From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:55 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9757324ADC3 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO3p010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO3p010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0110D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 147960 Lines: 3000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 22:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: Long Hive Overwintering In-Reply-To: <200110210528.f9L5SwY23282@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I try to make sure they have plenty of food, make sure they havent filled in the space along the sidewalls with comb, (Recut the bee space if they have filled it in.) and, I must admit, feed them sugar over notches cut in the top bars in about march. (Lift lid, pour sugar about hole, add small stick or stones, and leave lid propped about 3/4 inch. (Telescoping style lid.) I tried punching holes in the combs with an apple corer to let the bees commute from comb to comb, but they tend to winter on one side or the other of the hive, so that the cluster can wrap around the edge of the combs. I gave up on the holes. It may be a symptom that the combs are too large, because the honey on the other side of the hive/ comb generally remains untouched. (The cluster doesn't cover and wrap around the whole comb, and they cannot go over the top, as they do in a langstroth, unless the bar is notched, and the lid is tilted.) This spring when I ws able to fully open the hive and check on them, I had about 4 inches of honey along the left hand side of the brood nest. The combs were empty in the middle and along the right side, and the bees were clustered towards the right, and starting to starve because they had lost the queen, and the cluster was shrinking rapidly. I combined the bees left with one of my Langstroth hives, and restocked the TBH with a split in May. Although losing the queen is NOT typical, the pattern of cluster movement seems to be. They start out near the bottom of the combs in fall, move upward, and then towards one side or the other. They move backward along the edge of the combs if weather permits, but in Michigan, in February and March, weather doesn't usually permit. Even in the cold, they will take sugar placed around notches cut in the top bars, So I feed them to see them thru between breaks in the weather. I did notice, this year, that the bees do better I prop up the lid and give them sugar. I think the added ventilation is doing them even more good than the sugar. About half the Bars in the whole hive are notched (3/8 inch x3 inch notches, cut on one side of bar. Most of the notches are in the brood area.) so quite a bit of upper ventilation is provided when I lift the lid. Maybe I'll try leaving it propped slightly all winter this year. Ellen Dennis Murrell wrote: Hi Ellen and Everyone, Long hives in Michigan. Very interesting! How do overwinter the bees? Do the bees learn to move horizontally? Best Wishes Dennis Murrell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 10:19:09 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Supering in spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mats asked "Bill, i have heard beekeepers claim that the first box to go = on in the spring must have built comb (no foundation) because the bees will not bui= ld comb in the early season and end up congested and prepare tg swarm. " What a topic! Pages could be spent in response, as well as many differen= t opinions. =20 Mats, the statement is definitely not true, but that does not mean that t= he advice is poor. Producing comb honey is largely an exercise in swarm = control. That said, bees absolutely will build comb early in the spring = and I have harvested many a super of comb honey produced on dandelion! H= owever, this is also the time when bees are most likely to swarm, so swar= m control methods are required. Having the first super be drawn comb is one of several lazy man's way of = swarm control, but is not absolutely necessary and may be undesirable if = the object is to produce comb honey. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Oct 0101 14:32:31 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: mite damage by A.m.m. was SMR bees on small cell > In view of the recent discovery in this country of mites resistant to > Apistan and Bayvarol, some radical rethinking of our attitude to varroa > is needed. > > John E Dews - 27th September 2001 > > -- > James Kilty > James,you are right about that.We are never going to get rid of these nasty parasites,so we have to learn to deal with the reality of the situation.We have had a few years of almost 100% control with easy (though very expensive)treatments.Our treated hives have sent out swarms that crashed 2 years later re-infesting our hives.This has been an on-going problem. (sorry,folks,I think most of your 'resistant'feral hives are just swarms from treated hives.It takes a very observant beekeeper to tell the difference) The beekeepers you refer to are on the right track,looking for resistance,and using treatments that are not as effective as the chemical strips,but still keep the varroa levels below the point of killing the bees. It was interesting to me that Wallner felt the Carniolan had the best chance for resistance.Is this still true?Does anyone know how his bees are doing now? Is he still relying heavily on formic acid? Mike Tooley --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:21:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Wholesale Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was wondering if someone could provide me with an idea of what to = > expect as a wholesale price for 1 and 2 pound plastic honey jars. > > Any insight is appreciated We tried some 1lb. plastic jars, and found they tenden to leak - the lids couldn't be screwed on tight enough, they would jump the threads. We may have been unlucky, but be warned! J. J. Herts, UK EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 18:04:19 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Coyle Subject: Bee Talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am wondering of those of you that give bee talks what information do you include in your talks? How long do they take and how much do you charge per talk? -- Ken coyle@golden.net Home page: http://home.golden.net/~coyle Grand River Beekeepers' Association: http://home.golden.net/~coyle/grba/grba.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee(s) only and may contain privileged, confidential, or proprietary information that is exempt from disclosure under law. If you have received this message in error, please inform me promptly by reply e-mail, then delete the e-mail and destroy any printed copy. Thank you. ============================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 07:18:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Long Hive Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > will rearrange a brood nest in a heartbeat to better winter. Time consuming > but I hate dealing with deadouts. Rearranging brood nests after August is a prescription for hive death here in Alberta. We have learned to leave them the way they are or lose the hives we have 'helped' while those we left 'unassisted' winter well. > One of the sites Allen listed to look at for winter information listed > around 25% winter losses with their methods. I consider 25% to be > unacceptable. These are the facts of life in areas where the wintering season extends from the end of September to the beginning of May and bees cannot be worked extensively during that time without risk of harm. The writers cited are being honest. These are typical long term (+/- 5%) averages for commercial operators who count losses in May, count small hives in their losses, and don't pretend to save weak hives by stealing brood and bees from stronger colonies. Some years losses can be as low as 6%, but then again, other years can bring losses of up to 50%. It is possible to reduce losses by extensive beekeeping late in the previous season, but the economics of trying to save a questionable hive are poor. The cost of such intervention is high, time is very short, and the success uncertain. Wintering begins in spring, and, by late summer, hives that have not made the grade might just as well make it on their own, or die. One of the less obvious reasons is this: 'Good' beekeepers change the majority of queens each year. When changing queens we buy queens from suppliers whose stock has done well before, BUT, each year, of necessity, the suppliers use different breeder queens and raise thousands upon thousands of queens from each. As a result, the stock may have changed and the bees sold in any one season may not winter as expected. Beekeepers using a large number of queens from one or two batches may thus suffer huge unexpected losses. This effect is less obvious in areas where winters are short, since most of the losses are hives that dwindle near the end of the confined period, and if that period is shorter, the losses are correspondingly less. I have written extensively about this and other factors before. Some of the material is in the logs and some is on my site at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/ > I have had those levels before (not often) and place the > blame on myself and not mites or cold winters. I've been to Missouri in Feb and March and thought it quite balmy. Mention has been made of the influence of latitude on wintering. In my experience, the two important factors (for beekeepers) that are directly dependant on latitude are the *length* of winter and the length of days during summer. Other factors, such as temperature and weather are less directly related. Winter is _at least two months shorter_ in Toronto than in Calgary. I trust that winters are even shorter in most of the US. allen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:01:58 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: long hives and top-bar hives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those who do not have to make their living from it, beekeeping should= first and foremost be fun and enjoyable. In the human race, few would c= all "failure" fun and enjoyable. For that reason, I strongly suggest tha= t brand-new beekeepers forgo both long hives and top-bar hives until they= have at least a couple of years of experience. Now, top-bar hives can be a joy to work with. However, they require some= expertise as well as the ability to shrug off the disappointment when th= e beekeeper has a sticky-stinging mess because combs were built together = despite the beekeepers best adherence to proper bee space in the design o= f hive and top-bars. It is not for no reason that in developing countrie= s top-bar hives are abandoned by most beekeepers as soon as they can affo= rd "normal" equipment. By all means try a top-bar hive or two, and perha= ps convert your operation to 100% top-bars, but only after you have some = experience with normal equipment, which is much easier for beginners to w= ork with. As for the long hives, they are interesting but also very difficult. The= difficulty is that bees "naturally" prefer to work upwards and will only= work sideways when under stress. This stress is likely to have them swa= rm before they expand to cover 20 frames set side-by-side. The only long= hives I have seen in operation were in France, and then the beekeeper sa= id he kept them just for fun...which is ok. I have had at least 5 beekee= pers tell me that they have tried to manage bees in a long hive, and fail= ed. Again, it is not without reason that modern apiaries in Eastern Euro= pe (where long hives seem to have originated) no longer use long hives fo= r commercial production. But to a beekeeper with some experience, a long hive can be fun. For ins= tance, this past spring, in Kansas, I saw a beekeeper running a two-queen= long hive for comb honey production. He had designed two 10-frame units= that sat side by side, with a queen excluder in place of a wall. Above,= with access from each 10-frame unit, were regular Ross Round supers. To= prevent the queens from going up to the supers and then down the "other = side", he also had a queen excluder under the Ross Round supers. He clai= med tremendous production, but it was too early in the season (first week= of June) for me to see the results. This sounds as if it would work. E= ach queen had 10 frames for brood, which is more than enough, and the wor= kers could follow their natural tendency to move up with stores. Lloyd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:14:40 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: comb honey supering in spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Lloyd and All, > Having the first super be drawn comb is one of several lazy man's way of = > swarm control, but is not absolutely necessary and may be undesirable if = > the object is to produce comb honey. The main reason beekeepers on occasion put a drawn super on first is to keep from getting a comb honey super laced with bitter tasting red pollen in our area of the Midwest. I super early with drawn and then pull the drawn comb off the hive I choose for comb honey production or simply place the comb honey super on top of the nectar filled first drawn super. In other areas of the U.S. pollen in comb honey supers may not be a big problem but comb foundation put on before the flow starts is only wax for bees to move around. New beekeepers need to know when the flow starts and what better indicator than a half filled drawn super? I only find the red pollen in the first super but I have had supers of comb honey made unmarketable by red pollen but only when put on directly over the brood nest. . If you do get pollen in the comb honey squares the comb can be cut into bite size squares and put in jars, filled with honey and sold as chunk honey. The small squares with pollen can be fed back to the bees. Comb honey is not cost effective in my operation and less so if I have to do extra work to get a marketable product. We do three farmers markets a week and sell comb honey all summer. three or four sections a outing is about it. I keep two freezers running year around to store the comb honey in (not cheap). I process the amount I need each time I bottle. Comb honey adds to the display but most prefer a small bear. Our biggest profit margin is the 12 oz. bear. We get buyers which buy a 12 oz. bear each week all summer long. I guess they never think of buying a gallon and a bear and refilling all summer. Many beekeepers are reporting switching to the new angel 12 oz. plastic and report a increase in sales. Has any beekeepers on the list tried the plastic 12 oz. angels and seen a increase in sales? Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Long Hive Overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Allen and All, > Rearranging brood nests after August is a prescription for hive death here > in Alberta. We have learned to leave them the way they are or lose the > hives we have 'helped' while those we left 'unassisted' winter well. I agree with Allen and should have added a time frame. I did my rearranging about six weeks ago when our temps were in the mid 80's F. I would not rearrange after the middle of September in our area. My bees have been ready for winter for quite a while and strips come out this week. > > One of the sites Allen listed to look at for winter information listed > > around 25% winter losses with their methods. I consider 25% to be > > unacceptable. > > These are the facts of life in areas where the wintering season extends from > the end of September to the beginning of May and bees cannot be worked > extensively during that time without risk of harm. > > Some years losses can be as low as 6%, but then again, other years can >bring losses of up to 50%. I will take 10-15% without a problem. After all if picked up in time all the hives need is bees. 25% to 50% and I blame myself. Maybe I am to hard on myself but with the close scrutiny I give my hives I see those numbers unacceptable and very high. > I've been to Missouri in Feb and March and thought it quite balmy. Strange? Perhaps you entered Missoura from the Kansas side bridge. The State of Kansas built a bridge for its residents to go to Missoura. The sign says "Bridge to Missoura" The bridge goes to the center of the river and turns around and goes back to Kansas. (Joke from Red Skelton Show in the 70's). Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:58:38 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi James and all, > Clearly, once one has used a frame for brood, it can no longer be used > in honey supers, but this is easy to track with stencils, thumbtacks, > permanent magic marker, or wood-burning pencils. I am a big fan of > colored thumbtacks to track the age of brood frames (using the yearly > queen colors) . Why Not? The only reason for this is because the beekeeper uses chemicals in the hive which will end up in the honey, ect.. If no chemicals are used then combs can be utilized anywhere at any time. I manage all colonies in the old unlimited brood nest management which utilizes three deep for brood chambers. Yet this can be done with any size equipment, shallows or mediums. It is just the concept of the management that counts. It provides room for food, space for a large brood nest, cuts down on congestion, ect. No syrup is needed to be fed. They get the honey for themselves. This cuts down labor! Don't have to haul feeders and mix up syrup. No extra trips to yards. Bees are just simply ready for winter all by themselves. Also arises a new question. What is harvestable honey? Isn't it the honey that is surplus to the bees needs? Why is it the the majority of beekeepers (not all) seem to feed their bees every year with syrup for wintering? If you are feeding, was the honey you harvested truely surplus? Would it not be easier just to move frames of honey into the brood chambers? After all it is what bees eat. Some say sugar is cheaper than honey so it is better to do profit wise. Hmmmm! After you buy it, then use fuel to get to the apiary, the labor in mixing it, ect., Do you really save? At what cost to the bees health? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Supering in spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lloyd, Could you describe your production methods? I have always had the bees build up as strong as possible into 3 deep brood nest. As soon as or just before main honey flow hits I cut down to a single shaking most but not all the bees. The other two boxes are set behind the parent and given a cell or queen and supered for liquid honey. The parent is given two round supers at that time. Please discuss spring supering and working up the bees? I have no problems selling comb as I run out every year and could seriously move much more than I do. Please share some of your experience. Clay Crown Point, NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:01:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Screened bottoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings quote: >Using both formic acid and screen did have lowest mite >population, no treatment had highest mites but still low. >Are we talking Tmites or Vmites?There is an article in the Oct.01 >American Bee Journal detailing a study of tracheal mite levels in >Russian stock versus a domestic strain,also with formic acid and screen >bottoms. Treatments were tested against both mites separately. But the section I quoted was for varroa. Read it here: >www.hoosierbuzz.com >Domestic stock results were, 9% for both, 21% with formic acid, 69% >with screen, and 70% with no treatment. It was also found that the >Russians are more hygienic then domestic stock. -- ISBA JOURNAL. quote: >You will find most of the published figures on various German websites, the >referances I do not have to hand, but I know there was some published by >Helmut Horne about 15 or 20 years ago. Well, I haven't found *anything current* that indicates that screened bottoms alone *significantly* reduce colony infestation levels. I have heard people say, on this list, that they would use them even if they didn't work against mites. In my opinion, order for a procedure to be cost effective and worthwhile, it should have an *effect*. PB ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 22:53:55 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: ensuring that honey isn't "wasted" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience in helping get hives ready for pollination duties in Eastern Canada (N.S.) has shown that many hives having the top box in place are practically still honey bound at the mid may period. This appears to be wasteful in several ways: The honey has crystallized and is therefore difficult for the bees to use - it is not concrete but hard. It takes time to remove - by the beekeepers balancing the hives Unless lots of splits are to be made - the honey is practically lost. Robbing is a possibility, but not recommended for reasons of hygiene, frames not really being cleared etc. The honey limits the expansion of the hive if the population starts on the weak side as the number of bees/brood requiring food from the supplies in the hive is overtaken by fresh supplies e.g.. Dandelion. The pre winter condition of the hive is paramount to aid survival, and how the actual winter fares is impossible to guess with great accuracy. So, hives are either stuffed with sugar, or left with honey. Are there methods, ideas on how to limit the waste, overcome the problems whilst at the same time ensuring the colony is not left short of supplies. Here, in my neck of the woods, hives are not generally fed - the autumn allows adequate supplies, with the last harvest coming from the sunflowers. Those with weak colonies in spring have their queens culled and replaced as soon as possible. Peter Centre/west France ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:27:53 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fallen v living mites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/10/01 05:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Does anyone know what the estimated ratio is between fallen mites and living ones? If i have a natural mite fall of 20 in 24 hours, how many mites do i have in the colony? I suppose the ratio would vary between different times of the year, but any input on this would be interesting. What is the threshold number of mites where the colony starts to suffer and develop secondary problems, such as Deformed Wing Virus etc? /Mats (Stockholm, Sweden) >> Under UK conditions multiply the 24 hour drop by 100 at this time of year. X 30 in the summer. DWV cuts in at about 3,000 mites. All figures rounded and subject to local variations. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:27:54 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Deep v medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/10/01 05:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Clearly, once one has used a frame for brood, it can no longer be used in honey supers, >> Yet from many posts over a long while I gain the impression that this is very common practice in the US. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:27:51 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Long hive overwintering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/10/01 05:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << winter *could* be a problem because the bees make a choice which way for the cluster to move . >> If the entrance is at the end the brood will be near the entrance and the stores behind. The bees will have only one way to go. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:27:49 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: TBH HIVES V WAX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 22/10/01 05:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << Since a big chunk of the honey goes to comb production, there is obviously less left in the cells. >> Bees at about the age of 10 days will produce wax anyway, whether they need it or not. You may as well give them something productive to do with it and then harvest it as a valuable side product. I have seen various figures for the amount of honey used to produce wax, but 12 lb is very much on the high side. Under normal circumstances they will not be using honey for the purpose anyway, but nectar. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 15:19:43 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Samizdat=AE?= Subject: alleged usage of honey to make wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Chris Slade wrote: >I have seen various figures for >the amount of honey used to produce wax, but 12 lb [of honey to make one >lb of wax] is very much on the high side. Under normal circumstances they >will not be using honey for the purpose anyway, but nectar. I haven't been able to imagine a valid experiment to measure any ratio wax/honey. Can someone point us to a scientific report of such measurements? R - Robt Mann consultant ecologist P O Box 28878 Remuera, Auckland 1005, New Zealand (9) 524 2949 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:03:31 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Eugene Makovec Subject: Re: Bee Talks In-Reply-To: <200110221245.f9MCjlY23567@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I give a number of these talks, mostly at schools (usually 4th to 5th grade) but an occasional garden club. I insist on a full hour or more, as it's hard to cover what I want to cover in less time. With kids, I give a brief history of how mankind discovered honey,beeswax and later pollination. I spend a lot of time on "bee biology" and bring an empty hive and equipment to show them. I pass around honeycomb and foundation, and photos I've taken of the bees. I also make sure I cover differences between honeybees and wasps, especially yellowjackets. I never charge money at schools. (I consider it community service, and I enjoy it immensely.)With other groups, I take honey to sell, but I think I will begin charging the garden clubs, since my time is worth something and I know they have the money. Eugene Makovec Kirkwood, MO USA --- Ken Coyle wrote: > I am wondering of those of you that give bee talks > what information do > you include in your talks? How long do they take > and how much do you > charge per talk? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:04:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Caldeira Subject: Texas Beekeepers Convention - Nov 1-3, 2001 in College Station MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Texas Beekeepers Association's 2001 annual convention will be held in College Station, Thursday-Saturday, November 1-3, 2001. The program agenda and registration information is available at: http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/TBA2001.htm I am not a spokesperson for the organization, but the convention is open to all beekeepers and communication about this event has been less than ideal, so I scanned and posted my registration information. My apologies for the .gif format. John Caldeira Dallas, Texas, USA http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Bee Talks MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" See my article in Bee Culture earlier this year. Presentation text at my website. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary Honeybee Consultant - North American Fruit Explorers Master Beekeeper - Eastern Apiculture Society (1995) President (again) - Long Island Beekeepers Association Speaker -BOCES (schools) and LI Speaker's Association ~25 colonies(honey & wax products)>20 years experience Phone: (631)567-1936 FAX: (631)262-8053 mail: 1260 Walnut Avenue, Bohemia, NY 11716-2176 web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html web page articles: http://experts.longisland.com/beekeeping email home: lackeyray@tianca.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Re: alleged usage of honey to make wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robt Said: > I haven't been able to imagine a valid experiment to measure any > ratio wax/honey. Can someone point us to a scientific report of such > measurements? Ken Says: In Thomas D. Seeley's book "The Wisdom of the Hive - The Social Physiology of Honey Bee Colonies", he states "Beeswax production is energetically expensive, however, requiring at least 6g of sugar for every gram of wax sythesized..." While he states "at least 6g" I have heard the upper end to be 8g but do not have a reference for this. He credits a paper by Hepburn, H.R. 1986. "Honeybees and Wax: An experimental Natural History. Springer-Verlag: Berlin A web search found the reference but not the paper. Does anyone have a copy of this paper or know of its findings? Ken Haller Jr. apism@home.com Zone 5A ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 07:10:10 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Brood frames for honey production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't recall who wrote: "Clearly, once one has used a frame for brood, it can no longer be used in honey supers." Simply not so. Many operations switch brood and honey frames, a practice that is far more common than it should be. There are reasons why one would not want to do this. Someone pointed out that honey may become tainted with cocoon taste. I'm not sure if this is so, but suppose it's possible. Combs that have been used for brooding are susceptible to wax moth invasion whereas comb used strictly for honey production is of minimal interest to wax moths. The most compelling reason to segregate honey comb from brood comb is the possibility of chemical contamination. Combs that have been exposed to everything including the kitchen sink have no place in honey supers. Having said all that, I repeat that it is not uncommon for some operations to interchange frames from brood to honey supers or vice versa. At some point relative to size of the operation, the time required to keep things separate outweighs the reasons to do so. Aaron Morris - thinking separate and not equal. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:52:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Comb Honey Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clay asked me to describe how I produce comb honey. The short version, w= hich is too short, is that three ingredients are necessary for >90% succe= ss: =20 1. A queen produced in the current year 2. Keep the brood nest open so the queen has enough space to lay 3. Below the comb honey supers there should be no more than a deep and a= medium, and a single deep is best =20 Those beekeepers who are not successful at producing comb honey generally= say either "my bee swarmed" or "no matter what, I could not get them to = draw the foundation". =20 If a over-wintered queen is used, or the brood nest becomes congested wit= h nectar and pollen, the bees are likely to swarm. If there is more than= a deep and a medium below the comb honey super, the bees will pack the s= pace with so much nectar that often the flow will be over before the bees= have to draw foundation to make comb honey. =20 That is the short version and, as I said, it is too short. A more compre= hensive description was published in the May, 1999, issue of Bee Culture = and for those interested in reproduced below. =20 In 2001 I accidentally discovered another method that may be the simplest= and best of all. The description is too long to for this format, but wa= tch this winters Bee Culture for a complete article. =20 =20 PROFITABLE COMB HONEY =20 by Lloyd Spear =20 Not long ago I received a letter from a new beekeeper saying, "I really w= ant to raise comb honey, as I cannot find where to purchase it in my area= . My friend who has been a beekeeper for many years says that comb honey = production is too complicated for a newcomer. Can you recommend any simpl= e ways of producing comb honey?" =20 I refrained from comment on the advice she had been given, but proceeded = to give what I hope was advice that was more useful. I told her that in m= y opinion, newcomers to beekeeping should only produce comb honey as, nex= t to joining an active bee club, it is the best way to learn beekeeping, = and saves a lot of money otherwise spent on equipment. As George Imirie, = the nuclear scientist and Master Beekeeper, recently wrote me, "I recomme= nd that new beekeepers produce comb honey as it is guaranteed to provide = the experience necessary to become a beekeeper, rather than a beehaver." =20 In this series of articles, I will outline the relatively simple methods = both commercial beekeepers and I use to produce and sell thousands of sec= tions of comb honey. Last month I commented on the different types of com= b honey and how to prepare the equipment for producing round sections and= cut comb honey. The article concluded by advising beekeepers to treat fo= r Varroa and American Foulbrood, according to label instructions, when th= e pussy willows, red maples and skunk cabbage bloom. This month I will co= ntinue with spring and early summer management of bee hives for comb hone= y production. =20 If you can get to your beehives without becoming mired in snow or mud, tr= eatment for Varroa and American Foulbrood can be done several weeks befor= e the early blooms mentioned above. In fact, it may even be beneficial to= treat earlier as the mite populations will be lower. Regardless, in the = coldest parts of the country, the queens will have started laying in Janu= ary and a strong hive will have a good supply of young bees by early bloo= m. As comb honey can only be produced on very strong hives, the number of= bees in the hive at the time of red maple and pussy willow bloom is very= important. I call this time of the year 'spring bloom'. =20 In mid and late winter the hive will raise brood by using the pollen stor= es from the previous fall. When spring pollen starts to come in the hive = is spurred to significantly boost brood production. In order to support a= major increase in brood, there must be a good population of forager bees= to collect the pollen. These are the hives you want to produce comb hone= y. Lift the cover and look at your hives at the start of the spring bloom= . Without moving them, look down at the top of the frames to see how many= are occupied with bees. If four or more frames are covered with bees, yo= u have a strong hive for the time of year. Three frames are ok, but quest= ionable, and two or fewer frames with bees is a hive that will not amount= to anything for the current year. Later, I will discuss swarm control in= detail, but this time of year is when you first consider plans to contro= l swarming. How old are the queens in your strong hives? If you replaced = queens the previous fall, you can successfully use them for comb honey pr= oduction. If not, they almost certainly will swarm before producing comb = honey, and will need to be replaced before the major flow in your area. I= f the queens in the strong hives are more than six months old, immediatel= y order new queens. Get them marked, so you can easily tell their age. Be= certain they will arrive before your major flow, and introduce them as o= utlined below. =20 However, if your bees have overwintered in two deeps or more than three m= ediums, looking at the frames in the top box does not tell you the whole = story, as there are likely to be bees in the hive bodies below. (For an a= rticle on overwintering in a deep and a medium see the article "Comb Hone= y" in the May, 1998 issue of Bee Culture.) This is going to force you to = do some lifting. With your hive tool, lightly crack the back and each sid= e of the top hive body (if a deep) or the second hive body (if more than = 3 mediums are used). Puff a little smoke in. Tip up the top hive body(s) = just enough to look inside. Add however number of frames with bees you se= e in the lower super to those visible in the top super, to determine how = many total frames are covered with bees. If you have a hive with only thr= ee frames of bees, you might be able to make that into a productive hive = if you can find another hive with a strong five or, hopefully, six frames= with bees. From such a hive carefully lift out a frame with brood and br= ush off the bees. (A bee brush is invaluable for this, but you can gently= use a cloth if necessary and later in the spring, you can use a bunch of= grass.) Insert that frame in the hive that only has three frames of bees= , and replace it with an empty frame from that hive. =20 That single frame of brood will give the three-frame hive another 2,000 o= r more bees. If the queen is good, and that is questionable since the hiv= e is not as strong as others are, the frame should let her catch up with = the other hives. This procedure is known as equalizing your hives. Put a = rock or something on top of this hive to mark it (or better enter this in= formation in your record book) and check in another two weeks. If you do = not see four frames with bees at that time, this hive will still not be c= apable of producing comb honey this year. =20 What do you do with the hive with only two frames of bees, or the three-f= rame hive that couldn't catch up? If you want to increase the number of h= ives you have, use the drawn frames to make up nucs. Of course, you will = have to order new queens to put in those nucs. If you don't want to incre= ase your number of hives, just replace the queen in those hives. Order yo= ur new queen, and two days before she is expected remove the old queen. (= If the new queen is late so you removed the old queen 3-4 days before she= arrived, that is not a problem.) Take the cork out of the candy end of t= he queen cage, and place that end up in between two frames in the hive. H= ave the screen facing out and not buried in a comb. Leave the workers in = the cage. Spray the bees with a 1:1 sugar/water mixture, and close up the= hive. Go back in a week, and your new queen will almost certainly be out= of the cage. If she is not, release her. Take the cage out and close up = the hive without looking for the queen or for eggs. Go back in another we= ek and look at a center frame. If you see eggs or young larvae, your quee= n is ok and you need not look further. =20 If you ordered queens to replace the older queens in your strong hives, o= r to make up nucs for increasing your number of hives, you will need addi= tional bees to stock the nucs. Rather than introduce new queens to strong= hives and risk them being killed, I first introduce them to nucs and sug= gest the same to you. =20 Two days before your new queens are to arrive, take one or two frames (ho= w many doesn't make a difference) of sealed brood from each of your stron= g hives, shaking or brushing all the bees back into the hives the frames = came from. Put four of these above a queen excluder on top of one of the = strong hives. Bees from the hive below will come up through the excluder = to keep the brood warm. The next day put one frame of sealed brood and th= e shaken bees from another frame, into a nuc. The nuc should also contain= at least one frame of pollen and one frame of capped honey. Cover the nu= c, screen the entrance, and set it aside to wait for the new queen to arr= ive. The entrances are screened to prevent field bees from returning to t= heir original hive. You will have used two of the four frames to make two= nucs. If you wish, you can leave the remaining two frames (from which yo= u shook the bees into the nuc) above the excluder and make up another nuc= the next day. Otherwise, put the brood back into strong hives. =20 Introduce the queens to these nucs as outlined above. After at least thre= e days and no more than seven days, remove the screens from the entrances= . =20 If you overwintered in two deeps, about two weeks after red maples bloom = you should reverse the hive bodies. This puts the brood on the bottom and= , more important, puts lots of empty frames on the top where the queen li= kes to lay and the bees prefer to store incoming nectar and pollen. These= empty frames stimulate more brood raising. You should continue to revers= e the hive bodies every two weeks until approximately two weeks before da= ndelion bloom in your area. At this time, swarm control has to begin. =20 For successful, simple, swarm control two elements are needed. The first = is young queens. With one exception, all commercial producers of comb hon= ey that I know use current year, spring-raised, queens to produce comb ho= ney. The sole exception uses queens produced the preceding fall. For reas= ons not completely understood, older queens are more likely to swarm than= younger queens are. In fact, a 1985 study in Israel documented that quee= ns 20 months old (previous year queens) are seven times more likely to sw= arm than queens that were seven months old (fall raised queens)! The seco= nd element for successful swarm control is adequate honey storage room. T= his is somewhat difficult in comb honey production as the bees must have = limited access to drawn comb or they will not build the comb necessary fo= r comb honey. =20 Approximately two weeks before dandelion bloom, (or about May 1 in upstat= e New York and areas with a similar climate), I put two Ross Round=E2=84=A2= supers on each hive if I am going to use the hive for circular sections.= If I am going to produce cut comb, I put one Ross Round=E2=84=A2 super n= ext to the brood nest and the cut comb super on top of that. Now the bees= will not use these supers for at least another two weeks, or until dande= lion bloom and are not likely to use them for another four weeks until th= e Black Locust bloom. However, the extra space seems to reassure the bees= and I believe that putting the supers on early is a key to swarm control= . In case you are wondering, I do not use queen excluders. =20 I replace my queens in the spring, and order them for delivery so I can p= ut them in nucs about April 15. About May 8, before the dandelion bloom, = I carry my three frame nucs to my strong hives. I open the strong hives, = find the frame with the queen, and set it aside. I then take out two more= frames, preferably one of honey and one of pollen, and set those aside. = I then spray the bees in the strong hive and in the nuc with sugar water,= and put the frames from the nuc into the strong hive, keeping them toget= her. The sugar water spray confuses the bees and masks the pheromones and= the new queen and her attendants are accepted without fighting. The old = queen and the three frames can either be put into a nuc for sale, or used= to strengthen a weak hive. If sold as a nuc, the buyer should understand= the age of the queen, but she is not likely to swarm if given new founda= tion or empty, drawn foundation in a full size new hive. =20 Beginning with dandelion bloom, reduce your hive to one body if over wint= ered in two deeps. If over wintered in three mediums, reduce to two mediu= ms. If over wintered in a deep and a medium, you can leave as is, but be = certain the deep is on top of the medium, as the queen prefers to lay the= re. When reducing the brood nest, be certain the bees have at least six f= rames of brood, and seven is better. The remaining frames should contain = pollen and honey. If you have more than seven frames of brood between the= two hive bodies, place the extra brood in a nuc or start a new hive with= the extra brood from several hives. =20 Beginning with the dandelion bloom, you need to check weekly for signs of= swarming, but this will usually take less than a minute a hive. To look = for signs of swarming, tip the brood nest forward and look for swarm cell= s along the bottom of the frames. If you do not see any, it is likely tha= t there are none otherwise in the hive, and you can go on to the next hiv= e. However, if even one is seen you will have to take every frame out of = the hive, shake the bees, and destroy the queen cells. Even with young qu= eens, perhaps one in ten hives will build cells. As I am pulling out fram= es in hives where I see queen cells, I check to see how much space is ava= ilable for brood. In a nine-frame deep hive body I want seven frames to h= ave approximately 75% of the cells available for brood. This means that t= here will be brood or eggs in 75% of the area, or the cells will be empty= . If more than two frames are plugged with honey and pollen I take the ex= tra frames out and replace them with an empty frame filled with drawn cel= ls or a frame of foundation. =20 Usually hives that started queen cells will stop after cutting out the ce= lls a time or two. However, some are stubborn and my rule is that I will = cut cells three times (usually meaning three consecutive weeks). If they = build cells a fourth time, I will either break down the hive, kill the qu= een, and use the frames elsewhere, or cut out the cells once more and mov= e the hive at least 25 feet and face the entrance in a different directio= n. The move and change in entrance direction will cause the hive to lose = its work force and they will drift to nearby hives. The population will b= e sufficiently reduced that the hive will not swarm, but it also will not= be useful for production of comb honey. It is possible to have such a hi= ve fill a super or two of drawn combs, if that is your wish. As a rule, i= f I am going to see queen cells it is in June and thereafter it is unusua= l. =20 In summary, your swarm control is a young queen, preferably one raised in= the current year, weekly checking for swarm cells, and cutting out those= you find. That's it. =20 If you're thinking about shook swarming, padgening, and the Killion syste= m - but feel these are complicated, time consuming, but necessary to prev= ent swarming . . . well, they are very time consuming, require exact atte= ntion to detail, and work extremely well when done by an expert. In fact,= they can be interesting to do Richard Taylor's 1996 Comb Honey Book, has= exact descriptions of how to do the manipulations. However, the procedur= es I outlined are those used by commercial beekeepers to produce comb hon= ey. They do not have the time to spend on detailed manipulations and they= , and I, use the procedures as outlined. =20 I used to use bait sections and frames in the supers, but no longer do so= as I do not think it makes a difference. The bees will draw the comb whe= n the flow is strong enough as they need to because they have run out of = storage space adjacent to the brood frames. When I am doing my weekly che= ck for swarm cells I look down at the super frames from above to see if t= he foundation is being drawn and nectar stored. When the super next to th= e brood nest is 75% or more filled, I reverse it with the super on top, p= lacing that super next to the brood nest. When the super is moved up, I r= everse it end-to-end so that the end that was toward the front of the hiv= e is toward the back. Bees will usually first fill the comb next to the b= ack of the hive, and reversing seems to speed up filling the entire secti= on. =20 If you had a cut comb super on top of the Ross Round=E2=84=A2 super, the = cut comb super is now next to the brood nest. As there are no queen exclu= ders, you may be asking, "what will prevent the queen from coming up into= the cut comb super and raising brood"? Of course, this question applies = equally to the Ross Round=E2=84=A2 supers. =20 Management of hives with queen excluders is a technique I have never mast= ered. Whenever I have tried to use them the hive has swarmed, as I have n= ever been successful in getting the bees to draw comb and store nectar ab= ove the excluder. While I am certain this is my failure, as many beekeepe= rs successfully use them, I also know that many beekeepers feel that quee= n excluders are also "honey excluders". Fortunately, they are not necessa= ry. =20 In over 20 years of using Ross Round=E2=84=A2 supers, I have very, very s= eldom had a queen destroy sections by laying eggs in them. Moreover, I ha= ve asked dozens of other beekeepers and their experience is the same. The= most "damage" there has ever been is a few drone brood in a single row o= f cells immediately above the brood nest. And by a few, I mean less than = a dozen! Something about all the plastic and the confined areas does not = appeal to the queen and she will not lay in Ross Round=E2=84=A2 supers. H= owever, in normal circumstances queens will readily lay in cut comb super= s, effectively ruining many sections. =20 I believe Eugene Killion, a great comb honey producer from Illinois, firs= t wrote of the best way to prevent queens from laying in cut comb supers.= It is the essence of simplicity. First, have the bees complete at least = 75% of a Ross Round=E2=84=A2 super, then put the cut comb super below the= Ross Round=E2=84=A2 super. While the bees are drawing the comb and depos= iting nectar in the Ross Round=E2=84=A2 super, they are also forming a ri= ng of nectar and pollen around the brood nest. By the time the Ross Round= =E2=84=A2 super is 75% or so filled, the bees will have a space of about = 2" on top of the brood nest filled with sealed honey and nectar. For reas= ons that are not clear, the queen does not cross that space, although the= re is a cut comb super above which would be ideal (from her viewpoint) fo= r laying eggs. =20 It is difficult to give very precise advice about whether more supers sho= uld be added after the initial two, as flows vary widely across the count= ry. If you know you should have at least two weeks of flow remaining when= your first super is 75% full, I would add another super, placing it on t= op of the super that is 75% full. When the super next to the brood nest i= s 75% full move it up and place the third super next to the brood nest. I= f you still have two weeks of flow remaining, add another super to the to= p. If you are not certain how much flow to expect after your first super = is 75% full, my suggestion is to still add another super. The worst thing= that can happen is that the super won't be needed and you can keep it fo= r next year. That is far better than missing a full super of honey becaus= e you didn't have enough equipment. =20 Carefully watch the supers you have moved up, and remove them as soon as = they are fully capped. To determine if they are fully capped, look at the= combs from the top, then tip up the super and look from the bottom. Remo= ve when 95% or better are capped, as leaving the supers on the hive longe= r will cause the cappings to darken from the bees constantly walking on t= hem...bees have dirty feet! =20 With a strong hive, beekeepers can produce at least two supers of comb ho= ney in most areas of the country. Two Ross Round supers have only about 3= 6 pounds of honey, and a single cut comb super will have between 28-35 po= unds of honey (depending on the depth of the super). While a great deal o= f nectar is required to make the wax for the combs, the equivalent for tw= o supers is less than five pounds of honey. I am not in a good honey prod= ucing area, and always average three Ross Round=E2=84=A2 supers a hive, o= r one Ross Round super and one of cut comb. Occasionally one of my hives = will fill five or even six Ross Round supers, but that is unusual. In bet= ter honey producing areas, considerably higher averages are common. For e= xample, Ray Nicholson of Wadena, Minnesota has been producing comb honey = for 60 years and I understand that in some years his hives will average 1= 44 circular sections. In 1998, he had one hive produce 216 sections! =20 The next article will discuss harvesting, packaging and marketing the sec= tions and preparing your hives for winter. =20 Lloyd Spear is a round comb honey producer living in up-state New York. A= nd yes, he manufactures Ross Round Supers. =20 =20 =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:35:42 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Comb Honey Production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, A simple method of producing comb honey is in the book "Fifty years among the bees" by Dr. C.C. Miller. Produce comb honey over queenless bees. No pollen in comb as queenless bees do not normally bring in pollen. No swarming as queenless bees do not swarm. I have used the method on several ocassions with huge success. Extra work is involved but everytime I have used the method beautiful comb honey was produced. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:41:04 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: alleged usage of honey to make wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robet Mann writes: <> I saw something on one of the bee lists about this recently. I don't know the reference, but apparently someone (I think it was Huber) confined bees and fed them artificially, and then weighed the amount of comb produced. This led him to the conclusion that it took about 6lb of honey to make 1 lb. of comb, though he thought it might sometimes take a bit less. I don't know where the higher estimates come from. It's obviously a very artificial situation, and one might wonder whether the same ratio would apply in real life, but like you, I have problems in imagining how else to do it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 17:04:21 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit huestis said: >> Clearly, once one has used a frame for brood, it can no longer be used >> in honey supers > Why Not? The only reason for this is because the beekeeper uses > chemicals in the hive which will end up in the honey, ect.. Exactly. Aren't most beekeepers are forced to use at least menthol? I guess you don't use any chems or meds. (A sign of strong character.) Even if one used medications only once in any one brood chamber, those combs would be "contaminated" in my book. > If no chemicals are used then combs can be utilized anywhere at any time. Very true, but wow, you must have a very steady hand when uncapping to be able to uncap without getting old brood-comb wax in with your fresh cappings! > Why is it the the majority of beekeepers (not all) seem to > feed their bees every year with syrup for wintering? > If you are feeding, was the honey you harvested truely surplus? > Would it not be easier just to move frames of honey into the brood > chambers? > After all it is what bees eat. But bees eat nectar, rather than honey. They certainly store honey for overwintering, but to eat the honey, they require significant water. Honey is to nectar as beef jerky is to a home-cooked meal. The base assumption in fall/spring feedings of sugar syrup is that the bees will store it in comb, filling in unused spaces in the brood chamber as they see fit, and will not have time or warm enough days to evaporate it down to honey or cap it over. The stores are thus "more useful", in that less (or no) water is required to "wash it down". One might wonder why bees store highly-concentrated honey if it is not as "ready to eat" as nectar (or sugar syrup) is. I can only offer that honey requires less total space, less comb, and "keeps better" (does not ferment) than nectar. My own rationale in fall feeding is to provide some insurance against starvation. I'd rather feed in the fall than feed in an "emergency" during a cold spring. > Some say sugar is cheaper than honey so it is better to do profit wise. > Hmmmm! After you buy it, then use fuel to get to the apiary, the labor > in mixing it, ect., Do you really save? At what cost to the bees health? This is a good point - what would happen if one removed ALL honey from a hive in an area with no fall nectar of any significance, and fed the heck out of it in August and September? Has anyone tried this? I can't imagine that either sugar water or HFCS provides the "balanced diet" that bees really need. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:54:57 +0100 Reply-To: pdillon@club-internet.fr Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Organization: HOME Subject: Cubital Index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, Could anybody please tell me where it is possible to obtain a Ruttner micro metric scale that will fit in to the eyepiece of my stereo - microscope. Hence enabling the ease of measuring the C.I. of bee wings. I know that it exists; "printed" on a piece of plastic. Thanks Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:45:24 +0200 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Commentos to Long hives arguments by Lloyd MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hallo Lloyd! I would like to comment some of your nots concerning bee behavioiur. You take for granted that the bees naturally only store honey upwards. But this is certainly is not true. If you have hive desighns where the combs are set side by side and you put a vertical queen excluder behing this combs and ad another row of combs in such a way that you have them in line with the first row directed to the entrance, than the bees will without doubt use the "backward" honey room with the same efficiency as the "above" honey room. 30 years ago this was a common argument against the Golz-hive I am using. However it was shown that this was proven to be wrong and thus not fact. By the way this was shown quite early by the german beekeper Gerstung when studying optimal comb dimensions for the desighn of his bee hive between 1890 and 1910. Secondly the problem with the "long hive" system is, that the have arranged the combs parallel to the entrance and not at 90 degress as is found normally in the Langstroth hive. If you desighn a bee hive in such a way that you have the frames accoring the the Langstoth desigh but uprigt, than a vertical queen excluter and the next row behing again uprigt, than you come to a desigh that was used for the Golz hive type. By this desigh you have access to each comb without moving any super and the bees have good acces to the honey room in the back. I do have experience with such bee hive type for over 27 years, and I have changed all my hives to that desighn, since it is verey convenient at least for a sideliner (up to 30 hives). Last comment: Bees do move laterally during winter time following the direction of needed food. Therefore again: That they move only upwards has proven to be not correct. However one hase to garantee that they find enough food in that direction. This is achieved in that way that the entrance is set to one side of the hive over the distance of about 10 frames. In that way the atum brood is near this entrance and the honey for overwintering is deposited to the side with no brood activiy and no entrance (less O2 availability?). Thus in winter the bees will follow the stored food moving in that direction. If you do not set the entrance to one side than the cluster can be in the middle of the combs and the bees have to choose one direction which could be desasterous if half of the stored food is found in the other side of the hive. Therefore one has to "guide" the bees by the correct set up for overwintering. In the long hive desighn the bees just move backwards, here is the situation less critical but the bees still move backwards when the first combs are empty. So the handling of HEAVY supers is not needed for easy beekeeping, especially if you do it as a side liner with problems of handling heavy weights. Such a desigh might - however -not appeal for a commercial apiary with thousands of hives, however it might be the ideal bee hive for many interested in a hive desighn with easy handling. Thus we come back to the thread how to avoid handling of heavy supers. There are ways of avoiding it, however with new hive desighn. Ahlert ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:23:43 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "From the Gussow's of Tucson,Arizona - Don't worry it's a dry heat!" Subject: Re: Supering in spring In-Reply-To: <200110221242.f9MCgiY23398@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all and Lloyd : I have a question as I have been out of beekeeping and am considered to be a Newbee around Tucson. I currently have one beehive that is on 4.9 foundation and the cut-out comb from the swarm this summer. They are currently in 4 deeps and a western. They have all there needs taken care of at the present and have come off a feeding period that has made them strong for the Fall honey flow that is beginning here. Since I live in the desert and the 2 flows here are more like explosions I must be far more ready to plan for them than that of a long and lingering one found in the mid-west from where I had more experience as I am sure all on this list are use to. By the way I will be splitting the above questioned hive into two and I will keep three deeps for brood and pollen and honey to keep them in tune for the laps of supplies between flows. A good estimate of a good year is five Western supers of surplus honey here in Tucson or anywhere else. My question is this: While a useful tool for establishing a hive deeps take almost all of a month to draw and the use of westerns are more useful for surplus honey. While the flow continues until mid to late November, an estimate at present, I a trying to draw out as much comb as I can for the next season. The deeps are not too much of a bother as there is almost always a source of pollen and some nectar the year round. The Westerns however are another story as they are measured to be 2/3's of a deep to begin with. I need the westerns for honey production. There fore how can I get the most out of the Western supers next year? Should I mix foundation and drawn out comb together to allow for expansion into more finished supers? Or should I just place a complete foundation Western super and let them turn it into comb? Respectfully Submitted Harvey In Tucson! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:30:16 +0100 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Alan Riach Subject: Honey to wax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The figure I was taught was 5.5 to 6.5 lb of honey to make 1 lb of wax, with the source quoted as Huber (the famous blind Swiss beekeeper-over 200 yrs ago) , confirmed by Simmins (1886) Since honey is only about 80% sugar this would equal about 4.8 lb of sugar and since nectar (in the UK anyway) is often only 30% sugar it would require 18 lb of raw nectar for a lb of wax. 1 lb of wax will produce about 500 square inches of foundation (note - not drawn) I seem to also remember a figure of 10,000 bees taking 3 days to produce a pound of wax, at 1/2 million wax scales per pound. However, the point is well made that young bees "want" to produce wax so allowing some wax production is probably a good thing. Alan Riach Bathgate,Edinburgh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:02:16 +0200 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Sugar or honey In-Reply-To: <200110240338.f9O3cPY18990@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Jim wrote: >This is a good point - what would happen if one removed ALL honey from a >hive in an area with no fall nectar of any significance, and fed the heck out >of it in August and September? Has anyone tried this? I can't imagine that >either sugar water or HFCS provides the "balanced diet" that bees really need. I do this every fall. So do most beekeepers here in Sweden. Let me explain our climate to go with this: The main nectar flow usually ends around July 15:th, but nectar is available until the end of August. In early September, the temperatures will be around 15 degrees Celsius (59 F). Right now, temperatures are around +5 Celsius (41 F). Temperatures will be between -10 and +5 Celsius (14-40 F) until March, when it gets warmer again. The dandelions start blooming around the beginning of May, and that is usually the start of the nectar flow. Cleansing flights usually happen around the end of February. Somewhere between August 20:th and September 10:th, all supers are removed. It is also common to remove any frames in the brood boxes that have honey on them and replace them with empty frames with comb. Immediately after removing all the honey, the colonies are fed with sugar syrup, 40% water and 60% ordinary sugar. The amount of sugar needed to get through winter varies depending on what part of the country you live and what race of bees you have. Myself, living near Stockholm (get your maps out and look for Sweden, people) and keeping carnolian bees, need to feed them approximately 16 kilograms (35 pounds) of sugar. I keep around 20 colonies and have never lost a colony over the winter, so this works perfectly. I do not medicate the colonies at all, but varroa has arrived this summer, so i will have to find ways to keep that under control. An other method (called the norwegian wintering) is to shake the bees into brood boxes with foundation only before feeding sugar syrup like described above. The bees will build beautiful fresh comb for the winter and those who use that method claim it keeps the bees healthy. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:02:47 +0200 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Liquid honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear fellow beekeepers, can you please help me out with this question, that has haunted me since i started beekeeping: In Sweden, all honey is sold in chrystallized form. After extraction, the honey is poured into plastic drums and seeded with a small amount of chrystallized honey and it then chrystallizes within a week or two. It is then re-heated to approximately 35 degreed Celsius (95 F) for 24 hours, so it reaches a semi-liquid state before it is poured into jars, where it returns to it's chrystallized state. This is the way most beekeepers here do it. Some just seed and put the honey into jars right away. Using any of these techniques, you get very smooth, non-liquid honey that resembles butter in its consistency. Ever since i started beekeeping, i have been asked if i could deliver liquid honey. I have asked around and always been told that the nectars of our flowers have a structure that makes liquid honey impossible. Now, i have decided find out for sure. If you can get liquid honey from clover, dendelions or raspberry nectar in the states, why can't i. Do you heat your honey to liquify it? Am i missing a parameter that i haven't thought about? Please help. Sincerely Mats Andersson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:47:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: feeding sugar syrup MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim said "what would happen if one removed ALL honey from a hive in an area with no fall nectar of any significance, and fed the heck= out of it in August and September? Has anyone tried this? I can't imagine t= hat either sugar water or HFCS provides the "balanced diet" that bees really = need." Removing all honey from a hive and then feeding either sugar syrup or HFC= S is, in fact, a common practice in Europe and is not all that uncommon i= n the US and Canada. Moreover, either seems to meet all the nutritional = needs of adult bees. =20 In Europe this is done primarily because of the steep differences between= honey prices and sugar syrup. Their honey prices are very high because = their consumers and packers are "educated" to reject the imported honeys = that have been so over-processed that they are only sweet...with no honey= taste. (They laugh at the honey at the honey from Argentina and China t= hat we accept so readily.) Their sugar prices are also very low because = of high world production...and a lack of subsidies that keep our own suga= r prices approximately 2X world prices. Those taking all honey and feeding syrup in the US and Canada do so becau= se of one of two reasons: 1. They can sell all their honey at retail prices, so they are in the sa= me situation as the Europeans. An example is the large Canadian producer= just outside of Montreal...perhaps someone can help me with their name? =20 2. Studies have shown that syrup is better than honey as a winter food. = This is the situation with the Diehaults (sp?) in Michigan. I understan= d this is because syrup doesn't contain the "ash" content of honey...but = I don't really understand what that means. Again, perhaps someone else c= an help on this one. So, the good news is beekeepers can feed syrup to their hearts (and walle= ts) content, without danger of harming their bees. Lloyd =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:53:44 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony Morgan Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8r=2DTr=F8ndelag?= University College Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit James Fischer wrote: > ..... what would happen if one removed ALL honey from a > hive in an area with no fall nectar of any significance, and fed the heck out > of it in August and September? Has anyone tried this? I can't imagine that > either sugar water or HFCS provides the "balanced diet" that bees really need. Here in mid-Norway (close to Trondheim) the local bees are carniolan (no ferals). We have two major flows: -- wild raspberry + summer flowers in June/July -- heather in August. Whilst we do not have a harsh winter it is very long - October to April plus minus a month either end. It is believed that heather honey is not a good food source for over wintering as it contains a relatively high proportion of non-digestibles that need to be excreted -- the result being either dead bees (outside the hive) or a messed up hive with a strong probability of sickness. Unless late August is extremely warm there will be no brood by the middle of September. Local beekeepers, without exception, take ALL the heather honey from the hives (including from the brood chamber) in September, reduce the hive to one box and feed sugar syrup (mix: 5kg sugar to 3 litres water), the usual amount per hive would be in the region of 15kg of sugar. It is also believed that the bees require winter food more for energy (warmth) than anything else so that lack of vitamins and trace elements is not a big problem. Certainly there are no indications that this use of sugar gives problems with over wintering. Very few hives take as much as 18kg of sugar. Hive populations are low - one box for over wintering with maybe as few as 8 frames (plus insulation spacers). Carniolans are renowned for being economical with winter food and very often there is a significant amount still unused in the spring. Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 07:29:55 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > This is a good point - what would happen if one removed ALL honey from a > hive in an area with no fall nectar of any significance, and fed the heck out > of it in August and September? Has anyone tried this? I can't imagine that > either sugar water or HFCS provides the "balanced diet" that bees really need. For over wintering, British scientists found that the best over wintering feed was white sugar syrup which was not boiled and had no additives. HFCS was better than honey for over wintering. The reason is related to dysentery and keeping the bees clean, so they do not have to go on cleansing flights in mid-winter, when there may be no opportunity. The bee losses were not great, as I recall, using honey to overwintering. Less than 15%, so the losses would not be noticeable, but it would make a difference in the rate of spring buildup. In warmer climates, you will still get bee losses but not colony losses because the bees can fly and void in mid-winter. There are several honeys that can lead to winter colony loss in the North because they have high particulate content, crystallize quickly or ferment. Honeydew is classic. I try to keep fall honey out of my hives. The fall honey I pull is usually solid by about now or in November. Most of my summer honey is still liquid in the spring. I do not feed sugar syrup but overwinter on the summer honey. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Cubital Index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Dillon asked: > Could anybody please tell me where it is possible to obtain > a Ruttner micro metric scale that will fit in to the eyepiece of > my stereo - microscope. Here's a few companies that sell micrometer scale inserts. I'd guess that specialized versions might be "special order". http://www.tri-esssciences.com/Microscope%20Accessories.htm#MICROMETER http://www.emsdiasum.com/ems/materials/tools.html jim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Kyle Lewis Subject: Re: Liquid honey Dear Mats and fellow beekeepers, The crystallized honey you describe is what we call "creamed honey". Technical folks call it "honey fondant". I love it. Some beekeepers here sell it as their highest quality product. And it is not messy to spread like liquid honey. To americans, crystallized honey means granulated honey; it has large crystals that are not creamy in texture. For some honeys to remain liquid for long periods, they must be heated to 140 F (60 C) to 160 F (71 C). This destroys any existing tiny crystals, and also pasteurizes the honey, which is useful if it has relatively high water content. Needless to say, this seriously degrades the quality of the honey. You may be able to sell freshly extracted liquid honey to customers who request it. Try storing some liquid honey. You can then tell your customers how long it takes to granulate. Maybe they will eat it faster and then buy creamed honey. :) If rape (canola) is a significant nectar source, that may cause rapid granulation. Americans desire liquid honey for one reason - TRADITION! Most people are very traditional and unadventurous about food. I have a question for you, Mats, and for Tony in Norway. Do you use wood hives or styrofoam insulated hives? I can hardly believe your bees can survive the winter on just 16 kg of sugar. Cheers, Kyle Lewis Wyoming USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:18:05 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Mats question-liquid honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mats told us that honey sold in Sweden is almost solely what we could cal= l "creamed", with the consistency of butter, and asks how we produce liqu= id honey. Mats, if our honey (in this part of the United States) were not treated i= t would be "hard as a rock" by October/November, particularly if stored i= n unheated rooms. We call this crystallized. The honey that is sold in = Sweden, Denmark, and many other European countries is what we call "cream= ed", which is an intermediate form of crystallization. Such honey is not= very popular in the United States, but has a very loyal following among = those who use it. To keep honey liquid one must do two things: 1. Remove all foreign solids. 2. Dissolve any crystals that may have all ready formed. When carried to an extreme, producers do this by heating honey to 180 deg= rees (82 C) and forcing the honey through very fine filters with pumps. = This is practiced by some packers in the US and by producers in countries= such as Argentina and China. The result is honey without any solids (in= cluding pollen) and honey without any taste! In the worse cases, the hon= ey can even have a "burnt" taste. However, this honey will not granulate= for 2-3 years, which is what is desired by stores and packers. More responsible producers and packers in the US will settle for honey th= at will not granulate for 6-9 months, so process the honey in a way that = removes "most but not all" solids and crystals. My procedure is to heat = the honey to 120 degrees and then strain it (by gravity) through material= that is similar to that used for making curtains. That removes all larg= e solids, but not all the pollen. Then I heat it (in a double walled tan= k with water on the outside, so that no heat is applied directly to the h= oney) to 135 degrees for just 15 minutes. (Then I remove the hot water a= nd immediately replace it with cold water.) That will dissolve most of t= he crystals. My honey will stay liquid in a room heated to roughly 65 degrees (18 C) u= ntil about the following May/June. Hopefully, by then it is sold. If no= t, it will crystallize and needs to be re-heated to about 100 degrees (38= C) to re-liquefy. I have always been told that Liquid honey will not sell in Sweden. Perha= ps you will prove people wrong. =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 19:42:15 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bee talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 24/10/01 05:08:43 GMT Daylight Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << I am wondering of those of you that give bee talks > what information do > you include in your talks? How long do they take > and how much do you > charge per talk? >> I don't usually give talks, but I have had my arm twisted to give one to the Dorchester Horticultural Society next March. They have asked for an hour. I have said that depends on how many questions they ask. It may be 20 mins or 2 hours depending on the degree of interest. I am thinking of dividing it into 3 parts. What bees do for them. What they can do for the bees; and then Bring on the Dancing Girls. I shall explain simply the von Frisch version of the bee dances and then get some of them on their feet enacting them. As I am told the average age is about 80 I think the exercise will be necessary as the brain can absorb no more than the backside. What I shall NOT do is show colour slides. They are too soporific. I won't charge them as this is my first time and it is my learning curve, but I shall suggest a donation of £25 to the Troy Trust a registered charity that supports Bees for Development, which supports beekeepers in developing countries. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:24:11 +1200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Samizdat=AE?= Subject: Re: Honey to wax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alan Riach wrote: > the point is well made that young bees "want" to produce wax so >allowing some wax production is probably a good thing. I have long felt this is an issue of not only 'mass flow' but also aesthetics for the bees. The top-bar hive allows them to build freehand combs, which are among the more impressive creations of the animal kingdom, whereas the rectangular frame with foundation supplied leaves them less scope for their marvellous architecture, and once made is subject only to capping and repairs between centrifugings as an application for their wax secretion. The answers so far to my question about alleged wax/honey ratios have been less than convincing. Energy densities of the two materials are not a sufficient basis to justify any number, because other variables may affect the actual ratio. The one expt outlined is so artificial that it hardly bears on the real-life options of a colony. I remain unsuccessful in imagining a scientific basis for these alleged ratios. Therefore I wonder whether, in some situations at least, the top-bar hive isn't under-rated. It may well fail to produce as much honey for export - all else being equal - tho' this remains (so far as we have yet seen) unproven; but in view of the unrivalled merits of beeswax for several purposes this difference is not all loss (or production forgone); and may not the top-bar hive have as-yet undetected merit for bee health? I mean no disrespect for beekeepers who use the production system based on centrifuging and re-installing 'wets'. But, at least for hobby bkprs not oriented to maximising honey production, the top-bar hive would seem to offer advantages, no? R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 15:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: adamf@panix.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adamf@PANIX.COM Subject: USA: Certified Organic Honey? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Question: I have received information from a store stating that honey they sell is certified organic and thus can have "Organic" on it's label. Here is the info: "Our Honey is certified organic by the Organic Crop Improvement Association (OCIA). Their rules state: 'Apiaries must not be located within 2 miles of garbage dumps, sanitary landfills,,.......flowering agricultural crops which have been sprayed with non-OCIA accepted pesticides...'" Can anyone corroborate this for me please? Thanks, Adam -- Adam Finkelstein adamf@panix.com http://www.ibiblio.org/bees/adamf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 21:33:07 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rick Green Subject: Re: Bee talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I give 100+ presentations a year and find it to be a lucrative part of my bee business. Slides, bee, and equipment are the corner stones of my approach. Audiences of 30 or more are charged extra Contact me at: Rick Green 8 Hickory Grove Lane Ballston Lake, NY 12019 (518) 384-2539 Gothoney@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:27:09 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: USA: Certified Organic Honey? Comments: To: adamf@panix.com In-Reply-To: <200110250108.f9P18IY28815@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The USA Federal Organic Standards laws still have not been written as of this Date. Nor has Federal Register comment been taken yet for the final rulemaking. This past spring a federal register comment period was due out but it was delayed until this fall in Sep/OCt which is now past. I called the NHB a couple of days ago and also the AMS in Washington DC on the Organic Standards rule making and as to when the Federal register is due out for public comments. I was told the subject matter will come up at the next NHB meeting and in the mean time I now watch Washington DC weekly/monthly looking for the Federal register to come out for comments for the final rule making. As of yet, everything is in Limbo! I myself am holding out for -zero tolerance- for anything in the way of treatments now that our first crop is in and we are expecting to double that next year. Hope this helps you with info. Regards, Dee A. Lusby Commercial Beekeeper Arizona Rangeland Honey Tucson, Arizona 1-520-748-0542 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:57:30 +0200 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Anthony Morgan Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F8r=2DTr=F8ndelag?= University College Subject: Re: Winter stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kyle Lewis wrote: > > I have a question for you, Mats, and for Tony in Norway. Do you use wood > hives or styrofoam insulated hives? I can hardly believe your bees can > survive the winter on just 16 kg of sugar. To answer in reverse order: The amount of winter stores needed should be seen in relation to the colony size. I am often amazed at the size of colonies referred to by american beekeepers, ours by comparison are very small. We seldom need more than one brood chamber and rarely use more than one honey super. Why there is this difference I cannot say (climate + a local strain of bee?). As I said in my post a typical hive overwinters on 8 frames (in a standard 10 frame box the difference made up with insulated spacers). Mats (?) referred to the Norwegian method whereby the bees are fed sugar syrup after being shaken onto frames of foundation, this is I believe is not uncommon further south, but here it is normal to feed on frames of clean drawn comb (ie. not old dark comb) with at most a couple of frames of foundation. Local wisdom is that it is too cold for the production of large quantities of wax and also that forcing the bees to try to produce large quantites of wax weakens the hive for overwintering. A proportion of foundation is normally put in when expanding the hive in the spring. As I wrote our bees are carniolans, known to be economical with winter stores and there is often a need to remove food frames in the spring! The oldest dark combs are relegated for use in the honey super for the collection of heather honey (the cocoon remains etc. strengthen the combs so that they can withstand the honey loosening process and the high extraction forces needed for heather honey). A proportion of these dark combs are culled every autumn. My hives all have a wooden floor and roof (telescoping), mostly homebuilt. For boxes I use styrofoam for overwintering and for all honey supers (to save weight), however in the spring I add a double walled (insulation between the walls) wooden box on top of the styrofoam box and after the queen is established in the top box the boxes are reversed and a queen excluder put in between them. In september when taking the heather honey from the (wooden) brood chamber the bees are shaken into the styrofoam box they will overwinter in and fed immediately. The reason for this procedure is that we use a hive carrier that is based upon a scissors action that is somewhat rough on the brood box and I don't think that styrofoam boxes would take the pressure or the wear and tear (I could be wrong). We mostly use some form of screen floor (most are not true OMFs) and top insulation all the year round, a few diehards still swapping to solid floors just for the winter. I usually staple a polythene sheet around the sides and along the back of the hive stands as protection against the North winds but most locals don't bother. The top insulation is 2 inches of styrofoam on top of a heavyweight cloth top cover with a cover board on top of that to support the roof and to take the pressure of the straps we use when migrating to the coastal heather moors. Those that swap to solid floors for the winter also swap to permeable top insulation at the same time. I might add that our boxes are square and of a single standard size (as are the frames) and are therefore totally interchangeable, the terms brood box and super merely describe what they are being used for. Sorry to be so longwinded, I hope it all makes sense! Tony -- Anthony N Morgan, Førsteamanuensis Institutt for Elektroteknikk Høgskolen i Sør-Trøndelag N-7005 Trondheim, Norway anthony@iet.hist.no Tlf. 73 55 96 04 Fax. 73 55 95 81 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:29:20 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Winter stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anthony Morgan writes: >I am often amazed at the size of colonies referred to by american >beekeepers, ours by comparison are very small. We seldom need more than >one brood chamber and rarely use more than one honey super. Why there is >this difference I cannot say (climate + a local strain of bee?). So am I, and not only this, but American friends can't understand why I use such 'weak' colonies. I assume that the reason is climatic; imported American bees don't have a good track record in the UK, with most of the few people to have tried them reporting that they produced loads of bees and no honey. Given the climatic range in North America, this seems surprising; can anyone pin the reason down a bit closer? Regards, Robert Brenchley, Birmingham, UK. RSBrenchley@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:08:01 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: long hives and top-bar hives In-Reply-To: <200110221501.f9MF1iY29777@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is very similar to the configuration of the Golz hive described by Ahlert. I can seen bees being less inclined to move towards the back of a long hive in the cold of the winter but I can see them being more willing to move sideways. Waldemar >>But to a beekeeper with some experience, a long hive can be fun. For ins= tance, this past spring, in Kansas, I saw a beekeeper running a two-queen= long hive for comb honey production. He had designed two 10-frame units= that sat side by side, with a queen excluder in place of a wall. Above,= with access from each 10-frame unit, were regular Ross Round supers. To= prevent the queens from going up to the supers and then down the "other = side", he also had a queen excluder under the Ross Round supers. He clai= med tremendous production, but it was too early in the season (first week= of June) for me to see the results. This sounds as if it would work. E= ach queen had 10 frames for brood, which is more than enough, and the wor= kers could follow their natural tendency to move up with stores. ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: hive populations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert writes, "American friends can't understand why I use such 'weak' colonies. I assume that the reason is climatic; imported American bees don't have a good track record in the UK, with most of the = few people to have tried them reporting that they produced loads of bees and = no honey. Given the climatic range in North America, this seems surprising; = can anyone pin the reason down a bit closer?" I have been fortunate to spend a reasonable amount of time in England dur= ing the past 30 years, so perhaps I can add something. With the possible exception of the area immediately around Seattle, Washi= ngton (the northwest portion of our country, just below Canada), I do not= believe there is a portion of our country with a climate consistently si= milar to your conditions. As I understand it, the climate in England, an= d much of northern Europe, is primarily effected by the combination of th= e Gulf Stream and prevailing winds blowing west to east. This leads to c= onditions that, on average, are considerably more wet and with temperatur= es that do not have the extremes of our own. =20 While a portion of our West Coast states enjoy the more even temperatures= that prevail in Northern Europe, primarily because of the winds blowing = from the Pacific, our Rocky Mountains quickly disrupt the wind pattern an= d, as you know, most of the US is East of the Rocky Mountains. So, in "most" of the US our climate is not moderated by any nearby large = body of water and we get very hot summers and very cold winters. (As a s= tudent of history, I am continually impressed by what a shock this was to= our early European settlers.) As honey bees are not native to the US, o= ur early settlers experimented with several strains before largely settli= ng on Italians, which thrive in our very hot summers and collect huge amo= unts of nectar. Only in the past 20-30 years have Americans selected and= developed Carnolian strains that can collect equal amounts of nectar and= overcome the Italian tendency to over-winter with brood and accompanying= huge clusters. As to the benefits of huge amounts of bees, in the early 20th century a n= umber of researchers documented that hives of 40,000-50,000 bees would no= t just collect double the amount of honey of a hive with 20,000-25,000 be= es, but triple or quadruple! I forget the exact reasons but it has to be= with an almost finite number of bees being required for nurses, guards, = etc. with all remaining bees being available for foraging. So, to make n= umbers up, 5,000 bees might be needed as nurses, etc. in a hive of either= 20,000 or 40,000 bees. This means with the small hive only 15,000 are a= vailable for foraging while 35,000 are available in the larger hive. As I understand it, the English climate (and population relative to land = size) does not encourage the same kind of summer surge we get here in the= US, where bloom just explodes following a short spring. Thus, a hive wi= th a large population of foragers really has not enough nectar to collect= so the bees just sit around and eat...or more accurately, just collect e= nough nectar to feed themselves and not accumulate stores for the winter.= American beekeepers visiting England for the first time are always impr= essed at how dark your bees are compared to our own. I have been buying = Carnolian queens for more than 20 years, and still my bees, on average, a= re not as dark as the average bees I have seen in England. I believe tha= t is due to the Italian influence, of which we have a lot. I hope this helps. =20 =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:00:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: Winter stores MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Robert and All, > American bees don't have a good track record in the UK, with most of the few people to have tried them reporting that they produced loads of bees and no honey. Given the climatic range in North America, this seems surprising; can anyone pin the reason down a bit closer? Lack of floral source and weather conditions not being right for the production of nectar are two reasons which come to mind right off the bat. Strong hives of bees forage out farther which is one reason why strong hives produce more honey than weak. In yards I looked at yesterday the strongest hives were still bringing in nectar. The air was full of bees coming and going at those hives while the weaker hives were doing nothing. The work of Dr. C.L. Farrar showed that one strong hive will outproduce easily two weak hives. New beekeepers tend to split their hives to small to be able to take advantage of the spring honey flow or do so much swarm control they get a small honey crop BUT no swarming. Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:28:46 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: Bee talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gave 5 lectures last week training the folks that teach. I only do this for one week each year. Listening to the queens sing, Italians and Russian, was one of greatest interest this year. Handling drones was one of the other interests. Blue honey and all the local Florida honeys. The harmonics of the sounds of the wings in flight to the connecting hocks and shattered wing stars of older bees wings. Pictures of local wild outside the tree beehives and location for viewing them. If they want honey that has not been heated above 100degrees then you talk money. Getting the observation hives and different kinds of queens (25) in display cases along with Mason bees, yellow jackets, bumble bees, ect. Fruit and vegetables examples of the reason for the bees. Blueberry to a 22 to 26 seed counts, seedless water melon, citrus of seedless and regular varieties. This is not a complete list by any means and I normally have help for the lectures. Your age of the audience is important and to the bee dance and dielectric antennas. Michael Housel Orlando ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Wholesale All this good advice I'm getting from this board is posing a problem. My bees are so productive that I've got too much honey to sell all of it at the Farmers Market and local health food stores. Where do commerical beekeepers send their honey to in the California area? Thanks Tim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:48:59 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Deep vs medium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I, too, have used colored Thumb Tacks to identify frames for many years. So simple! George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 21:44:42 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wholesale Prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I totally agree with Garry Libby. For some odd reason, beekeepers just don't know HOW TO SELL and think they have to beat the grocery store price. I sell $1000+ (yes, a THOUSAND DOLLARS) per day at my county Fair, and my 1 pound jar goes for $4.00. My honey is not Chinese, heavily heated or heavily filtered. It is LOCAL, it is 100% AMERICAN, and I have 'one stop shopping", because I sell several different kinds of honey, light and dark, comb honey, creamed honey, honey stix, candles, and gift packs of assorted honeys. But the MAIN reason for my sales is that I am not a grocery store clerk, but a beeKEEPER who can tell customers all the wonderful things about bees and honey, and DISCUSS the marked queen and her bees in the OBSERVATION HIVE that is a MUST to sell honey. Finally, don't sell honey! Sell YOURSELF and YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT BEES AND HONEY! George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 20:00:35 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: response to feeding sugar syrup to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I cannot disagree more than the absurd idea that feeding bees sugar = .syrup is better than honey.First of all sugar is devoid of all = nutrient, be it minerals,vitamins, or enzyme. Second the ash content of = sugar after it is digested and assimilated is 3.2 on the PH scale, very = acidic, when you compare bees blood to be 7.2 on the PH scale, much like = the human blood. Given the continuous use of sugar syrup will eventually = lower the immune system of the bees,and be subjected to all kinds of = disease,and much of are problem arises from this very fact. Honey on the = other hand after it has been digested and assimilated, and i under score = digested and assimilated,because their is a big difference in the PH = scale before and after digesting the honey, is 7.8 to 8.5 depending on = the type of honey., with all the nutrient the bees should have to = survive the winter george c seferiadis beekeeper ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:29:34 +0200 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Mats question-liquid honey In-Reply-To: <200110241734.f9OHYqY13253@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd, thanks for describing the process of making liquid honey. I will try this on a small scale. I believe the Swedish customers are very aware that many of the healthy ingredients in honey go away when it's heated over 42 degrees Celsius (107 F). Honey is viewed as an exclusive and very health-oriented product as opposed to being just a delicious sweetener. If my customers knew that the liquid honey i offered them was less healthy, they would want to pay a lower price than for the creamed honey. Since making creamed honey is simpler, it would obviously also be more economical. You guys in the states should really educate your consumers to understand the advantages of creamed honey. If stored the right way (not above room temperature), it will stay good for a very long time. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 06:18:52 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: Brood frames for honey production MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Combs that > have been used for brooding are susceptible to wax moth invasion > whereas comb used strictly for honey production is of minimal interest > to wax moths. Not the wax moths around here, I'm afraid... J. J. Herts, UK EJOG UNNI ~~~ "I often have the feeling that one or other of us must be constructed inside out." Ted Hooper ~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 00:45:37 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Garry Libby Subject: Re: response to feeding sugar syrup to bees In-Reply-To: <200110260300.f9Q30KY10976@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry George but honey is in the ph range of 5.5 ish. Who told You honey is alkaline? Look in "the Hive and the Honeybee" for info on honey. Garry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 07:21:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Guidelines for Posting to BEE-L MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The guidelines for posting to BEE-L are listed on Allen Dick's web pages at: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L/guidelines.htm Attention is directed to the very first guideline, quoted here because at least three submissions (all good) were discarded in the past 24 hours because they quoted the entire submission to which they were responding. "1. Do not include excessive quotes of previous submissions. If you must quote previous postings, include only what is necessary to make your point. Submissions that include the entirety of previous posts will be rejected without comment or notice." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: response to feeding sugar syrup to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit george seferiadis wrote: > I cannot disagree more than the absurd idea that feeding bees sugar = > .syrup is better than honey. In general, I agree. However when you address over wintering in harsh climates, sugar syrup is better than honey. First- where winters are long and cold, bees do not always have an opportunity for cleansing flights. Tests of bees confined for long periods, such as a northern winter, showed sugar syrup to be superior to all other feeds. Second- not all honey is the same. There are many honeys that granulate quickly and would be exceptionally harmful to bees over an extended period. Heather honey, honeydew, and in my case a combination of goldenrod and aster make dysentery more likely and reduces successful over wintering. Third- the bees are different. You have races of bees that are not normally found in such climates or may be in an area that would not have bees because of the climate, so what is normal would not work. We have created an unnatural situation. There was an interesting finding that when mankind shifted from hunting to agriculture, the health of the species declined as did longevity. However, in our age, a vegetarian lifestyle is promoted because it is healthier. Why was it bad then and good now? You only have to look at the diversity of foods available now and what constitutes a vegatarian diet. Plus, our lifestyle has changed dramatically, more toward couch potato than hunter-gatherer. We have drugs to counter ill health. We have vitamins to supplement our diet. So what is natural for good health - eating mostly meat- is bad and what is unnatural is good. But that is because we have changed and have a new definition of natural- which, for me, will be watching the Oklahoma-Nebraska game on a lazy-boy and eating vegetarian foods like Doritos, not out chasing a deer through the woods. We do the same with our bees for cold, long winters. We feed pollen substitutes. We medicate. We remove bad honey and substitute it for a better feed. We create an environment that is not natural but is actually better than natural, since they would die if left to nature. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 08:39:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Mats question-liquid honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mats Andersson wrote: > You guys in the states should really educate your consumers to understand > the advantages of creamed honey. If stored the right way (not above room > temperature), it will stay good for a very long time. At our Maine State Agriculture Show, our State orgnization has a booth to promote beekeeping and Maine honey. Every year creamed honey did not sell well, but when we put out some cracker/cookies and spread a little on for our visitors, it sold out in one day. You are absolutely right. Education works. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 09:19:43 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regard to liquid honey, Mats said "Since making creamed honey is sim= pler, it would obviously also be more economical." Mats, please tell us in more detail about how you make creamed honey. Ho= nestly, the view here is that creamed honey is harder to make than liquid= honey. The reason is that first one must have liquid honey, so go throu= gh all the steps of extracting and at least straining to get rid of bee l= egs, etc., and then one must make the creamed honey...so making creamed h= oney is viewed as more difficult than liquid honey. Most beekeepers in the US would use what is called the Dyce method for ma= king creamed honey. This is reasonably time consuming, particularly beca= use the honey cannot be sold until 3 weeks or more after being put in fin= al containers. However, the final product is very fine and smooth, with = not any crystals. Looking forward to your reply. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps lloydspear@msn.com http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:54:47 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Garry: In response to your e-mail, if you read my e-mail correctly, honey = changes its PH when it is digested and assimilated. It's called the ash = contents. Yes, honey is acidic before it is consumed, much like lemon, = orange and grapefruit, but when it is consumed the body breaks it down = and releases alkaline buffers, which boots the PH to a higher level. = Like I said there are two ways of looking at the PH factor.Further, = heating the honey above 120 degrees destroys the enzyme which in turn = fails to release the alkaline buffers. George ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 11:51:13 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Comments: Sender has elected to use 8-bit data in this message. If problems arise, refer to postmaster at sender's site. From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. In-Reply-To: <200110262025.f9QKPnY07471@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT > heating the honey above 120 degrees destroys the enzyme which in turn = > fails to release the alkaline buffers. George This sounds interesting! Can you explain this in detail? Which enzyme(s)? Which substances are involved? Are we talking 120°C or 120°F? Do you have a reference to look at? TIA Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 21:36:42 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Proof that there IS Money in Honey! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was watching Lou Dobb's "Moneyline" on CNN this evening. They had a report of two middle eastern fellows being caught trying to smuggle $100,000.00 in a case of honey. The transcript of the (entire) show is available here: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0110/26/mlld.00.html The transcript of the specific segment is pasted below: ========================================== DOBBS: Well, the campaign against terrorist financing is turning up some unusual cases, not all of them directly related to terrorism, or at least we don't know whether they are directly related to terrorism. The placement of two honey shops in Yemen on the Treasury Department's list of terrorist organizations has brought sharp scrutiny of honey imports -- honey imports. And that's that scrutiny that last week led customs officials to discover a large amount of money in honey. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ALLAN DODDS FRANK, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This small Brooklyn store, called The Immigrant, sells luggage, clothing and American honey. It hardly seems like the starting point for a tale of international money smuggling, but authorities say it is. The owner of the shop, Ali Alfatimi, is in this jail, held without bail on charges of conspiring to transport money illegally from the United States. The 45-year-old immigrant from Yemen also runs the adjoining travel agency and laundromat, and, according to the federal complaint, a money transport business. He told U.S. customs agents that for at least the last 18 months, as part of his travel agency and money transfer business, he employed couriers to move cash to Yemen. Alfatimi's lawyer insists his client was engaged in a routine transaction gone awry. ALAN DREZIN, ATTORNEY FOR ALI ALFATIMI: The only crime that we have here is in not reporting the transportation of money out of the country. And my client maintains that it was his instructions that, you know, he thought that the money was going to be properly reported. FRANK (on camera): By whom did he think the money was going to be properly reported? DREZIN: Well, I presume by Mr. Nahshal. FRANK (voice-over): Mr. Nahshal is Basam Nahshal, the 22-year-old naturalized American from Yemen and Alfatimi's courier, caught at the Delta terminal at Kennedy International Airport. As Nahshal's 19 pieces of luggage went through security, seven cardboard cartons similar to these, filled with containers of honey caught an inspector's attention. Packed around the honey containers, $100,150 in cash. Customs agents found Nahshal carrying another $26,413 in cash, along with $4,200 in negotiable checks. And inside a suitcase, $10,000 in traveler's check. Nahshal then called Alfatimi, who came to the airport, where both were arrested. TREVOR HEADLEY, ATTORNEY FOR BASAM NAHSHAL: Mr. Alfatimi, when he was arrested, he indicated that the money was in the boxes. The money belonged to him and that my client had no knowledge that the money was there. FRANK: Still, for Nahshal, who for the last year or so, worked at this delicatessen along the Brooklyn-Queens border, it was a lot of money. (on camera): Basam Nahshal told us authorities he earned $1,000 a month working at this deli. And he said he had no other assets, no checking account, no savings account, no stocks and bonds. (voice-over): In the complaint, the government says Alfatimi told Nahshal to deliver the money to a man in Yemen authorities will not identify. Alfatimi's lawyer claims the $100,000 in the honey belongs to his client. DREZIN: My client was going to use that money to build a house in Yemen. And basically, he was really sending it to himself or his family down there. FRANK: So what about the money that Nahshal carried in his pockets? HEADLEY: There were additional sums and some of which belonged to my client. What part of it belonged to my client? I'm not prepared to say. FRANK: Both men remain at the Metropolitan detention center, while facing conspiracy charges carrying as much as five years in prison and fines of $250,000. The complaint makes no mention of terrorists. And the defense attorneys insist their clients have no connections to Osama bin Laden or his al Qaeda network. (END VIDEOTAPE) Until recently, honey shipments alone did not raise many eyebrows at international airports. Since many people from Middle Eastern countries routinely take honey home as gifts. In Yemen alone, a country of 16 million people, they imported nearly one million pounds of American honey last year, 10 percent of America's export total -- Lou. DOBBS: Well, if there's that kind of money within the boxes of honey, you could understand its popularity in Yemen or almost anywhere else, couldn't you? FRANK: It's better than getting a free coupon. ==================================================== Below is a link to a (CNN) story that reported on the bin Laden "honey connection": http://cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/15/yemen.attacks.honey.ap/index.html jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:31:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: lois george Subject: Re: Mats question-liquid honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: > Mats, if our honey (in this part of the United States) were not treated i= > t would be "hard as a rock" by October/November, I know I am a rookie and know very little compared to the rest of you, but the honey we put up in June looks just like it did in June. The only thing we did was strain it. No heat involved. Not only that, but my son, also a rookie, strained some 18 years ago, poured it up, no heat, and it still looks the same, no granulation. Is this due to the area (central Alabama), maybe what the bees gather from? There must be something I am missing. Lois ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:42:23 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Supering in spring MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You MUST super Westerns with all 10 frames of foundation tightly pushed together ONE SUPER AT A TIME! After the frames are made into drawn comb, then you can use just 9 frames if desired, but NEVER with foundation. Put on just one super of 10 frames of foundation and inspect it until about 6-7 of the frames are drawn and contain some nectar. Then, move the undrawn frames to the center and drawn frames to the outside walls, and add a second super of 10 frames of foundation, and repeat. Hope I have helped. George Imirie EAS Master Beekeeper 69th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:38:30 EDT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Mats question-liquid honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/01 10:24:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, loisg@WEBSHOPPE.NET writes: <> A lot depends on the particular nectar source and the balances of sugars in the honey. Storage temperature is another factor. All things being equal, tupelo and gallberry honey are very slow to crystalize. But it is hard to obtain these in relatively pure state most years. Cotton, canola, and aster honey quickly set up like a rock. Blackberry sets up more slowly, with very large crystals. I have found it very difficult to make cremed honey with southern honeys. The best honey for creming, in my experience is a northeastern clover/goldenrod mix. I cannot store cremed honey over the summer either, as the air temperature in my storage facilities will melt them. Dave Green The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: Response to feeding sugar syrup to bees Garry Libby responds to a post and mentions that honey has a pH of 5.5 ish. In The Hive and the Honey Bee on page 878, the book states: "honey generally has a pH ranging from about 3.2 to 4.5, averaging about 3.9, which is in the range of a weak vinegar." A couple of other posts mentioned studies have shown sugar syrup to be superior to honey for bees. Can some of you "studies have shown" guys provide info on when, where, and who did the studies. I am very interested in reading them. Frankly, I am one of those who disagree that sugar is better than honey for bees. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 07:47:14 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Response to feeding sugar syrup to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Allen wrote: > A couple of other posts mentioned > studies have shown sugar syrup to be superior to honey for bees. Can some > of you "studies have shown" guys provide info on when, where, and who did > the studies. I am very interested in reading them. Frankly, I am one of > those who disagree that sugar is better than honey for bees. >From the archives http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0002B&L=bee-l&P=R3266 and the study is Baily writing in the 1966 Journal of Apiculture Research (in England) Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 08:56:51 +0100 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: Creamed honey In-Reply-To: <200110261334.f9QDYoY23716@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: "With regard to liquid honey, Mats said "Since making creamed honey is sim= pler, it would obviously also be more economical." Mats, please tell us in more detail about how you make creamed honey." OK, i'll tell you how i do it. I am using an approved method developed by Swedish professional beekeepers called "The Ekobi method". Ekobi is an organization for Scandinavian beekeepers. If you happen to read swedish, i'll be happy to mail you the address to the actual report. Here is a compressed version of the document. The full version is several pages. First of all, the honey is harvested, extracted and strained without any heating or pressure involved. Larger operations will use a settling tank and different straining arrangements and maybe some heating to speed up the process, but the honey is not heated above 30 degrees Celsius (86 F). Now, the bulk of the honey stays in a settling tank, drums or whatever you use. For simplicitys sake, i'll give you an example based on 100 kilograms of honey: CREATING THE SEED HONEY Immediately after extraction and straining, the preparation of the seed honey starts. The seed honey is a small amount of honey that is allowed to crystallize under optimal conditions. The seed is 3% of the honey to be seeded, in this example, 3 kilograms. It is poured into a small bucket and cooled to 10 degrees Celsius (50 ). I put mine into the refrigerator and that works fine. After cooling for a few hours, add 0,3 kilograms of chrystallized (creamed) honey into the bucket and stir well, using a power drill or similar arrangement. After that, put the bucket back into the refrigerator. Now take the bucket out every 12 hours and stir the seed honey for a few minutes. Within 2-7 days, it will have a nice creamy consistency and that's when it's ready to be used. MIXING THE SEED HONEY WITH THE REST After the seed honey is ready, it is first mixed with another 6 kilograms of the other (still liquid) honey. The purpose of this is to simplify mixing the seed with the remaining honey. After this mix is completed, pour the seed honey (now 9 kilograms) into the container with the remaining honey while stirring. It is essential that the seed honey is well mixed into the honey immediately. Stirring must continue until the seed is completely mixed into the honey. After that is completed, the honey should be left to chrystallize at a temperature of 5-15 degrees Celsius (41-59 F) without any further action. Within a few days, chrystallization will be under way and in 2-3 weeks, the honey will be hard and very smooth with no chrystals detectable to the tongue. If stored above 15 C (59 F), the honey tends to get bigger chrystals. If stored below 5 C (41 F), the honey will chrystallize very slowly. 10-12 C (50-53 F) is the ideal storing temperature at tis stage. If you like, you can leave this honey for 24 hours and then pour it into jars. You will get a firm, smooth and beautiful honey that can be stored for years. Since it is so firm, it has a tendency to develop a frosty pattern on the inside of the jar that some people don't like. However, it is a proof of a low water content in the honey and assures a best-before date that is several years into the future. I tell this to my customers and many of them ask explicitly for the frosty honey. BOTTLING OF THE HONEY The fully chrystallized honey is carefully heated to 30-35 degrees Celsius (86-95 F) for a day or two and then stirred until it is semi-liquid. It is left for a few hours for any air bubbles to dissolve and then poured into jars. The jars are then stored on a flat surface in a temperature of 5-10 degrees Celsius (41-50 F) for 1-2 weeks. After that, the jars are ready to be sold. Try this and be proud of this excellent product that can be stored for a very long time without having to worry about it. One last comment that is very important: the water content of the honey must be below 18-19% (normal ripe honey) or the honey will lose it's consistency and ferment. This usually happens about 6-9 months. Hope this helps, i'll be happy to answer any questions. I don't claim to be an expert, but i have the documentation. /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:08:17 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Why science is slow to accept new ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A good article in MIT's Technology Review (a very good magazine) addresses some of the problems we have on the list when a new idea comes up and the reaction of those with a scientific background. For those interested it is at http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/nov01/insight.asp Bill Truesdell Bath, ME