From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:54 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C5424AE11 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO3h010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO3h010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0107D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 177803 Lines: 3828 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:10:54 +1200 Reply-To: bobhog@pin.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pav Organization: BombusMaximus Subject: Wax Contamination Comments: To: IrishBeekeepers List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All I am hearing claims here that Bayvarol causes less residues in beeswax than Apistan, and further, that it is okay for use during the honey flow. Can anyone tell me whether there truly ARE less residues with Bayvarol, given that both are synthetic pyrethroids, and if so, what makes the difference? -Pav, sceptical... ________________________________________________ (\ Pav Bobhog@pin.co.nz {|||8- Ahaura, New Zealand (/ http://geocities.com/bombusmaximus/picpointer.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 18:07:21 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Converting from deep to medium brood chambers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a person with a bad back this may not be the best idea. You still have to lift stacked boxes and then probably twist the spine while doing so. Why not think laterally and go for a long deep hive? UK beekeeper Robin Dartington has been using these for over 25 years and has written a couple of books on the subject. Using his design the maximum weight needing to be lifted during manipulations is only 16 pounds. It the beekeeper is really weak or wheelchair bound the hive could be set up with a 30 degree tilt to one side for easier reach. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:10:10 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bees definately don't like being brushed as I'm sure everyone knows. Hold a frame over the open hive with a frame holder in your left hand and strike an end bar sharply a couple of times with the heel of your right hand and most of the bees will fall off. At least this leaves fewer bees to brush. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:19:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Ventilation Auger Hole MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii George Imirie stated that one reason he didn't like auger holes was that it increased the liklihood of stung fingers. I've never understood the pictures I've seen of these holes bored in the finger lift recess. I bore mine between the first and second frames, just below the rebbet. I've not encountered any stinging problems and one hole in the top box precludes all mold over the winter. I prefer to seal the top otherwise in order to place insulation above the inner cover. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 17:03:17 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Entrance Width MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joseph, I invite your attention to , "PSBA Forum", "Reducing Entrances in Summer". Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:32:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Converting from deep to medium brood chambers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Converting to mediums from deeps is really quite simple, if you are going to do it next year. Buy your medium bodies now and foundation, After thorough painting, put JUST ONE on top of your 2 deeps now and FEED 1:1 sugar syrup to FORCE them to draw the foundation and maybe you will get some fall flow of goldenrod or something (I don't know your location). If you can get the frames drawn and filled with honey or sugar syrup, leave the mediums on for the winter in the TOP position. During the winter the bees will eat their way UP from the bottom deep into the 2nd deep and medium. When the bottom deep is EMPTY (probably in January, remove it.) In March add the 2nd medium of foundation and again, CONTINUOUS 1:1 sugar syrup. When about 6-7 of these 10 frames in the 2nd medium are drawn and filled with something (sugar syrup, pollen, or brood), add the 3rd medium of foundation. When 6-7 of those frames are drawn and filled with something, add supers. Remove that 2nd deep whenever it becomes empty of brood. Depending on your location, you should have no deeps and at least 3 full mediums by May or surely June. If you are going to use queen excluders, which I strongly endorse, do not add the excluder or any honey supers without asking me for advice; because those new supers will have to be "baited" or bees will not pass through the excluder. Hope I have helped. George Imirie 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:53:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: 4.9 comb sizes - new question Comments: To: dave.cushman@lineone.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello all, I have been thinking about the 4.9 mm comb question. I haven't come up with an answer, but I have come up with another question. I've studied morphological variation in honey bees, and have noted the obvious trend that bigger bees have bigger wings. What I was wondering is if the proportions are the same - are the bees bigger in all directions, and does the change in size mean a change in wing structure to accomodate the extra weight? Bigger bees like Asian giant honey bees have bigger wings, but the vein structure is elongated - stretched out - and the ratio of width to breadth is reduced. In my study of Apis cerana (the common Asian cavity-nesting honey bee - their equivalent to Europe's Apis mellifera) I looked at shape variation in their wings and legs. I could remove the effect of overall size from my analysis, so that I wasn't calling bees different simply because of their size, but I couldn't remove the effect size may have had on proportional differences. Bac! k to the 4.9 question: when a beekeeper elects to force bees onto a different size comb than that which is 'natural' to them, do the bees simply make different sized, but proportionally the same brood, or does the forcing change proportions, wing structure, etc.? I was wondering 1) if anyone knows of such a project, and 2) if any of you would be willing to sacrifice a couple dozen bees to 'science' so that I could study this question? I would be looking for bees that are not forced to a comb size, that are forced to larger and / or smaller combs, and whose ancestry is known (not only purebreds, but wild crosses are welcome, so long as they are known to be wild crosses). The information I would need for a submission is date of collecting, location of colony (including latitude and longitude and approximate elevation), race of bee, size of comb, and whether it was a naturally built comb or a comb built on a particular size foundation. Ten bees per hive from a few hives wou! ld be sufficient for the study. If you are interested email me and I how to collect it. It would take no more than a half hour of your time and a stamp. Thanks, Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:42:55 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I agree with Dan's method to remove bees off a frame. I would like to add that besides doing what he recommends, I carry a bee brush in a pail of water and that I use it to remove those bees that persist on the frame. It does not irritate nor harm the bees. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:45:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Bees definately don't like being brushed as I'm sure everyone knows. Well, bees don't care to be brushed with any "man made" brush I have ever used. However, I pull a wad of long grass and use a few stems to wind around the wad to make a crude wisk broom. Using this wisk, I can brush and fan and really, REALLY brush the bees off combs with no objections whatsoever. Try it, you'll be amazed how easily and determinedly (I'm avoiding "forcefully") the bees can be moved. You can really brush the bees with vigor using this natural (and FREE) green grass brush and they don't complain at all. Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to brush a bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:25:28 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Bayvarol Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@egroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Pav writes >I am hearing claims here that Bayvarol causes less residues in beeswax than Apistan, >and further, that it is okay for use during the honey flow. The answer here is definitely 'No' - Bayvarol strips must not be placed in the hive while there are supers on the hive. Sincerely Tom Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:21:45 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Brushing bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Is it not essential to brush bees when they are on a comb with queen cell(s) which you wish to keep and which would otherwise be damaged by striking the comb? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 08:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Converting from deep to medium brood chambers In-Reply-To: <200107211621.f6LGLE806425@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Remove queen excluder and leave a couple mediums full of honey on top over > the winter Or add your medium boxes with foundation and feed in the fall > till full and drawn out. You will find the bees have moved into > the mediums by spring. Get out early and remove your deep boxes from > below before the bees start using them. Thanks Bob - I knew there had to be a simpler way than what I had come up with. It's too late for me to do it this year (I haven't started using mediums yet so I have no drawn comb in that size frame, much less filled with honey) but I can move them down to a single deep chamber in the spring, and none at all the following spring, using the method you describe above. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:47:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bonbee@AOL.COM Subject: Bees in a house wall outside of London MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone help? the bees are in the outside wall of the house. we have been remodeling the house for two years. we need to get them out so we can blow in insulation. if you put your ear up to the wall in my oldest daughter's room, you can hear them in the wall. there are thousands of them it seems. last year we tried to spray around whee they were going in but they are back. i have called everywhere honey farms, OSU, you name it and we can't seem to get any help. if there is anything you can do please let me know. you can call me if you would like (740)-857-2127 Jo Lynne Hodges Thank You, Outside of London HTheMojo@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Converting from deep to medium brood chambers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote an article about getting bees to vacate deeps and move into mediums in response to an earlier query. A few words of caution about George's advice: Please be aware of George's location (Maryland) and climatic conditions (winters relatively mild compared to the REAL white north and probably with a lessening (in severity) effect of the ocean). His advice to remove an empty deep in January and feeding to have foundation drawn in March is a recipe for disaster where I keep bees (upstate NY). I don't recall who originally asked the question (how to get bees out of the deeps and into the mediums) and I don't think a location for the query was ever identified (a common omission), but the answer is very much determined by where one is located. In upsates NY, the easiest way to get the bees out of the deeps and into the mediums is to simply take the empty deep from the bottom of the stack when the bees are occupying only the top deep at the end of the winter (early/mid March). A good ROT date is the ides of March. Move the top deep (which will be light at that time of year) to the bottom, add a medium., done. You can play around with the configuration once or twice during spring build up by switching deep and medium a few times, but make sure the deep ends on the bottom when the hive gets into "production mode". Again at this time of year the boxes won't be too heavy. When the hive is in production mode, be sure the deep is on the bottom, the medium on top and leave it that way. I run a lot of hives as a deep and a medium, or a deep and two mediums. If determined to get rid of the remaining deep hive body, do so the following year when it's empty. Some problems with running all mediums: 1) If you sell nucs, the majority of customers will want their nucs on deep frames. 2) Mite strips only come in deep sizes. Otherwise, standardizing on all mediums is a good strategy. It's something I've considered, but I have too much deep equipment to make the transition. As my years advance and my back is "less zealous" I have been migrating towards a deep/medium configuration. Aaron Morris - thinking there are 2 kinds of beekeepers: Beekeepers with bad backs and beekeepers who are going to get bad backs! Converting to mediums from deeps is really quite simple, if you are going to do it next year. Buy your medium bodies now and foundation, After thorough painting, put JUST ONE on top of your 2 deeps now and FEED 1:1 sugar syrup to FORCE them to draw the foundation and maybe you will get some fall flow of goldenrod or something (I don't know your location). If you can get the frames drawn and filled with honey or sugar syrup, leave the mediums on for the winter in the TOP position. During the winter the bees will eat their way UP from the bottom deep into the 2nd deep and medium. When the bottom deep is EMPTY (probably in January, remove it.) In March add the 2nd medium of foundation and again, CONTINUOUS 1:1 sugar syrup. When about 6-7 of these 10 frames in the 2nd medium are drawn and filled with something (sugar syrup, pollen, or brood), add the 3rd medium of foundation. When 6-7 of those frames are drawn and filled with something, add supers. Remove that 2nd deep whenever it becomes empty of brood. Depending on your location, you should have no deeps and at least 3 full mediums by May or surely June. If you are going to use queen excluders, which I strongly endorse, do not add the excluder or any honey supers without asking me for advice; because those new supers will have to be "baited" or bees will not pass through the excluder. Hope I have helped. George Imirie 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 04:23:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Bee Stings in Ankles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Over the years, I've had several employees experience joint pain and problems walking after being stung in the ankles or feet. I can't recall having any such problem myself, and I usually wear sandals while working bees, so I do occasionally get stung. Does anyone know what it is about ankles that seems to make them especially sensitive, or does anyone have any insight into this? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ The site is working again after several days of net problems at my ISP ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 04:25:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've noticed reference to proposed genetic modifications in honeybees in several recent posts, but have not read or heard anything else about the topic. Is something being proposed? If so, by whom, and to what ends? allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:07:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: African bee briefing (3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Last week Mike Allsopp posted “South Africa issues” on BEE-L stating he thought he “had best comment, and in some cases set the record straight.” Perhaps he could kindly continue in this vein in respect of the following. 1. South Africa faces more bee pests/diseases/problems than any other country in the world? The exception would be pure capensis colonies in native capensis territory, a relatively small area of the country. 2. The country’s single biggest current problem is the ever-increasing wholesale - if not industrial - destruction of scutellata colonies by capensis laying workers? 3. The said capensis problem is the single biggest problem in South African beekeeping history? 4. Capensis worker laying behaviour - however delayed - has become the dominant characteristic of wild and managed scutellata colonies? 5. It is unlikely that any pure scutellata can be found anywhere in South Africa today? It is generally believed that all “wild” scutellata are hybridised to varying degrees with capensis? Separately, the latter phenomenon comprises the capensis “timebomb” within all scutellata colonies? 6. South Africa is the only country in the world - where varroa is found - where varroa is not the main problem? 7. South Africa’s varroa is the most virulent strain, the so-called verroa destructor “Russian” type? 8. The mechanism by which capensis workers clone themselves has yet to be explained? 9. No non-private sector research conducted on solving the so-called capensis problem has ever yielded any practical solutions whatsoever? 10. Mr Allsopp and his colleagues at the PPRI, ARC (Plant Protection Research Institute, Agricultural Research Council) live and work in Stellenbosch, South Africa, deep in native capensis territory. This, along with other factors, would imply that any further attempts by the PPRI to find a solution to the capensis problem have been totally abandoned? This one really needs a unequivocal answer? 11. Further, by implication, all other research bodies in South Africa have abandoned attempts to solve the capensis problem? Mr Allsopp has stated, separately, that “PPRI has not been part of the government for a long time.” Does this have any bearing on the PPRI’s constituent donors’ expectations of the PPRI’s bee research focus areas? 12. In order to secure on-going funding from donors ambivalent to the value of bees in South Africa, bodies such as the PPRI have a vested interest in the capensis problem continuing, not in it being solved? This is a tough one all right. 13. If it is true that all non-private sector attempts to solve the capensis problem have been abandoned, would bodies such as PPRI suppress private sector attempts? Would PPRI, for example, oppose an ApiCrown (i.e., pure private sector) attempt to import pure scutellata from Kenya? Scutellata for research purposes to test domestic scuts for capensis and varroa resistance? Instrumentally inseminated queens accompanied by an international health certificate issued by ICIPE (www.icipe.org)? Eggs in comb? Bee semen? Would government itself suppress such bona fide attempts? 14. As to cell size, Mr Allsopp quoted figures for scuts that are likely dated; viz., pre-capensis (1990) and pre-varroa (1995)? This is not to imply that either would initiate a change in cell size. But just how valid are his supplied figures at 4.85-4.9mm? I live and work deep in scutellata country and I am not a scientist. I have examined brood nests of millions of wild scutellata trapped near Piet Retief in the past four months or so. I stand by my finding that scutellata are retooling, and downsizing cell size. I stand by my statement on BEE-L on 12 July 2001, viz.: “we are very worried that the dual influence of varroa and capensis could lead to a deep depletion in wild swarms” in traditional scutellata countryside. That there are still swarms in relative abundance in 2001 must constitute some proof that scutellata are truly tough. But even scutellata have a breaking point. Is it time for South African research entities to make serious inroads into the damage man has occasioned scutellata in one of its home countries? Thanking Mr Allsopp in advance, Barry Sergeant ApiCrown Honeybee Queen Breeders Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:06:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: Bee Stings in Ankles In-Reply-To: <200107231332.f6NDWl800173@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:23 AM 7/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >Over the years, I've had several employees experience joint pain and problems >walking after being stung in the ankles or feet. I can't recall having >any such >problem myself, and I usually wear sandals while working bees, so I do >occasionally get stung. > >Does anyone know what it is about ankles that seems to make them especially >sensitive, or does anyone have any insight into this? > >allen I think it depends on the individual. I personally experience very little pain and almost no swelling/itching when stung in the ankles. I tend to get stung most on the ankles because of the sweat and bees getting caught between the tongue of the shoe or cuffs of my pants or suit. On most of my body the reaction is pretty minor (less of a bother than a mosquito bite, but my hands and face (cheeks, eyes, but not forhead, scalp, neck, etc) swell up like balloons and ache for two days. Consequently, I always wear gloves and veil, but often wear shorts and a t-shirt when doing minor tasks. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:53:58 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Stings in Ankles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find most ankle stings to occur in early spring/late winter manipulations when the bees are "crawly" and I have not been stung for several months. My shoes don't fit so well afterwards and I suppose my tolerance for venom declines over winter. Remember to blouse your trousers into your socks and boots. But don't worry, if you forget the bees will remind you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:34:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Wax Contamination Comments: To: bobhog@pin.co.nz In-Reply-To: <200107230131.f6N1Vr814256@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200107230131.f6N1Vr814256@listserv.albany.edu>, Pav writes >Hi All > >I am hearing claims here that Bayvarol causes less residues in beeswax than >Apistan, >and further, that it is okay for use during the honey flow. > >Can anyone tell me whether there truly ARE less residues with Bayvarol, given >that both >are synthetic pyrethroids, and if so, what makes the difference? > >-Pav, sceptical... There is a great deal less (in terms of milligrams per treatment) of the active pyrethroid in Bayvarol than in Apistan. This is primarily, as I understand it, because the Flumethrin in Bayvarol is considerably more active than the fluvalinate in Apistan. It may follow from this that permissible limits are lower for flumethrin than for fluvalinate? Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 09:05:42 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stephen Augustine Subject: Re: Brushing bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A large feather seems to work very well for me and unlike using a brush the bees do not seem to become upset. Stephen > >Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to brush a bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:41:43 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Bayvarol In-Reply-To: <200107231317.f6NDHE829521@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200107231317.f6NDHE829521@listserv.albany.edu>, Computer Software Solutions Ltd writes >The answer here is definitely 'No' - Bayvarol strips must not be placed in >the hive while there are supers on the hive. > >Sincerely >Tom Barrett The written instructions included with the Bayvarol strips sold in the UK read: '...Bayvarol can be used at any time of the year for diagnosis or in severe infestations where there is a threat to the survival of the colony....Protection of consumers: No withdrawal period for honey is required regardless of when in the year Bayvarol is used. Other bee produce should not be taken for human consumption until the Spring following treatment.' I queried this advice with Bayer on their stand st the BBKA Convention at Stoneleigh this year. They confirmed that they are absolutely confident, based on their testsing, that there is no residue problem associated with honey. There may be a problem with other products (notably wax) but their testing of that has not been adequate to dismiss or confirm a problem, hence the caution for 'other bee products'. While Tom's advice is cautious, and I try to follow it myself, it is not consistent with the manufacturer's Instructions in the UK. There has been some debate in our Association about the best time to treat for varroa with Bayvarol in the autumn. Beekeepers taking hives to the heather find that treatment after the return from the heather can require hives to be opened in late October/November to remove the strips, with considerable disruption unless you are lucky enough to have a mild day at the right time. One member advocates earlier treatment (starting in July) to ensure that the 'winter bees' are produced relatively free of varroa. Such timing means that Bayvarol will be in the hives during the heather honey flow. Consequently under the Bayer instructions sale of cut comb honey should not be permitted. Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:47:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Brushing bees In-Reply-To: <200107231324.f6NDOQ829641@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200107231324.f6NDOQ829641@listserv.albany.edu>, Aaron Morris writes >> Bees definately don't like being brushed as I'm sure everyone knows. > >Well, bees don't care to be brushed with any "man made" brush I have ever >used. > >Aaron Morris - thinking there's more than one way to brush a bee! Why not use the traditional tool- a goose wing. These have very soft feathers along the wing trailing edge and the bees do not appear to mind being brushed with one, nor to become entangled in the wing feathers. In the UK Goose wings are readily obtained around Christmas time from butchers who deal in game. Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:00:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Mike Rowbottom asks, "Why not use the traditional tool- a goose wing?". Simple. Geese aren't plentiful in my bee yards whereas grass is everywhere, immediately available, easy to pick, simple to construct into my make shift brush and can be discarded when I'm done. > In the UK Goose wings are readily obtained around Christmas time from > butchers who deal in game. In upstate NY, they'd be lost by New Years, perhaps sooner. Aaron Morris - not thinking "Keep off the Grass!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Vivian Donahue Subject: George Imirie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In spite of living in the Washington Metro area, I have never had the pleasure of meeting George Imirie. However, on the Fox news sat night, there he was, making a case for our bees and demonstrating bees for the local reporter. Thank you, George, for working on public awareness. You have contributed much to our hobby. Thank goodness I taped it. ;-) As a small note (she says with a BIG smile), sitting in the background among all the medium depth supers was one deep brood chamber..... ;-) Vivian Arlington, Va a VERY small hobbiest..... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:07:11 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Brushing bees In-Reply-To: <200107230141.f6N1f9814534@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to pull honey from 100 hives using nothing more than a drafting brush, and I know my detailed comments on this topic are in the archives, but to recap the essential points: * Work when the field bees are not home * Work to one side and make sure the bees you brush off are not returning to the frames. They are not too happy to be brushed twice. Use an empty box to accept the bee-free frames. * Shake bees off in advance where possible * Make sure the brush (or whatever) is clean and soft at all times * Brush *upwards*, not downwards where possible allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 11:23:30 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Bee Brushes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: >From my experience, bee brushes are common among hobbiest, seldom seen in commercial bee operations. Commercial folks remove bees with fume boards, blowers, or by shaking - seldom have time to ease bees off frames with a brush. Personally, I find them useful - but mainly because in our research, we often need to see the comb. Also, we often shake, then use the brush to remove the last hangers on. However, not all brushes are equal. I don't understand why bee equipment suppliers sell natural bristle, black brushes. The bees will immediately attack the brush and get entangled in the bristles. My recommendation, throw the black brushes away. The synthetic bristles in lighter colors work fine. The common yellow plastic fiber brushes sold in the U.S. are a bit too stiff for my liking, but they work, and the bees don't attack the brush. I keep an eye out in the housewares sections for brushes that work. Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk, Ph.D. Director, DOE/EPSCoR & Montana Organization for Research in Energy The University of Montana-Missoula Missoula, MT 59812-1002 E-Mail: jjbmail@selway.umt.edu Tel: 406-243-5648 Fax: 406-243-4184 http://www.umt.edu/biology/more http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:04:17 -0500 Reply-To: Susan Adams Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Susan Adams Subject: Re: Mail Order Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a employee of the Postal Service and a beekeeper, I can inform you that some changes have been made with the shipping of bees. The queens will still be shipped by air, but colonies will be restricted to ground shipping. With the joint venture with FedX, The Postal Service will use FedX aircraft to move express and priority mail and FedX gets to set their boxes in lobbies of certain post offices around the country. Of course, Great sums of money exchanged hands. I hope this clears up any questions about shipping of bees. Always request that your local post office gives you a call when your bees arrive at your destination. Randy Adams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Automatic digest processor" To: "Recipients of BEE-L digests" Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:00 PM Subject: BEE-L Digest - 19 Jul 2001 to 20 Jul 2001 (#2001-197) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: George Imirie on TV MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vivian Donahue wrote: >...George Imirie...was, making a case for our bees and demonstrating > bees for the local reporter. Thank you, George, for working on > public awareness. You have contributed much to our hobby *************** I agree with the sentiments expressed by Vivian Donahue. Am I the ONLY ONE who wants to know HOW George Imirie SPOKE in UPPERCASE letters when he was ON TV? Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:42:43 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Bee Stings in Ankles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, Referring to the discomfort experienced after being stung about the ankles; I rate this as "bad" as being stung on the scalp or any other place on the body where there is not the allowance/give for any swelling that takes place - the increase in volume coupled with the lack of give causes increased discomfort. These locations are always situated where the bone mass is close to the surface. Being stung on the leg/forearm, as long as there is no excessive reaction is easier to support due to the swelling and resulting tightening of flesh being accommodated - more give in the skin tissue. Also, there may be the fact that being stung on the ankle is relatively rare when compared with say, on the wrist - one gets used to that. I hate being stung on the sole of the foot. Peter P.S. How many beekeepers sneeze after having been stung on the nose? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Bee Stings in Ankles In-Reply-To: <200107231455.f6NEtr803344@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Friends, Let me preface my comment about ankle pain from bee stings with this. I keep bees primarily for apitherapy. I have received many thousands of bee stings in my lifetime. What I have found is the immunity for the effects of bee stings starts to wane at about three weeks in most folks. A person will develop an immunity to the swelling and itching effects of bee stings after about 6 to 8 weeks of receiving stings on a weekly basis. Those of us who regularly get stung, will get a slight reaction to stings if we have not had any in for three weeks or longer. If a long enough period goes by, a person may have a reaction similar to a person who never gets stung. This having been said, If a person is not immune to stings, I would have to assume the ankle problems would be greater because of the body weight on them, as opposed to other areas of the body. The sting will cause local swelling which is probably compounded by the continued use of the affected tissue in the ankle. Our ankles are asked to do a lot, just supporting our bodies. Irritate them with bee stings, and it sounds like a good formula for pain to me. I don't like to get stung in the ankles, but it happens. I can't ever remember having any pain associated with it, however. I believe it is because I have been stung so many times that I don't have any reaction to the stings. I am not a doctor or a health care professional. These are just personal observations and may not apply to everyone. Just thinkin' a little bit, but I could be wrong. I dunno. Bob Bassett -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:54 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: Bee Stings in Ankles I find most ankle stings to occur in early spring/late winter manipulations when the bees are "crawly" and I have not been stung for several months. My shoes don't fit so well afterwards and I suppose my tolerance for venom declines over winter. Remember to blouse your trousers into your socks and boots. But don't worry, if you forget the bees will remind you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:29:26 +1200 Reply-To: bobhog@pin.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pav Organization: BombusMaximus Subject: 4.9 foundation Comments: To: BioBee Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All Just when you thought this one had gone away... I just got my hands on the 'Progress Report' (how it differs from an 'abstract' i don't know) for the research into small cell size underway here in NZ. No results yet mind, but this sets out the methodology. The research is apparently running behind schedule, as by the time the combs were drawn out, it was into winter weather here, and the bees weren't too interested in raising much brood. I hear that the drawn combs are waiting in the freezer for our spring to roll around... While i would have used a different methodology, these folk have great credentials, so i'll just sit quiet (you learn a thing or 2 as the years go by). There is also a part B planned should cell size prove effective against mites, to ensure there are no downsides to production, from using smaller bees. I expect 'normal' sized cells refers to comb built on typical 5.4 NZ foundation. I am however puzzled over someone's rounding-off efforts... FWIW. -Pav CAN THE REDUCTION OF CELL SIZE REDUCE THE IMPACT OF VARROA? M.A. Taylor and R.M Goodwin April, 2001 Sustainable Farming Quarterly Progress Report HortResearch Client Report No: 2001/291 Part A: Effect of cell size on the reproductive success of Varroa Destructor Introduction Varroa Destructor is a phoretic external parasite of worker and drone honey bees (Apis mellifera). Due to the recent introduction of this unwanted mite into New Zealand, international research is being reviewed to identify appropriate methods of mite control for New Zealand (Goodwin and Van Eaton, 2001). However, New Zealand's climatic conditions, flora and fauna, and unique beekeeping practices mean that much of the overseas experience is not directly transferable. Currently, miticides are used to control varroa world-wide. However, due to the development of resistance problems, coupled with the organic image of New Zealand honeys, these control methods may have a detrimental effect on both New Zealand's beekeeping practices and trade on the international market. International research suggests that cell size may reduce the reproductive rate of varroa (Message and Goncalves, 1995). If this is the case hive damage, resulting from varoosis, may be delayed, and the need for miticide use, reduced. The aim for this project is to determine whether a reduction in honey bee comb cell size will reduce the reproductive success of Varroa destuctor in New Zealand. Methods This trial is being conducted in an apiary run by HortResearch at the Ruakura Campus, East Street, Hamilton. The site was originally to be managed in Auckland but due to the recent finding of varroa within 2km of Hortresearch's Hamilton apiary the trial has been relocated for ease of use. Five different cell sizes, 4.7, 4.8, 5.0, 5.1 and 5.4mm have been selected for analysis. The 5.0 and 5.4mm foundation were sourced from New Zealand Beeswax Ltd, South Canterbury New Zealand, in late January 2001. The 4.7 foundation was sourced from South Africa, and the 4.8 and 4.9mm foundations were from the United States of America. All three international shipments were sent directly to Schering-Plough in Upper Hutt for irradiation treatment, and then forwarded to HortResearch, Ruakura Research Centre, in late February 2001. The ordered cell size varied slightly from the actual size (Table 1). Throughout this study the cell sizes will be referred to as the actual cell size (1 decimal place). Six sheets of each foundation were embedded in frames and placed in hives with large bee populations, for the cell walls to be drawn out. Twenty frames of normal foundation were also drawn out at the same time. The late arrival of foundation has resulted in autumn weather patterns effecting the colonies so that their populations have started to decline and the bees have focussed on collecting winter stores rather than the establishment of new storage areas. This means a delay in the time that the bees are taking to draw out the foundation and has delayed milestone completion. In an attempt to schedule each colony was fed sugar syrup every two days, to aid the foundation-drawing process, and then the undrawn foundation was shifted to where where a strong flow of rata nectar has lengthened the foraging season. Table 1. Actual versus ordered cell size of foundation Ordered cell size (mm) 4.8 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.4 Actual cell size (mm) 4.71 4.8 5.08 5.11 5.4 Country of Origin SA USA USA NZ NZ Ten nucleus colonies have been established using sister queens and varroa infested bees from Auckland. Until the five different sized foundations are fully drawn out and all mosiac frames constructed, the bees will be managed with two frames of normal sized brood cells and a feeder. As each of the full-depth fames, of the different cell sizes, 4.7, 4.8, 5.0, 5.1 and 5.4mm has been drawn out they have been removed from the colonies, frozen and then cool stored. Expected Progress Once all framesare drawn they will be cut into 5cm x 8cm sections and randomly inserted in the centre of the newly drawn, normal cell-size frames. These five sections of cell sizes, plus a control (normal cell size) section, will replace the normal cells in a 2x3 grid. Two of these mosiac frames, and a frame of bare foundation, will replace the brood frames in each of the 10 varroa infested nuc colonies. This limits the queen's egg laying space to the constructed frames. Once she starts to lay, 100 eggs from each of the six cell size sections will be marked using map pins. When the pupae in the six sections of cells are 19-20 days old the repructive sucess of varroa will be analysed. The brood comb will be removed and frozen to kill the mites. The sections will then be thawed, and the cells will be uncapped individually to identify the presence and number of adult females, deutomnymphs, and other offsring of Varroa, as outlined in Message and Goncalves (1995). This reproductive data will be collected and statistically analysed during the next quarter and used to identify whether any of the cell sizes reduce the reproductive rate of Varroa, and if so, which has the greatest impact. This cell size that produces the greatest impact (Part B) will then be assessed further to determine whether smaller sized cells result in smaller bees and lower production. References Goodwin, M and C. Van Eaton. 2001 Control of varroa - A guide for New Zealand Beekeepers. External report by HortResearch to Ministry of Agriculture and Forestry. Message, D and L.S. Goncalves. 1995. Effect of the size of worker brood cells of Africanised honey bees on infestation and reproduction of the ectoparasitic mite Varroa jacobsoni Oud. Apidologie 26:381-386 www.hortresearch.co.nz Head Office The Horticulture & Food Research Institute of NZ Ltd Batchelor Research Centre Private Bag 11030 Palmerston North Telephone: +64-6-356 8080 Facsimile: +64-6-354 0075 Ruakura Research Centre The Horticulture & Research Institute of NZ Ltd Private Bag 3123 Hamilton Telephone: +64-7-858 4728 Facsimile: +64-7-858 4704 ________________________________________________ (\ Pav Bobhog@pin.co.nz {|||8- Ahaura, New Zealand (/ http://geocities.com/bombusmaximus/picpointer.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:37:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Bee Stings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, "The members of the craft of beekeeping will always be held in check by the pesky sting of the honey bee."( Richard Taylor) Myself and other beekeepers I have talked to get no reaction from a sting at all but a small hole where the stinger went in but many I have talked to swell from a mosquito bite. We have got three part time employees which do work for us on the farm. Not beekeeping work. Joel was mowing next to the four way queen nucs this morning and received a sting. He showed me after he finnished his work and only the hole where the stinger went in. No swelling. He hadn't been stung all year. Always amazed at some people only get a tiny hole and some the whole arm swells up. My last sting of 2000 was from a load of bees taken to Texas. Almost exactly two months later I started feeding bees in Missouri and receiving stings. The imunity was till working. No swelling. In my opinion there is still quite a bit to be learned about bee sting reactions. Many doctors have told me most serious reactions are caused by the proteins in the sting and not the venom itself. All I know is the sting I got a couple hours ago felt like the first sting I ever received. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Dan Rather said tonight on the news the first case of West Nile Virus has been found in Florida. I expect a step up in spraying. Beekeepers were never paid for hives killed by spraying around Miami for sleeping sickness. Most spraying now is mostly around the big cities. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:22:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Bees in a house wall outside of London MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funnel them out with a screen wire funnel. Place a hive just below the funnel with a frame of brood with eggs in it. Raise the rear of the top to provide an entrance for the returning field bees. It will take about 6 weeks to remove all the bees, sometimes less. Make sure there is not an opening to return to the house or this will not work. Caulk around the screen next to the house. Work hard. Lionel Evans Athens, Alabama ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 13:22:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: 4.9 foundation In-Reply-To: <200107171901.f6HJ1G817060@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Old dark combs in those days were valued by beekeepers because it was said > bees did better. Dee used old dark combs to size down at first with > success. Proving old dark combs DO produce smaller bees. Many *old timers* > think our researchers wanting us to recycle comb every five years to be a > waste of time and money and the bees simply to better on old comb. The other arguments for melting old comb are: * to avoid build-up of chemicals from the environment. This is an interesting matter on which I have not heard definitive information. Are there chemicals in the combs after a few years, and is new comb better in this regard? * To eliminate disease reservoirs in hives. Recently, due to an SAFB problem , a neighbouring beekeeper had reason to have his brood combs irradiated. From the reports I have heard (strictly anecdotal), brood patterns on those combs were amazingly even. In the experiments Adony and I did installing packages on new comb, I understand there was lower incidence of chalkbrood in hives with all new comb, but that effect went away as the season progressed, possibly due to the fact that the hives had some older comb added. Not sure. I tend to think that the answer is to breed bees that can withstand disease, rather than trying to prevent all exposure to the agents. > I am only saying what their opinion was (and in many cases still is). > One day in the early 1980's I came to the conclusion the worlds foundation > was the wrong size (5.4mm). Whether that is wrong or not, it is indisputably larger than most bees like to build on their own. There was a question here recently about the relative merits of various plastic foundations. I got some from the shed and measured. Pierco gives 40 cells at 8-1/4" and Permadent at 8-9/16". Consulting the chart at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Misc/CellCount.htm, I get 5.2mm for Pierco and a bit over 5.4mm for Permadent. I consider the former to be ideal, and the latter to be overly large, but I have no idea what is right or wrong in foundation since foundation is entirely unnatural to the bees. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 22:56:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron says that New York beekeepers would surely lose a Christmas gift goose feather by New Years. That "cold weather" that Aaron talks about sure does a lot of things that Maryland weather does not seem to do, or is it that the New York beekeepers are different from Maryland beekeepers? Many years ago, I noticed the success that Ann Harman (then living in Maryland) had moving bees with a goose feather, and the bees didn't seem to mind it a bit. Seeing a good thing, I have always kept some goose feathers around my tool box for moving bees. At the risk of prolonging this multitude of comments about brushing bees, let me say, BRUSHING BEES MAKES BEES MAD AND THEY STING. I move bees quite easily by just touching them with my bare fingers, and they gently scurry away, but NEVER WITH GLOVES! Bare fingers are not normal in a bee hive, so bees move away from bare fingers. Before someone says "Is George crazy?", why don't you try it and find out for yourself. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 00:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Re: Ankle Stings Greetings all, Allen was wondering why ankle stings seemed to be worse than other areas of the body. I hate to get stung on the ankles, because more often than not, my ankle swells, develops a large circular red ring similar to an infection, aches/hurts for several days, and usually contains a fever in the affected area. I asked a Dr. about this, fearing I was becoming sensitive to stings, and his reply was because of poorer circulation in the foot/ankle. When we are stung elsewhere in the body, the toxins become distributed in the body. With the foot's poorer circulation, it just stays there and slowly dissipates. I'm not a doctor, but I play one in the beeyard, so probably best thing to do would be to elevate feet above the heart for a few minutes to let the blood flow out of the legs. Wouldn't hurt to do this a few times the day of the sting. Sounds like a good excuse to lay down on the job! Good luck all! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 23:37:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: Bees in a house wall outside of London Comments: To: Bonbee@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jo Lynne, You seem to be searching for something that probably can't be found. Unfortunately there's no simple solution to getting rid of bees within a wall once they're established. Hives take up space. Even if you had the bees killed you'd still have a wall full of wax and honey. Most established hives within walls cover 4-8 feet (by ~3" wide). If you want to replace the beehive with insulation, the proper solution is to pay a beekeeper to open up the hive (from inside or outside) to remove the bees and cut out the wax and honey. You could have the hive exterminated and on a hot day the hive might melt to create the proper cavity for blown-in insulation. However, I would guess the resulting mess would be something you would despise - along with the stench of rotting brood (baby bees). How would you find a beekeeper to take out the hive? Contact your local bee club or ask a few questions of a beekeeper from a nearby farmer's market. Be warned that very few beekeepers will take on the messy job. I do hive removals all the time here but am reluctant to take apart the side of a house. Old houses with hollow walls are tough to dismantle without making a mess inside & out. I wonder what the R-value is of a beehive? They do generate a bit of heat during winter. Perhaps the best advice is to do nothing with that section and insulate the surrounding wall. Good luck. Matthew Westall // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA Bonbee@AOL.COM wrote: > the bees are in the outside wall of the house. we have been remodeling the > house for two years. we need to get them out so we can blow in insulation. if ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 03:53:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: 4.9 foundation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen & All, > The other arguments for melting old comb are: Allen makes excellent points on the pro side of the issue. As a raiser of solitary bees I was tought by the U.S.D.A. not to reuse nesting sites after one year to prevent parasites. Not what most of the sites on the internet say but what U.S.D.A. research has shown will work to prevent parasite loss in solitary bees. I would say wax could harbor envirmental chemicals. What effect they would have on bees still remains to be proven. My argument for NOT melting old comb is the amount of honey involved in drawing new comb. The wholesale price of wax in the U.S. is now around $1.25 a pound U.S.. If you price the honey at the lowest wholesale price today from the bee journals you can easily see drawing new comb hurts the bottom line. Do the math. Add the labor to process the old comb and do the math. Most bee supply houses dock dark wax by .25 to .50 per pound from the above price. Do the math. As Richard Taylor says you only need a knife to process comb honey but when you look at the amount of extracted honey you could have produced is the production of comb honey the best return? Do the math. Myself and a fellow beekeeper had a discussion today over if it is better to use a uncapper which saves less wax rather than a uncapper which produces double the wax. You can quess which side of the discussion I was on. Do the math. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Drutchas Subject: collecting wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In the last bee journal Wyatt Mangum mentions that Apis florea will = dismantal an abandoned comb and reuse it while our European bees will = not. Earlier this summer I watched bees tearing apart some wax on last = years comb honey boxes and packing it on thier legs. To tell you the = truth I cant recall seeing this behavior before. I have seen bees tear = down foundation in the hive if given too early. I did have some russian = stock in this yard . Could it be russian's collect wax and euro's don't? = Or is it that Im not too observant and bees collect wax in certain = situations? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:11:24 -0700 Reply-To: morharn@groucho.ctel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Bee stings in ankles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've not found ankle stings to be more painful than those to other body parts, but to be surprisingly more common. The bees seem very restrained abour stinging. It is not uncommon for them to go up a pantleg and to cluster on the hem of my shorts. They seem to know where they are, and rarely sting there. However, whenever they go down into my shoes, stinging is usual. Perhaps they dislike the smell, or don't recognize it. One more mystery of bees. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 07:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: magnetic north Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >What direction does a swarm of bees, in an empty box, build the comb? North, >East, West, or South? Hi Lionel and All: A very elegant paper was published on this that showed the swarm will build the comb in the same plane with relation to magnetic north as the combs in the parent hive from which the swarm issued. If an electromagnetic coil was wrapped around the empty box to shift apparent magnetic north then the combs would be build shifted the same amount (showing that the bees were using electromagnetic sensory ability). The memory of the original plane lasts about nine days in the swarm. The paper is: Orientation of Comb Building by Honeybees; David DeJong; Journal of Comparative Physiology; 1982; 147: 495-501 The references in that paper refer to several papers on the optimum arrangement of combs relative to the entrance direction and says there is not agreement, but that at least two papers, one studying skeps, and one studying tree nests show no preferred direction relative to the nest entrance or to magnetic north. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 06:27:09 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: New Education Program From the National Honey Board MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I came across the following link to an article about new NHB honey promotion materials: FWIW http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010724/latufns1.html allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:34:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: collecting wax In-Reply-To: <200107241117.f6OBH4812156@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > Could it be russian's collect wax and euro's don't? = >Or is it that Im not too observant and bees collect wax in certain = >situations? Bees do not collect wax. They manufacture it. Tiny scales are produced between abdominal segments I believe (not positive about the location without looking it up) and manipulated to the mouthparts. As to recycling of wax, I believe they do a certain amount of this. However I have never seen them going outside the hive to get any burr comb which may be discarded. Have you ever noticed the brownish mark where bees are gaining entrance for robbing. This is composed mostly of wax particles. The robber bees first action on reaching the sunlight seems to be to groom their faces of wax particles gotten where they were chewing into comb. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 08:31:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: 4.9 foundation Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Pav - > Ten nucleus colonies have been established using sister queens and varroa > infested bees from Auckland. Until the five different sized foundations are > fully drawn out and all mosiac frames constructed, the bees will be managed > with two frames of normal sized brood cells and a feeder. > > As each of the full-depth fames, of the different cell sizes, 4.7, 4.8, 5.0, > 5.1 and 5.4mm has been drawn out they have been removed from the colonies, > frozen and then cool stored. The question that comes to mind is, what size are they referring to when they say "normal sized brood cells"? 5.4mm? If so, I find it hard to believe that they are getting true cell sizes on the foundation from these bees. Getting 5.4 size bees to draw 4.7 - 5.1 cells is a BIG size change. They don't talk of regression in steps at all. Everyone I know that has tried this says it can't be done in one step. Are they actually measuring the cells on the drawn foundation to verify that they are true? Seems like an obvious question but sometimes the obvious gets overlooked. > Expected Progress > > Once all framesare drawn they will be cut into 5cm x 8cm sections and randomly > inserted in the centre of the newly drawn, normal cell-size frames. These > five sections of cell sizes, plus a control (normal cell size) section, will > replace the normal cells in a 2x3 grid. Two of these mosiac frames, and a > frame of bare foundation, will replace the brood frames in each of the 10 > varroa infested nuc colonies. This limits the queen's egg laying > space to the constructed frames. Once she starts to lay, 100 eggs from each > of the six cell size sections will be marked using map pins. I'm sorry but this sounds woefully inadequate. Not sure you could come up with a smaller test than this. Of course they are only concerned about initial mite count, not concerning themselves with the effect that the bee would have on the numbers. What happens when the mite levels get high? This seems a more important question. Maybe I'm off base here but something doesn't add we're looking at a study without meat to it. My POV. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tony Scott Subject: wax of Bejaia (Bougie) Dear Sirs, I would be very grateful for any information concerning the beekeeping of Bejaia in Algeria, which used to be an important center of wax production during the middle-ages (the French name "bougie" derives from Bejaia). What little I am from combing the web is that is made by the Kabyle people within their mountains and then brought to the port of Bejaia to be sold to Europe. Bejaia reached a peak of activity during the reign of the Almoravides and the Almohads, in particular during the period of Leonardo de Pisa (better known as the mathematician Fibonacci) who was part of a Pisan merchant colony stationed in Bejaia, around 1200 AD. That culture of Bejaia has been largely destroyed. I am trying to find out any information - any "secrets" about how the Kabyles raised their bees. My email address is: ScotusTS@netscape.net Thanks in advance best wishes Tony Scott University of Paderborn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 09:15:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Brushing bees In-Reply-To: <200107240300.f6O30B827245@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George, I can't let this go by. Brushing bees with the wrong type of brush and technique makes them mad. With the right technique and brush, I can move lots of bees with no stinging. Next time I see you in MD, I'll be glad to demonstrate. As per bare fingers - I don't wear gloves. Not sure if the bees don't sting because bare fingers are not natural in the hive OR because my sense of touch is much better without gloves. If I crowd or squeeze a bee with my bare hands, I know it. Can't do that with gloves on. Finally, I don't recommend working bees without gloves to beginners. I've seen a toppled hive or dropped frame result in numerous stings, with the beekeeper getting sick, and often reacting badly when next stung. So, I recommend gloves until you are comfortable and reasonably skillful. Cheers Jerry >At the risk of prolonging this multitude of comments about brushing bees, let >me say, BRUSHING BEES MAKES BEES MAD AND THEY STING. I move bees quite >easily by just touching them with my bare fingers, and they gently scurry >away, but NEVER WITH GLOVES! Bare fingers are not normal in a bee hive, so >bees move away from bare fingers. > >Before someone says "Is George crazy?", why don't you try it and find out for >yourself. > >George Imirie > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 11:36:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > With the right technique and brush, I can move lots of bees with no stinging. This bee brushing thing has gotten bigger than life! I'm not sure if I started it, but the point I was trying to make was that using a brush concocted with grass, (which is plentiful in every bee yard I have ever seen) you can brush bees with vigor without upsetting bees. I'm aware that you can upset them with dark bristled brushes for a fee, and you can do better with light bristles at a bargain, and you can not upset them at all with a traditional feather plucked from the magic goose on Christmas Day, but in the meantime, you can pull some grass, fashion a quick brush and just about conduct Beethoven's 5th on the bees' heads and they don't seem to mind at all! I'm left wondering, with the ready availability of something free, which works so well and can be discarded when through (a new one will be at your feet the next time you need it), why all the discussions of alternatives that don't work as well or cost money or need to be kept in a tool box? Aaron Morris - thinking try it, you'll like it! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:19:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Brushing bees In-Reply-To: <200107241754.f6OHsF826675@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron wrote: >This bee brushing thing has gotten bigger than life! > >I'm left wondering, with the ready availability of something free why all the discussions of alternatives that don't work >as well or >cost money or need to be kept in a tool box? Hey Aaron, whatever works. Personally, I need the broad surface of a long brush to wipe a frame or herd a swarm. Also, in your wet part of the world, long, green grass is plentiful. I have sites on lava outcrops with hardly any vegetation nearby, and whatever grass is available is dry and brittle most of the year. So I'll continue to use a brush. Actually, halitosis works even better than grass. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 14:25:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Brushing bees In-Reply-To: <200107241754.f6OHsF826675@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Possibly because there is not grass in every bee yard or at all times of the year? Or that if it were as easy as just using a handful of grass, what mystery would there be for the uninitiated? -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Morris .. with the ready availability of something free, which works so well and can be discarded when through (a new one will be at your feet the next time you need it), why all the discussions of alternatives that don't work as well or cost money or need to be kept in a tool box? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:19:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thanks re Shallow brood chambers, and question re rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, I have not replied to your letter concerning "rotation", which most refer to as "reversing". I hate to "hog an act", so I thought I should let others voice an opinion. Reversing is not only widely used, but is well accepted as one of the more positive controls of swarming. I refer to you to page 618 of the 1992 Extensively Revised Edition of the Hive and Honey Bee. If you are going to change from using two deep to 3 medium bodies for brood chambers as I previously suggested, reversing is easier with 3 bodies than with 2. Just wait until all brood is gone from the bottom body, and place that body above the other two. In the spring, bees like to go UP, and hate going DOWN. By reversing, you are just providing empty laying space for the queen ABOVE her existing location. What state are you in? Weather is SO important, and good advice is weather dependent. George Imirie in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: MFCo Subject: Wax removal In-Reply-To: <200107171930.f6HJUZ818428@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, What is the best way to remove wax (such as cement, for instance). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Phil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 20:13:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, George Imirie, I tried moving bees with my finger today to get them off the combs I was uncapping with an electric knife. Moving the bees with my finger worked fine. Not snipping or flicking them, I crowded them sideways with a finger until they flew off the comb. They do not seem to mind being pushed. Tim - thinking Aaron might try putting some fingers in his toolbox so they'll be handy after he's mowed the bee yard. -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 22:56:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Wax removal In-Reply-To: <200107250033.f6P0XW813974@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here are a couple that have worked for me after candlemaking accidents. Hot air stripping gun- Scrape off surface wax with a plastic or metal spatula (Depending on the surface.) then warm the wax with hot air from the heat gun. Wipe up with paper towel as soon as it starts to get shiny/melt. Use the lowest heat that will work to prevent damage to the surface being cleaned. This works well on enameled appliances and on linoleum. Hot Vegetable oil. Hot vegetable oil will melt and mix with the wax, diluting it and softening it, so that degreasing detergents or other cleaners can lift the stuff out. Should be hot enough to melt the wax, but not hot enough to "Fry" whatever the wax is stuck to. This is a great way to get stubborn build up off of expensive tin candle molds. Pouring hot oil thru them gets them clean and a final cleaning with dish detergent leaves them like new. Also great for cleaning up pots and pans used for melting wax- pour in a little vegetable oil, heat. swirl around, and wipe out with paper towel. Repeat, and the pan is usually as good as new. (Propolis comes off with a little alcohol, but yellow stains from the propolis NEVER seem to come out of white enamel. If someone has found a way, please tell me!) Electric Iron and Paper towel or Newspaper. Heat up an old electric Iron (Don't use the same one you use for clothing unless you are prepared to do a lot of cleaning of the iron- try a garage sale or thrift shop iron that you use only for this.) Place a few layers of paper towel on top of the wax, and apply the warm iron to the waxy area. As the paper towels become saturated with wax, remove them and apply clean towels to absorb more wax without spreading it. If you are dewaxing fabric, put paper towel under the fabric too, to absorb from below. Newpaper works too, if the stained surface is dark colored, but watch out- the newsprint may transfer. Dry Cleaning. Dry cleaning takes wax out of clothing. However, Make your dry cleaner aware of the wax, so they can handle it properly. They will probably want to run the item in the last load of the day, just before the dry cleaning fluid is exhausted and changed out for fresh. There are solvents that will dissolve or break up wax to some degree, but getting out most of the wax by scraping or melting helps these substances to work. Try Simple green or other concentrated degreasers or Orange based cleansers straight and undiluted. Beware of using solvents that are flammable- it takes time for most solvents to work on beeswax, and you may end up with an explosive/ toxic cloud of vapour before you realize what is happening! BE CAREFUL! I'd try every other possible option before even thinking about trying solvents- they are just too dangerous. Ellen in Michigan MFCo wrote: Hi, What is the best way to remove wax (such as cement, for instance). Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Phil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:07:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wax removal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/01 8:33:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mfc@KCTC.NET writes: > What is the best way to remove wax (such as cement, for instance). Steam and a high alkaline degreaser. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:36:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Wax removal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" WD-40 (silicon spray) will disolve beeswax. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 07:59:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Brushing bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Also, in your wet part of the world, long, green grass is plentiful. > I have sites on lava outcrops with hardly any vegetation nearby... Jerry got me! I spend a lot of time on this list reminding folks that what works in one part of the world may not work in another! I guess I should read what I write a bit closer. Apologies to the water impared. > Actually, halitosis works even better than grass. Don't I know it! See: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0106B&L=bee-l&P=R3424 Cheers! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 08:32:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles wettergreen Subject: pheromones affect humans? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've wanted to ask this question, but didn't want to appear foolish. Well, guess you all can have a good laugh. :?>) Do queen bee pheromones affect humans? I ask this because when I am working my two (new) hives, I seem to be much calmer that I would expect myself to be, given that I am disassembling the home to thousands of stinging insects while dressed usually in shorts and a t-shirt. And why did I finally decide to ask this question? Well today the Chicago Tribune published a story about a University of Chicago researcher who has proved that humans can detect and are affected by (human) pheromones. Read about it at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0107250320jul25.story Cheers, Chuck Wettergreen Geneva, IL meadmakr@enteract.com chuckwm@hotmail.com (when the first one doesn't work) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Thanks re Shallow brood chambers, and question re rotation In-Reply-To: <200107250027.f6P0Rm813775@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reversing is not only widely used, but is well accepted as one of the more > positive controls of swarming. I refer to you to page 618 of the 1992 > Extensively Revised Edition of the Hive and Honey Bee. Thanks for replying to my letter George. "The Hive and Honey Bee" is not yet in my library, but I'll order it today. > If you are going to change from using two deep to 3 medium bodies for brood > chambers as I previously suggested, I fully intend to do so. The hive In over winter this year will be compacted into a single deep (each) and have mediums of foundation placed above them in the spring. If they leave the bottom chamber empty (I'm guessing that they will not) then I'll get them to three mediums this year. Otherwise I'll likely winter them next year with a deep on the bottom and two mediums above, with the expectation of removing the deep the following spring. I'll be buying 8 nucs this spring. I will probably only be able to get them on deep frames, so my intention with those new hives as well is to overwinter them in one deep and two mediums, and remove the deep the following spring. > reversing is easier with 3 bodies than with 2. > Just wait until all brood is gone from the bottom body, and place > that body above the other two. In the spring, bees like to go UP, > and hate going DOWN. Enough experienced beekeepers have said that now that I am taking it on faith that it is so. I am still struggling to reconcile that with what I have read about wild bees. My understanding there is that a newly established colony will start during swarming season at the top of the space they have chosen to occupy and build down. The brood is always at the bottom, and as the nest moves down the comb above them is filled with honey. During the winter, I understand, they will eat their way back up again so that by spring they are once again at the top and working their way down. Have I got that wrong? If I have it right, why do bees in hives want to go up if bees in hollow trees (etc) want to go down? > By reversing, you are just providing empty laying space for the > queen ABOVE her existing location. Understood. > What state are you in? Weather is SO important, and good advice > is weather dependent. I am near Ottawa, Ontario. We are well away from the moderating influence of the great lakes. I am told that our season ends in September when the frost kills the remaining asters and goldenrod, and begins again in April when there are no flowers yet but the trees have started budding. During the summer it is often hot and humid (This was week highs have been around 34 degrees C, or about 94F) and during the winter there will be extended periods below -20C (less than 0F) and a fair number of days will be below -30C (below -20F). I appreciate the time that you (and others here) have taken to help me learn more about this fascinating new part of my life. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 12:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Van Roekel, Bill" Subject: Re: Thanks re Shallow brood chambers, and question re rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am still struggling to reconcile that with what I have read about wild bees. My understanding there is that a newly established colony will start during swarming season at the top of the space they have chosen to occupy and build down. The brood is always at the bottom, and as the nest moves down the comb above them is filled with honey. During the winter, I understand, they will eat their way back up again so that by spring they are once again at the top and working their way down. Have I got that wrong? If I have it right, why do bees in hives want to go up if bees in hollow trees (etc) want to go down? This is precisely what one would expect them to do and it confirms all that you have been told by experienced beekeepers. When a swarm occupies a hollow tree, or a hive body for that matter, that has NO COMB OR foundation, the first thing they do is build some. They start from the top, and build down. They fill the first cells ( at the top ) with brood or nectar, (I do not know which), and as more comb is completed (going down), they fill it also. when they get to the bottom, (or what ever depth the comb happens to end up being), the queen will continue to lay eggs there, and as the brood above hatches out, it will be filled with nectar/honey/pollen. This will continue until winter, when the colony moves up, consuming the stored food. (leaving the bottom empty) If you put bees on drawn comb, they will store their food above the brood, just as you have been told. It is when a swarm initially has to build comb, that the reverse may happen, temporarily, until enough comb has been built, and the brood hatches out of the upper portion of the comb. In the last part of your statement, if the winter has been mild enough for the colony to consume all the stores at the level they are at, that is if they are able to move to the food, or move the food to the cluster - horizontally, then, in the spring, the only choice they have is to go down (there is no more "up" in the hive, they are at the top) Roekel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:32:47 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: pheromones affect humans? In-Reply-To: <200107251345.f6PDj9803497@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Chuck Wettergreen asked: >Do queen bee pheromones affect humans? This is an open question. It has not been answered by fact. Nobody should assert any answer. Chuck is unduly modest about it: >I've wanted to ask this question, but didn't want to >appear foolish. Well, guess you all can have a good >laugh. :?>) I doubt anyone will produce any reason to laugh. The past half-century in toxicology and other fields of chemical effects on Homo the Sap can be viewed as a steady stream of discoveries that, when suitably sensitive detection is applied, humans are indeed affected by smaller doses of this or that chemical than had previously seemed plausible. Having said that, I must point out that Chuck's fabulous calm may be of entirely psychological origins. It is indeed a wonderful, humbling experience to mangle the whole home of that insect which is capable of retaliating with severe pain to us, while wearing no protective gear, acting in faith that the bees can tell we're acting for their good. My own working model, devoid of scientific basis, is to assume 1 If I take it easy, going with the flow of the propolis so as not to cause jolts, etc etc, my sweat will smell reassuring to the bees rather than any flavour of fear that could be confused with aggression. 2 They can read my mind; they can tell my intentions are good for them. It is a matter of faith, isn't it? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:31:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: possible menthol-contaminated honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I purchased some locally-produced honey from a small produce/garden -type store a few days ago. Although it isn't overwhelmingly strong, the honey has a distinctive menthol aftertaste. My first thought was that the beekeeper who sold the honey to the store "cheated" in his application of menthol crystals: he applied the menthol crystals while he still had honey supers on. (In these parts, goldenrod blooms mid to late August through early to mid September; by the time those supers come off, the temperatures usually aren't warm enough to properly apply menthol crystals.) He knew that packers wouldn't take the contaminated honey, so he decided to sell it directly to retail stores, and hope that no one would be able to figure out the honey was contaminated. My question: should I give the beekeeper the benefit of the doubt? Is it possible to get a slight menthol aftertaste in honey supers that are put on right after menthol comes off? (E.g., perhaps he applied menthol in mid-July between nectar flows?) Or, is there a nectar source his bees could've found that contains menthol oil? (I've considered the possibility that I'm misidentifying a mint aftertaste as menthol, but I don't think so. I eat mints (peppermint, spearmint, etc.) on a regular basis, and that wasn't what came to mind when I tasted the honey. What immediately came to mind when I tasted the honey was the day the package of menthol crystals I'd ordered arrived, and I opened the package and was hit by that cold, bright, overpowering aroma...) -- James Ralston Pittsburgh, PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:50:17 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Andi Sadapotto Organization: Jurusan Kehutanan Fapertahut UNHAS Subject: Effectivity of formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FiestaLet me introduce myself. I am a beekeeper from Indonesia.I have a research program in applying formic acid in the colony . The purpose of my research is to compare the effectivity of Apistan with formic acid solution ( 3 concentration: 60%, 50% and 40%). I have a problem to count/estimate the population of varroa mites in the colony before the application. Does anyone know how to count/estimate the population of varroa mites in the colony ? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: magnetic north Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>What direction does a swarm of bees, in an empty box, build the comb? North, >>East, West, or South? Stan Sandler responded to that message and cited the following paper: >Orientation of Comb Building by Honeybees; David DeJong; Journal of >Comparative Physiology; 1982; 147: 495-501 Artificial magnetic fields (stronger than the Earth's magnetic field) may influence the direction in which combs are built. One can find a summary of some earlier such work in BEE WORLD (1974, April issue). Stan added: >The references in that paper refer to several papers on the optimum >arrangement of combs relative to the entrance direction and says there is >not agreement, but that at least two papers, one studying skeps, and one >studying tree nests show no preferred direction relative to the nest >entrance or to magnetic north. Stan appears to be correct in pointing out that no preferred direction seems to exist in Nature. For example, in our locating of feral colonies on Santa Cruz Island, we found combs with various orientations with respect to compass direction. During a conference a year ago April in Tucson, Jerry Loper showed many slides of feral colony combs in Arizona; again, combs faced in various directions, even within single colonies. Paul Cronshaw, of Santa Barbara, removed 14 colonies from a two story wood shake-sided building and found combs aligned in various directions in the four walls. In one case, a colony had built combs in the space between the floor and the ceiling of the room below. During the several years of its construction, that massive comb ended up with all sorts of alignment. The earliest combs had a southeast-northwest orientation. Later combs were nearly due east and west. Yet later combs were WSW-ENE, and the last combs were straight east and west. We humans tend to orient our structures (and often place our hives) in north-south alignment. Our behavior could thus influence the directions in which combs are built in hives. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "The history of science teaches us that each time we think * that we have it all figured out, nature has a radical surprise * in store for us that requires significant and sometimes drastic * changes in how we think the world works." * * Brian Greene (1999:373) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 01:08:11 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: possible menthol-contaminated honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, Preferring to give the said beekeeper the benefit of the doubt - Lime (Linden) honey produced from Tilia sp. does have a minty taste and aroma that is quite strong. What appearance did the honey show - granulated (fine/ coarse), colour? What did the label describe the honey as? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:32:28 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Digger Subject: Re: pheromones affect humans? In-Reply-To: <200107252212.f6PMCL820784@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Robert Mann wrote: > Chuck Wettergreen asked: > >Do queen bee pheromones affect humans? I am a raw novice at beekeeping, but the scent of my hive is extremely pleasant to me. I'm not sure exactly *what* I am smelling, but it is a very satisfying, feral scent... quite noticable by this time of year in my strong hive (and I hope it isn't a sign of something wrong! Though I can't believe that anything that pleasing could indicate something wrong). Richard __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 22:54:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: GM and AFB resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I stumbled across this (BACKWOODS BEEKEEPERS?) at http://www.beedata.com/afb_gmolink.htm Whilst trying to find something else (sound familiar?) start paste Circumstantial this bee story may be, but it can only be a matter of time before one of these backwoods beekeepers needs to make a trip into town for supplies and posts a few diseased bees to a laboratory which can identify the source of the resistance. If it is GM. Then the splattering from the faeces/fan interface should waken even the dozy US and Canadian public, whose own governments have for years forcefully silenced or cast out the numerous dissidents among their own researchers. A senior researcher at a British institute describes this scenario as "entirely plausible", and of course we no know for certain that modified genes cannot be confined to the target organisms. Article published in Private Eye Magazine End paste Whatever happened to that theory? It sounded as though it needed a very simple test to decide if it was plausible, and I'm surprised GM people didn't pick up on it, as the proof of horizontal transfer is desperately needed. I realise no-one here on Bee-L was punting it as gospel, but it sounded worth investigating... John Sewell " In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities" Suzuki. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 00:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Minty honey? In-Reply-To: <200107252215.f6PMFg820983@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I extracted some honey last year that smelled distinctly minty, and had a lovely spearmint like component to its odor. It was gathered by one of my colonies of "Urban Bees" in Clinton Township Michigan (A suburb of Detroit.) during late june or early july. (Before the purple loosestrife came into blossom.) After talking to a number of people, most thought it was probably linden or basswood honey. Thre are quite a few linden trees planted in subdivisions within a mile or two of this hive, so it is a possibility, tho there are few such trees within 4-6 blocks of this hive. Ellen in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:24:06 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Time Interval between Hive Moves. MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi I posted an item some weeks back about the time interval required between 3 feet moves of a hive. No replies appear to have been posted. I have now completed the move and can report as follows: The four hives concerned were in a line (although pointing in slightly different directions) at the edge of a concrete road. We moved them backwards (that is in the direction opposite to the way out for the bees) about 3 feet at a time, keeping the distances between the hives roughly constant. The line of the hives was rotated about one end of the line so as to move the hives to the side of the road. The distance moved by the farthest hive was about 30 feet in total. We moved the hives every day, in the early evening, while the bees were still flying. There was a nectar flow on, but not a very strong one. Once the hives were back on the road, away from the edge the bees were immediately flying straight into the entrance of each hive as if it had never moved. The first two moves away from the edge was not so easy for the bees as they appeared to be orientating on some weed plants by the edge. They would swoop around these, and then fly around for a second or two until locating the new entrance position. We had individual coloured shapes on the front of each hive(different colours and shapes on each hive). This experience suggests that in this set up, with no distinguishing features local to the hives, and with moves backwards, that daily moves of 3 feet appear to be no problem to the bees in finding the new location. Regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 05:13:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Whatever happened to that theory? It sounded as though it needed a very >simple test to decide if it was plausible, and I'm surprised GM people >didn't pick up on it, as the proof of horizontal transfer is desperately >needed. I realise no-one here on Bee-L was punting it as gospel, but it >sounded worth investigating... >John Sewell I raised this in conversation during a conference on GM a few months ago, and got a rather dismissive reply. It's the usual situation, unless it's investigated by someone with the proper academic credentials, and peer-reviewed, nobody takes any notice. Nobody's paying the scientists to do the work either, so it doesn't get looked at. Sorry to sound cynical, but I get a little tired of the academic closed shop mentality at times. I imagine that it would be a case of checking to see whether the AFB gene was identical to the one used in GM crops. At the same time, using the same antibiotic constantly on the same organism for 40 years or so is asking for trouble; it's a wonder that resistance hasn't arisen before. Throwing chemicals at a problem isn't much of a long-term solution. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: 4.9 foundation (renewing old comb) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said (about renewing brood comb): > to avoid build-up of chemicals from the environment. This is an interesting > matter on which I have not heard definitive information. Are there chemicals in > the combs after a few years, and is new comb better in this regard? Not only yes, but heck, yes. PDB, all the Varroa treatments, you name it, it is all "in there", in detectable levels. Given that old comb is recycled into new foundation, the level of contamination of commercial foundation will only continue to increase over time. The Lusbys have (forgive the pun) "waxed philosophical" on this point at length: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part10.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part11.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part12.htm http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part13.htm I've never seen anyone who sells PDB admit that it contaminates wax. Of course, many of the same people buy wax, form it into foundation, and re-sell it. The good news is that one can ask that one's own wax be converted to foundation, but this is only practical for "the big operators". I've got a whole list of citations of papers published on the subject, but a simple google search with the search terms ("comb" or "wax") and ("PDB" or "paradichlorobenzene") should be enough to get the basic facts. I dunno what happens when the use of organophosphate Varroa controls becomes more common, but this stuff, even in trace levels, is bad news. It is kinda strange. If one looks at beekeeping as a "normal business", one's most valuable "tangible asset" is supers of drawn comb. The good news is that (except for PDB), the contamination is focused on the brood comb. My solution? I find that I can sell my cappings wax and "retired" combs for a much better price as valued-added products. I wish that "brood comb" would never be recycled into foundation, but I am a dreamer. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Charles wettergreen Subject: shipping bees by US Postal Service Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I went to the the USPS web site where they have a Q & A feature. I asked about the report we saw here about the USPS no longer carrying bees as of 8-27-01. Below is their reply. At 07/25/2001 04:27 PM we wrote - Thank you for visiting our web site. We appreciate your concerns. However, the shipment of live animals and honeybees will be processed in the same manner in which we have always offered. The Postal Service has four major commercial airlines it may use for the shipment of live animals. With regards to honeybees, as stated in our Domestic Mail Manual, Section C022.37, Bees are acceptable in the continental surface mail when shipped under federal and state regulations to ensure that they are free of disease. Packages of honeybees must bear special handling postage, except those sent at a First-Class Mail rate. Only queen honeybees may be shipped via air transportation. Each queen honeybee shipped via air transportation may be accompanied by up to 8 attendant honeybees. Cheers, Chuck Wettergreen Geneva, IL meadmakr@eneteract.com chuckwm@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Marc Sevigny Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Sevigny Subject: Re: possible menthol-contaminated honey? Comments: To: James Ralston MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "James Ralston" Subject: possible menthol-contaminated honey? > Although it isn't overwhelmingly strong, the honey has a distinctive > menthol aftertaste. The honey that came from my hives a couple of years ago that also had a distinctive minty aroma and flavor. It was NOT the result of misapplication of menthol, however. I never did determine the source, and haven't noticed that flavor since. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:01:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: possible menthol-contaminated honey? Comments: To: Marc Sevigny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Is it possible the honey is from wild mint or linden? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:00:15 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Contaminants in Wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Wax is a liphophilic sink, binding lots of different chemicals. Years ago, I killed two colonies placed on comb that had been stored in a closet with an old Vapona pest strip. We can find metals, organics, and lots of other things in wax. If one finds chemicals in wax, you often have no idea of where or when the chemical got into the wax - especially since beekeepers often keep combs for years. However, old comb is not necessarily worse than new comb in terms of contaminant levels. Bees rebuild comb and in doing so may "dilute" out some of the contaminants captured in the old comb. Volatile organic chemicals (solvents, some of the by-products of burning gasoline and diesel, etc.) seem to be in a constant state of flux with the wax, both being taken up and released, depending on temperature, humidity, etc. Lots of complex surface chemistry is going on. Cheers Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:36:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Effectivity of formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by dronebee@JAZZFREE.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove most of a previously posted submission. ----------------- Original message (ID=7E651BB7) (48 lines) ------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:10:43 +0200 From: dr pedro p rodriguez To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Subject: Re: Effectivity of formic acid Hello Andy. There are several mthods that you can use. Alcohol o ether roll, counting varroa in the larvae. I would like to recommend the method that has been usefel for me. It is as follows: Take out a frame with capped brood and mark an area approximately 100 square cm, (10 X 10 cm). Remove one hundred capped bee larvae, (preferably 50 drones and 50 workerss,) with a sharp instrument (I use a large needle) and count the Varroa mites that you can see parasiting the larvae. Divide the number of larvae by the number of cells removed and mutily by 100. number of varroa larvae X 100 = % infestation number of bee larvae removed example 13 varroa found X 100 = 13% infestation 100 capped larvae I hope that I have helped. Good luck. Dr. Rodriguez 100 bee larvae examined Andi Sadapotto wrote: > Does anyone know how to count/estimate the population of varroa > mites in the colony ? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a bee-related nutshell - need we worry about horizontal transfer of GM genes to bee gut bacteria? GM companies no longer use antibiotic resistance as a marker gene (ah, but why?), so it is unlikely that *new* crops will transfer antibiotic resistance to bee gut bacteria. For humans, if we are concerned we need to get informed. If we are informed and are still concerned we need to make noise that someone who can respond will listen to. On a personal note, I am concerned about the potential side-effects of covering huge acreages of land with genetically modified crops whose behaviour is not entirely predictable. Just by chance, something will happen. What - like horizontal transfer of an herbicide resistance gene to a weed, or BT (an entomotoxin) to wildflowers - no one can predict. For the record I am a molecular entomologist by profession and I am not doing GM work. My statement may be considered biased because my personal, which I consider informed, view is that GM products are unnecessary to ensure human well-being, "food for the starving" or effective farming. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:47:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? In-Reply-To: <200107261701.f6QH1x823649@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin, Is this true of all "new" GM crops, or just newly developed crops. In other words, will GM crops developed years ago that are offered for sale next year no longer have this antibiotic resistant marker gene? Is this true of just certain companies or all? The US or worldwide? If these genes have indeed transfered to weeds such as rape, and with the cases in Canada where GM markers have been found in crops grown by farmers that never intended to grow GMO's (due to drift from other farms), what is projected time period until these genes are spread nationwide? Even if all companies worldwide stopped using the antibiotic resistant genes today, the genie seems to be out of the bag. Sort of like deciding not to import more african bees to the Americas after that first swarm had left the area. -----Original Message----- From: Martin Damus In a bee-related nutshell - need we worry about horizontal transfer of GM genes to bee gut bacteria? GM companies no longer use antibiotic resistance as a marker gene (ah, but why?), so it is unlikely that *new* crops will transfer antibiotic resistance to bee gut bacteria. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:11:38 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: 4.9 foundation (renewing old comb) In-Reply-To: <200107261209.f6QC9f813464@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's generally recommended that all comb, including burr, from brood supers treated with organophosphates be burned. No recycling of wax. I would hope you would take precautions such as burning out of doors, don't breath the fumes, etc.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 07:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Minty honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the past few weeks, my bees have been working mint blossoms. I've never noticed a minty taste in the honey: Perhaps the fraction of mint nectar is too minor to make a difference here, but where mint is really plentiful it might become noticeable. Walter Weller Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:38:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Entrance on the long side In-Reply-To: <200107261042.f6QAgd812167@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I came across a web site recently that advocated running hives 90 degrees rotated from the usual orientation, which is to say that the bottom board is modified to place the entrance on what is generally considered to be the side of the hive. It seems to me that this arrangement offers at least two benefits: The entrance, when not using a reducer, is larger allowing for easier passing of large numbers of bees and better ventilation during hot times of the year. When working the hive from the rear, the frames are facing the beekeeper. I find I work my hives from the side in order to get a better view of the frames. It seems to me that working from the rear and getting this same view would make the work more efficient while increasing the safety of the beekeeper and reducing stress on the bees (both by keeping the beekeeper away from the front of the hive.) Has anybody tried this and had success? Has anybody tried this and found problems with it? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? In-Reply-To: <200107261042.f6QAgg812177@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One reason the "GM people" are not investigating is that it is not in their best interests to prove such a thing. So, funding would have to come from groups opposing GM research. Some researchers have noted that this resistance is also quite heavy in areas that feed/process honey from south america, where the resistance first was heavily recognized. They do use GM crops heavily there, but may also not properly use antibiotics. The resistance is then quickly spread from hive to hive by drone drift (very popular idea -- I know my drones just go in and out of any hive at will). -----Original Message----- From: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology [mailto:BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Brenchley Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 5:14 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? >Whatever happened to that theory? It sounded as though it needed a very >simple test to decide if it was plausible, and I'm surprised GM people >didn't pick up on it, as the proof of horizontal transfer is desperately >needed. I realise no-one here on Bee-L was punting it as gospel, but it >sounded worth investigating... >John Sewell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:54:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Pyramid Subject: Re: Entrance on the long side MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have always used about one third of my hives (8-10) with a longways entrance. I did this due to some long-ago book recommendations which I no longer remember. I have never found any difference from any aspect--handling, bees, combs, honey, etc. If you find it more convenient, then do it. For someone starting out, I would recommend the stsandard arrangement. Burns ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 11:54:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Creative tools in Beekeeping boxes In-Reply-To: <200107261642.f6QGgG822625@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Aaron Morris wrote: >dr pedro p rodriguez Wrote >Remove one hundred capped bee larvae, (preferably 50 drones >and50 workerss,) with a sharp instrument (I use a large needle) and count the >Varroa mites that you can see parasiting the larvae. Interesting what thinkgs beekeepers press into service as bee- tools. Grass, Bird wings, i guess we all have our favorites, including me. Instead of a large needle- I like to keep a dissection pick in my beekeeping toolbox. It is a wooden handle about the size of a pencil with a large sharp probe sticking out of one end. They are avaialble from college bookstores and Scientific supply places- it is a standard tool in any dissection kit. These are great for opening up single cells to see how far along the brood are, poking about and removing extra queen cells, or just about anything where you want to poke about with something smaller than a hive tool or a fingertip. Since they are cheap, I don't mind when I lose or bend one. Handy thing to have! The other funny tool I have in my toolbox is a flat plastic hand shovel from a childs bucket and shovel beach set. When I'm working in my TBH, bits of wax get strewn all over the bottom as i scrape and trim. The bees just fasten these to the floor unless they are right near the enterance, creating a bumpy nubbly mess. I use the shovel to scrape together and lift out these scrapings to keep things tidy Oh- I almost forgot- I have broken many of those frame cleaning tools that the catalogs list- so I had my husband reshape and sharpen up an old horses hoof pick. It's much tougher than that little wire tool, and it does a dandy job of scraping out grooves and such. The handle is a lot easier on the hand too! Anybody else have funny items they keep in their beekeeping kit just because they are so handy? Please share! Ellen in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 16:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Minty honey? In-Reply-To: <200107261803.f6QI36826055@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, it sounds quite good - provided it is from a natural source. I've started a new planting of Anise Hyssop and Mountain Mint - not much this year, but both spread well (the mint has already sent out long runners and has only been in a few weeks). Perhaps next year I'll be able to tell you if the honey is affected. And yes, we have LOTS of room -- might as well grow mint in the fields, makes it smell good when we mow (about three times a year). -----Original Message----- For the past few weeks, my bees have been working mint blossoms. I've never noticed a minty taste in the honey: Perhaps the fraction of mint nectar is too minor to make a difference here, but where mint is really plentiful it might become noticeable. Walter Weller Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:18:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Is this true of all "new" GM crops, or just newly developed crops. >In other words, will GM crops developed years ago that are offered >for sale next year no longer have this antibiotic resistant marker >gene? Is this true of just certain companies or all? The US or >worldwide? Unfortunately all I can say is "I don't know". New crops, no matter where manufactured, are almost certainly not marked with antibiotic genes, and since the US and Canada produce probably most of the world's GM crops that would mean that worldwide crops no longer have antibiotic genes. Whether the old crops are still around I cannot say. I would have to guess that somewhere, someone has kept back some seed for reuse?? >If these genes have indeed transfered to weeds such as rape, and with >the cases in Canada where GM markers have been found in crops grown >by farmers that never intended to grow GMO's (due to drift from other >farms), what is projected time period until these genes are spread >nationwide? That would all depend on the mobility of the seeds and pollen, and whether or not the new genes confer some form of advantage to the plant. It is possible that the manufacture of the products of these new genes confers no advantage to the plant when it is not being liberally doused with, say, roundup, and that in direct competition with non-GM plants the added cost of making the proteins that protect againts roundup will make it less competitive than non-GM plants. In that case it will slowly be extirpated if not under control in a farm field. Of course that is not true if the gene transferred makes the BT toxin, which would render it some immunity to insect predation and put it at an extreme competitive advantage. Many weeds are in the Brassicaceae family, as is Canola. Plants hybridize quite readily; the species barrier in plants is not as distinct as in animals, so there is, in my mind at least the non-insignificant possibility that gm pollen inseminates a non-gm wee! d ovum. I guess we have little choice now but to wait and see. Martin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 15:23:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hive entrances Frank asks whether having entrances on the long side is a good idea? 1. I just read, perhaps in this months ABF, a short summary of a study comparing stores with entrance location relative to the comb. Both feral and domestic equipment was considered and the authors found no effect on stores AND no other apparent preference by the bees. 2. BEE-AWARE...if you are considering the equipment by a Canadian manufacturer, NO OTHER AMERICAN EQUIPMENT WILL FIT THE BOXES! That means excluders, supers, covers, etc. This spring I had a guy spend $300 on this equipment, and then have to scrap it all when he found (after assembly and painting) that the overall size is not standard in the US. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:55:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Entrance on the long side In-Reply-To: <200107261803.f6QI3K826101@listserv.albany.edu>; from Frank@DWYERHILL.COM on Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 08:38:45AM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 08:38:45AM -0400, Frank I. Reiter wrote: > I came across a web site recently that advocated running hives 90 degrees > rotated from the usual orientation, which is to say that the bottom board is > modified to place the entrance on what is generally considered to be the > side of the hive. > > Has anybody tried this and had success? Has anybody tried this and found > problems with it? > One of my hives has a bottom board in this style. It doesn't seem to make any particular difference either to the bees, or to me when I open up the hive. I'd say that, at least in my climate, it isn't worth worrying about. Of course, I'm in far northern Michigan, and the temperature rarely gets above 80F, so the bees don't really have any cooling problems anyway. If the wider entrance makes any difference at all, it would probably be in hotter climates. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:19:48 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? In-Reply-To: <200107261701.f6QH1x823649@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Martin Damus wrote: > need we worry about horizontal transfer of GM genes to bee gut bacteria? >GM companies no longer use antibiotic resistance as a marker gene (ah, but >why?), so it is unlikely that *new* crops will transfer antibiotic >resistance to bee gut bacteria. My informants in the trade tell me this is far from the case. The gene-tampering enthusiasts have never conceded that antibiotic-resistance genes are a significant hazard in crops. They have however just recently started to say vaguely for PR purposes that they are moving on to newer methods which don't use those genes. The number of crops in development from these newer methods is small, I'm told; and are the newer methods actually less ecologically dangerous? Just being different does not guarantee acceptable danger. Sceptical scrutiny by scientists like Martin has not typified the commercialisation process until now, and I doubt it has been arranged for these newer models. >My statement may be considered biased because my personal, which I >consider informed, view is that GM products are unnecessary to ensure >human well-being, "food for the starving" or effective farming. Right with you there, Martin. No need has been shown for this novel gambling. It is indeed as you say unpredictable in its ecological effects. http://www.i-sis.org/tryptophan.shtml is a brief warning of what can go wrong; but there are vastly more failure modes, most of which are not foreseeable. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:42:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Entrance on the long side MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/26/01 2:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Pyramid@EPIX.NET writes: > I have always used about one third of my hives (8-10) with a longways > entrance. I have a few like that myself, It was supposed to keep the wind from whistleing between the combs. Anyway I find putting an old queen container in the center of the opening helps keep things from sagging. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 12:53:15 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Gillette Subject: Re: Entrance on the long side Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently constructed a bottom board with an entrance on the long side. I figured that in April and May (here in Fairbanks Alaska) with the hives facing south that the hives may absorb more of the suns warmth. Lance Gillette Fairbanks Alaska ______________________________________________________ Lance Gillette Bibliographic Access Management Elmer E. Rasmuson Library University of Alaska Fairbanks Tel. (907) 474-7206 Email: FNLDG1@uaf.edu Fax. (907) 474-5068 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 06:50:44 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Effectivity of formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > FiestaLet me introduce myself. I am a beekeeper from Indonesia.I have a > research program in applying formic acid in the colony . The purpose of my > research is to compare the effectivity of Apistan with formic acid > solution ( 3 concentration: 60%, 50% and 40%). Which race of bee are you working with? Apis mellifera or Apis cerana? Which type of varroa are you working with? Varroa destructor or V. jacobsoni? Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 19:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lillian Jones Subject: Re: Effectivity of formic acid Another way to estimate the varroa in your hives is to catch the bees in a jar with a screen lid (8 mesh: 8 wires per inch) and pour a tablespoonful of powdered sugar in with the bees. The mites let go, and you can shake them out onto a piece of paper. You wait and shake several times, and then let the bees go again. If you have trouble counting the mites, you can put the mite-suger mix in water or alcohol to wash off the powder. The trick is estimating the number of bees in your jar. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 18:01:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Effectivity of formic acid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is software available called VarroaPop that helps with estimations of Varroa Populations from natural mite fall. The program can be downloaded from http://gears.tucson.ars.gov . Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jul 0101 02:17:26 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Minty Honey? We have hives near large peppermint fields grown for the oil.The honey they make is dark,strong flavored,without any hint of minty flavor. Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 16:44:49 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: bitter, rancid =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22potentiated=AE=22?= pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The brief story below outlines an issue on which I am engaged as a consultant by one commercial party. In appealling to beekeepers for help in this matter, I hope any other interests will be declared. I have just learned that the rancid pollen is being exported, so please do what you can to warn about it. It is also conceivable that the "potentiation" process could be done elsewhere than NZ. I fear it will bring pollen into disrepute as a food supplement when properly-dried pollen is a good food. BANKS TELLS POLLEN CRITICS TO BUZZ OFF Sunday Star-Times [NZ] 01-2-18 p. A8 Kim Purdy {photo, without Harley; caption JOHN BANKS} Former MP John Banks stands by his bee pollen products, now the subject of a complaint laid with the Advertising Standards Complaints Board. John Triggs, managing director of rival bee product company Abeeco, claims Banks' products have no scientific basis and are not fit for human consumption. Says Banks: "I see this man as just nothing more or less than an aggrieved competitor and I don't give those sort of people mind time." The products are Topline International's Nature Bee potentiated bee pollen capsules. Topline claims its process of potentiation, or increasing [sic] of regular pollen, improves digestion of the product by up to 80 times. Topline co-owner Ben Cook said he and Banks were relaxed about the complaint. He said similar complaints Triggs had laid in the past had not been upheld. Triggs said Abeeco, fellow bee company Comvita, the National Nutritional Foods Association and Auckland biochemist Dr Robert Mann had requested scientific evidence from Topline and its supplier [sic], Canterbury University dean of science [he no longer is] Dr Kelvin Duncan, but they had produced nothing. Mann, a former member of the government's toxic substances board, responsible for scheduling poisons, said the product should not be permitted for human consumption. He said pollen contained essential fatty acids which were vulnerable to breakdown during storage and could become poisonous. Testing on animals was essential to prove the potentiated process [sic] was safe. However, Cook said their scientific evidence was sound: "Why would we as a marketing company market a product which wasn't substantiated? "We're not going to associate ourselves with a product which isn't proven." Banks resigned from his controversial breakfast show on Radio Pacific in January to relaunch his business career and see his health food company listed on the stock exchange. --- Explanatory note: The ASA panel, led by senior scientist Dr Mervyn Probine, determined that the claims of improved nutritive value were false & misleading. They did not suggest any conclusion on possible toxicity. What Duncan is reported to have 'supplied' is an invention of cracking pollen grains by suddenly dropping from ca30 bar an atmosphere of carbon dioxide. He has never provided any scientific info at all in support of the claim that pollen's nutritive value is thus raised 80x. Indeed, this claim is known to be false if Topline's claim be true that bio-availability of normal pollen is 10-30%; at that rate the outer limit for potential improvement is 10x not 80x. The principle is the same as with GEF: a novel process to modify food should not be permitted until proper testing has shown the modified food to be OK. Pusztai & Ewen, and Showa Denko before them, have produced evidence that GEF can be very much *not* OK; Duncan has produced no evidence of testing for his modified pollen, and it should therefore not be permitted for human consumption. Here is my statement on this matter from the Abeeco newsletter: > "My concerns are three. >Any claim to multiply the benefits of pollen by the huge factor of 80-fold >is implausible; where are the measurements on which it could be based? > After the 'potentiation' process, what is the stability of the good >chemicals in the pollen - do they then have a normal shelf-life? >And if they break down, are the resulting breakdown products toxic? > Testing on animals will be required to settle this last concern. Until >these concerns are settled by facts, this 'potentiated' pollen should in >my opinion not be permitted for human consumption." Since writing that, I have tasted some of the "potentiated" pollen, and tasted anew ordinary pollen. The brown "potentiated" material tastes bitter & rancid. My concern for beekeepers is that if this "potentiated" stuff turns out to be harmful, or merely less nutritious, when tested, sales of normal pollen by beekeepers (around $25/kg, I gather) might be crueled. Any comments would be welcome. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:09:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Creative tools in Beekeeping boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Anybody else have funny items they keep in their > beekeeping kit just because they are so handy? > Please share! I like to keep an empty match box handy in case I want to temporarily cage the queen. It's a handy item to keep the queen out of harm's way during drastic hive manipulations. And of course I try to always have a roll of duct tape on hand. Number 7 on the top ten list of things you'll never heard said in the south: "Duct tape'll never fix that!" Aaron Morris - thinking duct tape, the beekeeper's friend! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 07:05:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GM and AFB resistance? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was an excellent PBS Frontline special on GM crops. It was balanced and came to some conclusions that surprised me but were consistent with what I learned from a discussion of GM foods from a reporter who has covered food for thirty years. The antibiotic resistant gene was used as a marker to determine if the desired gene made it into the target crop or was spread to others. It was describe as a common scientific method, but has been discontinued in GM crops. There is quite a bit about it on the web but mostly in the "what if" as opposed to that any antibiotic resistance has been transferred. It has generally been described as a "lazy" method of tagging and other less controversial methods are available and now used. The possibility of transference to an animal or insect has been described as improbable but not impossible by most. However, gene transference from plant to plant has occurred. It is interesting that the Frontline special came down solidly on the fact that GM crops are not essential in the developed countries if you are willing to tolerate continued pesticide use. But GM crops in developing countries were essential to bring them above subsistence farming, malnutrition and possible starvation. I was also surprised to learn how widespread GM crops are in the US and that we have been eating GM corn for years. The conclusion of the program was more "wait and see" than coming down on one side or the other, but the slant was definitely toward GM. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 21:13:22 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: S W Cranfield Subject: Re: Minty Honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i get a very nice minty type honey that granulates with a very fine grain, its reddish when liquid and off white when granulated and comes from penny royal in the autumn. incidently its a high peroxidaze honey too . shaun cranfield New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim McGarry Subject: Re: hive entrances Loyd is correct, there appears to be no distinct advantage to running colonies with a wide entrance. I tried this about 4 years ago with several colonies along with giving them a "ventilated" box over top of the inner cover. I still have at least 8 or 9 colonies set up this way but I find no effect on swarming or honey production. Those issues are better dealt with by giving plenty of room in the brood chambers as well as honey supers and young queens. In addition, the British National supers and frames are NOT compatible with the Langstroth equipment.You can modify things and move bes over from one to the other, but why create the extra work. Been there and done that. On the other hand, the British National equipment is nice and fun to have if for nothing else a novelty aspect. I still have a couple of colonies housed in what was called the Kerkoff side-by-side ventilated beehive. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 05:39:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Rich Subject: Re: Entrance on the long side MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank I. Reiter asks Has anybody tried this[wide entrances] and had success? Has anybody tried this and found problems with it? Frank - I have tried and like wide entrance bottom boards. In fact, I have a number of 'normal' bottom boards to sell/give if someone wants them. Regarding cooling, this may not be the case without top ventilation. If cooling is your concern, there also have been several posts regarding screened bottoms(check the archives). I know that wide entrances with top ventilation similar to the D.E. hive works well in our climate(North Carolina) to eliminate the bearding and fanning in warm weather(90-100 degrees). I also feel (by observation) that the hives that I have with wide entrances/top ventilation have more activity, and know emperically that they produce more honey. As to whether the bees like this better and are less aggressive - I don't know. I have always worked the hives from the back, and the wide entrance makes it easier to manipulate the parts (as in less clumsy/easier on the back). I don't get stung often either way, and still purchase hives with normal entrances - though I change the bottom board as soon as I have the time to make another when I have depleted my supply. Try it in your locale. If you like it, the bees don't seem to mind. If you don't like it, then you are no worse off for trying. If ventilation is the goal, the warm air rising through the hive works great, and when the weather is warm and still, the entire yard smells like a huge bee hive. Tim Rich - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 08:26:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: hive entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Lloyd Spear wrote: "BEE-AWARE...if you are considering the equipment by a Canadian manufacturer, NO OTHER AMERICAN EQUIPMENT WILL FIT THE BOXES!" I think this is too broad a statement. A prominent supplier in New York sells a lot of "standard" sized equipment stamped "Made in Canada" and they fit fine. The wood is a bit thicker, and chiseling is required to get frame spacers to fit (if you use them), but otherwise the dimensions are "pretty standard". However, it is well documented in BEE-L archives about one particular hive design out of Ontario (the D.E. Hive) which abandons totally the "standard dimensions" of US Langstroth equipment. I believe it is that equipment to which Lloyd alludes. Although I'm not willing to mount a campaign to insist that all manufacturers adhere to set dimensions within a particular standard deviation, I think buyers should be aware of manufacturers who toss "standard" dimensions to the wind. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 20:50:35 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: pheromones affect humans? In-Reply-To: <200107260251.f6Q2p2800315@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I am a raw novice at beekeeping, but the scent of my >hive is extremely pleasant to me. ... >I can't believe that anything >that pleasing could indicate something wrong. The role of scent in beekeeping is important, e.g. AFB sets up a nasty pong (but earlier methods of detection should be used). As for the final philosophical declaration, it sounds plausible but I refer you to the passage in The Pilgrim's Progress when our heroes, proceeding in the right direction along a ridge, are lured down into a remarkably beautiful valley where they then get into some of the worst strife including the Castle of Despair. Having miraculously escaped and regained the path of righteousness, Pilgrim concludes from that very close call "I mistook beauty for truth". A more topical example might be seen in some dazzling starlets who look very nice but aren't. R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:53:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Gary P Johns/ets/relat/Okstate Subject: Re: hive entrances MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron brought up the D. E. hive.... While David Eyre has designed a hive that flows in the face of conventional thinking as far as the Langstroth hive is concerned, it should be noted that he has also produced a modification kit for the Langstroth hive that works rather nicely. I ordered a kit from David last year. Living in the southwest (Oklahoma and yes I know it's not really the SW :) it does get considerably warm here at times. In fact we're at 60 odd days and counting of 100+ degrees Fahrenheit. The kit consists of material to make a bottom board...a ventilated inner cover, ventilated spacer box and a ventilated telescoping cover. The inner cover is complete but everything else you assemble. I have completed my first year with this modification on one of my hives and I did notice considerably less hanging out of the ladies on the front porch in the evenings. It worked very well this last winter in keeping the hive dry and the ladies liked the upper entrance/exit. Now this particular queen (daughter from last year's monarchy) doesn't like the air conditioned inner cover and directed the royal court to propolize it closed. But it will be very easy to fix once the cold is upon us again. All in all I would recommend this kit if you have a few hives and want to convert to a side mounted entrance. The only thing I did to modify the kit was to put an aluminum top on the roof to prevent hail damage. I do not receive anything from David for this recommendation, except possibly his gratitude. Gary Johns OSU Educational Television ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 09:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: peroxidaze honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" shaun cranfield wrote, " ... its a high peroxidaze honey too ." For those who don't know, what is peroxidaze honey, and for me specifically, how is this determined? Thanks, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:50:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: hive entrances In-Reply-To: <200107271522.f6RFM8803422@listserv.albany.edu>; from gpjohns@OKSTATE.EDU on Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:53:22AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:53:22AM -0500, Gary P Johns/ets/relat/Okstate wrote: > All in all I would recommend this kit if you have a few hives and want to > convert to a side mounted entrance. The only thing I did to modify the kit > was to put an aluminum top on the roof to prevent hail damage. > The hive I have with a side entrance is also a D.E. conversion kit. Unfortunately, in my climate it rarely gets hot enough for the bees to "beard" on the outside of the hive in any case, so the D.E. hive conversion doesn't seem to have much impact on the performance here. As far as overwintering, the hives with a sheet of styrofoam over the inner cover (with a channel cut to the center hole to make an upper entrance) came through the winter just as well as the D. E. conversion did, two years in a row. I expect that aggressive ventilation is a lot more beneficial in other areas, but around here it looks like heat conservation is more of an issue. I've also started going to screened bottom boards, which seem to work OK, although the hives that have them seem to get off to a slower start in the morning. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 18:49:17 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Queen Finding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I was told by a beekeeper here in Gormanston at the Beekeeping School that he has cracked the problem with queen finding. When he finds queen cells in his hives, he brings them home and places them in the deep freeze. Then when he wishes to find a queen he inserts a thawed out queen cell into the hive, marks the frame on which the cell is placed, and half an hour later he finds the queen on that frame having been lured there by the queen cell. He swears that it is not a leg pull and says he does it all the time. What sayest the List? Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2001 17:55:47 -0400 Reply-To: Alan.Fiala@aya.yale.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ADFiala Subject: Honey in Cameroon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Smithsonian Magazine for August 2001 has a nice short pictorial article on collecting honey from wild bees in Cameroon. If you have access to a copy, perhaps from a library, check out the protective gear. Alan Fiala ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 09:38:28 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: peroxidaze honey In-Reply-To: <200107271528.f6RFSH803569@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >shaun cranfield wrote, " ... its a high peroxidaze honey too ." > >For those who don't know, what is peroxidaze honey, and >for me specifically, how is this determined? Without any disrespect to my countryman Shaun (whom I don't know), let me offer a reply. Peroxidase (so spelt) is a type of enzyme, found in many organisms, which catalyses the breakdown of hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen: 2H202 = 2H2O + O2 {you'll have to imagine that the numbers after the symbols for the elements are subscripts} It is somewhat surprising that this enzyme occurs in honey. Several methods can be used to measure the peroxidase activity of honey; if you want an accurate measurement, rather than just a vague indication, it's a somewhat complex lab job to measure the rate of change of concentration of one or more of those three chemicals. This type of catalytic activity occurs in some honeys, and has been investigated by my esteemed countryman Dr Peter Molan (U of Waikato) as possibly involved in the antibiotic wound-dressing powers of liquid honey. It does not go far to explain those wonderful powers; none of the individual components does, and so I tentatively conclude that this is an example of synergism: the total effect is many times the sum of the separate individual components' effects. I don't at all wish to open up any dispute with Peter's excellent school, of whom I have no significant criticism, but I do suspect that peroxidase activity is not a very important property of honey. R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 17:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sandy Kear Subject: Two Questions: Definition and Consequences In-Reply-To: <200107272230.f6RMUM815922@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have a couple of quick questions for the listmembers in New York State. Does anyone know at what point a beekeeper is defined/considered by Ag & Markets to be a "commercial" beekeeper? Way back when my husband first started beekeeping, the offocial definition was anyone who owned more than 5 hives, but they dropped that when they dropped the inspection program. My second question is whether or not they've reinstituted the inspection program or not, and what the procedure is, should you happen be over the "limit" of hives you can own as a hobbyist? Thanks! Sandy