From MAILER-DAEMON@luna.metalab.unc.edu Sun May 20 09:13:48 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by luna.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4KDDls18817 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:47 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4KDDiJ12742 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105201313.f4KDDiJ12742@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 09:13:40 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0105B" To: adamf@METALAB.UNC.EDU Content-Length: 210154 Lines: 4403 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:41:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have a BEE SPACE problem. The frames were spaced too far apart BY YOU. "Bee Space" was discovered or defined FIRST by Dr. Langstroth in 1851; and he found that bees will build comb in any space greater than 3/8" or less than 1/4". Hence, we beekeepers think of it as 5/16", or the middle between 1/4" and 3/8". Bees will not build in their "bee space" using it as there "roadways" to get to and from inside the hive. Did you start your colony on 10 frames of foundation, or only 9? Have you mixed frames of foundation with frames of drawn comb? Are you using a factory made inner cover or improperly designed homemade? Are you feeding sugar syrup to this new colony? Here is how things SHOULD BE STARTED: 1) ALWAYS put bees on 10 frames of foundation in one hive body, never 9. 2) Never mix frames of foundation with drawn comb frames or empty frames. 3) Properly designed inner covers have a "set-back" surface so the space between the tops of frames and the inner cover does not violate "bee space", i. e., leaves a space not less than 1/4" or larger than 3/8". 4) Bees tend to do strange things in comb building if there is a sporadic nectar flow or a dearth; or if it is too chilly and not enough bees to warm a larger area. Hence, a beekeeper should feed 1:1 sugar syrup CONTINUOUSLY from the day the hive was started until the colony has at least 20 frames drawn, and this may require continuous feeding until September depending on the nectar situation in your area. Like an insurance policy, for over 60 years, I have always fed a new colony that is on foundation from its start in April until September, and I have never failed to have one of these colonies get through the winter with great strength for next year. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper Starting my 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:17:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Balance and Propaganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Labchuk wrote: A lot We have been through these kind of heated discussions often on the Bee List. I was a participant in some and, in others, had more sense and let others flame away. They go nowhere, especially when accompanied with the hyperbole of language I just witnessed. I will only repeat. I do not like to use any pesticides, but I use them when I need to, such as Apistan on my bees. And I like good science and informed discussions. Bill Truesdell, Planet Destroyer. Bath, Maine- where it is too nice to be inside and reading by a flaming computer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 19:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Basswood Timetable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4 large Basswood trees in the area. Can anyone tell me when Basswood >bloom begins in this area. Colleene, It depends on what variety of basswood you have. Since you are im Michigan, I would recommend that you contact George S Ayes, Dept. of Entomology, University of MI. He has done extensive research on Basswood ( Tilla ) and should be able to help in your area. >I have never done a split. My biggest >concern is doing something wrong. Can anyone give me "Idiot Proof" >instructions on this as in "Hive Splits For Dummies"? For a beginner here is what I would suggest: The dandeloins should be blooming in your area now, which is a good time to split. I assume that you have 2 deeps for brood chambers. Order a new queen. Equallize the two hive bodies by putting the same amount of brood (capped and uncapped) and the same amount of honey and pollen in both chambers ( brood in the center please). Insert a queen excluder between the boxes. 3 days later set the box without eggs on a new bottom board and reduce the entrance. A few hours later install the queen in her cage to the new colony. You may need to feed the split if it has less than 3 frames of honey. 3 - 4 days later check to see that the queen has been released, if not remove the cork from opposite the candy end and set the cage back in so she can walk out. Check a week later for eggs. Voila- a new hive. Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:07:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bonbee@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, If you continually feed your new colony from April to September, what do you do with all your swarms? Bonnie Pierson NE Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:08:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > If you continually feed your new colony from April to > September, what do you > do with all your swarms? > A new colony, started on foundation is not going to swarm under the conditions described. In a lot of areas the available nectar is not going to give the bees enough reason to draw out 20 frames of comb. For example here in Florida we are undergoing sever drought conditions. The bees are getting enough nectar at present but they are not drawing comb. The splits I did in February have not drawn out the foundation I gave them back then. Now I am going to need to feed them in order to get the comb drawn. Here I have at least a minor flow almost year round and not much of a wintering problem. In other areas, undergoing a unusual lack of nectar, the bees could need feeding up until September in order to have stores for winter. These are some of the conditions alluded to in Georges post. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 09:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "KAMRAN F FAKHIMZADEH (MMSEL)" Organization: University of Helsinki Subject: I wish to serve you all MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello All I will soon obtain my PhD degree from the University of Helsinki. This is the first PhD degree in Apiculture ever exists in Finland. My PhD thesis is entitled "Detection of major mite pests of Apis mellifera and development of non-chemical control of varroasis". I have developed the powdery sugar dusting as a physical control of Varroa mite. I wish to find a good job in some bee laboratory or post-doctoral training about the detection or control of the mites somewhere in this world. Part of my PhD work was to develop quick field diagnostic method for Varroa mite. It was published in ABJ Sept.2000 and also in http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/detection_varroa.htm With the help of this device I found the mite for the first time in the Caribbean Island Nevis (ABJ Nov.2000-857-858). I will be ready to cooperate with any short project about Varroa mite detection before starting my permanent job or training that I am searching in these days. I will appreciate any useful guidance or comments in achieving these goals that ultimately serve us all Kamran ----------- Dr. Kamran Fakhimzadeh Department of Applied Biology P. O. Box 27 00014- Universtity of Helsinki Tel. +358 40 55 36 791 (Mobile) Tel. +358 9 191 58393 Fax. +358 9 191 58463 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:22:05 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pech Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... In-Reply-To: <24.1316837e.28287072@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thank You for the info George..... 1) YES I did start with 10 frames. The hive is a kit I bought from The Kelly Co. in Kentucky. It is assymbled correctly,to the best of my knowlage. I have fed the bees since installing them. As far as I can tell by your post I have followed the propper proceedure for establishing a hive. My question is what do I do about it? So far I've been told to cut the "weird comb" out, or to move it to the end of the box facing the outter edge. I think removing the comb is the correct thing to do, but is there anything I should be aware of while attempting this proceedure, or am I way off and just need to move it. Obviously I am new to all this and if I can gain by your years of experience I would feel very lucky indeed. Thank You, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:00:56 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Cloake queen breeding system (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all My queen rearing program has been held up a little due to unseasonal weather, but I had to do the first stage sort out today. A friend of mine is putting a one year old breeder queen in the post, so I needed a queenless nuc to take it on it's arrival. I will be using a method of introduction that I have not tried before... The Steve Taber/Albert Knight/John Dews method that you can read about on http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/queenintro.html This is a lengthy document and the required info is near the bottom of the 'page'. There are no recorded instances of this introduction method failing. I opened up and found that the bees were actually covering 19 frames so I pinched two that had mainly sealed brood with a few open larvae, I placed these in a 5 frame nuc box and put in a frame feeder of syrup and a couple of drawn combs. It should be OK until tomorrow when the post arrives. But back to the main reason for this text... I shifted the hive onto a spare stand alongside the original, I put a fresh floor on the original stand with it's closed entrance facing the oposite direction (a hinged flap closed by a wingnut in my case). A clean brood box on the floor and a frame feeder of syrup at the extreme right and extreme left of the box (the original text calls for a top feeder but I had the frame feeders to hand). then a sort through the frames placing mainly sealed brood in the bottom box. when this box was full I put on the Cloake board, with it's entrance facing the same way as tho original one did, and then placed another box on that . I placed the grafting frame in the middle of this box and filled it up with frames. Finally a roof ( no coverboard or inner cover in my case, as my roofs are solid, insulated, non ventillated ones). Normally I would ensure that the queen was in the bottom box but as the hive had been originally assembled in a hurry (when the bees were smashed up in January) there was much scraping and chopping to do as much brace comb had been built, thus queen finding was less important that correcting some of the mess. I shall be going to the apiary when the breeder queen arrives and will do a bit more sorting and scraping, I will also put the queen "downstairs" at that time. There was a dummy board among the 22 frames so this was left out to form the gap for the grafting frame to be "aclimatised". The next stage will be "Grafting day" that depends how the weather is, anything from four to ten days time. Grafting day fixes the rest of the timetable. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:38:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Bear Proof Fences at http://biology.dbs.umt.edu/bees/default.htm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Over the years, we have seen lots of discussion about bears, bees, and fences. The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks has been working for several years on this problem. They have produced two videos - the first shows their original fence designs, the second is supposed to be the ultimate bear fence - will even keep grizzlies away from a deer carcass (obtained from a road kill). We have revamped our web pages and have added videos, including these two videos on how to build a bear-proof fence around a bee yard - even in dry climates (see version 2). Each video is large - about 20 MB, so if you download from a phone modem, it will take a long time. Each of the bear videos has been compressed in an ASF format - you need a media player and the MPG 4 codex (which you can get from the Microsoft download site). The compression produces some loss of video quality - but you can see what you need to see - including watching the bear get zapped (Video 1). This is a new venture for us - if the videos don't work, you probably need to update your media player software. So, try that first before e-mailing and yelling at us. If the files download, then the problem is probably your setup. We have also posted videos of a trained bee flying through a maze; leaf cutter bees on a plane that dives and climbs, alternating from near 0 gravity to 1.8s, and other videos. These are mostly in MPG format. On another part of the web page, I have posted some PowerPoint files. They work under Explorer and Netscape, but not under AOL. So, I'm going to redo them as PDF files. I have no idea how the site will work under Web TV. We now have two streaming video cams - on fast connections, you can see the bees appear to run or fly by. On a phone modem, you will get one image every 4-6 seconds - but the cameras are shooting 15 frames/second. Our new site is not finished, but we wanted to make these videos available now - it may save some colonies. If you encounter bugs, errors, or typos; please let us know. We will fix them; we want to produce a useful site that works well. Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:36:02 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Occasionally a swarm or colony of bees will build comb between foundation sheets rather than on them. particularly if the foundation is old or contaminated. Do not worry about it, just cut your extra bit off and reposition the comb so that the cut face is next to a reasonably flat drawn out one. If you leave it, you can bet the queen will hide there next time you want to catch her. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:51:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bonnie, What makes you think that feeding bees will make them swarm. The two things= =20 are not connected.. Bees will NOT (for any reason whatsoever) draw foundation into comb unless=20 they have a need for it RIGHT NOW (not next month). A cell for a queen to=20 lay in, and a place to store food are the only two reasons bees build comb.=20= =20 But bees consume 8 pounds of honey to get the energy to produce and build=20 just one pound of wax; and hence they MUST have food (sugar syrup or nectar)= =20 to build comb. They can't collect nectar all the time, because there are=20 periods of dearth all through the year depending on what state you are in. =20 For example, in central Maryland, there is NO nectar or very little in June=20 and July. Bees will swarm if they run out of storage space for nectar, and if they do,= =20 that is certainly not the fault of the bees, but rather, it is 100%=20 beekeeper's fault in failing to properly manage his bees. The same thing is= =20 true about baking a cake. If the recipe says bake at 350=B0 for 30 minute a= nd=20 you bake it at 350=B0 for 45 minutes and the cake is burned, that is not the= =20 fault of the oven, but your fault. When I start a new colony in April or May from a swarm, a package, or a spli= t=20 using only foundation, I want them to have 20 deep frames or 30 medium frame= =20 of drawn comb by Labor Day so that there is a place to store the fall=20 goldenrod crop for winter use. Hence, my new hives are CONTINUOUSLY FED=20 sugar syrup from their start in April or May to September and this makes big= =20 strong colonies ready for our major nectar flow during next year's April and= =20 May. You might consult one of my url's to see my PINK PAGES to learn more. They=20 are: www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/index.html =20 and/or www.cybertours.com/~midnitebee/ click on bee=20 articles I hope that I have helped. George Imirie=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: john acuff Subject: I read the book and still messed it up! Now what? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bee people. I have been reading this group for a week or so. Normally I would just read and learn but I have a problem someone might be willing to advise me on. I bought two packages that arrived about April 10 and got both installed but when, after a few days, I opened one of the new hives I found the queen had died in the cage. I have come to the conclusion that the queen probably died due to chill, that was due to my panic with that package at installation. I couldn't get the bees out of the cage in a timely manner and there was a cloud of them ... and I just freaked. I did the best I could but knew the queen wasn't covered but thought the bees would just go to her. I now know it was most likely to cold for them and she and many of the bees died. I combined the survivors with the first package and I think all is well. I then bought another 3 lbs and queen and they came today! Nice day, low 70's bright sunshine and a slight breeze. I read the section of my book, The Beekeepers Handbook, on package installation etc and had it down pat. I observed that the queen cage was hanging by a strip of metal, bent over to keep it from falling in. Well, one mistake I made the first time was a reluctance to jar the package on the ground sharply enough, so I gave it a good one and lifted the can and went for the metal strip and it was gone! Into the cage, hanger and all and I could barely see it. I was already stung once but I was somewhat determined to find it, but alas I hadn't the courage plus another lady bee gave up her life to sting me. I had fixed everything else in advance, ie the feeder was full of syrup, I had a fresh pollen substitute in place and an empty hive body at hand to place over the feeder and patty. Finally, and with apologies for such a ramble, should I go in ASAP or should I let them settle down for three or four days. They were very angry at me even after a couple of hours. A pair was buzzing around my head some fifty feet from the hive. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:48:33 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If there is brood in the comb it would be good to move it to the side to save the brood. Also, be sure you know where the queen is if you go to remove the comb immediately. > My question is what do I do about it? So far I've > been told to cut the "weird comb" out, or to move it to the end of the > box facing the outter edge. I think removing the comb is the correct > thing to do, but is there anything I should be aware of while > attempting this proceedure, or am I way off and just need to move it. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:12:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Imirie Shim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got two of them today, I need advise on the use. I have two hive (second year) that I just put the second super on (un-drawn foundation in the second super). Does the hole in one end face down? Should one be used for each super? How long do you leave them on? How many others have tried these? Thanks for any information, Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 20:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Barnett Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... In-Reply-To: <200105081423.f48EN8J00580@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Dave, and others: > From: pech > Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > > Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 07:22:05 -0700 > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... > > Thank You for the info George..... > 1) YES I did start with 10 frames. The hive is a kit I bought from > The Kelly Co. in Kentucky. It is assymbled correctly. May I add one point using some numbers: The inside width of Kelly hive bodies is very close to 14.625 inches (14 - 5/8"); the wide, upper half of the end bars (composite frame width) is 1 - 5/16 inches (1.313"). Placing the 10 frames touching together, AND against one side wall of the hive body uses 13.13 inches. leaving a total unused gap across the box of 1.375 inch, with nothing in that spoce. Thus, one has eleven 1/8" spaces (the needed number+ 1) to divide between frames and between each outside frame and the adjacent wall; and in my opinion this causes the weird comb....Which is what George Imirie said without the numbers After first drawing three of the four sheets of foundation, they then dropped a piece of whatever sized abberant next comb from the outer edge of either the frame being drawn or from the proximate edge of next frame. In any event there is not room for other than a thin sheet of the abberant combcomb between, has wasted space and wax, and you can't see the space beneath it. The solution: Push all the frames together to one side or to the other to start with, and as the foundation is drawn, move the frames over preserving the correct 'Bee Space' that is marred by the extra 1/8 inch, realizing that in practice, the equal division is likely erred, causing the weird only between certain frames 1/4 inch apart. >My question is what do I do about it? I think removing the comb is the correct > thing to do, but is there anything I should be aware of while > attempting this proceedure, If what I *think* happened is fact, I would (as a hobby beekeeper) remove this thin comb, and push the undrawn frames together (touching); when you remove the extra layer of bee-added comb I have found it tacked to the underlying foundation by small islands of burr comb, which may be modified into patches of drone comb as the coloniy reworks it. If this foundation is waxed plastic, scraping the burr off may result in rebuilding as standard worker comb. This is probably not that important, except most 'newbees' and some 'oldbees' just like to get it right! I hope this provides tangible insight into how this happened. If one builds his/her own boxes or frames, it does point to the importance of getting the measurements exactly right. I hope someone will be helped by this! Regards Bob Barnett Birmingham, AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 18:49:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello George & All, George wrote: You have a BEE SPACE problem. The frames were spaced too far apart BY YOU. Bob wrote: I start a large number of frames of foundation each year. All spaced 10 frames to the box and being fed syrup. I cull many of these frames because the bees have not drawn correctly. The space between the frames of foundation is much larger than *bee space* so many times the bees draw weird comb. I scrape hundreds of frames drawn not to my standards upon inspection the next year. George wrote: Like an insurance policy, for over 60 years, I have always fed a new colony that is on foundation from its start in April until September, and I have never failed to have one of these colonies get through the winter with great strength for next year. Bob wrote: I find this *kinda weird*. I would never put a nuc on the ground not expecting to get a honey crop till the next year. I am getting ready this month to super all the nucs I made in April. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 19:39:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Balance & propaganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are having a little debate on these lines in the UK at the moment, not on Gaucho but on GM crop field testing. Having attended meetings and a public debate as well as talking privately to people both pro and anti I am arriving at a few basic principles. 1. It is no use arguing with somebody whose mind is made up. 2. You conduct a scientific test when you already know what the answer will be and it is the answer you want. Chris (Thinking I must be getting even more cynical) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 22:53:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Balance and Propaganda In-Reply-To: <200105071327.f47DRLJ12989@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Allen Dick wrote: > >> > >> This came over the transom. It is a MUST READ: > >> --- > >> Thought you might be interested in this nice summary of imidacloprid. You > >> can view it at www.pesticide.org/imidacloprid.pdf > > > >Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the conclusions of an > >organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the environment. > >Too much agenda. > > This is crazy. Should we also suspect the motives of organizations like > the Kidney Association, the Multiple Sclerosis Association, the Heart > Association? ... The objectives of organizations trying > to protect (cure/prevent) planetary 'disease' (pollution) should be > suspect because they have an 'agenda'? Well, since I rather innocently started this, maybe I should comment. Frankly, I hadn't really read the article very critically when I recommended it. It looked okay to me. It had nice typography, some nice graphs, and a big bibliography. It seemed of great potential interest to beekeepers. It did not seem to say anything false or defamatory, and it collected some information into what was an obviously critical view and was signed by a group that has adopted a name that does not appear to conceal its agenda. I didn't think anyone would expect the article to be a puff piece for pesticides, but I did think that it could offer a treasure trove of sources for those who are interesting in looking farther into imidacloprid and its effects. Since we seldom have any shortage of cheery words from the proponents of chemical warfare against bugs or denial about the collateral damage they do, and since good representation from the other side is scarcer, I thought that this august assemblage of insect admirers would appreciate the moderating effect of a few words from the disenchanted. I initially appreciated the comments from both Bill and Sharon, since they seemed quite sensible and I read past the language to the meaning. However Sharon used a few words like 'crazy' and 'Earth Destroyer' in her otherwise well reasoned and useful reply and, it seems, after that, these are the only words of hers that readers remember. I guess there is a lesson for those of us who want to be understood. These types of words are called 'stoppers' by professional ad writers. It is well known that when certain trigger words are used, the majority of readers stop reading when they encounter one and react. Even the most careful reasoning after that point in the text is lost on many, if not most people because they shift into an emotional state. Moreover, they tend to discard anything they may have accepted before that point too. Let's go back and read the posts again and cross out the fighting words and get on with our normally sedate discussions. BEE_L is here for the civil and informed discussion of bees and bee-related topics. The BEE-L rules are that you check your guns at the door and that any violators get killfiled if they fail to heed a polite warning. (Naturally the sheriff and his deputies get to wear a gun, but there is a lot of pressure not to use it often -- and hell to pay when it is used). After the weekend, after a number of posts that seemed to drift farther and farther from the topic of bees (as does this one), I sat down and read through the original imidacloprid article I recommended more carefully. I'd still recommend it. It still seems to me that it does not make any claims, but merely seems to select material from reports that are not AFAIK particularly hotly debated. My impression is that the data came from government and pesticide industry sources. The article does not seem to me twist facts. Even most proponents of sprays readily admit that insecticides are poisons and can be dangerous when mishandled. The debate begins when we try to draw a line between safe, beneficial, and reasonable use and gratuitous, harmful use. Some say no use is safe and others at the other end of the spectrum say that the stuff is harmless. Most of us consider these positions to be extreme and try to position ourselves comfortably somewhere in the middle. Those at the end positions know this and try to move the end points of reasonableness outwards by making extreme statements so that the 'middle' moves towards their true position. That's fair enough. We're grownups and hopefully literate enough to know when we are being played and smart enough to do the critical thinking necessary to decide what we want to believe. I hope we continue to carry diverse and provocative points of view on BEE-L and that no one thinks that it is the duty of the list's maintainers to limit valid debate or discussion to Politically Correct viewpoints. I also hope that when we write, we will all be careful not to insult those who disagree with us and thus wind up in a discussion that has more to do with procedure and manners and language and hurt feelings than bees. allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:02:55 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have been following this thread for some time. I am often confused by the differences between American beekeeping practices and those that I am used to in the UK. It seems strange to me to expect to draw a full box of comb, from foundation, all in one go. I am also fairly sure that few beekeepers in the UK would invest in feeding a colony for a complete season in order to do so. Generally we start a colony as a nuc, a captured swarm, an "artificial" swarm or sometimes a "Taronov" swarm (there are practically no "package bees" in UK). Such small colonies only occupy two - five frames and are usually given a couple of drawn frames to expand onto and/or a couple of frames with foundation on the outside of them. Our British boxes take eleven frames with space for a thin dummy which means that our newly formed colony does not fill the box. We mostly install our original nuc centrally in the box and place division boards either side of the outer frames that contain the foundation. I have some division boards made from "skinned polyeurathane foam" which are light, flat and have a high insulation value. As nectar comes in variable quantities our bees develop according to the resources available to them. (a few also feed syrup during this developement, I personally do not) additional frames with foundation are given as needed until the box is full. By using the division boards the new combs are built with even, flat faces but if drone cells are drawn these may be left (the bees know best, and drones are much more important than most beekeepers give them credit for). The division boards are called "follower boards" by some. I am not suggesting that either method is "right" or "wrong" to me they are both valid in the circumstances and weather pertaining in the region. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: I read the book and still messed it up! Now what? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi John, One thing about bees is they ain't in no hurry! Slow yourself down a bit. Get yourself a wash cloth (rag) soak in the sugar syrup or a spray bottle and hose the bees down in the cage. They should become quite docile when full. Bring a sheet or towel (white) and line it to the front of the hive. Shake bees at the entrance on towel and bees will run right in (so have frames and feeder in place). Now you can see queen cage out there grab remove candy cork if there is one. Stuff queen in the hive. Close up shop and come back in seven days and remove cage and fill up feeder again. Stings, well get use to them if your going to keep bees it's in their nature to defend there home. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:44:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: > Interesting reading, but I am hesitant to accept the conclusions of an > organization dedicated to eliminating pesticides from the environment. > Too much agenda. Just to reiterate what I said in my original post. I read the whole article and it had some interesting comments, but I do question their findings, mainly because of there starting point, which they do state clearly. And I appreciate Allen's comments. I really do not like the age we are in where science is being used as a political weapon and we are getting a lot of junk science. For example, in the article the half life of imidacloprid is discusses and it varies from reasonable to over a year. The half life of a pesticide does vary depending on the application method and when/where/how and the conditions under which it is applied. So you could bias your findings to have either a long or short half-life. And where is the pesticide after it has done its thing? Is it in a place where it is still in the system to continue to cycle through its killing or is it there but benign, even at half strength because it is tied up in plant material/soil/whatever? A pesticide applied in Florida will be out of the system much quicker than one applied in Canada, especially if both were applied in the fall. But if you wanted to show it was a good pesticide, take the Florida data. If bad, take the Canadian. We have conflicting data on imidacloprid. You have the anecdotal evidence that it is bad from the French Beekeepers and reports from PEI. You have "science" from the pesticide haters saying it is bad and "science" from Bayer and others, including studies on canola in Canada, saying it is fine. I do not like it mainly because of the greenhouse studies that mirrored the French beekeepers experience and Medhat Nzar"s speculation that it may be cumulative. But the greenhouse growers have OK'ed it if applied properly. One would hope an organization with that much self interest would be circumspect in the use of pesticides, and apparently imidacloprid is fine after a month's wait. Which does not track with a year's half life. Something does not compute. Unless one looks at the conditions inside a greenhouse compared to Canada in the winter. Bottom line is the jury is still out. But, right now, the better science is on the imidacloprid side. Emotion is not. And it never will be. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:16:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andrew Dewey Subject: Best Practices starting off with nukes?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One of the things I learning most quickly about beekeeping is that there are many many different ways of doing things. I'm getting some conflicting advice locally on how to populate a hive when the bees arrive in a four frame nuke, so I thought I'd turn to the experience of this list's subscribers for advice. My bees are scheduled to arrive in a few days. My inclination is to immediately place the frames from the nuke into the brood chamber - placing them in the center of the chamber and in the same order that they were in the nuke. Does this sound right? A second question concerns the use of Wintergreen grease patties as a prophylactic for mites. (See USDA Northeast Region SARE http://rnoel.virtualave.net/2000/index.htm) As a member of MOFGA (Maine Organic Farmers & Growers Assoc.) I am very interested in using techniques that will control mites and exposure to other pests/diseases in as natural a way as I can. Has anyone tried the Wintergreen patties, and if so how well did they work? Presuming that they do work, should I start using the patties at the same time I put the bees in the hive from the nuke? Many thanks in advance - I've enjoyed 'lurking' on this list for the past few weeks. Regards, Andrew Dewey Acadia Computer Corp. Bar Harbor, ME andrew@acadiacomp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:15:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert & All, My only point is you are trying to solve a problem which happens all the time. When you look at the width of a box with 10 thin sheets of foundation hanging down you are trusting the bees to draw until they reach the space of bee space. Most of the time the bees do draw correctly. Less than 10 percent(guess) they don't. I only added my opinion to say that you can place the frames correctly, feed and STILL get incorrect comb. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 06:23:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Do bees sleep? In-Reply-To: <200105091221.f49CL6J10763@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In giving gradeschool presentations, I sometimes field some odd questions. Here's one for the group: Do bees sleep? Or do they work 'round the clock? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:32:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Balance & propaganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Chris, Chris wrote: 1. It is no use arguing with somebody whose mind is made up. You are right about arguing. Discussion with a open mind is the answer. On the Irish List Norman and I butted heads over viruses if you remember. Norman and I took the discussion off list and with several emails I realized Norman was in my opinion correct in his hypothesis. I returned to the IBL list and said I now believed Dr. Carricks hypothesis was correct. Norman had sent me research & graphs he will show at Apimunda this year. People & companies with agendas do not have a open mind to the other sides points. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:44:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Do bees sleep? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Eugene & All, In giving gradeschool presentations, I sometimes field some odd questions. Here's one for the group: Do bees sleep? Or do they work 'round the clock? In a study i read the bees don't sleep as we know sleep. The study disproved the *busy as a bee theory*. Most bees spent a average of four hours a day sitting around or wondering through the hive. All the information is from memory. Please do not ask me to find the study. Maybe other Bee-L people will remember the study and comment. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:49:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CharlesW Subject: Re: Do bees sleep? Comments: To: Eugene Makovec Individual bees "sleep" or at least are dormant in some manner for periods of time. But, the colony as a whole never sleeps. There is always activity. They have to keep working ... they have literally thousands of babies to take care of ... no time to sleep! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:18:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Imirie Shim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Put the shim on top of the first super and under the second super, entrance hole down. One for each super is too many and not necessary. I use one over the 1st super, the next one over the 3rd super, and an upper entrance slot in the inner cover over the 5th super. Imirie Shims are ONLY USED when supers are in place - NO OTHER TIME and NEVER BELOW THE QUEEN EXCLUDER. I have no idea how many people use them. Steve Forest of Brushy Mountain says he sells a tremendous number of them, what ever that means. I use 2 per colony and I had 135 colonies until I had disabling strokes. Hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:35:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Elizabeth Vogt Subject: Re: Do bees sleep? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, bees "sleep", at least their metabolism slows to a point that approximates sleep in mammels. I recall some research by Heinrichs, I believe from the 1970's, that describes this state in honey bees. Whether or not this occurs on a daily cycle, I don't remember. If I can find the citation, I'll send it along to you Eugene. Sincerely, Elizabeth Vogt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:07:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Virgin queen introduction There appears to be little on this subject in the literature. However, the general principles would presumably be something like this. First, transfer the sealed queen cell into a cage and into an incubator. Second, mark the queen after hatching (and DO NOT clip her wings!). Third, mail her (with attendants?) to your customer. Fourth, dequeen colony and (time gap?) introduce caged virgin queen in the brood area. Now, surely, the tricky part. We know that open mated queens and AI queens (after two doses of gas) acquire and emit scent, specifically, the queen phenorome. A virgin lacks the scent, so why would the workers want to decage her? If the latter is correct, surely it can be turned to opportunity by the keeper decaging the virgin after SHE has acquired the colony scent. In theory, she would then be pretty much ignored by the workers while she starts her orientation flights, and hardens out before taking mating flights. In due course, she would arrive back one day with the magical scent, and everything would go gangbusters. Somewhere along the line, she would have destroyed (on your behalf, as it were) any queen cells started by the colony. But somehow, this all sounds too easy to me; it would mean virgin queens toppling mated queens in the queen industry. If that was the case, queen breeders would have a total breeze of a life, not needing hundreds of nucs for open mating queens before they are mailed to customers. Or have I missed something? (By the way, I work with AM scutellata). Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Best Practices starting off with nukes?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Andrew wrote: I'm getting some conflicting advice locally on how to populate a hive when the bees arrive in a four frame nuke, so I thought I'd turn to the experience of this list's subscribers for advice. There are many ways to keep bees. It is for you to sort out the best method for you. My inclination is to immediately place the frames from the nuke into the brood chamber - placing them in the center of the chamber and in the same order that they were in the nuke. Does this sound right? Correct. Also reduce entrance and feed. A second question concerns the use of Wintergreen grease patties as a prophylactic for mites. (See USDA Northeast Region SARE http://rnoel.virtualave.net/2000/index.htm) As a member of MOFGA (Maine Organic Farmers & Growers Assoc.) I am very interested in using techniques that will control mites and exposure to other pests/diseases in as natural a way as I can. Has anyone tried the Wintergreen patties, and if so how well did they work? Presuming that they do work, should I start using the patties at the same time I put the bees in the hive from the nuke? In my opinion the wintergreen patties are a waste of time for varroa. They might help for tracheal mites. The methods of IPM control recommended by the USDA bee labs are: 1 drone brood removal 2 varroa tolerent queens (Russian etc.) 3 Open mesh floors In my opinion small cell size could be a help but I have never used small cell myself but information can bee obtained from beesource.com The above all work against varroa(U.S.D.A. tested). NONE will solve the varroa problem alone. All must be used together still expect some losses and reduced honey crops (in my opinion. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:37:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Antidumping duties on Argentina and China Announced MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This just in from kim@airoot.com [mailto:kim@airoot.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Catch The Buzz Article The average duty on Argentine honey will be 50%, moving the current price of $0.55 to about $0.82/lb., and the average duty on Chinese honey will be about 40%, moving the final price to about $0.72/lb. What this means is that U.S. honey will begin selling for about $0.65 for dark, and about $0.80 for light, probably by August. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Antidumping duties on Argentina and China Announced The U.S. honey industry, battling for its life against huge amounts of unfairly traded, low-priced honey from Argentina and China, applauded the announcement on May 8 of antidumping duties on imports from the two countires. As determined by the Dept. of Commerce, the preliminary antidumping duties for Argentine exporters range between 50% and 61%, and the duties for Chinese exporters range between 37% and 184%. The duties are now being imposed on all honey imports from the two named countries. Additionally, for all but five Chinese exporters, Commerce will retroactively impose antidumping duties to February because these exporters (and several U.S. importers) surged imports into the U.S. prior to Commerce's determination in order to beat the imposition of the duties. (This means that those U.S. importers with honey already here from these Chinese exporters will be required to pay this duty on honey they now have on hand.) This announcement is the next step in an unfair trade action filed with the Dept. of Commerce and International Trade Commission (ITC) on Sept 29, 2000 by the American Honey Producers Association (AHPA) and the Sioux Honey Association (SHA). According to AHPA President Richard Adee, whose organization represents about 800 domestic beekeepers, "The livelihoods of AHPA members depend on being able to sell their raw honey at a profit in our own market. The Commerce Department in essence confirmed what we claimed in our petition: that Argentine and Chinese honey is being sold here at prices far below the cost of producing the product in those countries. This is the definition of dumping, which is against U.S. trade law and the rules of world trade as set forth by the WTO. Jerry Probst, President of SHA, said "There is no way the hundreds of domestic honey producers who belong to the SHA can compete with the Chinese and Argentina governments and exporters, whose unfair trade practices enable their honey producers to dominate our market with below cost pricing. We are counting on the U.S government to right the wrong and save this important industry. We are gratified with this decision." Commerce will now begin the final phase of its antidumping duty investigation. Concurrently, the ITC will begin the final phase of it's injury investigation. Final determinations from both agencies will be issued before the end of the year. The AHPA and the SHA are represented by the Washington, D.C. law firm of Collier Shannon Scott, PLLC. Michael Coursey heads the legal and economic team on this case. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kim Flottum Editor, Bee Culture Magazine http://www.airoot.com/beeculture/index.htm For an archive Catch the Buzz postings, visit: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/index.html To unsubscribe to this emailing, simply goto: http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/buzz/unsubscribe.html * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:33:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Do bees sleep? In-Reply-To: <200105091437.f49Eb2J17132@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is a summary of a study regarding the ability or tendency of foraging bees to revert to nurse bee status in a hive emergency. It is mentioned that the reversion requires adjustment of the circadian rhythm which strongly implies a sleep type state in the foraging bees. I no longer have the Science News (last week or the week before) in which the summary appeared. You may be able to find the article on line at the Science News Web Site. On Wed, 9 May 2001, Elizabeth Vogt wrote: > Yes, bees "sleep", at least their metabolism slows to a point that > approximates sleep in mammals. I recall some research by Heinrichs, I > believe from the 1970's, that describes this state in honey bees. Whether > or not this occurs on a daily cycle, I don't remember. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:40:27 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Virgin queen introduction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry & All A few comments... > Second, mark the queen after hatching Two problems here, virgins are nervous and often dart about making the pick-up difficult and running the risk of the beekeeper damaging her. I do not recommend it as she may be considered "defective" by the mating nuc bees and be rejected by them (or they may just ignore her). > so why would the > workers want to decage her? She may not emit the full scent of a mated queen but the workers will be aware of her presence and her exact non mated status. There is some info about the reintroduction of queens after Instrumental Insemination on. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ii_reintro.html much of what is on that page would apply to introducing virgins after postal transit. There is little incentive for a queen rearer to supply virgins as the resulting queens would only have half the queen breeder's carefully selected genes. The other half would come from the local drones and no quality guarantee could then be given, in fact the resulting variability would be a nuisance as many queens would require culling due to bad temper. The above comments apply to "european" bees, I have no experiance of scutellata so cannot offer any reasons specific to that strain. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:32:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CAIR Subject: Requeening Nuc? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have been having real problems re-queening a nuc I installed this spring (no brood is my evidence of a problem). I tried requeening but the queen died in the cage before she was released. I also saw a queen on the frames, but she was not the clipped, marked queen that came with the nuc. Still no brood. A few days ago, I took a frame of brood, some still in the "c" shape from a well-stocked hive an switched it with a frame in the non-producing hive. My hope is that the bees would turn a worker larvae into a queen. Is this a false hope? What should I do at this point? Ibrahim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:55:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Balance & propaganda MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > > We are having a little debate on these lines in the UK at the moment, not on > Gaucho but on GM crop field testing. Having attended meetings and a public > debate as well as talking privately to people both pro and anti I am arriving > at a few basic principles. > 1. It is no use arguing with somebody whose mind is made up. > 2. You conduct a scientific test when you already know what the answer will > be and it is the answer you want. If I may add one more: 3. Never test for a problem you can't fix. AL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 20:47:39 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Do bees sleep? In-Reply-To: <200105091411.f49EBnJ16076@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105091411.f49EBnJ16076@listserv.albany.edu>, CharlesW writes >Individual bees "sleep" or at least are dormant in some manner for periods >of time. But, the colony as a whole never sleeps. There is always activity. >They have to keep working ... they have literally thousands of babies to >take care of ... no time to sleep! In studies showing bees' intermittent inactivity for a total of about 8 hours per day (interesting coincidence) the bees' internal activity is AFAIK not monitored. Since wax making and brood food generation goes on between feeding on honey/pollen it seems reasonable to suppose that stillness may well mean glands working hard to produce said results. So, stillness may well not mean sleeping as we know it. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:35:15 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Bloor Subject: Healing properties of manuka honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All I know this topic has been visited a few times. I've just seen a feature on the BBC's Tomorrow's World programme re the = above. A scientist in New Zealand has produced a dressing made entirely from = manuka honey which can be cut and moulded into shape. Wound care = specialists in NZ are going to use it and trials on manuka honey are due = to start at a Liverpool hospital this month. The following address = relates: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/tw/items/010509_honeyhealing.shtml Regards Tony ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 16:43:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Bill and All: >For example, in the article the half life of imidacloprid is discusses >and it varies from reasonable to over a year. Your EPA in the US uses the figure of one year. They are the people who register it I believe, and I expect as in Canada that is an average of experimental values. The half life of a >pesticide does vary depending on the application method and >when/where/how and the conditions under which it is applied. We are talking about application to the soil by either injection, in furrow treatment or seed treatment. The foliar application has a much shorter half life. So you >could bias your findings to have either a long or short half-life. And >where is the pesticide after it has done its thing? The vast majority of the insecticide is staying within the top 30 cm. of soil (I have references for this, but not at my fingertips). The people measuring half life are measuring the amount in that depth of soil. They rarely sample deeper than that. Is it in a place >where it is still in the system to continue to cycle through its killing >or is it there but benign, even at half strength because it is tied up >in plant material/soil/whatever? It is often bound to organic matter. If you look at the half life data you will see that it is often given in relation to soil type. When the chemical is bound to organic matter it can break down faster (because of the larger amount of bacteria in that location). However, organic matter is where the roots in soil feed, so it available to plants from that location. >A pesticide applied in Florida will be out of the system much quicker >than one applied in Canada, especially if both were applied in the fall. >But if you wanted to show it was a good pesticide, take the Florida >data. If bad, take the Canadian. I would say if you live in Florida and data is available, take the Florida data. But if you live in the Northern US or a potato growing region of North America similar to PEI (like *Maine*, Bill), we have a study here which I have already quoted showing that the half life was 366 to 457 days with a soil concentration ranging between 30 and 35 ppb after 24 months. >We have conflicting data on imidacloprid. You have the anecdotal >evidence that it is bad from the French Beekeepers and reports from PEI. You also have a country (France) which spent several million dollars studying the pesticide and honeybees and after that study has continued to ban it. >You have "science" from the pesticide haters saying it is bad and >"science" from Bayer and others, including studies on canola in Canada, >saying it is fine. You have one study in Canada, paid for by Bayer, looking only at obvious lethality (mainly dead bees in front of the hives) which is still unpublished and therefore cannot really be criticized. If the study is so clear why the delay in publishing it? It has been requested several weeks ago by the PMRA of Canada. > But the greenhouse growers have OK'ed it if applied >properly. One would hope an organization with that much self interest >would be circumspect in the use of pesticides, and apparently >imidacloprid is fine after a month's wait. Well why then does the largest supplier of bumblebees to the greenhouse industry, Koppert, specifically caution that the bees should NOT be introduced for a minimum of 45 days after application. And remember, Bill, those bumblebees are basicly a disposable pollination unit. Even if the colony is harmed by the toxin, as long as it is still able to pollinate the crop before it collapses it as an acceptable situation. Moreover, Bill, what is the application rate in the greenhouse? Check with a potato grower near you and you will likely find that they are applying from 250 to 350 grams of active ingredient per hectare (the application rate on sunflowers for comparison is 50 grams per hectare). The highest rate the company has ever considered registering is 450 grams per hectare, and I do not know if they succeeded in registering that, I am just taking that figure from a soil persistence study by Bayer in which they made that statement. That study (by Vogeler, of Bayer) showed residue levels of 2,500 ppb in wheat straw in the second crop of wheat (270 days after application, I believe) and about 1000 ppb in wheat straw in the third crop of wheat after the initial application. (about 410 days after application). The levels of toxin in the first and second crops were nearly equal. So it was not fitting in to what you call "reasonable", Bill. And that was at application of 450 grams a.i. per hectare, just a little more than they are likely putting on potatoes in a field near you. The main difference I see in PEI is that about one out of every five acres here is in potatoes, so we are just seeing the effects a little sooner. Just my anecdotal humble opinion, of course :) Regards Stan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:55:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Lannom Subject: Re: Imirie Shim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used George's shims for 2 years in cut comb production and it has been the easiest most productive thing I have done to encourage my bees to draw and fill comb as complete as any beekeeper could hope. It just makes sense to let the bees do their thing without having to go through the entire hive. In winter they are my top entrance and ANYONE can make their own! Thanks George! Michael (West Branch Apiaries) Mid Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 19:58:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Healing properties of manuka honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Bloor wrote: > A scientist in New Zealand has produced a dressing made entirely from = > manuka honey which can be cut and moulded into shape. Wound care = In my late trial of honey for wound dressing, I found that a hypodermic without the needle works as an excellent applicator. You can buy them from any farm (and probably pet) supply store. (I use them, with the needles, for refilling my computer printers ink cartridges.) When I first started applying the honey, it got a bit messy until I thought of using them. You can control the amount and placement of the honey easily. I use a 10cc hypodermic. Recently, I had minor surgery and used that method for wound healing. If you use a bandaid, you can start the bandaid on one half, apply the honey to the wound and bandaid, and close the bandaid over the wound. It also makes it easy to refresh the honey by just squirting some under the bandaid from time to time. The paper I got from the doctor said the wound would heal in two weeks. Honey cut it in half. I am a believer in honey for topical dressing of wounds. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:17:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Hoyt" Subject: Re: I read the book and still messed it up! Now what? Let me explain the spray bottle just a bit. A few hours before going out to install the bees get a spray bottle (CLEAN) and fill it w/ a 50:50 sugar water solution. Use HOT water - or the sugar won't disolve and it will jam the spray mechanism. Spray the screen sides of the box every little while w/ the sugar water. The bees will lap up the sugar spray from the screen. Do this as often as possible for a bit - and a few more times as you go out to install the hive. The bees will be either (1) fat & lazy w/ the sugar syrup in their belly, or (2) too sticky to fight from the sugar spray. Then, take your time. Careful. They aren't usually very aggresive during this maneuver - unless you really make them mad. Rev. Thomas W. Hoyt Holy Cross Lutheran Church Warda, TX ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:19:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Kinda Weird..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I find this *kinda weird*. I would never put a nuc on the ground not >expecting to get a honey crop till the next year. I am getting ready this >month to super all the nucs I made in April. >Bob I guess it shows the difference in locations. In this area our conditions are similar to bob and bonnies comments. A nuc started April 1 will have filled 2 deeps and need supers now. A package installed April 1 and the queen released at that time and fed syrup and pollen will fill 2 deeps and need supers by June 1 or before. It does seem *kinda wierd* to feed from April to September only to fill brood chambers for winter. Is it worth it? Could you be missing swarms? Marc Studebaker Geneva, IN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:35:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan, Excellent summary and appreciated. Thanks for the correction on the 30 vrs 45 days for greenhouse application. I am not trying to defend imidacloprid, and have no problem with its removal from the marketplace. My continued concern is to get the facts in place when going after a large company pushing a product. Emotion is easy and science is hard. I appreciate Peter Dillon's work in that area. So I did a little more net searching and found this. http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/gaucho/manifestation_paris_us.htm which ties in with Medhat Nzar's concerns and is reasoned and rational. And appears to be using data that is fairly clean and apolitical. Interesting in it does tie in with the origional article that started this whole thread. I got into this whole thing because there were accusations made that imidacloprid was the cause of colony deaths in Canada. It might be. My guess is it is mites or other factors, since it does not track with what has been seen in France but is consistant with observations I have with colony deaths elsewhere, including the numbers. Dealing with pesticides, perception is everything. Bayer has not lost in France, nor have the beekeepers won. There is a moritorium, unless things have changed. Bayer is winning in Canada and the US. Good science is needed first, which is what Peter is doing. And I realize that even that may not be enough, but at least it is a solid foundation from which to fight. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: nice summary of imidacloprid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I have been watching this issue and can't help getting involved here. I have read the entire Bayer publication on the web regarding their work to defend "Gaucho" and "disprove" impacts on honey bees. I also read the above referenced summary. The summary is very well referenced, is based on publically available data used to support EPA registration of imidacloprid, and while the group has an agenda they also work with farmers to reduce the use of pesticides ( notice that - they work with farmers to help develop pest management practices that reduce the need for pesticides ). The data is there for everyone to look at and check out their conclusions. Now the Bayer publication: After reading it I can't agree with Mark Winston's column in Bee Culture because I just don't see the data in the Bayer report to back up their conclusions. They did not do work on chronic toxicity of imidacloprid but instead based their assertions of no impact on acute toxicity studies ( long term vs short term effects ). Because of the way imidacloprid binds to the receptor site in the nervous system it will exibit cummulative dosing i.e. an insect does not have to comsume a large enough dose in a feeding to do any damage but over a period of days the low dose will accumulate in the nervous system and kill the insect. This is why it works so well and also why you just cannot base claims of no impact on acute toxicity studies. In short I find some disturbing holes in Bayer's data regarding the safety of imidacloprid to honey bees. We will soon find out if it will be a problem since it is going to be much more widely used at least here in the! US starting this year. The very long half life of this material is also distrubing as well as its extreme toxicity ( if you don't want to belive me on this look at the application rates - the lower the rate of a pesticide the greater the toxicity of the material or it would not work ). We are using pesticides with greater biological activity levels and we don't seem to realize that they will by their nature be more toxic at lower levels than other older materials. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:43:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: No honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I just returned from New York (USA); just above Albany. Many trees were = in bloom and also the dandelions. I did not see a single honey bee. =20 Billy Bee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: nice summary of imidacloprid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Blane & All, Blane wrote: Now the Bayer publication: After reading it I can't agree with Mark Winston's column in Bee Culture because I just don't see the data in the Bayer report to back up their conclusions. Sadly I didn't either Blane but didn't want to be the first to speak out. Now that you have stepped forward I will say I agree completely. I will say I would have accepted the Bayer report better not knowing about the issue and now ban on imidacloprid in France. Blane wrote: it is going to be much more widely used at least here in the US starting this year. I am afraid the beekeeping world in the U.S. is asleep on the imidacloprid issue. Was the danger of possible large scale bee kills and the troubles in France discussed at the ABF of AHPA conventions? I am still running into beekeepers which have never heard of the problem in France or imidacloprid. In the first post I responded to about imidacloprid I said I would move away from areas of imidicloprid use. Nothing has happened to change my mind. I have marked certain yards for relocation at the first sign of a problem. The *alleged* imidacloprid kill is slow I have been told. Many on Bee-L didn't agree with my relocation plan when first presented but offered no alternative plan. Trying to collect damages from chemical companies and trying to pollinate & produce honey with bees half dead from pesticides will not work. Been there done that. Bob Thinking bees will die or dwindle (pesticides) within flying distance of a commercial apple orchard year around but will do fine three miles down the road. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:00:18 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Healing properties of manuka honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dr Molan does a truly riveting talk on the treatment of wounds with honey, complete with some of the grossest photos one would ever want to see... He is absolutely enthusiastic about the process of wound healing: the things that are needed, such as tissue regeneration, lack of infection, etc. Then, using overhead transparencies that he is drawing on, he graphically describes how it all happens, in very simple to understand terms. Honey provides all sorts of advantages in the process: keeps the wound from drying out, is antibiotic/antibacterial (esp. manuka, which has been found to have particular quantities of this), and doesn't peel off the regenerating tissue as it forms. Dr Molan has done most of his work with manuka honey. *All* honeys are antibiotic/antibacterial, due to such things as high sugar content and the production of a small amount of hydrogen peroxide. Dr Molan has found, however, that some manuka honey (not all...) has *another* expression of antibiotic/antibacterial, one that gives it exceptional 'strength' (did this, incidentally, by removing the hydrogen peroxide component and re-testing, etc... - *excellent* science and method he employs). In common practice? For me, I'll put honey on any wound, but if I was *really* wanting to do a good job with it, I'd go for one that has been tested and shown high activity. And I like that idea of using the syringe! I'm going to have one set up and ready to go... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:48:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: No honey bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where were you in NY? I live above Albany. See bees every time I look out the door (mine of course). Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:32:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Digger Subject: Re: No honey bees In-Reply-To: <200105110325.f4B3PqJ01230@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- huestis wrote: > Where were you in NY? I live above Albany. See bees > every time I look out the door (mine of course). Hi - I'm in southern California and my local bee supply guy (L.A. Honey) says that the only beekeepers left here in socal are hobbyists, so maybe all we ever see are our own bees! Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:51:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Cal French Subject: Inner Covers In-Reply-To: <200105110401.f4B41SJ02222@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have noted recent discussion about comb building between the tops of frames and the inner cover. The Dadant inner covers come with what I think could be better instructions. Of the four reasonably possible ways to build and install the covers, three are wrong: the *shallow* side of the cover with the smooth side of the masonite needs to be down, facing the tops of the frames. Someone named Experience came along to teach me that. If the "deeper" side of the Dadant inner cover faces the tops of the frames, there is a 15 mm space for bees to build comb you do not want. Cal French, Central Coast of California ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:10:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All the ways to assemble an inner cover made from masonite are wrong. Masonite is garbage and won't stand up to the enviornment of a beehive for very long before sagging and peeling off attached to wax and propolis on the frames. If the bees are putting nice white wax on the inner cover you are late in getting your supers on and are missing part of a flow. I scrounge 1/4" plywood for my covers and so far the best is the Baltic birch that pressure washers from Sweden come in. Ask around loading docks if you are looking for scrap to make your own covers.. Lots of metal things that have been painted use 1/4 ply for shipping along with cardboard. Garden tractors , pickup truck accessories etc. A flush trim router bit like is used for laminates makes short work of cutting covers, you just tack them to a super and go around it with the bit and you end up with a piece the same footprint as a super. Nail and glue a rim on it and clinch the nails back so they cant pull out and you are off and running. I use old queen cages for a spacer between inner cover and telescope. They also come in handy as a prop to hold supers apart while you pry the frames down. All ina ll a good flow but a late start in the Northeast USA but a drought if this weekends rain doesn't materialize. Happy Beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:29:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Blue shop Towel Method MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've put a few pictures and references for the Blue shop Towel method at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Sorry, the page is a two minute load these days. I must reduce its size soon. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:00:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Inner Covers & weather extremes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, BeeCrofters gives excellent tips. Recycled wood is used by many beekeepers including myself. Cabinet shops are a excellent source. BeeCrofters wrote: All ina ll a good flow but a late start in the Northeast USA but a drought if this weekends rain doesn't materialize. Florida is in drought and we are in mud in the midwest. I looked at my friends beekeeping truck yesterday with a motor problem from being stuck in mud. Mud hanging on trucks and on floorboards. We have been getting stuck with 4X4's all spring. I had to 4 wheel drive into all yards yesterday and we got another 1 1/2 inch of rain last night. A week of dry weather is predicted so maybe things will dry out. Many years the 4X4 is not needed but when you are going through the wetist spring in 100 years they are our only option. Wet springs *normally* make for excellent honey years *unless* the rain lasts all summer like 1993 the year of the *100 year flood* in the midwest. We are ready now for the rain to stop and move on into Florida and the northeast to end their drought conditions! Happy Beekeeping. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:09:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I use 1/2 inch plywood. At approx $12-$15 per sheet divided by 10 = $1.20-$1.50 per inner cover. Want top entrance cut v-notch. Need feeder hole drill one. They are strong and last. Compare to $5-10 from bee supply companies which don't hold up to real work with bees. Bee space, well, they don't care if there is any proper space. Get your supers on early as far as wax on inner covers scrape it and harvest it its worth something you know. If your not strong enough to pop cover get one of those jumbo hive tools that'll take care of it. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:29:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" When I started beekeeping many years ago, I used to use inner covers but after a while and after I had more then 4 hives, I found the inner covers to have no real purpose, in fact I found that they help to keep too much moisture in the hive which aids in the development of chack brood. I have capped my hive inventory at 30 because of space and time but after I stopped using inner covers I noticed that chack brood cases dropped to almost nothing. I keep bees in northern Utah and even in the winter I crack open the tops about 1/8 of an inch to allow constant ventilation and rarely see chack brood and do not loose any hives to cold. Even for feeding I install an empty super on top and feed right on top of the frames. Another advantage that I found when I stopped using the inner covers is that in the winter I can just left up the cover and can easily see the bees without disturbing them through the empty super, they do not come up to the empty super because it's a little cold up there and they just stay on the top box within the frames. The only thing with this situation is that if I take too long to install frames into the empty super in the spring they start to build wax above the frames, but this does not happen until April or May (depending on the weather). So, why use inner covers !. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Inner Covers & weather extremes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Wet springs *normally* make for excellent honey years *unless* the rain lasts all summer like 1993 the year of the *100 year flood* in the midwest. I thought I should add that in 1993 we had a dry April and then the rain started. In 1993 we got 5-6 plus inches at a time for days in a row. 2001 is similar in my opinion to 1995 when we had a wet April and did get bottom land flooding but had record honey crops. The summer dried out somewhat. Many beekeepers have got hives on bottom land which was under water in both 93 and 95. They make the best crops. Will we ever learn? The problem is not finding the time to move the bees but being able to get in to extract the bees in the mud. If a levee breaks all hives are lost regardless. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:43:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: inner covers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Inner covers are one of those things like queen excluders - everyone has an opinion, very little fact. Fact: Some of us never use them, except maybe as an upper entrance in winter - watch the 1,000 - 14,000 colony commercial operations. They may use them for over-wintering, but I can't remember seeing any on hives during honey production season in our part of the world (Pacific NW). Maybe the commercial folks in your areas do things differently. Fact: Many hobbiests use them - probably - and this is opinion, because it makes it easier to feed bees, may make it easier to open and inspect the colony, can be used with a bee escape to clear honey supers, and because bee supply houses sell them. Fact: You see them in humid areas - and this may make some sense - the oft-stated opinion is that they help ventilate the have and keep the condensation away from the frames. Fact: In Guatemala, they use black plastic sheeting - like comes in heavy trash bags or on rolls. Just tear off and lay over the top bars, overlapping the hive body - you can see the plastic sticking out from under the cover. Fact: Trees don't have inner covers. So, inner covers were invented by someone and bee supply houses started building and selling them - and they are handy for feeding with an inverted pail or bottle, do provide an upper entrance (an auger hole will do the same), and can be used to get bees out of the honey supers (if you can afford the time to wait) - personally, I blow them out. If anyone can point to hard studies on the effects of inner covers on hive humidity or temperature, please provide the citation(s). This is somewhat similar to Covers. Hobbiests often buy and use telescoping covers and cover these with metal flashing. Now, in this case, you NEED an inner cover. Trying to pry off a telescoping cover that has been glued down by the bees or bridged with bar comb is no fun. Commercial operations use covers that range from a flat board, to a simple cover with cross pieces on the ends, to a few creative (top and bottom board combos). But, never telescoping - at least, I've not seen any in MT, WA, ID, TX, NM. Why - mainly cost. That's why the commercial hives don't look like the hobbiest hives. Pallets often replace hive stands (and in many cases, even bottom boards), inner covers, slotted bottoms, etc. are left off, and the covers are as simple as you can make them. A handy rock or a nail keeps the flat cover on the hive. Queen excluders may or may not be used. If used, its to keep the queen out of the honey supers - a time saver. What do you have to have for a beehive? Some type of container with sides, top, and bottom. Some place for the bees to come and go. Some way to get the honey out. Trees, logs, top bar hives, skeps, modern hives - just containers. Bee space is important. Material is important. Treated lumber may be toxic. Plastics don't breathe, which may increase moisture problems. Masonite, particle board, and other wood composites often delaminate in wet conditions - especially humid climates. Its already humid inside the hive. Inner covers, queen excluders, slotted bottom boards have specific uses, hive stands, which vary depending on the type of beekeeping, geographical area, etc. But you don't have to have any of these extras. Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:10:41 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Inner Covers In-Reply-To: <200105111323.f4BDNPJ11094@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 May 2001 BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > Masonite is garbage and won't stand up to the enviornment of a beehive for > very long before sagging and peeling off attached to wax and propolis on the > frames. This has not been my experience. I have 30 masonite inner covers from 20 years ago and they have stood up better than the plywood ones and far better than the chipboard ones. It is important to specify tempered masonite. The untempered is not particularly waterproof and is quite unsuitable. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:16:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bob & Liz (by way of Research)" Subject: Re: Inner Covers & weather extremes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hello All, Wet springs *normally* make for excellent honey years *unless* the rain lasts all summer like 1993 the year of the *100 year flood* in the midwest. I thought I should add that in 1993 we had a dry April and then the rain started. In 1993 we got 5-6 plus inches at a time for days in a row. 2001 is similar in my opinion to 1995 when we had a wet April and did get bottom land flooding but had record honey crops. The summer dried out somewhat. Many beekeepers have got hives on bottom land which was under water in both 93 and 95. They make the best crops. Will we ever learn? The problem is not finding the time to move the bees but being able to get in to extract the bees in the mud. If a levee breaks all hives are lost regardless. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:19:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Creosote bottom boards Hello All, I have never used creosote bottoms boards nor do I plan to in the future but several beekeepers have wanted me to ask the list a question. A large area beekeeper had around 2000 bottom boards of his own design coated with cresote at a local( out of business now) cresote plant. His operation begain to experience trouble with hive death after he started using the bottoms. The mites had hit so most figured the mites were the primary problem. After the beekeepers death many of the boards were sold and many other beekeepers have said bees don't thrive on those cresote bottom boards he had made up. Most said once they remove the board and replace with a non cresote board the hive condition improves. Dwindling and not thriving are most often described. question: Was the cresote plant mix wrong and this is a isolated incident or have others had or seen a similar problem? >From the dictionary: Creosote- an oily liquid obtained by the distillation of wood tar and coal tar, used as an antiseptic and preservative. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:12:11 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: I read the book and . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Tom. Many years ago I read in a magazine a package introducing procedure which sounds very strange but worked like a charm. Wait until near dusk then remove the queen cage and reinstall the feed can loosely. Turn the package on its side and then slosh a quart of tepid water over all the bees. Jar the mass to the bottom of the cage, remove the can and dump the bees into the hive. Best if half the frames are set aside temporarily so there is a place for the bees. They can't fly because their wings are wet. No need for sugar spray because you are going to be feeding them as soon as they are in the hive. Lower the remaining frames into the mass of bees, top with a queen excluder and an empty hive body. Place the package box on the excluder - it is simply serving as a rack - add inner cover and cover. The next day remove the excluder, package and empty box. The leftover bees ought to have abandoned their home of the previous week and joined their sisters and queen down below. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 02:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Creosote bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200105111816.f4BIGAJ22696@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 11 May 2001, Bob Harrison wrote: > I have never used creosote bottoms boards nor do I plan to in the > future but several beekeepers have wanted me to ask the list a > question. A large area beekeeper had around 2000 bottom boards of > his own design coated with cresote at a local( out of business now) > cresote plant. Given that coal tar products can be used as insecticides, and that coal tar creosote is what is used as a wood preservative, I'd be *very* apprehensive about using creosote in an apiary operation. Coal tar creosote may have insecticidal properties. Also, keep in mind that the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the EPA both suspect coal tar creosote of being a human carcinogen. For more information: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html -- James Ralston, Pittsburgh, PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Creosote bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, James wrote: Given that coal tar products can be used as insecticides, and that coal tar creosote is what is used as a wood preservative, I'd be *very* apprehensive about using creosote in an apiary operation. Coal tar creosote may have insecticidal properties. Thanks James for the input. I should have added the beekeeper also had his four way pallets treated. I was offered the pallets & bottom boards for sale after his death but like you were apprehensive so I declined. I have seen beekeeping sales with a small number of creosote dipped bottom boards. I started beekeeping in rural Florida years ago and remember beekeepers using creosote bottom boards. The use was not widespread. Bob for more information http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts85.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:43:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: American Foulbrood Hello All, Last night I spent the evening with a fellow beekeeper going through another beekeepers dead outs. We were going frame by frame looking for AFB. The beekeeper the boxes belonged to had pulled every frame he thought could possibly have a problem. He had been using hygenic queens. Unlike the old days where AFB was clearly visible now we are finding only a few cells per side and the bees have cleaned out everything but the scale. None of the AFB is ropey but the scale with the paupal tounge is unmistakable. Are others on the list seeing the simialr situation with terramycin resistant AFB and using hygenic queens? These frames are going to be disposed of but we are looking closely to try to understand the problem. Thanks in advance. Bob Thinking looking for a few cells of AFB is like looking at chads on a voting ballet. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 15:17:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Inner cover MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hobbyist that I am, I am very fond of inner covers. An important difference from some I see is that I close the bee escape hole so there are no bees above the inner cover. I cut a hole for a feeding jar over near a corner where the cover can carry the load with less sagging. Then I close the hole with 1/8" hardware cloth when not feeding. A very strange thing happens often. The bees cover the hardware cloth with propolis! Apparently they don't like the upper ventilation. This happens both here in WA state and in Guam. They don't care for the upper ventilation in Guam either? Who would have thunk it? Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rob Green Subject: Re: Creosote bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200105111816.f4BIGAJ22696@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Years ago, where I lived, the word came out that creosote was carcinagenic, and shouldn't even be used in the form of old railway ties in flower-only gardens. Seems it was nasty stuff. At 01:19 PM 5/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >Was the cresote plant mix wrong and this is a isolated incident or have >others had or seen a similar problem? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:47:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/12/01 5:39:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, busybeeacres@DISCOVERYNET.COM writes: > Unlike the old days where AFB was clearly visible now we are finding only a > few cells per side and the bees have cleaned out everything but the scale. Is there any pattern to the distribution of the scales? center edges etc. I have a few iffy deadout frames, no ropey mess some dead larvae belly up, no smell of decay ,but no discernable scales. I am curious to hear a description of a frame of dead brood from a non AFB demise. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 19:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: n0cwr@BIRCH.NET Subject: Package arrived with dead queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ok, I know as soon as I post this I will probably find the info but, I have been going through my books, notebook, and Internet. (searched bee-l archives keyword "dead queen") I've read about this before, But the question anyhow, We received our 3 lb package today, Saturday, of Starlines. We waited till an hour before our sunset to install the package only to find the queen dead. So, being that this particular package was to go into a hive that we were going to try "inside" this year, (a temperature controlled room in a garage with exterior entrance) Would it be ok to release the package into the hive body and simply cap up the exterior entrances to the hive till the new queen arrives? My thinking, that it would be easier to feed and more room in the hive body, it has to be better than the storing in the package cage? What about leaving the dead queen hanging in the cage in the hive till the new queen arrives? Would some kind soul please advise this beginner? Hoping they can ship another queen quickly! Thanks in advance Joan Schavee. Kansas. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 18:28:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Balled Queen By sheer co-incidence, or luck, I was checking out a hive with an extremely valuable queen and found her balled; badly balled. I placed her in a cage with five young bees and removed her. She had not been injured. Notwithstanding the cause of the balling (most likely: drifting; I am busy moving colonies around the countryside) the challenge here is reintroduction. After two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive in the cage suspended by wire between two populous brood frames. Tomorrow, I plan to place her in a 10cm by 10cm cage made from metal mosquito wire. This cage is 15mm deep; 5mm will be sunk into wax of cleaned cells, ready for eggs. She will be installed with a few young bees in the cage. The idea is that she will be more readily re-accepted by the colony if she is laying eggs. If all works out, she will be released after three to four days. Is this methodology OK? I simply CANNOT lose this queen. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 23:33:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, You stated that this beekeeper who lost hives to AFB "had been using Hygienic Queens." My question is: Were these hives and bees been TESTED for proof of hygienic bees, or had the beekeeper just purchased queens that had been advertised as having Hygienic Behavior? The point is that ANY body can advertise that they are producing hygienic queens, but it is the responsibility of the buyer to test the bees to prove the bees actually have hygienic behavior. This problem is a fear of mine. I question how many beeHAVERS or even some real beekeepers will bother to test for themselves. You are not going to be able to buy a TESTED queen for $10, $15, or even $50, and what breeder can afford the 2-3 months of labor intensive TESTING? I think bees possessing Hygienic Behavior may be the best answer to make some disease deaths of honey bees obsolete; but it is going to require a different type of person to keep bees than we have today. Did you know that after ether was discovered, the medical profession did not really accept its use as an anesthesia for over 30 years? And Dr, Fleming discovered penicillin in 1928, but it was not accepted as an antibiotic until near the end of World War II. Most people are very slow and reluctant to make changes based on the findings of scientists; and I know because I am a retired scientist. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:23:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Package arrived with dead queen In-Reply-To: <200105130301.f4D31pJ14012@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We received our 3 lb package today, Saturday, of Starlines. > We waited till an hour before our sunset to install the package only to > find the queen dead... Sorry about the bad luck. I'm sure you'll tough it out though. > Would it be ok to release the package into the hive body and simply cap up > the exterior entrances to the hive till the new queen arrives? My thinking, > that it would be easier to feed and more room in the hive body, it has to > be better than the storing in the package cage? Yes. The bees do better on comb. If you could snag a bit of open brood somewhere to give them they would be happier yet. I'd put the hive in a cool *totally dark* (not even a crack of light) place until the queen comes if you have no brood. Remember they need at minimum as a 10 pound animal in order not to suffocate, and some water (a wet sponge on a plate?). Also, I find it hard to believe that there is not a beekeeper nearby that would not immediately give or sell you a queen or cell. There are very few places in North America with no beekeeper around, and with very few exceptions beekeepers help beekeepers. It's a fraternity. > What about leaving the dead queen hanging in the cage in the hive till the > new queen arrives? No point in that. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 21:14:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: American Foulbrood In-Reply-To: <200105122143.f4CLhXJ07905@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > None of the AFB is ropey but the scale with the pupal tongue is > unmistakable. There *are* conditions that very closely mimic AFB. If this is indeed AFB, and it is not getting worse, but seems to be controlled, then you have a very interesting situation. Perhaps the situation needs more analysis, and that analysis could lead to a discovery of importance. > He had been using hygienic queens. > Unlike the old days where AFB was clearly visible now we are finding only a > few cells per side and the bees have cleaned out everything but the scale. This is assuming that there was something else in the first place. Perhaps there are just a few cells that were infected. > Are others on the list seeing the similar situation with > terramycin resistant AFB and using hygienic queens? Dunno. Personally, I am not seeing ANY AFB of any type at all so far. We don't have the resistant AFAIK, and maybe the queens we are getting these days are more resistant to AFB that the ones we used to get, but we are just unable to find any. I suspect that more and more breeders are realising that they will lose their customers if the customers bees get AFB crops are reduced or equipment has to be destroyed. On the other hand, if their bees are resistant, then their customers will stay in business and keep coming back. The hygienic test aren't all that tough to do and more and more people are demanding it from suppliers. LET'S ALL ASK OUR SUPPLIERS EVERY TIME AND MAKE IT KNOWN THAT WE WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING ELSE. > These frames are going to be disposed of but we are looking > closely to try to understand the problem. That's a good idea, studying this more, I mean, not necessarily destroying frames. However if this scale tests positive in a *lab* test, then you know that the equipment has AFB and then it is like being a little pregnant. The decision is at that point whether to destroy or irradiate *all* the equipment in this batch or to just get rid of the scale and rely on drugs and hygienic queens to keep he disease at bay. If the you are only getting rid of the scale and there are only a few cells here and there, why not just knock down the few scaly cells and let the bees clean them up? The resulting frames will not be significantly more contaminated than the rest of the frames. It is most interesting to hear that hygienic queens are working that well. I'd be interested to know how many hives in the outfit had these queens and how consistent they are. If we could get consistently hygienic queens I believe that we would seldom see AFB -- and when we did, it would be a small concern compared to what it is now. Medication would be unnecessary, as would perhaps be burning or melting. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 23:02:00 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: I read the book and . . . In-Reply-To: <200105112333.f4BNX1J04304@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Many years ago I read in a magazine a package introducing > procedure which sounds very strange but worked like a charm. I am sure that this technique can work and has worked, BUT the conditions under which packages can be installed and the level of knowledge of the new beekeeper can vary so widely that I can guarantee that at a very minimum, 20% of those trying this method will come to some kind of grief. The system described is too complex and there are too many paces to go wrong compared to waiting for dark, opening the hive and dumping in the bees along with the queen, then putting things in and closing things up the way they should be -- and not returning for several days. That last item is the hard one for many. I won't go into all the possible pitfalls here, but recommend searching the archives at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ using _install package_ as the key with 'substring search' checked. > leftover bees ought to have abandoned their home of the previous week > and joined their sisters and queen down below. The key words here are 'ought to have'. I've heard lots of horror stories and you can read some among the 198 hits -- if you do the above search. If you want to see packages installed by hundreds with no fooling around, visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/2000/Diary040100.htm allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Balled Queen In-Reply-To: <200105130303.f4D33SJ14354@listserv.albany.edu>; from barry_sergeant@MYIAFRICA.COM on Sat, May 12, 2001 at 06:28:47PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, May 12, 2001 at 06:28:47PM -0400, Barry Sergeant wrote: > By sheer co-incidence, or luck, I was checking out a hive with an > extremely valuable queen and found her balled; badly balled. I placed > her in a cage with five young bees and removed her. She had not been > injured. Notwithstanding the cause of the balling (most likely: drifting; I > am busy moving colonies around the countryside) the challenge here > is reintroduction. After two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive > in the cage suspended by wire between two populous brood frames. > Tomorrow, I plan to place her in a 10cm by 10cm cage made from > metal mosquito wire. This cage is 15mm deep; 5mm will be sunk into > wax of cleaned cells, ready for eggs. She will be installed with a few > young bees in the cage. The idea is that she will be more readily > re-accepted by the colony if she is laying eggs. If all works out, she will > be released after three to four days. Is this methodology OK? I simply > CANNOT lose this queen. > I would think a NUC introduction would be safer. Since you already have the queen you cannot make the NUC up in advance. My thoughts are this: I would add a hive body above the current bodies and move some frames of brood up there. Put a queen excluder under this body just in case there is a virgin or other queen running around in the hive. Let a population of nurse bees get up into the brood. Now leave the excluder in place and isolate the upper body with newspaper. Put the cage into the upper area. I would even put a feeder on the hive as a well fed hive tends to take queens better. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:26:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, George wrote: You stated that this beekeeper who lost hives to AFB "had been using Hygienic Queens." My question is: Were these hives and bees been TESTED for proof of hygienic bees, or had the beekeeper just purchased queens that had been advertised as having Hygienic Behavior? The queens were from the Marla Spivak Italian line orginally started by Basil Furgala and the work later done by Marla. Having used the line for many years and tested for hygienic behavior on several occasions I believe most of the lines daughters show hygienic behavior but of varing degrees. George wrote: I think bees possessing Hygienic Behavior may be the best answer to make some disease deaths of honey bees obsolete; but it is going to require a different type of person to keep bees than we have today. Hygienic behavior is certainly a strong point in picking a queen to graft from. Most researchers and beekeepers agree with George that hygienic bees could be the solution for many of beekeepings problems. They could be a big asset dealing with varroa. Beekeeping has inadvertently culled many beekeepers over the last decade. In my opinion further adjustments will have to be made by those remaining if they are to continue beekeeping as new problems arise. Many large beekeepers are discovering they are having to reduce numbers in order to keep healthy bees. Many sideline beekeepers are realizing in order to market their honey because of low wholesale prices they can not successfully manage the number of hives they could before mites,etc. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Bob wrote: Unlike the old days where AFB was clearly visible now we are finding only a few cells per side and the bees have cleaned out everything but the scale. Bee Crofter wrote: Is there any pattern to the distribution of the scales? Center edges ect. Bob wrote: It is hard to say but the cells with scale we have found have all been obviously in the center oval brood rearing area. We have found typical type frames with scatered AFB pattern but on most all is left is a few scales. Hygenic bees only cleaning up part of the mess are in my opinion making detection harder. *In my opinion* hygenic bees might not be what you want if you were doing a cull and burn policy. Hygenic bees would however be a big asset for a apiary using regular treatments of antibiotics for the active disease and those treating and seeing trramycin resistant AFB. I realize today by the time I finnish answering Allen & George's posts I will raise a few eyebrows. There are researchers on the Bee-L list better able to respond to these questions than an beekeeper searching for complex answers. Before those researchers leap on me I will say to all. AFB scale in my opinion is a sure sign you are looking *in my opinion* at a AFB frame. Correct me if I am wrong. The lab tests for AFB are several but still *in my opinion* the scale is the key in the last stage. The rule of thumb beekeepers use to buy used equipment by. Bee Crofter wrote: I have a few iffy deadout frames, no ropey mess some dead larvae belly up, no smell of decay ,but no discernable scales. I am curious to hear a description of a frame of dead brood from a non AFB demise. Excellent question raised. Parasitic Mite syndrome frames closely resemble AFB frames. We see many of those type frames since varroa arrived. The above description in my opinion describes a PMS frame. I must caution that only lab tests can determine AFB for sure but once the beekeeper is familiar with the clues and makes a careful examination of the frame you can be fairly sure of the diagnosis. The frames we were looking through in this situation amounts to between 250 & 300 frames. The big problem I had with the problem was the first beekeeper had culled the frames from the original deadouts into boxes so the frames from the different deadouts were all mixed together. Each frame had to be evaluated on its own merit making the process very slow. Looking for AFB scale in a dark brood comb is about like checking each cell for a egg. All three long time beekeepers agree which have examined these frames we are looking at AFB. Our question is: 1. Are the hygienic bees removing all but the most stubborn scale? 2. Is the amount of scale low because we are seeing the Terramycin resistant strain? 3. Why are we not finding the ropy stage if these hives died over the last winter. Are the hygienic bees removing the ropy stage? Is this really a good thing or is this spreading the disease even faster than in the old days when the bees simply quit using the AFB brood frame. In the *old days* the beekeeper would have to eventually notice the AFB problem as the number of frames the bees were ignoring built up. If what we are looking at IS the work of hygienic bees then the problem is becoming harder to detect until the final stages (in my opinion). Bob Ps. Keep in mind the two policies used by the majority of beekeepers for AFB are 1. cull & burn 2. treat with antibiotics and prevent the active disease leaving the spores. This option with Terramycin is fast disappearing. Hopefully a new antibiotic will be registered for AFB use in the U.S. before the smoke from burning AFB hives will be seen for miles. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:52:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vital Gaudreau Subject: Re: Inner covers Recently on May 11, item 035420, Jerry B. Bromenshenk wrote: > Fact: Some of us never use them, except maybe as an upper entrance in winter... > If anyone can point to hard studies on the effects of inner covers on hive humidity or temperature, please provide the citation(s).... > Hobbiests often buy and use telescoping covers and cover these with metal flashing. Now, in this case, you NEED an inner cover. Trying to pry off a telescoping cover that has been glued down by the bees or bridged with bar comb is no fun. > Commercial operations use.....but, never telescoping - at least, I've not seen any in MT, WA, ID, TX, NM. Why - mainly cost. I would like to provide these "hard" facts: During summer 1999, a beekeeper in my area decided to make nucs on top of some existing hives just by leaving the inner cover and adding a reg. size super filled with 2-3 brood frames with adhering bees + food frames, etc...on top. He left at the bottom of the i.c. a small entry for the bees to escape and because it was a temporary set-up, he simply put the telescopic cover (covered with metal) on top. Then, we've got 3 consecutive days of hot weather reaching 90-95 degrees. Yes, you've guessed what happened...the bees in the nuc dyed by suffocation. The temperature inside the nuc must have got so high that it was impossible for the small amount of bees to cool off the hive... I wonder now if these nucs would had been supplied with an inner cover under the metal cover..., my guess is that the temperature would not have got so high....and the bees would have survived...please comment...I have no other facts.... I know that the so called "commercial" beekeepers would not do such a thing ...(wrrrhm...), I also know that it was not the right thing to do ....but it happened. What I simply want to do is to warn/prevent in advance the "not so knowledgeable" hobbist that listening to only one part of the story may lead to misinterpretation and also can/could lead to disaster as well...I mean that proper ventilation of the hive should be mentionned in such a situation....AFAIK... Don't you think so? Vital Gaudreau Sainte-Therese, Quebec ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 08:36:35 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Anyone and everyone with interest in bees is welcome to join. We do, however, have rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than most on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. We would like to point out to new members (and remind long-time members) that all our rules, including the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. The page also provides links to enable you to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel immediately your BEE-L membership. IMPORTANT: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there . If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened . (There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators). allen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:20:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: inner covers In-Reply-To: <200105111504.f4BF4WJ15088@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Inner covers are one of those things like queen excluders - everyone has an > opinion, very little fact. I use inner covers -- in their place -- particularly for wintering in some of our older style wraps and as divider boards for top nucs, and occasionally as emergency floors, although we are moving more and more away from them in favour of pillows and sheets of plastic. There are pictures of inner covers and pillows in use at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Spring/unwrap.htm and pictures of pillow making at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Pix/Default.htm . Of course, in my diary, there are many pictures of pillows in use as well as pictures of the new style of wrap we use that is complimentary to the pillows and which can stay on all year. This added protection has paid off this year because of the strong winds and cool weather we have had since March. I'm sorry that searching the diary is tough due to its structure. I must improve that someday. (Suggestions welcome). I've discussed the advantages of pillows here before and the BEE-L articles are an easy search at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L due to the uniqueness of the word 'pillow'. allen --- If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. -- Dave Barry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Allen wrote: There *are* conditions that very closely mimic AFB. Allen is correct. The problem is made harder by the PMS frames. However PMS frames do not have scale, smell and fail the ropey test. Usually the cell cap can be removed and the larva extracted by the beekeeper with a pair of tweezers. The first beekeeper put PMS frames in the mix which we later removed. Also a few frames we saw nothing wrong with. Allen wrote: If this is indeed AFB, and it is not getting worse, but seems to be controlled, then you have a very interesting situation. AFB the oldest foe of beekeepers is *back with a vengence*. In the Apis newsletter they report wide spread hives being lost to AFB. in Florida. The AFB problem is mounting in the U.S.. Sadly many beekeepers only find the AFB in the spring of the year going through deadouts. Bob wrote: He had been using hygienic queens. Unlike the old days where AFB was clearly visible now we are finding only a few cells per side and the bees have cleaned out everything but the scale. Allen wrote; This is assuming that there was something else in the first place. Perhaps there are just a few cells that were infected. I wish I knew the answer to this important question. The slide of Dr. Larry Conners of the one cell of AFB always comes to mind. In my opinion what we have been looking at is the work of hygienic bees but would like to hear from others with AFB and using known hygienic queens. Allen wrote: Personally, I am not seeing ANY AFB of any type at all so far. We don't have the resistant AFAIK, and maybe the queens we are getting these days are more resistant to AFB that the ones we used to get, but we are just unable to find any. For years in the U.S. treating with terramycin prevented the active AFB and for the first time in the history of beekeeping the worst plague of beekeeping was a non issue. I have been monitering the problem over the last four years and do see the AFB problem increasing. Keep a sharp lookout. Allen wrote: However if this scale tests positive in a *lab* test, then you know that the equipment has AFB and then it is like being a little pregnant. The decision is at that point whether to destroy or irradiate *all* the equipment in this batch or to just get rid of the scale and rely on drugs and hygienic queens to keep he disease at bay. Each beekeeper has to decide on his own which plan to follow. Both these beekeepers are using the burn, render comb and boil in Lye water plan. This plan dates back to the high point of AFB in the U.S.(1940's). If the you are only getting rid of the scale and there are only a few cells here and there, why not just knock down the few scaly cells and let the bees clean them up? The resulting frames will not be significantly more contaminated than the rest of the frames. . Will answer with a couple quotes from *The Hive and the Honey Bee* ( copy 1992 pg. 1085) "Approximately 2.5 BILLION spores are produced in each infected larva." "Spores can remain viable INDEFINETLY on beekeeping equipment" "Spores of AFB germinate approx one day after igestion by the larva" "ONE spore is sufficient to infect a larva a day old after egg hatch" "Based on statistics submited by the Apiary Inspectors of America from 44 reporting states ,1.8% of all colonies inspected in the U.S. had American Foulbrood disease in 1984." Could AFB the sleeping giant be waking up? Allen wrote: It is most interesting to hear that hygienic queens are working that well. I'd be interested to know how many hives in the outfit had these queens and how consistent they are. If we could get consistently hygienic queens I believe that we would seldom see AFB -- and when we did, it would be a small concern compared to what it is now. Medication would be unnecessary, as would perhaps be burning or melting. Allen, George and others could be right about the above. My opinion is we are going to have to get another antibiotic registered quickly *before* the problem gets larger. The beekeeper I work closest with uses the expensive artificially inseminated hygenic breeder queens. He is still seeing a increase in AFB. I have been working with his queen reaing process this year. Marla Spivak, Sue Colbey and the other researchers are coming up with amazing queens. The daughters of my friends breeder queen were reported to me by the Apple orchard owner as flying *TWO* hours earlier in the morning polinating the blossoms when the other two beekeepers hives had no activity at the entrance. Large grove owners noticed these things! Most large grove owners want several beekeepers to do the polinating so they feel secure if one beekeeper has a problem the others can take up the slack. The orchard owner determines which beekeeper brings in the most hives based on performance. Hmmm. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:35:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Inner cover In-Reply-To: <200105130254.f4D2sKJ13046@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105130254.f4D2sKJ13046@listserv.albany.edu>, dan hendricks writes >The bees cover the hardware >cloth with propolis! It is a useful method for harvesting propolis. Deep freeze the sheet and flex it to get the propolis off and there you have a valuable harvest. Put it back on and get more. Make your own tinctures or ointments. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:09:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: U.S. Postal Service Greetings Ladies and Gentleman, Hope all is going well with everyone. Nectar is beginning to flow here, but if we dont get some rain in eastern Missouri, the flow will be weak and short lived. I have a question for the list. Around here, many beekeepers have been having trouble with the postal service. Lost bees, lost queens, dead bees and queens, etc have been appearing more and more this year. Many beekeepers around here report problems with the postal service. One beekeeper's shipment of 40 or so queens sat in the airport for over a week before he got them! I was wondering if this is isolated to this area (St. Louis), or if other people have noticed an increase in problems as well. We are contacting the postal service here with our concerns. Thanks for any help you can give. Also, to alleviate congestion on the list, feel free to contact my email. Thanks! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:00:41 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Package arrived with dead queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > We waited till an hour before our sunset to install the package only to > find the queen dead. Joan Quite often a package will arrive with a dead queen in the cage. When the package is made up sometimes a queen is accidentally included with the worker bees and in this case the bees will kill any caged queens. My advice would be to hive the bees, without the dead queen, and check for eggs in a couple of days rather than dashing out to get a new queen. If they already have a free queen you will frustrate yourself to no end trying to get them to accept a caged queen. Al Picketts PEI, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:22:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Beekeeperc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same problem here. Last year I ordered 6 queens and the driver had them in his truck and then placed them in my mailbox in July and they were baked to death. On the package there was a note to call me when the bees arrived, but they failed to. Guess they were too busy. Good luck. I try to raise my own queens now. Norm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:43:14 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Henry Harris Organization: ARC-OVI Subject: Re: Creosote bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200105130257.f4D2v7J13285@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi everyone We use creosote on all our hives, from the bottom board to the lid. What we do is, after the second layer, we leave the the whole box in the sun,wind for up to 6 weeks, after that it is rinsed with water and let to dry 1-2days.Our bees have no problem occuping the box. Even wild swarms occupy the empty boxes. The big thing is, everything must be 120% dry, and the smell out. We have never experienced any slow working, dwindeling etc. from our bees. Regards Henry (CHASE HONEY S.A) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 00:49:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MatHig@AOL.COM Subject: how to identify mean hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any good tricks on how to identify which hive in an apiary is the aggressive one? I have 5 hives sitting about 25 ft west of my garden. The hives are about 10 ft apart. Starlines or derivatives. I have had no problems when working the hives this year (switching boxes, adding supers, feeding, treating for mites, etc). But when working in my garden (not doing anything to the bees) on several occasions this spring, I have been repeatedly dive-bombed by aggressive bees. Just a few, but they don't give up. They don't bother me when I stand among the hives, just when I'm about 50 ft out in front of them. It's rather embarassing, but I can't figure which one is the naughty one. Any ideas? Thanks in advance, Matt Higdon mid-MO, mid-USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:58:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: FYI: Bees pass cognitive tests usually given to apes and people... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/04/19/MN123916.DTL&type=s cience Dave Green What's Buzzin' in My Garden? http://pollinator.com/Identify/whatsbuzzin.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:16:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Around here, many >beekeepers have been having trouble with the postal service. Lost bees, >lost queens, dead bees and queens, etc have been appearing more and more >this year. Many beekeepers around here report problems with the postal >service. Scott, I have always had good luck with the postal service. Possably because we live in a small community. I tell the post office that I am expecting bees and to call as soon as they are in. Often they will call from the distrbution center in Fort Wayne, IN just to let me know they are in route. I have even had the postmaster make a special run to deliver them to my house ( about 5 miles). Marc Studebaker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 07:41:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Digger Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service In-Reply-To: <200105141231.f4ECVsJ19799@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Marc Studebaker wrote: > I have always had good luck with the postal service. > Possably because we live in a small community. I live in a small community at the northern part of Los Angeles, and the post office has always called as soon as packaged bees arrive (on Sundays too!). I thought it was because they wanted those darned bees out of their building as soon as possible... Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:48:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: American Foulbrood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Bob asked: 1. Are the hygienic bees removing all but the most stubborn scale? 2. Is the amount of scale low because we are seeing the Terramycin resistant strain? 3. Why are we not finding the ropy stage if these hives died over the last winter. Are the hygienic bees removing the ropy stage? Is this really a good thing or is this spreading the disease even faster than in the old days when the bees simply quit using the AFB brood frame. In the *old days* the beekeeper would have to eventually notice the AFB problem as the number of frames the bees were ignoring built up. If what we are looking at IS the work of hygienic bees then the problem is becoming harder to detect until the final stages (in my opinion). Bob Ps. Keep in mind the two policies used by the majority of beekeepers for AFB are 1. cull & burn 2. treat with antibiotics and prevent the active disease leaving the spores. This option with Terramycin is fast disappearing. Hopefully a new antibiotic will be registered for AFB use in the U.S. before the smoke from burning AFB hives will be seen for miles. Questions: 1. Interesting observations regarding AFB scale in used equipment. The hygenic bees may also be preventing more scale by removing infected larvae before they can dry down to scale. For some reason they are not getting it all but if there is too much disease they can be overwhelmed by it so that could be part of the problem or as you suspect they may just not be able to remove some of the scale. Hygenic bees usually remove diseased larvae before they become infectious and long before they become scale. I have seen partially removed brood in hygenic colonies that were white with no visable disease at all but the bees were removing them. Couldn't tell why they were being removed but they were. One question here. Were these colonies killed by AFB or something else? If a colony dies from AFB there usually is lots of scale but if a colony that is resistant is dealing with the disease but still has a small amount of infected brood that isn't being removed and dies from something else you would expect to find little scale. Resistant bees can and sometimes do get AFB but will usually clean it up over a few weeks time. The colony is able to handle the some disease and clean it out over time but it does take some time and you may find a few cells of disease during this process. The other question is how much scale were they given? Even strongly hygenic colonies that are given a lot of scale can be overwhelmed by it. 2. No. TM resistant AFB produces plenty of scale - whole frames of it just like you used to see and it looks and smells like AFB. The only difference that one sees is it does not respond normally to TM. Even in properly treated colonies you will still see active AFB including ropey larvae and scale being produced. TM resistant AFB is not the reason for you only finding scattered scales. 3. I suspect you are not finding ropey larvae simply due to the timing - it has been too long for the larvae to remain in the ropey stage they have dried to scales. Again interesting observations. I think the hygenic stock will help with disease management but is not the total answer. Actually, most beekeepers will probably see more benefit from their resistance to chalkbrood. Chalkbrood causes economic losses to beekeepers by bleeding away hive populations. USDA honey bee researchers are testing alternative antibiotics but the folks at the beltsville lab may need to hear from more beekeepers on the need for such a treatment. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim McGarry Subject: Re: Balled Queen Your introduction method sounds ok. I'm not sure about the mosquito netting though. I have introduced "valuable" queens (usuually artificially inseminated) using push-in cages made of #8 hardware cloth. The cages are about 3" by 4" by 3/4". I select a frame of brood that is beginning to emerge and hopefully there is a little bit of nectar nearby as well. The queen is released alone under the cage which is pushed into the brood area and put back into the colony for at least 3 or 4 days. Before I remove the cage, I check to see how the bees are behaving around and on the cage. If they appear to be biting at or trying to sting through the cage,back in she goes for another couple of days. ( I have not seen this happen after 3 or 4 days). Otherwise, I lift off the cage and observe the queen for a minute or so and particulaly how the bees react to her. I also give this colony a thin syrup of sugar water with a bit of Fumidil-B added. good luck ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 06:55:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gordon Zahorik Subject: Re: Inner Covers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cal, I agree except I flip the inner cover in the late fall. By that time the bees are no longer interested in building comb and it seems to provide better air flow to keep the moisture down over the winter. I slot the inner cover and have a half moon out of the outer cover so they have an opening at the top of the frames. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cal French" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 12:51 AM Subject: Inner Covers > I have noted recent discussion about comb building between the tops of > frames and the inner cover. The Dadant inner covers come with what I think > could be better instructions. Of the four reasonably possible ways to > build and install the covers, three are wrong: the *shallow* side of the > cover with the smooth side of the masonite needs to be down, facing the > tops of the frames. Someone named Experience came along to teach me that. > If the "deeper" side of the Dadant inner cover faces the tops of the > frames, there is a 15 mm space for bees to build comb you do not want. > Cal French, Central Coast of California ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 04:51:39 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Creosote bottom boards In-Reply-To: <200105111818.f4BIIZJ22751@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have never used creosote bottoms boards nor do I plan to in the future > but several beekeepers have wanted me to ask the list a question. Did you check the archives? There are over 50 references there and some look as if they might answer some of those questions. Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ to search. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:10:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Balled Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I was checking out a hive with an extremely valuable queen and found > her balled; badly balled ... Notwithstanding the cause of the balling ... > After two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive Barry, Seems to me you're TRYING to lose that valuable queen! You simply cannot not withstand the cause of the balling and may have hit the nail squarely on the head when you write after two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive. Why are you introducing a valuable queen into a rorring hive? Set up a samll nuc, one that you are absolutely sure is queenless, and introduce your valuable queen in the nuc! After she has been accepted in the nuc (say in a week or so) combine the nuc with the roaring hive. In the meantime, figure out why the roaring hive des not want your valuable queen or you will likely lose her when you combine the nuc. Chances are that you have overlooked a queen or queen cell and that's why the hive will not accept your new queen. Good luck, it's not fun paying for queen carnage! Cheers, Aaron PS: There's plenty in the archives on introducing queens. BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:03:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/01 10:52:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rspear@YAHOO.COM writes: << --- Marc Studebaker wrote: > I have always had good luck with the postal service. > Possably because we live in a small community. I live in a small community at the northern part of Los Angeles, and the post office has always called as soon as packaged bees arrive (on Sundays too!). I thought it was because they wanted those darned bees out of their building as soon as possible... >> Our post office has been extraordinarily careful too. And they call on Sunday, as well. It may be because it is a small town, and they get a quite a kick out of us nutty beekeepers. It might also stem from the day I told them there was a couple thousand dollars worth of bugs in that hummin' li'l box.... Dave Green SC USA Pollinator movie clips: http://hemingwaysouthcarolina.com/more_galleries.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:14:22 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Balled Queen In-Reply-To: <200105130303.f4D33MJ14338@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see you are in SA. According to Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, both Africanised queens and Africanised worker groups have been observed in the USA invading other hives, taking them over, and displacing the original queen. Could this be happening in the hive in question? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- No matter how cynical you get, it's impossible to keep up. > By sheer co-incidence, or luck, I was checking out a hive with an > extremely valuable queen and found her balled; badly balled. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:08:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HarrisonRW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess that it depends on the postal worker and their attitude at the individual post office. I live in a city of about 50,000. I ordered six queens from York last summer. The manager of the Post Office here in Milford called me up and asked what he should do with the queen package. He went as far as holding them in his air conditioned office unit I went down and got them. But around six years ago I had the same experience as Norm where the letter carrier just put the package in the mailbox on a 90 degree day. Regards, Ralph ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:16:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: American Foulbrood In-Reply-To: <200105131829.f4DITqJ28853@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bob, and everyone: Before I start: I very much appreciate the quality of the posts to BEE-L, and do not wish to start a thread on posting etiquette. I would rather that people feel encouraged to post to BEE-L than think we will quibble about the format beyond what is in the guidelines, BUT there is one thing that makes many otherwise excellent an well-written posts *very* hard to read and understand and I would ask one little favour of everyone. Please use clear quotation indicators for each writer quoted, and white space between different writers. I find that I often cannot tell who wrote what, and where one person's writing ends, and the author's begins when reading posts that include quotes. The ideas below are not my own, but stolen from netiquette articles and sites. The TINY changes in format outlined below can result in much better understanding I hope writers will employ them: 1.) Could everyone please either use just a '>' if the email software supports this or '>>>' at the beginning of a quoted paragraph and '>>>' at the end? Even a '"' at the beginning and end of paragraphs helps... 2.) Single blank lines like the ones above and below this paragraph help the reader's eye distinguish items in what is otherwise a jumble and allows easy skimming of the text. Please use them liberally, especially between quotes from different people and your own comments. 3.) using '---' on a new line as a separator helps separate sections that are unrelated. Like this: --- and now for the main event --- My AFRB comments follow interspaced: > For years in the U.S. treating with terramycin prevented the active AFB and > for the first time in the history of beekeeping the worst plague of > beekeeping was a non issue. I have been monitoring the problem over the last > four years and do see the AFB problem increasing. Keep a sharp lookout. ... > "Approximately 2.5 BILLION spores are produced in each infected larva." > "Spores can remain viable INDEFINETLY on beekeeping equipment" > "Spores of AFB germinate approx one day after ingestion by the larva" > "ONE spore is sufficient to infect a larva a day old after egg hatch" There is not much debate about these facts, however I am always concerned about the conclusions people reach from them. I've written lots before and will write again on the topic, but to do the topic the justice it deserves takes much more time than I can spare now. In short, my understanding is that there are bees that get AFB easily and those that don't. Hygienic behaviour is part of the resistance trait, but there are other factors. Since we seem to just about have AFB controlled in these hives that have hygienic queens, the next step is to stock select from the hives that show zero AFB in this obviously contaminated environment. Some bees CAN exist disease-free in yards severely polluted with AFB. As an inspector years ago, I've seen it with my own eyes. Now we must go the rest of the way and breed for this feature. ... > Allen, George and others could be right about the above. My opinion is we > are going to have to get another antibiotic registered quickly *before* the > problem gets larger. The beekeeper I work closest with uses the expensive > artificially inseminated hygienic breeder queens. He is still seeing a > increase in AFB. A new drug is just a stop-gap measure. Granted, it is necessary, but if beekeepers use it the same way as OTC, then the new drug will become useless someday too. Maybe someday soon. Drugs are part of an IPM approach to AFB, as are culling serious disease, hygienic queens, and breeding queens that mother larvae which are not easy to infect, but drugs are the least reliable, least permanent, most costly, and most subject to human error -- and the least acceptable to our customers and the public. IMHO, anyhow. Thanks for all the good posts lately bob. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:21:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Digger (by way of Research)" Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" --- Marc Studebaker wrote: > I have always had good luck with the postal service. > Possably because we live in a small community. I live in a small community at the northern part of Los Angeles, and the post office has always called as soon as packaged bees arrive (on Sundays too!). I thought it was because they wanted those darned bees out of their building as soon as possible... Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Allen Dick (by way of Research)" Subject: Re: Creosote bottom boards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > I have never used creosote bottoms boards nor do I plan to in the future > but several beekeepers have wanted me to ask the list a question. Did you check the archives? There are over 50 references there and some look as if they might answer some of those questions. Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ to search. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Aaron Morris (by way of Research)" Subject: Re: Balled Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > I was checking out a hive with an extremely valuable queen and found > her balled; badly balled ... Notwithstanding the cause of the balling ... > After two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive Barry, Seems to me you're TRYING to lose that valuable queen! You simply cannot not withstand the cause of the balling and may have hit the nail squarely on the head when you write after two hours, she went back into the (roaring) hive. Why are you introducing a valuable queen into a rorring hive? Set up a samll nuc, one that you are absolutely sure is queenless, and introduce your valuable queen in the nuc! After she has been accepted in the nuc (say in a week or so) combine the nuc with the roaring hive. In the meantime, figure out why the roaring hive des not want your valuable queen or you will likely lose her when you combine the nuc. Chances are that you have overlooked a queen or queen cell and that's why the hive will not accept your new queen. Good luck, it's not fun paying for queen carnage! Cheers, Aaron PS: There's plenty in the archives on introducing queens. BEE-L archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:21:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Blane White (by way of Research)" Subject: Re: American Foulbrood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Everyone, Bob asked: 1. Are the hygienic bees removing all but the most stubborn scale? 2. Is the amount of scale low because we are seeing the Terramycin resistant strain? 3. Why are we not finding the ropy stage if these hives died over the last winter. Are the hygienic bees removing the ropy stage? Is this really a good thing or is this spreading the disease even faster than in the old days when the bees simply quit using the AFB brood frame. In the *old days* the beekeeper would have to eventually notice the AFB problem as the number of frames the bees were ignoring built up. If what we are looking at IS the work of hygienic bees then the problem is becoming harder to detect until the final stages (in my opinion). Bob Ps. Keep in mind the two policies used by the majority of beekeepers for AFB are 1. cull & burn 2. treat with antibiotics and prevent the active disease leaving the spores. This option with Terramycin is fast disappearing. Hopefully a new antibiotic will be registered for AFB use in the U.S. before the smoke from burning AFB hives will be seen for miles. Questions: 1. Interesting observations regarding AFB scale in used equipment. The hygenic bees may also be preventing more scale by removing infected larvae before they can dry down to scale. For some reason they are not getting it all but if there is too much disease they can be overwhelmed by it so that could be part of the problem or as you suspect they may just not be able to remove some of the scale. Hygenic bees usually remove diseased larvae before they become infectious and long before they become scale. I have seen partially removed brood in hygenic colonies that were white with no visable disease at all but the bees were removing them. Couldn't tell why they were being removed but they were. One question here. Were these colonies killed by AFB or something else? If a colony dies from AFB there usually is lots of scale but if a colony that is resistant is dealing with the disease but still has a small amount of infected brood that isn't being removed and dies from something else you would expect to find little scale. Resistant bees can and sometimes do get AFB but will usually clean it up over a few weeks time. The colony is able to handle the some disease and clean it out over time but it does take some time and you may find a few cells of disease during this process. The other question is how much scale were they given? Even strongly hygenic colonies that are given a lot of scale can be overwhelmed by it. 2. No. TM resistant AFB produces plenty of scale - whole frames of it just like you used to see and it looks and smells like AFB. The only difference that one sees is it does not respond normally to TM. Even in properly treated colonies you will still see active AFB including ropey larvae and scale being produced. TM resistant AFB is not the reason for you only finding scattered scales. 3. I suspect you are not finding ropey larvae simply due to the timing - it has been too long for the larvae to remain in the ropey stage they have dried to scales. Again interesting observations. I think the hygenic stock will help with disease management but is not the total answer. Actually, most beekeepers will probably see more benefit from their resistance to chalkbrood. Chalkbrood causes economic losses to beekeepers by bleeding away hive populations. USDA honey bee researchers are testing alternative antibiotics but the folks at the beltsville lab may need to hear from more beekeepers on the need for such a treatment. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:59:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Creosote bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Did you check the archives? There are over 50 references there and some look as if they might answer some of those questions. Visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ to search. I do on many of my posts but didn't on the creosote post. Sorry. I find many of my friends want *me* to ask the list questions because either they don't own a computer or are *lurkers*. The Henry Harris cresote post answered my friends question completely. Thanks to Henry for the post. I will stick with the copper napth for my operation but miss the old penta. Bob Thinking there are remarkable similarities between varroa on bees and ticks on beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:50:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Balled queen saved! Hi All and Thanks for all the advice. The balled queen (she is highly "pedigreed" instrumentally inseminated AM scutellata) was moved on Sunday afternoon, caged in her roaring hive, some 20 metres. It was a bright sunny autumn day. Two hours later the hive was moved to another location 15m away. The field bees were caught in a new hive on the original stand and given a frame of young brood and eggs from another hive (to start queen cells), and three deep frames of honey. Going back to the hive with the caged queen, after the second move, all the bees were shaken onto the grass in front of the hive, with the caged queen on the entrance board. When most bees were in the hive, the queen was released on the top bars and was immediately re-accepted. I watched her on the combs for about an hour, and then installed three deep frames of honey in the hive. She was there at 9am this morning and just fine and at 4pm, when I checked her again, she had laid eggs. I saw here lay one, as well. What a relief! Anyhow, tomorrow she travels to my queen apiary near Piet Retief, where her worker can feast on that most fantastic of flows, Eucalyptus Grandis. In summary: the balled queen was saved by caging, and effectively creating a nuc (of her own bees) by moving the hive twice. The latter manipulations effectively expelled all the agressive field bees. No specialised equipment was needed beyond the queen cage. Egg laying has commenced, with the queen having full range of all combs. Field bees were "sacrified" and the hive was thus installed with plenty of honey. As to the reason for the balling, that remains a mystery, but was most certainly not another scut queen/swarm. Drifting is perhaps the best guess. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:51:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Last Minute Reminder to Register for EAS 2001! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've been so busy that time has slipped without my having posted a plug for the Eastern Apicultural Society conference this summer on Cape Cod. Please surf to: http://www.capecod.com/bcba/eas2001.html if you want to slip in under the early registration wire. EAS conferences have been a big part of my summers for the past few years. Attending is its own reward. I have not the time right now to write words to do it justice. I'll steal a few paragraphs from the URL above and encourage anyone interested to act quickly and plan to attend. "The Registration form is now available. Please see the Registration Page. Registration forms must be postmarked by May 15, 2001 to avoid the assessment of a late registration fee. Availability of meals, on-campus lodging, tours, etc. may be limited for those who register late. Also, speaker profiles for most of our presenters are now available in the Programs section. It's not too early to start planning for EAS 2001, at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy (MMA) in Buzzards Bay, MA. The beautiful MMA campus is surrounded on three sides by water and only one-hour driving time from either T.F. Green Airport (PVD) in Providence, RI or Logan International Airport (BOS) in Boston, MA. Cape Cod is a wonderful place to host an EAS Short Course and Conference. Planning is well underway to make it an unforgettable experience for all who attend. Watch for periodic updates to this web site and in the EAS Journal. The Eastern Apicultural Society of North America was established in 1955 with the purpose of promoting honey bee culture, the education of beekeepers, and excellence in bee research. Every summer, EAS conducts its annual conference in one of its 22 member States/Provinces. About 500 people, from around the world, attend this conference every year. The Annual Short Course and Conference in the Summer of the year 2001 will be held at the Massachusetts Maritime Academy, in Buzzards Bay, MA, the week of August 6-10...." For the rest of the story, surf there, register QUICKLY, and attend. Hope to see you there! Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:14:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Queen Cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everyone, Hope all is well. Boy do I have a couple of questions- Last fall I combined 2 very light hives with no expectations of result surviving the winter. This spring, how, I don't know, the hive was still alive, though not the population was very low. I fed with the intention of adding some brood to boost the hive. When the weather finally warmed enough to examine the hive, there was no queen and the hive was roaring so I just let it alone as requeening would not do much good with so few bees. With the intention of splitting the other hive in the I have in my back yard, I went in to clean out the equipment of the small hive that by now I thought had died out. I had seen no bees flying for several days. When I opened it there were still bees and no roaring. I started removing frames and low and behold there was a queen cell. I have NO idea where the egg came from. Worse than that, I damaged the cell when I removed the adjacent frame. When I returned all back to the hive, I replace the frames where they were, carefully putting the broken parts of the cell back together. Will the bees mend this cell and save the queen? Also, where did the egg come from? I suppose I could have missed eggs from the first inspection, but there was NO other brood and there were so few bees, I am sure I would have seen her. Really strange! Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:59:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Bartlett Subject: Bee swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a nice bee story.=20 After returning home from checking some outyards, my wife informed me = that there had been a swarm from one of my hives. She knew the sound; = the loud hum or buzz. She tried to see where they went but she lost = them. Later that day one of my neighbors spotted the bees up in a tree = about a half block from my hives. He said that he thought they were mine = or at least I would be interested. They were off to the side of the road = at the edge of the woods pretty far up the tree.=20 I remember many years ago when I used to go on swarm calls. They never = seemed to come when I was prepared nor did this one. My daughter was in = New York; in the hospital; in labor and we were leaving early the next = morning to be there for the big event. What to do? After thinking about = it for awhile I decided to give it a try. After having lost so many bees = to mites and the price of getting a package of bees, I thought I would = be ahead if I could get this swarm. And it had been a long time since I = had been on a swarm call even if this one was mine. I tried to think about all the things I had read, heard and practiced = over the years about how to get swarms. First I knew it was high in the = tree so I got my large step ladder and my 7 foot (extendable to 14) tree = trimmer. What else? I remembered that I have carried a sheet in my big = bee equipment box for over 10 years and only used it once without = success. I also remember reading that if you use a frame of uncapped = brood inside an otherwise empty hive the the swarm would not leave once = they were in the hive. Up to the tree I went with all my stuff loaded = onto my truck. I put on my big rubber boots and tramped down all the = honeysuckle and briars and spread my sheet out underneath the swarm. I = placed the hive with a frame of brood (capped) on the sheet and back = from where I thought the swarm would fall when I jerked the branch they = were on. With everything all set to go, I climbed the ladder, put the pruner on = the branch and gave a big jerk. Down they came. Most landing on the = sheet. So far so good! Bees were flying all over now. All over me and = flying back to the branch I had just jerked. I watched as the first few = bees walked up the sheet and into the hive entrance. Soon there were = more than I could count heading to the hive. I tried to watch for the = Queen but did not see her. There was now a big ball of bees again on the = branch so up the ladder again with the prunner and with another jerk = they fell to the sheet. Soon there were a few hundred bees with their = abdomens stuck up in the air fanning their Nassanof gland and putting = off a scent to tell all the other bees that this was the place to come.=20 I went home after most of the bees were in the hive. I waited until dark = and went up the road with my wheel barrow. All the bees were in the = hive. None flying around. I put the hive into the wheel barrow and went = home. Post Script: The bees are fine! Mother and baby fine! Baby girl; Sydney = Lynn; 7lbs. 13 ozs. 20 1/2 inches. I am the proud Grandfather of several thousand = little girls and one very special little girl. Bill Bartlett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:52:26 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/14/01 1:26:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, HarrisonRW@AOL.COM writes: << I live in a city of about 50,000. I ordered six queens from York last summer. The manager of the Post Office here in Milford called me up and asked what he should do with the queen package. He went as far as holding them in his air conditioned office unit I went down and got them. But around six years ago I had the same experience as Norm where the letter carrier just put the package in the mailbox on a 90 degree day. >> This could be a function of where you got the queens as well. I ordered two queens about 3 weeks ago. One from Southern Ga the other from California. The one from Ga had DO NOT DELIVER stamped on it so the P.O. called me, the one from Ca didn't so they delivered it--luckly to the door. TIM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:22:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Blane & All, Blane asks: > One question here. Were these colonies killed by AFB or something> > else? If a colony dies from AFB there usually is lots of scale but> > if a colony that is resistant is dealing with the disease but still> > has a small amount of infected brood that isn't being removed and> > dies from something else you would expect to find little scale.> Actually the cause of death varied between still using *Apistan* and AFB (in my opinion). The Varroa resistant to fluvalinate killed colonies created the PMS frames. The beekeeper thought those were AFB. 75% of the frames were AFB infected. None were typical with the whole oval pattern having sunken perferated caps, strong smell or ropey. > Resistant bees can and sometimes do get AFB but will usually clean it> > up over a few weeks time. The colony is able to handle the some> > disease and clean it out over time but it does take some time and you> > may find a few cells of disease during this process.> Explain what you mean when you say *clean it up*. Do we know what happens to these lifetime viable spores? Are they placed outside the hive entrance? stored in honey during the honey flow? This was the sad part. We were melting first year comb, in many cases on new frames, with Dadant plasticell. These beekeepers are seeing AFb the last two years after treatment with Terramycin. I have not said the exact way these beekeepers are handling the problem on purpose. Each beekeeper has his own way of doing things. Beekeepers for the most part are private people and are set in their ways. My fellow beekeepers let me share their everyday problems with the list as long as I don't use their names. In my opinion only the best of the beekeepers are left. The mites and other problems have eleminated the rest. I sincerely thank those beekeepers belonging to the Midwestern Beekeepers assn. which allow me to talk about their problems in hopes of helping other beekeepers. I like to word the post so only the beekeeper involved will know I am talking about their problem. Twice in the last decade I had years with high losses and allways willing to talk about why my colonies died. After you repopulate over 50% of your colonies you become a better beekeeper and try harder to prevent history from repeating itself. > > 2. No. TM resistant AFB produces plenty of scale - whole frames of> > it just like you used to see and it looks and smells like AFB. The> > only difference that one sees is it does not respond normally to TM.> > Even in properly treated colonies you will still see active AFB> > including ropey larvae and scale being produced. TM resistant AFB is> > not the reason for you only finding scattered scales.> Thanks Blane for the input. I believe we are seeing hygienic bees in action. > 3. I suspect you are not finding ropey larvae simply due to the> > timing - it has been too long for the larvae to remain in the ropey> > stage they have dried to scales.> We allways used to find ropey in the days before hygienic bees. The ropey material was *in my opinion* what caused the strong smell. > USDA honey bee researchers are testing alternative antibiotics but> > the folks at the beltsville lab may need to hear from more beekeepers> > on the need for such a treatment.> We were after Dr. Shiminuki before his retirement to come up with a registered systemic treatment for AFB. Now I will settle for any registered treatment. From a larger beekeepers standpoint all meds should be systemic. Fill up their feeders like *pumping gas in the car* and end of mites,AFb and starvation all at once. Wishfull thinking right! Bob PS I believe from this series of posts we all need to push for another registered product for AFB. Bring up the subject at bee meetings and when talking to researchers! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:54:55 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Balled Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry, Speaking of a "roaring" hive, could you describe this better. The main time I have had a hive I would refer to as roaring, it had been queenless for some time. I have noticed some extra effort required to deal with a hopelessly queenless colony and that could, in addition to some of the other comments, be what you are seeing. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 19:53:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: FYI: Bees pass cognitive tests usually given to apes and people... In-Reply-To: <200105141215.f4ECF5J19432@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Dave Green > What's Buzzin' in My Garden? http://pollinator.com/Identify/whatsbuzzin.htm This is an excellent website! Great photos and descriptions. I was able to identify the mason bees a lady called me about a couple of weeks ago. Thanks! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:30:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: American Foulbrood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane, I ALWAYS like your concise deduction of problems. You make things that are difficult for some people to understand so simple! A nice talent! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:17:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: how to identify mean hive? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matt, I wish I had a good answer for you, but I don't. However, you said Starlines or derivatives, and the "derivatives" might be your problem. The Starline is a HYBRID, developed by Dadant's Bud Cale. A hybrid is man-made, not a race; and hence cannot reproduce itself. A colony must be continuously requeened with a "man-made" Starline hybrid, bred by a specific queen breeder. Geneticists have shown over and over that when a daughter of a hybrid queen gets bred by any drone, the "bad points" like aggressiveness usually comes forth in spades and the "good points" tend to disappear. This is one of the reasons many beekeepers just don't want much to do with any hybrids, regardless of whether they are Starlines, Midnites, or Buckfast. I did not say that this IS your problem, but I say it MAY be your problem. I hope that I have helped. George Imirie Certified Master Beekeeper Beginning my 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:18:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Last Minute Reminder to Register for EAS 2001! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, You did a good job. EAS should thank you. For the first time in over 30 years, I will miss EAS this year. I have a conflict of dates with my county 9 day long FAIR where I put on 4 demonstrations each day of opening hives of live bees, finding the queen, dragging her out and displaying her to the large crowds that watch while I am dressed only in shoes, shorts, Tee-shirt and NO VEIL. I do this to prove that honey bees are not aggressive, and try to remove the fear of the public about bees that have been brought on by wild Hollywoodized movies about "killer bees". Please tell all my friends why I am absent. Thanks! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:41:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "john f. mesinger" Subject: Re: U.S. Postal Service In-Reply-To: <200105141459.f4EExOJ24932@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I also have always alerted my local post office that queens were expected and was called at 7:30 AM each time but the last. Mailed on Wed from CA, they always came Saturday AM. This time they did not call and reported nothing had come in when they closed at 11. At 1pm, the airport postoffice station attendant called me they were there and a 15 mile trip by me prevented them from being in-house until monday. At least with Bees, I have had no complaints regarding USPO. John F. Mesinger jfm6f@unix.mail.virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:30:56 -0400 Reply-To: adamf@Radix.Net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Resent-From: adamf@Radix.Net Comments: Originally-From: adamf@Radix.Net From: adamf@RADIX.NET Subject: SEARCH newsgroup articles and bee-l email on one site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Folks--I realize it's a little late, but the search engine is back up on http://www.ibiblio.org/bees -- The Internet Apicultural and Beekeeping Archive. It used to be: http://metalab.unc.edu/bees There you'll find a fairly primitive but working search engine, and almost all the newsgroup article, and bee-l postings up to date. (I'll get the last several months tonight). Sincerely, Adam -- Adam Finkelstein adamf@radix.net http://www.ibiblio.org/bees/adamf