From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:56 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F89F24ADC3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9j008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9j008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:53 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0108E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 97275 Lines: 2008 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:25:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Solar Wax Melter In-Reply-To: <200108212151.f7LLpnQ14135@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I don't normally forward messages to BEE-L, but here is one where the author apparently had trouble getting the message to go top the right place: --- sent for Harvey --- Hi to all! My name is Harvey The solar melter is a no cost alternative to melting wax which doesn't produce fumes or use of energy to produce a product in approximately Three days and does not need constant monitoring. It is a useful tool and should be attempted as the investment should prove to be very little and out come is justifiable if set up correct. If the first operational melter meets your need at the present amount then no additional solar melter would be needed. However if the time that it takes is too long over the summer honey flow is short for the volume then other such solar melter should be constructed. One source for plans would be www. Beesource.com and look under plans as this is a simple one and it recommends a 15° angle toward the sun. The solar melter should be in such a place that it would receive the afternoon sunlight and continue until dusk to fully take advantage of the heat source. Open areas that receive that time of day for full exposure is recommended as they best serve its purpose. If such an area at ground level in not possible use the roof of any building that receives the full sunlight if available. Consider this first before construction will aide you in any decision in making such a device. The turn table effect would also aide in receiving earlier effects for pre heating such a device when considering the solar melter in climates that are longer on sun during the summer as apposed to latitudes that receive a more uniform exposure through out the year. The closer you are to the equator the more uniform time occurs as to the exposure to the sun. It has been researched to death in the last twenty years as to the placement to solar cells for the purpose of generating electrical power. However the solar wax melter is much older than that solar cell Technology but has to be understood that construction of the interior of the melter should be painted black as well as the outside as well. Internal heat must be retained as a precursor for success in the mission of such a device. Other solar heating equipment like that as a solar water heater has been researched to provide additional means were heating such product would be an undue hardship or misuse of precious fuel. The hot water heaters had come to Arizona at the same time that I did and I have outlasted them. The basic idea was to place the array on the roof and capture the heat inside a heat exchanger inside the building to keep existing hot water heaters from operating until the supply of heat was depleted. This was the American version but Israeli design placed the exchanger was on the roof and faced the general area of the afternoon sun as the heat exchanger was at the top of the panel and provided a better method to heating up water with and without the solar array exposure. Design was simple and to the point as the hot water heater was designed in the Kibitzes all over the occupied lands of the Palestine protectorate of the British between the world wars and came to American people as an economical alternative to more sophisticated designs. Consider this solar hot water heater when you build or have built a separate Honey house for sanitary clean up inside such structure. At the present I know of no design that is available at this time but a good search might show up such a design. The array of exchange is below the heat exchanger that is above the array to provide fast transfer to the canister and pluming into a building would be easily executed via plastic or metal pipe. I even do believe that a common water hose could be used. Adaptive use of old water heaters to the more mechanically inclined would produce that heat exchanger with very little capital outlay. Respectfully submitted Harvey a.k.a. KA7TYN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:29:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Bassett Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey In-Reply-To: <200108282217.f7SMH5Q29965@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kent and Friends, I am a diabetic and a beekeeper. I keep the bees mainly for apitherapy. I cannot eat the honey because it raises my blood sugar as fast or perhaps faster than any other sweet product. Cane sugar is mainly sucrose, I believe. It is more "complex" than the sugars found in honeys, for the most part. The "simple sugars" in honey are more readily absorbed into the bloodstream. Simple sugars will raise blood sugar (or perhaps more appropriatly blood glucose levels) because they are more quickly broken down into glucose, than the more complex table sugar, found in jams and jellys. Diabetes is nothing to mess with. It doesn't cause pain with it's symtoms. It just interferes with with the proper functioning of the body's processes and can cause the loss of a person's legs or blindness or a host of other equally gruesome complications. Newly diagnosed diabetics are many times in denial of their disease. Denial is the point where the damage starts. The body's circulatory system damage is irreversable. It is not worth the consequenses, for a diabetic to mess around trying to find out how he can get around his disease. Your father could be in real danger if he doesn't listen to his doctor. I know, I don't like to hear it either, but diabetics, even with medication, need to cut way down on sugars and other carbohydrates, which can raise the blood sugar. It is a disease which needs some personal study, in order to understand it. I hope this helps. Bob Bassett - Who used to be a much sweeter guy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:23:13 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only reason diabetics use fructose in the first place is that a spoonfull of fructose has more sweetening effect than a spoonfull of cane sugar. In the long run they would be better off healthwise doing without either. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:13:26 -0500 Reply-To: jhwiebe@mb.sympatico.ca Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Wiebe Subject: Bear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would you like to get down to the bear facts? I personally would be delighted to read about working experiences of getting rid of a sneeky, unpredictable, hit anytime, anywhere type bear. My experience started July3, bee yard 1; Aug. 2, bee yard 2 ;. Aug. 25 yard 3. He is very unpredictable, has no time schedule, hits day or night, likes bee larva, honey, bird seed, Yes he broke down a bird feeder, destroyed same and ate the seed. He seems to work a 5 mile radius. I know, shoot it, trap it, etc., this one is a bit more of a challenge then just sticking your gun out the window and poof, there it is, gone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 08:22:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hensler Subject: Re: Bear Comments: To: jhwiebe@mb.sympatico.ca Joihn Wiebe wrote: > Would you like to get down to the bear facts? I personally would be > delighted to read about working experiences of getting rid of a sneeky, > unpredictable, hit anytime, anywhere type bear. Doesn't the Fish & Wildlife Dept., or whatever your state calls it, have a state trapper, or some sort of animal control officer to deal with these type complaints? Here a game warden would come out with a barrel live trap and relocate the problem bear. Skip Skip & Christy Hensler THE ROCK GARDEN Newport, WA http://www.povn.com/rock/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: dronebee@pilot.infi.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Pedro P. Rodriguez" Subject: Mite reproduction rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It should be obvious, and perhaps is to all of us who deal with honey bee mites, that there are several factors that are influential in mite reproduction rates. For years I have observed their behavior and made numerous notations for future reference. Since the inception of my work, I have believed and so posted on this list, that one of those factors is logistics. Time and effort confirm this believe. Foretic mites travel/ live on nursing bees, (primarily), bees which are responsible for nursing the growing bee larvae. Smaller cells require less visits by nursing bees than larger ones. I ignore how many others may have observed this concept but it certainly is there for those who might be interested. Drone bee cells vs. worker bee cells is a perfect example of this concept. I realize that this posting may not shed new information on this subject but it may be useful for those who are not acquainted with mite behavior hence my reason for this posting. Best regards. Dr. Rodriguez ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:46:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Full supers, empty brood boxes In-Reply-To: <200108282105.f7SL5rQ27524@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Try reversing the upper and lower brood chambers to > get the queen laying in > both chambers. > Did the colony swarm during the season? Actually, I did reverse chambers while I was there. Most of the brood was in the upper chamber, but there was some in the lower. This queen is very prolific, and the colony built up quickly, so I was happy they did not swarm. What I am concerned about is having to leave supers on and having the cluster move into them in the winter. This also creates problems with medication. Eugene __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:01:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: Bear John and Bee-L readers, University of Montana bee researchers have made available two good videos about building electric fencing around apiaries to protect colonies from bears. You can view the videos at http://biology.umt.edu/bees/video.htm . It seems that carefully built electric fencing is about the only way to discourage a bear. cheers, Kyle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108241442.f7OEgGQ11677@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Barry asked if anyone is testing open-mated SMR stock for Varroa resistance without also using chemicals. Barry, I am reasonably certain that Kirk Webster is doing just that. < An update on this. I have been contacted by several people who personally know, and talk with on a regular basis, Kirk Webster, and they confirm that he is NOT using SMR stock. He is working with Russian stock. This still leaves me with my original question and with no one saying they will test the stock without using chemicals. Either no one on the list is using SMR stock or there really is no one willing to go "full monty" in their testing. It seems a missed opportunity. So now instead of just paying for chemicals to treat the bees, we add to that the cost of special queens and labor. I fail to understand this idea. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:33:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: bloodsugar vs honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks everyone for you incredible wealth of information! I just got off the phone with my dad and read to him some of the responses. Haha.. He just couldn't believe that you could get all this information from this discussion group. Since the doctor feels that his glucose level is high due to his over indulgence. He is allowed 1 teaspoon of either honey or jam per day. My father has a real sweet tooth..but just for those, not candy. So he has dropped the jam. He is already on a special diet so this is why the doctor is zeroing in on the jam/honey. Anyway I've noticed that this year here in Eastern Ontario that my first honey is just a little bit darker and definitely sweeter and less acidic then other years. To borrow a wine tasting expression "the honey finishes very smooth." The golden rod is just starting here so it's not included in this run. Anyone else notice any distinct changes in their crop this year? A question for Aaron or maybe Allen I'm not sure..how many people are subscribed to this news group? Would you have that information? Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:00:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carolyn Ehle Subject: Re: SMR bee question MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am planning to buy a few SMR queens soon if we can ever get any rain (Plum Branch SC). I have used some formic acid, and would use Api-Life (thymol) if it becomes available. I have enough formic frozen to treat my 30-odd hives twice. When depends on weather and conditions and mite loads. I have used no other chemical treatments in 4 years of beekeeping, but use IPM measures such as mesh bottom, drone trapping, powdered sugar dusting, manipulating broodless periods, and mineral oil/beeswax painted inside the hive body walls. I am still trying to determine the full list of SMR queen suppliers. I prefer sources from non-beetle areas since I have serious concerns about Coumaphos effects on queen performance. Any suggestions from the list? I have selected from the best of my hives for 3 years, 2 years with no chemicals whatsoever. Stocks include several well known Italian sources including hygenics, two sources of Russians, some Buckfasts, and wild-caught hives from nuisance removals (some with multiple-year history.) Some queens bought, some raised here. Wish I didn't work a real job 6 days a week or I could do better, but I think I can give an SMR queen and her progeny a fair shake. There will be no Apistan or Coumaphos used here. So far I've had pretty good luck -- last winter only lost 1 of 30 hives, and that to March starvation. Jury still out on this year, tho I've had 2 hives abscond, and 5 outyard hives have been neglected for 3 months without my main weapon, fresh FGMO/beeswax paint every 6 weeks or so. Hope to check them soon. Personal e-mails welcome. I will probably start buying a breeder queen or two next year. Really need ideas on sources. Thanks. Carolyn Ehle, Wood Widgeon Farm, Plum Branch, west central SC, piedmont region ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:29:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Full supers, empty brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii H, Eugene. Why the reluctance to feed syrup? Don't you value honey more than sugar? Besides, if you put Fumidil and Honey-B-Healthy in your syrup, as I do, the honey the bees make from syrup and eat all winter are medicated. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:16:01 +1200 Reply-To: paul@ww.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul D Brown Subject: Re: No floor on hives In-Reply-To: <200108220352.f7M3qvQ24774@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom and other Bee-L readers, Tom wrote, "If I understand correctly Paul has no floor or no open mesh floor. How can the bees defend such an opening especially against wasps in the autumn?" I have cut the solid floors out of 5 of my hives. The floor now consists of a landing, with an opening of 20 x 365 mm (which I can reduce in winter, or if wasps become a problem) and a 45 mm high surround. (no actual floor or mesh screen). This floor, the hive itself, is supported on a 260 mm high fully enclosed plywood base which is open to the ground beneath. This means the bees only have to defend the same sized entrance as a normal hive entrance. In spring, the bees have built drone comb down into the sub-floor space when there is insufficient space in the supers. The enclosed-base has a rear opening door through which a mite counting drawer can be slid for monitoring natural mite fall and for access to the bur drone comb which I cut off using a long handled 'chistle' tool. This removes the varroa mite trapped in the drone comb. The rear opening sub-floor door can also be left open during honey flows to provide through ventilation. Bees will then enter and leave by both openings. This type of hive closely approximates the natural 'hollow tree' feral colony. Condensation (water), mites, bee crap, etc all falls to the soil below and the decomposers recycle it. (A pity I can't adapt the concept for here at home!) Cheers Paul b. Auckland. New Zealand. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:34:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Ferreira, Lisa - City Council Dist #1" Subject: Bee Hive in tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We have a constituent here in Denver who is concerned about a bee hive inside his hollow maple tree. Apparently the bees have been more aggressive this year than in years past, causing conflict between him and his neighbors. Do you have any suggestions for removal? Someone suggested using a specialized vacuum. Lisa Ferreira, Secretary Council District One North Denver Community Office 303-458-4792 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:24:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Becky boehm Subject: small hive beetle Hello all I have a question concerning the honey in storage and packaged from hives that have SHB. I have gotten the info on not letting the supers set for more than 3 days or a hatch could happen, I have read nothing on eggs hatching after extraction. Any comments or observations. thanks Al Boehm North Carolina USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:20:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Barry & All, Barry wrote: >This still leaves me with my original question and with no one saying >they > will test the stock without using chemicals. Either no one on the list is > using SMR stock or there really is no one willing to go "full monty" in > their testing. It seems a missed opportunity. So now instead of just >paying for chemicals to treat the bees, we add to that the cost of >special queens and labor. I fail to understand this idea. If you go back and read my previous SMR posts you will see my SMR plans. As I posted before I believe in SMR enough to use the queens but like I posted will not make any claims until the spring of 2004. Two years from this spring. The list will be the first to get my opnion. I grafted SMR from the red line Sunday and my partner and I grafted from the yellow line on Monday. We have got quite a few SMR queens mated and laying and out to other beekeepers to try. Bringing in the honey crop is slowing things down. I always need queens Barry but I do not need the hassle of melting down comb a couple times and making my own foundation (4.9mm by hand)for a process which you say is only a third of the cure for solving the varroa problem. Has the list got opinion on the research being done in Canada on Follicel? Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:38:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Matthew W." Subject: Re: Bear Comments: To: jhwiebe@mb.sympatico.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here in our neck of the woods, the Colorado DOW says all bets are off when killing a bear prowling on your commercial livestock. This includes baiting and use of infra-red scopes or spot-lighting at night. Also, anyone can kill the bear provided they have permission of the land owner/hive owner and the bear is caught in the act. All kills have to be reported within 48 hours and the carcass given back whole to the DOW. I know because I've recently asked our DOW all the right questions as this is my next course of action following a bear attack in early May that claimed/killed 56 hives - killed mostly by the 2' snowfall after/while the hives were toppled. Stakes are high if you make a mistake so be certain you ask your DOW before you take action. Baiting is a great way to bring in that bear considering information I've gleaned from bow hunters. Solar powered electric mesh fences went up the next week and have kept the bear away up to now but I carry a rifle everytime I visit the affected apiary if I'm able to stay until dusk. We have bears coming out of our ears here this year so I'm constantly testing and monitoring the fences. Hoping the bear respects the fences and doing everything I can to make it so... Matthew Westall -- // Earthling Bees >8(())))- "Take me to your feeder" \\ Castle Rock, CO, USA > I know, shoot it, trap it, etc., this one is a bit more of a > challenge then just sticking your gun out the window and poof, there it > is, gone. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:03:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Bee Hive in tree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > We have a constituent here in Denver who is concerned about a bee hive > inside his hollow maple tree. Apparently the bees have been more aggressive > this year than in years past, causing conflict between him and his > neighbors. > Do you have any suggestions for removal? Someone suggested using a specialized vacuum. Lisa you need to get a local beekeeper involved as the process involves beekeeping skills. I offer a video for sale which shows the process. The choices are a screen funnel and a beehive or Cut the tree down in winter when the temperature is below 40 degree F. and remove the bees. Soapy water will kill the bees and A.I. Root sells a video which shows the process. I have shown the video to several fire departments in talks I have given. If contact (with the soapy water) because of the shape of the tree is not made with the bees all you are going to do is make the bees upset. Your local exterminator will most like tell you "I don't do bees!" The funnel method has always worked for me but takes time. Basically the plan is to make a funnel with a small hole only *one* bee can slip through. Each bee when he finds he can not rejoin the hive joins the weak hive*queenright* outside. Works best when the major flow is not on. When all but a few bees are left in the tree the funnel is removed and the then strong outside hive (queenright) robs out the tree( when honey flow is not on). The tree in the video took about five weeks. Usually trees have got several entrances. The tree in the video had three entrances . Unless all but the funnel are plugged you are spinning you wheels. Others have tried the funnel method (usually for a weekend) without success. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Some beekeepers do not use a queenright hive but I do. After all the hive will be sitting there for a number of weeks so why would you use any other type of hive. The fellows neighbors will probably be upset when they see a hive sitting by the problem bee tree. New programs will be coming on TV next week so maybe the neighbors will forget the bee tree. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:34:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: How many people? In-Reply-To: <200108300328.f7U3SmQ02425@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...how many people are subscribed to this news group? I just happen to have checked yesterday: 758 allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:14:28 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: BEE-L numbers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Kent asked for numbers concerning BEE-L subscribers. There are currently 750 subscribers. This number is down from previous years. It seems after the last CONFIRM BEE-L exercise, subscriptions did not rebound as they have in the past. There are also many other forums for beekeeping discussions that may have diluted the BEE-L population. Sincerely, Aaron Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:12:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Wax moth trap I read about a wax moth trap, quickly, during a flash visit to another beekeeper. The article mentioned the following ingredients: two litre soda pop plastic bottle, sugar, vinegar, and banana peels. But it did not describe how to offer entry to the moths, nor the quantities to be mixed. The trap was claimed to be highly effective. Has anyone tried it? If so please comment on the formula for the mixture, how often it should be replaced and its effectiveness. We are in spring and moth activity is imminent. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:17:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Al & All, > I have a question concerning the honey in storage and packaged from hives > that have SHB. I have gotten the info on not letting the supers set for > more than 3 days or a hatch could happen, I have read nothing on eggs hatching after extraction. I am doing email with David Westervelt in Florida and have asked David to let me post one of his small hive beetle posts on Bee-l. All people interested in smb should join the Florida beekeepers list and ask the shb questions to those people as they are fighting the shb battle in the trenches. As to shb eggs. Heat kills the eggs so eggs in honey wouldn't be viable and also would be filtered out in a large operation. I do not know in a hobby situation. I will ask David when he responds back for you. I believe David will agree with the above answer. A bigger question is will the slim hurt the quality of honey? Gross the slim is and the honey ferments. Even a small amount could be a problem. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:59:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108301132.f7UBWRQ11896@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Bob - > If you go back and read my previous SMR posts you will see my SMR plans. I am aware of what you have posted here about your plans for SMR. I have not seen anywhere an indication that you will keep some of your SMR stock completely off any chemical to see what the true survivor rate is. Exactly how does one measure the "success" of SMR if they are still using chemicals? > The list will be the first to get my opnion. Opinion is fine, as I have an opinion on small cell, but that doesn't mean it's fact until I can duplicate what the Lusby's are doing in with my bees. Keeping bees without the use of drugs and chemicals is just that. For me to verify that claim, I must not use the same. How are others using SMR going to verify the claim of SMR? > I always need queens Barry but I do not need the hassle of melting down comb > a couple times and making my own foundation (4.9mm by hand)for a process > which you say is only a third of the cure for solving the varroa problem. I'm not interested in beating the 4.9 drum or comparing the two. I'm trying to focus on SMR. I would like to know how successful the SMR is (this is your latest varroa fighting method of choice). No hidden agenda. Just don't come back to the list in a couple of years saying SMR is a success and by the way, I'm still using Apistan or Coumaphos. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108301322.f7UDMtQ14503@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I am aware of what you have posted here about your plans for SMR. I have not > seen anywhere an indication that you will keep some of your SMR stock > completely off any chemical to see what the true survivor rate is. Exactly > how does one measure the "success" of SMR if they are still using chemicals? The problem with any such tests is that what is happening in test hives can be affected by what is happening in the surrounding area. Varroa from collapsing hives can overwhelm a hive that is not generating varroa on its own. AFB from a neighbourhood can get into a hive that has no history of AFB. SHB can attack a hive that has not generated AHB... The success of a technique does not have to be absolute to be considered worthwhile. If SMR only reduces the need for treatment by half, it will still be a success. Of course we all would like to have 100% freedom from chemical treatment, but I doubt that will happen in a short term except in isolated cases. We are stuck with IPM. We have to watch pest and disease levels and respond if we see economic levels or suffer the consequences. Breeding and management can reduce the need for chemical intervention, but as bob has said, if he detects that he is going to lose his bees, he is going to intervene. Fair enough. IMO. That does not mean he cannot observe reduced chemical dependence and attribute that to SMR. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Brad Young Subject: Honey Sweetness Hi All, Well, my first year turned out pretty successful, I guess, as I was able extracted 300 lbs of honey from 2 hives and the bees are making good progress in their stores for winter. I also seem to have made a successful summer split using a NWC Queen from Heitkam's. So far so good as the new queen is laying excellent brood patterns. This is a great hobby to this point (LOL). We'll see how the winter goes here in SE Nebraska (Plattsmouth)... Anyway, the real reason I'm posting is to ask about honey sweetness. I have had many people comment that my honey is not as sweet as the store bought stuff. They then go on to say, to my immense relief, that they like mine better as a result and that they have always felt that honey was too sweet, almost sickening sweet, when they get it from the stores. I do not have an answer for these people on why mine is not as sweet, or why the store's is so sweet and was hoping that some of you could help me out. Some of my theories include (please don't laugh): 1) that because I don't filter my honey as thoroughly as the commercial operations do (I strain through nylon as the finest (smallest) filter) that I have more pollen particles to diffuse the sweetness. 2) that commercial honey, especially foriegn mixed honey, may contain a lot of honey made from feeding bees corn syrup. This theory was just given a bit more creedance as I wrote this post. My wife called and told me that a friend of her's at work said that she has allergic reactions to corn products in the way of constricted air passages (why she lives in Nebraska is beyond me). When she eats corn products the make her wheeze and she has the same symptoms when she eats generic honey. I don't know if it's related but she's going to try some of my honey to see if she has the same reaction. I'll let you know the results. Does any of you have a more definitive reason for this sweetness factor? I am not an expert of nectar types here in SE Nebraska yet, but I would say that it is a mixture of clovers, Honey Locust, and wild and 'domestic' flowers. Also some Alfalfa and maybe soy beans too. Thanks, -Brad ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108300315.f7U3FaQ01961@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey wrote: > So now instead of just paying > for chemicals to treat the bees, we add to that the cost of special queens > and labor. I fail to understand this idea. While I agree with your point that combining the two practices proves nothing, I have no trouble understanding why people might do it. Perhaps they are simply doing all they can to remain viable during a time of increasing colony losses. I am a recent comer to beekeeping and have never seen 30% or more of my colonies wiped out over winter. I can barely imagine how discouraging that must be. I also think Allen made a good point when he said: > The success of a technique does not have to be absolute to be > considered worthwhile. If SMR only reduces the need for > treatment by half, it will still be a success. If SMR bees enable people to treat once a year instead of twice (for example) that sounds like significant success to me. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Interesting discussion on this topic. However some issues seem to be a little muddled. First of all whether a given genetic trait is dominate or recessive has no repeat no bearing on its frequency in the population. Those terms only describe the interaction between the two forms of that same gene and how they are expressed when both are present in an individual. Example: In us humans the gene for type "O" blood is recessive but it is the most common blood type here in the USA ( and some other parts of the world as well ). This "O" form of the gene occurs at much higher frequency in our population here in the USA than other forms even though it is recessive. One cannot assume that just because a trait is frequently seen in a population that that trait is a dominate one. The letter in ABJ simply pointed out that any method including removal of drone brood to reduce the varroa mite population in a bee hive will select that population for any trait or traits that help the mite survive the treatment. Now regarding selection specifically for a preference for worker brood over drone brood. There is a great difference between the reproduction rate in drone brood and worker brood. The varroa reproduction in worker brood is low - hardly able to increase in population at all so such selection could actually lead to coexistance. Not sure but seem to remember a report from Europe of a population of varroa that had a preference for worker brood and so did not do much if any actual damage to the colonies since the mite population could not increase to damaging levels. Karen wrote in part: "I think the beekeepers that do this see a positive result -- "I removed mites from the hive, I can see them" -- and confuse this with overall mite population reduction. The two are not necessarily the same. Until there is reproducable research that shows multi-year mite control with this method (no chemicals, but other IPM methods allowed), while maintaining honey production (although not necessarily at the same level as with chemical methods), I believe it to be a waste of time as a means of "control"." The drone brood trapping methods have been researched and have been shown to be effective. They are labor and time intensive but do actually work. The letter in ABJ pointed this out but raised the issue of if this is a type of selection of the varroa population that we want to do. Another concern is the lack of mature drones from these colonies for mating with queens. If you destroy all your selected drones to control varroa, don't expect to be able to make very much progress breeding for those traits in your own bees. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:30:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: SMR queens I have also hived up several of my open mated daughters of pure bred SMR queens, and I've left one strong hive untreated. As it's amoung 24 non-SMR hives which have severe problems with Varroa, and I'm now treating them, the results should be interesting. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:13:49 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Bear Proof Fence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kyle pointed out that we have videos detailing building bear-proof fences at You can view the videos at http://biology.umt.edu/bees/video.htm. These fences were developed and tested over a period of several years through a cooperative effort by the MT Dept of Fish and Wildlife and some of our largest commercial beekeepers (2-5,000) colonies. Many of our beekeepers have large beeyards in bear country. The final design has proven to be very effective. Because we have a dry climate, figuring out a reliable ground system so that the bear would be zapped took some innovative thinking. The directions for these fences are very detailed and the videos show the reactions of bears and crews building the fences, including beekeeper comments. These fences have been tested, both through extended service around beeyards and by baiting an enclosure with road-killed animals. In one case, a train derailment spilled grain near Glacier Park. One of these fences was erected around the grain pile. A smart bear climbed up on a rock outcrop and jumped into the enclosure. Only problem, they found the bear still inside the enclosure - well satiated, but unable or unwilling to climb out. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:23:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108301422.f7UEMj216710@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello Frank - I was in the middle of a reply back to Allen but will now work it in to yours as you included his. >> The success of a technique does not have to be absolute to be >> considered worthwhile. If SMR only reduces the need for >> treatment by half, it will still be a success. > > If SMR bees enable people to treat once a year instead of twice (for > example) that sounds like significant success to me. A lot of what Allen pointed out is true and I'm in full agreement with. The part that bothers me is how are people going to determine what that level of success is if they continue to treat the bees with chemicals? This will effectively give false conclusions. It seems to me one would have to start with nothing and work back up with chemicals to see what the threshold is for data to be accurate. The fact that there are outside influences on any test hive should not detour the test or it's results as these same influences are there for all the hives. After all, these same influences will be there, test hive or not, and this should give even a better mark of those untreated bees if they can handle these other surrounding influences. It seems we are starting at opposite ends of the line trying to test the same thing. I guess I simply question how effective testing can be if you start with the premise that chemicals are used with the new stock. Surely some would want to keep some hives free of treatment somewhere? It was pointed out to me that Bob H. may have stated in one of his earlier posts that he is keeping some test hives free of treatments. If this is so, I apologize for this over site and am glad this is being done. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:50:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: ABJ letter re using drone brood to remove v. mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: >The drone brood trapping methods have been researched and have been shown to be >effective. They are labor and time intensive but do actually work. The letter in ABJ >pointed this out but raised the issue of if this is a type of selection of the varroa >population that we want to do. Another concern is the lack of mature drones from these >colonies for mating with queens. If you destroy all your selected drones to control >varroa, don't expect to be able to make very much progress breeding for those traits in >your own bees. The key to the selection hypothesis is "if you destroy all of the drone cells" and also seems to assume that the mite level is still high after drone removal which would force selection for worker cells. The drone trapping method relies on a frame or more of drone foundation to trap varroa. Any inspection of the other frames in a hive will show many drone cells in each frame, so it is nearly impossible to destroy all the drones. What is happening is a reduction of the mite level when the frame(s) of drone brood is removed. So you have a reduced mite level, but still plenty of drone cells for that reduced mite level, hence, there is little or no selection for worker cells. The hotel always has enough of the right size rooms. The drone trapping method has not shown a shortage of drones for queen mating. In essence, you are running an eight or nine frame hive instead of a ten frame hive, which some beekeepers do as a matter of practice. One other problem with the assumption. A "normal" hive has no drone trapping frames. With "limited" drone cells, you would think that we already would select for worker cells, based on the numbers of varroa found in a hive compared to the number of drone cells. It does not appear that this is happening, but it should, if the assumption that you can select for worker cells by removing drone brood is correct. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:59:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Bear Proof Fence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some States have programs that can help either cover some or all of the costs of bear fences or provide no-interest loans for the purchase, if you can show a bear problem. You might want to check with your State Dept. of Ag.. As an aside. A beekeeper pollinating a blueberry field got tired of bears damaging his equipment here in Maine. He set his hive up in the bed of his truck and powered a fence around the truck from the truck batteries. The next day he found the bear made it past the fence. Unfortunately, it could not get back out, so was inside the fence with his truck and the hives. Took a while to get it out. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Sticky Board count Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Billy wrote in part: "We pulled about 6 sticky boards and were only able to find one mite. We did an ether roll and found zero. We used about 150 to 200 bees from three different hives. He also demonstrated the powdered sugar method and again no mites. While we had the hives open we looked at some of the drone brood. No mites. Just makes you wonder what is going on. Any other people finding the same?" If the colonies were treated with checkmite+ coumaphos strips this is what I would expect. You probably don't need to treat until next year and maybe not until next fall but do watch the varroa populations to know when you need to treat. blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: reno Subject: Re: Wax moth trap MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I put a cup each of sugar and cider vinegar, one banana peel and fill a little less that half way with water. Replace cap and cut a quarter size hole in the neck near the top. I then use a coat hanger to place in a tree near the hives. Place them up about 5-6 feet...works for me. Will Lewis Lake Butler, Florida.. reno@atlantic.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:58:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108301548.f7UFmA220753@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Birkey wrote: > A lot of what Allen pointed out is true and I'm in full agreement > with. The part that bothers me is how are people going to determine > what that level of success is if they continue to treat the bees > with chemicals? If they do this with all of their hives, then they simply can't. I think you and I agree on that. > This will effectively give false conclusions. Only if they draw conclusions from it. Some of us have the interest, the resources, and the risk tolerance to run controlled tests. Some don't. As long as the people who use SMR and chemicals together as a way of being doubly protected are clear about that then I don't see a problem with it. Advances in the field will come from those who take the risks. > The fact that there are outside influences on any test hive should not > detour the test or it's results as these same influences are there for all > the hives. After all, these same influences will be there, test > hive or not, I agree with that too. Allen seemed to be saying that since we cannot control outside influences we cannot do meaningful tests. (Is that what you meant to say Allen?) It seems to me that if in a given yard half the colonies are run one way and half another way, and if statistically significant differences are observed in the welfare of the two groups, then we have learned something. On the other hand if half the hives are treated for mites, and the other half are untreated and using SMR queens, and they both fare well, that may say nothing other than that this beeyard was not hit hard by mites this year. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:07:55 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Morris Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does one go about joining the Florida Bee Keepers list? For that matter are there other Beekeeper lists on a state by state basis?? Tim Morris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:56:48 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108301734.f7UHYd224603@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen seemed to be saying that since we cannot > control outside influences we cannot do meaningful tests. (Is that what you > meant to say Allen?) No that is not what I was saying, but it may be true in specific cases. I don't know. It depends on how the outside influences are distributed for one thing. For another it depends if we can mitigate the effects on the bees and if we can filter out the effects on the data. What I think I was saying is that there are always outside influences and in some cases they may be sufficiently severe that the test cannot be finished without helping the bees survive. Dead bees don't provide any solutions or any promise. Bees that survive with minimal help do. Helping the bees survive does not necessarily nullify the test. An important point that many do not acknowledge is that it *is* possible to treat bees with chemicals -- for whatever reason -- and still meaningfully measure any resistance they may have. When putting on Apistan(r) or whatever, shoving in a sticky board at the same time will show which hives have fewer mites -- or none. Those hives are the ones -- IMO -- that stand the best chance of surviving without treatment in the future. FWIW, I have no doubt that *if* SMR does, in fact, work wonderfully well, there will still be places and situations where it will not. The seasons and amount of drone rearing varies widely from region to region -- as do many other factors. If there is only one thing that BEE-L has taught me it is this: there are very few universal truths when it comes to honey bees. Winnie the Pooh was right. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:06:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: An exchange regarding "Admire" (Bayer) In-Reply-To: <200108230236.f7N2anQ07554@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I was surprised my post on this subject did not raise even one reply. Undaunted, I have tried to get details about "testing" from Bayer and from this State's Extension service. The primary questions were 1) is Admire expressed in nectar; and 2) if it is, what is the duration of toxicity of the Admire is applied via buried drip systems; and 3) once in the soil, if sufficient rain or irrigation water is applied to cause puddling in slow spots in a field, how long will it be before imidacloprid is not longer present in the water? I specifically asked whether tests had been conducted to ascertain answers to these questions. The silence has been deafening. As I understand it, when Imidacloprid is used to control Varroa, we put a sub-lethal dose (to bees) in the hive. If the agent is available outside the hive, it is possible to raise the dose to a level lethal to bees. If, in view of the long discussions we've had on this subject here on BEE-L, anyone else shares the concern, perhaps a small flood of similar inquiries made to Bayer and to State and Federal agencies would help gain a response. If the concern has already been address and I missed it - I'd like to be told the question is stupid. Thanks. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:02:42 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Varroa mite biology Comments: To: irishbeekeeping@yahoogroups.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All I am interested in finding out how long the varroa mites are in the phoretic stage on the bees after the bee emerges until those mites enter cells to breed. How quickly can this happen and/or is there an average time? Thanks for assistance Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:14:10 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Re: An exchange regarding "Admire" (Bayer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, You mention that Imidacloprid is used to control Varroa by sub- lethal doses of the molecule being applied to the bees. Would you be as kind as to expand on the subject. Dick Rogers - Entomologist\ IPM specialist is under taking research into possible effect of Imidacloprid on Honey bees in Prince Edward Island, Canada at the moment. www.wildwoodlabs.com This is a very delicate subject for many reasons - mainly legal. This is maybe a reason why you have had little response to your question. Also, there is possibly the fear by responsible individuals - departments not wishing to get mixed up in such a problematic topic. Others have just given up - worn down by the tactics used to limit information. People used to to be dusted with DDT because it worked! - and it has taken years to get certain facts admitted by the relevant authorities concerned companies that this was not the complete story. Lack of evidence at the appropriate time didn't help matters - but neither did the refusal to accept further research conclusions. Material that is used in the public domain should to my way of thinking have all facts relating to it also in the public domain. Research that is undertaken by Government departments should not be able to retreat away from inquiry using the excuse that the research was paid for by a third party. and... and........... Regards Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:39:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: An exchange regarding "Admire" (Bayer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Richard and All, > As I understand it, when Imidacloprid is used to control Varroa, we put a sub-lethal dose (to bees) in the hive. If the agent is available outside the hive, it is possible to raise the dose to a level lethal to bees. Imidacloprid has NEVER been used to control varroa. Did you write the wrong word Richard? Bayer will talk unless they are under attack about a product. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:17:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hello Tim, > > How does one go about joining the Florida Bee Keepers list? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FloridaBeekeepers > Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 17:30:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Re: Full supers, empty brood boxes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Eugene. You understand, don't you, that you want the bees to begin winter in the bottom box with the overwintering honey above them and that they will wind up in the top box in the spring? Organize your hive with this expectation in mind. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: small hive beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, David Westervelt has given permission for me to post a post David did on the Florida Beekeepers site. David said they are working on a new way to control the SHB and information should be released before long. David wrote: The SHb is able to pupate in almost any thing it can find. We have had them pupate in nothing but a piece of filter paper in a petri dish that was stored at room temperature. They do like some soils better than others but they will crawl a good ways to find what they want. We have seen where they went 150 feet to get to the outside of a honey house just to crawl 50 feet more to find something to go under to pupate in. We have seen them pupate in the dry debris in the hives after they could not go out in the ground. We've found them in and under cardboard in a honey house that was used to keep the floors clean. THEY WANT TO SURVIVE & REPRODUCE.... Thank You, David Westervelt The above kind of shoots holes in the theory that the SHB will not be able to pupate away from sandy soils! The good news is David feels his new method of control might be what we are looking for. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 20:35:47 +1200 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: Honey Sweetness In-Reply-To: <200108301408.f7UE8d216007@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Does any of you have a more definitive reason for this sweetness factor? I am > not an expert of nectar types here in SE Nebraska yet, but I would say that it > is a mixture of clovers, Honey Locust, and wild and 'domestic' flowers. Also > some Alfalfa and maybe soy beans too. Honey is predominantly Fructose followed by Glucose plus often a host of minor sugars, usually maltose and then more complex sugar molecules. The sugar spectrum of each honey is almost completely due to honey flow intensity, nectar concentration and most important of all, nectar source. It has almost nothing to do with differences in processing such as filtering, heating (unless excessive) cooling, crystallizing etc. Cane sugar (sucrose) is a sweetness most of us are familiar with. It also has its own *taste*. Fructose is 1.8 times sweeter than Sucrose. Glucose is 0.7 times as sweet as Sucrose. Maltose is much less sweet than sucrose Glucose, Fructose and Maltose all have their own taste. Honeys that are higher [than normal] in fructose and lower in the less sweet minor sugars will have more sweetening power than honeys with higher [than normal] glucose or high values of minor sugars e.g. some honeydews. Crystallized honey may taste sweeter because most the glucose (the less sweet part) is locked up as crystals (until they dissolve in the mouth) unavailable to the pallate while the fructose is readily available. It is also necessary to overlay the taste of the honey. Some honeys with a perfumed floral nectar may load the senses giving an impression of excess sweetness, whereas more earthy, herby flavours may have the reverse effect. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:00:04 +1200 Reply-To: paul@ww.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Paul D Brown Subject: Re: Varroa mite biology In-Reply-To: <200108310019.f7V0J0210495@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Subject: Varroa mite biology I am interested in finding out how long the varroa mites are in the phoretic stage on the bees after the bee emerges until those mites enter cells to breed. How quickly can this happen and/or is there an average time? Tom" Hi Tom and All, When varroa first arrived in Auckland NZ, maybe 2 or 3 years ago, I had very high mite levels in many hives. The NZ Govt. provided Apistan strips for the first (and second) treatments, I had mine put in on the 21 Aug 2000. I then counted the 'mite fall' and graphed it. I don't have the 'Math.s power' to interpret the data but I think it may help answer your question. Mind you, as the conditions change, so the interpretation probably should change as well. BUT hard data is hard data and should have some explanation, even if the interpretation is debatable. Data, 1. In the first 2 or 3 days, 4000 to 6000 mites fell (say +or-2000) then 2. The graph plateaued at 1500 mites/day (+/-100 say) until day 12 then 3. the graph dropped and plateaued again at 50 mites/day (+/-5) until day 26, then 4. plateaued again at 7 mite/day (+/-2), but 5. the graph did not decrease to 1 or 2, it stayed at about 6 until the apistan strips were removed on day 44. I thought that the reason for the first plateau was that 1500 mites were hatching from the cells that had been capped prior to the apistan application. The second plateau at 50 mites/day was that say 40 pregnant mites of the 1500 mites, managed to get into a cell and be capped, thus avoiding being 'apistaned'. That is 40 of the 1500, say 1 in 38 (or 40), avoid poisoning. The third plateau at 7 mites/day was say 5 pregnant mites of the 50, that is 5 of the 50 or 1 in 10 avoid poisoning. 1 in 40 when their are a lot of mites, and 1 in 10 when their are much less. Does this make sense? The reason the mite fall never reached 0, 1 or 2, could be the apistan becoming expended, or as the supplier says, these are 'incoming mites'. What do you reckon? One could also argue, that there are say 5000 mites either 'walking' 'W' or 'attached to a bee' 'A' in the bee colony. These come from the 1500 mites that hatch from the capped cells, 'C mites', each day. Does this mean that 5000/1500 = say 3 is about the average time a mite spends outside a cell, as a 'W' or 'A' mite? 3 days? OK? Cheers Paul b. Auckland, NZ. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:54:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > What I think I was saying is that there are always outside influences and in > some cases they may be sufficiently severe that the test cannot be finished > without helping the bees survive. Dead bees don't provide any solutions or any > promise. Bees that survive with minimal help do. Helping the bees survive does > not necessarily nullify the test. The truth is, both Bob's trial of SMR bees and Barry's trial of 4.9 foundation are not true trials of either, mainly because of the non control of variables in the trial, one of my continued concerns with some varroa controls touted on this list. Their results will be interesting, but not conclusive. They will be shown to work or not work under the conditions they have in their apiaries, but not necessarily anywhere else. A true trial of either SMR or 4.9 would require controls; a reduction of all variables to a manageable number; an introduced mite load or, at a minimum, a uniform, existing mite load; a method of testing for efficacy; and reproducibility by others. I am sure I am missing even more that should be included. So far, what I have seen concerning SMR leads me to judge its results as more scientifically based than 4.9, but that is not for lack of trying to get the scientific community to trial 4.9. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 06:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: john@outdoorplace.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: "All Natural" Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of you might find this survey finding interesting. It is quoted from a larger study on organic foods and American consumer behavior: =========================== Seventy-Five Percent Think ``All-Natural'' and ``Organic'' Are Synonymous The study, conducted by Roper Starch Worldwide, Inc., reveals that while nearly two in three Americans (63%) feel organic foods and beverages are both better and more healthful for them than the non-organic counterparts, three out of four consumers (75%) are unable to differentiate between organic foods and those which are labeled ``all-natural.'' Additionally, one in five (21%) erroneously thinks ``organic'' is synonymous with ``low-calorie.'' =========================== A summary of this research, published July 9, may be read at: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010709/nym113.html John Caldeira Dallas, Texas, USA http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:56:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I guess I'm being arguementative here, as if fact I agree with what Allen says when he writes, "When putting on Apistan(r) or whatever, shoving in a sticky board at the same time will show which hives have fewer mites -- or none. Those hives are the ones -- IMO -- that stand the best chance of surviving without treatment in the future." This is probably so, but possibly not. It is likely that the sticky boards with the fewest mites identify the hives that have a diathesis for mite resistence. But there is also a possibility that a hive so identified has fewer mites as a fluke. One cannot assume they have a golden hive based on relatively clean sticky boards. Perhaps the mites were vacationing in New Jersey when the treatments went in. The fewer mites hives are good candidates for selective breeding for those beekeepers who are involved enough to be doing their own selective breeding, but for sustained positive results the progeny of those selected breeders must be evaluated for their mite resistence (or not), and EVERY SUBSEQUENT QUEEN and her colony must be evaluated for THEIR mite resistence (or not). It's not like once you hit on a resistent hive the problem is solved. Continuing efforts will ALWAYS be necessary to ensure that what was there in one generation remains there in subsequent generations. Such is the wonder of open mated queens, such is the caution beekeepers need to be aware of when they are purchasing tauted "SMR" queens. There will be very few queen advertisements by New Year's 2002 that do not contain "SMR" in the ad. Aaron Morris - thinking Caveat emptor! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:30:32 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Beekeepers death in Franklin CT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest newspaper article from the newspaper The New London Day is online today at www.theday.com scroll down the opening page to the region section and the article is there. So far it's still a big mystery as to what really happened, mostly it sems a very aggressively defensive colony. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 07:52:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108311311.f7VDBI227287@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The truth is, both Bob's trial of SMR bees and Barry's trial of 4.9 > foundation are not true trials of either, mainly because of the non > control of variables in the trial... Their results will be > interesting, but not conclusive.... True, however people assume though that the results of properly prepared and run scientific tests are conclusive. Not so. One thing many forget though is that the results of well controlled, well planned trials are typically analysed and proven with statistics. Oftentimes the results of such tests are stated as having 95% probability of being true. That leaves a meaningful chance that reality of the situation slipped the net and the truth is still -- out there. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:27:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Beekeepers death in Franklin CT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: > > The latest newspaper article from the newspaper The New London Day is online > today at www.theday.com scroll down the opening page to the region > section and the article is there. > So far it's still a big mystery as to what really happened, mostly it sems a > very aggressively defensive colony. Here is some later info. http://www.ctnow.com/scripts/editorial.dll?fromspage=all/home.htm&categoryid=&bfromind=585&eeid=5181954&eetype=article&render=y&ck=&ver=3.0 If you cannot cut and paste that link, which is the article, try http://www.ctnow.com/scripts/staticpage.dll?spage=cg/cityguide.htm&only=y&ck=&ver=3.0 and go to the article. Still have many questions. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > Oftentimes the results of such tests are stated as having 95% probability of > being true. That leaves a meaningful chance that reality of the situation > slipped the net and the truth is still -- out there. Which is why they have to be reproducable by others. No problem with what you say. My point is that they will be more accurate than either of the two trials mentioned where the variables are not controlled, especially the mite load. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:57:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Birkey Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108311311.f7VDBG227280@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Their results will be > interesting, but not conclusive. They will be shown to work or not work > under the conditions they have in their apiaries, but not necessarily > anywhere else. An argument can also be made that the same is true of "real" testing with all the controls. A reduction of all variables to a manageable number is convenient for the researcher, but seldom does nature operate this way. What is more meaningful to me is to have various people in various regions with various local conditions say they are able to duplicate something, than a study saying this *should* be the result given our test data from our ten test nucs, so forth and so on. A scientific paper does have its place. As does the beekeeper testing things out in his hives. > A true trial of either SMR or 4.9 would require controls; a reduction of > all variables to a manageable number; an introduced mite load or, at a > minimum, a uniform, existing mite load; a method of testing for > efficacy; and reproducibility by others. I am sure I am missing even > more that should be included. I disagree. This is what the scientific community would see as the only valid approach. A lot of beekeepers would say ho hum and do what their other beekeeper friend is doing, tested or not. This points out again the canyon that often divides the two, each looking down on the other as being unreal and out of touch. We need more researchers and scientists willing to work hand in hand with the local beekeeper, who by nature of his work, will have far more hands on knowledge than the researcher or scientist will working in their labs. There needs to be a balance. Regards, Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Full supers, empty brood boxes In-Reply-To: <200108310154.f7V1sE212931@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- dan hendricks wrote: > Hi, Eugene. You understand, don't you, that you > want the bees to > begin winter in the bottom box with the > overwintering honey above > them and that they will wind up in the top box in > the spring? Yes, I understand that; I just don't like the idea of that top box being one of my supers. But I guess it's either that or I feed them a few gallons of sugar syrup in the fall. Eugene __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 10:06:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: testing SMR stock In-Reply-To: <200108311524.f7VFO6203145@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > A true trial of either SMR or 4.9 would require controls; a reduction of > > all variables to a manageable number; an introduced mite load... > I disagree. This is what the scientific community would see as the only > valid approach. A lot of beekeepers would say ho hum and do what their other > beekeeper friend is doing, tested or not... I don't think a true trial is necessary to prove the obvious. More subtle effects, or understanding the underlying principles more clearly may require scientific approaches and controlled trials in order to refine understand of what is happening and how such effects can be best used in other situations. Obviously what Lusbys have done has worked for them, and others are now trying their ideas to see if they will work for them too. What scientific investigation CAN do here is try to determine what is causing their success, and if it is what Lusbys theorize, or just luck -- or something else. There is no arguing with their success, but many questions remain unanswered, or at least unproven to the sceptical among us. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > I don't think a true trial is necessary to prove the obvious. More subtle > effects, or understanding the underlying principles more clearly may require > scientific approaches and controlled trials in order to refine understand of > what is happening and how such effects can be best used in other situations. snip > There is no arguing with their success, but many questions remain unanswered, or > at least unproven to the sceptical among us. Generally a scientist would try to first replicate what was done. It may seem obvious, but there are enough experiments that cannot be duplicated in other labs but were touted as successes by the proponents. Cold fusion is probably one of the best known. There have been more than a few on this list. If it cannot be replicated, then trying to find out what might be happening is not worth the time or expense. There is a lot of junk science out there, so I understand the reaction that bringing up science can generate. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:18:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Wax moth trap Perhaps I should add that I need these traps to protect comb. Wax moths do not bother our bees (scutellata) in their hives. But I breed queens, and at any given time I have any number of deep frames in rotation, while frames with grafted larvae are with the cell builders. The unprotected frames (stored in normal lidded furniture) contain pollen and honey. There are other things around, such as small hive beetles and a kind of honey cockroach, but those are stories for another day. Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:33:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick and Kathy Subject: Re: Beekeepers death in Franklin CT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just got the following from a beekeeping friend in CT (one who's been involved @ the state level for several years): "Info on Jennings: he was 54, had a stroke a few weeks ago, diabetes, and supposedly some heart trouble, walked with cane(s). Our state bee inspector had been helping him with his hives and told him to call for the next time - Jennings did not call him this time. He was in beekeeping about 5 yr. supposedly. That is about all we know so far." My friend also indicated that the belief of those who know the players is that the bee inspector is not at fault, some of the quotes are innacurate (gee - imagine that!), and some of those quoted know not of what they speak. Still can shed no light on what happened to Mr. Jennings in the beeyard that day though... likely no one will be able to do more than speculate... Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:40:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: AP - Beekeeper Killed. Comments: To: Marc Sevigny In-Reply-To: <200108271523.f7RFN6Q23731@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200108271523.f7RFN6Q23731@listserv.albany.edu>, Marc Sevigny writes >Jennings was a registered beekeeper with three hives, said Ira Kettle, state >bee inspector. > >''I can't understand it, what went wrong,'' he said. I wonder if many cases like this are due to scents in after shave or hair spray or eau de Cologne or whatever. I wore a Body Shop eau de C and was repeatedly attacked among a group of beekeepers who were left alone. It only happens when I used that product which I now reserve for occasions when I have 2 clear days to wash it off. On another occasion, a friend working with me opening otherwise docile colonies was attacked, retired in her car and 100 yards away was mercilessly attacked by nearby bees (no followers). On reflection, she had just been to have a perm and usually washed her hair afterwards. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 03:13:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: testing SMR stock MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bill and All, Bill wrote: > My point is that they will be more accurate than either of the two > trials mentioned where the variables are not controlled, especially the > mite load. Dr Harbo counted out exactly 200 mites (I believe) and put those in his test package hives. I could do the same but I doubt any researcher would say a strong production hive in spring would have *less* than 200 varroa in the hive even when a 98% control was used successfully in the late summer. Bill I am more interested in proving SMR to myself than the rest of the beekeeping world. I consider my tests very accurate. Selecting for SMR is not as easy as selecting the hive with the lowest mite count. SMR means varroa does not reproduce in these hives. A phenomenon we have observed from the start and Harbo & Harris explored. Six years of work have gone into the SMR project before we get the queens. Hundreds of these instrumentally inseminated SMR breeder queens are being tested in the same way I am testing. It will take two years untreated to say the SMR project a total success but as Allen says any varroa tolerance is a step in the right direction. Bob