From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:54 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B054D24AE10 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO3b010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO3b010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:52 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0106D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 152182 Lines: 3305 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:16:38 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On the "alarming" behaviour of capensis, given that its readiness to lay "female" eggs is presumably only the start of its unusual characteristics, it strikes me on general biological grounds that we are nearing the end of current useful theoretical discussion. I'm all for continuing theorising, and am much impressed with ideas we've had recently Out Of Africa and elsewhere. But what is most urgently needed is actual experimentation in controlled breeding. Hypotheses will have to be formed to guide the experiments and to compare with the outcomes, but surely it's empirical fact that we're after now. What characteristics would be expected from which hybrids? Which other unexpected properties should be monitored (taking note of the variability which I mentioned a few days ago)? I mean not to suggest such q's aren't obvious but to point out how neglected they are in official agencies which are starved for resources to look into them. This leads me to suggest that actual bee science is in a dire drought. Govt research stations are being screwed down, in the USA and here. The practical response of the NZ govt to the discovery of varroa here in April 2000 has been pretty pathetic. Real scientists, technicians, operating expenses, travel to confabs in S. Africa, etc, are starved while the govt pours millions into ideological or plain stupid capers in other fields. The known ecological and economic significance of bees is so enormous that it warrants MANY TIMES the current effort in cross-breeding strains of bee and recording the empirical facts on the progeny. What should be organised is an international team of experts to plan and implement breeding programmes including capensis. If the world were not gone crazy on Mammon, as manifested in the WTO and other agencies, govts would have this in hand. Where can the organising focus be found today for such urgent bee research? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:09:46 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Pollen dryness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A rough method we use here in Australia is to take a pellet of pollen = and place it on your thumb nail and crush it with your other thumb nail. = If it crushes, it is too wet. If it does not then it is dry. I have = been told that the moisture content to aim for is around 10%.=20 I have used oven dry methods where the sample is placed in the oven and = dried until all the moisture is removed. The problem here was to find = out if you divided the difference in weight by the original weight or = the oven dry weight. I found a difference of opinion on this. When = calculating the moisture content of timber (lumber) you use the oven dry = weight. So the formula for calculating the moisture content of timber = is the difference in the weight between the original weight and the oven = dry weight divided by the oven dry weight then multiply by 100 to bring = to percent. FWIW. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:30:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) Comments: To: Dave Cushman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, Bob wrote: > > I put forth the hypothesis early on in the > discussion possibly the >workers had mated with drones when normal queens > were raised from >capensis worker eggs. I believe Anderson suspected the > > same thing when he looked at capensis . Dave wrote: > Are you suggesting in flight mating as with "normal" queens? Anderson disected a huge number of capensis laying workers to see if any spermatozoa was to be found. Anderson has studied capensis as much (i believe) as any researcher. Why else would he look if he didn't believe that might be the answer. Anderson (1961) wrote no spermatozoa was found in any sample. Research done on other insects led to bee researchers to see if a. mellifera worker (other than the cape bee) could lay a fertile egg and the egg grow into a normal queen. Through much trial and a lot of error the feat was accomplished. So our own bees are capable of the feat just like capensis if put under certain situations. I could provide researchers names and dates but bottling honey today and need to get back to work. I might add to the post later. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: lkrengel@mc.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Larry Krengel Subject: The royal bugle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just an interesting note. After beekeeping for more than ten years and hearing stories about the new queen bugling I heard it for the first time. I keep a specimen hive just off my front porch so when I sit and rock, I can watch the bees. Of all the hives to decide to swarm this year, it was this one. Last Sunday there was a sudden furor of activity as a swarm came from the hive and perched forty feet high in a large oak tree. I chose to let it go. Saddened by the event, I went into the hive to find a half dozen capped queen cells. Being so close to the house, I have gone in regularly for the last couple of days to see how things are developing. Yesterday when I took off the top of the hive, I heard the usual hum, but also a bugling sound. I followed the sound as I removed frames until the frame I had in my hand was obviously the source. With a little study, there she was... my new queen singing to her subjects. I watched for a while. She didn't seem to act very regal. I suspect that she was not yet mated, but she was a great musician. She continued to bugle as I watched. I suspected that the beating of her wings made the sound, yet I could not identify any large motion. Nothing like the bees that do the von Frisch dance on the frames. Perhaps today she goes out to find the drones. I continue to enjoy my bees and they never cease to show me something new. Larry Krengel Marengo, IL USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:49:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles Frederic Andros Subject: Pollen Powered!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Beekeepers, Well, it's almost summer! This info is from my new 50th birthday = (June 17!) software, called CyberSky:=20 Seasons Data: Location Name USA, NH, Alstead Coordinates 072=B0 21' 13" W 43=B0 04' 53" N Spring Local time 20/03/2001 08:28:16 Universal time 20/03/2001 13:28:16 Julian date 2451989.061296 Duration 92.75 days Summer Local time 21/06/2001 02:34:37 Universal time 21/06/2001 07:34:37 Julian date 2452081.815706 Duration 93.64 days Fall Local time 22/09/2001 18:01:34 Universal time 22/09/2001 23:01:34 Julian date 2452175.459421 Duration 89.85 days Winter Local time 21/12/2001 14:19:31 Universal time 21/12/2001 19:19:31 Julian date 2452265.305220 Duration 89.00 days Perhaps you noted that summer is the longest season, and winter the = shortest! It pays to bee positive, especially when it comes to = beekeeping! When in doubt, super! The big one could be just around the = corner. That's why I recommend 3 medium supers per colony as a minimum, = and 2-3 deeps, depending on how much you like feeding your bees. Never = get behind with your bees, and you will get something out of them! Bee = prepared! Last year I ran out of supers, and figured the flow was about over = July 21, as it historically is, so didn't start extracting. Big = mistake! The basswood flow dragged on, followed by the mystery flow = (light, like basswood), and it didn't end until August 3, so as a result = I lost a few swarms and who knows how many buckets of honey! Bees don't = work as hard if they have no place to put it! They hang out on the = stoop and think of eloping! If you came to my workshop on July 23, 2000, you were treated to a = swarm in the birch tree on arrival, and then the bottom half of the same = 2-queener took off later in the session, settling on the same branch = that the other one had occupied earlier, before returning due to a = clipped queen. Unfortunately the second one never returned, as it had a = virgin! Live and learn, one hopes! Well, all my equalizing and requeening and broodnest optimizing is = paying off. It's much easier to find those nicely capped deep brood = frames now, and bees are plentiful! I'm also glad I started on my = weight training on my return from Brasil on March 8th and began = bicycling in April. The supers are getting heavier and putting that = upper brood box back on is not so easy now! I need lots of energy to = keep up with the bees, and what makes a huge difference is the cup or = two of bee pollen I consume daily at breakfast and on return from pollen = collecting/scale-hive weighing, often after 19:00. If you don't know about pollen, it is the most complete food found = in nature, packed with vitamins, minerals, and protein. Pollen is known = for alleviating allergies, has cancer-fighting properties, as it is an = immune system booster, and is delicious! Contact me for all the pollen = specs. The B-vitamin content is remarkable, and there is no pun = intended! These vitamins are responsible for metabolism of calories, = and you will believe it when you try it! Take a look at the send time = of this document and you will understand better! I learned about collecting pollen in 1981, in Captain Cook, HI, when = I worked at Kona Queen Company, in HI, raising queen bees. Gus Rouse's = wife Barrie had collected it in CA and brought some traps to HI, and = started a pollen business. We got hooked quickly on the Kona coffee = pollen, so sweet and energizing! Patrick, from Quebec, had his brother = Stefan, of the handlebar mustache, bring out an OAC (Ontario = Agricultural College) trap, which was bottom mounted and a considerable = improvement on the USDA front-mounted trap. We set it up on a = side-by-side half-length nuc-body 2-queen hive on the roof outside the = kitchen window, for easy snacking! Just slid out the tray at the back, = conveniently facing the window! There was a Caucasian queen in one = half, and an Italian on the other side. No racial slurs, as far as we = could discern! We had excluders above and below the brood area to = prevent the queen encounters. We got up to a cup and a half of pollen = per day, not bad for a hive we set up in February! Of course we boosted = it plenty in the beginning with "left over" bulk bees after making up = nucs. It was a rainy year with plenty of mushrooms, but that is another = story! I'll never forget Patat the Frenchman's laughing! We played = some great music together on the porch watching the endless Hawaiian = sunset under the big mango tree! He played guitar, I played banjo, and = occasionally a French Canadian woman would stop by with her concertina! = French was the language that year! That summer, I began collecting pollen from my bees in the = Connecticut River Valley in Walpole, New Hampshire, and Westminster, = Vermont. I started with USDA type traps but another year made some OAC = traps. Later, I got an Amish fellow from PA to make me some traps with = inner cone bee escapes to let the drones out. Before, I had to staple = them on an augur hole in a hive body, but the sun was hard on the = plastic. David would make me a trap, then I would test it, and later = send back recommendations for improvements. Eventually, the traps evolved, using heavy stainless screen in the = pollen drawer, to be food grade, and allow for daily scraping of the = screen as nectar drips down from above sometimes! I requested the = cones, which increased from 3 to 10, be left out until after I = parafinned them, which prevents warping and possible leaks, which means = the bees can bypass the screens. Now the cones are made of screen, so I = can wax away at 250=B0+. David came up with some other innovations, = such as beeways to distribute the pollen, and a lauan trash deflector = above the 5/"mesh stripping screens, but I found little use for these = "improvements," as the beeways only pile the pollen up on the outer = sides of the tray, and the trash deflector prevents varroa trapping, a = great side benefit! David still custom makes traps for me, and you will = see his style (unwaxed) for sale in most of the catalogs for $65. I use = 7/ and 8/" mesh to sift out chalkbrood mummies and such. In fact, trapping pollen is how I discovered I had varroa in Spring = 1995, when I heard varroa crawling on the newspaper I had winnowed the = unfrozen pollen over, eager for a taste of the fresh post-dandelion = pollen that is my favorite. Usually I freeze it for 2 days to kill ants = and mites to allow winnowing. They can't hang on to a pellet after a = couple of days in the freezer! About 40% of varroa mites fall while = moving from one bee to another. When they fall into the trap, they wait = for a bee to come along, and none can reach them. So they starve! = Tough luck, suckers! My pollen traps harvest about 2/3rds of the incoming pollen, but the = bees collect 3 times as much in order to make up for the deficit. Only = stronger colonies are used for pollen production. I feed strong-tasting = pollen back to my 43 2-queen colonies of bees in the spring when there = is a lack of pollen. As a lover of bee pollen, I quickly realized that = bee pollen is very perishable. Without refrigeration, the flavor and = vitamins are quickly degraded due to the high enzyme content and = moisture. Therefore, I collect the pollen every day, as opposed to = every 3-7 days in commercial operations. =20 The berries are history, now there's a good pollen flow, which = allows the bees to clear out nectar from the brood area for the queen to = lay more eggs. You know, bees don't worry much about brood rearing = during a good honey flow, or care much what queen is in there, you can = switch a queen from one hive to another with impunity, especially if at = a similar stage of egg-laying. I've been doing considerable requeening = during the flow, as there is always a queen suffering from May workout. = I tolerate them as long as there are no supersedure cells, but when the = pattern never has a solid area of 2" plus, it's time for usurpation! = Acceptance has been excellent! Sometimes chalkbrood makes it difficult = to see a good capped brood pattern, then you have to look at unsealed = brood. I love Russians raised by Russians; can't you hear the = balalaikas? My home hive #1 has been amazing, in my garden at 1150'. So far = I've pulled 9 frames of brood! In May it gained 2.75#, while many = others lost. In June it has gained 32.25# so far, not counting the = pollen I remove daily. It has had better luck with the flows, which = have been better timed in relation to the rains. However, it didn't = have as much black locust as the valley, where #34 made 41.25 this month = and gained 13.25 in May, having come through the winter with 2 queens = intact. #33 is interesting: I made it up as a 2-queener on April 26, = with 2 2-frame nucs. It gained a pound in May and has gained 11 this = month! Below see my pollen collection data: 2001 MAY LBS. TOTAL NOTES 27 .1 .1 8 TRAPS BUTTERNUT BROOK: RAINY WEATHER 28 .6 .7 22 TRAPS SHOWERS: CHALKY! (+ = WILLIAMS YARD) 29 1.8 2.5 29 TRAPS (+ PAUL HARLOW YARD) 30 .5 3 29 31 .8 3.8 30 (+ HOME YARD) JUNE 1 1.7 5.5 =20 4 3.2 8.7 5 3.6 12.3 6 3.8 16.1 7 3 19.1 35 (+TOM HARLOW YARD) 8 2.5 21.6 9 2.4 24 10 3.9 27.9 11 1 28.9 36 RAIN 12 4.3 33.2 ROSE STARTING! 13 7.5 40.7 NEW CONTAINERS FOR ROSE! 14 8.3 49 38 TRAPS (+ 3 WILLIAMS YARD) 15 7.6 56.6 =20 16 6.3 62.9 18 6.9 69.8 155 LBS. LAST YEAR THIS DATE! 109# 1999, = 210.2# 1998, 60.5# 1997 (26 colonies in these latter years), 79.2# 1996, = 162.4# 1995, 65.9# 1994 Multifora rose (Rosa multiflora) is Japanese revenge! We = brought it in for natural fencing during the war to conserve steel for = the war machine. Like Knotweed, it has run rampant over the landscape, = but I sure appreciate it as a pollen producer! The bees gather huge = pellets; I guess it doesn't have much nectar; they usually lose weight = during its bloom. This allows for the big loads! Usually chalkbrood = winds down during this flow, showing how important pollen is for the = bees. =20 Today I saw sumac about ready to produce in Bellows Falls on a = bank by the Connecticut! This can be a heavy producer, so brace = yourself for another nectar onslaught! Keep me posted on your bee news! When in doubt. Charles Frederic Andros Linden Apiaries since 1973 Former NH/VT Apiary Inspector '78-'89 18 McLean Road POB 165 Walpole, NH 03608-0165 603-756-9056 lindena@sover.net Residence: Latitude 43=B0 04' 53" North, Longitude 72=B0 21' 13" West, = Elevation 363 meters=20 Keeper of 43 two-queen colonies for unheated honey, fresh-frozen pollen, = propolis tincture, Bee Complex facial, pollination, nuclei, beeswax, = candles, apitherapy, workshops, and supplies "Learn, experiment, innovate, educate!"=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:06:14 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What term is used for the artificial/instrumental insemination of, for example, dairy cows? The same usage should be followed with honey bees as is used in the rest of the agricultural world. > Lets all see future books on beekeeping use the correct terms. For the archives: > Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be inseminated and > gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 years we should expect bee books > to use the correct terms. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:04:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Swarm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not sure but I think that one of my new hives may have swarmed? Some Info. * New hive this spring (3 pd. package) * Not near as many bees as two weeks ago * Has two boxes on hive (deep type) * When checking this week (Tues.) noticed in top box three queen cells being produced * Didn't check bottom box yet Any suggestions? Rodney in VA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Mares Subject: love triumphs over fear? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A local newspaper reporter bent on a story about bees and beekeepers asked me if I knew anyone who is "deathly afraid of bees, but still keeps them out of love." I said I didn't know but would post to BEE-L. If you are (or know) such a person, reply to me off-list and I'll sic the reporter on you (him/her). Thanks, Bill Mares/Mares Apiaries 429 South Willard St., Burlington, VT 05401 Phone: 802-863-4938 Fax: 802-864-7982 Bee Happy in your work! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:12:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Dead Bee Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have a good simple, cheap design for a dead bee trap? On occasion, I'd like to be able to examine every bee that dies in certain selected hives. There are several reasons, but the main one is to watch for dead queens immediately after introduction -- without opening or disturbing the hive. I know that in the case of rejected queens in packages in springtime, that the dead monarch can often be discovered on the ground immediately below the entrance board on one sided or the other, but in summer and with larger hives, the dead bees are often carried away and leave no trace. http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:48:04 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Dead bee trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > Does anyone have a good simple, cheap design for a dead bee trap? When I worked for the Queensland Department of Primary Industries, we had a dead bee trap that we used in trials. It fitted over the front of the hive. It was about 8 inches high and as wide as the hive. In our case it was 16 inches wide and about 20 inches deep and made out of galvanized sheet metal. We had a punched queen bee excluder that fitted over the top of this container and the bees had to go through this excluder to exit and re-enter the hive. On the bottom of the container was a grid. The dead bees were brought out of the hive by the bees and as they tried to take them out through the excluder, would be released and drop down beneath the grid. We could take the container away to count the dead bees. We had the dead bee trap this big as we often did insecticide trials and the affect on bees so needed to be able to hold large numbers. For simple trials, it could be made smaller. When you put this on a hive, it has to be a hive by itself or alternatively all hives must have the dead bee trap. If you have one hive with the dead bee trap and the others do not, the field bees will drift into hives nearby. Hope this helps. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:09:03 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: drone trapping In-Reply-To: <200106050009.f5509sP00738@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200106050009.f5509sP00738@listserv.albany.edu>, GImasterBK@AOL.COM writes >Because the gestation >time for a drone is 24 days, 3 days longer than worker brood gestation, it >would appear that the female mite prefers to lay her mite eggs with drone >larva rather than worker larva, hence providing more food for her mite >progeny as well as perhaps more mites per bee cell than a worker bee cell. If I may add a small comment to George's point, I was taught that the varroa detects the drones by smell, which was said to be connected to the different feeding of the drone before capping, and a different pH. Hence the mechanism. >Hence, by entering one frame of drone size foundation into a brood nest and >removing it BEFORE the drones emerge would badly deplete the Varroa >population of a colony. The amount of drone brood foundation would depend on the number of mites available to enter cells at the time. Unless the population were very large, I suggest a whole frame would be too many. Only a small proportion of the drones would carry varroa and the ratio of effort to varroa loss would be too high. The Eastern Europeans developed a method where 3 frames with a portion of drone foundation were put in at intervals of a week and removed at the same interval. One round would be fine, covering 21 days. If I remember right, one third of a frame's worth or less was fine. Various approaches have been used from detachable sections, returned after freezing, to sections cut out. Super frames can be used but not together in a block, or the comb goes every which way across the bottoms. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:36:34 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: splits In-Reply-To: <200106051252.f55CqTP14934@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200106051252.f55CqTP14934@listserv.albany.edu>, huestis writes >I usually wait two weeks but 10 days probably would work if in a hurry. >Some bees may remeber old colony but I doubt most will. Best to just bring >bees from one yard to another. I realize this isn't alwasys possible. Good >luck. I wonder if the explanation resides in the bees extraordinary flexibility. On swarming, I gather it rewrites its memory of the environment so as to be able to relocate to the new entrance, however near or far it is away from the original. It follows that once all bees have relocated, on flying, they will not remember the original site. Since also, older bees would take to the wing immediately the weather is right, and they are the ones that remember furthest from the original location, that it would take few flying days to completely reset the whole complement of flying bees. I think this reasoning would be quite easy to test. Any evidence available? -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:05:05 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello fellow Bee-L'ers. Seven plus years of continous research with varroa mites have provided me vast information regarding mite behaviour, and I believe there is still a lot to be learned regarding its biology and behaviour. For years, I have believed and proposed that mite infestation of drone cells is logistically related. Dr. Remy Vandeme, University of Chiapas in South Mexico, states that experiements with substances resembling pheromones intended to determine if indeed pheromones were responsible for drone selection by foretic varroa mites did not pan out. He also states that "mechanical factors" may be influential in drone cell selection. Dr. Vandame's work (publised in a 32 page article) is exhaustive and very valuable to those who may be interested in this field. See, Apiservices-Curso Nº 2 Control Alternativo de varroa, page 8, par 1. Please visit: http://apicultura.com/articles/control_varroa/curso2.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:40:34 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Dead Bee Trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all This is dredged up from a distant memory, but it worked by splitting incoming bees and out going bees. The entrance was three parallel sheets of thin ply with bee spaces between. The upper space was "incoming" and was fitted with a dozen or so porter escapes to allow bees in, but not out. The topmost and lowest sheet of ply were 50 mm shorter than the middle one and the outgoing slot was painted with matt black "blackboard" paint. Entry to the outgoing slot from inside the hive was through a piece of round hole pollen stripper grid. It worked as all bees arriving back from foraging were descending and landed on the projecting "shelf" Any orienting bee on its first flight would rise about 150 mm before taking it's first "fix" and so would return to the top slot. The projection hid the bottom slot from sight. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:58:37 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one thought has been puzzling me, its been shown that many small amd not so small invertebrates can be frozen then thawed and successfully walk away. i havnt seen this discussed in relation to varroa. Has anybody tried freezing and thawing varroa to see if this does actually kill all of them in the drone brood ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:49:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Basswood Timetable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So the best advice I can give is watch your trees, identify them > if possible, be ready with supers when the buds first appear, and > write back and tell us when basswood blooms in your area! Just a quick note, I began seeing blossoms on the basswood trees here in central lower Michigan last week. Actually, if memory serves, it was the 21st., the first day of summer! Happy Beekeeping to all. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:29:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is an attempt to answer some of the questions on AM capensis, particularly those raised last week by Blane White. Just why capensis workers can lay eggs that can be raised as females remains a mystery. German researchers are currently having another crack at solving why a capensis worker can lay an egg with 32 chromosomes (female), vs. workers of all other bee races that can only lay eggs with 16 chromosomes (males). A capensis worker lays unfertilised female eggs. In practical terms, it means nothing more and nothing less than a capensis worker cloning itself. It’s still early days, so take it as strictly hearsay that at this stage the researchers have developed two ideas. First, that the capensis worker’s abilities are a genetic mistake. But the researchers would then have to establish why practically every capensis worker has this talent, generation after generation. They would also have to solve the puzzle of why a notable percentage of eggs laid by capensis workers are not viable. Idea number two is that capensis workers’ ability to lay female eggs is somehow triggered by a viral infection. There are few, if any, that classify AM capensis and AM scutellata as different sub-species. They are simply different races of the honey bee, and, as such, hybridise. In their natural overlapping range, this has no doubt happened for millennia. But the different climatic conditions preferred by the two races cannot be over stressed. In terms of the African continent, capensis lives in a very small area, the Western Cape. This is characterised by its wet winters, howling winds and other seasonally unpleasant factors. (In defence of Cape Town, I must add that a perfect day in that fair city ranks with the best in the world). Pure capensis colonies living in natural scut terrain are unproductive and miserable. The modern position was aggravated by the migration, about a decade ago, of hundreds of capensis colonies some 1000 miles from their natural range to just north of Pretoria. They were moved onto natural scut ground, and “parasitised” hundreds of scut hives. Many thousands of colonies are migrated to this flow, the aloe davyana, building up right now. With this level of “infection,” and continued migrations by beekeepers, just about all economic bee areas in South Africa are now “overlap territory.” As to other races on this continent, researchers have documented up to 12. In Kenya, for example, you again find scuts, and also monticola and luterea. But it’s probably safe to say that nowhere in the world would you find a beekeeping problem remotely similar to what you now find in South Africa. Capensis’ “unique” talents present the following conundrums. First, colony sub-families. It is widely accepted that a queen of any race may mate with up to 20 drones. If a scut queen mates with, say, a pure capensis drone, that particular colony sub-family is set for trouble making; more so when the scut queen is partially capensis. Every South African scut colony is, in essence, a time bomb. Let’s say the imagined colony is migrated right now to the aloe davyana. This flow is nectar heavy in some areas, but pollen rich in practically all areas. It’s widely believed that if a capensis-rich egg is laid (by the queen), it starts secreting a hormone (or similar) immediately on hatching - if not from within the egg. The nurse bees are seriously attracted to such larvae and, given the added factor of endless pollen pouring into the nest, start “super feeding” such larvae. These workers emerge as some kind of an intercaste. They recognise - effectively - zero phenoromes from their own queen mother, and start laying (female, of course) eggs. That’s the beginning of the end of the colony. Period. Kaput. Hence the “time bomb” concept: on more marginal flows, such a colony may last for ages, with the scut queen hanging in on her scent just marginally dominating that of the capensis-rich eggs and larvae. In summary, man-made influences inducing stress (mainly heavy handling and migration) and certain natural influences (mainly heavy flows) may initiate capensis destruction of a scut colony. The timing of the event is also influenced by the general structure and health of the colony, sub-families existent, and (similarly) the overall degree of hybridisation. Other factors also apply, such as a single capensis-rich worker invading a scut-rich colony. The number of permutations become endless and, of course, impossible to manage effectively. The spookiest factor in the capensis story is that the extent of destruction of “normal” colonies is evidently getting worse, not better. Indeed, it may now be the general belief that capensis behaviour (delayed as it may sometimes be) has become dominant genetically in South Africa’s “wild” bee population. I’m heading off to my queen apiaries in the bush for a week or so, and will be ”off-line.” But I am spending several days with a very learned scientist. And several other days chasing capensis-rich workers around the forests, if I find any. On my return I will try to write something further and far more intelligible about capensis. My best regards to you all, Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:29:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Dead bee trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Does anyone have a good simple, cheap design for a dead bee trap? > > When I worked for the Queensland Department of Primary Industries, we had a > dead bee trap that we used in trials. It fitted over the front of the hive. > It was about 8 inches high and as wide as the hive. > ...We had the dead bee trap this > big as we often did insecticide trials and the affect on bees so needed to > be able to hold large numbers. For simple trials, it could be made smaller. Thanks, and thanks to Dave too for his useful ideas. What I wonder now is what is the normal mortality of bees +inside a hive+ in summer? Anyone? allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:51:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Swarm ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney in VA wrote: > I am not sure but I think that one of my new hives may have swarmed? > Some Info. > * New hive this spring (3 pd. package) > * Not near as many bees as two weeks ago > * Has two boxes on hive (deep type) > * When checking this week (Tues.) noticed in top box three queen cells being > produced > * Didn't check bottom box yet > Any suggestions? ****************** Check the brood nest for eggs and young larvae to make sure that the colony has a queen. Are the queen cells sealed? Are they occupied by larvae? If the hive has no eggs or young larvae, I would place a frame (from another colony) with eggs and young larvae (but no adult bees) in the center of the brood nest as insurance. If the queen cells do not produce a queen, the bees can try again to raise one on the frame with eggs and young larvae. A few queen cells on the face of the comb may be evidence that the colony is trying to raise a new queen for itself. Bees may try to raise a new queen if they sense that something is wrong with the queen they have. Queen cells in a colony preparing to swarm are more likely to be on the bottom bars of frames, within the sphere of the brood nest. Swarming is a sign of a healthy colony. In SE Pennsylvania, a package installed this year is not likely to swarm this year. Bees sometimes start and abandon queen cells. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 18:20:58 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Dead bee trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote > What I wonder now is what is the normal mortality of bees +inside a hive+ in > summer? I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "inside a hive". If it is actual bees dying in a hive, then I would suggest it will be a lot less than those that die outside the hive. In our case, we have a lot of bees in the hive in late spring/early summer but by the end of summer the numbers have dropped off. The dead bees are not visible in front of the hive and it is not often that you see bees carrying away a lot of dead bees. I would suggest they die in the field. However, if Allen can get his trial up and running for his next summer, we will have a definitive answer. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Spray foam Hello All, A search of the archives produced no results for spray foam. Is the custom sprayed foam legal for the inside roof of a large honey house? The walls? Does the foam need to be painted? Bob Ps. We allready know of the hazard from fumes if a fire. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:09:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fw:_O=F9_sont_les_rejets_de_la_reine?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's one for the list: "...It is known that bees only defecate outside the hive. But does the queen go outside to relieve herself? Or are there bees that gather her droppings and take them out?"... I'll add to that the question: has anyone observed this? allen http://www.internode.net/Honeybee/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marie Roberge et Yves Charlebois" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 6:32 AM Subject: Où sont les rejets de la reine > Je sais que ce n'est pas une conversation très courue, mais je posais la > question suivante. > > On sait que les abeilles ne défèquent qu'à l'extérieur de la ruche. Mais la > reine, elle, sort-elle également pour se soulager? Ou bien il y a des > abeilles qui recueillent ses déjections et les sortent? > > Je n'ai jamais rien lu sur le sujet. > > Marie Roberge > balthaza@ivic.qc.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bees' demise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Trevor wrote: > dead bees are not visible in front of the hive and it is > not often that you see bees carrying away a lot of dead bees. I would > suggest they die in the field. A piece of info I have in my head which I cannot give a source and frankly am not sure if it is true or not, but I'll spill it anyway, is, "the most common cause of death in honeybees is starvation, due to the fact that they literally fly their little wings off until they're (the wings) are worn and tattered to the point that they will not support flight. Unable to fly anymore, the bees fall to the ground and subsequently starve." Again, I do not know where I picked this up and am not even sure it's true, but it's a factoid embedded in my (simple?) brain. So, is this fact or brain fart? Anyone? Aaron Morris - wondering about this one. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:18:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Rrprogramming bees (Was splits) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Since also, older bees would take to the wing immediately the weather is > right, and they are the ones that remember furthest from the original > location, that it would take few flying days to completely reset the > whole complement of flying bees. I think this reasoning would be quite > easy to test. Any evidence available? With all the splits and queen banks and everything I have been doing this season, I observed the following. I split a hive in yard A into 2 splits and one queen bank. I sold one split and moved the other, along with the queen bank to yard B over 13 miles away, where they were for (I recall but am not positive) 6 or 7 days. I then moved both to another location where they stayed for 3 days more. I subsequently move them to a location about a quarted mile from their original location in yard A. After 7-10 days (not sure exactly) and 3 moves, a small portion of populations from the split and/or bank returned and settled in an empty hive body that was on it's end, totally open with no top or bottom. I figured after the time and interveneing moves there would be no problem with bees returning to the original site. Some bees (about a grapefruit sized cluster) thought differently. Swarms readily reprogram. The bees in my split and bank reprogrammed to the location of the interveneing sites, but when moved back to close proximity of the original location, a portion returned home. I found this amazing! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Does queen defecate in hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > "...It is known that bees only defecate outside the hive. I don't believe the above is totally true but enough true put in print. Got to be accidents once in a while as I see signs in hives which are not very hygienic. >But does the queen go outside to relieve herself? I would say no. I have seen the queen defecate once but she did so while moving. > Or are there bees that gather her > droppings and take them out?".. . House cleaning bees in my opinion remove everything the bee considers foreign to the hives well being. Even dysentary with nosema spores. They propolis items to large to remove such as many times a dead mouse. The above is only my opinion and based on observations. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Does queen defecate in hive Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Read Maeterlink's "The Life of the Bee" He answered the age old question does the queen sjit in the hive? its now actually in the public domain and available on-line at http://www.eldritchpress.org/mm/b.html Dave At 08:33 AM 6/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hello All, > >> "...It is known that bees only defecate outside the hive. > >I don't believe the above is totally true but enough true put in print. Got >to be accidents once in a while as I see signs in hives which are not very >hygienic. > >>But does the queen go outside to relieve herself? > >I would say no. I have seen the queen defecate once but she did so while >moving. > >> Or are there bees that gather her >> droppings and take them out?".. >. >House cleaning bees in my opinion remove everything the bee considers >foreign to the hives well being. Even dysentary with nosema spores. They >propolis items to large to remove such as many times a dead mouse. The above >is only my opinion and based on observations. > >Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Brother Adam, Scuts and Buckfasts Comments: To: Dave Cushman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, >The trip of brother Adam that you mention was an early one. > There was another one later, during which he was given an unspecified number of scutellata queens. I personally believe that he accepted the gift > gracefully but did not even return them to the UK. I do not think he was > impressed with any of the characteristics that he saw. I have had > confirmation of my belief from other sources. There is some mention of this > event in the video "the monk and the honey bee". I was able to check out "the monk & the honey bee" from our beekeeping library and review the part we are talking about. The place was the Mario's estate in a place named *Magogo*(spelling?) . The tape says the purpose was to inspect a scut hive AND take a queen. The video shows the caging of a scut queen and 10 workers. Quote from video: "Its a matter of grabbing ten workers & running" "Bees from all over the apiary are joining in the attack" "protective bee suits are no defense" "Bees chased Brother Adam half a kilometer" Quote from Brother Adam: "They are extremely aggressive" "These bees surpass all the previous experence I have previously had" The tape says the truth needs to be told about scuts. Bob "thinking AHB *could* be in England" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:18:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeremy T Barnes Organization: N. C. Cooperative Extension Subject: Re: chemical and pollination MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, You are correct, these chemicals are toxic to bees. The only hive that I would be concerned about is the one that is very close to the corn field. Even so I don't think that you will have any problems. The bees don't have any reason to be in the corn field, so direct losses would be very little if any. Just to be on the safe side, I would talk to the farmer and see if he would try to spray this field very late in the afternoon. Also if he dosn't spray while it is windy will help. In North Carolina crop pollination is a big part of bee keeping. Prices around here range from about $35 to $45 per hive per season. Research has shown that at least a 1:2 ratio, one hive per two acres, is needed for cucumbers. For crops like seedless watermelons there needs to be a 1:1 ratio, one hive to one acre. I rent all of my hives for $40. You will have to check with other beekeepers in your area to see what a good rate would be. If you decide to rent out your hives then you will again find yourself with concerns about chemical application. It hepls to be in good communitaction with the farmer that you are working with. Get him to show you around and assist you in where to locate your hives. He will show you where they will be out of the way of any large equipment and labor that might be in the field. Try to get him to use chemicals that are less toxic to bees that others, and ask him to spray late in the evenings. Not only insecticides but some fungicides can be moderately toxic to bees. How about letting me know what you decide to do. I am curious to see what you could get for pollination up there. Jeremy Barnes -- Jeremy T Barnes Email : jtbarnes@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : (919) 496-3344 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:21:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Coldiron Subject: Texas Boll Weevil Eradication Program Hello All, The following is the text being sent out in the Texas "BOLL WEEVIL BULLETIN" June 2001. What's wrong with this?!! How many can you find? I've already contacted the EPA. Talk about David and Goliath! **************************************************************************** ********* "Honey bee reminder Malathion ULV is used to eliminate boll weevil populations in the eradication program. Although it is very safe for humans and mammals, malathion is toxic to bees. The eradication program only applies malathion to cotton plants, but honey bees do visit blooming cotton fields, and in active eradication zones, some treatments are applied to cotton during bloom. If you have hives, you can take the following steps to protect them. First, place hives as far away as possible from cotton fields. If they must be placed in an area where cotton is grown, consider moving them to another location while cotton is in bloom. Be sure to contact the district supervisor in your area and identify the location of your hives. You will be added to a notification list and be contacted if spraying will take place in your area. Our personnel want to work with you to protect your investment." **************************************************************************** ******* Thanks Mark (The Little/Coldiron Farm) If what you're doing seems too hard..., You're probably doing it wrong. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 13:12:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: chemical and pollination Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Just wanted to clearify something: ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us >>> jeremy_barnes@ncsu.edu 06/25/01 12:18PM >>> David, "You are correct, these chemicals are toxic to bees. The only hive that I would be concerned about is the one that is very close to the corn field. Even so I don't think that you will have any problems. The bees don't have any reason to be in the corn field, so direct losses would be very little if any." Sorry Jeremy, but here in the midwest at least honey bees do collect pollen from corn so you can get large bee kills if insecticide is applied during pollen shed. Still, advice to apply in evening is good as long as the material does not have residual toxicity and avoid direct drift of spray. FWIW blane ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:28:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Finding Queen Cells the easy way Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I had a discussion recently with an experienced beekeeper on the subject of swarm control. He told me that he uses the following system to obtain evidence of the existence of queen cells without having to open the brood chamber. He takes the roof off the hive, removes the inner cover a little until he can see the bees. Then if he sees many bees standing in rows like soldiers with their snouts pointing upwards this tells him that there are queen cells in that hive. If on the other hand the bees are ambling around rather aimlessly (at least to us), then it can be taken that there are no queen cells in that hive. He claims that he has used this system for 30 years and finds it dependable. He did say that in the beginning that he checked the brood chamber and found that the pointing bees always betrayed the existence of queen cells. Has anybody used this type of system and as always comments very welcome? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:23:11 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Does queen defecate in hive In-Reply-To: <200106251508.f5PF8OP29015@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave wrote: >Read Maeterlink's "The Life of the Bee" > >He answered the age old question does the queen sjit in the hive? > >its now actually in the public domain and available on-line at >http://www.eldritchpress.org/mm/b.html I must object to this advice. The question posed is a technical matter of fact, and obviously difficult to answer. I love Maeterlinck, as literature; but as technical info it is way out of date. When he wrote, many of the main facts on the life of the bee had not been discovered, much less a tricky item so difficult to observe as the queen's voiding. MM is NOT an authority on this - he was just making it up! R ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:51:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom & All, We all have got our systems. I think I will use the old method instead of the ones your friend told you. I will add that when you open the hive and all the hives stingers are in the air they are not in a mood to bee worked. Fire up the smoker. Ask your friend what he concludes from stingers in the air. Bee eyes looking up from the frames is not a good sign either. The whole hive has stopped going about there duties and are focused on you. Usually happens when a hive is entered without smoke. I will say bees moving about *rather aimlessly* as your friend says in early spring is a indicater they are queenless in the Midwest (U.S.). when other hives are in tight cluster. If the system works for your friend he should stick with his system. After 40+ years I can tell quite a bit by looking at a hive of bees but still have to look for queen cells. I will try your friends method on some hives and report back. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Hoping Tom's friends method works so I have lifted my last second hive body off to check for swarm cells! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:58:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James, So nice of you to say those nice things about my writings, I appreciate them Since colony death or severe illness caused by Varroa infection usually occurs in mid summer rather than in the spring, this is the time that worker bee brood is tapering off and the Varroa mite population is increasing dramatically. The IPM approach is to lower that mite population before it has a chance to get well under way, and this means removing mites BEFORE they are turned loose in the colony. Several researchers have deemed that a colony functions at its peak when it has a late spring drone population as high as 20% of the bee population. This sounds very high to me, but the researchers and scientists seem in agreement on the 20% figure. This suggests using 4 frames of drone foundation out of 20 brood frames to meet this 20% figure. I am suggesting using only 1 or 2 frames out of 20 brood box frames, because I don't want to "waste my queen's energy and time" producing drones rather than needed workers. Further, the female mite enters the bee larva cell on the 8th day since the egg was laid (one day prior to capping of the larval cell, and then the female mite lays one male mite egg on the 12th day, a female mite egg on the 13th day, and maybe a 2nd and even a 3rd female mite egg of subsequent days. The male mite mates and dies, but the female mite eggs feed on the bee pupa and emerge with the drone bee. The drone gestation period is a full 24 days, so it is suggested that you install a drone cell frame for 23 days, remove and freeze it, install a replacement frame of drone cells, and repeat. None of this procedure is "caste in stone" in directions. However, one MUST BE COGNIZANT of the overriding principle behind IPM, and that is do not make an attempt to kill (or remove) all of the Varroa or even 70-80% because that will over stress the bees; but only do that which is necessary to reduce the Varroa population to a point that the bees can function in a healthy environment and live with some minor percentage of Varroa in their midst at all times. I guess it is sort of like washing your hands with Ivory soap before you eat; which is NOT LIKE a surgeon scrubbing his hands before he operates. I am an OLD retired scientist, and I guess that "retired" entitles me to try 10% drone foundation in my brood chamber instead of 20% and I will find out whether that is enough or too little. I hope I have helped. BTW, isn't it about time for the heather nectar flow? I had hoped to make a 7th trip back to Scotland to bring back memories of my ancestry, but my age of 80 plus the devilish 5 strokes that I have suffered over the past 11 years will keep me in the states. I wanted to visit Glenlivet distillery on the River Spey again and visit the Isle of Skye and maybe pick up a tartan. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:33:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Milt Lathan Subject: Swarming Beehavior?? I drove out to visit a hive of Russo/Caucasian hybrids I started with a nuc this spring. A flow of Blackberries and clover is on so I figured I would check to see if they needed a second super (Rite-cell foundation). I was very surprised to see a swarm in progress cause I always figured you're pretty safe from swarms the first year. I approached the hive and it was covered with bees, most of them fanning or shuffling about aimlessly. The hive is on concrete blocks and bees were clustered below the opening and onto the ground. I assumed swarm because of the bees in the air though, the sound and the number of them convinced me I was actually watching my first swarm. Very few bees in the super yet the top of the two brood boxes looked crowded - so, I pulled the (plastic) excluder back and offset the super some to give a top entrance. I figured there was nothing I could do at this point to disrupt their plans, got my camera and prepared to make the best of things by getting a shot of the swarm as it departed. Half an hour passed and nothing. Still, lots of clustering outside but most of the bees in the air (this was not playflight!) had settled on the surrounding brush and on the hive. I dropped a small cluster from a stick on the ground into the super - closed up and left scratching my head. This was midday, just north of Seattle, temp about 74 degrees with Sun, I hear it rained hard yesterday. I assumed they wanted to swarm but something went awry. BUT - Is there anything other than heat that chases bees out of their hive? Does this sound familiar to anybody else? Is there something I can or should do at this point? Thanks for listening. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:52:05 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Does queen defecate in hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >...Read Maeterlink's "The Life of the Bee"...available on-line at > >http://www.eldritchpress.org/mm/b.html > > I must object to this advice. The question posed is a technical > matter of fact, and obviously difficult to answer. I love Maeterlinck, as > literature; but as technical info it is way out of date. When he wrote, > many of the main facts on the life of the bee had not been discovered, much > less a tricky item so difficult to observe as the queen's voiding. MM is > NOT an authority on this - he was just making it up! I appreciate both these responses, the first because I was unaware the book was online, the second because the writer recognises that this is not at all the simple question that it at first appears to be. Although I borrowed the question from the Belgian list, it brings to mind nagging questions: why are healthy, mated laying queens sometimes found outside the hive? Why do marked functional queens sometimes seem to disappear for a period of time, then reappear? If anyone has worked bees long enough, and with enough hives of bees, he or she will have experienced, and perhaps even investigated carefully, one or more of these anomalies. The simple fact is that -- although we can predict and observe bee behaviour fairly well on a gross or mass level, -- we don't, and perhaps cannot, know much about the subtle, infrequent and perhaps unique things that occur on an individual level amongst populations of bees. There are a number of reasons for this and I am not sure I have them all, or how they rank, but... * We are big and they are small. We are mammals and they are insects. * We don't have the time or patience to observe them constantly or a language adequate to analyse and record all their complex and changing activities. Our observations and distinctions are rather crude and artificial. Our observations are limited by time and space and money. Much of the work is to establish practical management schemes and is assumed to have no need to examine subtle small scale behaviours of individual bees. * We are distracted by previous assertions about bees, some of which is romantic and fictional, some of which is bad science, and some of which simply examined a small subset of honey bees in a specific situation and has since been generalized and assumed to apply far outside the boundaries of the original intent. We want to think we understand bees and therefore generalize and make assumptions beyond what is justified by our limited information. As we have learned recently here on BEE-L and on sci.agriculture.beekeeping, reports of widely varying and sometimes unexpected bee behaviours are being made by reasonably credible witnesses. These variations from the accepted generalizations seem to be linked to conditions, season, race, locale, environment and individual hive history. If we take these reports at face value, we can no longer justify assumptions that what one careful and trained observer will see monitoring one hive -- or even one apiary -- will necessarily be replicated elsewhere -- or even at a later time in the same apiary. Honey bee phenomena are turning out to be more complex, and the range wider, than most of us have previously assumed. That is not to say that we should give up, or that all observations to date are meaningless, but to say that -- at this point -- everything we think we know about bees and their associated organisms is in question and we must take a careful look at the easy assumptions that have been made in all observations to present. Particularly we must recognise that conflicting reports may point to significant potential discoveries, and not indicate that one person is right and another wrong. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:56:05 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George > but the researchers and scientists seem in agreement > on the 20% figure. This suggests using 4 frames of drone > foundation out of 20 brood frames to > meet this 20% figure. I am suggesting using only 1 or 2 >frames out of 20 brood box frames, > because I don't want to "waste my queen's energy and time" > producing drones rather than needed workers I have always been puzzled by this attitude... Most accept that "the bees know best" and that "bees do nothing invariably" but for 120 years beekeepers have been concerned that the bees raise, what beekeepers consider as "too many drones". Far from using more "in hive" resources than they deserve, and "wasting the queen's time" and egg laying capacity, their presence helps morale and allows the workers to go out foraging, as the drones conserve heat and help regulate brood temperature. (admitted, that this is more use in a cold wet climate like the UK) I have often run very high levels of drones in a few colonies (50%-60%) for increased local saturation. But even at this level some surplus honey is still produced. I suggest leaving the bees to raise as many drones they think is "right" and I would guess that large scale comparisons of colonies with "limited drones" and "free range" colonies would actually show higher annual honey yields in "bee limited drone" colonies. My reason for saying this is that (I believe) the egg laying rate is stepped up in the "happier" colonies and that even with the drones present there are more workers in such "happy" colonies. I have no proof or actual experimental data but my observations are based on more than twenty years experiance of colonies with high numbers of drones. As a rider to the above... I think that some research should be done into the pollen collection rates of colonies with and without drones as it seems to me that more pollen is brought in by those colonies that have more drones and that at least gives the potential for more workers. If drone brood trapping is your aim then it may be wise to temporarily limit the drone laying capacity to two frames (or even one) so that the varroa are "concentrated" in the drone brood that you are going to destroy. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:58:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HORSEFEATHERS! Why listen to these damned fairytales? Experienced beekeeper! Baloney! Just another loudmouth beeHAVER. This type of gibberish destroys good learning by beginners and novices; and hence I make no apologies for my rudeness. George Imirie Certified Master Beekeeper now in my 69th season of beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:11:42 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Cloake queen breeding system MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All The promised commentary on the Cloake system did not happen as things did not develop along the lines that I had planned. (the queen I thought was a "good" bet for breeding turned out to produce workers that were horrible when they were working "BioDiesel" Rape (Canola). We have not had much of the crude version of this crop for many years and so it's toxic effect had not been noticed in the previous generations. Slight progress has been made in my re-building program, I now have four colonies and we have a spell of good weather, so I may yet do a Cloake queen raising job but we are running out of time to build the resulting nucs into colonies for wintering. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:44:08 +0900 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: j h & e mcadam Subject: Dzierzon - historical information requested Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This year is the centenary of Australian federation (when the States of Australia joined to a commonwealth rather than individual colonies of England). As part of the Centennial Celebrations, the government of Primary Industries & Resources, South Australia, is hosting a "Centenary of Food and Fibre" at the South Australian State Agricultural Show, the Adelaide Royal Show, to be held from 31st August to 8th September. Kangaroo Island is participating as one of the regions in this display, and the Kangaroo Island Beekeepers Association are assembling an historical display, featuring hives used by the original settlers and beekeepers on the Island, contrasted with the current day beekeeping equipment. We have obtained a loan of a hive by courtesy of the S.A. Amateur Beekeepers Assoc. Inc. which has been in continuous use for more than 100 years. We are displaying this together with information on the family history. This hive has been identified as a Berlepsce - Dzierzon type, described as a Russian-type hive still used in Germany for queen breeding. The original beekeepers migrated from Prussia between 1844 - 1850. The Association also owns one of the original hives used in the early apiary site at Penneshaw on Kangaroo Island, with a plaque naming the builders who constructed this in the 1880s, stating that this is a "Dzierzon hive". We wish to include information in our display on the inventor of the hive type and his connection to beekeeping. The only reference I can find is in the ABC & XYZ to the "Dzierzon theory" which refers to a Rev. John Dzierzon in 1845. We would appreciate any information on the Rev. Dzierzon (assuming he is the hive inventor), including family background and the impact of the design on beekeeping practices of the day. An archive search did not turn up any hits for "Dzierzon". Can anybody contribute information? Betty McAdam HOG BAY APIARY Penneshaw, Kangaroo Island J.H. & E. McAdam Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vanessa de Behr Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some more oil on the II vs AI contest: I screened the Cab abstracts containing publications in the agricultural science research field, from 1973 until 2000. Here are the results: - Instrumental Insemination: 83 papers including 73 concerning bees and/or Apis spp., and 10 concerning horses or humans. - Artificial Insemination: 9483 papers including 83 concerning bees and/or Apis spp., and 9400 concerning about everything else. I get the impression that bee researchers are equally divided between II and AI, while the other scientists already choosed. By the way, we also use a metal/plastic instrument ("gun") for AI in cattle, horses, pigs and dogs. I do not know for the others, including human, but I guess... The gloved hand, used with cattle and horses, is usually only for "targetting" purpose. Well, they ain't no beetle... Back in the lurkers lounge, Vanessa Sunday's beehaver, weekly cattle vet rainy Belgium (until now, a meagre 40kg/90p from 3 Dadants) >What term is used for the artificial/instrumental insemination of, for example, dairy cows? The same usage should be followed with honey bees as is used in the rest of the agricultural world. >> Lets all see future books on beekeeping use the correct terms. For the archives: Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 years we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: morharn@groucho.ctel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Swarming behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding Milt Latham's question: I can't say what makes bees appear that they might swarm, but were a swarm imminent, one might try to stop it. Earlier this Spring a colony here with a most prolific queen had 25 (medium) frames of brood before we got weather suitable to split them. On the first good day I went with supplies and equipment to do just that. During preparations for the split, a tornado of bees formed in the air. I took a box and a couple of screened covers and quickly got all the frames with queen cells into the box. Apparently word got to the tornado that the queen they thought was in the hive wasn't, and the tornado coalesced into a mass on the hive. I went about my business servicing other colonies. When that was completed, and the tornado bees were back in their hive, I added frames with lots of bees to the box, carefully not letting any bees from the box go back to the hive, and not getting the queen, thus forming a viable split. This emergency split was set up in the breeding yard and now, a few weeks later, has a fine young laying queen. The old queen has made up the losses and looks ready to have some brood removed for addition to other brood to make a new colony. (I don't want to split again and lose production.) I'm not sure whether such stopping of a swarm in progress is a reliable procedure, but it did work this time, and I'm pleased to have the old queen on her old stand. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Dzierzon - historical information requested Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dzierzon was a German Clergyman who wrote a montly newsletter entitled "The Bee Friend From Schlesien". He has kept bees all of his life, as did his father. One of his main achievements was his encouraging readers to use a moveable type frame allowing them to leaf through hives and also making it possible to not destroy comb with each harvest. In 1861 he wrote "Rational BeeKeeping", a now famous work covering the whole of shared knowledge up to that point. He is considered in Europe as the father of rational beekeeping just as Langstroth is in America. Although Langstroth and Dzierzon worked independently, many of their discoveries were parallel. Dzierzon also understood bee-space but never calls it such in his book. He does say that the movable type frames must be 1 ½ inches on-center to get good comb build. In fact the importance in spacing of movable type frames was known much earlier. Miner’s patented “Equilateral Hive” utilized a 3/8-inch space between special guide plate openings. From this it is clear that Miner understood the importance of bee space quite early. It is known that Langstroth owned a copy of the 1849 first edition of Miner’s book, and was probably influenced by it but he states that it was years later that a friend showed him Dzierzon's book and they realized that they had both hit on the same ideas. Dzierzon's hive fell out of use since you had to manipule every frame to examine any one frame. He is also credited with finding the spermatheca and discovery that the queen stores sperm throughout her reproductive life. He was particulary interested in an idea he called "parthenogenesis" in which he viewed the future of the hive sacrificed. He said "Nature is not always able to proportion the means to the end .. If the goal is to preserve, certainly this method is flawed." Although parthenogenesis is now recognized, when he first suggested it nearly a century and a half century ago, it was not well received. Some of the critics were highly politically placed which in his day was far more important than our “pier review” in publishing is today. Dzierzon prevailed and nearly all the countries of central Europe honored him in for this finding. Dave ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:08:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Vanessa & All, Vanessa wrote: > Some more oil on the II vs AI contest: > I screened the Cab abstracts containing publications in the agricultural > science research field, from 1973 until 2000. Here are the results: > - Instrumental Insemination: 83 papers including > 73 concerning bees and/or Apis spp., and > 10 concerning horses or humans. > - Artificial Insemination: 9483 papers including > 83 concerning bees and/or Apis spp., and > 9400 concerning about everything else. Each has the right to call the process whatever they want and the term AI & II describe a similar procedure. I can see Vanessa has spent time researching her position so i will strengthen mine. Lloyd Watson in 1927 proved the procedure could be done in bees and gave us the term. I believe he had the right. Out of respect we as beekeepers should use the term . The procedure has gave us bee breeding possibilities we never new possible before Watson. When queens only mate 75 feet in the air the benefit to beekeeping is huge. All bee inseminators (bee inseminators???) I have talked to believe instrumental insemination to be correct. AI is slang for insemination of A.mellifera in my opinion. I will however know what you are talking about if you say AI at a bee meeting. example: bee hive or bee box. colony or brood nest The point I was making is at least in beekeeping books the term should be instrumental insemination. Bob's original post: > >> Lets all see future books on beekeeping use the correct terms. For the > archives: > Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be > inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 years > we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. on the video "the monk & the honey bee" there is a part which shows the instrumental insemination of a queen. Some of the best pictures I have seen of close up II. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:58:33 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: drone trapping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have often run very high levels of drones in a few colonies (50%-60%) for >increased local saturation. But even at this level some surplus honey is >still produced. > >I suggest leaving the bees to raise as many drones they think is "right" and >I would guess that large scale comparisons of colonies with "limited drones" >and "free range" colonies would actually show higher annual honey yields in >"bee limited drone" colonies. > >My reason for saying this is that (I believe) the egg laying rate is stepped >up in the "happier" colonies and that even with the drones present there are >more workers in such "happy" colonies. My own more limited experience conforms. I particularly support Dave's conclusion because, as I have warned since varroa arrived in my country last year, methods to control varroa are likely to be pushed, without sufficient justification, based on the sexist assumption that the males are useless & expendable. This is the actual attitude of the dominant political ideology over the past couple decades; if human males are so insulted, what would you expect for A. mell. males - and they are mere haploids to boot! The extreme lack of research on drones gives the lie (as does a great deal of other evidence) to the claim by WimminsLib ideology that science has been a domain of male dominance & exploitation. This is a crude big lie. Since Mme Curie it has not been difficult for women to get ahead in science, and it is false to claim that science has neglected females or female needs. For instance, there has been far more attention to diseases of the female genitalia than the male. A genuinely male-fixated science would have researched the male bee far more than has actually been done. Anyhow, whatever reasons may be inferred for our state of ignorance, it is a fact that we know exceedingly little about the roles of drones in the hive. It follows as G8MZY transmits: we should be very careful about sacrificing drones for any reason. I should at this point utter 10-somethingorother, but don't know many of those codes. R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:30:56 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > HORSEFEATHERS! ??? The idea in the original post seemed a bit simplistic, but when a hive goes into swarming mode, particularly due to lack of storage space, the bees do act differently. I am planning to consider this idea a bit more when I am out this week (swarming season has begun here) before I reject it. I know the phenomenon being reported; I just don't know its significance, if any. I know there is some visual cue that tips us old timers to suspect something, because when we open and 'read' a hive, we sometimes just _know_ there are cells. Usually we just know and don't think about what we saw that told us that -- unless we are trying to explain to a novice who is watching us examine a yard. We move smoothly and deliberately, often passing by hives that 'seem right', sometimes lifting and replacing lids, then suddenly zeroing in a hive that looks to him like all the others and finding something in progress. We then make instant changes and proceed, the entire intervention having taken only a moment. We cannot put what we do into words. There are signs we are reading, and many are very subtle. I hope others won't be discouraged from posting weird and wonderful ideas because some dismiss them out of hand. Some of us enjoy new ideas and we'll soon enough decide if they have merit. allen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:18:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, > I hope others won't be discouraged from posting weird and wonderful ideas > because some dismiss them out of hand. I will post a couple of topics which have produced heated debates at beekeeper meetings and always end without being settled. Maybe the list will try these. Does the drone ALWAYS die after mating? Bee books say he does but unproveable by researchers. It is true mating signs are seen at times. Why does the queen cell look like a first grader made it out of modeling clay? Darwin said the cell was so perfect. The queen cell is out of sync with the other cells,cappings etc.. The size of queen cells always vary compared to size differences in worker cells and drone cells. Perfect queens *can* come out of small cells as well as large although queen breeders believe the better queens come out of larger cells. If I think for awhile I can remember other subjects which envoked heated debate and a wide range of opinions. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. What's with those peanut indention's in queen cells when all other cells are smooth? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Warm some drones in your hand until they "pop", then they die. Press on a drone to watch what is happening. Very upsetting to the system. Dave >Does the drone ALWAYS die after mating? Bee books say he does but >unproveable by researchers. It is true mating signs are seen at times. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 20:29:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Harry Goudie Subject: Re: Dzierzon - historical information requested MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Johann Dzierzon was a Polish - German beekeeper who made a hive which opened at the back into which bars were suspended on which the bees built their comb. I would imagine this to be a rear opening top bar hive. I don't believe he understood the concept of bee space and the hive was difficult to operate. The hive was later improved by Baron von Berlepsch who constructed frames for the comb. Harry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:58:10 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Bees' demise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Arron Morris said: > A piece of info I have in my head which I cannot give a source and frankly > am not sure if it is true or not, but I'll spill it anyway, is, "the most common > cause of death in honeybees is starvation, due to the fact that they literally > fly their little wings off until they're (the wings) are worn and tattered to > the point that they will not support flight. Unable to fly anymore, the bees > fall to the ground and subsequently starve." I agree that tattered wings are a good way to identify experienced foragers with many sorties to their credit, but I have read that "wear and tear" on wings was not thought to be the critical factor in the lifespan of a bee. A. Neukirch is cited by Mark Winston in his book "The Biology of the Honeybee" as having written a paper entitled "Dependence of the life span of the honeybee upon flight performance and energy consumption" (1982). Mr. Winston summarizes Neukirch as follows: "...workers seem to die after flying a total of about 800 km, whether that distance was flown in 5 days or 30. This appears to be caused by the breakdown in the enzymatic mechanism which metabolize carbohydrates into glycogen. When the glycogen reserves which accumulate in the flight muscles of young workers are exhausted, the older foragers are unable to synthesize additional glycogen, and they die." So, it appears that, regardless of the amount of food available, bees reach a point where their muscles simply "wear out". The good news is that they do not starve to death. The bad news is that they die just the same. It seems reasonable to infer that tattered wings would force the bee to work its muscles harder to fly, but the point seems to be that a bee dies "a natural death" when it runs out of glycogen, even if it somehow avoids tattered wings. I slept through most of my organic chemistry (it was an 8am class, and I was working nights at the time to pay for tuition), but I wonder if there might be a dietary supplement that might help bees with this problem, and extend their "mileage", and hence, lifespan. If anyone could work out the chemistry, I've got a product name for the dietary supplement: "Vitamin Bee" jim farmageddon (where the bees are on the clovers and vetch this week) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:22:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: drone trapping In-Reply-To: <200106261535.f5QFZwP11219@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The fascination of female genitalia for male scientists not-withstanding, research on disease has focused primarily on males until very recently. Possibly because prison populations available for study were male dominated, definitely because it never occured to men that women would react differently or have different disease patterns. Even now, many drugs have never been properly researched on women (new studies have not been required on those already on the market) and new drugs are seldom tested on children, either because it is not cost effective or no need is seen. So dosages remain for the "typical" adult, which is vastly different for the average man and woman, our penchant for salad bars not-withstanding, and are usually halved or quartered for children, based upon a perceived weight difference. Women in science have made great strides in acheiving parity in the sciences (and now make more as free-lance consultants in the computer field than their male counterparts, although not as full-time employees). However, I don't think you would find a concensus amongst all women scientists that it has "not been difficult for women to get ahead" for the entire time period since Mme. Curie, do you? That all said, it has nothing to do with bees and neither did most of your comments. I doubt male bees are insulted by "pc" views, whatever the media has made those out to be this week, as they are insects. The human need to anthropomorphize those around us has no place in the search for truth in bee behavior. Unless it is your assertion that upon finding that male bees are mostly useless has led male researchers to quickly abandon any research into the subject, lest they have to publish such findings, which would reflect badly on males the world over? K -----Original Message----- From: Robert Mann Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 6:59 AM ...have warned since varroa arrived in my country last year, methods to control varroa are likely to be pushed, without sufficient justification, based on the sexist assumption that the males are useless & expendable. This is the actual attitude of the dominant political ideology over the past couple decades; if human males are so insulted, what would you expect for A. mell. males - and they are mere haploids to boot! The extreme lack of research on drones gives the lie (as does a great deal of other evidence) to the claim by WimminsLib ideology that science has been a domain of male dominance & exploitation. This is a crude big lie. Since Mme Curie it has not been difficult for women to get ahead in science, and it is false to claim that science has neglected females or female needs. For instance, there has been far more attention to diseases of the female genitalia than the male. A genuinely male-fixated science would have researched the male bee far more than has actually been done. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:22:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Updating the world's Bee Books In-Reply-To: <200106261519.f5QFJjP10282@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems you are arguing over a specific method (II) versus the concept in general (AI). All are AI, only those using instruments are II. A subset of the entire subject. And only really relevant to those PhD's that make their living from publishing such, other than to confuse the lay person into thinking they are talking about totally different techniques. When you can do AI without II on a bee, then the difference will become relevant in discussing the pro's and con's of each technique. In the meantime, perhaps those on different sides of the pond can simply agree to disagree. I think most of us know what you are talking about, regardless of which you use. (Except those in the computer field, which keep thinking the AI people have developed some form of artificially smart bee, or an artificial bee that is also smart??? The possibilities are mind-boggling. At least, we aren't pronouncing it "A1" as a national newscaster is calling the new Spielberg movie). K -----Original Message----- Bob wrote: The point I was making is at least in beekeeping books the term should be instrumental insemination. ... Bob's original post: > Lets all see future books on beekeeping use the correct terms. For the > archives: > Lloyd R. Watson in 1927 demonstrated that queen honey bees could be > inseminated and gave us the term "instrumental insemination". After 74 > years we should expect bee books to use the correct terms. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:40:18 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darn@FREENET.EDMONTON.AB.CA Subject: Re: Finding Queen Cells the easy way In-Reply-To: <200106261753.f5QHrAP17333@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 26 Jun 2001, Bob & Liz wrote: Why does the queen cell look like a first grader made it out of modeling clay? Darwin said the cell was so perfect. The queen cell is out of sync with the other cells, cappings etc.. The size of queen cells always vary compared to size differences in worker cells and drone cells. Hi Bob: The queen cell looks like a first grader made it out of modeling clay because it was made by the bee equivalent of a first grader. The worker cells are so uniform because they are made by thousands of bees jammed together, the crowding ensuring that the most space efficient cell will be made. The queen cell, on the other hand, is made in free space with no others around it, and the geometry is done on an ad hoc basis by bees which have never done it before. It is essentially round, and worker cells drawn one at a time in free space would also be round. It might be instructive to take a few dozen cylinders of modeling clay about an inch long and 1/4" diameter and squeeze them together. My bet is that they will distort into hexagons. Note: this is all conjecture on my part. Best regards Donald Aitken ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:18:48 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Adrian Wenner-Did the colonies survive? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On 2 June, Bill Truesdell wrote: >Several years ago Adrian wrote of some colonies he discovered that had >survived in the wild and possibly were varroa resistant. Just wonder >what happened to them? Actually, Paul Cronshaw has been maintaining such colonies for several years now. Our only problem has been starvation in the remote beeyard he has. Just yesterday, Paul and I caged queens from 10 such colonies and mailed them to James Tew in Ohio. He is working with Gard Otis of Guelph and researchers at Michigan State University to test these bees for tolerance of varroa. They will be one batch of three being so tested. The following is a portion of my message to Tew and Otis: ********** For some background on these bees, you can consult my letter on page 658 of the September, 1999 isssue of the AMERICAN BEE JOURNAL. Other information is as follows: 1) These queens come from colonies that have never been treated with any substance for any condition (e.g., Apistan, terramyosin, mineral oil, sulfa). 2) All colonies have come from walls of houses, tree cavities, as swarms that have emitted from colonies not near any colonies that have been treated, etc. None of the colonies, as far as we can tell, came from colonies managed by beekeepers. 3) Some of the colonies have survived for several years without such treatment after Paul hived them. Others have survived for years in house walls or trees for years without treatment before being extracted and put into standard hive bodies. 4) While extracting queens yesterday, I neither saw varroa mites nor bees with wrinkled wings. Of course, I was primarily seeking queens and not inspecting the colonies. 5) All colonies from which the queens were extracted were exceptionally gentle in nature. The veil I wore was not necessary during the period of time we searched. (I always wear a veil, though, so I can work uninterrupted in case of an attack event.) 6) The nearest report of AHB [Africanized Honey Bees] is approximately 30 miles away, past several mountain ridges. No stinging incidents have been reported here or in that area, for that matter. 7) You will find considerable variation in queen coloration. As my good friend Harry Laidlaw once told me, he could get any color of queen you wanted if you gave him a few generations to breed for such a color. 8) All colonies had plenty of eggs. Those 10 colonies will now supercede, since we are not introducing queens from elsewhere. *********** Now we have to wait to see what develops. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The history of science teaches us that each time we think * that we have it all figured out, nature has a radical surprise * in store for us that requires significant and sometimes drastic * changes in how we think the world works." * * Brian Greene (1999:373) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello K & All, > Unless it is your assertion that upon finding that male bees are > mostly useless has led male researchers to quickly abandon any research into the subject, lest they have to publish such findings, which would reflect > badly on males the world over? I liked the ring of this and can't wait to hear R's reply! James wrote: >"When the glycogen reserves which accumulate in the flight muscles are >exhausted, the older foragers are unable to synthesize additional glycogen >and they die". In my opinion we have got Mark Winston *again* trying to rewrite the beekeeping books without proof. There is as much evidence to support Aaron's theory as Mark's. Because the *wing* theory has stood the test of time lets see Mark's proof. Mark can't prove his theory because older foragers are going to have tattered wings AND low levels of glycogen. In the above statement Mark states his conclusions as fact. Dangerous ground even if you are Mark Winston. Stand your ground Aaron! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Have looked at Mark's THEORY before. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Bee cartoon on Flowgo .com In-Reply-To: <200105150315.f4F3FKJ25033@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii http://www.flowgo.com/flowgo2_view.cfm?page_id=10045 to reopen the Lance language theory discussion, but.... I saw this cartoon on flowgo.com- thought you might like to see this cartoon "Impression" of a bees dance language. Ellen in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 02:02:09 -0400 Reply-To: "jfischer@supercollider.com" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: love triumphs over fear? (Warning - 92% Satire) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Mares said: > A local newspaper reporter bent on a story about bees and beekeepers asked > me if I knew anyone who is "deathly afraid of bees, but still keeps them out > of love." > > I said I didn't know but would post to BEE-L. If you are (or know) such > a person, reply to me off-list and I'll sic the reporter on you (him/her). What a neat idea! Write "news articles" without the tedium of going out and looking for any actual news. Any "sane" person is, of course, afraid of bees. Therefore, the "story" must play up the "dangerous nature" of beekeeping. Well, if you think about it, beekeeping IS dangerous. The bees themselves are really the least dangerous aspect. There are lots of angles a reporter could write about in this vein.... ... the commercial beekeepers who are deathly afraid of bankruptcy, but continue to keep bees, in hope of having one good year per decade. ... the researchers at the bee labs who are deathly afraid that they will be budget-cut into unemployment, but continue to do useful work on the paltry $0.03 per US taxpayer per year they get for ALL insect-related work. ... the sellers of beekeeping equipment, who are deathly afraid that colony deaths will simply eliminate the concept of "industry growth", but continue to print up and mail catalogs (costing at least a buck each) out of sheer love of the business. ... the hobbyist beekeepers, who are deathly afraid that they will be buying and feeding new packages every year for the rest of their lives to replace dead-outs, but continue to keep bees. ... the package and queen breeders, who are deathly afraid that they will be faced with insane levels of demand for spring queens and packages again next year, and the no-win situation of being sure to have to say "sold out" to some number of hitherto loyal customers. ... the growers of some significant fraction of the food we eat, who are deathly afraid that there won't be enough pollinator hives to go around again next year. ... the migratory pollinators, who are afraid that they will be stopped and turned around at the California border again next year because of the California fear of "imported fire ants" (as opposed to the large, healthy, and widespread population of fire ants in California already). ... the honey importers, who are deathly afraid that tariffs on dumped honey from you-know-where and you-know-where-else is only the first step, and the next step will be actual point-of-entry testing on bulk honey to "European standards". ... the Honey Board, who are deathly afraid that they will continue to be treated like drones in September by the people they think they represent. ... the makers of corn syrup, who are deathly afraid that "Starlink" corn contamination will suddenly make their glop more expensive and harder to get than honey, thus driving the price of a box of "Honey Nut Cheerios" to $42.75 ... reporters like the one at hand, who are deathly afraid that they might have to do some actual work if they can't write fluff pieces about beekeepers who are afraid of bees, skydivers with acrophobia, coal miners with claustrophobia, Baptist preachers with aquaphobia, and so on. I'd suggest that the reporter stay in Vermont, and look for a Maple Syrup farmer who is diabetic. Now THAT's an interesting human-interest story for Vermont readers... :) jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 08:00:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: AI/II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank goodness Karen Oland has sorted out the semantics, of course II is simply a subset of AI and frankly, stating that it's II doesn't really add a lot - we all know that "gloved hands" are not used in bee breeding. If we want to add further information, we should perhaps follow the Human Medic. practice and use further definition (e.g. as in A.I.D.) to define where the drones came e.g. from the same colony or a donor colony. Alan Riach Bathgate,Scotland ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:55:07 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all I have had an off list reply from George, who, far from being rude, found the ideas stimulating. But I would pose a fresh question to those that are unhappy about the number of drones in their colonies. I would ask where and how they formed their opinion... There are hundreds of statements in beekeeping books that say drone comb should be reduced as only a few drones are "really" required. The objective stated is that the "excess" drones eat food and absorb colony resources that could be diverted to raising workers and thus more honey can be gathered. I find this short sighted, and have never seen anything that substantiates it. It is so commonly stated that most beekeepers believe it, but I ask on what basis, evidence or experiment was the statement first made? A bee colony is not likely to do something in it's self management that is harmful to its survival and prosperity. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:21:25 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bees' demise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I think there is a combination of reasons that limit the flying life of the worker bee. Tatty, un-aerodynamic wings is one of them. Failure to pick up enough fuel at the limit of outbound flight is another. > "...workers seem to die after flying a total of about 800 km, whether that > distance was flown in 5 days or 30. The 800 km mentioned may well be important and is also likely to vary from strain to strain. Perhaps this should be researched and added to the morphormetric and other data that we use to distinguish such strains. However in all these cases the "cause of death" is starvation on failure to return "on the last mission". Only very small numbers die within a hive. (hopefully Allen will be able to put some numbers on this later) Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:46:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: drone trapping Comments: To: dave.cushman@lineone.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah, my first foray into Bee-l snip -- There are hundreds of statements in beekeeping books that say drone comb should be reduced as only a few drones are "really" required. The objective stated is that the "excess" drones eat food and absorb colony resources that could be diverted to raising workers and thus more honey can be gathered. snip -- Is there any evidence that this does not simply make the colony spend more resources replacing the lost drones? If the colony "wants" a certain percentage drones, and a beekeeper keeps removing those made, will the colony not just keep making more, using resorces that could be put towards worker rearing or other duties? snip -- A bee colony is not likely to do something in it's self management that is harmful to its survival and prosperity. snip -- Humans, take note. Martin Damus Greely, Ontario ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:14:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Finding Queen cells the easy way Greetings all, Ok, to throw my two cents into the pot. Bob brought up the point about how poor looking a queen cell is, and Donald countered that it was because it was constructed in free space. If the queen cell is that poor looking due to free space, then why would natural comb, which is begun in free space be so perfect? Many times natural comb is started by a few bees in several locations, not by thousands of bees crowded into one area. Geometrically, it is one of the best ways to use space with a shape that is somewhat round. Square cells would be the best use, but imagine how funny looking square bees would be! Good luck all! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 07:03:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Do ALL drones die after mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There is no debate to be had here, the answer is definitely yes. The whole sexual aparatus of a drone in nicely contained, but once deployed (claspers to hold the queen, penis, sperm and mucous) there are no muscles for the drone to repackage the equipment. There ain't no way that rabit is goin' back in its hole. Drones are by design, throw away appliances. C'mon Bob, you must've popped a few drones in your days. Aaron Morris - thinking what a way to go! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:28:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: drone trapping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Quote by Mark Winston from "Biology of the Honey Bee" > >"When the glycogen reserves which accumulate in the flight muscles are > >exhausted, the older foragers are unable to synthesize additional glycogen > >and they die". I have had a couple of direct emails wanting me to explain further and in terms beekeepers can understand. In beekeepers terms carbohydrate reserves in the honey bee are present as glycogen. Carbohydrates in humans are our main source of fuel (unless you are on the *Adkins diet *). Carbohydrates (glycogen) are the fuel for honey bees. Mark's theory is when the bee runs out of glycogen the bee dies instead of not making it back to the hive because of tattered wings and according to James does not starve. Is not running out of glycogen starving? The best scientific explanation I found is by Chippendale (1978) "Carbohydrate reserves in the honey bee are present as glycogen (stored in tissue) and trehalose (in the hemolymph). These reserves can readily be transformed into glucose. Glycogen (a branched chain polysaccharide) is synthesized from glucose in a series of chemical reactions similar to those found in vertebrates"( reason I used humans for my beekeeper explanation). Now I will explain why I believe Mark's statement above to be inaccurate. >From page 181 of "The Hive and the Honey Bee (copy 1992) The glycogen stored in *flight muscle* supports flight for only 10-20 minutes(Wigglesworth 1984). AFTER this time , trehalose taken from the BLOOD is the primary fuel, ALONG WITH sugars from the honey stomach. Sooo the honey bee does not die as Mark's theory claims when the honey bee runs out of glycogen in the FLIGHT MUSCLES. I seriously doubt Mark Winston or Wigglesworth can pin point the exact cause of death ( out of glycogen or tattered wings). Mark will say trehalose and the sugars in the honey stomach are all carbohydrates and that is what he meant. I like the other Bee-L which posted think tattered wings play a roll. I also have a problem with Mark saying the bee CAN NOT synthesize additional glycogen and die. The above by Wigglesworth says the honey bee can and does automatically. I have also read in other books the bee can and does. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:38:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Do ALL drones die after mating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Aaron and all, I didn't say I didn't believe the drone didn't die only that the subject has been the cause of heated debates at bee meetings. Maybe as Karen said male beekeepers do not want to admit the truth about drones. Dies after mating. Wow! Several researchers have said the drone can live up to a hour before dying after mating. Where is a paramedic when you need one? Could be worse the female Black Widow spider eats her mate after breeding! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:04:19 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Bio Diesel Rape MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I have had a number of queries on this term that I used in a recent post. I have replied individually, the exact details may be specific to the UK, but I will share it with the list OSR (Oil Seed Rape, canola) has been grown for many years, originally as a tempering medium for steels, then cattle feed. Up until about twenty years ago the varieties grown contained toxins that made the bees "nasty" after they had been foraging on the crop for about 3 weeks. The crop only flowered for 4 weeks and so there was a 7-10 day period when the bees were unapproachable. The seed growers introduced "double low" varieties that contained less toxins and could be used for human consumption as an emulsion (margerine) for spreading on bread. The lower toxins had less effect on the behaviour of the bees, which is a good thing, because the growing of the crop became more common and different planting regimes brought about overlapping flowering of neighboring crops. Triple low varieties are now available with even lower toxins. This year in UK with the outbreak of "foot & mouth" and alterations in subsidies the cruder forms of OSR, known as "Bio Diesel Rape" are being grown again for use as tractor fuel. Consequently the bees and beekeepers are exposed to a phenomena that has not been present for about twenty years. I have no idea whether this will be a future trend or just a glitch due to "foot & mouth" . Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:46:44 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: AI/II MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Without putting much importance on it, I have been deliberately using AI and II in conversations with beekeepers and non beekeepers for the past fortnight or so. Out of about 25 uses of each term the only query I received was from a non beekeeper Who did not realise that bees could be inseminated by any non natural means. Thanks to Karen Oland for sorting it out. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 10:13:06 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: glycogen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob H has made a good start on clarifying the issue of 'running out of glycogen' as a putative cause of death. As a biochemist I may be able to clarify further. Glycogen is the typical storage carbohydrate in the animal kingdom, roughly as starch is in the plant kingdom. These are polymers of glucose, formed from glucose and typically (as in our liver) reversibly liberating glucose by depolymerisation at need. The notion that some animal species has degenerated to work in only one direction is not logically impossible, but is highly implausible. V B Wigglesworth was a - I would suggest the - the top scientist in insect physiology. When he says as Bob quotes, you can take it as reliable. If VBW said glycogen stored in *flight muscle* supports flight for only 10-20 minutes, you can infer that this animal indeed possesses the means to replenish that glycogen store several times daily (because we know bees typically fly many trips of 10-20min daily). It follows that running out of glycogen in the flight muscles cannot be the normal cause of death. If in response it be postulated that a bee can die from inability to fly owing to depletion of that glycogen store while far from the hive on a foray, I would then ask whether it can run on sugars from nectar gathered on that very foray. I would expect it to do so. Has this been examined? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 01:54:32 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carol Malcolm Subject: Re: Texas Boll Weevil Eradication Program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ...and I watched with concern the spray trucks roaming the streets of Houston to combat the mosquito outbreak following tropical storm Allison's visit to the south Texas coast. Any south Texas beekeepers out there that are dry? Had a chance to protect bees against the recent spraying? Carol Austin, TX, USA Carol K. Malcolm dewsnap@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 22:29:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Dead bee trap In-Reply-To: <200106250247.f5P2l2P13203@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received the following email from a friend in Europe. I am quoting it here because it seems to support something I have observed here before, and that it is this: It seems to me that when there is a heavy flow on, that *virtually all* the bees in the hive must be flying bees. I have concluded this because when we tip up boxes to take the honey by the abandonment method, *all* the bees in the supers leave and seem to find a hive without difficulty (so they know what it looks like and where it is). The supers are left empty, and no lost bees are seen. At other times of year, the bees do not leave supers tipped up, and if blown out appear lost and are not able to find a hive unless they are able to find fanning bees marking an entrance. Here is what he says: "I will just answer to your post regarding the life time of a bee in summer time. There was a critical paper to that question in the German Bienenjournal February 2001 (page 4 to6) by Dr. Liebig. The title (translated) How many bees are rearly in a beehive? Thei counted the brood and they determined how many bees were in the hive at intervals of 3 weeks and plotted these data. The outcame was that in summer time there is a statistical life span of a bee of 21 days!!!! Thus all the stories in the bee books about a bee doing discrete duties during her life before becomming a foranger bee seem to be not correct. They found strongest hives had no more than 40.000 bees. So in summer time you should find 1500 to 2000 dead bees a day per normal bee hive". I am still actually wanting to know how many bees die *inside* the beehive *as opposed to* those that die in the field or elsewhere outside, since, if I use a dead bee trap to examine the bees that are being removed dead from the hive (to see if the queen has been killed), I need to know what capacity it must have. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ --- I planted some bird seed. A bird came up. Now I don't know what to feed it. -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: African bee briefing (2) Comments: To: sergeant@MYIAFRICA.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry, >Idea number two is that capensis workers' ability to lay female eggs is< > somehow triggered by a viral infection.< Are you talking about the bacterium *Wolbachia* here as the possible viral infection? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:46:58 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Texas Boll Weevil Eradication Program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks. In the mid-eastern US coast, beekeepers weren't so lucky during the "Nile mosquito" erradication campaign. We lost all but three of our research honey bees. Good luck to those beekeepers whose bees survive in areas where toxic chemicals are being constantly used without due regard for honey bees. Best wishes. Dr. Pedro Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:08:24 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: glycogen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all and thanks to Robert for his enlightenment. > If in response it be postulated that a bee can die from inability > to fly owing to depletion of that glycogen store while far from the hive on > a foray, I would then ask whether it can run on sugars from nectar gathered > on that very foray. I would expect it to do so. Has this been examined? I am not sure how critically this has been looked into, but I am fairly sure that if a bee is unable to find enough nectar at the gathering point then it is unable to convert any reserves in its body quickly enough to fly home and will thus perish, or at least be delayed and vulnerable whilst conversion takes place. I have always assumed (dangerous to assume things) that a bee leaving for a known destination only carries enough fuel for the outgoing trip. Whether this fuel is stored in flight muscle or heamolymph or as honey in the stomach, is for others to decide. I have also assumed that any glucose in the nectar is more or less instantly available as flight fuel but the other sugars require some sort of processing which takes time. My wife and I are both diabetic and as a result I have in my refrigerator a syringe that contains Glucogon (Trade name Glucogen) Is this the same as Glycogen or a different compound? Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:06:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "BOGANSKY,RONALD J." Subject: Swarm Movement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, This is the way I understand how a swarm travels. When the swarm leaves the colony the first stop is basically chosen by the queen in that wherever she lands the swarm gathers. Later the scouts communicate the new location and the swarm heads for the new home. If along the way the queen needs to stop and rest the swarm will gather around her. I believe this is why you hear of swarms landing in strange locations. Yesterday I was called and told that one of my colonies swarmed. As soon as I got the message I had a pretty good idea what colony it was. It was a split I made two months ago in a single hive body, and had failed to return to add additional equipment. I had requeened the colony the split came from but wanted to keep the old queen because basically she survived the winter which a number of my colonies did not. The swarm was in a tree about 100 feet from the parent colony, 5 feet off the ground. I shook it into a hive body with drawn comb. (These are my bees so I am not concerned with disease and putting them on foundation.) While I was in the yard I thought I would look at the other colonies. A few minutes passed and I heard the familiar buzz and out they came. Apparently mamma didn't like the new house her benefactor provided for them. I thought, oh well, I will wait for them to land and try again. (I only ever had this happen one other time.) They were not moving away but instead they headed right for the parent colony. I thought, great, they will wait and do this all over again tomorrow. Not wanting to go through this again, I put the extra hive body on the parent colony, thinking I would let them gather inside and then split them hoping to control the swarm. All the bees were gathering on the front of the parent colony and the extra hive body. I spotted the queen but was too slow and she ducked under some of her daughters. She was on the outside of the extra hive body so I move it back to its bottom board and let them go in. I also grabbed as many of the other bees that were still outside and added them. I gave them a frame of brood and closed it up. There are a number of scenarios that could explain this behavior, chance being the top of the list. But I have some questions. If the queen left the hive body and returned to the parent colony how did she know where it was? Remember this is a split and this "marked" queen theoretically never was out side of the hive until they swarmed. Do queens leave the colony once they are mated and laying? I do not think so. Did she just follow the other bees in the swarm or was it just chance that they landed where they did? This really has me thinking! I once heard Steve Tabor say that we really don't understand a lot about the swarming nature of bees. As usual, at least in my case, Steve is right. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:00:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Glycogen & Flight Times Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Robert Mann enlightened us: CLIP > V B Wigglesworth was a - I would suggest the - the top >scientist in insect physiology. When he says as Bob quotes, you can take >it as reliable. If VBW said glycogen stored in *flight muscle* supports >flight for only 10-20 minutes, you can infer that this animal indeed >possesses the means to replenish that glycogen store several times daily >(because we know bees typically fly many trips of 10-20min daily). CLIP And then asked: > If in response it be postulated that a bee can die from inability >to fly owing to depletion of that glycogen store while far from the hive on >a foray, I would then ask whether it can run on sugars from nectar gathered >on that very foray. I would expect it to do so. Has this been examined? The following paper has information that may apply in part: Southwick,E.E. and S.L. Buchmann. 1995. Effects of horizon landmarks on homing success in honey bees. THE AMERICAN NATURALIST. 146:748-764 The experimenters released marked foragers at different distances and measured the fraction of returnees as a function of distance, as well as the time it took those bees to return to their colonies. In their Figure 3, the time for 90% return from 2.75km away was about 1400 minutes. Under Wigglesworth's statement, those bees would have had to use nectar for their return flights. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The history of science teaches us that each time we think * that we have it all figured out, nature has a radical surprise * in store for us that requires significant and sometimes drastic * changes in how we think the world works." * * Brian Greene (1999:373) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Odd Behavior In-Reply-To: <200106281533.f5SFX9P29157@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Three days ago, the day after a large storm (over 1 inch rain in an hour), all of my bees were flying around in circles in front of the hives (except one that was from a small swarm earlier in the year). A large number were coming in and out, as if there were a honey flow on. There was no fighting on any of the hive stands. Since I hadn't been in them in about 1-1/2 weeks, I checked the top box or on all and all the way into the brood box on the busiest one. No fighting or robbing behavior that I could see. The one that had the biggest mob of bees in front is up to their seventh super this year, all started from foundation and they have about 1/2 drawn out the last one (this is much better than the other hives in the same location, started at the same time). The next day (it rained again), all was back to about normal, with the usual occasional collisions coming and going and very little circling. Has anyone else seen such flight behavior right after a storm? Or for some other known reason, other than robbing? Could it have been from some type of poisoning or just unusual heavy flow? I didn't see any dead bees around the front of the hives or on the bottom board or inside. Just lots of bees doing the same sorts of things they are usually doing. I do occasionally notice a solitary bumblebee trying to get into the hives, but didn't see any on the day they were so active, nor any sign of skunks trying to get in (we have skunks here, but they have never bothered our bees). The hives are all sound, with ventilation holes at the top, but only one main entrance. I had tried imrie shims before for summer entrances, but just get a mess of comb each time. The strongest hive is pretty full (brood, pollen and honey) in the bee's area (1 deep, 1 medium), but I didn't see any swarm cells, just one small queen cup mid way up a frame, which I ignored as I've been advised that they get built sometimes and those in the middle of a frame, with no egg/larva, just get built sometimes and are not a problem (this is only my second year with bees, although I used to go "help" my grandfather with them years ago, in this same location). Karen Oland PS. This is the same day that a kamikaze bee (not necessarily a honey bee, we have lots of bees here of different types) attacked me (well away from the hives, not in any flight path), stinging my index finger after repeatedly banging into my face. Unlike other stings, this one kept gradually swelling up until my entire hand was involved. When the swelling went up the wrist (the next morning), I went to a clinic - the Dr thought it was perhaps an infection from the sting, so went on steroids/antibiotics. Swelling started to subside a little last night and is down about 1/2 today (most pain gone, hurrah, but skin now starting to peel). Could their strange behavior be related?