold the acid. However it would take much research and sensitive equipment to determine how to achieve the required concentration with them. If of enough interest, I could dig out more information and references if of interest and post to the list but it would be better coming from Dr Nasr himself. Alternatively you can e-mail me offline at georgefielder@aol.com since I do make my own following Dr Medhat's original work. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:12:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Imidacloprid or Disease - that is the question! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, What you say regarding the "expert" beekeepers is very true - it is vital that all reasonable doubt of damage is being caused by other factors is either removed or taken in to account. Here in France many hives that have "suffered" from "Gaucho" would have died anyway due to poor treatment against V.j. and it is too easy to blame an outside factor beyond the beekeepers control. But at the same time a pesticide hit does not help the overall health of a colony - esp. if the toxin delivers a sub-lethal effect. E.F.B. is well known to raise its ugly head when colonies have or are under stress and then conversely it is the Agro-chemical firms who fall into the trap. They then have the tendency to blame the disease for the problems and not the toxin. So as you say - "experts" won't wish for outsiders to look in to the products. It can't be them so it has to be the "beekeeper"! Neither side can have it both ways as I am hoping that you agree. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 22:04:56 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Vertical Take-off - Horizontal Landing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Watching one of the colonies hard at work today in our garden, it struck me that the pattern of flight take off and landing was very structured. Virtually all take-offs were from the vertical front face of the hive. The bees appeared, upside down from the upper edge of the hive entrance,(I guess a convenient point of exit if you've just descended from a frame), walked 1 or 2 cm. (3/8" to 3/4") up the outside of the front, vertical hive face and took off ,head uppermost at about 45Deg upwards. Virtually all pollen laden homecomers came in and landed on the horizontal lower edge (floor edge) of the entrance (a few preferred landing on the vertical face, again head uppermost before turning and walking in, again upside down under the upper edge of the entrance). This system of vertical face take-offs and horizontal landings worked very well since it seemed to avoid all air near misses between outgoing and incoming traffic. It did make me wonder if there is any point in having a projecting landing board, since the bees seem completely oblivious to the normal beekeeper concepts of "right way up" or "horizontal faces better than vertical" Are horizontal landing boards just a foible of beekeepers and beehive designers? Alan Riach Edinburgh-Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:07:33 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But I'm not necessarily saying that your bees died from resistant mites. I'm finding a 15% loss, with with another 10% weak. I think I'm seeing tracheal mite damage coupled with dysentary. The windy yards didn't get the early cleansing flights that the sheltered yards did. Lots of "boiled out" bees and evidence of dysentary in these yards. All the yards must have tracheal mites, but only the ones with dysentary problems are in poor shape. I've often wondered if the tracheal mite stress causes dysentary, or dysentary makes the tracheal mite problem worse. Mike Aaron Morris wrote: > This message was originally submitted by buzzybee@CAPITAL.NET to the BEE-L > list > at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. Hi Rick, > > I believe I live a wee bit above you in Crown Point, NY. I am seeing the > same thing out of my use to be 45 colonies. One yard or 20 all lost except > 6. Used apistan and apicure just like the label says. In my yard in > Ticonderoga out of 26 lost 5. I don't think the med's were poor quality. > Michael Palmer told me on sci.agri. newsgroup that we have apistan resistant > mites here from the Carolinas. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:54:49 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Speaking from my experience as a long-time anti-pesticide activist, it will be a long haul to get rid of imidacloprid in Canada. Canada does not have a history of banning individual pesticides unless the US does so first. We rely on American research, as well as possible trade repercussions from using pesticides banned in the US. And finding evidence of harm does not mean a pesticide will be banned immediately or even in years to come. Take carbofuran for example (manufactured by Bayer, by the way). It's an insecticide that every major ornithological association in North America wants banned because it kills birds. Environment Canada (similar to the US EPA) has a scientist considered 'the' expert on this insecticide. He has research proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that this stuff kills birds by the millions. The US Fish and Wildlife Service does too, and has called for a ban for years. They have lobbied the federal governments in both countries and made presentations to government at the regular re-registration reviews for carbofuran. National and local environmental groups have also campaigned hard against this insecticide. After years and years the granular form is finally banned but the spray is still allowed and is not any less harmful. Here are a few facts about human exposure in the US: - a federal study (1988-1994) sampled 900 adult volunteers from all over the country. Farm families were not specifically examined. Only one dozen pesticdes that readily metabolize and are eliminated in urine could be measured. Metabolites of 1 organophosphate insecticide were detected in 82% of the people, and metabolites of another OP insecticide detected in 42% of them. Pentachlorophenol, a wood preservative, was detected in 64% of the people. A metabolite of a carcinogenic pesticide used in mothballs and toilet deodorizers was detected in 98% of the people. There are other studies showing our blood and urine contain agricultural pesticides. But these pesticides continue to be used. The US maintains a list of pesticides known to cause cancer - they're still on the market. Collecting evidence is one thing - and not an easy or inexpensive thing. But banning an individual pesticide? You have to be prepared for a long battle. The way the game works is after years of campaigning by environmental groups and others, the pesticides are eventually banned. This is happening now in the US with a review of many 'older' pesticides - they're being phased out. But they're being replaced by what the pesticide companies advertise as 'low-dose, safer' pesticides - like imidacloprid. So the game continues. We fight and protest and attempt to gather evidence for many more years and then we see some more bans. Meanwhile the pesticide industry brings a new and 'even more safe' generation of poisons on the market. The answer, of course, is to fight for organic agriculture and the elimination of pesticides entirely. The US and Canada lag far behind other countries - like New Zealand, Australia, the UK, and many in Europe - in this regard. Beekeepers should find allies. In the US, the North-West Coaltion for Alternatives to Pesticides (NCAP) and the Pesticide Action Network (PANNA) would be good. PANNA has already included an article about the 'Forgotten Pollinators Campaign' in their monthly publication (December 1996). Beekeepers should encourage them to cover the imidacloprid and bees issue. The latest issue of NCAP's magazine has a chemical profile on imidacloprid. They cover a different pesticde in each issue. Beekeeprs should contact the Forgotten Pollinators people (Gary Nabhan and Stephen Buchmann)at the Arizon-Sonora Desert Museum in Tuscon, Arizona. Seek out local environmental and organic food/agriculture groups and make presentations to them. Find graduate students looking to do some research and tell them about the opportunities around bees and imidacloprid. Get the media involved. Find out how to make other people care. Honey bees won't be at the top of everyone's list of worries so combine different angles: loss of native pollinators is a big one (read Our Forgotten Pollinators) because of wide-reaching ecological repercussions, groundwater contaimation, soil contamination, stream pollution from runoff, the systemic nature of the insecticide and potential for food residues. This is where coalitions come in handy - you can fight the thing on many levels so that just about everyone will have a reason to care. Emphasize the Precautionary Principle which says it isn't necessary to have all the scientific evidence in, in order to stop a practice or product when there is some limited evidence of harm. Don't let people tell you that you must have irrefutable proof. In a court of law that proof may never be enough when up against the corporations and government. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rick & All, Rick wrote: Why is it that mites have grown quickly resistant to Apistan but the bacteria causing foulbrood have been slow to resist terra treatment? Darwin couldn't have found a better example of natural selection than is provided by the way the mechanism of resistance operates. At this point we are not quite sure why the resistant bacteria to foulbrood has happened and several theories abound. We do know why the resistance to Fluvalinate. Quote from *Silent Spring* by Rachel Carson pg. 273 "Inevitably it follows that intensive spraying with powerful chemicals only makes worse the problem it was designed to solve. After a few generations , instead of a mixed population of strong and weak insects, there results a population consisting ENTIRELY of tough resistant strains." The chemical industry is perhaps understandably loath to face up to the unpleasant facts of insect resistance. In 1959 ,with more than 100 major insects showing definite resistance to chemicals, one of the LEADING journals in the field of agriculture chemistry spoke of imagined insect resistance. A review of my resistance posts from last year quoting *The Varroa Handbook* will show varroa is now resistant (in most areas of the world) to the most effective chemicals we had in the world. Over 100 chemicals had shown a certain degree of Varroa control when the book was written in 1989. Varroa will now (as Rachel Carson says) become harder to control with chemicals. The stronger the chemical (98% control) the quicker the resistance. Many insects were resistant to DDT in 6 years. Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: KEITH B.FORSYTH Subject: Re: formic acid : panty liners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Further to Jaquie Bunsen's comments. The use of Mite-wipe pads and Mite-away (single application) formic acid treatments is the result of the research work done by Dr. Medhat Nasr of the Ontario Beekeepers Assoc.. This is part of his overall Integrated Pest Management Programme. http://www.ontariobee.com/7_hive/default.htm Further info: Mite-away email riverval@kos.net Mite-wipe email dbryans@excelco.on.ca Keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:13:21 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Vertical Take-off - Horizontal Landing In-Reply-To: <200104170426.AAA25275@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Alan: I have built some open screened bottom boards in the last couple of years that have no projecting horizontal ledge. The bees seem to function perfectly well without it. On Mon, 16 Apr 2001, Alan Riach wrote: > It did make me wonder if there is any point in having a projecting > landing board, since the bees seem completely oblivious to the normal > beekeeper concepts of "right way up" or "horizontal faces better than > vertical" Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:04:23 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & All I realize that the wheels of change turn slowly especially when a chemical company is reaping big bucks and as you wrote *solutions happen with time BUT usually after a hugh number of hives have been lost.* Then I guess solutions are at hand because the problem has been evident for about 6 years and also about 300,000 hives have been lost. Or does time and losses in another country not count? I suggest that Americans not take the "It doesn't concern me until I see my own bees are dead" approach. Remember what the fellow said as he passed the 25th floor falling from the roof of a fifty story building. "So far so good"! It may be a short lived security. I enjoy your entries, Bob. Big Al PEI, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob & Liz" To: Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Imidacloprid > Hello Stan & All, > Stan wrote: > The problem is that imidacloprid is metabolized in the bee and most can not > be detected after four hours. > This IS the reason why proving the Imidacloprid is the cause of death is so > very hard. No * smoking gun*! My brother ( lawyer) says beekeepers will > have a hard time proving their case IF the chemical companies chose to > fight. > Stan wrote: > So sampling the bees is not effective. The place that is a good place to > look is freshly gathered maple pollen from a pollen trap on a hive. > Samples should be frozen and *PROTECTED FROM SUNLIGHT*. > > We need a bit more information here. Water tests alone for Imidacloprid are > expensive. Approx $100 per test plus shipping to Columbia, Missouri. Is > there a lab testing pollen in the U.S. for Imidacloprid? If so what are the > costs? Can we send suspect samples to the EPA for free testing? I wonder > if state bee inspectors could be provided the equipment to test the pollen? > I wonder if the government bee labs could not test the pollen for > Imidacloprid? > Usually these solutions happen with time BUT usually after a huge number of > hives have been lost. > Bob > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a prior posting, I said: > If there is an actual law on the books that says "no beekeeping", he > would have cited the specific ordinance. Why didn't he? Likely > because there IS no such specific law. > You would be amazed how creative people can be sometimes, reading a > law against keeping "barnyard animals", and claiming that this means > bees, largish dogs, hamsters, whatever animal they don't like. In a subsequent off-list e-mail, a person who I assume wishes to remain nameless reminded me that some subdivisions have deed restrictions that prohibit "livestock". (I assume that towns and villages would have similar regulations.) This is a classic example! No one should tolerate this sort of wordplay and fuzzy thinking for even a moment. Look up "livestock" in any dictionary, and you will see that it describes DOMESTICATED animals. Bees are clearly not "domesticated" in any way, and therefore do not meet the basic definition of "livestock". While beekeepers certainly provide them with hives, and attempt to "manage" them as best they can, no one can claim to have "domesticated" bees. The only difference between "feral" bees and "managed" bees is nothing more than their location. If I find and capture a swarm from the woods, and place the swarm in a hive, I have not changed the bees at all. I certainly have not somehow "domesticated" them. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:05:53 -0400 Reply-To: "Keith B. Forsyth" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Keith B. Forsyth" Organization: KEITH B.FORSYTH Subject: Re: formic acid : panty liners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi: Oops. Sorry for the misspelling of Jaquie's name. It should read Jaquie Bunse. I hit the wrong button in the spell check. Keith ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 02:18:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Is Minoxidil an Attractant? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe, Propylene glycol is a sugar alcohol...it has a sweet taste and aroma which leads to animals drinking antifreeze which for some time had propylene glycol as the major ingredient. Carol Looking at the >label, it lists the ingredients as minoxidil 5%, alcohol 30% by volume, >propylene >glycol 50% by volume, and water. No mention of perfume at all. > >Thanks, > >Joe > Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fwd: I need some advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > In a subsequent off-list e-mail, a person who I assume wishes to remain > nameless reminded me that some subdivisions have deed restrictions > that prohibit "livestock". (I assume that towns and villages would have > similar regulations.) > > This is a classic example! No one should tolerate this sort of wordplay > and fuzzy thinking for even a moment. There is a load of case law available on the internet about bees, beekeepers, and zoning of hives. (Several years back I wrote a long article for our newsletter about beekeeping and the law but had a hard drive crash and lost it and one other article.) What James talks about is on the net along with bees as a nuisance (they are not) and other thing discussed in this thread. But I got all the info off the internet, so I suggest google as a start. Lots of college law libraries are also on line, which was my other source. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:48:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Labchuk wrote: > Here are a few facts about human exposure in the US: > > - a federal study (1988-1994) sampled 900 adult volunteers from all over > the country. Farm families were not specifically examined. Only one dozen > pesticdes that readily metabolize and are eliminated in urine could be > measured. Metabolites of 1 organophosphate insecticide were detected in 82% > of the people, and metabolites of another OP insecticide detected in 42% of > them. Pentachlorophenol, a wood preservative, was detected in 64% of the > people. A metabolite of a carcinogenic pesticide used in mothballs and > toilet deodorizers was detected in 98% of the people. I am not going to bother to do the research on this, but the numbers are so big, such as "A metabolite of a carcinogenic pesticide used in mothballs and toilet deodorizers was detected in 98% of the people" strains my credibiliy and makes me suspect the rest. Unless, however, you check the term, "metabolite of a carcinogenic pesticide", then it all falls into place. Our bodies metabolize just about everything we eat. Those metabolites can be the same from onions, a known carcinogen (it actually is if the ingredients are tested as we currently do to determine if they are carciogenic) as metabolites from a pesticide. This looks like junk science, where you start with an agenda and then prove it. CO2 and water could be the common metabolites for all I know. The toilet bowl metabolites could be chlorides, and who doesn't secrete salt? Lord knows what they would find from broccoli (which has pesticide built in) eaters. And it is the kind of thing I have been warning about. I am against gaucho,. I do believe it is a problem. But if we make ourselves into such an easy target as the above, we are in trouble. We need good science, facts and fervor, not just the latter. To win on emotion, you need an exceptional propaganda machine. And you might win a couple, but once you are found out, the backlash can be worse than the success. Check Alar and its aftermath. More laws were generated from its banning to protect industry than the environment, all because it was a propaganda war and not a scientific one and shown to be so. End of rant. My apologies to Sharon, who I admire for her zeal, and any offended. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:55:05 -0400 Reply-To: Honeybees@inorbit.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist In-Reply-To: <200104170426.AAA25374@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is also an opinion that the grease (extender) patties played a role in resistance by keeping the bacteria exposed to terramycin for an extended period. Also, many recipes for terramycin extender patties that were printed in most bee supply catalogs, incorrectly gave a much lower dose of terramycin than was recommended by the manufacturer. The manufacturer also confused a lot of people by making 3 products with three different strengths and instructions that also confused. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W LibBEE@email.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sharon & All, I am afraid I won't be very popular with Sharon after I do this post and I am sorry. The main critic of *Silent Spring* by the chemical companies was what are the alternatives? Does Rachel Carson say let the world be taken over by insects? Chemicals ARE the last line of defense. Examples are the *West Nile Virus in New York and *sleeping disease* in Florida. Misquitos carry both. The beekeeping lawsuit in Florida involved misquito spraying in Florida. Many times peoples needs win out over birds needs. The fact that we will need stronger and different *new* chemicals to continue the battle was kept from the general pubic back in the 50's and 60's by chemical companies. The area of pesticides is not black or white but gray. On one hand beekeepers are cussing Bayer for introduction of Imidacloprid and praising Bayer for the *checkmite strips* which has bought commercial beekeeping ( U.S. )a couple years before the problem of Varroa control will be back. I expected varroa resistant to Coumaphos this spring but none have been reported yet. In my opinion they are allready in bee yards but so far have been undetected. IPM measures WILL NOT work for the million hives which polinate the crops in the U.S.. IPM is to labor intensive and not cost effective for a industry allready staggering from low income. IPM may in the end prove all we have got to work with. Many researcher have voiced the opinion. Chemical companies will be praised by some and then cussed by some. I have talked to the beekeeping representitives from both Bayer (Checkmite)& Zoecon (Apistan). They both understand the pesticide treadmill but are trying to provide short term solutions to problems for many industries. Release of chemicals into the invironment as Sharon said is a risky gamble at best as we CAN NOT know for sure long term effects. I felt it was time in the discussion to at least present why chemicals are used at all. I was raised in Florida and without treating for termites ALL houses become termite food. People will protect their investments. Now we have got chemicals in ground water. The problem in my opinion is when do you grab the spray gun and which chemical do you use. I understand the *pesticide treadmill* but also see chemicals *at times* a logical solution until a better solution can be came up with. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:02:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Spring Losses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit michael palmer wrote: I think I'm seeing tracheal mite > damage coupled with dysentary. The windy yards didn't get the early cleansing > flights that the sheltered yards did. Lots of "boiled out" bees and evidence of > dysentary in these yards. All the yards must have tracheal mites, but only the > ones with dysentary problems are in poor shape. I appreciate Michael's observations. Varroa is easy to blame, especially Apistan resistant Varroa, which we do have here in Maine and it is causing colony deaths, but many are losing there hives to tracheal and blaming Varroa. Last winter I lost two of three hives when I have not lost any in years (one died in the winter and I managed to kill the other in the spring using oxalic acid improperly) and thought it was resistant varroa but it was tracheal. As I have said before, I got complacent and figured it was a thing of the past. The one hive going into this winter was treated for tracheal and varroa (used Apistan), and it came through fine. Bees are working the crocus right now. Forcast is for up to eigth inches of snow tonight and tomorrow. Spring in Maine means snow will be less than a foot. Should all be gone by August. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:08:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Vertical Take-off - Horizontal Landing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My bottom boards are flush with the hive body and have a wrap of hardware cloth to keep the mice out. Less rot and dampness that way. A couple of tacks secure the cloth to the bottom board as does the weight of the hive bodies. I use no entrance reducers and my wide side opening hives seem to build up earlier. I use a few hives with the bottom opening on the long side as the end hives in rows of four to orient the entrance a different direction and keep the end hives from overfilling with drifters. Seems to work. What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:44:45 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/01 9:05:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: > I understand the *pesticide treadmill* but also > see chemicals *at times* a logical solution until a better solution can be > came up with. The area which contained the West Nile outbreak in NYC also contained a large tire dump. A photo opportunity for the mayor with a spray rig garners more political favor than educating the public to dump out buckets and containers and to cut holes in old tires. Mass spraying was more a political expedient than any form of control for mosquito populations. This year the focus is on habitat reduction and not mass spraying. Did all the dead monarch butterflies in the streets influence this? Or all the dead lobsters in the sound? Who knows , keep the pressure on and the tires and tin cans empty. The same approach as any other third world country. If you think West Nile was a problem wait until we get an outbraek of Dengue fever in the USA. What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Vertical Take-off - Horizontal Landing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Alan & All, Alan wrote: Are horizontal landing boards just a foible of beekeepers and beehive designers? We need those for our European bees! Africanized bees fly directly in the entrance. One of the first things I noticed about Africanized bees was watching them not use the landing board. Seriously I imagine beekeepers patterned bee hives after houses with front porches for looks and the idea has hung around. In my opinion hives with several openings are prefered by the bees and the way most hives I have removed from building have been. I did a experiment once using two swarm catchers. one a hive without a landing board and one with. The hive without the landing board cought more swarms over the two year period. The hive with several entrance holes cought the most however. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:41:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Al & All, Al wrote: Then I guess solutions are at hand because the problem has been evident for about 6 years and also about 300,000 hives have been lost. Or does time and losses in another country not count? The losses in France will certainly help beekeepers in the U.S. and other countries with their Imidacloprid claims. Unanswered questions remain about the France issue however. Why haven't hives died in other areas of the same type of Imidacloprid use? Why can't the losses be duplicated in tests. Example: When beekeepers lost hives in Florida claiming *Mitacur* strips killed their hives. The strips were pulled and the product was pulled and 150 hives were bought by the chemical company. The chemical company could not get the strips to kill or even reduce the population in hives. I not believing the claims of the beekeepers continued to use my strips until they were gone with success. Then instead of two chemicals for varroa control we only had one so resistant varroa mites had a foot in the door. Banning the sale of Imidacloprid is Ok with me. Won't bother me one bit. I hope they do. BUT some other type farmers (potato) might put up a fight. I believe a group of people with a need for Imidacloprid is pushing to keep the products on the market at the beekeepers and butterflies expense. When people quit buying the products they will disappear off the market. Herein lies the problem. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: BEE-L: approval required (F91708C1) Comments: cc: "boobooshoney@pei.sympatico.ca" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by boobooshoney@PEI.SYMPATICO.CA to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=F91708C1) (77 lines) ------------------- From: "al picketts" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" References: <200104161410.KAA26445@listserv.albany.edu> Subject: Re: Imidacloprid Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:04:23 -0300 Bob & All I realize that the wheels of change turn slowly especially when a chemical company is reaping big bucks and as you wrote *solutions happen with time BUT usually after a hugh number of hives have been lost.* Then I guess solutions are at hand because the problem has been evident for about 6 years and also about 300,000 hives have been lost. Or does time and losses in another country not count? I suggest that Americans not take the "It doesn't concern me until I see my own bees are dead" approach. Remember what the fellow said as he passed the 25th floor falling from the roof of a fifty story building. "So far so good"! It may be a short lived security. I enjoy your entries, Bob. Big Al PEI, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 13:42:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Vertical Take-off - Horizontal Landing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/01 10:10:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: << Seriously I imagine beekeepers patterned bee hives after houses with front porches for looks and the idea has hung around. >> It's not for looks. The bees don't need the projection of the bottom board. But when you load individual hives on a truck the extensions are quite important, because they ensure air space between the hives. I would have long ago abandoned the 22 inch bottom board if it weren't for that. You don't want hives packed tightly on the load, or the bees will suffocate. Most of the larger beekeepers are now palletized, and the pallets perform the same function of keeping air space, so it's a moot point anymore. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com One looks at the incredible complexity and beauty of the pollination process, and says, "It's a cosmic accident." Another says, "I see evidence of a Designer." Each gambles, but only one can win. Who is the fool? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:25:10 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: re. Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I hear what you're saying and I agree. Imidacloprid will probably stay = on the market for as long as there are people who are willing to pay for it regardless of the destruction it does. Beekeepers and butterfly watchers don't seem to carry much weight with government or big business. Could = we be witnessing the demise of beekeeping. Or maybe, just maybe, if we = scream loud enough and stomp our feet hard enough we could recruit many more = people who feel strongly about the little creatures of the world and the food = we eat and the water we drink. The more people we tell the more people = will be doing the telling until so many people are upset that something will = have to be done. Upset people worry politicians and the more worried politicians = are the more will be done. That too is a fact of life. At this point, though, I would be happy to see some *independent* = research done to shed more light on the problem. Regards Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob & Liz" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Imidacloprid . > Banning the sale of Imidacloprid is Ok with me. Won't bother me one = bit. I > hope they do. BUT some other type farmers (potato) might put up a = fight. I > believe a group of people with a need for Imidacloprid is pushing to = keep > the products on the market at the beekeepers and butterflies expense. = When > people quit buying the products they will disappear off the market. Herein > lies the problem. > Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:06:23 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, You did not offend me. I agree with all you said. We must have good = science and not shoot from the emotional hip without ammunition and a definite target. "Down with every chemical ever produced" is much too broad, = drastic, vague, unrealistic, unattainable (pick one or more). Let's just = concentrate on Imidacloprid for now. Regards Al Bill wrote: > End of rant. My apologies to Sharon, who I admire for her zeal, and = any > offended. > > Bill Truesdell > Bath, ME > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 05:46:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: I need some advice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The local law (if there is one) may have its own definition of livestock. In the UK I have looked up the definition because of the Foot & Mouth outbreak. The Diseases of Animals Act and regulations flowing from it have one definition,The Countryside & Rights of Way Act 2000 has another and my fat dictionary a third. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:00:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question for beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a very good question to which I for one do not have an answer. I do, however, have a suggestion, which is that a much larger proportion of all the mites there are is challenged with Apistan than the proportion of foulbrood bacteria challenged with Terramycin. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:27:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Varroa resistance In-Reply-To: <200104171256.IAA05697@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I meet the state bee inspector today who told me of an experience last week in a corner of our state. Apparently a hive being treated with Apistan (after several weeks) was still infested with varroa. Perhaps resistant mites are inevitable. I also thought maybe they were old strips (known or unknown to the beekeeper). I know there are other treatments for the mites, but wonder if anyone has first had experience with resistant varroa. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:39:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Varroa resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rob & All, Rob wrote: I meet the state bee inspector today who told me of an experience last week in a corner of our state. Apparently a hive being treated with Apistan (after several weeks) was still infested with varroa. Perhaps resistant mites are inevitable. I also thought maybe they were old strips (known or unknown to the beekeeper). I know there are other treatments for the mites, but wonder if anyone has first had experience with resistant varroa. Bob wrote: I saw my first fluvalinate resistant mites four years ago. I expect to see Coumaphos resistant mites this year. I expect the same trouble convincing beekeepers of the Coumaphos resistant mites as I have had the last four years convincing beekeepers of fluvalinate resistant mites. Varroa is going to get harder to control. Many *bee-havers* are going to quit beekeeping or be content with buying packages each spring. I notice you left the name of your state inspector and your state out of the post. Both of you need to search the Bee-L archives for information on resistant mites. Use resistant mites and my name in the search. Now is my busy time so I haven't got time to go over such a complicated subject ( which is in archives) but will try to address new concerns. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:15:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: incubator humidity range In-Reply-To: <200104151034.GAA25018@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Also use a temperature controller instead of a thermostat. They are > accurate to less than 1 degree... What exactly are temperature controllers, and where do you buy them? allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:30:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist In-Reply-To: <200104171257.IAA05741@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is also an opinion that the grease (extender) patties played a role in > resistance by keeping the bacteria exposed to terramycin for an extended > period. Although it is true that this rumour has been circulating, and even become a popular 'truth', it is also true that there is absolutely no evidence to back it up. I have challenged anyone repeating it to give me *any* evidence to substantiate it and I have never heard a shred of evidence to prove it. It is just one of those things that goes to show how much of what we 'know' is not true. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chuck Subject: spring feeding using gallon ziplock bags MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I came across this method when searching the archives. It seems like a very good idea, especially since I don't have to worry about whether the gallon jar/container I found was going to fit in a deep body without bumping up against the cover. But, I haven't seen any discussion of it here or in sci.agriculture.beekeeping for several years. Is it still a recommended method, or did I miss someone's post which debunked the whole idea? TIA, Chuck Wettergreen Geneva, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:11:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Why is it that mites have grown quickly resistant to Apistan but the > bacteria causing foulbrood have been slow to resist terra treatment? Resistance is a complex topic. There are a number of mechanisms by which resistance or tolerance can develop, a number of scenarios under which resistance is likely to happen fairly quickly, and conditions under which it cannot occur at all. There are also apparently mechanisms -- both natural and artificial -- by which resistance to a molecule or class of molecules can be transferred between organisms which are only distantly related. The mechanisms and conditions are different in each case. There are some obvious similarities between the resistance to OTC we see in some strain(s?) of AFB and the tolerance we see in varroa exposed over time to fluvalinate, however I doubt that there is a simple explanation. And I doubt that anyone has fully studied either phenomenon. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:04:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Doug Schlichting Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well here goes, Terramycin- brand name, oxytetracycline-generic name, belongs to a family of antibiotics widely used in animals and humans to treat a wide variety of bacterial diseases. Another drug in this class is tetracycline. These antibiotics work by inhibiting protein synthesis needed by the bacteria to produce RNA which is needed to copy its DNA. Basically, the drug works by blocking the reproduction of the bacteria. It does not outright kill the bacteria like other classes of antibiotics. So we put the terramycin in the hive and hope that if there are any AFB bacteria, also called spores when in their sort of dormant state, the drug will not let the bacteria reproduce creating a lot more bacteria and leading to clinical signs of an infected hive- meaning when we inspect the hive we say the hive has AFB. Say there are 1,000,000 bacteria exposed to the drug, 999,999 have their reproductive capabilities blocked, but there is 1 that does not. Maybe it was exposed to a lower dose, too short of time, or it has a mutation in it's DNA that makes it resistant. So now here is what we have, still 1,000,000 bacteria - remember the drug does not kill them, only prevents them from making more, but now 1 of that million can reproduce even when exposed to the drug. Well the bees have an immune system - it works different than ours, but it allows the bee to combat infections. Hopefully the bees will quickly kill that resistant bacteria themselves. Once it is gone we will have to wait for another 1 in a million (or whatever number) to show resistance again, but if that resistant bacteria survives, then........ there is a perfect set up for a resistant infection. So as long as there are not too many ( I have no idea of a number of how many are too many) bacteria, the bees can kill the bacteria with the bee immune system. The immune system works different that the antibiotic we gave - so the bees can kill the 1 out of the million resistant bacteria. So now comes some bad luck. A hive gets infected, sick, or whatever you want to call it with AFB. Now there are more bacteria present than the bee's immune system can handle. If the root of the infection is from the bacteria that happens to be resistant to the antibiotic, terramycin -we have an infected hive we can't effectively treat. Hopefully the hive is burned, gassed, or soaked in lye to kill and destroy the bacteria in that sick hive so that the resistant bacteria are not spread. Keep in mind that bacteria have been on earth for a lot longer than humans and they have adapted mechanisms to guarantee their survival. Pointing fingers at another beekeeper, country, or continent as the blame has no place in this problem. Bacteria have adapted for millions of years to survive and are adapting now in the face of our antibiotics, in bees, other animals, and people. I'm going to stop my editorializing, and say I will check into the mechanism of action of how fluvinate, Apistan, works and compare that to the bacterial resistance issue. >>> Gothoney@AOL.COM 04/15/01 12:31PM >>> Why is it that mites have grown quickly resistant to Apistan but the bacteria causing foulbrood have been slow to resist terra treatment? Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:38:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> There is also an opinion that the grease (extender) patties played a role in >> resistance by keeping the bacteria exposed to terramycin for an extended >> period. > ... there is absolutely no evidence to back it up... > ... goes to show how much of what we 'know' is not true. This is a bit harsh. In addition to prolonged exposure to the antibiotic, there are a number of additional GOOD reasons that extender patties are rumored to lend themselves to possible resistance to Oxytet, including improper dosage (either in improper portions of oxytet/sugar/grease, improper size of patty placed in hives, and incomplete consumption of the patty that may or may not be properly mixed). Extender patties simply do not comply to "usage guidelines" for antibiotics in general. Any antibiotic instructions I have ever read state consume the entire prescription regardless of symptoms. The few times I tried extended patties there were more than a few hives that simply did not consume the entire patty, and I have no idea what was the dosage they received. I have never had such problems with dusting. When properly mixed, the bees get the prescribed dose and the spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. This is not to say that there is a cause and effect between extender patties and TM resistant bacteria, I am not making such a claim. But there are lots of good reasons to avoid them. Balancing the reasons to avoid them against labor costs of 1 versus 3 bee yard visits is a magnitude of operation issue, the consequences of which must be borne by all operations, regardless of size. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > There is also an opinion that the grease (extender) patties > played a role in > > resistance by keeping the bacteria exposed to terramycin > for an extended > > period. > > Although it is true that this rumour has been circulating, > and even become a > popular 'truth', it is also true that there is absolutely no > evidence to back it > up. > If the resistance to TM is the result of a new mutation in the bacteria then low dosage exposure is not going to have anything to do with spreading the new DNA around. In fact neither will high dosage exposure. If the resistance to TM is the result of an old mutation and the low dosage of TM is causing selection for the trait then those using the extender methods should see a high level of TM resistance. This does not seem to be the case. I thought of another model. If the extender were to be compared to a wolf then you are putting one or two in the forest among the deer year round. The population is controlled with the weak getting it first and some of the strong getting unlucky as well. The deer continue to compete amongst themselves for resources and the wolves keep any from becoming too successful. The deer population remains diverse and open to control by wolf. Hitting the population with a strong dose of wolves would drop the population of deer where only the very best have any chance of survival. Now your breeding population is made up of only wolf-resistant deer and since the new population is so low there is little competition for the resources. The deer population may now explode as the wolf is no longer a factor. Here is some additional thoughts. Let us guess that in a normal hive environment there are several thousand types of bacteria. Putting in a broad spectrum antibiotic like TM is going to kill off lots of harmless bacteria (harmless to bees but not harmless to other bacteria). The resulting survivors are going to be those that did not get hit by the TM, in this case the AFB in spore form. When these spores wake up they may well find themself in an environment where they have lots of resources due to the removal of other bacteria. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:30:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen .. it may be as simple as the fact that over using Apistan requires no extra work .. you put in and leave longer than 45 days. Albeit overusing Terramycin requires you to continually go to the hive and administer. There are reports of TM resistant foulbrood Dave At 05:11 PM 4/17/01 -0600, you wrote: >> Why is it that mites have grown quickly resistant to Apistan but the >> bacteria causing foulbrood have been slow to resist terra treatment? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:19:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have made an effort to stay out of this complex problem, but it would appear that the inquirer is NOT comparing apples to apples when talking about the difference in resistance of mites and AFB bacteria. Mites are a PEST, not a germ. AFB bacteria is a germ, not a pest. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: spring feeding using gallon ziplock bags In-Reply-To: <200104181639.MAA03236@listserv.albany.edu>; from meadmakr@ENTERACT.COM on Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:19:45AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:19:45AM -0500, Chuck wrote: > I came across this method when searching the archives. It seems like a > very good idea, especially since I don't have to worry about whether the > gallon jar/container I found was going to fit in a deep body without > bumping up against the cover. > It has advantages when other feeders are not available. One of its major disadvantages is that if you are not careful with this feeder you can spill a lot of syrup down into the hive and make quite a mess. A good pail feeder with is my favorite. An inexpensive migratory cover with a hole added removes the need for an empty hive body. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:53:15 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: spring feeding using gallon ziplock bags MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck wrote: Re: spring feeding using gallon ziplock bags > > I haven't seen any discussion of it here or in > sci.agriculture.beekeeping for several years. Is it still a recommended > method, or did I miss someone's post which debunked the whole idea? I've used the baggie method for short term feeding - 3-4 feedings - and it works just fine. The bags are one time use, so an extended feeding period ups the cost and generates trash. Recently I started using feeders that replace a frame in the brood box and have found them to be much better than baggie feeders for longer term feeding. They also allow more bees to have access to the syrup at the same time than the inverted jug/bucket method. AL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:26:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Varroa resistance In-Reply-To: <200104181243.IAA19257@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Bob, I did leave out the state name and the inspector's name, only because it was a verbal report and it's important to keep the facts 100% straight. I saw the inspector again today, and emailed them last night with detailed questions and answers. I am the webmaster of the state beekeepers association and within a week of the discovery, our website should have the details about the incident. I've not been successful in searching the archives using keywords. What is the procedure for doing this? At 07:39 AM 4/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >I saw my first fluvalinate resistant mites four years ago. I expect to see >Coumaphos resistant mites this year. I expect the same trouble convincing >beekeepers of the Coumaphos resistant mites as I have had the last four >years convincing beekeepers of fluvalinate resistant mites. Varroa is going >to get harder to control. Many *bee-havers* are going to quit beekeeping or >be content with buying packages each spring. I notice you left the name of >your state inspector and your state out of the post. Both of you need to >search the Bee-L archives for information on resistant mites. Use resistant >mites and my name in the search. Now is my busy time so I haven't got time >to go over such a complicated subject ( which is in archives) but will try >to address new concerns. >Sincerely, >Bob Harrison >Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 15:05:38 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robert Mann Subject: Estimated 25 Million Cases of Pesticide Poisoning Each Year Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FAO Programme for Community IPM in Asia: Estimated 25 Million Cases of Pesticide Poisoning Each Year - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I was perusing Steve Taber's _Breeding_Super_Bees_ last night. He set the humidity figure at 90%. Aaron Morris - Thinking if Colonel Sanders say it, it must be so! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Varroa resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Rob & All, I did quite a few posts about Varroa and fluvalinate resistant mites about a year ago. If you keep searching the archives Rob you should find the information you are looking for. At the very least you can run a search with my name but expect to get a list of almost 300 posts I have posted since I joined Bee-L a little over a year ago. Short thru the subjects for fluvalinate resistant varroa. The sun hasn't came up yet in Missouri and I am headed to the bee yards. Will be in the yards the next three days. Maybe Allen or Aaron can give search pointers for the list. I am posting this post to the list instead of to you direct Rob in case other Bee-L people are having trouble finding information on fluvalinate resistant mites. Many times the subject of the post is not a indicator of the content as we seem to wander a bit but not as much as the other lists I belong to. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:52:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Estimated 25 Million Cases of Pesticide Poisoning Each Year MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote: > > Estimated 25 Million Cases of Pesticide Poisoning Each Year Interesting, but little data to support it other than observations in Cambodia and Java. And deals with misapplication being the cause in a country that has no pesticide regs and no controls at all and allows the use of banned pesticides. Interesting base on which to extrapolate figures. Not very good science. Could find no mention of bees in the article. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:27:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 16 Apr 2001 to 17 Apr 2001 (#2001-106) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/17/01 11:29:58 PM Central Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: > Take carbofuran for example > (manufactured by Bayer, by the way). Sharon, Carbofuran (trade name Furadan, several formulations) is manufactured by the FMC Corporation -- not Bayer. Regards, Matt Higdon mid-MO, mid USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:42:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The turf grub killer Merit is pretty common and is Imidacloprid. Lets hope the folks with the chemical lawns also kill off their broadleaf weeds like clover when they use this stuff. I have a hive right now that has dead bees with bright yellow full pollen baskets laying out front of it. Most likely a home orchard spray or turf chemical. What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 00:36:16 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, In response to your comments about the amount of antibiotic taken in by the bees from a patty and the comparison made with the method of administrating the bees with antibiotic and sugar powder. By dusting the frames and /or bees with a set amount of "powder" does not ensure that the bees have consumed a set dose of antibiotic either! If it does, then I have missed something and am very willing to be told what it is! Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- Marla Spivak in her book successful queen rearing says that temperature must be kept between 92-94F and that queens will die at temperatures above 96F and below 88F. Water should be provided in the incubator to maintain the relative humidity at 70 - 80%. Marc Studebaker Geneva, Indiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:06:04 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: incubator humidity range In-Reply-To: <200104181605.MAA00729@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, Allen Dick wrote: > > Also use a temperature controller instead of a thermostat. They are > > accurate to less than 1 degree... > > What exactly are temperature controllers, and where do you buy them? They are an electronic thermostat. The sensitivity can be made very small, but as you know the circulation of air in the chamber is probably more important than the sensitivity of the thermostat. They are readily available in Edmonton at stores specializing in temperature control equipment for industry. The industrial ones go for about $100-$200, and have adjustable set points, different voltage for driving the relays that actually turn the equipment on and off, annunciator outputs for out of range conditions etc. You can build a very good one for your own special purposes for about $20 not including the relay. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Varroa resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, We had our monthly meeting of the Midwestern Beekeepers last night. We took delivery of several new books for our library. I had been thinking of ordering the new Dadant book *Mites of the Honey Bee* edited by Thomas C. Webster & Keith S. Delaplane. I usually like to at least thumb through a book before buying but I had been ready to add the book to my next Dadant order. Last night I checked the book out of the club library. All bee clubs should order a copy for their library! The books authors are many of the best beekeeping minds today. I cheated and went directly to the CHAPTER on *Resistance to Varroa mites to Acricides*. Needless to say I couldn't put the book down. For me the information is not new but for a uninformed beekeeper the book will help you understand resistance. Norberto Milani (Italy) writes the chapter. A couple highlights are the year Coumaphos resitant mites are documented in Italy and putting in print a statment I have had huge disagreements with my fellow beekeepers over. "There is no reason to believe that the varroa mite cannot develop resistance against acarcides of simple origin or simple molecules like formic acid" (Milani 2001). Milani goes on to explain why varroa will eventually develop resistance to formic acid. I usually don't recommend a book until I have read the whole book but am doing so on this book after only reading one chapter and thumbing through the book. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps heading to the bee yards with burning eyes from staying up reading late. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Patty vs. Powder (Was Question for a beekeeper/microbiologist) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Dillon wrote: "... dusting the frames and /or bees with a set amount of "powder" does not ensure that the bees have consumed a set dose of antibiotic either!" Well, I can't totally disagree with this statement, but the dosage delivered to the boxes (as opposed to the bees) is a known variable, and rarely is that known dose left unconsumed by the bees. The widely fluctuating variable in the equation is the population of bees within the hive. And that is one of the problems commonly acknowledged in the whole TM treatment treadmill. The instructions are real specific regarding the proportions of TM and confectioners sugar to mix and the amount to deliver per hive, per treatment at specific intervals. What is missing is any consideration for size of the hive (One deep or two? Or does the beekeeper use a 3 Illinois configuration? Are we talking a populous hive or a dink? Spring or Fall?). The label instructions are a one size fits all, and obviously bees don't adhere to standards. My point is that dusting delivers a more precise dosage in a more controlled time span, more closely approximating prescribed guidelines when using antibiotics. It is a far more controllable delivery method than grease patties, which more times than not (in my experience) deliver a less than prescribed dose of antibiotic over a longer than prescribed period of time. I am not saying grease patties caused TM resistant bacteria, I do not believe that to be the case. I've already weighed in that I think it was Allen Dick's alien buddies that caused the whole problem. But I reiterate that prolonged exposure to sub lethal doses of antibiotics is a recognized mechanism in the advent of resistant bacterial. And I do not challenge Allen's assertion that no research has been done to link TM resistant bacteria to grease patties. Aaron Morris - thinking packages tomorrow! My point is that dusting If it does, then I have missed something and am very willing to be told what it is! Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Varroa resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > "There is no reason to believe that the varroa mite cannot develop > resistance against acarcides of simple origin or simple molecules like > formic acid" (Milani 2001). Milani goes on to explain why varroa will > eventually develop resistance to formic acid. Which is why Medhat Nzar's IPM methods are so good. By alternating the treatment (as well as breeding for tolerance) you get the best of all possible worlds. It lets you use known treatments into the far future. Medhat spoke at our Annual Meeting here in Maine. His approach works and is backed up by good science. If you have the opportunity to invite him as a speaker at your meetings, I strongly suggest you do. He has a lot to offer. It is an approach that takes a few years, but if run on a state to state or regional level, could do wonders for the industry. New Jersey is fortunate to have him now. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:14:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: 2 Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Coleene E. Davidson [mailto:cedavidson@NETONECOM.NET] Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: 2 Questions Hi All, I have a couple of quick questions: -After a 1300 mile round trip to pick up package bees(Carniolans)-If these bees are supposed to be the best at weathering the harsh winter of the north, why are all of the package producers in California? I was procure packages from a beekeeper bringing packages into Minnesota. -I have been considering pollen collection for a couple of reasons-feeding AND Varroa removal. It has been shown that some mites are removed when the bees go through the Pollen strippers. Are there any statistics as to how many bees are injured going in and out through the pollen traps? Thanks much, Coleene Davidson Central Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Churchill Subject: Re: Why do package bees come from California In-Reply-To: <200104201414.KAA17276@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:14 AM 4/20/01 -0400, Coleene Davidson wrote: >-After a 1300 mile round trip to pick up package bees(Carniolans)-If these >bees are supposed to be the best at weathering the harsh winter of the >north, why are all of the package producers in California? It is a timing issue. Bees in southern climates build up earlier in the year than up north. If you got packages built up in Minnesota, they would be available too late in the year to capitalize on your local spring flow. You would end up feeding/medicating/overwintering these bees for a year before getting anything useful from them. The old nursery rhyme sums it up nicely : A Swarm of Bees in May A swarm of bees in May Is worth a load of hay; A swarm of bees in June Is worth a silver spoon; A swarm of bees in July Is not worth a fly. Mike Churchill, Beginning Beekeeper | What's the buzz all about? mike.churchill@netmechanic.com http://www.netmechanic.com - Power Tools for Your Web Site Link and HTML testing, Server Reliability Testing, Website Promotion Tools ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:41:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with rules and guidelines. Anyone and everyone with interest in bees is welcome to join. We do, however, have rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must know and observe. Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. In a sense, we are writing a book together. We would like to point out to new members (and remind long-time members) that all our rules, including the sign-on messages as well as access to our FAQ can be found at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. You will also find links to enable you to easily and quickly change -- or cancel -- your BEE-L membership there. IMPORTANT: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. You will also find info at that site on what might have happened if you posted and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:41:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: FW: 2 Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron I have no numbers, but on any pollen trapping I have done the odd leg or wing will occur in among the pellets. I have no recollection of seeing a leg with an attached pellet. (Iwould have saved it for the microscope). My stripping screens are horizontal, perforated plastic, and the legs and wings could have fallen from higher up in the colony. A few varroa knocked off makes sense but I have not noticed it. I will pay particular attention to it next time I do any trapping. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman Archives of IBList, website http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:48:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Resistant Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am struck that no one is suggesting a combination miticide attack. Alternating Apistan and Coumaphos. It would take dual resistance to survive that year after year, wouldn't it? That out to be orders of magnitude more difficult to develop, shouldn't it? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:57:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: TM dust MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When I have used TM/sugar dust, a goodly amount shows up on the landing board pretty soon. Is that the only amount not consumed or is more taken farther away before being ditched? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "j.david clark" Subject: Re: TERRAMYCIN APPLICATIONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks , I have taken my hives out from indoor wintering two weeks ago this coming Sunday . The past year has been my first introduction to beekeeping . I started out with 45 New Zealand packages last April and overwintered 44 colonies . I lost 8 colonies overwinter and the remaining colonies appear in satisfactory condition . I would like to treat my colonies with Terramycin - Oxyol - 62.5 . I'm told that a sure fire way to treat is to blend the Terramycin with sugar syrup , open the top cover and pour 1 cup full of the antibiotic blend directly over the bee cluster . Apparently the bees will clean one another , insuring injestion of the drug . The product is apparently short lived and provides maximum benefits . Can someone advise me as to the risks and benefits of using this technique . If the practice is sound , can someone tell me as to the proportions of the drug I should mix with the cup of syrup . Thanking all for any conciderations , kindest regards . David . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:19:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: bee software On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:05:47 -0400, Digest Cesar Flores wrote: >I am amazed that there are not alot of high quality software packages out >there that would serve to manage a honey business from top to bottom. It >seems like such an obvious and simple(?) application. > >I would actually be more interested to know of record keeping techniques >people are using that are NOT computer based. > >In the field, I am using the primitive method of writing notes on the hive >top-cover with a grease pencil. I know of the use of bricks painted different >colors that can be oriented in a sort of code. What are people doing now >since they obviously aren't using computers (for record keeping anyway)? I thought it is time again to resurrect this old BEE-L thread in light of new software, new hand-held computers and new beekeepers. I realise brick marking and grease crayon marking will never go out of style, but I can see that a new day is dawning in the beeyard. I thoroughly enjoyed the presentation at the AFB in San Diego about using bar codes and since then we have talked a little both here and on sci.agriculture.beekeeping about several packages, including Bidata which was an early starter in this field. Frankly, I have always thought of myself as an early adopter, but I found recently that I have really missed the boat on PDAs. PDAs just sneaked right up on me. I never took these little things seriously until I read a post on sci.agriculture.beekeeping about a beekeeper that uses a Palm and HanDBase. Several weeks later, I find can't do anything without my Palm m105. My 500 Mz 64Meg notebook sits relatively neglected. That sci.agriculture.beekeeping post piqued my interest, and the next time I was in Staples, I drifted by the PDA counter and asked a young lad what these things are -- really. I didn't actually understand his answer, but I bought the second cheapest one to play on the clear understanding that I could take it back within 10 days for a full cash refund -- no questions asked. I had bought a small $40 organizer several years ago because my flight instructor used one all the time, but after reading the documentation and turning it on a time or two, never looked at it again. I fully intended to take this one back, but first I had to prove to myself what a useless toy it was. The Palm m105is light-years from the organizer toy I had previously. The Palm is a *real computer* with a truly great OS and fantastic software available. It has 8 megs of RAM (1000X what my first personal computer had). The Palm input/output at first seems a bit cramped, but the ingenious design of the device and the software available overcomes that by ingenious use of multiple views and fonts. The Graffiti(r) writing style can be largely mastered within an hour. It is slower than typing (even mine) but is easy to do. In addition, the Palm easily and automatically synchronizes with my desktop machine, so I can upload my data, do the biggest jobs at the desk, and then d/l them back to my Palm for easy access in the field. Notes made in the field can even be merged record by record with some of the DBs available. I can transfer data to anyone else with a Palm unit nearby without using wires. I can even do email on the Palm -- if I want to go to the trouble! I have been happy with using Excel on my desktop computer for record keeping as I have said here before, but periodically have a problem when the sheet grows large or I add or subtract yards. I also have to manally re-enter the info from the field notes almost daily -- at least a half-hour task. Moreover, I have always dropped off older info when it got cumbersome -- and hidden fields have been a hassel. I have always known that a relational database would be be ideal, but have considered it a fairly daunting development task with limited payback. With several relational DBs I have so far found for the Palm, all that changes. The design job is relatively trivial. Some of these DBs even will work with Access and also allow several users simultaneous read/write use of data before merging and can have bar code capability. I can import old data from other software, albeit with a little massaging, and append it where I wish. I have done so and been pleased. I'm only half way or so thru the list of software available at www.palm.com and have so far found HanDBase and thinkDB. I am evaluating them both on the 30 day free trial. I have not gotten to JFile yet. So far thinkDB looks quite a bit more sophisticated and flexible, but the learning curve is steeper. I have not linked files with thinkDB yet, but I have found that process simple in HandBase. HanDBase seems much more limited comparatively in viewing and report formatting capabilities, so today thinkDB is my favourite. Nonetheless either DB seems excellent. I realise that there are other PDAs and that there are other OSs for them. That should not be a problem; some of these programs are available for all OSs and the data can be exchanged. I'm offering this short essay as an opener to provoke some detailed discussion, and even maybe template sharing. I hope others will take the time to share their experiences and offer any templates they think are worthwhile. Please put them on a website or offer them by email though and don't attach them to a BEE-l post. BEE-L is text only. You can put them at the BeeGadgets site http://www.onelist.com/community/BeeGadgets and point to it if you like. TIA. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:04:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis M Murrell Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Regarding Allen Dicks question concerning the source for my temperature controller. Temperature controllers use a thermistor to measure temperature change. Switching is controlled electronically with transistors rather than using contact points. This allows the temperature differential to be set to rather small values not limited to the mechanical properties of a set of contact points. They are used in process control, air conditioning, heating, etc. for large buildings. I bought mine (Goldline Model SP-34)for about $60US from Graingers, an industrial suppply company in the USA. Contact any industrial supply company. Several less expensive models with more functionality are being imported and may be available in your area Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:59:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: TERRAMYCIN APPLICATIONS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello David & All, I haven't fed Terramycin in syrup in the last two decades. When I did I fed the normal amount you would feed the hive if you were dusting three times as per directions in a gallon of syrup. I have had trouble getting the Terramycin to disolve in the syrup at times when mixing a 55 gallon drum at a time. I felt a better exact dose was had by dusting so I went back to dusting.. The syrup/terra needs to be protected from direct sunlight and taken by the bees in short order. . Do not use a boardman feeder in direct sunlight when feeding Terra in syrup. I see no problems with your idea but in my opinion dusting would work as well. I did however only feed the terra/syrup in one application instead of three trips to the hive with the dustings. Sorry but I can't remember the exact syrup to terra dosage. I was feeding quite a bit of Erythromycin back then for European foulbrood which I gave in syrup also. I don't know of any beekeepers feeding either in syrup these days. Maybe other Bee-L list members can help you with better mixing directions. I believe (from memory) one pound of TM 25 would treat 50-100 hives. The mix was never very exact by instructions. Its been so long I can't remember if we put one pound to a 55 gallon drum or a half pound to a drum. Sorry. I have had several reports of beekeepers finding AFB in hives they treated with terramycin last fall so keep a sharp lookout even with your method. Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:32:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: Resistant Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Ontario it is recommended that we use Formic acid (a vapour miticide) in Spring and Apistan (a contact miticide) in the Fall. I think this is even more effective since the varying method of application eliminates many potential tolerance mechanisms. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:29:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: bee software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "W. Allen Dick" wrote: > bought the second cheapest one to play How much did that one cost (approximately)? Now that you've made the leap, would you buy a more expensive one if you did it over? Why? Logan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:40:42 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: bee software In-Reply-To: <200104210104.VAA10503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:05:47 -0400, Digest Cesar Flores > wrote: > > >I am amazed that there are not alot of high quality software packages out > >there that would serve to manage a honey business from top to bottom. It > >seems like such an obvious and simple(?) application. Simple ? maybe but I learnt from working with this that this is simple with big modification. Beekeepers are not that confirm, and each of us think we have found the way more or less successful. What we expect from software for beekeeping is very variant from beekeeper to beekeeper. Some just need a few notes to a hive and other want the software to dig into future such as if I do so what can I expect? So making a software covering all what all beekeepers need is not that simple at the end. It is very easy to get to sit between two chairs, I know because I have been there. > >I would actually be more interested to know of record keeping techniques > >people are using that are NOT computer based. This is an issue worked with for years in different countries and I think you can find a national developed hivenote card, that cover most of what you need. Here in the Scandinavian countries we have a hive note card that compared to each other is very very similar, and I once have that stupid thought that what is working in Scandinavia also could work in the rest of the world. > I thought it is time again to resurrect this old BEE-L thread in light of > new software, new hand-held computers and new beekeepers. I know I have been contributing to this thread a lot to much, but the world goes on, and since my first try in this field computers have changed, and development have gone on in software, so you can get nearly all you need if, and I think this is the isue, You want to pay for it. Developing software is not cost-free; and it is very common to pay around US$35/$40 (some developers take more), and to cover the cost there mostly is a demand of US$400 for a specialised developed software. EDBi and I have decided to make the software we are developing low-cost. We are not compromising in quality, but our goal is to help the beekeeping not to profit on it. So we set a price of max US$100 for our software. > I realise brick marking and grease crayon marking will never go out of > style, but I can see that a new day is dawning in the beeyard. I > thoroughly enjoyed the presentation at the AFB in San Diego about > using bar codes. If I can put this in, this is rearly a step forward in note taking, special when we are talking aabout using PDA as a Help in notetaking. Think about having 3000 hives registred on the Palm. I have tried this in a test and then finding the correct record to edit in a snap. It was not that easy, but with a barcode scanner and a barcode on the hive it was just that easy. Simply scan edit next hive. Ok it still demand you to think, but the triviality is cut down, and you are getting more time for handling the bees. And home, just hotsync with the desktop software while you have time for the family and the trivial work is drastical cut down. And with a modem and a Mobil Phone it can even be finished before you get home. And more, if you have more workers maybe working far away from basic, then you can get updated at home about every hive visited the same day regardsles if you have hives in British Columbia and/or in Alberta. > I fully intended to take this one back, but first I had to prove to myself > what a useless toy it was. > I have always known that a relational database would be be ideal, but have > considered it a fairly daunting development task with limited payback. Each software is designed for a special task. Excell is for counting and budgets, Access is for database enginering, Word is for Documents and so on. For small beekeepers Excell is well and usefull, but it is not designed for use as a Database. Access is much more for this purpose. The problem im my eyes is that people are doing much to much paperwork, and creating a database to contain all those notes made is not that easy, but it can be done if you take some study in database development. Bidata is a relational database, with barcode support and scanning facility on the PDA, if you can use it with my build in limitations, fine it is free for you up to 10 hives, steep 20-40 hives $45 or 9 million hives $100 up to you. But still there are other dabases around, and I think also more will come. I though hope for the bebefit of beekeeping and not for profit. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software with barcode support 10-04-2001 added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 06:36:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: incubator humidity range MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis & All, Dennis wrote: They are used in process control, air conditioning, heating, etc. for large buildings. I bought mine (Goldline Model SP-34)for about $60US from Graingers, an industrial suppply company in the USA. Contact any industrial supply company. Several less expensive models with more functionality are being imported and may be available in your area Bob wrote: Murray McMurray hatchery also sells a electronic thermostat for about the same price as the Grainger. catalog #2GELT. *All electronic thermostats are not recommended for still air incubators*. 1/10 degree F. activates the thermostat. 1-800-456-3280. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "W. Allen Dick" wrote: > Frankly, I have always thought of myself as an early adopter, but I found > recently that I have really missed the boat on PDAs. PDAs just sneaked > right up on me. I never took these little things seriously until I read a > post on sci.agriculture.beekeeping about a beekeeper that uses a Palm and > HanDBase. Several weeks later, I find can't do anything without my Palm > m105. My 500 Mz 64Meg notebook sits relatively neglected. CNet has the bunch including reviews and prices. They usually do a good job and are fairly unbiased. http://two.digital.cnet.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eBjs0BIws80U0bHB0Ai Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:43:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: bee software Comments: cc: "BeeGadgets@yahoogroups. com" In-Reply-To: <200104211352.JAA05476@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glad to see we are getting some good input here, including the post from Jorn. Jorn has been working on software longer than almost anyone and although I have yet to download and evaluate his program, I should imagine that it is getting quite advanced and stable. I hope he will document more details of his system here and how it is working for beekeepers. I'd like to know how many beekeepers are now using it and in what countries and what sizes of operations. > CNet has the bunch including reviews and prices. They usually do a good > job and are fairly unbiased. > > http://two.digital.cnet.com/cgi-bin2/flo?y=eBjs0BIws80U0bHB0Ai Thanks. I find CNet and ePinions very useful for many things, however I found that the listings of features etc. were a bit meaningless until I had one home and had actually used one for a few hours. I recommend buying one that seems reasonable in price and features with the understanding that it can go back within a week or two for full refund if not satisfactory. Then you can trade up or down or just get your money back. When you have an actual unit in your hand these ratings and comparisons are much more meaningful. > > bought the second cheapest one to play > How much did that one cost (approximately)? $300 CAD or about $200US. > Now that you've made the leap, would you buy a more expensive one if you > did it over? Why? I'll probably buy more of them for my wife and employees over time. I'll pass on the more basic units and move up if I see any advantage. Right now the one I have is more feature-laden than I can comprehend. I regard these small items as disposable -- with a one year expected useful life -- and don't want to spend a lot now for features that I do not need today. I know newer and better units will be cheaper by the time I get to where I want them. I'm happy now. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: bee software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: When you have an actual unit in your hand > these ratings and comparisons are much more meaningful. The most recent issue of Consumer Reports has comparisons and features. Plus which one "fits your needs". Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:25:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: bee software In-Reply-To: <200104210103.VAA10423@listserv.albany.edu>; from allend@INTERNODE.NET on Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:19:01PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I have always known that a relational database would be be ideal, but have > considered it a fairly daunting development task with limited payback. > With several relational DBs I have so far found for the Palm, all that > changes. The design job is relatively trivial. Some of these DBs even > will work with Access and also allow several users simultaneous read/write > use of data before merging and can have bar code capability. I can import > old data from other software, albeit with a little massaging, and append it > where I wish. I have done so and been pleased. > If you were to design a relational database what would you key on? Would you assign hive bodies numbers? Things are so interchangable I would wonder what the core of the record keeping would revolve around. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:50:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: bee software Comments: cc: "BeeGadgets@yahoogroups. com" In-Reply-To: <200104211728.NAA09549@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > If you were to design a relational database what would you key on? Would you > assign hive bodies numbers? Things are so interchangeable I would wonder what > the core of the record keeping would revolve around. The main unit in my outfit is the bee yard. However there are other units of interest such as hives and areas and treatments. Employees doing tasks and dates are also of interest. The DBs I have examined seem to be able to use multiple files and multiple indices. I haven't gotten too far into it, but I was able to transfer my Excel data into one and sort and report by any field. I am assuming that I could set a good DB up to sort, search, filter, total and report by any field and not be limited to one field as key. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:18:27 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Bee damage by pollen trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It seems absurd on the face of it that even if a bee got stuck in a pollen trap - an unlikely event - that she would pull so hard as to pull her leg or wing off. Meanwhile, a few bees are dying in the hive and "undertaker bees" are removing them by pulling on their legs and wings. Who could doubt that that is the source of the occasional bee part loose in the hive? And underneath all is the pollen drawer to catch everything which falls (on many but not all trap designs; it won't be necessary to post that YOUR design does not). Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:12:04 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: bee software In-Reply-To: <200104211954.PAA12154@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]På vegne af Allen Dick > Sendt: 21. april 2001 21:51 > Til: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Emne: Re: bee software > > > > what would you key on? Would you > > assign hive bodies numbers? Things are so interchangeable I > would wonder what > > the core of the record keeping would revolve around. I am working in a master detail relationship. and I am keying some fields for the purpose of fast look up, sorting and so on. The main key I use Is not a hive body number but a hive number. It might not be of interest for the most, but a database works best so. So take it as just a number. In my software it must be unique for each hive but don't need to be continues within a yard. I am also keying the queen, and for that purpose I create a 'Social security number'. It is not just a number, and if you choose the option you can read a lot out of it. The queen breeder the race the year taken into use and a specific ID ending up with the hive number taken into use. This way I think it is hard to find any other queen with this data. > The main unit in my outfit is the bee yard. I arrange the master detail so that the normal view is the beeyard or location if you want. the screen show all hives on a location with the screen parted in a master and detail part, sorted by hive or group for the master and date for the detail. The detail is your hivenotes and the master is the last note you have entered. In a synchronized database you can enter Disease/treatments to each hive or to selected hives ( I have made it possible to multiselect).There is no limits on disease records to a hive. > The DBs I have examined seem to be able to use multiple files and multiple > indices. You have a free search for all data in Bidata, but the reporting is lacking , mainly because of no interest for this shown to me and for the reason that the reporting tool cost me money, so I have some few fixed reports. But here is a user definable reporting tool for the database I am using. > I am assuming that I could set a good DB up to sort, search, > filter, total and > report by any field and not be limited to one field as key. This you can do in my software, search on values in field you want shown, sort it on any field you want. I have supplied the SQL (search query language) help file so that you can build your own search routine. But It takes a little time to get used to it. But as you have said, there is a learning curve to everything, and a database is no exception. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software 10-04-2001 added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:13:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Hive record keeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I have long pondered the questions raised in attempting to hold beekeeping records on computer. To me at any rate, a computer is a more efficient way of keeping records than is pen and paper. But surely a good computer system must essentially do what a good manual system has done perhaps for many years. I believe that it is possible to get totally hung up on database theory and miss vital facts in designing a system. We talk about what is the core of the record keeping system. If we see a hive as a series of boxes, each of which has an identity outside of the hive, I believe that we will get nowhere in designing a beehive system. Surely the core item is the hive, a collection of which is a 'yard' or an apiary. And should we not have a system which allows us to record in plain English, what transpires every time we visit a hive. If we attempt to categorise all of the possible events which can occur when we visit a beehive, I really feel that we will get ourselves into a data overload situation in which it will be nearly impossible to figure out what actually happened when we went to the hive. I suppose that we could get involved in computerised stock control, as I tried to do in attempting to have a stock control system of supers etc. Perhaps in a big operation, that may pay dividends, but in your normal small operation, the best system of stock control as I have been told many times, is count the number of items on the shelves. We can get ourselves into a situation in which it is more difficult to record what actually happened than to carry out the manipulations on the hives. So just record, the date, hive no and what happened. key it into Excel or Access or whatever. But in my opinion, do not create a recording operation which just creates additional work for the beekeeper. Maybe the older beekeepers who opened a ledger page for each hive and then recorded the activities on each hive had the right idea. And perhaps the best software systems just emulate these manual systems. Just my views for what they are worth. Sincerely Tom Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 17:34:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry for all the quotes below, but some may recall that this is an old thread from Sun, 26 Nov 2000. I've been waiting to resurrect it, since it is right about this time of year that the effects of bad wrapping or no wrapping become apparent in areas where wrapping is the norm. Do people still believe that just because a cluster of bees managed to make it to January without proper wrapping and are not properly protected from severe weather, that those same bees will be worth anything now? Langstroth is quoted as having written: >> ‘January 20, 1857: This month, the coldest on record >> for more than 50 years, had furnished the most >> decisive proof of the correctness of the views >> advanced in this Appendix on wintering bees in the >> open air. My colonies have been exposed to a >> temperature of 30 degrees below zero, the mercury for >> two days never having risen above 6 degrees below, >> and the wind blowing a strong gale the whole time! Allen Dick commented: > ...In my experience around here, bees will look good > and survive until late February when wintered without > wraps and with excessive air flow -- as described. > Some years they may survive into spring in decent > numbers, especially if they were very strong in fall, > and especially if we have a long, open autumn, a mild > winter, and an early spring. However, in other more > normal or extreme years, they may dwindle and/or die > in sufficient numbers to break any beekeeper who > tries this. > FWIW, we've learned that survival rates and hive > condition in January is meaningless. We don't bother > to check much then, since only the poorest hives > succumb by then; we check in March ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Hive record keeping In-Reply-To: <200104212148.RAA14954@listserv.albany.edu>; from cssl@IOL.IE on Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 10:13:28PM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Surely the core item is the hive, a collection of which is a 'yard' or an > apiary. > While database theory seems so boring one must understand that the design of the database schema will be the limiting factor in what the system can and cannot do. The amount of code that is required to perform any function will be dependent on how well the database fits the model. What is a hive? The wood? The bees? The queen? Go into a yard made up of 50 hives, two deeps each with 100 new queens. Now split each hive into two with new queens going in each box (killing the old queens). Now I want to check my database to see which hives have been treated for AFB in the last six months. What answer should I get? > And should we not have a system which allows us to record in plain English, > what transpires every time we visit a hive. If we attempt to categorise all > of the possible events which can occur when we visit a beehive, I really > feel that we will get ourselves into a data overload situation in which it > will be nearly impossible to figure out what actually happened when we went > to the hive. > "Plain english" has advantages as it is free form and allows all kinds of data to be entered without constraints. But to use such a system to try and calculate how much one has spent on medication for a 500 hive operation would not be a simple task (which one may want to do for example when calculating expenses for taxes). Any good system should have the ability to include notations of both specific and general information. Key word serches will help access such things. > I suppose that we could get involved in computerised stock control, as I > tried to do in attempting to have a stock control system of supers etc. > Perhaps in a big operation, that may pay dividends, but in your normal small > operation, the best system of stock control as I have been told many times, > is count the number of items on the shelves. > Small operations that are not trying to generate income would find a simple book the way to go. Outside of the beekeeping world I have found that organizations that do not keep good records can end up wasting a lot of money. This does not mean that a simple ledger is not good records! Computers do things faster, not always better. If you find you are spending more time looking for information than using it, a computer may help. > > Just my views for what they are worth. > They are worth quite a bit. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:31:30 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Incubators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We use an old refrigerator with a thermostat control. The refrigerator = has good insulation. The thermostat control is a chicken incubator unit = that is available over the counter here in Australia. We run the = incubator at 35 degrees centigrade with a pan of water in the bottom for = keeping the humidity high. We use two 40W light bulbs in the bottom for the heat source. We use = rigid construction bulbs as they do not blow like normal bulbs. They = blow because of the bulbs being switched on and off by the thermostat. = We use two bulbs in case one breaks. We originally thought of a bar = heater but reasoned that overrun of temperature on the heating cycle = would be too great. There is no overrun with the light bulbs. Originally we had a small computer fan for air circulation but when it = burned out we found that convection currents were just as efficient and = did not break down. We have been using our unit for 12 years now. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 18:28:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Joe Subject: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! I am doing a paper on killer bees and need it,all the sites i checked were just about it and where it comes from. Please help me email the name befor monday at drpowers@home.com thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:28:16 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Patton Subject: Apimondia's Medicine From the Bees CD In-Reply-To: <200104212021.QAA12571@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have recently have gotten my long awaited copy of the Apimondia CD about honeybees. I want to add or be the first to say that this CD is a most impressive work of art about our Divine honeybees. I would encourage all lovers of the honeybee to buy a copy of this wonderful production. The photos are incrediable and the information is unsurpassed. There are several areas that will be wonderful for presentation purposes. As President for my forth term of the Big Island Beekeepers Association here on the Big Island of Hawaii I will at our next meeting be putting forth the idea of our club working to get copies of this informitive CD into the schools here in Hawaii. Our club will be selling copies of the CD as a fund raiser if any of the readers are interested they may contact me directly.Wishing all a strong and productive spring of beekeeping. walter Patton Drop me aline if visiting Hawaii a paradise place to keep bees.