From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:49 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDms18829 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:49 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDjJ12751 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDjJ12751@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:40 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0104D" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 165238 Lines: 3708 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: Hive record keeping In-Reply-To: <200104220313.XAA23189@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, you wrote: > > > > Surely the core item is the hive, a collection of which is a 'yard' or an > > apiary. > > > What is a hive? The wood? The bees? The queen? Go into a yard made up of > 50 hives, two deeps each with 100 new queens. Now split each hive into > two with new queens going in each box (killing the old queens). > I have written a lengthy post, but I believe that the issues presented here are relevant to the subject. I beg apology from those who feel that the Bee-L is not the appropriate forum for this discussion. The above questions point well to the issues which a software developer must handle. Here are the problems(opportunities, issues, or whatever term is most popular for the day) for the prospective software developer. First, decide _which_ information needs to be stored, produced, and analyzed. (Type of hive? Components of a hive - i.e. are supers assigned to hive, or component of the hive? Placement of hive? Hive attendants- human, here? Inventory - to what detail? Treatments - how much information? Production data - to what detail? Misc. visit information? ad infinitum) Next, decide _how_ information is to be entered(most the time users differ on this point. Computing experience is an issue, as well as the computing device(s) used. Laptops, desktops, and palmtops are signficantly different in their presentation requirements and resource availability). Next, decide how to handle treatment information, re-queening, hive creation/splits(if you don't think this is difficult, look into the archives and see how many different opinions there are on splits and re-queening). Next, decide how to handle the tracking of production yields - and prepare to handle the financial interface to other programs. Next, decide which factors are to be transfered to a split hive(I suspect that this would differ from person to person) Next, choose the appropriate database structure to accomodate the above anwers. Next, choose an appropriate programming tool/language to write the software. Make sure, though, that you are prepared for any changes in the next version of Windows. Finally - or almost finally - write and debug the software. Finally - try to market the software. We have seen on this LIST that the beekeeping industry is under an incredible flux, with the changes in allowed pest treatements, introduction of new pests. Add to this the limited number of available customers for such a software, any person taking on the task of creating software for the bee-keeping industry is courageous - and should be commended and encouraged in their endeavor. With this in mind - a significant point to be pondered remains. What do we expect/desire the software to do for us? Do we expect the software to enable a commercial bee-keeper to employ lesser skilled persons, hoping that the computer will endue them with knowledge and ability? This may seem silly, but I have seen it happen in large corporations and in small offices alike. Will the information be used to more accurately track the effectiveness of new treatments/hive technology? This application will probably work well. Do we hope that if we deliver a handheld computing device to an employee it will make them more productive? This may not be the case, as there are a great number of fantastic employees who fear/distrust/dislike computers, or simply don't want to use them. Do we want to use a computer to assist the manager in their activities? Probably a great tool for this task also. Meanwhile, some of us who work in the computer field work with bees to get away from computers and seek only paper and pencil for aids. But, alas! It is quite complicated to live a simple life in this age. Best wishes to all, Tim Rich "Make sure what you are doing is right with God - then do it with all your strength." George Washington ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:45:02 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Database Beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whilst both Excel and Access can be used to create a database, as has already been mentioned Access is the correct tool for database creation having much more power to "sort" data. However as with all powerful tools they usually require a bit more training in their use. To use Access competently usually either requires a 1 or 2 day course from a professional trainer such as New Horizon or umpteen hours of hard and frustrating self teach - although the self teach CD's available from the software house MS are very good. The other thing to decide prior to creating a database is "what do I want to extract from it eventually" - better to have plenty of individual columns e.g. a "name"column made up of names starting with the titles Mr, Mrs or Ms cannot sort thru' names alphabetically since all names start with M, better to have a column for titles, a seperate column for surnames etc. Having set up a well thought-out database, the power of sorting is however very impressive - but remember to get the bees permission regarding the personnel data recording act -some queens may be sensitive about you holding personal information about them! Alan Riach Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:09:38 +0200 Reply-To: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gilles RATIA Subject: Re: Apimondia's Medicine From the Bees CD In-Reply-To: <200104220409.AAA19111@sphmgaae.compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all, Walter Patton wrote: >>>>>>>> I have recently have gotten my long awaited copy of the Apimondia CD about honeybees. I want to add or be the first to say that this CD is a most impressive work of art about our Divine honeybees. I would encourage all lovers of the honeybee to buy a copy of this wonderful production <<<<<<<< Thanks Walter ;-)) If you would like to buy this amazing CD ROM, go to: http://www.beekeeping.com/cd/us/index.htm Contents: 0, The hive, the oldest laboratory of the world 0,01, Introduction to Apitherapy 0,02, History of bee-keeping 0,03, Apitherapy in history and in religion 0,03,1, The bee and honey according to the Babylonian tradition 0,03,2, The bee and honey in ancient Israel 0,03,3, The bee and honey in pharaonic Egypt 0,03,4, The bee in Islam 0,03,5, The bee and honey in Africa and Madagascar 0,04, History of essential oils 1 Apitherapy and its constituents 1,01, Honey 1,01,1, Honey and the hive 1,01,1,01, Techniques of honey harvesting 1,01,1,02, Techniques of honey processing 1,01,1,03, Sorts of honey 1,01,1,04, Chemical composition of honey 1,01,1,04,1, The main constituents: sugars and water 1,01,1,04,2, Other constituents 1,01,1,04,3, In addition 1,01,1,04,4, The chemical markers of honey 1,01,1,05, Physico-chemical characteristics of honey 1,01,1,06, The crystallisation of honey 1,01,1,07, Fermentation of honey 1,01,2, Honey in apitherapy 1,01,2,01, General properties of honey 1,01,2,02, Antibacterial and antibiotic action of honey 1,01,2,03, Study in vitro on different bacterial strains 1,01,2,04, Energetic action of honey 1,01,2,05, Wound healing action of honey 1,01,2,06, Honey, as a therapeutic vector 1,01,2,07, Geobotanic origins of honey, and their therapeutic properties 1,01,2,08, Manuka honey 1,01,2,09, The contribution of the Meliponini bees 1,01,2,10, Usage and dosage of honey 1,01,2,11, Adverse reactions to honey, counter-indications 1,01,2,12, Honey preservation 1,02, Pollen 1,02,1, Pollen and the hive 1,02,1,01, Techniques of pollen harvesting 1,02,1,02, Pollen sorts, and their geo-botanic origin 1,02,1,03, Chemical composition of pollen 1,02,1,04, The chemical markers of pollen 1,02,1,05, Physiology of pollen grain 1,02,2, Pollen in apitherapy 1,02,2,01, General properties of pollen 1,02,2,02, Biological activity of pollen 1,02,2,03, Medical applications of pollen 1,02,2,04, Invigorating, stimulating, and metabolic activity of pollen 1,02,2,05, Detoxicant and anti-oxidising activity of pollen 1,02,2,06, Antibacterial activity of bee collected pollen 1,02,2,07, Digestive, and anti-inflammatory activity of pollen 1,02,2,08, Cardio-vascular activity of pollen 1,02,2,09, The pollen paradox, facing allergies 1,02,2,10, Pollen and selenium 1,02,2,11, Adverse reactions to pollen, and their treatment 1,02,2,12, Pollen processing and preservation 1,03, Bee bread 1,03,1, Bee bread properties 1,03,2, Nutritional activity of bee bread 1,03,3, Anaerobic fermentation to the health benefit 1,04, Propolis 1,04,1, Propolis and the hive 1,04,1,01, Propolis harvesting techniques 1,04,1,02, Propolis sorts, and their geobotanic origin 1,04,1,03, Chemical composition of propolis 1,04,1,04, Component parts and actions of propolis 1,04,1,05, Physico-chemical properties of propolis 1,04,2, Propolis in apitherapy 1,04,2,01, General properties of propolis 1,04,2,02, Chemical standardisation of Cuban propolis 1,04,2,03, Antibacterial activity of propolis 1,04,2,04, Anti-viral activity of propolis 1,04,2,05, Anti-fungal activity of propolis 1,04,2,06, Cicatrising (wound healing) and regenerating activity of propolis 1,04,2,07, Anti-cancer and immuno-modulatory activity 1,04,2,08, Antimycotic activity of propolis 1,04,2,09, Anaesthetic activity of propolis 1,04,2,10, Antiparasitary (antiparasitic) activity of propolis 1,04,2,11, Anti-inflammatory activity of propolis 1,04,2,12, Antioxidizing activity of propolis 1,04,2,13, The propolis paradox, facing allergies 1,04,2,14, Other properties of propolis, and adverse reactions 1,04,2,15, Preservation of propolis 1,05, Royal jelly 1,05,1, Royal jelly and the hive 1,05,1,01, Royal jelly production techniques 1,05,1,02, Chemical composition of royal jelly 1,05,1,03, Biological Activity of the royal jelly 1,05,2, Royal jelly in apitherapy 1,05,2,01, General properties of royal jelly 1,05,2,02, Medical approach to royal jelly 1,05,2,03, Immunostimulating activity of royal jelly 1,05,2,04, Activity of royal jelly on the metabolism 1,05,2,05, Antibacterial and antiviral activity of royal jelly 1,05,2,06, Regenerating activity of royal jelly 1,05,2,07, Royal jelly and cancer 1,05,2,08, Undesirable reactions to royal jelly 1,05,2,09, Preservation of royal jelly 1,06, Bee venom 1,06,1, Venom and the hive 1,06,1,01, Venom and apitoxin harvesting techniques 1,06,1,02, Chemical composition of venom and apitoxin 1,06,1,03, Physico-chemical differences between venom and apitoxin 1,06,1,04, Biological activity of bee venom 1,06,2, Bee venom in apitherapy 1,06,2,01, Introduction to Bee Venom Therapy 1,06,2,02, General therapeutic properties of venom 1,06,2,03, Cortisone-like, and immuno-stimulating activity of bee venom 1,06,2,04, Normalisation of blood pressure, vasoactive activity 1,06,2,05, Anti-inflammatory activity of bee venom 1,06,2,06, Other effects of venom 1,06,2,07, Adverse reactions to venom, treatments, and antagonistic substances 1,06,2,08, Killer bees: myth or reality? 1,06,2,09, Bee venom preservation 1,06,2,10, Principles of the bee venom therapy 1,07, Beeswax 1,07,1, Beeswax, and the hive 1,07,1,01, Wax harvesting techniques 1,07,1,02, Chemical composition of beeswax 1,07,2, Beeswax in apitherapy 1,07,2,01, General properties of beeswax. Cicatrization (wound healing 1,07,2,02, Wax counter-indications 1,07,2,03, Use of wax in cosmetology 1,07,2,04, Wax preservation 1,08, Bee larvae 1,08,1, Chemical composition of bee larvae 1,08,2, Larvae consuming 1,08,3, General properties of bee larvae 1,09, Aromatic plants and essential oils 1,09,1, Genesis of the essence within the plant 1,09,2, The active parts of the plants 1,09,3, Collection by honeybees 1,09,3,01, Nectar collection by honeybees 1,09,3,02, Pollen collection by honeybees 1,09,3,03, Propolis collection by honeybees 1,09,3,04, Honeydew collection by honeybees 1,09,4, The essential oils 1,09,4,01, Essence and essential oil 1,09,4,02, Distillation techniques for aromatic plants 1,09,4,03, Electric Behaviour and polarity of essential oils 1,09,4,04, Therapeutical properties of the essential oils 1,09,4,05, Origin criteria of an essential oil 1,09,4,06, Treatment and transportation of essential oils 2 Apitherapy and the major pathologies 2,01, Nutritional problems 2,02, Endocrinology 2,02,1, Thyroid 2,02,2, Diabetes 2,02,3, Neuro-endocrino-metabolic disorders, spasmophilia 2,03, Intestinal diseases 2,03,1, Gastro-intestinal diseases, parasitosis 2,04, Hepatobiliary diseases (liver and gall bladder) 2,05, Connective, muscular and bone tissues 2,05,1, Arthritis 2,05,2, Sclerodermia 2,05,3, Rheumatism 2,05,4, Other diseases of the locomotory system 2,06, Bronco-pulmonary diseases 2,07, Nose-Throat-Ears (ORL – Otorhinolaryngology) 2,08, Ophthalmology 2,09, Stomatology 2,10, Dermatology 2,10,1, Bacterial and fungal infections 2,10,2, Wounds, burns, scabs, ulceration's 2,10,3, Benign, malignant and vascular tumours 2,10,4, Psoriasis, eczema 2,10,5, Post – surgical problems 2,11, Haematology and oncology 2,11,1, Anaemias 2,11,2, Blood coagulation (clotting) 2,11,3, Regulation of the lipids level in blood 2,11,4, Cancer 2,11,5, Neoplasms, support to chemotherapy 2,12, Immunological diseases 2,12,1, Allergies 2,12,2, Auto-immune diseases 2,13, Infectious diseases 2,13,1, AIDS 2,13,2, Bacterial and viral infections 2,13,3, Parasitoses 2,14, Neurological diseases 2,14,1, Chronic pains 2,14,2, Memory disorders 2,14,3, Multiple sclerosis 2,14,4, Other neurological diseases 2,15, Psychiatric diseases 2,15,1, Depressions, apathies 2,15,2, Addictions, alcoholism 2,15,3, Surgical aggression (stress) 2,15,4, The stress 2,15,5, Anorexia 2,16, Cardio-vascular diseases 2,16,1, Cardiac problems (complaints) 2,16,2, Circulatory problems (complaints), arteriosclerosis 2,17, Genito-urinary disorders 2,17,1, Prostate hyperplasia 2,17,2, Urinary infections, pyelonephritis 2,17,3, Hydrocele and prostate hypertrophy 2,17,4, Infertility (sterility), impotence, sexual asthenia 2,17,5, Penile diseases (complaints) 2,18, Obstetrics and gynaecology 2,18,1, Obstetrics 2,18,2, Pregnancy high blood pressure 2,18,3, Pre-menstrual syndrome, amenorrhea, dysmenorrhea 2,18,4, Gynaecology 2,18,5, Menopause 2,19, Paediatrics 2,19,1, Disorders of newborn babies 2,19,2, Infections, parasitosis 2,19,3, Baby’s nutrition, dystrophy 2,19,4, Child psychomotility 2,19,5, Congenital anomalies, mongolism 2,20, Physical agents, irradiation 2,21, Special subjects, geriatrics 2,22, Poisonings, intoxications, pollutions 2,23, Veterinary medicine 2,23,1, Nourishment. (Feeding) 2,23,2, Prevention (prophylaxis) and treatment 2,23,3, Bee venom for veterinary use 3, Pharmacology and medical protocols 3,01, Active constituents of the bee products 3,01,1, Nitrogenous compounds 3,01,1,01, Nucleic acids, DNA, RNA 3,01,1,02, Aminoacids 3,01,1,03, The therapeutical action of aminoacids 3,01,1,04, Amines and biogenic amines 3,01,1,05, Peptides 3,01,1,06, Proteins 3,01,1,07, Enzymes 3,01,2, Glucids 3,01,3, Fats 3,01,3,01, Lipids 3,01,3,02, Organic acids and fatty acids 3,01,3,03, Cholesterol 3,01,4, Vitamins 3,01,4,01, Hydrosoluble vitamins (B and C) 3,01,4,02, Liposoluble vitamins (A,D,E,K) 3,01,5, Mineral salts 3,01,5,01, Mineral salts – macroelements 3,01,5,02, Oligo-elements 3,01,6, Plant pigments 3,01,6,01, Carotenoids 3,01,6,02, Flavonoids 3,01,7, Hormones and hormone-like substances 3,01,8, Other active substances 3,02, Active constituents of essential oils, synergies 3,02,1, Chemical base and therapeutical activity of essential oils 3,02,2, Synergies among active constituents 3,03, Pharmaceutical forms 3,03,1, Simple pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,1,01, Bee pollen and bee bread pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,1,02, Pharmaceutical preparations with propolis 3,03,1,03, Royal jelly pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,1,04, Bee venom – Apitoxin pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,1,05, Beeswax pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,1,06, Bee larvae pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,2, Synergetic honey preparations 3,03,2,01, Arohoneys 3,03,2,02, Propohoneys 3,03,3, Other pharmaceutical preparations 3,03,3,01, External usage preparations 3,03,3,02, Internal usage preparations 3,03,3,03, Dentistry preparations and products for other uses 3,03,3,04, Cosmetic preparations 3,03,4, Homeopathic remedy : Apis mellifica 3,04, Medical protocols 3,04,1, Medical preliminaries 3,04,1,01, Safety accompanies competence (ability) 3,04,1,02, The patient plays a large part in his own recovery process 3,04,1,03, The crisis precedes the recovery 3,04,1,04, Life is movement 3,04,2, Bee venom therapy 3,04,2,01, BVT : Therapeutical possibilities 3,04,2,02, Reactions to bee venom, allergies 3,04,2,03, The common sting 3,04,2,04, Other application techniques 3,04,2,05, Quantitative protocols 3,04,2,06, Qualitative protocols 3,04,2,07, Desensitisation to bee venom protocol 3,04,2,08, Practice of Bee Venom Therapy 3,04,2,09, Bee Venom Therapy Workshop 3,04,2,10, Self treatment with bee venom 3,04,2,11, Protocol to follow 3,04,3, Wound healing with honey 3,04,3,01, The pioneers 3,04,3,02, Experiences at CHRU from Limoges 3,04,2,03, Results of wound healing with honey 3,04,3,04, Clinic protocol 3,04,3,05, Evolution of the wound 3,04,3,06, Superinfected wounds in Italy 3,04,3,07, Treatment of major burns victims in Cuba 3,04,4, Aerosols 3,04,5, Bee products in physiotherapy 3,04,5,01, Electrophoresis 3,04,5,02, Ultrasonophoresis 3,04,5,03, Apitoxin iontophoresis 3,04,6, Massages, acupressure and balneotherapy 3,04,7, Medical hygiene, disinfection 3,05, Standardisation and chemotypes 3,05,1, The chemotype, element of quality 3,05,2, Standardisation to avoid pollutants 3,05,3, Quality standards for honey 3,05,3,01, The Codex.alimentarius for honey 3,05,3,02, The unit of hygiene: the UFC content in honey 3,05,3,03, Honey with therapeutic destination 3,05,3,04, "Label "" Preserved Products "" for honey " 3,05,4, Standards of quality of the other hive products 3,05,4,01, Quality standards for pollen 3,05,4,02, Quality standards for the propolis 3,05,4,03, Quality standards for royal jelly 3,05,4,04, Quality standards for apitoxin 3,05,4,05, Quality standards for bees wax 3,05,5, The other standards 3,05,6, Control Methods 4, The humanitarian issues 4,01, Apitherapy, a humanitarian concept of green medicine 4,02, The project of Apitherapy in Cuba 4,02,1, A public health project of national interest 4,02,2, Arohoneys in Cuba 4,03, The Commission of Apithrapy is your partner 5, Facts about the hive and the bee 5,01, Beehive Population 5,01,1, Insect classes and bees species 5,01,2, The female worker 5,01,2,01, Mouth parts and nectar gathering 5,01,2,02, The venom apparatus 5,01,2,03, The legs of the bee 5,01,2,04, The wax secretion apparatus 5,01,3, The queen 5,01,4, The drone 5,01,5, The larvae 5,01,6, The animal-swarm 5,02, The organisation of the hive 5,02,1, The types of hives and apiaries 5,02,2, Social life of the hive 5,02,3, The bridal flight 5,02,4, The food collected by the bee 5,03, Bee-keeping Techniques 6, Apimondia 6,01, Apimondia 6,02, "The Standing Commission on ""Beekeeping Economy""" 6,03, "The Standing Commission on ""Beekeeping Technology and Equipment""" 6,04, "The Standing Commission for ""Pollination and Bee Flora"" (SCPBF)" 6,05, "The Standing Commission on ""Bee Pathology""" 6,06, "The Standing Commission on ""Bee Biology""" 6,07, "The Standing Commission ""Beekeeping for Rural Development""" 6,08, "The Standing Commission of ""Apitherapy""" 6,09, IITEA 7 General Information 7,01, Table of Contents 7,02, Presentations of experts 7,03, Glossary 7,04, Bibliography 7,04,1, Books and thesis 7,04,2, Conferences and lectures 7,04,3, Articles 7,04,4, Miscellaneous 7,05, Web links 7,06, Sponsors 7,06,1, API-AR International LTD 7,06,2, The American Apitherapy Society 7,07, Who are you ? 7,08, Credits Direct order form at: https://ssl.domicile.fr/apiservices.com/cd/us/form.htm Best regards, Gilles RATIA Beekeeping Consultant Webmaster of the "Virtual Beekeeping Gallery" http://www.beekeeping.com President of the Apimondia Standing Commission on Beekeeping Technology and Equipment APISERVICES Beekeeping Development "Le Terrier" F-24420 Coulaures - FRANCE Phone: +33 (0)5 53 05 91 13 Mobile: +33 (0)6 07 68 49 39 Fax: +33 (0)5 53 05 44 57 Do not dial (0) out of France Email: gilles.ratia@apiservices.com Web: http://www.apiservices.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 05:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: cfuller@infi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Carl L. Fuller" Subject: Subject: Re: bee software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D3912B994B79C6CBCF98E509" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D3912B994B79C6CBCF98E509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have used relational data base software called "Everythingl in A ""Nutshell"" for years. Complete purchasing, inventory and equipment history in a hospital engineering section, for years. I designed the package using Nutshell. I had no experience with them before this program, it is very stable and I can change any part of it. Reports are designed to print any format or "appearance" you want. Hence, I make the printout fit the original purchase order form that had been in use for years. The newer version of the software is called "Ultraplus" and is far less clunky than the original. Records possibility far and above anything I can imagine anyone wanting to keep. Probably around $100.00 US, not sure. --------------D3912B994B79C6CBCF98E509 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="cfuller.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Carl L. Fuller Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="cfuller.vcf" begin:vcard n:Fuller;Carl tel;home:757 399-6923 x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:cfuller@infi.net fn:Carl end:vcard --------------D3912B994B79C6CBCF98E509-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 06:06:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris and Janet Sauer Subject: Re: Hive record keeping In-Reply-To: <200104220403.AAA25156@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've been using a handheld Jornada 545 for the past year with our sideline operation. We've numbered all of the hives and have found it is quite easy using a small database program on the Jornada. We chose HandDbase from ddh software, www.ddhsoftware.com. It cost 25.00 and was easy to use. We don't use a large number of fields and some of them are kept hidden until necessary, but overall it has been quite helpful in deciding which hives to split, when, and what treatments are necessary. All of course IMHO, chris Chris and Janet Sauer Colesburg Apiaries www.greathoney.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "W. Allen Dick" wrote: > > Sorry for all the quotes below, but some may recall that this is an old > thread from Sun, 26 Nov 2000. I've been waiting to resurrect it, since it > is right about this time of year that the effects of bad wrapping or no > wrapping become apparent in areas where wrapping is the norm. > > Do people still believe that just because a cluster of bees managed to make > it to January without proper wrapping and are not properly protected from > severe weather, that those same bees will be worth anything now? I did some reearch on this and the finding were that wrapping, when the temp is below 28F on average, is worse for the bees than leaving them unwrapped. Above that temp and wrapping is probably better. It was also interesting to follow that argument since it began back before the turn of the last century, as it is totally counterintuitive that colder is better. All during that time, wrapping and usually heavy wrapping was the norm to overwinter. The key elements in overwintering include a large cluster, good queen, heavy stores (and the right stores), and a well built hive with proper ventilation. Usually you get excellent arguments about ventilation and wrapping and occasionally the kind of stores, not the amount. Experience also comes in but I tend to discount that since we do not know all the variables that are there going into the winter. Both the bees and beekeeper can give skewed results. The type of climate in the area also can give different results. And just becasue you are further north than another beekeeper does not mean you are colder. For instance, I do better than another beekeeper that wraps their hives here in Maine both in the number of bees and colonies that make it thought the winter and honey production. I also do the same as another beekeeper in coming out of the winter. Both have different beekeeping practices so I would expect differences. I am closer to the latter as I value him as a mentor- except in wrapping. >From the other discussion, this thread will change few minds. And it will be back next year, since it has been with us since the 1800s. And the reason is that the results do not fit our common sense or experience, both of which may be wrong. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 08:31:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Hive record keeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Years ago B.C. (before computers). I used a system which was very inexpensive and worked great for keeping track of bee yard hive information. The system was not my idea but a idea I stole from my doctor. After a visit to my doctor for my yearly physical and my doctor told me I was in better health than he was he proceded to record the visit on a tape recorder. I asked him about the reocrding and he said he then gave the cassete to his bookkeeper and she recorded to records. He still uses the system today only now his bookkeeper puts the information on computer. He still doesn't use a handheld computer! So at a garage sale I found a 10 in. long by 2 in. wide cassete recorder. I have still got the recorder and still works but has quite a bit of propolis on it. For tapes I found a lady which sells cassette tapes at flea markets. She gave me boxes of old cassete tapes which were not popular cassetes. She was tired of taking these cassetes to flea markets and bringing home without a sale. She said she wished she had a person to give the unpopular tapes to as she had thrown many boxes in the trash of tapes of unknown and unpopular artists. I recorded my bee information over the material on the old unpopular tapes. On each cassete tape I would place a piece of tape with the date and yards. On the road to each yard I would push in the tape and listen to the comments I had made the last trip out. On a long drive I might listen to the whole years comments about the yard. The reading of a hand held means standing and reading or entering. Precious bee yard time to a busy beekeeper. Reading the hand held computer while driving can be hazardous to your health. I almost had a wreck trying to read and drive. I have seen several UPS drivers trying to work a handheld and drive the truck. Reading your printout from your main computer is still downtime. Transferring the information to your main computer is a nice feature of a hand held but do you really want to transfer all but the most important information? I no longer use the above system for everyday beekeeping but would if I was doing bee research. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri PS I and other employees used a hand held for about 7 years. We recorded the time we started, each break we took and much other useless information.(along with useful information) Took about a hour a day to enter all the information for the company. The handheld made our job harder because the same amount of work was expected by the company and simply wasn't possible. All downdown time entering information. Hard to type on the handheld. Like typing on a calculater. One big complaint I had was the screen was green and the letters black and the hand held was hard to read at times. Choose a handheld if possible with a white background with dark letters. . The handhelds were also always breaking down in those days. These handhelds cost the company around $2500 a piece back then. The batteries had to be charged on a special charger. They were top of the line. Sorry for the long post. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:57:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:32:08 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rod See website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/petjel.html Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman Archives of IBList, website http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman > Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:14:38 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering In-Reply-To: <200104221550.LAA07179@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 22 Apr 2001, Bill Truesdell wrote: > I did some research on this and the finding were that wrapping, when the > temp is below 28F on average, is worse for the bees than leaving them > unwrapped. Above that temp and wrapping is probably better. Hi Bill: This seems totally different from our experience in Alberta. Bees that are not wrapped only survive very mild winters and do not have enough bees in the spring to do very well. Wrapped ones are boiling over with bees in the spring and can easily be split with both splits producing a honey crop. It seems that leaving them wrapped until mid May produces best results, although there is sometimes a problem with early swarming. You must have ventilation to get rid of the moisture produced by respiration. Top entrances work well and open screened bottom boards seem to as well. It is crucial that there be enough bees to start with in the fall and they must have sufficient stores, preferably from feed made with sucrose. This is definitely better than stores consisting of all honey. For early build up in the spring it is necessary that they have lots of pollen. It is possible that there are actually 3 temperature regimes to consider. Maybe wrapping bees in weather above 28F enables them to continue in a normal fashion, wrapping in temperatures 28F to 10F(?) encourages them to forage or raise brood that they cannot feed or keep warm enough, and wrapping below 10F is required to ensure survival. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill ,Allen & All, I agree with most of the things Bill has said up to a point. The main reason most beekeepers wrap hives is so the bees can handle rapid drops in temperature. I added this important point back in the last discussion. We all have seen hives dead because the bees couldn't return to the cluster fast enough. Clusters split and bees cought in feeders. Wraps are usually done in areas of rapid fast drops in temperatures . In the plains states we can get a drop of over 40F in a few hours. Cold may not kill bees but getting cought away from the cluster and without honey will. Many bee books state this fact about wrapping. Another point about wrapping which can't be discounted is the warming effect of black tar paper by the sun on a cold January day. Many beekeepers will say (those that don't or have never wrapped) this warming effect causes bees to fly into the cold air and die. I have never seen this happen any more with wrapped than on unwrapped hives. To irk me my friends will also say my beloved Italians will fly out in the snow bank and die when their beloved Carniolans won't. Always differences of opinions in beekeeping. Every beekeeper you ask will give a different answer. Bill & I agreed on this fact on Bee-L a long time ago. Wrapping is a lot of work and storage of the materials is a pain. I personally do not wrap (now) but wished the hives had been wrapped last winter. Richard Adee wraps over 10,000 hives west of me in Kansas each year. If wrapping didn't pay I don't believe he would be wrapping. I have been getting by without wrapping because we have had very warm winters the last decade. Hobby beekeepers mainly want a live hive in spring. Bees flying in and out of the entrance and they are all smiles. The beekeeper keeping bees for a living needs a large population of bees in the spring. Commercial beekeepers polinate Apples in the Midwest first week of April. Many beekeepers hives other than commercial beekeepers at this time have got a cluster about the size of a softball ( basketball????). Hardly enough to get a polination fee for. I do agree with my friend Bill about the key to wintering begains the fall before. Hives not properly prepaired the fall before stand a poor chance of surviving. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:32:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/22/01 12:44:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rodsbug@AOL.COM writes: > Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? > Petroleum jelly I have heard of to keep the propolis from sticking too well. What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Subject: Re: bee software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: bee software > > If you were to design a relational database what would you key on? Would you > > assign hive bodies numbers? Things are so interchangeable I would wonder what > > the core of the record keeping would revolve around. > > The main unit in my outfit is the bee yard. However there are other units of > interest such as hives and areas and treatments. ALLEN Could the numeric sequence be used to break things down to the smallest detail? IE Yard #; Hive #; Date; - 05-18-04232001 Mike Stoops Lower Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:11:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Combination of miticides for Varroa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Two days after I wondered about alternating miticides, my reading of the April issue of Bee Culture advanced to page 26. There I learned that Dr. Patti Elzen advocated using Coumaphos for two years then one of Apistan and then two more of Coumaphos. This means people will not be fretting about Varroa tolerance of Apistan any more, won't it? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:52:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Hive record keeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am now building up a hive recording system using Excel. As a start set up and Excel Spreadsheet with the following columns Date Temperature Location of Yard Hive Number Narration (what happened at the hive) Number of supers put on the hive Number of supers taken off the hive Bees' Temperament Use this spreadsheet and improve on it as you go along. Perhaps BEE-L could be updated as time goes on. Then we may end up with a very solid spreadsheet based on experience. What do we think of this approach? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Langstroth on Wintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Donald & All, Donald wrote: It is crucial that there be enough bees to start with in the fall and they must have sufficient stores, preferably from feed made with sucrose. Bob wrote: I believe Donald has made a excellent point. It has been quite a while since I have had to winter bees in a Missouri winter like we just had . The second coldest November & December in a 100 years followed by the wetist spring since 1892. My main problem was dysentary. Although not a big problem all hives with noticable dysentary died by early spring. Dysentary around the entrance and on top bars. Not nosema as I treated last fall plus did random testing this spring. In my opinion dysentary is related to winter stores. I would welcome other opinions. I see Donald is wintering on sucrose. I wintered on fructose . I plan to switch to sucrose this fall even though the switch will be labor intensive. Are there other Canada beekeepers in the colder areas wintering on fructose or do all winter on sucrose? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:57:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit apis mellifera scutellata is the official name for the AHB, or "killer bee". George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:38:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Daniel Brown Subject: Re: Database beekeeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a former employee at Microsoft, now turned beekeeper, I have an intere= st in the intersection of the software world and the beekeeping world. =20 Alan Riach suggests using Microosft Access to create a hive/yard database= . While I commend him for choosing a Microsoft product, I have to say th= at Access may tend toward overkill for the needs of most beekeepers, whet= her hobbyists or commerical keepers. I prefer to use the database module = in Microsoft Works, which I find to be more than adequate for tracking th= e goings on in my four beeyards. The Works database is MUCH easier to lea= rn to use than Access yet still allows for a great deal of flexibility in= designing your database as well as in searching for particular sets of i= nformation once the database is designed and implemented. I'd be glad to = share the particular fields I use with anyone who cares to email me. Cheers from Western Washington Dan Brown browns4@msn.com
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer= at http://explorer.msn.com
========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 07:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: report on *Mites of the Honey Bee* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I finnished reading the new book *Mites of the Honey Bee* edited by Thomas C. Webster & Keith S. Delaplane. I still recommend the book for all beekeepers. The book is easy to read. At the end of each chapter is a list of sources. A couple chapters list almost a 100 sources. You can go directly to American Bee Journal articles and read the articles they are quoting from. Chapter 1-9 deals with tracheal mites. Chapter 10- 17 deals with varroa. Chapter 18 deals with other mites around the world which infest bees but not in America. The book is a excellent starting book for those beekeepers interested in mites. All bee clubs should order the book right away to support the authors of the book so other books might be written in the future. I believe all beekeepers should buy the book for reference. If I had edited the book I would have expanded several areas. I would have included a chapter on bee viruses by Norman Carreck of the United kingdom. Carreck is doing the research Bailey started. Carreck has sent me graphs and research on viruses as yet unpublished which may change the way we look at mites. All through the book I kept waiting for the book to talk about varroa destructer. In chapter 15 Marla Spivak hints at varroa destructor. Finnally in chapter 18 the book talks about varroa destructor. Chapter 10-17 are written in the old varroa J. text which is the way the now outdated Varroa handbook is. It is amazing that we are learning things about varroa so fast that a book published in 2001 could actually be behind research when published. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "What we don't know is so vast that saying what we do know is absurd" Dr. Michael Mahoney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:04:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: BEE-L: approval required (E0550CDA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I am struck that no one is suggesting a combination miticide attack. > Alternating Apistan and Coumaphos. I recall that the active ingredients in Apistan and Coumaphos are a bad combination, and to be avoided. I don't recall the specifics, but details are in the archives somewhere. Aaron Morris - thinking witches's brew! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:24:50 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodsbug@AOL.COM asked: > Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? Sounds like a mess. I would hesitate to introduce a foreign substance into the hive on an ongoing basis. No telling what the bees might do with it. As bees will remove wax from Plasticell in late summer, or scavenge from drawn comb (seemingly at random), I would suspect that the paraffin would also be "scavenged", and incorporated into wax for cappings or other purposes. While this may be harmless, I wonder how you would isolate the paraffin from the wax when rendering your wax to recycle it. I use the plain metal frame rests in brood chambers (sold by Dadant, and I am sure also sold by others) and I use Strollers 9-frame spacers in the honey supers. The metal surfaces keep the propolized-frame problem under control. Propolis does not glue metal to wood as well as it glues wood to wood. There are also the "ridged" frame rests, which reduce the surface upon which the frame ear rests to a double-thickness of sheet metal. I do not use these, as one would need to cut a deeper-cut frame rest "shoulder" in the wood to preserve a consistent bee space. Another trick I use in dealing with propolis is one that was demonstrated by Jerry Hayes in one of his entertaining "bee gadgets" presentations. One takes thin some piano wire, guitar string, or other high-strength wire, and attaches it to two handles. The wire is then slowly pulled between two supers to break any propolis bonds created by the bees. This eliminates the prying required to break supers apart, and thereby reduces wear and tear on the corners of supers. I would not pull too fast, or one might kill bees on top bars with the wire. I did not jot down the name of the inventor of this technique, but I owe him a "thank you". ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Piano Wire (Was Frames) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > One takes thin some piano wire, guitar string, or other high-strength wire, > and attaches it to two handles. > > The wire is then slowly pulled between two supers to break any propolis > bonds created by the bees. This eliminates the prying required to break > supers apart, and thereby reduces wear and tear on the corners of supers. > > I would not pull too fast, or one might kill bees on top bars with the wire. This is precisely why I never cared for the piano wire method, bee carnage! I prefer to use two hive tools, one to pry the top body up just enough to fit the other tool in to pry the bottom frame (one frame at a time) from the top frame. A bit of work, but no sliced bees. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:40:37 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: Resistant Varroa In-Reply-To: <200104210100.VAA10209@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit An integrated approach to mite control is exactly what is needed, using biomechanical methods as well as organic acids/essential oils and other effective products, where legal and practicable. However, alternating Apistan with a coumaphos-based product may be OK as a short-term measure, where varroa pyrethroid resistance levels are not high (requires total abstention from using pyrethroid hive treatments in the area for at least 2 years) but maybe not for the long-term. In Italy and Spain, where both tau-fluvalinate and coumaphos have been used for quite some time, resistance to both classes of compound has arisen. Moreover it seems that there could be a cross-resistance between the two classes in the varroa mite; once they are resistant to pyrethroids, they may have some resistance confirmed to organophosphates and vice versa. Evidence to this effect is building but not concrete as yet. This may be different in North America as I understand the mechanism(s) of pyrethroid resistance in varroa there are different to the known European resistance mechanisms. The answer must be to use several different approaches to varroa or other bee disease control, within and/or between seasons wherever possible, to minimise the risk of resistance emergence and to prolong the lifespan of all treatments available. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7NE UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 http://www.vita-europe.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:47:00 +0100 Reply-To: medutis@centras.lt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gediminas Ţilinskas Subject: Beekeeping in Lithuania Comments: cc: gedzili@is.lt Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1257 Hello all, Welcome to the Beekeeper’s Page “Medutis” -http://www.is.lt/medutis/main.htm Best regards, GEDIMINAS -- Nemokamas elektroninis pađtas. http://mail.centras.lt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:01:04 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! > apis mellifera scutellata is the official name for the AHB, or "killer bee". > > George Imirie Apis mellifera scutellata is a subspecies or race of honey bee from southern Africa that was introduced into Brazil in the 1950s. Africanized honey bees are hybrids resulting from matings between queens and drones of that subspecies and those of European subspecies already present in the New World. Tom Culliney, Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814 U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 Fax: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:10:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Piano Wire (Was Frames) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >This is precisely why I never cared for the piano wire method, bee carnage! > I prefer to > use two hive tools, one to pry the top body up just enough to fit the other > tool in to pry > the bottom frame (one frame at a time) from the top frame. A bit of work, > but no sliced bees. reply: Why don't you pop the supers and twist to break the comb. Works good and quickly. Very few if any bees are injured. Save the other hive tool for when you misplace it. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 23:44:34 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Frames Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rodney, >Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? I have a top bar hive, and each top bar is somewhat triangular in shape. The apex (i think) or the "V" shaped part opposite the top is what the bees build their comb down from. I rub this with wax to give the bees a scent that provides a starting point from which to draw the wax. I happen to use 50:50 beeswax parafin because I have it on hand for batik. It melts at a slightly higher temperature (due to the parafin) than bees wax which makes it easier to work with on hot days. Hope this helps. Carol Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Frames Comments: To: James Fischer In-Reply-To: <200104231528.f3NFSss16004@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's possible that Rodsbug@AOL.COM is referring to "paraffin oil" rather than paraffin. The former is a thinned mixture which is used as a penetrating wood preservative. There would be very little of this remaining on the surface after application of one coat. In the States, at least, I believe most people understand paraffin to be the solid wax used to seal jelly jars, among other things. At room temperature it is a solid which appears much like candle wax. On Mon, 23 Apr 2001, James Fischer wrote: > Rodsbug@AOL.COM asked: > > > Has anyone ever heard of putting paraffin on the end of top bars? > > Sounds like a mess. I would hesitate to introduce a foreign > substance into the hive on an ongoing basis. No telling what the > bees might do with it. > > As bees will remove wax from Plasticell in late summer, or scavenge > from drawn comb (seemingly at random), I would suspect that the > paraffin would also be "scavenged", and incorporated into wax for > cappings or other purposes. While this may be harmless, I wonder > how you would isolate the paraffin from the wax when rendering your > wax to recycle it. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:11:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (E0550CDA) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I am struck that no one is suggesting a combination miticide attack. > > Alternating Apistan and Coumaphos. > > I recall that the active ingredients in Apistan and Coumaphos > are a bad > combination, and to > be avoided. I don't recall the specifics, but details are in > the archives > somewhere. There was some thoughts that it will take N generations of mites before Apistan will be useful against a mite population that had become resistant. Rotation would only continue the resistance. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:27:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thomas W. Culliney wrote: > Apis mellifera scutellata is a subspecies or race of honey bee from southern > Africa that was introduced into Brazil in the 1950s. Africanized honey bees > are hybrids resulting from matings between queens and drones of that > subspecies and those of European subspecies already present in the New > World. Well, the experiment as originally envisioned was that the African and Europeans would hybridize and result in a more productive honeybee in a tropical region, combining the productivity and relative (to scutellata) low swarming with the more tolerant to tropical climates traits of scutellata. When scutellata "escaped" it was hoped that "natural hybridization" would take place and the defensiveness of scutellata would be toned down by European honeybees. This has pretty much played out to be vision and hope, not based in reality. Scutellata has remained relatively pure in its immigration. Small swarms of scutellata invade European hives, and eventually take it over via theiloky(SP?). I'm sure I have the term incorrect here. It's the trait where a worker can lay a fertilized egg. Anyway, the small swarm invades the European colony, a worker lays a fertile egg, a scutella queen results, kills the European queen and the colony is eventually Africanized, not hybridized. I forgot who presented this at ABF in San Diego, but her credentials are believeable. Perhaps Allen will remember her name. Other references: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9002&L=bee-l&P=R786 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9712A&L=bee-l&P=R258 The short of it is, scutellata is remaining pure and to keep European bees in a scutellata areas requires regular queening with queens of known lineage. Aaron Morris - thinking George is the man! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:42:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just put two supers on today (VA) when these are full and I add the second super should it go one top of the one I now have are under. The second super will not have any drawn comb. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:45:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Queen exculder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year I didn't use one and had no problems with the queen moving up into the super just wanted ideas from others. Rodney ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 08:52:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Supering and queen excluders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rodney, Both these topics (supering and queen excluders) are covered EXTENSIVELY in the archives. BEE-L archives are easy to search at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html Specific answers you will find in the archives to your questions are: Supering: Some say top, some say bottom. Recommendation: since it's foundation not drawn comb, bottom supering is better. Queen excluders: some swear by them, some swear at them. It's personal preference. If you don't use them, sooner or later you'll end up with brood in your honey supers and perhaps a queen in your honey house. Learn to use them and you'll find them a valuable tool. Some call them "Honey Excluders", but I think those who do haven't learned how to use them. Results may vary, depending on location, season, experience, preference and hair color. Aaron Morris - thinking learn your tools! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:58:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! In-Reply-To: <200104241236.f3OCaHs28991@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I forgot who presented this at ABF in San Diego, but her > credentials are believable. Perhaps Allen will remember her name. Gloria DeGrandi-Hofman. We were expecting Erickson in that time slot, but she came in his place. and gave a very fascinating talk. As it happens I wrote the following speculative piece last night in response to an ongoing thread between John and Barry on a somewhat related topic on sci.agriculture.beekeeping, Some of these ideas have appeared here before: --- Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: Re: swarm lures (and ahb) From: allend@internode.net (Allen Dick) It was written on sci.agriculture.beekeeping: >> More that was written: >> "The truth is that killer, or Africanized, bees have been living >> quietly in the United States for at least 30 years. >> They are descendants of the same group that's been flying north from >> South America, but these killer bees arrived a tad sooner, compliments >> of the mail and the U.S. Department of Agriculture. >> In fact, Africanized bees were mixing with common bees in the United >> States as early as the mid-1800s, according to a 1973 article in Bee >> World, citing bee breeders who brought them over from Africa to mix >> with domestic hives." As long as I have kept bees, it has been common knowledge that bees from African sources were brought to the USA and used in open breeding in the mid twentieth century -- long before the familiar and dreaded South American (AHB) hybrid migrated north thru Mexico. When wintering bees in Alberta became necessary in the mid-1980s after decades of dependency on disposable US package bees, the wintering success rate was much lower than historical records for this country indicated should be the case. At that time, and periodically since, some of us have speculated that there must be an African component in US bees that reduces clustering and wintering ability compared to the bees used in Canada before the mid-twentieth century when package bees became the fashion. As for the US importations, it is unthinkable that imported African bee stock kept in hives outdoors could have been reliably prevented from getting into local bee populations -- if anyone even thought of it. After all, I assume that the breeders felt the stock was superior and there would have been little concern about preventing escape. Moreover, it *may* be possible to keep the queens clipped and confined, but any practicing beekeeper knows that drones will *always* get out somehow and the effect will be similar, although more diluted. As for the South American importation, I am always astounded that it was not foreseen by Dr. Kerr, a wise and experienced beekeeper, that -- even if queens were never accidentally released -- that drones would be at large and that they carried the same genes. I can only assume that the concern about the escape of the queens was initially over loss of the precious queens, rather than the eventual impact on beekeeping throughout the Americas. I doubt that anyone even foresaw this adverse effect at the time, or the importation would never have happened the way it did. Why other repeated importations, both deliberate & accidental, of African bees into the USA did not produce a dominant, vicious, non-hoarding and swarmy hybrid like the one that developed in Brazil and recently migrated up from South America is a question that deserves some thought. Perhaps there was, somewhere in the import group in Brazil, an unusual individual from some sub-variety that is not commonly encountered. Perhaps one of the South African readers of this group could indicate if there are subgroups or local varieties of the African bee with very different and aggressive characteristics. Perhaps also, the bees on the vanguard of the invasion are naturally a self-selecting, exaggerated version of the AHB -- those which are most swarmy and most restless. Once the bees colonize and fill an area, perhaps less wild, more settled and productive characteristics dominate the population more and more over time as they adapt. After all, it makes sense that those that spread out the most quickly would be the swarmiest and most adventurous ones, but the others would eventually catch up, especially if their characteristics are already intermingled with the genes of the vanguard and thus carried with the vanguard. Eventually the more settled and productive characteristics may even out-compete the original traits. As the migration slows, the bees may adapt and become less troublesome and more like the bees we know and love. After all, the wild characteristics do not work in the bees' favour in the USA. Those that can fit in and co-operate with humans are not sought out and killed, but fed and coddled and moved from state to state. My understanding is that over time these bees have become less of a problem in South America and that huge amounts of honey are produced there. I know little more than that... allen My (boring) diary can be found at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gary P Johns/ets/relat/Okstate Subject: Mating flight or failed swarm? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All, Was home for lunch when the wife shouted something about a swarm! Sure enough this hive was boiling bees out ninety to nothing. First some history on the hive. This hive had swarmed a week ago and I was lucky enough to get the queen and a cupful of bees. Her wing was clipped so she couldn't go far and the main swarm had taken off looking for her. She was only about 10 feet in front of the hive on the ground. So I took her and the bees with her and put them in a new brood box. Pulled 2 frames of capped brood and bees plus 1 frame of honey from the hive, put foundation and a hive feeder in and closed it up. Pretty soon here comes this HUGE cloud of bees back into the original hive. Today here comes another swarm of bees out. Or was it a mating flight? Lasted about 15 minutes and everybody started going back in to the hive. I know this hive had 4 queen cells in it after the first swarm because I broke it completely down and looked at all the frames. Found at least 1 queen cell open so closed the whole thing back up and now I'm just waiting for brood. Never saw any inclination to gather on a tree limb and the main cloud seemed to be at least 20 feet or so in the air. I really think it was a mating flight, but guess time will tell. Anyway it was a unique and interesting experience. Gary Johns ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > As for the South American importation, I am always astounded that it was > not foreseen by Dr. Kerr, a wise and experienced beekeeper, that -- even if > queens were never accidentally released -- that drones would be at large > and that they carried the same genes. I can only assume that the concern > about the escape of the queens was initially over loss of the precious > queens, rather than the eventual impact on beekeeping throughout the > Americas. I doubt that anyone even foresaw this adverse effect at the > time, or the importation would never have happened the way it did. > Please, is there no one who will step forward with the true story ? The rumor has been for decades that this was not triggered by an accidental release, but that queens were being bred and distributed from the imported african stock. Does anyone know the truth about this? - or is it academic at this point? As for the initial introduction of the african bees into Brazil in the 1950s, Dr. Kerr's writings show that he was well aware of the temper of many african bees, and that he personally selected from gentler, more manageable stocks in Africa. After several of these importations failed because of problems in shipping, he arranged with a beekeeper (from Angola, I believe) to ship more (unselected) bees. Guess what - those arrived alive and healthy, and became the base for his attempted improvement of Brazilian bee stocks. It's just too bad they were the nasty ones. > > Why other repeated importations, both deliberate & accidental, of African > bees into the USA did not produce a dominant, vicious, non-hoarding and > swarmy hybrid like the one that developed in Brazil and recently migrated > up from South America is a question that deserves some thought. Perhaps > there was, somewhere in the import group in Brazil, an unusual individual > from some sub-variety that is not commonly encountered. Prob., IMHO, because the "front" of bees, as it moves into an area, is pure pioneer swarms. Requeening seems to be futile when dealing with these puppies. When faced with literally thousands of identical swarms flying north, few beekeeping operations survived. I don't know if anyone ever has figured out if there is a lethal gene expressed in the first generation of ahb/ehb crosses, but the queens tend to die. Of course, it could be behavioral, which gets us back to the kinship recognition studies of a few years ago (you don't want to go there). > > Perhaps also, the bees on the vanguard of the invasion are naturally a > self-selecting, exaggerated version of the AHB -- those which are most > swarmy and most restless. You got it ! - John, Tucson (ALL opinions are, of course, my own) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:00:19 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: What I am working out from! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I took my time and put up a copy of the palm DBF as an exel version 4 file so that you can see and take from this what you think is usefull in your apiari. Pleas dont forget to use one of the short notes to what you have to do next. Planing is a very esential part of beekeeping. If possible be three weeks ahead of the bees :-) http://apimo.dk/palm_yar.xls Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software 10-04-2001 added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:08:31 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Morris" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 2:27 AM Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! Aaron wrote: > Small swarms of > scutellata invade European hives, and eventually take it over via > theiloky(SP?). I'm sure I have the term incorrect here. It's the trait > where a worker can lay a fertilized egg. Anyway, the small swarm invades > the European colony, a worker lays a fertile egg, a scutella queen results, > kills the European queen and the colony is eventually Africanized, not > hybridized. You were aiming at the right term, thelytoky, a form of parthenogenesis or virgin birth, in which (usually) diploid females are produced from unfertilized eggs. The trait is exhibited by many insect groups. However, you seem to have gotten the subspecies mixed up. It's the Cape honey bee, A. m. capensis, from southernmost Africa, that will invade (via drifting workers) colonies of other subspecies, like scutellata, and establish its own queens through thelytoky. A scutellata colony rapidly becomes a capensis one, but, accompanying this, there is often a breakdown in colony order, with the result that the population may ultimately abscond or die out. See the article by M.H. Allsopp and R.M. Crewe in the February 1993 issue of the American Bee Journal for an account of how these unusual bees potentially threaten South African apiculture, which relies on scutellata. Tom Culliney, Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814 U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 Fax: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:04:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John wrote: Please, is there no one who will step forward with the true story ? The rumor has been for decades that this was not triggered by an accidental release, but that queens were being bred and distributed from the imported african stock. Does anyone know the truth about this? - or is it academic at this point? Bob wrote: A friend of mine worked at the Baton Rouge bee lab during the era of the release. Later he became a commercial beekeeper and we became friends. We have talked a great deal about Dr. Kerr. He says Dr. Kerr ALWAYS told him the release was accidental. The whole release could have been prevented with a queen/ drone trap on the hives. Dr. Kerr created quite a stir later went he shipped semen to Baton Rouge. What he in fact sent was semen from bees which he had bred the aggressive gene out and isolated a important gene. If you search a post I did last year (2000) you will find the year,month and page number of the American Bee Journal article about Dr. Kerr shipping the semen. The article explains that AHB were not sent as per rumor among beekeepers. I tried to pull the post up from the archives but without luck. I looked through 20 years of ABJ to find the information for the post giving the Dr. Kerr information. Maybe we can repost for those interested. I just received a call from my son his wife has gave birth to my third grandson so headed to the hospital. Sincerely, Grandpa Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:22:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Supers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have done it both ways and it does not seem to make any difference with a GOOD nectar flow. However, if the nectar flow is weak, it might be better to "bottom" super, i.e., put the foundation super close to the brood chamber. If you are using IMIRIE SHIMS, then it makes no difference. Hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:45:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Queen exculder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a question like: Last year I had a Ford truck, but this year some have suggested a Chevrolet. What does the group think? Some "unfair referees" refer to queen excluders as "honey excluders". For 69 years, I have always used queen excluders, and have always averaged a higher honey production than most beekeepers near me. I WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE THE QUEEN IS IN A HONEY PRODUCTION COLONY, and not have to guess or hope. I still raise a good bit of comb honey, and I surely don't want any brood mixed up in that. It is true that sometimes bees have to be "enticed" to go through the queen excluder, particularly in a weak nectar flow. However this is no problem at all if you "bait" the super, by putting the first super on with no queen excluder in place, wait about a week until the bees have filled 2-3 frames with nectar or even bit of brood, then add a queen excluder and make sure you have put the queen back in the brood chamber where she belongs. You have now BAITED the super, and the bees will readily go through the excluder. Of course, if you are using IMIRIE SHIMS, there is no reason for forager bees to go through the brood chamber at all, for they can leave the colony to forage via the Imirie Shim and return by the same route. Hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:26:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hesitate to pursue this, but my reference below was not to the distribution or not of queens in the U.S., but in Brazil before the legendary "escape of the 26". I worked in the same building and beeyards with Steve Taber for about ten years, so I am well aware of the Baton Rouge connections and project. - JE Bob & Liz wrote: > John wrote: > > rumor has been for decades that this was not triggered by an accidental > release, but that queens were being bred and distributed from the imported > african stock. > Bob wrote: > A friend of mine worked at the Baton Rouge bee lab during the era of the > release. Later he became a commercial beekeeper and we became friends. We > have talked a great deal about Dr. Kerr. He says Dr. Kerr ALWAYS told him > the release was accidental. The whole release could have been prevented with > a queen/ drone trap on the hives. > Dr. Kerr created quite a stir later (when) he shipped semen to Baton Rouge. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:23:12 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Africanised bee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It may seem strange me putting in a bit from down under but for what it = is worth. We in Australia have been very conscious that we could get Africanised = bees (insert killer bee if you must) here in Australia. Our contingency = planning was on the basis that a swarm may come on a ship and that swarm = could start the ball rolling. So one queen, the start of an invasion. One year, Dr. Robert Page was invited to one of our beekeeping = conferences and several of us had a specific meeting with him to discuss = the threat of Africanized bees. He said that in Brazil, there was a program in place where queen or = cells, I forget which, where breed off the imported African bees and = distributed to beekeepers around. So when the "escape" happened, there = were already many hives headed by Africanised bees in the area to = provide a ready source of drones. =20 So he assured us that if we got one swarm in Australia, the dilution = factor would be at hand and we would not have any problems such as was = the case in Brazil. Also with the Africanized bees, I have been told that what happens is = that the small swarm alights on a hive of European bees, waits till = dark, moves in and kills the European queen and the Africanized queen in = the small swarm takes over the hive. Hence it becomes Africanised. I = cannot remember who it was but I remember at the time that I thought it = very creditable because of the person telling the story. Also I have read of importations of Africanized queens into the USA . I = seem to recall it was an article by Steve Taber. Maybe someone who know = Steve could check with him. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Upcoming PBS Special on Biotech and Food Altering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There has been much talk and debate on the Bee lists, agricultural circles and in the general public about Genetically modified foods. For those of you interested, tonight on PBS Television there is scheduled a two hour long program on Biotechnology and genetically altered food. In the Central time-zone the program runs 8-10pm (CDT). I have included a synopsis of the program I pulled from the PBS website below. I am not sure if this program is being run to a national audience at this date and time, check your local listings. I have read that this program will be a good primer to those wanting to catch-up with what is going on in Biotechnology and its association with Agriculture. We will have to wait and see... (synopsis from website) Harvest of Fear: A Frontline/NOVA Special FRONTLINE and NOVA team up for an investigative look at the controversial advancements that biotech scientists have made in genetically altering food. A gene from a firefly is placed in a potato plant, making it light up whenever it needs watering. In Africa, rice plants are genetically transformed to produce vitamin A, preventing millions of African children from going blind. Crops are engineered so that they can grow in contaminated soil. Plants are modified to produce plastic or pharmaceuticals. These are just a few of the touted benefits of genetically modified agriculture -- the use of genetic engineering to alter crops for the benefit of mankind. Proponents believe that this unprecedented power has the potential to end world hunger, yet critics say that scientists are tampering with nature, risking potentially irreversible ecological disaster. Harvest of Fear The arguments over genetically enhanced foods, from the proponents who see great nutritional and economic benefits to opponents who predict ecological disaster. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:56:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, I hope that I am not too "abrupt" for you, but you surely know very little about beeKEEPING. You better do a good bit of reading about "How to keep bees". Clipping a queen's wings to prevent swarming is as obsolete as women's corsets, because it does not stop swarming, but may delay it for a few days. A queen does NOT lead a swarm. In fact, she usually has to be PUSHED OUT of the hive, and then joins in the clustered group of bees hanging someplace nearby. If she can't fly, she can't join, so the bees will break cluster in about an hour or so and return to the hive. The queen quite often dies without ever walking back to the hive, but if she gets back, the bees might even kill her. In either event, the bees usually will swarm with the FIRST VIRGIN QUEEN that emerges. The hive that you have put the old queen in with a few bees and some brood might survive as a split if you feed it for the next 4 months, unless your area has a continuing nectar flow from now until September. You mentioned "waiting for brood" Most of the time, beginners are not aware of the presence of a virgin queen in their colony. If the bees decide to remain home and not swarm, a virgin queen emerges from swarm cell and does not go out to mate for about 6 days (and then only if the weather is nice and ONLY in the afternoon, never the morning). She starts laying a few eggs about 2-3 days later. Eggs do not hatch into larva for 3 days. Hence, about the earliest a beginner can see evidence of young larva is 11-12 days after the virgin queen emerges from her queen cell; so don't surmise your hive is queenLESS too quick and order a new queen because she will just be killed by the new virgin queen. You surely did not see a mating flight! When a queen embarks on her mating flight, there is some minor excitement at the hive entrance involving a few bees, but only a highly experienced beekeeper would notice this. WHAT should you read? Due to tracheal mites being found in 1984, varroa mites in 1987, Africanized bees entering the US in 1990, the small hive beetle in 1998, and now resistant American Foul Brood disease, all books written before about 1992 are obsolete because they do not cover these problems which are THE problems of the past decade. You are obviously a beginner or very uninformed, so I strongly suggest the "best" beginner's book ever written (stated by Roger Morse and I agree), The Beekeeper's Handbook, 3rd Edition of April 1998, by Dr. Diana Sammataro. If you are not too mad with me, I suggest you read my PINK PAGES which are a monthly writing aimed at "Upgrading beeHAVERS to beeKEEPERS". I have been writing these for a number of years for my own Maryland beekeepers, and the Web site managers tell me they get over 10,000 hits per month, so I have to assume that many like George's PINK PAGES. They appear on the Internet at: www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click on "bee articles" or www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html I hope that I have helped. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Starting my 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:47:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re: Frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What someone told me (I Don't remember who) but the paraffin is used so the bees don't wax up the ends of the top bars, it is only placed on the ends of the top bars. Rodsbug ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Grandpa Harrison wrote: > If you search a post I did last year (2000) you will find the year, month > and page number of the American Bee Journal article about Dr. Kerr shipping > the semen. The article explains that AHB were not sent as per rumor among > beekeepers. I tried to pull the post up from the archives but without luck. It was Sat, 25 Nov 2000 http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011D&L=bee-l&P=R1612 Aaron Morris - thinking search the archives at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: cde049 Subject: Re: Hive record keeping In-Reply-To: <200104222222.SAA17119@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am now building up a hive recording system using Excel. Using a program called "Documents To Go" from DataViz you can take and use your Excel spread sheet on your hand held. Then Sync it up so both machines have the same information at all times. Cliff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:34:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for the kill er bee quick!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > You were aiming at the right term, thelytoky, ... Yes, I knew I was in the ballpark; even spent a good deal of time searching the dictionary and perusing the archives trying to come up with the term. In all my years I haven't figured how to look up something I know I don't know. > The trait is exhibited by many insect groups. However, you seem to have gotten the subspecies > mixed up. It's the Cape honey bee, A. m. capensis, from southernmost Africa, that will invade > (via drifting workers) colonies of other subspecies, like scutellata, and establish its > own queens through thelytoky. I was also aware of the cape bee vs. scutellata, almost quoted the article but did not as the BEE-L guidelines frown on excessive quotes of previously posted material. The point I was making is that Gloria DeGrandi-Hofman asserted that scutellata exhibits thelytoky as it migrates northward and this may be a possible explanation for the majority of bees in a "colonized" area showing AHB DNA. Getting back to the original point, AHB and European bees have not shown hybridization in the natural laboratory. There has not been documented Apis meliffera meliffellata of Apis meliffera scuteliffera or whatever one would call the hybrid. Nor has there been a definitive explanation why. As it's played out in the natural settings, when scutellata colonizes an area, the Europeans disappear. Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: Chris Hiemstra Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Chris Hiemstra Subject: Re: Hive record keeping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am now building up a hive recording system using Excel. > > Using a program called "Documents To Go" from DataViz you can take and use > your Excel spread sheet on your hand held. Then Sync it up so both machines > have the same information at all times. > > Cliff > This is what I am doing too, except, I use Quicksheet which interfaces with Excel, 2000 was my first year. It was handy for keeping track of 600 hives, and their pollination locations. I purchased a second Palm Pilot for my wife as well, and they are well used. Regards, Chris Hiemstra Aylmer, ON, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 05:41:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? In-Reply-To: <200104250545.f3P5jMs24314@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I hope that I am not too "abrupt" for you, but you surely know very little > about beeKEEPING. You better do a good bit of reading about "How to keep > bees". I personally appreciated Gary's post (the one that drew the above comment) because it made me think. I realise that the way he did things was not the way I -- as a long-time commercial beekeeper -- would probably have done it, but I also know what he did is not all out of line with how some successful beekeepers do things in some locales, and his account was well written. It made me reconsider a number of things. I came to the same conclusions I always do, but like to hear about ideas that are different from my own, especially when they are well expressed and in conformity with our guidelines. (Which relate to a number of things, including content and civility. See http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ and choose the correct link) As I read, I am often reminded that are many varied reasons that the people on this list keep bees. Some people are serious and after the dollar, some are right in step with the latest fashion, some pride themselves on being 'scientific', and some are just tinkering and having fun. We try to treat all with kindness and respect. > If you are not too mad with me, I suggest you read my PINK > PAGES which are a monthly writing aimed at "Upgrading > beeHAVERS to beeKEEPERS". With all due respect, and I do very much respect anyone who works to share knowledge and ideas, I have been to those very pages a number of times and I can't say that -- even after careful consideration -- I can agree with all of the opinions and ideas expressed there. Beekeepers just don't agree about much except that if we don't put supers on, we don't get honey -- and the top bar hive or skep guys (gals?) will even argue with that. For me, beekeeping is more art than science, although science certainly has its place. There is no one way to do things and I hope there never will be. When the fun and adventure goes out of bug ranching, I'm outta here. I hope Gary tells us how he makes out. Maybe we'll learn something. I'm sure it won't be a disaster. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Applying computer technology is simply finding the right wrench to pound in the correct screw. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:16:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Thanks to Aaron for finding the post I was talking about! http://listserve.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0011D&L=bee-1&P=R1612 The archives are a wonderful source of imformation which would otherwise be lost if talk was only taking place between two beekeepers through regular email. November of 2000 when I did the post there was no response by Texas & Arizona beekeepers as to the color of the AHB they were working. Maybe beekeepers will comment this time around? Just because AHB movement has slowed to a crawl doesn't mean we may not have to deal with AHB sometime in the future. Be a informed beekeeper! As per my post A.mellifera S. is easily reconized over the darker races of adansonii. I apoligise to John Edwards for missunderstanding the information he was looking for. I have never heard (or read) that queens of adansonii were raised and passed out BEFORE the accidental release. I tried to call my source of information in another state. I will see what I can find out about the subject. Also if I can use his name. John Edwards probbably has allready quessed his name. If John worked with Tabor then he most likely worked with my friend. My friend has talked about working with Steve Tabor in Baton Rouge but hasn't talked about working with John Edwards. My friend said Steve Tabor was totally obsessed with beekeeping in those days and every subject they talked about eventually went back to a beekeeping subject. The U.S. has been lucky to have had MANY excellent researchers throughout its beekeeping history. John Edwards & Steve Tabor are part of the group. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:35:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? In-Reply-To: <200104241836.f3OIa0s16601@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Was home for lunch when the wife shouted something about a swarm! Sure > enough this hive was boiling bees out ninety to nothing. > Today here comes another swarm of bees out. Or was it a mating flight? > Lasted about 15 minutes and everybody started going back in to the hive. I'm with you on this. I'd guess a mating swarm, but we'll really never know, since I suspect that these things seem often to be decided on the wing. What it turns out to be may not be decided until they are all up there. Or it may be predetermined. How can we know? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Sacred cows make the best hamburger. -- Mark Twain ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:48:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Apistan resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Al said: "There was some thoughts that it will take N generations of mites before Apistan will be useful against a mite population that had become resistant. Rotation would only continue the resistance." The thought is, isn't it, that those bees resistant to Apistan are all killed by the Coumaphos so they disappear from the gene pool altogether? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gary P Johns/ets/relat/Okstate Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Fellow Beekeepers, The answer is "It's a SWARM!" Went home today again for lunch. My next door neighbor (who is very patient and understanding) came to tell me my bees were out behind his house. So upon closer inspection I found where the swarm was alighting. I've called a friend to come get them as I have no room for them at the present time. Seems like this little queen can't make her mind up whether to stay or go! Gary Johns ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:50:27 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? and the comments that followed this mail prompts me to post my thoughts: I have always held the belief that it is better to pose the question without taking into account that it might give rise to derision or other comments that in reality have no bearing on the original question. If the fear of reproach gets the upper hand then there is an inevitable diminution of communication and that that does take place becomes stilted. The answer(s) that may serve as a response should surly instill in the enquirer and certain feeling of fulfillment and satisfaction from asking in the first place. Pertaining to beekeeping: Alan states that it is "more art than science" - to my mind this depends on how one views the way that beekeeping is approached. Art often being a term used to describe undefined or "loose" science. So, ask questions on what ever the level the problem may be - to the individual it may be a complicated concept being tackled which to others is only considered as routine. If the result causes an increase in knowledge all the better. Peter P.S. Very few of my bees are flying yet the rape (canola - colza) is in full flower - could this be due to the lousy weather or that the flowers aren't producing nectar - temp is hitting about 7°- 9° C and it has been raining for about 7 months. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:19:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm suprised no one has recounted the two articles in the American Bee Journal by two German scientists after they attended the Apimondia conference in Brazil several years ago. They reported on a survey of hives there. They said the feral bees were A. melifera melifera and this was the population into which the A. scutellata mixed. They said the bees were just as defensive as reported but that they could take anyone to dozens of colonies in Germany and Sweden (as I recall) which were just as bad. So if there was any mixing of genes, which I accept as being little or none, there would be no dilution of defensiveness. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Apistan resistance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Al said: "There was some thoughts that it will take N generations of > mites > before Apistan will be useful against a mite population that > had become resistant. Rotation would only continue the resistance." > > The thought is, isn't it, that those bees resistant to Apistan are > all killed by the Coumaphos so they disappear from the gene pool > altogether? Dan > No, nothing kills all the mites. 99% is the best I have seen claimed. Apistan kills 99% of the mites until most of the mites left were resistant. Then the Cumaphos kills 98% of the mites, Apistan resitant and non-Apistan resistant in about equal proportions until the population is mainly Cumaphos resistant. This new population would still be partialy Apistan resistant. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:51:59 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Culliney" Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for the killer bee quick!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Morris" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:34 AM Subject: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for the kill er bee quick!!) > I was also aware of the cape bee vs. scutellata, almost quoted the article > but did not as the BEE-L guidelines frown on excessive quotes of previously > posted material. The point I was making is that Gloria DeGrandi-Hofman > asserted that scutellata exhibits thelytoky as it migrates northward and > this may be a possible explanation for the majority of bees in a "colonized" > area showing AHB DNA. > > Getting back to the original point, AHB and European bees have not shown > hybridization in the natural laboratory. There has not been documented Apis > meliffera meliffellata of Apis meliffera scuteliffera or whatever one would > call the hybrid. Nor has there been a definitive explanation why. As it's > played out in the natural settings, when scutellata colonizes an area, the > Europeans disappear. As I understand it, hybridization has occurred. Both morphometric and DNA analysis support this conclusion. It would be unreasonable to believe that, over the last 44 years or so, matings have occurred only among reproductives from the original 26 swarms of scutellata and among their descendents. Apparently, hybrids that do not exhibit the highly defensive behavior characteristic of scutellata are less able to survive and tend to die out, leaving those colonies known as Africanized honey bees. Although there is some evidence that the frequency of European genes in Africanized populations may decline over time, these bees cannot be considered to belong to the scutellata race. Let's just call them Apis mellifera and leave it at that. Subspecies is such a nebulous concept, anyway. The category is merely a taxonomic convenience, and has no biological validity. Tom Culliney, Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture, Division of Plant Industry, 1428 South King St., Honolulu, HI 96814 U.S.A. E-mail: culliney@elele.peacesat.hawaii.edu Telephone: 808-973-9528 Fax: 808-973-9533 "To a rough approximation and setting aside vertebrate chauvinism, it can be said that essentially all organisms are insects."--R.M. May (1988) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:38:40 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: mass die-off of bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mass Die-Off of Bees Near Medford MEDFORD, Ore. (KPTV) -- Something is killing hives of bees near Medford and beekeepers think pesticides are to blame. Beekeepers in Sams Valley think pesticide or weed spraying may be the cause of hundreds of hive losses. Keepers like Gene Pringle and his son Larry have reported losing their entire commercial stock of 400 hives. Another nearby commercial keeper, Morris Saltekoff, says he's lost 300 hives -- his entire stock. Both commercial keepers are sure that the die-off stems from a chemical source. The Oregon Department of Agriculture says pesticides are not to blame. According to preliminary analysis by the department's pesticide division, the die-off seems to be an isolated problem. Copyright Oregon Television, Inc. http://www.kptv.com/story/story_34.asp?content_id=381415 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:45:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Formic Acid I am trying to determine if the 85% Formic Acid I have purchased is 85%. Someone suggested I could do this by checking it's specific gravity. I tried to take a reading and my hydrometer rode so high in the Formic that the whole scale was well above the liquid. Does this sound right, wrong, or is this all a red herring? Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:03:11 +0100 Reply-To: max.watkins@vita-europe.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Max Watkins Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (E0550CDA) In-Reply-To: <200104241231.f3OCVus28607@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There are always going to be individual mites that can tolerate higher doses of a pesticide than others within the same population. In much of the USA and parts of Europe pyrethroid resistance has already been selected for and its geographical spread indicates that there is not too high a cost to the mite in becoming pyrethroid resistant. However, remove the selection pressure (pyrethroid treatments) and the susceptible strains will again over time, outnumber the more resistant individuals. We have seen this in Europe. Resistant or tolerant genes - whatever you care to call them - will never be eliminated entirely from a wide area of high infestation but using treatments with different modes of action the resistance percentage levels can be kept down low enough to allow acceptable control of the pest. Low level potential resistance [to any given substance]could be be said to be present in any population, due to natural variation. As beekeepers we need to manage it to our advantage. Max Dr Max Watkins Vita (Europe) Limited 21/23 Wote Street Basingstoke, Hants RG21 7NE UK Tel. +44 (0) 1256 473177 Fax +44 (0) 1256 473179 http://www.vita-europe.com -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Lipscomb, Al Sent: 23 April 2001 20:11 To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (E0550CDA) > > I am struck that no one is suggesting a combination miticide attack. > > Alternating Apistan and Coumaphos. > > I recall that the active ingredients in Apistan and Coumaphos > are a bad > combination, and to > be avoided. I don't recall the specifics, but details are in > the archives > somewhere. There was some thoughts that it will take N generations of mites before Apistan will be useful against a mite population that had become resistant. Rotation would only continue the resistance. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:20:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: mass die-off of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Sharon & All, All beekeepers need to stay on top of this situation. The article lacks information which might help to get a clear picture of the situation. Bee-L beekeepers in the area need to post any new information if possible. Very sad situation for those beekeepers losing all colonies. I have talked to several beekeepers which have lost almost all their hives because fluvalinate resistant mites slipped up on them. One midwestern beekeeper sent 700 dead hives to California to polinate Almonds. The weather was to cold (he said) to break the seals and look inside before loading on the semis. Not only did he not get polination fees he had to pay trucking both ways. I didn't really want to post his story unless a story like in Oregon came along. I am certainly not saying a similar situation happened in Oregon. Even when all the facts are in a exact cause of death of the hives in Oregon may be hard to pinpoint. The article gives few facts. The fact it does give points to pesticides. ALL hives of both beekeepers died. Even our midwestern beekeeper didn't lose ALL his hives. Sincerely, Bob Harison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:53:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for the kill er bee quick!!) In-Reply-To: <200104251411.f3PEBDs06925@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Getting back to the original point, AHB and European bees have not shown > hybridization in the natural laboratory. There has not been documented Apis > meliffera meliffellata of Apis meliffera scuteliffera or whatever one would > call the hybrid. Nor has there been a definitive explanation why. As it's > played out in the natural settings, when scutellata colonizes an area, the > Europeans disappear. > > Aaron Morris A quote for thought: "European" bees, those kept by beekeepers in the Americas, are usually described as a mixture of races (and genes). It is further accepted by most experts that "African" bees in South America outcross with "European" bees there. Interestingly however, the progeny of this crossbreeding are then called "Africanized" - no longer a variable mixture of races (albiet somewhat expanded) even though only a single race (African) with some admittedly less desirable traits has been added to the genetic base. We think it equally or more appropriate to say that the African bees became Europeanized. The popular concept of what constitutes an "Africanized" bee appears to be way out of line with reality. Even the accepted terminology (e.g. "African" "Africanized") is misleading and should, if possible, be abandoned. Our observations lead us to conclude that the AB phenomenon is little more than an extended, over-popularized, case of gene introgression and selection - an evolutionary process well-documented in many other organisms under natural conditions. The introduction of African bees into South America represents the sudden breakdown of an isolating barrier (the Atlantic ocean), providing the impetus for a unique glimpse of how gene introgression works in honey' bees." MANAGEMENT STRATEGIES FOR 'AFRICANIZED' HONEY BEES: CONCEPTS STRENGTHENED BY OUR EXPERIENCES IN COSTA RICA. PART I. Bee Culture - September, 1986 By ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:03:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Mating flight or failed swarm? In-Reply-To: <200104250544.f3P5iPs24295@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 George Imirie wrote: > Hence, about the earliest a beginner can see evidence of young larva > is 11-12 days after the virgin queen emerges from her queen cell; so > don't surmise your hive is queenLESS too quick and order a new queen > because she will just be killed by the new virgin queen. I'd say that even 11-12 days can be optimistic in some cases. I had a hive swarm, and I didn't see any evidence of a mated queen (eggs or larva) until 3-4 *weeks* after the swarm. What was the virgin queen doing during that time? Who knows... -- James Ralston Pittsburgh, PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:51:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for thekill er bee quick!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A quote for thought: > .............. > Europeanized. The popular concept of what constitutes an "Africanized" bee > appears to be way out of line with reality. Even the accepted terminology > (e.g. "African" "Africanized") is misleading and should, if possible, be > abandoned. Our observations lead us to conclude that the AB phenomenon is > little more than an extended, over-popularized, case of gene introgression > and selection - > OUR EXPERIENCES IN COSTA RICA. PART I. > Bee Culture - September, 1986 > By ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG I guess this shows how little we understood in 1986. Times change, and old ideas die hard. Probably fifteen-year-old papers should be quoted for historical perspective, but not as truth. - John Edwards, Tucson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:33:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name for thekill er bee quick!!) In-Reply-To: <200104262154.f3QLsCs04316@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> OUR EXPERIENCES IN COSTA RICA. PART I. >> Bee Culture - September, 1986 >> By ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG > > I guess this shows how little we understood in 1986. Times change, and old > ideas > die hard. Probably fifteen-year-old papers should be quoted for historical > perspective, but not as truth. > - John Edwards, Tucson Hi John - If this viewpoint is no longer held by these authors, can you point me to their updated views? I'd be interested to read them. Actually, I found this article to quite refreshing and far more down to earth without all the hype than a lot of what I read on the subject of AHB's. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:40:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: mass die-off of bees In-Reply-To: <200104260505.f3Q55As22834@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200104260505.f3Q55As22834@listserv.albany.edu>, Sharon Labchuk writes > Mass Die-Off of Bees Near Medford I felt gutted just thinking about it. I do hope you find the cause of the problem. Best wishes to all affected. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> OUR EXPERIENCES IN COSTA RICA. PART I. >> Bee Culture - September, 1986 >> By ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG > > I guess this shows how little we understood in 1986. Times change, and old > ideas > die hard. Probably fifteen-year-old papers should be quoted for historical > perspective, but not as truth. > - John Edwards, Tucson Hi John - I agree with you that older papers should be quoted for their historical perspective, after all, the fact that it's an older paper should help give one a better benchmark to work from. If the viewpoints in this article are no longer held by these authors as truth, where might one find their updated views? I'd be interested to read them. Actually, I found this article to be quite refreshing and far more down to earth, without all the hype, than a lot of what I read on the subject of AHB's. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Living queen in a dead hive! I have often heard the old adage that when looking for a queen you must assume she could be anywhere in the hive. And this is certainly true - in my experience she can be found on the hive walls, on the inner cover, on frames of honey, but almost all the time she's on a frame of young brood. Today, however, I was cleaning out an old dead-out hive from winter. It was really dead, with moldy bees packed everywhere, and no signs of life. When I started, I tossed the inner cover (with stored queen excluder stuck on top) onto the ground. Following cleaning, I went to pick this up when I noticed a queen plus one single worker together between inner cover and excluder! I retrieved her and put her in an old queen cage and banked her along with the new queens I bought this spring. I'm going to try to introduce her into a nuc just to see what happens. I am amazed at this. How could a single bee, and especially a queen, survive in a hive where the colony is long dead? It is much too early for queen production and swarming in my area, so she couldn't be a lost virgin (she certainly did not look like a virgin, although she was obvioiusly not in laying condition). Has anyone else ever seen anything like this? Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:01:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Africanized hybrids (what is known) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, Barry wrote: If this viewpoint is no longer held by these authors, can you point me to their updated views? I'd be interested to read them. Actually, I found this article to quite refreshing and far more down to earth without all the hype than a lot of what I read on the subject of AHB's. *What is known about Africanized hybrids* From a beekeepers standpoint some of the most simple questions about AHB were never answered. They were mainy not answered because of a lack of funding. I attended the American Beekeeping Federation meeting in Austin, Texas mainly to learn about AHB. I found out quickly how little was really known about AHB. . *Things I learned about AHB in Austin* I learned that the only way a beekeeper could know if his hive had been taken over by AHB was the hold a little card up to check if any newly drawn cells were 4.9mm (or slightly less than five cells to the inch). You can send a sample off if you are willing to wait weeks for the results. Kicking the hive was the scientific test recommended(really!). Ahb fly into the entrance more than European bees( but not always they said). AHB can but not always have a characteristic wing venation. Beekeepers living in AHB zones said they always kick the back of their hives slightly before working the hives. If AHB queen then the bees boil out. The beekeeper then suits up with lots of smoke and finds and kills the queen (or kill the entire hive). At times they split the hive into three nucs which at times can be requeened. Although AHB workers can at times lay fertile eggs ( like the cape bee) the beekeepers in Texas reported only finding one queen in the hives. At least those beekeepers talks I listened to and the Texas beekeepers I talked to during the meeting. Several had dequeened the hive and sent a sample and yes the bees were Africanized. One of the sideline beekeepers which spoke at the meeting said he had around 3-5 hives taken over a year by Africanized bees. The above is directly from my notes from Austin. Not one beekeeper I have ever talked to which has really seen a hive of aggressive AHB's have said to me they would want to keep those around. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:00:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Africanized hybrids (what is known) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, In the early days of the *African Bee* it was named Apis mellifera adansonii. *The Hive and the Honey Bee* says adansonii covers the whole continent of Africa between the Sahara and the Kalahari. This was accepted truth at the time of the original release(1956). To quote the *hive and Honey Bee:(pg.26 copy 1975) "In 1956 a few adansonii queens were imported from South Africa to Brazil to improve local stock,originally imported from Europe(Kerr 1957)." All text of the period say adansonii were what Dr Kerr imported. Quote from pg. 38 of *Hive and Honey Bee* (copy 1992) "The African group includes not only includes the LARGEST NUMBER OF geographic RACES, BUT SOME OF THE BEST KNOWN". adansonii comprised 12 races (Ruttner 1975) After 1975 the story began to change. Ruttner (1981) had changed the name adansonii to A. mellifera scutellata. In short AFTER the release(1956) the AHB was given a hard look and the books changed greatly from the 1975 book to the later additions. My point (if you haven't deleted yet) is that we really don't know *exactly* what the morphological charactor was of the bees Dr. Kerr imported. If there is a researcher out in Bee-L land which has a different *provable* opinion I would like to hear from you. *Something to think about*. We at this time to not have the *Cape Bee* in the U.S. but we may in the future. From Hive and Honey Bee (1992): The non-Linnean classification of honey bees by DuPraw is based on 15 characters of the worker forewing. *Ruttner (1975) was UNABLE to delimit A mellifera adansonii (Latreille 1804) and A. mellifera capensis(Escholtz 1822) on the basis of wing characters. In my opinion the cape bee might be like *Looking for a needle in a hay stack in commercial hives* I could go on but will stop and see if a few of our researchers lurking will comment on any of my comments,add to, or disagree with. I am by no means a expert on Aricanized bees or A. MELLIFERA FOR THAT MATTER! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 06:10:08 -0400 Reply-To: Paule911@att.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul McLaren Subject: Poly Hive Bottom Board In-Reply-To: <200104270238.f3R2cws15058@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying Polystyrene hive for this first time this year. Placed packages last weekend here in New York and the bees seem to be taking to them fine. I have a concern about the bottom board however. They have built in Varroa screens, which I am in favor of, and the base has numerous scallops built in. This allows for a lot of air circulation through the bottom, and hence through the Varroa screen. I am worried that there may be to much cold air on the new package during our cold spring nights. Right now we are reaching 35 deg F. at night, and up to 70 deg F. during the day. Does anyone else think that this provides too much draft? Has anyone blocked these scallops for spring/winter seasons? I am considering building a wooden base that would have removable slats that would close these holes during cold weather and provide a place to use a collection tray under the Varroa screen. Any suggestions? Paul McLaren Poestenkill, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:58:54 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Mass Die-Off of Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > In message <200104260505.f3Q55As22834@listserv.albany.edu>, Sharon > Labchuk writes > > Mass Die-Off of Bees Near Medford Sharon and all, Thanks for that post, Sharon. We beekeepers on PEI can empathize with = any beekeepers who have suffered major losses. Our hearts go out to you. One = bit of advice: if you start getting remarks from other beekeepers (or = so-called experts in whatever field) like, "Guess you didn't treat for mites" or "Maybe they all died from a brood disease and you don't know what you're doing." *PLEASE* don't let these selfabsorbed nasties get to you. I have been fielding this type of backlash since I went public with our = suspected Imidacloprid problem. Some comments are very stinging and come from beekeepers very close by who seem to take pleasure in another's = misfortune. You know your bees and your operation. You know when something is = happening that is out of the ordinary. You may not know exactly what is causing = that problem but you know a problem exists. The loss of your livestock is devastating enough without letting confidence-crushing abuse comlicate = the situation. We wish you well in your troubled time. Al ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:25:43 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Living Queen in a Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted and all, In responce to your post about finding a dead hive in spring with a = living queen: I realize this is somewhat off topic but last summer = during our clover honey flow I was finding far too many hives that were = dead with 4 or 5 combs of open brood and eggs and a live queen with from = 0 to a few hundred workers. We suspect Imidacloprid was the cause of the = hive deaths but it is interesting to see a queen still alive after all = the workers are gone. I have seen the same situation you discribe as = well. That queen must be some tough bug. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Ca. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:30:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids In-Reply-To: <200104262154.f3QLsCs04316@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I guess this shows how little we understood in 1986. Times change, and old > ideas > die hard. Probably fifteen-year-old papers should be quoted for historical > perspective, but not as truth. > - John Edwards, Tucson I guess I should have given the URL to this paper in my last email so the quoted section can be read in the context of the whole paper. Part 1 and 2 http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/bcsept86.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/bcoct86.htm I'm surprised that John's viewpoint on this article is so unfavorable especially since world renowned bee geneticist Harry Laidlaw gave it quite a positive endorsement: "The paper is unusually well written. Conclusions are based on discriminating observations and thorough analyses, and recommendations are positive and practical. "It is an excellent paper." Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Living queen in a dead hive! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I am amazed at this. How could a single bee, and especially a queen, survive in a hive where > the colony is long dead? It is much too early for queen production and swarming in my area, > so she couldn't be a lost virgin (she certainly did not look like a virgin, although she was > obvioiusly not in laying condition). Has anyone else ever seen anything like this? I have had a similar experience (only once I can recall). Cleaning out a dead hive and discovered a lone surviving queen who flew off from the frame on which I found her. I was amazed when I saw it happen, but never mentioned it to anyone. I do not know for certain how long the colony had been dead. SWAG: A hive needs a critical mass of bees to keep going. When a hive dwindles below its capability to maintain itself, the few remaining bees eventually age and die, with no new bees emerging to replace them. If you come in right at the tail end of the demise, you might find the last few surviving bees, perhaps even the last sole worker and the longer lived queen. That a queen cannot feed herself is a myth. When there is no retinue, a queen can and does feed herself. I suspect what Ted witnessed, and what I also witnessed was just the very end in a hive's demise. The queen lived on with no workers to incubate her eggs. I currently have a dink that possibly has too small a population to incubate brood sufficiently to survive. The marked queen continues to lay a pattern far too large for the remaining workers to incubate. I suspect if I don't intervene I will witness the SWAG I threw out in the previous paragraph. The colony is in an out yard where I am not able to get to often enough to closely follow what's going on. Based on things Andy wrote, I suspect the few remaining workers canabalize the eggs they are not able to cover. I'm left wondering if the queen continues to lay larger patterns than the workers can incubate, and if the workers continue to canabalize those eggs, and at what point (as this hive continues to slide) will it finally collapse, leaving only the queen surviving, until she too perishes. I suspect Ted happened in at his hive at the last comma in the previous sentence. Aaron Morris - thinking sad thoughts of a hive's demise. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (what is known) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Beekeepers living in AHB zones said they always kick the back of their hives > slightly before working the hives. If AHB queen then the bees boil out. > Not one beekeeper I have ever talked to which has really seen a hive of > aggressive AHB's have said to me they would want to keep those around. I had heard that the reason AHB were so aggressive was through the method of honey collection in Africa years ago. Hives were destroyed, so the honey collectors bred, inadvertently, for aggressive bees. Since there is no way to check if the bees are AHB other than in a lab or at least lab like conditions, it could be we are having a reverse selection process going on in Texas, where the bees could be AHB but the selection is for gentleness. We certainly do that with our own bees, regardless of race. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:50:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: open-mesh bottoms on hives In discussing his new polystyrene hive, Bob said "This allows for a lot of air circulation through the bottom, and hence through the Varroa screen. I am worried that there may be to much cold air on the new package during our cold spring nights." Bob, save yourself any worry, or effort in modifying the bottom. I am slightly north of you, and use bottoms that are almost 100% screens (1/4" hardware cloth) all winter, spring, summer, etc. Moreover, I know another nearby beekeeper who has been doing so for over 40 years! The increased draft that has you concerned does not harm the bees and, under certain conditions, may even be beneficial! Lloyd Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I was sent a email direct quoting Crane (1999) in "the world history of beekeeping and honey hunting"= "Kerrs introduction of African bees was from s. Africa and Tanzania and also INCLUDED some a.m.capensis"(Cape Bee)(table 36.2D,pg. 364). On the web the abstract is published. http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~hgh/deptpage/hgh_biog.htm http://www.ifas.ufl.edu/~hgh/deptpage/abstract.htm This is a startling fact for me to find out. Hopefully the *Cape Bee* has died out over the last 40+ years. In my opinion commercial beekeeping has more to fear from the cape bee than from A.mellifera s.. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:09:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids In-Reply-To: <200104271508.f3RF8bs09289@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to publicly thank everyone who is participating in this discussion and particularly Barry and Bob for their researched contributions. I can see they have both been doing their homework and sharing their learning. This discussion is to me an example of the best and ideal use of BEE-L and I very much appreciate all informed comments. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:11:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (what is known) In-Reply-To: <200104271322.f3RDMJs04124@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 27 Apr 2001, Bill Truesdell wrote: > I had heard that the reason AHB were so aggressive was through the > method of honey collection in Africa years ago. Hives were destroyed, so > the honey collectors bred, inadvertently, for aggressive bees. This hardly seems right. Destruction of the hive has been a method of honey collection everywhere, and has not resulted in extraordinarily aggressive bees. Until the Langstroth era, it was the normal way to get at the honey. Susan Nielsen -- Susan Nielsen | "Every year, back comes Spring, with nasty snielsen@orednet.org | little birds yapping their fool heads off | and the ground all mucked up with plants." | --Dorothy Parker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (what is known) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill & All, Bill wrote: it could be we are having a reverse selection process going on in Texas, where the bees could be AHB but the selection is for gentleness. We certainly do that with our own bees, regardless of race. Bob wrote: I have done as the beekeepers in Texas talked about with aggressive bees for many years. Each year I mark a hive for replacement if overly aggressive. This year I requeened some of last years best queens. Some of the hives I relocated to see if their disposition improved. Those of you which have worked bees with me know I can take as many stings as the next guy but aggressive bees cause problems on farms and make yards unpleasant to work. Sadly many of the best producers seem to be the aggressive hives. Point is I have got a orchard full of nucs which I just came in from working. People helping me find out real quick which nucs come from those aggressive hives. The nucs from the aggressive hives were made by splitting the complete hive three ways. Those hives had around 9 frames of brood when I eliminated the hive. I killed the queens three weeks ago and left the three nucs queenless for 48 hours. I put in new queens and those hives were the only hives which had poor queen acceptance. I tried a few second queens but now I am requeening with established nucs. Same batch of queens queen only given as a nuc inside a single deep instead of just a queen in a cage. Queen cells work good for aggressive hives but couldn't get those in Missouri three weeks ago. Another 27 days and I expect to start seeing a attitude change on those hives. Hopefully! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 12:51:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rossy Castillo Subject: Re: Africanized bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in Chile , South America and I´d like to inform to the list that we have no africanized bees in our country , so far Chile is the only country of South America without them. This is possible to the special geographical isolation of our country . Any question will be welcome. Rossy Castillo Queen breeder rossybee@ctcinternet.cl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:09:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids (Was: I need the scientific name forthekill er bee quick!!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A note to the list: Please do not confuse my differing views toward published "editorial" research as opposed to data-based research. Many, many people have expounded on their beliefs regarding ahb, and they have a perfect right to do so. We who live with the ahb on a daily basis may differ, even among ourselves, but we speak from experience. I personally know of no beekeeper who wants the ahb in their beeyard. You may characterize my comments toward the previously noted publication however you want, but the words are yours, not mine. There is always a difference of opinions in science - this is difficult for many to grasp. Sincerely, - John Edwards, Tucson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:46:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: open-mesh bottoms on hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/01 10:14:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, lloydspear@MSN.COM writes: > I am worried that there may be to much cold air > on the new package during our cold spring nights." Set the whole arrangement on an empty super and you will cut draughts considerably. You dont need a bottom board at all but it makes it easier to aim the bees or move them. What bees these mortals fool. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 21:58:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "j.david clark" Subject: Re: POLYSTYRENE HIVES - Terramycin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello there Paul and All , On April 24th of year 2000 , I was introduced to the art of beekeeping by receiving 45 bee packages from New Zealand . We took delivery of the packages from a well known local beekeeper , Stan Sandler . Stan suggested that we shake out the packages as soon as possible . Bearing this in mind , this novice insisted on shaking out at once even though it was near midnite and we were receiving a couple of inches of new snow. We had 45 packages which were transfered to 41 wooden and 4 polystyrene hives . Ignorance was bliss and our efforts were rewarded . The following days were cool , however , pollen was available from poplar , red maple and other trees . A few days passed and we placed in frame feeders containing syrup . At the time of shakeout we emptied the packaged transport feed directly into the hives , a practice , I would not do again . We had managed to survive this ordeal and our bees came right along . The progress made by the polystyrene colonies was , perhaps , twice that of the wooden units , a coincidence or not , I'm not qualified to make an assertment . The colonies were , in my mind , not up to movement to other locations for pollination provision and were left in the perimeter of one of my blueberry fields . The majority of farms in my area are dairy with very little potato acreage . The only complaint I received about my bees foraging came from my wife who loves flower growing and has a large rock garden . She apparently takes out her frustration by pulling weeds from her gardens . It so happens that there are a lot of thyme plantings which appear to be a magnet to honey bees . We have a 7 acre lawn designed by mother nature , consisting of many weeds along with dandelion and white clover . We do not spray our lawn for weeds as without them , we would have no green at all . Next to weed pulling , my wife likes to release frustration by mowing de lawn , a bonanza for forragers including my bees . According to others we had a poor honey flow , however , this novice was pleased . The polystyrene hives produced twice as much as most of the wooden hives except for a few . When taking honey from the polystyrene hives we had difficulty handling the third and fourth full supers and as a matter of fact , we had a fourth styrene honey super fall apart under it's heavy load . I would recommend the polystyrene for new packages , however , we are thinking of topping off with shallow wooden units for honey this year . Two deep polystyrene topped with wood . We moved 44 hives into our blueberry scale house during the second week of December for overwintering . The room was equipped with an exhaust and inlet fan , in hopes of a controled environment . There was no heat and the only protection afforded was from the wind and to a lesser degree , humidity . Having an inquisative mind , I checked the colonies many time over the winter months , sometimes , with other interested parties to show off the polystyrene hives which were allways hot with activity . We moved the colonies outdoors to our loading ramp three weeks ago this coming Sunday . we lost 8 colonies , 6 wooden and two polystyrene . The wooden units all had some reserves of food and the polystyrene units were completely devoid of any stores . I have my hunches , however , as previously stated , I'm not qualified to make a firm decision for this occurance . Following the initial bee flight , one would think the Red Russian Army had dropped their drawers and relieved themselves on our loading dock , including the persons of my brother inlaw and myself . We placed in frame feeders in the hives which were low in stores and put brewers yeast into feeders which we designed for feeding pollen supplement . We used 10 gallon steel grease barrels which were cleaned of any residue and welded a 6 inch bracket to to the bottom edge to elevate the feeder . We removed 2/3 rds of the cover and drilled a hole in the bottom to remove any weather intrusion . The cover was attached to the 10 gallon feeder and the substitute food was placed in the rearmost of the elevated feeder which as laid down on it's side . Yesterday ,we removed the top covers of two of the dead hives and took out the empty frames and left the few honey filled frames spaced apart for access to foraging bees . The invitation was immediately accepted . I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not . We have had a few days of 15 % celcius temperature on our sheltered dock area and bee activity at times is intensive . The pollen feeders are popular and well accepted to the bees . We are about to medicate our bees and searched for Terramycin in town , however , the only product available at our vet clinic pharmacy was ONYCIN 62.5 - Tetracycline HCI water soluable powder . The product , I'm told , is for chicken , turkey , swine , calves and sheep , however acceptible for bee treatment . 1 tsp = 4 grams . Can I use this product or should I wait for Terramycin . In closing , I might suggest that Polystyrene has it's uses and in my opinion , it use can be successfuly if blended with wood . Thats the view from P. E. I. , regards to all , Dave ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 06:54:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bonbee@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Living Queen in a Dead Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in north east Ohio, a couple of springs ago, I found one queen and about eight workers in the top box of a honey bound brood box with only maybe 15 open cells. Bonnie Pierson