From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:56 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CCC24AE11 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO3r010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO3r010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0110C" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 199690 Lines: 4099 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:04:56 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: What's going on at The Pollination Home Page? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee Listers: The Pollination Page, your source of pollination info and images, has gotten so huge that I get lost there myself. Never fear. There is a search engine at the bottom of the index page, where you can search the page, or the entire Internet. If you want to know if there is anything about "feral honeybees," for example, indicate this in the search box, click The Pollination Home Page, and Enter. You'll find that there is a special section on that subject. Included is a brand new pictorial on transferring a feral colony from a cabin wall into a hive, along with a careful visual inspection of its health and parasite load. For just this time, I'll shortcut the process and give you the URL: http://pollinator.com/feral/feral_examination1.htm Taking shape is a brand new photographic plant/pollinator database at: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/databaseindex.htm This'll probably take the next twenty years of my life.... If you are careful and skillful with a camera, you may wish to contribute to this database. You'll find details at: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/contribute.htm Dan Mushrush has already contributed some awesome photos for a section on the New England Aster: http://pollinator.com/plant_pol/contributed/aster_novae_angliae.htm There is an expansion into themes on other beneficial insects, not only pollinators. You can find links to more info here: http://pollinator.com/beneficial.htm In the Gallery, there's a bunch of new photos, including such theme pictorials as: "It's Dangerous to Be a Pollinator." http://pollinator.com/gallery/dangerous.htm The all-time favorite place for visitors seems to be: "What's Buzzin' in My Garden?" a visual help to identify bees, bee mimics and other buzzin' insects around home: http://pollinator.com/identify/whatsbuzzin.htm Show that to the folks who can't tell a bee from a yellow jacket. Have you ever seen a wheelbug? -Exotic but more common than you may realize. Here's one closeup in the Gallery. You also can meet a dragonfly eyeball-to-compound eye in fascinating and beautiful detail. All photos with my copyright on them are free of charge for nonprofit, educational use, so if you have a bee presentation at your local school or garden club, check here for help. Conditions of use are at: http://pollinator.com/use_photos.htm Of course, there is still the worldwide list of beekeepers who do pollination service. Listing is free and there have been a number of new ones added lately. Please check your current listing for accuracy and update if needed. There is also a bulletin board for buying and selling bees and equipment, also free. Some old ads will soon be removed, so check if you have posted, and be sure to update. So far, everything is pretty much a free service. But if you have any extra funds wearing a hole in your pocket, contributions are always welcome. I have hopes someday of at least making the page self-supporting, but I'm not much of a businessman. I guess I'm having too much fun. Dave Green, AKA "Pollinator," AKA "The Pumpkin Patch Pimp" SC USA The Pollination Home Page: Pollination info and images: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis, As I said in the earlier post. I believe you installed your SMR queens in hives with a high varroa count. According to Dr. Marion Ellis a hive with a natural mite count going into a Nebraska winter with a natural mite count over 30 will not likely survive. Nebraska winters are tough and none of my commercial Nebraska friends winter in Nebraska except Dr. Ellis and hobby beekeepers. All go south. Since Marion wrote his article "Living with Varroa" many have put the threshold higher (Delaplane and Webster (2001). The new book *Mites of the Honey Bee* puts the threshold higher at 117. The book says a threshold over 117 can be treated but you can expect to lose the hive( pg. 234). Dr. Delaplane puts his treatment threshold at around 75 (I believe without looking up his article in ABJ). These counts are for August but do not take into consider severe winter and general hive condition. Why (i n my opinion ) the process is more complicated than these people say but these are general guidelines. Many different opinions are around Dennis. You can double check your natural mite count with a roll . Threshold is 15 using a 300 bee sample (Webster 2001). To be accurate you need (in my opinion) to count the bees in the jar afterwords. With the Sugar roll (Dr. Ellis) this is not possible (or not easy) but you do not kill bees. According to the above and in my opinion you did indeed install your SMR queens into hives which were close to a crash threshold for August. I am only trying to help out and give my opinion. You have provided accurate information so I can give my opinion (backed up by the experts). As I said in my earlier post on Bee-L we chose to treat this fall in our SMR installed hives and start the two year test in the spring with a normal varroa infestation coming out of winter . I can not see any hive with a infestation level as high as yours surviving a Missouri winter (150 mite natural fall) . Starting next spring we will leave untreated and monitor. If we had got our SMR queens last March I would have left untreated this fall Any which would have had a high threshold mite count would have been treated and removed from testing. . I care little what the rest of the beekeeping world thinks of my way of doing things but my way is logical to me. How long have your Russian queens went untreated. My quess is they were approaching the two year *crash point*. If they were in their third year untreated I would say you could have bred from the lowest mite count Russian queens and perhaps had a somewhat varroa resistant bee. If approaching the two year mark I would say your Russian queens were no more varroa tolerant than most mellifera. Only trying to be honest. I admire what you are doing Dennis. Maybe I should have sent the reply directly to you but feel you are like me and doing your work mainly for your own information. > I replaced Russian queens with SMR queens on 7/10/01. Natural mite fall > after 24 hours was typical as tracked in previous years at 2 to 50 with > the majority less than 25. No damaged mites were observed. I do not see damaged mites till the count climbs to around 30. > > But by August 15th significant changes were noted. Bald headed brood > uncapped at the purple eye stage by the bees was observed in some of the > hives. Varroa were found in the bald headed brood. No varroa was noted > in cells uncapped by myself on the same frame, even in the drone brood. > Natural mite fall began to increase also. Almost all of the fallen mites > were mature females. Some mites were seen externally on the bees > themselves. I assume you did not do a mite count on Aug. 15th. Five weeks later your bees should have been close to threshold in my opinion. All the signs you list above are found in hives approaching threhold. > I think re infestation, as Bob stated, is a major problem in my area. reinfestation totally screws up testing. If reinfestation occurs in the two year period I am testing (or our researchers) the tests are NOT accurate. Could be why your Russian queens are getting a high varroa count and not because of the bees tolerance of varroa. Isolated areas are hard to find but are required for varroa testing to be accurate. Several times we had to treat three times with Apistan in 1995 to keep down reinfestation numbers before winter. We pulled supers and treated early because of mite counts on a number of hives. We still had heavy winter loss. Reinfestation mite numbers can overwelm any hive. > Mites are resistant to Apistan here with only 30% to 40% being killed. I do not know how resistant the mites in your area are to fluvalinate but in Georgia Dr. Delaplane found hives in which Apistan was not working at all (ABJ article). They then become vectors for varroa and the problem is the same as when we had all the trouble when the feral hives were getting threshold mite counts and being robbed. When I got my first fluvalinate resistant mites I found those mites in only a couple hives in a yard but the number of hives with resitant mites grew. I moved the Apistan resistant hives to a remote yard to wait for a solution. My Italians will rob a weak varroa ridden hive in a heartbeat. The majority of fallen mites were showing bite marks in the SMR hives. One > hive had over 90% of the mites damaged. Natural mite fall had decreased > to less than 100 per day. External mites were rarely seen. We still have got work to do in getting a varroa tolerant bee. It would seem that the SMR trait helped but the bees were simply overwellmed by varroa. I would treat and hope for the best or introduce the SMR queen and several frames of bees and brood (nuc) into a treated strong hive for this winter > Now natural mite fall is generally less than 25 mites per day in these > hives. Everything you have said makes perfect sense up until now. Let me ask a couple questions. Has your bee population dropped accordingly to provide these lower mite counts? If you suspect reinfestation how do you explain the low mite counts? How do you explain the drop from 150 mites a day to 25? These hives are at a level I might not treat at now. Strange. SMR could be rewriting the varroa books. I see no other explanation. Please recheck and report back. I plan to say little about my SMR until after the SMR bees have passed the two year mark. In truth we have a couple hundred open mated SMR queens installed and treated ready for winter. Some will most likely winter in Texas. Our testing will begin in the spring. We are a little hesitant to switch entirely to SMR until we prove to ourselves the move is worthwhile. My SMR queens are mated to carniolan survivor drones and my partners to a Marla Spivak hygienic queens drones. My experimental hives never produce any honey and I have added frames of honey to get the survivor untreated bees to winter. It was either add honey or watch die last year. Did your Russian bees produce honey? What about the hives you introduced the SMR into? What about the Carniolan hives with the average untreated mite counts? How long have your bees been on small cell? Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:15:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Climate Zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For beekeeping, I want to know the "last frost date" above all else. > > a) Last frost will vary year to year, but the maps provided by NOAA are > the best estimate that can be made, and are updated every year. > > farmageddon (where last frost is roughly April 15th) Ee, it must be *wonderful* to have a proper climate, instead of just the 'weather' we get in the UK! I wouldn't put money on which *season* we'd get our last frost in, let alone what date! J. J. Herts, UK EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 05:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 10 Oct 2001 to 11 Oct 2001 (#2001-276) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How high [above ground] are these assemblies? I'm wondering how to spot one. I thought they'd be too high to see from the ground. J. J. > << It's a good question, though; how do the > bees find the distant assemblies? >> > > I remember reading somewhere, maybe Cooper, maybe not, that they head for a > low spot on the horizon. I am not sure that is correct though as I think I > found one on 12th May this year at the highest point in Dorset, a clearing on > a wooded hill top above the 900' contour. > > Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 11:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > I'm not sure I agree at all with that approach as applied to the not > terribly cold winters of Scotland (or Virginia, where I keep bees). While an > absorbent material of some sort may seem a good idea at first, I don't like > it one bit in light of a long and expensive education in physics: > d) How MUCH absorbent material might one need? If one does not > have enough, it would become saturated, which would be even > more of a mess than (b) or (c). How much moisture do 50,000 > bees generate? I dunno. > > I want to get the moisture OUT of the hive as quickly as it is produced. > I certainly do not want to keep moisture IN the hive, not even for a short > period. Homosoate is the material many of us use in Maine (it is the stuff in some ceiling tiles). It is cut to the dimensions of an inner cover and notched so it provides both ventilation and an upper bee exit. It absorbs moisture from the hive but also dries so does not get completely saturated but usually has a wet area over the innercover hole. That area acts as a source of water in the winter and bees will chew on it to get water. Homosoate boards do work and cause none of the harmful effects noted. I leave them on all year. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 07:40:21 +0100 Reply-To: Ruary Rudd Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ruary Rudd Organization: Westgate, waterville Subject: Re: Screened Bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris, According to the information given at Gormanstown two years ago, a natural drop of 10 mites was deemed to call for immediate action. Ruary Rudd ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: 14 October 2001 01:30 > This year, a year after last treating, the mite drop on hives on open > screened bottoms was between 2 and 12 in 24 hours, . > > Chris > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:55:54 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Climate Zones MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >... one of our subzero Montana winters with a howling > wind blowing out of Canada - no offense Alan - but that's where our bitter > cold comes from. No problem, Jerry. We get our bitter cold from Alaska, so it's actually yours in the first place. We're just sending it along. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 06:59:08 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick wrote: > For this and other reasons (2) those who really know the > answers often can't be bothered to get involved in discussion, and > although they may make occasional attempts to set things straight, are > normally content to just ignore untruths, half truths and out right > fantasy. If experts do bother to read the list, they often do so just to > keep a finger on the pulse, for companionship, or for entertainment. > There are, thankfully, exceptions on this list, but 9 times out of 10, > experts just lurk and let others speculate and pontificate. (2) > Therefore be sure to research the archives. Some gems exist. Interesting. So 90% of the posts on this list are opinion? Where might both your post and my answer fit? :) I think that the problem with the current discussion on screened bottoms is that there is limited experience by most in using them and you are getting experience vrs opinion, although it does creep in. The other problem is that the good trials I have seen are all in warmer climates than we have here in Maine so you have a practice that is in flux. Also, beekeeping is still quite a bit more art than science. And art does incorporate opinion, especially when it gets into new realms like screened bottoms and 4.9. Art also leads to using a combination of techniques which may disregard the approved method for several others that also work in that specific local. Beekeeping is not static. We learn of facts that turn out to not be true since the fact was either based on incorrect observations or theory that became fact. So the expert could be wrong as well as the archives. I have learned to appreciate the posts of certain individuals, including yours, as being informative and usually correct. I base my method of beekeeping on George Imire and Tony Jadczak advice and have succeeded because of them. But even they have taught me things that have recently been disproved. They disagree with experts, yet they are experts. And some of the most enlightening discussions on this list are when the experts argue their positions. Obviously, both science and opinion are involved. So are the opinions facts or the facts of the experts, opinions? I will wager that several of your over wintering points are disagreed with by experts on this list. Since I am not an expert, I can only hope that they will not "just lurk and let others speculate and pontificate". (Humor there.) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:37:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The mite infestation and fall conditions Dennis Murrell described are inconsistent with SMR bees and sound to me more like hygienic behavior. In SMR bees, mites simply do not reproduce to any great extent. SMR stands for Suppressive Mite Reproduction. This is not the same as the bees do not tolerate mites (as in bite them, kick their butts, throw them out, discard pupae infested with mites). The latter is a behavioral trait, the former is a genetic trait. Both traits are good, but they're not the same thing. Adding 4.9 cell size to the converstaion just adds another parameter to a converstaion that was mis-named in the first place. The way I interpret what Dennis describes is that his SMR bees aren't SMRing, but they are exhibiting the behavior attributed by the 49ers to 4.9 cell size. Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:50:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell said: > Homosoate is the material many of us use in Maine Yeah, Maine is far colder than Virginia (or Edinburgh Scotland, which has roughly the same "never much below freezing" winters as Virginia). But I still have a few questions... > It absorbs moisture from the hive but also dries So it "wicks" moisture from the bottom and inner surface(s) to the upper and outer? And it never reverses the process, and never acts as a humidity "trap"? > so does not get completely saturated but usually has a wet area > over the innercover hole. That area acts as a source of water in > the winter and bees will chew on it to get water. How does one assure that this wet area does not drip down on the bees? If it did, how would one notice? jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:58:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allen Dick said, in a very entertaining indictment of the entire concept of internet mailing lists and newsgroups that should be included in the FAQ of every newsgroup and mailing list on the planet: >> For this and other reasons those who really know the answers often >> can't be bothered to get involved in discussion, and although they >> may make occasional attempts to set things straight, are normally >> content to just ignore untruths, half truths and out right fantasy. >> There are, thankfully, exceptions on this list, but 9 times out of 10, >> experts just lurk and let others speculate and pontificate. Therefore >> be sure to research the archives. Some gems exist. ...and Bill Truesdell responded: > Interesting. So 90% of the posts on this list are opinion? > Where might both your post and my answer fit? :) > I think that the problem with the current discussion on screened bottoms > is that there is limited experience by most in using them and you are > getting experience vs opinion... > The other problem is that the good trials I have seen are all in warmer climates > than we have here in Maine so you have a practice that is in flux. > Also, beekeeping is still quite a bit more art than science. And art > does incorporate opinion, especially when it gets into new realms like > screened bottoms and 4.9. Its none of my business, but that's never stopped me before. Here's a few opinions about opinions, and a few facts about facts: a) OPINION - Writing about beekeeping is like dancing about architecture. It is tough to communicate clearly without writing a Norse-Saga length epic, and even then one is sure to leave something out. I am blessed with excessive leisure time and an ability to type this at 120 - 140 words per minute, which may explain my book length attempts to contribute to this list. (It takes more time to read them than it took to write them.) b) OPINION - It is harder still to discuss practices that apply to mild climates without contradicting many practices that are used by people like Alan and Bill, who keep bees near Calgary Alberta Canada, and Bath Maine respectively, where electric engine block heaters, snow chains, and giant "Michelin Man" parkas are "standard issue gear". (Ok, I am exaggerating a bit about Bath, but I grew up in New Hampshire and Boston, and am required by law to poke fun at Maine). Let's just admit up front that honeybees are not native to most of their current range, and people at the extreme ends of the range have a much tougher and more complex job keeping them alive. c) OPINION - Lucky for us that bees can tolerate a wide range of conditions, but the downside is that one can be misled into thinking that one has "helped" ones bees survive, when the bees survived in SPITE of the conditions imposed upon them. To make matters worse, they can thrive and produce a record crop, apparently for no good reason at all other than God smiling upon them, providing one with false "evidence" of "success". d) FACT - But there ARE some basic facts. One of them is that successful practices can be defined in universal terms. Some might dismiss this as massive over-generalization, but they remain universal. As Alan said: "Studies have shown that steady temperatures around the freezing mark with controlled humidity and good air circulation are the best for successful and economical wintering of bees." So, if winters are mild where you keep bees, you don't need to worry much about the temperature, which is the crux of the "ventilate versus insulate" discussion at hand. If winter is much colder than described above one is forced to lean towards "insulate" over "ventilate". e) FACT - There are some underlying principles that are simply not subject to debate, such as basic physical properties of things like air, heat, moisture and their interaction. So let's get it right folks. For example, "moist air" is not lighter than "dry air". Warm air can be "more moist" than cold air, but it is the warmer air that is lighter. It carries any water merely as a payload. (I am speaking about "at ground level" here, don't get me started about clouds...) f) FACT - Most beekeepers are not scientists. I like to joke that: Science is the art of infallibility, perpetrated upon non-Scientists Much that is "rock solid science" can seem to the layperson be subject to massive revision without notice. Blame the New York Times. The media loves "controversy", and tends to stress the very tiny number of divergent views over the massive body of solidly proven facts and accepted consensus. But it is unfair and silly to dismiss all scientific knowledge as "theory" simply because some beekeeper wants to demand proof in a beekeeping related application. From my reading of this list, I can infer that a beekeeper somewhere is chaining down his hives, due to a lack of belief in the "theories" of gravity and inertia. g) Some beekeepers ARE scientists, or engineers, or chemists and other people who can "do good science". The mere fact that one enjoys bleekeeping and has the resources to fund one's own experiments and research does not, by itself, invalidate one's results. Much like Bill Truesdell, I was delighted to meet Mr. George Imire (the man, the myth, the legend), but it was mostly because he tolerates no fuzzy thinking, and has a presentation style most often found among marine drill sergeants! The fact that he is a fellow physics wonk has NOTHING to do with it. Now I'm not going to ask Mr. Imire to show me his notebooks, but I am sure he has them, and I'm sure they support his various "opinions". The difference between "fact" and "opinion" in cases like this is nothing more than the tedious step of publication in a juried journal. g) OPINION - If I continue, this will stop being funny, and start being boring and/or pedantic. (Or is that "FACT"? You decide.) jim ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:03:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: use of homosote boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim said and asked "So it "wicks" moisture from the bottom and inner surf= ace(s) to the upper and outer? And it never reverses the process, and never acts as a humidity "trap"? How does one assure that this wet area does not drip down on the bees? If it did, how would one notice?" As I recently reported, many of the old-timer commercial beekeepers in th= is area use these boards during the winter and in the spring they come ou= t so wet they can almost have moisture squeezed out of them. Yet, I have= never seen an instance where the moisture was released on top of the bee= s. HOWEVER, it is less expensive to forgo the use of the homosote boards and= instead provide a generous (3/8") upper entrance to just release the moi= sture from the hive. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:03:55 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Interesting. So 90% of the posts on this list are opinion? Is that your opinion? Or, in your opinion is it what I said? In fact, I did not give a figure. > Where might both your post and my answer fit? :) You're asking for my opinion after reading my opinion of opinions? > So are the opinions facts or the facts of the experts, opinions? It's my opinion that the opinions of experts are not facts, but rather opinions, even if they are based on fact. The facts experts provide remain facts, however, assuming they are used in the context in which they were proven. Facts are only facts if they are proven in practice and even then only under the conditions under which they are proven. Extrapolation from such facts may be valid, but always carries a risk of unforeseen error. Presenting the results of extrapolation as fact is an unfortunately ubiquitous abuse -- in my opinion such extarpolated results are usually opinion. > I will wager that several of your over wintering points are disagreed > with by experts on this list. *Especially* the book learned experts. What I am warning about is articles that present theory as if it were fact, rather than merely the unproven product of mental activity. allen Man, do I miss Andy right now. --- Begin Example --- (c) Permission is granted to freely copy this document in any form, or to print for any use. (w)Opinions are not necessarily facts. Use at own risk. --- ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ... When all candles bee out, all cats be gray. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:47:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: use of homosote boards In-Reply-To: <200110151614.f9FGE0Y29168@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > HOWEVER, it is less expensive to forgo the use of the homosote boards and= > instead provide a generous (3/8") upper entrance to just release the moi= > sture from the hive. For what climates would you give that advice, Lloyd? I'm in my first year of beekeeping, approaching my first winter. Temperatures around here this winter will probable be below -20C for weeks at a time, and below -30C at times. I'm having a terrible time figuring out how much of the experience being shared here applies to my climate (especially since few of the posters say much about the climate in which they are having success with the methods they advocate.) We've had our first frost now and I'm still not sure how I'm going to winter my bees. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > It absorbs moisture from the hive but also dries > > So it "wicks" moisture from the bottom and inner surface(s) to the > upper and outer? And it never reverses the process, and never > acts as a humidity "trap"? It is above the inner cover so the only moisture it gets is that coming up through the inner cover hole. So the moisture it takes off is that in the air rising through the inner cover hole. The combination of adequate ventilation and the board insures that the hive is moisture free > How does one assure that this wet area does not drip down on the > bees? If it did, how would one notice? I check it in the late winter and it is usually only moist right over the hole. Also from observations by our expert State Bee Inspector who uses them. He wraps and has more moisture than I encounter. The moisture wicks through the board and it never gets completely saturated. My area is usually softball sized while his is a bit larger. You can see the water stains and how far it progresses during the winter. It does act as a water source for the bees and they do use it. You might be able to get through the winter without it, but based on my experience, I will continue to use it. It is cheap, easy and works here in Maine. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:19:10 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: use of homosote boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I went up to Maine I saw the use of a super with a screen or burlap bottom filled with planer shavings as a means of keeping condensation from raining down on the bees. Homosote seems a simple solution. I just drill holes. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:42:46 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Coleene E. Davidson" Subject: Re: Varroa and temperature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd says: > You can judge for yourself, but I fail to share Zachary's enthusiasm and = > think that freezing drone brood is more practical and just as effective. =20 > The advantage of Zachary's method is there is no need to open the hive and remove the frames with the drone brood. The electrical current is applied via external posts on the outside of the hive. The dead brood, as with brood killed by freezing, is left to the bees to remove. I am not defending the method, just adding my thoughts. Coleene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:31:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > d) FACT - But there ARE some basic facts. One of them is that successful > practices can be defined in universal terms. Some might dismiss this > as massive over-generalization, but they remain universal. As Alan said: > > "Studies have shown that steady temperatures around > the freezing mark with controlled humidity and good air > circulation are the best for successful and economical > wintering of bees." > > So, if winters are mild where you keep bees, you don't need to worry > much about the temperature, which is the crux of the "ventilate versus > insulate" discussion at hand. If winter is much colder than described > above one is forced to lean towards "insulate" over "ventilate". > Jim, Opinion: I think you leapt from fact to opinion. The Hive and the Honey Bee (I apologize for bringing in a book as a reference) states that during winter "the beekeeper's main concern is keeping the bees dry, not warm". For temperatures 20F and below the only additional insulation is a "commercial wintering carton or tar paper wrap with a moisture releaser over the inner cover." There is no difference in ventilation requirements between that and bees in winters between 25-45F except supplemental insulation is not required as are less stores. So "ventilate" seems to be a constant while "insulate" is a variable. The H&THB also states that trials using additional insulation in colder climates caused poorer over wintering. So more insulation is not necessarily better. Opinion (not directed toward Jim): I do not ascribe to be an expert, but do find the opinions/facts in the H&THB to have helped me greatly in understanding beekeeping. And if the use of book knowledge on this list is suspect, then I would appreciate a list of those who post on this list who are experts so I will know what practices are correct and I can throw out my books. (I would put in a smiley face but...) :( Opinion (also not directed toward Jim): I lurked on this list for quite some time before I ever posted anything. I appreciated the give and take of the discussions. I loved the recent 4.9 give and take. There were a lot of opinions generated along with fact and bad information, but that is the norm in any discussion between civil people. There are good beekeeping practices as well as poor practices and I looked forward to getting corrected if I strayed into the latter. I learned and I passed on what I learned to all the Maine State Beekeepers through our newsletter (which was read by our State bee inspector who kept me honest). I really do not care if incorrect information is posted. I know that most will step in and say something, even though they may not be in the expert class, whatever that may be. I value that on this list. But if there are knowledgeable experts who remain aloof from the fray, then you are doing a disservice to this list, to beekeepers on the list and to yourselves. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:27:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Upper ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I find a 3/4" hole drilled in the front of the top hive body provides plenty of ventilation. I drill the hole between the 2nd and 3rd frames just below the rabbet. I close the hole in the inner cover and then place a styrofoam sheet above it so that condensation occurs on the inside of the hive walls and not on the bottom of the inner cover. When thinking of the area required for the upper ventilation, keep in mind the length of time it is functioning. Also, remember that the amount of air which enters the bottom cannot exceed the amount which exits at the top. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:12:45 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Bob, Aaron and Everyone, Bob asked: >Has your bee population dropped accordingly to provide these lower mite counts? If you suspect reinfestation how do >you explain the low mite counts? How do you explain the drop from 150 mites a day to 25?......... > Did your Russian bees produce honey? What about the hives you introduced the SMR into? What about the >Carniolan hives with the average untreated mite counts? How long have your bees been on small cell? The bee population drop was normal and brood rearing also tapered off normally. The hives appear healthy, prosperous. None appear like most of the hives I have seen ready to collapse. I think the reinfestation problem was significant during good flying weather, but as the weather becomes colder the reinfestation problem decreases due to IMPO less exposure by robbing or hive collapse, etc. With the decrease in reinfestation and the decreasing brood rearing, the bees were able to detect and groom off many of the free roaming mites. I also have observed that the bees targeted varroa infested pupa just as other's on small cell comb have described. My Russian bees did produce a good honey crop comparable with the other hives. But these hives were inspected more often. Problems such as a higher rate of queen supercedure with the Russians was detected earlier than would have happen in a normal production hive. Some of the Russians tried to replace their queens about 3 times. My best producer was an open mated SMR(Harbo) queen from Weavers in Texas. SMR Hives with my own SMR reared queens really didn't have time to develop and test for production as most were still a healthy mix of Russian, Spivak, etc. by seasons end. The Carniolan hive was my second best producer. These hives had Russian queens installed a year ago, last spring. No chemical treatments have been applied since then. I have used several hives for non chemical type tests for varroa drop such as grapefruit leaf smoke and powder sugar treatment in combination with sugar rolls, natural mite fall and sampling for mites, etc. to get a feel for what the amount of mite fall means. These hives were installed on small cell foundation early this spring. The Russians, with just a couple of exceptions, drew out the small cell foundation. The Russians, except for the expensive breeder, were then replaced with a variety of queens from various suppliers including those mentioned above. This experience with small cell and SMR has been very interesting. I have seen symptoms that I would have treated instantly with chemicals to save the hive. Aaron wrote: >The way I interpret what Dennis describes is that his SMR bees aren't SMRing, but they are exhibiting the behavior >attributed by the 49ers to 4.9 cell size. I do not know what the mite count would have been without SMR trait. I think mite reinfestation is a great problem, but mite reproduction was occurring. I think some of my non SMR hives were loosing mites and my SMR hives were gaining mites:>). They are all in the same yard. I had used low natural mite drop as one of my primary selection criteria for bee stock, but with the Russians I wondered in more mite drop might indicate fewer mites in the hive. My testing showed that lower mite drop reflected fewer mites in the hive. With small cells it appears that at certain times of the year higher mite drop reflects a process that ultimately could result in fewer mites in the hive. Maybe. The SMR bees definitely had the highest percentage of damaged mites. Strange? Yes! Interesting? Very! Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:16:35 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdale, I use the Hive and Honey Bee as my desk "bible", but it MUST BE the 1992 Extensively Revised Edition. I don't believe there is another book to equal the H & HB, and surely no one can fault the expertise of the 32 different authors. However, no one should take the position that all the knowledge in this book is CAST IN STONE. We keep learning (at least I keep trying) regardless of our age or knowledge, and things CHANGE. Who knows, maybe the use of HYGIENIC bees and/or SMR queens and/or IPM management will do away with the use of chemicals for mites. Maybe requeening will be done with Artificially Inseminated queens rather than field bred queens a few years from now. One might define scientists as people always searching for BETTER things; and hence, I pay strong attention to what our scientists have to say. Good to hear from you, Bill George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:33:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: wax moth control In-Reply-To: <200110100152.f9A1qcY27288@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia wrote, "Oh, I know that already! I haven't posted much to this list, but I went through quite a time with my hive this year. First year package bees. They swarmed in late July (bad) and I captured the swarm (good), but both hives went queenless (bad) so I re-queened (good) but they killed them both (bad) but managed to re-queen one (good) and combined both hives a week later (good). However, they lost a good 5 weeks of laying so the hive was weakened." Julia, one option I have not seen you mention, nor others, is that if you have a weak colony that has attracted Wax Moths you may want to transfer the colony into a Nucleus hive body (5 deep frames) as opposed to keeping it in a standard hive body (10 frames). By restricting the weak colony to a smaller space you give them less hive volume to protect from pests such as the Wax moth. This should also assist in controlling your Chalk Brood. Chalk Brood is fairly common in expanding colonies and usually occurs around the edges of the brood cluster. Once the colony has expanded to fill the Nucleus hive body you can then transfer it to a standard hive body. At that time of the transfer it should have enough of a population to protect the volume. While it may be too late for you to do this process this year, it may come in handy next year. Are you feeding your bees heavy syrup to increase their winter stores? Ken Haller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 17:03:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts The topic of this sub-discussion, viz., "opinions are not facts," may well be an oxymoron. The discussion, regardless of its topic, should surely not lose sight of the ball? The game here, not to be idiosyncratic, is beekeeping. The debate over fact vs. opinion is a separate discussion that belongs in the provinces of philosophy or jurisprudence or art or religion or - take your choice. Perhaps I can refer to a British publication, The Economist, which weekly publishes the following: "First published in September 1843 to take part in "a severe contest between intelligence, which presses forward, and an unworthy, timid ignorance obstructing our progress." " That, truly, is the difference between opinion and fact. Those with the facts in hand can press forward. The difficulty, always, is that it takes intelligence to recognise the facts that count. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:39:14 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The American Indian farming of maze in the desert west was given an early start by using strings at an angle of near 40 degrees. The V shape of the string to the seeds gave the moisture needed to germinate the corn seeds by nature convenion. The water sobulable oil behind the ear was rubbed on fingers and put on the string. The trees in a desert climate will develop the same shape as the string. The mositure will drip run down the string. Possibility of removal of mites that are looking for mositure. The point of this is that the inside of the hive moisture and mites maybe removed by the system to an outside control removal to an open bottom hive. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: info@ilogmaria.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joel F. Magsaysay" Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation In-Reply-To: <200110151433.f9FEX4Y23131@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bee Listers, Just my 2 cents worth. I have been keeping a rather hardy colony of bees (a.m.) in a two frame observation hive. Throuhgout 3 years, I have never applied any miticides or even substitutes (FGMO, etc.). No varroa! There are 5, 1 inch screened holes at the bottom of the observation hive. I harvest a frame of brood every two weeks, just to keep them from swarming. And, they have been ok for three years! During the honey season, we can even get a small harvest of honey frames from her! Joel F. Magsaysay ILOG MARIA HONEYBEE FARMS tropical highlands, Philippines ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:34:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Russian bees (was SMR bees on small cell ) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, Thanks Dennis for sharing your observations with your bees. Although I believe you and I are on the same page I have removed all but the the comments about your Russian bees because they were a experiment which was ending and you used those bees to start your next experiment. Only the most interested will read our posts due to length but I see no other way other than length due to being a complex subject. > I think the reinfestation problem was significant during good flying > weather, You believe that reinfestation was a problem so I would say you are most likely correct. If so then you really can not trust your results and conclusions in certain areas. Certain parts of your experiments will need to be repeated. . > With the decrease in reinfestation and the decreasing brood rearing, the > bees were able to detect and groom off many of the free roaming mites. My *opinion* is that when varroa infestations are high enough most bees will try to remove mites by grooming. Kind of like *guarding the hive* . A few do the job until things reach a certain level. In my opinion they seem to ignore grooming till the problem reaches a certain level. All bees are certainly able to pull/ chew a varroa and toss out the door! Having said that certain bees ARE more hygienic than others and the *removing dead brood in 24 hours test* proves which are and which are not. I am a believer in using bees which are hygienic. Problems such as a > higher rate of queen supercedure with the Russians was detected earlier > than would have happen in a normal production hive. Some of the Russians > tried to replace their queens about 3 times. W e may never know why our bees try to supercede the Russian queens. Must be something the bees see as wrong. Perhaps a lower natural pheremone level, unusual or different laying pattern or simply a different behavior pattern. Only quesses as I simply do not know the answer. > These hives had Russian queens installed a year ago, last spring. No > chemical treatments have been applied since then. I have used several > hives for non chemical type tests for varroa drop such as grapefruit leaf > smoke and powder sugar treatment in combination with sugar rolls, natural > mite fall and sampling for mites, etc. to get a feel for what the amount > of mite fall means. Without a idea of the mite levels when the Russian queens were installed and the mite levels last fall it is very hard to guess but your Russian queens would have been coming on the two year crash mark right now. The test would have been incorrect how ever (in my opinion) because you shook down the hive on to small cell which is a form of varroa control in itself. > > These hives were installed on small cell foundation early this spring. > The Russians, with just a couple of exceptions, drew out the small cell > foundation. The Russians, except for the expensive breeder, were then > replaced with a variety of queens from various suppliers including those > mentioned above. I am looking closely at your work for a reason Dennis. To help you draw the correct conclusions from your observations. When beekeepers like Dennis are open enough to put their work out for all to see then we can help with ideas and help draw conclusions. Their are those lurking better able than me to analize Dennis observations. Comments? Any ideas as to mite load when the other queens were installed? > I had used low natural mite drop as one of my primary selection criteria > for bee stock, but with the Russians I wondered in more mite drop might > indicate fewer mites in the hive. My testing showed that lower mite drop > reflected fewer mites in the hive As you can see selecting for mite drop alone as we had done for years leaves a margin of error. Reinfestation and drifting drones complicate the selection. Why hives on the end of a long row have got a higher varroa load is not a mystery to me. Selecting for SMR is the better method but beyound most beekeepers capabilities. I wish other beekeepers had tested the Russian queens as you did to see the results. I choose to pass on the Russians so I am of little help. Are any on Bee-L with Russian queens moving past the two year crash mark untreated? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:07:59 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Cluster Behavior MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Several days ago, I posted a note concerning cluster behavior. Approximat= ely, I said "contrary to some opinion, studies have shown that individual= bees in a cluster do not constantly rotate from the outside in and then = outside again, but instead tend to stay put (either inside or outside)". = I used this behavior as a point concerning my belief that "cold does not = harm bees". More properly put, "reasonable cold does not harm bees". Several list members asked me for my source of this information. I am rea= sonably certain it is contained in Tom Seeley=E2=80=99s wonderful book, T= he Wisdom of the Hive, but we recently moved an I cannot locate my copy t= o check. So I did the next best thing and asked Marla Spivak, head of the= beekeeping program at the University of Minnesota, (her actual title is = much more elegant) for the source. Her reply follows. In her reply, Marla reminded me of another fascinating aspect of cluster = behavior. That is, under really cold conditions the bees on the outside o= f the cluster pack themselves really tight, head in, and form a shell. Th= is shell holds the heat in the cluster, rather than letting it readily di= sperse. This behavior lets the bees heat only the cluster rather than the= entire hive. However, to generate heat the bees inside the cluster must = have enough room to "shiver", so the inside of the cluster is loose with = enough room for bees to readily walk around. So, while Allen Dick is one of those experts who is not reticent about sh= aring information, his opinions from extensive observations and experienc= e in one of the world's true ice boxes are not necessarily "truths" for m= ost beekeepers. (And Allen would be the first to make that statement.) = Question...does clustering behavior differ based on the degree of cold or= the degrees of cold and humidity? =20 Beekeepers can sometimes observe the shell behavior. In late autumn, a pa= cked-out hive will often have bees=E2=80=99 cluster on the outside, where= they are subject to cold rain. I have seen these clusters in the early m= orning, following a cold night rain. All that is visible is bodies and wi= ngs, perfectly aligned with one another so that rain flows off the surfac= e as it would a turtle shell; quite a sight, and one of the great wonders= of beekeeping. The following is Marla=E2=80=99s message in its entirety. "Hello Lloyd, Sorry for the delay in responding -- I have been out of tow= n. There is a good section on thermo-regulation in Mark Winston's book, "The= Biology of the Honey Bee" Harvard University Press, 1987, pp. 116-119. H= e says that behaviors of individual bees in clusters was studied by Esch = in 1960 (its an article in German). Workers in outer shell hang together = motionlessly, but occasionally move into the center where they warm up in= minutes. The may remain in the cluster for up to 12 hours, and then even= tually rejoin the shell workers. Bees in center of cluster are loosely pa= cked, and are the ones that generate heat. The shell bees have heads in a= nd retain the heat. Hope this helps -- Marla Spivak Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Use of Homosote Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank asks whether I would advise the use of Homosote boards in his sever= e climate. Frank, the best answer you are going to get will be from a successful com= mercial beekeeper who over winters in your area. Next best will be from = a successful sideliner...one with more than 25 hives who has been a beeke= eper for more than 10 years. Try to get an answer from one of those sour= ces. My best reply is that the Homosote boards will do no harm and you can use= them if you wish. HOWEVER, and this is big...do not use them in a manne= r that will impede upper ventilation. If the Homosote boards work to imp= ede air movement from inside the hive to the outside, you are likely to w= inter poorly. Two very simple methods of adding upper ventilation: 1. Take beer bottle caps and put one under each front corner of the inne= r cover, then replace the outer cover. 2. With a batter powered drill, make 1/4" holes in the top front of the = highest hive body. Say, six holes anywhere above the handhold. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:22:58 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis and All, > My best producer was an open mated SMR(Harbo) queen from Weavers in Texas. I am not surprised by this. The Weaver (All American) Italian line has been one of the best honey producing lines I have ever come across. If the All American line was the line used for open mating. SMR Hives with my own SMR reared queens really didn't have time to > develop and test for production as most were still a healthy mix of > Russian, Spivak, etc. by seasons end. Ours did not either. All we could tell is they were gentle, produced excellent brood patterns and seemed to not carry any undesirable traits. > This experience with small cell and SMR has been very interesting. I have > seen symptoms that I would have treated instantly with chemicals to save > the hive. I believe the reinfestation problem is confusing things. Plus the hives they were introduced into had a very high mite count. > I do not know what the mite count would have been without SMR trait. I > think mite reinfestation is a great problem, but mite reproduction was > occurring. There are three different schools of thought here. I could write a chapter in answer to the above. We need to wait and see. All opinion at this point in the process. Not enough time has passed to draw conclusions. I think some of my non SMR hives were loosing mites and my SMR > hives were gaining mites:>). They are all in the same yard. Drifting and reinfestation it seems to me. Might be a problem getting accurate conclusions keeping so many untreated hives in the same yard. > With small cells it appears that at certain times of the year higher mite > drop reflects a process that ultimately could result in fewer mites in > the hive. Maybe. I have no experience with small cell so can not really comment on actual experimentation. Maybe other 49ers will. I may try some SMR on small cell next year for experimentation if varroa is able to reproduce in worker cells of my SMR bees. In my opinion we are still searching for the non chemical answer. > The SMR bees definitely had the highest percentage of damaged mites. As Aaron comented this seems to indicate hygienic behavior and has little to do with SMR. I believe the final varroa tolerant bee will be hygienic with SMR and could possibly be on small cell. Other IPM methods such as OMF and drone removal may also be needed. It is simply to early in the process to make conclusions other than state observations like those Dennis is seeing and try to figure out what is going on. Good luck with the bees over the winter! Thanks for sharing Dennis! Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Use of Homosote Boards MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > My best reply is that the Homosote boards will do no harm and you can use= > them if you wish. HOWEVER, and this is big...do not use them in a manne= > r that will impede upper ventilation. If the Homosote boards work to imp= > ede air movement from inside the hive to the outside, you are likely to w= > inter poorly. If you have a bench saw or even a chisel, put a "trough" or notch from the center of the board (which will be over the hole in the inner cover) to the notch in the inner cover. My notch is about 3/4 inches wide and at least 3/8 deep. That way you have both a ventilation hole and a way for the bees to get to the upper exit. Also remember to move the outer cover forward to insure the hole is open and accessible. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Climate Zones In-Reply-To: <200110150150.f9F1oaY02180@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actuallly, the zones are based on averages, not lowest ever temps. And the #1 thing you should learn looking at it the map is that latitude is not helpful. Montana and Seattle have very different climates. The same is true of Las Vegas and PahDump (high desert) versus San Francisco (sea level rains all the time). Our part of SE TN is zone 7a (fringe 6b). The low temp shown is 0-10, our average lowe winter temp. Our record low of 1983 is -24, with temps below zero for several days. A nice weather break in AK, but a disaster here, causing several elderly deaths. The same latitude includes areas of the country in zone 7, 6, 5,4 and 10 (CA, where it doesn't even freeze in winter). The frost/freeze maps show similar variations. They are useful for figuring the number of average days that no flowers will remain for forage, but don't tell you much else. Again, our average last frost is Mar 15, but I've been caught in snowstorms in early may (and sometimes it is in the 70's for half of december). We are currently right at our first frost dayte, but nothing below upper 30's yet on in the extended forcasts. Last year the aster/goldenrod bloom was all killed by early frosts in Sept. -Karen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:45:20 -0700 Reply-To: lithar@hcis.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: AL Subject: Re: Screened bottom boards and ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Joel F. Magsaysay" wrote: > > I have been keeping a rather hardy colony of bees (a.m.) in a two frame > observation hive. Throuhgout 3 years, I have never applied any miticides or > even substitutes (FGMO, etc.). No varroa! > > There are 5, 1 inch screened holes at the bottom of the observation hive. I > harvest a frame of brood every two weeks, just to keep them from swarming. > And, they have been ok for three years! You seem to be implying the screened bottom of the hive might have something to do with mite control. It would seem to me that removal of brood every two weeks would have a much greater impact on the mite population. (just an opinion) AL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:08:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all, I have been noticing a beetle that is hanging around my bee equipment but does not seem to be causing any problems. I first noticed it a few years ago in a swarm trap. It seems to prefer old abandoned comb, but I have seen it in living colonies. It is a small black beetle that ranges from 1/8" to 3/8" in length. It is black with a distinctive brown band (about 1/3 the length) across the mid section. I am pretty sure it is not the African Hive Beetle because all photos of those that I have seen do not have the brown band. This guy may have been around longer, and maybe I only noticed it after I heard of the AHB. Again, it does not seem to cause any problems, but I would like to know more about it. I plan to send a sample for identification, but I was wondering if anyone else ever noticed it. On a side note, I know the season is over when the leaves start to change and the colonies smell of the aster honey they are busy ripening. I can usually detect it 25' away. Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:11:03 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jerry J Bromenshenk Subject: facts versus opinion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi: Problem with facts is that they may not always fit your opinion. As a research scientist, I know well how hard it is for me to reject hypotheses, ideas, expectations or conclusions when the actual results shoot down my anticipated result. My favorite quote is from Alain Rene Lesage's 18th century novel, GIl Blas de Sanitllane: Facts are stubborn things. Cheers Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:52:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/16/01 10:50:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BOGANSRJ@APCI.COM writes: > It is a small black beetle that ranges from 1/8" to > 3/8" in length. It is black with a distinctive brown band (about 1/3 the > length) across the mid section Look up "Rove Beetle" your description sounds just like one. I believe it is a common pantry pest with worldwide distribution (anywhere man is). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 10:12:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Ron and All, I have through the years seen various beetles hanging around and in hives. The distint band would in my opinion rule out the SHB. However I would send a beetle for testing to be sure. The lone small hive beetle found in Missouri was the only one found to my knowledge. Would have been interesting know how the beetle got to Missouri. I have got a migratory beekeeper friend in your area which winters in Florida. Hmmm. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Opinions are not facts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell offered: > James Fischer wrote: >> So, if winters are mild where you keep bees, you don't need to worry >> much about the temperature, which is the crux of the "ventilate versus >> insulate" discussion at hand. If winter is much colder than described >> above one is forced to lean towards "insulate" over "ventilate". >> > Opinion: I think you leapt from fact to opinion. The Hive and the Honey > Bee.... > ...So "ventilate" seems to be a constant while "insulate" is a variable. > The H&THB also states that trials using additional insulation in colder > climates caused poorer over wintering. So more insulation is not > necessarily better. Just as you did directly above, I attempted to apply the "facts" to the situation at hand, which must be admitted to be "opinion", or at least a presumption. But, the original question had to do specifically with inner covers on hives with screened bottom boards, rather than "insulating the whole hive", as addressed by your H&THB quote. I was trying to create some sort of rational segue between (my) "mild climate" approach where I suggested that the inner cover not only have at least one upper entrance notched into it, but the inner cover ALSO have additional ventilation in the form of "screened windows" to improve airflow above that possible with the "standard" inner cover. ...and the "far north" approach, where multiple people advocated insulated inner covers, homosite boards, et al. To me, this seems a clear engineering trade-off between stressing ventilation above all else, and adding things that clearly would prevent the "extra" ventilation I suggested. Again, let me stress that we were focused on inner covers alone. You see, Allen Dick is "right", for his climate. He has to be "right", or he would not have the overwinter survival rates he has. Allen does all this: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/2000/Diary120100.htm#Winter%20Wraps%20 George Imirie is also "right", for his climate, for exactly the same reason. (I'm gonna pick George as the straw man for "southern", simply because I can include a link to his "Pink Pages" to document his strategies): http://www.beekeeper.org/george_imirie/ But, there is much that is "contradictory" in the two approaches. If one accepts both approaches as "optimal for the conditions", one is left with the obvious conclusion that an apiary located somewhere between the two would require overwintering strategies that are somewhere between the two. As one travels northward between the two points (roughly 39 degrees and 51 degrees North), one reaches your location in Maine - a "midpoint" between the two at about 44 degrees North. Now you yourself said only days ago: "Homosoate is the material many of us use in Maine (it is the stuff in some ceiling tiles). It is cut to the dimensions of an inner cover and notched so it provides both ventilation and an upper bee exit." So, you provide only the upper entrance itself for ventilation and block the standard hole in the inner cover with the homosoate board, providing less ventilation than the "southern" case, yet you do not wrap and insulate your hives as Allen does. It looks to me like you ARE "leaning towards 'insulate' over 'ventilate' on the issue on inner covers. Yes, I think it is clear that some ventilation is a constant requirement, and perhaps an upper entrance provides the "minimum" ventilation required. But south of you, we "southerners" ventilate MORE. North of you, Allen insulates MORE. Shucks, I think it is pretty clear that we have a progression here. I think it is also clear that it is a trade-off between "extra ventilation" and "extra insulation", given that all hives need some ventilation, and all hives provide some insulation as a starting point. jim farmageddon (37 degrees North of the equator, and still T-shirt weather on 10/16/01 !!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:52:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Beetle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > a small black beetle that ranges from 1/8" to 3/8" > in length. It is black with a distinctive brown band > (about 1/3 the length) across the mid section. Hi Ron, I noticed this beetle too, first saw it two or three years ago and panicked initially that perhaps it was the dreaded SHB, but the band around the middle wasn't correct. It even has the club-like antennae as does SHB. I showed the beetle around to a few people, one of whom identified it as a "Carrion Beetle". Now, I do not know my beetles, but the name (Carrion Beetle) seemed appropriate to the conditions where I most often observed it. I usually find the beetle amongst grungy debris on bottom boards or in frames from a dead out hive. I have never seen the beetle in a healthy hive, rather, in equipment that has come off a hive and perhaps stored in conditions to which I would prefer deny. So, in your search for identification look towards "Carrion Beetle" (which was a beetle theretofore unheard of to me). If you find it, I too would like to know for sure what it is. Cheers, Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 12:28:20 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Homosote Caps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Perhaps I should jump into the Homosote discussion. I have never used the homosote covers, but listened VERY attentively to Tony Jadzak (State Bee Inspector in Maine) at EAS at MMA as he described how he uses them for wintering his hives. To prep his hives for winter, Tony turns his inner covers shallow side towards the bees, deep side up. On top of the inner cover he places a homosote board cut to the same dimensions as the inner cover. He cuts a troth into the homosote board from the center (which is above the inner cover hole) to the front of the board (Bill Truesdale wrote about this this morning). Tony then wraps his hive in tar-paper that neatly folds over the top edges of the homosote board, with a hole cut at the troth for an upper entrance. Once wrapped, the telescoping cover goes on top, shoved forward so as not to cover the upper entrance. Thus prepared, there is a space between the top of the inner cover and the bottom of the homosote board. Ths space provides two things, 1) a passage for bees to get to the upper entrance and 2) an area where he can put dry sugar (if needed) for emergency winter feeding. The homosote board itself provides the moisture collection as has been described in the past few days' discussions, which serves a dual purpose of keeping the bees dry while providing a water source for the bees if/when needed. Tony stated that he expects to see a wet spot in the homosote board when he checks in the winter (say February), and in fact, he is only concerned about the hive if he does NOT see the wet spot. A big wet spot is a signal that all is well within the hive. Regarding the tar-paper wrap, Tony was clear to make the point that the tar-paper's purpose is NOT to cut drafts. Rather, its main purpose is as a heat sink to absord late winter sun rays and encourage the bees to take cleansing flights on days when the window of opportunity may not be long and possibly missed if the hive did not have the benefit of the wrap. As stated, I've never used the homosote board. I've always used an empty super stuffed with straw to wick away moisture. I've never been real thrilled with the nasty wet straw in the spring, and figure the homosote board may be a better tool and definitely a lot easier to schlepp into the apiary than bales of straw. Aaron Morris - not homosote-phobic! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:01:32 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Pehling Subject: Re: Beetle In-Reply-To: <200110161552.f9GFq1Y20913@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Aaron Morris wrote: > > a small black beetle that ranges from 1/8" to 3/8" > > in length. It is black with a distinctive brown band > > (about 1/3 the length) across the mid section. > > Hi Ron, > > I noticed this beetle too, first saw it two or three years ago and panicked > initially that perhaps it was the dreaded SHB, but the band around the > middle wasn't correct. It even has the club-like antennae as does SHB. I > showed the beetle around to a few people, one of whom identified it as a > "Carrion Beetle". Now, I do not know my beetles, but the name (Carrion ............................... I suspect the beetle is actually a "larder beetle" (_Dermestes lardarius_). These beetles are attracted mostly to dried animal protein. See the image at http://www.ento.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/larder_beetle.htm Carrion Beetles (_Nicrophorus spp._) are generally larger than 3/8 in. and are attracted to "moist dead things". If the old comb got wet and sloppy, it could attract these insects. See the photo gallery at http://www.eeb.uconn.edu:591/nicroweb/nicrositemap.htm for images of carrion beetles. Cheers, Dave Pehling ============================================ | W.S.U. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION-SNOHOMISH CO. | | 600 128TH ST. S.E. | | EVERETT, WA. 98208 U.S.A. | | PHONE - (425)338-2400 | | FAX - (425)338-3994 | | EMAIL pehling@wsu.edu | ============================================ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Homosote Caps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > I've never been real > thrilled with the nasty wet straw in the spring, and figure the homosote > board may be a better tool and definitely a lot easier to schlepp into the > apiary than bales of straw. It is easy to use and you can make a lot of them since homosote comes in 8x4 sheets and are easily cut to fit. I have a bench saw to cut the groves. Excellent description of how Tony uses them. I do not wrap, as Tony does, but I paint my hives dark so get the same sort of warming. My bees tend to button up the hive fairly well. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:06:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, For those new people on Bee-L wanting to learn about SMR bees please check out the Baton Rouge Bee lab website. http://msa.ars.usda.gov/la/btn/hbb/jwh/SMRD/SMRD.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:54:17 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Drone assemblies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 16/10/01 05:07:29 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << How high [above ground] are these assemblies? I'm wondering how to spot one. I thought they'd be too high to see from the ground. >> Low enough to be audible but too high to be visible - say tree top height. However, at Gormanston this year on an open hurley pitch on a cool day the drones were most attracted to the lure on Carl Showler's fishing rod when he lowered it to about shoulder height. So it all depends. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Debra Sharpe Subject: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a problem I hope someone has encountered before. My hive is new this year I have 2 full hive bodies (the top one is full of honey which I am leaving for them this winter). I cannot move the top super as one unit since it is about 70 lbs so I use another hive body and transfer half the capped honey fames into it and then remove the super which is now about 40 lbs to check on the brood frames below. By the time I do all this I takes me about 30min and the bees are really mad because I am moving slowly and trying not to jar them. Last week I wanted to install a screened bottom board but I gave up because I could not lift the brood box to put it underneath and by that time they had been open for 40 min. I have considered switching to shallow supers but I would have to double up to get the same amount of honey and brood space. Are there any disadvantages to this? I have seen tripods advertised- has anyone use them and what were they like. Thanks for any info the group may have. PS. I am a female and small in stature although not weak by any (I have set state records in powerlifting) but it occurs to me that the design of these boxes and their unwieldy nature is a back injury waiting to happen (as I'm sure all of you know) because it is very unlikely any beekeeper would drop a hive body under any circumstances even if a back strain occurs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stan Sandler Subject: Re: Beetle In-Reply-To: <200110161546.f9GFkkY20530@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Look up "Rove Beetle" your description sounds just like one. I believe it is >a common pantry pest with worldwide distribution (anywhere man is). I believe that you are correct. Another name for this "pantry pest", is the one I know it by, the larter beetle. When larter beetles are present in stored equipment you will often see the larval form crawling in and on the comb. It is twice as long as the adult, quite thin, but covered with long hairs. Aside from some gnawing on the wood, (which is seen as small holes), larter beetles are not only innocuous, they may be beneficial. They do not seem to damage the comb, but they eat the cocoons, old pollen and debris. I was told by Endel Karmo that larter beetles will loosen and consume AFB scales. Regards, Stan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 21:20:40 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_62.157dddd1.28fe36e8_boundary" --part1_62.157dddd1.28fe36e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Debra, You have been quiet for several months. See the ATTACHMENT to this note about my giving up all DEEPS and switching to all medium (6 5/8") supers 20 years ago. I wish I had started with ALL MEDIUM SUPERS in 1933 instead of deeps. About half of my "students" over the last 15 years have selected all mediums rather than deeps, and most of the "students" are 30-50 year old men. It is easy to switch in the spring, but you can't do anything now. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper --part1_62.157dddd1.28fe36e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; name="Best Size hive + Plasticell" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Best Size hive + Plasticell" George's PINK PAGES Which is the BEST Size Hive? For most of the past century, the most popular size box was 9 5/8= " deep and commonly referred to as a "deep". Filled with 10 frames of wax, it weighs a= bout 20 pounds, but about 90 pounds when filled with honey. This was pretty heavy f= or many people, so near the beginning of the 20 century, the Dadant company in Illin= ois started=20 making the 6 5/8" medium size box, commonly referred to as an "Illinois", or= a=20 "Westerlie" on the West Coast. Filled with 10 frames of wax, it weighs abou= t 14 pounds, and about 55 pounds when filled with honey. Lastly, there was the 5= 11/16" box, commonly called a "shallow". Filled with 10 frames of wax, it weighs a= bout 12 pounds, and about 45 pounds when filled with honey. Maybe WEIGHT is very important to you, particularly when it is up=20= high and filled with lots of live bees. Of MUCH GREATER importance is the fact that the fra= mes in each box are NOT interchangeable with the frames in either of the other sizes. H= ence, you=20 can't move a deep frame from the brood chamber into a Illinois honey super o= r a Shallow honey super; or vice-versa. Is it a scientific fact that a deep box is the size selected by bee= s and the queen for use as a brood area; or equally that foraging bees selectively prefer a=20= shallow or=20 Illinois size box? Of course NOT! Back in the days of skeps (before Langst= roth built the first removable frame hive), the central wax combs of the skep contained= brood while those combs containing honey were the smaller outer combs. Hence, the= deep box was thought to be the volume size (1.4 cubic feet) of most brood areas,=20= and the average size wax honey comb were smaller pieces about 4" x 4". The origina= l honey super (before extractors were built) was just 4 3/4" deep and held 28 4"x4"=20= basswood=20 sections for comb honey. Upon the creation of the extractor, the 5 11/16" s= hallow box holding ten 5 3/8' frames was created. These two sizes, the 9 5/8" deep= and=20 5 11/16" shallow were the accepted standards for years, based on the single=20= criteria of "that is what Daddy used". Almost 20 years ago (when heavy weight was NOT important to me), I=20= discontinued=20 using any deep bodies or shallow bodies, and started using just ONE SIZE box= , the 6 5/8" Illinois, for brood area and honey supers! I did this for ONE=20= SINGULAR REASON: To have=20 just one size frame that was interchangeable in any place, brood area or hon= ey area. Not=20 having to be concerned about having a frame to fit, saved me many a mad day.= The comb=20 space of 30 frames in 3 Illinois bodies is almost exactly the same amount of= comb space=20 of 20 frames in 2 deep bodies. Hence I use 3 Illinois boxes as brood chambe= rs in place of=20 2 deep boxes. In the Illinois size frame of 6 1/4", I make cut comb honey,=20= extracted honey,=20 and even 4" x 4" basswood section honey ( to recall my start in 1933). I wi= sh I had been=20 smart enough when I began beekeeping in 1933 to use "only Illinois boxes and= just one size frame" instead of "battling" with different frame sizes for a= lmost 50 years. Now, in=20 addition to the advantage of having a single size frame, with my stroke disa= blement, I definitely appreciate the smaller weight of the Illinois as compa= red to the deep. Incidentally, the shallow is slowly being discontinued by many equip= ment makers because of diminishing sales, and the fact that more and more beekeepers are= adopting my program of "ALL-ILLINOIS". Maybe it would be wise for you to consider th= is program. =20 Ask Ernie Miner about his position. He has told me that if he were not in t= he bee equipment business, he would do exactly what I have done: Have just one size frame, a= universal frame, by using "ALL-ILLINOIS". Ask him. ********************************************************************** Wax or Plastic Foundation? =20 At the recent American Beekeeping Federation meeting in Fort Worth=20= whose audience was largely commercial beekeepers, one of the principal speakers asked for a= show of hands of those who had switched to plastic foundation versus those who still= continue to use wax foundation. I think that everyone in the room (about 200) was su= rprised when the vote revealed that about 50% are now using plastic foundation. The resu= lts initiated a discussion about using plastic frames of plastic comb; but very few were s= atisfied with these frames because of expense and lack of strength I switched my entire brood foundation and extracted honey foundation= to Dadant's Plasticell Foundation almost 20 years ago, and I strongly wish I could have=20= done it 68=20 years ago! No wiring of the frame; just snap it in place; it will not sag o= r bend; you almost can NOT break it even with force; and if you desire to destroy some c= omb on=20 it, for example drone comb, just scrape it off with a hive tool and give it=20= back to the bees who will rebuild it with beautiful worker comb. Plasticell is a Dadant= product and not available from other equipment makers. Ask Ernie about Plasticell -= he thinks it is wonderful too. --part1_62.157dddd1.28fe36e8_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:36:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies Comments: cc: sharpdc@AUBURN.EDU In-Reply-To: <200110162319.f9GNJUY09776@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yes they are unwealdly and too heavy! I can just lift and move a full hive body, if I move carefully! I have dropped them a couple times, and the results, while not nice, have been far from disastrous! If It's taking 30 minutes to move 4-5 frames into a spare box, you are moving a bit too slowly. I'ts a trade off, it is, between moving slowly and not jarring the bees, and getting things done and the hive closed up again. I think you can safely "Shake em up" a bit more, in the interest of getting it done! Just be sure you are using appropriate amounts of smoke. Moving smoothly and quickly is an art that takes some practise to learn, but will come with time and confidence. Do work the bees in the middle of the day(if possible), when as many bees as possible are out in the field. It is a LOT less stressfull with all those extra bodies away. I have found that the bees don't mind a bit of Jarring around- I just try to keep the banging to the minimun needed to get the job done. I also invested in a pair of Frame grips. These are handle like pliers that allow yoou to grab a frame by the top bar and wrench it free of the propolis binding it to it's neighbors. This is so much easer and quicker than pounding and prying with a hive tool, and if done carefully, doesn't stir up or squish many bees at all. Once the first frame or two is pried free with the aid of a hive tool, the other frames can be pulled free and moved in less than 5 minutes. I prefer the frame grip sold by the Walter Kelley company It is cast aluminum, with wide (1 inch) gripping pads, and provides a more secure grip than those with narrow gripping points. I have used medium depth supers as bodies. The bees like them fine, and they are sure easier to lift. Three of them are usually substituted for two hive bodies. The big drawback (Besides the extra cost, and time building more frames and boxes.) is when you go to find the queen, you have 1/3 more frames to look at in order to find her! It takes a lot longer to inspect a three box brood nest than a two box one. I can usually find the queen within 10-15 minutes in a two box setup- it takes considerably longer in mediums. The queen seems quite adept at hiding among the extra frames, and more willing to run down below when you start inspecting the upper boxes. If the weight is you problem, definately give the mediums a try- but be prepared to to spend more time when you inspect. Are you dong this for the fun of it? If so, consider a top bar hive, or a long hive. No supers have to be lifted at all- you only move one frame at a time. This set up is ideal for people with back problems, or those restricted to a wheelchair. I don't get nearly as much honey from my TBH, but it is a lot easier to inspect than my langstroths. Ellen, in Michigan Debra Sharpe wrote: ... but it occurs to me that the design of these boxes and their unwieldy nature is a back injury waiting to happen (as I'm sure all of you know) because it is very unlikely any beekeeper would drop a hive body under any circumstances even if a back strain occurs. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:38:33 -0400 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: Homosote Caps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris wrote: > As stated, I've never used the homosote board. I've always used an empty > super stuffed with straw to wick away moisture. I've never been real > thrilled with the nasty wet straw in the spring, and figure the homosote > board may be a better tool and definitely a lot easier to schlepp into the > apiary than bales of straw. > > I wouldn't want anything on top of a colony that will absorb moisture. I > believe the moisture should be vented away, not collected above a colony. I > turn the deep side of the inner cover toward the bees. I close the escape > hole, and place a sheet of foam insulation (16x20) on the inner cover. Tht > front rim of the inner cover has a notch (2x3/8) for an upper entrance. The > moisture exits the hive, and is not retained. In face, on really cold days, > the moisture forms a horizontal icecycle out the upper entrance. I do wrap > with tar paper. but don't fold it over the foam, but rather it is doubled back > on itself. This allows moisture to escape up the sides and under the outer > cover. I have no moisture problems, even in the harsh winters of northern > Vermont. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:33:25 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As I read this I thought, this person should get a "Back-Saver", which was later alluded to (tripods). I bought an early design of the Back-Saver, and noted it is advertised as "improved". I have not seen the new, improved model. The Back-Saver is at first an awkward device to master. It is ideal for lifting the top box off, but I never really got the hang of setting the box down once it's been lifted off the stack. It is easier to set it down on another stack, or saw horses, or something close to the height of the original stack than it is to place the box onto the ground. I use mine solely to lift the top box to put strips into the lower box. Since inserting and removing strips is a quick operation I never put the top box down. I just lift it, hold it up with one hand at the apex of the back saver, insert strips with the other hand, and put the top box back in place. For this procedure, the Back-Saver is ideal. For the rest of the year the my Back-Saver collects dust. Aaron Morris - thinking there are two kinds of beekeepers: Ones with bad backs and ones who are going to get bad backs! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:01:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra Sharpe wrote: > I cannot move the top super as one unit > since it is about 70 lbs so I use another hive body and transfer half > the capped honey fames into it and then remove the super which is now about > 40 lbs to check on the brood frames below. Debra, I will try to beat George Imire in suggesting you shift to mediums and forget the tripod. I strained my back moving deeps in the fall and that convinced me to shift, which I am in the process of doing. There are other tricks in manipulating deep supers, such as tilting them and sliding things like a screened bottom underneath. But that requires at least three arms and Murphy's Law immediately commes into effect so you are likely to end up with horizontal hives and very unhappy bees. Another is to have a cart or platform by the hive so there is less lifting and more moving, which is what I do. But that still ends up with a load on your back, even though there is little bending and mostly swinging. There are commercial lifters as well as do-it-yourself tripods that you can fashion, but with only a couple of hives, it is easier to just shift to mediums. You can do as many do and have all mediums for both brood and honey supers. Or you can have the mediums for brood and shallow supers for honey, to reduce the lifting load. Supers get heavy too, and you will be moving them when they are full more than the brood boxes, which are normally moved in spring and are much lighter than in the fall. Hope this helps. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:16:57 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies In-Reply-To: <200110162319.f9GNJUY09779@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3 med supers are about the same brood/food area as the two deeps (ref. George Imrie's Pink Pages). And only 40 lbs or so full. I usually remove a frame or two (prop on side of hive, after ensuring the queen is not on them), then lift box over to the upturned top cover. Repeat on next box, viewing whatever you need to. If you can handle 40 lbs, then you can simply seperate, smoke a bit and move the entire box at once. Then, you can install that screen board in about 10 min (ok guys, no laughing at the weight challenges for average females here), rather than 40. Mine are in a deep and a med, but I may switch over to all Med, as I also have trouble with that full box at the bottom if I need to do something underneath (which isn't very often, I will admit). Two are still on lath-boards over closed bottoms, as I gave out the day I was changing them over. Maybe next year! Also, there is a frame holder you can use on that spare box to hold 3-4 frames so that you can move the original box (use in addition to the spare box, still keep the frames in the correct places). I sometimes have lower back pain, and straining against the heavy weights just makes it worse, some days. But, you can bet that if you strain your back while holding a hive, you may try to put it down gently and in the correct place, but you are more than likely to just drop it as you hit the ground yourself (and be unable to move out of the way). Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 06:25:39 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Bad Backs In-Reply-To: <200110171242.f9HCgSY01298@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have found one cure for my bad back- Yoga! Sounds funny, I know, but I found a local studio that offers yoga classes called "Better Back" classes- they focus on exercises that strengthen the back, and the muscles that support the back. It really works! No problems at all this summer- for the first time ever! Ellen in Michigan Aaron Morris wrote: Aaron Morris - thinking there are two kinds of beekeepers: Ones with bad backs and ones who are going to get bad backs! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:34:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moving anything requires a bit of a warmup and even moreso as we get older. Expecting to climb out of the pickup or off the sofa and be lifting shallows or deeps is inviting trouble. Take a minute to loosen up your back before any lifting. One thing I find that helps me is to screw decent handles onto the sides of the boxes and to bring a few empty boxes to set things on so that I am working at an efficient height. All of my beginners have begun on medium boxes. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:03:33 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Coverting deeps to mediums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am in the process of shifting to mediums and wonder if anyone who did so cut down the deep frames to mediums? I doubt if it is a good idea, but curious if anyone has tried it and what were the results. I am going to cut the boxes and see no problems there. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:14:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Bogansky,Ronald J." Subject: Beetle Thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Thank you to all who answered my question on the unidentified beetle hanging around my equipment. It appears that the winner is the Larder Beetle. Special thanks to Dave Pheling for the link: http://www.ento.psu.edu/extension/factsheets/larder_beetle.htm I first noticed this beetle at one out yard, then brought it home with some dead-outs. (I, like Aaron mentioned, have some items in storage I am not proud of.) In reading about it, I sure hope it doesn't find its way into the house. My wife still reminds me about the time I left an old super in the basement and later went on a business trip. I returned home to find a jar of wax moths that was collected throughout the house, and left on my pillow. Let's just say I was less popular than the moths. Thanks again, Ron Bogansky Kutztown, (eastern) PA, USA + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:34:21 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Re: Drone assemblies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to: > How high [above ground] are these assemblies? I'm wondering how to spot > one. I thought they'd be too high to see from the ground. Chris Slade replied: >Low enough to be audible but too high to be visible - say tree top height. >However, at Gormanston this year on an open hurley pitch on a cool day the >drones were most attracted to the lure on Carl Showler's fishing rod when he >lowered it to about shoulder height. So it all depends. In Santa Barbara, before Varroa wiped out most of the feral colonies, we had certain drone aggregation sites of great dependability. One was just above a hilltop, the others were near canyon bottoms at the base of mountain ranges. Each day between 2 and 4 p.m. in March and April I could take my entomology class to the appropriate spot, where they could hear the hum of drones above. Then I would take out my slingshot and lob stones nearly straight up into the air so that the students could watch the drones pursue the falling stone. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "However broad-minded one may be, he is always to some extent * the slave of his education and of his past." * * Emile Duclaux (1896; 1920 translation) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 22:51:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mea McNeil Subject: Re: Opinions/ facts In-Reply-To: <200110141400.f9EE07Y12016@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Wintering is a complex topic that is very interrelated with >other management practices and requirements are strongly dependant on >locale. I am appreciative of those who post with geographical location; it is crucial to gleaning practices we can use in a similar climate. Mea McNeil San Anselmo (Northern) California MEA McNeil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 18:29:24 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What you need is a bee-keeper's mate! We almost almost 'bee' together, and one of the advantages is that we can use deep supers instead of shallow, and thus cut down on extracting time because there are less frames. We also find that when unexpected problems occur, we end up with better solutions than we would alone, because we talk them through first. J. J. Herts, UK EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ > I have a problem I hope someone has encountered before. My hive is new this > year I have 2 full hive bodies (the top one is full of honey which I am > leaving for them this winter). I cannot move the top super as one unit > since it is about 70 lbs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:07:42 +0200 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Coverting deeps to mediums In-Reply-To: <200110171418.f9HEIcY05918@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdell wrote: >>I am in the process of shifting to mediums... Bill, i am in the process of converting my beekeeping from a totally different (one of the five standards in Sweden...) format to mediums. I was curious to hear what time of the year and how you switch the boxes. The climate here in Stockholm, Sweden is probably similar to that in Maine. Sincerely Mats Andersson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 19:23:50 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Moving full size hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debra Sharpe has trouble in lifting a full size box (presumably Langstroth) full of honey. I have occasionlly had the same problem when the bees have filled a national box with honey - it seems to be glued down at first. It must be one of the causes of beekeeper's back. I suggest Debra could solve her problem by lateral thinking. Instead of having 20 frames in 2 layers of 10, have them all side by side in a single layer. Of course, it will mean breaking with convention and also doing a little carpentry, but, hey, why follow the herd. You have nothing to lose but your truss. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: grumpy7 Subject: Re: Coverting deeps to mediums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Truesdale inquired about cutting down deep frames to mediums. I did that when I converted from deeps to mediums a few years ago, and it's easy enough with a table saw or a bandsaw. With Pierco frames as cheap and as satisfactory as they are now, though, I don't think I would cut down any more. Walter Weller Wakefield, Louisiana ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:34:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: darrells Subject: Re: location of writer In-Reply-To: <200110151658.f9FGwoY01472@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit "Frank I. Reiter" wrote: > For what climates would you give that advice, Lloyd? regarding advice on ventilation, screened bottom boards, homosote boards etc., no method of describing your location will give all details of your climate. I prefer latitude and longitude, complete with nearest town and country, then I can go to my atlas and get the rest of the story. This is a US list and most writers are from the US. I live in Canada 100 km from the border, but I dont know which state is referred to by 2 letters( ie Mo, Mn, Me, Ma) and assume others dont either. I could look these up in the atlas and do so when someone writes something that catches my interest, but knowing where the writer is makes all posts more meaningful. Bob Darrell Caledon Ontario (On) Canada 44N 80W ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:45:56 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110170400.f9H40fY21056@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I ran across this ad on the Internet >Screened Bottom Board: $17.00 >Studies have shown that using a screened bottom board can >dramatically reduce mite problems in your hive. I have been unable to find any such studies, and researchers I have talked with do not know of any. What I did find was this: >Tested an IPM program of Screened bottoms, formic acid, both, and no >treatment. Results were as follow for Russian stock - 1% to 8% using >all four. Using both formic acid and screen did have lowest mite >population, no treatment had highest mites but still low. > >Domestic stock results were, 9% for both, 21% with formic acid, 69% >with screen, and 70% with no treatment. It was also found that the >Russians are more hygienic then domestic stock. -- ISBA JOURNAL. >www.hoosierbuzz.com Compare: 69% infestation rate with screens, 70% without. The screens seem to double the effectiveness of formic acid, but you could get the same rate by doubling the dose of formic. Read also: >IPM Management In Practice: A Case Study >From MAAREC, the Mid-Atlantic Apiculture Research and Extension Consortium Screens were not even mentioned as part of an IPM program. -- peterborst@persianarts.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 17:15:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Coverting deeps to mediums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: > Bill, i am in the process of converting my beekeeping from a totally > different (one of the five standards in Sweden...) format to mediums. I was > curious to hear what time of the year and how you switch the boxes. The > climate here in Stockholm, Sweden is probably similar to that in Maine. I will spend this fall/winter building the boxes and making up the frames. I will not shift until next spring. My intention is to pull the bottom deep, which should be empty or nearly so in the early spring (first relatively warm day in early April. The ice does not leave our creek until then. Our "creek" is about 300 feet across and solid with foot or more thick ice even up to the end of March.). It may require moving frames between the two deeps to empty one deep. I will put a medium with foundation over the deep which has the bees. When it gets drawn and things are happening in it I will add another medium with foundation for them to draw. When it gets drawn and I have a honey barrier at the top of the upper medium (to keep the queen down so she does not continue moving up) then the supers go on for honey. I will leave the hive as is to overwinter with two mediums on top and deep on the bottom. And then the next year in the spring, pull the lower empty deep and add a medium with foundation on top. I will then overwinter with three mediums. I welcome comments from those who have done this before. This is just my plan and not etched in stone. You are right about the climate here being similar to yours in Stockholm, Sweden. I was surprised when I was in a discussion with a beekeeper from your area to learn that we might be even a bit colder than your winters. All that nice Gulf Stream current that bypasses us and warms you up. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:49:31 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter > Compare: 69% infestation rate with screens, 70% without. I am not "doing an advert" for "screened bottoms" (Open Mesh Floors), but I would say that if you use them, any varroa that falls through is a dead varroa and is out of the equation. That being said no one would claim that is a method of varroa control "in itself". The IPM figures that you quoted, seem to have been selected for their lowness of effect, which is hardly good science. I have seen various figures bandied about, but if you count the mites that fall you will find that about 65% of them are alive and the rest dead I would much sooner lose the live ones for good, regardless of percentage. I have been using this type of floor for nearly twenty years and I would be unlikely ever to use a solid one in future. Best regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:46:13 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110181047.f9IAlMY27800@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have been using this type of floor for nearly twenty years and > I would be unlikely ever to use a solid one in future. I am looking seriously at using screened bottom boards starting next year. I have read here in the past that 6 mesh is the perfect size, but that it is hard to find. I understand that 1/4" and 1/8" mesh are easier to find, but 1/4" will not keep out the wasps. Two questions: 1) Will varroa reliably fall through a 1/8" mesh? 2) Does use open mesh floors promote raiding of hives by small ants? Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:02:06 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Screened bottoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wrote: >Compare: 69% infestation rate with screens, 70% without. The screens seem to double the effectiveness of formic acid, but you could get the same rate by doubling the dose of formic. Unfortunately, this is an example of faulty math. If screens with formic have half as many mites, that doesn't mean double effectiveness, my mistake. Actually, if the controls are 70% infected and the formic hives have a 21% rate, then 70% of the total mites have been killed (49 divided by 70). If you add the screens and have a 9% rate, then you have killed 87% of the total mites (61 divided by 70). This means that only 17% of the total kill with formic and screens combined is accountable to the screens. Dave wrote: > The IPM figures that you quoted, seem to have been selected for their lowness of effect, which is hardly good science. I have seen various figures bandied about, but if you count the mites that fall you will find that about 65% of them are alive and the rest dead I would much sooner lose the live ones for good, regardless of percentage. I did not "select" these figures for lowness, but rather, I couldn't find any others. If you have any published figures, I would be interested in seeing them. Finding live mites on the bottom does not necessarily translate to reduced mite load in the colony, especially if the mites are past the reproductive age. By the way, in order for a technique to be included in a real IPM program, it has to have some repeatable effect -- and it has to be cost-effective. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 16:30:09 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Stefan Stangaciu Subject: New Class on the Apitherapy Internet Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, I would like to invite all of you interested in the healing properties of our bee products to join the next class on the Apitherapy Internet Course (AIC). All details related to this Course can be seen, on-line, in www.apitherapy.com Please send us any inquiries you may have on this Course and/or on Apitherapy privately at: drstangaciu@apitherapy.com and/or apither@gmb.ro Yours all, Dr. Stefan Stangaciu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Climate information MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mae said "I am appreciative of those who post with geographical location;= it is crucial to gleaning practices we can use in a similar climate." True, knowing climate is crucial to evaluating practices. However, knowi= ng geographic location sometimes is not an indication of climate. For ex= ample, few in the US would think that Seattle or Vancouver climate would = be similar to that of Maine, yet latitude alone would indicate that. In = a similar vein, judged solely by latitude most of Sweden would be uninhab= itable as is most of Canada north of Hudson's Bay. Yet, most of Sweden i= s far warmer than here in mid-New York State. =20 When discussing practices appropriate to climate I try to give normal win= ter low temperatures (-20 F or 30 C), and winter humidity levels (10%-15%= ) as those are critical. Perhaps I should also give normal summer highs = (90-95 F or 32-35 C) and summer humidity (85%-95%), but these seem less c= ritical to beekeeping practices. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:14:52 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: mesh sizes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank asks "I am looking seriously at using screened bottom boards starti= ng next year. I have read here in the past that 6 mesh is the perfect size, but that it= is hard to find. I understand that 1/4" and 1/8" mesh are easier to find, b= ut 1/4" will not keep out the wasps." I would not use 1/4", but not because of wasps. Honey bees can readily p= ass through 1/4 inch. Sooner or later you will want to move the hive wit= h the bottom screen on, and doing so with 1/4" would not be pleasant! Yo= u are correct, 6 mesh is very hard to find. However, 7 mesh is available= from several dealers including Betterbee (800-632-3379). I also sell 7 = mesh, but only in full rolls (36" X 100'). While I always have 7 mesh ar= ound (I use it to build the Sundance pollen traps), I use 8 mesh (1/8") f= or screened boards just because it is less expensive. I "think" it works= fine, but undoubtely 7 mesh would be better. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Oct 0101 14:40:54 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Screened bottoms > : > > >Tested an IPM program of Screened bottoms, formic acid, both, and no > >treatment. Results were as follow for Russian stock - 1% to 8% using > >all four. Using both formic acid and screen did have lowest mite > >population, no treatment had highest mites but still low. Are we talking Tmites or Vmites?There is an article in the Oct.01 American Bee Journal detailing a study of tracheal mite levels in Russian stock versus a domestic strain,also with formic acid and screen bottoms.I havent had time to really wade through it,but it seems to say that Russian stock kept the Tmite levels below damaging levels without treatment,while the domestic strain did not.The researchers seemed surprised by the high levels in the domestic colonies as they were in Louisiana where Tmites are not generally considered a problem.They also noted that the screened bottoms enhanced the effect of the formic,rather than dissipating the fumes away,resulting in fewer mites than solid bottoms.I think they said that one treatment of the formic gell didnt reduce the mite levels in the domestic stock enough to prevent damage. The conclusion I am coming to is that formic in combination with stock that shows some resistance to both mites may be the best option for economical mite control ,because the writing is on the wall for the 'hard chemicals'.Some form of screen bottom seems necessary to monitor mite levels and for summer ventilation.I am not convinced that leaving the bottom open during the winter and spring is a good idea.The only study Ive seen shows reduced Fall and early spring brood rearing and says why this is a good thing.This is in direct opposition to the belief of many California beekeepers who go to great expense to get plenty of young bees in the hive ahead of almond pollination.So I guess its where you are and what you are trying to do that makes the difference. Mike (please excuse the date.this old machine refuses to send the right date despite expert advice on how to fix it) --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:44:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Frank I. Reiter" Subject: Re: Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200110181326.f9IDQWY01451@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > > Unfortunately, this is an example of faulty math. If screens with > formic have half as many mites, that doesn't mean double > effectiveness, my mistake. > > Actually, if the controls are 70% infected and the formic hives > have a 21% rate, then 70% of the total mites have been killed > (49 divided by 70). If you add the screens and have a 9% rate, > then you have killed 87% of the total mites (61 divided by 70). > This means that only 17% of the total kill with formic and > screens combined is accountable to the screens. That doesn't sounds very impressive put that way, but comparing the resulting infestation rates with and without screens (21% and 9%) it seems that the screens got rid of more than half of what the acid alone left behind, lowering the infection percentage (measured how?) by about 57%. Perhaps the formic acid treatment results in mites which fall but are not killed, and the screens remove most or many of those from the hive. Frank. ----- The very act of seeking sets something in motion to meet us; something in the universe, or in the unconscious responds as if to an invitation. - Jean Shinoda Bolen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 20:03:29 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Peter You will find most of the published figures on various German websites, the referances I do not have to hand, but I know there was some published by Helmut Horne about 15 or 20 years ago. The technique is not new, but has been used in cold climates for more than a century. You speak as if $17 is a high price to pay for an OMF... you could barely find a wooden one for that price in UK. The main reason for using OMF in UK is improved wintering, a slightly later spring build up is more than compensated for by an accellerated brood rearing rate which overtakes the solid bottomed controls after a few weeks. Any IPM effect is purely a bonus... Nobody had heard of varroa when they stated using OMFs (I think somewhere in New York about 1890). One difference that may not be appreciated is that many US hives are kept fairly low to the ground, whereas in UK our floors are mostly 350 mm to 400 mm above ground level. OMFs are not so good low down as a good deal of damp exists at low levels. I think this has some bearing on why US hives tend to have additional top entrances, because they do not get adequate ventilation with the low damp floors (bottom boards). Best regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:19:48 +0200 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Re: Moving full size hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello CSlade777, Thursday, October 18, 2001, 1:23:50 AM, you wrote: CAC> Debra Sharpe has trouble in lifting a full size box (presumably Langstroth) CAC> full of honey. I have occasionlly had the same problem when the bees have CAC> filled a national box with honey - it seems to be glued down at first. It CAC> must be one of the causes of beekeeper's back. CAC> I suggest Debra could solve her problem by lateral thinking. Instead of CAC> having 20 frames in 2 layers of 10, have them all side by side in a single CAC> layer. Of course, it will mean breaking with convention and also doing a CAC> little carpentry, but, hey, why follow the herd. You have nothing to lose Remarks on Chris suggesting to think lateral. I do use for over 25 years now bee hives wich are constructed in that way that I do not need to lift any super! The hives I am using have 17 combs side by side as the brood chamber. The brood chamber is separated from the honey room by a vertical queen excluder taking another 17 frames. Thus I do have 34 frames in my hive wich I can inspect without moving any supers. In that way bee I have no problems at all lifting heavy weights. This bee hive was invented about 35 years ago by the bee keeper Golz who propagated this type of bee hive for easy bee keeping in Germany. Of course this is no Langstroth type bee hive but I like it and the honey production within such a hive is the same. It allows very easy and "natural" beekeeping letting the hive to be adjusted more carefully to the bees needs without having to handle space by supers. This type of hive can be adapted to different frame types, thus it is not needed to use the european frame dimensions which differ from Langstroth. If one wants more information, please let me know. Best regards, Ahlert ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: Moving full size hive bodies Comments: To: Ahlert Schmidt In-Reply-To: <200110190017.f9J0HCY00332@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ahlert, Would you know if there are photos of this design on the web ? This system makes a lot of sense. My only question is: since there are no honey supers in this setup, how do you remove the frames for extracting honey ? In the US, it's common to replace the top cover doused with a bee-repelling substance (bee-go) in order to clear all the bees from the topmost super within 3 - 5 minutes. Do you smoke the bees out of the honey frames and then remove the frames from the hive into a separate box ? Best regards, Waldemar -----Original Message----- ...I am using have 17 combs side by side as the brood chamber. The brood chamber is separated from the honey room by a vertical queen excluder taking another 17 frames. Thus I do have 34 frames in my hive wich I can inspect without moving any supers. In that way bee I have no problems at all lifting heavy weights. ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:03:41 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Frank & all > 1) Will varroa reliably fall through a 1/8" mesh? Yes, I have not used anyting else. I have never seen a varroa mite (alive of dead) on the wire of the mesh. > 2) Does use open mesh floors promote raiding of hives by small ants? I do not think it makes any difference, if you have got ants you have an ant problem. If you don't have ants I do not think OMFs will cause you to get them. Best regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release Date: 10/9/01 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 22:35:22 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive Comments: cc: waldig@NETZERO.NET In-Reply-To: <200110190233.f9J2X7Y03590@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have a top bar hive, and it is set up similar to many "Long" hives; That is, it is the size of three Langstroth deep bodies set side by side. The enterances to my hive are on one of the short ends, and the bees like to keep the brood nest within a frame or two of the end with the enterance. When Harvesting honey, I slide the telescoping lid forward, exposing the frames at the "back" of the hive, and smoke them lightly. If it is cool, thre are few bees in the back of the hive. This job is best done very early in the morning, when it is cool, or at other times when you are less likely to be mobbed by robbing bees. As I lift individual full combs out of the hive, I brush the bees off with a standard nylon brush, and then place the combs in a covered container. With a TBH, a twist of the wrist breaks the combs off into a bucket or pan, but if you have standard frames, you will want to have an empty hive body or box to place them in. The removed combs are replaced with empty combs or top bars, and the hive is closed up again. The bees in the brood nest are not disturbed, and I have harvested honey on a cool day in autumn without using any brush, smoke or chemicals whatsoever. When the bees are clustered snugly up in the brood nest, they are reluctant to move- if you move gently, you will scarcely disturb them at all. I know of no plans for long hives on the net, but James Satterfields Top Bar Hive website has lots of Plans for long TBH's. If you want to do a langstroth version, just find a plan for a langstroth hive body, and triple the length of the ends where the frames rest. These become the side panels of a long hive. If you calculate your dimensions right, you can just use three standard inner lids laid side by side, but I do recommend making one big telescoping cover so that it is as weathertight as possible. (It cost me about $40 to have my giant plywood lid covered with sheet metal, but it looks really nice!) You can just slide the telescoping cover back from the front, remove the first inner cover, and place supers over the brood nest area if you really want to make comb honey in rounds or casettes or something. (A brick or two keeps the lid from tipping, and the slant actually runs rainwater away from where the lid is butted up aginst the super.) I have been using a set up similar to this to allow my TBH to clean up hive scrapings and cappings for me this summer. I slid back the lid as descibed above, placed a queen excluder over the notched top bars to act as a shelf, and covered it with an old hive body and lid. All my scrapings and stuff go into this to get cleaned up- by my next visit the wax is clean and ready for the melter, and I have avoided robbing problems. (And have a lot fewer ants in my solar wax melter!) An old dish pan of cappings set in the empty "Back" of the TBH is also quickly cleaned up by the bees with no muss or fuss- and it's easier to get the dry wax out of the dishpan than to scrape it off of a queen excluder! Using this hive as "Clean up Crew" has saved me quite a bit of mess, stickiness, and robbing problems this year! Ellen in Michigan waldig wrote: Ahlert, Would you know if there are photos of this design on the web ? This system makes a lot of sense. My only question is: since there are no honey supers in this setup, how do you remove the frames for extracting honey ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 10:01:27 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: yosi sarid Subject: queen cells gnawing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello all. I have a problem trying to reard new queens. My problem is that in some hives,who used for queen rearing, workers are gnawing the queen cell as soon as it seald. In some cases the quenns larvae are also gnawwed. There is a plenty of pollen and honey in those hive, and certainly there is no queen in the rearing queen super. The queen locates in the buttom super where the queen rearing take place at the upper super. I have to say that this is the firt time it happend to me. Thank you all YOSI _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:10:21 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Coverting deeps to mediums MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill Truesdell wrote: 'I will put a medium with foundation over the deep which has the bees.' Bill, i have heard beekeepers claim that the first box to go on in the spring must have built comb (no foundation) because the bees will not build comb in the early season and end up congested and prepare tg swarm. Any opinions on this, anyone? /Mats ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:49:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Rev. Mike Martin" Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > waldig wrote: Ahlert, > > Would you know if there are photos of this design on the web ? This system > makes a lot of sense. My only question is: since there are no honey supers > in this setup, how do you remove the frames for extracting honey ? I have two Langstroth hives and two TBH's, I love the Langstroths for their "standard"ness... but the TBH's are my favorite because they are so easy to work. When I harvest my frames from the TBH, I use it mostly as comb honey because it isn't conducive to being spin extracted. One option however is to build a press and basically mash the comb, extracting the honey that way and ending up with fairly clean wax as the press is pretty good at getting most of the honey out. Then I rinse my wax cakes in fairly warm water and use the resulting honey water (plus some extracted honey) for a must to make mead out of. The wax is used by myself and my friends in our re-enactment group (we reenact the middle ages as a hobby) and the honey is also used primarily amoungst myself and my friends. (Sadly, I can no longer eat honey like I once did... being diabetic sucks) Check out http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm for lots of fine info on TBH's. Mike -- Rev. Mike Martin Lord Hrothgar the Smith http://members.home.net/mmartin139/ scribere jussit amor ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 11:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Wholesale Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was wondering if someone could provide me with an idea of what to = expect as a wholesale price for 1 and 2 pound plastic honey jars. Any insight is appreciated BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping=20 http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/Opening.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive In-Reply-To: <200110191030.f9JAUVY14724@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to set up a couple of hives here on Long Island next spring and would like to pick the most suitable hive construction, hopefully, from the start so as not to have to make a change at some later point. I sure appreciate everyone's input. :) >>When Harvesting honey, I slide the telescoping lid forward, exposing the frames at the "back" of the hive, and smoke them lightly. If it is cool, thre are few bees in the back of the hive. [...] With a TBH, a twist of the wrist breaks the combs off into a bucket or pan, but if you have standard frames, you will want to have an empty hive body or box to place them in. I remember my uncles in Poland using the long hive configuration some years ago when I used to visit them and help out occasionally. The hives were set a bit higher off the ground, than I have seen done in the US, so that the hive tops were roughly waist high. It was comfortable to inspect the hives in the upright position and remove the frames ready for extracting honey. There was no need for handling any hive bodies - just the top/inner covers and the frames themselves. In the spring, when the colonies were at their smallest, the secondary, movable insulating back wall would be moved up towards the entrace to give the bees a smaller space they could fill. Frames were added at the back as the colonies expanded during the nectar flow. One of the websites, mentioned that the long or TBH configuration results in 'less but better honey.' Did you find this to be the case ? Can folks comment on this from their own experience ? I could not see why this config would yield less honey. Or why it would be better, for that matter. I also have a question about whether or not TBH's can use screened bottoms. >>It cost me about $40 to have my giant plywood lid covered with sheet metal, but it looks really nice! I can see myself getting a roll of aluminum coil from a building supplies store and bending it to form the outer skin of the top cover. It's easy enough to do. Waldemar PS. I plan to inquire about these matters at the next LI Beekeepers Club meeting as well. :) ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:01:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive In-Reply-To: <200110191359.f9JDxsY19248@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>When I harvest my frames from the TBH, I use it mostly as comb honey because it isn't conducive to being spin extracted. Would you elaborate on this point. Is it because the frames do not fit in the standard extractor ? I'd think one option might be to use standard frames in the TBH's. Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:11:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Hrothgar Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit waldig wrote: > > >>When I harvest my frames from the TBH, I use it mostly as comb honey > because it isn't conducive to being spin extracted. > > Would you elaborate on this point. Is it because the frames do not fit in > the standard extractor ? I'd think one option might be to use standard > frames in the TBH's. There is no frame per se. There is only a top bar, the comb is natural. I have standard frames in my TBH's for the brood nest (because when I bought my bees that's how they came) and you can certainly use standard langstroth frames in your TBH if you'd like. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 21:43:17 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Re: queen cells gnawing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yosi, When dealing with sealed queen cells, I often protect them with a wrapping of aluminium paper - leaving only the tip apparent. Unsealed cells- never had a problem, but again try carefully wrapping leaving the open end clear. This is OK for a small number of cells. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 16:54:23 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jenny Reed Subject: Re: Taking honey from a long hive In-Reply-To: <200110191845.f9JIjDY00448@listserv.albany.edu> from "waldig" at Oct 19, 2001 02:50:03 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > One of the websites, mentioned that the long or TBH configuration results in > 'less but better honey.' Did you find this to be the case ? Can folks > comment on this from their own experience ? I could not see why this config > would yield less honey. Or why it would be better, for that matter. > > In a top-bar hive, the bees live in a natural state. Although you encourage them to build their honeycombs down from the top bars, they do all the work. In a Langstroth hive, you give them a frame with wax on it, so that they need do very little in the way of building the combs - they're practically built already. Given the same number of bees in each kind of hive, the top bar hive will produce less honey because the bees have more work to do to build the combs. They cannot fill combs that don't exist, you see. However, you get more honeycomb out of a top bar hive, which means more wax. This is really good if you make candles or otherwise use wax, or if you have a market to sell that wax. As for the flavor? Well, I can only guess, but this is my guess: whenever you process things too much, they lose their flavor; when you mess with the ways the bees work by preparing their combs for them, you'll get a honey that doesn't taste as good. Perhaps the natural combs add flavor. Your other question was about frames in the top-bar hive. There are no frames in a top-bar hive, this is the POINT of the hive. No frames, just natural honeycomb, hanging from a bar (on the top of the hive, thus the term top-bar) that can be easily lifted out of the hive. To put frames into a top-bar hive destroys the concept, I think. If you want frames, use a Langstroth hive instead. Each has its purpose. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:02:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Moving full sized hive bodies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Debra. I do the same thing you did with your top honey super and also with the lower brood super. If bees are flying before you open the hive, it isn't too cold to open the brood super. Just put on your veil and let the bees get mad if they want to. They'll get over it. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 19:32:28 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: BEE-L Digest - 17 Oct 2001 to 18 Oct 2001 (#2001-283) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 19/10/01 05:08:39 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Re: Moving full size hive bodies >> Ahlert, Where is the entrance in your Golz hive? How do you achieve swarm reduction with this design? Do you work for comb honey or for centrifuged? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 14:37:33 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: TBH honey vs wax/ Long hives/ Screened bottoms Comments: cc: waldig@NETZERO.NET In-Reply-To: <200110191846.f9JIk6Y00463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In most top bar hives, the bees build natural, free hanging comb from a ridge or starter strip on the bottom of the top bar. Since thre is usually no foundation wires or side or bottom bars, the comb is usually harvested whole, and used as comb or chunk honey, or strained for liquid honey. Since the bees have to produce all the wax, every time, you get less honey, but more wax. As for better honey, one school of thought contends that comb honey is THE BEST Honey, since it holds onto all the good flavor the bees incorporated into it. Second best is strained or pressed honey- that runs out of broken up combs. Centrifically extacted honey is never quite as flavorfull as comb or pressed honey because when the tiny drops are whipped out of the comb, they lose some of their essential oils into the air. (Anyone who has been in a honey house at extracting time can surely recall the intense smell of honey as it is extracted- this is lost flavor, and some claim they can taste the difference.) The star thistle honey I strained from my TBH combs was VERY nicely flavored- I never did a side by side comparison with star thistle that was extracted centrifucally tho. Might be a good experament for next year, since I have langstroths in the same yard as the TBH- they sho! uld be working similar floral sources. Hmmmmmmm....... If you plan on extracting and reusing combs, consider using the long box, but use a standard frame. The advantages of a Top bar are that the wax is built fresh each time- no pesticide or disease residues. You harvest more wax, and building top bars and a box requires much less skill and precision carpentry than building lansgtroth equipment. This is important in developing areas where tools and materials are scarce, but may not be a concern to many people on this list. Extractors are expensive, and so are uncapping knives, settling tanks, and everything else that goes into modern honey processing. Harvesting a few frames of strained honey requires nothing more than a colander or strainer, and a big mixing bowl or bucket. It works great on a small scale, but is too slow for large quantities. Unless you the specific advantages that Top Bars offer, the disadvantages may make langstoth style frames a better choice. If you already have an extractor, and want to use it, you pretty much have to go with langstroth frames. Natural, unreinforced comb won't hold up to extracting. I built my TBH so that I can drop Lanstroth frames into it. I started the hive from a Nuc, and still boost the hive occasionally by adding a frame of brood from another hive. Frames added can be worked out by shifting them towards the back of the hive. Once there is one or two frames of honey between the comb and the brood nest, the queen won't cross over to lay on it. All the queens I have had in my TBH have been reluctant to cross any honey to lay. In fact, you do have to watch and make sure the bees aren't closing in the brood nest with honey. Even young vigourous queens seem to keep a smaller brood nest in a TB/ long hive than in a vertical one. They seem less inclined to travel over than up. This too may account for less honey in a long hive- I have seen it stated before is that bees prefer to travel up and down, rather from side to side. It does seem to be true in my experience with my TBH. Summer, or winter, it takes a little encouragement to get the bees to expand horizontally. I guess it's another trade off. I have been debating about putting a screened bottom under the brood nest area in my TBH. I could take a roto-zip, cut out the plywood in the center of the box, and staple in Hardware cloth, but I an a little worried about doing so. The field my TBH is in is extremely windy, and since the bees in the TBH are just above the floor when going into winter, they would be very exposed to drafts from below. One of the problems of wintering a TBH that I have encountered is that although there is plenty of honey towards the back of the hive, the bees don't move back to use it. I have to rearrange combs in Febuary to keep them from starving in cluster. I'm afraid that with a screened bottom, this immobility would be fatal even sooner. I asked for comment from anyone who has used screened bottom boards with TBH's, and I recieved no answers to my question- just inquiries from others who were wondering the same thing. I would guess, that in a milder or more sheltered climate, the screened bottom board would be a very good thing. I'm just afraid that the harsh, windy winters near Pontiac Michigan are just a bit too bitter to allow for sucessful wintering directly over a drafty bottom. I may try to come up with a way to allow them the screen in the summer, but close it up in the winter. Or maybe by providing a 1x6 skirting about the bottom to cut drafts..... I don't know- I'm not much of a carpenter, and my shop (and time) resources are very limited. If anyone does try this, or has other Ideas, I'd love to hear about your experiences. Ellen in Michigan waldig wrote: One of the websites, mentioned that the long or TBH configuration results in 'less but better honey.' Did you find this to be the case ? Can folks comment on this from their own experience ? I could not see why this config would yield less honey. Or why it would be better, for that matter. I also have a question about whether or not TBH's can use screened bottoms. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:29:49 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: mite damage by A.m.m. was SMR bees on small cell In-Reply-To: <200110131759.f9DHxHY17911@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200110131759.f9DHxHY17911@listserv.albany.edu>, Dennis Murrell writes >Hello Everyone, > >I am running SMR bees on small cell comb and have noticed an abundance of >bee damaged mites in the debris below a screened bottom board. At least >50% of the mites show obvious damage by bitten. I didn't look for missing >legs, etc. Other races are also damaging mites but to a lesser extent. John Dews has bred bees from selected hygienic stock of A.m.m. which damage up to 57% varroa in the first 5 years, the last lot of 43 queens having I.I. Wallner's bees in Austria damaged over 60% and needed no treatment to survive. See http://griffes.tripod.com/VRbook.html John has given permission to pass on his recent summary. BIBBA VARROA RESISTANCE BREEDING PROJECT This project is now in its fifth year. The bees are continuously exposed to varroa, treatment of thymol or lactic acid being given only when necessary to keep the mite population below the lethal limit. From 1997 to 1999 the bees were observed for their response to varroa and regular counts were made of the natural daily mite drop. Differences were found between the colonies, the most susceptible having four times more mites than the least susceptible colony. In June 2000 queens were raised from the hives with low mite drop, instrumentally inseminated and placed in small experimental nucs. Mites were collected in September and examined for damage which averaged 41% (range 31 - 47%) compared to mites from other hives in the apiary which averaged 31% damage (21 - 41%). The I.I. queens wintered successfully in the small well insulated nucs, each containing six half size B.S. brood frames, and rapidly built up in the spring of 2001, when they were transferred to National hives. The examination of mites in August and September this year confirmed the differences noted in September 2000. Damage to mites in the hives headed by the I.I. queens averaged 46% (37 - 56%) whilst damage in the other hives averaged 36% (28 - 45%). It was interesting to observe that some of the damaged mites were still alive, something not reported by other researchers in this country. These results indicate that, in this particular strain of our native black honeybee (Apis mellifera mellifera), lower levels of varroa infestation are associated with higher levels of damaged mites. The increased level of damage in all colonies from September 2000 to September 2001 supports the view first expressed by Professor Ruttner, and more recently in the USA, that if bees are continuously exposed to varroa, they may develop their own natural defence that will keep the infestation under control (as in the SMR - Suppression of Mite Reproduction - bees in the US), or be able to survive with fewer applications of low efficiency chemicals. An American writer commented recently that with the current use of powerful chemical treatments, beekeepers are keeping the mite levels too low for the bees to develop their own resistance mechanisms. In view of the recent discovery in this country of mites resistant to Apistan and Bayvarol, some radical rethinking of our attitude to varroa is needed. John E Dews - 27th September 2001 -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:26:49 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: TBH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Waldmer says "One of the websites, mentioned that the long or TBH configu= ration results in 'less but better honey.' Did you find this to be the case ? Can folks comment on this from their own experience ? I could not see why this con= fig would yield less honey. Or why it would be better, for that matter." This statement is true. TBH's yield less honey because a great deal of the nectar has to be used = to produce wax, while the nectar instead be deposited directly into combs= that are all ready drawn. The rule of thumb that I use is that comb hon= ey hives will produce about 40% less than adjacent hives run for extracti= on. However, the honey is better for a number of reasons. The primary reason= is that no off taste occurs because of cocoons left from prior brood in = the same cells. Also there is no heating of honey eaten in the comb, whi= le honey that is extracted is often heated to retard granulation. But what does it matter if one gets less honey? Is this a business? If = so, TBH's are a poor choice, for many reasons other than that they produc= e less honey. =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 08:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: Wholesale Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeFarmer Wrote: I was wondering if someone could provide me with an idea of what to = > expect as a wholesale price for 1 and 2 pound plastic honey jars. Ken Writes: An index of prices is listed monthly in American Bee Journal and the prices vary on your general geographic location within the US. The Retail price stated in the September issue show 1 pound jars at between: $1.75 and $3.50. 2 pound at between: $3.00 and $6.00 Ken Haller Jr. apism@home.com Zone 5A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:06:12 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: mite damage by A.m.m. was SMR bees on small cell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello James, Bob and Everyone, Thanks for the information. I too have noticed live damaged mites. Some are apparently mortally wounded while others move irregularly comparted to other undamaged mites. The bees behavior certainly does change toward the mites as the season progresses. As the season ends most hives starting cleansing the hives of mites about the same time, but others started the process almost 6 weeks later. It could be as Bob stated that the bees can sense a certain mite level. Today, I used powdered sugar on my SMR small cell hives. Little or no brood was present in the hives. About 400 mites/hive dropped from the powdered sugar treatment. It was cool, in the 50's degrees F, and the bees were in a loose cluster with about 8 solid frames of bees. This is the last inspection inside the hive of the year for me. Next spring will be interesting. One of the large commercial beekeepers told that his traditional method of treating mites with Apistan failed this year with most of the drones in some hives having two or three mites each after treatment. The other commercial beekeeper is having worse problems with mites than that. He has switched to Checkmite. I guess that could explain alot of the problems I have been having with mite immigration. Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 22:13:07 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: TBH honey vs wax/ Long hives/ Screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <20011019213733.49714.qmail@web9606.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Since the bees have to produce all the wax, every time, you get less honey, but more wax. As for better honey, one school of thought contends that comb honey is THE BEST Honey, since it holds onto all the good flavor the bees incorporated into it.... If you plan on extracting and reusing combs, consider using the long box, but use a standard frame. I have a much clearer picture of the TBH. Thank you. I recall reading somewhere along the line that it takes some 12 pounds of honey to produce 1 pound of wax. Since a big chunk of the honey goes to comb production, there is obviously less left in the cells. Ahlert sent me a great overview of the Golz hive. It is what I had in mind when asking about the TBH hive. In the Golz hive, the bees are presented with standard frames to deposit their honey. So there is no huge undertaking to produce lots and lots of wax. The queen excluder is positioned between the adjacent brood and honey rows. Also, the honey frames are in a row along the row of brood frames. Not behind. During the winter, the bees would need to move as a cluster sideways rather than towards the back of the hive. Someone pointed out that bees prefer to move up rather than back during the winter. Since they don't have to traverse frames front to back in the Golz hive, I would think they would have no problem moving sideways to get to more honey. Waldemar ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 17:31:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dennis Murrell Subject: Re: Long Hive Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ellen and Everyone, Long hives in Michigan. Very interesting! How do overwinter the bees? Do the bees learn to move horizontally? Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 20:36:12 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Top Bar Hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/10/01 05:08:26 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I'd think one option might be to use standard frames in the TBH's. >> The essential point about a TBH is that it uses top bars only, hence the acronym. With frames it is an ordinary long hive with all its advantages and disadvantages. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:00:19 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii If you segregate your extracating frames from those in which brood has been raised, as I do, then there is no advantage in having all your frames the same size. There is a tiny advantage in using deeps for brood: The honey arch is about the same width in deeps as in mediums so two deeps will have more brood raising area than three mediums. Obviously, the beekeeper will provide enough brood raising area regardless of the depth of the frames. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 06:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Long Hive Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Dennis, > Long hives in Michigan. Very interesting! How do overwinter the bees? In my opinion they would winter ok in mild climates but winter *could* be a problem because the bees make a choice which way for the cluster to move . If you are in a area where the temperature drops down and stays down the side the cluster decides to move to (left or right) would each side need enough stores to provide stores for the extended period. Confinning the queen to left or right side with a queen excluder would solve the problem. Warm spells through out winter would also solve the problem. I doubt even the "Long hivers" would argue with the above and with careful preperation long hives would winter. Do the bees learn to move horizontally? My queen rearing partner has a long hive with standard removable frames which we use. He made the long hive so we can keep the queen in the center section confined by a queen excluder on each side. The queen is a expensive II breeder queen (not SMR) and we need to find her often. We control the area she has to lay eggs in to keep her from running out of semen early. A few frames is all she has to lay eggs on at any time. We add sealed brood to keep the hive at the right strength. I will ask my friend when I see him today if he has ever wintered bees in his long hive and if he encountered problems. I would winter a bit different with his long hive. I would rearrange the nest at the end of brood rearing and put the nest at the far end of one side or the other. I would then put all the sealed honey from the nest to the far other side and pull both queen excluders. Then in my opinion the bees would move slowly across the box using up stores and be on the opposite side the next spring. In the spring I would rearrange and put the nest in the center so less frame would need to be looked at (in our case) in finding the queen and checking her work. Monitor the queen is our use for the long hive and my only experience. For those on Bee-L not following me the long hive as set up with the nest in center is like a hive in three langstroth boxes with the nest in the center and a deep of honey above and one below. To winter properly in a cold area the nest needs to be below all the honey or above all the honey. Below in my opinion is better but I have successfully wintered both ways. Starvation is according to bee books the number one cause of winter bee hive loss. I will rearrange a brood nest in a heartbeat to better winter. Time consuming but I hate dealing with deadouts. Sincerely, Bob Harrison " Deadouts are indeed a measure of your beekeeping skills!" Ps. One of the sites Allen listed to look at for winter information listed around 25% winter losses with their methods. I consider 25% to be unacceptable. I have had those levels before (not often) and place the blame on myself and not mites or cold winters. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 10:29:00 +0200 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Fallen vs. living mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know what the estimated ratio is between fallen mites and living ones? If i have a natural mite fall of 20 in 24 hours, how many mites do i have in the colony? I suppose the ratio would vary between different times of the year, but any input on this would be interesting. What is the threshold number of mites where the colony starts to suffer and develop secondary problems, such as Deformed Wing Virus etc? /Mats (Stockholm, Sweden) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:54:00 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: brief assessment of Fluvalinate In-Reply-To: <200012281857.NAA05218@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200012281857.NAA05218@listserv.albany.edu>, Mike Tooley writes >Selecting for virus resistant bees is another option. That's happening and they do now exist in Germany and Austria. see http://griffes.tripod.com/VRbook.html >After all,isnt that >really what the Buckfast bee was all about,finding bee strains that survived >the viruses vectored by tracheal mites? But now we know (according to Bailey and others) that there is no vectoring. They just like the same conditions and so are associated. snip >Essential oils in my experience do not give effective control of >varroa But there may indeed be evidence now that if you allow a significant but non-lethal level of mites, bees may take to grooming them off, and where they also damage them, plus OMF's not letting undamaged live ones back, you may at least be able to select and breed bees that eventually will cope on their own. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 02:51:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: Wholesale Prices In-Reply-To: <200110201445.f9KEj0Y06638@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am currently getting $2.75 and $3.00 per pound for one pound jars and $5.50 for two pound jars wholesale to small markets and farm stands and the honey is flying off the shelves. If store owners wont pay Your price then move on, You have to promote its high standard compared to the Chinese blends on the supermarket shelves. Don't give away Your honey. I don't know where they get those prices in ABJ and Bee Culture but they are way off. Garry Libby Attleboro, Massachusetts, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:26:59 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: David Walter Subject: New list member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I am new to beekeeping. I have recently started on a basic beekeeping course and I hope to have my first bees in the Spring. I live in Cornwall, England (for those who don't know the geography of England, that's the 'toe' of England on the south west, pointing out into the Atlantic). My interest is purely as a hobby with enough surplus to cover all the costs of the hobby - and for family and friends, of course. However, having decided to do this, I would like to do it properly, so I will listen and learn. David Walter david@3R.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:43:13 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Elliott Subject: Re: TBH honey vs wax/ Long hives/ Screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I recall reading somewhere along the line that it takes some 12 pounds of > honey to produce 1 > pound of wax. Since a big chunk of the honey goes to comb production, there > is obviously less left in the cells. Assuming this figure to be accurate, how much does a super of empty natural comb (that is without foundation) weigh? That is how much wax is actually needed? I would guess (purely gut reaction) that labor would be more costly than honey. Tom -- "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Tom Elliott Chugiak, Alaska U.S.A. beeman@gci.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 20:37:25 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 21/10/01 05:04:12 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << The rule of thumb that I use is that comb hon= ey hives will produce about 40% less than adjacent hives run for extracti= on. >> But as comb honey sells for maybe 3 times the price of extracted and is a much easier crop to handle in small quantities TBHs are worth while. More importantly, they are fun. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 19:17:26 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dan hendricks said: > If you segregate your extracating frames from those in which brood > has been raised, as I do, then there is no advantage in having all > your frames the same size. In my view, there IS a significant advantage in standardization - one can take drawn comb that had been used for extracted honey, and create a brood chamber containing "fully-drawn" comb for a split, package, or swarm in a matter of seconds. The queen can thus be unrestrained in her laying from the start, rather than being limited by the triple whammy of a lack of drawn comb, a small colony population, and a lack of significant nectar. While this may be only a minor advantage during a significant nectar flow, one hopes that packages and queens arrive well before the blooming of the significant nectar plants. Clearly, once one has used a frame for brood, it can no longer be used in honey supers, but this is easy to track with stencils, thumbtacks, permanent magic marker, or wood-burning pencils. I am a big fan of colored thumbtacks to track the age of brood frames (using the yearly queen colors) . jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:18:46 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Rowbottom Subject: Re: Moving full size hive bodies In-Reply-To: <200110180211.f9I2BuY04006@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200110180211.f9I2BuY04006@listserv.albany.edu>, CSlade777@AOL.COM writes > It >must be one of the causes of beekeeper's back. Let me very blunt. The two primary causes of beekeepers back are poor lifting position and lifting weights that are too heavy, and these two are inter-related. If you were working as a manual labourer in a responsible UK Company you would receive training in all aspects of lifting and your subsequent performance on the job would be monitored. Persistent lifting of excessive weights would take you down a course towards termination of employment. It is a sign of outdated thinking that regards such damage to people as an inevitable outcome. Heavy lifting can always be avoided by careful planning. Regards -- Mike Rowbottom (clearly feeling very tetchy) HARROGATE North Yorkshire UK