From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:55 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E214F24ADC3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9Z008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9Z008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0108A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 246277 Lines: 4938 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 02:20:23 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Agreed that genes express a wide base of traits - either in dominant or double recessive combinations. This then leads on to another point of detail. Taking that A.m.m. and other A.m. bees have not come into contact with V.j. until man intervened - why should A.m. have the genetic blueprint for SMR ready and waiting to be used? Taking antibodies in the immunity system as an example, the mechanisms for producing the right proteins are there but the actual antibodies are not, that is, not until contact has been established with the foreign material. Would it not be the same regarding the D.N.A sequence for gene code protecting against Varroa. i.e. the mechanism is there (mutation) but not the actual code ready and waiting. Unless A.m. has ALREADY been in contact in the past directly or indirectly via an earlier bee type that has passed on its genetic configuration. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:18:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200107310854.f6V8s8829510@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've read the advice several posters have given in response to this inquiry and would like to add a couple of cents worth. In my former life I used a Nikon with a collection of lenses and concur that the cost of film, particularly when trying to capture flighty subjects is high. About a year ago, I purchased the Sony Mavica for a number of reasons. 1) It uses a standard 3" floppy for storage. These are cheap, portable, and almost universally standard. No special equipment needed to read them. Depending on mode, you can store 6-12 photos on each disc unless you choose "bitmap" in which case it's a single photo; 2) The lens offers 14x zoom and a macro function. I have focused to within 1" of subjects filling the frame with a well focused 1/2" bead. On the other end of the scale, our honey house is about 125 yards from the house and I've photographed a swarm from the porch. I could count the individual bees and after choosing the fastest "shutter" speed and zooming in on the hives near it. 3) The chip is an older one (got a good price just before they introduced the 2 meg version) and has only 850K pixels. But if you do the math, and if I understand the optical zoom function correctly, resolution is several times better than a 2 meg chip with 3x zoom. 4) I've learned to like the option to use either the peer through view finder or the 2.5" screen. The latter is not helpful in bright conditions when the sun hits the screen but is helpful at other times since I wear glasses. The standard view finder is actually a small screen with a magnifying lens in front of it. 5) The choice of controls is broad and can be used in auto mode or manual. The camera is equipped with a "steady cam" function which is helpful at the extreme zoom settings. (For some of us it's helpful all the time.) The Down Side: a) It's big and about the klunkiest looking thing I've ever seen; b) Recording the image is slower than on a flash card - about 3 seconds to record the image; c) In-camera editing is via a menu system. It's OK after you get the hang of it, but it's slow. I use it only to delete rejects in the field. If you can find a camera with a good zoom lens, choose it over the optical zoom which almost any photo editing program can do on your computer. The more your viewfinder is filled with the subject you're interested in recording, the better your edited and finished photos will be. If you intend to keep the photos in an archive for a long time, have them reduced to film from your digital format and printed. The inks in most digital printers fade far faster than photographic prints. If you intend to store them on disk for future use, keep in mind that electronic storage, optical storage, and magnetic storage all degrade over time. You'r good shots should be re-recorded on a scheduled basis. And of course make sure you keep equipment and software which can read your images as technology leaves old equipment obsolete and unavailable. This advice is worth exactly what you paid for it and is intended for the rankest of amateurs among us, including me. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 05:25:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200107310855.f6V8t7829532@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you don't want to spend a ton of money just yet, you can by closeup filters (about $10-20 American)that come in +1, +2, +3 and +4. A +2 screwed on the end of about a 150mm lens brings you in pretty close. I use a 400-speed film to allow good shutter speeds. The only problem is you get very little depth of field, and you have to position yourself within a few inches of the subject. But with honeybees, you can usually do this. I've followed a bee around for 5-10 minutes as it worked the flowers in my front yard, and I've gotten some excellent photos. Eugene Makovec Makovec Photography Kirkwood, MO USA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:51:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Peter Dillon asks, "why should A.m. have the genetic blueprint for SMR ready and waiting to be used?" I don't know. I can't explain why the combination of genes resulting in SMR traits exist, and John Harbo cannot explain what is behind the fact that SMR traits result in suppressed mite reproduction. He has however done the work to show suppressed mite reproduction and shown this to be a heritable trait across generations. Stating that A. m. can't possible have genetic resistance to V.d. because the former was never exposed to the later is a faulty assertion. It could possible be that whatever the gene combination that expresses SMR was there to help A.m. combat something in it's natural environment. It could be any number of things. Whatever is the reason we probably will never know. Frankly this is all speculation. The guy who has done the work states he doesn't know what puts the SMR in SMR. It has not been isolated to a single gene and is currently being attributed to a combination of genes as I wrote yesterday. John did not splice genes to "create" SMR, he selectively bred from bees that appeared back in the mid-90s to be more tolerant to varroa. Through continued selective breeding he was able to breed bees that were continually exhibiting more and more resistance to varroa. He looked deeper into this varroa resistance to discover that varroa simply were not reproducing successfully in the bees he was selectively breeding. That's when he coined the mnemonic SMR and that's when he started publishing his findings. It's a classic case of selection for a desired trait, same as has been done since Mendel first wrote the book. > Taking antibodies in the immunity system as an example, Apples and oranges. > ... regarding the D.N.A sequence for gene code protecting against Varroa. > i.e. the mechanism is there (mutation) but not the actual code ready and > waiting. No. Whatever is the combination of genes to exhibit SMR was already there in some degree. Selective breeding strengthened that trait. Peter, you're totally leaving out coincidence. It may be that A.m. has a combination of genes that developed to help the fly faster and jump higher. AND it could possible and coincidently be that the genetic combination that helps bees fly faster and jump higher also causes SMR. There has never been a cause and effect claimed in SMR, there has just been observation that something's there and whatever it is can be heritable across generation. Period. But don't let this stop you from speculating. Aaron Morris - thinking better bees through better breeding! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:59:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow In-Reply-To: <200107311558.f6VFwN809915@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tim Sterrett wrote: > Do the new beekeepers know that many of us old timers have these things >and use them when they serve a purpose? >Tim I've had my bees since April 14th. I'd never kept bees prior to that date, so I'm a very new beekeeper. I never open my hive without bee jacket, veil, long pants, heavy gloves, shoes and socks. I'm also careful about the color of pants I wear. Light colors seem to excite the bees less, so I do take these precautions. During the summer, I swelter inside my beejacket, but the minor discomfort of being hot far outweighs the discomfort of being stung. Besides, I make sure I take lots of water with me. I have not been stung, yet. That is not to say that I will not be stung, though. I believe that one takes all the safety precautions necessary when working with stinging insects. Regardless of the line of bees you are using, (Carniolans, Buckfasts, etc.), I've been shown first hand that the mood of the bees can change from day to day, even during the flow. I know eventually, I'm going to get that first sting, but I see no reason to make it any easier for the bees to sting me. Many of the "old-timers" in my association don't use much more than a veil when they work their hives. I hear their stories of how this hive or that hive was mean, and they also ran for the protective gear. They don't go to their hives without at least having the gear handy. They know that I dress out fully, but they don't think I'm stupid. I just don't want to be stung. My last bee sting from a honeybee was 41 years ago, on the bottom of my foot in the arch while I was at the municipal swimming pool. I had a swollen foot for a week, and could hardly walk on it. I don't relish having another episode like that again. Nobody has told me I shouldn't be working bees, and I find them fascinating. George Imirie has told me many new beekeepers tend to anthropomorphize their bees, regarding them as pets. I must admit that I to tend to talk to them while I'm working the hive, more to keep myself calm than to even imagine they could even hear me. Some of my behavior may seem ridiculous to those beekeepers who've been doing it for years without much more than a veil. I'm not being judgmental about whether or not one should wear protective gear every time they go into a hive, that's a personal choice. I believe in wearing safety glasses when I'm working with my power tools, and look at working bees as just another activity that requires care. Thanks for reading this rather wordy reply. Joe Clark President, Tidewater Beekeepers Association Portsmouth, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:00:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Bee photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/01 1:41:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG writes: << If you can find a camera with a good zoom lens, choose it over the optical zoom which almost any photo editing program can do on your computer. The more your viewfinder is filled with the subject you're interested in recording, the better your edited and finished photos will be.>> I think Richard means to use optical zoom in preference to digital zoom. Digital zoom is simply cropping, which, as he says, can be better done with editing software. Optical zoom is using the lens as a telephoto. And his advice to get close is right on. Most amateur photographers tend to shoot from too far away. As much as possible, do the cropping with the camera, as you shoot. It's pretty disappointing to have a shot that looks good, but after you crop it properly is now too coarse to be a really good shot. Especially when all you had to do to make it a great shot was to move closer. <> Optical format is the longest lasting; most likely it will outlast us; whether we will still have the devices to read it is the question, as technology moves on. But burning CD disks is the most permanent storage we have available for home use today. Fortunately its the cheapest storage as well. So get your good shots on a CD ASAP. I don't think film has any advantage over a CD, unless it is strictly black and white. I have 70 year old B & W negatives that are still in excellent shape. This is based strictly on silver, which will last until the base itself gets too brittle to stand up. But color photos less than half that age are pretty far gone. They are based on dyes, which will fade. The marvelous thing is that there are now computer programs that can fairly well resurrect the colors, given the information on the negative. It is important to either save your master copy, unedited, or a TIF version of the same. JPG (which is becoming the most common format for digital cameras) and other photo formats compress the image to save file space. However this causes some loss of information as well. If you open a JPG file and work on it a little with an image editor, then save it, you will lose some info. If you do this more than once, the image will begin to look blocky, because each time you save it, you will lose more information. You'll see this first in areas with similar tone, such as the sky. Once the info is lost, it cannot be regained. So always save the original master or a TIF copy, and do your editing from it each time, but don't save it in such a way as to overwrite the master. That's one of the advantages of writing a copy of the original to a CD-R disc, which cannot be overwritten by mistake. Dave Green Gallery of Flowers and Visitors: http://pollinator.com/gallery/gallery.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:43:57 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi George and other Tide Water bee club memebers and Bee-L subscribers. I aplaud your letter to the list indicating all the precuations that you take when working your bees. Mike and Linda Cambell and C. E. Harris of your bee club will tell you that when I work my bees I never wear anything but my glasses (because I can't see without them) but I always tell audiences when I speak to groups, especially young/prosective beekeepers to wear full protective gear. It takes many years of active work around bees to learn what to do or not do. I am comfortable working my bees with little or no protective gear. However I always determine before hand what kind of bees I am working. Presently, I am working with bees in Spain that will attack approacing people within 50 feet from the hive. On the other hand I have some (also in Spain) with which I use nothing but a little smoke without a single sting. In essence, to enjoy our bees, it is essential to know them. Wearing protective gear is one those things that will allow us to get to know them and eventually learn those things that please us most. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: GM Bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Just a comment on the issue of resistance to Varroa. As Aaron points out nicely John Harbo has shown that the SMR trait is fairly widely distributed in Apis m populations and can be selected for. Peter asks why and the answer is we don't know at present but maybe the work of Anderson regarding Varroa populations has some implications here. He found that only very few Varroa mite populations were able to switch from Apis cerana to A m and even those that made the jump were not fully able to exploit A.m. When a parasite jumps to a new host, it is not always a good fit in either direction ( host or parasite) and whatever the mechanism underlying the SMR trait is it involves a critical function needed by varroa for reproduction. So it could just be a case of the parasite not being fully compatible with the new host. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108010545.f715jZ808503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wrong. the DIGITAL zoom is what you can do on the computer. When done on the camera, it is the same thing - you lose resolution. Optical zoom uses a real lens, just like the 35mm cameras - you'll only find it on the higher end systems, but it is well worth it. I prefer true SLR also, not a viewfinder (unless you like those family shots with the heads and edges cut off when you get a cousin to snap one of you at a reunion. Most viewfinders are difficult to properly determine what you will actually get on close-up shots. I never use the LCD to take shots - too hard to see what you are doing, especially outside, plus it drains your battery excessively. If you want to do hi-res or blown up large prints, don't go below the 2 megapixel size. A diskette is inadequate to hold this level of detail. And I would avoid the ones that write directly to a mini-CD. Besides the high cost of this media, they are painfully slow. When taking pictures of moving insects, even today's "fast" digital cameras seem too slow betwen shots, unless you have a special mode that takes several shots in a row, buffering in memory before being written to the internal sorage media. Good advice on the media. You don't have to conver the pic to film for a good print, tho. there are several companies that will do that for you on the net and kodak is bringing out kiosks that will allow this to be done at your local mall. All home-created CD's (optical lasts longer, but standards are less likely to last) should be re-burned periodically. The time between depends on the quality of the media. The cheap stuff - maybe every year. The "best" may last 10-20 years (or longer, one vendor predicts 75 years), but you have no way of knowing until the cd fails. Always make two, just in case. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Yarnell Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 3:19 PM If you can find a camera with a good zoom lens, choose it over the optical zoom which almost any photo editing program can do on your computer. The more your viewfinder is filled with the subject you're interested in recording, the better your edited and finished photos will be. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:56:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/01 10:21:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Blane.White@STATE.MN.US writes: << Just a comment on the issue of resistance to Varroa. As Aaron points out nicely John Harbo has shown that the SMR trait is fairly widely distributed in Apis m populations and can be selected for. Peter asks why and the answer is we don't know at present but maybe the work of Anderson regarding Varroa populations has some implications here. He found that only very few Varroa mite populations were able to switch from Apis cerana to A m and even those that made the jump were not fully able to exploit A.m. When a parasite jumps to a new host, it is not always a good fit in either direction ( host or parasite) and whatever the mechanism underlying the SMR trait is it involves a critical function needed by varroa for reproduction. So it could just be a case of the parasite not being fully compatible with the new host. >> I'm convinced varroa resistance or weaker varroas are getting common around coastal SC. I'm finding more honeybees than I've seen in years. Yesterday I discovered the source of some of these bees, when I found that a local guy has kept bees for 40 years. I know him, and had no inkling that he had bees. He's got five hives at the present. I asked him about varroa treatment and he just looked totally blank. He keeps bees mostly because his father and grandfather kept bees, and he's an avid gardener. He doesn't have contact with other beekeepers and doesn't buy queens. Here is a survivor, whether by luck or good beekeeping or whatever. Almost all the old time beekeepers are gone.... Hmmm....I wonder if I should set up some bait hives around his place next spring.... On a recent trip thru some of the Midwest and northeast (USA and Ontario, Canada), I did not see anywhere near the same levels of honeybees as around here. There were many gaps where there were basically NO honeybees, so I think most of what I saw was kept (and probably treated) bees. Honeybees were really scarce in Indiana, southwestern Michigan, southwestern Ontario, and parts of Pennsylvania. We found some honeybees in eastern Kentucky, southeastern MI, and a lot in the Niagara Peninsula of Ontario, upstate NY. I wanted to get a feel for the overall status of honeybees in the East. I stopped at clover patches everywhere, also checking knapweed, milkweed, catalpa, thistle, and many other plants. You know it is really weird to see literally acreages of sweet clover on a beautiful day, without a single honeybee in it! Good thing there are some other pollinators, or the plants would not reseed at all. We stayed with family and friends most of the time. When we felt they were ready to throw us out, we moved on, so the visits were mostly a day or two... Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:29:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi David, We found some honeybees in eastern Kentucky, > southeastern MI, and a lot in the Niagara Peninsula of Ontario, upstate NY. The bees you saw, were they of caucasian descent? Or possibly A.m.m.? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 11:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dann Purvis Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) In-Reply-To: <200108011457.f71Evj819124@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > From: "David L. Green" > I'm convinced varroa resistance or weaker varroas are getting common > around coastal SC. I'm finding more honeybees than I've seen in years. > Yesterday I discovered the source of some of these bees, when I found that a > local guy has kept bees for 40 years. I know him, and had no inkling that he > had bees. He's got five hives at the present. I asked him about varroa > treatment and he just looked totally blank. I found something similar with a guy, about 70 years young, that had about 20 hives (he calls them Gums) 20 years ago. He is down to one. He thought the "Weevils" (wax moths) had killed them all. He too, had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about his treatment program. Also, he was sure that the hive was never dead and repopulated ever, and especially during the last few years. I talked him into letting me have his queen. I am on the fourth generation of this line. From the start this queen and her first generation queens hygienically tested superior to all my other lines. All my lines pretty close, now. I am interested in seeing how the three SMR queens from Glenn will compare. Call it luck-call it what you like. I just know it is working. Take care, Dann Purvis Purvis Bros. North Georgia Mountain Queen Producers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:10:18 PDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: QUB Subject: Re: GM Bees 2 Comments: cc: j.a.p.earle@qub.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hi all, To bee or not to bee ............transgenic........that's the question (sorry I couldnt resist) Some conclusions so far, it is thought that enough genes exist in the present gene pool and selective breeding will provide all our needs - perhaps but there is some feeling that some genes we want (re varroa) may not exist. As highlighted by Peter, if selection experiments fail do we wait and let nature take its course and continue to select (ie natural mutation to produce resistance) how long? or open th GM box a little bit. To start playing with genes to add specific traits - not enough is known about the bee genome to do this. Mechanisms of resistance are likely to involve many genes. To even think of identifying these, probably by gene array technology, would cost a Mega fortune in time and money. I dont think the bee industry would ever sponsor something like this. But then, parts of the bee genome have been sequenced (Yes - I know a very very small amount) and could be regarded, in theory, as the first steps for obtaining information towards understanding bee genetics and producing a GM bee. (perhaps in the very very very distant future) Robert highlighted the fact that inserting genes can have unknown effects - I totally agree. The process of microinjection of transgenes gives rise to random integration of the transgene with the genomic DNA and the effects of this will be totally unknown, it could be leathal, be expressed or have no detectable effect. Expression could give the desired effect or impar some other function. Unfortunately my C57's tell me this every day! No-one mentioned anything about realeasing such a bee should it ever be made It is interesting that no-one has admitted that they are attempting any transgenic expts in the bee. It would not surprize me if someone somewhere in the world was trying to introduce a chromophore such as GFP ........... WHY ? ..........why indeed, as a first step in proving that GM bees could be produced (Pandoras box again) Do we need to be working on GM bees in the near future ? The concensus points towards NO not even likely. Phil PS I'm off on my hols again, I look forward to seeing how the discussion continues, especially the SMR stuff. Have to get my supers extracted ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: GM Bees 2 In-Reply-To: <200108011627.f71GRR821815@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I remember back in college, I took a "science and ethics" class, and one of the possible GM scenarios we discussed was that of a bee that was modified to produce a valuable drug or enzme. The substance would end up in the honey, which could be purified and refined. Pure conjecture at the time, but I wouldn't be suprised if somebody is working on something like this somewhere. Ellen in Michigan QUB wrote: It is interesting that no-one has admitted that they are attempting any transgenic expts in the bee. It would not surprize me if someone somewhere in the world was trying to introduce a chromophore such as GFP ........... WHY ? ..........why indeed, as a first step in proving that GM bees could be produced (Pandoras box again) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:49:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) In-Reply-To: <200108011606.f71G6t821187@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In TN, I recently picked up an old hive from a person that had just purchased a house. A previous owner had had bees there with his neighbor. The neighbor said no-one had messed with them for at least two years. Only one hive remained - two brood boxes, three supers, all stacked up, completely propolized together (still can't get the top cover off the top box), many frames starting to disintegrate. But, the queen was laying the most solid combs of brood I've ever seen, about 96% of each deep frame, with brood in both deeps and one super. The inspector went through the entire thing with me. No sign of any disease, nor of any varroa. There were no medications still in the hive - no idea if any had been used previously. I've moved them here (what fun, the boxes are dry rotting and there are holes everywhere, which all had to be taped up, after splitting the mess into two piles for transport). I plan to split the brood and let them raise some new queens. However, they are not gentle - they attacked the home owner when he approached (in the flight path - they had only a small opening through to their wooded location). After being here for about a month, they are a little calmer, but still don't like being approached much (could be because I've been working on the upper supers of honey, trying to get them to rob them down into a new super.. hehe). Hopefully, their varroa resistance will not be lost, but they will calm down somewhat if crossed with the drones in my other hives (a real mix, some of everything). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:57:32 -0700 Reply-To: Richard Yarnell Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108011422.f71EM3817654@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I bridled at first when I read Karen's response. She should have put an exclamation point on "Wrong!" I obviously meant: "If you can find a camera with a good zoom lens, choose it over the _digital_ zoom which almost any photo editing program can do on your computer." Depending on budget, I would still suggest choosing a high ratio zoom lens over a 2 mega pixel chip. (If you can find both and afford it, by all means, do.) Assume that by using a 14x lens you can just fill the frame of an 850K chip with your subject - a bee will do. All of the frame is devoted to the image of the bee. At the same distance using a 3x telephoto and a 2 meg chip, only 428K pixels will be devoted to the same subject after cropping. There is twice as much data in the image of the bee captured with the first system. Obviously, if you can count on being close enough to fill the frame with your intended subject, the finer the chip the better. Both the screen and the viewfinder on the Mavica are through the lens. On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, Karen Oland wrote: > Wrong. the DIGITAL zoom is what you can do on the computer.... I prefer > true SLR also, not a viewfinder.... > If you want to do hi-res or blown up large prints, don't go below > the 2 megapixel size.... --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:16:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: SMR bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Aaron's descrption of the SMR is close to the way I understand *what* we really don't fully understand *yet* ( and may never). To understand any problem the problem needs to be closely looked at. Denis Anderson and John Harbo have taken a closer look at our varroa problem than most researchers. It is almost funny now to look at pictures of varroa in old magazines and see obvious varroa D. labeled varroa J. Once pointed out the difference is very obvious because of the different shapes. My favorite is a frontal picture of a varroa J. and the rear varroa D. To find SMR John Harbo had to remove brood and remove larvae and count the number of varroa, those which reproduced, those which didn't and those imature. Most beekeepers and queen breeders simply do not have the time for such precise measurements. Although SMR traits exist in most bees finding those bees in another matter. The adds claim 100% SMR in their queens. How is the average beekeeper going to verify SMR? The adds say even open mated will *improve* in varroa resistance. How could they not BUT enough to quit using chemicals? How about later generations open mated? Most queen breeders in the south have not got remote mating yards capable of assuring correct matings back to the other SMR lines. Dr. Harbo says not to worry. I and my close friend of "Bell Hill Honey" are trying to keep our SMR lines pure. In my opinion all the *open mated* talk is simply talk to try and help get beekeepers to try to incorporate the SMR trait into their bees. If I am on the chemical treadmill then why would I need to add the SMR trait? I said the same about Buckfast bees . If you are going to treat your bees with menthol or grease patties why do you need to switch to a tracheal mite resistant bee? The SMR makes sense. I wish maybe it didn't. Switching to SMR means switching for me to a different type of bee. Carniolan instead of Italian. The linage of these bees is basically unknown. They were chosen for the SMR project because of the amount of SMR they shown in tests. We are putting a lot of faith in the SMR project to raise the SMR stocks instead of our proven lines. I personally do not believe the SMR queens are 100% varroa non reproduction as advertised. Nor do I believe that open mated queens with the population will be able to survive without chemical treatments. I do believe (like Aaron) enough to invest my time and money to see for myself. So far I have taken 24 35mm pictures of our project. They are being developed and I should get those back Saturday. I plan to write a few articles about our project and send those to my friend Kim Flottum of *Bee Culture*. Those reading can then see what problems we ecountered and success we have had. I am pleased to anounce our SMR queens arrived in excellent condition (on July Fourth), introduced and we have raised two rounds of offspring from the yellow line. My line is the red line and I moved her into a single hive body last week and she is on four frames of brood and laying a excellent pattern. We had eggs laid not at the bottom of the cell at first with both queens but then they settled down. We don't understand why but happened only at first and hasn't happened since. I passed on the Russian queens for a couple of reasons. Are any bee-l listers running open mated Russian queens without chemicals and if so what kind of mite load have they got now? Are they producing as advertised? Will they need treatment to survive the coming winter? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen & All, I removed a swarm from a building a year ago. I posted the removal on bee-L. The owner swore the bees had been in the building four years. I am using those bees for drones for the first batch of SMR queens. I must caution all beekeepers that it is almost impossible to verify how long the bees have went untreated. Hives die from varroa and new swarms arrive without many owners (not beekeepers) noticing. I was leary of my swarm and said so in my post last year because I found both black and yellow bees. A year later I am still seeing both black & yellow bees in the hive. They are carrying a very low mite load for this time of year. Much lower than my production hives so maybe they are survivors. Good luck with yours Karen! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108011901.f71J11826272@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, sorry if you took offense, it is hard to transmit nuance of tone without resorting to emoticons. I didn't use an exclamation point, as that would have driven the message stronger (imho) that you were incorrect. Yes, the optical zoom is much better than just the high number of pixels. We have a professional (retired) photographere here in our local computer club. When the Olympus C-2500 came out (2 meg, but good lens), he sold all of his 35 mm equipment. He claims if you take the pics at high res, the resolution at 8x10 prints is not detectible in difference from 35mm. Of course, wall size or billboards require a little better resolution. Our previous camera was a 1.1 megapixel and it's highest resolution was not as good as the mid-resolution on this one. There is a significant difference in printed quality between the two. On screen, the difference is harder to see without blowing up the pictures -- of course, if you use one for wallpaper, it is significantly larger than the original size, but resolution for on-screen viewing is fairly low. I ended up with the same camera, despite a 10x optical zoom from the same company (plus 2.5 digital zoom, which I didn't care about), due to two things: 1) this camera can be ran manually, so you can override the computer when it does things you don't want to do. 2) there are two macro settings built in, allowing me to get within just a few inches of a subject, zoom in and fill the frame entirely with one bee or flower. Most of the others on the market cannot focus under 12-18 inches and those that accept additional lenses are at the far high end of the price scale. We considered the Mavica, along with one that recorded directly to CD-R, but decided against both. The biggest drawback for us was in the time to record a picture. However, for many usages, this would not be a problem. I think the Mavica is a fine camera; it's just a shame that Sony tied it to the 3.5" diskette format. At the same size, they could have used the LS-120 technology and been way ahead of the storage curve. Now, you can get smart media up to 512MB in size or use the multi-gigabyte microdrives in the high-end systems. The other big drawback is the limitation to 640x480 for storing non-compressed images -- this is due to the storage medium. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:52:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Barry, that was exactly the report I had in mind and ABJ printed my criticism in a later issue. Their study showed that nearly all of the absorbed PDB had evaporated into the air from the wax in 11 days. Further, they reported that 91% (as I recall) of the honey samples they surveyed had less than 11 parts per billlion (with a "b") of PDB. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 20:50:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) In-Reply-To: <200108011605.f71G5T821158@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > I talked him into letting me have his queen. I am on the fourth generation > of this line. From the start this queen and her first generation queens > hygienically tested superior to all my other lines. All my lines pretty > close, now. I am interested in seeing how the three SMR queens from Glenn > will compare. > > Call it luck-call it what you like. I just know it is working. Hi Dan - I would call it nature doing what nature does best. If feral bees are such a prized item for their natural ability to survive varroa, then what does this say about our current efforts to breed better queens? I think we end up propping up an artificial system that quickly falls apart when one stops buying the queens. Why do we always look to some other place or some other breeder for "better" queens? Is there something wrong with the ones our own bees raise? I think not. In fact, I'd rather have bees that have figured out for themselves what is best for my local area than some outside queen being shipped from miles away. Give me the local swarm, that's the kind of bee I want. I also find it interesting that many are jumping right in line for their SMR queens without 'critical analysis', which has been attributed to those interested in employing the 4.9 cell size, even when so much is unknown about how and if this trait will work in the long run in real life situations. How will secondary infections be tolerated? Who knows. Lots of speculation but until many give it a try, we won't know. Too bad we can't have more of these beekeepers willing to try other methods that are working on a much larger scale. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:47:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I has some success photographing butterflies without disturbing them by placing between 1 and 3 extension rings between the body of the camera and a long (200mm) lens. With a tripod about 10 feet from the subject I could get a butterfly to fill the lens and therefore the photo. There was a very small depth of focus - about from front to back of the butterfly. You might like to try this with bees. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Central Louisiana has been getting a population upsurge of bees for the last couple of years. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: Wanted: information on policies or initiatives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear all, >From time to time I avail myself of the immense wealth of knowledge that= the members of this list collectively hold. I think the last time was= about toxicity of basswood trees. I come knocking on your doors again with= another request for assistance. (Except that with email I guess I have= sneaked past your front doors and am already deep inside your houses and= offices! So, I come knocking on your in boxes instead.) The Xerces Society is participating in the North American Pollinator= Protection Campaign and through one of the campaign's working groups is= trying to prepare an overview of what protection exists for pollinators.= To quote from a draft document, the object of our task is: "To produce a source book or toolbox of innovative and successful models of= policies and initiatives used to encourage pollinator conservation= projects or, at least, to reduce damage to existing pollinator= populations. These policies and initiatives could include, but are not= limited to, planning and development regulations, fiscal incentives (tax= breaks, grant schemes, etc.), legislation to protect wildlife or habitats,= organizational policies, and pesticide use regulations." Can anyone tell me about schemes in the areas where you live or work (I= know that many commercial beekeepers have operations that cover many= states)? I already know about the EPA bee labeling scheme for pesticides,= but think that there must be some more policies around to encourage= conservation and protection of pollinators. Are there tax incentives for= pollination businesses? I am also interested in schemes in other countries. If we can find examples= of good practise outside the U.S. then there may be some chance that these= could be used as models for what could be done here. For example, in= Britain there are recovery plans prepared for a dozen or so endangered bee= species (these are on the web at www.ukbap.org.uk) and there is also a= pilot project to incorporate red clover and other good bumble bee plants= into the approved seed mixes for part of the Countryside Stewardship= Scheme that provides grants to farmers for conservation projects. There= must be other schemes in other countries that are worth looking at. Any pointers or information you can give me would be excellent. Either= respond via the list or directly to me at mdshepherd@xerces.org. Thanks in= advance for the time and thought put into your replies. Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Program and Publications The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org _____________________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website: http://www.xerces.org/ _____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:48:09 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Yes, peculation reigns! But to say: "Stating that A. m. can't possible have genetic resistance to V.d. because the former was never exposed to the later is a faulty assertion." Following with: "It could possible be that whatever the gene combination that expresses SMR was there to help A.m. combat something in it's natural environment. It could be any number of things. Whatever is the reason we probably will never know." - is is definite -yes or no, and could is possible! I suggest that ability to protect against V.j.(d.) or any other attack on the bee is unlikely to be result of a previous experience from some event that has nothing to do with V.j.(d.) or at least a circumstance where similar molecules of protection are involved. The latter part of the sentence being important. It is possible that bees have come across pressure from other species with similar or identical molecules to those that aid V.j.(d.) in its predation on A.m. and these are "residual" in the present A.m gene pattern. These traits may then may be selected for in "our" battle against circumstances that harm our bee colonies. Or, as suggested, it is a trait that was gained from an earlier type of bee. Agreed, chance is always there, and the gene code has to start somewhere - but surely the greater percentage on traits are due to environmental pressure, with the result that traits are due to exposure to a problem! I am not disagreeing with the possible presence of SMR in A.m. - but what I am trying to stress is where does this come from! There is most probably no direct answer to this question, but it allows for speculation due to its existence that it came from an earlier bee type which has conferred other genetic traits on to its offspring that may give us an insight into other latent traits that might not be apparent but useful. Hence the strong argument for in depth study of other bee types and their protection. Also, it lends itself to the idea that there is a base to the idea of G.M. Peter - thinking being devil's advocate can lead to tight corners! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:05:38 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: La Marne Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to the behaviour of bees and protective clothing. My attitude is that you dress as you wish and in a way that makes you feel secure. Experience will show that certain items are required and others can be got rid of - this comes about from an increased ability to handle bees quicker when necessary and also being able to read what is happening in the hive before this develop to a level where circumstances become difficult to control. The question of how the general public see beekeeping enters the equation after a while. Being dressed up in a way to repel a full frontal attack from thousands of bees when it is not really necessary does not inspire great confidence from Mr. Average. Evenso, our bees (due to multiple reasons) cannot be manipulated without a veil for long (two or three minutes) unless you don't mind a dozen up the nose! - traditional French black bees that work well on the nectar flows that present themselves in our area. So, I can be found with litres of sweat in wellies harvesting after Rape (Canola), and in T-shirt with slippers and shorts when adding supers. It was very strange for me to work bees in Nova Scotia this spring and not need a veil or gloves when splitting hives - but there was definitely no need - apart from the odd one that tried to investigate the soft palate via the nasal passage. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 18:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Ralston Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108011306.f71D61815298@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 1 Aug 2001, David L. Green wrote: > Optical format is the longest lasting; most likely it will outlast > us; whether we will still have the devices to read it is the > question, as technology moves on. But burning CD disks is the most > permanent storage we have available for home use today. Fortunately > its the cheapest storage as well. So get your good shots on a CD > ASAP. The chance that CD-R media will degrade before a better archive storage medium becomes available (and we have to convert all of our archives) is relatively slim. Most CD-R manufacturers claim a shelf life of between 50 and 100 years for CD-R media under typical office conditions (controlled heat and humidity). I'd guess that it'll take no more than 10 years (if that) for CD-R to cease to be a preferred archive storage medium. Note the "typical office conditions" part, though. If you store your CD-Rs in a trunk in your (alternatively) sweltering and freezing attic, you might be in for a nasty surprise when you take them down in a few years and try to read them. > It is important to either save your master copy, unedited, or a TIF > version of the same. JPG (which is becoming the most common format > for digital cameras) and other photo formats compress the image to > save file space. However this causes some loss of information as > well. A more detailed explanation of JPEG can be found here: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/jpeg-faq/part1/ Excerpting the JPEG FAQ isn't appropriate for this list, but I would recommend that anyone who deals with JPEG (i.e., images produced by digital cameras) read the FAQ. (In particular, pay attention to question #10; if all you want to do is crop the picture your digital camera produced, you can do it by a multiple of the JPEG block size without introducing any further loss *if* your image editing software knows how to do it.) > So always save the original master or a TIF copy, and do your > editing from it each time, but don't save it in such a way as to > overwrite the master. That's one of the advantages of writing a > copy of the original to a CD-R disc, which cannot be overwritten by > mistake. Repeatedly reading from a CD-R may shorten its shelf life. (The jury still seems to be out on this one.) At the minimum, increased handling increased the chance of accidental damage (dropping it, flexing it, etc.). Therefore, it's probably a good idea to read from discs you consider to be archives as little as possible once you've burned them. -- James Ralston Pittsburgh, PA, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:07:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Zachary Huang Subject: A new method for mite control: zapping them! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit News Release New device to kill varroa mites invented by MSU entomologist Michigan State University and the Department of Entomology are pleased to announce a new invention to combat a dreaded honey bee pest. The Varroa mite, Varroa destructor (formerly Varroa jacobsoni) is a serious pest of honey bees in Michigan and worldwide. Honey bees play a crucial role in agriculture, pollinating many fruits and vegetables and seed crops valued at about $15 billion per year in the US. Varroa mites kill bee colonies within 1-2 years if colonies are left untreated. Various chemicals have been used to control the mites, but unfortunately chemicals can potentially cause harm to bees and could also get into honey if not used carefully. The mite pest can also develop resistance to chemicals. Apistan‚ the main pesticide used against the mite, lost its effectiveness in many states within the past few years because of resistance developed in mites. In addition to the losses to commercial beekeepers, almost all of our wild honey bee colonies have been killed, eliminating their valuable contributions to pollination of crops important to Michigan, including apples, cherries, blueberries and pickling cucumbers. Varroa mites are attracted to drone larval cells and lay their eggs in these cells. Once honey bee workers seal the immature drone brood cells, mites suck blood from the drone larvae and reproduce in a safe environment where few chemicals can penetrate to reach the mites. The so-called "drone trapping comb" method entails removing the sealed drone brood combs and putting them into a freezer to kill the mites, together with the drone larvae, which are not important to the colony anyway. This method requires no chemicals and has been used extensively by small beekeepers in Europe but the method is very labor-intensive; it is not practical for beekeepers with more than a few dozen colonies, and few beekeepers in the US use it. Dr. Zachary Huang invented the new device and has named it "the Spartan Mitezapper". According to Dr. Huang the invention will be a great tool in helping beekeepers control the mites. Dr. Huang's Mitezapper is composed of electrical resistance elements implanted in the drone combs. Beekeepers simply need to hook up the two electrical terminals located outside the hive to a 12 volt battery for 2-3 minutes. The electrical resistant elements in the comb heat and kill both the mites and the drone pupae. It is even possible to regulate the temperature to kill mites only and not to harm the drone larvae, if drone production is desired. A patent application has been filed by Michigan State University. Dr. Huang only started to study Varroa mite recently. Dr. Huang's mite-related research has been supported by the GREEEN program at MSU, Michigan Agricultural Experimental Station,Michigan Department of Agriculture, and US Department of Agriculture. More information is available at: http://www.mitezapper.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 00:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax In-Reply-To: <200108020310.f723As810318@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Their study showed that nearly all of the absorbed PDB had > evaporated into the air from the wax in 11 days. Nearly, but not all. You also have to assume that beekeepers are allowing their combs to air out for 11 days before putting them to use. The question you raised, "why should we expect it later to transfer those substances to honey?", is answered in this article. "PDCB is a highly volatile and lipophilic (easily soluble in fat and wax) substance. Beeswax can take up this material and a part of it may later migrate into honey. Honey analyses from Germany and Austria show that PDCB residues in honey are not rare. This applies to native as well as imported honeys." Sure, there are things that can be done to minimize the contamination to honey, but analyses is showing that it's getting into honey. > Further, they reported that > 91% (as I recall) of the honey samples they surveyed had less than 11 parts > per billlion (with a "b") of PDB. Dan After rereading the article, I find no references to parts per billion, only million. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:02:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Morton Organization: Central Science Laboratory Subject: Re: Bee Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, A point about close up bee photography that I think has not yet been raised in this discussion is the need for good lighting. Even with the best macro lens and film combination, in practice most close-up photographs of bees taken with natural light are likely to be somewhat disappointing. This is because at the at the magnifications (strictly, 'reproduction ratios') used to get a bee to fill the field of view, the depth of field is very small indeed. In other words, only a small band in front of and behind the bee is sharp. In many cases, it will be difficult to get even the whole bee in focus at once. The way around this is to use a very small aperture (high F-number) in the lens. However, this obviously reduces the amount of light reaching the film. You can't simply compensate for this by just choosing a slower shutter speed, as movements of the bee and camera are bound to cause loss of sharpness. Equally choosing a very fast film speed tends not to help either, as fast films are much grainier, and again cause loss of detail. To cut a very long story short, I now use flash lighting for almost all bee photography regardless of the natural light levels. The method I have found works best for me is to use a pair of very small flash-guns on either side of the camera lens mounted on an L-shaped bracket attached to the underside of the camera body. At a typical working distance of 6 inches from the subject (using a 55 mm Nikon macro lens), these give a very intense, even and very natural looking lighting that allow me to stop-down the lens down to around F32 giving excellent depth of field. The extremely short duration of the flash also completely freezes any movement of the bee, even when in flight. Getting the correct exposure for this sort of work can be tricky unless your camera/flash combination is very sophisticated and can do it all for you. The simple method I have used is to calibrate the set-up by taking test shots at various combinations of reproduction-ratio and lens-aperture. I now have a sticker on the back of one of the flash-guns that reminds me what aperture to use at different working distances. >From time to time, I try other methods, but keep coming back to this one as it works so well. James -- ___________________________________________________________________________ James Morton South-Eastern Regional Bee Inspector Central Science Laboratory National Bee Unit Tel/fax: 020 8571 6450 Mobile: 07719 924 418 E-mail: j.morton@csl.gov.uk CSL website: http://www.csl.gov.uk National Bee Unit website: http://www.csl.gov.uk/prodserv/cons/bee/ ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:57:54 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lucinda Sewell Subject: Brood Patterns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Karen Olands' remark about slabs of brood has me wondering: how often does the whole frame seal like that? Once a season? Twice with no swarming? It seems to me that with my small (14 X 9 inch approx) broodframes in England I only really see this once a year on any given frame: either on an expanding colony or on a month hived swarm (same thing I suppose) otherwise it's the mixed frame with unsealed brood inside, or outside sealed. Are there any online photos of brood patterns? Can one gauge colony age/stage this way? Do USA colonies with multiple broodboxes have queen heading to totally empty frames only, or laying in cleaned out cells as soon as she is able? John Sewell " In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities" Suzuki. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 07:05:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Bee Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to add one item that has not been mentioned on the photographic process. Use a white cermaic tile as background to allow you to crop out the item for digtal stacking of pictures. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:57:38 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Bee Photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all To add to what James Morton said... Two small flashguns is a good idea as some shadow will occur, I used a ringflash many years ago which mounted on the filter thread, giving almost shadowless illumination. A minor disadvantage of this was that the colour rendition of the flash caused a golden tinge to all pictures (the flash was originally designed for some sort of medical photography). I tried all sorts of filters to correct this but none produced pleasing results. My final solution was a narrow strip of blue cellophane cut from a toffee wrapper, simply taped across part of the ringflash diffuser. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:25:15 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry > Give me the local swarm, that's the kind of bee I > want. What you say is fine, IF the swarm comes from a pool of bees that is large and homogeonous and well adapted to the area. It seems to me that we work somewhat differently on each side of the Atlantic. If we were to repesent the genes of each race of honeybee by painted wooden bricks, say red for Carnica, Blue Caucasion, Yellow Italian... etc. Then it seems to me that US breeders are trying to plug individual brightly coloured bricks together to synthesize a bee that incorporates these characters. OK in the short term, but it rapidly degenerates and we have no lasting effect. We have that problem in UK with exotically bred queens and all sorts of random imports. However we try to establish a uniformly coloured bee that is made up of bricks of many shades of the same primary colour. That is not to say that the odd brick will not show up of a different colour, but we can cull those "sports" unless they have some useful traits in which case further breeding will blend that colour and shift the "mean" colour of the group. In the UK this breeding work is carried out against a background of a huge amount of non indiginous stock ( I would suggest that 50% of British bees are non native). Hopefully the pressures of varroa and the secondary diseases associated with it will bear more heavily on the non native that our original native strains and thus help to redress the balance. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:58:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Barry Birkey wrote: "I also find it interesting that many are jumping right in line for their SMR queens without 'critical analysis'" I'm jot jumping on Barry, as others have also questioned whether SMR is a real phenomenon or yet another hope that may end up falling apart under scrutiny. I have been following John Harbo's work since the mid-90s, because what he was doing/proposing/speculating/INVESTIGATING back then seemed to me to be quite plausible. It was an acceptable (to me) hypothesis that varroa resistance could be out there and that selective breeding could bring the resistance to the forefront. Harbo feels he has done this IN HIS AREA (Louisiana) and now he's anxious to test what has worked in his area in other geographies. Tom Glenn (in Northern California) claims that queens he's breeding and Instrumentally Inseminating in Northern California are also exhibiting the SMR trait. I don't know if Tom has collected empirical data to the extent that John has and actually I would be doubtful he has, given that he has only recently gotten involved in the SMR project. I would consider Tom's testimony to be more anecdotal than empirical, although he keeps close ties with the research community and I'm sure he's been following Harbo's work quite closely. Regardless, what Tom is doing is taking the next step in John's work, which is getting the SMR trait massively distributed to see if what has been exhibited in La. holds up in vastly different geographical areas. Barry wonders why so many are anxious to jump on the SMR band wagon unquestioningly, while the very same folks are so skeptical of 4.9 cell size. My guess is the KISS principle. Requeening with a line of bees that may prove to be up to 100% resistant to Varroa d. is far simpler than retrogressing an entire operation to 4.9 cells. I'm willing to jump right in to the SMR experiment. $50 and I'm in. I can do that. Retrogressing my entire operation? I'll wait until enough people have done that and found it to be the solution to the problem before I make the investment. And I'm not throwing stones at 4.9! I hope it's a solution and await the results of those doing the work. I'm left wondering how much testimony it will take to convince me. > Who knows. Lots of speculation but until many give it a try, we won't know. That's exactly what's going on. MANY are giving it a try to see if the claims hold up. > Too bad we can't have more of these beekeepers willing to try other methods that are working > on a much larger scale. Too bad 4.9 requires so much work to get there. Aaron Morris - thinking perhaps I'm being fat and lazy. PS: An amusing aside is the there is an effort to get people pronouncing SMR as SMaRt. I wonder if that will be successful or if SMR will forever be pronounced SMuR. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:41:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GM Bees 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellen Anglin wrote: > > I remember back in college, I took a "science and ethics" class, and one of the possible GM scenarios we discussed was that of a bee that was modified to produce a valuable drug or enzme. The substance would end up in the honey, which could be purified and refined. Pure conjecture at the time, but I wouldn't be suprised if somebody is working on something like this somewhere. Too difficult with the bee but easier with a plant. And they are doing it right now. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 07:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, I feel the need to answer several of these questions but do not want to compare people trying 4.9mm foundation with those trying SMR. It is like comparing apples to oranges. My biggest concern with going to 4.9mm cell size has ALWAYS been the labor/cost factor. Plus if the small hive beetle continues to spread ALL wax combs are food for small hive beetles. Plastic can be salvaged. > > I would call it nature doing what nature does best. If feral bees are such a > prized item for their natural ability to survive varroa, then what does this > say about our current efforts to breed better queens? Feral bees are prized for their rarity. FACT : A very low percent of feral bess have survived the mites. Those feral bees many report seeing are most likely swarms from our hives. If they come from treated hives they could last two years. Plus there is no way of knowing all the hives in a given area. New beekeepers buy packages through the mail and start with bees every year. Why do we always look to some other place or some other > breeder for "better" queens? Is there something wrong with the ones our own bees raise? I think not. It is a long proven fact bees tend to raise queens from to old a larvae and when eggs are given to large starter colonies by queen breeders the queens are larger and better performers. My point is if the beekeeper is grafting and using starter colonies and raising his queens I agree with Barry but if the beekeeper is just sitting a frame of eggs aside then I disagree. > I also find it interesting that many are jumping right in line for their SMR > queens without 'critical analysis', which has been attributed to those > interested in employing the 4.9 cell size, even when so much is unknown > about how and if this trait will work in the long run in real life > situations. I agree with Barry here. I wonder myself at the total acceptance without question. I believe because the bees are coming from the USDA instead of beekeepers many are willing to follow. The data I have studied on SMR which has not been made public backs up the SMR data at the Baton Rouge site. These bees are resistant to varroa and the resistant is improving in some cases to around 100%. The big unknown is as Barry says: "so much is unknown about how and if this trait will work in the long run in real life situations". Dr. Harbo's view (in my opinion) is that we saturate or bees with SMR queens and the trait will become common in all U.S. bees and slowly will emerge bees resistant to varroa. I have no doubt about the SMR of the queens coming from Dr. Harbo. My question is (like Barry's) will the trait remain as Dr. Harbo says. After looking at the data I personally am getting *on board*. The *train ride* timetable is two years. Maybe longer if I decide to treat the SMR queens hives this fall. Putting the new SMR queens into hives with a high mite load in fall is not good. I feel I need to reduce the mite load and let all the older eggs/brood emerge and clean the mites off the older bees (not SMR daughters) going into this winter. The SMR used next spring is a different story. If the mite load is low they will never be treated for the required two years. The mite load testing will have to be done on a regular basis. Quite a bit extra work instead of simply dropping a strip in. >How will secondary infections be tolerated? Who knows. Not much has been published on Bee-L from the United Kingdom on the work of Dr. Norman Carrick. Dr. Carrick and I correspond through direct email and he has sent results from his virus experiments for me to look at which have not been made public but will be presented in South Africa. Not to give away his findings I won't go into detail but in short he believes mellifera can easily support varroa if not for the secondary infections. In my opinion with SMR and IPM controls such as 4.9mm foundation which greatly reduce varroa infestations you see a proportionate reduction in secondary infections. I believe our researchers could give the exact percent of reduction. The Lusbys claims of secondary infection reductions is simply from the lower varroa load in my opinion (and others). Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon wrote: > what I am trying to stress is where does this come from! > There is most probably no direct answer to this question, but it allows > for speculation due to its existence that it came from an earlier bee > type which has conferred other genetic traits on to its offspring that > may give us an insight into other latent traits that might not be > apparent but useful. > Hence the strong argument for in depth study of other bee types and > their protection. Also, it lends itself to the idea that there is a base > to the idea of G.M. We had a long discussion some time back on the BeeL about bees mutating and developing Varroa resistance. I recall an excellent post, which I cannot find, by someone well versed in biology who said we should not be talking about mutation when we were really looking at selection. The genes were already there (as Peter noted) and we should encourage that trait in our bees. When we bring in GM, then we are looking at "mutation", since we are changing the genetic makeup of the bee. One of the interesting findings of the human gnome project is the huge number of "useless genes" they found, which seem to have no apparent function but were inserted sometime for some reason. I am sure the same proportional number of "useless" genes exist in the honeybee. They may have nothing to do with selection today, but they did do something way back when. And I am sure, in the millions of years the bee has been around, there were other parasites like varroa that have come and gone. And might even still be here, but are now accommodated or have changed to be able to live with the bee. I am not a biologist, but logic points to SMR already being a bee trait which can be selected for, since that is what has happened. Especially since it seems to have appeared in many places with untreated bees. Who knows what other traits we may need to select for in the future? My bet is that our bees have encountered them or something similar before. And here, I respectfully disagree with Peter. There is no need for GM. That is too laden with danger compared to working with something the bees probable already possess. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:58:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bill, if there is little contact between the honey and the wax to permit the wax to "clean" the honey, there is litttle contact to permit the honey to take up contaminants, to "clean", the wax. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Logan VanLeigh Subject: Re: A new method for mite control: zapping them! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zachary Huang wrote: > > News Release > {SNIP} The electrical resistant elements in the comb heat and kill both > the mites and the drone pupae. It is even possible to regulate the > temperature to kill mites only and not to harm the drone larvae, if drone > production is desired. My concern is that the added heat would damage nearby brood. If the claim of killing mites without damaging drone larvae is true, that solves that problem. Logan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:21:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Vos Subject: bee photography. To those concerned. This may help. I am an iridologist and used to take pictures of human eyes and PIGEON eyes. I used a simple reflex camera but with a so-called "BALGE" mounted to it which held the lens. I am familiar with the word balge here in Europe, but could not find the word it in the dictionary. It's a kind of black sleeve which fold in and out on a rail as required, same as being used on the old fashioned first cameras in the 19th century. Any good photoshop should be able to order one, at least I had no trouble getting one. And with just a flashlight on top of the camera will give clear full seize pictures of even ants if you want to. I used to study the eyes of homer pigeons for several associations of p-keepers, so why can't it do the same for B-keepers? BEEFOX. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 08:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stephen Augustine Subject: Re: SMR Queens (was Honeybee population recovery) In-Reply-To: <200108021350.f72Dos821636@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aaron, Barry, and others, It was rather interesting to see (in "The Monk and the Honeybee") Br. Adam tromp around the world investigating numerous little pockets of bees that developed in isolation to see if he could include any of their traits into his "super bee". I thought then that local adaptation is a very good thing. Without the diversity I would guess that any species is headed for catastrophe. In that context, even if SMR queens prove to supress 100% Varroa d./j. reproduction does this still mean that they are good all-around bees? That is, do they incorporate traits for tracheal mite resistance, low swarming, hygienic behaviour, etc., etc.? I was also wondering if the selective breeding for Varroa resistance may actually leave the SMR bee wide open to some other susceptibility. So, if we were all to jump on the SMR bandwagon could that be similar to putting all our eggs in one basket? I don't know, I'm just asking. Stephen Augustine Bees By The Bay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:19:19 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: GM Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bees overall do not get very good press. For example the media's treatment of the africanized honeybee. The backlash of genetically modified honeybees just might harm beekeeping more than it could possibly help. Frankenbees. I can see the hives burning and the ordinances being drafted against keeping bees in my mind. AHB was just ordinary cross breeding. Imagine a flying insect with bad traits being "manufactured" Starlink bees? No thanks. I wouldn't want my hives and assets siezed if a patented gene showed up in my colonies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:33:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: EAS at MMA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm leaving shortly making my way towards the Massachusetts Maritime Academy for "Bees by the Sea!" (Eastern Apicultural Society 2001 Conference). I hope BEE-L members will look me up if they're attending. I'm the fat bearded guy with the shaved head. I'll be on the canal cruise Wednesday and in the beeyard Thursday afternoon. It's always nice to meet BEE-L members in person and I look forward to seeing all who attend at MMA! Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:37:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: A common thread? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I enjoyed dinner the other evening with my friend Bill Mares. Bill occasionally contributes to BEE-L and is working on a book to bring the plight of the honeybee to public attention. During the course of conversation Bill asked me if I could name an attribute common to most beekeepers. I must admit I was stumped! I replied that one of the things that amazes me about beekeeping is how it attracts people from all walks of life: butchers, bakers, candle stick makers, doctors, lawyers, indian chiefs, and obviously, beekeepers. But I was not able to pick a common thread. Perhaps it's the love of nature or the desire to walk on the wild side or some such thing, but I had not an answer. Opinions? Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:51:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A common thread? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/2/01 11:47:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, AMorris@UAMAIL.ALBANY.EDU writes: > During the course of conversation Bill asked me if I could name an attribute > common to most beekeepers Unbridled Curiosity ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dan hendricks wrote: > > Bill, if there is little contact between the honey and the wax to permit the wax to "clean" the honey, there is litttle contact to permit the honey to take up contaminants, to "clean", the wax. Dan I assume I am the Bill this is addressed to. The contaminants do not have to come from the wax. In fact, in all probability they come from the bees and are mechanically introduced into the honey just by the bee entering the cell with its honey load. In the case of contact pesticides, they are on the bee and will be spread to whatever the bee comes in contact with, including pollen, honey and wax. Which is the primary point. The contaminant first has to be introduced into the hive. Then it has to make its way to the cell. Then we can start talking about all the relationships between wax, honey and surface area. Since the bee comes in more contact with the wax than honey, all things being equal, there will be more in the wax than honey. Add greater solubility for the wax, and the weight shifts even more toward it. The original issue was does the wax clean the honey and it would appear not to, based on Barry's comments. One question I have is what honey are we talking about? If it is not brood box honey, but that being sold commercially, then there is a major problem here, especially if it is ppm and not ppb. I assume it is brood box honey, which would be more apt to be contaminated. Maybe Barry can clear this up. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:26:18 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks. There has been a lot of comments regarding this thread. I think that a lot of it can be easily understood if more people would read the original ABJ article quated by Barry Birkey. Incidentally, Barry has posted the article on his beesource.com page. I suggest that reading the referenced article would allow better understanding and clarify many of the questions being asked. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:22:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) In-Reply-To: <200108021315.f72DFm820745@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bob - > Feral bees are prized for their rarity. > FACT : A very low percent of feral bess have survived the mites. Those feral > bees many report seeing are most likely swarms from our hives. If they come > from treated hives they could last two years. Plus there is no way of > knowing all the hives in a given area. New beekeepers buy packages through > the mail and start with bees every year. I agree here with what you are saying. I'm talking mainly about those colonies that people pick up from places that are known to be old established hives. I guess I used poor verbiage and should have used feral instead of swarms. But even a first or second year swarm is that much more adjusted to the local make up/gene pool than a newly purchased queen from who knows where. I just don't like the idea that for me to maintain a certain characteristic in my bees I have to continue to buy a queen from someone. If I stop, so does that characteristic so I feel like I'm on the dole. Personally I'd rather work with my local material and do selective breeding for traits I see naturally occurring. If people are still finding these 'old' colonies that have been on their own, does this not show us that if given the chance, bees will fight and adjust to what works naturally? It seems to me that there is enough progress made by these bees toward survivorship that we ought to be taking time to study these bees and try to understand why this is. Is it how they breed in an uncontrolled environment? Is it due to physical changes such as cell size? Etc, etc. >> Why do we always look to some other place or some other >> breeder for "better" queens? Is there something wrong with the ones our >> own bees raise? I think not. > > It is a long proven fact bees tend to raise queens from to old a larvae and > when eggs are given to large starter colonies by queen breeders the queens > are larger and better performers. So are you saying that we can propagate better bees in a better way than they can do for themselves? I guess it depends on what we consider 'better performers'. Size of queens(larger in this case) has no proven advantage that I'm aware of. Good performance has to be weighed against all the negative aspects. Can't have one without the other. What are circumstances surrounding these bees that tend to raise 'bad' queens? Can I read some of these proven facts somewhere? I'm sure you have done more reading than I as I can't readily recall such reports. I know hearing from other beekeepers that there are more than just a few that have gone completely away from buying queens to letting their own bees raise the queens. If I remember right, John Iannuzzi mentioned here on the list that he has been doing this for over 35 years. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:46:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: bee photography. In-Reply-To: <200108021502.f72F22824226@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Aug 2001, John Vos wrote: > I used a simple > reflex camera but with a so-called "BALGE" mounted to it which held the > lens. I am familiar with the word balge > here in Europe, but could not find the word it in the dictionary. I didn't have much luck with dictionaries, either, but found that Googling on various combinations yields a concordance between German "balge" and English "bellows." I didn't actually find "balge" in use in a photo context, but did find both in a couple of forges! I think, at least in the US, that shopping for a bellows would get you better results. Susan -- snielsen@orednet.org |"The only reason for being a bee that I Shambles Workshops |know of is making honey."-- Winnie the Pooh Beavercreek, Oregon | -- Purveyors of fine honey -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:19:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Debra Sharpe Subject: Eliminating mites w/o chemicals In-Reply-To: <200108020401.f7241W812426@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been keeping bees a short time (this spring) and have seen various discussions about non-chemical treatments for varroa mites. I have searched the archives and the web with no luck, looking for a list of them. Can anyone point me in the right direction? The ones I have heard of were: using drone comb and freezing the frame, powdered sugar, and ventilated bottom boards. I didn't catch all the exact details for each process and if someone could expand I would appreciate it. Also what is the recommended treatment for tracheal mites; is there a non-chemical approach? I also would like someone to possibly comment on my observations. I installed an "in hive" nectar feeder that sits above my super but below my telescoping cover so my bees can only get to it form the inside. I have noticed since I have installed this my bees seem to be much tamer. Before I was feeding them with ziplock Baggies that I put hundreds of needle holes in. I laid these in Tupperware on top of the hive on the outside. I also had an entrance feeder. I decided to get this new feeder because I was constantly refilling the bottles and bags and I had 5 -10 yellow jackets always around trying to get a free meal. My bees were always on the defensive and I didn't know if the yellow jackets or their desire to guard the food source was causing this behavior. Anyway they are much less aggressive now and I can refill on the inside with less resistance than I could when it was on the outside! Do bees hate yellow jackets this much? I know the hive can be aggressive when a YJ nest is nearby and I constantly look for this (my hive is in a wooded lot and I have many YJ) but I didn't think a few of them would upset them so much. I kill the YJs every chance I get and was wondering if anyone knew of a trap I could use for them. It seems since they are constantly ending up in my humming bird feeders (and my bees do not), I could design a trap/feeder with holes large enough for the yellow jackets but too small for the honey bees to get in and if placed near the hive I could get rid of them. Although I have fewer now than before the YJs still attack and kill all the young bees that are learning to fly when they hit the ground in front of the hive. I hope I don't tax the collective wisdom too much but I have another question. How often should I be opening up the hive to check on them, and when I do should I remove the top (deep body) brood chamber to check on the one below? Some local bee keepers tell me every week, but I have also read it disturbs your bees and sets them back too much if you do this. Thanks so much for any information. Newbee in Al ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:11:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: A new method for mite control: zapping them! In-Reply-To: <200108021451.f72Epo823793@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Zachary gave a wonderful talk about this method at last springs Michigan Beekeepers Association meeting.. In the slides he showed, he ran wires horizontally in the foundation so that it is centered at the back of each cell. There is a critical window of temperature at which the varroa are killed, but the brood is not harmed (Like having a fever that wipes out an infection.) There is a second window of temperature whre the varroa and brood were both killed, but the comb was not damaged. I don't recall the temperatures he cited, but it all looked possible in theory. At the time of this talk, one of the obstacles to be overcome was applying just enough current to reach the desired window, (Either killing just the varroa, or killing varroa and Drone brood.) without ending up too far over, and damaging brood or melting comb, or under, and not killing the varroa. He talked about calculating resistance and stuff, but my knowledge of electrical properties is too skimpy for me to know how great a problem this actually is. It does look very promising! If the cost can be kept down, and the wires incorporated into a plastic foundation or all in one frame/ foundation, this could be a very useful tool! Between SMR bees, Hygenic bees, and this, I think we may be able to keep bees without miticides again before too long. (At Least I hope so!) Ellen in Michigan Logan VanLeigh wrote: Zachary Huang wrote: > > News Release > {SNIP} The electrical resistant elements in the comb heat and kill both > the mites and the drone pupae. It is even possible to regulate the > temperature to kill mites only and not to harm the drone larvae, if drone > production is desired. My concern is that the added heat would damage nearby brood. If the claim of killing mites without damaging drone larvae is true, that solves that problem. Logan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax In-Reply-To: <200108021638.f72Gc2T27323@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit URL please? the site is unmapped and has no search engine -----Original Message----- From: dr pedro p rodriguez Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 12:26 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Hi folks. There has been a lot of comments regarding this thread. I think that a lot of it can be easily understood if more people would read the original ABJ article quated by Barry Birkey. Incidentally, Barry has posted the article on his beesource.com page. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: A common thread? In-Reply-To: <200108021545.f72FjNT25755@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Patience, and Hard Headedness! Who else would put up with a creature that, in the view of most folks, "Bites the hand that feeds it" on a regular basis. Most people take stings personally, and hold a grudge for years. Ellen in Michigan Aaron Morris wrote: During the course of conversation Bill asked me if I could name an attribute common to most beekeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:45:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, dr rodriguez: Iodine is a poison but I eat it every day. Caffine, nicotine, cocaine, opium, mercury, lead, coumaphos, etc. all can be tolerated up to a point, What we need to do is to keep consumption below - well below! - the threshold of injury, considering also threats of combinations. Zero is not required. Insisting on zero denies us many useful materials. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:27:51 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Eliminating mites w/o chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ms. Shape Although you do not mention Food Grade Mineral Oil in your choice of non-chemical acaricides, I would like to suggest that you visit the following web page. www.beesource.com In this site you may be able to read about research with Food Grade Mineal Oil findings for the last 5 years. And yes, Food Grade Mineral Oil applied with a Burgess Propane Bug Killer (that is the real name of the machine) has been demonstrated to be effective against tracheal mites because the fog produced penetrates the trachea where the mites are located killing them. And by the way, it does not harm the bees when the mites die. I will be glad to answer your questions, should you still have some after reading the material on that site. You may contact me at: dronebee@jazzfree.com dronebee@pilot.infi.net Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:12:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: GM bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. According to an article in this month's 'Beekeepers' News', the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Foods here in the UK have recently got round to publishing advice given in February 1999 by the Advisory Committee on Novel Foods and Processes, which advised strongly against permitting Monsanto's GM cotton to be used here as it contains a gene for resistance to streptomycin and spectinomycin, and horizontal transfer could potentially lead to the appearance of antibiotic resistant gonorrhoea. If this is possible, then that seems to add weight to rumours of a gene terramycin resistance having possibly transferred into Paenobacillus larvae. I wish I had had that piece of information a few months ago; I was at a conference on GM (an annual get-together of scientists and theologians), and when I raised the terramycin issue, I was told dismissively that it was 'impossible'. Anything but, by the sound of it. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 17:56:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Eliminating mites w/o chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra writes: <> make a small hole in the lid of a jar, put some jam or fruit inside, and half fill it with water. The YJ's, assuming they act like British wasps, are attracted by the smell, enter the trap and drown. The bees aren't attracted. I don't know how effective this would be round hives, my parents used to use them in the kitchen when I was a kid, and they worked there. If the problem is YJ's entering the hives, you could try mesh floors and permanently reduced entrances. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 15:53:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax In-Reply-To: <200108021957.f72JvAT03841@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > URL please? http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/waxmoth.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 16:39:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: M D Lathan Subject: Myriad of Beginner-type questions... Dear B-listers' My two hives were started from nucs of Russo-hybrids this spring - they're doing very well recently 'cause I left them alone (vacation) the last 3 weeks. Still I wonder about many things: Hive #1 (in city) superceded the marked queen right away and for the life of me I cannot locate her replacement! Do I have to wait till next spring - when I assume the population will be much lower? [good hive, but I want to requeen because the bees are too touchy for the neighborhood] Hive #2 (country, lots of forage) swarmed a month ago-bottom of two brood boxes shows a nice laying pattern but the top brood box continues to show swarm cells??? Should I care? Hive #1 sits atop a slotted-rack - the bees don't build in that space, yet they keep filling the excluder with wax - how come? BTW - that hive is much more populous than the hive that swarmed FWIW. Hive #1 - everyday we see a few bees crawling on the ground away from the hive- mostly drones but occasionally a stunted-looking worker - trouble? I saw AFB scale for the first time at the Puget Sound association 'BEE- TOPIA' and it occurs to me I may have been wrong in choosing black plastic foundation for the brood boxes - Opinions? Hive #1 - here in Renton (Seattle) I am told that the main flow is over - so what is it that the bees are bringing in? My Bee-landlady wants to know what kind of forage she could plant for the bees to use after the main Blackberry/clover flow. I like my plastic frames except I find that almost a 3rd of them have spots of deep comb built on one frame with a shallow or empty spot on the adjacent frame. Can I just scrape the high side and let them try again? I have lots of problems with burr & bridge comb - do I understand that this goes away if you use boxes and frames from one manufacturer? Almost harvest-time, so-what's a good fall/winter medication schedule? Last Question - I have a good spot for expansion - how can you tell when you have ALMOST too many hives before you find that they are costing too much time and energy? Thanks for listening! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:17:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry, I just don't like the idea that for me to maintain a > certain characteristic in my bees I have to continue to buy a queen from > someone. Dr Harbo says the SMR trait passes to the bees and remains. I will report back in a couple years. We are using remote mating areas in our project for now. Personally I'd rather work with my local material and do selective > breeding for traits I see naturally occurring. The Baton Rouge bee lab site explains the SMR selection process. Myself and most queen breeders could select for the SMR trait ourselves but a huge amount of time is involved. > If people are still finding these 'old' colonies that have been on their > own, does this not show us that if given the chance, bees will fight and > adjust to what works naturally? All bees won't (in my opinion) BUT a very very small percentage has shown able to survive. The hive I used for my drones for the first round of SMR queens was the colony I removed last spring from a old building. They were said to have been in the building four years untreated. I have no way of knowing for sure as swarms prefer old deadouts and abandoned former hives. As I posted earlier on Bee-l I had to add honey in frames for the hive to survive last winter. They were still alive but were not able to produce honey for last winter. Mite load was low but they didn't grow and expand. It seems to me that there is enough progress made by these bees toward survivorship that we ought to be taking time to study these bees and try to understand why this is. SMR is the result of the study of many of these hives. Is it how they breed in an uncontrolled environment? I don't understand the question. All breeding is the same except for instrumental insemination. Dr Harbo has made progress with SMR mainly because of the use of II. Brother Adam had his best sucess when he started using II. Knowing the drone linege is a big plus in bee breeding. > Is it due to physical changes such as cell size? Dee says herself cell size is only a third of the system. I have always been of the opinion you would have to go smaller to the size varroa couldn't reproduce in for cell size to be the total solution. I brought this opinion up in the first discussion two springs ago and still have the same opinion. > >> Why do we always look to some other place or some other > >> breeder for "better" queens? Is there something wrong with the ones our > >> own bees raise? I think not. I use queen cells at times from very strong hives which are about to swarm and have had reasonable luck but the queens which are grafted, started in starter hives and put in finnisher hives are far superior in my opinion. Larvae not the right age does not make the perfect queen. Large queen cells is a good indicator but still one has no way of knowing if the right age larvae was used by the bees without grafting. Bob wrote: > > It is a long proven fact bees tend to raise queens from to old a larvae and > > when eggs are given to large starter colonies by queen breeders the queens are larger and better performers. Barry wrote: > So are you saying that we can propagate better bees in a better way than > they can do for themselves? In my opinion yes. By grafting yourself you asure the right age larvae was used, By using a stater hive you make sure enough bees of the right age are used to start the cells and finnally you make sure the right type hive finnishes the cells. I realize not every beekeeper wants to tackle grafting queens. Not a easy job. The reference to *large* is only something we notice when everything in queen rearing goes right. When things go wrong the queen cells and queens tend to be smaller than normal for the strain of bee you are working with. Perhaps I should have left the word *larger* out but *better performers* is true. About a thousand queens were raised from grated stock in Texas last spring. The above are observations from the process. > What are circumstances surrounding these bees that tend to raise 'bad' > queens? 1. queen cells raised form to old larvae produce inferior queens. Documented in most bee books. 2. queens raised by older worker bees instead of the right age nurse bees. Also cells tended by not enough nurse bees. Also documented in "Hive and the Honey Bee" and numerous other bee books. And also queen rearing books of which I own several. Can I read some of these proven facts somewhere? I'm sure you have > done more reading than I as I can't readily recall such reports. The above are standard text in most bee books. I have never had a beekeeper argue otherwise about the 2 above statements. Maybe I am about to? > I know hearing from other beekeepers that there are more than just a few >that have gone completely away from buying queens to letting their own >bees raise the queens. If I remember right, John Iannuzzi mentioned here on >the list that he has been doing this for over 35 years.> If letting his bees simply raise their own queens works for Jannuzzi then more power to him. I know of two commercial beekeepers which use Jannuzzi's method. One had a average of 26 pounds last year and the other had a 30 plus average. Most beekeepers would not believe my averages so I won't post them. Excellent queens do not cost. They pay in the long run !(also in most bee books!) Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 22:13:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: SMR Queens (was Honeybee population recovery) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Stephen & All, > In that context, even if SMR queens prove to supress 100% Varroa d./j. > reproduction does this still mean that they are good all-around bees? That > is, do they incorporate traits for tracheal mite resistance, low swarming, > hygienic behaviour, etc., etc.? I was also wondering if the selective > breeding for Varroa resistance may actually leave the SMR bee wide open to some other susceptibility. So, if we were all to jump on the SMR bandwagon could that be similar to putting all our eggs in one basket? I don't know, I'm just asking. Both Barry & I worry the same thing. We know very little about the lineage of the SMR queens. Mine seem to be Carniolans. Almost black. I am VERY happy with the bees I use now. Italians. They outproduce any bees I have ever worked with. It is hard for me to even replace one queen with a SMR queen but I know the day is coming when our chemicals are not going to work on varroa. If the SMR bees are the answer we are looking for then our bee breeders will selective breed from the SMR line for the traits you describe above. Excellent questions and fitting way for me to bow out of the discussion as I have added about all I can add for now. Time will answer Stephen's questions. Time will answer the 4.9mm cell size debate. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 06:58:22 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Brood Patterns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just finished making up my wintering nucs. I break up existing colonies into four frame nucs. Each nuc gets a frame or a frame and a half of brood. These parent colonies are in three deep brood chambers, and were nucs I overwintered last year. The queens were raised in July of 2000. Many of them had full "slabs" of brood, and have had since spring. I don't believe this is a indicator of the colonies stage, but rather the prolificness of the queen. These queens seem to maintain this brood nest as long as the conditions are right. Mike "Practice only on the days that you eat" Suzuki What insrument does your child play John? Lucinda Sewell wrote: > Hi > Karen Olands' remark about slabs of brood has me wondering: how often does > the whole frame seal like that? Once a season? Twice with no swarming? It > seems to me that with my small (14 X 9 inch approx) broodframes in England I > only really see this once a year on any given frame: > " In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities" Suzuki. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:08:48 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all This clip came from a recent post of Barry Birkey, but is a clip from somewhere else. > > It is a long proven fact bees tend to raise queens from to(o) old a larvae and > > when eggs are given to large starter colonies by queen breeders the queens > > are larger and better performers. The bees strategey in using the oldest possible larva is simply to reduce the time that they are without an egg layer. They "know" that they can supercede her with a "better quality version" later and will do so when conditions are stable again. Poor quality queens arise from poor quality practices. The most common of these is the American practice of "splitting" a hive into two with one half queenright and the other half then expected to raise a queen from what resources they have. The queenless portion is in the first place not in the mood or condition to do the job properly and will make every possible shortcut to regain an egg layer. Grafting larvae and raising queens is simple and enjoyable, the skills needed will be acquired in your first season... The resulting queens will be as good as any you can buy... BUT, and it is a big BUT, in subsequent seasons you will have to appraise and select for desireable properties and be prepared to cull any undesireable traits. One of the biggest errors made by beginning breeders is to breed from the colonies that gathered the "best" honey crop. I am not saying pick from unproductive colonies, but make your selections on ease of handling, docility, longevity, long foraging hours and other useful traits then re-select for honey yield in subsequent generations. Only a few generations need to go by and you will have a "local" strain that is partly adapted. After seven or eight years a homogeonous pool will develop with extra envigorating genes creeping in from the fringes of your area to provide fresh blood and enable continued selection. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:27:16 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I have found while working bees is that being hot and uncomfortable and overheated is far more bothersome than a few bee stings. A sting or two is painfull for a minute or so but being uncomfortable lasts the whole beekeeping workday. White painters overalls a light colored T shirt and a string tie veil to keep the bees out of my ears and nose seems to be enough. All of the other gear is in a box somewhere in case I get a nasty supersedeure. When you have to wade through nasty bees try your bee suit and sweat pants and a sweatshirt. It's very hot but it keeps you from getting a few hundred stings. I tend to dampen the sweats with cold water. Also a 50 lb onion sack over the veil and your shoulders helps keep them off of your neck. These are the things I learned when I was determined to requeen a hive so aggressive as to have bees completely cover the veil. I took about 25 stings despite the extra protection split the hive into 3 hives killed the queen and in the course of a week the bees killed the 3 new queens despite being introduced in a box with the sugar plug and nail hole. As a result I stacked all the boxes together and blew them full of sulfur smoke and sealed them up overnight. Sometimes my bees just won't read the same beekeeping literature as I do. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 13:50:34 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan and fellow Bee-L listers. We are reaching a point when WHOLESOMENESS of our food products is considered of out most importance, and it should be so. We must guard against foreign substances that may harm consumers if ingested in our foods. As food producers, as beekeepers are, we are responsible for the wholesomeness of the food we produce, hence we must comply with sanitary regulations applied to the trade. Governments are legislating in that direction and predictably there will be laws to that effect surfacing from day to day. Example: In the United Kingdom, and I may suggest, pretty soon in all the EC, the law is ZERO level for contaminants in honey. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:42:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax In-Reply-To: <200108030100.f7310IT12148@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For some toxins, zero is the correct amount. Specificially those which can cause cellular or genetic damage at any level of ingestion, and those that store in fat or other tissue and is never flushed out of the system (like lead - even minute levels cause lowering of brain functions). For others, low levels can be tolerated or actually produce beneficial effects, while high levels can be toxic (like vitamin A or iodine). In my opinion, toxins like coumaphos should not be permitted in food products, any more than added lead or DDT. -----Original Message----- From: dan hendricks Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 8:45 PM Hi, dr rodriguez: Iodine is a poison but I eat it every day. Caffine, nicotine, cocaine, opium, mercury, lead, coumaphos, etc. all can be tolerated up to a point, What we need to do is to keep consumption below - well below! - the threshold of injury, considering also threats of combinations. Zero is not required. Insisting on zero denies us many useful materials. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:33:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108020323.f723Nb811238@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Before trusting your CD-R media, read some of the research that has been done. Some of the very cheap brand media lasts for only 3-4 years. The 100 year claims have never been tested, but I would still go with one of those brands and make duplicates. This way, you don't have to worry as much that repeated reading might "wear out" the media, as has been suggested. Optical, of course is better. I've used it in the past and never had a problem with it. Never a dead piece of media. Wish I could say the same for JAZZ, ZIP, CD-R, tape or even Bernoullli media. But, optical is a pain: not used by many, hard to find media, expensive equipment, etc... So, for now, I use CD-R, name brand that claims to last a long time, and make duplicates, storing one set off-site (not a storage building, climate there can damage -- try a safe deposit box, shelf at your parents or kid's house, etc...). -----Original Message----- From: James Ralston Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 6:58 PM The chance that CD-R media will degrade before a better archive storage medium becomes available (and we have to convert all of our archives) is relatively slim. Most CD-R manufacturers claim a shelf life of between 50 and 100 years for CD-R media under typical office conditions (controlled heat and humidity). I'd guess that it'll take no more than 10 years (if that) for CD-R to cease to be a preferred archive storage medium. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:03:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dr pedro p rodriguez wrote: > Example: In the United Kingdom, and I may suggest, pretty soon in all the EC, the law is ZERO level for contaminants in honey. What is the definition of "contaminants" in the UK? Reason for the question is that there are several mite treatments that introduce chemicals in the hive that are found in honey, such as formic acid and, I beleive, oxalic acid. Even pollen could be considered a contaminant, depending on the definition. Or are we only talking specific pesticides as contaminants. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:02:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Honeybee population recovery (was: Re: GM Bees) Comments: To: Dave Cushman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dave & All, > The bees strategey in using the oldest possible larva is simply to reduce > the time that they are without an egg layer. They "know" that they can > supercede her with a "better quality version" later and will do so when > conditions are stable again. I believe Clarence Collison (Bee Culture "Do You Know")) placed the bees being able to replace the queen in a emergency at around 10 days using the oldest possible larvae. > One of the biggest errors made by beginning breeders is to breed from the > colonies that gathered the "best" honey crop. If you are a honey producer then you rate "honey production" very high in traits. If you are a pollinator then " pollination " might be the first choice. The bees chosen for the SMR were picked mainly because of their SMR abilities. All involved believed the rules needed to be broken to speed up the process. Selection could be done at a later date to improve the line. Selection for the traits Dave is talking about can be done by most beekeepers if they are so inclined at a later date. Locating and getting the SMR start ( analyze the larvae) is (in my opinion) best left to the experts. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:41:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/3/01 9:24:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dronebee@JAZZFREE.COM writes: > Example: In the United Kingdom, and I may suggest, pretty soon in all the EC, > the law is ZERO level for contaminants in honey. I suppose it will be determined by the method used to measure contaminants. Parts per million? Parts per billion? Parts per Quadrillion? As technology advances we have the ability to detect far smaller amounts and I would imagine that no honey on this planet could pass if the standard was detectable contaminant. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:31:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One problem in not getting stung and keeping bees is you are setting yourself up for possibly more problems than you would ever have in being stung from time to time. Beekeeper's families are more prone to allergic reactions if the beekeeper changes his beekeeping apparel in the house. If a beekeeper tries to avoid all stings, they are possibly setting themselves up for the same reaction. I stress the "possibly" since it is not a given that it will happen. Just that it is much more probable. I know a beekeeper who has a stronger reaction to stings than most. He has found that if he captures bees before the season and goes through several stings, during the season his reaction is what most of us experience. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:27:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > We are reaching a point when WHOLESOMENESS of our food products is considered of out most importance, and it should be so. We must guard against foreign substances that may harm consumers if ingested in our foods. As food producers, as beekeepers are, we are responsible for the wholesomeness of the food we produce, hence we must comply with sanitary regulations applied to the trade. Governments are legislating in that direction and predictably there will be laws to that effect surfacing from day to day. > Example: In the United Kingdom, and I may suggest, pretty soon in all the EC, the law is ZERO level for contaminants in honey. Sadly I seem to be the only person to present *the rest of the story *. Our legislators in the U.S. always really believe they can legislate away all problems. The amount of honey actually tested coming into the U.S. and the U.K. is so small and always will be contaminants will always be a problem. Many LEGAL preservatives added in foods are far worse than any contaminants talked about in PPb or PPM on Bee-L. Although many of the worlds people are waking up to the problems with the worlds food supply the solutions in my opinion will never make a dent in the problem. Education as to the problems works better than legislation. The human life span should be around 120 years. Why isn't it? In the U.S. our medical system treats the disease after the disease is in advance stages. The causes are never addressed. Preventive medicine is only practiced by a small percent of the population. Eleven pesticides banned in the U.S. are legal in Mexico. Produce crosses the border daily untested in all but less than 1%. Sadly the truth hurts. I do not buy store produce and I do not buy TV diners. I agree with everything Dr. R. said but felt I needed to show why in my opinion the problem will NEVER simply be legislated away. Implementation of large scale inspections is a better solution. Laws are ALREADY on the books to prevent most of the most serious violators. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 00:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Working Bees After the Flow In-Reply-To: <200108031544.f73FiWT01906@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I keep my beejacket and gloves in the shed, put them on out there and take them off out there. I do have to keep my pants on to get from the shed to the house since I don't want to shock the neighbors. (My pot belly does that well enough.) I try to ensure that there are no bees around me when I do take off my beejacket, and do inspect myself carefully before I head for the house. My wife is allergic to yellow jackets and bumblebees, but I don't know her reactions to honeybee stings. I fully expect to be stung from time to time, it's the nature of the hobby. I just don't believe that I need to make it any easier for the bees to sting me. If that means that some folks think I shouldn't be keeping bees if I don't want to get stung, I'd say that they're probably right in their opinion. My reasons for having the bees was for my wife's benefit, not for my own. That does NOT mean that I don't care, quite the opposite. I just don't feel like being the "Steve Irwin" of beekeepers. I don't intend this reply to be belligerent or offensive to anyone, but only to express my own reasons for handling my hive the way I do. I have traded correspondence with George Imrie, and will continue to do so, just as soon as I get my other computer working - that's where all the correspondence is at, George. Anyway, it's a beautiful day in Hampton Roads, Virginia (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Portsmouth, Chesapeake, and Suffolk). I hope you are all having as good a day. Best wishes to all, Joe Clark President, Tidewater Beekeepers Assn Portsmouth, VA At 09:31 AM 8/3/01 -0400, Bill Truesdale wrote: >Beekeeper's families are more prone to allergic reactions if the >beekeeper changes his beekeeping apparel in the house. If a beekeeper >tries to avoid all stings, they are possibly setting themselves up for >the same reaction. I stress the "possibly" since it is not a given that >it will happen. Just that it is much more probable. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:29:44 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Eliminating mites w/o chemicals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Debra. Dr. Dianna Sammataro demonstrated that keeping crisco patties in the hive 12 months out of the year would, by itself, reduce the population of tracheal mites to below the level of economic damage. Then Dr. Steve Sheppard demonstrated that inclusion of mint oils in the patties substantially increased their efficacy. Check out Bob Noel's website . Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:23:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Contaminants in wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dr. Rodriguez suggests that the ABJ article Barry has posted be studied. I urge the same thing. I contend you will discover that the authors drew incorrect conclusions from their data. First, after purposefully saturating (?) the wax with PDB, they observed that the PDB level dissipated to an equilibrium level in 8 days (not 11 as I had remembered) simply by ventilation. Then they did NOT report measuring any subsequent transfer of that remaining PBB to honey. In a completely different inquiry, they searched commercial samples of honey in Germany for PDB and found a completely insignificant percent had any detectable PDB. So much for the problem of PDB contamination of honey but you would never have noticed it you had merely read the way they presented their results. Dan --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:21:26 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Eliminating Mites without chemicals (and SMR bees) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Debra Sharpe asks about handling varroa without chemicals. I suppose that everything we put into a hive to combat varroa is a chemical of some description except using an open mesh floor, drone brood trapping and powdered sugar. This year, at the Beekeeping School at Gormanston in Ireland, we had a very interesting talk from the top man in Danish Beekeeping - A Jorgensen. About 96% of Danish beekeepers have been controlling mites without using Apistan, Bayvarol or Coumaphos since 1984. They use various other chemicals which do not contaminate the wax or the honey at all, or where the contamination is less than that caused by the 'harder' chemicals listed above. You can get full details by visiting www.biavl.dk Would not a combination of SMR bees and an open mesh floor be worth trying? It seems to me that Americans are fortunate in having access to SMR bees, as I see that they are now extensively advertised in The American Bee Journal. In this country, importation of bees is prohibited. How does one get started with SMR bees from scratch or is it a viable proposition? Any comments or advice would be appreciated. I might add that this year we had an American beekeeper visit us at Gormanston, a delightful young lady from Virginia named Diane. She was most impressed with the course and she promised us that she would tell American beekeepers about it. Of course Aaron Morris visited us a couple of years ago. Details of the course for 2002 will be published at www.irishbeekeeping.ie as soon as they are available. It will take place during the fourth week of July 2002. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:19:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: > > Before trusting your CD-R media, read some of the research that has been > done. http://www.informationweek.com/thisweek/story/IWK20010719S0003?section=opinion An informative artice on CDR as storage. Best I have seen and practical. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 19:02:08 +0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ainars Millers Subject: Re: A common thread? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are a lot of people with love of nature, but only few are beekeepers. Why so many people like fishing or hunting? It is a echo from deep history -many thousands of years, when honey was the only source of sweet. In my opinion all beekeepers do have genetic deffect :) Under favorable conditions these genes causes processes which are resulted in curiosity and satisfaction to be in touch with bees. With best regards from LATVIA, hoping that still after 10.000 years this gene will be not lost :), Ainars, ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 15:50:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael R Haggerty Subject: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK I hear that pollen good for you, but how do you eat it! I think it is the nastiest thing I have ever tasted. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 21:21:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Ride Share/Car Pool To EAS 2001? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone heading to EAS from the South? I am driving to EAS 2001 for the conference portion of the meeting. I am in Bedford VA, roughly 1/2 way between Roanoke and Lynchburg. Anyone else going who wants to split the gas expense and perhaps share the driving? I have a Volvo wagon, so there is enough room for 4 or 5 beekeepers and their luggage without crowding. We need not take my car, if someone else wants to take theirs. My plan was to leave Tuesday, arrive Tuesday night, and return the day after the conference ends. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com 540-493-5939 (cell phone) 540-587-2133 (pager ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 21:36:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Antique Bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, While paging through this week's copy of my Antique Week paper I came across the regular feature on old photographs. This week the photos were of bee yards from the turn of the century(not this one the last one) and nearly 2 pages of text on bees, beekeeping and the importance of bees. It is worth looking at if you can find the paper. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 17:01:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Working Bees After the Flow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe & All, Joe wrote: > I fully expect to be stung from time to time, it's the nature of the > hobby. Many people have taken up beekeeping thinking all the protective gear will prevent the occasional sting. A young fellow drove in the other day wanting to help remove honey supers. He said he didn't think he had ever been stung. Looks like we will be removing supers with a *Epi-Pen* in the truck just in case. I always worry until new beekeepers have received a sting and I can be sure they will not have a bad reaction. Years ago a person decided he wanted to keep bees. He ordered a hive & equipment from Sears. Put everything together, read all the beekeeping books at the library and ordered a package of bees. When the package arrived he took his equipment and the package to the largest beekeeper in the state to *install the package*. The beekeeper (wanting to help a new beekeeper) installed the package for him and screened the entrance. The beekeeper asked if the new beekeeper had ever been stung. The answer was no. He warned of a possible reaction but said those were rare. Use protective gear. When the new beekeeper went home and set out the new hive he didn't take the time to suit up. Luckily he was not alone. His wife was watching from the house. When he pulled the screen from the entrance the new beekeeper was stung on the neck. He didn't take the time to fire the smoker either. The new beekeeper went down and was having trouble breathing. His wife called 911 from the house. He was taken by ambulance to the ER and spent a couple days in the hospital. The old beekeeper picked up the new hive and bought his equipment. The new beekeeper never blamed the old beekeeper and I do not either. One sting with help around is my advice when considering beekeeping as a hobby or working in the bee yards. I had a helper once which went three days removing supers before he received a sting through his sweaty bee suit on his back. He ducked tape all possible bee entrance points. Boy did the sweat pour off him. I was relieved he only had slight swelling. For three days I had been looking at him every few minutes. Beekeeping help is in short supply these days so I have to baby the new help. Their first sting is a real eye opener (or closer). A reporter from *The Daily Star-Journal* (Warrensburg, MO.) came today to take pictures of me going through a hive for a story she is writing about me. For those in the newspapers area the story should run next week. We got her suited up in full gear. She was surprised at me not using anything but a smoker and a hive tool. Heat index 110 F. and actual temperature 97 F. I told her I would rather take the stings than suit up in the hottest part of the day. . I normally wear a veil but all beekeepers *look alike* in pictures with a veil on! I told the reporter about the National Honey Board T shirt which says. "American Beekeeper" with "Endangered Species" underneath and told her to use the caption in her story. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Thinking "Do as I say not as I do!" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 22:29:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200108042215.f74MF1811162@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mike, I'd say the best way would be in gelatin capsules, or maybe mix it in with your oatmeal in the morning. Honestly, I haven't got a better suggestion for you, but I don't believe you're supposed to eat it without mixing it with something or putting it in a capsule so you can swallow it but not have to taste it. I wouldn't know how you would get the gelatin capsules. With the Tylenol scare several years ago, they're probably hard to come by. Best wishes, Joe At 03:50 PM 8/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >OK I hear that pollen good for you, but how do you eat it! I think it is the >nastiest thing I have ever tasted. > >Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:32:31 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dr pedro p rodriguez Subject: Re: Pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks. Eating pollen is as easy as eating bread once you get used to it. However for the beginner, the best way to eat it without discomfort is mixing it with honey. That is the way honey bees eat it. It is called "bee bread." Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 10:15:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: pollen taste Mike asks about how to eat pollen as "it is the nastiest stuff I have ever tasted". Pollen that is bitter, and goes crunch when you eat it (some say it tastes like wheat cheks) has been improperly processed! In its natural state as brought to the hives by bees, pollen is quite sweet and tasty. Some part of that is because bees mix it with nectar so it can be compacted and will stay put in their pollen baskets. Because pollen has just about every vitamin known and is full of protein, it is very susceptible to attack by mold, fungus and even bacteria. Thus, it must be frozen to kill some, and some of the natural moisture removed to make it less attractive. Unfortunately, in their greed, most mass processors of pollen remove so much moisture (read..."nectar"...) that the pollen becomes bitter and crunchy! However, they then have 1-2 year shelf life at room temperature. In fact, I have never found pollen in a health food store that was properly processed! Most pollen in the US that is on store shelves is from China, where they over-dry it so it can be transported long distances and have a long shelf life. Buy your pollen from a local collector, and you will almost certainly get pollen that is sweet, moist, and properly processed. (and also pay considerably less than health food stores charge.) If you have trouble finding local pollen, contact me and I can probably help. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, manufacturer of comb honey equipment for beekeepers and Sundance pollen traps. http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd@rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 15:49:06 +0200 Reply-To: Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jorn Johanesson Subject: SV: Eliminating Mites without chemicals (and SMR bees) In-Reply-To: <200108042206.f74M6f810843@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This year, at the Beekeeping School at Gormanston in Ireland, we > had a very > interesting talk from the top man in Danish Beekeeping - A Jorgensen. > > About 96% of Danish beekeepers have been controlling mites without using > Apistan, Bayvarol or Coumaphos since 1984. They use various other > chemicals > which do not contaminate the wax or the honey at all, or where the > contamination is less than that caused by the 'harder' chemicals > listed above. > > You can get full details by visiting > > www.biavl.dk and for those who don't know there is an english traslation of a repport about using chemicals that are natural present in honey, in the combat of Varroa. It is in html , doc and pdf format at my site. Best regards Jorn Johanesson Multilingual software for beekeeping since 1997 hive note- queen breeding and handheld computer beekeeping software Updated 27-05-2001 Added grouping and colouring of hives + a lot more. all you need and a little more. being a little beekeeper or a big queen breeder free of charge up to 10 hives. Language added : Dutch, Pourtuguise, French home page = HTTP://apimo.dk e-mail Jorn_Johanesson@apimo.dk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Aggressive Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had 4 hives on a local farm where the farmer called to complain that his workers were being stung. It would appear this problem began just before I pulled supers off the hives, and continued after the wet extracted supers were replaced. I pulled the supers on a Wednesday, which was the first day I heard the complaint. I replaced the wet supers that evening, but the behavior continued. Approaching the bee yard I would get a group of at least a half dozen bees attempting to sting my bee suit, or buzzing about the veil. These bees would continue attacking as I retreated. The farm workers were stung much farther from the hives, about fifty yards or so. No signs of skunk, opossum, or raccoon damage. No animal scat, bee carcasses, or other evidence of critters. Of the 4 hives only one had significant group of bees standing on the bottom board entrance. When I put a gloved hand into the entrance of each hive, only this same hive showed an agressive response. Opening the hive covers elicited no differential response from any of the hives - bees did not "boil out". Early in the morning I moved this one suspect hive to a more remote bee yard. At noon later that day I returned to the original yard, where the remaining 3 hives are busy working pumpkins, I believe (lots of in and out activity, few guards). I was not challenged or approached by any bees, indicating that to my relief I had moved the right hive ( I did not need a veil). I expect to obtain a queen and requeen the hive as soon as I can. The hive is full of bees, who quickly boiled out after I unsealed the entrance after moving it. Any tips on requeening under these circumstances? /C.Crowell Hightstown, New Jersey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:45:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Todd D. Hardie" Subject: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have yards in areas where the bees make purple loosestrife honey, and this honey is even more appreciated in a dry year season as this one where yards not near the swamps and wet areas have not made any or much honey to date. In an ongoing effort to give credit to the work of the bees and local/regional honey, I am considering a label on each jar "purple loosestrife-wildflower) and inserts in these cases of honey. Purple loosestrife is very controversal as it crowds out native species of plants so I am trying to learn more about the plant before proceding with this labeling: 1) Do the visits by the bees to purple loosestrife increase its spread throughout the areas where it is now growing and increasing each season? 2) How does the purple loosestrife spread? The brochures from the garden club want us to call whenever we have a purple loosestrife plant - we could be on the telephone 24 hours a day around here. I am not advocating buying these plants from the nurseries or throwing seeds out of the truck as we drive from bee yard to bee yard. What I think is important in science, nature, and life is that the whole truth be presented - I never see any mention in the paper or these brochures of how important purple loosestrife is to honey bees and other pollinating insects. Surely this must help many plants and nature. Todd D. Hardie Honey Gardens Apiaries, Inc. Hinesburg, VT 05461 e-mail = todd@honeygardens.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:47:43 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Bee photography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the topic of bee photography, perhaps I should mention that the photo of the swarm in a window which was used on the cover of Bee Culture a few months ago was done with an Olympus D-460 Zoom 1.3 megapixel camera. I should perhaps also mention that although the above camera is useful for general purposes and simple and intuitive to use, I find it is not useful for photographing bugs at close range. Although it has a macro feature, I found that a bee in reasonable focus would fill only a small portion of a frame. I bought the Zoom camera after having a similar model without zoom and having noticed that I was always cropping away and discarding a large portion of the surface of most photos due to not having been able to get close enough to the subject. With the zoom, I can adjust the size of the subject in the viewfinder and make best use of the pixels I have. Although many emphasize the number of pixels and think it is the most important criterion in a purchase, I think the quality of those pixels and the optics of the camera are more important, as is ease of use. All digital cameras are not equal and some cameras give more realistic colour and tone depth than others. I find my previous camera had noticeably superior contrast and tone depth compared to the current one. There are web sites (I am away from home for a few days and do not have them handy) that show JPEGS of identical shots made with different cameras and the difference can be surprising. There are also sites that feature owner comments on various cameras and which compare features. Some even give suppliers and compare prices. Usually the reviews are quite in-depth and very candid. Since the reporters are people like you and me who want to say something about the camera they bought, they typically represent a number of different types of users and comments range from ecstatic to disappointed. Many reports are surprisingly detailed and insightful. Although the quality of the photos taken with most consumer level digital cameras are impressive when examined by themselves, in my experience and my opinion, they do not -- when compared side-by-side -- hold a candle to good shots taken on good film. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:53:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200108050311.f753B2819469@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gelatin capsules can be found at most health food stores- usually in the section where they sell herbs. There is also a handy little device that makes filing a dozen at a time easy. Several sizes are often available. I wouln't recommend filling capsules to sell, but they are avaialble for people who want to put their own food suppliment mixtures and herbs into an easily swallowed form. Ellen in Michigan "Joseph A. Clark" wrote: I wouldn't know how you would get the gelatin capsules. With the Tylenol scare several years ago, they're probably hard to come by. Best wishes, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:53:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Bee photography In-Reply-To: <200108042209.f74M9S810951@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another good source is the Roxio newsletter: https://www.roxio.com/en/jhtml/subscription/cdrnewsletter.jhtml On degradation of CD's: https://www.roxio.com/en/support/discs/dodiscsdegrade.html TDk specs a minimum70-year life, Kodak claims 217 average. But their testing on older CD's showed you should re-copy within 10 years of original creation, to be "safe", depending on your record/player combination and medium choice. Not only are you concerned with overall life of the CD, but also error rate in the recording and the speed at which burned. https://www.roxio.com/en/support/discs/discspeed.html is rather interesting in that regard. Music errors are any times undetectable. One bad bit or two in a picture also not (usually) a big deal. A single error in a program could result in it not functioning, or an archive file not being extractable, while an error in the directory for the disk renders the entire thing unreadable. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:51:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Todd D. Hardie" Subject: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have yards in areas where the bees make purple loosestrife honey, and this honey is even more appreciated in a dry year season as this one where yards not near the swamps and wet areas have not made any or much honey to date. In an ongoing effort to give credit to the work of the bees and local/regional honey, I am considering a label on each jar (purple loosestrife-wildflower) and inserts in these cases of honey. Purple loosestrife is very controversal as it crowds out native species of plants so I am trying to learn more about the plant before proceding with this labeling: 1) Do the visits by the bees to purple loosestrife increase its spread throughout the areas where it is now growing and increasing each season? 2) How does the purple loosestrife spread? The brochures from the garden club want us to call whenever we have a purple loosestrife plant - we could be on the telephone 24 hours a day around here. I am not advocating buying these plants from the nurseries or throwing seeds out of the truck as we drive from bee yard to bee yard. What I think is important in science, nature, and life is that the whole truth be presented - I never see any mention in the paper or these brochures of how important purple loosestrife is to honey bees and other pollinating insects. Surely this must help many plants and nature. Todd D. Hardie Honey Gardens Apiaries, Inc. Hinesburg, VT 05461 e-mail = todd@honeygardens.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 07:43:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bee photography (CDR life) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you have older equipment that does not have burn-proof, then you can get problems in CDR burns if you multitask during the burn, but most systems give perfect burns, if a little prudence is used. My 2X system never had a "coaster" (a failed burn). If you burn files, just set the system to verify the burn, and it will make sure all the 1's and 0's are as the original. But even if the disks last only ten years, by then we will have at least DVD's as the main medium for data and maybe crystals as the next technology. When I bought my Win 95 system, 3.5 floppies were the backup media. A year later it was 100 meg zip disks. Now it is 700 meg CDRs and soon, 2-5+ gig DVDs. That is in just six years, so do not worry about the CDR life. Since I do a lot of burning, mostly old records and tapes to CDR and backing up my system and programs, I end up with duplicates or outdated disks that I have no use for. I have found that they make a good deer repellent. Hang them on a length of fishing line from any horizontal bar ( like a fence line) so they can catch the breeze. If there are any lights in the area at night, the CDR catches the light and flashes. It seems to spook the deer that use to visit our flowers. Came through the spring with tulips and day lilies intact. Might also work with other varmints. You can use any CD-ROM, including all the free ones that AOL likes to send. They do not last ten years when in the sun and rain. Usually a couple of months. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 21:58:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: purple loosestrife Comments: cc: todd@HONEYGARDENS.COM In-Reply-To: <200108052320.f75NKs809794@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Purple loosestrife spreads by a couple of mechanisims, according to what I hear. It produces thousands of seeds per plant. I don't know how much better the seed set is with honeybee pollination, but they seem to still have plenty of seeds set without honeybees. I suspect that bees increase this set, as they do for most plants. I am not aware of any studies about seed set and pollination of this plant. I have also been told that they spread from the roots, (but this may be incorrect.) so pulling it up may be innefective unless all the roots are removed. There are several thoeries about it's introduction. One is that people brought it over as a garden plant. It is rather nice looking, and it can also bee used as a Dye plant to make a fairly deep colored black dye. (A good reason to rip up large quantities of the stuff.) A second theory is that the seeds were imported in ballast. The last theory I have heard is that the seeds were clinging in the wool of sheep, or shorn fleeces that were imported. The honey I get when the Purple Loosestrife blooms is not very popular, It has a "Bite" that is a bit strong for most people, and it is an odd color- almost the same color as "Mountain Dew" soda. My friends and customers prefer Star Thistle (Spotted Knapweed) overwhelmingly. Ellen In Michigan "Todd D. Hardie" wrote: 1) Do the visits by the bees to purple loosestrife increase its spread throughout the areas where it is now growing and increasing each season? 2) How does the purple loosestrife spread? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 23:18:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/5/01 3:55:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, todd@HONEYGARDENS.COM writes: > I never see any mention in the paper or these brochures of how > important purple loosestrife is to honey bees and other pollinating insects. > Surely this must help many plants and nature. > I have never seen mention about how important to native pollinators varroa mites are for ridding us of feral colonies of those foriegn imported honeybees. The big problem here is that purple loosestrife has no natural predators native to the US and can easily outcompete native plants that require a much narrower set of growing conditions. The shift to a monoculture of loosestrife in the wetlands puts even more pressure on an allready strained ecosystem. Keep in mind that everything is interconnected far beyond what we ever consider. Some progress has been made with control using Galerucella beetles. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:13:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Self spacing frames and automatic uncappers In-Reply-To: <200108031553.f73FrrT02250@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I spoke recently to somebody who avoided self spacing frames because he was intending one day to use an automatic uncapper. I have myself been using self spacing frames, and may one day wish to use an automatic uncapper. Do the shoulders on self spacing frames cause problems for automatic uncapping machines? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 13:39:03 -1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: walter patton Subject: Re: Pollen In-Reply-To: <200108052314.f75NE7809695@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aloha all and about this pollen talk here in Hawaii from January to May when the macadamia flowers are going the bees collect the most beautiful pollen I have ever seen. It is a golden color and very exciting to the taste. When I collect it I get it into a cold cooler chest in the field and then home for a hard freeze. When I eat it the stuff is outstanding and taste very powerful. I am convinced that it gives me a lot, and I mean a lot of special energy. I firmly believe the beekeeper is a blessed person if they take in the products of the honey bee hive. Well if anyone is coming to Hawaii give me a call and I'll mark your maps for you and introduce you to some of the best honey ever created by a honey bee. Walter Patton- Beekeeper - Owner 100 % Hawaii Honey-Hawaiian Honey House Hawaii Beekeepers Bed & Breakfast Inn # 1 Mukai Place, P.O.Box 430 Papaikou, Hawaii 96781 Ph Fax 1-808-964-5401 www.HawaiiHoney.Com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:58:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: wanted: Punic bee pics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I am looking for punic bee pics. They are the black bees native to N. = Africa. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: purple loosestrife I have a rather large perennial garden fairly close to a purple loosestrife marsh, and constantly have to battle the loosestrife to keep it out of my garden. (I have almost totally given up on the marsh.) When I first started the garden, I threw out all the tall weeds I could easily uproot, then rototilled the weedy ground well before planting. I can attest that the loosestrife grew back from every small piece of rootstock that was broken up by the tiller. It was a mess! Also, seedlings keep coming up that have blown in from the marsh. These seeds are extremely tiny and easily blown by the wind. One good thing I have learned, however. Loosestrife will not grow in dense shade, and a barrier of dense shrubs and trees will slow its spread. I am contemplating planting various swamp trees in my marsh to hopefully kill it there by shade. Obviously this is a long term project, and the trees will have to be well protected or they will be killed off before being large enough to have any effect. I have no confidence that the Galerucella beetles will make much of a dent in the huge stands of purple loosestrife that we now have. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:49:22 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lionel Evans Subject: Re: Self spacing frames and automatic uncappers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:16:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/6/01 9:10:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, anglinsbees@YAHOO.COM writes: > There are several thoeries about it's introduction. Many plants and insects arrived as dirt ballast in the holds of sailing vessals. Others in the straw and hay for shipments of livestock. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:58:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Pollen taste MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd writes: <> What's the best way to store small quantities for family use? The three I know of are freezing, drying (but I don't know how to control the amount of moisture extracted, and suspect that the equipment for doing this might be uneconomical for the quantities I have in mind) and mixing it with honey. Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:49:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Purple Loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108062236.f76MaU820861@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife is a former employee of the Illinois Natural History Survey (DNR) and is currently an employee of the Illinois EPA. Under the Illinois and Indiana Seagrant she conducted local outreach programs on Purple Loosestrife and its biological control. She informed me of the following URL. It is a good resource on the origins of this exotic species and various biological control methods. http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cbd/loosestrife/bcpl.html Ken Haller Arlington Heights, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 10:57:04 +0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: fakrurrozi syed Subject: bees eater MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i'm from malaysia, i have problem with migratory bird, hundreds of them eating my bees when they return to my box in everning. normally its happen in mei till august. any help!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:05:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Spagnolo Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been reading the comments about pollen with great interest. For = several years I collected pollen from 50 hives on the Kona side of = Hawaii. Depending on the rainfall, this area produced huge amounts of = pollen. When the Ekoa was blooming I could collect 2 lbs a week, per = hive of beautiful white pollen. In my opinion pollen is neither the = taste sensation some people are discribing nor the "bitter" chalk that = was also mentioned. Although I liked eating it, I was more fond of = selling it! We never dried any of our pollen. We ran it through a seed cleaner and = then picked it clean with tweezers. It went directly into the freezer. = We vaccuum sealed it and sold it to the local Hawaiian health food = stores for $12.95 a pound! It was a money-maker. Walter might want to contact Randall and see if he is using the traps I = sold him when I left Hawaii. Recently I bought 45 traps for $6.00 each here in Minnesota with the = intention of re-entering the pollen business. I will be pulling honey = and putting traps on this week and next. Hopefully I can recapture that = market here, but it seems unlikely that the harvest and the sales will = be the same in sparsely populated N. Minnesota, but we will see. Mark=20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 21:32:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: bees eater In-Reply-To: <200108070414.f774Et802853@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii fakrurrozi syed wrote he is having a problem with migratory birds eating his bees... Reply: I would advise making an enclosure for your hive with aviation screening. The bees will be able to fly through and forage, but the birds will not! Dee __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 22:53:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Pollen taste In-Reply-To: <200108062243.f76Mhg821034@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It was previously written: >Unfortunately, in their greed, most mass >processors of pollen remove so much moisture (read..."nectar"...) that the >pollen becomes bitter and crunchy! I have read this comment before, in other places, and I am not satisfied.. When nectar is evaporated, the sugar is left behind, concentrating it. (If it didn't, we wouldn't have honey!) Drying out something moistened with diluted honey, sugar, or nectar may indeed make it hard or crunchy, but the sugars shoud remain behind! Something else must be going on here besides drying, or over-dried pollen would be crunchy, but still sweet. Does that make sense? Am I expressing my question well? Any other explanation? Ellen in Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Aug 0101 06:25:23 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Purple Loosestrife I have been watching this non-native plant debate with interest for a few years now,first with yellow star thistle ,now with purple loosestrife.As a beekeeper I admit a definite prejudice in favor of these horrible invaders(NOT) I know the Gov.Ag.people spend alot of time and taxpayers money trying to get farmers to eradicate these plants,but I wonder if maybe these plants arent really the demons they are made out to be.(example-they say muskrats avoid loosestrife.In this area they have been trying to curtail muskrat erosion to riverbanks for years,now they want to eliminate loosestrife) I sense it is 'politically correct'to jump on the non-native species bandwagon.Just count me in the 'let nature take its course'group. Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:20:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: bee photography. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Balge is bellows - for certain. I speak both English and German and photograph in both languages. Martin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 09:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Bee photography Comments: To: ryarnell@OREDNET.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Going a little crazy here - I have successfully photographed insects with a twin-lens Rolleicord with screw-on close-up lenses. I have also used a Pentax SLR with 200mm macro and lots of natural light. To me it is not a matter of snapping a thousand shots and throwing all but one away (too expensive with all types of film for me!), but it is a matter of patience, time, and timing. In that regard the rolleicord has actually served me better. I only have twelve shots per roll, so I can't snap away. I see the subject at all times because it is a twin-lens, so it does not move out of focus or get blown by the wind at the last instant as the SLR mirror flips up. Do I advocate running about with a twin-lens camera to photograph bees? No, not unless you are a fool like me. It is fun, time consuming, but I get that extra bit of joy knowing that one in 5, or one in 2 even of my photos are good, rather than one in 20 or one in 100. It may take me just as long to get that one ! as it does someone with a fast-firing SLR because I stalk the things and more often than not give up until a better opportunity presents itself rather than snap the shutter. For me the bottom line is try it, if it works for you, adopt it. You should be able to rent a macro lens for a weekend at a respectable photo dealer or second-hand photo shop and give it a whirl. Rent a digital camera too (I like the idea of no film - to a point. There is still something, for me, in having a tangible film that can be archived and stored for two hundred years - if you go digital you hope that in two hundred years the technology can read your cd). If it works for you, buy it. Me, I'll stick with the knob-wind, all manual bulky hunk af machined aluminum called a rolleicord. Painfully slow, will never make money with it, but with experience it too can be used for insect photography. Martin Damus a moderate modern luddite ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 08:23:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "James J. Grefig" Subject: Purple Loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Visit the following web site for more information on Purple Loosestrife, its spread and control. http://www.fws.gov/R5MNWR/mnwrls.html Jim Grefig Crugers, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 05:54:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > We never dried any of our pollen. We ran it through a seed cleaner and = > then picked it clean with tweezers. It went directly into the freezer. = > We vaccuum sealed it and sold it to the local Hawaiian health food = Thanks to Mark for sharing his methods. Many have put down the dried pollen as being inferior. Can any proof be shown? In remote desert areas pollen is automatically dried in the traps as the recommended drying temperature is 95F.. In desert areas the pollen is collected, run through a seed cleaner, hand picked and then frozen or vacuum sealed. I see a move by certain elements to say the dried pollen is somehow inferior. Dried pollen has been the accepted method for pollen production in the world since the start of commercial pollen collection. I am sure there are cases of overly dried pollen but most I have seen has not been bitter tasting and not overly dried. In Missouri we get a red pollen in our honey supers which is VERY bitter and will ruin comb honey. If you trap pollen every week in Missouri you will see a steady change in the color as the floral sources change. Only the red pollen from a source unknown to me is bitter. pollen trapping can only be profitable when you figure out the right time to trap for your area. Something which might take several seasons. I would like to see proof that drying pollen at 95 F. and then freezing (as recommended by the desert pollen collectors) is less of a product than simply freezing. Even yeast is not killed at a temperature of less than 100F. and the honey is certainly not harmed. When removed from the freezer and placed in jars the recommended shelf life is one year in a sealed container for the 95 F. dried pollen ( according to the desert pollen collectors). Vacuum packing can give a longer shelf life. Keeping the not dried pollen froze in a baggy is a hassle and makes the product hard to market at farmers markets. Although there seems to be two methods in use I can't see the justification in condemning the dried pollen. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. The desert pollen collectors paid a 200,000 U.S. fine years ago for making claims about their pollen which couldn't be proven ( desert viagra). Pollen collection has been around for a long time. Tainted pollen is a reality is certain areas. I would never consider selling pollen retail myself without product liability. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 12:53:52 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Eliminating Mites without chemicals (and SMR bees) In-Reply-To: <200108042206.f74M6e810840@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200108042206.f74M6e810840@listserv.albany.edu>, Computer Software Solutions Ltd writes >Would not a combination of SMR bees and an open mesh floor be worth trying? >It seems to me that Americans are fortunate in having access to SMR bees, as >I see that they are now extensively advertised in The American Bee Journal. >In this country, importation of bees is prohibited. How does one get started >with SMR bees from scratch or is it a viable proposition? Any comments or >advice would be appreciated. Dear Tom The Americans did research on their bees. We need to do the same. Several different sources suggest SMR is a character in honey bees. (For example, bees making a comeback in the US would most likely have to be SMR). What strength it has in our own bees over this side of the Atlantic and in the different races of honey bees is as yet unknown, in the sense that if it is and someone knows about it, they haven't put it out on the lists or into accessible literature (from whence it is usually put out on the lists) so far as I know. One American project starts with measuring mite fall and having selected the best colonies, they are left untreated to see how they survive (perhaps this is an oversimplification and distortion of the whole process). A lower count in some colonies suggests the bees have one or more mechanism to keep the population level lower than in those other colonies (sorry about the almost tautology) (we have at least 3 known factors: SMR, hygiene and grooming, the last having been identified in A.m.m. as well as A.m.c. for some time now). Breeding from them and replacing the others with a higher mite load is a start, however long the process would take given the multiple gene issue and the need to get the drones right if open mating is used. At least, if we find a colony that keeps the level of mite fall constant and low, we'd know it was either not providing the environment for mites to reproduce, or it was removing mites as fast as they were being produced. Personally I think it is much better we all forge ahead on this one rather than waiting for some breeder to give us all our nice new SMR queens of some foreign race developed somewhere totally different environmentally and thus try to replace all the local bees which have developed to suit our own areas. The "grass is greener" syndrome has certainly not benefited British beekeeping IMHO but that's another hobby horse. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 07:46:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108070708.f7778G808395@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Tooley wrote: > I know the Gov.Ag.people spend alot of time and taxpayers money > trying to get > farmers to eradicate these plants,but I wonder if maybe these plants arent > really the demons they are made out to be.(example-they say muskrats avoid > loosestrife.In this area they have been trying to curtail muskrat > erosion to > riverbanks for years,now they want to eliminate loosestrife) > I sense it is 'politically correct'to jump on the non-native species > bandwagon.Just count me in the 'let nature take its course'group. I've been thinking a lot about that myself lately. As I understand it, gradual changes in what grows and lives in a particular geographic region has been ongoing for thousands of years. Stasis is not the natural state of our ecosystems. It has been a hot, dry summer so far in Eastern Ontario. Normal daily highs this time of year are 26C; predictions are for 33C today, and it has been like that for weeks. There is often rain in the forecast, but not on the ground, I've had two rainfalls in the last two months. Except for a few days after the rain falls, my bees are heading for the local wetlands, where they are finding purple loosestrife. There are many other things growing there as well (I've looked), but as far as I can tell only the loosestrife is giving anything to my bees. I think about that, and I think about all the money my government is spending to introduce creatures who will destroy what is to me a valuable resource. There are different perspectives on this issue just as there are on any. It doesn't seem that the beekeeper's perspective on this issue gets considered at all. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:41:53 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108070709.f7779J808407@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I have been watching this non-native plant debate with interest for a few >years now, first with yellow star thistle ,now with purple loosestrife. It is not very unusual to find plants which are unpopular from the viewpoint of many other land uses but which are popular with bees and therefore beekeepers. Our hillsides of manuka (_Leptospermum scoparium_) in many cases represent the defeat of attempted pastoral farming but then can yield very valuable medicinal honey. _Lantana_ spp are serious weeds in parts of Australia but - if I'm correctly informed - a very good bee plant. This general type of conflict is, I think, not rare. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 17:52:57 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: <200108070416.f774GY802923@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark=20 wrote: ... >We never dried any of our pollen. We ran it through a seed cleaner and = >then picked it clean with tweezers. It went directly into the freezer. = >We vaccuum sealed it and sold it to the local Hawaiian health food = >stores for $12.95 a pound! It was a money-maker. Without looking up the standards such as they are, I would deprecate this method. Lloyd may well be right that there's such a thing as overdrying, but there sure is under-drying. Wouldn't it be best to dry the pollen before packaging, so that when opened the packed pollen will be less likely to moulder? I like the fungus kingdom, but some of them are killers. Horizontal gauze racks about a yard square over an electric heater I've seen in commercial drying. The attic under an ordinary 'tin' roof is at 30 - 55 Celsius in spring, summer & autumn days in my temperate climate. Given suitable ventilation, such an attic is the basis for drying a LOT of pollen. But I haven't tried it; and the depredations of varroa may prevent my doing so for the indefinite future. Anyhow, I reckon pollen should be dried before distribution. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:53:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108070708.f7778Y808401@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 7 Aug 101, Mike Tooley wrote: > I have been watching this non-native plant debate with interest for a few > years now,first with yellow star thistle ,now with purple loosestrife. > Just count me in the 'let nature take its course'group. I think it's a matter of what you consider "natural." The problem with non-native invaders like Purple Loosestrife, Star Thistle, ScotchBroom and others is that they have been transported long distances without the accompaniment of the conditions or predators which keep them under control in their original range. If they are allowed to thrive in new ranges, they can (and do) overwhelm native species on which other plants and animals depend. A couple of examples in the NW USA are Scotch Broom and English Ivy. The former grows quickly in meagre soils, seeds profusely (the seeds can be viable for decades) and overwhelm anything but established trees which are already taller than the Scotchbroom will ever grow. English Ivy climbs trees of all kinds and will overwhelm them with, if nothing else, the weight of its attractive, waxy leafed self. Both plants are capable of replacing native species which underlie the ecology of this area. Then recall Kudzu and the havoc it is still causing in areas it was introduced, first in the Southern US. I'd suggest that deliberate introduction of non-native species over great distances is anything but mother nature at work; that one of the purposes of our industry is to assist the methods of natural pollination which may not be adequate for mono-cropping industrial farming practices; and that one of the charms of honey production is the regional production of unique honeys based on what grows naturally in your neck of the woods. Now to get back into the new woodlot to remove a couple of acres of scotch broom which threatens to kill off the three year old Douglas Fir. :( --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:21:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: GM bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The comment made by one of the listers about not wanting his hives taken because of their having a patented gene is a good one. In Canada a farmer lost his case vs. Monsanto who found one of their GM crops in his field when he hadn't bought it. He claimed the pollen blew in and pollinated his crop, part of the seed of which he keeps for replanting. He now has to pay damages because the judge ruled that a farmer should know his crop well enough to know whether or not it is 'his' (even though you cannot physically tell a difference between the GM and non-GM crop!). What are beekeepers going to do? Restrain their virgin queens? Will GM bees perhaps have a gene that makes it impossible for them to produce drones (hey-might help with varroa control). Beekeepers "replant their seed" year after year. For GM bees to be profitable to the manufacturer each beekeeper would either have to rebuy the queens from the producer annually (like GM crop farmers do), pay an exhorbitant am! ount to purchase them in the first place, or pay annual dues for the privilege of housing and using the GM bees. If your GM drone inseminates my non-gm queen, but so do 19 non-gm drones, do I have to destroy 1/20th of my hive? How do I know which are gm and which aren't? Policing the system is impossible, impractical and costly. I predict we will never see GM bees unless the government pays for their development and gives them out without licences and desires no profit in return. Personally I think we might as well remove restrictions on importing queens from other countries to expand the gene pool of our bees and be able to better breed desirable traits. Vigilance is needed to stop the importation of other pests (but the hive beetle got in anyways, eh?), but the absolute ban is really now more wasteful than productive, in my opinion. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 11:01:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: purple loosestrife Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Purple loosestrife can still be bought as a garden plant. That it has escaped is no surprise to me at all. The anti-purple loosestrife bandwagon has been jumped on by many people, mostly biologists who see a new project with potential government funding. An interesting article was sent to a scientific journal, written by two undergraduate ecology students, that questioned the approach used by most people to eradicate loosestrife, in particular the haste to import exotic inesects (Galerucella beetles) to 'control' it. The article received tremendous support from the receiving editor, who sent it for peer review. The reviewers, who work in the field of loosestrife eradication, roundly denounced it because it attacked the validity (and in the editor's opinion with good reason) of their work and goverment funding for their work. Needless to say it could not be published (scientific freedom you say?) and has not been. I have seen loosestrife in many wetlands, and I have ye! t to see it completely take over any wetland. It has its margin of habitat requirements, and in all the places I have seen it it has mixed with the native flora. No one has yet, to my knowledge, shown using scientific studies that it is really causing large scale harm, something I would think is a prerequisite to importing exotic plant-eating beetles to eradicate it! I participated in a loosestrife project at the University of Guelph that looked at how the plant can propagate. Basically any section of the plant that has a node (the point where leaves or roots grow from) can grow into a new plant. If you rip it out, you break off many nodes - many new plants can grow. You must remove the entire thing - simply pulling it will not do the job unless you go back over and over to keep pulling what you left behind. In that case your trampling in the marsh is probably doing more damage to the native flora than the loosestrife was. My two bits' worth Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 10:30:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: A New Round of Aerial Applications An open letter to the "bee world" Comments: cc: BOMBUS-L@umdd.umd.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A new round of aerial applications for mosquitoes is already underway, or being planned in many areas of the eastern US. Unfortunately many beekeepers and many of our bee officials will follow right along like bleating sheep, covering their hives, and their butts, and not deal with the real issue. We in the bee world have an insight into the interrelationships of the natural world that the public does not have, and only if we get involved, will the public not be hoodwinked. Will You Help? Massive applications of insecticides over wide areas can do immense environmental damage. There are no islands of safety for beneficial insects to hide and recover. Many of these applications are illegal, a violation of label directions, yet the public officials that run them seem to be immune from accountability After adulticide aerial applications, the mosquitoes will be back in a few days. The bees and other beneficial insects will take YEARS to recover. These insects are vital to our (human) survival! I've seen the terrible loss of bees and other beneficials from the 1989 applications in South Carolina, and I'll tell the full tale to anyone who hasn't heard it, but I won't bore the rest of you, only to note that it took a decade to recover to near normal. The end result of such projects is a decrease in biodiversity, and an increase in our future dependence on pesticides to handle the population explosions of pests that have lost their natural controls. Great program if you manufacture or sell pesticides...Follow the money trail! We are already seeing population explosions of pests in some areas of the country. In the past few years the Southwest has had massive problems with grasshoppers. Nature will sometimes get off balance and a population explosion will result. But nature will not do this year after year! Someone has killed off the natural predators of the grasshoppers, particularly those which prey on the first generation. Things are out of balance. We've got to go back and find where we took the wrong turn. The standard defense of these programs is that it is a public health issue. Believe me, the loss of our pollinators is also a public health issue! I have seen a child die of starvation, and it's a horror that will live with me for my lifetime. Do we want to see our children and grandchildren experience the same? When the planes go up, the battle with mosquitoes is already lost. If a program is underway in your area, get involved. Find out what material is being used and what the label directions say. Get knowledgeable about pesticides. Find out who is selling the pesticide in use, and the relationship they have with the public officials who approve the applications. Get on their case and stick to it. Get publicity. Write letters to editors. Seek prosecution for label violations. Buy or borrow a camcorder and record applications in progress. If it is an adulticide which is forbidden to apply while bees are foraging, find foraging bees in the application area to show the violation. Show dead bees wherever you can find them, in the field is more significant than at the hives. Keep notes and records. Ask your state pesticide officials to cite and prosecute violators, even if they are public officials. They probably won't do it, but it might make them think harder. Here are some aids: How to get copies of pesticide labels online: http://pollinator.com/pesticide_misuse.htm Beneficial insects and biological control links: http://pollinator.com/beneficial.htm Documentation of previous violations in a county program http://members.aol.com/gardenbees/ Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:59:36 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: BEE EATER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > i'm from malaysia, i have problem with migratory bird, hundreds of them > eating my bees when they return to my box in everning. normally its > happen in mei till august. any help!! If it is the same bird which we also call the rainbow bee eater and has the scientific name (Merops ornatus) then I am afraid there is not much you can do. As you say it is a pest for you from May till August. This is because it is a migratory bird. It will comes down to Australia about now and migrates as far south as Victoria for our spring/summer and then goes back north to Asia when autumn/winter comes to Australia. There are however some which stay in a fixed area but these are usually low in numbers. I have seen hundreds of birds lined up on a fence swooping at bees. Some have tried shooting them, which is illegal in Australia, but it does not seem to put a dent in the numbers. Here we have to wait until they move south or north depending on which way they are going. I noticed a reply to put bird wire around your hives but that will not work as the bee eaters catch the bees on the wing and will get them before they get to the bird wire. Ironically, there have been trials done in Darwin to use the regurgitated pellets of these birds to examine for the presence of Asian bees (Apis cerana). The wings, which are examined, are regurgitated along with other indigestible parts. It works and there are papers on this currently being refereed. I have been privileged to read a proof copy in my capacity as chairing the Quarantine Sub-committee here in Australia. This work was commenced after the incursion of Asian honey bees in Darwin in 1998. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 07:44:18 +1000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: T & M Weatherhead Subject: Re: Purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Mann wrote >Lantana_ spp are serious weeds > in parts of Australia but - if I'm correctly informed - a very good bee > plant. Sorry Robert but you have been informed incorrectly. Lantana is not a good bee plant. In all my time I have seen only one bee on one lantana flower depsite the thousands of acres I have seen. Trevor Weatherhead AUSTRALIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 17:11:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife In-Reply-To: <200108071938.f77Jcc827357@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since they have detected dust and other particles from dust storms in India being deposited down on the eastern US coastline, natural includes a global environment. Nature changes the range of plants all the time, man is just better at it than most. Ducks carry fish eggs on their feet, depositing them into sterile ponds, birds spread seeds (and viruses) throughout their range. And seeds have been known to cross oceans on non-manmade rafts, been swept for hundreds of miles via hurricanes and tornadoes (as well as dust storms). For many plants, it is just a matter of time before they spread, if they are as successful at it as Purple Loosestrife. And their natural preditors don't always make the trip with them. Of course, with man changing the actual habitat these plants are in (draining swamps, improving rivers by channelizing and building flood dikes), native plants can end up at a much greater disadvantage than they would normally have done. Too bad Kudzu is such a destructive pest. It is a very pretty plant (when it quits growing long enough to make it out), has beautiful fragrant flowers (only last a short time here), is edible (GA farmers actually cultivate it for cattle fodder and are resisting effors to ban it's cultivation) and makes a good houseplant (hanging baskets are sold in the NY area, or used to be). Here in the upper SE US, however, it is eating up the landscape, covering many square miles and killing EVERYTHING in it's path, including mature trees. There are some areas in the mountains close by where you can see nothing else for miles -- the trees that used to be there are just stumps now. Loosestrife, on the other hand, struggles here (despite 60" of annual rainfall), as most of the area is deciduous forest. In non-wetland gardens, it seldom grows over 1" in spread a year (any many gardeners have it from before the bans). The beetles they are going to import, however, will no doubt be just as bad as the loosestrife in a few years. If they were successful in eating it all, they would not just "die off" as the proponents insist, but would then develop other food sources. Or, they may prefer some other vital item in our landscape that does not exist in their native land -- which we won't know until they have been here for several years. If they are as voracious as claimed, they could become the next japanese beetle plague in the US. Perhaps, then the GM proponents will breed us a cross between the two that will eat up all the kudzu (just what we need, more efficient japanese beetles). -K -----Original Message----- From: Richard Yarnell I think it's a matter of what you consider "natural." The problem with non-native invaders like Purple Loosestrife, Star Thistle, ScotchBroom and others is that they have been transported long distances without the accompaniment of the conditions or predators which keep them under control in their original range. If they are allowed to thrive in new ranges, they can (and do) overwhelm native species on which other plants and animals depend. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:47:41 -0700 Reply-To: "Susan L. Nielsen" Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Susan L. Nielsen" Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: pollen In-Reply-To: <200108071429.f77ETB816954@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 7 Aug 2001, Bob & Liz wrote: > Pollen collection has been around for a long time. Tainted pollen is a > reality is certain areas. I would never consider selling pollen retail > myself without product liability. I predict that the opinion I am about to air will not be a popular one. But it's been niggling at me through this thread on pollen- eating, so here it is: I do not think pollen should be eaten by humans, and I do not think it is responsible for beekeepers to sell it. There. The reasons are these: While I don't question that pollen is a concentrated source of proteins, I recognize also that in flower pollen there is a concentration of materials from the environment of the growing plant. The pollen of a flower is just hanging out there while the flower develops. Anything sprayed on the plant, anything that drifts by, anything at all, sticks to the pollen and stays there. The bee collects it and takes it home and tucks it away in the cupboard. And there is a whole lot of stuff that drifts across the surface of a flower these days. I seriously doubt there is anyplace on the planet that can boast of uncompromised pollen. Pesticides used on cotton in Georgia have been found in plants in Alaska. We live in a container. If you are a bee, you have a lifespan of a few weeks. If a chemical exposure doesn't kill you outright, it doesn't make much difference what it is. Humans are another matter. Some things we consume can stay in our bodies for years. Some can begin processes that take years to show evidence. Some can affect our next generation. Some of them are unknown to us. Some are known and appreciated, but perhaps not considered because: bee pollen is health food, right? I don't think it is healthy. It might have been, once (there is another essay there, regarding whether there are any actual benefits of pollen- eating by humans who might be willing to spend horrific amounts of money on possible therapies for desparate ills -- but I won't go down that road in this one). I don't think we can possibly know what we are feeding people who buy our pollen. We make extraordinary efforts to keep our honey pure and healthful, but then we go right ahead and sell a product that is untested and unattested to by any scientific means. Just because someone is willing to buy to it an impressive price, it's not necessarily a good thing to sell. Susan -- Susan Nielsen | Beehive: If you build it, snielsen@orednet.org | they will comb. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:56:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: A New Round of Aerial Applications An open letter to the "bee world" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Green said: > A new round of aerial applications for mosquitoes is already underway, > or being planned in many areas of the eastern US. Unfortunately many > beekeepers and many of our bee officials will follow right along like bleating > sheep, covering their hives, and their butts, and not deal with the real issue... Such a hostile and adversarial approach will do nothing to prevent the negative impact of spraying, and will only harm the perception of beekeepers as "reasonable and responsible steward of the environment". There is no reason to demonize those involved. These people need HELP, not confrontation. The problems that result in errors in spraying are complex and many: a) Such spraying programs are thrown together from ad-hoc resources by people who most often have never worked together before. Most commonly, a State health department orders the spraying, and the plan is implemented by the Air National Guard. b) Neither group knows much about spraying insecticides. Both groups could use some expertise, some oversight, and some sage-like advice. They certainly are not going to look for help from any group that comes off as "foaming-at-the-mouth" opponents to spraying in any form. c) To be blunt, the Air National Guard may look more at weather conditions and equipment/staff availability than at the insecticide label. Some of the Air National Guard pilots are not willing to take the additional risk of flying low-level spray runs at dusk or at night. Further, these men and women are "weekend warriors", and may be under time constraints to "finish" in a specific timeframe. d) The media loves this stuff. Every bird and horse found dead is cause for another news story. The "West Nile Virus", while killing only 9 people since 1985, seems to be a cause for over-reaction amongst both the public and public health officials. All of the above can lead to daytime spraying. Since the overriding concern is "public health", and the situation is most often described as "an emergency", the initial reaction to any but the most well-reasoned approaches to concerns about environmental impact may be "go away". How to insure that spraying is done correctly? GET INVOLVED, at least as a pro-bono consultant. Understand that there is zero continuity between "this time" and "last time", so SOMEONE has to educate people who may have never sprayed anything before, and will have to provide the continuity. Waiting on the ground with a video camera is far too little, far too late. If any beekeepers reading this are also Air National Guard officers, perhaps they could make us aware of the State-level chain of command for each state. While it may be difficult to break through the barrier of PR flacks at the health department, I have found that military folks are amazingly accessible, open to input, and responsive if one knows the name and phone number of the correct officer. Hey, its their planet too. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Martin Damus wrote: >I have seen loosestrife in many wetlands, and I have ye! > t to see it completely take over any wetland. It has its margin of habitat requirements, >and in all the places I have seen it it has mixed with the native flora. No one has yet, >to my knowledge, shown using scientific studies that it is really causing large scale >harm, something I would think is a prerequisite to importing exotic plant-eating beetles >to eradicate it! We have loads of loosestrife on our property which is right by a major migration route for ducks. On a fall day, just before hunting season, there will be hundreds of ducks within 200 feet of the house. We have lived here for 27 years and the loosestrife has not spread to the wetlands, as it is supposed to according to the books, but a native sawgrass is doing its part to do just what the loosestrife is supposed to. I have pulled one loosestrife plant from the marsh in the past 27 years. It really does not like it there nearly as much as in my clay soil, well above the waterline. Where I have seen it become intrusive is with cattails in semi-wet soils, but definitely not marsh. When I first came in contact with it I read how bad it was and was very concerned about the marsh. Not any more. I am much more concerned about the sawgrass which takes over completely and in which no duck could forage. And it does give a greenish tinged honey which I like. And, as stated by others, it keeps producing when all others have dried up, which is what is happening in our area right now. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:38:54 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Mann Subject: Re: pollen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Susan Neilsen opined: >I do not think pollen should be eaten by humans, and I do not think it >is responsible for beekeepers to sell it. > >There. > >The reasons are these: While I don't question that pollen is a >concentrated source of proteins, I recognize also that in flower >pollen there is a concentration of materials from the environment >of the growing plant. The pollen of a flower is just hanging out >there while the flower develops. Anything sprayed on the plant, >anything that drifts by, anything at all, sticks to the pollen >and stays there. The bee collects it and takes it home and tucks >it away in the cupboard. And there is a whole lot of stuff that >drifts across the surface of a flower these days. 1 I disclose my interest as a consultant to a retailer of 'bee pollen' capsules. 2 That role has not at all altered my attitude to pollen as a human food supplement. 3 Susan's theory would apply approximately to nectar also, wouldn't it? To the extent that nectar is less "hanging out there" than anthers are, the concentration by evaporation would roughly compensate, I theorize. At this rate, honey is predicted to be so laden with toxins from the environment that it becomes unfit for human consumption. Fact will always matter more than theory in such matters. What are the facts about toxins in pollen - and in honey? R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: purple loosestrife MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When considering controls for non-native plants, non-native controls are often considered. In Canada an insect was imported to control Star Thistle. Apparently these insects weren't put through the proper orientation, instructing them to only consume the Star Thistle so they ate any thistle they came across, including one that is in danger of extinction in Canada. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:42:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Manuka (was Purple Loosestrife) In-Reply-To: <200108071438.f77EcU817328@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw this past week where all Manuka honey in NZ was being recalled, due to packaging claims (can't remember sort, right off - believe it was latest Bee Culture magazine, but could have been a news item elsewhere). NZ apparently doesn't allow health claims, but there were many on the "wound-dressing" manuka honey products being sold. Have you heard anything about this? -K -----Original Message----- From: Robert Mann .... Our hillsides of manuka (_Leptospermum scoparium_) in many cases represent the defeat of attempted pastoral farming but then can yield very valuable medicinal honey. _Lantana_ spp are serious weeds in parts of Australia but - if I'm correctly informed - a very good bee plant. This general type of conflict is, I think, not rare. - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949