From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:54 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB64C24ADC3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9R008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9R008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:52 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0106C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 215169 Lines: 4482 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 16:09:11 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The ongoing thread about bee space can be placed into perspective reading a few articles published by "Bee Culture". (http://bee.airoot.com/beeculture/) In 1995, they ran an article named "Bee Space? Or Space For Bees?", showing that "comb spacing" (and hence, the definition of the ranges of acceptable "bee space") is in need of massive clarification. Sadly, it was apparently ignored. This year, they ran an article named "Woodenware II", a review of all available "store bought" woodenware, where bee space compatibility was checked between all current vendors of supers, hive bodies, and frames. The results showed that most equipment is incompatible, and some is incompatible with everything, including more of itself. If even the people who make woodenware for a living can't "get it right", one must conclude that we have divergent points of view, all with some claim on being "right". The way such issues are settled in engineering is to negotiate a standard, and encourage vendors to comply with the standard. The "encouragement" most often takes the form of a logo that the vendors can use to show that their products comply with standards, and are hence, "compatible" and "standards compliant". You may think that this sort of effort would be a silly waste of time, but think for a moment about all the complex hardware and software that allows you to read this message. If every bit of it was not "standards compliant", you would not have Bee-L to read, and the internet simply would not exist. (Check out the acronyms ASTM, EIA, IEEE, and RFC on a search engine to see just how many standards there are for everything from nuts and bolts to encrypted data streams.) So, who wants to participate in drafting a proposed set of standards? Anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:27:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > So, who wants to participate in drafting a proposed set of standards? Anyone? Count me out. Standards are all fine and good, but only work when they're followed. Draft the standards, attempt to get all the wooden ware producers to adopt them and follow them. I'll be happy when you defeat that windmill. In the meantime I'll deal with the problem which is going to be around in the form of USED EQUIPMENT long after the standards have been drafted and adopted by every manufacturer everywhere. Aaron Morris - wondering if the standards will be metric or english measurements! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:21:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Problems introducing the queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lance Parr wrote of his problems getting a queen introduced to a new package. Bob Harrison correctly pointed out that the queen must have started laying at least a few eggs from which, as Lance stated, the bees started supersedure cells. Subsequent attempts at introducing a queen to the package also failed. The thing I wanted to add here is that occasionally one will encounter bees who simply will not accept a queen. Why I cannot say. Fortunately it is rare, but it does happen. And the only thing to do in that case it to let the bees raise their own. The hard part is deciding when it's time to give up introduction attempts and leave the bees alone. One should certainly cut their losses before the hive becomes a drone layer. An established hive (one with all stages of developing brood) allows more time to continue attemps. The pheremones from the developing brood help supress the egg laying capabilities of workers. A package is a different story. Since there is no brood, two attempts at queen introduction is about the best one should go for, and immediately after the first failure a frame of developing brood with eggs should be given to the package. The package will start raising queens on that frame, but that will keep them at ease until then beekeeper can attempt the second introduction. When the second queen arrives, any cells that have been started should be removed prior to the second attempt. Lance's Russian queen may have had a better fate. But if the second attempt also fails, especially with a package, the best plan may be another frame with eggs and leave the bees on their own to raise their queen. The resulting queen may not be of the best quality (a package may not nouish a developing queen as well as one would like), but a colony with an inferior queen is better than a colony that will only produce drones. Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to corronate a package! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:19:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Just a couple of comments. Bob commented about the issue of open mated production queens resulting in a lower level of hygenic behavior or SMR trait. In both cases researchers have done tests and have shown that the selected X nonselected cross shows intermediate levels of the selected trait i.e. not as good as the selected parent but considerably better than nonselected stock. Both were shown by this testing to have much better disease ( hygenic ) or mite ( SMR ) resistance than the nonselected stock they were crossed with. Bottom line: even if you don't control the mating you will get some improvement in the first year. Now what about the second year or third? Let me give an example that I have seen here in MN. I know a beekeeper who has gotten hygenic breeders from Dr Spivak for several years. He saw an improvement the first year but has seen much greater disease resistance after two or three years of purchasing hygenic breeders. Why? Simply a case of having more drones available in the mating yard that also carry the selected trait. So if you want to get the full benefit of these traits plan on purchasing selected breeder queens for at least 3 years or longer so most of your drones are also carrying the desired traits. You should see improvement in your stock during that time in the selected traits. Of course you also need to continue to select for other important traits but most of the breeders are also selecting for these. One last comment. In some cases the first generation cross will give better overall preformance due to hybrid vigor. My understanding of Dr Harbo's stock is that it is a somewhat inbred line selected to be crossed with beekeepers stock to bring the SMR trait into their stock. As such it could well result in the first generation showing hybrid vigor which may result in greater honey production etc. Be aware that this might not be as true of the second generation crosses ( selecting breeders from your own stock to cross with your own drones ). That said it is not a bad thing at all just something to be aware of so you aren't upset that the bees seem to loose some of their vigor upon supersedure etc. Remember what happened with starlines and what happens with buckfasts upon supersedure. A similar effect could occur with these bees. Purchasing a new selected breeder every year may help reduce this effect. FWIW So far I am pleased with the harbo queens but it is far too early to make any statement about how resistant they are. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:27:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... In-Reply-To: <200106141024.f5EAOOP10151@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I get queens from two sources. A major supplier in Hawaii and my > neighbours who raise cells. My neighbours are doing careful hygienic tests > on their breeding stock and are happy to discuss the results of their > testing. I don't know about the Hawaiians. I wrote my supplier there a > week or so ago... I received an answer yesterday and will quote from it here, inasmuch as I don't believe I am betraying any trust or revealing any confidences in doing so. I agree that we will not be doing ourselves any favours by saying nasty things about breeders or casting them in a bad light if they do not agree with us. We need to work together, and politeness and mutual respect is essential to doing good business. For the record: the supplier quoted here is my current supplier of first choice these days. His carniolan queens excel in wintering as well as honey production. I am hoping that the hygienic factor is increasing over time, since he says they are measuring it -- even if it does not appear to be the first consideration in their selection. (perhaps it should not be since, as he points out, the whole object of keeping bees is to make honey). Here is the quote: "The first hygienic testing I did was back in the 80's with Taber's method of frozen brood. We did that for several years back then. I started the testing again with the more recent publicity. We have seen chalk brood reduced to almost nothing, where it had been severe on occasion. We also have done years of testing for tracheal mite resistance with Medhat Nasar and now Robert Danka(USDA). Both of these areas have shown positive signs, but I do not think breeding will be the total answer. If it were, then AFB would not be a problem now, as so much breeding has focused on it for the last 40 years. It seems that most anything can be selected for these days, if we all remember to retain the "ol honey making" traits and genetic diversity. I am very happy with the T-mite progress we have made by testing breeder brood in mainland labs and selecting the best. Establish a breeder pool with those and then cross the lot with AI. The daughters of these queens tested very well, so now we are re-queening our drone mothers with these and selecting new ones for queen mothers next year. The progress that can be made with AI is amazing." I should mention here that I am much less happy with the Australian supplier I was extolling several years back, since the chalkbrood in the hives from his last batch of packages is as high as 30%. I gather he has not been using hygienic tests. That is not to slag all Aussie bees, since some of the best I have ever had came from there. Is the hygienic test catching on down under? Anyone? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ Adventures in commercial hobby beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:43:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John/All, > Bob/All: > I guess we finally agree on something - if the colony stings or runs too > much, it needs work. > - Thanks, > John Edwards, USDA-ARS BeeLab, Tucson, Arizona I am going to use this post to say something I have been wanting to post all through this discussion. I have got a close friend which is a commercial beekeeper in Nebraska. His father before. We have had long talks while crossing country bouncing around in bee trucks about Africanized bees. I always like the straight forward approach of the beekeeper . I want to post his viewpoint and a comments of my own supporting his viewpoint below his. His point of view:. What's all the fuss about? If they are not the kind of bees you want requeen. No such thing as AHB. Scientists separated those races and now can't tell them apart! I am curious what John replies back when the commercial beekeeper says the above? We have spent a huge amount of bee research money to determine some bees can be *very aggressive* AND some not. Is not this what John is agreeing with? <"no such thing as AHB"> Best example: 'Chads in election in Florida" Can our experts agree on what is and what isn't with certainty and what has the tests to do with aggression and running on the comb? Isn't this exactly the problem. A. mellifera S. has a distinct color pattern. What the USDA calls AHB does not carry the scutellata pattern from what I have been able to find out. Would you call a black bee Italian? Scutellata is the only African bee with serious problems *in my opinion*. After looking at AHb deeply and trying to read everything I could and now back to the start I have a hard time presenting researchers point of view to beekeepers. Maybe John Edwards will give his input. My Nebraska friend is a excellent beekeeper and reads Bee-L but is a lurker. I dedicate this post on AHB to my Nebraska friend Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:08:13 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris said: >> So, who wants to participate in drafting a proposed set of standards? >> Anyone? > Count me out. Standards are all fine and good, but only work when > they're followed. While the participation of every beekeeper is not required, how can anyone "follow" something that does not exist? Clearly, some group must create something worth following. One must start somewhere, sometime. The incentive to follow the standard would be clear - vendors that did so would be allowed to firmly state that their equipment was "Standard", and hence interoperable with other equipment. Beekeepers would have a choice, and would vote with their wallets. Since incompatible equipment is clearly a problem, vendors complying with standards would sell more gear than vendors who did not. Non-standard gear would simply be worth much less on the open market than standard gear. > Draft the standards, attempt to get all the wooden ware producers to adopt > them and follow them. The trick is to include the producers in the negotiation and drafting of the standards, just as has been done with every other technical standard ever written. The process does not happen in either an ivory tower or a vacuum. It works best when the craftsmen who make the products with their own hands can discuss practical issues with the people who use the products. In this case, it means getting sawdust on one's shoes. I think that the Bee Culture article alone should have been enough to act as a "wake up call" to the makers of woodenware. I would think that they would jump at the chance to eliminate the confusion, so that each vendor could avoid being viewed as "wrong" by some fraction of their potential customers. > I'll be happy when you defeat that windmill. So while you will be "happy" to see the effort completed, you cannot even summon up a kind word for the effort? This seems contradictory. If such standards had been adopted years ago, you would not have the problem, would you? How can one agree that there is a "problem", but dismiss any attempt to solve the problem as "tilting at windmills"? A pessimist says that the glass is half empty. An optimist says that the glass is half full. A defeatist says that the glass will be spilled. A cynic says that it matters not - the milk is sour anyway. An engineer says that the glass is twice as big as required for the job. One gets to chose one's approach, and hence, one's future. > In the meantime I'll deal with the problem which is going to be around in > the form of USED EQUIPMENT long after the standards have been drafted > and adopted by every manufacturer everywhere. One must start somewhere, sometime. Yes, it is a shame that the vendors of woodenware must be prodded to do the obvious, and it is also a shame that this was not done decades ago, but these are not reasons to endure, ignore, or perpetuate the problems. > Aaron Morris - wondering if the standards will be metric or english > measurements! An entertaining little straw-man argument, but it should be obvious to even the casual observer that there is little or no need for "planet-wide standards". There is very little potential for the movement of hives between New Zealand and the USA, for example. Anyway, New Zealand seems to be one of the few places on the planet where rational, non-fuzzy thinking about this issue has been done! They seem to have a workable start at a standard for those locales where lumber is milled to metric dimensions. Woodenware is not the sort of item that is often shipped from one end of the planet to the other, since the shipping tends to cost more than the product. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:55:56 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I am surprised that there is no "standard" for woodware in USA. In UK we have had standards for 120 years... Sadly there are few that adhere to them. But apart from "standards" (or lack of them) there seems to be a decline in "quality" over recent years. I am referring to the seasoning of timber, its accuracy and repeatability of cutting, and the smoothness of machining. Well made joints enhance the resale value, but many hives I have seen in photographs recently have gaps and mismatches of as much as 1.5 mm (1/16"). The production tolerances in my manufacturing system was plus or minus 0.1 mm (0.004") which was not difficult to maintain. I would have expected the modern robotic machines to equal or better that. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:34:39 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All > The measurements are easy to do if you use the scales published by the BIBBA > (the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association). Slightly less easy but > not difficult is to mount a series of wings on a glass slide using double > sided sticky tape and projecting onto a wall. For those that want to do the morphometry for themselves, there is some information that starts from:- http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/morphometry.html There are instructions on how to do the various tests and there are Herold fans and discoidal card that can be printed. Wing mounting is also covered. There is one important point that I have yet to add to my pages. The projector must be totally perpendicular to the wall in both the horizontal and vertical plane or the resulting data will be corrupted. I would be interested in any well defined characters of AHB or AM Scutellata that I can add to my database. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:42:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Digger Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? In-Reply-To: <200106151614.f5FGEhP29502@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- James Fischer wrote: > Aaron Morris said: > > >> So, who wants to participate in drafting a > proposed set of standards? > >> Anyone? > > > Count me out. Standards are all fine and good, > but only work when > > they're followed. > > While the participation of every beekeeper is not > required, > how can anyone "follow" something that does not > exist? > Clearly, some group must create something worth > following. > One must start somewhere, sometime. There is a generic quality standard that could be used to establish processes and procedures for beekeeping generally, and to establish standards for suppliers. I am thinking of ISO 9000, a widely used quality system. The power of any standard lies in the number of folks choosing to comply. With sufficient numbers and a "value-added" system, suppliers would find that they had to comply to acquire and keep customers. Such a quality system could also be used to assure consumers that the bee products they buy meet a standard of purity. This would address more than woodwork, of course. Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:13:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MCARTER@EVB.UOGUELPH.CA Organization: University of Guelph Subject: Re: National Organic Standards In-Reply-To: <200012211813.NAA15445@ccshst09.cs.uoguelph.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Here is another example. I wonder if the address for Medhat Nasr is correct. On 21 Dec 00, at 12:09, Mark Coldrion wrote: For those of you who want to read the National Organic Standard posted in today's Federal Register, but don't know where to find it, go to the following address: http://www.access.gpo.gov/su_docs/aces/aces140.html Then go to the search section midway down the page and search for 12/21/2000 with a maximum records return of 200. After the page comes up, search that page for the word organic. You should find three items. If you need more help, just email me. Mark (The Little/Coldiron Farm) If what you're doing seems too hard..., You're probably doing it wrong. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:20:26 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Cushman wrote: > I would be interested in any well defined characters of AHB or AM Scutellata > that I can add to my database. Wow, Dave - tremendous page !! Do you have a copy of Daly and Balling's original (1978) paper which lists the characters they used?? If not, I might be able to find mine and send you a copy or scan. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:08:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > What's all the fuss about? If they are not the kind of bees you want (then) > requeen. I agree > No such thing as AHB. Scientists separated those races and now can't tell > them apart! Sorry, Bob, anecdote and rumor > > I am curious what John replies back when the commercial beekeeper says the > above? I would say that I have great respect for commercial beekeepers, having known them since I was born and worked with them cooperatively since 1964. Miles Wedgeworth, the Bensons, Jim Smith, Joe Moffett, and Lenard Hines have been some of my teachers. By the way, where are you, Joe?? Why not get online in these groups - I know you are out there. > > Isn't this exactly the problem. A. mellifera S. has a distinct color > pattern. What the USDA calls AHB does not carry the scutellata pattern from > what I have been able to find out. Would you call a black bee Italian? I have seen workers here try to separate bees by color - although very visible and seemingly simple, it does not seem to be a reliable method. > Scutellata is the only African bee with serious problems *in my opinion*. Probably because the others have not been put in the unique situation that developed in Brazil. Who knows what other interactions could develop. Ask the Aussies about cane toads. > After looking at AHb deeply and trying to read everything I could and now > back to the start I have a hard time presenting researchers point of view to > beekeepers. Maybe John Edwards will give his input. As they say, "I'm not a cowboy, I just found the hat". Have you noticed the lack of govt. Ph.D.s in these discussion groups? I am a meager research technician with a degree in Entomology from the Univ. of Arizona, not a research scientist. During my posts, I have tried to set the record straight on some issues in which I have a little experience and training. I have always considered research issues with a grain of salt, having grown up with a cotton farmer (and Texan) father who was not impressed with the efficiency of the govt. It really disturbs me to be the only person on one side of the fence in some of these discussions on the bee lists. > My Nebraska friend is a > excellent beekeeper and reads Bee-L but is a lurker. Maybe the lurkers, many of whom are very experienced beekeepers, can start posting. It would help us all to get as many points of view as possible. > I dedicate this post on > AHB to my Nebraska friend > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison > Odessa, Missouri ----------------------------------------------------------- John F. Edwards Biological Lab. Technician Carl Hayden Bee Research Center Agricultural Research Service - USDA Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/home/edwards/edwards.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:03:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I appreciate standards and think we have them already but within some specific companies and even between some companies. But as soon as you set up official standards between companies, you increase the cost appreciably. Especially with all the variables that are associated with wood. Go to any lumberyard and you will find dimensional differences even is the same lots. I have boxes built from lumber from different yards that have different internal dimensions because of the planing and sanding differences between yards. If we built all our hives of a better dimensionally stable material, then standards would work, but even then, would cost because of the better material, closer tolerance machines and quality control to the standard. Who sets the standard? I have always been of the opinion that when two beekeepers meet to talk you have at least three opinions on proper beekeeping. And who enforces the standard? Please do not say the government. Finally, we are not talking precision machining but building wooden boxes and frames. And we want them cheap and close enough to swap with occasional burr comb. Which is exactly what we are getting. I, for one, have no problem with any of the equipment I have bought from Kelly and Dadant. And do not want to pay a lot more for marginal, if any, improvement. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Don't buy and queens... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, That's the type of answer Lance should have received from his breeder. The only comment I can make is the girls Marla Spivak & Sue Cobey are going to jump all over Pat for using the letters AI instead of II. As they told me years ago. Artificial insemination is for cattle. Instrumental insemination is for bees. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:29:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CSlade777@AOL.COM wrote: > If you are computerised you can put the slide onto a scanner and enlarge the > wings on screen or print out. Somebody is working on a computer program to do > the calculations automatically. You can download existing software from > BIBBA. > > This method is used to recognise ligustica and distinguish it from carnica or > mellifera and to detect hybrids. I hate to be a "spoil-sport" about this, but several people are describing the European-developed morphometrics methods, using a few of the 25-characters in USDAID. The Baton Rouge BeeLab and a contractor spent probably 10 years refining Howell Daly's method for dealing with the specific problem of separating AHB and EHB, using thousands of 10-bee samples. If you will seek out and read the publications on this computer-aided method, you will begin to appreciate the statistical weightings given to the various characters, leading to the eventual separation of the two groups. I am aware that Dr. Ruttner and others have, in the past, measured bees using up to 50 characters, but many of these characters were not significant in helping separate the target bee lines. The USDAID program was originally only available to regulatory and identification organizations, but I don't know why Baton Rouge would not give copies to the public. The equipment might be a problem, as the microprojector used cost (in 1988) $400., digitizing easel is about $400., and the two flat-field Zeiss Planar lenses cost a total of $1500. Scans and screen measurements were considered, but are just not accurate or precise enough. After calibrating, the data is input with a digitizing puck, and the program encodes the data in a form which cannot be changed. I am not trying to be argumentative, but it seems that most people are not aware of the years of work and expertise which Professor Daly of UC-Berkeley and the Baton Rouge USDA lab put into the development of this program, choosing instead to rely on anecdote and rumor. These are honorable people, with no agendas other than accurate answers to a very complicated identification. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? Comments: To: jfischer@supercollider.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James & All, > The incentive to follow the standard would be clear - vendors that did > so would be allowed to firmly state that their equipment was "Standard", > and hence interoperable with other equipment. Because each maker woodenware is not exactly alike how do you decide the standard ? The differences really don't have a big effect on beekeeping. The bees simply don't care. Many makers of woodenware are tooled up to the specs of the largest customer. Fact! Because these guys buy amounts of woodenware beyound our wildest dreams and they keep the price of woodenware down for the hobbiest. When they are gone buying beekeeping woodenware could get expensive. I believe Kim did the story in Bee Culture so if you have got a complaint about bee space in your equipment you can look through the article and find a maker which is closer to your specs. < Since incompatible equipment is clearly a problem > I don't see the woodenware sold today by all the makers as incompatible. Not all cut alike but certainly not *incompatible* from my viewpoint. The only adjustment I have had to make to some woodenware has been to change the shelf depth. Years ago woodenware was put out with a low shelf depth so a metal frame rest could be used. Walter Kelley was responsible. To be exact: The deep bodies were 9 9/16 deep and take the 9 1/8 frames. On Kelley boxes the top inside ends were rabbeted out 7/8" deep so they would take the metal frame rests *which prevent the top bars from being propolized down*. Many beekeepers removed these metal frame rests in later years. Then complained about burr comb. DUH! There are two possible solutions for these boxes which are plentiful today in all parts of the U.S. Use a wooden strip about the size of removable strip on a wedge top bar. Cut the top of the box down or use metal frame rests The wooden strip was my solution. Non-standard gear would simply be worth > much less on the open market than standard gear. Homemade non-standard gear is worth less. I have not seen any large amounts of beekeeping woodenware(used) sell for less because of the maker. I look out for those Kelley boxes because I know I will have to add a wooden strip if the metal frame rests are missing.but all else works great. James wrote > A pessimist says that the glass is half empty. > An optimist says that the glass is half full. Bob added: A pessimist is a disappointed optimist > One must start somewhere, sometime. Yes, it is a shame that the vendors > of woodenware must be prodded to do the obvious, and it is also a shame > that this was not done decades ago, but these are not reasons to endure, > ignore, or perpetuate the problems. Good luck with your cause James. I like Aaron will watch from the bleachers. Woodenware makers will be happy to oblige AS LONG AS THEY DON"T HAVE TO SPEND MONEY or lose a valuable customer which uses those specs for a reason. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:49:28 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Removing attic colony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone asked: >I'm looking for advice in successfully removing and relocating a colony >that is occupying space in the attic of a very old house. The owners called >me as they where aware of my apiary. My bee vacuum used in these situations is a small canister vacuum that is connected to a 5 gallon bucket. The bucket has the air intake from the vacuum and a large hose to suck up the bees. The bucket is padded with foam on the bottom. It also has a pressure valve (read standard faucet that can be set to full open or nearly closed) to dampen the suction from the vacuum. I vacuum all the bees in sight and hope that I don't kill the queen. Then I cut and remove the comb using a plaster scraper, rubber-band brood comb into frames and watch and remove the transferred comb as the hive becomes established. THe bucket of bees is not dumped into the hive until I get home. >Is a shop-vac a solution to this extraction? Can bees survive that sudden >stop at the end of the shop-vac ride? The valve dampens the effect of bees being sucked at high speed into a plastic bucket. Carol Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:27:49 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All, As someone who loves the drive to Navasota I have to say that managed bees are managed for behavior as well. Weaver bees are used by many of us in Austin and we have never had behavior problems or AHB problems with package bees. Carol Malcolm Austin, TX USA >Hello Pasha & All, >> Does anyone have info on package bees from south texas? I mean behaviour >issue. >I have been waiting a long time for this post. I expected the post years >ago. I personally have heard of no behaviour problems with packages from >Weaver Apiaries in Texas and many of those are sent into our area. South Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:27:28 -0400 Reply-To: Honeybees@inorbit.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: easy honey vinegar In-Reply-To: <200106110232.f5B2W5P10985@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Layne and All, The word vinegar means "sour wine". Aceter bacteria convert alcohol to acid. You can make mead without a lot of expensive equipment, a gallon jug and a one dollar fermentation lock with cork is all that You really need. It will be much simpler and more predictable to ferment the honey before adding vinegar "mother". Good luck, Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA 41.56 N 71.17 W LibBEE@email.msn.com The better tasting the wine is the better the vinegar will be. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:50:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bees and pets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/14/01 11:48:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jstein@WORLDNET.ATT.NET writes: << Do you have a URL for the Picture of the dog? >> http://pollinator.com/gallery/beekeepersdog.htm Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:14:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stephen Augustine Subject: Excluding the Queen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am fairly new to beekeeping and fairly new to this list. To that extent I'm guessing that some of the questions I will pose have been discussed numerous times on this list before but I will ask anyway (I did search the archives though). My questions have to do with investigating alternative methods for keeping the queen down in the brood boxes without using excluders. I am currently using metal excluders and in my somewhat careful observation it appears that the workers have to fairly squeeze themselves through to pass the excluder. In fact it appears that some workers might even be unable to get through because of individual variation in size. Given this observation it is immediately apparent why excluders deter the free movement of workers through the hive. 1. So, are there other possible ways to exclude the queen yet not impede the workers? Yes, a barrier of several full frames of honey does seem to work (though I have known a queen to cross even that barrier) for the most part but keeping a full super of honey on at all times is sometimes not desirable or even possible. 2. Has someone ever tried using a slatted rack as a queen excluder? That is, might a slatted rack provide some unknown space to the queen that she might not cross? If not a slatted rack, might there be some other device like that that might work? 3. How about providing a second entrance, at the level of the first super of say 3/4 inch in height. That is, a regular wide entrance to the hive which also provides then provides a space of 3/4 inch between the top deep and the first super which will be bright and airy. Might this help to both relieve congestion and deter the queen from going up past that open space? 4. I saw that some folks recommend placing the queen excluder cross-wise so that the front and back of the hive are open to free movement but the queen will stay in the middle. Is this known to work? Any thoughts or insights? Stephen Augustine Bees By The Bay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:39:40 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Digger Subject: Standards... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There is a generic quality standard that could be used to establish processes and procedures for beekeeping generally, and to establish standards for suppliers. I am thinking of ISO 9000, a widely used quality system. The power of any standard lies in the number of folks choosing to comply. With sufficient numbers and a "value-added" system, suppliers would find that they had to comply to acquire and keep customers. Such a quality system could also be used to assure consumers that the bee products they buy meet a standard of purity. This would address more than woodwork, of course. Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 00:37:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Apiarist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens, commentary on Russian queens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bee meeting comments on installing Russian queens was to wait 24 hours after installing package, then install the queen cage. Hobbyist who followed this advice reported great brood production with whole frame being filled to each edge with perfect formation of caps. No elaboration was made on why the wait to install the queen. We tried Russian queen and package bees as well, and did not follow this (cause we did not know about it) and still did ok. - Emily Johnson, Michiana Bee. Assoc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:52:04 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Woodenware Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We used to have a Standard in the UK, but alas no longer due to "non participation by the beekeeping world" (to stay in force a British Technical Standard must have an active participating committee from the industry involved). The old BS has now been struck from the BS records. It was quite good, outlining box sizes and frame sizes, foundation sizes etc and of course people still use sme of the dimensions, however there were areas missing or at least suspect and I suspect the folk memories and faded BS copies are getting rarer and rarer. It still surprises me how much variation there is in basics such as e.g. frame top bar width - the correct width is 1 and 1/16" for 1and 3/8" frame spacing, many UK suppliers make the top bars 7/8" (except on "large" frames where they provide the larger bar- the bees always attempt to build comb between these narrow bars, similarly with bottom bars where notched wider bars allow the bees to keep things so much neater. We certainly needed a Standard in UK, having at least 7 hive types to contend with - British National, WBC(a twin walled aberration),both bottom bee space, Smith (the Scottish top bee space entry-designed for carrying up heathery hillsides for heather migration) British Commercial (the UK "large" hive-bottom bee space but sometimes top ), Wormit(a rebated edge wall hive -almost impossible to get into once the bees had glued-up) and of course the American Langstroths and Dadants. There are innuberable others (I confess to having made one myself-a "deep" Smith with Commercial frames) Only the Wormit seems to have truly died a death. Hive inventing seems to be an endemic disease in the UK. Woodenware standards are of course influenced by the sawmill trade -I believe the USA standard for a dressed (planed) 1" pine board ended up being "nailed down" at 3/4" (a bit thin by modern Consumer Association thinking) whereas that for cedar ended up at 7/8"- since hive dimensions are standardised on outside sizes, there we have a conflict right away(UK cedar hives are always a bit tight inside). Alan Riach Edinburgh,Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 03:07:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... In-Reply-To: <200106151332.f5FDWbP23489@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...Bob commented about the issue of open > mated production queens resulting in a lower level of hygenic > behavior or SMR trait. In both cases researchers have done tests and > have shown that the selected X nonselected cross shows intermediate > levels of the selected trait i.e. not as good as the selected parent > but considerably better than nonselected stock. Both were shown by > this testing to have much better disease ( hygenic ) or mite ( SMR ) > resistance than the nonselected stock they were crossed with. Bottom > line: even if you don't control the mating you will get some > improvement in the first year. That is encouraging. I would also like to add that the belief that perfection may not be achieved immediately -- or ever -- is no reason not to start in that direction. For that matter, no one knows exactly what degree of hygienic behaviour (HB) is desirable, and if it can be overdone. Maybe, in the extreme, it has a downside. Maybe a consistent 50% is all we need. Maybe even 20% across the board (or even just eliminating those that score near zero) can make a huge difference -- or mean the difference between never seeing any AFB and having a bonfire. People are assuming that scoring 100% on the HB test is desirable -- and necessary. It is not. I think we must remember that the HB tests are extremely rigourous artificial benchmarks, and no one knows what level of HB test performance is necessary to get some significant improvement in AFB resistance in real life. Apparently it does not take much HB to knock out all signs of chalkbrood. It is not hard to visualize how *even a little resistance to AFB*, and the resulting early cleanup of diseased pupae, could prevent spore formation in hives that have only an occasional diseased cell. This could ultimately protect the hive -- and perhaps subsequently the whole operation or neighbourhood -- from avalanching into AFB breakdown. HB is a finger in the dyke. As it stands now, some bees in circulation are very susceptible to AFB. Once the hives they occupy break down with a few cells, then the rest of the hive gets contaminated and there is a serious risk to surrounding bees, even those that do have a higher breakdown threshold. This is due to the high levels of AFB spores that have been incubated in the susceptible hives and which get distributed in the normal course of bee and human activity. Eliminating extremely susceptible bees from the general population by flooding neighbourhoods with increased levels of HB will make it much harder for AFB to get a foothold. AFB starts with one or two hives in a yard breaking down, then that disease is spread through the other hives by the beekeeper and the bees. If that initial breakdown never happens, then we will never know how we have been saved from disaster. Black and white thinking and an emphasis on 'perfection or nothing' can keep us from many worthwhile projects. In this case perfection is not necessary and perhaps not even desirable. A little improvement in resistance could save a lot of money, and constant pressure towards the goal of increased HB (together with determining an ideal level of the trait) will pay huge dividends over time. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ PS: I wonder what those using the current hygienic stocks are experiencing in terms of AFB breakdowns and subsequent cleanup. I also wonder what the perspective on HB is from those countries which do not permit use of drugs to prevent AFB, and if they are using the HB test to improve their stocks. As I indicated in a previous post, some Australian bees I have here demonstrate truly amazing levels of chalkbrood, so I am wondering if HB awareness is strictly a North American phenomenon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 06:33:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Removing attic colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Carol & All, Carol worte: > I vacuum all the bees in sight and hope that I don't kill the queen. Carol gives a very similar method to the methods we show in the *Midwestern beekeepers* bee removal video. I have done very similar removals My method is to start vacuum on the honey comb first and remove those bees. I then remove the honey comb from the nest. Then look for queen on each frame of brood before vacuuming. Look first on the outside of the brood comb. By removing a comb at a time very easy. Then lay the oval comb down with your finger and look at the inside of the outside comb and the outside of the next comb. Queen is usually on frame with eggs/larva. I have found the queen in most instances. Cage the queen. I agree with Carol on her method and like her idea on the bee/vac. Other bee/vac designs are in the archives. Finding the queen instead of vacuuming helps assure her survival as a certain amount of bees usually don't survive the process but Carols method will work with greater risk to the queen. Bees die in bee vacs the most when the weather is hot. Cool weather extractions are the safest. Allow plenty of time for bee removal. The removal which I posted in the archives took four hours from start to Finnish with a few minutes the next day to go by and vacuum a couple handfuls of bees. A big demand exists for bee removal services. Myself and my friends charge for the service and when the customer sees the amount of time spent and the professional manner you approach and accomplish the job they are happy to pay and will tell all their friends. Set a reasonable fee and don't sell your service short. Do a professional job and don't raise the price when done. If you underestimated the job. Do a better job of pricing on the next job. Take your time and leave a satisfied customer behind each time and a positive impression of the beekeeper and our industry. In most areas of the U.S.(if not all) you CAN NOT apply pesticides of any kind without a pest control license but I believe in most areas (if not all) you can do bee removal without a pest control license. Most pest control businesses are glad to refer bee removal to the beekeeper. We usually remove any wood we need to perform the removal and then TRY to let the home owner do the putting back. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:02:34 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all The adoption of standards need not cost anything... surely every company has a quality control system and I would expect that you have a "beekeeping manufacturers discussion group" I appreciate that... > Go to any lumberyard and you will find > dimensional differences even is the same lots. I have boxes built from > lumber from different yards that have different internal dimensions > because of the planing and sanding differences between yards. But surely that only applies to "home made" equipment. I would expect that your manufacturers convert and season their own stock to suit the exact purpose that is designated for. The precision and repeat accuracy cost a little more in terms of setting up time of machinery, but this is insignificant when taken accross thousands of boxes. It costs no more to make a "perfect" component than it does to make a "scrap" one. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:26:07 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Excluding the Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Stephen & All There is a Queen excluder method that does not rely on actual gaps... It is mentioned at the bottom of the page:- http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/excludertypes.html Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen Augustine ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:22:46 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Woodenware Standards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All It would still be possible to "shake out" a standard for Langstroth gear by recording the age and all dimensions from several hundred boxes... the consensus of dimensions and tolerances could then be statistically stripped out of the data. This consensus would then become the new "standard" which would be compatible with the majority and as time went on the new standard kit would dilute the non standard. Any parts that were drastically different could be adjusted to fit within the new standard or to be close to it. Perhaps the variable equipment that you have at present is so mixed that you have forgotten how much more easily bees can be worked with accurate kit that stays much cleaner when in use. There is a little information on the developement of British Hive standards on:- http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/hist.html There may be a few errors in it, that I would welcome corrections for. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:36:28 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? In-Reply-To: <200106151825.f5FIPWP03700@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]På vegne af Digger > Sendt: 15. juni 2001 19:43 > Til: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Emne: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? > There is a generic quality standard that could be used > to establish processes and procedures for beekeeping > generally, and to establish standards for suppliers. I > am thinking of ISO 9000, a widely used quality system. the ISO 9000 is just a factory qulity control system, where the factory sets the standards internal and get it confirmed national, but have to stand up to it afterwards. So standards in ISO 9000 can vary from factory to factory. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Updated 27-05-2001 Added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 00:38:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Deodato Wirz Vieira Subject: Re: Bees from South Texas Comments: To: "BusyBeeAcres@DISCOVERYNET.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Carol and all listers First let me apologize for the mistake of posting a “No subject” message. I noticed the fact too late to correct it. And second, I’ll try to make my answer as short as possible, but it will still be long, or it won’t cover even the essentials. June 15, 2001 Carol wrote >What we thought was that it was like domesticating any creature...take the most agreeable/gentle AHB and breed from them, then manage for the rest of the problems. It sounds like you are working hard to manage for good characteristics, < Up to this point, all well all good, you thought right, it is the way most people are trying to do. But they are starting from a base consisting in exactly what George Imirie tells us NOT to use, that is, swarms of unknown origin, from the woods, inbred, and of unknown ancestry. So we don’t know if (and in which percentage) they will be transmitting their characteristics to their progeny, if at all. How long will it take to breed something consistent from that? What do the beekeepers do in the meantime? >but I wonder if you have a way to know if you are managing AHB or EHB?????< I certainly DO know that I am managing EHB (by the way, I used AHB only because it is common usage, I usually refer to these bees as UOB (Unknown Origin Bees) irregardless of the actual race of their ancestry, since I cannot prove it). And I DO know my bees for what they are, because my queens are daughters of imported queens produced by queenbreeders of long standing (second generation, breeding in the same area for 55 years) and tradition. These queens are mated to the drones present (including some UOB drones) in the area, but since there is a determined effort of the queenbreeder in the production of drones of EHB, you can get up to 90% of EHB drone presence in the fecundation (I use only carniolans because it is easier to determine the purity of the queen’s fecundation by the color of the adult bees). Needless to say that I don’t raise new queens from these queens, I buy ALL my queens. >Please let me know. I am in Texas and AHB is here...but now that the feral bees have bounced back from Varroa, we wonder if the swarm we catch carry AHB plus varroa resistance. We requeen or destroy very aggressive swarms but keep and sometime get large honey production from "grouchy" bees that test as EHB.< >Could they be very diluted AHB? What do you think?< I agree with a recent posting to the list, saying that if they are aggressive, they need to be worked... Which is not exactly what Mr. Imirie would say, he would be even stricter.... And here, what I said above connects with another posting, by Barry in June 12, 2001 >How is it that there are supposedly these random boundaries that no AHB's have crossed? Example: No AHB's to deal with right around Navasota, TX, yet they can be found much further North, even in mountainous areas with colder climates?< This is easy to explain. Wherever you notice that AHB stop their advance, you can look for, and you will find a queenbreeder in the region. Not any breeder, but a breeder that produces drones (in quantity) to mate with his queens. It works like this: one of AMScutellata’s worst characteristics is the fact that it is a migratory bee. When a migrating swarm (sometimes with a virgin queen) reaches a region with a high density of EHB drones (only queenbreeders do this) the AHB queens mated to these drones will produce a colony that tends to stay in the same place, and not migrate. Look for other places where the AHBs stopped, you will find a queenbreeder in the vicinity. And this is what Bob Harrison said in June 12, 2001 >Tens of thousands of queens were raised and open mated between I10 and I20 and east of Navasota. I have worked with,transported and polinated with some of these queens and they are some of the easiest bees to work with I have seen in years. To set the reord straight about the Weavers. The migratory beekeepers in Texas probabbly raised more queens in Texas than the Weavers did. Any one of those could have brought back a queen open mated with AHB. The area in Texas most commercial migratory beekeepers use SHOULD have been africanized five years ago. Why the slow to a crawl of AHB? Are we as I believe Barry is saying we are seeing only a bee with a very small dna of A.mellifers scutellata? < These tens of thousands of mated queens could never depend only on the drones in feral colonies, so the queenbreeders had to have tens or hundreds of thousands of drones of known origin flying around. These drones are interfering, diluting the AHB genetics in the vicinity. BTW there were no queenbreeders of importance in Brazil at the time of AHB introduction, and even today, no queenbreeder in Brazil produces more than 6000 queens in the year if that. I don’t pretend to have been scientifically precise, nor to have exhausted the issue, I am only stating some facts observed by me and other beekeepers here in Brazil, and extrapolating them to the reality of Texas. Lots of ground is there to be covered yet. If you (and you all in the list) have any other doubt, or feel that I missed some point, I am certainly not the owner of Truth, please shoot away. Deodato Wirz Vieira (raising bees, not flying rattlesnakes) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Get your free e-mail account with *unlimited* storage at http://www.ftnetwork.com Visit the web site of the Financial Times at http://www.ft.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 10:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: adamf@panix.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adamf@PANIX.COM Subject: Breeding Bees for Varroa Tolerance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Howdy. I've been reading up on all the posts to bee-l and following the threads on varroa and breeding. We're working with several bee breeders using insemination and selection and observing varroa/bee interactions. Harbo's work to breed a heritable trait (SMR) along with Spivak, Rinder et .al with the Russians and the collective breeders of the HIP project working with hygienic behavior and general survivability brings us all lots closer to the time where we might be able to keep bees more easily with varroa mites in the colonies, on the bees. However, one serious aspect of breeding for tolerant bees that needs to be addressed along with varroa tolerance is the bee's ability to fend off the virus(es) that varroa mites (and maybe even tracheal) vector to the bees or activate within colonies. In the literature ( email me for a bibliography ) studies show that even after mite populations are lowered within colonies, virus levels may continue to rise, until the colony collapses. SMR and hygienic behavior is a great start, but selection must continue (and it does) with the colonies that have not only low mite loads, but then overwinter well. The HIP project uses a term for this called "untreated thriving survivor". UTS colonies make it through two years of varroa infestation. HIP breeders are not concerning themselves with the mechanism of the UTS colonies survival at this point, but just selecting for it. I think of breeding for varroa tolerance as a two phased approach: selection for low mite levels in infested colonies and selection from these colonies for survival in the subsequent years after queen introduction. Other breeders are trialing all the lines in the bee press: SMR, Russian, HIP, Minn. Hygienic and looking for pure and mixed combinations that provide healthy, productive bees that overwinter well and continue to produce into the next season. All this takes time, but progress is being made. With any bee stock you purchase from anywhere, the health and condition of the queen bears the most on the colony's performance. You might purchase a beautiful queen from an exotic pedigree of resistant stock, but if she's not been produced well or she sits in the mail for too many days, she's not going to do well for you. Chow for now. Sincerely, Adam -- Adam Finkelstein adamf@panix.com http://www.ibiblio.org/bees/adamf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 11:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Updating the world's Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, .In the 1992 copy of "The Hive and the Honey Bee" Harry H.Laidlaw wrote the chapter 23 which includes the section on instumental insemination of honeybees. At the start of chapter 23 (pg.989) Joe Graham writes about Harry Laidlaw, quote: Harry H. Laidlaw,jr., Professor Emeritus,University of California,Davis,California. Author of Contemperary Queen Rearing and internationally known expert on ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION of queen honey bees. Lets all see future books on beekeeping use the correct terms. For the archives: Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 years we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. In my opinion the 1992 copy of *The Hive and the Honey Bee* is one of the best books ever written on beekeeping. The 1992 edition is a step above the earlier editions in my opinion and Joe Graham, as editor, did a excellent job. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Metal frame rests In-Reply-To: <200106152022.f5FKMnP07871@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > On Kelley boxes the top inside ends were rabbeted out 7/8" > deep so they would take the metal > frame rests *which prevent the top bars from being propolized down*. > Many beekeepers removed these metal frame rests in later years. One local manufacturer still uses these - another does not. Why were they abandoned by those who ceased to use them? Do most folks use, or not use them? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 17:02:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: African bee briefing (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is a short-ish story for those who always believed it may be possible to breed (or at least heavily dilute) all the undesirable characteristics out of the African honeybee, and reinforce its best characteristics. In attempting to answer questions raised by Bob Harrison, et al, I’ve decided to try and run a summarised sub headed list of what’s going on with AM scutellata (“scuts,” as we call them) in one of its home countries. RACES There are two main honeybee races in South Africa, AM capensis, found in and around Cape Town. This area, the Western Cape, is one of only two small areas in Africa with a Mediterranean climate (winter rains). Scuts range over the rest of the country. There is, allegedly, another race in the north-east near Mozambique. Scuts are “yellow” bees and capensis “black.” THE PROBLEM Scut colonies are killed wholesale by capensis. Everyone has their own way of describing the phenomenon. Suffice to say that in practical terms, once capensis behaviour starts to dominate a scut colony, that colony is economically dead. In essence, all you need is a single capensis worker to get into a scut hive - rather like a robber bee. Given a chance (mainly stress, e.g., a power flow, or migration), this capensis worker dons the mantle of a queen. She starts laying as her phenorome output increases. The scuts kill their own queen, and that’s the beginning of the end. In cases of severe infestation, you find single cells with a dozen or more eggs. Of course, capensis is famous in the bee world for being the only race in the world in which workers can lay eggs that can be grown into queens. The obvious question: why not ignore the scuts, and run pure capensis colonies? The answer: outside its (small) natural range, capensis is a very poor second to the scut in every possible category, and a particularly poor honey producer. It’s doubtful South Africa has any pure scuts left; most colonies are scut-capensis hybrids. For practical purposes, however, a scut colony is instantly recognisable, and those bees are “scuts.” It’s difficult to know the extent of economic damage occasioned by capensis. The problem really started about a decade ago, when some beekeepers allegedly migrated capensis colonies from around Cape Town to the fabled aloe davyana winter flow near Pretoria. The initial destruction was such that the government paid beekeepers a certain amount for each colony lost. Today, commercial and other beekeepers continue to trap wild swarms, which are extremely abundant in certain parts of the country. The average life of these swarms - under migratory conditions - is estimated at nine months before capensis kills. Usually, up to two thirds of colonies migrated to a new location will fall to capensis. Each hive that succumbs presents the following problems: lost honey production; the bees must be killed; the brood chamber comb must mostly be removed, and the hive moved, restocked and placed on new ground. THE “WILD” SCUT Wild scuts just trapped are usually healthy and normal. After a few weeks in a ten frame Langstroth hive (the standard in this country, along with shallow honey supers) you’ll find the odd braula and small hive beetle. Seasonally, chalkbrood and EF may appear. There has been no known cases of AFB; nosema is rare and tracheal mites are never mentioned. Wax moths and hive beetles are management, not bee, problems. It’s probably fair to say that every swarm in the country has varroa, but commercial beekeepers don’t treat for it, with capensis limiting the colony life to about nine months. It’s known, however, that beekeepers with pure capensis colonies in their home range (sans a “capensis” problem) are being ravaged by varroa, and treat extensively for it. Anyhow, a wild scut colony is truly a tough thing to deal with. Open up one of these hives and all the smoke in the world often seems to just make the bees more angry. Without protection, one of these colonies will kill you. However, also bear in mind that wild scuts are erratic in temperament. You may be working a hive and finding that the bees are quite calm. Then, for no reason, they break into a wild attacking frenzy in a split-second. You pick this up in the bees’ sound, and seconds later you can feel the venom spitting onto your face where bees have stung through the veil. You must never show these bees you are scared, and never feel fear; they can smell fear. On some flows, the bees are very well behaved and not interested in stinging. But a few weeks later when the flow has dried up these bees will kill you. It’s difficult to say exactly what triggers stinging, given the scut’s erratic temperament. Having said that, work a number of hives at the same location, and you will notice distinct and different degrees of aggression from hive to hive. You could rate them from best to worst. A hive with capensis is not aggressive; when you open the lid, there is a dead sound. It seems that the bees already know it’s tickets; there’s nothing worth fighting about. SCUTS ARE UNSUITABLE FOR COMMERCIAL HONEY PRODUCTION The wild scut is unsuitable for commercial honey production for numerous reasons, including the following (in order of importance): peracute defensive behaviour; extreme stress from handling (including “sprinting” across the combs under examination, and overflowing out of hive bodies); massive stress from migration to new locations; weak levels of queen phenorome (double brood chambers are extremely rare; more so with capensis), and a well developed absconding instinct. THE APICROWN JOINT VENTURE For some 20 years, full-time scientist (biochemist) and part-time major beekeeper Lardus Erasmus has been breeding queens. He and I are currently involved in a joint venture to commercialise a type of queen bred by Lardus to exacting standards. For practical purposes, these queens are scuts. They exhibit the following characteristics: 1. Selection against capensis characteristics, and against any abnormal scut behaviour. Any lines exhibiting these characteristics were eliminated. The key factor to avoid was laying workers. 2. Hygiene 3. Disease resistance 4. Matching brood formation levels to nectar and pollen cycles 5. Very low absconding tendencies 6. Docility (but highly aggressive to robber bees) 7. Low propolis formation 8. A slightly larger bee, and to get larger in future bees 9. Excellent orientation to the hive An interesting behavioural characteristic that has arisen as an aside is that ApiCrown workers are very highly attached to their queen; almost “affectionate.” I have noted docility low down on the list, as it is seen as a normal requirement in queens of this quality. The anti-capensis phenorome levels are by far and away the most important characteristic in these queens, at least in this country. There have been questions over how phenorome levels have been tested; suffice to say that a combination of laboratory (mass-spectrometry) and practical tests have been applied. The latter comprised mainly the behaviour of workers bees towards caged queens. The genetic markers in these instrumentally inseminated queens are such that only daughters of these queens will be released. These daughters will be open mated and laying eggs before shipping. The original rootstock of these ApiCrown queens can be traced back to “normal” wild scuts. THE IDEAL SCUT We believe (in fact, already know) that these ApiCrown queens will produce colonies highly suited to commercial honey production. The bees are docile primarily in order to reduce stress - and second, to be kind to the beekeeper. When you lift a comb covered with bees from one of these hives, the bees remain totally calm and just carry on doing their normal work. Any time of day or night, you can pick one of these hives up and walk off with it, making even long-distance migration a pushover. If you stand and block the hive entrance level, the bees collect in a small swarm and wait for you to move. If you really want, you can open a hive lid and work the bees without using smoke. You may have a few dozen, at the most, buzzing around your head. A HIDDEN TREASURE CHEST? Capensis has wiped out any number of beekeepers in South Africa. Today, the wild bee is a hybrid, and capensis continues to destroy on a wholesale basis. Is there a silver lining? Perhaps: the hybrid has provided material that has enabled a scientific breeding programme to - hopefully - extract the best of the scut characteristics, and the best of capensis. The “best of” capensis is pretty much limited to a single factor: stronger queen phenorome levels. SUMMARY In terms of enemies (including man), the scut lives on the most dangerous continent in the world. Some animals and birds are so specialised as to have honey in their names, to wit, the honey badger and the honeyguides. Along with extremely erratic and variable weather, the scut developed into an highly adaptable and defensive creature. It lives anywhere, including underground and in the open, and can be found in a truly impressive range of geographical localities. The scut is probably the toughest bee in the world, coping admirably with new diseases. Its downfall, ironically, has proved to be another bee. THE FUTURE The ApiCrown joint venture continues to improve its breeder queens on a persistent basis. The current ApiCrown breeder queens have 18 generations behind them, and seven years of laboratory work and time-consuming field testing. Hundreds upon hundreds of queens have been culled. ApiCrown is also most interested in importing pure scuts from another country on the continent. Negotiations for this event are advanced; the main difficulty is convincing domestic government officials, possibly intimidated by capensis, that these scuts are simply intended for inclusion in a long-term genetic pool. AN INVITATION For all those booked to come to Apimondia in South Africa later this year, this is an open invitation to come and visit with these ApiCrown queens and their workers and drones. Just keep in touch by e-mail. Remember: veils and gloves are not required! Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa Lardus Erasmus bchee@puknet.puk.ac.za Potchefstroom South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:13:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fan Mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When you see a great post on BEE-L and you can see that someone has taken some time to research and write it, how about dropping a personal 'Thank you' to the author (not the whole list). I'm not thinking that *everyone* should say thanks *every* time -- or even often. BUT, *if* a particular piece is very meaningful and useful to you, a bit of appreciation will go a long way keep the good stuff coming. On the other hand, if you see something you don't like or agree with, please just delete and pass on. No one needs to be deluged with hate mail. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:35:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Idaho beekeeping In-Reply-To: <200106161325.f5GDPrP10648@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am looking to relocate in northern Idaho, and am wondering if their are in Idaho bee keepers on the list , that I could get some advice from. thanks preacher ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:58:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, I thank Barry for the excellent post. Although not a expert on AHB and not on a AHB experience level with Barry I am going to ask a few questions and make a few comments. > This is a short-ish story for those who always believed it may be > possible to breed (or at least heavily dilute) all the undesirable > characteristics out of the African honeybee, and reinforce its best > characteristics. I had my doubts until I read and reread the work of Dr. Kerr. I believe Dr. Kerr was always trying to correct the problems his release caused. He will go down in my opinion as one of the most talented bee researchers in history. > In attempting to answer questions raised by Bob Harrison, et al, I've > decided to try and run a summarised sub headed list of what's going > on with AM scutellata ("scuts," as we call them) in one of its home > countries. I believe we are on *the same page*. You with the actual *hands on experence* and me with reading every article about AHb I could get my hands on. Please correct me if I am not correct as I am trying to learn from you. > There is, allegedly, > another race in the north-east near Mozambique. Are you talking about a classification other than the 12 African races described by Ruttner (1975) Scuts are "yellow" bees and capensis "black." What are the color of your ApiCrown queens? > Scut colonies are killed wholesale by capensis. In essence, all you need is a single > capensis worker to get into a scut hive - rather like a robber bee. Given > a chance (mainly stress, e.g., a power flow, or migration), this > capensis worker dons the mantle of a queen. Does the Cape bee worker carry similar pheremones to a scut queen? A European queen? . Of course, capensis is famous in the bee world for being the only race in > the world in which workers can lay eggs that can be grown into queens I have read the above is true but if queens are raised from fertile eggs how does the Cape bee produce a fertile egg without mating? From laying workers we know all mellifera can lay eggs but not fertile. We also know any fertilized egg if cared for and fed properly can be made into a queen. Are Cape bee workers feeding larger amounts of Royal jelly to their brood to make the egg laying area different than the other races. Even so how are the eggs made fertile? Could it not be possible for cape bees to have higher developed reproduction areas similar to a queen and actually breed with drones. Has this theory ever been explored? I always look for the simple answer first. > It's doubtful South Africa has any pure scuts left; most colonies are > scut-capensis hybrids What is their color ? Is the color still a sign of the pure scut as it was when Lepeletier (1836) named them? .. > Anyhow, a wild scut colony is truly a tough thing to deal with. Open up > one of these hives and all the smoke in the world often seems to just > make the bees more angry. Without protection, one of these colonies > will kill you. However, also bear in mind that wild scuts are erratic in > temperament. You may be working a hive and finding that the bees > are quite calm. Then, for no reason, they break into a wild attacking > frenzy in a split-second. You pick this up in the bees' sound, and > seconds later you can feel the venom spitting onto your face where > bees have stung through the veil. These are the A. mellifera s. my fellow beekeeper have seen on trips to Brazil and Mexico. Dr. Kerr was able to completely remove all aggression from the scut by instrumental insemination and inbreeding. The fear was always that once open mating was allowed the aggression would return. > You must never show these bees you are scared, and never feel fear; > they can smell fear. I would say the statement is true of all bees but I am sure many on the list are going to disagree with us both. > On some flows, the bees are very well behaved and not interested in > stinging. But a few weeks later when the flow has dried up these bees > will kill you. Again the above is true with all bees except for the killing part with other races. All bees in hive so defence goes up. > A hive with capensis is not aggressive; when you open the lid, there is > a dead sound. It seems that the bees already know it's tickets; there's > nothing worth fighting about. I find it curious they have survived the test of time? I also wonder why the Cape bee brought into Brazil by Dr. Kerr did not survive in its pure state? >An interesting behavioural characteristic that has arisen as an aside > is that ApiCrown workers are very highly attached to their queen; > almost "affectionate." I believe this is simply because of the higher pheromone level. I see the above behavior by workers with young queen more so than older queens. I asked the question at a bee breeders meeting once if higher levels of pheromones was a trait bee breeders bred for. The answer was no because the average production queen was replaced before pheromone levels normally dropped in the U.S. The answer was most queens produce a enough pheromones to keep from being superceded for up to three years. My friend Murray from Scotland reports many queens laying into and through the third year. All his queens are marked. > The genetic markers in these instrumentally inseminated queens are > such that only daughters of these queens will be released. These > daughters will be open mated and laying eggs before shipping. Do your open mating areas consist of drone colonies of hives headed by I I queens similar to the breeder queens? > The original rootstock of these ApiCrown queens can be traced back > to "normal" wild scuts. Dr. Kerr said the bad traits of scuts could be bred out but mainly by inbreding and I I. You have taken longer but if I am understanding you correctly you have eliminated the bad traits by selection only. Or selection and inbreeding? > We believe (in fact, already know) that these ApiCrown queens will > produce colonies highly suited to commercial honey production. The > bees are docile primarily in order to reduce stress - and second, to be > kind to the beekeeper. When you lift a comb covered with bees from > one of these hives, the bees remain totally calm and just carry on > doing their normal work. > Any time of day or night, you can pick one of these hives up and walk > off with it, making even long-distance migration a pushover. If you > stand and block the hive entrance level, the bees collect in a small > swarm and wait for you to move. If you really want, you can open a hive > lid and work the bees without using smoke. You may have a few > dozen, at the most, buzzing around your head. Barry you *almost* make me want to order a few queens. My bees don't always behave. Surely you see a supercedure with a attitude once in a while? Be honest! The "best of" capensis is pretty much limited to a single > factor: stronger queen phenorome levels. Dr. kerr could have isolated this gene and put the trait in another bee. His research might prove helpful. Steve Tabor is a walking encyclopedia of Dr. Kerr's work and I believe would talk to you if contacted. Dr. Kerr and Steve were friends besides doing similar research. My friend and fellow beekeeper which worked with Steve at Bato Rouge in 1967 said Dr.Kerr's work was Steve Tabor's favorite subject. > The scut is probably the toughest bee in the world, coping admirably > with new diseases. Its downfall, ironically, has proved to be another > bee. In my opinion pure scuts in the U.S. will be rare indeed. The current ApiCrown breeder queens have 18 > generations behind them, and seven years of laboratory work and > time-consuming field testing. How much of the eighteen generations is inbreeding back to drones from the same hive? this is an open invitation to come and visit with these ApiCrown > queens and their workers and drones. Just keep in touch by e-mail. > Remember: veils and gloves are not required! These ApiCrown queens sound better than my bees. Thanks for the post Barry! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Dietz (1986) published a potential distribution map of AHb in the U.S.. I disagreed at the time (as did others) and disagree today. My reasons then were the same as Barry's about the AHb distribution in Africa. The map can be found on page 46 of the new *Hive and Honey Bee* and many other publications. Tooting my horn fifteen years later! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 22:20:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Metal frame rests Comments: cc: Frank@DWYERHILL.COM In-Reply-To: <200106180002.f5I02UP17070@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a few of these older Kelley boxes- the ones that require a frame rest that raises the frames up a bit. They are teriffic for stationary hives- the frames come free easily, making lifting out the frames easier. They do keep the frames freer than plain wood, but the grooves d tend to fill up with propolis after a couple years of use, making a bit of a mess, and reducing the effectiveness of the design unless you clen it out well. (Easily scraped out with a hooked frame cleaning tool, but never comes quite as clean as a plain groove- not important unless you are intent on getting the equipment clean, like I was.) I did notice, that when the equipment is new, or freshly cleaned, the frames are more prone to moving- which is an advantage if you are stationary, but might be a problem if migrating. When cleaning out and refurbishing this old equipment , I think I discovered why the deeper grooves have been abandoned by most beekeepers. 1. I had to remove the rests to get the equipment totally clean. The propolis and wax in the groove is really stuck in there- if the body is old, its easiest just to remove the rest, clean and sterilize the equipment, and replace it. 2. You to have the extra part, the metal frame rest, to keep the bee spacing where it is supposed to be. If you have equipment from more than one supplier, it is just another part to keep on hand, and to make sure it is in place only where needed. The boxed I "Inherited" were in excellent shape, but I cleaned them all thoroughly- removing all frame rests, scraping out all propolis and wax, singeing the insides, and repainting the outsides. It was only when I went to put frames in, that I discovered that some didn't fit properly- the frames scraped the ground when I dropped them in. It took me a bit to realize that these boxes needed the frame rests that lifted- So I ordered them from Kelley, and the problem was solved- but now I have another part on hand to keep track of, and replace if it becomes damaged. Installing frame spacers on the ridged tracks is easy- but here again, the part is different from the frame spacer used on the flat, L shaped rests used on most equipment- another part to keep on hand if you use them! Given the need for a parts, and the limited benefits of the raised shelf that the frames rest on, I can see why these have fallen out of use- The small advantage is probably not worth the extra trouble, and definately not worth the trouble if you are working large scale, with different types of equipment. Ellen in Michigan "Frank I. Reiter" wrote: Bob & Liz wrote: > On Kelley boxes the top inside ends were rabbeted out 7/8" > deep so they would take the metal > frame rests *which prevent the top bars from being propolized down*. > Many beekeepers removed these metal frame rests in later years. One local manufacturer still uses these - another does not. Why were they abandoned by those who ceased to use them? Do most folks use, or not use them? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:24:23 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? In-Reply-To: <200106151945.f5FJjlP06686@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The fault, Dear Brutes, is not with the set up, but with the lumber. With few exceptions, the dimensions will be pretty close when the stock is cut. Unless very dry lumber is used, there can be significant dimensional changes, especially with soft woods. Depending on the timing and whether the manufacturer bears the expense of aging lumber in his own yard, it's possible a lot will measure correctly when delivered to the Distributor but not when delivered to the customer. "Just in time" inventory control in the woodworking business just doesn't work anymore. There's too much pond dried lumber on the market. On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bill Truesdell wrote: > I appreciate standards and think we have them already but within some > specific companies and even between some companies.... > If we built all our hives of a better dimensionally stable material, > then standards would work, but even then, would cost because of the > better material, closer tolerance machines and quality control to the > standard. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:49:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Re. Mexican vs US AHB, Removing Attic colony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, My apologies for mixing up Mexico and USA. Is there a difference between those AHB colonies in Mexico, and those further North? Or from colony to colony? Last year someone posted the advice to use a red light in an attic removal, which I did and was grateful for the good advice. My apologies to the author for my mammoth memory (Big and wooly) I am about to remove a colony from an 8th century church roof. No woodwork to be removed, so it'll be as per that Mid Western Beekeepers video Bob Harrison referred to. Pictures are worth a lot of words, and are hard to misinterpret. Lots of pictures of real beekeepers removing real colonies on that video. John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:06:12 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Don't buy and queens... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Allen muses... > so I am wondering if HB awareness is strictly a > North American phenomenon. Here in UK we take the "Hygenic" issue very seriously and we have had work going on for a good many years. We also have work going on into "mite damaging behaviour" . At the end of last season the best of these two groups were crossed (in each direction) using instrumental insemination, the results from these queens are eagerly awaited. Which University is this happening at? Not a university but by BIBBA, a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs! This is not to belittle the excellent work that our universities do (Sheffield is outstanding) but shows that despite inadequate funds, sensible, useable work is still being done very professionally in the UK. I am a member of BIBBA and a similar group, GBBG in Ireland, but I speak here as an individual and not a spokesman. I am "blowing their trumpet" as I think that they are not lagging behind but are right at the cutting edge. Here are a couple of links that will give you more information. http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba http://homepage.tinet.ie/~eduard/ There is also an excellent colour magazine "Bee Improvement" which is published by BIBBA four times per year, no doubt this could be posted to USA with a minor extra charge for postage. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:37:51 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Metal frame rests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ellen & all > but the grooves d tend to fill up with propolis after a couple years > of use, making a bit of a mess, That indicates to me that either the design of the rebate that takes the frame lugs, is incorrect, or that you are using a strain of bee that uses excessive propolis. In UK our frame lugs are 9.1 mm thick and we arrange a for 6 mm gap underneath these lugs. The space above the lugs is either 8.9 mm or 1 mm according to whether "top" or "bottom" bee space is in use. The rebate is often (sometimes) coated with petroleum jelly. This may seem like "extra work" but I can assure you it saves many times the amount that it takes to do the original coating. > > On Kelley boxes the top inside ends were rabbeted out 7/8" In UK, in imperial times, we used to use 15/16" for this. This equates to 24 mm in modern production terms. We call frame rests "runners" in the UK and they are manufactured so that the frames sit 6 mm above the rebate "shelf" If we use castellated spacers these are also installed so that there is 6 mm under the lugs. We do not get the build up of wax and propolis that you are complaining of. Allowing the lugs to rest directly on the rebate seems like deliberately asking the bees to propolise. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 07:25:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: formic and bee health MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Are there any studies that show that formic acid cause stress due to = burning of exoskeleton of honeybee? Does formic (or other acids) reduce = bees ability to fend off viruses and secondary diseases on wintering = populations? Although bees can survive treatments does it cause as much = harm as what is being treated for ? Thanks. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:58:29 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/18/01 8:43:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG writes: > The fault, Dear Brutes, is not with the set up, but with the lumber. With > few exceptions, the dimensions will be pretty close when the stock is cut. > Unless very dry lumber is used, there can be significant dimensional > changes, especially with soft woods. > Many shops that work with wood use a gadget called a "Delmhurst Meter" to measure the conductivity of the wood and thus arrive at it's percentage of moisture. There are other methods that work such as drying a measured sample and comparing it to an undried sample. In as simple an oven as a light bulb heated coffee can or a microwave oven. Tables that list radial and tangential shrinkage rates for all species of wood in commercial usage exist courtesy of the forest products laboratory. Once back in the weather wood is going to move. And box shipped to the southwest is going to end up a lot smaller than one shipped to the humid east coast. I would rather things were on the large side myself, comb is easier to break than is propolis. A rod or bar that was removeable and held frames down in their boxes while the one on top was being pried loose might be more usefull. No doubt it has been tried and abandoned a few times before. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Metal frame rests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank & All, > One local manufacturer still uses these - another does not. Why were they > abandoned by those who ceased to use them? Many beekeepers thought the metal frame rests could be a place for American foulbrood spores. >Do most folks use, or not use them? When new they used the rests but on old equipment they were pried off and the boxes scorched. It was cheaper to slip a 3 1/16 piece of wood back in an fasten with nails than replace the metal rest. One or the other needed to be used. I have however seen a number of Kelley boxes with the metal rest removed and no piece of wood added in use in hobby beekeepers hives. Most did not know what the problem was until I pointed it out. They had been cussing the maufacturer for cutting the box wrong. As you correctly stated only the metal frame rest intended for the box solves the problem if you do not add the homemade wooden strip. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:52:10 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Richard > Unless very dry lumber is used, there can be significant dimensional > changes, especially with soft woods. If it is not dry enough in the first place how can it be called timber (lumber)? Surely it should be designated as "green" or "unseasoned"? Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:52:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Metal frame rests MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > When cleaning out and refurbishing this old equipment , I think I > discovered why the deeper grooves have been abandoned by most > beekeepers. Cleaning is infinitely easier if you first use a propane torch to heat the gunk twixt metal frame rest and hive body wall. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 08:28:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Excluding the Queen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" New this year (I believe) at Betterbee is an all plastic queen excluder that (so far) appears to blow away all others I have ever used. My assessment is VERY PRELIMINARY! I am just trying these excluders out on the recommendation of Bob Stevers (Betterbee owner). My VERY PRELIMINARY! assessment is based on the observation when I initially insatlled the first few of these new plastic excluders that the bees seemes to just slip right through them as if nothing was there! They were coming through the excluders before I had a chance to put the supers back on the hive. If they continue to perform as well, I'll be looking to get rid of a lot of metal excluders. Added benefits: CHEAP! (less than $4, as little as $3 each in qualtity). They're tough and won't bend to allow queens through wires that have bent. I am told they will clean up quite easily by putting them in the freezer and (once frozen) flexing them to break off wax and propolis. No extra space between boxes as there is with wood bound excluders. Easier on the bees - the plastic is very smooth and does not tear at wings or body (perhaps this is why the bees go through them so readily). Highly recommended! Aaron Morris - hoping I'm not thinking prematurely. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:07:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: rtaylor421 Subject: Cleaning hive bodies, supers and frames MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Over the past years I have observed different processes involed in cleaning equipment. I have experimented with a pressure washer. You start by naking a cleaning box which is bottom board and deep hive body with a screen front to cathch wax particles. Another screen section on top of hive body. then a shallow super with a queen excluder with another deep hive body. You can then set the frames in six of the frame rest. Start by cleaningf one side of the frame witrh a 15 degree nozle tuen it around do the other site anf then upo side down to do bottom of frame and the underside of top bar. All wax, propolis and other stuff is removed and the fraame is returned closae to its original color. Box es can be layed across the hive body and cleaned with the water pressure as well as groves. Very little scraping is left. Thanks for letting me share this with you Ron Taylor Lowcountry beekeepers Cottageville SC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 13:06:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Brother Adam, Scuts and Buckfasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I hunted down this weekend my copy of Brother Adam's _In_Search_of_the_Best_Strains_of_Bees_ to confirm (or not) whether he incorportaed Apis s. in the Buckfast melting pot. Indeed, he DID NOT get further into Africa than the northern countries. "His first objective was North Africa, but owing to the political tension reigning at that time (1952), he was compelled to restrict his search to Algeria and a few of the oases forming part of that country." In PART TWO of the book, Bro. Adam includes "AN EVALUATION OF THE RACES AND CROSSES." Included in his work are: Apis mellifera ligustica Apis mellifera carnica Apis mellifera cecropia Apis mellifera adami Apis mellifera caucasia Apis mellifera anatolica Apis mellifera fasciata Apis mellifera syriaca Apis mellifera cypria Apis mellifera intermissa Sub-varieties of Apis mellifera intermissa (the hybrids or what Dr. Roger Moses called, the mongrels) included: Apis mellifera major nova The Sicilian bee The Iberian bee The French bee The Nigra The Old English bee The Healt bee North-East European and North Asian sub-varieties The Finnish bee Apis melliferra sahariensis Note, no scutelata. In his conclusion Bro. Adam writes, "Breeding experiments up to the present have been confined to the improvement and intensification of uniformity of particular races, but these will never be adequate to meet the demands of the future. True the efforts made are of undeniable economic value, but at the same time the possibilities are clearly limited. Inbreeding brings about in the honeybee a seriour deterioration in vitality which raises unsurmountable problems in many directions. The synthesisation of new combintions by way of cross-breeding is, indeed, the only breeding worthy of the name. It alone enables us to actualise all the different potentialities involved. For it alone has the power of bringing together all the various races and strains with the desirable economic qualities, of combining these into new types of bee, while at the same time eliminating the deleterious traits, and thus producing a bee which will completely answer all the needs of modern beekeeping." I have been told in private conversations that some do not consider Brother Adam to be as great a hero as he is cast in the States. There are some who feel that Brother Adam did a good deal to pollute the gene pool in his native country and that perhaps the bee population would have been better off without his efforts. It is worthy of note that his breeding program would never be possible in today's times in the States. Look at how long it took and the protective steps taken to import Russian stock. I wonder if this is a good or bad thing. Cheers, Aaron PS: Less I forget, and as I've stated before, _In_Search_of... is a great read, and paints the best picture of the races of honeybees I have ever seen. The book is highly recommended!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:48:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Iowa pesticide notification law MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by Bob.Cox@IDALS.STATE.IA.US to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=CB1A4118) (85 lines) ------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:45:46 -0500 Thread-Topic: Iowa pesticide notification law From: "Cox, Bob" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" To answer your questions: This is not new and you can look at he list on the following website: http://www2.state.ia.us/agriculture/apiary.html I do not know any similar regulations in other states. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 19:38:26 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cleaning hive bodies, supers and frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ron > I have experimented with a pressure washer Does this not remove fibres from the wood itself leaving a rough surface? Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 20:15:28 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Brother Adam, Scuts and Buckfasts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Aaron The trip of brother Adam that you mention was an early one. There was another one later, during which he was given an unspecified number of scutellata queens. I personally believe that he accepted the gift gracefully but did not even return them to the UK. I do not think he was impressed with any of the characteristics that he saw. I have had confirmation of my belief from other sources. There is some mention of this event in the video "the monk and the honey bee". He did bring back some queens of A M Monticola on the second trip and I believe that some genes from this species, particularly the darker mountain strain, were incorporated into the Buckfast strain. Bro Adam was a brilliant queen breeder, very dedicated to his purpose. His goal was to breed a bee for heather honey production on Dartmoor. He achieved his aim to a superlative degree. Unfortunately the needs of the rest of the UK are not met by the Buckfast strain apart from a small region in the south west corner of the country. Buckfast bees are popular wherever the weather suits them, They need warmer weather than nature provides in the northern part of the UK. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 17:13:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is in answer to some of Bob Harrison’s questions. CAPENSIS WORKER LAYING “FEMALE” EGGS How does a capensis worker lay eggs that can be grown into workers or queens? To quote (from random examples) Harry H Laidlaw, Jnr. in “Contemporary Queen Rearing:” “As we now know, worker bees of a race of honey bees in South Africa, Apis Mellifera Capensis, can lay unfertilised eggs that develop into females (Onions 1912), and that rarely, virgin queens of our bees may lay eggs that develop into females (Mackensen 1943). Tucker (1958) has suggested an explanation for this.” My personal guess is that capensis workers have this (ready) ability as an extreme (and effective) survival tactic. Their natural range, the Western Cape, comprises a “unique” floral kingdom, the fynbos. Flows are fairly frequent, but never very strong. Along with winter rains, winter conditions, especially the winds, can be quite nasty; seriously miserable. There can be days and days on end when the bees cannot fly. Perhaps the bee developed this technique to deal with disasters where (at minimum) the queen and all eggs and young brood were lost. Today, outside their natural range, they may sense impending disaster (how right could they be?), triggering laying behaviour. Put another way, perhaps RELATIVE weakening levels of scent from the scut queen (following an expanded brood nest, for example) trigger the capensis worker into believing some disaster is pending. The capensis worker would change gear into survival mode and start laying eggs. CAPENSIS IN BRAZIL The Americas can thank their lucky stars capensis taken to Brazil by Dr. Kerr did not survive in their pure state. If I had to guess why, I would say it’s because capensis is downright lazy outside its natural range. COLOURS The ApiCrown queens are golden, particularly on the sides and underside of the abdomen. The top of the abdomen comprises alternate stripes of golden yellow and a very dark grey. They have luminescent golden hairs. We do have a line of bees which is strikingly yellow; it is the largest of all the lines, but it did not qualify for breeder status. Like the ApiCrown workers, the ApiCrown queens are a lot “closer” to (pure) scuts in colour. A pure capensis queen is very, very dark; indeed black in some parts. The hybrid wild bee is predominantly scut in coloration. The difference in colour certainly helps when looking for early capensis infestation. Capensis are “black,” and quite distinctive on the comb, and such a hive may well contain (darker) hybrids closer to pure capensis. But possibly the surest way to confirm capensis infestation is multiple eggs in worker cells. As noted, in the advanced stage, there may be a dozen or more eggs in a single cell: an abominable mess. QUEEN SCENT When a scut queen “loses control” of her colony in the face of capensis, it normally follows stress. The two classic triggers are long-distance migration and a heavy flow (where the brood nest suddenly becomes very enlarged). This is when one or more capensis workers start laying, and damnation of the colony ensues. On that basis, the capensis worker, or several of them, produce more scent that the scut queen, who is balled and killed. Logically, one would then conclude that a capensis queen probably has stronger scent than a scut queen. The latter may be academic, given that the capensis workers are the real problem. But the simple point is that once capensis worker laying activity starts in a scut hive, the damage is irreversible. AM LITTORA The other race said to be found in north-east South Africa near Mozambique is AM littora. But there is no known scientific backing for what remains anecdotal. My best regards to all of you, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:49:17 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) In-Reply-To: <200106182142.f5ILgQP22944@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > When a scut queen “loses control” of her colony in the face of > capensis, it normally follows stress. The two classic triggers are > long-distance migration and a heavy flow (where the brood nest > suddenly becomes very enlarged). This is when one or more > capensis workers start laying, and damnation of the colony ensues. > > On that basis, the capensis worker, or several of them, produce more > scent that the scut queen, who is balled and killed. Logically, one > would then conclude that a capensis queen probably has stronger > scent than a scut queen. The latter may be academic, given that the > capensis workers are the real problem. I wonder if the supplemental queen pheromones that are now available cheaply in Canada and the USA, might be a solution. I have seen claims made to the effect that, even in a queenright colony, the addition of pheromones can be beneficial to colony morale. I wonder if augmenting pheromone levels in your colonies artificially would forestall the laying worker problem. I also wonder if the pheromone mixture might need to be varied a bit, since it is a blend of substances, and may be unique to each breed of bee. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Brother Adam, Scuts and Buckfasts Comments: To: Dave Cushman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, > The trip of brother Adam that you mention was an early one. > There was another one later, during which he was given an unspecified number of scutellata queens. I personally believe that he accepted the gift > gracefully but did not even return them to the UK. I do not think he was > impressed with any of the characteristics that he saw. I have had > confirmation of my belief from other sources. There is some mention of this > event in the video "the monk and the honey bee". Thanks Dave! The Monk and the Honey Bee was the video I referred to. The video is in the Midwestern Beekeepers library so maybe I can get the video this Thursday night and review. I remember the part about Brother Adam having to go and put on gloves because of the number of stings he was receiving. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:56:50 -0400 Reply-To: saugusti@krl.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stephen Augustine Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) In-Reply-To: <200106182142.f5ILgQP22944@listserv.albany.edu> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Barry and all, Thanks for a very interesting post regarding A.M. Scutellata and A.M. Capensis. I have a couple of questions and some observations. 1. In regards to Capensis, what in the past has restricted their range to the Cape area? That is, it seems that given enough time they would have expanded their range (even if they moved north only a couple of miles a year) and ultimately taken over the Scutellata (and other races) if they are as deadly as you describe. 2. It is a testament to good breeding practices that your ApiCrown queens exhibit behaviour that is radically different from the wild Scuts. I am guessing that Dr. Kerr selected for similar characteristics that you are selecting for in ApiCrown queens (or perhaps he didn't). If he did, then can we assume that the genes for aggressiveness must be dominant and re-establish themselves when the bees return to the wild? I wonder about this in light of the so-called "killer bee" phenomenon in the Americas. The Thelytoky (ability of females to lay diploid eggs resulting in clones of themselves) exhibited to a high degree by Capensis is present in other races of Apis Mellifera but probably to a lesser degree. There is a very interesting paper on this topic by G. DeGrandi-Hoffman, E. H. Erickson Jr., D. Lusby, and E. Lusby at http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/bsmay1991.htm which discusses their experiments to explore thelytoky in European honeybees with some rather revealing results. It might appear that, naturally, thelytoky is a valuable survival strategy for honeybees but is possibly not seen often in European bees because of normal colony management practices. For anyone wishing to read a short description of the haploid-diploid nature of insect reproduction there is a reasonably good explanation at: http://crsc.calpoly.edu/crsc/Headrick/ipmreproduction.htm Thanks again, Stephen Augustine Bees By The Bay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:10:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brad Young Subject: Morning sun vs. Wind stress Hi all, As you know by now, this is my first year and I have two hives going and I live in SE Nebraska. My two hives are presently on a crest of the hill where they get great morning sun to get them up and moving right away, but as anyone knows about the plains states, we get wind too. Last night I spent a sleepless night as we had wind gusts well over 40-50 mph around my house. I knew the hives were getting the brunt of it. Tonight it was still gusty, but not quite as much so. However, it was still tossing the bees around and causing several to crash land in front of the hives. My question is two fold: first, how much wind does it take to blow hives over that are 4 deeps high (open ended question, I know, but generalizations are welcomed), and two, I am thinking of moving the hives off the crest and down on the leeward side of the slope near a tree line this winter. In so doing, though, they would not get sun on the hive until a couple hours later in the morning (9:00-10:00ish). Again, I would not do this until this winter so as not to disrupt their flights and so on now during our flow which is happening now. Is it more important to get them out of the wind or get them morning sun? There's really nowhere on my property to acheive both. I am also tossing up the idea of a 6'-8' high screening fence, but since I would like to expand to maybe 10 or so hives in the next couple of years, that would require a lot of fencing. Thanks, Brad ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:38:27 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: African bee briefing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Stephen Augustine wrote: > Thelytoky (ability of females to lay diploid eggs resulting in clones of >themselves) . . . The defn does not, or should not IMHO, feature that second aspect. Here are some reasons. The term 'clone' has become somewhat murky these past few years. Perhaps the most familiar, and most valid, meaning is the mass-production of plant clones by ordinary cuttings. But this has no real counterpart amongst animal propagation techniques. The removal of an animal cell's nucleus by microsurgery, and substitution by a nucleus sucked out of another cell, does not yield an ovum (or zygote, as the case may be) with the same genome as the cell from which the donor nucleus was moved. There are some important genes in the cytoplasm of the target egg (notably in the mitochondria), and some cytoplasm from the donor cell is liable to get thru. (This last is the point of the recent '3 parents' human experimentation in New Jersey.) Even among the plants, attempts at producing large numbers of identical adults have not always succeeded. When it became possible a couple decades ago to grow some plants from single cells, the mass-producers of pines gleefully bulked up from single cells taken from meristems of their champion individual pine tree. The result, I'm informed (I don't think they've ever published this), was more monsters than anyone had ever seen. This can be interpreted to mean that the so-called totipotence of adult cells actually does not correspond to potential to grow into a standard adult organism. "Cloned" animals, so far, tend to be mainly flops (several hundred duds for one 'Dolly' or similar "cloned" mammal); they tend to be oddly large, which can require caesarian birth; and they tend to age rapidly and die young. I mention all this as probably relevant to some of the gene-tampering capers likely to be attempted by the gene-jockeys on bees; but also because it should not be assumed the eggs resulting from thelytoky are identical. Detailed examination might show they are; but until then, it would be prudent to assume some variation among them. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:01:57 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Halictid Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been trying for nearly a year to get good photos of two green bees. Both species are fast movers, spooky, and not very common, though I've seen them on a variety of flowers. I have finally gotten some images that I am proud of, and invite you to enjoy them. Any comments, help with ID, etc., are welcome. http://pollinator.com/gallery/halictid_bees.htm Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page, Portal to Pollination Info and Images: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:26:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Morning sun vs. Wind stress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Brad & All, > My question is two fold: first, how much wind does it take to blow hives > over that are 4 deeps high The wind you describe is enough at times. Hive can take quite a bit of wind if they are not tilted to the front. Many times we brace two queen hives with 2X4 's when 4 deeps high. Brace like you would a pole when building a pole barn. > and two, I am thinking of moving the hives off the crest and down on the >leeward side of the slope near a tree line this winter. In so doing, though, >(9:00-10:00ish). I would move the hives off the crest of the hill or provide a winter wind break. Your honey crops are similar to ours in Missouri and the bees getting started by 9:00 _ 10:00 is ok. If you were concerned about pollination of a certain crop my answer could be different. I see bees being able to fly early to pollinate apples as a plus. Many times all apple pollination is done in a couple days because of inclement weather in our area and a couple hours of extra pollinating time helps. I have got a close beekeeping friend in your area. We spend hours talking about our bees and the differences between Nebraska and Missouri. Wintering in your area of Nebraska is tough. My friend and the other Nebraska beekeepers I have met migrate south each winter. I believe you will get a decent honey crop most years but might have trouble wintering. I would make wintering my first priority. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:10:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Do we need Standards For Woodenware? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Yarnell wrote: > > The fault, Dear Brutes, is not with the set up, but with the lumber. With > few exceptions, the dimensions will be pretty close when the stock is cut. > Unless very dry lumber is used, there can be significant dimensional > changes, especially with soft woods. > On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bill Truesdell wrote: > > If we built all our hives of a better dimensionally stable material, > > then standards would work, I agree. I was thinking plastic or any other material that does not absorb water and stays fairly dimensionally consistent under variable weather conditions. Wood is a very variable product especially when used outdoors, painted/unpainted, etc.. I noted that standards were used in England and worked for a while. But you are looking at a fairly homogeneous climate compared to the US. A recent TV show on building arch bridges in China brought up another drawback in standards. They instituted standards in architecture and were able to stop shoddy workmanship but froze innovation for hundreds of years. They went from being at the front of design to the back as the rest of the world caught up and passed them, thanks to standards. Of course, that assumes a rigidly policed system with stiff penalties which is doubtful in US Beekeeping. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:42:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Advice requested in aftermath of bear damage In-Reply-To: <200106190603.f5J63FP07475@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friday morning a bear tore apart one of our two hives. In the time I have lived here we've only seen a bear once, along with signs of his passing through, but we hadn't seen even sign before or after so I thought we were safe. I thought wrong. Anyhow, we spent two days in record breaking heat and humidity getting some electric fencing in. Now that the bee yard is (hopefully) safe, I am figuring out what to do for the colony that was attacked. The day of the attack and the following day there was very little activity outside of the hive. The brood frames were not removed from the bottom brood chamber (during the attack I mean), but it had been flipped over so many bee were probably crushed between frames. We didn't see our queen, so we just crossed our fingers. Yesterday and today the bees were flying again. I'm guessing that they had a lot of cleaning up to do and were focussing on that for a couple days. We were told that the best way to tell if our queen had been killed was to wait three days, then look for eggs. No eggs - no queen. Makes sense to me, and that's what we have done. We didn't see any eggs, but then I never have. Either they are just too tiny for my eyes (which are not all that great) or I just haven't figured out what they look like. I consider that test to be inconclusive because of my own inexperience. We did find two cells that *sort of* look like supercedure cells. (I'm judging against drawings I've seen - I've never seen a real one). They were in the right place, and they were vertically oriented, but they were much smaller than I would expect from the few pictures I have seen. They were about 3/4 of an inch tall, and open on the bottom. I couldn't really see what was inside. I'm trying to locate a new queen, but in the meantime I'm seeking comments on what I saw. Are queen cells that small at some point? What does it mean that they are open at the bottom? Do they start that way, or does it mean that the young queens have already emerged (obviously started before the bear trouble then.) Your sharing of experience will be much appreciated by this novice beekeeper. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Brother Adam, Scuts and Buckfasts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adam I beleive Apis Mellifera adami was general and included scutelata at the time Dave ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Morning sun vs. Wind stress Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Brad This time of year the supers are filled with liquid nectar so hive is very heavy and won't blow over easily, might put a brick on the cover .. But the straight line winds like we had Saturday night could destroy anything. Re crest of the hill vs leeward side .. I would probably think about a sheltered area. All my hives sit behind abandoned barns on CRP land. Here in Nebraska we have some mild winters when it doesn't matter, then we have ones like last year where its bitter cold for 3 months and hive loses are high. By having them behing some type of windbreak, it helps. You could also plan on wrapping the hives this fall if you left them sit where they are. Dave Not far from Plattsmoth at Liberty, NE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:01:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Medhat Nasr Subject: Re: A New Address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bee-L Members, Please note that my e-mail address has changed. I accepted a new job to work as an Extension Apiculture Specialist at Rutgers University, New Brunswick, New Jersey. I will continue conducting research on development of practical IPM programs to control mites, small hive beetles and others. This is a new challenge. Salute! Medhat Nasr, Ph. D. Blueberry and Cranberry Research Center Chatsworth, New Jersey 08019, USA Phone. 609-726-1590 Ex 25 Fax. 609-726-1593 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:26:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thank you to Stephen Augustine for his questions: 1. In regard to AM capensis, what in the past has restricted their range to the Cape area? The Western Cape area is a relatively small domain around Cape Town. It is one of only two small areas in Africa (the other is on the northern tip) to receive winter rains only, the so-called “Mediterranean climate.” Second, the Western Cape boasts a “unique” floral kingdom, the “fynbos.” This area is surrounded by a huge expanse of semi-desert, the Karroo. So it seems likely that capensis developed specialised foraging techniques to deal with a “unique” flora (“fynbos” translates literally as “fine bush”) and second, specialised survival techniques for winters which can on occasion be very cold, extremely miserable, hopelessly overcast, horribly windy and otherwise hostile. There are indeed areas where the range of capensis overlaps with scutellata, but the scut has remained dominant over gigantic areas of Africa. Unlike capensis, the scut is incredibly adaptable and flexible, migrates without a second thought, is capable of drawing wax in no time, forming brood at a truly breathtaking pace, and hoarding huge amounts of honey at rates that almost defy gravity. Scut swarms will fly, seemingly forever, in search of good new foraging grounds. Not to be cruel, the Western Cape flora, beautiful as it is, was probably not up to the scut’s standards. Evidently the winter weather also failed the scut test. By the way, parts of the Western Cape also experience some bad patches during the dry summers, aggravated by offshore howlers know as “Berg Winds.” So far as the overlapping areas of capensis and scut ranges are concerned, it should be remarked that a “wild” scut nest in such an area would be under very little threat from capensis. Such nests are “natural” and any intruding capensis would be killed. The scut nest really has to be stressed for capensis to take the gap. This is where man’s hand helps capensis - mainly by migrating colonies (massive stress) directly to strong flows (more stress - the brood nest explodes). In the same vein, one of the very very early signs of capensis infestation is lots of dead bees at the hive entrance. That being, of course, the scuts fighting capensis intruders. Some beekeepers believe that in commercial apiaries, capensis workers actively and wilfully fly around seeking a scut colony to “parasitise.” 2. Can we assume that the genes for aggressiveness must be dominant and re-establish when the bees return to the wild? I wonder about this in light of the so-called "killer bee" phenomenon in the Americas. I think beekeepers here would certainly agree that the aggression trait is dominant. Even though we deal today in South Africa with a “wild” scut that is hybridised with capensis, the “wild” bees are every bit aggressive as the worst publicity would have it. 3. In our context, I think the point to make about capensis workers’ thelytoky abilities is their readiness to lay. Thelytoky may be of great esoteric interest among other races of bees, but in this country capensis have caused untold economic damage. In practice, beekeepers here have found that no degree of management, manipulation, or any other technique or tactic is sufficient to prevent a commercial colony from being destroyed by capensis. It’s not a question of “if” the colony will fall to capensis, but a question of “when.” Some beekeepers have gone the “permanent site” route, in order to reduce colony stress. Even then, the capensis problem remains, albeit somewhat diluted. So it is that one of the tests an ApiCrown queen must pass to qualify as a breeder queen is as follows: 1. Ensure all the bees in the colony are progeny of the queen (the queens are often introduced into nucs of “wild” bees). The colony should be at least of a reasonable size, with brood of all ages, and some stores of honey and pollen. 2. Remove the queen completely; introduce her to a nuc, or whatever. Remove all frames with eggs and brood young enough for the bees to grow into queens. 3. Days, and even weeks, later, this queenless colony should be as happy as possible in such conditions. Environmental conditions should comprise at least a reasonable flow, so there is pressure on the bees (normally the queen) to expand their population. The acid test is that there should be no evidence of a single egg (or brood formed from eggs laid after the queen was removed) in a single cell, be it worker, drone or queen cell. I mention the latter as capensis workers would typically lay in worker cells; scut workers in drone cells. In a nutshell, the ApiCrown queens should produce workers in which the instinct (rather than ability) to lay eggs has been suppressed to a negligible (hopefully zero) level. Of course, this test is not conclusive or the “final solution.” It does not answer the question of what would happen if a capensis worker “illegally” gained entrance to the colony described after, say, a fortnight. And here a very important point: a capensis laying worker need not be a sudden new arrival in a colony. A “wild” colony displaying normal behaviour after any amount of time has inevitably always harboured latent capensis laying workers. They are literally waiting in the wings to start laying. At least this test of ApiCrown workers in the method described means (we hope) that we have eliminated the latent laying workers from the breeding lines. Put another way, a 100% absence of queen phenorome for an extended time does not trigger laying workers. Remember, with normal capensis infestation, the capensis workers start laying eggs while the scut queen is still alive! My best regards to you all, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:54:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marie Van Dyck Subject: Re: Brother Adam and Buckfasts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Hello Aaron, hi all ! Please, excuse my poor English, I'm French speaking ! you wrote: left>>>>> ... [cut] ... that some do not consider Brother Adam to be as great a hero as he is cast in the States. There are some who feel that Brother Adam did a good deal to pollute the gene pool in his native country and that perhaps the bee population would have been better off without his efforts. >>>>> My grandmother would have said (in French): "They all are jealous one!" :) Nevertheless it should be noticed that the imports of Italian queens had started well before the career of the Br. Adam. Indeed, when he became bee-keeper at the St Mary abbey, there were already Italian queens and mixed-races in this apiary. See "One live; one bee" on http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/biogen.html In this, you can see briefly the different bee races Brother Adam included in his Bucfast bee: First, in 1917 brown ligustica x drones of the vanished British bee. In 1930 : crossing a French A.m.m. queen from S-W of Paris with drones from the Buckfast stock. Later, this combination was considered totally noteworthy. Only in 1940 he introduced this cross in his Buckfast bee. 1959 his bee received a crossing with the A. m. cecropia, started in 1952 1967, adding of a cross A. m. anatolia x buckfast stock, started in 1960. 1982, beginning with the cecropia Athos, added in 1984 with the well known T-301 drone line. 1985, begin with a sahariensis from the Erfoud oasis 1986, begin with an anatolica from Sinop 1988, beginning with the kenian monticola bee In 1994, Br. Adam got 2 Egyptian lamarkii bees but the work was treated by Keld Branstrup in denmark ( http://www.buckfast.dk/ ) About the same time, he entrusted a work on the sahariensis one to his Alsatian friend Raymond Zimmer < (his book: L'abeille Buckfast en questions in French or German.) Some breeding programs were also carried out by its disciple Paul Jungels ( http://www.apisjungels.lu/ ), the young Luxembourg stockbreeder. Some other works were performed by his other friend the German beekeeper Franz Fehrenback who organized the 2 trips on Kilimanjaro. The german society is very active http://www.buckfast.de/ IMHO no other bee line than the above entered the "Buckfast bee" till now. But I'm sure, he never used scutellata bees. The work carried out by Brother Adam is unimaginable. Itself included understood it only very late. It will say it at the Congress of Bordesholm in 1989 in his "Recommendations relating to the breeding, the maintenance and the future of the Buckfast bees" : text on http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/FAhinwe89de.html (in German) or http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/artcl/FAhinwe89fr.html (in French, sorry). The exactly same (very big) work should be made to recover suitable lines in the other races. The Buckfast, it is not only one kind of bees, it's first and especially a working method, hard and difficult but giving some results. left>>>>> It is worthy of note that his breeding program would never be possible in today's times in the States. Look at how long it took and the protective steps taken to import Russian stock. >>>>> You are quite right. This kind of work don't support too much constraints. left>>>>> I wonder if this is a good or bad thing. >>>>> Do you know another method to introduce new qualities into a living organism where they don't exist? The question is: is it moral to make that? It's the same question in connection with the OGM, etc.! It's more natural and one practises it since millenia. Br. Adam try doing it with bees, I believe, with some results. Beely ... Jean-Marie Van Dyck < General URL for the homage page to Br. Adam : http://fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/ web pages in 6 languages with a bibliography where you can find a lot of scanned articles by, and on, or related to Br. Adam. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 19:12:34 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Morning sun vs. Wind stress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad Young asked: > My question is two fold: first, how much wind does it take to blow hives > over that are 4 deeps high (open ended question, I know, but > generalizations are welcomed) We get some gusty days and nights here in the mountains of Virginia, but nothing that would compare with Nebraska. For example, no one here has ever complained of having a hive tool blown out of their hand. :) Unless secured or weighted, the outer (and shortly thereafter, the inner) cover will blow off long before the hive would be in danger of blowing over. (This happened to me my first beekeeping winter. One brick was not enough. The inner cover ended up about 50 yards downwind.) I'd suggest putting a cinder block on top of each hive, just as cheap short-term insurance. If you are worried about entire hives blowing over, first, check how level your bottom board is. A slight slant towards the front is a good thing for dealing with rain, but it need not be much more than 1/2 bubble off level. If you are still worried, you could drive stakes on either side of each hive, and use a "ratchet strap" to secure the hive. > I am thinking of moving the hives off the crest and down on the leeward side > of the slope near a tree line this winter. In so doing, though, they would not > get sun on the hive until a couple hours later in the morning (9:00-10:00ish). > Is it more important to get them out of the wind or get them morning sun? The issue is one of trade-offs, but in your case, it sounds like the leeward side of the slope is a very good idea. Some people look for existing wind breaks, but if you have none, even a minor dip in the terrain could help. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:13:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African bee briefing (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, >Unlike capensis, the scut is incredibly adaptable and flexible, > migrates without a second thought, is capable of drawing wax in no > time, forming brood at a truly breathtaking pace, and hoarding huge > amounts of honey at rates that almost defy gravity. The AHB kept by the Dr. Taylor in Mexico didn't demonstrate any of the above. They sent out swarm after swarm and brood nests never got very large. They stored very little honey and ran on the frames They were very aggressive. A close friend shot quite a bit of video in the week he spent with Dr. Chip Taylor observing AHB. I have seen homemade video and talked with many which have worked AHB. I personally never have worked AHB and would like to make the point clear. > So far as the overlapping areas of capensis and scut ranges are > concerned, it should be remarked that a "wild" scut nest in such an > area would be under very little threat from capensis. I have been told that in the north of Africa the upper limit is in the 30 to 35 range. We believe the same range will apply in the U.S.. In the south of Africa the extreme tip of the cape is outside this limit. I have been told another bee is holding on down there and "scuts" are not making any inroads. Is the information correct? > 2. Can we assume that the genes for aggressiveness must be > dominant and re-establish when the bees return to the wild? I wonder > about this in light of the so-called "killer bee" phenomenon in the > Americas. My opinion that in areas of only AHB this would be the case because of inbreeding. In areas of huge numbers of European hives I would expect what many of us think we are seeing in Texas. Less aggressive AHB. > 3. In our context, I think the point to make about capensis workers' > thelytoky abilities is their readiness to lay. Thelytoky may be of great > esoteric interest among other races of bees, but in this country > capensis have caused untold economic damage. In doing research for this post I found very little information on the subject of Thelytoky in the beekeeping books of the U.S. A book which I personally have read and reread and used for around 25 years does not use the word Thelytoky once. The book talks about Parthenogenesis in the discussion of drone and worker eggs The only other reference is on page 121 quote: Parthenogenesis is the development of an egg without fertilization("Queen Rearing" Laidlaw & Eckert 1962). The Hive and the honey Bee has only three paragraphs on Thelytoky. In my opinion very little research has been done on the subject by U.S. researchers. . Tucker (1958) seems to have done the most research in the books I looked at. These are his conclusions: Thelytoky occured most often among progeny of a virgin queen. Thelytoky can be induced by causing cessation of ovipositon by a queen for a period by confining her and then allowing her to lay again. Maybe Barry can tell us other things he has learned about Parthenogenesis and Thelytokym through his work with capensis? > In practice, beekeepers here have found that no degree of > management, manipulation, or any other technique or tactic is > sufficient to prevent a commercial colony from being destroyed by > capensis. It's not a question of "if" the colony will fall to capensis, but a > question of "when." I was under the impression only weak hives were in danger. You said above feral scuts had little to fear from capensis. > Some beekeepers have gone the "permanent site" route, in order to > reduce colony stress. Even then, the capensis problem remains, > albeit somewhat diluted. Besides the reduction in stress factor wouldn't the "permanent site" brood nests be stronger than the migratory? Years ago I would have only had a casual interest in capensis but after the recent arrivals in The U.S. of tracheal mites, varroa and small hive beetle I am going to try and learn as much as I can about the cape bee. Many beekeepers thought my obsession with varroa before we had varroa in the U.S. was a waste of time. When varroa arrived I was a popular beekeeper at meetings. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:21:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeff Holbrook Subject: Re: Halictid Photos In-Reply-To: <200106190603.f5J63LP07486@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, My guess, and it is only a guess as I do not have the bee in front of me. These pictures are good but do not show all the features needed for a species ID. Regardless, I am proposing that what you have in your photo is "Agapostemon virescens." Other possibilities are "Augochloropsis spp." or Augochlorella spp." Jeff Holbrook Canton, NY < I have finally gotten some images that I am Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: pesticides on corn/cucumber pollination fees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by dblocher@COMMERZBANK-USA.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove extraneous signature attachments. ----------------- Original message (ID=EC41115C) (59 lines) ------------------- From: "Blocher, David" To: "'BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu'" Subject: pesticides on corn/cucumber pollination fees Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:00:08 -0400 Hello all! I live in Connecticut, and felt lucky to find a five hundred acre farm in Fairfield County that has 130 acres in pasture. However, I have had growing apprehension during the past few weeks, as the farmer will be spraying pesticides on his corn multiple times this summer. He will be using Lanate, Larvin, and one called Warrior. One stand of hives is very near the corn, the other is about half a mile away. I know that all of these are highly toxic to bees, and wanted to know if it is still possible to keep bees on the property if the hives are located a certain distance from the corn, the issues being drift of the pesticide and spraying attractive nectar/pollen plants near the corn. Any experience with these pesticides, or similar situations? I am ready to move the hives if necessary, or close them up during spraying (how effective is merely closing them up?). I have never experienced loss to pesticides, and do not want to begin now. Also, can anybody give me an idea on fees for pollinating cucumbers and squash? I have a prospect with about 25 acres combined of both plants, and do not know what the going rate is here or anywhere else. Anything to watch out for? I believe the cucumbers will be hand-picked over many weeks. Thanks for all help, David Blocher Any direct responses please send to dblocher@home.com (I'm sending this from work, since email from home doesn't work at present--hope this message doesn't get bounced!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:35:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Organization: Hayden Bee Research Center, USDA-ARS,Tucson, Arizona Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > For the archives: > Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be > inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 > years > we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. Sorry, but the phrase "AI" (Artificial Insemination) is in common use in most other types of animal husbandry (cattle, horses, swine). Call it what you choose. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 13:27:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, > > For the archives: > > Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be > > inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 > > years we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. John wrote: > Sorry, but the phrase "AI" (Artificial Insemination) is in common use in most > other types of animal husbandry (cattle, horses, swine). Call it what you > choose. I used to say "A I" until I got tired of being corrected by those doing instrumental Insemination. You can call the procedure whatever you want but lets be CORRECT at least in the beekeeping books. Big difference between * A arm and glove inserted* and a *sterile instrument*. "AI" is as you say is for (cattle,horses,swine) and as I and researchers doing "II" say *instrumental insemination* IS correct for A.mellifera. I have NEVER seen a add in a bee magazine for a artificial inseminated breeder queen. They ALWAYS say instrumentally inseminated. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri "Thinking old habits may be hard to change" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:43:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: African bee briefing (2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi all; Bob Harrison raised some interesting questions in his latest posting. Maybe the best way I can deal with them is to recast some analysis of the process by which AM capensis destroys AM scutellata colonies, and also quote from the literature. But I would like to kick off with a description of the activities of wild scuts. This may give some benchmarks for measuring the activities of the AHB in the Americas. THE INDUSTRIAL “WILD” SCUT At the moment I am trapping wild bees near Piet Retief. It is located just west of Swaziland in a province called Mpumalanga. Mozambique is not so far off. If you go to this web site: http://plasma.nationalgeographic.com/mapmachine/ and then enter “Piet Retief” in the search box, and later click on the same name in the pop-up box, the map should pinpoint the little city. In a roughly south and north direction of Piet Retief lies the escarpment where the highveld slopes quite steeply to the lowveld and then to the sea. The method is to place plastic nucs in trees; these hold five full-length full depth Langstroth wooden frames. The body is identical to corrugated cardboard, but made in a new plastic material. They work brilliantly and are a little innovative in the domestic context; the box, which almost self assembles, arrives flat and costs about US$2 per item. Each frame is supplied with a strip of wax foundation about two inches deep. The nights are icy and the bees need - initially at least - to be able to cluster unhindered. Indeed, it is mid-winter (tomorrow, to be precise). The trap boxes are at elevations above sea level of some 1400-1600 meters. Temperatures range between an average of 3 and 18 celsius, with occasional heavy frosts. There will be a heavy frost tonight. The days are almost always full sun, but the bee working day is quite short; some nine or so hours. Outside the Western Cape, the rest of South Africa has dry winters. The current flow at Piet Retief is provided by commercial Eucalyptus Grandis forests. At this altitude the trees flower from end-March to end-August. Grandis probably provides, in economic terms, the best overall flow in the country, with very high quality nectar and pollen. When one of these trap boxes catches a medium sized swarm, the bees draw comb on all five frames in about 10 days. By then the nest contains a full complement of brood, pollen and honey. Trees with occupied boxes are marked during the day and the boxes removed at night. They are transported a short distance (around 7 km) to a central apiary, and placed on the ground in full sun. On occasion very big swarms do not occupy the box in the tree, building comb in the open, attached to the underside of the box. These swarms must be specially dealt with. Depending on the size of the colonies, the bees are either left in the trap box or immediately transferred into standard wooden 10-frame Langstroth brood chambers. Honey production is not my main interest, but you have to start supering brood chambers on the slightest suspicion the bees may start swarm preparation. The largest swarm in the apiary was caught about five weeks ago. Since then, it has fully drawn 10 frames of strip wax foundation in the brood chamber and filled five supers with honey. The supers were supplied with full sheets of wax foundation. Two supers were added under the existing five last Friday night. All our honey supers are the shallow type, yielding about 11 kg of extracted honey per super. In, say, a fortnight’s time, including honey in the brood chamber, this big colony would have produced close to 90 kg of honey in just short of two months. This big colony has not been re-queened yet. The wild scut queen, who appeared very young when I saw her, is not excluded to the brood chamber, but has not once laid eggs in any of the supers. On a grandis flow, you always place new supers under the filled ones because the honey granulates quickly once it leaves the warmth of the bees. Going that far down, you always check the brood nest for queen cells. In the apiaries generally, I have not seen any signs of brood diseases; no doubt the cold dry weather helps. You see the odd small hive beetle in, say, one of every five colonies. There are braula around, as ever, especially on the queens. You know varroa is there, all right, all over the place. I have not seen one single clue that capensis is causing any trouble. I should mention that the flow in the general area is said to be the best in five years. I must re-iterate that you have to manage these wild colonies very, very carefully to try and retard swarming instincts. I still get cases where I miss a queen cell and most of the colony swarms off. And that is despite careful supering to decongest the hive. The basic methodology described for trapping bees is practised by practically all beekeepers in this country. By the end of August, I anticipate 600 trapped swarms (excluding any splits) over four months. I think you will all agree that this is an absolutely fantastic natural resource. Without it, given the capensis problem, it seems doubtful that any beekeepers would have survived the past 10 years in this country. Here I would like to quote from Anderson, Buys and Johannsmeier’s “Beekeeping in South Africa” (1983 - in the “good old days,” when scuts were truly scuts): “The [scutellata] queens are exceptionally prolific and capable of developing large colonies. In a breeding yard fourteen of these colonies produced in a year an average of 140 kg of honey (range: 22 to 320 kg), while the six best colonies produced an average of 240 kg with a range of 180 - 320 kg. Their hives consisted of a double brood chamber and 4-5 deep supers each throughout the year. These was no swarming problem in these colonies.” These hives appear to have been on a permanent site. The authors to not say what kind of flows were available. Dare I mention a few other reasons the scut may contain the materials to be the world’s best bee? It ability of rapid build up is enhanced by a smaller cell size (vs. the European races), closer combs and shorter development cycle. And it’s true that returning field bees do not touch the landing board. Nor, for that matter, do the exiting bees. THE CAPENSIS PROCESS - STEP BY STEP I think it may be worth examining “why” capensis workers destroy scut colonies, as opposed to “how.” Lets accept that today all “wild” (untrapped) bees in South Africa are hybrids, say with about 15% capensis “blood,” and thus predominantly scutellata in nature and colour. This excludes pure capensis in and around Cape Town. By the way, if you look at Cape Town by using the web site mentioned above, you may get some idea of the topography. The natural range for capensis are those coastal plains roughly north and east of Cape Town. As soon as you get up into those high mountains, rainfall figures drop sharply and beyond the mountains you have that very large semi-desert, the Karroo. Anderson, Buys and Johannsmeier state that capensis is a “mild” bee vs. scutellata. Their colonies are not as large as those of scutellata, and the queens are not as prolific. “Perhaps the most striking similarity” between the two races is “the ease with which both develop laying workers. In the case of the Cape honey bee the progeny of these workers is largely female i.e. workers.” We know from scientific research that capensis workers can lay unfertilised eggs that develop into females - known fantastically as thelytoky. This ability appears unique among all bee races; but has been recorded in other races’ virgin queens. Let’s assume the capensis worker has this power as an extreme survival tactic. In its natural range, with its lousy winters, a colony could survive even if some disaster killed the queen and all brood. Now recast to a decade ago when some beekeepers allegedly migrated several hundred capensis colonies from their natural range to the ultra heavy aloe davyana winter flow, just north of Pretoria. Some 1000 miles from home, these capensis colonies allegedly turned in a pathetic performance, and the colonies were supposedly deserted. This, so the legend goes, was the source of the modern problem. Perhaps at this juncture one can pose the question: “back home,” when does a capensis worker start laying eggs? Let’s assume the answer is simply the normal: when the capensis queen has perished for whatever reason. Back on the aloes a decade ago, there were tens of thousands of disgruntled homesick capensis workers flying around. Any number of them ended up in scutellata colonies (let’s say, in a humorous vein, that the scut hives had hoarded far more honey). These aloes provide an incredible dual flow of nectar and pollen, and scut brood nests are inevitably extended beyond normal size. This leaves the scuts vulnerable to a capensis attack. Let’s try and take this step by step. Let’s say one capensis worker illegally gained successful entrance to a scut hive. This single capensis worker immediately senses - IN ITS TERMS - a failing queen. It starts laying eggs in a quiet area of the brood nest, and the scuts start raising “pure” capensis worker brood. Meanwhile, the capensis worker, believing itself a (temporary?) queen, secretes increasing levels of phenorome (or something similar; see later). Eventually, the scuts perceive their queen to be failing, and ball and kill her. The emerging capensis workers recognise a queenless colony, and soon go into laying mode. Meanwhile, the scuts, the only bees working at any stage in this process, do not draw queen cells; they recognise the capensis worker as queen, and later, the multiple capensis workers as multiple queens. (Anyhow, as you will see later, the capensis workers are programmed to tear down any queen cells). Somewhere around this step, the social order in the hive collapses completely. This is when you start finding a dozen or more eggs in a single worker cell. The bottom line is that these two races of bees are incompatible. This scut colony is, to all intents and purposes, dead. What happens in similar circumstances in a pure capensis colony living in its historical environment? Anderson, Buys and Johannsmeier state: “These [capensis] workers, with very well developed ovaries and frequently with mature eggs in the ovaries are present even in queenright colonies. The presence of these laying workers makes it very difficult to raise queens by the normally accepted methods.” Noting that queen rearing normally requires a queenless starter colony, the authors state that in capensis: “this promotes the development of functional laying workers and these individuals produce and deposit eggs in the cells within 4-8 days of queen removal. This will occur even in the presence of eggs and young brood, while in all other sub-species the presence of eggs and young brood has a retarding effect on the development of laying workers. “One final peculiarity of the capensis honey bee is its reaction to the loss of its queen. Accompanying the above mentioned development of functional laying workers, there is always a loss of adult workers. These losses which vaguely resemble fighting or poisoning, are due to a type of rejection process by members of the affected colony. These losses peak at about 12 days after queen removal and then slowly stabilise to a pre-queen-loss level. This pseudo-queenright condition is attained because functional laying workers produce queen substance or something similar. Under these conditions the colony is reluctant to raise queens and frequently tear down those queen cells already built. “According to the queen substance theory of Butler the presence of the queen suppresses (a) the stimulus to build queen cells and (b) the development of ovaries in the workers. Because even in queen-right colonies of the Cape honey bee the workers often develop functional ovaries, it must be assumed that there is insufficient queen substance to suppress this in normal sized colonies. “To develop a method of controlled queen rearing in this race of honey bee a method had to be devised to balance the supply of this queen substance phenorome. It had to be present in quantities sufficient to suppress further ovary development and yet not enough to discourage queen cell building.” Hell of a thing, this capensis thing. Hell of a thing. My best regards to you all, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:14:47 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: ENN on Ruskis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ENN is produced by the Natl Geog Soc. Here is a piece from their news today, without comment: Mite resistant Russians strengthen American bees America's domestic and wild honey bees have taken a beating this year from a combination of parasitic mites and a bitter winter. Now, a newly introduced sturdy Russian honey bee is helping to fortify America's beleaguered bees. http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/2001/06/06202001/bees_44040.asp - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:35:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Getting rid of an aggressive hive In-Reply-To: <200105261933.f4QJXrJ26632@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105261933.f4QJXrJ26632@listserv.albany.edu>, Guy Miller writes >I have a hive that is a pain, in every sense of the word, and I have decided >to get rid of it. I recently saw a post suggesting 50 pounds of dry ice >which would smother them, and do no harm to the hive. I found a source for >dry ice, but the charge was .95 per pound. Is there a cheaper way? How >about a small kitchen-style foam fire extinguisher? Think that would work? >Any other suggestions? A bit late but I am about to do the following, posted here some time ago. Brave the hive twice more! Split it by removing the brood chamber 3 feet (1m) to the side and reverse its entrance. Place a new box on the old site with one frame of brood so they can make a new queen, maybe with a couple of frames to draw and a dummy board. Put the hive back together and retreat for a while. When things have settled down, find and kill the old queen or remove her to the nucleus from which the new queen is coming - a straight swap, in cages. Watch how they take to the new queen. If all is well, let her out. In 9 days (or 7 or 10 or whatever your visit schedule is) kill all cells at the old site, put the frame back into the main colony and put this back on to the original site. Comments please. I have reared some nice new queens and I don't want to lose one. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 21:53:32 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Wax Efficiency in Honey Storage In-Reply-To: <200105271105.f4RB5SJ13599@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105271105.f4RB5SJ13599@listserv.albany.edu>, Alan Riach writes >For storage of honey in supers, slightly less wax is needed (for a given >amount of honey stored) if the honey is stored in Drone cells as opposed >to Worker cells and indeed the bees themselves will often fill in a >damaged piece of super with drone cell. >So, here is the question - why don't we use drone foundation in our >supers in order to give the bees a slightly easier task in drawing out >the larger (more efficient cells) ? I do. So do lots of others. You can buy drone foundation from any UK supplier. >Are there other subtle disadvantages such as, larger cells making it >more difficult to dry the honey, or drone cells encouraging laying >workers far away from the brood nest in pheromone- weak areas? Unknown. I occasionally have drone brood in supers and no evidence of the queen getting up. Murray recommended removing queen excluders for the summer or heather flow, so empty comb, such as is often left just above the nest might encourage drones to be reared. I wait for my tests to see if this happens. Also cut comb - I suspect most people would prefer worker sized but have never tested this. My worker foundation strips seem to be drawn on as worker size, mostly. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:22:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Queenless Behavior In-Reply-To: <200105310123.f4V1NwJ06102@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200105310123.f4V1NwJ06102@listserv.albany.edu>, Al Lipscomb writes >> These queenless bees oriented, foraged and stored pollen. In other >> words, looked just like a queenright colony! I have observed the >> same before but never in a colony which began (in their current hive, >> anyway) queenless. >> >Drop in a frame with eggs and see how they react. If they pull cells then you >know there is no queen. If, as George suggests, there is a virgin queen in the >hive you will have young bees available when the new queen starts to lay. I have been told that doing this at the wrong time might encourage a freshly mated queen to lay too early and produce drones. Any comment? In other words, leave the test till she has had time to mate and incubate. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:25:38 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Robert Mann Subject: analysis of fluvalinate in beeswax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The abstract below shows there exists a sensitive method to measure fluvalinate (active ingr of Apistan® varroa treatment) in beeswax. The eqpt mentioned is not widespread, requiring $10^5 - $10^6 capital and skilled technical help. That is the easy part. Assessing the biological significance of whatever gets measured entails much larger uncertainties. If things go true to prior form, the history of this issue will be essentially: 1 Ignore 2 When concern has been expressed by enough citizens who think it matters, deny; mock concerned scientists & medicos 3 Without conceding any potential harm, agree to monitor; use word 'perception' liberally 4 Delay a year or so 5 Rig media coverage to show concern only from ignorant hysterical politicians rather than scientists capable of discussing the matter; convert it into a WimminsLib issue if at all possible 6 Steer funding to compliant scientists who are willing to select samples so the levels are expected to be relatively low 7 Try to get employers to sack any independent experts who suggest not all is OK 7 If measured levels turn out to be 'low', trumpet the announcement as "proof of harmlessness"; if 'high', suppress if possible, or alternatively slip out quietly thru media stooges who will make nothing of them. 8 Neglect alternative responses to the problem which use less toxic natural materials or different husbandry methods. I have seen this modus operandi applied (with variations) to many chemicals. I have no reason to believe actual levels of fluvalinate in beeswax matter much; I have no opinion on the matter, as we are around only Stage 1.5 in this case. But it is certainly not too soon to underline item (8). Also, I have been trying to point out that from now on we can expect a further step in the official routine: (9) Pretend that gene-tampering is a promising approach to the problem, and divert most of the funding to gene-jiggering projects which have almost no chance of helping (and may themselves do novel harm to bees or other organisms). R The analysis of fluvalinate in beeswax using GC/MS _ Food Research International_ Volume 32, Issue 1, January 1999, Pages 35-41 Suzanne Frison, Walter Breitkreitz, Robert Currie, Don Nelson and Peter Sporns Abstract A method for quantitation of the synthetic pyrethroid fluvalinate in beeswax has been developed. The method uses the internal standard permethrin added in the first acetonitrile extraction step. Subsequent cleanup involves partitioning into ether and use of a florisil column. The final gas chromatography was performed on a capillary column with selected ion monitoring detection using a mass spectrometer. The presence of fluvalinate was confirmed by the retention times of two identical peaks which had a 75:25 area ratio of the peaks at m/z of 250:252 (ion contains chlorine). Fluvalinate recovery of 108 and 97% were obtained at the 0.52 and 1.04 ppm spike level (respectively) using peak area calculations. The detection limit was determined to be 0.05 ppm. Author Keywords: Permethrin; Acaride; Residue; Synthetic pyrethroid; Mite control ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:58:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: . . .bear damage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Frank, Be sure you recognize "queen cups". They are vertically oriented and open at the bottom. I know some disagree but personally I seriously doubt that a queen EVER places an egg in a queen cup. Don't call it a queen cell unless you see a larva in it or unless it is capped. My advice is to pay no attention at all to queen cups; I don't think they mean more than that a few nurse bees would like to have a new queen started. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:54:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pollen dryness I collect and sell a great deal of pollen, almost all in 30 pound plastic bags. Up until now, I have used a very informal system for determining when it is dry enough to pack...when it doesn't turn to mush by gently rubbing between my fingers and thumb. Drying is a key component to pollen processing. If pollen is too dry it tastes terrible, and has a "mouth feel" like sand! This is because all the nectar added by the bee when the pollen was collected has been evaporated. "Fresh" pollen, such as that in the bag beside me when I drive home after emptying my traps, is as tasty as blueberries or raspberries and I eat it as quickly. However, pollen is full of protein and vitamins and if the moisture is much above 20% it will be attacked by bacteria or fungus, or both. Does anyone know of a hand-held moisture meter that could be used to take a reading from pollen? I know these meters are used for all kinds of grains and even for wood, but I have no idea what they are called or where to start looking. Any help will be appreciated. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:37:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Me Subject: Re: pollen dryness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd, In my previous profession, Industrial Hygiene and Environmental Health, I used a meter for determining moisture in various objects. It has two metal probes that you touch to whatever you want to take a reading on. Contact any large university and ask to speak to their Safety Officer to find out more information about such devices. Another device is used for testing the moisture in the soil. This may be better and cheaper. Check with a professional garden supply or nursery. I like the idea of setting some sort of standard for pollen moisture. Please let us all know what you find out. Mark (The Little/Coldiron Farm) If what you're doing seems too hard..., You're probably doing it wrong. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:18:36 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: pollen dryness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Lloyd and All: >Drying is a key component to pollen processing. If pollen is too dry it >tastes terrible, and has a "mouth feel" like sand! This is because all the >nectar added by the bee when the pollen was collected has been evaporated. >"Fresh" pollen, such as that in the bag beside me when I drive home after >emptying my traps, is as tasty as blueberries or raspberries and I eat it as >quickly. > >However, pollen is full of protein and vitamins and if the moisture is much >above 20% it will be attacked by bacteria or fungus, or both. I have dried pollen, and frozen it. For using for making up pollen supplement my favorite method of preserving it is packing in sugar. For using for human consumption I like packing it in honey. I have some customers for that, but the problem is the pollen balls break down in the honey and the whole thing goes into a paste which is usually an unappealing brownish shade (depending on source). Any ideas or comments on this method anyone? I am surprised it is not more common. The flavour is excellent IMHO. Stan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:19:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Getting rid of an aggressive hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" James Kilty wrote: > Brave the hive twice more! Split it ... new box on the old site with one > frame of brood so they can make a new queen .... I agree with the moving the old hive and a nuc to catch field bees and all that stuff, but I think the plan to include a frame to allow the bees to raise a new queen is flawed. If the hive is aggressive to the point that you're going through all this work to replace the queen, I'd want to get her genes out of my gene pool. Allowing the bees to raise queens from a nasty queen's eggs is likely to propogate her nasty self. I'd find the queen (which will be easier after moving the original hive) and kill her. I'd then attempt to introduce a queen from a reputable breeder (or one of your own raised from a better natured hive). A pro for a queen from a breeder is it introduces new genes to your pool, which can be a balance against inbreeding. Taking the "remove the nasty genes from the pool" argument to its extreme, one would also want to remove the nasty drones too. A drone trap could be in order, or if one is really concerned Guy's original strategy (dry ice the hive) may not be out of line. It all depends on how diligent an operation is in maintaining its queens. If a laisse fair attitude is employed (let 'em alone to groe their own), then one should be more concerned with the gene pool. On the other hand, if one tends on a regular basis to keep their queens young and replaced from breeders who strive to grow "good" queens for a living, the gene pool in their yards is of lesser concern. PS: I just reread James' post, and note that he did not say where the frame of brood put into the nuc came from. If it's coming from the nasty hive I think it's a bad plan. If it comes from a well natured hive, the plan is sound. The whole queen thing is a science unto itself. There is a good article on the topic in the archives titled (I think) "Good Queens Don't Just Happen". http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9803D&L=bee-l&P=R1691 The conversations arount that article is also good reading. BEE-L Archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:23:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, > < Because even in queen-right colonies of the Cape honey bee the workers > insufficient Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ozark Electronics Subject: Re: pollen dryness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Does anyone know of a hand-held moisture meter that could be used to >take a >reading from pollen? I know these meters are used for all kinds of >grains >and even for wood, but I have no idea what they are called or where to >start >looking. You might get a grain moisture meter from a farm store. But it is my experience that hand held devices are of questionable accuracy (usually accurate within 5 or 10% at best) . How often do you check them for accuracy? I used to sell an $8,000 infrared device, occasionally we would calibrate it with something as simple as a scale (triple beam balance) and a toaster oven. This is the weight loss on drying method. It is somewhat time consuming but is pretty cheap and accurate as long as you don't over dry the substance you are weighing. My suggestion would be to weigh prior to putting the sample in the oven, then continue weighing every few minuets until it stops loosing weight. the difference is the weight of water in the sample which can be converted to % moisture by weight. Knox Adler Marthasville, MO ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:39:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Thanks Barry for all the information on the capensis problem. I find it very interesting that you talk about "hybrid" colonies but it actually sounds from your description that the capensis and the scuts are not interbreeding - in fact the capensis is taking over the scut colony. Is there evidence of actual interbreeding between the scuts and the capensis? Colonies of intermediate characteristics? If not it sounds to me that you are dealing with two different species of honey bees. One ( the capensis ) seems to have a different pheromone system that allows it to take over scut colonies but the two populations do not blend together as they would is they were interbreeding. It also leads to the question of the honey bees of Africa - are there several species of honey bees in Africa as there are in Asia? Similar in appearance but reproductively separate? There is some research evidence from the western hemisphere that the African honey bees and the European honey bees ! don't interbreed and blend together. Dr Chip Taylor has some evidence of assortive mating and the lack of the hybrids beyond the first generation in the wild both suggest that the honey bees could actually be different species. We talk about all these honey bees being one species but if they are all the charactistics should be blending together in areas of contact between the races. If we are dealing with multiple species many of the issues are directly answered such as why the capensis and the scut have existed in overlapping areas without blending together. It could also help us understand what is happening with the African honey bees in the western hemisphere and why the migration has changes so much as they entered more temperate areas. Just some observations on this very interesting topic. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:54:34 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Pickling pollen (was dryness) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have not yet tried this myself, but it seems a good idea... First pickle the pollen in liquid honey, then warm some Oilseed Rape (Canola) honey that has crystallised, until it becomes just plastic, then mechanically mix the two together without incorporating any air. This will appear brighter due to the reflectivity of the crystals and the pollen will remain in suspension. The mechanical stirring will stop solidification as it produces a thixotropic matrix. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:42:41 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Not sure whether Bob or Barry said this > I put forth the hypothesis early on in the > discussion possibly the workers had mated with drones when normal queens > were raised from capensis worker eggs. I believe Anderson suspected the > same thing when he looked at capensis . Are you suggesting in flight mating as with "normal" queens? I was under the impression that sight as well as smell was involved in drones recognising a queen in flight. As workers would normally accompany a queen or be close by, surely the drones must be in some way be programmed to ignore workers even if they smelled like the queen due to physical contact with her. I do not see how a drone could get excited enough without being in flight to achieve eversion pressure in an "indoor" environment. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman