From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:57 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AAA24ADEE for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9p008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9p008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0108D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 181687 Lines: 3920 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:35:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/21/01 5:50:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, allend@INTERNODE.NET writes: > or if plastic will work as well -- Plastic can sag so provide some support. Thats what "thermoplastics" do with heat. I use storm windows (glass) that you can get free from anybody upgrading their old house to insulating glass. Usenet newsgroup has a group called "alt.solar.thermal" those guys have all the answers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:02:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Small hive beetle will attack a hive that has just swarmed. This is a natural weak hive and not a bad beekeeper. This leaves open space in the hive comb that is not covered by active bees. Honey frames with unfilled cells are prone to hatch larve. The open bottom floor hive and the observation hive with floor that can be vaccumed cleanned can survive the small hive beetles. The frame will have a scent that will keep the bees away from cleanning the hive. This can be solved by cleanning the hive floor. The bees will begin to clean the frames of the small hive larvae as soon as you remove the matted mass of debree. The odor from this filth is the problem. When it is cleanned up the hive bees will begin to clean the frames immediately. If you have a solid floor tilt the box lowering the enterance and leave the back side of the bottom open in the back. This will ventilate the floor and with a little rain will wash the floor. It will also help the bees in the carrying the larvae out the enterance. The brood should be the top box for it to survive in an effectted hive. The hive will be very defencive, were suit during cleanning. Feral hives are surriving the beattle attacks in the wild. The ones with room below the wax or open outside the tree hives. I have not mentioned any chemicals to use but the construction of the hives . Summary Remove extra boxes to confine bees to brood, open bottom hive or tilt floor, check and clean floor. Michael Housel Orlando,Fl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:54:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jaugusta Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > wonder if > > there is any necessity to use glass on top, or if plastic will work as > well -- > > assuming it does not melt. > One thing to remember--ordinary plastic with yellow and crack due to UV radiation--there is a UV-resistant plastic and a brush on coating too, sign shops use it in their outdoor signs. Best wishes, Joseph ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 08:41:27 +0100 Reply-To: Dave Cushman Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Allen I use 4 mm acrylic sheet, double glazed 10 mm gap It works, but not as well as glass as it blocks some frequencies. When I first made it I had three sheets and two 10 mm gaps, but that barely worked at all. I have plans to make a new top that is double glazed glass and is much larger than the box. This will allow sunlight into the box at a wider number of angles and will thus give more time per day. Regards From:- Dave Cushman, G8MZY Beekeeping and Bee Breeding, http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman IBList Archives, http://website.lineone.net/~d.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:56:47 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter In-Reply-To: <200108220355.f7M3txQ24860@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A single glazed collector won't get hot enough to ignite the wood unless it's been in service a long time. (451F more or less.) The designs I've seen provide for the melted wax to drain out of the heated compartment. If you do build a collector which you want to use for several seasons, either start with a metal box, or line a wooden one with foil or light weight sheet metal. You can buy selective coatings for use with solar collectors which improve performance by allowing less light to be reflected out of the box. Mark has it right. The change in wave length of the reflected light makes glass opaque to the reflected Infrared light and keeps it in the box. As to tilt: you'll probably be using the wax melter during a relatively short period and at the same time each year. You can tilt it so that the sun angle is perpendicular to the plane of the glass cover. If you'll be using it all year round, latitude plus or minus 15 degrees is rule of thumb. Don't laugh: I've seen collectors installed where they are shaded during at least part of the day. Keep it in the sun. On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Matthew W. wrote: > Design your melter so it's tiltable if possible - vs. fixed. Mine doesn't sport > this feature and I've ended up wedging it against the house at the best angle. > Filling it full of wax makes me uneasy while it melts knowing it might be a fire > hazard. Anyone ever have one catch fire? --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 22:36:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Solar wax melter In-Reply-To: <200108220342.f7M3gFQ24125@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hit the Goodwill up for a large cast iron dutch oven. Attach some foam insulation to the bottom and half of the side. It makes a crude, but effective, batch heater. On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Rodney Farrar wrote: > Does anyone have any plans they can share? I only have about 10 pounds of wax. > --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 07:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Re: Solar wax melter In-Reply-To: <200108220343.f7M3hmQ24162@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Why don't you melt it in boiling water and then let it harden in a plastic container after straning it through a screen. Cheers, Carm --- Rodney Farrar wrote: > Does anyone have any plans they can share? I only > have about 10 pounds of wax. > > Rodney in VA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:24:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Keim Subject: SHB, Varroa simultaneous control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I read with interest, Michael Housel's observations on the Small Hive Beetle, since I am in Kansas, next door to Missouri. Thanks, Michael. Eighty five of my colonies have screened bottoms on pallets, and this seems even more reason to change the rest over. Mike Brown, the Missouri State Entomologist who confirmed the infestation in southern Missouri told me the colony was started from a package this spring, and that he advised the use of Checkmite. Mann Lake sells a 5X5 pad to mount the Checkmite strip, in halves in their online catalog. If I do a sugar shake and find a yard that needs varroa control AND it happens to be one of my yards with bottom boards, will the Checkmite poised for SHB control also control varroa? Looks doubtful to me... Thanks. John Keim Fairview, KS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:08:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: SHB, Varroa simultaneous control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello John & All, > Eighty five of my colonies have screened bottoms on pallets, and this seems > even more reason to change the rest over. What is the size of your screen ? southern Missouri told me the colony was started from a package this spring, > and that he advised the use of Checkmite. The migratory beekeeper always gets the blame for the spread of a new problem when as with varroa most spread is by packages. I received my first tracheal mites with a order of queens. > Mann Lake sells a 5X5 pad to mount the Checkmite strip, in halves in their > online catalog. If I do a sugar shake and find a yard that needs varroa > control AND it happens to be one of my yards with bottom boards, will the > Checkmite poised for SHB control also control varroa? No! Only the SHB will be controled when the checkmite is hid beneath the 5x5 pad. What the Florida state bee people are not saying is. When a hive is weak the small hive beetle invades in such large numbers the checkmite under pad is of little use. Eggs are laid in numbers larger than the wax moth. Only the amount of beetles hiding under the pad contact the contact chemical. Weak hives have been lost with the checkmite pads in place! The pads are however all we have got to fight the shb at present time. If the shb proves to be a larger problem than *Mr. Cutts* says then the USDA will no doubt come up with a better plan for control. As Mr. Cutts says weak hives are always in danger from robbing, wax moths and the SHB. I do not want to belittle the opinion of the Florida state bee people but only post what I have found out from talking to those beekeepers on the front lines in Florida. Is not the internet wonderful? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. If you get shb in your hives I suggest you go to the Florida Beekeepers list and join and read the archives and you can learn the IPM methods the beekeepers are using. To numerous for me to post here. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:10:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Does anyone have any plans they can share? I only have about 10 pounds of wax. >Rodney in VA http://www.beesource.com/plans/melter.htm Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Michael & All, > The bees will begin to clean the frames of the small hive larvae as soon as > you remove the matted mass of debree. This only happens if your bees are Hygienic.. If you are not buying queens from a breeder breeding for the hygienic trait you need to be (in my opinion) if you are fighting SHB. In my yards I have been using queens from the Marla Spivak hygienic line and am very pleased. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 06:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Micheal & All, Thanks to Micheal for adding his experience with SHB. Micheal has many informative posts on the Florida beekeepers list. As you see Micheal does not talk of the pads and strips. They simply do not work with a large infestation. Micheal is right in line with what my Florida friends are saying. IPM and cleanup are the way of the future. Bob Ps. Maybe Micheal will comment on the SHB article in this months ABJ? Freedom of speach on the internet! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:45:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites In-Reply-To: <200108221728.f7MHS8Q18438@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just received an American Bee Journal with a letter that I found quite interesting. It suggested that the practice of removing drone brood in order to control varroa has the side effect of selecting for mites that are infecting worker brood. It seems to that the author may be correct. The practice may provide some short term relief, but in the longer term does it not help the mites adapt to worker brood, and perhaps sabotage the work being done by the small cell folks? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:06:15 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter In-Reply-To: <200108221321.f7MDLwQ10202@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The change in wave length of the reflected light makes >glass opaque to the reflected Infrared light and keeps it in the box. This is a revival of the late-1960s version of the Greenhouse Effect. It is a furphy. A greenhouse - or a solar wax melter - works by frustrating convection, not re-radiation. It holds in the hot air. For present purposes, half the solar radiation is visible and half IR. (The UV, important in many ways, is a negligible fraction of the energy flux.) Darkish contents in the box absorb visible and IR. These contents then glow with IR, which does to some extent radiate back out thru the glazing - just as well as the same IR wavelengths came in. But the warmed air can't get out and that's your greenhouse. Glass remains in general the champ. Strong, doesn't go cloudy, cheap or free as demolition windows. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 10:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank & All, The theory about drone brood removal and mite selection has been around awhile. People using IPM controls like drone brood removal have little else to work with besides dusting, fgmo, 4.9mm cell size, breeding and open mesh floors. You can remove quite a bit of varroa with drone removal. Forget to pull drone brood on time and the varroa problem escalates. I believe that the theory of creating a mite which only prefers worker brood to be small as all research points to varroa loves drone brood and worker brood is a second choice. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:42:15 -0700 Reply-To: Richard Yarnell Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: An exchange regarding "Admire" (Bayer) In-Reply-To: <200108221307.f7MD7sQ09520@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm sorry this exchange regarding "Admire" an injectable form of Imidacloprid, is so long. However, since it turns out that the email address provided by/for the Bayer rep is "inactive," I thought it might help to have the list comment on the questions raised. If the list believes my concern is legitimate, I'll try to pursue the answer. If anyone has better contacts than I do, a pointer would help. My Exchange with Mr. Sanden (UC Davis Extension Service) has been edited only to eliminate multiple copies of messages. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. -----------Forwarded messages------------ Thanks for the reply: I hope Mr. Snyder will chip in. Pollen, while important since both bees and humans eat the stuff - not me! - there are two other issues of more immediate importance: a) If Admire is applied via buried drip and therefore does not see the sun, how long does it persist in the plant's system? b) What levels are found in blossom nectar? Since I understand it is systemic, and if the substance is found in nectar, application before flowering, which you have said would be in accordance with the label, might prove to be a problem for pollinators. I know how hard it is to anticipate all the combinations and permutations during the testing phase. I was present when a noted mushroom producer/researcher pointed out to a USDA official that the pesticide which had just been approved for use in mushroom "caves" - a pesticide which had previously been approved for use for greenhouse and field grown vegetable fruit and leaf crops - that the pesticide would persist in toxic form on mushrooms even into the market place because mushrooms were grown out of sunlight. The guy blanched on the spot - I'd never seen that before. Thanks in advance for yet one more round. RY On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Blake Sanden wrote: > Richard, > I understand that there is no toxicity transmitted to the pollen, BUT > the Admire label excludes chemigation during the presence of bees used > for pollination because they will die if they drink water that may be > ponded around an emitter. Once the material is injected and all > standing water gone there is no problem. I believe Tom Snyder has some > test data. > Bayer -- Tom Snyder [THIS ADDRESS DOES NOT WORK] > Blake > -- > Blake Sanden > Irrigation Management & Agronomy Farm Advisor > University of California Cooperative Extension > 1031 S. Mt Vernon Ave. > Bakersfield, CA 93307 > (661) 868-6218 > (661) 868-6208 (fax) > blsanden@ucdavis.edu > Richard Yarnell wrote: >> May I enquire whether tests have been done on crops requiring or >> attracting pollinators to see what, if any, effects this systemic has >> on insects visiting blossoms? If so, do you know where I can obtain >> results - a summary is sufficient. >> On Fri, 17 Aug 2001, Blake Sanden wrote: >>> Bayer makes an injectable imidacloprid -- Admire -- that has Citrus >>> on the label. Great for drip. >>> Pete Evans wrote: >>>> Could anyone tell me whether systemic insecticides can be applied >>>> via a trickle system? I have a mixture of trees (Carob, almond, >>>> citrus and apple). The Citrus are attacked each year with the Citrus >>>> Leafminer, Phyllocnistis citrella, and I have to spend time every 10 >>>> days or so spraying. My apples also get attacked by aphids, which >>>> can do considerable damage. I normally spray with imidacloprid, >>>> but it can also be applied via the soil. >>>> Obviously I would not include this every day, but is it feasible >>>> to inject into the water supply every 10 days or so? --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:12:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter In-Reply-To: <200108212151.f7LLpnQ14135@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Allen & all SM styrofoam insulation melts in my solar melter, I would be careful about using plastics unless they are guaranteed to withstand the high temperatures that develop. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario Canada 80W44N ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:18:36 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Solar wax melter In-Reply-To: <200108221451.f7MEpCQ12841@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Melting over hot water doesn't produce wax that is as nice as that from a solar wax melter, in my experience. I will sometimes melt cappings this way, strain them, and then put the wax thru a solar melter to get out more of the trash, and to get out suspended moisture and bits of propolis. Even if I add vinegar to the water, I always end up with some "pulpy" wax on the bottom of my cake if I heat it over water. If you have a disaster with melting wax over water, and end up with pulpy wet wax, remelting it in a solar melter will save the situation. My Solar melted wax is always cleaner, lighter, and more satisfactory than that cleaned up with any other method I have tried. I made a small solar wax melter by putting a lid on an old hive body, and placing a large aluminum painters tray inside. It worked great! I'd go out mid- afternoon, scrape out the slumgum, and pour my melted wax into a large styrofoam cup with an inch of hot water in the bottom. The hot water and the styrofoam ensured that the wax cooled slowly, allowing time for the impurities to settle to the bottom of the tall thin wax block. After shaving off the bit of trash on the bottom, I had a very nice cake of clean wax. Now that I have a commercially made melter, I put a teflon loaf pan with a 1/2 inch of water in it in to catch the wax. The cake releases easily, and honey is dissolved in the water. Since it has a wide bottom, it is harder to get the trash scraped off, but wrapping the cake in a bit of muslin or cheesecloth, and remelting a second time usually gives satisfactory results. The wax stiffened cloth makes great fire-starters. Ellen in Michigan Carm wrote: Why don't you melt it in boiling water and then let it harden in a plastic container after straning it through a screen. Cheers, Carm --- Rodney Farrar wrote: > Does anyone have any plans they can share? I only > have about 10 pounds of wax. > > Rodney in VA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:52:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites In-Reply-To: <200108230219.f7N2JZQ07245@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The letter to the ABJ was fairly non-specific, but what I understand him to be referring to is the phenomenon of continually selecting for survivor mites from worker brood. Assumming all drone brood mites are killed, Then each generation of mites would, presumably, be better able to reproduce in worker brood, as all survivors have the traits that enable this behavior. Since not all mites can reproduce in worker brood, there is a strong chance that the traits needed to do so are recessive (otherwise, the majority of mites could do so). Keeping a large number of drone-produced mites on hand would presumably suppress the traits needed to reproduce in small cells. If you somehow managed to breed a mite that easily reproduced in worker cells, then this mite would, presumably, be better able to adapt to breeding in 4.9 foundation. That assumption of perfect kill of drone produced mites is quite a large one, however. You could end up with a small population of weak mites (stunted due to forced reproduction in worker cells), although not likely. This might let you drop chemical treatment. However, you would have to keep removing the drone brood on a regular basis, including any drone brood laid on non-bait comb. It is equally possible that you could completely eliminate varroa from your hives after a faily short time period, if you had 100% SMR bees -- forcing all reproduction to be done in drone cells, which you are removing. If you could remain isolated after that (note, there is NO chance of that in this part of the US), you could then cease treating, so long as you never imported any new bees and swarms never reached your area. Personally, it seems that the use of drone comb continously in the brood area is just asking for trouble. You are increasing the percentage of drone brood in the hive, which dramatically increases the number of mites able to reproduce at any one time. Only if you pull that comb every few days, never missing due to weather, illness, work schedule or a vacation will you kill those mites -- which might not otherwise have even been in the hive at all. You still get mite reproduction in drone cells mixed in with other frames of brood. Occasional use, as a means of diagnosing infection rates, is another matter entirely. K. Oland -----Original Message----- From: Bob & Liz the theory of creating a mite which only prefers worker brood to be small as all research points to varroa loves drone brood and worker brood is a second choice. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites In-Reply-To: <200108231002.f7NA2cQ20264@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The letter to the ABJ was fairly non-specific, but what I understand him to > be referring to is the phenomenon of continually selecting for survivor > mites from worker brood. I understood the same. Even if that was not the point being made by the author (and I think it was) it *is* the point that I am raising here. > Assumming all drone brood mites are killed, Then > each generation of mites would, presumably, be better able to reproduce in > worker brood, as all survivors have the traits that enable this behavior. I don't think your assumption is necessary. More about that below. > If you somehow managed to breed a mite that easily reproduced in worker > cells, then this mite would, presumably, be better able to adapt > to breeding in 4.9 foundation. That assumption of perfect kill of drone > produced mites is quite a large one, however. That's a large assumption alright, but not one that I am making. Let's assume that only 50% of the drone brood in a hive is killed, and with it the mites that were growing in it. Let's say for the sake of argument that at that time, 1% of the mites in brood in this colony were in worker brood. By killing 50% of the drone brood mites, you've doubled the percentage of the next generation of mites that was born from worker brood. Now do that over and over and over.... If one accepts as plausible the hypothesis that mites born from worker brood are more likely than those born from drone brood to be able to lay their eggs in worker brood, then you are selecting for that ability any time you kill any quantity of drone brood without killing an equal quantity of worker brood. The higher the percentage of drone brood you kill, the more aggressively you are breeding worker brood compatible mites, no? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:11:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Keal Subject: Dry packs Hi everybody.....I'm new to beekeeping, my first year, my first hive. I know how bad moisture is in an over wintering hive. My question is this. Why not put a couple silicon dry packs (those little packages that come in new electronics) near the inner cover, or even fastened to the inner cover. I know they say DO NOT EAT on them, and I'm pretty sure they cannot soak up all the moisture, but some is better than none. This also couldn't be used on a large scale, but for someone like me, or someone who had acess to em... what would be wrong with this idea? Just wonderind Dave ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:00:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: 50 gallon Vulcan steam kettle Hello All, We are installing a used (1982 model) three phase Vulcan steam keetle for use later on in the season. Can any Bee-L ers give me any tips on its use, beekeeping uses they have used the steam kettle for or perhaps a place I can order the instruction manual. I see Don Schmit( North Dakota commercial beekeeper) had the same model advertised in ABJ a few months back so maybe I should contact Don. Thanks in advance and reply off list unless you think your post might be of interest to the list. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:59:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites In-Reply-To: <200108231258.f7NCwcQ23412@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Assuming that breeding in worker cells is a simple recessive trait, at any one time, 25% of the population would have the ability to do so, 50% carry it as recessive, able to be passed on, and 25% not have the trait. Since current studies don't show that high a rate of worker reproduction (that I have read), let's say it is a combination of several genes that allow this trait to manifest. That leads to a much smaller number of mites being able to reproduce in the smaller cells (note that cell size is probably irrelevant, the trait may be the ability to reproduce faster or to reproduce on the different nutrition available from a worker vs a drone). So long as a large number of mites exist that were bred in drone cells, there are plenty of the dominant genes around to suppress the recessive ones, as the hive will probably collapse before "worker mites" become the only ones left in the hive, unless treated. With only worker mites around, the beekeeper is more likely to not treat, so long as they monitor mite levels. Killing off 50% of the mites, selected randomly amongs those carrying dominant genes, would result in a temporary increase in the percentage with the traits for worker brood reproduction, but would not necessarily affect future generation's percentages in the long run. We know that mites will reproduce at levels high enough to kill the colony if left alone and that they will do so on hives using all standard foundation. Adding a comb of drone foundation just makes available a larger area for the mites to reproduce, unless you can guarantee that no other drone brood is laid elsewhere. That would seem to require replacing any combs that have had drones previously laid around the edges, as those cells will be stretched out somewhat, leading to future use as drone cells as well. All of which leaves out the arguments of: reduction in hive strength due to comb being dedicated for drone production (if you want to replace easily, you go to 9 frames per box, now you are removing another from production of workers, leaving only 8), reduction in productivity from continual opening of the hive to remove the comb, the labor intensive costs and the effect on your back of removing those honey supers on a regular basis so you can keep pulling the drone comb all summer (unless you put "standard" comb back in during all honey flows). I think the beekeepers that do this see a positive result -- "I removed mites from the hive, I can see them" -- and confuse this with overall mite population reduction. The two are not necessarily the same. Until there is reproducable research that shows multi-year mite control with this method (no chemicals, but other IPM methods allowed), while maintaining honey production (although not necessarily at the same level as with chemical methods), I believe it to be a waste of time as a means of "control". Karen Oland -----Original Message----- From: Frank I. Reiter Let's assume that only 50% of the drone brood in a hive is killed, and with it the mites that were growing in it. Let's say for the sake of argument that at that time, 1% of the mites in brood in this colony were in worker brood. By killing 50% of the drone brood mites, you've doubled the percentage of the next generation of mites that was born from worker brood. Now do that over and over and over.... If one accepts as plausible the hypothesis that mites born from worker brood are more likely than those born from drone brood to be able to lay their eggs in worker brood, then you are selecting for that ability any time you kill any quantity of drone brood without killing an equal quantity of worker brood. The higher the percentage of drone brood you kill, the more aggressively you are breeding worker brood compatible mites, no? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:48:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: red bitter pollen Hello All, I am packaging comb honey today and have had a few sections (like I always do) with a cell filled with the red bitter tasting pollen. Any idea as to the source. The plant blooms in my opinion from the second week of June to the third week of June in the Kansas City area. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:40:57 -0500 Reply-To: Walter Weller Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Walter Weller Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter Allen wrote: > I am thinking of making a solar melter. > > I understand that the design is nothing particularly difficult, but I wonder if > there is any necessity to use glass on top, or if plastic will work as well -- > assuming it does not melt. Plastic works just fine, Allen, at least here in Louisiana. I use two sheets with a quarter-inch gap. They sag a little, so I put in a cross-bar. No problems. Walter Weller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:24:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, > > Assumming all drone brood mites are killed, Then > > each generation of mites would, presumably, be better able to reproduce in > > worker brood, as all survivors have the traits that enable this behavior How is it you will kill "all" drone mites(to do this you must kill all drones)? Do you have that kind of time to do this ? Even if you could do this it is completely unnatural. How would you mate queens? I believe to much assuming is being done here. I don't see traits being passed down at all. The cells are closer to drone sizing at let's say 5.4mm thus the mites simply percieve this as a good place to reproduce. The mite just wants to live and reproduce like anything else. The mite reproduces in worker brood because it is available. > > If you somehow managed to breed a mite that easily reproduced in worker > > cells, then this mite would, presumably, be better able to adapt > > to breeding in 4.9 foundation. That assumption of perfect kill of drone > > produced mites is quite a large one, however. This hasn't happened! There is about 800 colonies I know of to prove this. About 90-95% of mite reproduction occurs in drone brood in colonies on 4.9 cells (not foundation). The small amount of mites that is in worker brood is chewed out at the tail end of the honey flow. The time when the winter population is capping over. Pictures of this can be seen on BIO BEE list for those interested. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 03:11:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Frank & All, As I said in a previous post " the concept is not new about breeding a stronger mite through drone brood removal." The problem with the hypothesis is: Varroa is happy to reproduce in worker brood. Consider for example drone brood as only a preference in available food. As Dr. Shiminuki said at the first ABF convention when he introduced the concept to us. The benefits out way the remote chance of creating a mite which prefers drone brood only. Removing drone brood is a excellent way to reduce varroa load for a hobby beekeeper with time on his hands. The drone removal practice is not done by any sideliner or commercial beekeeper I am aware of simply do to the amount of work involved and the chance the operator might not make it back in time to pull the drone comb. Dr. Shiminuki also said that for IPM to work several different tools need to be used. The top three were drone brood removal, open mesh floors and breeding from varroa resistant stock. In Dr. Shiminuki's opinion all three would be needed to get away from chemical treatment. Shim's talk was years ago so he may have a different opinion today. Dr. Shiminuki for those not familiar with the name was the person in charge of the main bee lab in Beltsville, Maryland until he retired about a year ago. "Shim" was one of the most knowledgeable bee researchers I ever met. "Shim" always took the time to answer my questions but his answers were brief and he moved on. A talent I wish I could develop. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 20:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Particals After 20 years keeping bees in California, New Guinea and South Africa I find myself in need of the wisdom of this board. (I've searched the archives). I've never had trouble straining before, but even after several strainings with mesh and cloth, there are still lots of black specks floating around in my honey. I've got a lot to sell now, and I want to get it clear. Any ideas as to specific temperatures and mesh sizes? I'm not sure whats going on, although I did by an old used extractor. But whatever, any ideas? Thanks much Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 15:24:07 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Solar wax melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have refrained from describing my solution because it is so rinky-dink, as befits a rinky-dink hobbyist beekeeper. I use a cardboard box which fits over the baking pan I stole from my kitchen range. Cut the box sides on a diagonal at an angle approximately at 90 degrees to the autumn sun. Slit the outer layer of the cardboard about 1/2" inch from the edge and turn that strip outward 90 degrees to form a flange around the diagonal opening. Line the inside of the box with aluminum foil. Glue a second thickness of cardboard around the outside for added insulation. Fasten a piece of glass to the flange with contact cement. Set this box on top of the pan which is sitting on a multi-layer pad of cardboard. I place the comb in a large bag with tiny pores like a paint strainer inside the pan to catch small debris. Since most of the wax comes from the foundation (I think), I orient the comb vertically in the pan so that that wax can drain vertically. Remove the mostly dewaxed comb residue as it drains and replace with more until the pan approaches full. Finally, remove the bag and pour the melted wax through a strainer into a container. I put an inch of hot water in that container to catch and dissolve non-wax liquids on which the melted wax is floating. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:36:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: SHB, Varroa simultaneous control In-Reply-To: <200108221454.f7MEsIQ12908@listserv.albany.edu>; from Jkeim@WENGER.COM on Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 09:24:13AM -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Mann Lake sells a 5X5 pad to mount the Checkmite strip, in halves in their > online catalog. If I do a sugar shake and find a yard that needs varroa > control AND it happens to be one of my yards with bottom boards, will the > Checkmite poised for SHB control also control varroa? Looks doubtful to > me... > I lost two five frame nucs with the pad in place, it does not help much. There were a number of dead adult SHB under the pad but there were THOUSANDS of larvae in the comb. I have stacks of nasty supers stacked in the garage that I am allowing the larvae to fall to the ground before I clean up the frames and allow the bees to rob out the honey. The plastic bags I put under them are alive with SHB larvae. These are from failed hives as well as extraction. Having SHB larvae active in the hive seems to cause the queen to stop laying. I am considering pulling frames from such hives and putting in foundation to see if I can get one to recover. I am also trying to soak frames in brine (salt water) to kill the beetle eggs and larvae and get the frame back to the bees faster without having to scrap it down. What a mess. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 19:23:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <200108220041.f7M0fTQ17701@listserv.albany.edu>; from jaclark@NORFOLK.INFI.NET on Tue, Aug 21, 2001 at 06:04:29PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have had a number of hives trashed by SHB. As was mentioned the beetles are all around me down here but seem to only hit a weak hive. As for surviving the winter, I am not sure if they could overwinter in the hive but it could be possible. I find adults in every hive. I have seen hives that I thought were OK taken out by the beetle in a short time. You have to keep an eye on things. If you get a swarm the hive that swarmed can be lost in as little as two weeks. There could be an attractor between swarming and SHB such as reduced activity by house bees in cell preperation (for example). It is also very hard for a hived swarm to make it. Giving the bees too much super space may be a problem. I am starting new hives in nuc boxes instead of 10 frame equipment in an attempt to reduce SHB damage. A suprising test to see how bad SHB is: If a colony is found without brood put in a frame with some capped and some open brood. Come back in about 15 minutes. If SHB is in the hive the adults will be all over the brood. -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Small Hive Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Thanks to Al & Michael for sharing their stories from the SHB front lines. Sorry Carl, Larry & Barry the SHB is and can be a problem. The cleanup as Al points out is a huge problem. I take the SHB very serious and see the SHB as a threat to the way I process honey. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. For those which might have missed the first post: Small hive beetle found in Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: Peter John Keating Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter John Keating Subject: Re: Particals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've never had trouble straining before, but even after several strainings > with mesh and cloth, there are still lots of black specks floating around > in my honey. Hi Tim, I recently finished a 7 year contract as the technical adviser to the Quebec commercial beekeepers, and one of my projects was honey quality. I do not have time to explain everything but we did have trouble with specks, often stuck on the underside of the lid of the jar. We came to the conclusion that these specks were capping wax from dark combs which went through a 80 mesh screen diagonally and were visible to the naked eye. The simplest way to avoid the problem was a good settling. After extracting and passing through a good sump tank the honey should be settled in a large reservoir (tank) for at least 3 days at 30oC. This allows most of the impurities to either float to the top or settle to the bottom. I myself do not extract from brood combs and therefore never have this problem. A specialist in filtering told me that we can see particles after 100 micron filtering and recommended 50 micron filters. The 80 mesh for Canada No.1 is 177 micron. So you see that we are a long way from removing visible particles. Good luck, Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:35:34 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: SMR bee question Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all - I would like to pose to the entire list the same question I asked Bob H. a few days back. Is there anyone who is using the SMR stock planning to NOT use any chemicals on those bees to test the ability of this stock without the false results chemicals would give? If we are going to compare the different ways of dealing with varroa, the field should be a level one. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 07:35:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > If you somehow managed to breed a mite that easily reproduced in worker > cells, then this mite would, presumably, be better able to adapt > to breeding in 4.9 foundation. That assumption of perfect kill of drone > produced mites is quite a large one, however. Greetings - The "breeding of mites", at least when included with 4.9 cell size, has to also include those changes that have taken place to both the bees and their comb, as the two go hand in hand. You are not making changes in one while the other remains static, as you are with straight drone brood removal. Reports are now coming in from various people (me included) who have bees on 4.9 cell size, of worker brood being uncapped at the purple eye pupa stage at the time when substantial mite levels are seen in drone brood. Also being observed are drone pupa at the same purple eye stage or or late larvae stage being uncapped and chewed on, with the top half gone. This is something I have never observed prior to the use of small cell. The uncapped worker brood does not get chewed on, just the drone brood. Evidently this act of chewing out was written about in ABJ published in June, 1997 page 412. It is believed that bees will learn to control and develop this trait when given the chance. It seems they treat the worker and drone brood differently regarding varroa. There are some pictures of this posted at: http://www.beesource.com/mitechew/index.htm Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 05:39:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Karen & All, Although what I am about to say really does not pertain to the discussion many might find the story of interest. Last spring after answering a ad for bee equipment I appeared at the home of a beekeeper of over 25 years which had lost his bees to varroa and was selling out. I bought the items I was interested in but had a look at the other equipment for sale. When I looked at his deep brood chambers I was surprised to see the whole comb was drone but a very small oval in the center on all the frames and boxes. I asked him why all the drone? He replied the drone cells were his control for varroa. The varroa feeds on the drone and leaves the worker brood alone. A beekeeper *friend* in the south had shared his secret with him. Over half the box was drone comb. Although the boxes were in excellent shape, paint and the comb above average myself and friends were not interested because of the large amount of drone comb. After seven months of trying to sell the boxes they remain unsold. A normally fast moving item. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Experiment with a few hives but not all your hives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:42:31 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry asked if anyone is testing open-mated SMR stock for Varroa resistan= ce without also using chemicals. Barry, I am reasonably certain that Kir= k Webster is doing just that. He is not on this list, but I believe he i= s glad to talk about the subject and his results...which are still prelim= inary. If you do not know how to contact him, contact me privately and I will pr= ovide details. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:37:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Drone Brood as IPM measure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I wonder whether some of the concerns about an increased number of drones= and the additional work is justified: =20 1. A well-respected researcher shared with a group of us his work on the= # of drone cells in the brood nest and the effect on honey production. = I won't give his name as the data are still unpublished. He has demonstr= ated that normal hives will always contain 14%-22% drone cells. If the b= ees do not have this number they will make them by enlarging worker cells= or through burr comb. =20 The researcher set up two-hive pallets. In the spring he removed all= drone cells from each hive. In one hive he substituted drawn foundation= with no drone brood. In the other hive he provided drawn drone foundati= on so that drone cells amounted to 20% of total cells in the hive. This = experiment was run for three years. 15 pallets (30 hives) were used. Th= e results were the same in all three years, and the hives without drone c= ells averaged 100% more production than hives with drone cells! (60 poun= ds compared to 120 pounds.) Was the increased yield from not having to feed drone larvae, or fro= m having to fuel flying drones? This calculation turned out to be simple= , and the drop in yield in the hives with a normal drone load was due to = having to provide fuel to flying drones. There was only a minor drop in = yield from having to raise drone brood. =20 2. Varroa females do not enter cells until 1-3 days before they are seal= ed. Therefore if drone foundation is used the beekeeper only has to be o= n a once in three-week schedule for removal and freezing of larvae. More= over, the extended period that drones are in sealed cells (which is why t= he mites prefer the drone cells) means that if a beekeeper is few days or= even a week late that no damage is done as the cells will still be seale= d. =20 =20 I removed and froze drone foundation this year. I managed three cycles, = but should have done four. (We only get 5-6 cycles here in the Northeast.= ) Nonetheless, I killed "most" of the reproducing mites, while saving my= self a lot of honey from not having to fuel flying drones. This year, fo= r the first time I can remember, in mid-August I still have plenty of dro= nes in the hives...which I view as a healthy sign. (I will pull honey an= d treat beginning next week.) =20 I did this with approximately 75 hives this year. Two frames of drone br= ood a hive. This surely is impractical for commercial beekeepers, or for= sideliners with much more than 100 hives. However, it is certainly prac= tical for hobbyists. =20 As for selecting for mites that prefer worker cells. Think about the mat= h. Using 20% as the "natural" number of drone cells, that means the equi= vilant of 4 frames of drone cells out of a two-deep brood nest. If I sup= ply just two frames of drone foundation, I am only supplying 50% of the n= umber of drone cells likely to be used. Lot's of room for more drone lar= vae, while still killing lots of Varroa mites. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:31:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Drone Brood as IPM measure In-Reply-To: <200108241445.f7OEjsQ11755@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Lloyd Spear > The researcher set up two-hive pallets. In the spring he removed all= > drone cells from each hive. In one hive he substituted drawn foundation= > with no drone brood. In the other hive he provided drawn drone foundati= > on so that drone cells amounted to 20% of total cells in the hive. This = > experiment was run for three years. I'm curious about whether he noticed any other differences between the colonies. Do you know? Some say that Drones serve no purpose other than transportation of genetics between queens. Others wonder whether they might not benefit the hive in other ways that we do not know about. I find the question interesting - it would seem awfully inefficient to me if the drones provided no benefit to their parent colonies aside from passing on the genetics, especially in the view of the energy cost you mention. I have also heard that a colony with no drone cells to lay in will simply create some. In the experiment you mention the colonies were started without drone cells. Was that just to delay drone production, or was there little to no dr0one production throughout the season? > As for selecting for mites that prefer worker cells. Think about the mat= > h. Using 20% as the "natural" number of drone cells, that means the equi= > vilant of 4 frames of drone cells out of a two-deep brood nest. If I sup= > ply just two frames of drone foundation, I am only supplying 50% of the n= > umber of drone cells likely to be used. Lot's of room for more drone lar= > vae, while still killing lots of Varroa mites. You seem to be saying that as long as you leave some drone brood you cannot be selecting for mites that infect worker brood. I think that is faulty logic. *Any* removal of drone breeding Varroa applies pressure in that direction. If you remove 10% of them then you apply less pressure than if you remove 75%, but I think this just changes the rate at which the trait will evolve, not the direction you are heading. I am not a biologist - perhaps someone who is could jump in and comment on what I've just said. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:43:52 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@pilot.infi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: change of e-mail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee-L subscribers. I have changed my e-mail address due to change of browser. Please write to me at: DronbeeR@netscape.net Thanks. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:59:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites In-Reply-To: <200108241300.f7OD0WQ07693@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That does seem a little extreme. Not much room to raise workers and (to me) not a suprise that varroa wiped him out. I agree with limiting your experimentation. I have one hive that will get different treatment to see if it lives - it is from a survivor hive that had remained in this area untreated for over two years. Nasty tempered bees, but very high population when I retrieved it. I already use the shortening patties for tracheal mites and OMF on most of my hives. I'll probably be trying FGMO and monitoring to see if it ends up with heavy varroa. The rest get apistan for now, as I don't want to end up like the many in this area that lost 80-100% of their hives over the last year (some of which used apistan, but did not feed, which was required due to very early freezing that eliminated the goldenrod and aster flow last year). -Karen -----Original Message----- From: Bob & Liz ... Over half the box was drone comb. ... Ps. Experiment with a few hives but not all your hives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank asked "I have also heard that a colony with no drone cells to lay i= n will simply create some. In the experiment you mention the colonies were started without drone cells. Was that just to delay drone production, or was the= re little to no drone production throughout the season?" =20 My understanding was that the colonies produced some drones, but in one s= eason did not come near to a normal number of such cells. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:34:49 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: pollen : moisture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable can anyone suggest an optimum moisture content in pollen b4 packing for = human consumption? also, can anyone suggest a brand/model of "moisture = meter" that cld be used? =20 cheers, mark ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:00:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: Russian honey market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bee-liners; I am looking for information on the domestic Russian honey market. Production, consumption, preferences, prices, market contacts. Does anyone have any current information? Bill Lord -- William G Lord North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension 103 South Bickett Blvd., Louisburg, NC 27549 E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:51:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carmenie Stemmler Subject: Treating for Tracheal mite Hello Bee-liners, Got a quick question for the list... Here in Ontario we treat for mites using apistan in the fall, for varroa and formic acid in the fall, for tracheal and varoa, at least that is what is recommended, and what I have done so far. This spring the formic was left on for 2 weeks, instead of the usual three. I am wondering, is it advisable to treat again with it this fall, or can I just use the extender patties instead. What says the list? I don't have any experiance with the extender patties. Thanks for the help. O, and is it better to mix the TM in with it while I am at it. I have about 40 hives, in case that affects the reply at all. In case any of you followed my last question about my splits in one hive body, I am happy to say that I found most of them ready to take the second box, and will be giving them one and feeding them. The others I will boost with brood from other hives and do the same. Thanks to those that replyed to that question as well!! Cheers, Carm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:39:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone out there used this product? I decided on this rather than an escape board to eliminate handling supers twice. I just received shipment and there are no directions on the bottle. Thanks, Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Particals To Peter and Richard, thank you. I'm at a loss, I even tried putting a sample in the microwave and setting the jar by a hot window, but there's been no luck. I guess the idea is a 50 micron strainer. Could anyone help point me to a source? The particals don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether to float to the top or bottom. After all these years, including Bushmanland in South Africa with pure Apis m. scut. and Santa Maria California with extra mean German Black, I thought I was enough of an "old dude" to start back up as a "hobbiest with 100 hives who needs only to turn a moderate profit", but I can't sell any of what I've got now. Thanks again. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:27:48 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Particals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/24/01 11:07:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tvaughan@CHARTER.NET writes: > After all these years, including Bushmanland in South Africa with pure Apis > m. scut. and Santa Maria California with extra mean German Black, I thought > I was enough of an "old dude" to start back up as a "hobbiest with 100 > hives who needs only to turn a moderate profit", but I can't sell any of > what I've got now. > My customers look for the particles of pollen and wax on the top of the honey; that way they know it is real. Perhaps you could make up a computer side label explaining that YOUR honey isn't heated too hot and PRESSURE filtered to remove every bit of the good stuff. You have merely strained it. I firmly believe that the honey that wins the honey contest is not the best quality honey. It *should* look a bit cloudy, and have some particles floating on it. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http//pollinator.com Check out the beginnings of the new pictorial plant/pollinator database and some gorgeous new pics in the photo gallery.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:03:05 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeemanNick@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have tried this product, and i was not very impressed, it seemed to take a long time for the bees to leave, and there was always a good amount of bees left in them also. I didnt mind the smell, it was far better smelling than bee go, but i would much rather use bee go. Nick Iowa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:34:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: application of Bee Go MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use this product with a fume board with good results generally, as long as the weather is warm. However I have one person use it with a small spray bottle, lifting the inner cover and misting the top bars, then replacing the inner cover to drive the bees down. It works much more quickly than the fume board, but the bees seem to get a bit more annoyed than they would otherwise. I wasn't wild about "wetting" the top bars of the honey super either. /Curtis Hightstown, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:08:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: howard salliss Subject: Round comb production. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will be meeting with a beekeeping association group in Hungary. One of = the topics that they are interested in is round honey comb production. = As a beekeeper I am familiar with regular comb production but I have = never worked with round comb equipment, so any knowledge that I am able = to share with them is academic. Would anyone on the list who has had experience with round comb = production be willing to contact me off list and share any tips? give = any suggestions? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to this = product by way of hive management or by way of cost to the beekeeper and = consumer ? Thank you for any help you can give, Howard Salliss. Ont. Canada howardorjan@on.aibn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:19:44 -0400 Reply-To: Alan.Fiala@aya.yale.edu Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: ADFiala Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick Comments: To: cedavidson@NETONECOM.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I asked the list for advice last month on Bee-Go, which I found wasn't working for me. Early this week a friend brought over some Bee-Quick, and it worked like magic. It was really impressive, and has little noticeable odor. When we set the honey supers off, the few remaining bees continued to pour out. We were also able to use the fume board like a smoker when checking into the brood chambers. Alan Fiala ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:29:09 -0700 Reply-To: morharn@groucho.ctel.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: William Morong Organization: Morong's Harness Subject: Treating for trachael mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Relating to Carmenie's question. I used to treat for trachael mites with grease patties, which I have tried with peppermint oil, and with wintergreen oil. These have proved worthless. Since trachael mites attack my eyelids, I know within 5 minutes when a colony has them, and they were driving me crazy. I did the paper towels with menthol and canola oil in accordance with Dr. Amrine's directions, and have had no more trachael mites. The remaining problem is varroa mites. I did Apistan, properly, and found my colonies full of varroa a week after taking the strips out. Bill Morong ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:23:27 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Irish Beekeeping Discussion List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All In recent times the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List has moved from ListBot to Yahoo Groups. If you would like to join our very active list please send a blank e mail to: irishbeekeeping-subscribe@yahoogroups.co.uk Then when you are subscribed you can send a message to the List by sending an e mail to: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk You can log on to the Irsih Beekeeping Discussion List web site by visiting http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping There you can look at the archives to get a flavor of our discussions. We have beekeepers from all over the world on the List and we look forward to having you join us to further broaden our discussions. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 20:07:02 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Attila31@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WE tried that product and it did not do the job. Attila ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stimey Subject: screened bottom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anybody tell me what the threshold is in central NY, for varroa = counts on screened bottom boards with stick board? I tested 5 hives out = of 10 and had low counts in 24hrs. One hive had 1mite, Two had 3 One had = 4 and One had 5. I need to decide if I need to treat or wait till = spring. Does each mite that drops represent 100 more or is it higher. = All hives are avg. or stronger in two deep with from one to 4 shallows. = By the way goldenrod flow slow, not seeing any asters yet, conditions = dry. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:23:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: screened bottom MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, There are many different opinions on the subject. The way I was taught was by Marion Ellis of Nebraska in his talk "Living with varroa". In his method you do not need to pull supers right away and begin treatments with the numbers you got but with those numbers you should treat this winter. I have had excellent luck using Marion's method. Dr. Delaplane (Georgia) sees a much higher number before he treats BUT Dr. Delaplane doesn't winter in central New York. Many varroa are in sealed cells now so if I wasn't going to treat I would retest after brood rearing is done. I would say your mite load is typical of Missouri mite loads this time of year in production hives which were treated successfully last spring.. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. I would treat. > Can anybody tell me what the threshold is in central NY, for varroa = > counts on screened bottom boards with stick board? I tested 5 hives out = > of 10 and had low counts in 24hrs. One hive had 1mite, Two had 3 One had = > 4 and One had 5. I need to decide if I need to treat or wait till = > spring. Does each mite that drops represent 100 more or is it higher. = > All hives are avg. or stronger in two deep with from one to 4 shallows. = > By the way goldenrod flow slow, not seeing any asters yet, conditions = > dry. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:08:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: mite counts in central NY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am also in central NY, and would treat this fall. "Now" is not too soo= n and do not wait beyond sept. 15. At this time of the year, 2/3rds of mites present are in sealed cells. = Untreated, the females will leave the cells when the brood emerges. With= our recent 50 degree nights, the queen will no longer lay in drone cells= , so the female mites will invade worker cells. The workers hatched from= now until the end of October are those that you need to take the hives o= ver the winter...and they need to be strong, fully developed bees and not= weakened and possibly diseased by mites. The strips will not kill mites in sealed cells, so it is important that y= ou kill all you can in the few days that they are outside such cells. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:54:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Sticky Board count In-Reply-To: <200108260400.f7Q405Q10360@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" A sticky board gives a highly inaccurate estimate of the mite load. The hive may show low numbers if there are few mites, or if the colony is very weak. Also, the closer the cluster is to the board, the number may be higher. You need to do ether roll or sugar roll. There is no universally accepted threshold for mites. Generally, if you have mites you need to to treat. If you skip the treatments you may lose the hives. Most beekeepers treat the whole apiary because the mites spread from hive to hive. Peter Borst Ithaca, NY plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:56:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Particals Thanks to all who wrote with advise about the particals in my crop. Still don't know why it happened this time, but the panty hose trick seems to be working. Thanks again to all. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:07:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: WILLIAM G LORD Organization: N.C. Cooperative Extension Service Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used it in June and it worked well. It was also quite hot when I used it and almost all repellents work when it is hot. Bill Lord -- William G Lord, Area Specialized Agent, Environmental Education North Carolina State University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences North Carolina Cooperative Extension 103 South Bickett Blvd., Louisburg, NC 27549 E-Mail : william_lord@ncsu.edu Phone : 919-496-3344 Fax : 919-496-0222 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:29:33 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Graham & Annie Law Subject: Do Bees Store Wax ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (X-post with Irish List) A few days ago looking at my recently loaded observation hive I noticed something I had not seen before. It is well understood that bees pull the cappings over closed cells largely from an excess of wax around the lip of the cell, much as drawing a curtain. When the cell is uncapped the wax is 'rolled' back again. Not an exact technique as winter debris indicate bees uncapping stores, some fragments of chewed cool wax slipping past the uncapper's mandibles. When I loaded the hive this time I made a mistake, and like many times before, I found that when I got it wrong was when I learned something new. This time I misjudged the comb thickness and the top of one side of a brood comb jammed hard up against the glass blocking 90% of free movement of bees horizontally on that side of the frame. It was the arch of stored honey that was firmly touching, not brood, so I decided to leave it and see what happened. Within about 2 hours the bees systematically started to dismantle the comb, each cell being cut into and empted of honey. Then the cell was cut down accurately leaving the precise bee space to the glass. What I found interesting was each bee cutting down the cell would walk between 4-8cm away clutching a wax fragment and attach it to the edge of another cell. Not drawing the cell out but adding thickness to the lip. During this operation the bee seemed to loose more than 50% of the wax by dropping fragments to the floor. I'd bet it's documented somewhere but I could not find anything very specific. Hope someone finds the above interesting?, replies welcome. cheers Graham Graham & Annie Law Leicestershire UK... Email: Graham@gandboss.demon.co.uk Annie@gandboss.demon.co.uk Web Site: http://www.gandboss.demon.co.uk/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:14:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Particals Vanessa asks if the dark particals in my honey were due to rust from an old, although well scrubbed extractor. This is probably the answer, now that I think about it. So the new question is, What should I do? If there an easy answer, or should I be resigned to the hassle of difficult screening? Thanks Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:10:11 -0400 Reply-To: Marc Sevigny Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Sevigny Subject: AP - Beekeeper Killed. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Swarm of bees attack, kill beekeeper By Associated Press, 8/27/2001 01:06 FRANKLIN, Conn. (AP) A beekeeper has died following an attack by a swarm of bees that repeatedly stung him. Ernest Jennings, 54, died Sunday after he was covered by the bees. Deputy Fire Chief Clem Watson said a firefighter who responded had ''never seen anything like it in his life.'' Firefighters and an ambulance team approached Jennings only after using a garden hose to spray and disperse the insects, Watson said. It was not immediately known whether Jennings, whose interest in bees was a hobby, wore protective gear. George M. Purtill, a beekeeper in Glastonbury, said because honeybees die after stinging their victim, they do not likely sting without provocation. ''They have one shot and they're not going to waste it,'' he said. Jennings was a registered beekeeper with three hives, said Ira Kettle, state bee inspector. ''I can't understand it, what went wrong,'' he said. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:27:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: rust in honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim asked "if the dark particals in my honey were due to rust from an old, although well scrubbed extractor. This is probably the answer, now that I think about it." I don't normally "lurk", but I wondered about "rust" when Tim originally = posted. You certainly can do something about this...and, thankfully, it is relati= vely simple. Get some Dupont Corlar 25P epoxy paint. It will come with = a separate container of activator. Be very stingy in your initial mix as= it cannot be stored and it is tricky to judge the amount necessary. 25P is made for several specific applications, one of which is coating me= tals. One of its biggest attractions, IMHO, is that it is very forgiving= . For example, the instructions will tell you to remove every last parti= cal of rust (yeah, I know...if you could do that, you wouldn't need the 2= 5P). Thankfully, the 25P coating will hold just fine if you don't manage= to accomplish the removal of every last partical and just remove 90% or = so. I have used it twice on difficult applications and have been very pl= eased with the results. It comes in different colors, and don't let some clerk tell you otherwise= . Now, 25P will set you back about $75 a gallon. However, it is not food g= rade. I am told by a paint chemist that if you order the food grade epox= y version it will cost about 3X as much, and is the SAME THING. The surc= harge is for the possibility of liability issues. Obviously, I cannot sp= eak as to whether it is really the same thing. I know another beekeeper who used it three years ago to paint his 40's er= a extractor, and the coating still looks like new. (He used gray.) I think if you use this paint you will find that your difficulty with rus= t particles has disappeared. =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:06:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Joseph wrote: "I've just received a letter from our State Apiarist that also confirmed that the SHB had been found in South Central Virginia. We knew that it had been found in certain areas of North Carolina, but this bit of news makes it closer to home. I wonder about the hardiness of this beetle, and if it will be able to survive winters further north. I wonder if the adults would be able to insinuate themselves into the winter cluster of bees and remain warm enough to survive the winter, or if the bees would be able to move them from the cluster and let them freeze. I have found no evidence of SHB in my colony but I'm afraid it's just a matter of time for me, as well." The adult beetles survived the winter in MN a few years back in colonies that were brought from Georgia. They only survived in live colonies and only adults were found in the spring. It was a mild winter here but I'm sure it was more winter than you all have in Virginia. No evidence that the beetles were able to reproduce and spread here so far but the adults can survive winter in the honey bee cluster. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:38:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Varroa now in Dublin, Ireland Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Jim wrote in part: "b) So, if you detected 3 mites, and assume that this is 100% of "mites on bees", you may have 3 mites "in cells", and may soon have 10 to 15 mites (male mites die after mating, so you never would get a full 6 mite increase from every mating). From there, the numbers start to get scary, not matter what ratio of male to female mites you assume out of each "generation". Even a minimal "powers of 3" (where 3 reproducing offspring per female are created) rate leads to: 3, 9, 27, 81, 243, 729, 2187, 6561, 19683, 59049, 177147 " Hold on there Jim, take a look at the published research on varroa reproduction. The real numbers are considerably less than 3 daughter mites per mother per brood cycle. The most published numbers are in the 1.6 - 1.3 range which frankly is a pretty low reproductive rate for a mite. Now the varroa generation time is the length of a capped brood cycle or about 10 to 12 days so you will get a better idea of the population growth using 1.5 as the mulitplyer and 10 days as the generation time. This still will result in mite populations growing to damaging levels more quickly then you might think. Research also tells that more of the mites are in the brood than are on the bees at any given time if brood is present so a 3 mite drop is the result of more than 6 mites. A guess would be at least twice as many mites in the brood as on the bees. Here is an example starting with just 10 mites: 10, 15, 23,35, 53, 80, ..... this is for only 6 mite reproduction cycles or about 60 days. If you are looking at mite populations considerably higher which is usually the case here the mite population over the active bee season can get pretty impressive and the impact on the colony equally impressive. My point is Tom, don't panic about finding a few mites now but you do need to keep tabs on what is happening in your colonies and be ready to take measures to reduce the varroa population as it builds toward damaging levels. The real wildcard here is that you don't have any idea of the mite invasion rate ( number of varroa being brought into the hives from outside ) which can very quickly increase that population in the hive toward damaging levels. The good news is you found them early so have time to monitor levels and prepare for needed treatments and begin to learn about managing varroa in your colonies. Good luck. Beekeeping will survive varroa. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "William A. Bartlett" Subject: Re: Sticky Board count This past weekend we held our annual summer picnic meeting.( Assoc. Of Southern Maryland Beekeepers) The president of our organization had planned to do various tests to detect varroa in his hives. The hives were located on a large farm where he had about 12 hives. We pulled about 6 sticky boards and were only able to find one mite. We did an ether roll and found zero. We used about 150 to 200 bees from three different hives. He also demonstrated the powdered sugar method and again no mites. While we had the hives open we looked at some of the drone brood. No mites. Just makes you wonder what is going on. Any other people finding the same? Billy Bee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:03:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: mites in brood cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blane said "The real numbers are considerably less than 3 daughter mites = per mother per brood cycle. The most published numbers are in the 1.6 - = 1.3 range which frankly is a pretty low reproductive rate for a mite." Blane is, of course, correct. HOWEVER, I believe Blane's numbers are an = average of mites produced in both worker and drone brood. Drone cells ar= e capped for 3 days longer than worker cells, and that is why the mites p= refer them. If conditions are perfect, which they seldom are, I understa= nd a female can produce three daughters in drone brood; and can always pr= oduce two daughters (concerning only the time available). My understandi= ng is that in worker brood it take perfect conditions to produce two daug= hters and more normally only one can be produced. With numbers like 1 in worker brood and 2 in drone brood, it is clear why= mites have evolved to prefer drone brood. Keep in mind that females liv= e long enough to go through 3-4 entire cycles, and that more than 1 femal= e may be in a cell when it is sealed...you can see why numbers of mites e= xplode in late summer! Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:39:44 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Do Bees Store Wax ? In-Reply-To: <200108271305.f7RD5uQ17981@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:29 AM 8/27/01 +0100, you wrote: We can verify Graham's observation - we have often seen this in our large observation hive - the bees cut down the height of the cells to provide adequate space, and they do move wax around. We have also seen them partially pull out frames in outdoor, full-sized hives - then during a heavy nectar flow, we have seen them cut down the partially drawn cells, sometimes tearing them down almost to the foundation. Adjacent combs were being rapidly capped. Our guess, when the flow is coming in fast, they grabbed readily available wax to build up and cap cells, rather than simply draw out more comb. We discovered this while digitizing areas of wax and profiling how long it took them to pull out foundation. These were commercial beehives in large apiaries. When we looked at the data, we found that during the flow we lost drawn comb (the areas were reduced). Closer inspection showed us that foundation that they had been drawing out, but not completed, suddenly reduced dramatically. Cheers Jerry What I found >interesting was each bee cutting down the cell would walk between 4-8cm away >clutching a wax fragment and attach it to the edge of another cell. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:27:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ....... almost all repellents work when it is hot. > If this is the case, and the weather is moderating, what about using a propane torch to very lightly heat the top of the fume board? The one I just bought has aluminum on the top. Has anyone tried this? I don't have an extension cord long enough to run my hair dryer that far!! :) Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: mites in 2001 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable William said "No mites. Just makes you wonder what is going on. Any other people finding the sam= e?" I haven't seen a mite on my bees all year. I have looked many time by et= her roll and pulling drone brood. However, I was a bee inspector earlier= in the year and saw thousands in other hives. I know mites are there an= d am afraid to not treat, so I am going to treat. If they are not there,= there is no risk of them developing resistance. If they are there, I wa= nt to destroy all I can before production of final brood for the season. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Particals Thanks Lloyd and Richard. I followed Lloyd's advice and went to a paint store today. There is an added problem, that there is some old paint already on the 8 frame electric extractor. The people inform me that there's a sort of primer that I can use first, that should bond (to an extent) the original paint, which is flaking in places, so I shouldn't have to strip everything first. The manager feared that the epoxy paint would be too "hot", and lift the previous coat; he's checking into now, and we have an appointment tomorrow to see what he came up with. When I disassembled the extractor just now, I saw in addition to some rust and flakey paint, dried grease tucked away here and there, which also wasn't helpfull. I've got 80 hives on over 100 acres of lemons, and there's still lots of nectar out there, so the advice is really helpfull. Thanks one more time Tim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Particals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >and flakey paint, dried grease tucked away here and there, which also >wasn't helpfull. > >I've got 80 hives on over 100 acres of lemons, and there's still lots of >nectar out there, so the advice is really helpfull. Tim, You should consider buying a stainless steel extractor. With 80 hives it may not be worth straining rust and paint out of your honey. I'm sure you don't want a customer (wholsale or retail ) to find it. You can usually find a used stainless extractor for a few hundred dollars. marc studebaker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Coleene and All, > If this is the case, and the weather is moderating, what about using a > propane torch to very lightly heat the top of the fume board? Heat is what is lacking so any way heat could be given would help in my opinion.. >The >one I just bought has aluminum on the top. Has anyone tried this? They cook with aluminum pans so maybe the heat would not hurt but I really have never tried putting a torch to a aluminum covered top. > I don't have an extension cord long enough to run my hair dryer that >far!! :) Maybe a gasoline generator would work! Only kidding but would work and perhaps a generator lurks in the garage (left over from Y2K). Interesting ideas! Fume boards being less effective when the temperature moderates is a old problem. The solution for commercial beekeepers has been a fume board with a hole cut in it with a piece of vent pipe at a 90 degree angle. Place the fume board on the hive and turn the pipe in the direction the wind is blowing and watch those bees head for the entrance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:25:25 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Crutchfield Subject: Re: mites in 2001 In-Reply-To: <200108272321.f7RNLoQ11983@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I am in Missouri, Like William, I haven't had mites this year. Last year I had lost some hives, and some were weak going into winter with them. I checked , none in the drone brood, I am going to treat just in case Crutchfield Apiaries Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Marc Studebaker Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit what about using a >propane torch to very lightly heat the top of the fume board? Has anyone tried this? >Coleene > Put your fume board in a black garbage bag and set it in the sun about 10 minutes before you put on the repellent. marc studebaker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: mites in brood cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd And All, . > Drone cells are capped for 3 days longer than worker cells, and that >is why the mites prefer them. > With numbers like 1 in worker brood and 2 in drone brood, it is clear >why mites have evolved to prefer drone brood. Sorry I missed you Lloyd when you were in K.C.! Lloyd and I rarely disagree and I am sure Lloyd will agree with what I am adding. The above is *one* of the theories as to why varroa prefer drone brood. There are several other theories such as a possible difference in growth hormone between drone and worker larvae and a yet undiscovered trigger to name a couple. The key to varroa control might lie in finding why varroa prefer drone brood. I must add that Lloyd's hypothesis might be the correct answer. The key to why varroa reproduces less in the 4.9mm cell size *might* be simply due to the shorter time to a worker emerging. Many 49 ers (as they call theirselves) report workers emerging earlier than normal or in other words a shorter capping time with the small cell size . Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:51:18 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Coleen, Don't start a forest fire, burn your hives, or make your bees mad by using a propane torch. As you know, I tend to be blunt: Why use a product like Fishers, that is certainly not well known. If it was better than others, the bee researchers would have approved it, and the bee supply dealers would be selling it. I personally despise BEE-GO, which is butyric anhydride, and that odor is something you can never forget. Honey Robber, sold by Mann Lake, is Bee GO mixed with a strong scent of cherries, but it still STINKS. Both work fine in temperatures of 80° and more; but OH, THAT SMELL! However, for 30-40 years, I have used Benzaldehyde with is commonly called the oil of almonds, and it has a lovely smell. It works just great and maybe at a lower temperature than Bee-Go. The problem is that the Federal license to sell any of these products is so ridiculously high that most bee equipment companies only sell one product, and that is Bee-Go. Only Mann Lake sells benzaldehyde, but their smallest quantity is a gallon, which would be enough for several thousand colonies. MannLake has two local dealers in Michigan. Why don't you try them and see if they will sell you a pint? They are Blossomland Supply, 1-800-637-5262 at Berrien Center down near South Bend; and Groeb Farms, 517-467-7609 at Onsted. As I recall, you are somewhere near Cadillac. Maybe Mann Lake could tell you more, and their phone is 1-800-880-7694. I just hate to see you beginners get "hoodwinked", when reliable, proven, and endorsed products are out there for sale. I hope I have helped. George Imirie - keeping bees in Maryland for 69 years EAS Certified Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We are the "Fischers" in "Fischer's Bee-Quick". If instructions were not included with every bottle of Fischer's Bee-Quick, one can either request one from their dealer, or read the instructions at www.bee-quick.com (we even put the website address on the label...) It is a surprise to us that any dealer would forget to include the instruction sheet, so we will make sure that all dealers are aware that instruction sheets are packaged in every case, and have not thrown them away in error or ignored them. (Hey, it may be hard for them to find good help these days...) The lack of instructions may be the reason why some people have posted reports of less than excellent results, while others have reported excellent results. As for the temperature factor, we have found that the ambient temperature is not as important as the amount of sun. We suggest painting one's fume board top black to maximize the effect of solar radiation, and we do suggest placing the fume board in the sun to "pre-heat" the metal top, and hence, the fume pad. (The black plastic bag suggestion is also a good one.) If anyone is not happy with the performance of Fischer's Bee-Quick, we'd like to hear about your experience. Please send an e-mail to bee-quick@bee-quick.com. We need all the input we can get. We'd also like to point out that there is one instruction that is found ONLY on bottles of Fischer's Bee-Quick: "Full Refund If Not Satisfied" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:32:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one wants to avoid using glass in a solar wax melter, one cannot do better than Dupont Tefzel plastic. I used it to glaze my main greenhouse here at Farmageddon, and as a winter replacement for the screens on my front porch. The stuff is nearly bullet-proof. If mounted properly in a sturdy wooden frame, this plastic (no thicker than the clear plastic covers that the airlines put on magazines) can take wind-blown branches, the occasional baseball, and driving wind and rain without any problem. My strongest friend cannot rip Tefzel. One must cut it with a knife. As far as long-term weathering goes, I know of a greenhouse that stood for 15 years on Cape Cod (Massachusetts, USA) without the Tefzel turning yellow or breaking down in the sunlight. (At the now-defunct New Alchemy Institute near the town of Woods Hole) Getting the stuff is a pain, and it is not cheap. One must order from DuPont directly, and they really do not like small quantity orders. But they WILL send any number of 8 1/2-inch by 11-inch "samples" to anyone who asks, free of charge, and one can make a rather nice wax melter with just one sample kit from DuPont if one is willing to make up two or three small double-glazed "windows" using these samples. hey, "better living through chemistry" really DID happen :) jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:34:05 -0300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Sharon Labchuk Subject: Fischer's Bee-Quick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What's in Fischer's Bee-Quick and other such repellants? Sharon Labchuk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:31:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick In-Reply-To: <200108280405.f7S45qQ24380@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, Fishers is available from at least one bee supply place, since that is where I got mine. Since my bees are in afternoon shade, it didn't work very well, despite temps in 90's. The smell is strong oil of almonds, with a little cherry overtone (almost exactly like an almond oil hand creme from Burt's Bees). So, I tried a different approach on some other hives. A screen escape used for 48 hrs, so there were fewer bees in the supers -- it did run the last ones out pretty quick. After removing the super from the hive and setting off on a cover for a few seconds, most of the last ones ran off and showed no sign of wanting back in. At the very least, it was a pleasant smelling afternoon. -Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:21:09 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mites in 2001 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We have good years and bad years with varroa mites My theory is the most virulent mites killed the colonies they infested. Last winter saw heavy losses in many parts of the country taking both colony and their parasites with them. This leaves mites that are less damaging or slower to damage to their hosts. After all a good parasite doesn't kill it's host if it will die with it. Coincidence and causality are two different things but in the long run there is no advantage to varroa in killing off all of the honeybees. Cun grano salis Tom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: dupont plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable James said: "But they WILL send any number of 8 1/2-inch by 11-inch "sam= ples" to anyone who asks, free of charge, and one can make a rather nice wax melter with just one sample kit from DuPont if one is willing to make up two or three small double-glazed "windows" using these samples." Can you share an address where one can make such a request. If you don't= feel you should share it with the list, can you send it to me privately? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:43:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: rust in honey In-Reply-To: <200108271927.f7RJRcQ02587@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tim and All, A few years ago I used Camcoat, a product sold by bee equipment dealers, to coat the inside of an extractor. Camcoat is food grade and is made for such applications, it is a ready mixed epoxy and is clear. I used the extractor for a couple of years 'till I bought a new one, I then gave it away and it is still in use three years later with the same coating of Camcoat. If I remember correctly the price of the quart is less than $20.00. Hope this helps, Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: drying pollen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Among those I talk to, it has always been assumed that over-drying causes= pollen to lose its sweet taste. It is well accepted that bees mix polle= n with nectar during the collection process and that "fresh" or "fresh fr= ozen" pollen is quite sweet tasting. However, pollen that is "crunchy" (= most pollen found in stores) is quite bitter and those I talk to have ass= umed that both the "crunchy" and the bitter is related to over drying. =20 I have confirmed the relationship by accidentally over drying pollen, wit= h the expected results. Several weeks ago someone suggested that this relationship should not exi= st as drying should do no more than remove moisture, leaving behind any s= ugars. So...over dried pollen might be crunchy, but should not be bitter= . Sounds right to me. Anyone have any idea why over dried pollen is, in fact, bitter to the tas= te? Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 07:53:59 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Rejected BEE-L Posts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please consult http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ for our rules before posting to BEE-L -- and especially before replying to BEE-L articles if you are not familiar with our guidelines. In particular, BEE-L guidelines *prohibit* quoting material from previous articles unless it is *absolutely* necessary to understanding subsequent statements made in the current post and/or part of an interlaced dialogue or rebuttal, or the article in question is not recent. The reason for this prohibition is immediately obvious to anyone who visits our archives and who attempts research there (an activity that is highly recommended). Quoted material results in bogus redundant 'hits' and confuses searches. There is actually normally no need whatsoever to quote material, since all previous articles are available in threaded form in the archive. Unfortunately, most email software automatically includes the entire original article, including signature -- and sometimes headers -- in each reply. While few people would bother to type all that material into their reply, few also seem to take the time to delete it or trim it to one or two lines. Of those who do trim the quotes, many seem to leave far more than is actually relevant or meaningful. The result -- if it is not rejected -- is a huge volume of redundant and confusing material going into our archive. Although there has been some latitude permitted on this point in the past and there surely will be in the future, lately, I have simply been deleting many such submissions without comment and without notice -- other than this one note. Other moderators may choose to act differently. We are independent and don't always agree, but if you wish to be certain to have your comments reach BEE-L and be read, please avoid -- or drastically minimize -- quotes in your submissions. allen A BEE-L janitor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:10:30 +0100 Reply-To: p.walton@videonetworks.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul Walton Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick In-Reply-To: <200108281115.f7SBFaQ01818@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The web site for Fischer's Bee-Quick is at: http://www.bee-quick.com/ I bought some from Thornes of Wragby and used it to clear some of my supers about a month ago. It seemed to work alright. I was intrigued, however, when plywood boards that I had sprayed with "bee quick" were left in the apiary to air. On a subsequent visit, I observed quite a few bees licking at the boards. I communicated this observation with the manufacturers who were as suprised as I was. The best explaination that they were able to come up with was that the sugar residue from the extracts used in bee quick had attacted the bees. Very strange! Paul Walton Bedfordshire, England Sharon Labchuk asks:" What's in Fischer's Bee-Quick and other such repellants?". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:12:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Forrest Zielke Subject: Re: mites in brood cycle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (The key to why varroa reproduces less in the 4.9mm cell size *might* be simply due to the shorter time to a worker emerging. Many 49 ers (as they call theirselves) report workers emerging earlier than normal or in other words a shorter capping time with the small cell size .) Bob and Lloyd. This is my first post but have long enjoyed reading this list and have learned very much. I agree with your discussion. One other factor about cell size. I think research proved that if a mite defecates on the pupa, the female mite is reluctant to lay eggs on the pupa. The mites feed on the pupa as the pupa lays on it’s back with feet up. The mite only feeds for a short time then moves up above the pupa and kind of hangs out and defecates on the upper cell wall. Could it be that the cell size being smaller, the pupa fills up more of the interior space and mite feces gets on the pupa and the female mite will not lay eggs. Another thought is as the pupa turns around and around to spin the cocoon, do they scrape the mites off. Keeping the mites on the outside of the cocoon. Do they turn around in the cell? Could it be that some of the research being done now is to duplicate mite feces and somehow placing this in the hive either through wax foundation or feeding? I thank you in advance. Forrest Zielke Ashland, MA islandjumper@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:16:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Varroa now in Dublin, Ireland In-Reply-To: <200108272053.f7RKr5Q05348@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And the numbers given assume mites never die off, not have multiple generations of offspring. Evan at the lower reproduction rates, the # of mites can increase explosively (if not quite exponentially). Here is a simple spreadsheet, based upon different reproduction rates (# viable females per generation) which assumes each mite reproduces three times (seems to be a good average). Sorry about the formatting on the larger #'s. As you can see, at the lower rate of 1.3, mites still get large (greater than # of bees) populations after say 18 generations - but this is most of the reproduction year at 12 days per generation (216 days). With perfect reproduction of 3 mites per cell, the same levels are exceeded in 10 generations - only 120 days. Generation Reproduction Rate 1.30 1.60 2.00 2.50 3.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 2.00 2.30 2.60 3.00 3.50 4.00 3.00 5.29 6.76 9.00 12.25 16.00 4.00 9.87 14.98 24.00 39.38 60.00 5.00 19.70 34.78 66.00 129.06 228.00 6.00 38.44 79.61 180.00 421.09 864.00 7.00 77.89 185.61 495.00 1,378.89 3,280.00 8.00 156.52 431.11 1,359.00 4,512.21 12,448.00 9.00 316.90 1,004.33 3,735.00 14,770.63 47,248.00 10.00 638.15 2,335.65 10,260.00 48,344.91 179,328.00 11.00 1,286.89 5,434.40 28,188.00 158,240.57 680,640.00 12.00 2,590.97 12,639.05 77,436.00 517,937.54 2,583,360.00 13.00 5,220.36 29,400.11 212,733.00 1,695,271.39 9,805,120.00 14.00 10,514.73 68,383.53 584,415.00 5,548,815.05 37,215,232.00 15.00 21,184.50 159,065.09 1,605,501.00 18,161,913.29 141,250,048.00 16.00 42,676.74 369,990.49 4,410,612.00 59,446,028.03 536,113,152.00 17.00 85,979.46 860,618.37 12,116,790.00 194,573,695.28 2,034,812,160.00 18.00 173,212.28 2,001,835.70 33,287,112.00 636,862,089.66 7,723,109,376.00 19.00 348,956.09 4,656,366.78 91,446,003.00 2,084,522,912.21 29,312,985,088.00 -----Original Message----- From: Blane White Hold on there Jim, take a look at the published research on varroa reproduction. The real numbers are considerably less than 3 daughter mites per mother per brood cycle. The most published numbers are in the 1.6 - 1.3 range which frankly is a pretty low reproductive rate for a mite. Now the varroa generation time is the length of a capped brood cycle or about 10 to 12 days ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:24:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Walton said: > On a subsequent visit, I observed quite a few bees licking at the > [fume] boards. I communicated this observation with the manufacturers > who were as surprised as I was. And we still are "surprised". We cannot reproduce what Mr. Walton saw no matter what we do. Bees do unusual things at times, as this list's archives can prove. George Imirie said: > Why use a product like Fishers, that is certainly not well known. George, we only introduced the product this spring! We don't expect to be "well-known" just yet, but you might have seen one of the ads that ran all summer in Bee Culture and ABJ. > If it was better than others, the bee researchers would have > approved it, Many have, but we would not ask them to "endorse" our product. Such things can make a researcher look less-than impartial to his/her potential research funding sources. > and the bee supply dealers would be selling it. They are. The oldest and most respected firms were the first to carry the product. All of them tested it themselves before they offered it to the public. Karen Oland said: >Actually, Fishers is available from at least one bee supply place, > since that is where I got mine. The list of dealers that carry Fischer's Bee-Quick is growing faster than we can track, but includes at least (as of 8/28/01): In the USA: Dadant and Sons (Wholesaler to other dealers) (Various offices around the US) http://www.dadant.com Fisher's Bee Supplies (No relation to us) Smithville MO Rossman Apiaries Moultrie GA http://www.gabees.com/ Mid-Con Agrimarketing Olathe, KS http://www.mid-conagri.com Wood's End Inc Weston CT Bee-Commerce http://www.bee-commerce.com In the UK: Thorne and Co. (Wholesaler to other dealers) (Various offices around the UK) http://www.thorne.co.uk In Europe: Swienty A.S (Wholesaler to other dealers) ...and an unknown number of dealers who have bought from wholesalers, but not yet contacted us. George Imirie also said: > I just hate to see you beginners get "hoodwinked", when > reliable, proven, and endorsed products are out there for sale. That was a more than a tad unfair. George, if you think that we (and Dadant, and Thorne, and all the rest) are trying to "hoodwink" anyone, you should see our ads, our website (http://www.bee-quick.com), and our bottle. All say, in large letters: "Full Refund If Not Satisfied" Funny how "the other guys" don't have any such thing on their labels. ...Of course, there simply is no room on their bottles, once they put all the "toxic" and "hazard to health" warnings on. :) jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:04:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Fred Born Subject: Re: help!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help! I'm new at this with 2 hives. Checking one of them this afternoon I noticed lots of brood in my lowest supers and I have been using a queen excluder. Couldn't find the queeen - haven't been able to find her since I got the hive - but assume she is doing her job because the hive has increased in size very well. I have 2 medium supers on the hive and brood is only in the first(lowest) one and the brood chamber. The only thing I can think I might have done, maybe is put the excluder in the wrong place and queen got up. Now what do I do!!!!!! fred crystal river, fl 2 hives - amatuer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 12:03:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: dupont plastic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd said: > Can you share an address where one can make such a request. Sure... DuPont High Performance Films US Route 23 & DuPont Rd. PO Box 89 Circleville, OH 43113 800-356-6714 Ordering Info 800-967-5607 Product Info 800-237-4357 jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:08:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: PR: The buzz on how bees sustain our diets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A recent article on honeybees from our local paper. Not all press is bad. -----Original Message----- Subject: The buzz on how bees sustain our diets The buzz on how bees sustain our diets By Douglas Hullander The human race depends on the regal honeybee to pollinate many of the fruits and vegetables that make up the diet of every person on the planet. The bee also plays a big role in meat production. For example, alfalfa makes up 50 percent of the diet of beef cattle, and alfalfa is 100 percent pollinated by bees. Insects are the most prolific pollinators. According to some estimates, these six-legged critters - with bees leading the way - are directly responsible for producing about four of every five bites of food we put in our mouths. The other 20 percent of our diet, including mostly grains and nuts, is mostly wind-pollinated. Pollination - also known as fertilization - is the process by which the "male" gametes, pollen grains, combine with the "female" gametes, the ovule, to produce an embryo, a seed that has the potential for developing into a new and complete plant. The seeds are usually contained within, or in some cases on, the fruit itself. The fruit is really the ripened ovary, and its chief purpose is in the dispersal of the seeds. Many flowering plants have both male and female reproductive organs and are, therefore, capable of self-fertilization. Such in-breeding is usually not desirable because it eliminates the chance that new genes might be introduced into futures generations, and that means variability in offspring is sacrificed. Cross-pollination, the exchange of genetic material between different plants, is much preferred, and that's where insects come in. In their search for nectar, insects first make contact inadvertently with the anther of a flower. The anther is the source of pollen grains, and brushing up against this organ transfers pollen grains to the insect's body. The insect flies off to a second plant, where the pollen grains are rubbed off onto the plant's stigma, the female organ. The second plant has just been fertilized. Bees in particular are well suited for this task because their bodies are the right size for entering the flowers, and they are driven to seek out nectar in a wide variety of plants. Their vision is thought to be sensitive to ultraviolet light, a feature that causes certain plants to "stand out" in the crowd. Bees zero in on the plants, extract their nectar and spread their pollen. Bees have other special "equipment" that helps in the collection process: fuzzy hind legs with branching hairs and in some cases pollen combs and "baskets" on hind legs, all of which make transporting pollen to and from plants more efficient. Many species of bees are solitary, but others prefer to live and work in colonies of 100,000 or more. (Those wishing to learn more about bees and beekeeping can attend the Tennessee Honey Festival from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Saturday, Sept. 1, at the American Museum of Science and Energy in Oak Ridge.) Knoxville writer Douglas Hullander writes "Science in Your World" weekly for the News-Sentinel. He can be reached by e-mail at doughullander1@home.com, or you may write to him in care of the News-Sentinel, P.O. Box 59038, Knoxville, TN 37950-9038 August 27, 2001 Copyright 2001, KnoxNews. All Rights Reserved. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:58:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: particals and mite counts Does anyone have, or know of someone who has, a stainless steel electrical extractor for at least 8 frames? tvaughan@charter.net Thanks As to several posts about the absence of mites, the hives I just got had been neglected for at least 1 year, and many are crawling with mites. I suspect that those of you with few or no mites are reaping the benefits of diligent control. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:36:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: stephen and gail mitchell Subject: pollination/fertilization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I must try to clarify some misconceptions which were posted earlier today. Pollination is definitely not the same as fertilization. It is the transfer of pollen from an anther to a stigma. These structures may be on the same flower or inflorescence, or, on different plants. Some species are self-compatible (e.g. violets) but most are outcrossers. Wind, water, insects, birds and mammals effect the transfer of pollen in flowering plants. Fertilization is the union of one male gamete with the egg,or female gamete, in the embryo sac which is housed in the ovule which in turn, is enclosed within an ovary. The other male gamete is involved with development of endosperm, a source of embryo nutrition. The result of gamete union of course is the embryo. A seed, for purposes of this discussion, may be considered to be a "mature" ovule. It is comprised of an embryo, stored food, and one or two protective layers (seed coat). In flowering plants, all seeds are borne within "mature" ovaries or fruit. This is the distinguishing feature which separates flowering plants from gymnosperms (pine, fir). The reproductive biology of flowering plants is intriguing and messy - worse than honey bees!! Steve Mitchell Steve and Gail Mitchell Van Isle Apiaries 4820 Wilson Rd. Duncan, BC V9L 6L6 Phone(250)746-9916 Fax (250) 746-9233 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 10:59:18 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Full supers, empty brood boxes In-Reply-To: <200108281604.f7SG4SQ13836@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm a hobbyist, and started my 4th colony this year from a nuc. They built up in a hurry, and when I added the first super I realized I didn't have a 4th queen excluder, so I went without. They quickly filled two medium supers, which I extracted. They then filled 1 1/2 more before the flow ended, and I added a third to give them space But when I inspected them last week, I found three full supers, and virtually no honey in the brood boxes. The queen is still doing very well, mostly in the upper chamber, but other than brood and pollen, both boxes are very light. I have two questions: 1) I've heard queen excluders referred to as "honey excluders", but I thought the bees would still fill the brood boxes first before moving up. Is it possible the bees moved honey upstairs after the honey flow was over, and if so, why? (My other hives added no honey during the time this 3rd super was filled.) 2) How do I rectify the situation? Should I put one of the full supers between the brood boxes for them to subsist on till the fall honey flow? I'd hate for the queen to move into my supers, but I don't want to have to feed them sugar syrup either. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:57:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Full supers, empty brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Did the colony swarm during the season? Try reversing the upper and lower brood chambers to get the queen laying in both chambers. Don't put a honey super between the brood chambers. How do you rectify the situation? Get the queen laying in both brood chambers. Either by reversing or just move brood down into the lower. Check your queen to see if she was superceded of is failing! You say you don't want to feed sugar syrup. Why not just leave the honey supers on if light. That is food last I checked. I manage my bees in triple brood chambers. You my want to give it a try. You will rarely need your queen excluder this way and feeding is easy as they are feed by themselves. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:01:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: bloodsugar vs honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All, I'm down in honey production a bit here in Eastern Ontario. I pulled on = average 56lbs off the first extraction. Looks like I'm going to get = about another 50 on my final extraction. I'm usually about 130lbs/hive. = My hives were not very strong this spring plus I did some heavy = manipulations so I missed the maples and dandelions. Also, the = extremely dry summer didn't help. I also have noticed only 1-4 mites in = 24 hrs on my boards. I'm not sure how to interpret that until the = Apistan goes in this fall. My question to the group is this.. My = father, who loves jams (and honey) has found that his blood sugar level = is to high. Geeze wonder why since jam is mostly sugar :). Anyway is = there a difference between cane sugar and the sucrose ( glucose & = fructose) found in honey? He is wondering if he switches to honey if = the different sugar will affect his blood sugar level. The doctor = thinks they are the same. But I had thought that honey wouldn't have the = same affect has cane sugar.=20 Thanks Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: Small Hive Beetle In-Reply-To: <200108272048.f7RKmwQ05261@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Friends, I am not at all surprised to hear that the beetle is all up and down the Eastern Seaboard. I live in central Florida and received my infestation of beetles last year from a commercial New York beekeeper who winters his hives in our area. People are spreading these things around. I know of a Florida beekeeper who has California almond pollination contracts. He works his bees all across the country. I expect we will get Africanized bees here soon, as a result of a return trip in the near future. I am absolutely sure that California will be complaining soon. We are all going to be learning a lot in the near future. <> I have observed these little demons for hours. They are small enough to run down into an empty cell and turn around. Their shape is such that the bees can't grab them. The beetles congregate in the spaces on top of frames either in the front or back of the hives and in spaces between the frames. The larvae will do the same. Sometimes you can see hundreds of adults in a pile on top of the frames. They boil out when you pop the cover on them. They fly readily and you will bring them in on your clothing at times. The bees seem powerless to remove the adults. The adult beetles move about the frames at will with the bees harassing them. I have never seen a bee get a hold of a beetle. I would assume, at this point, that the beetles will survive just fine in the hives, through the winter. The adults are no problem, compared to the larvae. I believe the adults are carnivorous. I have seen them grabbing their own larvae. The larval cycle is what tears up your combs. They love to eat their way through the capped cells of brood, pollen, and honey. If they get ahead of the bees' ability to clean up the mess, the hive can be lost in a matter of a week or two. The brood putrefies, the honey ferments and runs out the entrance or through the bottom, and the bees may abscond, leaving supers full of honey. It is a real stinking mess. I've had it happen in my yard. The commercial guys tell me they are not much of a problem, because they are moving their hives all the time. The beetles are not able to build up enough to cause real problems. The commercial guys leave the area and the young beetles lose the host hives because they are pupating in the ground when they leave. Perhaps the beetles will die without the host hives, I dunno yet. The larval beetles will pupate in any debris, not just the soil. I have seen them pupate on top of a debris covered concrete block, under the hive. I am learning to use my new digital camera now. I will try to take a few pictures soon and post them, so you can get an idea of what you are going to be dealing with. These things are here now and we will just have to deal with it. Bob Bassett - Just dealing with it, best I can. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:34:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey In-Reply-To: <200108282208.f7SM8gQ29774@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >there a difference between cane sugar and the sucrose ( glucose & = >fructose) found in honey? When I took high school chemistry, we were told that sucrose is a more complex molecule than either glucose, dextrose, or fructrose, which are simple sugars. The body converts sucrose to glucose as part of digestion. If you eat glucose, the body doesn't have to convert it, but will use it. In biology, we were told that these simple sugars are all pretty much the same, the difference in how the individual atoms are arranged in the molecule. Based on what I was taught, I believe your doctor is correct. Joe > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:38:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Full supers, empty brood boxes In-Reply-To: <200108281801.f7SI18Q17849@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You could uncap the honey in that 3rd super and put back on the hive for the bees to draw down. To help encourage that, put inner cover on top of brood box, then empty box, then super with uncapped honey, then top cover (add a second inner cover, if you have one). When uncapping that honey, work quickly with an unheated knofe or scratcher or you'll get other bees started in a robbing attempt. Also, make sure there are no cracks or holes they can use to enter the hive above the inner cover and rob the honey away from this hive. Either tape up, or stuff full of grass if you find any (or the bees find them for you -- one hive I had drawing down had this problem earlier). Or, if you are going to treat with fumidil for nosema, take that honey home with you and feed syrup now - two gallons per hive for treatment (according to my label). Remember that if you leave the honey super on and treat with apistan (or presumably any of the other chemicals), you not only can't use any of the honey, but can't use that super for honey production in the future (possibly you could melt all the wax and boil/burn everything out and maybe get all the residue out so that you could get fresh foundation drawn out for next year). -Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:25:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey In-Reply-To: <200108282217.f7SMH5Q29965@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies to those not interested in discussion of diabetes. No reply address available for Kent S. However, diabetes is becoming huge health problem in the US. Kent, The effect is different, but not necessarily good. I suspect he is also putting that jam and honey on white bread and biscuits, right? These refined flour products, as well as white rice, act just like table sugar in the bloodstream. My dat can't eat white bread much, but can eat true whole wheat bread (in moderation - 1/2 of a large pizza is a little too much ). If he tries to modify his diet to eliminate all refined flour and rice, he will probably be able to still have jamd and/or honey in moderation (typically, no more than four carbohydrate rich servings of any food per meal -- even counting things like beans). Dad's downfall is fresh fruit (peeled). Potatoes w/o the peel are "bad", while with the peel is ok, throw out most of the inner portion and they are fine. What is important is for him to keep a diary - what he ate (including was it refined, peeled, fried, etc), realistic est of portion size, did he take medication and the amount of any excercies just before or in 1 hr after eating. Then 1 hr later, check blood sugar and record it. The Dr probably has him tracking this (some people don't do this enough, if their insurance doesn't cover the supplies - I would imagine you won't have problems with this) - the food diary is more work and trouble, but then he will start getting a true picture of what he can and cannot eat without his blood sugar going insane. Some foods just need moderation or excercise to balance. Things like ice cream in a waffle cone are pretty much taboo (dad din't like this one, he loved ice cream). The education classes help some, but are dumbed down for the americans that are (1) unwilling to invest time learning what to eat and (2) geared towards how to cope with the bad food choices of eating out and typical american pantries. I would assume same is generally true where you are. It is important not to have the attitude of "what can I get away with eating on a regular basis, so long as it is sort of controlled by medication". Instead, it should be - how can I change my diet and lifestyle to get this condition under control and what can I reasonably have on an occasional basis when dining out or for special occasions? Constantly having blood sugar at the upper levels can cause organ damage and is a high factor for heart disease due to plaque buildup. I now several people that have had several mini-strokes from non-control, others that have passed out (many people lose their driver's license, and rightly so, with this condition) and those that have had problems with leg and foot wounds/problems due to circulation problems. -K. Oland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:41:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FUME BOARDS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit These are not a thing I use but I imagine the fumes are volatile. Some might even be inflammable. I suggest a hot water bottle might be the safest way of applying warmth. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:41:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Particles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I get them and I use a plastic extractor. If I see one in a jar I often take a clean plastic straw, put a finger over the end and lower the straw through the honey until the other end is directly above the particle. I then release the finger and the particle is drawn up into the straw. The finger is then re applied and the straw and contents removed. The alternative method is to stick the label where the particle is. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:20:43 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also, the sucrose enters the bloodstream by passive transport(osmosis) which means excessive amounts of sucrose can enter the blood too quickly while the smaller molecules in honey sugars enters the blood by active transport. This means it requires energy and time to enter the bloodstream so there is less likely of a chance for high blood sugars. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone! I wasn't really going to dispute what the doctor had said but I always like to verify as much as possible. Yes Karen, he eats it with just about everything :) Every morning. The doctor has put him a regimented diet. She is starting with reducing his intake to a more "human amount" :) The she is taking his reading again. You should have been able to reply to me directly though. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:29:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: help!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred Born said: > I have 2 medium supers on the hive and brood is only in the > first(lowest) one and the brood chamber. > The only thing I can think I might have done, maybe is put > the excluder in the wrong place and queen got up. Here's my suggestions, but wait for a few more answers to be posted before you run out to the hive. Someone else may have a better approach. a) Time to harvest - take the top super off for extraction. b) Inspect the lower super for sealed brood and eggs. Looking for eggs is much easier than looking for the queen. This is best done in strong sunlight, holding the frame so that the sun shines down into the cells. (I only "look for the queen" when I want to re-queen. The rest of the time, I simply inspect her egg-laying. In my view, going on a "queen hunt" is simply disruptive to the hive.) c) If you see eggs above the queen excluder, the queen is above the queen excluder, or you have two queens in your colony. Perhaps you can enlist the help of a more experienced beekeeper to help you find out if you have two queens or one. d) If no one will help, I guess you will have to simply remove the queen excluder, and let nature take its course. You certainly do not want to "trap" the queen (if only one) above the queen excluder, and two queens will either co-exist, or fight it out. e) In all your manipulations, be careful, and look out for the queen. If you see her, don't "loose" her. Either capture her (which takes quite a bit of skill in itself) or chase her down to the "brood hive area" below where the queen excluder was. f) To prevent more egg laying in the lower-super frames that you wish to harvest, remove any frames that have neither sealed brood or eggs, and replace them with drawn comb. If you have no drawn comb, extract the honey from the topmost super, and use those (now empty) frames to replace the ones you remove. g) After the brood hatches, you can then harvest the remainder of the frames in the lower super. Complex, I know, but this is not a simple situation. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:17:50 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robt Mann Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey In-Reply-To: <200108282208.f7SM8gQ29774@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >is = >there a difference between cane sugar and the sucrose ( glucose & = >fructose) found in honey? He is wondering if he switches to honey if = >the different sugar will affect his blood sugar level. The doctor = >thinks they are the same. They certainly are not the same. I'm not a medico, but used to teach what little nutrition was in a medical course. I'd say he should try honey. R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:56:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: Fischer's Bee-Quick In-Reply-To: <200108250300.f7P30oQ02387@listserv.albany.edu>; from cedavidson@NETONECOM.NET on Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 07:39:53PM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 07:39:53PM -0400, Coleene E. Davidson wrote: > Has anyone out there used this product? I decided on this rather than an > escape board to eliminate handling supers twice. I just received shipment > and there are no directions on the bottle. > The product was talked about one the list a while ago and I ordered a bottle to see how well it worked. I have found it to work "as well" as Bee-Go. That is, I have had it do a good job at times and fail at others :). For the majority of times I have found it to work well and without the smell of Bee-Go. For working my remote locations it is the only thing I could allow inside my van. I cannot compare it to the "Oil of Almonds" that George mentions as I have not tried it (it would take years for me to use the smallest size available). -- | There is no doubt we need government in our lives. There is also no doubt that we need salt in our diet. Watch out for too much of either one. AA4YU http://www.beekeeper.org http://www.q7.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:14:50 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joseph A. Clark" Subject: Fwd: Sugars Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Mr. A.J. deLange asked me to forward this to the digest, so here it is: >I cannot post to the digest (for reasons I don't understand) so pass >this on if you like. > >Glucose and fructose are monosaccharides i.e. simple sugars each >comprising a simple ring structure. Sucrose is a disaccharide formed by >joining one glucose and one fructose molecule (eliminating a water >molecule in the process) and is thus approximately twice the size of a >fructose or glucose molecule. In human digestion sucrose is "inverted" >back to fructose and glucose by the action of acid and heat in the >stomach. The intial metabolism of each is by separate pathways but each >ultimately produces pyruvate for further metabolism. In the bee sucrose, >which is a major constituent of nectar, in inverted by an enzyme from >the bee's pharangyal gland. Thus honey is not primarily sucrose but >rather a mix of glucose and fructose with traces of other sugars. This >mix would be called "invert sugar" if purchased man made. Lyle's golden >syrup is an example. Thus ingested honey is metabolized the same as cane >sugar except that the inversion is already done. But the inversion >basically comes for free. Your stomach contains acid and warmth anyway. >Honey tastes better! > >A.J. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:13:01 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: help!!! lost queen and excluders -for newbee- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred, Until you're familiar with finding the queen and workings of a hive, remove the queen excluder. It's a dangerous device to mishandle. You could end up chasing your queen out of the hive or forcing her onto honeybound comb. Want to know if your hive is queenless? Look for 1-3day old eggs on WORKER cells. If you have some 'worker' eggs you're not queenless. You should also find the queen within a frame or two of day old eggs provided your movements in opening/investigating the hive are calm to the bees. My suggestion is to buy and read (!) a good bee book such as Diane Summataro's "The Beekeeper's Handbook". Bee-L isn't always the best source for newbee answers since you might not get an answer to beginner level 'emergency' questions. Most here are good natured enough to lend a helping hand to newbees when they have the time. Just as a side point - make certain your bees aren't keeping your queen honey bound. If the second medium in your brood area is full of honey, your queen can't lay. She likely won't split her brood nest and walk across solid frames of honey either. Your job is to give her enough drawn(!!) comb so she can lay....followed by excluder (if you choose) and honey supers. Starting a new hive, let her lay on 3-5 (or all10) drawn frames, then add 5 more, followed by the second deep. You help your bees by pushing frames of pollen and honey to the side and giving your queen drawn frames to lay JUST to the outside of her existing brood nest. BTW - unless by specific purpose I don't use queen excluders on any of my hives. Properly managed in spring, queens are excluded from honey supers naturally. Queens stay on their brood comb so long as they have sufficient drawn comb to lay. I rarely, if ever, find queens & brood in the wrong place. Many commercial beekeepers use excluders for speed. They can toss honey supers off or requeen and save time by knowing within two deeps where she is. When you're certain where your queen is, use the excluder again. Until then t's not a necessary piece of equipment to beekeep. Your queen doesn't roam all over the hive at all times of the year unless you're reckless and scare her around the hive. Not that she doesn't take a stroll, but 99 times out of 100 you'll find her tending her duties, laying on comb - provided you give her the right amount of drawn comb to work with. Matthew Westall -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA Fred Born wrote: > I'm new at this with 2 hives. > Couldn't find the queeen - haven't been able to find her since I got the > The only thing I can think I might have done, maybe is put the excluder in > the wrong place and queen got up. > Now what do I do!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:53:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave and Judy Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kent and other Bee Friends, I have been an insulin controlled diabetic for 27 years now. Perhaps I can offer some diabetic info. There was a period of time that 'sugar' was thought to be the culprit in diabetes control. Thankfully scientists, being the investigators that they are, have laid that error to rest. (What? Sugar isn't the problem. Lordy, she doesn't know that of which she speaks) Carbohydrates are the issue. Sugar is a carbohydrate. Honey is a carbohydrate. In simple terms, for each carb gram the body requires an 'immediate' gram of insulin. (Of course gram is not the measure, but you get the picture.) Proteins and fat may need one insulin gram to 10 or 20 protein or fat grams. So you can see why the carbs could create the problem because they overload the pancreas and require an immediate release of strong insulin to convert to energy. The proteins and fats 'download' slowly and usually an overworked pancreas can keep up with it. (I am speaking to Type 2 diabetes which is when the pancreas slows down or the insulin is weaker. I am a Type 1 where my pancreas (or islets) don't work at all.) A long explanation to a short answer. A carb is a carb is a carb. Honey is a carb. The comment about whole wheat is an individual thing. Some diabetics can't eat pizza, some can't eat fruit, it is totally an individual thing. When I have a 'low blood sugar' from too much insulin or exercise, I use honey to bring my blood glucose up quickly. The only way to determine if a person can use honey instead of sugar is for them to use their blood glucose meter. Eat something using the sugar and then test your blood, 1/2 hour, 1 hour and 2 hours after eating. Then eat the same thing using honey and test the same way. Compare the readings and determine the answer. The answer is totally dependent upon the person. No easy way out of it. Judy in Kentucky, USA