From MAILER-DAEMON@trance.metalab.unc.edu Sun Jun 17 09:21:55 2001 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by trance.metalab.unc.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f5HDLsn11191 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:21:54 -0400 Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f5HDJXP04149 for ; Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200106171319.f5HDJXP04149@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:19:33 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0106B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 256626 Lines: 5236 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:11:23 -0400 Reply-To: bees@oldmoose.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glen Glater Subject: text of regulation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested, here is the text of the regulation for Natick, MA, that I had faxed to me today. Chapter VI Horses, Cows, Goats, Swine, and Poultry Chaper VI, Section 1 and 2, of the Health Regulations adopted May 14th, 1946 are hereby amended to read as follows: Section 1: No person shall keep within the limits of this Town, in any building or on any premises of which he may be the owner, lessee, tenant, or occupant, any horses, cows, goats, fowls, pigeons, sheep, bees, or swine, without a permit from the Board of Health. All such permits expire annually on April 30th and may be revoked at any tme for cause." (Section 2 talks about keeping the stable clean...) Sect. 1-2 adopted on Jan. 17, 1950. Published Jan. 19, 1950 Process now is to apply, then go before a meeting of the Board of Health, state my case, let the abuttors state their cases, and then the board decides. I'm going to try to lobby my allies in the neighborhood to show up to say good things, and maybe we can overwhelm the nay-sayers. In the meantime, I hope to have confirmation of a new location for my girls any day now, just in case. --glen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:40:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: queen banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, You asked where do the attendant bees come from when the banked queens are above a double screen (I know it is a Snelgrove board, but who else does?). There are two different ways and I have done both. You MUST have an outside entrance to the hive body where the banked queens are located, either an entrance made in the double screen board (like Brushy Mountain's) or an Imirie Shim, or an inner board front entrance (which I prefer). I mentioned two different ways: 1) put a frame of open brood or capped brood and adhering bees in the hive body with the banked queens; but you run the risk of emergency cells if you use a frame of eggs or young larvae. 2) have frames of fresh nectar in the body with the banked queens. The forager age bees will forage from that hive body and attend to the banked queens also. My choice of the two is to use a frame with both open brood and capped brood present and this can provide nest bees (non-foragers less than 19 days old) for up to about 5 weeks. I hope I have answered your question. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:14:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, The bees are NOT going to leave the doghouse and start living in the hive. Why should they? There is no BAIT in the hive, only a lot of work to draw the foundation. Other than taking the doghouse apart and finding the queen to remove her to the hive, you will have to get the bees to move to the hive, raise a new queen there or install a new queen, and finally the old queen in the doghouse will die there for lack of bees. By the way, the BEST BAIT you can possible use is a frame of OPEN brood; and honey or sugar is the WORST bait you can use because it attracts robber bees. Here is what you will have to do to save the doghouse. Seal up the dog entrance. Drill a 1" hole in the center of the dog entrance covering. Using a piece of screen wire, make a funnel out it with the big end having a diameter of about 6" and the small end having a small hole diameter of only about 3/8"; and seal this funnel LARGE end over the dog entrance covering with the tiny small end facing OUT. Put a frame of OPEN brood, not capped brood, with adhering bees in the hive and place this hive entrance quite close to the small hole of the screen funnel and wait about 30-60 days. The doghouse bees can easily leave the doghouse by entering the big end of the screen funnel and go off flying after the pass through the tiny end of the screen funnel. But upon returning, they can't find that tiny hole in the screen funnel and they are attracted to the open brood bait in the hive that is just an inch or so away from the funnel. The doghouse bees take residence in the hive and raise a new emergency queen from the frame of eggs and larva that is in the hive, or you can buy a new queen and install her in the hive. After about 30-60 days, all the old bees that were in the doghouse plus the bees that emerge from the laying doghouse queen will have left the doghouse, could not find their way back in, and have "adopted" the hive and the new queen in there. This is the method used to get a swarm out of the walls of a house without injuring the house, but it takes time, and you must have some bee BROOD plus bees to warm it in a hive on the outside as BAIT. I have done this many times back in Depression Days to get bees FREE, because nobody had any money. If you have any questions, write me direct at GImasterBK@aol.com, and I will answer immediately I hope that I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:27:59 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Chemical composition of fluvalinate In-Reply-To: <200106071257.f57CvTP25049@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Allen Dick wrote: >I'm no chemist, but I gathered -- perhaps incorrectly -- from your above >discussion, that the presence of fluorine and the bond in the Prozac case, and >the presence of fluorine and the bond in the fluvalinate example, were >similar -- yet my understanding is that fluoxetine can be consumed safely and >beneficially (in recommended small doses) That was the judgement of the MEDICINES regulatory authorities. It is a question of acceptable risk, not of claimed utter safety. When humans can get a direct benefit by taking a drug, and when no significant hazard to others is entailed, side-effects are accepted when they would or should not be for broadcast chemicals (pesticides etc) where harmful side-effects can result on individuals and species that get no direct benefit. The standards are understandably different for the two types of application. What they have in common is F atoms covalently bound to C; and in each case there are biological effects which could not have been specifically predicted. In other words, organohalogen compounds tend to have strong biological effects but they're not foreseeable to any large extent from the molecular structure. > while fluvalinate should be considered >harmful in any amount. Where did this idea come from? Is there some suggestion that I said it? > If this is true, how does the presence of fluorine and >that type of bond make fluvalinate suspect as a more dangerous toxin than >similar molecules that lack that particular feature. I understood you to be >saying that one feature is the major difference between fluvalinate and the >natural pyrethroids? Yes - as a rule of thumb based on all the experience with halogenated organic compounds, as previously mentioned, they tend to be more harmful - and in some cases also more beneficial - than their nonhalogenated counterparts. A toxicologist upon seeing the 3 F atoms and 1 Cl atom in the fluvalinate molecule will tend to be more suspicious of it. The properties of this synthetic halogenated molecule, inspired generally by pyrethrum but seriously different, would be expected to be substantially different from the African daisy extract. >Interestingly Dr. Jerry Bromenshenk discussed here on BEE-L some time back the >toxic effects of fluorine -- as it occurs in water supplies -- on honey bees. >This was of great interest to me since our water supply locally is >apparently at >or slightly above the maximum Alberta standard for human consumption by >children >(2ppm) well I don't want to seem alarmist, but if you peruse the journal _Fluoride_ over the past decade or so you'll get (I predict) the distinct impression that 2ppm F- is imprudent for children's drinking water. There are filters which can remove most of this. Whether bees are more or less sensitive than humans to this poison is not clear to me. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:06:23 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Queen Banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've banked thousands of queens over an excluder above a strong queenright colony. I discovered early on that there are a few requirements for success. First, you need a strong colony. Second, you need the cluster of that colony to be in the top of it's hive. Third, and this goes along with two, you need a layer of cloth laying on top of the queen cages to keep the heat in. I had a couple of failures early on when I tried to bank queens over an excluder. I believe it was caused by the cluster contracting away fron the top of the hive in cold weather. This left the queens to get chilled. So now I pick a colony that is located in the top of the hive. I remove the inner cover, and place an old 7-wire excluder on the hive. I like these because they have built in wooden strips to keep the cages (screen down) up off the excluder wire. I usually place 25 or 30 cages on an excluder, and cover this with a 16x20 wool cloth. On top of this goes a 2" rim or an empty super, and then the outer cover. I loose a very few queens at times, but they keep in better shape than on my kitchen table. At the end of requeening I sometimes have a few queens left in the bank. I've seen these queens remain alive until I wrap the colony for winter in November. Lucinda Sewell wrote: > > Don't care who says it works, I won't be doing it again. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:40:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Guy Miller Subject: Beeswax solvent? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a friend who is in the chestnut business. He says he wants to "polish up" the nuts so they look more inviting, and asked me if there was a food-safe solvent for beeswax. Sounds an interesting idea. I know some things, such as lemons, are coated with something, but I don't know about using thinned beeswax for doing it.. Any suggestions? Guy F. Miller "Start every day with a smile - and get it over with." Charlottesville VA W.C. Fields ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 06:49:08 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Queen banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron wrote > On my second bank, I checked two days ago and the queen had been > released and way laying. I checked yesterday, the queen is gone and > there were more than a few but less than a lot of capped emergency > queen cells. How long was the queen banked in the hive? There was work done by Graham Kleinschmidt in Australia that showed that queen held in a bank (queenless as I recall) were superceded after a short time if they were banked for more than 28 days. Don't know why. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:06:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 6 Jun 2001 to 7 Jun 2001 (#2001-157) In-Reply-To: <200106080400.f58400P20160@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:00 AM 6/8/01, you wrote: >. I do realize that weekend beekeepers need to bank queens when they >arrive midweek. Queens and their attendants can survive in the mailing cages for a week or more. Give a few drops of water twice a day. *Don't bank queens* unless absolutely necessary. The general consensus is that *they are not improved by this process*. My plan for a queen bank is this: Start with a good strong hive. Remove the queen and cage her or get rid of her. The first story should contain combs with no brood. Put an excluder on top of this and fill the second story with honey and brood, putting the youngest brood in the middle. Put the queens in their cages in a special frame that is designed for queen cages. Hang this between the youngest brood (dead center in the box). . If the hive is *really* strong put on another excluder and one super. Check weekly for queen cells and add brood as needed from other hives. I have one of these already a month old. Some queens will die in banks, some will die in the mailing cages, etc. You have to expect this. Talk about replacement policy with you breeder *before* you purchase queens. Be reasonable. I hear stories all the time of people asking others to compensate them for their losses. Know your responsibilities. [The foregoing represents my personal point of view and no one else. Contact me off list for further info] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 06:14:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael Bassett Subject: Re: text of regulation On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:11:23 -0400, Glen Glater wrote: >For those interested, here is the text of the regulation for Natick, MA, >that I had faxed to me today. > since you live in Natick this probably doesn't apply to you but for others in Mass it may help. If you have over either 5 or 10 acres of land I can't remember the exact amount. A town can't pass an ordinace that is more restrictive than the laws on the states books. I had a go round on this with "pigs" once and the town lost. mike bassett Mass. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:46:45 +1000 Reply-To: Bindaree Bee Supplies Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bindaree Bee Supplies Organization: Bindaree Bee Supplies Subject: Re: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George talks about removing a feral colony of bees from a dog house. George's technique has been tried successfully with a chimney and documented with some excellent photographs by a member of the Beekeepers Association of the ACT in their monthly newsletter. For more information see: http://www.bindaree.com.au/newsletters/nlfeb01.htm (html), or http://www.tip.net.au/~phooper/bees/NLFeb01.pdf (pdf). I hope this helps. Richard Johnston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:30:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bonbee@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was wondering if the queen would continue to lay in cells if they are 90% off regular laying angle?(tipped over, ) Bonnie Pierson North Ridgeville, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:43:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Dog House Hive In-Reply-To: <200106080615.f586FvP23228@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What about Trying Drumming them up into the new hive body? Drumming is a very old technique, mentioned in the very earliest beekeeping txts as a method of moving bees out of their old skep, and into a new one so youcan rob the honey from the old one. The old skep was placed upside down, with the basket opening facing upwards, the new skep was placed over the old one, and then the beekeeper rythmacally and slowly tapped the old hive. the steady rhythmic thumping is supposed to make the bees walk upward into the new accomodations. I have also read a few modern accounts of beekeepers driving bees up out of log hives and into modern equipment using this technique. It might be worth a shot- drum them up into the new equipment, place a queen exclder below once you think the queen is up top, and then give plenty of space up top to set up housekeeping. I agree that drawn comb, and maybe a frame or two of brood is far better than undrawn foundation. If anyone has expereince with drumming- I'd love to hear about how it works! If you are up for a big messy project, you could always take apart the doghouse, cut out the brood, tie it in frames with string, and force the issue- kind of like moving a colony from a tree or house. (What a mess! The pictures I have seen......) Good Luck! Ellen, in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bonnie & All, > I was wondering if the queen would continue to lay in cells if they are 90% > off regular laying angle?(tipped over, ) A definite YES to this question. I get many hives knocked over by storms and cattle. My rounds are usually at 10 days to 2 weeks intervals. I ALWAYS find egg laying has continued if I check while sitting back up. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. they will store honey in those angle cells to but change the angle of the tip of the cells at times. They are also inclined to do more burr comb and my favorite item. They try to propolis the cracks between boxes shut. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:42:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Moving hives a short distance MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Again and again and again I read posts and magazine articles saying this cannot be done without major intermediate steps. Yet I do it every year as part of my regular manipulation with complete success and tolerable extra steps. When my summer surplus nectar flow ends – I get no fall flow – I split my hive in order to have two queens building populations. Late in the fall, I recombine them, sometimes as a two queen colony, in order to have a maximum population at the beginning of the next spring flow. To recombine, wait until dusk so all the foragers are inside when the split is moved to above the original hive. Thus those foragers which leave the next morning will “know” where the new (or relocated) entrance is even though they prefer the location of the split. Near the end of the day, place a bottom board, empty super and inner cover at the split location. After dark, move this super to the top of the hive. This may need to be repeated once or twice. The complete details of these maneuvers can be found in , "PSBA Forum”, “Maximizing the Spring Honey Crop", “Appx. A: ‘Splitting and Recombining’”. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:55:47 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen, I have done BOTH, drumming and tying brood comb in frames, but that was in Depression Days when people were willing to work for nothing. Those days are long gone. Further, today, so many beekeepers are in URBAN areas, and you dare not create too much disturbance to the bees that causes neighborhood stinging. Maybe the "Dog House Beekeeper" lives in town rather than out on a farm. I hope all is well in Michigan, haven't seen it in 10 years. George Imirie in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:27:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Dog House Hive In-Reply-To: <200106071745.f57HjqP04531@listserv.albany.edu>; from mcoldiron@YAHOO.COM on Thu, Jun 07, 2001 at 01:33:45PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > The question is, how is the best way to get the bees out of the dog house > and into a normal hive that I can work. > > Here's what I've done so far. After finding a suitable location in the > apiary, I turned the dog house on its end so the door on top. Then placed > a medium hive body with 8 frames of foundation and a frame feeder over the > door with an Imirie Shim to go between the house and the hive body. On top > I put a standard telescoping lid. But, how do I get them to move up into > their new home so I can do away with the dog house? > After reading this, and George's post I have decided that you have done a good job of supering the dog house :) I like what George suggested, using the cone method but I could offer some other thoughts. If you are not trying to save the doghouse and the shape of the current combs permits then you may be able to cut out the section of the doghouse the comb is attached to and work things out from there. Removing the comb with brood and putting it into empty frames is hard work and can result in a very messy failure in the long run. You may also consider that you may have just moved a Varroa loaded colony into your otherwise healthy yard. If the doghouse colony breaks down then you can have additional problems. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 12:59:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brad Young Subject: Do Bees have race awareness? I have a question that I was not able to find discussed in the archives or at least of how to search for it. Is there any evidence that Bees are race aware? In other words, is a colony of Italian Bees more likely to accept an introduced Italian Queen than they are a Carniolan or Buckfast Queen? Will brood introduced into a colony from a different race have a tendency to 'drift' into a colony of the same race during their foraging flights? Is this question being Anthropomorphic? Any idea of how often some of you may have changed the race of a particular colony of yours over the years? I apologize if this is covered in the Hive and the Honey Bee as I have not bought that book yet. I have it on my Father's Day wish list, though :-) Thanks, Brad Young Beginning Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 20:15:31 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, Were it my problem I would go the way Al recommended. Open up the dog house and carefully cut out one comb at a time. Brood combs can be placed in empty frames (lots of descriptions of this around) and honey combs harvested. With care you can do it gently enough to save the queen. The operation can be a fun learning experience. The only time I really cut combs from a sizable colony I was laying on by back under a shed and taking the combs out from almost over my face. That part was not a lot of fun, but coming out of the whole thing with a going hive was worth the effort. Just because. The possibility of mites is real enough, but that is true of any swarm any time. Plus if this hive has been in place for several years, who knows what you might have. Tom Mark Coldiron wrote: > > The question is, how is the best way to get the bees out of the dog house > and into a normal hive that I can work. -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 21:58:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Do Bees have race awareness? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brad, When you talked about not reading the Hive and the Honey Bee I felt compeled to answer as I believe you pulled up the post from the archives I posted about not putting human charactoristics on insects and listed reference points from the book. In answer to your basic question my answer would have to be yes. The different races of A.mellifera do seem aware of the different races. This is especially apparent with regards to A. mellifera scutellata. Many of our best queen breeders report problems getting the Russian Carniolan queens accepted. In my opinion the problem is related to pheromone differences instead of physical and color differences. I base the above simply on what I have read . I have not had introduction problems with the common races of bees used in the U.S. I suspect most of our U.S. bees are related somewhat through the narrow gene pool. Maybe a researcher with greater expertise on the subject will help us out. Hope I have helped. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 01:52:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Moon Phase Greetings all, Is there a certain phase of the moon to requeen or split hives in? I know it sounds a bit odd, but our ancestors based their activities on the phases of the moon. In fact, many people still do. My neigbor always scolds me when I plant something in the garden under the wrong sign. Odd thing is, when I plant it wrong, it doesnt seem to do as well, but I always said it was because I lack a green thumb. I always dismissed such things as coincidence, but recently, I read some scientific information that said solunar tables, which predict peak feeding times of wild game based upon the phases of the moon, actually had some merit to them. Animal movement and activity is often based upon photoperiod, and other celestial events. I was just wondering if anyone had any insight into this. If you dont want to post your ideas to the list, e-mail me with your thoughts. Thanks folks! Scott Moser ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:56:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Do Bees have race awareness? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad, This is my 69th year of beekeeping, most of which I kept 50-135 colonies. As a scientist, I was interested in which was the "best" bee to make the largest crop of honey in the state of Maryland and northern Virginia, so I had colonies of Carniolans, Caucasians, Italians, Buckfast, Midnites, Starlines, and Double Hybrids. In my normal usage, after the mites arrived in 84 and 87, I started requeening ALL colonies EVERY year as a swarm prevention. In my 69 years of experience, I have seen no evidence among the above mentioned races and hybrids including the local Uncle Tom's and Aunt Jenny's "League of Nations Bee" that indicates any race awareness. However, there must be an awareness problem with the Africanized Honey Bee, apis mellifera scutellata, because it is very difficult to requeen them with any queen other than another scutellata. Maybe the bee researchers at the Weslaco Bee Lab which "specializes" in scutellata knowledge has an answer for this, but they have never indicated that they had a satisfactory answer in the talks that I have had with them. However, I rather doubt that you want to raise AHB anyhow. Ha Ha! I hope that I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:22:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Queen Banks Comments: To: mpalmer@together.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, > I usually place 25 or 30 cages on an excluder, and cover this with a 16x20 >wool cloth. On top of this goes a 2" rim or an empty super, and then the >outer > cover. I loose a very few queens at times, but they keep in better shape than > on my kitchen table. At the end of requeening I sometimes have a few >queens left in the bank. I've seen these queens remain alive until I wrap the >colony for winter in November. Although there are many ways to keep bees and Michael has had success with the above method I see no reason why when the bees cluster the queens wouldn't be left to chill. Clustering around a queen in a cage happens but returning to the main cluster when the temperature drops is the natural response. Jerry's method of putting the queens between eggs/larva frames would be a safer choice in my *opinion*. As for the queens still alive until November. I don't understand leaving a queen caged any longer than necessary. The queen cage is simply a cage to transport a queen from point A to point B. The best release method and not brought up in this discussion is the push in cage. For the best results get all those queens *out of cages* and in nucs. Keep a nuc yard. Requeen with nucs with laying queens and forget about using those *man invented* queen cages as *homes* for queen bees. Unnatural and the longer caged the less acceptance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "Over forty years learning from the bees how to be a better beekeeper" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 06:01:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Cara & Tom Patterson Subject: Re: Dog House Hive In-Reply-To: <200106071744.f57HiNP04497@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have hesitated to respond waiting for someone else with more experience than I have to suggest using the removable swarm catching frames for transferring the comb and brood but since no-one has I guess I better. The description of the frames is as follows: This hinged frame, that opens like a book, is designed to allow easy capture of feral comb that can then be placed into a conventional hive. Designed by Dee Lusby, it's basically a split frame that is wired on both sides to hold comb in place. Once filled, the frames are nailed together and placed into a hive. The link for the plans is: http://beesource.com/plans/swarmframe.htm Somewhere in beesource.com are some really cool pictures of using these frames to transfer the comb from a swarm trap to the frames. I couldn't find that link and ran out of time to look. It was related to someones trip to visit the Lusbys in Arizona. Good luck! Tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: pasha Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: pasha Subject: Bees from South Texas Does anyone have info on package bees from south texas? I mean behaviour issue. Pasha ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 07:41:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim McGarry Subject: Re: Moon Phase I've often thought about this one myself paticularly when I am rearing queens. While I can't explain it, I've had similiar results in the garden in terms of both planting and how well my harvest keeps for the winter. Certainly if we can perform certain manipulations according to a lunar schedule it can't hurt. Maybe this is another area of uncharted bee research. Likewise, I look forward to any thoughts on this idea. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Comments: To: pasha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Pasha & All, > Does anyone have info on package bees from south texas? I mean behaviour issue. I have been waiting a long time for this post. I expected the post years ago. I personally have heard of no behaviour problems with packages from Weaver Apiaries in Texas and many of those are sent into our area. South Texas covers a HUGE area could you be more specific to the area. If you suspect AHB you can send a sample into any of the bee labs for testing . You should notify the state inspector in your area now if you live in a non AHB area. If your package came from a area close to a county with AHB all it would take is one AHB drone to fly into a nuc mating area. If you are not talking about your package being possible AHB I apologise for my misunderstanding your post. If you are not happy with the temperment of any package the only option is to requeen with another queen. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:27:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Moon Phase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Humanity charts will give you a reason for the planting with the moon. The ground level humidity cycles as the cloud covers do. The equipment today can over come most of this with drip irrigation and shade cloth. The secret to farming and planting is the brown stuff which will give you a brown thumb and not green. Natural lighting rain water has charges that is a charge level that differs from the ground water that we use in the farms. Growth cycles are effected by the charged water in drawing up minerals and water. The Florida natural sink holes that have been around for years will make air plants grown because of the charge in the humidity water released in that area. I have found nothing on the bees that indicates moon cycles. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:51:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Powell Botanical Gardens Hello All, Powell Botanical Gardens has on display the traveling exhibit called *Big Bugs*. Each weekend a different insect is on display. These bugs are huge. The weekend of June 16-17 features the honeybee. I will be at the gardens from 9am till 6pm on Saturday the 16th. A large observation hive will be on site. I will be available to answer beekeeping questions all day. The new water gardens is now open and breathtaking. Powell Botanical Gardens http://www.powellgardens.org 1609 N.W. U.S.50 Kingsville, Missouri Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:17:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Comments: To: pasha MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last year I purchased 3 packages of Bees with Buckfast queens from R.Weaver. Their temperament was no different than that of the packages I had previously gotten from Georgia or those that I purchased from California this year. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:33:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas In-Reply-To: <200106092336.f59NaYP18838@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello folks, Most of my bee's have been from weavers in Texas. I haven't had a problem one, the temperament range from mild to warm. Depending if I have kept up with the requeening. Now if you want some hot one's:) I have some that will stay with you up to 2 hundred yards. Italians, but hot. These didn't come from Texas, but from Missouri. preacher ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:36:31 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/9/01 7:37:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cedavidson@NETONECOM.NET writes: > Last year I purchased 3 packages of Bees with Buckfast queens from R.Weaver. Bear in mind that Buckfast bees are prone to some very snotty supercedeures. If you requeen every year with marked queens this should not be a problem. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Thomas W. Hoyt" Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas I started three hives this year with Buckfasts from the Weavers. Thus far they have been the most docile bees I've ever seen. BTW, if you look at a map of our fair state you'll notice that Navasota (Weavers) is a LONG way from the Rio Grande River. It takes about 6 - 8 hours to make the drive. Rev. Thomas W. Hoyt Holy Cross Lutheran Church Warda, TX ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:28:09 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Queen Banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > Although there are many ways to keep bees and Michael has had success with > the above method I see no reason why when the bees cluster the queens > wouldn't be left to chill. Clustering around a queen in a cage happens but > returning to the main cluster when the temperature drops is the natural > response. I don't know why it works, but it does. The queens don't get chilled. They're even alive long after the attendants have died. > As for the queens still alive until November. I don't understand leaving a > queen caged any longer than necessary. I don't leave queens in the bank any longer than I have to. Sometimes I have a few left over, and it isn't worth it to find a home for them. All my nuc boxes are full, and I've requeened everything I can. I left these in the bank to see how long they would live. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:35:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Queen breeding poll MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit It would be interesting to know if any consensus has developed on queen breeding systems. On a purely anecdotal basis, how do queen breeders and beekeepers rate the following for popularity and practicality of use? And separately, for the buyer, which systems are believed to produce the best quality queens? One is instantly aware, of course, that the race of bee would influence the exact system/s utilised. LARVAE TRANSFORMATION 1. Hand “grafting” into home-made wax cell cups. 2. JZ-BZ cups. 3. Nicot cupularvae system (non-graft system). 4. EZI-Queen system (non-graft system). 5. Other (if so which?), e.g., Jenter. STARTERS 1. “No-name” A and B super system where bees are smoked up into B through an excluder. B is removed and placed some distance from A and used to start cells. These bees can fly. A, with the queen, is sealed for 24 hours. A and B are later again united. 2. Swarm boxes, where around six kilograms of young bees harvested from various hives are used to start cells. Swarm box is sealed but ventilated for 24 hours. 3. Cloake system, where a (metal) screen is inserted between two supers, over an excluder. The bees in the upper super are “queenless” and field bees are drained from the lower super by opening a back entrance. The field bees have previously been trained to use an entrance on the other side of the hive between the two supers. 5. Other, e.g., Farrar system (see ABJ February 1977). FINISHERS 1. Under starters 1 above, super B is used for finishing above an excluder, after re-uniting. 2. Under starters 3 above, the upper super is used for finishing above an excluder after the metal screen has been removed. 3. “Conventional” horizontal finisher, using an excluder. 4. “Conventional” vertical finisher, using an excluder. 5. Other. INTRODUCTION TO MATING NUCS 1. Ripe sealed queen cell, unprotected. 2. Ripe sealed queen cell, protected e.g., in a cage. 3. Emerged (and marked) virgin in cage, with “eatable” exit, e.g., candy. 4. Other. Separately, would there be any such thing (size-wise) as an “industry standard” mating nuc? SHIPPING Which cages are seen as the most reliable for safe delivery of queens? Which cages are the most economical, including both material and shipping costs? Much thanks in advance for any responses! Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:11:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re: Do Bees have race awareness?-AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, George Imirie (whose words I always value) wrote > However, I rather doubt that you want to raise AHB > anyhow. Ha Ha! The more I read the more attractive scutellata appear. No AFB, SHB beware, vandals lookout and the same cellsize as cerana, varroa growth curve possibly flattened. Is there no chance of breeding a less fierce defensive cross with all those excellent traits? Sorry if it's a history lesson... John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:04:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: easy honey vinegar Are any of the current list readers making honey vinegar? If so, how much honey and how much water do you use by volume? Last year I mixed some honey and water and added a little vinegar from a natural food store that said it had mother of vinegar in it, put it in a gallon glass jar and put a piece of paper towel over the top held in place by a rubber band. I then forgot about it until today, when I tasted it. It seems to have turned into vinegar, but is really weak. Did I not put enough honey in, or do I just need to wait longer? I do not plan to buy any vapor locks or costly mead making paraphenalia as I am not interested in making mead. Any suggestions? Thanks, Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Deodato Wirz Vieira Subject: [No subject] MIME-Version: 1.0 Dear John Sewell I may be completely WRONG, but it seems to me that you have not yet experienced an AHB attack. I write from Brazil, and certainly did, I would NOT (repeat NOT) start to breed from these bees. It may be (and I do stress the MAY) easier to breed for the good traits, but the risk is high. Especially if you can find the same traits elsewhere in european (and now also russian) genes. If it were "only" for the scutellata's aggressivity, but you would have to consider other traits, like absconding and excessive swarming, and turning everything that comes in (e.g. pollen and nectar) into brood, because they don't need to stock for winter, that should be breeded out.... Deodato Wirz Vieira "Raising islands of gentle bees in an ocean of african aggressivity) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Get your free e-mail account with *unlimited* storage at http://www.ftnetwork.com Visit the web site of the Financial Times at http://www.ft.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:06:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brad Henry Subject: Re: Robinia pseudoacacia! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are bees in your area able to access Honey Suckle? Brad Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:54:23 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: queen banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron & All > I suspect queenless banks are optimal, but queenright banks work. I have never had any problems with queen banking and usually use queenright colonies, but I have even used mating nucs that vary from cell-to-virgin-to mated-then laying. The nucs held three frames each of only one third width of a BS frame there were three hair roller cages arranged vertically so that the queen could "hide" in the non perforated part. Losses were only small (1 % or 2% maybe 3% on some occasions) Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 06:47:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was able to catch my first swarm about four weeks ago. My question is they seem to only be working on one side of the hive (about two-three frames) should I move this to the middle? Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:59:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Dog House Hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A good alternative to tying pieces of comb into frames is to put a hive body of foundation on a bottom board, then a queen excluder (to serve simply as a rack) then an empty deep. Remove comb piece by piece, set the honey comb aside and put the comb with brood onto the QE, hunting for the queen. When the queen is found, put her below the QE. (If you don't find the queen, go through it again the next day.) After 3 weeks all the brood has hatched so remove the comb and the top box. Let the bees rob whatever honey is left in those comb pieces. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Queen banks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Trevor (and everyone), Sorry for the delay, I took a few days off. > How long was the queen banked in the hive? No more than 10 days. I'm not sure exactly. Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:42:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dann Purvis Subject: Re: Queen breeding poll In-Reply-To: <200106101820.f5AIKQP03548@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >LARVAE TRANSFORMATION >1. Hand “grafting” into home-made wax cell cups. I don't like these. They are more work and not as safe during transfer. I'm a new commercial queen producer (small) and I am trying to develop systems that eventually can be taken over by others whom might not be as interested in the welfare of the cell as I (laborors/helpers). >2. JZ-BZ cups. These are best for me. I breed from several different breeder queens. Each is assigned a color. Again it is another way to take the difficulty out of the system. It also helps in bee identification from larvae to nuc. I need this information for the breeding of certain traits. Don't get me wrong, I write everything down but this is another way to insure quality control and it is completely visual. I could go on and on about the merits of these cups but I have some queens to pull so I will try to stay short with this particular point. However, the bottom line is I love them. >3. Nicot cupularvae system (non-graft system). Tried it-don't like it. However, I do use the bars that are fitted for Nicot cages. They are very handy and brilliant in design. I like to double queen my nucs and the Nicot bar/cage system is great. >4. EZI-Queen system (non-graft system). Never tried them. >5. Other (if so which?), e.g., Jenter. Used Jenter and will be glad to sell you mine ;) Too many parts. However, the queen seems to lay better in these than the Nicot. Keep in mind, I still have fairly good vision. If I get less stable in my hands and poorer eyes, I will probably use the Nicot or a hybrid graft systems. I will be breeding queens for a long time if God is willing. >STARTERS >1. “No-name” A and B super system where bees are smoked up into >B through an excluder. B is removed and placed some distance from >A and used to start cells. These bees can fly. A, with the queen, is >sealed for 24 hours. A and B are later again united. >2. Swarm boxes, where around six kilograms of young bees harvested >from various hives are used to start cells. Swarm box is sealed but >ventilated for 24 hours. >3. Cloake system, where a (metal) screen is inserted between two >supers, over an excluder. The bees in the upper super are >“queenless” and field bees are drained from the lower super by >opening a back entrance. The field bees have previously been trained >to use an entrance on the other side of the hive between the two >supers. >5. Other, e.g., Farrar system (see ABJ February 1977). My favorite is what I call a Fert starter. I name it this after Giles Fert because he talks about it in his new book. I know he isn't the one that developed the system but it is easier for me to remember it that way. I just switched to it this spring and wonder why I haven't done it for ever. I use to use a swarm box and got great results but it was much more laborious and not as simple. It is similar to your number one but has some differences. Also, I have instituted my own changes to better fit my locale. I have two hive bodies but the queen is kept on the top hive body which has only 8 frames in it. Only 8 because I want lots of ventilation and it is easier to smoke most of the bees down through the excluder into the bottom hive. I keep two well filled pollen frames and two uncapped honey/nectar frames in the bottom hive body (starter). I heavily smoke the bees down into the bottom HB in the morning of the day that I want to graft. I then pull the top HB off and place it a short distance (at least 20 feet) away upon a bottom board. I don't use screen. Instead I place an entrance reducer. Cool nights and robbing are not that big of a problem for me. I graft at about 1700hrs. I always provide syrup with a board feeder so that I can see, at a glance, if they need syrup. Also, when I separate the hive bodies, I take a frame of young brood out of the top queenright HB that I just smoked the bees out of and place it between the pollen frames in the starter which was the bottom HB. Therefore it looks like this: nectar, pollen, BROOD, pollen, nectar. When I get done with my grafts, I pull the frame of brood from between the pollen frames and shake the bees off it. I put the grafts into that slot. It looks like this: nectar, pollen, GRAFTS, pollen, nectar. I then put the frame of brood back into the queenright hive which is 20 feet away, pointing in a different direction, without a screen and with a entrance reducer. I use this starter for no more than three grafts. It gets at least two days rest after rejoining. I will also add capped brood to it (1 or 2 frames) at the rejoining. >FINISHERS >1. Under starters 1 above, super B is used for finishing above an >excluder, after re-uniting. >2. Under starters 3 above, the upper super is used for finishing above >an excluder after the metal screen has been removed. >3. “Conventional” horizontal finisher, using an excluder. >4. “Conventional” vertical finisher, using an excluder. >5. Other. I use a queenright two hive body with honey supers and excluder between the hive bodies. I add nurse bees and capped brood to it when it starts to look weak. >INTRODUCTION TO MATING NUCS >1. Ripe sealed queen cell, unprotected. >2. Ripe sealed queen cell, protected e.g., in a cage. >3. Emerged (and marked) virgin in cage, with “eatable” exit, e.g., >candy. >4. Other. Usually I use unprotected 10 day old cells. Sometimes I will use a double queen system. I don't like to mark my virgins anymore. I "believe" that they are more noticeable to predators. >Separately, would there be any such thing (size-wise) as an “industry >standard” mating nuc? I use shallow and medium two or three chamber nucs. They are much less work and more efficient than anything else. The baby nucs aren't any good in my opinion. The only thing good about them is that the books seem to support their popularity and therefore they are easy to sell. The deeps are not as good on queen acceptance, are harder to find the queen in a hurry, are more aggressive (I don't use smoke with my breeding nucs), and not an efficient use of bees. However, they are more stable once established. I don't agree that they are better to use for introduction. I usually try to direct introduce laying queens into my own production hives during a honey flow. We have two major flows. I find that carrying 100 laying queens in a battery box much easier than lugging around that many Nucs. Now if I was in the business of selling 5 frame nucs then I would find some use of this size of nuc. However, I would not produce multiple queens from them, just the one that is going with the nuc in which I am selling. >SHIPPING >Which cages are seen as the most reliable for safe delivery of >queens? Which cages are the most economical, including both >material and shipping costs? I like JZ/BZ. More convenient and look more professional. I hope I did not bore you. I never spend this much time on the computer. Please let me know if you see things differently. My definition of an expert is someone that knows it all and doesn't need to learn anymore. I definitely am NOT an expert. I hope that others will respond to the survey. Dann Purvis Happy beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:20:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Honey vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You need alcohol to convert to vinegar using the acetobac. bacteria alive in your vinegar starter. Most advise a 12 % honey wine diluted with 2 parts water and 1 part vinegar starter. THEN cover with some sort of air filter. Air is necessary. I've got 10 gallons just about ready. A nice easy to make added-value product. Cesar Flores Colorado USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:52:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Let them "their" thing. After all, you have only had the swarm 4 weeks, over half of all the bees you caught are now dead. The new bees, laid by the queen in your hive are still nurse bees and have not even gone out to forage yet. Let nature take its natural course until they build their own colony integrity. After 1 or 2 more brood cycles (3-6 weeks), move anything you want around. I hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: How to "Direct Release" the queen? I took advantage of an opportunity to pickup a 4# package of Italians which I installed last Saturday, just before dark. However, this was my first experience with releasing the queen directly into the hive, instead of letting the bees chew thru candy in the cage. QUESTION: How do you get her out of the cage? I pulled the cork and she wouldn't or couldn't find the hole. I didn't want to jiggle her too much so for 2 minutes I tried to will her to walk out onto the comb (9 frames of foundation - 1 drawn comb w/nectar & pollen). Finally, I took a couple frames back out of the box and laid the cage on top of the bees on the bottom board. Left it there for 2-3 minutes then grabbed the metal tab attached to the cage and pulled up a whole ball of bees. Gently brushed and pulled them away using my fingers - No queen in sight. THEN - I had to (again) slowly return the frames to the box fearing all the time that I might be injuring the queen. There must be a better way - please explain in baby terms if you must! Speaking of better ways - no attendants in the cage means the bees had to feed her, right? I learnt something from this go-round. As soon as I removed the queen from the package - the girls emitted such a buzzing roar! I take this as Proof that they had already accepted her. So- why not use direct release - if you know how. 8^) Thank You. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:50:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Peter W. Plumley" Subject: Removing attic colony In-Reply-To: <200106112057.QAA11886@syr.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I'm looking for advice in successfully removing and relocating a colony that is occupying space in the attic of a very old house. The owners called me as they where aware of my apiary. I initially observed the colony last week and have been formulating some plan of action. The entry is about 30' up in the lower corner of the eves. The comb area (all inside the house) is in the inner corner of the attic and is hanging between rafters but is also against the outside wall. It appears to be about two cubic feet in volume and there are bees on all wood surfaces up to a foot from the comb. It has the sound of a good month of June 'power house.' You can approach the colony easily - the attic is 6' high and a walk-in style. At the corner where they are located, the attic roof is about three feet high. These bees consider the attic their 'Hive body' and went after my light and the home owner standing behind me during my investigation. To get the queen, the brood and many of the workers, I have considered using a putty knife and starting in the early evening, trying to separate the comb from the attic walls and placing the whole 'ball of wax,' undeformed, in a large plastic storage bin with tight cover and then quickly carrying it through the house and off to my apiary 10 miles away. But I'm sure over half the bees would still be flying around in the attic and likely many in the house -- the home owners will wish they called an exterminator. Is a shop-vac a solution to this extraction? Can bees survive that sudden stop at the end of the shop-vac ride? Are there other non-invasive ways of gathering this colony successfully? PlumleyFarms plumleyfarms@aol.com 3188 Sentinel Heights Rd. or LaFayette, New York 13084 pplumley@syr.edu 315-677-7743 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:21:34 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Akin Subject: Smoker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I seem to either have difficulty keeping my smoker going, or it burns out before I am finished working my bees. I get tired of baby sitting the smoker to keep it going while I am working my bees. I am using dry burlap, and have used other things, but it seems to go out when I have a hive opened. It is frustrating to have to stop and relight the smoker! Anyway, recently I have been working my bees without even bothering with the smoker. They seem to be just fine with that and it is less frustrating for me. Does anyone see any problems not using the smoker? BTW, I have been keeping bees for 3 years now and I live in the Willamette Valley in Oregon. I have three hives, 1 Italian, and 2 Carniolans. I joined this list about a month ago and have appreciated the discussion that goes on here. Jennifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:46:43 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: pollen trap : hole size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable is there a standard size for the holes in the mesh/plastic used to strip = pollen from the bees in pollen traps? cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:25:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer, My credentials first. This is my 69th year of beekeeping, with apiaries having never less than 50 colonies and up to 135 colonies. I kept Italians for the first 15 years, and then switched to Carniolans 53 years ago. You should NEVER remove an inner cover without a lighted smoker close by! Note, I did not say "using it", but said "Lighted and close by" You never know when you are going to need it, and in an emergency, a minute delay while you are trying to light it might mean a disaster. I often work my Carnies without smoke, and even without a veil, BUT NEVER without a lighted smoker at arm's length. Most people just don't seem to know how to PACK a smoker to keep it lit. Burlap is an excellent fuel, one of my favorites, but it must be PACKED to stay lit, and to get a nice COOL, white smoke. You don't want a blue smoke or flame. The way to pack a smoker, is light a small piece, drop it in the smoker, and blow it good and hard until you really have a good fire going, then drop in a larger piece, blow on it until it starts to burn, then another larger piece and start packing down a little as you blow a little, then a much larger piece, blow a little and pack it down, and finally fill the smoker, and pack it down. This should last 1-2 hours. If you have dried pine needles in Oregon, they are the Number 1 smoker fuel in my opinion: very easy to light, packs easily, and gives a COOL white smoke. I hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Certified Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:36:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Removing attic colony In-Reply-To: <200106112353.f5BNr6P16871@listserv.albany.edu>; from pplumley@SYR.EDU on Mon, Jun 11, 2001 at 06:50:58PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Is a shop-vac a solution to this extraction? Can bees survive that sudden > stop at the end of the shop-vac ride? > > Are there other non-invasive ways of gathering this colony successfully? > I am not sure your method would work but thinking out loud a bit you can use a "bee vac" to reduce the number of lose bees and then transfer the brood comb to a standard hive body. Leave the hive body near the original comb in the atic for a day or two and then move them one night. For a bee vac there are may plans around. I made one using a small shop vac and a 5 gallon pail. The pail had a plastic "pull out" spout with cap. The shop vac had a 1 1/2" hose that fit pretty snug inside the spout. I added some duct tape around the joint to seal it and on the inside of the lid I taped some window screen to keep the bees out. I then took a larger diameter hose (2 1/2") and cut a hole in the lid the size of the larger hose. This reduces the air speed being pulled into the pail. The larger hose goes into its hole and more duct tape on the inside of the lid holds it into place. I have pulled down a number of swarms with this rig. The small shop vac is a hand held portable that I got at one of the larger hardware chains. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Swarm In-Reply-To: <200106111147.f5BBlWP23052@listserv.albany.edu>; from Rodsbug@AOL.COM on Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:47:38AM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 06:47:38AM -0400, Rodney Farrar wrote: > Was able to catch my first swarm about four weeks ago. My question is they > seem to only be working on one side of the hive (about two-three frames) > should I move this to the middle? > > Rodney in VA I am not sure if you have put the swarm on foundation or drawn comb but if you have them on foundation you may want to feed them 1:1 sugar syrup to give them a reason to start drawing out the rest of the comb. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:29:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: pollen trap : hole size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mark & All, > is there a standard size for the holes in the mesh/plastic used to strip = > pollen from the bees in pollen traps? Five mesh to the inch. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:17:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Robinia pseudoacacia! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad, In this area our bees love winter honeysuckle or bush honeysuckle, or "wintersweet" as some English people call it. Whatever, its book-name is *Lonicera fragrantissima* and when it blooms in January, our spring build-up kicks off. The ordinary vine honeysuckle (Lonicera sp.) blooms 3 months later. We rarely see the bees on it; its flowers are too long and narrow, not like the winter honeysuckle which has short white flowers. The hummingbirds really go for it though. They start arriving about the time it blooms. They also are fond of the trumpet-vine honeysuckle (L. sempervirens). Walter Weller West Feliciana Parish, Louisiana Subject: Re: Robinia pseudoacacia! > Are bees in your area able to access Honey Suckle? > > Brad Henry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 23:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, George Imirie wrote: > You should NEVER remove an inner cover without a lighted smoker close by! > Note, I did not say "using it", but said "Lighted and close by" You never <>know when you are going to need it, and in an emergency, a minute delay >while you are trying to light it might mean a disaster.< >From pg. 35 of "How to keep bees & Sell Honey "by Walter Kelley "Never attempt to enter any hive without a good smoker in the hand available for instant use" "To do otherwise is to court disaster which may result not only in the severe stinging of yourself but anyone else in the vicinity" These words of wisdom which echo George's come from another legendary beekeeper. Several on the Bee-L list talk about never using smoke. Nuc's yes but not strong production hives. I would rate beekeeping tools in this order. 1. smoker 2. veil 3. gloves Working bees continually without smoke *in my opinion* MAKES BEES AGGRESSIVE. I have had many a beginner call about the stinging problems he was having. Most of the time the smoker was out and instead of taking the time to light the smoker they press on with the bees getting more upset. Without smoke to smoke the sting area the smell of venom is in the air. Like George & Walter have said I have seen our sweet and gentle European bees get as nasty as Africanized Honeybees AND AS QUICK! Rare but will happen if you keep bees long enough. When it happens back away as quickly and calmly as you can. wait and return when the situation mellows. With bees when they determine you are invading their home (as with a bear) their first instinct is to remove you from the area. When the other 20+ hives join in better head for the truck for a few minutes. I won't lie to the list. I have had to climb in the truck a couple times. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. One of the worst times I ever got stung happened when I was around 16 years old doing migratory beekeeping in Florida . Tripped and fell on a hive coming off a truck. One of my first beekeeping lessons and a real *eye opener *or should I say *eye closer*. Never forgot the lesson! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Jun 0101 07:03:08 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Smoker Burlap is pretty standard fuel in Calif. because it lasts a long time and doesnt tend to blow out many sparks.That could be pretty important this year as it has been dry and windy,perfect conditions for forest fires.During rainy weather burlap tends to absorb moisture from the air and can be hard to light.Under those conditions a small propane torch will get it going pronto.When lighting it in dry weather,watch out for those tiny smouldering threads that can fall off before getting it into the smoker,they are capable of setting a fire and a burned up beeyard isnt pretty.In Calif. if you put bees on public land you are required to have a shovel and fire extinguisher and stay for half an hour after putting out your smoker to make sure a fire doesnt start.By the way a cork in the smoker is the best way to put it out.Dont bury smouldering burlap in dry soil! Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:59:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Removing attic colony Comments: cc: pplumley@SYR.EDU In-Reply-To: <200106112348.f5BNmvP16782@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you want to box the mass, make sure the box is well ventilated- otherwise the bees will be dead within a few minutes of sealing them in a plastic carryall. Give them at least 2 6x6 inch hardware cloth windows to breath and ventilate. Bees produce a suprising amount of heat! I made a swarm catching box out of an old hive body. Cut a slice off one sidefor a removable lid. Refastened it on using snap clasps from the hardware store, and then covered both open sides. (Lid and body side) with 1/8 inch hardware cloth. Lid fits tightly to the main box to prevent escapees. Now I carry it around in my car during swarm season, and I'm ready to go! I made this handy device after I had a rather experience capturing a swarm. I caught the swarm with no problem- dropped them, on a branch into a large cardboard box. They seemed perfectly content to stay in the box, and I only had a short drive home, so I put the closed box into the back of my car, turned the air conditioning up to high, and started home. Then I hit a construction detour. Instead of a 15 minute drive home, I was facing at a half hour, maybe an hour. After about 20 minutes, the bees started coming out of the box, and clustering on the back window of my car. They were perfectly peaceful, and not bothering me in the slightest, but you should have seen the faces of the folks about me in traffic- they couldn't believe I was sitting in traffic, with a back window full of bees, and I wasn't even opening a window. (To be honest, I was afraid to let any of the bees out in a residential area.) Some folks even seemed to think I was somehow that I had 5 pounds of beed clinging to the rear window of my Saturn. LOL! All I could do was signal that I was "OK", smile, and keep on driving. All the time, my car was rather warm, despite having the AC on high. (And yes, the air conditioning works! ) The bees, tank god, were content to cling to the rear window of the car- I never got a single sting. This just proves to me how gentle swarming bees really are. Well, after a very "interesting" drive home, I pulled the car into my back yard, opened all the windows wide, and united what was left of the swarm with the hive in my back yard- what a mess! The bees had overheated in the cardboard box, spit honey all over the inside of the box, and all over the back of my car. I can't blame them for vacating the box- they were suffocating! I spent hours cleaning spit up honey off the windows and the uphulstery. I was left with a big clean up job, I lost a good portion of that nice swarm, and felt foolish! (This is the first time I have shared this embarrasing tale- blush!) That's why I made up my swarm box - I was determined to be ready if I ever had to transport a swarm again! Ellen, in Michigan "Peter W. Plumley" wrote: To get the queen, the brood and many of the workers, I have considered using a putty knife and starting in the early evening, trying to separate the comb from the attic walls and placing the whole 'ball of wax,' undeformed, in a large plastic storage bin with tight cover and then quickly carrying it through the house and off to my apiary 10 miles away. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Akin said: > I seem to either have difficulty keeping my smoker going, or it burns out > before I am finished working my bees. I get tired of baby sitting the > smoker to keep it going while I am working my bees. I am using dry burlap, > and have used other things, but it seems to go out when I have a hive > opened. It is frustrating to have to stop and relight the smoker! Mr. George Imirie covered all the major points (of course), but I have one small suggestion to add. SCRAP YOUR SMOKER!!!! Yep, you heard me... throw it away. But you need a smoker, don't you? Yes, but you need a BIG one. The biggest size the catalogs have. My father (who is enjoying his 3rd summer of beekeeping and 4th year of retirement) had the same problem you had. He was trying burlap, pine needles, dry hay, but if he set the smoker down, he would have to "puff" for often a full minute to get it to put out more than a feeble transparent amount of smoke. Fast-forward to my first encounter with the bigger-sized smoker. "Why so big?" I asked the owner of the sizeable beastie. "They stay lit better" was the answer. He proved his point by laying down a smoke screen that could have hidden the advance of an entire armored division. "What fuel do you use - plutonium?" I asked. "Nope, same thing you use - pine needles." He said. I thought about that, and bought my father one of the big ones for his birthday. It also had a nice wire "bail" around the chamber to keep the hot metal from touching other things, and a handy little hook to hang it on the edge of a super, ever close at hand. Big ones work better. Or perhaps they just work better in the hands of relative novices. They stay lit longer. Much longer. They also put out MUCH more smoke. I could never produce the think white clouds with my little smoker that I can with my big one. My little smoker has been demoted to be a bit holder for my brace-and-bit drill. Don't ask me why smaller smokers are even offered by the beekeeping supply houses. I'd classify them in the same category as entrance feeders included in beginner kits and masonite inner covers - unexplainable lapses of judgement on the part of otherwise knowledgeable and well-meaning suppliers of appropriate products. You might say I paid too much for a "big" smoker, but when it comes to tools, one can reflect on one's fiscal irresponsibility at one's leisure, by which time the minor additional amount spent on the better tool has proven its value as a good investment. jim Farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 04:18:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Smoker Working with wild scutellata bees, which I need to do all the time, needs special attention to smokers. The wild African bee can be quite nasty, and sometimes all the smoke in the world makes very little difference. Anyhow, we run at least two medium sized smokers. These contain golf-ball sized pieces of dried cow dung. The bottom pieces have been lit with a small gas torch that plumbers use. It is very quick and convenient, especially when you make up a new load of dung during operations. You get lots and lots of smoke, which is, unfortunately, a hot smoke. If you know the bees are really going to nail you, when the smoker is lit up, you sprinkle half a handful of tobacco dust over the top. This dust definitely works. These dung-filled smokers need very little, if any, nursing, once you know the central "coals" are hot. When I work my own bees, which are also scutellata, but bred to certain refinements, I need very little, if any smoke. The exhalant from smoking a cigarette would be sufficient, but may turn my bees into litigants (that was from the sense-of-humour department). But seriously, for my own bees I use dried pine needles, which produce a uniform cool smoke. Burning pine needles is a bit of an art; suffice to say the smoker should be packed in a way not dissimilar to how a pipe smoker packs his tobacco. Overall, pine needles are definitely the best smoke for bees; and among pine needles, I would recommend pinus radiata as the best source. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:45:33 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Removing attic colony In-Reply-To: <200106112347.f5BNlVP16764@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Peter W. Plumley Subject: Removing attic colony "I'm looking for advice in successfully removing and relocating a colony that is occupying space in the attic of a very old house." Remove the combs one at a time from one side of the "nest" to the next. Any comb with honey should be put aside, you are interested in brood only at this stage and comb with honey is too heavy, messy and delicate to try and include. Cut the comb to fit into an empty wired brood frame, obviously making sure that you keep the combs upright. Once you have cut the comb to size, keep the comb flat and place the frame ontop of the comb in the position that the comb should be in the frame. Cut along the wires into the comb, not all the way through but in such a way that you can push the wire into the comb, thereby supporting the comb when it is placed upright into a brood box. Secure the comb in the frame with a few elastic bands, to prevent the combs dropping out sideways. The bees will eventually remove the bands but by which time they will have secured the comb in the frame. This should be done for all the combs until the brood box is full. As you work all bees on the original comb should be brushed off into the brood box. Once you have the first frame or two in there you will find that they will be quite happy to stay there. Do your best to get as many of the loose bees into the box, you will probably not see the queen but she will inevitably be brushed into the box. You now have a broodbox full of brood, young bees, the queen and no food. Place a super of drawn combs and two or three full frames of honey ontop and make sure your hive is bee-tight. If you don't have any full frames available you will have to feed the colony or alternatively crush the removed honey and comb and lay it in a plastic bag ontop of the brood frames and/or the honey frames. The bees will repack the honey into combs and remove the plastic bag/s bit by bit. This hive should be left as close to the original position for a day or two. All the bees will move into the box and the hive can be sealed and removed one evening thereafter with few or no bees being left behind. Make sure that the original site is cleaned up as best possible to prevent the next feral swarm from locating there. Painting some type of bee repellent onto and around that area would be a good idea. This process is really quite simple. My introduction to beekeeping was by removing an established colony, in fact I obtained my first colony this way, only I used a jigsaw to cut away a panel of a derelict boat to get at the combs. I am also South African so I was working with the "terrible African bees." The original comb should eventually be replaced by properly imbedded foundation frames, so whenever you open the hive in the future make sure you have some at hand. Good luck Mel Kayton Sunnyside Farm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 19:23:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Easy honey vinegar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What is honey vinegar used for? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 03:21:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Who Reads BEE-L? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the sake of privacy and to prevent SPAMming of members, the list of BEE-L subscribers is kept confidential. Nonetheless, we know that for every person who posts to BEE-L, there are ten or more lurkers who maintain BEE-L subscriptions, and I assume, read at least some of the daily messages. Who subscribes to BEE-L? We are a ever-changing international group representing -- to some extent -- all the continents except Antarctica. Our number consistently includes well-known writers and authors, editors, scientists, extension people, educators, regulators, commercial beekeepers, and hobbyists -- as well as wanna-bees. Although most BEE-L posts are routine, the daily flow of messages on BEE-L is a strong indicator of current areas of interest and concern in the beekeeping fraternity and quickly reflects changes in industry thought and opinion. From time to time, BEE-L posts have had a large influence on opinion in the beekeeping world or been picked up by the press. The subjects under discussion vary widely and touch every aspect of beekeeping from the personal to the technical. Some topics only come up once and others are perennial. A quick glance at the time stamps on any sample of articles reveals a number of members with consistently nocturnal habits. Because beekeeping is as much art as science, and because there are few simple or universally accepted facts in beekeeping, our archive is our FAQ. The entire compendium of BEE-L posts for the past decade and more is readily accessible and easily searchable at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/, and access there is simplified by a powerful search engine. Searching on any keyword will usually reveal a range of opinion from diverse regions and backgrounds that is far more useful and educational than a simple statement reflecting one person's idea of truth. However, for those who enjoy any one particular contributor's style, the archive search engine will return a listing of all the BEE-L posts by any member and then deliver any or all of the articles on demand. BEE-L is a completely free service in the original spirit and tradition of the internet. Everyone is welcome to post to BEE-L. Detailed information the culture of BEE-L and the rules of conduct are posted at the above-mentioned site and should be read by contributors before posting. Both regulars and newbees are invited to visit the web page and to spend some time there getting familiar with the search engine, browsing topics of interest and perhaps reviving an old thread via the web interface. The above web page is intended as a complete BEE-L toolkit, and therefore provides a link that permits members and prospective members to change their BEE-L subscription options. Subscriptions can be started, ended, suspended, or altered simply by filling in a form. There are a variety of possible ways to get delivery of BEE-L messages, ranging from real-time single message delivery to a daily HTML index to activity. Experimentation is recommended. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:08:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been twi posts on pine needles being the best fuel for smokers. At our Annual Picnics we have a smoker contest- to see who can keep a smoker lit for twenty minutes and at the end of that time have a cool but strong smoke. Pine needles win every time. As George pointed out with burlap, starting the fuel is key, with a fast burn first to get the fuel started and then add fuel. I burn newspaper to start the needles. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: How to "Direct Release" the queen? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, I always direct release the queen when installing a package. First I spray the bees well with 1:1 sugar water so they are nicely sticky and dump them into a hive body with 4 frames removed. To release the queen I simply give her a squirt of sugar water through the screen and pull one of the staples holding the screen in place with my hive tool. I then attempt to allow the queen to walk out unto one of the combs ( or foundation if that is what you are using). Once she is on the comb/foundation the next frame is carefully added followed by the others and the whole thing is closed up with a feeder on top. I only check the feeder and refill if needed for the first week or so. After at least a week the colony is examined to verify the presence of a laying queen and brood. As you noticed the queen is already accepted by the bees if she is alive in her cage so direct release just seems the best way to go. They usually seem to be laying by the next day or so judged from the age of the brood a week later. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:46:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Jennifer - I use cedar shavings (sold in bales for kennel litter) and think that the best fuel I've tried. If you can work without smoking, good for you. I've always thought smoking a hive messed it up for a day or more. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:34:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Pine needles for me too. Use newspaper to get started but not always. > As George pointed out with burlap, starting the fuel is key, with a fast > burn first to get the fuel started and then add fuel. I burn newspaper > to start the needles. This is true with most fuels not just burlap. Any of you use charcoal to start then damp mulch? Clay Crown Point , NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:43:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With a piece of sheet metal you can turn a small smoker into a larger one by making an extension piece to make it 4" taller. I used a piece of coffee can. I use wood chips mostly and the thing you need to do is to get the bottom 1/4 of the smoker rip roaring hot and burning before you add more fuel. Then you can sift on about a double handfull of chips and give it a few pumps and then fill it. I usually start my smoker with newspaper balls about looseleaf sized and crumpled, half a dozen before adding chips. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dann Purvis Subject: Re: Smoker In-Reply-To: <200106120459.f5C4xPP25432@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hey all, I agree with the listing of the priority of beekeeping tools with some slight changes. This is for my full strength/production hives. 1. smoker 2. hive tool 3. white long sleeved shirt 4. veil 5. Sharpie permanent ink marker (to take notes on top of the hive cover) 6. pencil and pad (to write down things to do) 7. gloves. I don't use them except during a dearth, robbing, treatments. I hardly ever get stung on the hand. Also it is very hard to impossible work queen nucs with gloves. Also, I agree with the use of smoke. Keep it nearby! Even with my queen nucs in which I rarely use smoke, I carry a small mist bottle of liquid smoke in my tool belt. To better elaborate on why I don't like to smoke my queen nucs; less equipment to carry from nuc to nuc, easier to catch the queen because she isn't as flighty, and the big one is I breed for gentleness. If I have a nuc that is aggressive it can mean that she is queenless/etc., or that the breeder/drones I am using might be throwing mean bees. By checking the history of the nuc I can get a general idea of what breeder it was. Just another way to check for aggressiveness. Take care, Dann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:20:37 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Smoker In-Reply-To: <200106112350.f5BNoJP16819@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I start mine with a piece of hessian. Flaming hot at the base. Follow with a small handful of Eucalyptus bark, really get that flaming and then top up the smoker with small bits of Eucalyptus bark. Does the trick for me. Mel Kayton Sunnyside Farm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas In-Reply-To: <200106100626.f5A6Q5P26910@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Various people have commented on their experience with bees from South Texas: "I started three hives this year with Buckfasts from the Weavers. Thus far they have been the most docile bees I've ever seen." "I haven't had a problem one, the temperament range from mild to warm." "Their temperament was no different than that of the packages I had previously gotten from Georgia or those that I purchased from California this year." "I personally have heard of no behaviour problems with packages from Weaver Apiaries in Texas and many of those are sent into our area." In light of the recent discussions on AHB's, these comments cause me to once again contemplate the doublespeak that often surrounds this topic. Thoughts that come to mind: AHB's (whatever that is) are known to be found in the states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, Utah and Florida. Even found a colony in Illinois last year! How is it that there are supposedly these random boundaries that no AHB's have crossed? Example: No AHB's to deal with right around Navasota, TX, yet they can be found much further North, even in mountainous areas with colder climates? With all the African stock that's been brought in over the years by various researchers and scientists and exchanged with various bee breeders in the south, we're suppose to believe that no AHB's exist in the Gulf states between Florida and western Texas? This, being a much closer match in climate for this bee than other states that are quite different. I have no opinion about Weavers, but only use them as an example in this discussion. Buckfast bees, brought about by Brother Adam, are made up with bees from Africa. What is the determining factor that promotes this bee (with African genes), yet labels another bee a stones throw away as being worthy of eradication? Lots more questions but would like some feedback first from the list. Lots of fuzzy math, it seems to me. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:18:16 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Maurice Cobo Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Barry: AHB means Africanized Honey Bees. Yes Brother Adam used bees from Africa but the Apis Mellifera Scutellata (the mean bee we hear about) is not the only honey bees from Africa, there are others: - the Apis Mellifera Lamarckii (Egyptian honey bee) - there is a black honey bee in the south / west part of Africa that I don't remember the name - I think that there is another one that is native of the north / west of Africa. All of them have the same African mtDNA, but they all do not have the same temperment. Not all of them are so aggressive as the Apis Mellifera Scutellata (African Honey Bee) which is native to the tropical forests where the bees have to be that aggressive in order to defend themselves from all the animals, birds and insects that are so abundant in those areas. Maurice Cobo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:27:55 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: pollen trapping : apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable we all know the "rules" in terms of applying apistan if honey supers r = on the hives. ie. DON"T!!! but what abt pollen traps? is it safe to be = trapping while apistan is installed upstairs? r there residue concerns? = r we all going to lose 12 weeks (annually) pollen production because we = can't trap? cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: removing bees from attic I would like to add my two cents worth on the attic removal question. I also have used a Bee Vac to remove bees from situations like this, and if I were facing an attic removal as has been described, I would definitely use my Bee Vac. I found the information along with photographs and explanation (to where even I could figure out how to do it) in Barry Birkey's web site: www.beesource.com under 'plans' and adapted it to the materials I had available to me. It works exceptionally well and I have never had a problem personally with bees being killed by it. If I am not mistaken, Matthew Westall from Castle Rock, Colorado, provided the plans and graphics to Barry. While I was working on mine, I sent several emails to Matthew about how to make the Bee Vac and how it works and he was very helpful. It has become an integral part of my beekeeping equipment for use in removals. I have even lended it to another beekeeper to use (since he didn't have one) and now he wants to make one for himself since he has used mine. Good luck with your project. Layne Westover, College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:05:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas I just called the Apiary Inspection Service office here at Texas A&M and asked a few questions about Africanized bees, the Weaver's, etc. and was informed that they have a "European Certification Program" here where they take samples of bees and send them to the lab to determine their genetics and certify them as European (assuming that they ARE European) and that allows beekeepers to move their hives out of quarantined (AHB) counties into non-quarantined areas, or to sell them certifying that they are European. This program, I was told, has been in place for the past 6 years, and the Weavers have participated in it since the program started. I do not know exactly what the lab tests are or what they are looking for when they measure "Africanness" but I assume there is some standard measure of some genetic material above some threshold value that determines whether they are African or European. The inspector I spoke with also told me that if keeping bees in our area he recommended requeening any swarm so that all hives would have known genetics. So as to be explicit just in case someone might misunderstand what I wrote above, the Apiary Inspection Service has the certification program for Texas beekeepers, and the Weavers participate in the program. Layne Westover ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:49:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, > AHB's (whatever that is) are known to be found in the states of California, > Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada, Utah and Florida. Even found a colony in Illinois last year! AHB has made the *Bee Experts* and AHB predicters wrong. Look at the maps of projected AHb infestation before AHb entry into the U.S. and now and you can clearly see when AHB entered South Texas the northern migration slowed and seemingly stopped. Why is big unknown. > How is it that there are supposedly these random boundaries that no AHB's > have crossed? Example: No AHB's to deal with right around Navasota, TX, yet they can be found much further North, even in mountainous areas with colder climates? We really don't know the answer (at least I don't) because AHB migrated approx 300 miles per year from the release in Brazil each year. I was one of the advocates for the American Foulbrood tainted syrup place in the area of the Panama Canal. I felt they could be eliminated at the narrow land bridge much easier and cheaper than the trap lines between the U.S. & Mexico. I got outvoted so quite a bit of needed bee research money went for AHB trap lines and upkeep. > With all the African stock that's been brought in over the years by various > researchers and scientists and exchanged with various bee breeders in the > south, we're suppose to believe that no AHB's exist in the Gulf states > between Florida and western Texas? This, being a much closer match in > climate for this bee than other states that are quite different. Barry you and Dee are going to have to let this subject die or provide at least one beekeeper to come forward and say he or she imported or received A. mellifera S. from the U.S.D.A.. I have challanged you both before. Please provide proof instead of opinions and ideas. If you could prove your theories then maybe Dee *could* ship her queens legally out of the AHB quarentine area ? Hmmm. > I have no opinion about Weavers, but only use them as an example in this> > discussion. Buckfast bees, brought about by Brother Adam, are made up >>with bees from Africa. What is the determining factor that promotes this >bee (with African genes), yet labels another bee a stones throw away as being worthy of eradication? The traits of A.mellifera scutellata have got no place in commercial migratory beekeeping. It is against the law to keep A.mellifera s. in Missouri. ALL 200 members of the Missouri Beekeepers Assn. voted to ban the bee. > Lots more questions but would like some feedback first from the list. Lots > of fuzzy math, it seems to me. You can keep AHB. These are not bees I want to work with. If the SMR queens work out my bees will be varroa free and I will not have had to melt ten years worth of comb and put up with AHB genes like in Arizona. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri thinking: "Two sides to every coin" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:52:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> Barry Birkey 06/12/01 12:50PM>>> How is it that there are supposedly these random boundaries that no AHB's have crossed? Example: No AHB's to deal with right around Navasota, TX, yet they can be found much further North, even in mountainous areas with colder climates? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No AHB around Navasota? Not true. Grimes county (home of R. Weaver and B. Weaver Apiaries at Lynn Grove) borders Washington and Austin Counties, both of which are quarantined. I bought a package from B. Weaver Apiaries that, I was told, was shook in an apiary near Bellville, which is in Washington County (which is quarantined). I don't know where the queen was mated. Burleson & Lee Counties of Texas are now quarantined as of May 21 after AHB were found in a trap 3 miles west of Caldwell (in Burleson County). Brazos County (where I live) undoubtedly will not be far behind. Grimes (adjacent to Brazos) surely will soon follow. If you're interested in learning more about AHB in Texas visit http://agnews.tamu.edu/bees/. FWIW: The bees in the package that I purchased from B. Weaver Apiaries weren't aggressive. The only problem that I had with them was that the queen (one of the new Harbo SMR experimental queens) turned to be a dud. More about that in another post. I visited with Richard Weaver (of R. Weaver Apiaries) last week when I dropped by to pick up a queen (a Weaver All American Italian) and he told me that the Buckfasts have been exhibiting a tendency to "get mean all of a sudden," particularly after one supersedure. I can attest to this fact. I have a former Buckfast hive that superceded this year and they are some of the nastiest bees I've ever had the misfortune of having to deal with. I got popped on the hand three times just smoking the entrance yesterday when I worked them. I finally put on the gauntlets but they managed to get me anyway (mostly stinging through my half rolled up shirt sleeves). And they're not producing a thing. They won't even draw foundation (all my other hive do). AHB? Doubt it. They didn't pursue me when I stepped away from the hive and they didn't boil out when I took the lid off. Did my supersedure queen mate with some AHB drones, perhaps? Possibly. But I've heard from a lot of other f! olks that Buckfasts have been getting testy after one generation, so this sounds about normal. So far, all of my experiences over the past 18 years or so with Weaver Bees (all of which, since Howard Weaver & Sons shut down, have been from Daniel & Binford at B. Weaver Apiaries) have been outstanding. Both the Buckfasts (prior to supersedure) and the All American Italians have been so gentle that I haven't even needed to wear a veil when working them, and they produce a good surplus even in bad years. My strongest colony this year is an All American, and they're exceptionally gentle. B. Weaver's refused to replace the experimental Harbo SMR queen that was a dud right out of the cage, so I have to admit that I'm not real happy about that. I now do business with R. Weaver Apiaries who also sell Buckfasts and All Americans. I heartily recommend both types. The only other bees from Texas that I've heard anything about lately are Italians from Clint Walker at Walker Apiaries in Rogers. I've not yet tried any, but a couple of folks that I know have and they tell me that some of them have been gentle, some of them kind of mean. Perhaps Rodney Holloway or Layne Westover here at A&M could post something about them (ya'll out there?). I remember a quite a few (ten or more) years ago seeing ads in Gleanings for someone in Kenedy (which is in South Texas) selling bees and queens, but I don't recall the name and I never purchased any. But, as has previously been noted, Navasota is nowhere near South Texas. I would consider anything South of San Antonio to be South Texas. Are there other breeders that really are in South Texas? I have 9 hives in my back yard in a residential neighborhood. No complaints from the neighbors. And I intend to keep it that way by re-queening when they get aggressive (like I'm doing right now with the former Buckfasts). With the high probability of AHB in the area it's now a way of life. Let's hear from some folks that really are in South Texas. Anyone from Corpus (my home town)? How about the Valley? Speak up! Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Swarming Package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I received a call about one of my hives that swarmed this afternoon. The hive was started from a package that was installed on April 20 this year. There was still room in the hive, both as foundation that had not been drawn as well as drawn comb. I was under the impression-obviously the wrong impression-that new packages do not swarm. Unfortunately the swarm was 50' up in a tree and had left before I got home from work. The weather has been warm but rainy and the bees have been confined a lot over the past couple of weeks. Any insight into this? Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:53:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jo Subject: Bees and pets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to know if any one could help me. My father was checking out a hive today and for some reason the bees attacked my two dogs. They were both badly stung and quite ill this evening, but I was wondering why all of a sudden would they do that now when it has never happened before. Joanna. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:56:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Swarming Package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coleene, What do you mean that "new packages aren't supposed to swarm"? Bees swarm when they are too crowded IN THE BROOD NEST, or when the queen is short of pheromone so she cannot inhibit swarm cell construction. You said there was still foundation in the hive which was started on April 20th. Haven't you been feeding them 1:1 sugar syrup CONTINUOUSLY since April 20th? A new package on foundation should be CONTINUOUSLY fed 1:1 syrup from startup to about September if you expect to get 30 frames drawn and most of them filled with winter stores. Now you really HAVE to start socking feed to them this late in the season, but it can be done. I hope I have helped. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:48:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jennifer, I NEVER smoke my bees. Move slowly with minimum jarring. Distinguish between bees flying all around you and those which actually land on you and sting (or try to). In the latter case, spray yourself with OFF and they will stop doing that. HONEY-B-HEALTHY solution (advertised in Bee Culture) is very calming if the flying bees get on your nerves. I also cover the frames not being examined with cloths (like a nurse assists during an appendectomy). The covered bees are kept quiet until it is their turn to be examined. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:37:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Removing attic colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Peter, Check out "Make a Suction Swarm Catcher" in , "PSBA Forum". If you install the bees in a hive and strap the parts together, can you get it down out of the attic? If so, do the whole job in the attic, wait until after dark so that the bees have moved into the hive, maybe wait another day or two, and then take the whole package home after dark. I just posted ("Dog House Hive") an easy way to get the bees to move into your hive. When I remove comb like you face, I cut the comb into chunks small enough to handle with a hive tool, starting from the bottom of the outside combs. Fashion a paddle out of 1/2" hardware cloth to handle the soft pieces with minimum bee squashing. You probably won't even use your shop vac suction box. It goes easier than you expect if you don't try to handle pieces which are too large. I have always been suprised at how tolerant are the bees of this major disruption. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Jennifer & All, Dan wrote: > Jennifer, I NEVER smoke my bees. Move slowly with minimum jarring. I see the above as bad advice for a beginning beekeeper. I would keep a lit smoker handy Jennifer and take the over 200 years of combined beekeeping experience of George Imirie, Walter Kelley,other Bee-Lers and myself. Better safe than sorry. Later after you get a few years of beekeeping experience and want to try Dan's method have a go at it. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:35:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: How to "Direct Release" the queen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Milt, I routinely directly release queens when installing packages. I install packages every spring, and have for 25 years. If the queen is too slow coming out of the cage, one can gently remove the screen from the cage and release the queen that way. The one thing I would suggest in doing this is don't remove screen and then place cage over frames, rather remove staples and place cage close to top bars before removing screen (In removing screen, open the loose screen like a door with the opening facing down toward the frames). Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:24:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Swarming Package In-Reply-To: <200106122240.f5CMe8P18636@listserv.albany.edu>; from cedavidson@NETONECOM.NET on Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 06:41:09PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 06:41:09PM -0400, Coleene E. Davidson wrote: > Hi All, > I received a call about one of my hives that swarmed this afternoon. The > hive was started from a package that was installed on April 20 this year. > There was still room in the hive, both as foundation that had not been drawn > as well as drawn comb. I was under the impression-obviously the wrong > impression-that new packages do not swarm. Unfortunately the swarm was 50' > up in a tree and had left before I got home from work. The weather has been > warm but rainy and the bees have been confined a lot over the past couple of > weeks. > > Any insight into this? > Yes, something whent very wrong! Not knowing where you are located I am at a bit of a handicap as to what to suggest. Maybe some more information would help: What sizes and how many boxes were the bees in? What is your geographic location? Did the bees swarm or leave? Are you sure? Why? Were the bees being fed? What? Which frames were not drawn? How do you count empty space in the hive? Once we have that I think there may be some good suggestions on what you can do now. (George may have given some hints but we will see). -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:58:34 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Swarming Package Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The swarm 50ft up a tree may be moved down to a much lower branch, from which they can then be conveniently dropped off into whatever box you plan, by shining a very bright light as a spot on the top of the swarm. Given a clear sun and lucky geometry, you can use a hand mirror, which I have found to work a treat (tho' does take perhaps 10min). I haven't tried this with an artificial light. Whether it's the light or heat or both I have no idea. It is only about 50W of visible plus IR so I doubt it can do serious harm. Several friends have also done this. The method seems to be fairly widely known in New Zealand; I don't know about elsewhere. It is for some reason quite fun - the fluid glob moves steadily downward by remote control. Gives you that Overlord feeling, perhaps. But then, I like swarms in many ways. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:51:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bees and pets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joanna & All, > I would like to know if any one could help me. My father was checking out a > hive today and for some reason the bees attacked my two dogs. Sadly bees don't *like* dogs. My dog goes with me to the bee yards when weather permits but stays in the truck I NEVER let her out close to the bees. They seem to zero in on her right away. I moved five skids of bees into a new location this spring. I had simply unloaded the bees. The owners dog ran in around the skids before I could stop him. He was stung many times. I had to follow him to his dog house and remove the stingers. He is ok but doesn't come around the beehives. I felt bad the dog got stung but I have seen dogs stung by bees many times for no apparent reason. I was standing in the same place as the dog without any protection and not one bee even buzzed me. I don't know if its the dogs smell or simply they are at entrance level. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:01:03 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: pollen trapping : apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/01 4:42:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, m12345@IHUG.CO.NZ writes: > is it safe to be = > trapping while apistan is installed upstairs? r there residue concerns? Hi Mark and all Apistan is a contact miticide, i.e. it is picked up by the bees feet and transferred around the whole colony mites, honey and all. Thus there would be similar concerns with pollen for human food as there is for honey for human consumption. Safety is subjective and standards vary but there definitely IS residue concerns. regards ... george ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas In-Reply-To: <200106122004.f5CK4rP13211@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Maurice - > All of them have the same African mtDNA, but they all do not have the same > temperament. If this is true, than we're left making decisions based on the FABIS system (http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/fabismanual.htm) on what is and isn't an AHB? This would indicate a fair amount of subjectivity. After all, it's their "aggressiveness" that has gotten them the notoriety in this country. Even Dennis Crutchfield mentions this AHB characterization in his Italians" "Now if you want some hot one's:) I have some that will stay with you up to 2 hundred yards. Italians, but hot. These didn't come from Texas, but from Missouri." I was recently looking through a bunch of test results where the Lusby's had sent their bees to W. Germany for biometric testing that showed their bees to be Caucasian/Carnolian with limited Italian influence. In another set of blind tests in 1987 sent by Dr Loper of the Tucson lab to Baton Rogue for a blind testing of FABIS for its accuracy, the lab results that came back on their bees used in the testing were showing probable Africanized with samples from both the yellow and black caste bees that were tested, and, the Lusby's had another lab testing for DNA that showed their bees to be like those in San Diego; small, black and a Caucasian type strain, but yet it wasn't identified as real Caucasian, just a Caucasian type. What is Caucasian type? The Lusby's claim native small black bees that they are seeing. Any research to show that native bees don't exist? I'll be posting these test results soon. So I ask again, if identifying AHB is so subjective, what does this say about how we have chosen to deal with it? Some have taken the approach that the right way is to eradicate all AHB. That raises the question, can they all be identified properly first, and then is it even possible to eradicate them all ..... NO! So why is this practice still going on? If, on the other hand, the way to successfully deal with this situation is in breeding (perhaps this is Weavers method), then why is this not made into a major issue with all the AHB experts and more written on it? To be fair to all, you can't have it both ways. You can't go in and eradicate one beekeepers operation because you determine by some means that they are AHB, and then the next guy gets overlooked because he might be a breeder or not in the "official" AHB zone. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas In-Reply-To: <200106122128.f5CLSHP16407@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Bob - > AHB has made the *Bee Experts* and AHB predicters wrong. This is very true. Just read what Lance Parr just wrote: "No AHB around Navasota? Not true. Grimes county (home of R. Weaver and B. Weaver Apiaries at Lynn Grove) borders Washington and Austin Counties, both of which are quarantined." >> How is it that there are supposedly these random boundaries that no AHB's >> have crossed? Example: No AHB's to deal with right around Navasota, TX, >> yet they can be found much further North, even in mountainous areas with >> colder climates? > We really don't know the answer (at least I don't) because AHB migrated > approx 300 miles per year from the release in Brazil each year. I think we really DO know the answer and it is stated above by Lance. Common sense will tell us that the AHB will migrate, at the very least, to all states and locations that have the same climatic conditions and habitat that the bees are currently in, does it not? > I was one > of the advocates for the American Foulbrood tainted syrup place in the area > of the Panama Canal. Nothing personal, but I'm glad it got voted down. To think we can contain such an insect with our various contraptions is outlandish. A good way to spend a lot of money for nothing. > Barry you and Dee are going to have to let this subject die or provide at > least one beekeeper to come forward and say he or she imported or received > A. mellifera S. from the U.S.D.A.. Did I say USDA? There are other researchers and scientists besides those at the USDA. But I wouldn't rule them out either. Talk to Dee about her thoughts, these are mine. Since the beginning of our time, people have been trading and moving bees by land and sea. Think about it Bob, to someone who's work and livelihood revolves around bees, you don't think they would try to get and study all different kinds of honey bees from all over the world? You live in a different world than I if you think this sort of thing doesn't happen. Can I "prove" it? Not in the fashion you ask for. Does that mean it hasn't happened? No. Just look at anything in our society that isn't suppose to happen and you will find plenty of people who will make it their goal to make it happen. I'm sure you've heard of Prohibition. It's even said that African queens were listed for sale in early issues of the bee journals. > Please provide proof instead of opinions and ideas. Careful, I see a lot of other people share opinions and ideas here. :>) > theories then maybe Dee *could* ship her queens legally out of the AHB > quarentine area ? Hmmm. Quarantine area? None where they live. Since their bees are officially NOT AHB's, that pretty much leaves it open for them to ship where they want. Hmmm. Kind of like the Weavers officially not AHB even though AHB is all around them. See how that doublespeak comes into play again. Sure is frustrating isn't it? Both have AHB's all around yet you seem to say one has them in their bees and another one doesn't. > The traits of A.mellifera scutellata have got no place in commercial > migratory beekeeping. It is against the law to keep A.mellifera s. in > Missouri. Then is it against the law to keep Italian bees that exhibit these same traits? Will I bee arrested for having "hot" bees even though mine are Italian? > ALL 200 members of the Missouri Beekeepers Assn. voted to ban the > bee. This is fine as long as the bee stays away on its own. How will you succeed at "banning" the bee from your state when we weren't able to "ban" it from our border? You've said before on this list that you take your bees down to Texas in the winter. How do you manage to keep from bringing any AHB genes back into Missouri? Do you AI all your queens? I'd be interested in knowing how you deal with this problem. > You can keep AHB. It's not a question of keeping it or not. If it's here, we have it. It's really a question of what is the truth about this bee, and where is the open discussion, without all the hype, on how to co-exist with it. I still think this paper that was published in 1986 is the most balanced out there on the subject. http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/bcsept86.htm Have you even read the USDA's final report on the African bee problem? http://www.beesource.com/pov/ahb/abjoct1974.htm >These are not bees I want to work with. If the SMR queens > work out my bees will be varroa free and I will not have had to melt ten > years worth of comb and put up with AHB genes like in Arizona. We all choose what path to take. I wish you and everyone else success. I have no axe to grind with your choices and enjoy our discussion very much. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:07:28 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all When it comes to smokers... A bigger one allows you to work for longer, but bigger is not "better". > They also put > out MUCH more smoke. It is not the amount of smoke that matters, a small amount skillfully drifted with the breeze is all that is needed. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 23:54:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, Barry raises some excellent points as do the others which have added to the post. To sum up the direction I believe Barry is headed with the discussion about identifing AHB and put all of us on the same page I will have to repost previous information from my former posts. First the queens released by Kerr were not ALL A.mellifera S.. The first press release said they were A. mellifera adansonii. Is short the name covered ALL races of bees at the time from Africa. We came to find out in later years even A.mellifera Capensis queens were imported by Dr. Kerr. However there has NEVER been a documented report (I am aware of) of the Cape bee . Please correct me if I am wrong. I am a student of AHB but surely there are others with more knowledge about AHb than me on Bee-L. So we can only assume the cape bee queens & strain didn't survive. The Cape bee could be far worse for commercial beekeeping than AHB or varroa. All those beekeepers which have studied the bees of Africa agree (Brother Adam also) that the only truly undesirable is the infamous A.mellifera Scutellata. According to Brother Adam the only time he used gloves was with A.m. scutellata. If you are still with me and haven't deleted yet my point is that Ams has distinct features and color. quote pg. 39 of new *Hive and the Honey Bee*: "Although A.mellifera Scuteliata has common features with A.mellifera capensis, it is EASILY distinguished from ALL other races" A.M.scutellata is a small bee with scarace pilosity,variable pigmentation on the abdomen(one or more yellow bands),mostly a BRIGHT YELLOW SCUTELLUM on the thorax AND a characteristic wing venation. In my last post on AHB I asked if A.M.S. is what we are finding in AHB areas. I didn't get a answer. I ask again? Maybe as Barry says the A.m.s has been bred down to a point only dna can tell if any AHb still exists. I believe thats the point Barry is trying to make. Correct me if I am wrong Barry. As for this years Texas queens. Tens of thousands of queens were raised and open mated between I10 and I20 and east of Navasota. I have worked with,transported and polinated with some of these queens and they are some of the easiest bees to work with I have seen in years. To set the reord straight about the Weavers. The migratory beekeepers in Texas probabbly raised more queens in Texas than the Weavers did. Any one of those could have brought back a queen open mated with AHB. The area in Texas most commercial migratory beekeepers use SHOULD have been africanized five years ago. Why the slow to a crawl of AHB? Are we as I believe Barry is saying we are seeing only a bee with a very small dna of A.mellifers scutellata? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa,Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:39:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Bees and pets In-Reply-To: <200106130103.f5D13bP21744@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Sadly bees don't *like* dogs. This is unfortunate. My neighbor's yard abuts on my yard about 12 feet from my hive. They have 2 Labrador Retrievers and a small mixed breed. I've already told my neighbor that I will move the hive immediately if the bees cause a problem with the dogs. Both husband and wife have assured me that they have no objection to the bees, and in fact, welcome them. I hope that their welcome isn't changed by the dogs getting stung. There is a chain-link fence between our yards, and the dogs do not go out of their yard, and they aren't usually hanging around near the fence. The neighbor keeps their water dish in the house, so that's not a problem. My hive entrance faces parallel to the fence line, so the bees don't fly toward the fence when they leave the hive. > I have seen dogs stung by bees many times for no >apparent reason. I was standing in the same place as the dog without any >protection and not one bee even buzzed me. I don't know if its the dogs >smell or simply they are at entrance level. I wasn't even aware that bees don't like humans' breath until I read the article in ABJ. I've been puffing the bees off the feeder jar to refill it. Since reading that article, I give it a shake, and let them fly off back to the hive. I wonder if the bees take offense at the dog's breath, since it would be natural for the dog to sniff around the entrance. >Sincerely, >Bob Harrison >Odessa, Missouri Joseph A. Clark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:41:33 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Heavy bee kill over the winter could hurt N.B. blueberry harvest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Heavy bee kill over the winter could hurt N.B. blueberry harvest http://ca.news.yahoo.com/010613/6/60l3.html allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 03:44:32 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bees and pets In-Reply-To: <200106130734.f5D7YcP01981@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Sadly bees don't *like* dogs. > This is unfortunate. My neighbor's yard abuts on my yard about 12 feet > from my hive. They have 2 Labrador Retrievers and a small mixed breed... > I wasn't even aware that bees don't like humans' breath until I read the > article in ABJ. I am starting to notice a lot of generalizations creeping into discussions. About bees. About dogs. About everything. Generally speaking, generalizations are of limited usefulness at best, and can create fear and misunderstanding at worst. There are a lot of different bees in different places and a lot of different dogs and a lot of different owners of each, and a lot of different regions and climates where all the possible permutations and combinations of the above can come together -- and a lot of possible interpretations of what happens when they do... Some bees are vicious. Some owners are not careful how they handle them. Some bees that are quite nice to manage and be around in one region become hot when moved to another. Most, if not all, bees are meaner in one season of the year than another. Some dogs are big and black and stink. Some dogs are small and white and tiny and smell better than their owners. Some bees react adversely to human breath and others retreat when gently blown upon. I have had dogs around bees with few problems. Of course there is always a training period during which an inquisitive dog learns about bees and to keep an appropriate distance, but usually in my experience dogs are quick learners and can figure out the deal if they are not tethered or confined near the hive with no escape. Confined or restrained and unsupervised animals (or people such as children or invalids) being tethered or fenced or parked in the vicinity of active bee hives is not IMO, a good idea. Unanticipated things can happen to provoke bees and they are not always discriminating or predictable in the chosen targets of their defensive behaviour -- or the extent of their reaction. It is very hard to generalize with any certainty, but potential incidents are foreseeable to some extent, as are the consequences. Where the consequences are more likely and more severe, more caution is prudent. As for breath and bees, I often blow gently on bees to get them moving them on a brood comb being inspected, and sometimes I am not wearing a veil when I do so. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:32:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We had Mr. Jackson from the Texas inspection program do a session at the Nebraska Master Beekeepers in which they mounted wings on glass sides, enlarged them via a slide projector and measured wing veins (morphometrics) to quickly decide if EHB or AHB Dave > I do not know exactly what the lab tests are or >what they are looking for when they measure "Africanness" but I assume there is >some standard measure of some genetic material above some threshold value that >determines whether they are African or European. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Confused about hive design and bee space In-Reply-To: <200106131212.f5DCCnP04529@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings to all. I've been lurking on this list (and learning a lot!) for several weeks now. I'm new to beekeeping. I took a local course, and read a couple books, and then purchased two hives and nucs this spring. So far they seem to be doing well. I'd like to purchase a couple more, but I have concerns about my hives, and as I began asking questions about my concerns I began getting many conflicting answers. In particular, what I am reading about and being told is consistently conflicting with what I am seeing done, and the theory sounds better to me than what I am observing being practiced. I am torn between having my hives constructed they way it seems they OUGHT to be constructed, and the way that the experienced beekeepers around me seem to be doing it. My understanding of the theory: Bee space, about 3/8 of an inch, is enough room for bees to move through (so they will not gum it up with propolis) but not enough room to build comb (so they won't gum it up that way.) One wants bee space above, below, and on all sides of the frames in a hive so that ideally, they will not get glued to anything else by the bees. My understanding of hive design that implements that: Bottom boards have a 3/8 inch lip on thee sides. Frame bottoms are level with the bottom of their supers, leaving bee space beneath them when placed on the bottom board. Frame tops are 3/8 inch below the tops of their supers, leaving bee space between stacked supers. Feeder boxes and inside covers are flat on the bottom, leaving bee space beneath them when placed on a super. In short, everything should be flat on the bottom and have bee space on top, except for the outside cover. In my admittedly very limited experience, I have yet to see such a hive! My two hives, purchased from a 60 year old beekeeping supply store, has the frames slightly higher in the supers, leaving 1/2 bee space above and below the frames. That works fine between supers, but when placed on the bottom board it leave 1.5 times bee space, and I get burr comb under the frames. The top covers have a 3/8" lip on both sides, so I get burr comb on top of the top frames as well. The feeder boxes are flat on the bottom, leaving only 1/2 bee space beneath them. I called the supplier to ask about the reasons for these dimensions, and was told that it was to give extra ventilation by leaving a little more space at the bottom. I don't understand how that gives more ventilation if it encourages burr comb. I learned recently of an old bee keeper (63 years of beekeeping, now 83 years old) down the street from me. He finally gave up last year on keep hives (for health reasons), but he still sells equipment and loves to share his knowledge. I though perhaps he could explain this too me. I told him my understanding of the theory, and he said I was exactly right. Then I looked at the supers he was building, and they were the same as the other guys! More accurately, they were constructed differently, and the frames *would* sit level with the bottom of the supers, but he had added a small metal ridge to the rabbet that supports the frames (to keep the bees from gluing down the frames he told me) and that ridge raised the frames by about 1/2 bee space. This morning I went to beesource.com and looked at the Langstroth design available there. Here I thought I might find confirmation of my theoretical understanding. I found frame support rabbets 5/8 inch deep, and elsewhere on the site reference to 1/2" think top bars on frames, which would leave only 1/8" above the frames, not bee space at all. So everywhere I go I am told one thing, but shown another. I want to purchase a few more hives, and right now I think I want to order them to be consistent with my theoretical understanding, but I am hesitant to go against what everybody around me is doing when I am so new to all of this. Can anybody shed some light on this for me? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:02:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bees and pets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/13/01 8:19:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: << Unanticipated things can happen to provoke bees and they are not always discriminating or predictable in the chosen targets of their defensive behaviour -- or the extent of their reaction. >> Good post, Allen. I too would worry, if my neighbor had confined dogs within a few feet of my bee hives. While there is not likely to be a problem 364 days of the year, the problem could occur on the 365th and be a major one, if the dogs could not escape. Bees that are normally very good bees can have a bad day. We had a dog killed near here a few years back and it resulted in a lawsuit, even though the true culprit was probably not the hives, but a hanging, dry swarm. My own dog, Missy, is around bees all the time, but she is free to move. She pays them no attention and they usually don't bother her, even when she walks in front of hives. When they get after her, she lays under the truck or goes into the woods. We loaded a tractor-trailer recently and she was pretty laid back, even though the bees were thick in the air. After about an hour, she got popped and she went under the truck. We've got a cute photo of her with a bee veil on.... Dave Green An Aphid's Nightmare: http://pollinator.com/gallery/June/ladybug.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:20:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (0874A594) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" jaclark@NORFOLK.INFI.NET wrote: > I wonder if the bees take offense at the dog's breath, since > it would be natural for the dog to sniff around the entrance. No, I have dog breath and the bees don't seem to mind ;-) Aaron Morris - thinking like Malibu Skipper! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: pollen trapping : apistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > is it safe to be trapping while apistan is installed upstairs? The Apistan label does not address this concern, but as George stated there are DEFINITE residue concerns. That you even ask the question hints you already know the answer. The label doesn't say "Don't trap pollen while strips are in the hives", but the label also doesn't say "Do not lick strips!" If you wouldn't do the latter then you shouldn't do the former. If you feel the need to trap while you're treating, keep the contaminated pollen separate from pollen you trap for human consumption. You can use the contaminated pollen to feed your bees. > are we all going to lose 12 weeks (annually) pollen production because we > can't trap? That would be the responsible thing to do. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 07:02:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Yes Brother Adam used bees from Africa but the Apis Mellifera Scutellata > (the mean bee we hear about) is not the only honey bees from Africa, there > are others: > - the Apis Mellifera Lamarckii (Egyptian honey bee) It's been some time since I read Brother Adam's _In_Search_of_the-Best_Strains _of_Honeybees_ (so long in fact that I may not have the title exactly correct), but my recollection is that Bro. Adam only made it to the northern countrys in Africa and never made it into A. scutellata territory. A. lamarckii was definitely included in his "search". Aaron Morris - thinking it's time to reread the book! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Dave wrote: > We had Mr. Jackson from the Texas inspection program do a session at the > Nebraska Master Beekeepers in which they mounted wings on glass sides, enlarged them via a slide projector and measured wing veins (morphometrics) to quickly decide if EHB or AHB I have attended two of Paul Jacksons programs on venation of the worker bee wing. When AHB first arrived the standard*beekeeper* diagnosis was from wing venation and the cards Mr. Jackson passed out to measure the 4.9mm cell size. Paul tried to simplify the process for beekeepers. At the ABF convention in Austin,Texas I found most Texas beekeepers use the *kick the hive test* . If bees boil out and are aggressive they requeen by dividing the hive into three nucs and requeening with European queens. The beekeepers logic was simple. If they are that aggressive they need requeening anyway. DNA tests are ok but they involve time AND many as Barry says are inconclusive. In my opinion DNA is best used after a aggressive hive has been destroyed which has caused a stinging incident to see if AHB or only a swarm of bad tempered European bees were the source of the problem. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri. Ps. pg 36 of "HIve and the Honey Bee"(copy 1992) shows a picture of worker fore wing venation. Ratioa:b=cubital index ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:43:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space In-Reply-To: <200106131350.f5DDooP07213@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > This morning I went to beesource.com and looked at the Langstroth design > available there. Here I thought I might find confirmation of my theoretical > understanding. I found frame support rabbets 5/8 inch deep, and elsewhere > on the site reference to 1/2" think top bars on frames, which would leave > only 1/8" above the frames, not bee space at all. Hi Frank - I want to at least respond to this much of your post. The plans for the Langstroth hive design show the rabbet for the frame rest to be 5/8" deep. In the construction notes, it also states to attach metal rabbets on the frame rest notch. The overall height dimension of the deep hive body is shown as 9-5/8". Now on the plans for the frames, the height for the deep frames are 9-1/8". That leaves a total of 3/8" between each set of frames that are stacked on top of each other in hive bodies (between top bar of lower set and bottom bar of upper set). If made according to the plans, you end up with an 1/8" space above the frames and 1/4" below the frames, giving you a total of 3/8". I hope this clears up the confusion. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas In-Reply-To: <200106131235.f5DCZrP04932@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > We had Mr. Jackson from the Texas inspection program do a session at the > Nebraska > Master Beekeepers in which they mounted wings on glass sides, enlarged them > via > a slide projector and measured wing veins (morphometrics) to quickly decide if > EHB or AHB Hi Dave - While this sounds like a quick and easy way to determine EHB or AFB, the FABIS procedure, to even be close to correct identification, has a conditional warning stated in it. Since it uses size discriminate analysis, it is therefore prone to misinterpretation. The warning is as follows: "The sensitivity of this technique necessitates a warning. Ideally, users should verify that the European bees in their area are similar to the European bees in this study before these procedures are used to detect Africanization. If the European bees are not similar, especially if they are smaller, locally collected baseline data may be used to develop new discriminant functions or at least be considered in evaluating results. Such new functions would be more appropriate to the users' needs." A tool used the wrong way can make matters worse. I mention this because people talk as if it is easy to know the difference between AHB and EHB, when it is really quite hard. Because of this, AHB can easily be exploited. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space In-Reply-To: <200106131445.f5DEjbP09270@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey wrote: > I want to at least respond to this much of your post. Thank you. :) > If made according to the plans, you end up with an 1/8" > space above the frames and 1/4" below the frames, giving you a total of > 3/8". That conforms to the hives I already have then. > I hope this clears up the confusion. Not really, but it illustrates my point very nicely. If I put a feeder box (flat bottomed) on top of such a super, I would fear crushing the bees on top of the frames, (Only 1/8" clearance) and from what I have read, the bees will not be able to move above the frames to get to the opening in the feeder box, and may gum this space up with propolis. Is that right? Also, the super you describe if placed on a bottom board with a 3/8" rim on three sides (The usual design from what I have seen, and the one shown in the Langstroth plans) will leave a 5/8" space beneath the bottom most frames, and the bees will likely build burr comb in this space (mine do), reducing ventilation and increasing the chances that a replaced frame will crush bees. This all seems really obvious to me, but I'm sure others were thinking these same thoughts before I was even born, and yet it is beginning to seem to me that a 1/8" space on top is more common in the industry than bee space on top, and I don't understand why. I don't like to tinker with things until I feel I understand them. Would it be accurate to say that most people use supers with the frames "In the middle" of the super rather than level with the bottom? If so, why? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:15:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron & All, > > Yes Brother Adam used bees from Africa but the Apis Mellifera Scutellata > > (the mean bee we hear about) is not the only honey bees from Africa, there > > are others: > > - the Apis Mellifera Lamarckii (Egyptian honey bee) > > It's been some time since I read Brother Adam's > _In_Search_of_the-Best_Strains > _of_Honeybees_ (so long in fact that I may not have the title exactly > correct), but > my recollection is that Bro. Adam only made it to the northern countrys in > Africa and > never made it into A. scutellata territory. A. lamarckii was definitely > included in his > "search". In the video it shows and talks about Brother Adam stopping and looking at A.mellifera scutellata. The video makes the comment that the only time Brother Adam ever used gloves was the day he looked a A. scutellata. I don't believe the video says he brought home queens but I could be wrong as it has been several years since i saw the video of his search for *the perfect bee*. The video I am talking about shows Brother Adam being carried after he hurt his leg or ankle. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:46:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: swarms and mirrors In-Reply-To: <200106131518.f5DFIIP10685@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A mirror works. Just had a swarm that landed about 40 plus feet up on a poplar limb. Definitely out of our reach. We aimed the light from a mirror (about 2' by 2') on it for about 10 minutes with no obvious effect and then the swarm started breaking up, taking to the air and it dropped all the way to the ground where we had a box waiting for it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:50:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Musashi Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space Frank says: "Would it be accurate to say that most people use supers with the frames "In the middle" of the super rather than level with the bottom? If so, why?" I never worried much about how the supers and frames were put together--I just bought them from a beekeeping equipment supplier and put them together. If you get all your equipment from the same supplier, then you will have the correct bee space. As far as how I manage my bees goes, I often will set the cover on the ground upside down and then remove a super and set it on the cover. If the bottoms of the frames were flush with the bottoms of the box, then it would result in a lot of crushed bees when setting down the super. I appreciate the fact that there is a 1/4 inch space there so I don't crush hundreds of bees. Otherwise I would have so set the super full of frames up on it's side or something else to avoid crushing bees. This doesn't address all the issues you ask about, but it answers the "why" in practical terms. Also, the bottoms of my inner covers are not "flat" either. I make my own and put a small lip on them. If you buy all your equipment from a single supplier you should have no problems (except possibly with the super over the bottom board) in my opinion. Layne Westover College Station, Texas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:11:15 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank There are two distinct issues involved here... 1, how big should a bee space be? 2, Should this space be at the top of the box or should it be under the frames? There is an additional rider here that the bee space can be equally divided between top and bottom. To answer the first question we have to look at the bee space and how the bees use it. This is widely reported as being between 6 mm and 9 mm. but it is not a "variable" quantity, it is either 5.5 mm + or - 0.5 mm or it is 9.0 mm + 0.0 mm - 1.0 mm. In other words there are two distinct bands of possible bee space and these occur because in some situations the bees will work individually but in other situations they need to be able to work back to back. Much equipment is designed for a space of 10 mm when new, in the knowledge that the box will shrink in use and the bee space will still be within the range of 6 mm - 9 mm. This 10 mm space is usually divided into a chunk that is 9.0 mm and a chunk that is 1.0 mm. To address the second question is a little more difficult because it relies on human judgement and not the judgement of the bees. The bees will "automatically" respect a space of 6 mm or 9 mm because it is "natural" but the bees themselves are not bothered how this space is achieved. This comes down to management and standardisation. I live in the UK where our "British Standard" hive has bottom bee space, the majority of langstroth equipment used in USA will be top bee space, and many langstroth boxes in New Zealand will have half the space in the top and half in the bottom. I personally prefer the top bee space but use equipment that in all other respects is "British Standard". (I used to be a UK equipment manufacturer and so could readily accomodate non standard items.) The bee space applies between boxes of frames and between any adjacent parts, except the bottom brood box. The space between the bottom of the frames and the floor inner surface can be more or less anything over 9 mm. The standard in UK is 22 mm although some use 19 mm, and that is with the extra 9 mm space in the box under the frames giving 31 mm or 28 mm. I have seen them as deep 63 mm but they mostly had slatted racks. If you are troubled by brace comb between the bottom of the frames and the floor board, then I suggest that your bees did not have enough room at the right time. The odd knob or stool of brace comb would not be considered unusual. In some circumstances bees will build crescents of comb between frames and floor, these are shaped rather like turbine blades and help the bees to ventilate more efficiently. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:06:23 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Now I am confused... > The overall height dimension of the deep hive body is > shown as 9-5/8". If that is correct and > the height for the deep frames are 9-1/8". That makes a half inch gap no matter where in the box the frames are suspended. Which figure is wrong? When I made Langstroth boxes I made the frame rebates 24 mm deep giving 6 mm below a 9 mm lug and 9 mm above. The frames were 232 mm tall and the boxes 242 mm so there was also 1 mm under the frames. Production tolerances were + or - 0.1 mm (0.004") Shrinkage was 1 or 2 mm overall in box height (well seasoned timber) with no measurable shrinkage in frame sides. Converting 242 mm to old Imperial we get 9.527" not 9.625" Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:59:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Swarming Package MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 6:56 PM Subject: Re: Swarming Package > You said there was still foundation in the hive which was started on April > 20th. > Haven't you been feeding them 1:1 sugar syrup CONTINUOUSLY since April 20th? > A new package on foundation should be CONTINUOUSLY fed 1:1 syrup from startup > to about September if you expect to get 30 frames drawn and most of them > filled with winter stores. Per your reply, I fed syrup until natural sources became available and they quit taking it. Initially, they were taking about 2 quarts every 3 days and this continued until Dandilions and Marsh Merigolds were in full bloom. When syrup sits for more than a week without being touched, all I have read say it is time to remove it. It starts to ferment and mold. The bees were on some foundation and come drawn comb-not completely foundation. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:32:24 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Not so long back, I placed a couple of papers (one 'popular', one scientific) relating to this on the NZ Bkpg site. Though our beespace is below the frames rather than above, BEE-L readers might find the commentary interesting: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/nzbkpg/metric2.htm Nick Wallingford Tauranga, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:04:02 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: swarms and mirrors In-Reply-To: <200106131549.f5DFnPP11944@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >We aimed the light >from a mirror (about 2' by 2') on it for about 10 minutes with no >obvious effect and then the swarm started breaking up, taking to the >air and it dropped all the way to the ground where we had a box >waiting for it. Perhaps I didn't describe the method precisely enough. What you want is the image of the sun just touching the upper edge of the swarm. Within a minute or two - far less than 10min - the swarm moves downwards. You keep the bright spot just on the upper edge, and the swarm moves steadily down. It is as though you were pushing down on the top of the swarm. No major fraction of the bees take to the air. The mass of bees should be forced down to a low branch within about 20min. R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 00:55:50 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas/smokers/ahb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Barry Sergeant said > When I work my own bees, which are also scutellata, but bred to > certain refinements, I need very little, if any smoke. in the thread on smokers. I asked wether the aggro could be bred out of the AHB, and I've had (small) experience with scutellata. One of the more memorable being opening a termite mound hive mistakenly with a Massey 35 tractor...They seemed no different from the average hybrid here in Berkshire, some of which are facing extinction by my hand :-( ! I have a very experienced English beekeepers word that the AHB he experienced on a visit to USA seemed 'just like bees' as well. I have experienced very docile bees too, but consider them the exception in my wannabee collection still. Even at their angriest I haven't experienced the 'boiling out of the box' or smelt stinging with my bees, but I have been assured that English bees are capable of sending fully suited beeks to their truck. I have worked on a few documentaries...and have a healthy scepticism about what I've seen 'killer bees' do for the cameras. Also hearsay about bees being riled up for reporters. I still have my original question...which Barry Sergeant's aside on another topic seems to hint at an answer to. I believe Brother Adam did not use scutella, can any one confirm this? I don't know why I think scutella don't get AFB, perhaps because South Africa do import honey, yet still have no problem with AFB...am I wrong? Is the AFB resistance not part of the reason for the original importation to America? I appreciate your replies. Again sorry if it is old hat to some. I just don't understand WHAT makes the difference, the scut or the locals... Luckily here in England it's kind of academic...I think. John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:31:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space In-Reply-To: <200106131515.f5DFFXP10571@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Frank - > Not really, but it illustrates my point very nicely. If I put a feeder box > (flat bottomed) on top of such a super, I would fear crushing the bees on > top of the frames, (Only 1/8" clearance This is correct, crushed bees with flat bottom items on top. However, most inner covers are designed with the panel set into the middle of the perimeter framework, giving you the other 1/4" you need above the frames. Same thing with feeder boxes, the one on my site allows for this and has a 1/4" lip around the bottom edge. You can always increase the space pretty easily with strips of wood, plus, bees will tend to build comb in an oversized space more than they will an undersized space. > three sides (The usual design from what I have seen, and the one shown in > the Langstroth plans) will leave a 5/8" space beneath the bottom most > frames, and the bees will likely build burr comb in this space (mine do), Yes, they may tend to build a bit of comb below the bottom bar but I personally have never found it to be a problem. If they want comb there, then let them have it. They know better on the ventilation needs they have. In regards to Dave Cushman's point about the frame and super dimensions being off an 1/8", I should mention that the design on the plans do not allow the side bars to be flush to the top of the top bar, but instead are below the top bar by 1/16" so there is no risk of hitting the side bar ends when one goes to scrape the top bar clean with a hive tool. I'm pretty sure the other 1/16" is accounted for somewhere else but I'll have to look it over again to be sure. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:29:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Smokers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been using mainly liquid smoke lately and generaly find that it works well. I put as much on my hands as on the bees, or even more. While it calms the bees you can't is it to move them around as you can with smoke. When working vigorous colonies I usually have both syringe of liquid smoke and a lit smoker on my belt but usually manage without the smoke. I use old hessian (which I assume is the same as burlap) potato sacks for smoker fuel. So long as there is already some charring it ignites with a half second flame from a cigatette lighter and rarely goes out. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:29:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Austria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am soon to go on holiday to Schladming in Austria. Do we have any lurkers in that area who would like to show me their bees? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:53:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Rebate or rabbet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I notice the British referring to 'rebates' in relation to the groove on the inside top edge of the front and back panels of a standard bee box. As a former cabinetmaker, I am very familiar with the term 'rabbet' but have never heard of a 'rebate' except as a reference of returning a portion of a purchase price. I therefore wonder if the use of 'rebate' is an unique beekeeping word, a usage unique to the former British Empire (somehow not including Canada) or a common misspelling. I checked quickly online found this for 'rebate': http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?db=web1913&term=rebate and this for 'rabbet': http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=Rabbet I realise that there are other dictionaries out there, but I'd like to put the question to the list. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- Good news is just life's way of keeping you off balance. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:38:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Eason Subject: Rabbet or rebate G'day Allen. It looks like the Aussies are with the Brits on this one. These are the 2 alternatives taken from the Macquarie dictionary (Australian National Dictionary) This usage is not unique to beekeeping in Australia. rebate1 noun 1. a return of part of an original amount paid for some service or merchandise; repayment, as of a part of charges. verb (t) (-bated; -bating) 2. to allow as a discount. 3. to deduct (a certain amount), as from a total. [Middle English, from Old French: beat or put down] rebate2 noun 1. a cut, groove, or recess made on the edge or surface of a board or the like, as to receive the end or edge of another board or the like similarly shaped. verb (t) (-bated; -bating) 2. to cut or form a rebate in (a board, etc). [Middle English, probably from Old French rabat a beating down, or rabot a joiner's plane] Paul ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:35:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rebate or rabbet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rabbet and rebate are the same term in woodworking. 2 countries seperated by a common language. Cramps and clamps is another of the woodworking quirks. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:35:32 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Rebate or rabbet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Allen Dick [mailto:allend@INTERNODE.NET] I therefore wonder if the use of 'rebate' is an unique beekeeping word, a usage unique to the former British Empire (somehow not including Canada) or a common misspelling. The saw cut that forms the ledge upon which the frames sit is called a 'rebate' in New Zealand, so that backs Allen's argument re: the Empire... It is used by people other than beekeepers for the same sort of thing... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:11:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... On Sat, 19 May 2001 14:26:04 -0600, Allen Dick wrote: >Nobody should have to put up with queens that lack this essential >characteristic and the consequent economic losses that result from > AFB and chalkbrood. >Demand hygienic queens from your supplier and make sure your suppliers >are serious about breeding for this trait. Ask questions. Listen to >the answers. Don't take no for an answer. Buy where you *can* get >straight answers and hygienic queens. That was about a month ago, now. How are we making out? I get queens from two sources. A major supplier in Hawaii and my neighbours who raise cells. My neighbours are doing careful hygienic tests on their breeding stock and are happy to discuss the results of their testing. I don't know about the Hawaiians. I wrote my supplier there a week or so ago and so far have received no reply at all. Maybe the address is NG. I'll have to keep after them. Have others on the list written or phoned suppliers to demand hygienic stock? What is your experience? If we don't press for hygienic selection, we will continue to get bees that are unnecessarily susceptible to common diseases and require expensive chemical support -- have only ourselves to blame. Has anyone on the list done any side-by-side tests between commercial stocks using the pin test or liquid nitrogen? I should this it would be simple and enlightening for those who buy queens from several suppliers. The results of such tests should be a real eye-opener. I'm hoping that within a year we will be seeing regular reports from members of this list comparing their experience with queens they buy and test, naming names and giving credit to those breeders who get with the program early on. AFAIK, in the US, Pat Heikam is an early convert to the hygienic way of doing things. I am hoping that this is resulting in better prices and strong demand for his queens. Who else has hygienic stock, and have members confirmed this with their own testing of the progeny? If not, then why not? Let's hear some feedback. allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 01:48:38 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: HStarJE@AOL.COM Subject: Smoker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although strictly Tropical, I have never found anything better than Dry Coconut husks for Smoker fuel. Cesar Flores Colorado USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:11:14 +0200 Reply-To: melvillek@appletiser.co.za Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Melville Kayton Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas/smokers/ahb In-Reply-To: <200106140033.f5E0XqP26621@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "South Africa do import honey, yet still have no problem with AFB...am I wrong? Is the AFB resistance not part of the reason" It is illegal to import honey into SA without irradiating it. This is one precautionary method to try and prevent AFB in SA. I don't think resistance has anything to do with it. Mel Kayton Sunnyside Farm South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:30:05 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Rebate or rabbet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen My father was a Joiner and one of my previous hobbies was cabinet making... In UK rebate is favoured by some and rabbet is used by others, about 50% either way. What I call a "rebate plane" is often called a "rabbit or rabbiter". I have never worried about the distinction, but have in the past considered that rabbet was a slang form or rebate. I currently hold the view that they are both so widely accepted that it does not matter. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:04:36 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_Fr=FChwirth?= Subject: AW: Austria Comments: cc: cboigenzahn@imkereizentrum.at, vorstand@imkereizentrum.at In-Reply-To: <200106140047.f5E0lkP26929@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I invite you to Linz, the capital of Upper Austria. There is the "Österreichische Imkereizentrum" (Austrian Beekeeping Center) 300 bee hives, beekeeping equipment, breeding station, trainingcenter for beekepers, run by the Upper Austrian Beekeeper Association. We are specialiced on queenbreeding, we cooperate with ACA (Austrian Carnica Association); this organisation is working on honey yield evaluation and breeding evaluation. We can also show you our mateing statings in the mountains of our county. >From Schladming to you have to drive ca. 200 km by car, through a very nice landscape. Peter -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]Im Auftrag von CSlade777@AOL.COM Gesendet: Donnerstag, 14. Juni 2001 01:30 An: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Betreff: Re: Austria I am soon to go on holiday to Schladming in Austria. Do we have any lurkers in that area who would like to show me their bees? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:06:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Bee space In-Reply-To: <200106140404.f5E44CP03828@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings The question of the correct bee space size comes up every so often. Why is there so much space under the frames? As was correctly pointed out, this can be as much as a full half inch. The best explanation was given to me by an old timer, some 25 years ago. Lumber tends to *shrink over time* so foresighted manufacturers make the boxes a little large, 9 5/8". Then, if they shrink the bee space is still OK. If the size is correct to begin with and the boxes shrink, the space will be too small. A bee space a little too large will be filled with burr comb, but one that is too small will be filled with propolis -- making it much more difficult to pry apart. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bees and pets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > Unanticipated things can happen to provoke bees and > they are not always discriminating or predictable in the chosen targets of their > defensive behaviour -- or the extent of their reaction. > > It is very hard to generalize with any certainty, but potential incidents are > foreseeable to some extent, as are the consequences. Where the consequences are > more likely and more severe, more caution is prudent. A couple of those unaticipated things are scent- if the dogs were treated with some sort of flea or tick pesticide and the odor triggered agressive behavior-, or a nocturnal visit by a skunk. Some years back there were some interesting posts on bees, odor and horses and I am sure they are in the archives. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:15:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bees from South Texas/smokers/ahb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Barry wrote: > When I work my own bees, which are also scutellata, but bred to > > certain refinements, I need very little, if any smoke. John wrote: I have a very experienced English beekeepers word that the AHB > he experienced on a visit to USA seemed 'just like bees' as well. Bob wrote: A possible answer to why Barry uses little smoke which I must say is *not recommended* when working scutellata is because of his beekeeping experience. Ths same goes for the English beekeepers looking at AHB. The inexperienced has the most problems with aggressive bees. The experienced beekeeper realizes if a hive is in a good mood or a bad mood in ways the novice might miss. The experienced knows when to shut the lid and move on. Suttle little things like stingers pointed up or the normal routine stopped and all eyes peering up at you from between the frames. Boiling out of the hive and thousands of stinging bees is a documented fact about many scutellata hives. A very close firend which has observed scutellata many times reports things can go ok UNTIL stinging begins. The smell of venom *in his opinion* sets the pure scutellata off. Maybe Barry will comment? Also Barry are you working pure scutellata or a blend of A.melifera adansonii? Can you or anyone in S A say for sure? Have you tried to breed for a pure scutellata strain? I don't know why you would but felt compelled to ask. Are you not trying to breed out the aggressiveness of scutellata and have been trying to for YEARS? Feral colonies of scutellata seem the most aggressive. John wrote: I believe Brother Adam did not use scutella, can any one confirm this? The Midwestern Beekeepers library has the video tape I refered to. I am positive about Brother Adam working with scutellata on his search for the *perfect bee*. I honestly can't remember if the tape says he brought back any scutellata queens. I don't believe he did. Of the queens Brother Adam collected on the trip (Monticola and others) the English bee breeders would know better than I which he used in his bee breeding program. John wrote: > Is the AFB resistance not part of the reason for the original importation to Dr. Kerr was in search of a super bee. I believe he wanted queens from all the races to experiment with. He was isolating genes and traits. The fact he brought the cape bee backs up my theory. What trait or gene Dr.Kerr could get from the *Cape Bee* escapes me. AFB resistance could have been part of the reason for the importation but is not talked about in books of the period. In 1957 the world & U.S. was beginning to get a handle on the AFB problem which was out of control in the 1940's in the U.S. I started keeping bees in the 1950's in Florida and we talked about foulbrood but AFB was under control in most parts of the U.S. at the time. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Dr. Kerr was ahead of his time in bee research. He was highly respected by researchers world wide. Dr.Kerr did error in judgement in my opinion when he gathered together in another part of the world two strains of undesirable bees. He should have isolated the genes in Africa and brought the genes into South America but the world was a smaller place in 1957 and funds for bee research were in short supply. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:16:21 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Re: Dog House Hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >If anyone has expereince with drumming- I'd love to hear about how it works! Not particularly well in my one attempt. I had a wild hive in an old oil tin - sealed at top but rusted away beneath so the bees could get in and out but I could not get clear access. I attempted the drumming technique with no success - perhaps it is all in the wrists! One technique recommended by an experienced beekeeper to me where the wild hive is in a container is to place this in a larger water proof container such as a 44 gallon drum or a bath and fill slowly with water. The bees then have no choice but to abandon their comb (and brood) and because it happens slowly, they walk in one mass upwards where the new hive should be accessible for them to take up residence. In one case where bees had taken over an old suitcase I placed the case on top of the new hive with no lid and smoking as I removed the comb sent most of the bees below while I was cutting out the old comb and attaching to the frames with string. This is far preferable to having a mass of bees milling around forlornly until after the removal is completed. Always when collecting a feral hive, remember that you need to leave the hive in place with the entrances where the bees expect to find them, so they can settle and be moved during night-time after a day or so. Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Queen stock Allen is raising some interesting points. I do extensive requeening with the "best" queens I can buy, but am less optimistic than he concerning the likelihood of soon being able to buy open-mated queens with a high percentage of either hygienic or SMR characteristics. Before I explain, two Saturdays ago I had the privilege of attending the Kansas State summer meeting and hearing Marla Spivak speak on comparisons between her hygienic stock and Harbo's SMR stock. As most know, Marla is at the University of Minnesota and developed the hygienic stock that is becoming wide spread. She has since sold that stock to Glenn Apiaries, who is making instrumentally inseminated stock available to queen breeders and others. During the summer of 2000, Marla compared varroa resistance in hives with both hygienic and SMR stock. At the end of the summer she concluded that the SMR hives had better varroa resistance than did the hygienic hives. However, the resistance mechanics are different with the two stocks, and both traits are heritable, so the obvious question is whether resistance truly superior to either might result from cross-breeding. She is setting out to answer this question. This is all exciting and means that in "x" number of years we may have widespread resistance. I buy most of my queens from Pat Heitkman and have been recommending him to others for several years. He, and his son, are running a quality operation right from buying the right II (instrumentally inseminated) stock through to knowing how to use the Post Office rules most effectively. However, Heitkman has the same limitation as almost everyone else. That is, economically he must use open mating. His son, Russell, pointed out to me that the valley in which they are located contains several queen breeders and thousands of beehives. While all are not within drone/queen flying range, most yards are within range of yards used by 2-3 other breeders and their yards, in turn, are within flying range of 2-3 others...and so on. As an example of what happens, for several years Pat has been buying II stock that has been tested to have tracheal resistance. Annual examination for the past 5-6 years has never shown more than 4% tracheal infection. Accordingly, a couple of years ago Pat wondered whether it might be safe to stop treatment for tracheal, and had some open-mated queens tested that were from non-treated stock. He was astounded to find that his infection rates approached 30%! The reason, of course, was that the drones that some of their mothers mated with were not resistant. As of 2001, Pat continues to treat for tracheal. (However, I do not treat for tracheal and suffer winter losses of around 20% that I attribute to tracheal mites. I accept this, and continue to not treat as I am certain that I am assisting the area drone pool to gradually acquire resistance.) So...breeders will quickly use both hygienic and SMR stock in their programs and the best of the breeders will ship a large percentage of open-mated queens with these resistant factors. However, the realities (as I understand them) is that it will take many many years to get these factors into a large percentage of the drone stock that accomplishes the actual mating of the queens we buy. In the meantime, we queen buyers need to support the queen breeders who are trying...or they will quit trying! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:17:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Glenn West Subject: Re: Rebate or rabbet And while we're discussing woodworking terminology, it has always bothered me that some beekeeping supply vendors advertise boxes as being "dove tailed" when in fact they are "finger jointed". They are not the same joint with the same properties. Thanks. I feel better now... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 09:37:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Fw: Chinese Evodia Tree > A few weeks ago someone asked for a source for this wonderful honey plant. > I just learned that Connie Bright has 2-3 year old seedlings that have been > over-wintered in pots (the best kind) for sale. Three for $8.95, including > shipping. (Wow!) > > Send inquiries to Connie Bright, Box 32, Interlaken, NY 14847. > > I have no financial or other interest in her venture. > > Lloyd > Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment > for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. > http://www.rossrounds.com > Lloyd@rossrounds.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:44:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Don't buy and queens... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, Buy where you *can* get >straight answers and hygienic queens. I would try a few queens from several sources and decide for myself. Always a lot of hype from each queen breeder about their queens. > That was about a month ago, now. How are we making out? We are going to start grafting from SMR instrumentally inseminated breeder queens in August. All the hygienic breeder queens from the sellers of breeder queens have been as advertised. Allen the problem with keeping the production queens hygienic lies in the mating yards. If the matings are not with drones from Hygienic hives then the trait can be reduced by up to 50%. The same is true with SMR or Russian queens. > Have others on the list written or phoned suppliers to demand hygienic > stock? Most queen breeders in the U.S. couldn't keep up with the demand this year. Hard to demand when when the demand is greater than the supply. The problem with many queen breeders is they don't buy outside lines of breeder queens to incorporate into their lines they have been working with for years. Many do but are cautious about risking their reputation on the offspring from a queen from another source. What is your experience? Open mated queens can vary greatly. If I do not like a hives production or qualities I requeen. Many hobby beekeepers keep queens for years till the queen is killed by her daughters or swarms. I don't. I can't afford to keep a queen which doesn't produce *hygienic* or not. > Has anyone on the list done any side-by-side tests between commercial > stocks using the pin test or liquid nitrogen? Only on instrumentally inseminated hygienic breeder queens. < I should this it would be simple and enlightening for those who buy queens I'm hoping that within a year we will be seeing regular reports from > members of this list comparing their experience with queens they buy and > test, naming names and giving credit to those breeders who get with the > program early on. If you have good luck with a queen breeders queens then by all means send in your comments. Because of the varables with open mated queens I don't believe its fair to queen breeders to have each problem posted on the net. Almost all U.S.queen breeders have been in business many many years. Post the positive and let the Bee-L people choose. Example would be the last weeks comments on Weavers. All was positive about bees and service with one complaint about a SMR queen being a dud. I thought we were going to get a explanation why the queen was a *dud*? If the SMR queen was a open mated production queen I doubt the queens offspring would be able to resist varroa if mated with a inferior drone. Open mated changes the senario. Drone unknown. QUEEN INTRODUCTION PROBLEMS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM OF THE QUEEN BREEDER. DEAD QUEENS ON ARRIVAL ARE HANDLED IN MOST CASES BY THE POST OFFICE THROUGH INSURANCE. > AFAIK, in the US, Pat Heikam is an early convert to the hygienic way of > doing things. I am hoping that this is resulting in better prices and > strong demand for his queens. Who else has hygienic stock, and have > members confirmed this with their own testing of the progeny? I believe Pat is sincere about his search for hygienic bees. The proof as Allen says IS in the testing. I plan to do some testing only not today or this week. Maybe I will this fall. Surely I will get my hygienic testing done next spring. > If not, then why not? Spending time I should be testing up on Bee-L. Is there a *Bee-L patch* for Bee-L addiction? > Let's hear some feedback. I imagine you have heard enough from me. One more week of *light duty* from surgery and back to regular working honeybees. Most won't miss my long posts but hopefully a few will. bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:57:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gary P Johns/ets/relat/Okstate Subject: How much flavoring for sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Esteemed beekeepers, I've seen several mentions of flavoring the sugar water before spraying one's bees. This seems logical enough. But no-one has ever mentioned how much flavoring (say vanilla for arguments sake) to use. 1 drop per pint?...two drops...three? I am preparing to make splits before long and would appreciate any suggestions. Gary J. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:30:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Texas Queens/ Don't buy and queens... In-Reply-To: <200106141350.f5EDoNP15825@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On the subject of Queens from Texas.. I'm always hesitant to share negative experiances- I only have a few hives, so my experience is hardly reprasentative.... A couple of years ago, I purchased several (About five, iI think) Buckfast queens. All were readily accepted, and were good, productive hives, tho not the most productive hives I had that year. The problems came the following spring, when I went to requeen these hives; None of these hives was willing to accept the introduced queen! I used every trick I could think of to try and get them to accept the queens, with very little sucess- they just kept balling the cages! I finally removed the poor queens, set up nucs, and introduced the queens to nucs full of very young bees. After the queens were laying, I was able to unite them with larger hives. It was a really troublesome spring- I had two of the meanest hives I have ever had to deal with, and two that were just troublesome. I dont think one of them ever did actually get requeened with my introduced queen, despite my best efforts to assure that they were queenless and queen cell-less. They stayed mean the whole summer, and tho they foraged like mad, you couln't get within 50 feet of them without being dive bombed. That said, I am trying another buckfast queen this year. (only one) and I am trying to keep an open mind. The hive is isolated from other bees, and I am going to watch the queen closely to be sure she is not superseded. I hate to clip and mark queens, but I may do so in this case. Ellen in Michigan. Bob & Liz wrote: . If you have good luck with a queen breeders queens then by all means send in your comments. Because of the varables with open mated queens I don't believe its fair to queen breeders to have each problem posted on the net. Almost all U.S.queen breeders have been in business many many years. Post the positive and let the Bee-L people choose. Example would be the last weeks comments on Weavers. All was positive about bees and service with one complaint about a SMR queen being a dud. I thought we were going to get a explanation why the queen was a *dud > Let's hear some feedback. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:00:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How much flavoring for sugar water? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somewhere I read that a bee's sense of smell was better than ours by a factor of 1000. It would seem to me that if you could smell any flavoring at all in your syrup then the bees could most surely smell it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:59:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob & Liz wrote: =============================================================== Almost all U.S.queen breeders have been in business many many years. Post the positive and let the Bee-L people choose. Example would be the last weeks comments on Weavers. All was positive about bees and service with one complaint about a SMR queen being a dud. I thought we were going to get a explanation why the queen was a *dud*? =============================================================== This was in reference to my earlier post in which I wrote: =============================================================== The only problem that I had with them was that the queen (one of the new Harbo SMR experimental queens) turned to be a dud. More about that in another post. =============================================================== Sorry for the delay in posting the explanation. Here it is. I'm *really* interested in feedback about what might have caused this (if you're so inclined - either on or off list). First the explanation for why I concluded the queen was a "dud:" She never did lay after she was released, and queen cells appeared almost immediately. I found her during two inspections, but within about two weeks, she disappeared. Was she a defective, or just "not accepted?" Or, was she "not accepted" because she was defective in some way? Here are the details for those who are interested: The SMR queen was purchased with a 2# package. I picked up the package at the breeder and installed it the next afternoon in a new hive (new top, bottom, deep body, & stand, painted white, on top of cinder blocks) with four frames of mixed eggs, larvae, capped brood, pollen, & a small amount of capped honey, four frames (new) with wired foundation, and a division feeder full of 1:1 syrup. The package was well gorged on 1:1 syrup prior to introduction. The four frames of comb were in the middle with two frames of foundation on either side. I pulled the cork from the candy end of the cage, and suspended the cage between the middle two frames of eggs & brood. It was a calm, sunny day and I used no smoke. The hive was on the end of a row of 4 colonies spaced about 4 ft apart. Two days later workers were seen returning from the field with pollen and orientation flights seemed to have ceased. Everything looked normal for a recently installed package, at least from the outs! ide. I didn't disturb them for a full week other than sliding the cover over far enough to refill the feeder three days after installation. When I inspected them for the first time I found the queen cage empty, but no eggs in the empty cells. They were well on their way to drawing out the foundation. I removed the cage and refilled the feeder. I did a quick inspection of the four frames of comb, but I didn't find the queen. Two days later I looked in on them again and found the queen roaming the combs, but still no eggs. I presume that it was the same queen that had been released from the cage that came with the package, but she wasn't marked so I can't be absolutely certain. I also found supersedure cells. I decided to cut the supersedure cells out in anticipation of getting a replacement queen. Three days later I inspected the colony again and found the exact same thing: queen still wandering the combs, but no eggs. Two weeks after installation I still found no eggs, ! and now no queen. The breeder personally placed the package in my car when I picked it up, and told me to be sure to let him know how they did since it was an experimental queen. He seemed sincere, and recalling this I called several times during those two weeks and left messages that I wanted to talk to him about the SMR queen and to ask his advice, but I never did hear back from him. The last time I left a message I explained why I wanted to talk to him, and I was reminded by the office manager that their policy is that they don't guarantee successful introduction, and that a queen would only be replaced if she was dead in the cage. I told her that that wasn't the case in this situation, but I still wanted to talk to the breeder to let him know what had happened and ask his advice on how I might avoid this problem again if I tried another SMR queen. I never did hear from him so I ordered a Russian queen from another breeder. I received and installed her using a push in cage over empty ! cells during the third week, leaving them alone for another week with the intention of manually releasing her. When I next inspected them I found that the comb had been chewed from around the push in cage (which now had several workers milling around in it), and no signs of the queen. And, obviously, still no eggs. I gave them another couple of frames of eggs & brood, hoping that they would try to rear a queen again (this time I would mind my own business and leave the queen cells alone), but they didn't. Needless to say, I wound up with laying workers & a bunch of spotty drone brood. Conventional wisdom is that I should have combined this colony with another one by now, but I'm determined to learn as much as I can (IE: My ego just won't let me admit defeat) so I decided to try the technique of shaking all bees out of the hive a couple hundred yards away to get rid of the laying workers, and try introducing a queen of more conventional genetic (Italian) material . My ! "experiment" is still in progress. Was the queen a dud or was she just "not accepted?" I though that if a queen was not accepted she was balled or stung to death right off the bat, and not allowed to roam the hive for a week or so until they decided to throw her out (or whatever they do with queens that don't function normally). And what might have been her problem, anyway? I understand that the genetic differences make successful introduction tricky (I'm fairly certain that's what went wrong with the Russian, no question there). But would that cause her to not lay? Or did I mess up by installing them on mixed eggs, larvae & brood? I've been doing it that way for years and haven't had problems, but this was the first time I've tried this with a "non-mainstream" queen. FWIW: Someone asked me earlier today if my issue was with the failed installation or with the breeder. My issue is with the breeder not returning my phone calls, particularly after he solicited my feedback. I also feel like offering to replace the queen, particularly in light of the acknowledged experimental nature of this queen, would have been a nice gesture. I'll not name names again. And I didn't warn anyone not to buy from this breeder, I only noted that I've chosen to buy elsewhere in the future. I like to experiment, and I was really looking forward to trying this particular SMR bee. I'm disappointed that it didn't work out. My experimentation continues, however, with three hives of Russians that I'll post a report on if anyone's interested. So far I've not noted any of the aggressiveness that others have warned of, but they're only one to two months established. Comments? Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:06:25 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: Iowa pesticide notification law Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, Any Iowa beekeepers on this list? Is this new legislation? And are there similar regulations in other states? Notification of intent to spray bee-killing pesticides does little to protect bees but at the very least does allow beekeepers to maintain records of what was sprayed and when. Big deal. Sharon Labchuk ************************** Wallaces Farmer June 14 2001 Pesticides and Honeybees Rod Swoboda, Wallaces Farmer If there is a warning statement on a pesticide label cautioning you about honeybees, as a pesticide applicator, you'd better pay attention to it. That advice comes from Joyce Hornstein, pesticide education program specialist with Iowa State University extension. In such situations, according to Iowa law, farmers and other pesticide applicators are required to notify all beekeepers within a 2-mile radius of the site of application. To determine the locations of beehives, you must contact the USDA Farm Service Agency (FSA) county office to obtain all registered beehive locations. You will be given the names and addresses of the beekeepers that have registered hives in the area. The beekeeper registry also may be accessed at the Iowa Department of Agriculture and Land Stewardship's website or by contacting Bob Cox, state apiarist, at 515-281-5736. You must notify beekeepers not less than 24 hours and not more than 72 hours prior to the time of an application of pesticide labeled as toxic to bees. "Following this rule is important in preventing unnecessary bee kills," she says. ©2001 Farm Progress Companies Source url; http://www.farmprogress.com/frmp/articleDetail/0,8055,2961+45,00.html -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:12:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Confused abaout hive design . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frank, several years ago a guy did a research report for Bee Culture on bee space practices of different suppliers. What he found was no two alike (as I remember)! But I don't remember any which had NO portion of the space below the frame. I believe the bees consider the space below the bottom of the bottom frames not to be part of the "nest" because slatted racks of all dimensions and pollen traps are not filled with comb. It is often remarked that if one puts a shallow frame in a medium super or a medium frame in a deep super, the bees will attach comb to the bottom of the frame above and fill the extra space (usually with drone comb). I think this illustrates how bees use and respect bee space. But they don't do the same thing between the bottom of the bottom frames and the bottom board. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:24:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to correct John Sewell, the very experienced beekeeper he mentions handled AHB in Mexico, not USA. And he did say that they are no worse than we are used to in UK. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:24:39 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Confused about hive design and bee space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank is right as a beginner to be confused. Here in the UK the most popular hive is the National which has bottom bee space instead of top as Frank describes. However many people recognise that top is more efficient and modify their hives or, if they build their own, make them with top space. They also buy second hand equipment which, of course doesn't quite match their own. Inevitably the equipment gets mixed with predictable results. I once inherited an apiary of home made CDB hives (an obsolete Irish design). The chap who made them was a craftsman. Everything fitted. Nothing was stuck with propolis or burr comb. They were and are a joy to work with and the bees love them. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:24:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The usual wing vein measurements to determine race are the cubital and discoidal indices. Have they been published for Apis mellifera scutellata? The measurements are easy to do if you use the scales published by the BIBBA (the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association). Slightly less easy but not difficult is to mount a series of wings on a glass slide using double sided sticky tape and projecting onto a wall. Use a ruler to measure accurately between the vein junctions and divide one number into the other with a calculator. Plot the results onto a graph and look up the book to see what you have. If you are computerised you can put the slide onto a scanner and enlarge the wings on screen or print out. Somebody is working on a computer program to do the calculations automatically. You can download existing software from BIBBA. This method is used to recognise ligustica and distinguish it from carnica or mellifera and to detect hybrids. It can be done in the privacy of your own home and you don't need to tell anybody the results if you don't want to. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:15:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > At the ABF > convention in Austin,Texas I found most Texas beekeepers use the *kick the > hive test* . If bees boil out and are aggressive they requeen by dividing > the hive into three nucs and requeening with European queens. The beekeepers > logic was simple. If they are that aggressive they need requeening anyway. > DNA tests are ok but they involve time AND many as Barry says are > inconclusive. In my opinion DNA is best used after a aggressive hive has > been destroyed which has caused a stinging incident to see if AHB or only a > swarm of bad tempered European bees were the source of the problem. Bob/All: I guess we finally agree on something - if the colony stings or runs too much, it needs work. - Thanks, John Edwards, USDA-ARS BeeLab, Tucson, Arizona ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:09:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Hamilton wrote: > We had Mr. Jackson from the Texas inspection program do a session at the > Nebraska > Master Beekeepers in which they mounted wings on glass sides, enlarged them via > a slide projector and measured wing veins (morphometrics) to quickly decide if > EHB or AHB What you describe is the simplest form of F.A.B.I.S. (FAST Africanized Bee Identification System), which was not designed to give rock-solid identifications of samples, but to separate out the shorter wing-length samples, which TEND to be the africanized colonies. It was originally meant to take the crushing load of bee samples off the bee forensic labs, and worked o.k. up to a point. Samples of bees which fail the test (by being shorter) are sent for full 25-character USDAID/Daly morphometrics, which can take 4-8 hours per 10-bee sample. FABIS tends to miss longer-winged ahb samples (which DO exist). Many people have suggested it should have been named FEBIS, for European identification. The State of Arizona, when using it to cull out longer-winged bee samples, set the break-over point at 9.05 mm. I believe they missed looking at some samples of longer-winged ahb by not setting it longer, but with several hundred samples coming in, it helped. Do not rely on FABIS for regulatory work. ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician "Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier" Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Agricultural Research Service - USDA http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:20:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Don't buy and queens... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lance, I should have probabbly sent my response off list but you gave me a choice and I believe others might learn also. First let me say your queen/package person should have at least talked to you. The customer is always right up to a point. I know queen breeders have got strict replacement rules but a unsatisfied customer hurts business. The queen breeder should have at least tried to analize the problem like I am about to do. I have no way of knowing *exactly* what happened to your queen. Because you posted such exact details I can offer my opinion. Only a opinion. Lance wrote: > First the explanation for why I concluded the queen was a "dud:" She never did lay after she was released, and queen cells appeared almost immediately. I found her during two inspections, but within about two weeks, she disappeared. I believe she did lay and possibly you missed seeing the eggs and I will explain as we walk through your post. > I didn't disturb them for a full week other than sliding the cover over far >enough to refill the feeder three days after installation. When I inspected >them for the first time I found the queen cage empty, but no eggs in the >empty cells. Now the eggs from the original nuc have hatched and are larva to old for the bees to raise a queen from. You were pretty sure you saw no eggs but I believe there were eggs UNLESS you didn't mention putting in a fresh frame of eggs in your post. < I did a quick inspection of the four frames of comb, but I didn't find the Two days later I looked in on them again and found the queen roaming the >combs, The important thing here is she was on frames of brood where eggs are supposed to go. I am always leary of queens on frames of honey or off in the corner of the box. Young queens tend to move about quite a bit until they *settle down*. >but still no eggs. I believe there were but you missed the eggs. Get the sun to your back and look closely. There should have been larva also. Because you built your nuc with a large amount of eggs and larva you made egg determination harder. Most start nucs with emerging brood. > I presume that it was the same queen that had been released from the cage >that came with the package, but she wasn't marked so I can't be absolutely >certain. I believe it was because you saw no queen cells and the time was to short for the bees to raise a new queen. You might have missed eggs but I don't believe you would have missed queen cells. >I also found supersedure cells. This tells me beyound a shadow of a doubt that the queen you introduced had layed eggs and because you describe them as supercedure cells that the bees had used larva from out of the brood rearing oval. > Three days later I inspected the colony again and found the exact same >thing: queen still wandering the combs, but no eggs. By now you should have had larva which are easier to see. > Two weeks after installation I still found no eggs, ! Because of the queen cells I believe she at least laid some eggs but don't understand the lack of larva if she did. The eggs had to be viable because bees are picky about larva they raise queens from (most of the time). When you graft 100 queen cells and the bees throw the larva every once in awhile out by 50% I know they are finding something not to their liking. About the best take is 95% but never 100%(at least not on graphs I have been involved in). > and now no queen. I can only give one possable senario. Whenever you see supercedure cells your queen is in danger. Supercedure cells indicate low pheromone production or the bees consider the queen defective. In plain terms she can be balled and tossed out the door at any time. I have no way of knowing if your queen had problems but supercedure cells are a excellent indicator. You didn't say if she was instrumentally inseminated. Many stories of introductions such as yours occur at times with I I queens. I have had queens from breeders start to lay the same day as released from the cage while others might wait up to one week. I have also (like you) had queens which never laid the first egg. Rare but happens. Introduction problems with Russian queens (and I suspect SMR queens) do happen. I and others more knowledgeable than myself don't really know why. > The breeder personally placed the package in my car when I picked it up, >and told me to be sure to let him know how they did since it was an from another breeder. I believe you should have had the chance to at least receive advice. He lost you as a future customer by not returning your call. This is a busy time . Try again later and at least get his explanation. So far you have only talked to the girl in the office. > I received and installed her using a push in cage over empty ! > cells during the third week, leaving them alone for another week with the >intention of manually releasing her. When I next inspected them I found that >the comb had been chewed from around the push in cage (which now had >several workers milling around in it), and no signs of the queen. I would have done a couple things different here. Laying workers were about to happen so I would have rebuilt the nuc with fresh frames of brood. I would have used sealed brood and put the push in cage over sealed emerging brood. .>and try introducing a queen of more conventional genetic (Italian) material . It is true certain queens are harder to introduce. My close friend and I worry when we introduce a instrumentally inseminated queens. I priced a top queen from the Ohio Queen Breeders the other day. Around a thousand dollars. Only guarantee is to arrive alive. Fifth generation SMR I believe Joe said. The current Marla Spivak II hygienic breeder queen has produced over a thousand daughters and is still laying. She was a bargain but wouldn't have been if she had died in the introduction phase. Chance you take Sorry if I embarrassed you by looking closely at your problem. You gave exact details so I could venture a guess. You sound like the type of beekeeper the craft needs. Your friend, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:18:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jim Stein Subject: Re: Bees and pets In-Reply-To: <200106131409.f5DE9wP07814@listserv.albany.edu> In <200106131409.f5DE9wP07814@listserv.albany.edu>, on 06/14/01 at 05:18 PM, "David L. Green" said: >We've got a cute photo of her with a bee veil on.... >Dave Green >An Aphid's Nightmare: >http://pollinator.com/gallery/June/ladybug.htm Do you have a URL for the Picture of the dog? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- jstein@worldnet.att.net -----------------------------------------------------------