From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:55 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525EB24ADC7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO3n010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO3n010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0110E" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 68402 Lines: 1393 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:35:58 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: feeding sugar syrup In-Reply-To: <200110241314.f9ODEcY01547@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed In article <200110241314.f9ODEcY01547@listserv.albany.edu>, Lloyd Spear writes >In Europe this is done primarily because of the steep differences between= > honey prices and sugar syrup. Their honey prices are very high because = >their consumers and packers are "educated" to reject the imported honeys = >that have been so over-processed that they are only sweet...with no honey= > taste. (They laugh at the honey at the honey from Argentina and China t= >hat we accept so readily.) Their sugar prices are also very low because = >of high world production...and a lack of subsidies that keep our own suga= >r prices approximately 2X world prices. I do not know where you got this info from Lloyd, but it is seriously off-beam. Europe imports vast amounts if honey from China and Argentina, they go on to form the basis of most generic blends found in supermarkets, and underpin the relatively modest prices at retail level. There is import duty which keeps the prices a bit above US levels, but still not high. There is some variation between EU member states in terms of being discerning about quality. Like anywhere else there is the niche market of discerning customers at the top end, a spectrum of less interested in the middle, and a majority class of customer who just want 'honey' and whose idea of differentiation is 'runny' or 'thick'. They just want the cheapest. Same on both sides of the pond I would think. As regards your bit about sugar prices, well there is the Common Agricultural Policy to 'thank' for EU pricing. I do not know why you think we get our sugar so cheaply when that is not the case at all. This policy fixes sugar pricing throughout the EU and it is ALWAYS above world price, I believe essentially set at such a level as to protect beet sugar farmers from bankruptcy. Now I do not know what price you are paying for white sugar but here you will pay GBP 800+ per tonne (around USD 1200). This is for dry white sugar at normal prices. (Chinese honey, often below GBP700 per tonne and currently around GBP900 per tonne, is almost in the same ball park) If you are prepared to shop around the supermarket and discounters for loss-leader sugar, normally in 1kg bags, you can get it for about 60% of that rate. Many small scale beekeepers do that and then tell you that is the price of sugar, but not actually so. This is strictly a loss leader. Invert syrup for bees costs from USD 650 to 800 per tonne, depending on quality and quantity. Some Maltose rich ones are just coming to market now and will be up to 20% cheaper. However, these are 72% solids instead of the 95%+ of dry white sugar. This equates to a white sugar equivalent of over USD 900 per tonne. I do not know if this seems cheap to you, but from all reports I have heard it is expensive. Several years ago the EU had too much sugar and needed to offload the surplus. The price here at the time was about 40c per kg, and was offloaded into the US market at about 14c per kg, much of which apparently went for bee feeding, causing many complaints from both sides of the Atlantic at the time. > >Those taking all honey and feeding syrup in the US and Canada do so becau= >se of one of two reasons: >2. Studies have shown that syrup is better than honey as a winter food. = >I don't really understand what that means. Again, perhaps someone else c= >an help on this one. No indigestible constituents to accumulate in the gut means little need to defecate in mid winter. In areas with long weather imposed periods of confinement this is beneficial. I used to doubt the veracity of this myself, until I saw how well it worked in Scandinavia against using natural stores. No doubt in my mind now that the old fashioned way in our climate of leaving them with natural stores is not really for the best. Avoidance of stress is first factor, but fresh clean stores comes a close second. Inevitably the avoidance of stress means we end up in a compromise situation here where we leave them with minimal natural stores, and then feed a reasonable amount of syrup. Watch out for over feeding though which can also cost in colony losses in long winters. If you give them so much that they do not have room for that last cycle of brood going into winter you have less young bees for spring (written strictly from a dark bee/northern european perspective). -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:49:51 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: granulation time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lois wonders about granulation time... Lois, some honey will granulate so fast that it is hard to get out of the= hive in liquid form. Examples are canola and aster. Other honey will s= tay liquid for very long periods without granulation. An example is hone= y from Black Locust. =20 Where Mats is, in Sweden, there is a great deal of canola grown so it wou= ld not be unusual to have honey granulate very quickly (although I am cer= tain there are Swedish areas where the bees would not harvest nectar from= canola). It all depends on the honey source... Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps lloydspear@msn.com http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 22:31:52 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Why science is slow to accept new ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Thanks for sending the MIT article. I really enjoyed it. However, I found another article, "Scientific Education Paradox: How can the same educational system produce both scientific elite's and illiterates?" found under the heading of EXTRA STORIES much more interesting. Being a physicist who attained my degree over 60 years ago makes me wonder about our teaching in this 21st century when science in our present century is so much more important for the "average man" than it was 100 years ago. I hope all of our apis mellifera are not dead before beekeepers start paying more attention to the bee scientists than they do to the continuous antidotal programs that persistently arise. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:53:54 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Re: feeding sugar syrup to bees In-Reply-To: <200110260400.f9Q40sY14060@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10/26/01 12:00 AM, you wrote: >Given the continuous use of sugar syrup will eventually lower the immune system of the bees,and be subjected to all kinds of disease,and much of are problem arises from this very fact. A while back we were admonished to separate fact from opinion. Here is a perfect example of a person's opinion being pushed as a fact. I have *never* seen any study linking the feeding of sugar to *any* ill effect and it is my *opinion* that bees do perfectly well on it. The nutritional requirements of adult bees are minimal; the raising of brood requires natural pollen stores. Where do you get your information about the immune system of honey bees? Peter Borst Ithaca NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 06:18:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ken Haller Subject: Light Polarizer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have, in the past, seen plans for a simple device that polarizes light = through a jar of honey. The use of the device allows particulate = material to be easily seen. Does anyone use this device to check the = clarity of their honey (extracted) and does anyone know of construction = plans on the web? Thanks Ken Haller Jr. apism@home.com Zone 5A ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:19:45 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: george seferiadis Subject: Fw: Enzymes the life given properties of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: george seferiadis=20 To: BEEL-L@cnsibm.albany.edu=20 Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 4:46 PM Subject: Enzymes the life given properties of honey Let me start in saying that process sugar is a dead food ,period.There = is no life in it. With that saying I will try to explain why honey is = the only food bees should feed on. Honey bees extract nectar from = flowers, and carry the nectar in a honey sac, wherein special enzymes = break down . the complex sucrose into two simple sugars: fructose and = glucose.This fluid is deposited in open cells. The enzymes that = contribute to this is invertase, glucose oxidase,and amylase. One of the = active principles of glucose oxidase is inhibine. This breaks down = chemically to produce H2 O2 which is hydrogen peroxide a common = household disinfectant ( which is almost identical with a mild = antibiotic) .Inhibine is destroyed by light and heat ,thus it is very = worthwhile to obtain honey extracted only by centrifugal force. Raw = honey is noteworthy for having considerable plant enzyme called amylase. = The amylase does not come from the bee but is a true plant enzyme, = concentrated from the pollen of flowers. Its origin was established = when it was shown by Vansell that the optimal PH for activity was around = 4 for plant amylase ,and 7 for bee amylase. If you wish to predigest a = starchy food such as bread, spread some raw honey on it The moment the = honey and bread come into contact, the honey enzyme starts predigestion, = and if you let stand at room temperature for 15 minutes before you eat = it, there will be less work for salivary amylase. The amylase from raw = honey readily converts starch into maltose sugar. Heating destroys the = amylase which is richer in raw honey than in most other foods. Again I say feeding sugar to bees will weaken there immune system, and = there ability to come into spring strong and healthy Let me summarize = that enzymes are protein carriers charged with vital energy factors, = just as your car battery consists of metal plates charged with = electrical energy. george ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: prices in US and Europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Murray corrected my careless comments. I apologize to the list and thank= Murray, whom I assume is correct. My comments on honey prices were based on two sources; one in Sweden and = the other in Germany. Both reported to me the practice of taking all th= e honey in the fall and substituting sugar syrup; both for the same reaso= n, that honey prices are far higher than syrup prices, with the bonus tha= t the syrup is better for the bees than is honey. I now understand that = both may be (are) niche markets for local honey. My comments concerning sugar syrup prices are based on the US press repor= ting of inexpensive world prices compared to US prices. I was not aware = that the EU also subsidized the price of sugar. In quantity of several tons, our sugar prices are approximately $550 a t= on (English ton, or about 900 kilos. Our corn syrup (HFCS) prices (80% s= olids) in tanker loads (20 tons) are approximately $.44 a kilo. However,= when this gets to the hobbyist it is likely to cost about the same as su= gar, considering the cost of the bucket and a dealer's modest markup. No= netheless, the beekeeper saves the considerable labor cost and mess invol= ved in making ones own syrup from sugar. =20 Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps lloydspear@msn.com http://www.rossrounds.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:10:44 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jean-Marc La France Subject: Re: Creamed honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Lloyd Spear wrote: > Most beekeepers in the US would use what is called the Dyce method for ma= > king creamed honey. Could you please explain the Dyce method or give a reference. J.-M. La France > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:55:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fw: Enzymes the life given properties of honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit george seferiadis wrote: > Let me start in saying that process sugar is a dead food ,period.There = > is no life in it. With that saying I will try to explain why honey is = > the only food bees should feed on. Honey bees extract nectar from = > flowers, and carry the nectar in a honey sac, wherein special enzymes = > break down . the complex sucrose into two simple sugars: fructose and = > glucose.This fluid is deposited in open cells. I read some portions of the Hive and the Honey Bee (1992 edition) along with other sources and gleaned the following: 1. Many plants produce nectar that is mainly sucrose. White cane/beet sugar is 99% sucrose. 2. Bees make enzymes in their own bodies to add to nectar in order for it to break down into what we know as honey. The nectar does not do it by itself but requires the bee. (as noted above) So nectar could be considered "dead" since it requires conversion and the addition of enzymes by the bee. 3. White sugar (99% sucrose) is to quote from a quick search on the internet -WHAT IS SUCROSE? Sucrose is a disaccharide, a combination of the two monosaccharides, glucose and fructose. When eaten sucrose is broken down to glucose and fructose in the intestine and these two simple sugars are readily absorbed into the bloodstream. Most of the fructose is converted into glucose in the liver. Like all carbohydrates, sucrose is ultimately used by the body as glucose for energy. (my comment- The article applied to human diet.) 4. Nectar contains various trace elements and can be combinations of glucose, fructose and sucrose. But the bee really does not care what the combination is, since they convert any nectar to "honey", with all the enzymes necessary, in varying degrees, for it to be called honey regardless of the source. 5. Natural sources of nectar lead to varying amounts of glucose and fructose in the resulting honey but by in large it is in the area of 37-40% fructose to 30-35% glucose with water and other sugars taking up most of the rest. Bees convert sucrose to fructose and glucose through enzymes in their body. 6. Many of the other things that give honey its normal characteristics do not come from the floral source, but are added by the bee. That even includes its acidic character (which was news to me). To quote from THATHB, "many of these sugars are not found in nectar but are formed by the bee enzymes and the acids in honey". The predominate acid in honey is gluconic acid which "originates largely from the activity of the glucose oxidase which the bee adds at ripening" along with some bacterial action. So, if sucrose is fed to the bee for overwintering, the only difference in the resulting honey would be trace elements, not enzymes, since the enzymes for conversion to "honey" all come from the bee. And the resulting honey from white sugar would have all the enzymes necessary to be called honey. There would be some variability with the amount of enzymes but that is mostly due to environmental conditions (THATHB), but since the bees also carry the necessary enzymes in their digestive tract (like we do- see 4 above) then sucrose fed to the bees for overwintering would be perfectly acceptable/digestible/energy producing. Especially since some nectar sources are nearly pure sucrose. I do not see how it would damage their immune system. Especially in view of the experience of many in the north who overwinter on white sugar produced honey alone but have trouble with nectar produced honey. In essence, we are substituting the natural nectar source with a pure sucrose "nectar". And we are using the most benign "nectar" source for our long winters. However, I bow to those experts that could shed more illumination on the subject of bee digestion and honey production since mine is mostly from books. I think we are in a "white death" (the approbation linked to granulated sugar) discussion that will lead nowhere. But to show I am even handed, I do not feed the other "white death", which is white bread, to my bees. They love tofu. Occasional Beefsteak Rye, but only with knockwurst. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:45:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Dyce method for making creamed honey Comments: cc: "LloydSpear@msn.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" A very good write up of the Dyce Method for creating creamed honey can be found at: http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/info/article6.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 23:34:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: To Paint or Not Greetings all, I know for our area, it is a bit late to rely on a solar wax melter, but I finally got all the materials together and the time to do it. At least it will be ready for next summer. Question is, does the inside of the melter get painted black or is it painted white? Most of the literature I have seen says it is painted black on the outside, but it all disagrees when it comes to the inside. Personally, I would think it needs to be black on the inside to absorb and hold the suns energy, but was wondering why I saw some people say white. Please advise. Feel free to contact me directly. Scott Moser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 00:56:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Light Polarizer Ken: The September 2001 American Bee Journal (page 648) has a dimensioned drawing of the device from 50 years ago. The plans along with some useful text on the polariscope also appeared in the North Carolina State Beekeeping Association's 2001 calendar for the month of November. One source for the polarizing filter is B&H Photo-Video. They carry a ROSCO #7300 19x20 inch polarizing filter sheet. You only need two 6-inch square pieces however, so you might check to see if others are interested in making the polariscope. Their email is photo@bhphotovideo.com. Their phone is (800) 606-6969. The Southcentral Alaska Beekeepers Association's newsletter used the NCSBA's calendar article in its September issue. Contact me dickallen@gci.net if you think your might be interested in the article. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:46:31 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Why science is slow to accept new ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" quote: >Good scientists are trained to be skeptical so as not to be deluded >or, more particularly, as Feynman said, not to delude themselves. >Indeed, in both science and technology, it is not embarrassing to be >skeptical of a brilliant new paradigm or a remarkable breakthrough >that turns out years later to be right. It's simply the nature of >the job. -- from MIT's Technology Review http://www.technologyreview.com/magazine/nov01/insight.asp comment: Three years ago I began doing experiments with screened bottoms. At that time, I was optimistic, like everyone else. If we could knock the mites down with some kind of smoke made from a natural substance like mint oil, and trap them under the hive, we could really make progress. Soon it became apparent that the method did not perform reliably, and the screens did not seem to be curtailing mite development. I began to think about mites falling off the cluster. If you have bees in several stories, what is the likelihood that a mite could simply fall all the way to the bottom? Think about it, a mite loses it's grip and begins to fall. It's two feet or more to the bottom. There are obstacles in the way. You have frames, burr comb, and thousands of bees to grab hold of. Unless the mite was weak and perhaps already half-dead, how would it ever get that far? Observing bees, I noticed that mites do fall off clusters, but it could be that they are just falling off the bottom couple of inches, or that these are mites already about to die. In further large scale trials I noticed that the hives with screens got sick and died from mite infestation just as often as other hives in the same apiary. I became very skeptical of this technique and began to look into the research papers. In these papers you repeatedly find the words "not statistically significant". Just what does that mean? It means that the differences fall within the margin of error. If hives vary 10 to 20 per cent in their mite loads, and your study shows a 15 percent difference, this could be due to ordinary variation and not to treatments. Another thing that is noticed in discussions about bottom screens is an element of faith. Faith is the exact opposite of skepticism. There are times when one needs great faith, but when trying to distinguish fact from fancy, faith is in the way. What we need right now is a reliable, non-chemical way to treat mites. In my opinion, the smart money is on bee breeding. There are reports of mite levels lower than 10% on bees raised from Russian stock, compared to 70% infestation levels in the control (domestic) stocks. Now there is something that raises the eyebrows of even a hard-boiled skeptic like me. -- Peter Borst Ithaca, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 07:19:14 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Feeding sugar to bees In-Reply-To: <200110300500.f9U50gY24231@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" george seferiadis writes: >Again I say feeding sugar to bees will weaken there immune system, and = >there ability to come into spring strong and healthy Let me summarize = >that enzymes are protein carriers charged with vital energy factors, = >just as your car battery consists of metal plates charged with = >electrical energy. George, You have provided no evidence that any of these factors affect the health of bees. You may have worked with bees for many years and have valuable opinions, but without evidence, they remain as such. I worked in the queen raising business for ten years and fed tons of sugar. Bees can live on it, grow on it, thrive on it -- if they have access to natural pollen. It is much harder to find a decent pollen substitute than it is to find a substitute for honey. When you talk about the immune system, what is this based on? Do we know that bees have an immune system? Immunity to what diseases? Does feeding sugar cause foulbrood, for example? When you start talking about "vital energy factors" you lose a lot of people. What are these? -- Peter Borst Ithaca, NY USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Martin Damus Subject: Re: Why science is slow to accept new ideas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> peterborst@PERSIANARTS.ORG 10/30/01 07:46AM >>> quote: >Good scientists are trained to be skeptical so as not to be deluded >or, more particularly, as Feynman said, not to delude themselves. >Indeed, in both science and technology, it is not embarrassing to be >skeptical of a brilliant new paradigm or a remarkable breakthrough >that turns out years later to be right. It's simply the nature of >the job. comment: There is a good reason for skepticism in scientists. Optimism may lead to a non-objective interpretation of results, whereas skepticism leads to further experimentation or studies to verify results. It is one reason why scientists perform replications in time and space, use controls in experiments, and ask hard questions of other researchers to provide evidence to support their views. There is a wonderful parallel in government - the official opposition in Canada and other parliamentary nations are the skeptics that assail every bill introduced by the government, just to make sure it is well thought out and receives input from people less optimistic than those that drafted it. Martin Damus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 10:49:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Russian bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by LLOYDSPEAR@MSN.COM to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to correct a broken URL. ----------------- Original message (ID=A97BEBFF) (26 lines) ------------------- From: "Lloyd Spear" To: "informed discussion of bees" Cc: "Lloyd Spear" Subject: Russian bees Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 09:33:44 -0500 For the latest article, October, 2001, go to http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct01/bee1001.htm. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 12:14:56 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Why science is slow to accept new ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter wrote: > Three years ago I began doing experiments with screened bottoms. At > that time, I was optimistic, like everyone else. If we could knock > the mites down with some kind of smoke made from a natural substance > like mint oil, and trap them under the hive, we could really make > progress. Soon it became apparent that the method did not perform > reliably, and the screens did not seem to be curtailing mite > development. There may be some true believers that have placed all their money on screened bottoms, but my guess is most of us who use them do so in conjunction with normal mite treatments, such as Apistan or Cumophose. As you also noted, all the studies I have seen show that the buildup of Varroa is slowed but by no mean stopped, so when Varroa hits its usual end game, open bottoms do no better than closed as you also noted. Also, what I have learned, which may be incorrect, is that screened bottoms started as a summer ventilation tool for migratory beekeepers in Europe (I believe it was Denmark). They use to put the closed bottoms back on but one beekeeper forgot and found his bees did as well or better than closed bottoms, so generally most shifted to year round screened bottoms. This was 20 or more years ago. So best reason to use screened bottoms is ventilation. Since then several techniques of possible varroa control have latched on to screened bottoms, including FGMO, wintergreen patties and smoke as something to be used in conjunction to increase their techniques efficacy. Only the wintergreen patty treatment meets my criteria of a good test, but I am not an expert, only skeptical. And that, like most other supposed natural techniques, require a lot more labor than the strips. I also wondered why mites dropping from high in the hive would make it to the bottom and not get stuck somewhere on the way down. Can only guess, but if the mite was trying to escape from the irritant, it may keep dropping to get away from it, so you could make it from the top of the hive to the bottom. And a variety of treatments cause mite drop. So screened bottoms is not a Varroa control. But they do give other benefits, so I will continue to use them, especially since they do more good than harm. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:05:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Simoneau_Andr=E9?= Subject: Immunology in honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter Borst wrote: "When you talk about the immune system, what is this based on? Do we know that bees have an immune system? Immunity to what diseases?" Peter, to see more information on immunity of honeybee, I refer you to the very interesting Ph.D. thesis defended by Colin DENHOLM at IACR-Rothamsted in U.K.(1999)"Inducible honeybee viruses associated with Varroa jacobsoni" (You can replace jacobsoni by destructor). http://www.iacr.bbsrc.ac.uk/pie/phdwebsite/phdindex.html André Simoneau, d.v.m. Laboratoire de pathologie animale L'Assomption, Québec Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Immunology in honeybee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Simoneau André wrote: > Ph.D. thesis defended by Colin DENHOLM at IACR-Rothamsted > in U.K.(1999)"Inducible honeybee viruses associated with Varroa jacobsoni" > (You can replace jacobsoni by destructor). > http://www.iacr.bbsrc.ac.uk/pie/phdwebsite/phdindex.html Simoneau, thank you for a most interesting article. Reading it, I see no way that white sugar fed as syrup would in any way lessen the bee's immune system. I will be happy to be corrected since I am out of my pay grade in this area, but it appears that the bee internally generates many if not all of the substances that are a part of its immune system. (Just like the enzymes.) If the bee has honey/pollen during the year and only sucrose honey (honey from sugar syrup) over winter, I can see no way that it would not emerge from the winter as well off as when it went in, barring other factors like mites. Especially since, if I read the article correctly, fat cells are key in producing some immune factors and you are giving them an excellent, pure, uncontaminated food with sucrose honey to keep them fat and happy. However, a weak bee, one with dysentery from aster and other honeys, would actually have a weak immune system. I hope we keep in mind that we are not talking about feeding sugar syrup all year but are specifically addressing over wintering with honey created from sugar syrup vrs from natural nectar sources. We often get into problems when discussing what is natural and what is not. My natural state, straight out of the womb, was buck naked. Not sure I would want to be in that state outside last night when it was well below freezing. My neighbors probably would not have been too thrilled either. So to get through the winter I dress warmly in gortex and other synthetics, tune up the heat, and have foods that come from all over the world, all things that were not available 200 years ago and so are they unnatural or have we redefined what is natural. Truth is, if we had the good-old-days natural state of those who lived a little more than 100 years ago, most on this list would not be around. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 14:49:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: Re: feeding sugar syrup to bees Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" quote: >Honey bee feeding behavior consists of a distinct series of behavioral and physiological processes. Nectar, honeydew, soft drinks, and other sugar-rich fluids are best viewed as simple energy sources needed by bees to power their flight, to synthesize wax, and for thermoregulation. As such, these materials are of little nutritional interest and are not discussed further. Pollen, on the other hand, provides all the nutrients needed by bees for growth and development rather than energy production. from: Survival of Honey Bees, Apis mellifera (Hymenoptera: Apidae), Fed Various Pollen Sources JUSTIN 0. SCHMIDT, STEVEN C. THOENES, AND M. D. LEVIN Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Carl Hayden Bee Research Center, 2000 East Allen Road, Tucson, Arizona 85719 http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/publ/survival.html The book"Honey Bee Pests, Predators, and Diseases" edited by Morse and Flottum (1997) there are no references to any diseases caused by feeding sugar to bees. In fact, the only connection between nutrition and disease that I could find was this: "Crowding of colonies where the individual hive has difficulty in supporting its need for pollen may increase the risk of nosema disease. Supplying honey bee colonies with protein, either by supplementary feeding or by using apiary sites with rich pollen supplies, reduces the level of infection." PB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:24:18 +0100 Reply-To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mats Andersson Subject: Re: granulation time In-Reply-To: <200110291302.f9TD27Y10976@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear wrote: "Where Mats is, in Sweden, there is a great deal of canola grown so it wou= ld not be unusual to have honey granulate very quickly (although I am cer= tain there are Swedish areas where the bees would not harvest nectar from= canola)" True, Lloyd, for some Swedish beekeepers canola is the main nectar source. The honey source is not so specific on honey here. All sorts of wild flowers and trees are available and blooming at the same time, so calling the honey dandelion honey, clover honey or canola honey would be a only a guide to what part of the season the honey was produced. Do american consumers seriously believe that the specialized honey they get is from one source only? (Or is it so?) I know of beekeepers in Sweden who harvest all of their honey at the same time (late august). Those can obliously not be near canola, or the honey would be chrystallized long ago (canola bloomed June 8-23 this summer, according to my notes). /Mats Andersson, Stockholm Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:28:28 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: feeding sugar syrup to bees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I notice a higher instance of dysintary with fructose syrup than when bees are fed scrape granulated sugar and water which I mix myself. I see no difference in a mild winter but do in a severe winter with long periods of confinement. Bees winter great on Goldenrod and Aster honey in our area. Both flows happen when the temperature is quite high. Once sealed the honey never seems to crystalize. I bottled a drum of last years Goldenrod/Aster honey which was still liquid after a year today. In Canada and farther north the opposite seems to be true. I believe the crystalization problem farther north is caused by temperatures around 57 F. when the bees are trying to convert the nectar to honey but only my opinion. The smell in the hives (and at times in the honey house) are different between Goldenrod and aster. I can tell the two apart but many beekeepers only notice a smell. With Goldenrod the bees draw a beautiful yellow wax which is great for candles. Why the beewax is very yellow when the goldenrod flow is on I have not a clue. Maybe someone on the list knows why? I will be at the annual "Small Farm Today Trade Show" in Columbia, Missouri on November 1,2 and 3rd. to answer beekeeping questions. To register over the phone or get directions to the show call 1-800-633-2535. I wrote a article about the show which was published in the June 2001 issue of Bee Culture for those interested. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Joe R." Subject: slatted racks and OMBs For years I have consistently used slatted racks with all my hives (three to six depending on the year) after reading that they provide additional clustering space for the bees, control drafts, and help in overwintering in cold climates (I'm in USDA Zone 4 in central Maine, where the snow is usually deep and it can get pretty darned cold in the winter). I have never had any problem with bees building comb down onto them. Now I am also using open mesh bottoms, with a bottom board underneath, as a method of varroa control. It occurred to me the other day that the slatted racks with their 4 plus inch wide slat at the front as a draft control, and the slats that run perpendicularly to the frames of the hive, might be cancelling out some of the benefits of the mesh since mites that drop could land on the slats and climb back on the next bee rather than dropping all the way through the mesh. I suppose I could simply make a slatted rack with the slats running lengthwise, spaced so they are underneath the bottoms of the frames, and get the same effect, while eliminating what amounts to the wide front slat altogether, thus getting the additional clustering space but giving up the supposed benefit of draft control. Any thoughts on this? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:38:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: slatted racks and OMBs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > I suppose I could simply make a slatted rack with the slats running > lengthwise, spaced so they are underneath the bottoms of the frames, and > get the same effect .... Such racks are available at Betterbee, Greenwich, NY. 1-800-632-3379 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 06:57:34 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: specialized honey (was granulation time) Comments: To: man@mbox301.swipnet.se MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Do american consumers seriously believe that the specialized honey they get is from one source only? (Or is it so?) In the U.S. the beekeeper can not label *pure* dandelion, clover or canola but can use the name if he wants. In certain instances certain honey can be *almost *pure one source because no other plants are blooming at the time but you are correct in saying a 100% pure can not be easily proven and the reason the word *Pure Clover* is not allowed. Years ago the testing lab for the honey loan program tested the pollen grains for a general floral source when samples were submited for reasons I would rather not say. Keeping beekeepers honest has been a major problem for the USDA. Right now there is a honey on the store shelves called "Cucamonga honey". I looked up "Cucamonga honey". I believe the name could read "Pure Cucamonga Honey" and be legal. I will let one of the California Beekeepers explain the source for Western Commerce's "Cucamonga Honey". Sincerely, Bob Harrison Ps. I believe the label reads "Wild Cucamonga Honey". I am leaving town so will explain. Cucamonga is a location outside of Los Angeles. North of I 10 and west of I 15 and is called Rancho Cucamonga (Cucamonga for short). The label is a real eye catcher in the stores. Much better than "Pure Los Angeles Honey". The Chamber of Commerce for Rancho Cucamonga says the city is part of the Los Angeles complex of suburbs. I imagine there are those devoted users of "Cucamonga Honey" which believe the honey comes from the exotic flowers of the Cucamonga tree, bush or plant. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:53:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Honey sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mat asked "Do American consumers seriously believe that the specialized h= oney they get is from one source only? (Or is it so?)" Some consumers believe the labels that state a honey variety, and sometim= es it is true! For example, this coming Saturday I am speaking at a meeting in Virginia.= Last year I spoke at the same meeting, and so got to hear from a Virgin= ia state official. Virginia has a law (regulation?) requiring that if a = honey label states a source, no less than 51% of the contents must be fro= m that source. Moreover, upon request they are willing to test the honey= and order honey removed from shelves if it does not meet the minimum req= uirements. =20 They test the honey by examining the pollen grains. When they find that = all pollen grains have been removed by filtration, they require that the = packer show them records documenting that the honey in the batches on the= shelves contain at least 51% of the variety claimed. Of course, when th= e honey is from a non-US source, those records do not exist so the non-US= honey must be a maximum of 49% of the contents. I believe other states have the same label requirements, but I am not cer= tain that other states are as willing as Virginia to actually enforce the= regulations. Of course, Mats, some of our honey varieties have such a distinctive tast= e that the educated consumer knows instantly whether it is properly label= ed. Examples are tupelo, sourwood, basswood, orange, and buckwheat. (So= rry, but I do not know the Latin names.) Finally, you may be interested to learn that your type of canola is not u= sually grown here. The Canola I have seen in Sweden is seeded in the fal= l and harvested in early summer. We call that Spring Canola. Due to cli= mate differences (it being much colder here than in Sweden during the win= ter) we grow Summer Canola, which is seeded in the spring and harvested i= n late summer. Best regards, Lloyd LloydSpear@msn.com www.rossrounds.com Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Simoneau_Andr=E9?= Subject: Immunology and feeding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bill Truesdell wrote: "Simoneau, thank you for a most interesting article. Reading it, I see no way that white sugar fed as syrup would in any way lessen the bee's immune system.." Bill I could not agree more with you on that, and in fact, with all the content of your post. My intervention was to share some references on bee immunology but like you said, we must keep in mind that the winters in our (your) country were here before the bees. Feeding our bees with a source of energy (white sugar or HFCS)is a compensation or an adaptation process since we do not have all year round available nectar and pollen. It seems that not too many years ago, a common attitude was to take the spring honey for the beekeeper while the darker, stronger fall honey was for winter stores (James E.Tew in Bee Culture,sept.96). This is not valid anymore. According to James, who is Extension Specialist in Apiculture "several papers have presented results concluding that common table sugar (sucrose) is normally a better winter food than the honey that bees collect from natural autumn sources." Let's keep in mind that bees do not freeze to death, they starve to death. André Simoneau, d.v.m. Laboratoire de pathologie animale L'Assomption, Québec Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:30:20 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: specialized honey (was granulation time) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of my honey ends up with the floral source descried as "New London County Wildflower" Our flow runs very light lemon yellow to very dark and then light again after Japanese knotweed is done. To get the very light spring honey you have to feed in February or the bees will build on the nectar and catch later flows. People ask for lighter honey until they try the dark. I tell them if color is their deciding factor to go buy some Karo syrup. I can never guess which honey will go solid the fastest with any degree of accuracy from one year to the next. The point is you can get many flavors by harvesting several times during the season and extracting seperately. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:51:55 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Honey sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/01 8:55:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, LLOYDSPEAR@MSN.COM writes: <> That is hardly an equivalent ratio. Some plants are good pollen sources, but poor nectar sources, and vice versa. I.e., 51% of the pollen being blackberry pollen, does not necessarily translate to 51% of the nectar being from blackberry. And pollen from some plants is only identifiable down to family anyway. I doubt that microscopic examination would be able to differentiate between blackberry, dewberry, and many other rose family plants. I would seriously question the validity of such testing by the state. There has been some testing in Europe trying to establish reasonable ratios of the various plants re pollen and nectar, but I don't think that any universally accepted tables of ratios exist. Different researchers found that the test results were not repeatable. Pollen test would only establish very rough guidelines. For example, in the southern Appalachians, there is a lot more sourwood sold than produced. Tests of samples labeled sourwood should show at least *some* sourwood pollen. I suspect many do not. Interestingly, Toxicodendron radicans is a very common pollen in honey, and often makes up the majority of the pollen. Would you want to label your honey *poison ivy*? I generally label by predominant taste. I discuss this with store personnel that are often questioned by customers, and try to have them thoroughly informed about honey. I have often pointed out that few honeys are purely of one variety. Orange blossom, on a year when there is a good flow would be one of the purest. But in a poor year, it would not, as bees will range from the groves to find other nectar sources. I also usually have additional label information. For example, the front panel may identify blackberry, but the back panel will say blackberry and other spring flowers. <> Canola grown in southeastern USA is all fall seeded. Canola could not stand our summertime temperatures. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: specialized honey (was granulation time) In-Reply-To: <200110311341.f9VDfrY24079@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So, when I lived south of LA, I could have labeled everything Orange Blossom Honey (even though the orange trees were being cut down? After all, I lived in Orange. Too bad "Knox Honey" doesn't sound as nice. I've been told TN law prohibits labeling with a source, unless it says "contains", as nothing is ever 100%. That could be completely wrong, but is being spread in the bee "community". Yet, I see labeled honey all over. My favorite so far: Blueberry Honey, then in VERY small print: from wildflowers in the region in maine that blueberries are raised (or similar). Cost: $6 for 4 oz. Karen -----Original Message----- From: Bob & Liz Ps. I believe the label reads "Wild Cucamonga Honey". I am leaving town so will explain. Cucamonga is a location outside of Los Angeles. North of I 10 and west of I 15 and is called Rancho Cucamonga (Cucamonga for short). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:26:08 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Hive honey mechanics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In André Simoneau's response to my post on the bee's immune system he said: Quote It seems that not too many years ago, a common attitude was to take the spring honey for the beekeeper while the darker, stronger fall honey was for winter stores (James E.Tew in Bee Culture,sept.96). This is not valid anymore. According to James, who is Extension Specialist in Apiculture "several papers have presented results concluding that common table sugar (sucrose) is normally a better winter food than the honey that bees collect from natural autumn sources." Unquote That is interesting, since I do extract in early summer. But I still think I avoid overwintering on fall honey. I follow the advice given me by Tony Jadczak and George Imire which is to pull my honey after the major nectar flow (usually always clover) which in my area ends in July. I put on an inner cover and the extracted supers go on top for the bees to clean out and take down. And here is my question and my guess as to the answer to the question. What are the mechanics of honey movement in the hive after that point? My guess is that the bees continue to fill the upper body (below the extracted supers) and the queen is slowly forced down to the lower hive body. Some excess honey works its way into the upper supers, but most, in the middle of summer, ends up in the lower two hive bodies especially when we go into our normal nectar dearth in August. When our dearth period ends, the bees continue to fill the lower hive bodies and and any excess, which is later fall honey, ends up either in the upper supers or end frames of the lower hive body, but none or nearly none is in the upper hive body. I pull the supers and extract them in September and usually get 20-40 pounds of fall honey which does granulate by October/November. So my bees will finish off any of the quick granulating honey early and have only the summer honey to overwinter on (I no longer feed either in the winter or spring. Since I shifted I have not had need to. They have always overwintered well.) Before I followed Tony's advice, I did like most in our area an extracted everything in the fall. And my bees got dysentery and had slow buildup or dead hives the spring. I did feed sugar syrup... but my guess is that the honey mechanics here lead to fall honey being available in mid/late winter and the sugar syrup, early. The bees, with the supers on and easily accessible, filled them first with summer honey and continued to work down to the lower hive bodies. But the latest honey to go in before feeding sugar syrup was fall honey and it would have been in both the top box and middle of the lower box. All the sugar syrup would have also gone into the lower box. So the bees would go from sugar syrup to fall honey and finally to summer honey (I realize it might not be that clear cut, but approximately so). So my bees were feeding on the worst possible honey in mid-late winter, which is why they had dysentery and came out of the winter weak. Since I switched, with few exceptions my bees out produce those who only extract in the fall. My norm is 75 lb.minimum per hive while most others average 20-40 pounds, just as I once did. Comments appreciated. I am sure George will set me right. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:22:57 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: specialized honey (was granulation time) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HelloKaren and All, I went in a store the other day to try to get shelf space. The store was selling 12 oz. bears labeled Blueberry Honey, Orange honey, strawberry honey and four or five other flavers. In small print was the information the honey was flavored and not from those floral sources. Kind of like Honey sticks. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:54:25 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hive honey mechanics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, I read your comments with GREAT interest, and am pretty much in agreement with your opinion. One of the things that most people just don't seem to grasp is the fact that that at any given time, brood is being fed whatever nectar is being gathered at that time. This is because NECTAR, NOT HONEY, is the natural feed of a bee; and honey is just a stored winter feed, just like hardtack is for a sailor or K-ration for a soldier during a fight. I am fortunate in that there is not much goldenrod and aster left in my Maryland area for nectar collection, so I always feed sugar in the fall because I requeen all colonies on September 1st and heavy "nectar" flows are essential for good queen acceptance. I feed 1:1 sugar syrup from Sept. 1 to October 15th, and 2:1 sugar syrup including Fumidil-B from Oct. 15th to November 30th. I have rarely seen any dysentery in my colonies, but seen a great deal in neighboring colonies. None of this is scientifically documented, but an opinion I have developed through my 69 years of beekeeping observations. By the way, the official Maryland average yearly honey yield is 29 pounds/colony; and my 10 year average colony yield is 132 pounds/colony, but the bad year of 2001 will drop my average considerably. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:53:01 +1300 Reply-To: peter@airborne.co.nz Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Bray Organization: Airborne Honey Ltd. Subject: Re: specialized honey (was granulation time) In-Reply-To: <200110311750.f9VHowY05574@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > HelloKaren and All, > I went in a store the other day to try to get shelf space. The store was > selling 12 oz. bears labeled Blueberry Honey, Orange honey, strawberry > honey and four or five other flavers. In small print was the information the > honey was flavored and not from those floral sources. Kind of like Honey > sticks. Bob The Codex Alimentarius has a standard for honey. I hope this link works. If not try our site, we have some good info on it there. http://www.codexalimentarius.net/docsearch/docs/en/enSTA012.htm When labelling for a specific source the following relevent section of the Codex says: "Section 6 Labelling Section 6.1 The Name of the Food Subsection 6.1.4" "Honey may be designated according to floral or plant source if it comes wholly or mainly from that particular source and has the organoleptic, physicochemical and microscopic properties corresponding with that origin." i.e. it must look like a duck, walk like a duck, have webbed feet, flat bill, feathers and quack......... Identification therefore becomes a matter of selecting parameters that are indicative of that honey, quantifying the range of known values statistically and then applying the known model to the sample in question. Sounds simple, but in fact is a lot of work - howevever the outcome is good quality control - and maybe some regulatory control if fraud becomes an issue with high priced selected honey types. Regards, Peter Bray _________________________________________________________ Airborne Honey Ltd., Pennington St, PO Box 28, Leeston, New Zealand Fax 64-3-324-3236, Phone 64-3-324-3569 http://www.airborne.co.nz peter@airborne.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:04:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Why is science slow to accept new ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 31/10/01 05:04:13 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << If you have bees in several stories, what is the likelihood that a mite could simply fall all the way to the bottom? Think about it, a mite loses it's grip and begins to fall. It's two feet or more to the bottom. >> Peter, and yet a proportion of the mites that fall are not just alive, but very lively, particularly when warmed up under a lamp. When I say "a proportion" I do not mean a precise or a large proportion as I have not counted. I should do so. A guesstimate would be somewhere between 10% and 20%. This is in the UK where most hives have a single brood chamber about 9" deep. I like open mesh floors and am gradually moving over to them as they appear to benefit the colony in other ways than that mentioned. First, it is easy to slide a tray in for a 24 hour count. This means I can monitor mite drop and therefore not treat unless numbers indicate that it is necessary. This will delay the onset of resistant mites and also save me the money and effort of treating, besides the mental reassurance that the comb honey from that hive should be uncontaminated by the chemical. This year I have elected not to treat those hives with a low single figure mite drop. They were last treated a year previously. Secondly, there appears to be a great reduction in chalk brood. Thirdly, and this may be connected, the hive is much drier. My most productive hive in this, rather poor, year was on a mesh floor, but it was also partly on 4.9 foundation so there was more than one variable. Chris