From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:57 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A56C24ADC3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO43010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO43010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0110B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 152060 Lines: 3316 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:42:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 5 Oct 2001 to 6 Oct 2001 (#2001-271) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Peter and Everyone, plb6@CORNELL.EDU wrote: "Have you compared them side by side with hives on regular bottom boards to determine the difference in the same apiary the same year? Has anyone on this list?" I have not compared in the same apiary but Jeff Pettis did a study that was published a few years back in American Bee Journal. He found increased broodrearing in colonies started from packages if they were on mesh bottoms and decreased varroa mite loads. That article is what got me to switch. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:37:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Screen bottoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Allen and Everyone, Allen asked: "Do the bees tend to store more honey in the supers and tend to draw away from these cooler bottom boards?" In my experience - note only a few colonies all in one location - the bees seem to "like" the screen bottoms and in fact will rear brood to the bottombar just above the screen and in fact will also raise queen cells on that bottombar. Anyone who switches to fully open 8 mesh bottoms should check the bottom of the bottom box during swarm season for cells or they may be unaware that a colony is bent on swarming. Again Allen just my observations at one location here in MN. I do leave the mesh bottoms on and open during the winter and the do fine. My colonies are on stands made of old redwood 4 X 4's and so are about 8 inches above the ground with plenty of room for air circulation under the hives. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Minnesota Hygienics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi tvaughan@charter.net asked about open mated daughters from the MN hygenic stock . The daughters will likely be less hygenic than the breeder but if you select the best including testing for hygenic behavior they will do fine. They are resistant to both American Foulbrood and chalkbrood, good honey producers here in the upper midwest, winter well, and are reasonably gentle and easy to work with. The real secret is to continue to select any future generations of queens for all these charactistics not just hygenic behavior. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 20:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 5 Oct 2001 to 6 Oct 2001 (#2001-271) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst asked: > Have you compared them side by side with hives on regular > bottom boards to determine the difference in the same apiary > the same year? You should ask this question of someone at Beltsville Bee Lab, where the screened bottom board (called "The Beltsville Screen" at first) was developed. Their opinion would carry more weight than mine, and they likely can back up their view with excellent data. In my own experience, the first year I used screened bottom boards, I had 5 hives with screened bottom boards, and two without, all within a few yards of each other at the same site. (The two "without" were being used for pollen collection, and one can either have a pollen trap or a varroa screen, but not both. ) While I can't represent my limited data as "publication quality" at all, there was little or no difference in any of the key factors (brood, honey, etc) that I noticed. Yes, I do keep written records, so this is not merely an impression. But I think you are missing the point. The general consensus is that screened bottom boards work. If there is an impact on the "overall productivity" of the bees, it is so minor, it has escaped the notice of many attentive beekeepers. Even if there was some minor disadvantage, the advantages (better hive survival) outweigh any possible disadvantages. An overwintered hive will always out-perform a split or package, by a wide margin, and one must replace a dead-out with a split or a package. I consider screened bottom boards to be cheap insurance. They are cheap to make, they work well, and the way they work is both well-understood and easy to verify yourself. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:38:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 5 Oct 2001 to 6 Oct 2001 (#2001-271) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst, 8 mesh screen bottom boards compared with solid wood bottom boards. In April of 2000, I put 10 colonies on 8 mesh screen bottoms and kept 10 other colonies in the same apiary on solid wood bottom board. All 20 colonies were in 3 medium bodies (I have not used any deeps in 20 years), all had an upper entrance in the inner cover edge, no colony had a front entrance reducer ( haven't used those in over 60 years based on instructions from Dr. James I. Hambleton), all colonies had stores of 70+ pounds of honey for stores during winter of 2000-2001. There was very little difference between the 20 colonies in the spring of 2001. When I started reversing brood boxes in February, I only moved the top body down into the position of the # 2 body rather than the # 1 body, However, about mid March, I begin switching the #3 body of capped brood down to the #1 body position. Both groups of 10 colonies were about the same strength in the spring, and the April 1st sticky board mite count was almost identical, no colony had more than 10 mites on the sticky board for a 24 hour period with one strip of Apistan placed in each colony bottom box. Although I am a scientist, and this test was very poor testing by scientific standards, it was good enough for me to convert all my colonies to an 8 mesh screened bottom board for the future. I have ALWAYS believed in GOOD HIVE VENTILATION rather than a semi-closed colony for good winter survival, so I was not surprised with the results at all. All colonies have all supers removed before July 4th, all colonies are treated with MENTHOL for tracheal mites on August 15th (never in September), all colonies are requeened on September 1st, all colonies have 4 strips of Apistan installed on October 1st and removed close to Thanksgiving, and a rarely lose a colony in the winter My location is Rockville, Maryland, which is 15 miles north of President Bush's WHITE HOUSE. You are at Cornell. You can ask Dr. Nick Calderone about me, because he knows my "credentials" (I hate that word) George Imirie 69 years of beekeeping in Maryland EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:30:11 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened Bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have tried a few of these this year and so far am pleased with the results. The brood extends right to the bottom bars. The thought struck me the other day when I was looking at a colony without using smoke and I could see between the frames and through the mesh to the ground beneath that the bees weren't flying up at me as I expected. I wondered whether the fact that they were continuously exposed to light from below during daylight hours meant they didn't bother to investigate when also exposed to light from above when I removed their ceiling. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 12:04:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Concerning screen bottom boards, Jim said "I consider screened bottom boa= rds to be cheap insurance. They are cheap to make, they work well, and the way they work is both well-understood and easy to verify yourself." =20 I agree with Jim, but go further in my views. I cannot think of a good r= eason for a beekeeper to continue to use a solid bottom board. Compared = to screens, they are heavy and relatively expensive and, as far as I know= , do not have any advantages. However, in order to get present beekeepers to change and to get new beek= eepers to start with screens, the publications and books will have to rec= ommend that solid boards not be used and dealers will have to do likewise= . Dealers might also include screens in their beginner kits. As few dea= lers these days are beekeepers, I predict this will take a long time. =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 14:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ed Subject: Screened Bottomboards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To all, Would someone please put the directions ( for Screened Bottomboards) = on-line for a person to build his or her own Bottomboards? Thanks, Ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:47:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blane White wrote: > I do leave the mesh bottoms on and open during the winter and the do fine. My colonies are on stands made of old redwood 4 X 4's and so are about 8 inches above the ground with plenty of room for air circulation under the hives. Just to second Blane's results. My bees showed no difference at all in productivity this summer after overwintering on screened bottoms in Maine. They are about a foot above the ground on concrete blocks. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:45:00 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: open mesh floors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/10/01 05:04:32 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Have you compared them side by side with hives on regular bottom boards to determine the difference in the same apiary the same year? Has anyone on this list? >> I haven't done anything scientific in the way of measurement. I have about a third of my hives on mesh floors open to the ground beneath the stand (apart from when I occasionally slide a tray in for a 24 hour test). They certainly don't appear to hold the colonies back. My heaviest honey crop this (indifferent) year was from a hive on a mesh floor. I was also using small celled foundation in that hive so there is more than one variable. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:12:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Screened Bottomboards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Directions: Order one already assembled then copy it. I am not trying to be sarcastic, really. It is the easiest way to get the dimensions correct. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:51:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Forrest Zielke Subject: Re: Screened Bottomboards Go to the site below for plans to screened bottom boards. http://www.beesource.com/plans/index.htm Forrest Zielke Ashland, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 18:24:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bernard Bee Bec Subject: Billett Easyloader MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! everybody We plan to purchase a boom. Is anyone familiar with the use of the Billett easyloader from Australia ? Thank you. Bernardo Bee ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 17:23:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apparently many BEE-L members do leave the mesh floors on over winter and also leave them open to the elements. I wonder how many also use top entrances as well, or if many find the ventilation from below adequate. I also wonder how many use the large surface area type described on Barry's site and how many use a smaller mesh area as described here by a Norwegian member several years back. As I recall, he used no upper entrance and had good wintering success. > > I do leave the mesh bottoms on and open during the winter and the do fine. My colonies ... are about 8 inches above the ground with plenty of room for air circulation under the hives. allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 19:43:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kent Stienburg Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Apparently many BEE-L members do leave the mesh floors on over winter and > also leave them open to the elements. I wonder how many also use top > entrances as well, or if many find the ventilation from below adequate. I provide the top entrance for the winter. They sure use it in the early spring. Kent Stienburg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 11:15:47 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines (Periodic Post) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Anyone and everyone with interest in bees is welcome to join. We do, however, have rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. In particular, articles that include anything more than *very* minimal quotes of previous articles will be rejected *without notice*. Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than most on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. We would like to point out to new members (and remind long-time members) that all our rules, including the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. The page also provides links to enable you to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel immediately your BEE-L membership. IMPORTANT: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 04:03:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Pesticide spraying for West Nile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William - have you thought of pointing out to your Agriculture Department the damage that will have been caused to the farming industry there if all the bees have been killed? Better still, get some of the farmers to do so! You are 'just a moaning bee-keeper', but farmers are food producers and *taxpayers*! J. J. ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ > On October 2 around 6:30PM my area of the Union County, Florida was sprayed > with pesticide to kill mosquitoses possibly carrying the West Nile Virus. > The mosquitoses are still alive, but thousands of my bees and other > beneficial insects were killed. I had no direct notice of this spraying. > The agriculture department in this > state is in charge, and it is my information, that the person in charge, > when told of the problem here, did not know that this area was to be > sprayed. So the bee keeper takes it again. William Lewis.. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:20:08 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been keeping bees for 30 years and give 100's of presentations each year. One question about honeybees in particular plagues me. Your research, informed opinion, speculation, and/or wild guesses would be of help. How do the virgin queens and drones from a neighborhood know where the mating zone(s) are since they come from different locations? Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:10:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen, As written many times before, my hives have a top entrance built in the inner cover edge for all 365 days of the year, and I never use the entrance reducer stick (except for firewood); and now all have screened bottom boards that are never closed during the winter. As I continually point out: CHANGING TIMES, as we learn more. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:52:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Re: Screened Bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110090401.f9941aY14035@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I made no statement about screened bottoms or any other technique and it is not my intention to. I merely sought feedback from beekeepers on your experiences with them. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: reno Subject: Screen Bottom boards (calming effect?) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, to answer you question about making them calm, because of the light coming constantly from the bottom screened boards during day light hours, the answer is NO. It has been my experience that they are calm on warm days when a flow is on. Otherwise, mine tend to be a little testy with out a little smoke. Will Lewis... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:27:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > > Apparently many BEE-L members do leave the mesh floors on over winter and > also leave them open to the elements. I wonder how many also use top > entrances as well, or if many find the ventilation from below adequate. Open bottom, top ventilation and no wrapping. Top ventilation/entrance is through the notched inner cover. But hives are battleship grey/dark paint and have good windbreaks. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:23:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: wax moth control I notice that paradichlorobenzene isn't EPA regestered for use in California. Can I please have a recommendation for something to use for wax moth control? Thanks Tim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:40:19 -0700 Reply-To: info@iogmaria.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: Tropical Beekeeping advice In-Reply-To: <200109061300.f86D0xJ25299@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received an email from SEAsia asking for some advice on splits, which I will provide, but... 1. Starting new colonies from packages, specifically how many brood boxes and feeding. Packages from Australia are usually ok. But you will have to get more than the standard 2 pounders. 2 kg, packages are best. These usually fit into a single hive, if five frames of foundation are used to hive the packages. Timing will be tricky though, since Australian packages are usually available in late October or early November. They get fully booked in September. I recommend 5 frames for 2 kgs because the cluster will shrink after a month due to die-off of the original bees. Just dip each package in a basin of water; put into a hive; gently pull out the feeder can; get the queen cage; pry off the aluminum metal strip which secures the entrance hole; hang in the middle of frames. Feeding can be done by plastic bags. It wil be best to do this at night. If you are quiet and move smoothly, you can hive about 200 packages between midnight and sunrise. We never used smoke when hiving packages. Reduce all entrances with masking tape and feed continiously. This will minimize drifting and robbing. If you have varroa free colonies ahead of time, it will be safer to insert 1 frame of open brood with some bees in each hive. This will quiet the bees fast and will give a needed hatching boost towards the third week after hiving. Our local honeyflows start in late October and November, depending on the strength on the nectarflows, colonies from packages build up and have surplus honey by March. If the nectarflows start earlier or are stronger, queens become honeybound and buildup can be slow and there is no surplus during the first season. 2. Swarm management. Swarming season starts here in September and ends when the nectarflows of November are in full swing. We steal the frames with swarm cells to make up mini mating nucs. 3. when to add honey supers. Nectar sort of trickles in in the tropics, so we add a couple of frames per week as needed. 4. If a single brood box, do you use queen excluders or how to you keep the queen out of the supers. We use excluders because nectarflows here are touch and go. 5. any other advice for tropical beekeeping, like a good book that deals specifically with that climate. All beekeeping here is area specific due to diverse flora and micro climates. Regarding swarming, see detailed instructions above. These are designed to quiet the bees and make them feel at home. More likely, the individual's bees are absconding. Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS Cavite Highlands, Philippines Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:18:12 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to pipe in on some accessments that I have made since using bottom boards under my screens. I currently have 32 hives with most of them screen only. I have some with screens and bottom boards, and some with just bottom boards no screens but mostly screen only. I would like to speak to those interested in using screens that might run across and my information might help them when deciding to put screens on so they don't go through some issues that I went through. NOTE: These are only my situtations and solutions they are not scientifically tested or evaluated! 1. When placing a screen on top of a bottom board that has been reversed "no opening now in front" remember that if you had your hive tilted forward for water\moisture to escape that once you place your bottom board backwards and screen on top the water will collect in the bottom board. My solution: Tilt backwards or leave a small gap for the moisture to run out. 2. When installing a package of bees and you have the bottom board underneath of the screen and the back end open between the bottom board and screen you may find bees trying to go in between the bottom board and screen. Even if you aren't installing bees you might find robbers or others "yellow jactets" trying to get in this entrance... My solution: Close back entrance off. 3. If using bottom board in conjuction with screen large build up of wax and other residue will build up. The bottom board becomes a great place for wax moths and other insect seeking food. My solution: Clean regularly with a home made tool to scrape out residue. My overall solution would be just using a screen bottom board without the bottom board. BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Dick" To: Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 7:23 PM Subject: Re: Screen bottoms > I also wonder how many use the large surface area type described on Barry's > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:37:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Pesticide spraying for West Nile MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello JJ and All, J.J. wrote: > William - have you thought of pointing out to your Agriculture > Department the damage that will have been caused to the farming industry > there if all the bees have been killed? Better still, get some of the > farmers to do so! You are 'just a moaning bee-keeper', but farmers are food producers and *taxpayers*! Several years ago spraying was done in south Florida incorrectly and thousands of hives were lost. The beekeepers problem fell on deaf ears. Several large commercial beekeepers were told their only recourse was to sue. They did and lost. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. Are not beekeepers food producers and taxpayers JJ ? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Simon Subject: cleaning Pierco frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings. I have recently been given a 50 Pierco frames. Some are moldy and all are generally pretty nasty. Anyone have any idea how I can clean them? A website that sells Pierco advised not to immerse in boiling water. Thanks for any ideas. -RLS __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Smart, Billy Y" Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain George wrote, > , and I never use the entrance reducer stick > (except for firewood); > If you don't reduce the entrance for winter then how do you prevent mice from getting into the hives? Billy Smart Rock,KS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:38:41 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Wire Mouse Guards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > If you don't reduce the entrance for winter then how do you prevent mice > from getting into the hives? Wire reducers with mesh sufficient to let beeks out and keep mice out. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 07:48:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: pech Subject: Re: Screen bottoms In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: and I never use the entrance > reducer stick > (except for firewood); Why not use the entrance reducer? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:58:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Non toxic waxmoth control is to put your combs in the freezer for a few days. Handle them gently as chilled wax is bery brittle. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:18:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Julia Graham Subject: Re: wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200110091705.f99H55Y01794@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:58 PM 10/9/01 -0400, BeeCrofter@AOL.COM wrote: >Non toxic waxmoth control is to put your combs in the freezer for a few days. >Handle them gently as chilled wax is bery brittle. What happens when I have bees on them? In other words, do I pull any combs that have wax moth and shake the bees off and put in freezer and THEN put back on the hive? What if it has honey? Will this damage it for the bee's winter food? help! :) julia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:24:31 -0700 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Simon wrote: > > Greetings. I have recently been given a 50 Pierco > frames. Some are moldy and all are generally pretty > nasty. Anyone have any idea how I can clean them? I just threw away 10 frames w/Rite-cell after trying to clean them up. After soaking 2 of them in bleach water overnight I could see some improvement and the bleach tended to loosen some of the crud on the foundation. After scraping and scrubbing for 10-15 min I decided I had better things to do and tossed 'em all in the fire. Mine were cruded up from wax moth infestation. You might try taking them to the car wash - the pressure and soapy water might do the trick. I'm assuming they are the one piece frame & foundation type, otherwise the pressure will likely blow the foundation out of the frames. AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:02:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by loisg@WEBSHOPPE.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove the entirety of a previously posted article. ----------------- Original message (ID=5865B830) (54 lines) ------------------- From: "lois george" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: Re: Re: wax moth control Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:02:26 -0500 Julia, you have my sympathy. I have taken out the combs and manually destroyed the larvae--several days in a row. The honey is pretty much gone. My question is if I begin feeding the bees, will they be able to make enough honey to see them through the winter? Would putting up a bug light near the hives help destroy the moths? Has anybody tried this? Lois ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:56:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kim Flottum Subject: Don't Clean Frames At The Car Wash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A friend, who keeps bees, owns a car wash, and reads this list once told me the havoc the above activity caused his business...the wax doesn't dissolve, go away or anything other than plug the drains. This goes for extractors and other beekeeping equipment, including plastic frames. If you wash, wash them at home and keep the mess where it belongs. This is no different than keeping your bees to your self, and not sharing with neighbors when it comes to flight patterns, water and other annoying habits they have. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:15:23 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mark Horsnell Subject: Re: wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi tim, ----- Original Message ----- > I notice that paradichlorobenzene isn't EPA regestered for use in > California. Can I please have a recommendation for something to use for wax > moth control? wax moth can't survive in a breezy environment. for brood boxes: stand yr boxes on their end (so the frames look a bit like a jail bar grille) & leave them out in the open air.... preferably with them directed towards any prevailing wind. for honey boxes: lay a pallet on the ground, put down a queen xcluder, stack the boxes (as many high as u like) on the xcluder, put another xcluder on top of the stack, then another pallet on top of that. u can then cover the top with a tarpaulin or some kind of sheeting. the rationale is that air will run in the bottom, up the stack & out thru the top. i hope this helps, mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 14:35:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Don't Clean Frames At The Car Wash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is very true. I know of an individual that takes his queen excluders to the car wash... I wouldn't want to be him when the owner catches him. I usually clean my frames when they are warm. I use my hive tool to scrape off the wax. The bees will square things away after that. BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Flottum" > A friend, who keeps bees, owns a car wash, and reads this list once told me > the havoc the above activity caused his business...the wax doesn't dissolve, > go away or anything other than plug the drains. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:55:02 -0700 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Don't Clean Frames At The Car Wash MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Flottum wrote: > > A friend, who keeps bees, owns a car wash, and reads this list once told me > the havoc the above activity caused his business...the wax doesn't dissolve, Neither does gravel, oil, or tar, all of which end up in the drains at the carwash. AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:53:49 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Yarnell Organization: Oregon VOS Subject: Re: Don't Clean Frames At The Car Wash In-Reply-To: <200110091758.f99HweY04469@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Clean 'em on your own property using a rented or borrowed pressure washer. I was skeptical about the practical uses of a small pressure washer until I used one. Made quick work of queen excluders. If you do it on a floor with a drain, make sure there is a screen over the drain so you can recover the was and keep it out of any drain or septic system. You can put disinfectant solutions in the water if you feel it's required. On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Kim Flottum wrote: > A friend, who keeps bees, owns a car wash, and reads this list once told me > the havoc the above activity caused his business...the wax doesn't dissolve, > go away or anything other than plug the drains. This goes for extractors and > other beekeeping equipment, including plastic frames. --------------- Richard Yarnell, SHAMBLES WORKSHOPS | No gimmick we try, no "scientific" Beavercreek, OR. Makers of fine | fix we attempt, will save our planet Wooden Canoes, The Stack(R) urban | until we reduce the population. Let's composter, Raw Honey | leave our kids a decent place to live. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 17:40:33 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Billy Smart, I install a piece of 1/4" Hardware Screen which measures 14 1/2" wide by 2" tall I install it in October and remove it in March. BTW, in case you don't know it, mice can enlarge the entrance of a wooden reducer by chewing on it. However, THAT is not the reason I won't use them. I want "wide open" ventilation of the colony in the winter, because ventilation is so beneficial to the natural living conditions of a bee. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:00:37 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BOTH Lois George and Julia's hives have much bigger problems than wax moths! Wax moths can not live in a healthy colony of bees because the bees control the wax moths. Obviously, there are not enough bees in the colonies if live wax moths (larvae) are found in the colonies. Why are the colonies short of bees? Are they sick with Foul Brood, Varroa mites, lack of food, inferior queen, pesticide kill, Nosema, or several other things? I think every beekeeper should understand that wax moths cannot damage a colony of healthy bees! Ann they absolutely can NOT kill a colony of bees. If doubt this, read ANY STANDARD HONEY BEE BOOK. If you find live wax moth larva or flying adult moths in your colony, your bees are sick with something, or you have started a new colony too late and it has not been able to build its strength of population. I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 16:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Julia Graham Subject: Re: wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200110092309.f99N99Y22010@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:00 PM 10/9/01 -0400, GImasterBK@AOL.COM wrote: >BOTH Lois George and Julia's hives have much bigger problems than wax moths! Oh, I know that already! I haven't posted much to this list, but I went through quite a time with my hive this year. First year package bees. They swarmed in late July (bad) and I captured the swarm (good), but both hives went queenless (bad) so I re-queened (good) but they killed them both (bad) but managed to re-queen one (good) and combined both hives a week later (good). However, they lost a good 5 weeks of laying so the hive was weakened. Add to that that our summers are cool and foggy and the bees didn't have much of a chance to forage. Plus it's so damp, chalkbrood has been a problem. They seemed to be doing GREAT a few weeks ago, but obviously are stressed, so I'm not at all surprised that some new hideous thing has struck. This has sure been a hard year for a beginning beekeeper. No honey for me either - the bees have about 40lbs for the winter (usual for this area which has mild, though very wet, winters). Bleah. But I'll be taking a peek for the wax moths when the sun gets out to warm the bees... Julia ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:47:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Sterrett Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Simon wrote: > Greetings. I have recently been given a 50 Pierco > frames. Some are moldy and all are generally pretty > nasty. Anyone have any idea how I can clean them. **************** Bees will clean off the mold. If the comb is merely moldy, let the bees clean it. If the wax has to be removed from the frames, try freezing some of the the frames (in a plastic bag in a freezer) and then flexing them to free the wax. If that does not work, try rubbing or gently scraping the frozen wax off the frames. Tim -- Tim Sterrett sterrett@fast.net (southeastern) Pennsylvania, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:23:55 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200110091705.f99H54Y01791@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200110091705.f99H54Y01791@listserv.albany.edu>, BeeCrofter@AOL.COM writes >Non toxic waxmoth control is to put your combs in the freezer for a few days. >Handle them gently as chilled wax is bery brittle. How long is 'a few days'? In an electrically powered freezer -18 degrees C ( 0 deg F) will be achieved within a few hours. Would 48 hours at this temperature be sufficient? regards -- Mike Rowbottom HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:48:53 -0400 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Screened Bottoms Greetings I am familiar with the theory and research done on screened bottoms. I read with interest the comments on what screens *do not do*. (They don't cut down on production, increase winter kill, etc.) But nobody said what they do. What is their effect in a *real world* situation and how do we know if this effect is due to the screens? Have they made possiblen any other changes in management technique? Comments? PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 06:36:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: reno Subject: West Nile Spraying, EPA Visit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday I was visited by an EPA inspector for the State. He questioned my practices with pesticides and filled out a lot of forms and an affidavit as to my losses. He was not particularly concerned, it seemed, with the aerial spraying, but with what I may have done, or what my neighbors might have done with pesticides. I had already contacted the County Agent and he also seemed not to be particularly concerned, but would pass along the complaint. The EPA guy said that he would be back in contact with me when the laboratory results were completed. I will wait and see. My bee inspector called last evening and again told me that there have been hundreds of complaints from bee keepers here in North Florida that have been affected by this spraying and that the EPA for the state is staying busy investigating, so maybe NEXT time they will comply with the label..Will Lewis... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:46:15 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200110101139.f9ABdHY11937@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:23 AM 10/10/01 +0100, you wrote: >In message <200110091705.f99H54Y01791@listserv.albany.edu>, >How long is 'a few days'? In an electrically powered freezer -18 >degrees C ( 0 deg F) will be achieved within a few hours. Would 48 >hours at this temperature be sufficient? If there is sufficient air flow between the frames that should be enough. Single frames thrown in the freezer have been dead in less time. However, a member of our local group has observed wax moth larva when placed in a chest freezer in full boxes of frames huddled together and were still alive after 3 days. We suspect they had enough mass to keep warm. Space between the boxes, and a small fan in the freezer should fix the problem. (or a longer period of time). -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:14:40 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames Actually the beauty of plastic frames is their ease of cleaning and reuse. I had a hive die off this summer and the Pierco frames were the only ones I could save because of wax moth damage. Merely scrape off all damaged or moldy comb with a hive tool and throw that in the fire. The scraped frames can be given back to the bees, who will clean off all mold, bits of debris, etc., and rebuild perfectly good comb on the plastic midribs. Don't try boiling, soap, or anything like that - it is not necessary. The only thing to be concerned about is AFB. If the colony died of that, I would discard the frames. Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:21:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This message was originally submitted by GImasterBK@AOL.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. ----------------- Original message (ID=615F46A7) (49 lines) ------------------- From: GImasterBK@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:31:24 EDT Subject: Re: Screen bottoms To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Pech, The entire talks about the use of screened bottom boards instead of wooden bottom boards should give you a clue that it has been FOUND that bees do better OPEN to the air rather than closed in like we humans do in our homes in winter. Without going in to great detail, the bees were here long before we humans had heated homes. God, or nature, has provided for them the way to live in cold weather, and efforts to change that have damaged the bee's way of living. I suggest you read page 830 in THE HIVE AND HONEY BEE, 1992 Extensively Revised Edition which discusses wintering rather fully. When I began beekeeping in 1933 under the direction of Dr. James I. Hambleton, Chief apiarist of the USDA, he taught me to never reverse the bottom board to its shallow side position, never use an entrance reducer, and always have an upper entrance at the top of the hive. This provides great ventilation for the bees, and removes the DAMPNESS, which is a major killer of bees. Other scientists have subjected colonies to temperatures of as low as -60°F for 30 days and the bees did fine, proving that COLD does not kill bees, but many other things do, like northwest winds and dampness. Before my disabling strokes, I kept as many as 135 colonies in both Maryland and northern Virginia and lost very few colonies during the winter. Now I keep only 20 colonies, but have not lost a colony during the winter for several years. I hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:16:19 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: seppo.korpela@MTT.FI Subject: Re: Screened Bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110101250.f9ACoEY13538@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > But nobody > said what they do. What is their effect in a *real world* situation and > how do we know if this effect is due to the screens? Have they made > possiblen any other changes in management technique? Comments? > For the benefits of screened bottoms see http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/bodem.html for a study of Helmut Horn on the subject. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:40:30 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Wax moth control MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" There are volumes in the BEE-L archives on wax moth control. Wax moth traps, charts telling how long at what temperatures to kill all stages of development, VOLUMES! Bee-l archives can be searched at: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l Aaron Morris - thinking BEE-L archives, use 'em early, use 'em often! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:57:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screened Bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit seppo.korpela@MTT.FI wr > For the benefits of screened bottoms see > http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/bodem.html > for a study of Helmut Horn on the subject. Exceptionally good read. One thing that stands out is reduced brood rearing that occurs with open bottoms over winter. Like George said, it is not cold that kills. Helmut shows how reduced brood rearing leads to more bees surviving the winter but a slower spring buildup. However, I did not notice any difference overall with my bees production this year, so there may be benefits during warm weather that offset slow spring buildup. There are many things in the article which seem counterintuitive (but make sense after you see what actually happened and why), but that seem the norm with bees. As usual, Seppo, you have great sources of information. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:43:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Screen bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110092301.f99N10Y21758@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George has written a few messages recently (and perhaps others not as recently) talking about the use of screened bottom boards and non-use of entrance reducers in order to promote ventillation in the hive, even during the winter. Each time I read about this I wonder if it is applicable in climates like mine in Eastern Ontario, where winter lasts a good long time and temperatures are sometimes below -20C (Less than 0 degrees F) for a week or to at a time, and not infrequently reach -30C. With open screened bottoms it seems to me that the hives are going to be pretty much the same temperature inside as out - is that the case? Can my bees survive long periods of time at -20 degrees? I'm told that bees here start raising brood again towards the end of February. My understanding is that chilled brood is dead brood. Can the bees maintain a survivable brood nest temperature in a ventilated hive with an inside temperature of -20 degrees C? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: wax moth control As a queen breeder, I'm often rotating comb out of hives for temporary storage. These combs are stored outside in deep supers, on a concrete slab. The combs often contain amounts of honey, pollen and even brood. I use several biological (and zero-cost) methods to control wax moth. First, ants, which strip most things out of the comb, but leave comb perfect. These are small, black "sugar" ants. Second, I ensure hiding places for lizards (about seven inches long), spiders, frogs and toads. The storage area is lit at night. Third, insectivorous birds, which visit the storage area. This system eliminates wax moth and hive beetle infestation of comb. The only upkeep required is for the ants, which can be thrown some kitchen refuse, empty honey pails, and so on. Barry Sergeant Kyalami, South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 19:45:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a chapter on drone congregation areas in Beowulf Cooper's book The Honeybees of the British Isles. Its complicated. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Screen bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Frank asks: > Can the bees maintain a survivable brood nest > temperature in a ventilated hive with > an inside temperature of -20 degrees C? This is EXACTLY what is being written about screened bottom boards. It is commonly accepted amongst researchers (and even beekeepers are getting it) that good hive ventillation is preferable to air-tight hives that have been the winter's goal for previous decades! This is not to say that wide open, drafty hives will become the norm, you do not want gaping holes in your hive bodies, but you want good ventillation. What has been discovered (rediscovered?) is that a hive that allows good air flow so that freezing cold, fresh air can come into the hive to replace the moist, damp air produced by the bees' metabolic functions is ideal. A screened nottom board and screened entrances will allow fresh air to come into the hive as the relatively warm, moist air rises out of the hive through the upper entrance. This turn over of fresh air is GOOD for your bees. Bees DO NOT/NEVER DID warm the insides of a hive, they only warm the volume of their winter cluster. Winter raised brood is raised within the interior of the winter cluster. Cold DOES NOT/NEVER DID kill bees. Prolonged confinement in a cold damp environment is the main cause of winter kill in a beehive. When I was in my "newbie" years I ended up with a hive of mean nasty bees, which I figured were better off DEAD! To accomplish this goal I purposely left the cover off the hive during February and March. The bees survived! Now THAT'S ventillation! Aaron Morris - thinking good ventillation! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:51:10 -0500 Reply-To: bkeep@epix.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Richard Chapin Subject: screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Ohio Bee Farmer for the obvious solution to the problem of bees and wasps entering the old bottom board from the back. I have two out of six with that problem and will close the back entrance, probably with 1/4 inch hardware cloth -- same as at front entrance. As for tipping the hive to the back to drain any water entering the reversed old bottom board, I have solved that with an extension on the back of my homemade screened boards, keeping snow and rain out. The design is described, with measurements, on page 30 of the Aug. Bee Culture. Also, if hives are tipped backwards, water would enter from the screened board entrance, causing more dampness on the lower bottom board. I also use removable screens to prevent the build-up of dead bees during the winter, which is unhealthy and would hinder the monitoring of mites. Finally, I still think that ventilation, bottom and top, is a major factor in the survival of a healthy colony. That and a dose of Fumidil is very effective. Dick Chapin Montrose, PA School Visitor Editor, Susquehanna "Buzzer" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:20:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: A Report From The Car Wash Comments: cc: "kim@AIROOT.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim Flottum said: > A friend, who keeps bees, owns a car wash, and reads this list > once told me the havoc the above activity caused his business... My suggestion is that if your MUST take bee equipment to the car wash, be sure to insist on NO "Hot Wax Treament", even if it is available at no additional charge. Next stop, the dry cleaners... :) jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 04:52:24 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >There is a chapter on drone congregation areas in Beowulf Cooper's book The >Honeybees of the British Isles. Its complicated. >Chris Complicated, yes, but I don't think it answers the question. Cooper's argument is that (in our UK climate, which probably isn't too conducive to the classic mating assembly), there are three distinct types of mating behaviour. The first is apiary vicinity mating, when the queens mate on short, local flights, apparently with drones from nearby hives. This will obviously be an advantage in the bad weather we often get in early summer. Then there is the short-lived bubble assembly. Drones congregate in a bubble of warm air near the apiary, taking advantage of what might be a very brief spell of good weather. In this case, I would imagine they just head for the nearest warm air, and again, the queens probably mate with drones from nearby hives. Lastly, there's the classic distant assembly. This forms during spells of settled hot weather, and attracts drones and queens from a large area. They may form regularly at the same spot for many years; Cooper mentions one which was recorded by Giblet White in the 18th Century; he found one on the same spot. In the UK, they usually form during the second half of June and in July. In combination, the three create a situation where one would expect inbreeding in bad years, and outbreeding in good years which allow distant assemblies to form. I can't see where I put Cooper's book, and I hope I haven't misrepresented him at all. It's a good question, though; how do the bees find the distant assemblies? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:02:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: screen bottoms, upper ventilation, and "experience" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Aaron Morris' email received today on the subject of ventilation should b= e required reading by all new beekeepers. But these are not easy concept= s and they certainly point out a fallacy of new beekeepers learning from = successful old-timers. Someday I may write a book or article on beekeepi= ng practices that succeed despite inherent flaws that are fatal to bees! = I am collecting quite a list, and some of these deal with ways of removi= ng moisture in very cold, humid, climates. Exactly what we have here in = the Great Northeast. Back in the days before widespread use of Carnolians, winter hives had lo= ts of bees at all times and during most of those times also had a fair am= ount of brood. Huge winter clusters and almost-year round brood rearing = are general characteristics of Italians. These characteristics required = lots of heat production, and as the warm moist air rose within the hives = it met the cold air/cover's) and the moisture condensed as the air cooled= . Potential disaster was everywhere, but successful beekeepers adjusted. The Beekeeping Tribe knew that our terribly cold winters required that hi= ves be tight as drums ("tribal knowledge") to help the bees keep warm, an= d they also knew that they had to somehow deal with all the moisture that= would be produced through condensation. Around these parts the Tribe mo= stly decided to use "Homosote" boards (A.K.A. fiber boards) during the wi= nter, under their covers. (Members of the Tribe must be commercial beeke= epers, so they "automatically" do not use inner covers.) To this day, m= ost Tribe members faithfully put these on in the late fall and take them = off in the spring. These boards are made of pressed sawdust, and readily absorb moisture. W= hen they are taken off in the spring they are so wet from absorption of c= ondensate that water can be squeezed from them like a sponge. They must = be stored in a dry place for the summer (most store them in a barn) as fr= equent rain and thunderstorms would make them so wet they would fall apar= t. When put back on the hives in the late fall they are much lighter tha= n in the spring and almost dry. However, there are renegade Tribe members who have a different method of = dealing with the condensate. I know one of these and every year about th= is time he has dozens of bales of straw outside his honey house. As hive= s are prepared for winter, each has an "extra" (empty) deep put on top an= d it is filled with loose straw. I am told that in the spring the straw = is saturated from all the condensate. Now, Tribe members are extremely successful beekeepers. Large percentage= s of their hives survive the winter and every year they have good harvest= s. Most support their families solely from beekeeping. While they somet= imes make mistakes (as do we all), their overall success speaks for itse= lf. In some instances, such as not providing adequate ventilation during= the winter, they are just plain wrong but still succeed because of pract= ices that serve to offset those mistakes. Providing a means to absorb mo= isture, instead of letting it escape, is an example of such a practice. = "There is more than one way to skin a cat." Of interest (to me) is that today Tribe members have almost wholly change= d to Carnolians, yet they have not changed some of their basic practices = that were established to deal with a disadvantage of Italians. Another s= tory...another day. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:50:16 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually the beauty of plastic frames is their ease of cleaning and reuse. I had a hive die off this summer and the Pierco frames were the only ones I could save Oh - so *that's* what Pierco's are - I was wondering! Are these available in the UK? I'm sure I haven't noticed them in the catalogues. BTW, how come so many people have enough room in their freezers for numbers of frames? Ours always seems to be full of *food*.... I might manage to make room for one frame at a time.... J. J. EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:11:36 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Computer Software Solutions Ltd Subject: Resistant mites Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All It would appear that a beekeeper in Devon UK has done a terrible disservice to the beekeepers in Devon and as a result to all UK beekeepers and probably further afield. What must one say to beekeepers to get us to observe the manufacturers instructions? We recently had a Dublin beekeeper on this List (no name no pack drill!) advocating putting strips at the entrance to the hive. I recently had an e mail from a beekeeper to say that he was thinking of putting strips on his hives at this time and leaving them on until Spring. How many more beekeepers are busily beavering away with crazy procedures and we never get to hear about them? No wonder we have resistant mites. But the problem is as I see it anyway, is that the entire system is so dependant on decisions made privately by individual beekeepers. A beekeeper with hives near you can determine whether there are going to be resistant mites in your area sooner rather than later. We just do not have an answer to this problem as I see it. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 07:31:44 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: jaugusta Subject: bin Laden and honey-- Comments: To: bkeep@epix.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting story in today's NY Times on bin Laden's network use of honey and honey shops to transport weapons and other goods: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/11/international/middleeast/11HONE.html Joseph ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 05:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, > In combination, the three create a situation where one would expect > inbreeding in bad years, and outbreeding in good years which allow distant > assemblies to form. The above may be true with a small apiary. Very little inbreeding occurs with large scale queen rearing and migratory beekeeping. The best queens in my opinion come from queen breeders which also run a large number of hives. They pick their breeder queens each year out of a huge number of hives. I have had the best luck with production queens picked in this way. Inbreeding can fix undesirable traits in your bees. The constant *drift* of drones in migratory operations gives hives a mix to help prevent inbreeding. Drones being able all summer to go freely in and out of any hive they choose keeps down inbreeding. Even our II SMR queen hives with only black carniolan drones have always carried a huge number of Italian drones hanging around. These are simply drifters which have taken up residence. Drifting drones in my opinion is natures way of keeping down inbreeding. Also natures way of spreading varroa. My production hives are Italians but I find black drones as far away as 10 miles from my carniolan yard. . I believe these have simply drifted from yard to yard as locations are about 2-3 miles apart. What carefree spirits these drones are and what a rude awakening for the drones come the first cold fall day. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:23:00 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > What carefree spirits these drones are and what a > rude awakening for the drones come the first cold fall day. Ah, yes - I remember when we got our first colony and installed them in the garden. We came back from our holiday and went to watch them working, and found the drones being thrown out. We spent several hours and I don't know how many rolls of film that afternoon, fascinated, watching the drones circling and whistling innocently as they looked for a chance to sneak back in, only to be stopped by the 'doormen' again. I miss having them there now. J. J. EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 10:23:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Resistant mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom and All, There are two kinds of beekeepers: "Those with resistant varroa and those going to get resistant varroa". Further: "With overdosing and underdosing you still get resistant mites" Also: "Using according to label instructions you still get resistant mites" solution: Alternate with a completely different chemical (which you across the pond did not do and hence the problem !). Quit placing blame and look for a solution! Maybe a non chemical solution of which there are many. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:47:44 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, They do 3 things that I can think of instantly. 1. They improve ventilation. May not be connected but I see less chalkbrood with a mesh floor. 2. The living mites that drop to the floor keep falling. This apparently is between 17% and 57%. Dr Jeff Pettis has experimentally shown that if there is a gap of at least 2" between the mesh floor and any solid floor they don't get back on the bees. Les than that distance and they do. At half inch space they all get back. 3. They enable a tray to be slid in for a 24 hour natural mite drop check this enables the beekeeper to determine whether or not to treat. Less treatments = delayed resistance. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 08:02:12 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The practice of putting on absorbent top covers to soak up moist air seems to work and is basically sound since water vapour is lighter than air and therefore will rise - all other things being equal. What about reports then of practices of putting on non absorbent/insulated top covers. Well at least they will stop the rising (and probably slightly warm) water vapour from condensing back into water when it contacts the cold top cover. Now about other things being equal - If a screened bottom board is used , the natural drafts caused by passing wind outside the hive, probably cause enough air currents inside the hive to overcome the gentle upward rise of the water vapour coming off the cluster, and the water vapour probably gets flushed out through the screened bottom by these relatively stronger currents. Having an "open" top or a "closed" top would make little difference in this case, but if closed it could be argued that it would be better to be an insulated top rather than not. I guess extreme cold conditions (well below freezing) maybe also favour some top insulation. So the question is - with screened bottoms should the top be open or close or does it matter. Alan Riach Bathgate,Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: Screened bottoms 2. The living mites that drop to the floor keep falling. This apparently is between 17% and 57%. I am familiar with all the studies and theories. I wonder if the use of screens reduces mite infestation in the real world. If it is to be used as an IPM tool, it must have some effect on the colony that can be seen. If I have 200 hives I want to know if building all new bottoms is going to pay off in terms of reduced mite infestation. If I still have to treat with chemicals every spring and fall, what's the point of replacing all my bottom boards? PB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 11:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames Comments: cc: jj@EJOG-ENT.DEMON.CO.UK In-Reply-To: <200110111323.f9BDNWY00459@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Appliances here in the United states are markedly different than those in europe, as I understand them. Washing cycles and methods of heating water are different in the laundry, and our freezers and refrigerators tend to be larger. Americans tend to shop once every week or two, rather than making frequent trips to the market, as I understand is the practice in Europe. In the past, many people gardened and stored huge quantities of food from their gardens in the freezer, or by canning it. This is somewhat less popular now, and it is easy to find old "Chest" freezers for little or nothing at estate sales.- I got mine free for hauling it away, and it holds two waist high stacks of supers with room to spare. I know many people with two or more "spare" freezers in the basement- sometimes upright, but often Chest style, since gandma or grandpa, or mom and dad liked to "Put up" a lot of food at once. When I'm not freezing supers, or storing comb honey, I use the extra space in my freezer to store my woolens. All my sweaters and Blankets go in the freezer all summer- again, to keep the moths at bay. Ellen Anglin J J Harrier wrote: BTW, how come so many people have enough room in their freezers for numbers of frames? Ours always seems to be full of *food*.... I might manage to make room for one frame at a time.... J. J. EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Mating zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello JJ and All, Bob wrote: > > What carefree spirits these drones are and what a > > rude awakening for the drones come the first cold fall day. JJ wrote: > Ah, yes - I remember when we got our first colony and installed them in > the garden. We came back from our holiday and went to watch them working, and found the drones being thrown out. We spent several hours and I don't know how many rolls of film that afternoon, fascinated, watching the drones circling and whistling innocently as they looked for a chance to sneak back in, only to be stopped by the 'doormen' again. Little known beekeeping tip: A quick look can tell the beekeeper if all his hives are queenright going into winter. Queenright like JJ's hive above the girls will be tossing out drones. Queenless will NOT be tossing out drones. In fact the drones soon learn this fact and the queenless hive is overrun with drones. Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:57:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Timothy C. Eisele" Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation In-Reply-To: <200110121313.f9CDDcY19147@listserv.albany.edu>; from alan.riach@WHICH.NET on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:02:12AM +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 08:02:12AM +0100, Alan Riach wrote: > So the question is - with screened bottoms should the top be open or > close or does it matter. It depends on how much snow you get. We get quite a lot here (generally nearly 3 feet by the end of December), and so the bottom board is quickly buried in the snow and stays that way until about mid-April. Since the snow pretty thoroughly prevents any air currents or drafts from blowing past the screened bottom, a top opening is vital for maintaining ventilation. Besides, with the deep snow I need to provide a top entrance so they can make cleansing flights during the late-january thaw, so it makes sense for the entrance to provide ventilation, too. -- Tim Eisele tceisele@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst wrote: > I am familiar with all the studies and theories. I wonder if the use of screens reduces mite infestation in the real world. If I still have to treat with chemicals every spring and fall, what's the point of replacing all my bottom boards? They do slow mite infestation, but varroa will still win if not treated. But, when used in conjunction with treatments other than strips, that cause mite fall (such as wintergreen patties) they keep the fallen mites out of the hive so can keep the infestation under some control. You will even have mite drop when you smoke the hive. So you may be able to reduce treatments with strips. They also have other benefits, especially in promoting ventilation in all seasons. Beekeepers in Denmark used them just for ventilation when moving hives for pollination. So I can see no drawbacks from using them except slower spring buildup. I would be interested in what the dynamics are on mites over wintering in open mesh floor hives. It would seem that there should be a fair number that succumb to the cold and fall, adding to the effectiveness of OMF. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 09:47:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Alan Riach asked: "So the question is - with screened bottoms should the top be open or close or does it matter." My observations here in Minnesota USA are that you still need an upper entrance. I am beginning to suspect one of the major benefits of an upper entrance is to allow cleansing flights under marginal weather. This helps the bees make it through longer confinement periods when they can't fully break cluster. It has to be pretty warm for them to crawl down to the bottom entrance several inches below the cluster for cleansing flights. Any comments or thoughts? This upper entrance does not have to be at he top of the hive. An upper entrance between the two deep broodboxes works fine here if the top is insulated to prevent condensation problems. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:48:08 -0400 Reply-To: Peter Borst Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: RFC822 error: DATE field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Peter Borst Subject: upper entrance Blane hits the nail on the head. The upper entrance is the one that matters in the winter, I don't think it matters much what the bottom is like. Especially if the hive is sitting in a couple of feet of snow. PB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:45:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation In-Reply-To: <200110121824.f9CIOiY02144@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In east TN, I don't think I can remember ever having enough snow to get over the lower entrance of most of my hives. Some are only on a single concrete block - I suppose we've had that much once or twice in my lifetime. And what snow we have usually melts off in a day or two, at the least within a week. So, it really depends on where you live. In lower SC, it might snow once or twice in a lifetime and the 3 years I was there might have dipped below 30 twice. Not much chance of lower entrances being blocked there. When in Denver, it started snowing two days after I got there (over a foot in the city, over seven feet in upper elevations) and I don't think it stopped until July (at which point we packed up and moved ). -Karen -----Original Message----- Alan Riach asked: "So the question is - with screened bottoms should the top be open or close or does it matter." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 19:23:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 10 Oct 2001 to 11 Oct 2001 (#2001-276) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/10/01 05:24:09 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << It's a good question, though; how do the bees find the distant assemblies? >> I remember reading somewhere, maybe Cooper, maybe not, that they head for a low spot on the horizon. I am not sure that is correct though as I think I found one on 12th May this year at the highest point in Dorset, a clearing on a wooded hill top above the 900' contour. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:02:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Riach said: > So the question is - with screened bottoms should the top be > open or closed or does it matter. I'd strongly suggest "open", screened bottom board or not, for all locations except the most frigid. Its not the heat, its the humidity! Moisture kills bees, not cold. Some may dismiss this as "a lot of hot air". I could not agree more. "Hot air" is the only ventilation mechanism one needs to keep one's bees dry in winter. Lucky for us, the bees make the hot air at no extra charge. I want LOTS of airflow. I cut "extra" holes near the "rear" of my inner covers, and staple 8-mesh over them to insure better airflow. (See below for details). I also notch not one, but TWO upper entrances into the "thick side" of my inner covers at the front. (George Imirie may have been the first to do this, I'm not sure.) I will try to explain my reasoning below. If doubtful, one could borrow a thermal-imaging unit of the sort used to find insulation problems in homes, and shoot pictures of one's hives this winter to "prove" all this to oneself. > The practice of putting on absorbent top covers to soak up moist air > seems to work and is basically sound since water vapour is lighter than > air and therefore will rise - all other things being equal. I'm not sure I agree at all with that approach as applied to the not terribly cold winters of Scotland (or Virginia, where I keep bees). While an absorbent material of some sort may seem a good idea at first, I don't like it one bit in light of a long and expensive education in physics: a) Your "water-vapor" is lighter than "other" air simply because it is warmer. Hot air rises. Moisture itself has no effect on air's ability to "rise". Warmer air is CAN carry more moisture than colder air. To test this, go outside on a day when you can "see your breath". Spray a fine mist of water from an atomizer. Your breath has less water content than the spray from the atomizer, but your breath makes a "cloud", while the spray from the atomizer does not. I'll say it again. Hot air rises. Hot air also just HAPPENS to be able to carry a larger "moisture payload" than cold air. b) Given (a), why trap moisture in the hive? I submit that, at best, it will raise the overall moisture level above the level possible when ventilating the hive (since a well-ventilated hive would roughly equal the exterior temperature and humidity, and winters tend to be drier and colder overall than other seasons). I want that moist air out, not "absorbed". c) What happens to this absorbed moisture when there is a sudden drop in temperature? I submit that the moisture will condense out of the material and drip, or freeze, later to melt, and drip down. It is clear that a drop in temperature would cause water to condense, and re-absorption of melted ice would be limited in a nearly freezing mass of absorbent material. (Try it in your own freezer versus not in freezer with wet and dry cloths) d) How MUCH absorbent material might one need? If one does not have enough, it would become saturated, which would be even more of a mess than (b) or (c). How much moisture do 50,000 bees generate? I dunno. I want to get the moisture OUT of the hive as quickly as it is produced. I certainly do not want to keep moisture IN the hive, not even for a short period. > What about reports then of practices of putting on non > absorbent/insulated top covers. Well at least they will stop the rising > (and probably slightly warm) water vapour from condensing back into > water when it contacts the cold top cover. If there is sufficient ventilation, the warm(er), moist(er) air will CONTINUE to rise, straight out the ventilation holes. I do not want it to collect against the inner cover at all! Now, I agree that the skimpy little hole in the middle of "standard" inner covers is not big enough to insure that this happens, creating the problem of the "soaked" el-cheapo (masonite) inner cover, but this is easy to fix. Make more holes, or make the hole bigger! While you are at it, scrap the masonite, and replace it with plywood. I think that the "porter bee escape" sized hole in inner covers is about as relevant to modern beekeeping as the skep. It is also clearly the limiting factor in how much ventilation your bees have. It not even as large as your hive entrance, let alone the area of a screened bottom board. As far as the utility of insulation, when people actually measured with thermocouples, they found that the temperature inside the hive, but away from the cluster was roughly the same as the outside air, contradicting the "commonly held misconception" that the bees heat the entire interior of the hive. This makes much more sense to me than the traditional view, and fits with the fact that bees cluster within the hive. (Think about it - if they heated the whole hive, clustering would gain them nothing!) The insulation seems to be a non-issue for all but the arctic locations where wrapping of hives is required. I want lots of airflow above all else. > If a screened bottom board is used, the natural drafts caused by passing > wind outside the hive, probably cause enough air currents inside the hive > to overcome the gentle upward rise of the water vapour coming off the cluster, If you have a hive without good top ventilation, the "natural drafts" across the bottom screen are unlikely to get rid of the warmer, moist air. Hot air rises, and the warm moist air rising off the cluster will go to (and get stuck at) the top of the hive. The air near the bottom of the hive may exchange with the external air, but a good model can be constructed with an upturned drinking glass and a lit smoker. Puff some smoke into the glass. Blow as hard as you like across the bottom of the upturned glass, and see what happens to the smoke at the top of the glass. Nothing much. Cover the bottom of the glass with 8-mesh, and you will get even less "tubulence effect". > and the water vapour probably gets flushed out through the screened > bottom by these relatively stronger currents. Given the experiment above, the air would have to sink below the cluster to exchange through the screen bottom alone. If the water vapor-laden air was cold enough to sink below the cluster, the water would no longer be as moist. Some (much?) water would have already condensed out, and dripped onto the bees, which would be very bad. The dewpoint (the measurement of the actual amount of moisture in air) goes up and down with temperature, and only colder air "sinks". Example: Contrast 30-degree air with a relative humidity of 100% with 72-degree air, also at 100% relative humidity. In both cases, the relative humidity is 100%, but the colder air's dewpoint is 30 degrees and the warm air's dewpoint is 72 degrees. The higher the dewpoint temperature, the more moisture is in the same volume of air. (This is why cold winter air dries out the inside of your nose.) Therefore, when temperature drops, moist air must give off some of its moisture, creating "rain" just as clouds do. > I guess extreme cold conditions (well below freezing) maybe also favour > some top insulation. I have zero experience with sub-zero beekeeping. Anyone want to address the case at "Ice Station Zebra"? Clearly it is different, since entire seminars are dedicated to the arcane art of "wrapping hives for winter". HACKING AWAY AT INNER COVERS (YES, YOU CAN BE A HACKER!) First, let me explain that my hives are "sideways", with the longer side facing South, and an entrance that runs the entire length of the long side. I like it much better, as one can stand behind the hive when working. Except for the bottom boards, my woodenware is identical to what one can buy, and most of my supers are second-hand "store-bought" woodenware. I cut two triangular openings with a saber saw, roughly 3 inches on a side, at the two "rear" corners of the inner cover. They simply cannot be too big, but they can be too small, so be generous. What's the "rear"? The end that does not have the upper entrances notched into it! The triangles are roughly 1/2 inch from the edges, equidistant from the corners. They are covered with 8-mesh, which is staple-gunned to the plywood with the shallow 1/8-inch deep staples. My only use for the "porter escape" hole (that oblong hole in the center) is for my bucket-type feeders , so I block it in winter with a "plug" of 1/2-inch plywood with a "flange" that is wider than the hole. It just "sits in the hole", and can be removed for summer or feeding at whim. Why make vents at the rear and close the vent in the center? Think about the sun, which will shine on the FRONT of your hive, and warm the wood. The bees are sure to cluster near the front surface of the hive, so the vents want to be at the REAR, behind, and not above the cluster. The airflow will insure that the moist air moves above and behind the cluster. (Open up a hive this March, and look at the cluster - betcha you will see a daytime cluster towards the front, just like I did every time I looked.) Now, here's where it gets tricky - you want to shim up the outer cover at the REAR, not the front. Keep the exhaust to the rear! jim A member of the "Society for Not Only The Obedience, But the Enjoyment of the Laws of Physics") ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:22:23 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: toxicity to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: We are trying to put together a report that will eventually go to EPA. The purpose is to show how bees could be used in the context of EPA's ecological risk assessments. Risk assessments try to be more quantitative than an environmental impact statement. The good news is that we know more about bees than most other terrestrial insects. The bad news is that there are some big gaps in the available data. Maybe some of you can help us fill them - by pointing us toward information resources that we may have missed. Ok: There are lots of publications on pesticides and toxicity to bees. We have all of the Atkins, Mayer, Johansen reports and have all of that information in an ACCESS database. It appears that many of the international listings of chemicals found in bees are often a repeat of these -- and virtually all of the lists in North America simply repeat these information sources. At least everyone seems to have adopted the toxicity classifications of how much chemical expressed as active ingredient per bee is considered to be non-toxic through highly toxic. We also know that chemical safety sheets in Europe include "Risk Phrases". In the R series of risk phrase categories, R 57 is one that addresses Toxicity to Bees. Question: We know other countries do some of their own pesticide testing. We also know that some don't like relying on data from the U.S. because of differences in climates, races of bees, etc. So, is there some place where one can find a common database that summarizes the results of toxicity testing with bees in other countries? Is there a common repository for all chemicals that are subject to R 57? Question: Worst case, we find a report that a chemcial is non-toxic, moderately toxic, highly toxic with no specific values. Often, we can find an LC50 or LD50 (the lethal concentration or dose that kills 50% of the bees). Occassionally, and more often in a paper on a specific test, we get lucky and find the equation for a regression or the slope and interval for a probit. In other words, the is a way to estimate toxicity at different levels than simply the 50% one, and in some cases, we can get some idea of how variable (uncertain) the estimates may be. Using a single "magic" numbers is called a deterministic approach. Its easy to do - compare the exposure you are interested in to the number, if its higher than the LC50 or LD50, you are likely to have a problem. But real chemicals and bees vary in how the dose affects the bees, so having some way of estimating the range of responses (called a probablistic approach) is preferred. In Europe, risk assessors sometimes calculate a hazard quotient (a ratio of the LC50 or LD50 to the Active Ingredient of the Chemical). That's a deterministic approach. So far, we haven't found anything better. So Question: Has anyone seen/done/found reports that provide the information needed to do more probablistic calculations? Finally, there is a lot of interest in calculating bioaccumulation factors -- how much is in soil or water or air versus how much is in bees. We have done some of this, the Italians and Croatians have also done some of this for both pesticides and industrial contaminants. Question: Are there others who might have the data needed to calculate uptake from soil or plant or water or air (how much is in the media versus how much ends up in/on the bee). Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:55:53 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, I am running SMR bees on small cell comb and have noticed an abundance of bee damaged mites in the debris below a screened bottom board. At least 50% of the mites show obvious damage by bitten. I didn't look for missing legs, etc. Other races are also damaging mites but to a lesser extent. Has anyone seen damaged mites on your SMR bees? Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:22:04 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii One problem I haven't seen mentioned. I cut out most of the bottom board and installed 1/8" hardware cloth on the top and reinstalled. A whole layer of bees then located themselves on the bottom side of the cloth! In that position they would catch any mites which fell through. So I stapled a sheet of plastic onto the bottom side to prevent this. Now I read that at this spacing, the mites will crawl back up. If I made and installed a sticky board both problems would be solved but I had hoped to do this an easier way. I suppose in late fall and winter few bees would congegrate on the bottom side but maybe not since they are likely congegregating on the top side, too. I wonder, too, how the mites fall through a layer of bees on top of the screen. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:39:25 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Assuming we are going to allow much more ventilation in the hive for the winter, top or bottom, it's going to have to be a mesh, too small to allow bees through, just to keep out the robbing wasps. OK, so how do we stop the propolising little sods bunging up the mesh and sealing it against the draughts? They've done it with our roof vents before now, and the mouse guards! J. J. EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:00:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, > I am running SMR bees on small cell comb and have noticed an abundance of bee damaged mites in the debris below a screened bottom board. At least > 50% of the mites show obvious damage by bitten. I didn't look for missing > legs, etc. Other races are also damaging mites but to a lesser extent. When did you install your SMR queens? What are your 24 natural mite fall amounts now? > Has anyone seen damaged mites on your SMR bees? I am not seeing any mites ON my SMR bees. A natural 24 mite drop is zero to 2 mites. We got our first SMR breeder queens on July fourth. Our production /open mated SMR queens were made up from brood from spring treated hives. Without additional information it is hard for me to quess but I will try. 1. I believe you must have made your SMR hives up this spring with a high varroa load or introduced the SMR queens into a hive with a high mite load. 2. Or you could have a reinfestation problem which only a chemical treatment would eleminate. 3. A third scenario might be that the drones your SMR queen open mated with reduced the SMR trait. My point is (as I posted earlier) that I only see chewed off varroa in the numbers you speak of in a hive with a 15 to say 30 24 hour natural varroa mite fall. I see almost none of said behavior in a hive which was treated with chemicals which provide a 90-98% control. I open mated my SMR breeder queen daughters with a carniolan survivor hive drones which had a zero mite fall in 24 hours at mating time. I will ask my partner to check his SMR breeder queen daughter queens which were open mated with drones from a Marla Spivak hygienic queen to see if he is seeing chewed off varroa on his sticky boards. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri Ps. I have been testing bees for varroa for a long time Dennis. I am amazed you are getting so many varroa on your sticky boards with using 4.9mm foundation plus SMR queens. Run a 24 hour natural mite drop and report back. You are not using a chemical and getting all these mites and noticing some with chewed parts are you? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:56:41 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Hendricks writes: >One problem I haven't seen mentioned. I cut out most of the bottom >board and installed 1/8" hardware cloth on the top and reinstalled. >A whole layer of bees then located themselves on the bottom side of >the cloth! I've seen this too, on both sides of the mesh, and also wondered until I realised that the bees on the top side were fanning; they were making a noise like a dynamo, which could sometimes be heard several yards away. Normally I have only found them doing this during a flow. This afternoon I gave the hives a gallon of heavy syrup each, and within a short time the same sound could be heard, quite loudly, though there were only a relatively few bees on the mesh. The bees on the bottom side appeared to be trying to find their way into the hive. The entrance needs to be about three inches away from the bottom in order to stop bees becoming confused and ending up in the wrong place. Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:30:06 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 13/10/01 05:12:10 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << If I still have to treat with chemicals every spring and fall, what's the point of replacing all my bottom boards? >> Peter, Do you really need to treat twice a year? I have only ever treated once a year. This year, a year after last treating, the mite drop on hives on open screened bottoms was between 2 and 12 in 24 hours, the majority being in single figures. So I didn't treat them this time but will test again every so often to avoid unpleasant surprises. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:18:27 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What race of bees do you have? They must be apis mellifera causica or a hybrid that is half CAUCASIAN like a Midnite Hybrid. Italians or New World Carniolans do NOT close off a screen bottom with propolis. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:11:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with almost everything Jim says in his long presentation. Bees don't suffer from COLD, but do suffer badly from dampness! Give a hive LOTS of ventilation in the winter, particularly using an UPPER ENTRANCE; and do NOT restrict the size of the bottom entrance. In fact, an OPEN 8 mesh screen bottom may be far better than the standard wooden bottom board in ALL area of the U.S. with the possible exception of those states bordering Canada. TIMES CHANGE! You have a computer. Your car has tubeless tires, You heat food in a micro wave oven. Your Daddy probably did not have any of these; so why use Daddy's ideas about keeping bees? Bee researchers and bee scientists are PAID to find these new management techniques that keep bees alive, healthy, and produce more honey. George Imirie Certified EAS MASTER BEEKEEPER ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 22:24:22 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Mating zones In-Reply-To: <200110110928.f9B9SRY25638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200110110928.f9B9SRY25638@listserv.albany.edu>, Robert Brenchley writes > The first is apiary vicinity mating, when the queens mate on short, local >flights, apparently with drones from nearby hives. This will obviously be an >advantage in the bad weather we often get in early summer. And autumn when they tend to supersede. A friend, without knowledge of Cooper's work, always expected to find "popped" drones in his colonies when his nucs and splits were being mated. I found such a drone on the roof of a split hive when she mated. This seems like AVM - why else would it be there? (Of course you'll tell me he could have been from that hive - or another in the apiary - and mated with another queen from somewhere else). > Then there is the short-lived bubble assembly. Drones congregate in a >bubble of warm air near the apiary, taking advantage of what might be a very >brief spell of good weather. In this case, I would imagine they just head for >the nearest warm air, and again, the queens probably mate with drones from >nearby hives. When I had hives at the bottom of the garden, and before I knew of drone assemblies, I did hear what I now believe to have been a drone assembly around my house. At the time, there were no obvious large foraging movements through the garden. This would fit with a warm uprising of air from the house roof. It persisted during warm weather. Though I still have a couple at home and there are about 16 within 600m I have not heard the sound since. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:40:53 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert Brenchly's comment about having at least a 3" solid board at the front of the screened area, in order to avoid bees becoming confused and going under the screen, is a useful piece of information and perhaps explains why the screened bottom board shown at beesource .com is shown as 4". Perhaps the 3/4" space above the screen is also important since a previous screened bottom frame which I made with a 1/2" space caused the bees to build brace comb down from the frames, although this frame was simply inserted between the deep and the existing solid floor (top bee space Smith hives). On the top ventilation versus insulated top cover debate I would probably favour ventilated tops but with the proviso that the ventilation should be at the sides rather than in the middle to prevent chimney drafts. It is common in the west of Scotland (a damp area) to insert a matchstick under each corner of the top cover in winter prior to replacing the roof. The absorbent top covers still used by many beekeepers in the UK on WBC hives (a type of twin walled bottom beespace hive) is usually placed directly on top of the frames and probably works by "wicking" the moisture right up through the top into the upper open ventilated space within the outer box. Water vapour as well as being colourless and much lighter than air is also "thin" and would escape through textile material easily.You can only see water when it recondenses into water droplets - as your breath on a cold day. Just as well water vapour is lighter than air or we'd have the clouds continually round our ankles. Alan Riach Bathgate,Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 08:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Howard Kogan Subject: Climate Zones The information available on Bee-L is excellent however it could be made even more useful! Would the contributors please say what Horticultural zone they are in or what state, so the readers can know whether the contributor is coping with the same or different climatic conditions? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:31:52 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please be wary of categorical and oversimplified statements about wintering, even if they sound convincing in theory or are vastly popular. Wintering is a complex topic that is very interrelated with other management practices and requirements are strongly dependant on locale. Wintering and spring issues have been covered in depth in the past on BEE-L and from many perspectives. Members in search of a wider range of ideas are advised to dig a little at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/ and to consult web sites (1) and texts. Although BEE-L can provide some ideas and understanding, the only way to be sure what will actually work in any given region is to meet neighbouring beekeepers and analyse their successes -- and failures. Remember that speculation, dogma, fads and partial truths tend to dominate discussion lists. This is part of the development and discussion of ideas, but while such development is underway, a lot of half baked ideas get chewed over. Wintering is a practical, rather than theoretical process, and although theory can give some guidance to practice, empirical success is much more meaningful than all the calculating and theorizing in the world. Also, it pays to keep in mind that repetition of a statement does not make it more true, any more than capitalizing it does. Often the truth is repeated less frequently than popular simplifications because the truth is often complex and not easily reduced to simple saws. It takes a lot more effort to state truths rigorously than to generalize and sloganize. For this and other reasons (2) those who really know the answers often can't be bothered to get involved in discussion, and although they may make occasional attempts to set things straight, are normally content to just ignore untruths, half truths and out right fantasy. If experts do bother to read the list, they often do so just to keep a finger on the pulse, for companionship, or for entertainment. There are, thankfully, exceptions on this list, but 9 times out of 10, experts just lurk and let others speculate and pontificate. (2) Therefore be sure to research the archives. Some gems exist. On the matter of wintering: The simple truth is that, even with all the research that has been done to date, we humans know very little about bees. Our understanding is at a very gross and macro level. A wise reader should doubt the pronouncements of anyone who declares, without reservation or respect for opposing views, that any specific thing is always so in regard to bees. In particular, I would like to say here -- once again -- that there can be absolutely no doubt in the mind of anyone who has much experience wintering bees outdoors on locations in Western Canada that wrapping in some form is normally essential to reliable success. Enough people have been taken in by naive pronouncements of southern 'experts' -- and lost most or all of their hives -- to prove this point conclusively. Over and over. Moreover, good things have been said about insulation used wisely, even in what many of us consider to be the south. As for whether bees are killed by cold, take a handful of bees and put them in the freezer for a while and see if they are dead. Then reconsider what has been said here recently. Moreover, beekeepers know that nucs and small hives are vulnerable to chilling of brood, serious set back, and even total loss due to even brief exposure to cold weather. There is definitely a colony size below which cold is deadly. Small hives do nicely, though, if protected from the cold. Larger colonies are better able to withstand (manage) cold, but all beekeepers know that colonies do best in sheltered locations compared to windy places or low spots where frost collects. Beekeepers know sudden temperature drops often result in bees being isolated from the cluster and perishing to the detriment of the colony, or in clusters becoming divided and perishing. Cold is a stress that consumes the bees resources, both individually and collectively and reduces their ability to deal with other stresses. Cold kills. It is just not as quick, certain or obvious as the result of a sudden drenching, starving or suffocation. Do bees heat the interior of their hives? Recent posts say 'no', with no reservation expressed. Well, this has been covered thoroughly in the past. I'll recap a bit here. Again. Bees do heat the hive interior, but not necessarily as the result of a deliberate attempt to do so. A cluster of bees releases heat. Some say it is equivalent to the heat given off by an average chicken. The interior of a tighter, smaller hive will naturally warm up faster than a larger draftier hive as a result of the cluster's cumulative body heat, due to lower comparative heat loss. At some point, the bees will break cluster and hive metabolism will drastically increase as result of this activity, resulting in further warming. This results in better access to food, possibly more brood rearing, foraging, etc. . In a larger, draftier hive, a similar cluster may never break in similar weather. This can be good or it can be bad, but it is true. This knowledge helps us manage splits and nucs -- as well as designing our wintering system. Studies have shown that steady temperatures around the freezing mark with controlled humidity and good air circulation are the best for successful and economical wintering of bees. Any method that can assist in moderating temperature swings and in managing cluster heat without eliminating the ability of bees to exit the hive when appropriate -- and without upsetting the moisture balance -- is bound to be beneficial. Hives wraps are used to this purpose in some management systems. Styrofoam hives apparently can be much warmer than wood hives and most who have used them have raved about how well the bees do. (1) Can you have too much ventilation? Of course you can. If a lid blows off a hive here in winter or spring -- even if there is no precipitation during that time -- it is pretty well a goner or, at minimum, badly damaged unless the lid is replaced within days. As for moisture being the killer, well, too much of anything can be bad, whether it be heat, air flow, food -- whatever... Studies show that bees regulate the humidity inside the cluster within narrow limits if they are able. Moisture is an essential supply for bees. Like us, bees are made up principally of water and need to maintain the balance in their bodies within fairly close limits. They need liquid water and they need some humidity. Without the correct amounts of vapour and liquid, winter or summer, they suffer, are weakened and ultimately may die. In Western Canada, bees starve in winter when on granulated stores, if they cannot find enough moisture to liquefy them. In extreme dry cold, on windy days excessive air flow air may suck the moisture from the hive and the individual bees in the cluster. Under such a scenario, any water from respiration that is not expelled by ventilation is immediately unavailable as it turns to ice on contact with cold surfaces and the bees may be in a dehydrated condition and lose any open brood. The challenge reverses a few days later when there may be excess moisture in the same hive as conditions change and ice melts. While the bees are in free air at the beginning of winter before they eat their way up through the hive, and wrapping is less essential, wrapping, particularly the insulation at the top of a hive, allows the top board and frames to be warmed by contact with the bees once they eat their way to the top. This allows the bees to spread out and to also to collect condensed water just outside the cluster as they begin brood rearing. Bees need water to raise brood. (3) Make no mistake. Air, water, and heat are all essential factors that must be *managed*, winter and summer, spring and fall, for bees to be successful. Bees can manage these things quite well by themselves under most conditions, and, indeed, their ability to mitigate conditions and to thrive under a wide range of environmental conditions makes it difficult to assess exactly what the limits of their abilities are and what optimal parameters might be. The goal of any successful wintering system is to ensure that the bees are housed in conditions that cause the least stress possible on the bees and the colony, by requiring little effort on their part to maintain acceptable airflow, moisture and temperature levels. No matter whether the bees are indoors or outdoor, wrapped or not, strongly ventilated or relatively closed, the goal is to ensure each bee maintains maximum lifespan and health so that the colony will be ready for spring. Adjusting hive volume, wrapping hives, and adjusting ventilation are some of the techniques that an observant and understanding beekeeper can use to help the bees survive and thrive. Spring brings on its own environmental challenges... allen http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ (1) Some web sites http://www.hunajainensam.fi/english/bees.html#a6-c http://reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/hivernage.fr.html http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2001/btdapr01.htm http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Spring/unwrap.htm http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/Apiculture/Wintering.htm (2) A few reasons why experts lurk and don't correct obvious lies and half truths There are too many lies and half truths: they never end Experts are experts because they use their time wisely Experts are usually pretty busy Experts have valuable reputations and often get attacked and abused if they reveal themselves Experts are often in sensitive positions and if they casually express personal opinions may find complaints are made to their employers and find they are subject to discipline for public conjecture There are more reasons... (3) Henry Pirker published a paper some time back entitled "Steering Factor Humidity" that showed how he could control brood rearing in wintered colonies at will by adjusting humidity. http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:35:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: cleaning Pierco frames MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J J Harrier wondered: > BTW, how come so many people have enough room in their freezers for > numbers of frames? Ours always seems to be full of *food*.... I might > manage to make room for one frame at a time.... I know nothing about Pierco frames, but I do have a chest freezer. It was free. If you read the classifieds and the "for sale" weeklies, you will often find ads that read something like: Chest Freezer - works fine. Moving - free to a good home. If you have a pickup truck, or know someone with a pickup truck or a Volvo wagon, you can have one for free. These beasties are heavy, so some slave labor (teenagers!) is also a big help. The older units are much less efficient than the newer ones, so I'd pass up anything more than 10 years old. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:57:20 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob and Everyone, Bob asked:. > When did you install your SMR queens? What are your 24 natural mite > fall amounts now? I replaced Russian queens with SMR queens on 7/10/01. Natural mite fall after 24 hours was typical as tracked in previous years at 2 to 50 with the majority less than 25. No damaged mites were observed. But by August 15th significant changes were noted. Bald headed brood uncapped at the purple eye stage by the bees was observed in some of the hives. Varroa were found in the bald headed brood. No varroa was noted in cells uncapped by myself on the same frame, even in the drone brood. Natural mite fall began to increase also. Almost all of the fallen mites were mature females. Some mites were seen externally on the bees themselves. I think re infestation, as Bob stated, is a major problem in my area. Mites are resistant to Apistan here with only 30% to 40% being killed. By mid September natural mite fall in these hives was about 150 per day with many of the mites being immature females and males. I saw a few bee damaged mites in the debris. Two weeks later the majority of the mites were immatures and males. The majority of fallen mites were showing bite marks in the SMR hives. One hive had over 90% of the mites damaged. Natural mite fall had decreased to less than 100 per day. External mites were rarely seen. Now natural mite fall is generally less than 25 mites per day in these hives. Other hives, primarily Carniolans, didn't follow the trends noted above. Natural mite fall continued to increase very slowly from just a few mites at the beginning of the season, to less than 50 mites per day mid season and decreasing somewhat toward the end of the season as brood rearing slowed. Hive inspections this weekend indicate that the Carniolans have started the same process began earlier by the SMR bees. About 100 mites/day containing bee damaged mites were seen and the bees were opening sealed brood at the purple eye stage. Bob asked: > You are not using a chemical and getting all these mites and noticing some with chewed parts are you? No chemicals of any kind have been used in these hives. Initially these hives were prepared by shaking Russian bees onto 4.9mm cell foundation. After they were established, they were treated with powdered sugar to minimize any initial high mite load. When mite fall reached 100 per day, I treated with powdered sugar to offset any mite immigration. The results were surprising. Initial daily mite fall from the treatment was around 25 mites! Less than that for a couple of days and then back to around 100 per day. It seems that the sugar treatment interfered with the cleaning the bees were doing themselves. My Russian breeder has also followed this trend, but without a single damaged mite being observed. Hope this helps. Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:48:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Climate Zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howard Kogan asked: > Would the contributors please say what Horticultural zone > they are in or what state, so the readers can know whether > the contributor is coping with the same or different climatic > conditions? The "Climate Zone" in my view is of little use in beekeeping. If you have never seen one of these maps, you can see one here: http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/ushzmap.html Despite the "new and improved" addition of "a" and "b" sub-zones, all the map does is define the lowest temperature recorded in the 1970s and 1980s. While this is (somewhat) useful for making a rough guess at which plants will survive where, it really is not of much use even for that purpose. Latitude is just as "accurate" in my view for defining overall climate factors for beekeeping purposes. For beekeeping, I want to know the "last frost date" above all else. Here's maps of "last/first freezes" and "last/first frosts" for the USA: http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/documentlibrary/freezefrost/frostfreemaps.html One also wants a good idea of the progression of blooming amongst the plants that provide nectar for bees. Here's the rules of the game (it is called "Phenological Events Tracking" by the bio-science majors): a) Last frost will vary year to year, but the maps provided by NOAA are the best estimate that can be made, and are updated every year. b) The number of non-frost days between last frost and bloom is fairly consistent for any one type of plant. I have seen some people track this in terms of "degree-days", which is a neat way to think about it, and is likely data available from your local TV weatherperson (just ask, and these folks will BURY you in data!). c) So, one can track the official "last frost", or one can track the blooming of some early plant (skunk cabbage and dandelions are my favorite "indexes") and extrapolate the blooming date of your major nectar sources. d) Now none of this is all that accurate, but it can allow you to get your supers on at least a week AHEAD of the expected bloom date. e) The period of bloom for any one plant is also pretty consistent from year to year, and is really only effected by sudden weather changes (like the week of rain and cold weather that knocked down a significant portion of the Tulip Poplar bloom last spring in Southwestern VA). So, one can also predict when to take supers off when one wants to go for "varietal honey". f) When in doubt, super your drawn comb early. The bees don't mind it one bit. :) We don't have a whole lot of fall-blooming stuff where I live, but the same approach works for predicting fall blooms. One also would want to keep an eye on first frost dates, since menthol is not going to bee of much use if the days are not warm. jim farmageddon (where last frost is roughly April 15th) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:16:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: Re: Climate Zones In-Reply-To: <200110150150.f9F1oaY02180@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James Fischer says pay attention to latitude - and that will tell you something about cold/warm climates. It doesn't say anything about wet/dry climates. Having worked with bees on both U.S. coasts, most western states, TX, TN, and visits to Georgia and Alabama with a few European, SE Asia, and Guatemala tossed in - I can say that proper bee management has to take into account humidity and rainfall, not just warm/cold. In dry climates, one can actually desiccate the brood nest. In wet climates, you can "drown" bees from condensation inside hives. The wide open hives with raised covers that I saw and ran in Maryland during the winter would not survive one of our subzero Montana winters with a howling wind blowing out of Canada - no offense Alan - but that's where our bitter cold comes from. Jerry Jerry J. Bromenshenk jjbmail@selway.umt.edu http://www.umt.edu/biology/bees