From MAILER-DAEMON@trance.metalab.unc.edu Sun Jun 17 09:21:54 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by trance.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5HDLrn11183 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:21:53 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5HDJWP04142 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200106171319.f5HDJWP04142@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:19:32 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0105D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 112550 Lines: 2556 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 05:50:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "KAMRAN F FAKHIMZADEH (MMSEL)" Organization: University of Helsinki Subject: Re: sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <200105181441.f4IEfDJ05658@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear all; I was following your discussion, however, I was too busy to answer them sooner. >Dave wrote: >Hi Aaron and all, >I read it as using the powdered sugar as the control >and not just detection. Dave read it right. The title of my PhD thesis is " Detection of major mite pests of Apis mellifera and development of non-chemical control of varroasis". In my detection method I did not use powdery sugar, as my method have higher detection efficiency, for more information see http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/detection_varroa.htm Allen Dick said: > When dusting with OTC in icing sugar, we were > always cautioned to be careful not to get the dust > over the brood area, since we were told that the > sugar would fall down and dust into open brood -- > and kill it. OTC is toxic not only to brood, but to bees also. Hence, it is recommended to dissolve the OTC to 4 -5 litter of sugar when possible. Allen wrote: > Have you seen any effect on the *open* brood? Yes, there is no adverse effect on colony growth. So it can not be fetal to open brood. I have published the effect of dusting on colony growth in my dissertation that consists of eight articles and the thesis, a total of 110 pages. Two dozen of this book are available for the most interested beekeepers/ scientific library for 15 $ (fifteen USD Airmail included). You may send your request to me directly till the end of this month. During June I will not be available. Best regards Kamran ------------------------------------------------ Dr. Kamran Fakhimzadeh Department of Applied Biology P. O. Box 27 00014- Universtity of Helsinki Tel. +358 40 55 36 791 (Mobile) Tel. +358 9 191 58393 Fax. +358 9 191 58463 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:18:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <200105212138.f4LLc6J24548@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm confused about that. A tiny amount of sugar will kill larvae? > How can sugar alone (no OTC or other stuff) be fatal to larvae, > given that similar sugars are present in their "brood food"? Don't know. I usta believe everything I was told. Now I just believe whatever feels good . > Looks like I need to finish up that observation hive that I have > been tinkering with to see for myself... That's the best way. Please let us know. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 08:51:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <200105220951.f4M9pKJ12559@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have published the effect of > dusting on colony growth in my dissertation that consists of eight > articles and the thesis, a total of 110 pages.... Thanks for bringing this promising control method to the attention of the group. For those of us who are only interested in the practical details of how to do the control, is there a web page that gives the method? If not, and you would be welcome to post an article here on BEE-L or -- if it is long and has pictures and charts -- I would be glad to set up a web page to feature the method if you email it to me direct. As an example, Adony sent me an article the other day on the hygienic bee project in Alberta and a page for it is now near completion at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/hygienic.htm allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID that he just whipped out a quarter? -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:33:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Chinese grafting instrument I am trying to find a (any) supplier of a grafting instrument evidently sourced originally from China. It is distinctive, with part of the shaft of a bird's feather at the tip, a small rounded wood dowel just behind that, and a spring in the shaft (to return the wooden point after it has been pushed). I would prefer an Internet listing, to facilitate ordering and shipping. Any ideas? Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:11:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Chinese grafting instrument Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This sounds like the common chinese grafting tool .. see several suppliers like BetterBee Dave > with part of the shaft of a >bird's feather at the tip, a small rounded wood dowel just behind that, >and a spring in the shaft (to return the wooden point after it has been >pushed). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:24:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Moye Subject: Re: Liquid Nitrogen Safety Comments: cc: bogansrj@apci.com In-Reply-To: <200105211933.f4LJXcJ19323@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I would like to thank Ronald for posting IMPORTANT safety issues concerning the handling of liquid nitrogen. I mentioned earlier in a post that it could be transported in a Thermos. The big issue that I did not discuss is you should provide a vent. Sealing a Thermos to transport liquid nitrogen could result in an explosive situation. You should bore a hole through the entire cap to provide a means for escape of the nitrogen gas. --- "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." wrote: > There are two major hazards associated with LIN ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Dragonflies Hi All. Now the summer is (hopefully) upon us at last, this seems an opportune moment to ask whether anyone has actually seen a dragonfly catch or kill a bee. I have been able to find references to only two British species, Anax imperator and Aeschna cyanea, taking bees. Both are large and powerful flyers, solitary and territorial away from water, and thus unlikely to pose a significant threat. Their main diet consists of flies, including large numbers of mosquitoes. Large assemblies of dragonflies have been noted in some species, and obviously numbers will gather by the wateside at times. As far as I can discover, however, their reputation as bee-eaters is probably unjustified. If anyone has seen otherwise, it would be good to hear from them to settle the matter. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:36:29 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Gillette Subject: Re: Dragonflies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I became a new beekeeper last summer here in Fairbanks Alaska. I observed on numerous occasions dragonflies flitting around my hives looking as if they wanted to catch bees. I never did actually see one catch a bee but did see one fleeing from a pursuing bee or two. Lance Gillette ______________________________________________________ Lance Gillette Bibliographic Access Management Elmer E. Rasmuson Library University of Alaska Fairbanks Tel. (907) 474-7206 Email: FNLDG1@uaf.edu Fax. (907) 474-5068 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 20:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky boehm Subject: ultrasound and bees Hello all on the list, I have a question pertaining to the use of the ultrasound insect repellers designed to use in the home. I also use them in the honey equipment storage area for cricket control (seems to work ok) and was wondering if anyone has any experience with them in close proximity to a colony of bees? Maybe next to an oberservation hive? I realize that bees dont hear but was wondering if one of these devices would confuse or otherwise effect them. Any input would be appreciated. thanks in advance Al Boehm Columbus N C USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:24:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/22/01 5:29:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RSBrenchley@AOL.COM writes: << Now the summer is (hopefully) upon us at last, this seems an opportune moment to ask whether anyone has actually seen a dragonfly catch or kill a bee. I have been able to find references to only two British species, Anax imperator and Aeschna cyanea, taking bees. >> So far I have not actually seen a dragonfly take a bee-and I have a bunch in my yard. However I have watched a large "yellow Jacket" colored hornet, (my brother in law calls them wood hornets) run of with a couple. This was before I used a badminton racket on it. TIM MORRIS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: Bob & Pat Fanning Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Pat Fanning Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I realize that bees dont hear ...... I was under the impression that bees do detect sounds with an organ in each of their antenna called the Johnston's organ. I understood that this is how they detect the wag-tail dance information (distance and direction) in the near pitch darkness of a beehive. Is this different from a bee actually hearing or am I all wet and off base with my understanding of how they actually perceive sound? I post this response seeking enlightenment, not to offer any statement of fact. Bob Fanning Huntsville, Alabama USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 21:07:03 -0800 Reply-To: thfofc@gci.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Steve Victors Subject: Re Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert and All, Last summer while sitting on my fathers deck I had a dragonfly land on my shoulder and finish eating one of my honeybees. I presume that he caught it himself... Steve Victors Big Lake, Alaska It probably wanted something smaller than one of our mosquitos. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:51:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Yes, I have seen dragonflies catch and kill bees. But, I don't think they prey upon large numbers of them. Mostly after flies and such. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:31:24 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Yes. I have seen a dragonfly take a bee about five years ago. I had seen dragonflies darting about in several bee yards and suspected they were catching bees. One day I was watching the bees flying with the late afternoon sun behind me so the bees were easy to see when I saw a = dragonfly make a bee-line for a worker bee that was flying away from me. I had a = front row seat and could see every detail of the attack. Like watching a fast attack plane come from the blind rear of another plane. It was the only = time I ever saw such an event but the dragonfly did the deed so easily and efficiently that I can only assume that dragonflies do catch and eat = many bees. Couldn't even guess at the species name, sorry. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Ca. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Morris" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Dragonflies > In a message dated 5/22/01 5:29:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > RSBrenchley@AOL.COM writes: > > << Now the summer is (hopefully) upon us at last, this seems an = opportune > moment to ask whether anyone has actually seen a dragonfly catch or = kill a > bee. I have been able to find references to only two British species, Anax > imperator and Aeschna cyanea, taking bees. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:04:02 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I see a good many dragonflies darting about in my apiary. I have not seen a bee caught, but I do expect it happens otherwise the dragonflies would not put in the effort. This is one of natures subtle control mechanisms... Diseased or parasitised bees are more likely to be caught. This is to the benefit of the bees as well as food for the dragonflies. The stronger and fitter dragonflies will be more succesful and that is of benefit to the dragonflies. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 05:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "KAMRAN F FAKHIMZADEH (MMSEL)" Organization: University of Helsinki Subject: Re: sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <200105221627.f4MGRIJ21969@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Allen and all The details of 1) The impact of dusting on the development of the colonies, and 2) The impact of sugar dusting on the individual bees after treating them with CO2 and sugar ARE SUBMITTED TO the scientific journals in the form of two articles for publication. Allen wrote: >For those of us who are only interested in the >practical details of how to do the control, is there >a web page that gives the method? The method of dusting colonies are given in the American Bee Journal (June 2000) section of Apicultural research. Dusting sample of adult bees and the effect on their respiratory system is given in Apidologie 2001(2). As these Journals have the copyright of these articles you have to find the article and read it from the Journal. I do not have time now to write a new article for Bee-L but perhaps after a few months. Best regards Kamran--------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Kamran Fakhimzadeh Department of Applied Biology P. O. Box 27 00014- Universtity of Helsinki Tel. +358 40 55 36 791 (Mobile) Tel. +358 9 191 58393 Fax. +358 9 191 58463 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:12:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Dragonflies In-Reply-To: <200105222128.f4MLSUJ03395@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now the summer is (hopefully) upon us at last, this seems an opportune > moment to ask whether anyone has actually seen a dragonfly catch or kill a > bee. The question has been asked several times in the logs (Search for dragon fly and check the substring box) at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ >From what I saw in my search (I skimmed quickly) no one admits to actually having seen a dragonfly catch a bee. Maybe we will get a report this time from someone who has seen one in the act? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary. -- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:52:13 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees In-Reply-To: <200105230024.f4N0OfJ09096@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Al Boehm wrote: >I realize that bees dont hear This widely-believed factoid seems to have been based on failure to discover any organ of hearing. That failure does not prove the animal can't hear; it is a minor classic in the arrogance of science. I will simply assert that the behaviour of a typical colony early in an ordinary inspection strongly suggests to me that the animal can hear (as one would expect in a house with such low light levels, notwithstanding the superior sense of smell which must also be very useful in there). And wasn't bees' hearing established scientifically a half-decade ago? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:28:33 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Yes. I have seen a dragonfly take a bee about five years ago. I had seen = dragonflies darting about in several bee yards and suspected they were = catching bees. One day I was watching the bees flying with the late = afternoon sun behind me so the bees were easy to see when I saw a = dragonfly make a bee-line for a worker bee that was flying away from me. = I had a front row seat and could see every detail of the attack. Like = watching a fast attack plane come from the blind rear of another plane. = It was the only time I ever saw such an event but the dragonfly did the = deed so easily and efficiently that I can only assume that dragonflies = do catch and eat many bees. Couldn't even guess at the species name, = sorry. Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Ca. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Morris" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: Re: Dragonflies > In a message dated 5/22/01 5:29:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > RSBrenchley@AOL.COM writes: > > << Now the summer is (hopefully) upon us at last, this seems an = opportune > moment to ask whether anyone has actually seen a dragonfly catch or = kill a > bee. I have been able to find references to only two British species, Anax > imperator and Aeschna cyanea, taking bees. >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:17:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees In-Reply-To: <200105230024.f4N0OZJ09074@listserv.albany.edu>; from beckwards@JUNO.COM on Tue, May 22, 2001 at 08:03:43PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 08:03:43PM -0400, Becky boehm wrote: > Hello all on the list, > I have a question pertaining to the use of the ultrasound insect > repellers designed to use in the home. I also use them in the honey > equipment storage area for cricket control (seems to work ok) and was > wondering if anyone has any experience with them in close proximity to a > colony of bees? Maybe next to an oberservation hive? > I realize that bees dont hear but was wondering if one of these devices > would confuse or otherwise effect them. Any input would be appreciated. > thanks in advance I would be surprised if they had any effect on bees, seeing as how (as far as I've been able to find out) there is no documented evidence that they work on the things they are supposed to repel in the first place. The manufacturers have nothing but anecdotal evidence that they have any effect at all (everything I've seen amounts to customers saying "well, they seem to work OK". Of course, the manufacturers would never publish the irritated letters from people who say they don't work at all, so anecdotes like that, published by the manufacturer, can hardly help being biased). This in spite of the fact that it seems like a perfectly easy thing to check. Just set up two areas where the only difference is whether there is an ultrasonic repeller or not, run for a while, and count vermin. The ease of the check, and the lack of any published results from such checks, quite frankly reeks of fraud to me. This is one of those things that a lot of people would really like to have if it worked, and you can bet that any unequivocal evidence that they *did* work would be trumpeted from the rooftops, not hidden so deeply that my three years of periodic literature searches would be unable to find it. I've heard that the EPA tested a number of ultrasonic repellers, and found that they had no effect on any of the tested vermin. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the actual results of that study, so I can't say how comprehensive it might be. However, the Federal Trade Commission is convinced that at least one ultrasonic pest repeller is a fraud, see: http://www.ftc.gov/opa/predawn/F86/sagaintl.htm for their judgement against Saga International and their "Home Free" ultrasonic repeller. I'd really like to find that hypothetical EPA study, of course, but as it stands I'd say that if you assume that all the electronic insect repellers on the market are fraudulent, you won't be far wrong. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:49:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: CHINESSE GRAFTING TOOL Mann Lake catalog shows these on page 20 of their catalog for $3.95. Doubt they are on web site at wwwmannlakeltd.com. 800-880-7694. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:52:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I live on a lake with many types of dragon flies. Because I was raising Queens at this place I checked as many of the possible problems of losing a virgin queen. I used a water gun with soap in it to gather dragon flies(certified dragon slaugher). I didn't found any bees in the stomach. I have Great Crested flychatchers nesting, Balitmore Orales, Kingfisher, Wood Thrush, Purple Martins, Swifts, many varieties of wood peckers and Wood Ducks with babies all that are bug eaters. I will gladly give up a few bees to get rid of the misquetos. The bass (size of the Loch Ness monster) in the lake love the bees in the water. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 07:21:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Interesting thread. A patent has been applied for a ultrasound instrument which kills mosquito larva. Hope is it will replace pesticides and help in control of West Nile Virus. . A young student named Michael discovered the ultrasound killed the misquito larva while working on his science project for school. Michael and his Dad were interviewed on "The Early Show" today May 23,2001. I believe I have got the details correct but was fixing breakfast and not devoting my full attention to the show. Hopefully others which watched the program might comment. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 06:55:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Al Boehm wrote: >I realize that bees dont hear Robert Mann added: > This widely-believed factoid seems to have been based on > failure to discover any organ of hearing.... Whether bees hear or not has been a topic of discussion several times on this list. I recall some newbie taking Dave Green to task over making a statement about bees hearing an approaching thunderstorm. Although bees do not have ear drums (hence they don't "hear" in a manner similar to human hearing), bees DEFINITELY are able to detect the vibrations of sound waves and can interpret them in a manner that can be described as "hearing". Bees hear. There is no doubt. Aaron Morris - thinking if bees don't hear then why do queens pipe? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:09:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees In-Reply-To: <200105231445.f4NEixJ28823@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Although bees do not have ear drums (hence they don't "hear" in a > manner similar to human hearing), bees DEFINITELY are able to detect > the vibrations of sound waves and can interpret them in a manner > that can be described as "hearing". Bees hear. There is no doubt. What I want to know is this: can bees see in the darkness of the hive? We know they cannot see well enough to navigate effectively on the wing at night, but do they have a sense of what is near them in the hive interior, and if so, how far does that sense extend? allen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:45:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Request for educational assistance I hope someone in the Mass/RI area can help this person. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eleanor Monis" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:08 AM Subject: supplies > Hi, > I'm teaching an elementary class this summer about honey bees. The unit > requires some supplies: Dead bees; > bee frames with honey, pollen, bee eggs, larvae, and pupae > several empty pieces of honeycomb > Do you carry these items or know of where I might get these in the RI > area? I would appreciate any info. you may have. Thanks, Laura > caseycoco@yahoo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:14:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Sounds and bees Comments: cc: k4vb@HiWAAY.net, ckstarr99@hotmail.com, phwells@earthlink.net, wstansfi@calpoly.edu, PayneT@missouri.edu, tpaine@ucrac1.ucr.edu, Vredma@PLANT3.AGRIC.ZA, gary.greenberg@wichita.edu, barry@birkey.com, aczarnecka@um.opole.pl, JoTraynor@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear BEE-L subscribers, Bob Fanning replied, in response to a comment by Becky Boehm ("I realize that bees don't hear"): ********** >I was under the impression that bees do detect sounds with an organ in each >of their antenna called the Johnston's organ. I understood that this is >how they detect the wag-tail dance information (distance and direction) in >the near pitch darkness of a beehive. Is this different from a bee >actually hearing or am I all wet and off base with my understanding of how >they actually perceive sound? ********** In the early 1960s I conducted a great deal of research on bee sounds and found that bees do "hear" sounds conducted through the substrate (vibrations). Actually, there is little physical difference between sound waves transmitted through the substrate or through air. Sounds travel faster and further through solid substances than through air. That is why as children we would press our ears to a railroad rail to hear if a train might be coming before daring to cross a trestle. My background in beekeeping, electronics, and physics helped in that study and led to one of my first publications (1963, in SCIENCE magazine): "Communication with queen honey bees by substrate sound." The editor of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN then invited me to write an article for that magazine, which I did in 1964 ("Sound communication in honey bees"). Thanks to Barry Birkey, one can find that article as item #4 in my portion of his website: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm Initially, I had the same impression as Bob Fanning and tried to "prove" (as a believer in bee "language" then) that transmission of distance and direction information during the waggle dance was by means of sounds rather than by vision, since hives are normally really dark inside. The story then got complicated, once we re-discovered the overriding importance of odor during honey bee recruitment to crops. (Von Frisch early on had insisted that to be the case --- see item #1B on the website.) Those interested in the history of my "conversion" away from belief in bee "language" to a confidence that an odor explanation suffices can read item #1A on the website. Items #24, 25, and 26 on the website (three 1998 articles in the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL) summarize my current position on the matter of bee recruitment to food crops. One can also find a more technical invited review article on the subject as item #15 on the website ("Recruitment, search behavior, and flight ranges of honey bees"). Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The [scientist] within the [research club] is never, or hardly * ever, conscious of the prevailing thought style, which almost * always exerts an absolutely compulsive force upon his thinking * and with which it is not possible to be at variance." * * Ludwik Fleck (1935; 1979) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 21:16:09 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Becky boehm wrote > I realize that bees dont hear but was wondering if one of these devices > would confuse or otherwise effect them. Any input would be appreciated. This is anecdotal... but a neighbour of one of my apiaries has an ultrasonic rat repeller in his loft. Several years ago a swarm entered the loft, then went berserk swarming out of the loft, into the house and to the garden, and numerous bees died. He claims that the rat repeller, which is motion sensitive, and cycles through various frequencies, drove the bees mad. That really is for whatever it's worth, if anyone is seriously interested I'll try find out frequencies etc. What do the bees in your extracting room do ? If they don't hear why do we talk to them? John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:30:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees In-Reply-To: <200105231758.f4NHw2J06165@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > We know they cannot see well enough to navigate effectively on the wing at > night, but do they have a sense of what is near them in the hive interior, and > if so, how far does that sense extend? > > allen To me, the answer to this question should have direct relevance on the von Frisch theory that a waggle dance gives the bees precise directions to a nectar source by the angle the bee dances. If bees can't see in the dark, then this would all the more support the idea of Adrian Wenner and associates that odor is the focus of a waggle dance, not sight. -Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:58:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Aaron Morris - thinking if bees don't hear then why do queens pipe? so the other bees can detect the vibrations through their feet on the wood. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:04:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Hello All, > Interesting thread. > A patent has been applied for a ultrasound instrument which kills mosquito > larva. Hope is it will replace pesticides and help in control of West Nile > Virus. . A young student named Michael discovered the ultrasound killed the > misquito larva I saw the TV spot also - Of course the ultrasound killed mosq. larvae at the distances and power used - what they didn't mention is that it has to be quite close. Hardly the cure for the New Jersey swamps. A household blender would also kill mosq. larvae. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:14:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Pat Fanning wrote: > >I realize that bees dont hear ...... > Is this different from a bee > actually hearing (?) (Before everybody jumps me) My understanding is that bees detect vibrations in the same way a "stone-deaf" person can detect a car engine being on or off when they are sitting in it. Would you all call that "hearing"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 05:55:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Advise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have brood in one of my supers what do I need to do? A queen excluder was not used. Thanks, Rodney In VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:47:10 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all We are in danger of ascribing human values of sight and hearing to bees. They have sensitivities in areas that we humans do not. They have sensitivity in the region of electromagnetic radiation that we call the "visible" spectrum but it does not coincide with our range, they see no red but can see UV & IR. We see the interior of a hive as "Dark" but infra red penetates wood to a certain degree and would illuminate the interior with infra red light (during daylight). We see bees propolise a mesh vent in a coverboard which is itself kept dark by a roof... yet when they need ventilation they "know" where the holes are because they will unblock them. (this may be infra red but I am guessing). Fish have a good idea of what is around them by electrostatic and electromagnetic field detection (lateral line). Bees may be able to "visualise" their environment by smell... we do not consider these as "sight" but they serve the same purpose... that of making the subject "aware" of its surroundings. Bees may not see or hear what we do but thay are able to make good sense out of the information that they do receive. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 08:13:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Advise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, > I have brood in one of my supers what do I need to do? A queen excluder was > not used. reply: Wait till it hatches. Sounds like your brood nest is plugged. Reverse the two bottom boxes to get queen on bottom of hive again. Or if plugged out with honey remove a frame and add a empty one. The queen should take to it like a magnet. I use three brood chambers(deep) which usually ensures the queen has ample room. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:40:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave Bees have about the same response range as us .. shifted to the Ultraviolet .. thus they see red and frequencies beyond as black .. thus IR would be black as well and this doesn't ring true. Dave >they see no red but can see UV & IR. > >We see the interior of a hive as "Dark" but infra red penetates wood to a >certain degree and would illuminate the interior with infra red light >(during daylight). > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 07:11:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" John Edwards wrote: > (Before everybody jumps me) My understanding is that bees detect > vibrations in the same way a "stone-deaf" person can detect a car > engine being on or off when they are sitting in it. Would you all > call that "hearing"? Actually I was going to jump on John when he wrote: >> if bees don't hear then why do queens pipe? > so the other bees can detect the vibrations through their feet on > the wood. but I decided he was pulling my leg just a bit. But yes, I would call that hearing. Now I'm off to Webster's to see what he says. hearing: n 1a : the process, function or power of perceiving sound So, YES, I call that hearing. Hearing does not take place in the eardrum in humans or the antenna or feet in bees, hearing (the perception of sound) takes place in the brain! Bees hear. "Stone-deaf" people hear, just not with their ears. Blind people see and read with their hands. Regardless how the input arrives, the senses take place in the brain! Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to skin a cat! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:45:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lipscomb, Al" Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > To me, the answer to this question should have direct > relevance on the von > Frisch theory that a waggle dance gives the bees precise > directions to a > nectar source by the angle the bee dances. If bees can't see > in the dark, > then this would all the more support the idea of Adrian Wenner and > associates that odor is the focus of a waggle dance, not sight. Why would movement have anything to do with the signaling of odor? That is we see bees using scents to communicate when they fan their glands at the entrance to the hive. Why do we want to belive that to transmit odor they run around in a circle? In a dark hive the "waggle" seems a good way to get the attention of other bees. The grooming behavior of some mite resistant bees is triggered by a "waggle" for example. The communication of compass direction, while oriented to a vertical plane would seem to require some form of abstraction (is up north to a bee as it is to us?). Language has become a loaded word in this debate. There is no need to assume that the waggle dance is a complex set of syntax that can convey abstract concepts, but rather a very finite syntax that serves a very limited function. #/usr/bin/perl while(<>){r/language/syntax/ig;print} ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:14:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: OhioBeeFarmer Subject: Hive Box Grade Select\Commercial\Budget I recently purchased some Hive Boxes that were suppose to be commercial grade. The boxes I received were probably the worst boxes I have every received even to what I consider budget. I called the company and haven't received a response so until I do I won't mention their name. Here's my question. What do other beekeepers feel the standards are for example. Select Grade = No knots, no cracks or splits. Commercial Grade = Some knots, no knots that leave gaps or that are following out, no cracks or splits. Budget Grade = Several knots, knots falling out, small splits or cracks. I would appreciate any feedback on this issue. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:30:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "KAMRAN F FAKHIMZADEH (MMSEL)" Organization: University of Helsinki Subject: Re: sugar dusting In-Reply-To: <200105221627.f4MGRIJ21969@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello All; Due to my lack of time to write an article for BEE-L in these days, I was thinking as the articles are available in American Bee Journal (June 2000) and Apidologie 2001(2) about the sugar dusting, why some experienced beekeepers can not convey the method to others? Or those beekeepers who have practical experience with dusting? Best regard Kamran--------------------------------------------- Dr. Kamran Fakhimzadeh Department of Applied Biology P. O. Box 27 00014- Universtity of Helsinki Tel. +358 40 55 36 791 (Mobile) Tel. +358 9 191 58393 Fax. +358 9 191 58463 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:46:03 -0500 Reply-To: Bob & Pat Fanning Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Pat Fanning Subject: Re: Advise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rodney, Don't worry about it. If you have a queen excluder, you can place it under the super with brood AFTER MAKING SURE THE QUEEN IS BELOW . Let the brood hatch, then harvest the honey. The only problem caused by brood in the super you want to harvest is that you can't harvest honey without killing the brood unless you wait until late fall to harvest. A more minor problem is that the comb will need PDB when stored this winter because the wax moth feeds on the dark combs left by brood. If you have a weak colony in a one story, you can move this super to it and increase their food stores and give them young bees. Queen excluders are just for our convenience. Many refer to them as honey excluders. I am convinced you will get more honey from a given colony without them. I like the luxury of harvesting when I want to and not have to worry about brood. Good luck, Bob Bob Fanning Huntsville, Alabama USA President Madison County Beekeepers Association (ALA. USA) See Our WebPages at www.alabees.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rodney Farrar" To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 4:55 AM Subject: Advise > I have brood in one of my supers what do I need to do? A queen excluder was > not used. > > Thanks, > Rodney In VA > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:30:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive Box Grade Select\Commercial\Budget MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will not accept boxes that have not been cut true and square and to the proper dimensions. Splits and knots and surface defects can all be worked around. The old adage "putty, tape, and paint make a carpenter what he aint applies. I tried some economy supers and the problem was in the dimensions and squareness. If the manufacturer cannot measure and cut square he has made kindling. Fooled me once. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Dragonflies During the past summer (we're just about in winter now), I had a dozen or so hives on a small dam wall near my home base. The hives were just feet from the water and dragon flies were always visible. I never saw one chasing a bee, let alone catch one. I found two death's head moths in these hives - what a remarkable insect; big, and capable of emitting a truly scary noise. There were also always more than a few lesser honeyguides around, but they don't harm bees. These birds watch to see if you're cleaning up any hives or supers in your bee yard. I have seen these pretty, shy, unobtrusive creatures eating foundation wax. Barry in Kyalami, near Johannesburg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:46:52 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have actually witnessed once a dragonfly (species unknown) catch a worker bee from the air. I still do not think that this is a problem in many places. Even in the area I made my observation the hives remained strong. So such predation did not seem to be significant. Tom > >From what I saw in my search (I skimmed quickly) no one admits to actually > having seen a dragonfly catch a bee. Maybe we will get a report this time from > someone who has seen one in the act? -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:33:28 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees In-Reply-To: <200105241407.f4OE7kJ04171@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > From: "Lipscomb, Al" > Why would movement have anything to do with the signaling of odor? Why wouldn't it? You follow with one example where scent and movement are observed together. Why not also with the dance? Odor and air movement have always gone hand in hand. You won't pick up a floral scent near as much on a still day as you would on a windy day, provided you are downwind from the odor. >That > is we see bees using scents to communicate when they fan their glands at the > entrance to the hive. Why do we want to belive that to transmit odor they > run > around in a circle? Why do dogs and other animals run around in circles upon meeting each other? To pick up on a *stronger* scent. > In a dark hive the "waggle" seems a good way to get the attention of other > bees. I don't think there is any disagreement on this aspect amongst researchers/scientists. I hope I will be corrected from them if I am wrong. The question is, what does the bee want to bring attention to. Some sort of cryptic compass direction to the source or attention to the odor of the source? Or maybe a little of one and a lot of the other. It's interesting to note that tests done by Dr. Wenner and assoc. "show that recruits do indeed take too long to find the flower source for a direct flight." See Figure 2. http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/abjoct1992.htm Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:49:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brad Henry Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're right about the young student and the ultrasound effect on mosquito larva. However, in his experiment, the ultrasound was applied via a water medium and instead of repeling mosquito larva, it actually had a physical effect of disrupting their body, killing them. Unlikely to have the same effect via air....then again think about your childrens stereo.. BradHenry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:47:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Dahlgren Subject: Re: Dragonflies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen Dragon Flies chase bees and also tumble in the grass after catching them. Their catching bees does not effect the hive drastically until they grab a virgin Queen on her mating flight. Bob Dahlgren mailto:beeman@netsync.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Elliott To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: Dragonflies > I have actually witnessed once a dragonfly (species unknown) catch a > worker bee from the air. I still do not think that this is a problem in > many places. Even in the area I made my observation the hives remained > strong. So such predation did not seem to be significant. > > Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:54:23 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dave Perhaps I am wrong, I thought that the faceted eyes had about the same response range as humans but shifted towards the UV. But that the three ocelli (sp) had a response into the far IR that allowed them to track isotherms. I have been unable to track down any positive references... All I can find is some work by LLoyd M. Bertholf.. "Reactions of the honeybee to light" 1930. In this booklet he describes the method of eliminating IR from his tests by using a glass cell with a solution of copper sulphate in water. The range stated by the above work was 313 nm to 650nm. However the maximum wavelength used in the tests was 705 nm which is just about the human accepted limit (700 nm). Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Brad Henry wrote > You're right about the young student and the ultrasound effect on mosquito > larva. However, in his experiment, the ultrasound was applied via a water > medium and instead of repeling mosquito larva, it actually had a physical > effect of disrupting their body, killing them. Unlikely to have the same > effect via air....then again think about your childrens stereo.. Brad completed my post. I wasn't sure of the concept of the larva kill. I knew that the discovery seemed significant to the hosts of the show. The fact that the method could be used for West Nile Virus control caught my attention. Wish I had been paying better attention like Brad was. Is application to a large body of water feasible? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:22:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky boehm Subject: Re: ultrasound and bees GULP, well as my wife says the excellent hearing (detection of vibrations) that I had as a youth has become selective. Did I hear something or just think I heard it? I must claim victim status , overtaken by a the english language where a word doesn't really mean what it means. Obviously bees hear or detect vibrations as in thumping the hive, or when a top is popped off when stuck tight. Now about this ultrasound device to run off pests, I called one of the manufacturers and had a good discussion with them, their contention is that the frequencies used irritate the nervous systems of target vermin and insects and causes them to find a more suitable (less annoying) place to live. Next time I must remember to be more careful about my choice of words. Sorry for the confusion, but had a great time reading where it led. Al Boehm, Columbus N C ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 18:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Formic in for 2 weeks Hi there, I have a question for the list. The formic acid pads on my bees were put in for the last two weeks and then removed. The were dried out, meaning most of the acid had evaporated. Is this treatment probably long enough, in terms of varroa and trachael mites, or will I have to reapply in the fall? Any opinion would be appreciated. In case this is of any help, the apistan from last fall was taken out a few weeks ago, not recommended I know, according to the package at least, but I left it so, since the neighbor who had 100 hives with 2 miles of mine lost 2/3 of them. None of mine died, except one that I didn't wrap or give an upper entrance in order to kill it, since it was so mean. Most of the hives came out of winter well and could have gone into pollination. Thanks in advance for the help, Carm. P.S. The location of the bees is Markdale, Ontario, Canada. By the way, how are bee related things looking for this year, nectar flows, hive strength, wintering success, etc.? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:33:48 -0400 Reply-To: "admin@CableNet-VA.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CableNet Admin Subject: Sugar Dusting (Step-By-Step!) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KAMRAN F FAKHIMZADEH (MMSEL)" said: > Due to my lack of time to write an article for BEE-L in these days, > I was thinking as the articles are available in American Bee Journal > (June 2000) and Apidologie 2001(2) about the sugar dusting, why some > experienced beekeepers can not convey the method to others? I can offer a few pointers. I have been reproducing Dr. Fakhimzadeh's results since his article was published in ABJ last year. (It is another rainy day in a solid week of rain, and most of my clients and employees are taking the day off, so it is a quiet afternoon here at the idea factory...) 1) What The Heck IS "Sugar-Dusting", Anyway? It is a technique that Dr. Fakhimzadeh proposed as a part of his Doctoral work. He published it in the journals listed above. I tried it. It works for me. Your mileage may vary, but as a card-carrying scientist (sorry, physics, not entomology), I can state that I have done my best to "reproduce" his results, and I feel that I can confirm and endorse his findings. (Heck, I'd nominate him for an award if the beekeeping community had any serious awards - the results are that good.) The idea is simple. When varroa fall down below a varroa screen, they don't crawl back up into the hive. Varroa have little "suction-cup" feet. Sugar particles that are around 5 microns in diameter clog up their little suction cups, and they can't hang onto things. They fall. They die. They don't live to reproduce. Therefore, dusting the backs of the bees will knock off some significant percentage of the mites, keeping the population "under the economic threshold". (Beg, borrow, or Xerox the ABJ article. Read the details for yourself.) Given time, we may find that sugar dusting allows one to stop using (or at least skip a year of using) Apistan strips and other toxic stuff. I have nothing against the makers of chemicals, but one wants to have more than one weapon when one deals with a beastie like varroa, and this is both a cheap and effective non-toxic treatment. 2) Which Powered Sugar To Use? I do not think that 2% - 5% corn starch (found in Domino 10X and most other store brands) matters one bit. My reasoning is that one does not sugar-dust a hive until the warmer days, and there should be none of the problems that one might have with impurities in winter feed (dysentery). If the bees can fly, they can certainly avoid dysentery. But, just in case, try to find the LOWEST percentage of corn starch you can. There are rumors of "pure" powered sugar with zero corn starch (added to keep it from clumping up). I have yet to find any, but I have not looked further than my wife's pantry. (Yes, yet ANOTHER opportunity to drive your long suffering spouse completely insane, this time by stealing her/his powered sugar!) 3) How To Prep The Sugar? If you read the articles, you find that VERY tiny sugar particles are what clog up the "suction cups" on the legs of the varroa mites. But how to insure that you "dust" a minimal amount of useless larger particles, when the optimal particle size is on the order of 5 microns? This is what I do. It is far from "perfect", but it works, and requires no special equipment or skills: 3a) First, all sugar is sifted with a good-quality baking flour sifter. This removes the big lumps. One can simply dump the lumpy stuff back into the supply of sugar to be used in baking. 3b) Sift the sugar AGAIN, this time letting the sugar fall into a container that you can seal tightly against moisture. 3c) Do your sifting on a dry day. How dry? The driest possible. Mid-winter is a good time to do this, as heating systems tend to dry out the inside air. A day when you can get a shock from a doorknob is likely about the driest you can have. 3d) Add some rice to your sugar container to absorb humidity, and keep the sugar dry (Grandpa did it with his salt shaker...) 3e) SEAL the container tightly (I use canning jars). 3f) Note that you are likely sifting sugar in a kitchen. Both the sifter and the kitchen may be "community property" under the law, but a wise beekeeper would do the sifting over the sink, and be sure to clean up after the sifting. I had one unfortunate accident involving a sifter, a bowl of sugar on a coffee table, a large dog, and an unexpected visit from the Fed-X delivery man, so STAY in the kitchen. Listen to the game on the radio. 4) How To Apply The Sugar To The Colony? Since application of the sugar is the only "technique" one must master, I have messed with several different "varroa pistols", ranging from a bagpipe-like contraption to a foot-pump-driven monstrosity. The lowest-cost (and perhaps overall best) approach would be to use a well-washed and dried baby-powder container, one with a cap that twists to reveal tiny holes. You open the twist-cap so that the holes are partly open, squeeze the plastic bottle sharply, and the result (with a little practice) should be a satisfying cloud of fine sugar particles. With a little practice, you can perfect your "range" accuracy, and dust the bees without getting too much on the comb or frames. If the tiny holes get plugged up, give the bottle a sharp thump to dislodge the clogs. Now, you can remove frames, one at a time, give each side a few "poofs" of sugar, and replace them in the super or hive body. One hand holds the frame, and the other holds the baby-power container. Need two hands to pull that frame? Wear a carpenter's tool belt, and you have a "holster" for your varroa pistol and your hive tool. There are some who have mentioned simply dusting the top bars rather than removing the frames, but the idea here is to do one's best to knock down all the adult varroa in the hive, so I have dusted every side of every frame (except those with open cells, on the grounds that the queen looks for "clean" cells [watch a queen sometime, she "inspects" every single cell before laying], and those cells that contain unsealed brood.) Dr. Fakhimzadeh says that one need not be so careful, and that sugar DOES NOT have a negative effect on open brood or eggs. (Allen Dick recently pointed out that OTC dusted with sugar was claimed to be fatal to brood, and Dr. Fakhimzadeh stated that it is the OTC itself that can kill the brood, not the sugar.) Regardless, I'd still try to avoid open cells ready for laying, since one does not want to slow down one's queen. 5) I'm A Klutz - I'll Drop A Frame, Or Crush Bees! Don't sweat it. Several of the bee suppliers sell a handy gizmo called a "frame hanger". It has two brackets that slide over the edge of a hive, and two arms that support several frames at a time , hanging them out where you can dust them. You can buy one, and use two hands to handle the frames at all times. If you are a klutz, this will be a good way to get in the habit of developing skill, style, and panache in tearing down a hive, looking at comb, finding the queen, and other skills basic to "working with bees". Keep at it. You'll get better. 6) OK, I've Dusted My Hives - Now What? I going to assume that you have a varroa screen, a slatted bottom board, or at least a sticky-board insert with a mesh cover. (If you don't, get one! Sugar dusting will not help if the mites can crawl onto another bee after their fall. Better yet, even when you are NOT sugar-dusting, quite a few mites will fall through a varroa screen.) I use plain old "shelf paper", cut to the correct size, with the backing paper removed at the hive, and the shelf paper slid into the rear opening below the varroa screen STICKY SIDE UP. I'll say it again - STICKY SIDE UP!!! If you slide a fresh sheet in just before you do your dusting, you can get the most accurate "body count". There are many methods to count, and I am sure that some statistics expert will tear my head off, but I don't care how you count ("pick a few square inches", count all the varroa in a stripe across the sticky paper, whatever). But pick a method and STICK with it, so your data is all based on the same "sampling technique". When you sugar-dust, you should get more varroa on your sticky paper than you have EVER seen before. More than you would see after 48 hours with varroa strips, more than with any chemical. From what I have seen, the only thing that would knock down more varroa would be a direct nuclear strike on the hive. :) Remove that paper after a day or two, and replace it with a fresh sheet to count "falling survivors". You should see few on the second sheet, even after a week or two. Why sticky paper at all? Well, if you are doing sugar rolls as a varroa detection method, you may choose to NOT use sticky paper, but I LIKE seeing the actual results of the sugar dusting. Call me vindictive, but I laugh a maniacal laugh when I see a sticky sheet with lots of varroa. I laugh even more as I set the sticky paper on fire and drop it in a burn bucket. If you listen carefully, you can hear the little vampires scream. :) Seriously, once a varroa falls down below the varroa screen, it will NOT crawl back up into the hive and onto a bee. They just are not that smart. The varroa will simply lie there and starve to death, waiting for a bee to come close enough to climb upon. One does not need the sticky paper. Several articles have addressed the effectiveness of varroa screens. 7) WHEN Do I Dust My Hives? When you see "high enough" varroa counts as a result of a sugar roll or on a sticky paper placed under your varroa screen. (For instructions on how to do the sugar roll test, see this web-page, pointed out to the list by Mr. Aaron Morris): http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2000/btdjan00.htm#Article2 But what's "high enough"? Well, you have to keep track, keep records, and develop a judgement about such things. I can't simply give you a number, since there is no single number that would work for all hives, and no two beekeepers are going to even "sugar shake" their bees the same way. There is a trade-off here. One could sugar-dust a hive every week, but think of the impact on the productivity of the bees. Doing a complete tear-down of a hive is VERY disruptive. Better to tolerate a low varroa population for a while than to disrupt the hive so often. I would not dust more than once a month. (But one can do a sugar roll, or if you must, an ether roll as often as you wish.) One is likely never going to see zero varroa during the summer, so if you see zero varroa, question your test methodology. >From what I have read, the varroa population, if left unchecked, starts to get out of hand in June, July, August, and September. Of course, if one sugar-dusts early, one could argue that one could stop the population growth before it starts. A military strategist would argue that one must do a second sugar-dusting just in time to get any mites that were sealed in brood cells when you did the first dusting. I dunno, I am just happy that I have an all-natural way to kill the majority of the mites that does not require removing the hive from the season's honey production. 8) I Want Photos! I Want Video! I Want More Instructions! Oh grow up. I don't have the time to stage a photo shoot, and I am about as photogenic as a wart hog. If I have been unclear in some area, post a question. I read Bee-L every week or so. I'll answer, or better yet, someone smarter will answer. 9) I Have An Insecticide Duster - Can I Use It To Dust My Bees? You can use the same type of device, but I would buy a new one and mark it "Sugar Only", for obvious reasons. 10) I'm A Commercial Beekeeper, And Don't Have Time For This Nonsense Of Tearing Down Every Hive... OK, send me an e-mail, and I'll be happy to build and sell you the ultimate sugar dusting rig. I've got a Pratt and Whitney turbine engine from a Navy F-16 out in the barn that shows promise as a high capacity "whole hive" sugar duster. You could also use it to clean pollen if you had a football-field sized room in which to clean pollen... :) 11) Where Do We Pool Our Data? Good point. We should. Mites and diseases are forcing beekeeping to become much more of a "science" than an "art". "Science" means accurate records, archived in a central repository, and made available to all. I am open to suggestions on how we might standardize our "mite counts" to make such a data-collection effort worthwhile. 12) Where Do The Varroa Come From? How Do They Get In My Hives? I wish I knew. I wish I knew someone who knew. If you can find out where varroa come from, call me, so we can go napalm the place some Saturday night. jim Farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 09:34:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John P Reid Subject: Sugar Dusting--How to get rid of the cornstarch in powdered sugar Comments: To: fakhim@LADYBIRD.HELSINKI.FI MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, What an outstanding article, I am glad it was raining in your area so = you found time to pen it. I had one tid-bit to share with you. It is about the concern of the starch in the powdered sugar. =20 There are often times recipes for cooking where powdered sugar is = needed, but with no starch. The way this is done is you take regular old sugar, and put it in a = food-processor or blender and you put it on high and you make your own = powdered sugar. This works like a champ and you have the product you = need with no starch. John Reid Charlotte, NC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:58:05 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Eggs above the excluder In-Reply-To: <200105201306.f4KD6XJ12537@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105201306.f4KD6XJ12537@listserv.albany.edu>, Robert Mann writes > Several aspects of this interesting discussion quietly imply >drawbacks of queen-excluders. In all my experience of major quantities of eggs in a super, the queen was in there and it was my fault (except one damaged excluder). Like last week putting a small excluder on as I had run out of the proper size (wbc vs national in the UK). The recent posts mentioned small quantities of brood. So, I cannot imagine a queen either sticking her nether parts through an excluder over a bee space and up to a cell on the lower edge of a comb or crossing over to lay just 2 eggs in queen cells. Nor can I imagine a worker laying a diploid egg in just queen cells. But moving eggs around does seem a likely thing. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 11:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lennard Pisa Subject: literature/sound monitoring of bees Dear fellow bee-Listers, Can anyone in the field recommend literature on the use of "in hive" sound recording used to monitor the hive's response to disturbance. (I am curious if one could distinguish fanning, ventilation and stress behaviour by analyzing sonograms). kind regards, Lennard Pisa (Msc General Biology) Ravenhorst31 2317 AE Leiden Netherlands ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 13:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Seeing, "Hearing", Smelling, & Dancing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry said: > The question is, what does the bee want to bring attention to. > Some sort of cryptic compass direction to the source or attention > to the odor of the source? The "compass direction" is not at all "cryptic". Any child of 10 with an observation hive can watch the dances, transpose the bee dances into a distance/direction vector, go to the location cited, and count the visiting bees. People have been verifying this over and over for years. Regardless of individual opinions, recent work with "Robo-Bee" by Thomas Seeley, of Cornell University (and, I am sure, others who's names I do not know) tends to remove what little doubt might have remained about the "dance vs odor" question. Robo-Bee is a mechanical contraption that dances in the von Frisch style. It dispenses a "sample" of nectar to bees it is trying to recruit, much as a bee does, but it has NO ODOR, as it: a) Is made of brass b) Has never been to the site it is "promoting" c) Can be used to "promote" sites where there is no natural forage, and only a dish of sugar-water not in place long enough to create a "plume" of odor. d) Can be used to promote "decoy" sites, where there is nothing that creates any odor of any sort, nothing of value to a bee except a landing pad. If odor had anything to do with recruitment, then Robo-Bee would be unable to recruit any bees at all. Since Robo-Bee can recruit bees to hitherto unknown locations, it follows that "dance" and a sample of nectar is the minimum information required to recruit other foragers. > Or maybe a little of one and a lot of the other. I have no doubt that odor, colors, and other "landing zone cues" are used by bees AFTER they arrive at the general location designated by a bee dance. > It's interesting to note that tests done by Dr. Wenner and assoc. > "show that recruits do indeed take too long to find the flower source > for a direct flight." See Figure 2. Now hold on just a second here... Let's walk through this "interesting" data together. Here is the specific quote from Dr. Wenner's paper: "...outgoing flight times between the colony and the food patch for experienced foragers was under 20 seconds, yet recruited bees searched a median time of 8 minutes (and as long as 75 minutes) before they found the station indicated by the dance." a) If an experienced forager knows of a good source of pollen/nectar that is within 20 SECONDS flight time, which dance does she do? She does the "round dance". b) The round dance DOES NOT include a distance or direction vector, but simply means "close to the hive, real close". c) It should be no surprise that recruited bees might have made several landings along the way to the "prime flowers" claimed to be the "target". When the recruitment was done by round dance. d) The round dance does not describe ANY specific target area. All Dr. Werner seems to be saying here is that "the round dance is not too accurate". No big surprise there for anyone. The way that the statements are made seems to be an attempt to discredit bee dance in general (a consistent theme of Dr. Werner's), simply because the round dance does not include vectors. To me, this set of data, presented without clearly defining the results of "round vs. waggle" dances seems misleading in the extreme. Deliberately so. The problem is that the less well-read might tend to discount all bee dance, including the dances that include distance and direction vectors due to the Werner paper not making any mention of "round" versus "waggle" dances. (However, his own description reveals that he must be speaking of the "round dance" for the data presented.) No one has ever claimed that the round dance was as accurate as GPS satellite navigation, Loran, Tacan, or a laser range-finder. :) How come a part-timer/side-liner like me has to point this sort of basic stuff out? jim Farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Getting rid of an aggressive hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a hive that is a pain, in every sense of the word, and I have decided to get rid of it. I recently saw a post suggesting 50 pounds of dry ice which would smother them, and do no harm to the hive. I found a source for dry ice, but the charge was .95 per pound. Is there a cheaper way? How about a small kitchen-style foam fire extinguisher? Think that would work? Any other suggestions? Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile - and get it over with." Charlottesville VA W.C. Fields ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:02:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Wax Efficiency in Honey Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For storage of honey in supers, slightly less wax is needed (for a given amount of honey stored) if the honey is stored in Drone cells as opposed to Worker cells and indeed the bees themselves will often fill in a damaged piece of super with drone cell. So, here is the question - why don't we use drone foundation in our supers in order to give the bees a slightly easier task in drawing out the larger (more efficient cells) ? Are there other subtle disadvantages such as, larger cells making it more difficult to dry the honey, or drone cells encouraging laying workers far away from the brood nest in pheromone- weak areas? Alan Riach Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:12:40 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Sugar Dusting (Step-By-Step!) POWDERED!!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like the title says "POWDERED" sugar, not "powered" sugar, as consistently misspelled in my prior posting. The problem with touch typing while pretending to be interested in a boring conference call and spell checking is that the spell checker has no idea of context, and one can "glaze write ova a manure era in won's whiting". :) jim Farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 23:01:44 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: al picketts Subject: Tremble dance info wanted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regards to all, I've studied bees for 25 years (plus) and just this winter heard for the = first time about a *Tremble Dance* done by the bees to indicate a food = source to avoid. Can any of you learned nice people expand on this = dance. Archive search was negative. Thanks Al Picketts Kensington, PEI, Canada ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:48:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Martin Subject: Blue Print/Design: 4-Way ClipPallets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Colleagues: As I continue to expand my honey bee operation is central Florida, I would to begin mounting hives on 4-way clip pallets. I would like to construct 4-way clip pallets using pressure treated lumber. Do you have a blue print/design of 4-way clip pallets that you could send to me or provide me with a reference in the literature. Additionally, any comments or suggestions on pallets or hive stands would be most appreciated. Thank you, Richard Longwood, FL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:18:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Stoops Subject: Re: Getting rid of an aggressive hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Guy Miller Subject: Getting rid of an aggressive hive >I recently saw a post suggesting 50 pounds of dry ice which would smother them, and do no harm to the hive > Any other suggestions? Guy, I'm pretty sure that the 50 was an typo error. I "think" that five pounds would be more than adequate. In fact, with the concerance of others on this list I think just a couple of pounds with a sealed hive would be more than adequate to terminate the colony in that hive. What think you others? Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:04:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Wax Efficiency in Honey Storage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Alan wrote. > So, here is the question - why don't we use drone foundation in our> > supers in order to give the bees a slightly easier task in drawing out> > the larger (more efficient cells) ?> In the U.S. many beekeepers interchange supers with brood chambers. Now that we are using chemiclas the practice is mainly drawing the future brood chambers as honey supers and then later using as brood chambers. In other words Langstroth deeps with drone comb would not be a very marketable item. In the *old Days* most comb honey and section honey was made with a larger cell foundation. > Are there other subtle disadvantages such as, larger cells making it> > more difficult to dry the honey, or drone cells encouraging laying> > workers far away from the brood nest in pheromone- weak areas?> I can only give my opinion on this. In my opinion larger cells would not make the honey any harder to dry. Probably no difference or slightly easier with the larger cell. In my opinion the drone cells WOULD NOT encourage laying workers. I have used honey supers stacked *midwest* high with a amount of drone comb clear at the top and have never seen laying worker cells. Those always appear in a queenless hive in the brood chamber and in worker cells as a general rule. Others may have made different observations but those are mine. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 08:59:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Martin Subject: Re: Getting rid of an aggressive hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Guy, Before you destroy the colony you should try to re-queen. I believe this will resolve the aggressive problem. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:27:36 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Processing of Propolis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have been looking through the web for information about how to process >propolis but have not been able to find anything. > >Does anyone have or know any formulas for processing Propolis for ingestion >and also for external use? There is a vast difference between experimenting with raw propolis for your own consumption and marketing as a medication. In Australia, I think this would take you into the realm of Therapeutic Goods with all the consequent licensing and inspection. If you are looking to commercial marketing, I suggest you investigate what regulations apply for medicines. There is an apitherapy page which provides links to various propolis producers and information pages at http://www.sci.fi/~apither/bdbindex.html. You could also try Beehoo search engine at the same Web address. The short answer to your query is that propolis is processed according to the final end use, as a tincture or whatever. This is by dissolving the raw product in substances such as ether or alcohol and then preparing for human use. Anecdotal evidence from the Internet refers to individuals trying their own combination of ingredients to render the raw propolis palatable, or at least able to be ingested. From all reports, the taste is terrible and there are side effects such as diarrhoea to beware of. There is also the possibility of contaminants being present in the raw propolis. I do not want to discourage you from the pursuit of knowledge. I simply point out the responsibility you take on when providing a medical substance without appropriate training. There are apitherapy courses advertised through the Apitherapy chat line and probably elsewhere. That is probably a good starting point. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: literature/sound monitoring of bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lennard Search "Bee Gadgets" for "APIDICTOR" Threre is also some incomplete "modernisation" of the apidictor on:- http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/apidictor.html Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: Tremble dance info wanted MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "...this winter heard for the first time about a *Tremble Dance* done by the bees to indicate a food source to avoid. Can any of you learned nice people expand on this dance." Information on the Tremble Dance can be found on the web and in a book by Thomas D. Seeley "The Wisdom of the Hive". Basically, the Tremble dance is a nectar processor recruitment dance performed by returning foragers. When a returning forager searches for a receiver bee and cannot find one for a prolonged period of time (I think I remember 50+ seconds is defined as prolonged), the forager performs a Tremble Dance to recruite additional processors. I have included an excerpt from Thomas Seeley's site below with additional information. http://www.nbb.cornell.edu/neurobio/seeley/seeley.html A colony adjusts the percentage of its workers engaged in nectar reception in relation to forage abundance. When a colony boosts its nectar collecting rate colony it also needs to increase its nectar processing rate to prevent a bottleneck in the overall process of nectar acquisition. The principal mechanism by which additional receiver bees are activated is the production of tremble dances by returning foragers when they experience long search times to find receiver bees. These striking dances are performed throughout the nest and activate primarily unemployed, middle-aged bees to the task of nectar reception. Tremble dances and waggle dances therefore play complementary roles in keeping a colony's rates of nectar collecting and processing well matched. Both dances are produced by returning foragers, by whereas waggle dances are produced when the search time is low and raise the collecting rate, tremble dances are produced when the search time is high and raise the processing rate. Ken Haller Arlington Heights, Illinois USA apism@home.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 09:55:39 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: propolis processing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Betty wrote: > propolis is processed according to >the final end use, as a tincture or whatever. This is by dissolving the raw >product in substances such as ether or alcohol and then preparing for human >use. The term 'tincture' normally means 'solution in ethanol'. If anyone decides to try ether, warnings are in order. 'Ether' normally means 'diethyl ether'. (There is also a mixture of hydrocarbons somewhat like kerosene called 'petroleum ether'.) Diethyl ether has a dangerously combustible vapour, but the liquid itself is also dangerous. A fellow research chemist once had a winchester (glass flagon) of ether explode spontaneously in his lab, just along the corridor from the tearoom where the staff & grad students were, fortunately, congregated for morning tea; we were all startled by the loud bang. Shards of glass were driven into the walls, ceiling & floor of that lab. Technical-grade ether has inhibitors added to slow formation of the peroxides that cause such explosions, but I would advise anyone outside the chemical industry to stay well clear of ether. (You would probably have difficulty getting much of it, because of this danger; but I'm saying don't bother.) The usual solvent for propolis, ethyl alcohol, poses other hazards but is not explosive in any comparable way. For us S. Hemisphere beekeepers as winter colds now threaten, it's a good time to point out that sucking a sliver of propolis (no ethanol or ether involved!) is a good treatment for sore throats. I've not found it tastes terrible; but that opens up the whole issue of different propolis compositions according to which trees etc it's formed from. R ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:23:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Blue Print/Design: 4-Way ClipPallets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Richard wrote: > As I continue to expand my honey bee operation is central Florida, I would to begin mounting hives on 4-way clip pallets. I would like to construct 4-way clip pallets using pressure treated lumber. > Do you have a blue print/design of 4-way clip pallets that you could send to > me or provide me with a reference in the literature. Additionally, any > comments or suggestions on pallets or hive stands would be most appreciated. Contact A.H.Meyer at 1-800-841-7952. They will send you plans for the industry standard pallet. They also sell the clips. You will add value to your operation by using the industry size and standard pallets. Many a sideliner has sold his operation to a commercial beekeeper only to end up with a stack of homemade odd size pallets, Telescoping covers and homemade bottom boards as the semi rolled out of sight.. On the other side of the coin the two largest beekeepers in the U.S. don't use the industry standard pallet but a design of their own. Hope I have helped. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 01:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "J.D." Subject: Queen Cells I'm new to beekeeping and need some advice. On 5/17/01 I installed a new 4lb package of bees in a new hive (single deep with 10 frames of CellRite foundation). These bees were purchased from a local bee keeping supply store. I was told when I ordered them that they were Italians shipped from California. The hive is setup with a one gallon internal feeder, which sits above the inner cover and is enclosed by a empty hive body with a telescoping lid. I checked the hive on Sunday night 5/20/01, the bees had started drawing the comb, but I did not see any eggs. I did see the queen walking in the middle of foundation, she is marked. This evening I check the hive again, I saw some comb fully drawn out near the corners of the foundation in the middle of the hive. I did not see any "capped" cells, but I saw 3 queen cells in the middle of a frame. The cells all appeared to be about the same age. Non were fully enclosed, they all had a hole at the end. I'm unsure how may eggs were present, I only looked at 3 frames. The two middle frames had eggs, more on the edges than in the middle. Pulled an outside frame and the two middle ones. Since this is my first (and only) hive I do not have a good benchmark on what things should look like. I am concerned about the queen cells. I don't want to loose my bees in a swarm, and I'm unsure how to tell if the hive is trying to replace a unproductive queen. Any advice on how I should proceed would be appreciated. Other information: - I have not used smoke on this hive - I live in the pacific Northwest, we have had good weather since the package was installed (daytime temp 60 - 72 over last 10 days) - Sugar water mix is 1 to 1, (5 pints water, five lbs sugar) 1 gallon - Bees are going through about 5 lbs sugar a week - Entrance reducer is installed - The hive is painted green, the local bee supply store recommended green because it would keep the hive warmer. - As far as I can tell there is plenty of room in the single deep hive body ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 23:08:47 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Jon :-)" Subject: Vinegar fogger (fumigation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I recently read an article about controlling mites and bettles etc by way of a system of fogging vinegar into a hive and this will reduce or eradicate these bugs from the hive over a period of 21 days. The whole process using a purchased kit is suppose to take about 5 minutes per hive. Can anyone please tell me where I can go to ask more questions and perhaps where I could look at purchaseing a kit? I would appreciate a phone number or address. Many thanks, I hope the season is going well in your areas. Jon _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 11:35:26 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: Queen Cells In-Reply-To: <200105280536.f4S5aKJ03025@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]På vegne af J.D. > Sendt: 28. maj 2001 07:11 > Til: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Emne: Queen Cells > I did not see > any "capped" cells, but I saw 3 queen cells in the middle of a frame. The > cells all appeared to be about the same age. Non were fully > enclosed, they > all had a hole at the end. Please don't panic, keep calm. What I can read from your msg is that you have supercedure queen cells, and those are often seen in package bees manly because of that the queen supplied might not be of best quality. if you only see a few queen cells placed in the middle of the comb 1 to 4 or five you can be very sure of supercedure cells. Swarm cells you will find a lot of but they will be placed on top of the frames or at button on frames and the most you will normally find between the bottom box and the second box if you have a dubbel brood chamber. my advise to you will be : leave the bees alone from now on and for the next 14 days. don't open the hive and keep your hands in the pocket :-) let the bees do their work, they do it best and you will have a new mated and egg laying queen in your hive. Why you should leave the bees alone is because the queen cells are sensitive to disturbances. the queen pupa is hanging in a very thin silk thread from the top of the cell, and if you pull out frames and are unlucky this thread can break and the queen pupa will die. Let the bees select between the new queen, again the bees know best Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software updated 27-05-2001 added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk