From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:48 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDls18815 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:47 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDiJ12739 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDiJ12739@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:40 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0105A" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 167855 Lines: 3614 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 06:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Official National Honey Board T shirt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And if the NHB would advertise "make it with US honey", maybe the Genuine U.S. Beekeepers wouldn't continue to be an endangered species. Exactly who are they trying to kid. All the increased consumption of honey they brag about has been in manufactured foods. That honey comes from outside the country. I received the same junk mail, and feel it a slap in the face. Hats and tee-shirts won't help is one bit, creating a market for U.S. honey will. Mike Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello All, > I received in the mail yesterday the NHB apparel program 2001. I receive > mail from the board because I have paid the one cent per pound since the > start. Although I have not always agreed with the board I have supported > its efforts. > The official NHB T shirt for 2001 is unusual to say the least. > On the T shirt in big letters is *Genuine U.S. Beekeeper* with : > *Endangered Species* below beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:18:38 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Some of us inquired about the current thinking of ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG about africanized honeybees. Some local CAB cdROM search on their recent publications (after 1995) gave me this result: - Erickson-EH in Bee-World. 1999, 80: 3, 119-123; 8 ref. ; Territoriality and the africanized honey bee. ; Abstract: The defensive and territorial behaviour of Apis mellifera scutellata is discussed. Head butting and buzzing are seen as integral factors in defensive behaviour. A google search gave out the link http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/publ/ , listing (among other very interesting data and links): - 11.Erickson, E.H. ; Territoriality and the Africanized Honeybee ; Bee World 80 (3): 119-123: 1999 - 16.Erickson, E.H. ; Africanized Honeybees ; Handbook of Structural Pests. Accepted 6/99 - 18.Erickson, E.H. ; Stinging Pests ; Ent. Soc. Amer. Handbook of Household and Structural Insect Pests. R.E. Gold and S.C. ; Jones, Editors. P. 23-26. 2000. It seems at least E.H. Erickson did not stop thinking ;-). I could not find any access to Bee World nor summaries of those books. Still searching. Vanessa de Behr Sunday's beekeeper Belgium, colza/rape/canola flowering under rainy 10°C/50°F days. Thinking about buying tiny umbrellas. Barry Birkey wrote: >> OUR EXPERIENCES IN COSTA RICA. PART I. >> Bee Culture - September, 1986 >> By ERIC H. ERICKSON, JR., BARBARA J. ERICKSON, and ALLEN M. YOUNG (snip) If the viewpoints in this article are no longer held by these authors as truth, where might one find their updated views? I'd be interested to read them. (snip) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:07:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Requeening nucs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello I am having problems with two nucs I installed about a month ago. I thought everything was fine, but I am not seing any brood. I re-queened one (Russian) after I found the queen dead in its cage. Still nothing. I am going to try again. What is the best way to introduce the queen in case there is another queen already there? Advice? Ibrahim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:25:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Payton Subject: Re: New Hives In-Reply-To: <200104301419.f3UEJAs05438@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >70% drawn is ok for adding the second box. Because all the warmth and >activity will be above the center of the bottom box the bees will draw frames >in the middle of the 2nd box before the outsides of the bottom. Your job will >be to move these down keeping brood with brood to fill the 1st box. Keep >feeding them and correct any malformed combs. For us neophytes, can you explain what you mean by correcting any malformed combs? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Hoyt" Subject: Re: spring feeding using gallon ziplock bags Someone recently mentioned using those water containers that hang inside of the hive - in the place of a frame... The problem that I have with those is that they tend to bulge and mess up the next frame of comb, too. I have "partially solved" the problem. I use a big "hive staple" across the top of the tank to hold it together. Cutting a couple of notches in the top of the tank seems to keep 'em in place. They still bulge in the middle - but not at the top. HTH. Rev. Thomas W. Hoyt Holy Cross Lutheran Church Warda, TX ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:11:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: requeening nucs I think it is almost impossible to requeen a nuc (or hive) with the existing queen in place. One must find and remove her...or kill her. On the other hand, if one starts with a queenless nuc or package it is easy to introduce a new queen. Remove the cork from the candy end of the cage, put a hole in the candy with a long nail. (Don't injure the queen doing this.) Put the cage candy end up in between two frames. In 72 hours check and remove the cage. If the queen is still there, lift the wire and let her go on top of the frames. You do not need to remove any workers from the queen cage. Best of luck, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:17:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: new combs Mark asks "For us neophytes, can you explain what you mean by correcting any malformed combs?" Great question. Bees will sometimes (often?) draw the comb incorrectly. This particularly happens when they are not kept constantly with feed. If you are working with plastic foundation, it is best to scrape the comb down to foundation and let them start over. If you are working with natural beeswax, it is usually sufficient to lightly scratch the deformed area (but remove any burr comb) and the bees will often rebuild perfect combs. Far better...when drawing new comb other than during a major honey flow, feed corn syrup, 1:1 sugar/water mixture, or your own honey...and do not let the bees run out even for a day or two! Lloyd Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:54:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Official National Honey Board T shirt Comments: To: mpalmer@together.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mike & All, Mike wrote: Hats and tee-shirts won't help is one bit, creating a market for U.S. honey will. Mike makes valid points. I will add a few others for those interested. U.S. honey producers do not produce enough honey to meet U.S. demand nor have they for years and years. A market exists for bulk honey. Those that control the bulk honey market set the price they pay for honey. If you look at the old American Bee Journals back a 100 years the price of bulk honey has been the number one complaint. In my opinion beekeepers will be complaining about the price of honey all through this century. In my opinion the NHB will not and can not change the situation. All groups need a organization to represent them. We need to fix the NHB to help with the problem. In my opinion the reality of bulk honey prices is here to stay. On the bright side retail prices have almost doubled according to ABJ over the last 15-20 years. The higher shelf price of honey over the last 15-20 years is a major help for those which market their honey directly to stores and consumers. Selling honey to large packers is like trying to trade in your old car at the car dealer. The dealer will tell you after you calm down. "You can sell to me or sell it yourself". Again I do not disagree with the points Mike made. I only make the comment that the NHB alone will never change the way packers do business. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: New Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > For us neophytes, can you explain what you mean by correcting any malformed > combs? > reply: Any combs that aren't drawn straight. Excessive drone brood, comb at right angles, bridge comb that connects two frames together. Or in general frames that are difficult to manipulate or waste good brood production area ( such as frames that are two thick and the opposite foundation isn't drawn properly). Use your judgment these combs should be obvious to most. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:36:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Formic Acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by mws@FRONTIERNET.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=9A352419) (43 lines) ------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 23:34:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Formic Acid From: "Michael W Stoops" To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Try diluting the acid by 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 until you can get an accurate reading. Then multiply the reading by the dilution factor to get your%. By the way, pour the acid into the water, not water into the acid. If you pour water into the acid it might heat up hot enough to erupt out of your container onto you. NOT NICE. Mike, Excel, Alabama ---------- >From: Ted Hancock > I am trying to determine if the 85% Formic Acid I have purchased is 85%.... > > Ted ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: New Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bob Barnett's reply to Rodney Farrar's question about proper timing for adding the second brood box is a good reply for beekeepers in the south where hives are run as singles. In the north, the second box is still for the bees. One would rarely use a queen excluder between brood boxes, especially when the hive is building up. Remember, geographic location is extremely important when posing questions to BEE-L. Reading Bob's very good answer it was obvious to me that the answer was coming from the south, and was verified in Bob's signature which included Birmingham, AL. Aaron Morris - wondering in upstate NY where in the world is Rodney? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:51:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Formic Acid In-Reply-To: <200105011505.f41F5Ms16865@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > By the way, pour the acid into the water, not water into the acid. > If you pour water into the acid it might heat up hot enough to erupt out of > your container onto you. Not true in this case. While that is generally good advice for acids, in the case of formic, there is no obvious exothermic reaction and you can add either one to the other safely. Moreover the volumes are, for all intents and purposes, additive: 1 litre plus one litre equals two litres. The whole matter of handling and applying formic has been extensively described in the logs and can easily be found by a search at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:43:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Marking existing queens Seaching the archives and in reference to some posts written in the past it is very much unclear to me that sometimes it is ok and other times hazardous (balling danger) to finger pick-up an existing queen (egg-laying or not yet), paint mark it, clip its wings and then release it in her colony. Is there someone that could explain the fundamentals? References: 1. Kerry Clark - 27 January 1995 - item oo3717 2. Jean-Pierre Chapleau - 28 January 1995 - item 003725 3. Jean-Pierre Chapleau - 01 October 1995 - item 006088 4. Tom Elliott - 25 april 1999 - item 027300 5. James C. Bach - 26 April 1999 - item 027312 6. Steve Newcomb - 26 April 1999 - 027316 Interesting to note thaat JCB refers to marking more than one queen consecutively ...you must wash your fingers with alcohol between picking up queens. I have doubts that beekeepers carry alcohol and do do it in reality...or maybe some do ?! Please help me to clarify. Tks Vital Gaudreau Sainte. Therese, Quebec ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Farrar dual queen breeder I am looking for technical and practical information on a queen breeding system attributed to Farrar. I have only heard anecdotal stories about the system. Evidently the system excludes two breeder queens (using custom-fashioned parts cut from normal queen excluders) to two frames each in a brood chamber. The larvae are transferred from these combs. The bees are led to believe something is wrong with their queen(s) and will thus start queen cells. The system would be attractive to breeding scutellata, which "prefer" manipulation in very large colonies. Thanking you in advance Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Cloake queen breeding system I am looking for technical and practical information on the Cloake queen breeder system, which involves a temporary total exclusion of the queen to the lower brood chamber. This is achieved by inserting a metal rim above the queen excluder (which is left in place). When it must be impressed upon the bees that they have no queen, the bottom chamber is turned 180 degrees and a tin plate inserted into the rim. Bees in the bottom chamber are cut off for a short time by closing the old entrance. The new entrance is above the original, between the two brood chambers. The system would be suited to breeding scutellata queens. The African bee resentes manipulation in small colonies and easily absconds. Thanking you in advance Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:04:02 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Requeening nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote >Remove the cork from the candy end of the cage, > put a hole in the candy with a long nail. (Don't injure the queen doing > this.) Put the cage candy end up in between two frames. In 72 hours check > and remove the cage. If the queen is still there, lift the wire and let her > go on top of the frames. Having in mind what Aaron said about geography and that no way is really wrong, the above is not the way it is recommended in Australia. The recommendation is to not put a hole in the candy end. The reasoning behind this is that the longer the bees take to release the queen the better the chance of acceptance. This is whether the hive was originally queen right or queenless. We do not recommend looking at the hive before 7 days and then only with a minimum of smoke. If laying, take the cage out and leave. FWIW. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:58:59 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is a short article written by Susan Cobey at www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/cloake.htm describing Harry Cloake's method of queenrearing. > When it must be impressed upon the bees that they have no queen, the > bottom chamber is turned 180 degrees and a tin plate inserted into > the rim. I'd note that this manipulation (the actual turning of the floor end for end) only happens the one time when you're initially setting up the colony for cellraising. After that, the actual disturbance of the colony is even less intrusive... Nick Wallingford Tauranga, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:12:47 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Sergeant wrote > I am looking for technical and practical information on the Cloake > queen breeder system, which involves a temporary total exclusion of > the queen to the lower brood chamber. The original paper by Harry Cloake can be found in the Proceedings of the 26th International Congress of Apiculture of Apimondia held in Adelaide, Australia in 1977. The paper is on pages 204-206 and is titled "Queen-cell raising - My Way". Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA www.superiorbee.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids Comments: To: Vanessa de BEHR If it pleases you, I would be happy to offer any information in my possession you require on the African bee, AM scutellata. I work with scuts on a daily basis. One question I would raise would be simply, why has the scut been so demonised and its positive attributes ignored? Its positive attributes are almost endless, and many such attributes are totally lacking or partially lacking in other races of honey bee. Examples include the scuts' inherent resistance to pests and disease, eg, small hive beetle, and new problems (in Africa) such as chalkbrood and EF. And so on. When you have so many good things going for you, as the scut has, may not misbehaviour be understood, or even expected, at least on occasion? By the way, the jury is still out on verroa and the scut. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:28:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CharlesW Subject: Bad Bees! I had some really nasty bees at a friends house. I had gone and requeened them, but in doing so really got them stirred up! A few days ago my friend called and said that the bees were stinging himself, the neighbors and passers by, and that he wanted me to move the bees. I, of course, did. My problem is though, that the few straglers that were left behind (I did move them late in the evening, but quite a few still took to flight before I got them closed up) are still bothering people! I went over this morning to check out the situation, and at first, I saw no bees, but then after walking around a bit, I attracted a dozen or so. They seemed to have nothing better to do than attack. These are the most hostile bees I have encountered to date. My question is, how long will those straglers live as solitary bees? I would have guessed that they would have dispersed the next day and caused no further problems. Is there anything I can do to get rid of them faster, or is just waiting for them to die the best we can hope for? Thanks for any input, Charles Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:25:55 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi barry In New Zealand I use a variation of this system. the queen is confined to the bottom box below an excluder the second box contains a frame of capped brood a gap for the graft and a frame of pollen and a feeder the reast of the box is filled with honey and empty combs. the day befor the graft the hive is fed syrup and a frame of 30 plastic queen cups ( to condition ) The morning befor the graft the boxs are reversed and the excluder replaced with a split board ( hard board mat with 50mm entrance to the back) grafting into the bottom box can be done after half an hour. feed & close up. 12 hour later reverse the boxs , old queen to the bottom, queen excluder and grafted cells up stairs with another litre feed of syrup. 9 days later hey presto 25 to 30 nice cells. I do this to 5 hives a day every second day to requeen my 700 hives each year shaun cranfield slcranfield@xtra.co.nz Auckland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:39:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Re: Bad Bees! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've never had that problem, thank you, but if I did I think I would put an enpty hive where the old one stood, and if possible put in a bit of comb from the old one. Then after dark I'd go back,seal it up, and burn some sulfur to kill the lot. Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile - and get it over with." Charlottesville VA W.C. Fields ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:23:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Requeening nucs? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is no way to introduce a new queen if one is already there. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:29:35 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: letter to ed re imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Guardian (Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island) Tuesday, May 1, 2001 Let honey bees, insects do what they do best Editor: The soil and its products are an economic lifeline in P.E.I. The potato wart crisis may not have been preventable but other problems can be prevented before there is an economic impact if we are alert and responsive. I am a beekeeper whose beehives have been devastated in the past year. Over 80 per cent are dead. For many years, my losses were only five to 10 per cent. Other beekeepers have a similar experience. Imidacloprid is an insecticide sown in the soil or sprayed on potato crops or both. It is very effective for killing Colorado potato beetles. Unfortunately, other beneficial insects who accidentally ingest it also die. Many insecticides/fungicides are rapidly biodegraded and do not linger in the soil. Those that do, such as Imidacloprid, leave residues that go up the food chain into subsequent field crops grown in a rotation or into plants in field edges or in ditches subject to runoff. The levels of these are accumulating with subsequent crop years. Blueberries are potentially a big business in P.E.I. similar to Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Maine. Our government has invested heavily in blueberries. Insects are required to increase crop yields through better pollination up to two to three-fold. Honey bees and wild insects do the job if given the chance and are a form of crop insurance for the growers. In the past, environmentalists have gotten a bad rap for scare tactics and the like. We are what we eat — so are the bees. R.M. Mundle, Charlottetown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:29:02 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Multiple Queens In-Reply-To: <200105020053.f420rBs19524@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is no way to introduce a new queen if one is already there. That is what most people believe, and as a general rule, it is so close to true that it can be considered to be true, as it undoubtedly is in the case described. Nonetheless there are exceptions. Apparently laying queens can occasionally be found naturally working side-by-side in hives. Usually we think they are mother and daughter, nonetheless, we do not know for certain how the second queen got there. Moreover, artificial two-queening is possible. There are conditions under which a number of laying queens can be successfully introduced into a single hive. Usually the trick is to get them established and laying in separate hives or completely separated parts of the hive and then place an excluder on one brood chamber and set the other containing the second laying queen on top, maintaining separation by means of the excluder. (See the archives for more details). Apparently in season and with nectar and pollen coming in, the excluder is actually unnecessary, but AFAIK it is always used. At the end of the season, the excluder is pulled out and the belief is that one of the queens eventually disappears. People like to think it is the poorer one that perishes, but, then again, we don't really know. We are not even certain how often one perishes and how often they both carry on, since most people find one queen in a hive and quit looking. I am sure that tolerance of several queens by bees is a function of many factors, including season, locale, hive population and race of bee. I have often though that is the bees could be selected and bred to tolerate several queens like the fire ants do, that this would reduce winter loss and increase crops. I have recently heard talk by some beekeepers that there is a 'secret' technique whereby additional mated, laying queens are chased into hives in mid-spring and apparently are accepted. The results are stronger hives that produce more honey with fewer problems. I don't know if it is necessary to avoid use of excluders above the brood boxes for this trick, but I suspect that if the queens have full range of the hive that they are less likely to encounter one another. Has anyone tried this? It should be simple to find out if additional queens are accepted by simply arranging a dead bee trap to be in place for several days after chasing them in and checking it a few times starting shortly after introduction. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- It's always darkest just before it gets pitch black. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Official National Honey Board T shirt Comments: To: Bob & Liz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly. And I believe the fix is to promote U.S. honey. People everywhere seem to be keyed in to the plight of the honeybee. Folks ask me all the time how the bees are. "There's some kind of problem with the bees," they say. It wouldn't take much to convince the public that buying american honey would help solve some of our problems with higher prices. General Foods would put made with American honey on their honey nut cheerios if they thought it would boost their sales. And if a jar of honey on the shelf was correctly labeled it might help. When you buy "U.S.D.A. grade A" honey, it should mean "U.S." D.A. grade A honey. And what if those honey nut cheerios were made with honey instead of high fructose corn syrup. That would help. And having a honey board that would be willing to make these changes and promote U.S. honey in these ways would definitely help. But just promoting honey to sell more to the manufacturing sector is and has been a disaster to the U.S. beekeeper. Bob & Liz wrote: > Hello Mike & All, > > We need to fix the NHB to help with the > problem. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:13:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add another deep when seven out of the ten frames are drawn to comb. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:52:10 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry There is information about the "Cloake" system at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/method2.html The details and dimensions are to suit UK hives but they can easily be adapted to suit whatever you have in use. I am just about to start a batch using this system and there will be a sort of running commentary on IBList Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 04:01:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Farrar dual queen breeder I have located an excellent description of the system per ABJ February 1977. But has anyone had recent experience with the system? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:12:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: CONFIRM BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" By now, all BEE-L subscribers have received the annual notification that they must renew their BEE-L subscription. This annual administrative exercise removes orphaned accounts (accounts subscribed to the list but no longer owned by a human being), old accounts that have changed (the old account is removed, the new account remains), and subscribers who choose not to renew their subscription. Also removed will be users who do not follow the instructions properly. A perennial problem with LISTSERV lists is that some users simply do not learn the difference between sending correspondence to the list (BEE-L@listserv.albany.ed) and sending commands to the list server (LISTSERV@listserv.albany.edu). CONFIRM BEE-L is a command that must be sent to the list server. The confusion over sending correspondence to the list and commands to the list server is one of the reasons that BEE-L became a moderated list. In the 25 hours since renewal notices went out, about a dozen replies that should have been sent to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU have been sent directly to the list. With nearly 1000 subscribers, that would amount to over 12,000 pieces of misdirected mail! The instructions accompanying renewal notification very explicitly read, "please issue the following command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU at your earliest convenience: CONFIRM BEE-L You will be automatically removed from the list if you do not send a CONFIRM command within the next 14 days. PS: In order to facilitate the task, this message has been specially formatted so that you only need to forward it back to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU to have the command executed." During this period of confirming BEE-L subscriptions, subscribers are reminder and encouraged to review the "Guidelines for BEE-L Submissions" which can be found in Allen's web pages at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/guidelines.htm I hesitate to repeat in this post what was thoughtfully written in the "Guidelines... " Please take a moment to view them, either to refresh your memory or perhaps for the first time. The BEE-L moderators strive to provide the best possible service to internet subscribers, but the service can only be as good as its subscribers make it. Good luck in your subscription renewal! I hope subscribers will give thoughtful consideration in renewing (or not) for another year of "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology". Sincerely and respectfully submitted, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:43:02 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Bad Bees! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles write about some straggler bees: >They seemed to have nothing better >to do than attack. > These are the most hostile bees I have encountered to date. Yes, it is impossible to reason with a bee that is set on attack. I recommend that you should at least be seen as sorting the problem, in the interests of public relations. If there are sufficient stragglers to maintain warmth through the night, they could well live for a week or two. Two suggestions: The bees will certainly cluster overnight. If this is visible, an insecticide spray over the cluster should solve the problem that night. As the bees will not fly at night, as long as a torch is not actually shone on them, it should be possible to give them a lethal dose without retaliation. You could place an empty nucleus or hive body in the original position. I have done this when I have inadvertently moved hives when foragers had not finished for the night. The bees will enter the hive which can then be shut up when it is dark and the box moved. If moved to an isolated apiary, the instinctive aggression pattern will be no longer operating, and the bees could either be shaken out in front of another hive or united directly without endangering members of the public. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Bad Bees! In-Reply-To: <200105021230.f42CU7s11149@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have found that the stragglers willingly enter a hive body that contains a frame of brood. Empty hives or ones containing only empty frames are not nearly as attractive. (This works for hiving swarms as well) Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 07:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pech Subject: Re: new bees In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi....I'm New to the beekeeping world and have a question that I have,nt been able to track down in any books or archives. The other day I opened my brood super to check everything, and the bees had made comb over the frame. So much so that it was stuck on the lid. When I put the lid back on I rotated it so the stuck comb was in a differrnt place. Is this normal? Should I try and correct this now somehow? The swarm was put in abot two weeks ago and I live in Louisville Ky. Thanks Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Art, Bill, MNH" Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree w/ you about the scut. I worked w/ them for three and half yrs in Paraguay and I feel they produced fine honey. One just needs to work them a different way and it is possible to take advantage of their positive traits as you mentioned. In Paraguay, I never had to medicate. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Barry Sergeant [mailto:barry_sergeant@MYIAFRICA.COM] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:07 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Africanized hybrids If it pleases you, I would be happy to offer any information in my possession you require on the African bee, AM scutellata. I work with scuts on a daily basis. One question I would raise would be simply, why has the scut been so demonised and its positive attributes ignored? Its positive attributes are almost endless, and many such attributes are totally lacking or partially lacking in other races of honey bee. Examples include the scuts' inherent resistance to pests and disease, eg, small hive beetle, and new problems (in Africa) such as chalkbrood and EF. And so on. When you have so many good things going for you, as the scut has, may not misbehaviour be understood, or even expected, at least on occasion? By the way, the jury is still out on verroa and the scut. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:05:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Malcolm (Tom) Sanford" Subject: Fwd: Apis Guest Book Entry Comments: cc: fentont@slkc.uswest.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Thanks for the message. I am forwarding your message to the Bee-L list, perhaps someone there can help you. I also suggest contacting the Bee Culture page and looking at bee contacts in Utah. http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/who.html Tom Sanford >Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:16:15 -0400 (EDT) >From: mtsanf@grove.ufl.edu (WebMonitor mail) >Subject: Apis Guest Book Entry >To: mtsanf@grove.ufl.edu >Reply-to: mtsanf@grove.ufl.edu (WebMonitor mail) >X-Comments: ============================================================= >X-Comments: NOTE: This message was sent through the WebMonitor mail form >X-Comments: ============================================================= >X-Comments: HOST: uofu4.ics.k12.ut.us (204.113.91.19) >X-Comments: BROWSER: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (Win98; I) >X-Comments: ============================================================= >Comments: KAA16583 on willow (hop 0), Wed, 2 May 2001 10:16:15 -0400 (EDT) > >(subject) Apis Guest Book Entry >(name) Todd Fenton >(city) Nibley, Utah 84321 >(email) fentont@slkc.uswest.net >(source) >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I live in a subdivision that has a gravel pit on both sides of it.....Two >inconsiderate bee keepers bring in semi-loads of hives in the spring and >for a few months we are covered with bees....Our cars, trailers, boats, >RV's,etc. are covered daily with bee feces...You must wash your cars every >day...This has gone on for the last three years and we have contacted the >bee owners with no success...Some neighbors are getting mad enough they >want to destroy the bees but I hate to see that happen.......What can I >do?? Can bees be repelled?? I am afraid that soon some will set out or >spray poisons around their yards....We have multiple bee stings and people >are tired of taking their children to the Emer Room for care.......Can you >provide any help?? > > Todd Fenton > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:34:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Farrar dual queen breeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Two points to remember when using a Farrar two queen system. !. Most years they don't outproduce two *strong* hives *enough* to *warrent * the extra work. In times of dearth they will simply because they forage out farther. Above is my opinion and experience from using (small number of two queen hives)and recreating Farrar two queens since I read the first article detailing Farrar's work in the November 1965 *Gleanings of Bee Culture* pg. 679. 2. All Farrar's research is based on using five brood boxes with 6 1/4 depth frames and 12 frames to a box. I had trouble converting his method for Langstroth deeps. Farrar was doing research on honey production vs colony population at the time. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:23:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Two queen hives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Use of 1 versus 2 queens is often hotly debated - mostly in the absence of hard data. The following is personal opinion based on 30 yrs of experience, both from our research and observations of 1 and 2 queen hives in commercial and hobbyist operations. 1. Although colonies usually tolerate only one queen, we have seen many colonies with two queens, both nucleus and full-sized commercial - with no elxcluders and no intent by the beekeeper to run a two queen colony. 2. We expect 20-30% or more of the queens in colonies to supercede before the end of the summer (most of the colonies that do this, do so when the queen excluders are put in place or when extra supers are dropped on the hives). And , we have the numbers to back up this observation. 3. Colony management varies greatly from one part of the U.S. to another. What works for you may not work for someone else. The most successful 2 queen operations that we have seen, start with two queen colonies, then go to 1 queen by end of season - 2 queen colonies have split clusters and often don't overwinter well. 4. My guess is that reports of better production with two queen are simply a reflection that the colony will always have at least one queen present during the growing season. Queen less colonies stop thermoregulating, often stop gathering pollen, and even if a new queen is produced, you have a lengthy brood break - which slows down the colony dynamics. 5. If you tightly manage colonies and quickly replace failed or lost queens, 2 queen system probably are of little or no benefit. If you can only occasionally get to your colonies, 2 queens may be a form of insurance policy. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:40:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Two queen hives In-Reply-To: <200105021624.f42GOos23759@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am relaying to the list the edited contents of two off-list messages with the permission of the author. --- Interesting post. One fall while doing inspections for interstate migration a beekeeper and I found 4 laying queens in one colony. Interesting situation and have not seen that many any other time. We had a beekeeper here in MN who would double up his colonies for wintering in the fall - just stacked them up together without newspaper or anything. He said that in the spring when he split the hives back apart that about 10% had two laying queens - he ordered 10% fewer queens than the colonies he had from experience. When I asked if he had ever tried to run some of those colonies with two queens to see if they would produce more honey he said " I never thought of that just figured I didn't need to buy so many queens." There is at least one beekeeper in the Canadian prairies who runs in a second queen when he takes off the first supers with a fume board. What he does is spray both the queen and the colony with a solution of vanilla and water and runs the queen in the front of the colony. With the disturbance of the fume board and the vanilla masking the scent of the colony most of the time both queens lay for some time in the colony and many overwinter that way and go on to produce nice honey crops the next year. I have not tried this but could this be the "secret" method of two queening with very little additional manipulation? Now this issue is interesting but the possible similarities with IFA may actually raise a red flag. It appears to me from reading some articles on the fire ant situation with multiple queens that the ants simply cannot distinguish one queen or one colony from another and in effect you get these very large "super colonies" that encompass all the fire ant colonies in an amazingly large area. The implication to me is that if that were to happen with bees that the whole yard would have to be considered as one colony and bees would move freely from one colony to another which would have some implications for colony management that may not be all good. Because of this it would be a direction to proceed with some caution but I am not saying we shouldn't explore this aspect of honey bee biology and beekeeping just to be aware that there could be negative effects as well as benefits. My question is in a nutshell " Is this in essence the state of that rouge cape bee strain that is causing problems in South Africa?" If it is we don't want it but we don't know if it is or not or will lead in that direction. Again a very interesting area of honey bee biology that has many implications for honey bee management and beekeeping. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:37:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Two queen hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allen wrote: "... The implication (of one very large "super colonies" is) that the whole yard would have to be considered as one colony and bees would move freely from one colony to another which would have some implications for colony management that may not be all good...." I hope my paraphrasing is not stating things that Allen did not say. But, is this not very close to what Babe did with her 8-colony bear-proof setup? She effectively set up an 8-queen "super colony" where the bees moved freely amongst colonies and supers. I cannot speculate regarding this and the Cape bee. /Aa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:32:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: anatomy of worker honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found this <988811510.24095.0.nnrp-08.9e98e8c9@news.demon.co.uk> in sci.agriculture.beekeeping: -= BEGIN forwarded message =- From: "bees" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Subject: anatomy For a project we are involved in we are seeking some information about the anatomy of worker honey bees, their size, shape etc. We are not so interested in internal anatomy. Has anyone studied the range of sizes of worker bees, size of head, thorax, body eyt. We intend to construct an accurate 3D model on computer and need either accurate scale top and side views or precise photographs. The anthropometric data for humans is well documented with sizes measured between joint centres. IS there anything similar available for bees. I cannot say very much about the project at present but it is very exciting and I will publish the 3D data of the bee for all to use when complete. Mike Pearson Pearson Matthews Design Ltd mike.pearson@pearsonmatthews.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:27:51 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Two queen hives In-Reply-To: <200105021826.f42IQws01050@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question is in a nutshell " Is this in essence the state > of that rouge cape bee strain that is causing problems in > South Africa?" If it is we don't want it but we don't know > if it is or not or will lead in that direction. I've been wondering the same thing. After Gloria's talk at the AFB, I have become aware that we are seeing behaviours in the AHB in Arizona that may be somewhat suggestive of Cape Bee behaviour. I'm thinking of the invasion of other colonies by workers and by queens. I have wondered if the problems that are being seen in AHB in the Americas have something to do with having some Cape Bee blood in the mix. Something odd is going on. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world. -- Dave Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: bee-lining boxes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm looking for a couple of wooden bee-lining or "bee-hunting" boxes. If you can help, please reply off-list, so that we don't turn BEE-L into Antiques Roadshow. Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 South Willard St., Burlington, VT 05401 Phone: 802-863-4938 Fax: 802-864-7982 Bee Happy in your work! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:03:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Fwd: Apis Guest Book Entry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Todd & All, I guess I will try to answer Todd. The problem Todd and his subdivison have got is happening all over the U.S. around cities with urban sprawl. I would guess the beekeepers have been using the gravel pits for many many years. I prefer gravel pits and old rock quaries because you can always get in and out in bad weather and the sweet clover goes tall from all the limestone. There is a reason the beekeepers are sitting down over 800 hives in one spot. I don't know the reason so can only guess. Raising queens,requeening or splitting. If Utah has registered bee locations and the gravel pits are a registered location then you may have trouble forcing the beekeepers to move. Using Florida & rabbits as a example: The grandfather ordinance in Florida is written that if you were say raising rabbits and they change the zoning you can still raise rabbits but after the zoning changes you can never keep any more rabbits than you kept at any given time in the past. When the nuisance is a business that has been operating for years judges lean towards the grandfathered in business. Point is changing zoning laws might not help in your case. The city of DeLand, Florida(city I grew up in) has tried to move H.Bell Honey for as long as I can remember. Point is if you build a subdivision across the street from a bee farm then in the eyes of the law in most states you should have known better. The reason I am not saying go talk to the beekeepers is because I believe you allready have. I will give up a *out yard* location if there is a problem with people. I won't however relocate my main operation because of neighbors building across the street from me. I got a neighbor which has built a mansion right next to my drive entrance. So far he hasn't complained but he would have had to have been blind not to see the huge *bee farm* sign when he bought the bare land and built his house. I was here first. The day he looked at the land I had 70+ hives sitting in my orchard 300 feet from the location he built his house. . One day he will be sitting out on his deck and the stray bee will sting him and he will decide its time *I* moved. Probbably will be a yellow jacket sting but I will still get the blame. I give all my neighbors a basket of honey and candles each Christmas and will always help if there is a problem I can help with. Back to the original question. I called two commercial beekeepers and both said the same thing. They would relocate the outyard if the bees were causing as big of a problem as you describe. Both agreed the beekeepers were not in the pits collecting honey but doing hive work. Thus stirring up bees. In my opinion you have two choices Todd. Try to talk the beekeepers into bringing in less bees or relocating. If that doesn't work then contact a lawyer to see if you can force the beekeepers to move. Setting out poison will most likely end up costing you money if the USDA traces the source of the poison back to your subdivision. I have got a gravel pit location in Lone Jack, Missouri which I put 6 skids or 24 hives. The neighbors have never complained. The location is within the city limits. If I sat 800+ hives in the gravel pit then I am sure problems like you decribe would happen. Before hobby beekeepers lash out at Todd and his subdivision please go out to a commercial beekeepers and see how many bees are involved with 800 hives in one location. I do sympathize with Todd and the sudivision. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ps. I would rather have not responded to Todd but felt obligated. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Farrar dual queen breeder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob wrote: I read the first article detailing Farrar's work in the November 1965 *Gleanings of Bee Culture* pg. 679. Farrar's method is different than any two queen system I have seen. The main differences is that Farrar moved the bees up and down through the five(sometimes six brood chambers with drilled auger holes. He also reversed all brood chambers every 7 days. I believe using the 6 5/8 boxes this might work but with Langstroth deeps I found you would be splitting the brood nest more than I thought necessary. I could never find out exactly how Farrar reversed. A noted researcher at the time said it didn't mater just reverse. The last major difference between the Farrar two queen and others was not putting supers in between the upper and lower brood chambers. This Farrar concept I found worked OK. Farrar also said to go back to single queen status after all honey supers were off. I discontinued going back to single queen after the supers were off after the first year and went to the standard method. I never understood why you would want two queens laying eggs so late in the season. Using the Farrar method hives could starve because of wintering so many bees and not being able to supplement feed due to bad weather conditions in the north.. The Madole two queen system first wrote about in 1967 and in a ABJ article in 1985 works well in northern areas. Madole had used the system himself for twenty years before writing the article. Madole and I were friends and discussed his methods on many occasions. We were members of the same bee club. Another system I have tried with success is by John Hogg. Johns article shows a picture of two queens fighting over a queen excluder. I believe John went on to invent the Hogg cassette for comb honey. His system of two queen is in ABJ January of 1981. The instructions in the article are very precise and tells exact number of days to do each operation. Sincerely, Bob Harrison "The queen bee never stings unless she has such a advantage in the combat that she can curve her body under that of her rival in such a manner as to inflict a deadly wound without risk of being stung herself" L.L.Langstroth(1853) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 23:02:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Multiple Queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> There is no way to introduce a new queen if one is already there. > >That is what most people believe, and as a general rule, it is so close to true >that it can be considered to be true, as it undoubtedly is in the case >described. > >Nonetheless there are exceptions. Apparently laying queens can occasionally be >found naturally working side-by-side in hives. Usually we think they are mother I agree with allen about exceptions to the rule. Maybe the rules are wrong? My observations are that mated queens are less aggressive towards each other than virgins. Mated queens in laying condition are even less aggressive. Workers are also less aggressive towards queens which are currently laying. I usually release mated laying queens from mating nucs direct into another colony with out a queen cage, after removing the other queen. This will not work with a mated queen that has been confined in a queen cage for a day or more. When I cannot find the old queen I release the new queen into the hive. This does not happen very often since I mark my queens. Later I usually find the new marked queen in the hive with the previous marked queen, both laying. Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:37:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: new bees In-Reply-To: <200105021445.f42Ejis17396@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My bees sometimes build come above the top bars of the frames (Between the frames and the inner lid.) when they are crowded- not enought space, or are running out of space to store honey. Give them more room! Scrape out the wild comb- if you leave it thre it is just going to cause problems again when they reattach it to the lid. Makes a real mess. When I examine my hives I clean up any "wild" or bur comb that they build just to keep things tidy and easier for me to work. (The space between the lid and the top of the frames can hold about 5 lbs of honey, and it makes a real mess when you break it up!) Ellen pech wrote: Hi....I'm New to the beekeeping world and have a question that I have,nt been able to track down in any books or archives. The other day I opened my brood super to check everything, and the bees had made comb over the frame. So much so that it was stuck on the lid. When I put the lid back on I rotated it so the stuck comb was in a differrnt place. Is this normal? Should I try and correct this now somehow? The swarm was put in abot two weeks ago and I live in Louisville Ky. Thanks Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:36:37 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Marking existing queens In-Reply-To: <200105011729.f41HTis27133@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200105011729.f41HTis27133@listserv.albany.edu>, Vital Gaudreau writes >Interesting to note thaat JCB refers to marking more than one queen >consecutively ...you must wash your fingers with alcohol between picking >up queens. I have doubts that beekeepers carry alcohol and do do it in >reality...or maybe some do ?! This is probably one of these things, which abound in beekeeping, that can be statistically demonstrable as linked factors (marking/clipping and queen failure), yet at a practical level are insignificant, or only slightly so. In the two week period during which we mark and clip ALL our queens (right now) I can handle and mark and clip up to 200 queens in one day, and NEVER clean my fingers with alcohol. Actually, given our bees dislike of alcohol I can think of few ways more likely to get me stung on the tips of the fingers. I do not like being stung under the nail as it is 'a little uncomfortable' and can 'bring forth intemperate language'. (Sorry George, I know what you said in a previous post about queen clipping/marking. Have done it all ways and concluded that for management reasons in our system and environment it is ESSENTIAL if we are to cope. Thus I could not agree with your blanket condemnation of the practice. Unclipped especially is like sitting on a powderkeg with the swarming propensity of the black bee. Then again we are possibly NOT in disagreement, as we use it for delaying swarming until we are next there, rather than as an out and out prevention mechanism which it patently is not. You just get that key few days more.) We do not find that there is any appreciable increase in supercedure or other damage linked problems. Examinations cause far more trouble. We need to be able to find the queens quickly in high summer, and thus marking is essential for this and the speed repays handsomely the time spent finding them all in spring, plus clipping will delay the departure of the old queen swarm until at least there is a cell close to hatching, without clipping she can go as soon as the cells are elongating, even before sealing. Just buys us enough time to get round the colonies, and in addition, the old queen swarm does not go far without wings, usually found as a pudding on the ground or on a nearby weed. Easy to catch and hive, compared to 40 feet up a tree, or a mile away, or in another beekeepers bait hive, all of which will sometimes happen if she can fly. Back to the queen damage bit and causes for her to die/be superceded after clipping marking. I suppose a lot could be down to how you do it. If you grip her by any part of her body it must be a whole lot more risky than our method. I see the queen and wait for her (sometimes with encouragement) to be in a good position, and quickly pick her up by the wings between the forefinger and thumb of your good hand. You DO get used to this and quickly get the knack. Holding her thus, allow her to gently grip the tip of your other forefinger with her legs. When she is in the correct position catch at least the two large legs on one side of the body between that forefinger and the thumb. You now have the queen held securely in your less god hand, leaving the good hand free to do the important stuff. First we quickly clip her wings, one or both sides, it does not matter, but get at least one full pair, back to one third or less of their original length, but not right back to the thorax. In other words, leave a decent stump. Then give a quick spot of the proper colour (you do not need to do this, any highly visible colour will do, but we like to know how old she is) on the thorax (we use vehicle touch up paint, the kind with a little brush in the tube). Then just pop her back into the hive. No putting her in a match box for the paint to dry or any other niceties. Just do not use too much paint as a smeared queen with paint in about her wing roots will very likely get superceded. Before I let any new starter with us do this work we let them do it to drones for practice, and only once they get that right will they be let loose to mark queens. Until then they find the queen and call me or my brother over to mark it. The inexperienced will have one or two disasters before they are able to be assured in their work, but that is life. They need to learn and the time savings at year end far outweigh the effects of any damage they do. One further thing about supercedure. It is not a tragedy as once it has happened you have no further major management issues regarding swarming that season with that colony. I even heard of a beekeeper who actually goes round all his colonies in spring and pulls a leg or two off the old queen. She generally continues to lay whilst a successor is raised, and thus requeening is achieved relatively seamlessly. I've never tried it but it sounds plausible enough. In the end it is probably most important for the beginner to remember that nature is the great curer in queen related matters. It is actually quite a laborious task to render a fully functional colony hopelessly queenless, ie with no queen and no hope of raising one. So, barring failure of the new queen due to missmating or non mating and thus rolling up with a drone layer, nature will normally take its course and a new queen will result. Things like laying workers which crop up on this list from time to time are actually relatively unusual and we will only see them in a couple of cases (out of 1800) each season. One further important thing about queen marking. We NEVER mark the queen in the season of her birth. They are just too active and energetic at that time so risk of damage is greatly higher, and it is not required for management purposes as we do not examine the nest of colonies with current seasons queens (in our environment with short seasons it means that swarming is highly unlikely and certainly not frequent enough to merit looking). Thus, in our first spring round we mark all queens not previously marked with the previous years colour (we are using blue, the 2000 colour, this spring, and anything born this year will not be marked (white) till spring 2002. This has been a lot longer than I intended, but I hope it shows that there are different factors at play in different areas, and if you would prefer to clip and/or mark your queens there is no need to fear the consequences so long as you are not too rough. Hope you are all having a nice spring. Ours has just started after a long winter. Murray -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 02:04:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: new bees In-Reply-To: <200105030613.f436Dds04208@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The other day I opened my brood super to check everything, > > and the bees had made comb over the frame. So much so > > that it was stuck on the lid. > Scrape out the wild comb- if you leave it there it is just > going to cause problems again when they reattach it to the lid. Not all bees have heard about bee space since AFAIK no living bee has ever met Langstroth and have a great deal of difficulty opening our books. Bee space is a principle that man has declared bees will obey, yet there are many different types of bees and each nest is an individual. Bees will stick down lids from time to time even if the bee space is 'correct'. You may wish to read about bee space and the various opinions about it in the BEE-L archives at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ by entering the words bee space into the search pane. While many beekeepers choose to enforce bee space and scrape off any offending piece of comb, others of us have a much more lax view and see these constructions as the expressions of individual decorating taste they really are and tolerate them if they are not actually dangerous to the bees or they do not stick things up too much. In fact they can be useful for those of us who are looking for ways to work with the bees and see ourselves as their allies, rather than their masters. As it happens, there is an artist in Manitoba, Canada by the name of Aganetha Dick (no relation) that works with hives of bees to create new and wonderful shapes of comb that she presents to the (human) public as 'Art'. I don't do that, and I am not even sure I approve, but I do like a bit of ladder comb on top bars because we use a pillow rather than a wooden inner cover, and the wax lifts the pillow enough that the bees can pass freely under it. You can see pictures at various places in my diary at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary if you so wish. allen --- Prediction is very difficult, especially of the future. -- Niels Bohr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:43:50 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: anatomy of worker honey bees Comments: cc: mike.pearson@pearsonmatthews.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mike/Allen The external anatomy of honey bees is generally known as morphometry and much of this is done by breeders in Europe and UK. There is some elemental stuff at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/morphometry.html There is also much published by BIBBA, GBBG, (mainly Apis mellifera, mellifera) there is info on the measurements of Carniolan bees on various German sites. Try these Search words Wing Morphometry, Overhair length, Tomentum width, Tongue length, Discoidal shift, Cubital Index. There is wide variation between species so that these measurements can be used to define the "breed". The statistics of the variances then tell us the degree of purity or hybridisation. This means that you will have to generate a "model" for each species. Perhaps when you have collected your data, you will share it with the list. I am particularly interested, at the moment, in the correlation between thorax dimensions and the cell size that the bee was raised in. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:55:50 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: new bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > My bees sometimes build comb above the top bars of the frames (Between the frames and > the inner lid.) The bees may well be crowded, but you should measure the space between the top surface of your frame topbars and the under surface of your inner lid. This space should not be less than 6 mm or more than 9 mm. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:49:18 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I understand there is some interest in this at the moment. I am about to start a batch using the method outlined on my page http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/method2.html The weather in UK is a little cold and wet, so I have delayed a couple of days. I thought a little background into the particular circumstances behind this queen rearing/increase exercise may help to explain why I chose this particular method at this time. I have been breeding bees for more than 20 years, but due to ill health my operation has dwindled over the last six years until last year I had only 5 colonies and one nuc left. Two of these had AMM queens that were the result of 20 years of selection. In early January all the hives (and many empty ones) were vandalised. I rescued one bunch of bees that were clustering in the debris that had been a mongrel swarm the previous year. This has developed to cover ten British frames in two brood boxes. The bees have turned dark brown, so one of my "good" queens must have joined the others during the smash up. So I have one largish colony, headed by a queen that I want to produce offspring from. I will have to take pot luck with the drones on this occasion but my stock has had quite an influence on the area for a good many years and another breeding station three miles away uses compatible stock. The version of the method that I am employing, ends up with the cell finishing colony split into nucs to do the mating. At the time of this splitting the original queen will be stored with a frame of brood in a nuc. Then each of the nucs will be developed. I will provide more information "as it happens". Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:14:09 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Marking existing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Vital I have never marked unmated queens but I have marked and clipped queens around thirty at a time sequentially, using the method shown on http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/clipmark.html I did not wash my fingers between queens and I do not recall any problems. The mating nucs contain small frames that are of such a size that the total frame area is about equal to one langstroth deep frame. with 1000 -1500 bees. I would be wary of using larger nucs in this fashion as the queen pheramone (weak in a very young queen) would be spread too thinly among the larger number of bees. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Marking existing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by beeman@GCI.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove the entirety of a previous submission. ----------------- Original message (ID=1A46F99F) (69 lines) ------------------- Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 16:05:20 -0800 From: Tom Elliott To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: Marking existing queens Vital, Since you referenced my post I will simply respond that I have marked queens at various times of the year (keep in mind that here in Alaska our season is short) and never had a negative reaction. I am erratic about marking queens so I sometimes do not, and other times do it when ever I get to it. Also I have never marked more than 4 queens at any one time so I never worried about queen odor on my fingers. In any case, I hold the queen only by the wings, so odor would be less of a problem (if it is a problem). I have never clipped queens, and see no value to such a process. My reading suggests that a clipped queen is more likely to be superseded early than non clipped queens. I do not have any reference for that, but perhaps someone else here will set me straight. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:17:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fwd: Apis Guest Book Entry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > Hello Todd & All, > I guess I will try to answer Todd. Bob's comments are excellent. I would add that even though a use is grand fathered and can continue at the location, how the use is managed is still under the zoning laws. Beekeeping is not the issue here. It is the beekeepers and the way they are managing their hives so as not to create a problem. If they are doing so responsibly, then they have the law on their side. If they are not, then the law is on your side. But, having said that, I suggest you contact the areas Codes Enforcement Officer or whatever their title might be- the person responsible for enforcing the town/city/whatever's zoning laws. The CEO can determine if it is a permitted use of the land and that the beekeepers are operating within the constraints of that use. If it is not a permitted use and not grand fathered, they will have to move. If it is grand fathered but they have expanded the use, they will have to scale it back. If they determine that the beekeepers are not operating within the constraints of that use, they will have to comply with the constraints imposed by the law and may have to move or decrease the size of the operation. If they determine that the use is permitted and the beekeepers are operating within the constraints of that use, then see if there is a local Beekeeping organization and ask them to take a look at what is going on. To find the organization you will probably have to work through the State Agriculture Department, or check the AI Root site and Bee Culture magazine for State contacts. In Mass. the beekeepers helped get the hives of a beekeeper who was not managing their bees moved to a new location where they were no longer a problem. Beekeepers do not want bad eggs to spoil it for the majority. They will be able to tell you if what is going on is appropriate and might work with the beekeepers to fix the problem. If that does not work, then try politics and see if the local rep will help defuse the problem. And, if all of the above has not worked, I would hire a lawyer and sue. But you will have to show it is a beekeeper problem and not a bee problem. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:56:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Apis Guest Book Entry Comments: cc: fentont@slkc.uswest.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/2/01 11:19:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mtsanf@UFL.EDU forwards: << FromTodd Fenton >(email) fentont@slkc.uswest.net >I live in a subdivision that has a gravel pit on both sides of it.....Two >inconsiderate bee keepers bring in semi-loads of hives in the spring and >for a few months we are covered with bees.... >> Who was there first? Is this a rural area that built up? It's hard to believe the beekeepers are dumb enough to move into a populated area. More likely they were there for years, and people moved in. Beekeepers are being pushed this way and that, along with other farmers, by folks who move into their territory. City folks move to the country because they like the rural atmosphere, then they try to sanitize the rural environment. When they find out that manure stinks and bees sting, they want to harass and sue the farmer. After they drive the farmers and beekeepers out of business, who will feed us? I had a prime bee yard at the end of a dead end road in an extremely rural spot. It was the kind of bee yard beekeepers love, because you could drive right into it after five inches of rain, and there was enough forage to support a lot more hives than most yards. A guy from the city moved a doublewide across the road from the yard entrance, and I began to get calls. Every time he saw a bee on his property (or a yellow jacket) he would call me and threaten to poison the bees or sue me. Believe me, it's hard to find new locations. I love to work with the bees, and took great pride in being a major player in your food supply. (If you got a sweet watermelon from South Carolina, the farmer got bees from me!) But I got burned out from dealing with the pesticide misuse (that kills bees) and other human problems, including city folks that move to the country and harass the farmers and beekeepers. This spring I retired. There are only about 1400 full time beekeeper operations left in the USA, and most are pretty discouraged. Who will replace these? They are responsible, thru pollination service, for much of the produce you see in your supermarket. So which is it? If you were there and the beekeeper moved in, he must be a pretty stupid beekeeper, and probably deserves your harassment. If you moved in, then you should put up and shut up, because he puts food on your plate every day. I have looked into the eyes of starving children, and, believe me, I don't want to see it happen in America. For more about the critical situation with pollinators, see The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com Dave Green SC USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Slaughter, Frank" Subject: Carniolans and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I want to try a couple of hives of Carniolans (from California) this year. All the literature I can find says the Carniolans have a strong tendency to swarm. I know that Sue Coby at OSU has pretty much eliminated this through selection (New World Carniolan) in her bees but I wonder how commercial hives measure up.... Any information is appreciated! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: hobby/sideline/commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can anyone point me to a definitive publication outlining the definitions of what numbers of hives differentiate a hobbiest from a sideliner from a commercial beekeeper? My understanding is 50 hives or less constitutes a sideliner; 51-250 constitutes a sideliner; > 250 is commercial. I need an authorative definition, one that will stand up in court. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Carniolans and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank, First thing to realize is carniolans can't be managed the same as Italians or caucasians with the same degree of success. Here is what I have found to work the best after studying old ABJ's about the race then using the info. I recommend not using queen ex.(not that you can't) accept for comb honey. Use the old style of unlimited brood nests to run them, three deep hive bodies. Keep the brood chambers from plugging up with honey and keep the queen down by reversing as needed. Carniolan queens can be very prolific so watch out for congestion. Make sure you place on at least two deep honey supers on early(4 shallows, ect.). In a three deep configuration bees come through winter very strong. Less feeding is required in the fall as there is an extra body FULL of honey( don't be one of those who take it and replace with sugar/corn syrup). Supplemental feeding is fine just not complete replacement(so don't rake me over the coals guys). If you use unlimited brood nest swarming will be minimized. Don't think that just because you have three chambers in place every thing is OK, make sure it isn't plugged. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:06:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Re: Marking existing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . I even heard of a beekeeper who actually > goes round all his colonies in spring and pulls a leg or two off the old > queen. She generally continues to lay whilst a successor is raised, and > thus requeening is achieved relatively seamlessly. I've never tried it > but it sounds plausible enough. > > Murray > -- > Murray McGregor In his excellent article on queen clipping/marking the above paragraph made me wince. I pictured Murray arriving at the Pearly Gates to find God was a queen bee. " Murray McGregor, aren't you the one who told all those Bee-L'rs about ripping off queens legs?". I know honeybees are wired differently than humans and do not feel pain in the same way. And I realize when you are trying to make a living at beekeeping some bee blood must be spilled. However, ripping the legs off queens strikes me as unnecessary cruelty. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:45:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial In-Reply-To: <200105031512.f43FCts18141@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Can anyone point me to a definitive publication outlining the definitions of > what numbers of hives differentiate a hobbyist from a sideliner from a > commercial beekeeper? My understanding is 50 hives or less constitutes a > sideliner; 51-250 constitutes a sideliner; > 250 is commercial. I need an > authorative definition, one that will stand up in court. Unfortunately, a definition is not that simple. The distinction is primarily determined by what portion of a person's normal income is from the beekeeping operation. That is further complicated by the question of whether the person has an adequate income to live, extraordinary income in one year, is retired, etc. It is conceivable, but not common -- or easy -- to make a living from the activities surrounding, and products from, as few as 50 hives. What a person says he is, advertises he is, and how he spends his days have some bearing too. If a man claims to be a doctor and has a full-time medical practice, then he may also conceivably own a commercial bee operation, or own part of one, but is more likely to be considered a doctor. But if he has hired adequate help and does the proper commercial things, he may well be considered a commercial operator. Different jurisdictions and associations have their own definitions for their own purposes. I am afraid that the definition of each category depends on the use to which it is being put. One thing is clear: if the beekeeper does not ever produce significant income or manage in a manner indicating clear intent to make a consistent net profit, then he/she is a hobbyist in the eyes of all. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- No small art is it to sleep: it is necessary for that purpose to keep awake all day. -- Nietzsche ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:02:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Marking existing queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/3/01 11:55:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haymedhon@MIDBC.COM writes: << I know honeybees are wired differently than humans and do not feel pain in the same way. And I realize when you are trying to make a living at beekeeping some bee blood must be spilled. However, ripping the legs off queens strikes me as unnecessary cruelty. >> I made a living from bees for years, but I have a problem with this as well. I would much rather kill a queen instantly, by pinching her head, than by maiming her. Who knows what suffering this could cause? We humans have pretty much full reign in our choices of actions with animals, but that doesn't mean we are not accountable. Way back in early Genesis, we are told that God has a covenant with every living thing. That would certainly include bees. I have to have a very good reason to kill bees, and I'd have to have an even better reason to cause them to suffer. Or I'd have trouble living with myself. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:30:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Pollinator Images on the Net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many of you know that I am trying to get images of flowers and pollinators. Many of these can be found at http://pollinator.com/gallery/gallery.htm though I am taking pictures faster than I can get them up on the web page. We are also adding some movie clips. It is no easy task to get the bees to smile and pose for the camera. Honeybees are the easiest, as they tend to ignore you. But they move on, and often when the shutter clicks, you only have a flower in view. Other bees/insects are downright spooky, and won't let you within ten feet of them. Add to this the tendency of the flowers to wave around in the breeze, going in and out of focus. I now have a real appreciation of what it takes to get good photos of bees and other pollinators. I have discovered a master at what I am just beginning to learn. Y'all GOT to go see the AWESOME images that Dr. Heinz Schneider has posted on his website: Botanical Image Database: http://www.unibas.ch/botimage/ Go to the pollinator section and check it out! Don't be in a hurry, you may be browsing all evening here. There's almost 300 high quality pollinator images. I just had to give a bow to the work of a master. And it's so nice that he is sharing it with us on the web. Dave Green SC USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > One thing is clear: if the beekeeper does not ever produce significant income or > manage in a manner indicating clear intent to make a consistent net profit, then > he/she is a hobbyist in the eyes of all. Would that it were that simple. I did not give all the details behind my question. The latest chapter in the saga of my neighbor who poisoned my bees is tonight when I am to appear at a Zoning Board of Appeals hearing. My village does not have a local law banning beekeeping, and in fact, during the 8 years I sat on the Board of Trustees, the village passed a "Right to Farm Law" that explicitly includes apiculture as an encouraged activity! Small village politics have pitted me against the mayor, who cannot shut down my beekeeping activity (by virtue of the "Right to Farm Law") so I've been cited for running a commercial business in a residential zone. I'm hoping to at least gain a reprieve by showing I'm practicing a hobby, not running a business. In fact, the number of hives I normall run clearly puts me outside the hobby catagory, but as my current numbers are recovering from the neighbor's poisoning I am below my normal numbers. I'm hoping I can make this go away on a technicality. And for the record, I have moved my bees outside of village residential limits. Not to protect my neighbors from my bees, but to protect my bees from my neighbors. More details as they develop and time allows. /Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 15:07:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Kim Flottum, Editor Bee Culture" Subject: God's a She... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of the years of monitering this list have been enlightening, but nothing, not one thing has caused more delight than the image of God being a Queen Bee.... Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:55:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?Martin_Hrom=E1dko?= Subject: Re: Carniolans and swarming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have Carniolans bee in Czech republic, and you can believe me that swarmi ng is dependent more on beekeepr than bees. Young queens, big area and a lot of work for workers - you will not have any swarm. Nice day Martin Czech republic ----- Original Message ----- From: Slaughter, Frank To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:53 PM Subject: Carniolans and swarming > I want to try a couple of hives of Carniolans (from California) this year. > All the literature I can find says the Carniolans have a strong tendency t o > swarm. I know that Sue Coby at OSU has pretty much eliminated this through > selection (New World Carniolan) in her bees but I wonder how commercial > hives measure up.... Any information is appreciated! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 21:18:35 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Marking existing queens In-Reply-To: <200105031554.f43FsWs20382@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In article <200105031554.f43FsWs20382@listserv.albany.edu>, Ted Hancock writes > I know honeybees are wired differently than humans and do not feel >pain in the same way. And I realize when you are trying to make a living at >beekeeping some bee blood must be spilled. However, ripping the legs off >queens strikes me as unnecessary cruelty. Me too, of course, hence I have never done this kind of thing......on purpose...., but we have probably all accidentally harmed a queen whilst working a colony. Natural damage is commonplace to the legs as well, particularly if multiple virgins hatch and fight it out, or if there has been some balling going on. Such queens do not normally continue on to a ripe old age. It was just an anecdote about the practices of another person to illustrate to some extent why we should not get TOO paranoid about queen damage. Things have a great way of working themselves out and if this can be turned to our advantage all the better. Some will just have different ways of doing it, and in his case he deliberately provoked supercedure. As I said not for me, but I am not going to say this old guy had it wrong. It seemed to work for him, and had some logic (albeit a cruel logic) behind it. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I am to appear at a Zoning Board of Appeals hearing. My village does not > have a > local law banning beekeeping, and in fact, during the 8 years I sat on the > Board of > Trustees, the village passed a "Right to Farm Law" that explicitly includes > apiculture as an encouraged activity! > > Small village politics have pitted me against the mayor, who cannot shut > down my > beekeeping activity (by virtue of the "Right to Farm Law") so I've been > cited for > running a commercial business in a residential zone. I'm hoping to at least > gain > a reprieve by showing I'm practicing a hobby, not running a business. The easiest way to show you are not running a business is your tax return. How do you report any income? If you use the sked c then you are running a business. But you are probably not commercial. Check the land use codes and see just what the definition of Commercial is. If there is not one, then check a good dictionary and pick the one that is most in your favor. Commercial usually means that it is your primary business and also denotes the kind of business run out of a building dedicated for just that use. A farm could actually be out of the definition of Commercial in the Codes but come under another category. Look at all the definitions that apply, including farm, business, home business, hobbies, etc.. you will probably find that you are in agriculture and not in commercial. Since the village has a right to farm law, is it encouraging farms as a business? If so, contact your State Dept. of ag and get them to confirm that you fit under the right to farm umbrella as a business. Also, check to see when the ordinances went into effect, specifically the commercial clauses. You may be grand fathered even if you do not fit. I would get a copy of the land use code or zoning regs and look it over. Usually they are fairly clear on permitted uses and also in conditional uses. Also look at other activities in your area and show they are similar to what you are doing in a business sense, for instance artists who derive an income from painting in their homes and selling the paintings. Small repair shops. Plumbers and electricians who use their home as an office. There are a variety of small business that are run out of the home that are commercial but not commercial in the sense the mayor is using. The more examples of people engaged in these semi-commercial/business/hobby interests, the worse it will be for him to single you out. Also, bring supporters to back you up including people mentioned above who might lose their ability to make a living if the code is interpreted too narrowly. Crowd the meeting. It is amazing how a crowd can affect the outcome at a ZBA meeting. Some members are easily swayed. And politicians are the easiest. There is usually a lot of case law on things like these. The Codes Officer may have it and could let you see it. One key in all Zoning Law is that the ZBA should, in cases of ambiguity, lean in favor of the landowner. They often do not and have to be reminded. If you have a State Apiarist or Bee Inspector, invite them to the meeting as your expert witness. Get the local beekeeping organizations to attend and support you with what exists in neighboring towns with similar rules (and they generally are similar since there is not much originality in Land use Codes). If I recall, Dewey Caron had a lot of info on bees and the law. You might also want to contact him. Good luck and bring a crowd. (Make sure they are well behaved and non-argumentative.) Bill Truesdell (Chairman, Bath, Me. ZBA) Bath, Me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 22:09:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Had my first swam last Sunday and was able to catch it!! Was a little nervous at first but really learned a lot on what to and not to do. My question is after putting bees into a new hive body some bees staying at he front entrance facing away from the hive and fanning, any idea why? Thanks for you time, Rodney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:04:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came over the transom. It is a MUST READ: --- Thought you might be interested in this nice summary of imidacloprid. You can view it at www.pesticide.org/imidacloprid.pdf The scientist who prepared it is Caroline Cox and ... she got the soil persistence data from the US Environmental Protection Agency registration information that was submitted by Bayer. It is interesting that the authorities know that imidacloprid can persist for over a year is that it is highly mobile in soil but did not give it a Restricted Use Classification. Sounds like economic reasons are more important than decisions based on science. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Imidacloprid/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, Aaron wrote: Can anyone point me to a definitive publication outlining the definitions of what numbers of hives differentiate a hobbiest from a sideliner from a commercial beekeeper? Many publications and books give the authors opinion of the *number* of hives when each classification changes. I refer to *commercial* beekeepers in my posts at times. Below is my classification of beekeepers as used in my posts. Hobby beekeeper: Keeps bees for hobby with little thought of profit. Sideline beekeeper: Works at beekeeping activities evenings and most weekends during the beekeeping season. Has a full time job away from beekeeping. Trying to make a profit and run as a business. Many of these are considered *not hobby* by the IRS. Commercial beekeeper: These guys do beekeeping related activities every day during the beekeeping season. All I refer to own enough equipment to qualify by the standard Aaron posted. The largest had 24 employees years ago. The smallest are one person operators. Most hire part-time workers in season and do large moves working with other beekeepers. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. The world of migratory and commercial beekeeping in the U.S. is a mystery to most people. Dave Green put the number of *commercial* beekeepers in the U.S. at around 1400. Because of the *low profile* most commercial beekeepers keep and with the lack of regulation we really don't know the number. I would guess Dave's guess to be as good as the next but possibly high for the industry today. The figure of 1400-1500 has been around since before mites. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 19:00:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Still in business? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read in the May edition of the ABJ that the Bee lab in Az was not yet closed. Is this still the case??? TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:04:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > This came over the transom. It is a MUST READ: > --- > Thought you might be interested in this nice summary of imidacloprid. You > can view it at www.pesticide.org/imidacloprid.pdf Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the conclusions of an organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the environment. Too much agenda. I am especially wary when even the inert ingredients are labeled carcinogens. Just about anything in excess or used improperly causes problems. Including, the killer, dihydrogen oxide, for which an excellent case can be made to ban it since it is the second leading cause of death for young children in the US. It causes bee deaths in the millions every year. There is also an article in the latest Bee Culture by Mark Winston on the same subject and has more balance. Especially pointing the finger back at us for using organo-phosphates, which environmentally are a much more dangerous class of pesticides than imidacloprid. I am not a defender of imidacloprid, but we need better science. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:03:17 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Swarms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rodney Farrar wrote: > > My question is >after putting bees into a new hive body some bees staying at he front >entrance facing away from the hive and fanning, any idea why? After a swarm accepts a new home, they still need to signal to all the scouts, that are away from the cluster, where they have moved to. It is my practise to always put the swarm collection box close to where the swarm came from (immediately beneath on the ground if collected from a height). The bees fanning at the entrance are sending the queen pheromones into the atmosphere to signal to stragglers and returning scouts where to come. Having the box touching the trunk of the tree the swarm was in seems to accelerate the process as bees run down towards the signal. They will signal for several hours before the swarm is assumed to be all present, and will start orientation flights before foraging. I recommend that if the hive is to be moved that this be done at night after all the bees have settled. If there has been substantial orientation then it is wise to move the hive more than 2 miles. However if the swarm has been captured late afternoon and moved within the same yard that night, orientation will commence in the morning without substantial confusion. If swarms are captured at dusk, there will be insufficient time for the signals to be accepted by the stragglers and you finish up with a forlorn bunch waiting for a signal that never comes. Unless the bunch can be physically moved to the front of the new hive and shaken on the ground so they run in, they will never find the new hive as there will be no fanning the following morning. A clean capture is not always compatible with a beekeeper's schedule but knowledge of the instinctive behaviour assists in predicting and avoiding problems. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ChuckMcC Subject: Re: Still in business? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is still open. They have been given a reprieve while discussions are had with "stakeholders". It has been postponed until at least late this year. Hopefully there will be an effort made to support it and keep it open. It is supposed to merge with the lab in Weslaco, TX. The April issue of Bee Culture has an article on the Weslaco lab. First it is not an independent lab, but part of the "Beneficial Insects" group. Also despite intense recruiting efforts, there are still two professional vacancies in the bee group at Weslaco. Since all the Tucson scientists say they will not move to Weslaco, this means there be six vacancies (including the four positions transferring from Tucson. Sounds like a sad stat of affairs! ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Morris To: Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:00 PM Subject: Still in business? > I read in the May edition of the ABJ that the Bee lab in Az was not yet > closed. Is this still the case??? > > TIM MORRIS > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 20:17:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Hancock Subject: Beekeeping Ethics? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the issue of acceptable beekeeping practices deserves further = discussion or at the very least some private consideration. Here in Canada it used to be the practice in many parts of the country = to purchase package bees from California each spring and kill them with = cyanide each fall. This was much more economical than trying to = overwinter colonies. The closure of the Canadian border to the = importation of honeybees meant an end to this practice and this caused = great financial and personal hardship on both sides of the border. = However, one benefit was that the honey industry no longer had to defend = itself against stories in the press suggesting it was somehow wrong to = kill the hives in the fall. =20 I spent three years in the late seventies working for a two thousand = hive outfit in northern Alberta that operated using this system. It was = always exciting and invigorating each spring, leaving winter behind and = heading down to California to get the first load of packages. I know = many beekeepers who loved the adventure of heading down for a load and = those years have left a lot of good stories about good times.=20 The bees were killed off in September when the nights became cool enough = to cause them to form a loose cluster. It was best if there were no bees = touching the bottom board so that the cyanide powder could be pumped = into the middle of the board. For two years I was the designated = cyanide man of our outfit, going out at the crack of dawn to gas five = yards, then meeting the crew back at the first yard to help dump out the = dead bees and sort the frames for use the following spring. Those that = haven't done so might think gassing a yard of thirty hives on a crisp = fall morning would be a silent affair, but there is a noise made by the = bees letting go and trickling down between the frames. =20 I know many beekeepers who look forward to the day when we can go back = to these old ways. Cyanide is no longer available but there are other = products that will take its place. Since this practice can reflect on = our industry as a whole I feel it would be prudent to discuss its = appropriateness. People I have discussed it with have one of three = opinions: there is nothing wrong with the practice and we should return = to it as soon as possible, there is nothing wrong with the practice but = we should not return to it because of the bad press that would result, = and finally that the practice is somehow wrong and should not be = allowed. If you hold this final opinion it opens up a whole Pandora's = super of what IS acceptable practice in beekeeping. =20 I must admit I don't spend much time thinking about the number of hives = I've gassed, but at the same time I am glad I no longer have to do so. = What surprises me is that every now and then on this discussion page, = someone will say something that seems to assume that bees have no = nervous system at all. I am still struck by the image left when someone = said that their favorite hive photo was one that had lots of bees = squashed between the supers because it showed what a populous hive it = was. I do not stand in judgment of this being right or wrong. I realize = that I cringe at the thought of this only because I am attributing human = sensations to bees. What suprises me is that some people can work with = bees and note all the human emotions ( anger, contentment, excitement, = etc.) and intelligence a hive appears to exhibit and yet are not = anthropomorphic about the bees themselves. =20 Commercial beekeepers by definition operate in a rural environment where = people tend to mind their own business and do what they can to see their = neighbours get ahead in life. Perhaps this does not allow individual = operating practises to be a topic of discussion. However, as the number = of people actually involved in food production dwindles, the general = public's attitude towards the treatment of livestock in food production = is changing. I feel we should be thinking about this and consider how = it might affect the beekeeping industry in the future. Ted =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:23:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Still in business? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, still there. Final decision to be announced later ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 15:15:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Bill and All: >Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the conclusions of an >organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the environment. >Too much agenda. I agree that the agenda is very obvious in the summary. However, a few facts on toxicity to aquatic invertebrates (mysids in particular) at extremely low ppb were useful (and referenced). >There is also an article in the latest Bee Culture by Mark Winston on >the same subject and has more balance. Especially pointing the finger >back at us for using organo-phosphates, which environmentally are a much >more dangerous class of pesticides than imidacloprid. I wonder why you say that organo-phospates are more environmentally dangerous than imidacloprid. At first I might have automatically agreed, since I have always considered these the worst of the pesticides. But now I would ask you to consider the following facts and see whether you still think that: 1. In terms of toxicity there is almost nothing that can match the lethality of imidacloprid. Here are the LD 50 levels for bees for various insecticides from my copy of Hive and Honeybee and the LD 50 (lethal dose for 50 % of victims) for imidacloprid for bees agreed to by Bayer (3.7 to 40 nanograms per bee depending on which report you take). For comparison everything will be in micrograms (.000,001 g) sevin 1.34 aldicarb .285 DDT 5.14 lindane .562 IMIDACLOPRID .004 I won't bother going through the list. It will be sufficient to say that of about 60 insecticides listed there is only one with a lower LD 50 than imidacloprid, and that is "tepp" which is .001 However the book notes that tepp has such a short residual activity that it only kills bees contacted at treatment time or shortly thereafter. 2. In terms of long term poisoning of the environment imidacloprid has to be in a category right up there past all the competition! A half life of over a year is almost unheard of with past chemicals (excerpt for non intentional pollutants like PCB's). The study that Bayer commissioned on PEI, done by Phillips Agritech showed a half life here of 366 to 457 days and soil levels TWO years after application on potato ground were still 30 to 35 ppb. The organo phosphates still in use today break down quickly. (I realize that DDT didn't). 3. In terms of breakdown products, imidacloprid is also not a benign chemical. The hydroxy metabolite is about as toxic as the parent compound, and the olefine metabolite is MORE toxic. In the French studies the olefine metabolite was toxic to bees at .00075 micrograms. I know nothing about the metabolites of organophosphate insecticides, so have no way to compare this. I am not saying that you are wrong, Bill. I am ignorant about what effects these other insecticides have. I have only studied up on imidacloprid out of necessity. But I wonder for what reason they would be considered worse than this? It seemed that they killed and then broke down. At least insects appeared to come back to the fields afterwards. This stuff is like the Eveready rabbit: it keeps killing and killing and killing.... Regards, Stan thinking: no hate mail from bunny lovers please ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 13:30:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Swarms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Rodney, they are putting into the air a scent which sends the message, "This is the place." This is to help their sisters find the entrance. It usually tells you the queen is in the hive. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 07:57:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Miller Subject: A quick, clean, and easy way to kill aggressive bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello, I have not posted anything to this list before, but I thought my recent experience using a new method for destroying aggressive bees, while leaving the hive, comb and honey intact, might be useful information for some members. Background: When I was a freshman at UC Davis I used to visit and help out in their apiary. This was back ~1973 and they were trying to propagate honeybees with brick eye color and other genetic traits. It was basic science; useful and very fun (especially for a freshman). I remember sticking the head of the virgin queen in a length of tygon tubing hooked up to a tank of CO2. We would dribble the gas to her and this knocked her out, while we artificially inseminated her with semen collected from drones with the desired eyecolor. Well, I recently moved some hives onto new property and noticed that one hive in particular was REALLY aggressive. These bees were all over us and followed us for about a mile. The hive in question was composed of a brood chamber and about 6 medium chambers with a queen excluder about 3 chambers up. I had recently completed an extraction, but still, I didn't want to try to find the queen among all of the other very aggresive bees. Also, as you know, even if you kill the queen and successfully introduce a replacement (not always easy), you still have: 1) aggressive workers around for a long time; 2) drones carrying the wrong genetic material (these may mate with virgin queen from the apiary to propagate your problem); and, 3) brood in development carrying the aggressive traits. I remembered the CO2 working to knock out the queen, so I brought about 50 pds of dry ice in a cooler to the hive, took off the cover and placed a queen excluder of the top of the hive. I then placed an empty medium super on top of this excluder and filled it with the dry ice. Placed the cover back on the hive and duct-taped the entrance. The CO2 from the sublimation of the dry ice is heavier than the air in the hive, and rapidly saturates the entire chamber. Therefore, in fifteen minutes I was able to take the top off and look in to find all visible bees dead. I took the hive apart, shook out the majority of the dead bees, and placed it back together. The next day a local swarm was brought to me attention; I introduced the swarm to the hive, and within days the bees had removed the remaining bees and they are well on their way to establishing a robust, and friendly, hive. Best wishes to all on an exciting and productive season. Jeff Miller Jeffrey E. Miller, Ph.D. 2915 Avenida Valera Carlsbad, California 92009 (760) 431-6705 - office phone (760) 431-6909 - Fax (877) 431-6705 - Toll free jemiller@invivoscribe.com http://www.invivoscribe.com "All who have mediated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of its youth." - Aristotle - ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 11:52:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial Numbers: I don't think the numbers will help. I tree-hang 250 catch boxes (nucs with five full size Langstroth frames) in a single contiguous trap line. Of course, they should be hung in Eucalyptus grandis forests! Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 19:21:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Sandler wrote: > I wonder why you say that organo-phospates are more environmentally > dangerous than imidacloprid. At first I might have automatically agreed, > since I have always considered these the worst of the pesticides. But now I > would ask you to consider the following facts and see whether you still > think that: I do not like organo phosphates because of their effect on people, insects and animals, just about every living thing. They are too broad spectrum while imidacloprid is mainly harmful to insects. I have never said that imidacloprid is not a dangerous chemical for bees. But it is not as dangerous for the rest of the environment, including us, as OPs. Which is why they are slowly being removed from use. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:53:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: Still in business? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/6/01 3:24:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, chuckmcc1@HOME.COM writes: << it is supposed to merge with the lab in Weslaco, TX. The April issue of Bee Culture has an article on the Weslaco lab. First it is not an independent lab, but part of the "Beneficial Insects" group. Also despite intense recruiting efforts, there are still two professional vacancies in the bee group at Weslaco. Since all the Tucson scientists say they will not move to Weslaco, this means there be six vacancies (including the four positions transferring from Tucson. Sounds like a sad stat of affairs! >> Thanks for the update here. Is there some sort of political thing here? Why is the Texas lab having trouble filling its two slots? Besides the obvious, they really like Tuscon-is there any other reason why the scientists from Az do not wish to move to Texas? Some of these questions may be too personal/private and I'll understand if they don't get answered. I think it would be great to work in the bee labs-anywhere. Wonder if they need a chemist. Thanks TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 21:48:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Beekeeping Ethics? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here in Canada it used to be the practice in many parts of the country > to purchase package bees from California each spring and kill them with > cyanide each fall. This was much more economical than trying to > overwinter colonies The economics of packages vs. wintering are difficult to define and open to question, since there are so many variables. Many Canadian beekeepers find wintering to have much better economics than packages did for them, others cannot make wintering work for them at all. One thing is for sure, wintering bees requires much better management, planning, and beekeeping than package operation. > I am still struck by the image left when someone said that their favorite > hive photo was one that had lots of bees squashed between the supers > because it showed what a populous hive it was. I suspect the above statement refers to my mention of admiration for an inside cover photo in an old version of Walter T Kelley's "How to Keep Bees and Sell Honey". I suppose this is a good example of how people can be misunderstood no matter how carefully they write and re-write. I like that photo because it shows a reality of beekeeping unself-consciously, honestly and with a candour that is becoming rare in these days of political correctness and hypocrisy generated by a protected and coddled population that has little idea of the realities of how freedom is won and maintained, how food is produced, and of the individual animals, habitat destroyed and populations displaced by the relentless onward march of their sterile paved and sprayed subdivision environment. The book itself is IHO a classic bee book that stands head and shoulders above others of its time for its straight ahead, unaffected writing, common sense instructions and absence of the romantic BS that was standard in bee literature of the time. Please understand: I do not like the photo because I think hurting bees is a good thing to do. I like it because 1) I like unpretentiousness and honesty and 2) because I think I understand the old guy (without meeting him), 3) because I like and respect bees, and 4) because I understand the compromises that take place in the world daily. I understand that there is inescapable, inexplicable, impersonal cruelty in daily life. Both bees and men at times do things -- with and without purpose -- that are not 'nice' both to members of their own species and to each other. I also like that photo because it is in black and white, and obviously shot on the spur of a moment. To anyone who has ever worked bees, it is obvious that the old guy in the photo in question had so many bees in the hive that, given the height, the weights and his size, he simply could not properly super the hive without squashing some bees. He apparently got the supers on and posed proudly with his immense hive of bees, but the story is abundantly clear to any observant reader. That is why it is a great photo. > What suprises me is that some people can work with > bees and note all the human emotions ( anger, contentment, excitement, > etc.) and intelligence a hive appears to exhibit and yet are not > anthropomorphic about the bees themselves. IMO, anthropomorphism adds very little constructive content to the discussion of how best to co-exist with bees. Anthropomorphism only muddies the water. Bees are not people and conferring humanity on them would not change the way we treat them. It might even make us treat them worse since some of us would feel obliged to hate some of them (at least) for their religion (or lack thereof) or colour. A good beekeeper tries to do things that are good for his or her bees. Only by taking good care of them can the beekeeper profit. As for disposing of bees when the season ends, an argument can be made that it is cruel to keep bees over a Canadian winter and that euthanizing them is the kindest thing to do. In case I am again misunderstood, I am not claiming that or anything else, but merely pointing out that it is not an unreasonable argument. If kept into winter, as many as 100% of wintering hives may die -- after their members experience horrible conditions as hives dwindle due to conditions beyond the beekeeper's control. Can such (hypothetical?) suffering possibly be justified? Which of the unattractive fates is better, and which is worse? Should we then not keep bees in Canada at all? Maybe not, maybe so. After all, it can be argued that providing bees that would not have otherwise existed an opportunity to live even a short while makes the artificial establishment of hives that are destined for elimination justifiable. (This argument is not as attractive, however when anthropomorphised and applied personally). Such debate is the stuff that keeps philosophers and theologians occupied, but is normally a little outside our sphere on BEE-L. It is not that we are unaware of the eternal and unanswerable questions that attend every human activity -- I believe that beekeepers are more sensitive and informed on these questions than many -- but rather that we exist as an online community by sticking to the things that there is a chance we can agree on, and leaving the abstract questions to other fora. > Commercial beekeepers by definition operate in a rural environment where > people tend to mind their own business and do what they can to see their > neighbours get ahead in life. Perhaps this does not allow individual > operating practises to be a topic of discussion. However, as the number > of people actually involved in food production dwindles, the general > public's attitude towards the treatment of livestock in food production > is changing. I feel we should be thinking about this and consider how > it might affect the beekeeping industry in the future. That's true. Being right or wrong has often not been the deciding factor, though, in surviving. I suppose that we could discuss how to 'manage' the information and manipulate the mindless masses by adding a spin to what we are and do, but I think (hope) most of us are too busy taking care of our bees. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:00:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sandy Kear Subject: Re: hobby/sideline/commercial In-Reply-To: <88A532A156EAD411A6EC00D0B7471BC3E4E1FD@email.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:19 PM 5/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >Would that it were that simple. I did not give all the details behind my >question. >The latest chapter in the saga of my neighbor who poisoned my bees is >tonight when >I am to appear at a Zoning Board of Appeals hearing. My village does not >have a >local law banning beekeeping, and in fact, during the 8 years I sat on the >Board of >Trustees, the village passed a "Right to Farm Law" that explicitly includes >apiculture as an encouraged activity! I am not a lawyer, but here are my observations: If that "Right to Farm" law covers the entire village, then what ~specific~ beekeeping-related activity in which you are engaging, or have engaged in, falls outside of the definition of "Agriculture" according to the Zoning Board? If they have not specified something more general than "beekeeping", then they need to provide that information to you so that you have the opportunity to come into compliance with local zoning laws. Since beekeeping is, indeed, an agricultural activity, then I should think that whether or not yours is a hobby or profession is completely irrelevant to the issue. If they have specified a particular activity as "commercial", such as having a honey sales shop on your premises, then that is a separate issue from the beekeeping activities, and should not impact your keeping of hives on your property. (All IMHO, of course!) Good luck! Sandy (Who notices that the NYS Ag & Markets web site is a lot less user-friendly than it used to be - couldn't find a thing on it re: honey production) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 14:49:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Basswood Timetable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Afternoon, I have a couple of questions I hope someone can help me with: *I live in central lower Michigan in a rural area. Thankfully no city ordinances to deal with! At the request of a neighbor, I placed 3 hives, beginning with packages, adjacent to his garden. Recently I was told there are 4 large Basswood trees in the area. Can anyone tell me when Basswood bloom begins in this area. *I have two strong hives that came though the winter very well. I began feeding in January more as prophylaxis than necessity, I am beginning to think. One is Buckfast that was started from a package last year and produced 4 mediums in addition to drawing all of the comb in the hive and the supers. Last weekend was the first time I was able to examine the hive without the fear of chilling brood. There were a solid 3 frames plus larva and egg at that time. I have been contemplating splitting that hive to decrease the inclination to swarm. I have never done a split. My biggest concern is doing something wrong. Can anyone give me "Idiot Proof" instructions on this as in "Hive Splits For Dummies"? Thanks, Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 13:41:03 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: Balance and Propaganda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:04:08 -0400 >From: Bill Truesdell >Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid > >Allen Dick wrote: >> >> This came over the transom. It is a MUST READ: >> --- >> Thought you might be interested in this nice summary of imidacloprid. You >> can view it at www.pesticide.org/imidacloprid.pdf > >Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the conclusions of an >organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the environment. >Too much agenda. This is crazy. Should we also suspect the motives of organizations like the Kidney Association, the Multiple Sclerosis Association, the Heart Association? After all, their objectives are the elimination (cure/prevention) of human disease. The objectives of organizations trying to protect (cure/prevent) planetary 'disease' (pollution) should be susapect because they have an 'agenda'? Corporations fund 'non-profit research institutes' (like the US-based Hudson Institute) which provide 'third party experts' to advocate on their behalf. The American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) for example is a commonly-used front group that produces PR ammunition for the food processing and chemical industries. NCAP, the group that published the summary on imidacloprid, is well-established and highly credible. Much of their work involves projects with conventional farmers. A bit too mainstream for me, actually. There are other groups around, including the group I work with, that see much more urgency to the problem of pesticides permeating every corner of the Earth. People involved in the environmental movement at the grass-roots level (like NCAP) operate on very little money, and many individuals I know, including me, are usually broke and live below the poverty level. We are not paid to adopt an 'agenda', and we have no hope or expectations of some financial pay off somewhwere down the line. Our research is generally thorough and well-referenced because we know every last word will be scrutinized by the Earth Destroyers in hopes of finding some trivial error that can be used to discredit us. >I am especially wary when even the inert ingredients >are labeled carcinogens. Just about anything in excess or used >improperly causes problems. This is the old "pesticides if used properly are safe" line that you get from the chemical industry, government and pesticide sympathizers. Along with that goes the line that there are just a few 'bad farmers' out there and if we can just rein them in, educate them, then everything will be okay. Pesticides used according to label directions DO cause harm. There is overwhelming documented evidence - shouldn't have to be a need to even say this anymore. >There is also an article in the latest Bee Culture by Mark Winston on >the same subject and has more balance. Balance? The balance is completely and utterly skewed toward the Earth Destroyers. With billions of dollars spent every year on propagnda (advertising, infommercials, scientists-for-rent) by corportaions, and with their control of the corporate media, where is the balance? When these polluters and exploiters of humanity and the Earth are confronted with citizens armed with evidence of injustice, they call for 'balance'. Corporations and government launch their PR campaigns to depict these ordinary citizens as emotional, alarmist and unscientific. People know when wrong things are happening. We don't need to wait for the very last scientific test to be completeted. The name of the game for corporations is to create confusion, to cast doubt on the science or observations of anyone questioning corporate products/practices. They have been very successful because you, Bill, unless you have some financial stake in the pesticide industry, have become one their many unpaid, volunteer spokespersons - even though you say you are not a defender of imidacloprid, your posts are pro-pesticide industry and you work with them to create doubt and confusion. I prefer to err on the side of human health, a clean safe environment, biological diversity, and social and environmenal justice for all living things. The Precautionary Principle, widely promoted these days by scientists and even some elected representatives, says that we do not need to have conclusive scientific evidence to raise the alarm and to have suspected harmful practices/products stopped until they can be proven safe. We need only have reasonable scientific evidence. > Especially pointing the finger >>back at us for using organo-phosphates, which environmentally are a much >>more dangerous class of pesticides than imidacloprid. It gets tricky when you start comparing the relative risks of pesticides. Imidacloprid is new and we usually only find out how bad a pesticide really is after it's been on the market for a time. Canadian government scientists are studying imidacloprid in the field now - we simply do not how bad it will prove to be. And why should we, or any other living thing, have to be the guinea pigs? I am releuctant to say a nerve toxin, or a carcinogen is worse than a groundwater polluter or fish killer or a hormone-disruptor for example. All pesticides have their own little horror stories. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:32:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pech Subject: Kinda Weird..... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Ya'll.....Yesterday I inspected my frames for the 1st time and I have a question. On one of the frames the bees have built a comb that hangs over the comb built on the foundation. The bees can crawl in between and work, but I can't do a visual inspection. Only four out of ten frames are being used but it looked like workers where walking all over checking things out. I never saw the queen but I did see some developing bees in the comb so she must be healthy. Should I let the "wild Comb" go or try and take it off? Why would the bees do this?. These are the same ones who built over the top of the frame and connected to the inside cover. Maybe I have a hive of comb artist.....Thanks for your advice. Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Balance and Propaganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the > conclusions of an > >organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the > environment. > >Too much agenda. > > > This is crazy. Should we also suspect the motives of > organizations like > the Kidney Association, the Multiple Sclerosis Association, the Heart > Association? After all, their objectives are the elimination > (cure/prevention) of human disease. The objectives of > organizations trying > to protect (cure/prevent) planetary 'disease' (pollution) should be > susapect because they have an 'agenda'? > The short answer is "YES". As I read the rest of the post I see lots of examples where the choice of words to describe the problem are designed to provoke a mental image of those on one side as "evil" and those on the other side as "good". This is a common style of writting and not uncommon on either side of most issues. The crusades were fought by "good moral people" against "bad immoral people" for what seemed at the time a "no brainer". Everyone on the "good" side was sure of their methods and motives. Today the people who think of themselves as "good moral people" look back at the issues and come to different conclusions. I think the truth is far more complex than most people would care to deal with. Using chemicals has a cost. Not using chemicals has a cost. In the example above we have the Heart Association telling us to eat margarine and give up butter. Today we have questions about what margarine does to our health. Even when the motives are noble, the result can still be a crusade. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:53:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Basswood Timetable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Coleene E. Davidson wrote: > Can anyone tell me when Basswood > bloom begins in this area. This is not a question that can be answered. Although Coleene DID give her location, she did not tell us which species of Basswood is on her neighbor's lot. George Ayers has written many articles in ABJ on the subject, the themes of which point out what a wonderful species is Tillia (Basswood) as it's periods of bloom (when different species are interplanted) can be extended virtually from June through September! So the best advice I can give is watch your trees, identify them if possible, be ready with supers when the buds first appear, and write back and tell us when basswood blooms in your area! A funny (to me) irony in my village of persecuted beekeepers is that about 30 years ago I organized a group of friends to hold annual observances of Arbor Day. We have planted over 500 trees, many of which were (by design) Little Leaf Linden (European Basswood) (Tillia cordata), one of the heaviest nectar producing basswoods. When they bloom in mid-June in upstate New York, these young mature trees literally hum with bees! I wonder if the ZBA will want me to chop them down? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:53:16 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Basswood Timetable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene, I have lots of Basswood in my area of northern New York and Vermont. Our Basswoods usually bloom the first two weeks of July. Last season, a great Basswood flow, was about two weeks late. Coleene E. Davidson wrote: > Can anyone tell me when Basswood > bloom begins in this area. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 11:02:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Balance and Propaganda In-Reply-To: <200105071329.f47DT8J13072@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Sharon Labchuk wrote: > Balance? The balance is completely and utterly skewed toward the Earth Destroyers. With billions of dollars spent every year on propagnda (advertising, infommercials, scientists-for-rent) by corportaions, and with their control of the corporate media, where is the balance? I have to disagree with your point about the media. Unfortunately, much of the media relies on sensationalism to boost its ratings, so any time an environmental group (mainstream or otherwise) cries wolf about some perceived eco-scare, the media tend to give it wide play. (Witness coverage of Alar, milkweed monarchs, and arsenic in water.) But when things settle down and the truth simmers out, what was a front-page headline becomes a page-47 retraction. I guess this makes me another "Earth Destroyer", but I'd also like to point out that many executives of the big environmental organizations are earning six-figure incomes and living in very nice digs, not in cabins with solar power and organic gardens as you might expect. Now excuse me while I finish pouring my waste oil in the river. :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/