From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:57 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6D724ADC7 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03Fjr9r008596 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03Fjr9r008596@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:54 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0111A" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 66395 Lines: 1364 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: specialized honey (was granulation time) In-Reply-To: <200110311750.f9VHovY05570@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I've seen the same, even with corn syrup added. There are also many "honey mustard" mixes out that you have to hunt to find honey on the ingredient list, past the 1/2 dozen or so other sugars at the start of the list. Again corn syrup is usually the primary ingredient. Good luck on the shelf space hunt. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Hive honey mechanics In-Reply-To: <200110311701.f9VH1LY03336@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, With this schedule, when do you treat for mites? Do you treat for nosema? Karen -----Original Message----- From: Bill Truesdell ...extract in early summer....the major nectar flow ends in July. I put on an inner cover and the extracted supers go on top for the bees to clean out and take down.... pull the supers and extract them in September... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:35:05 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Hive honey mechanics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Oland wrote: > Bill, > With this schedule, when do you treat for mites? After I pull the fall honey, unless there are other indicators earlier. (I open drone cells and check during the first extraction. Also will put a oil covered paper under the mesh bottom and check mite drop.) > Do you treat for nosema? No. Use to because I thought the dysentary was nosema, but Tony showed me (in a spring inspection many years ago) that it was not. So have not had a problem since. Still have unused Fumidil-B in the freezer. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Honey sources MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lloyd Spear said: >> Virginia has a law (regulation?) requiring that if a >> honey label states a source, no less than 51% of the contents must be >> from that source. Moreover, upon request they are willing to test the honey >> and order honey removed from shelves if it does not meet the minimum >> requirements. >> They test the honey by examining the pollen grains. and David L. Green said: > That is hardly an equivalent ratio. Some plants are good pollen sources, > but poor nectar sources, and vice versa. I.e., 51% of the pollen being > blackberry pollen, does not necessarily translate to 51% of the nectar being > from blackberry. As a Virginia beekeeper, I am subject to the law at issue. I was at the same meeting as Lloyd, and took detailed notes on the same talk. The law (and the regulators) are MUCH less draconian than they might appear at first glance: a) The requirement of "51%" is very tolerant, when you think about it. I took away the impression that the regulators were telling beekeepers that they were fools to put MORE than just over half of the desirable honey in their bottles labeled by variety of nectar source. In my view, this was a bad move for everyone except the makers of big stainless steel mixing tanks. b) The verification by pollen analysis would be done simply to verify that ANY pollen of the claimed nectar source is in the honey at all. Beekeepers were being asked to keep some simple records of supering to "prove" their claims in the event of a question or dispute over varietal honey claims. Pollen analysis was offered as an alternative way that a beekeeper could prove his claims without keeping records. c) The study that prompted the regulatory move found some "honey" with no pollen at all. Zero. None. Impossible, given that no beekeeper or honey handlers in VA have the sort of flash-heat and micro-filtration set-up that would be capable of filtering out even the larger pollen grains. It was tough to sit in a meeting and hear that there were thieves among us. (Of course, one is forced to wonder why the presentation was made to the 50 or so beekeepers responsible enough to belong to the state association and come to meetings, out of an unknown total. Virginia has a reasonable number of beekeepers, but very low membership at both local and state levels, and dismal meeting attendance, perhaps due to the lack of an "open bar".) d) There was more than ample cause for some form of control being imposed. There have been some shenanigans going on with "Sourwood" honey, which is highly desired, commands top dollar, and is often sold to tourists who often know nothing more than the name "Sourwood". The worst example was a packer selling "Sourwood Honey", using "Sourwood" as a sort of brand name or apiary name. The honey clearly was not Sourwood honey at all (by taste, appearance, smell, and pollen). The packer tried to use the lame excuse of a "brand name" only after being confronted. The law as it stands is a "restraint of trade/equal treatment" lawsuit just waiting to happen. The State is happy to impose a new law against Virginia beekeepers and packers, but cannot seem to understand that existing laws have not been enforced against the multinational robber-baron conglomerates that sell the majority of honey bought by the Virginia consumers that they are charged with protecting: a) The "Target" chain of stores has a store brand called "American Pride". They sell honey called "American Pride Honey". Do I need to tell you where the honey in the jar comes from? I thought not. Not only do they have no pride, they have no shame. b) The laws on the books say that if the word "Honey" appears in the name of a product, that honey must be the primary sweetener used in the product. There is a long list of "national brand-name" products that have "Honey" in their names, but use only a tiny amount of honey, and a large amount of corn syrup. I could go on with more examples, but I am sure that the members of this list could make longer lists than I could. I'm sure that the regulators are nice fellows who are not "targeting" beekeepers, but they need to call their proctologists, and ask for assistance in locating their heads. jim farmageddon (Where we eat all the honey we can, and sell the rest.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 23:06:44 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Nov. 3 Staunton Meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone planning to attend from the Northern, VA / Leesburg area? Rodney in Leesburg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:31:58 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "beekeep" Newsgroups: sci.agriculture.beekeeping Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: apitherapyOn Wed, 31 Oct 2001 07:00:56 -0700, "Allen Dick" wrote: >> I have shipped bees to over 2000 people with MS and have never heard >> of this problem. > >That's a large sample of people. Are you in personal contact with some or >all of them? Is there a mailing list? My wife talks to them, I take care of the beekeeping end. I get along better with the bees than people. :) Our mailing list is our most prized asset. We protect our customers privacy and give it to no one. >Seems to me that it should be possible to assemble some kind of tabulated >statistical study of those who try it, those who keep with it, and out of >all those people, those who claim it works and those who don't. Moreover if >there are adverse effects, they should assert themselves visibly somewhere >in such a large group. The American Apitherapy Society should have done this but it is very poorly run. >Also seems to me that the official study being done in the US is employing >injections of either trapped bee venom or extracts with a syringe, rather >than examining what is already being done by practitioners. If so, what is >being studied is different in several ways from what apitheripists and >self-treated users of bee stings claim to be effective. This concerns me, >since the study may be barking up a wrong tree. You are absolutely correct. The problem is that there is no money in bee stings for the medical profession so they are not interested. >Is there any large scientific attempt to tabulate empirical data on MS and >bee stings? The only study that I have heard of is one being done by GW University. It is only looking at the safety of BVT. To get a true understanding of the problem you have to realize that the medical profession has not cured anything since polio. They now come up with treatments that require the patient to come back over and over for prescriptions. No prescriptions are required for bees so even if it worked they would not be interested. beekeep Greg Ferris Ferris Apiaries ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:24:51 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: George Fielder Subject: Re: To Paint or Not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/30/01 2:50:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, smoser@RURALCOM.NET writes: > does the inside of > the melter get painted black or is it painted white? >From a solar heat point of view paint it black and the heat inside will be higher. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:51:45 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: To Paint or Not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > does the inside of > > the melter get painted black or is it painted white? If you are planning to melt honey that will be used for food, any paint used must be food grade. allen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:48:02 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Murray McGregor Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy In-Reply-To: <200111022024.fA2KOkY27671@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed >You are absolutely correct. The problem is that there is no money in >bee stings for the medical profession so they are not interested. large snip >To get a true understanding of the problem you have to realize that >the medical profession has not cured anything since polio. They now >come up with treatments that require the patient to come back over and >over for prescriptions. No prescriptions are required for bees so >even if it worked they would not be interested. > >beekeep >Greg Ferris >Ferris Apiaries I think that this is another example of a somewhat embittered position against professionals I have come across several times before and indeed have crossed swords with others about before. Now, admittedly I do not live in the US, but from experience of visiting there I find that people are broadly similar to ourselves. Therefore to decry the medical profession as ONLY interested in the profit motive by making them come back again and again is, from my experience, both unfair and untrue. As in all professions there will be a (small?) percentage of rogues, but most doctors will be proud of success in treating a condition, not consciously trying to 'almost cure' you so that you have to keep coming back for more. They are human beings with the same spectrum of motivations as the rest of society, and doing good to his/her fellow being is one of them. Injected bee venom works. We KNOW this from within our own family. To suggest that it may not have the same effect (or side effect) as that administered direct from the bees sting because of the difference in delivery system is just speculation, but of a kind which, coming from a 'natural' advocate, gains adherants without there being any serious evidence to support it. Possibly more crucial factors involved in making naturally stung venom better than injected (if indeed it is even so) would be a combination of Faith and Placebo effects. If you really believe the natural way is best then it will probably turn out to be skewed that way. Nothing wrong with that if it works, but don't bad mouth the other camp. They will be most likely as genuine in their efforts as you are, just holding a different view. -- Murray McGregor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 00:15:15 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg Ferris said (to Allen Dick, in sci.agriculture beekeeping) about apitherapy for MS and other chronic problems: > To get a true understanding of the problem you have to realize that > the medical profession has not cured anything since polio. They now > come up with treatments that require the patient to come back over and > over for prescriptions. No prescriptions are required for bees so > even if it worked they would not be interested. I read the above and laughed so hard that some very good single-malt ended up being spilled. The above is exactly the sort of petulant view that, if persistent, will insure that apitherapy stays a "lunatic fringe" treatment forever. Ask any doctor. The "medical profession" is made up of people who work hard every day to promote non-prescription therapies, such as: 1) Eating right 2) Not smoking 3) Exercising a bit ...but most PATIENTS insist on a "magic pill" for everything, since it requires no effort on their part. I certainly have more than my fair share of paranoia, but even I don't imagine a gunman behind every grassy knoll. There is no massive conspiracy. There is simply a lack of money to fund studies. It is expensive to fund the extensive studies required to prove that bee venom is "safe and effective". Is it any wonder that the makers of bottled bee venom products are the ones to fund such studies? But is there a "market" in bee-sting therapy? Sure there is! Mr. Ferris is proof that there is. His 2000 customers are a gold mine at even minimal rates, with no real expense other than shipping. I don't see any difference between selling bees, selling the bottled venom, or selling prescription drugs. All require the patient to (as Mr. Ferris said) "come back, over and over". Alternatively, one could teach an MS patient how to keep an observation hive (or even a full-size hive). Of course, once you teach a few MS patients some beekeeping skills, one might see teachings spread from patient to patient, and find many MS patients learning to keep bees on a small scale. Thus endth the gold mine. So, who has the moral high ground? The doctors, making money from writing prescriptions, or the beekeeper, making money selling bees rather than teaching people how to raise their own? It is the old "give a man a fish" versus "teach a man to fish" routine, and I don't need to point out which is the only moral choice, do I? jim farmageddon (Special this month - get stung for free!) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:50:16 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeCrofter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Health care as delivered in the US is a billion dollar industry. The markup on chemotherapy drugs is near 400% or better. The doctors through the AMA lobby congress with many millions of dollars to keep doctors in short supply so as not to lessen fees. The drug companies do likewise with an even greater supply of funds. In fact drug companies get a tax credit for research and many pay less in income taxes than the average citizen yet sell the drugs at a higher price in the US than in Mexico or Canada. Our senior citizens charter buses to fill prescriptions across the border so they can take their medicines and still eat. I believe to practice apitherapy you have to make yourself judgment proof as well. Didn't Mraz put everything he owned in his daughters name for just that reason and give his apitherapy for free? Look at all the difficulty in just getting an acaricide approved to treat bees, now try to get bees approved to treat humans. Wait until the PETA folks get wind of this, each sting is a bee's death. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:13:04 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: mite damage by A.m.m. was SMR bees on small cell In-Reply-To: <200110221244.f9MCi8Y23465@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200110221244.f9MCi8Y23465@listserv.albany.edu>, Mike Tooley writes >I think most of your 'resistant'feral hives are just swarms from >treated hives. I had a call today to look into moving two colonies away from a field to make way for cultivation. In a future year the landowner may well acquire bees and restock the hives (the owner has let them all go). The hives had not been looked at for 4 years. Varroa came in 1996 possibly 1997. So they have not been treated at all. Two hives were empty, one eaten out by wax moth (the other left unexamined in a briar patch). One colony was showing distinct deformed wing virus, with ejected small adults and many bees with deformed wings. Comb was diagonally across several frames. It was obviously a swarm of maybe 2 years ago, given the used state of the comb. I gave it one strip of apistan. The second colony was strong and showed no sign of deformed wing virus, though I did not lift out any frames given the bees were only just flying. All comb was in the original frames. There was at least 60lb honey in the hive - not a great deal for this year especially with the second super having very little in it. I gave it 2 strips of apistan. So, either we have some degree of resistance or the hive has been reoccupied quickly before any serious loss of comb to wax moth, once or even twice. The colony will be given OMF next spring and watched for signs of tolerance. To attempt to help along my embryonic tolerance study programme I will give frames of drone foundation or slip in some drawn drone comb at the bottom of 2 or 3 frames and get a bit of varroa development to see if they switch on grooming (with mite damage) since it has been suggested this will happen when the varroa numbers rise above some unknown threshold. It's an interesting time here given the mechanism may be widespread. Any colony that did not develop dwv will get the same treatment, many having been treated a bit late this time. Unfortunately 2 apiaries were treated late and showed a high proportion of colonies with at least a little dwv but most were still laying with up to 4 frames with brood including 1 with eggs, patches about 15cm diameter so they should recover well. As night temperatures at the moment are typically around 7C the colonies to be moved will be given new floors a.s.a.p. to reduce weight and ease carrying (they have floors which are also 4-legged stands and quite substantial) and moved one morning when the temperature gets to at least 10C and the forecast is for at least 12C (most days at the moment it is higher). They are still getting in lots of pollen and there's still some uncapped stores so they seem to be bringing in nectar from somewhere. I have seen blackberry and dandelion flowers opening again! -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 11:09:53 +1300 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Nick Wallingford Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > As in all professions there will be a (small?) percentage of rogues, but > most doctors will be proud of success in treating a condition, not > consciously trying to 'almost cure' you so that you have to keep coming > back for more. They are human beings with the same spectrum of > motivations as the rest of society, and doing good to his/her fellow > being is one of them. Within the population of 'medical', you can also be confident that will always be some who want/need to be recognised for discovery and/or excellence. And you can be sure that if something does work, and can be demonstrated to work to a degree of confidence, that these 'lean, hungry' types would ***kill each other*** (Yes, I know; not a good description...) to be the first to have their names associated with it. That is, it doesn't matter about a medical researcher's preconceptions or orientation or bias - if there is a chance that some sort of therapy or treatment would work, you can be assured that they would be wanting to be the one to 'discover' it. While not one to often defend the medical research professionals, I'd say that in the area of desire for recognition, they can be shown to excel. They would not be able to maintain a credible conspiracy to avoid apitherapy... Nick Wallingford nickw@beekeeping.co.nz http://www.beekeeping.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Most who are in apitherapy keep far away from "practicing medicine" and for good reason. Stinging people has risks. Plus, there is a lot of hype but limited proof. I can testify that my arthritis was cured by bee stings, but I know of others who had no relief. I have met people who were aided by stings in coping with MS, but I know others where nothing happened. I also know some who really were reacting to the Placebo effect and sweared by bee stings, but they were no better physically than before, but they had a better attitude. If Doctors and Pharmaceutical Companies had the same results as Apitherapy they would be sued into bankruptcy and we would all call them quacks because they could not deliver consistent results. Unfortuantely, that is true for most "natural" medicines. Especially since that was the medicine we relied on when our live spans were less than 40 years. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Fw: apitherapy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BeeCrofter@AOL.COM said: > I believe to practice apitherapy you have to make yourself judgment proof > as well. Didn't Mraz put everything he owned in his daughters name for just > that reason and give his apitherapy for free? This is yet a big reason why it makes all sorts of sense to teach apitherapy patients to self-administer bee stings from bees that they raise themselves. Beekeepers get stung by bees. This is an nearly unavoidable aspect of the hobby/profession. If the stings happen to help mitigate the symptoms of a beekeeper's pre-existing medical condition, great! But no one is "liable" for the actions of apprentice beekeepers except themselves, since they undertake beekeeping by choice. > Look at all the difficulty in just getting an acaricide approved to treat > bees, now try to get bees approved to treat humans. Such "approval" is only required if one wishes to turn bees into tiny expensive winged syringes in the hands of the medical profession. Why would anyone want that when they are now as close to "free" as anything could be? jim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Sturman Subject: Re: Apitherapy Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi All, I felt I had to throw in a comment or two about the recent comments about apitherapy. While I somewhat agree with the notion that the AMA is uninterested in bee products for the treatment of arthritis, MS and the large list of other less-common maladies that can be treated using apitherapy methods, I don't agree with the idea that this represents the average American doctor. The truth is that most doctors trained in the US know very little, if anything, about bees, and their many gifts. Apitherapy needs to be a grassroots movement for it to make any impact on American medicine. It relies on us, the beekeepers; the suppliers of these valuable medicines, for the populace to learn about them. Good doctors will learn and expand from their patients. The American Apitherapy Society (AAS) is not as effective as possible. They also don't have any money. No surprise there. How many beekeepers do you know belong to the AAS, or have even heard of it? While there is a whole separate list devoted to apitherapy issues (apitherapy-l; go to http://www.apitherapy.com for more info on that), the community on this list can also carry the apitherapy torch. I have been interested in apitherapy since I began beekeeping several years ago. I participated in the valuable email course conducted by Dr. Stephan Stangaciu (an MD from Romania). I recently received a copy of the CD-ROM called "Treatise of Apitherapy" created by the Standing Commission of Apitherapy from Romania. The CD-ROM is a very beautiful interface for tapping into the world of apitherapy. The CD-ROM contains hundreds of articles, pictures, and references about all aspects of apitherapy. Created by some of the world's experts on apitherapy, the CD includes information on the many medicinal uses of honey, pollen, propolis, bee venom, etc. I apologize for the plug, but without being a member of the AAS (which I am not), it is unlikely that any of us heard about the publication of this thing [one indication of the ineffectiveness of the AAS], and it is worth knowing about. Several years ago, only "health nuts" knew about the properties of arnica, gingko, gingerroot, Echinacea, and other herbs and naturally-occurring compounds that greatly enhance health, healing, and vitality. Now you get this stuff in every supermarket in America, in lots of different forms; even in soft drinks. We do not need to rely on doctors to spread the word about our "health" products. One of the prime objectives of my local bee club, The Catskill Mountain Beekeepers Club (http://www.catskillbees.org) is to "Educate the community about the joys, skills and fruits of beekeeping." This obviously includes bee products used in apitherapy. Our club contains several members who either administer bee stings to themselves or others and have lots to share about this practice. I don't think a meeting goes by without someone piping up about it. The bottom line here is that there is plenty that each of us can do to forward this work besides relying on the AMA or your local doctor to prescribe something. Actions you can take are: o Start to include information about the health aspects of honey and pollen in your talks about bees. O Educate your fellow beekeepers about the other products we can get from our hives. o Ask the arthritis and MS suffers you know if they have considered trying alternative methods of treatment (bee-stinging) o Mention bee-stinging and the use of honey, pollen, propolis, etc. to any physicians you know. o Support the AAS (or your local Apitherapy organization) with money and membership. I have listed just a few things to try. As you find out more about the other treasures inside your beehives, you will find ways to express that value and then sell those items to your customers. ___________ // >8(())))- \\ John Sturman Blue Moon Farm Lexington, NY -74.38711, 42.23688 john@sturman.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 03:20:53 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: J J Harrier Subject: Re: tiny print on labels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the UK it is common to find honey in the shops with pictures of thatched cottages or similar and a brand name implying that it is British, but labelled "produce of more than one country" in very tiny print to stay within the Law. We use the tiny tiny print for the line "Produce of more than one bee" on our labels, having done the maths and worked out that it isn't possible for just one bee to make a whole pound of honey. J. J. > Yet, I see labeled honey all over. My favorite so far: Blueberry Honey, > then in VERY small print: from wildflowers in the region in maine that > blueberries are raised (or similar). Cost: $6 for 4 oz. > > Karen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 15:02:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Adrian Wenner Subject: Why science is slow to accept new ideas Comments: cc: barry@birkey.com, phwells@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recently, several subscribers contributed to the question of why progress is so slow in science, notably George Imrie and Peter Borst. Much of the problem lies with the mentorship training of scientists. For instance, virtually no one in biology gets exposed to the philosophy, psychology, and sociology of science (that is, science as a process, not as a way of gaining ultimate truth). Strong biases held by major professors become inculated into the minds of their students. The peer review process (made up of such professors and their former students) then tends to maintain the status quo rather than serve as a vehicle for rapid progress in science. (See the epigraph in my signature, below.) I covered this material in an invited review paper, as follows: 1997 Wenner, A.M. The role of controversy in animal behavior. Pages 3-37 in Greenberg, C. and E. Tobach (eds). Comparative Psychology of Invertebrates:The Field and Laboratory Study of Insect Behavior. Garland Publishing, New York. As you will note, the editors of that volume apparently thought highly enough of that contribution that they placed it first in their volume. Controversy erupts in science when someone proposes an idea that disrupts prevailing thinking. An ecologist once summarized the slow process that results, as follows (paraphrased): 1) That new idea is heresy! 2) Evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the old idea! --- and eventually --- 3) We've known that all along! As physicist Andrew Strominger wrote: "The history of physics is the history of giving up cherished ideas." The history of biology is the same; it just takes biologists longer than physicists to abandon cherished ideas. ********** If enough subscribers show interest, perhaps Barry Birkey might wish to include that publication in the following website: http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm) Although lengthy, I can also photocopy the article at my own expense and mail it those truly interested in some of the reasons why scientific progress is so slow. Adrian Adrian M. Wenner (805) 963-8508 (home phone) 967 Garcia Road (805) 893-8062 (UCSB FAX) Santa Barbara, CA 93106 [http://www.beesource.com/pov/wenner/index.htm] ******************************************************************** * * "However broad-minded one may be, he is always to some extent * the slave of his education and of his past." * * Emile Duclaux (1896; 1920 translation) * ******************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:48:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Lackey, Raymond" Subject: Boy Scout Merit Badge Update? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I recently contacted our regional center of Boy Scouts asking about the Beekeeping Merit badge. They told me it had been eliminated. When I told them that I had understood that it was reinstated, they knew nothing about it. It has been a while since the reinstatement activity has been mentioned on the web. Does anyone have an update? David Eyre's old web page on the subject seems to have either moved or is discontinued. Raymond J. Lackey Sweet Pines Apiary President (again) - Long Island Beekeepers Association web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html email home: lackeyray@tianca.com email office: raymond.lackey@baesystems.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:33:26 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Hamilton Subject: what are rules for kosher honey? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We were asked last night if our honey was kosher. Searching the net does seem to give me a list of what makes honey kosher or non-kosher. Anyone know? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:20:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: what are rules for kosher honey? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Hamilton wrote: > > We were asked last night if our honey was kosher. Searching the net does > seem to give me a list of what makes honey kosher or non-kosher. Anyone know? It appears that honey is kosher. >From a search: http://www.ohr.org.il/ask/ask018.htm#Q1 (Ask the Rabbi) Why is honey Kosher? Balint from Grinell in Iowa writes: I have the following question that no one could answer yet: Why is honey Kosher? I thought that the product of non-Kosher animals was not Kosher as well. Bees are not Kosher, so why is honey Kosher? I appreciate your time and hope you know the answer. Thank you, Dear Balint, The Mishna in Tractate Bechorot states: "That which comes from something which is Tameh [non-Kosher] is Tameh, and that which comes of that which is Tahor [Kosher] is Tahor." So you were right, Balint-the product of a non-Kosher animal is not Kosher. So why is bee-honey Kosher? The Talmud in the same Tractate quotes a Beraita (a Halachic teaching from the time of the Mishna) which says: "Why did they say that bee-honey is permitted? Because even though they bring it into their bodies, it is not a product of their bodies [it is stored there but not produced there]." All the Sages of the Mishna agree with this ruling. One of them, Rabbi Yaakov, disagrees with the reasoning. He claims that bee-honey is Kosher based on his interpretation of Vayikra 11:21. According to him, the verse prohibits one to eat a flying insect, but not that which is excreted from it. Maimonides codifies bee-honey as being Kosher, as does the Shulchan Aruch. You may wonder: How could one even think that bee-honey is not Kosher-the Torah refers to the Land of Israel as "a Land flowing with milk and honey"! Certainly the Torah would not choose a non-Kosher product as a means for describing the beauty of the Land of Israel! This may come as a surprise, but the honey mentioned in the verse about "milk and honey" is not bee-honey-rather it is fig-honey. The Talmud in Tractate Berachot tells us that another verse "It is a Land of wheat, barley, grapes, figs and pomegranates-a Land of olives and honey"-is referring to date-honey. Sources: Tractate Bechorot, pages 5b, 7b. The Codes of Maimonides, Laws of Forbidden Foods 3:3. Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, 81:8. Tractate Megillah, page 6a, Rashi. Chumash, Book of Devarim, 8:8. Tractate Berachot, page 41b, Rashi. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:11:26 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Karen Oland Subject: Re: Boy Scout Merit Badge Update? In-Reply-To: <200111061219.fA6CJkY26463@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TN still has an active troop with bees in Nashville/Franklin area. At state bee mtg last month, they said the badge was gone, no other troop in states still had bees. -----Original Message----- From:Lackey, Raymond I recently contacted our regional center of Boy Scouts asking about the Beekeeping Merit badge. They told me it had been eliminated. When I told them that I had understood that it was reinstated, they knew nothing about it. It has been a while since the reinstatement activity has been mentioned on the web. Does anyone have an update? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:40:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jenny Reed Subject: Re: what are rules for kosher honey? In-Reply-To: <200111061346.fA6DkqY29364@listserv.albany.edu> from "Dave Hamilton" at Nov 06, 2001 07:33:26 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > We were asked last night if our honey was kosher. Searching the net does > seem to give me a list of what makes honey kosher or non-kosher. Anyone know? > Honey is inherently kosher. That is, it comes out of the beehive kosher. You can, however, make it non-kosher by the handling of it. However, it is very simple to avoid doing that. Use only tools that are used only for honey. Buckets, stirring spoons, the honey press, strainers, jars - whatever it is you use, make sure it has never been used for anything except honey. Kosher is about cleanliness, about separation. Since kosher acts on a spiritual plane, you cannot "cleanse" a utensil with soap and water. If you have put meat on a dish once, then it is always a meat dish. If you later put a dairy product on that same dish, then it is soiled forever - no good, not kosher. Therefore, the easiest way to insure your honey stays kosher is to keep it clean by using items used ONLY for honey. If you do this, then you may tell your clients that your honey is kosher. (But, you may not tell them it is "certified" kosher. Just as with any "certification", there are certifying organizations - in this case, groups of rabbis - that must certify you before you can claim "certified" kosher.) If you use items that were even once used for something other than honey, or if you bought items used and you don't know for sure, then you may not tell your clients that you have kosher honey, because you have rendered the honey not kosher through contamination. HOpe this helps :) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:51:32 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Boy Scout Merit Badge Update? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The BSA website still has it as an active merit badge, http://www.scouting.org/nav/about.html Also, from the NHB website http://www.nhb.org/articles/beebadge.html Quote Thanks to that effort and the hours of work by many others and the receipt of many calls and letters from concerned beekeepers who began as Boy Scouts, Mr. John Dalrymple, Advancement Director, Boy Scouts of America stated that the national review committee had reconsidered this badge and that on February 9, 1999 had decided to reinstate the merit badge. Unquote So it seems it is still active as a merit badge. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:21:49 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Kosher honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am far from knowledgeable on the subject, and my religion is not Jewish= . =20 Nonetheless, I once made reasonably in-depth inquiries and think I learne= d: 1. Honey may be deemed Kosher 2. Kosher Honey must be so "anointed" by a Rabbi. 3. The Rabbi's # 1 concern (and perhaps his/her only concern) is going t= o be the cleanliness of the processing operation. Hope this helps, Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 15:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Why science is slow to accept new ideas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It isn't. The entire point of the referenced MIT article was that new ideas that were often quickly accepted, and much more often when proof or verification was available, which is more than a bit of a no-brainer. I think it would be better to re-phrase the subject line to: "Why proving or disproving new ideas is often slow". "Why the peer-review process is such a pain." "Why philosophy about science is like dancing about bricklaying." "Why a 'paradigm' is worth only $0.20" Here's something a tad more useful to the members of this list - an actual critical-thinking checklist for detecting "baloney" masquerading as "science", from none other than Scientific American: www.sciam.com/2001/1101issue/1101skeptic.html As an aside, the MIT article referenced: www.technologyreview.com/magazine/nov01/insight.asp is just one of thousands of refutations of Thomas Kuhn, who coined the make-me-gag phrase "paradigm shift". Kuhn was completely discredited in the 1960s, when he published his book, "The Structure Of Scientific Revolutions". It is not often that one book prompts an entire book of point-by-point refutation, but "Deconstructing Scientific Revolutions" was just that - a entire book of corrections. Mentioning Kuhn to any self-respecting practitioner in the sciences these days is similar to waving a Taliban flag in front of a Blackhawk helicopter. By now, even I feel sorry for Kuhn. He gets bruised more often than Wiley E. Coyote in the "Roadrunner" cartoons. Kuhn's approach to interpreting the history and process of science is called "Retroactive Clairvoyance" by scientists, and "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" by the layman. For anyone interested, here's a decent critique of Kuhn that keeps a fairly even tone. www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/jun00/kuhn.htm jim farmageddon (where we play the rock tune "She Blinded Me With Science" at volume levels that can deafen) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Vos Subject: APITERAPY. To help everyone understand the benefits of apitherapy. Last year I have done a survey among some 100 M.S. patients in the US to be able to find the real cause of this disabling disease for which doctors have no answer. All of them were using APITHERAPY from 15 to 40 bee stings every other day, and as a beekeeper myself. I have to say it takes courage to do this. The benefit of bee venom is only to reduce the pain and as such some of the discomfort that comes with Multiple Scleroses. Bee venom does by no means cure M.S. since it is a mechanical disease as a result of ruptured sheaths that contains the nerves of the human body. The element in our daily food that cause these ruptures to occur is UNDIGESTED animal fat, in particular from pork. It is such a pity that millions of dollars are wasted for research by medical scientist, blaming smoking,drinking, asbestos and even so many other outside causes. The real cause of most if not all physical problems is no more and no less than our daily food and in particular the way it is digested. Our food contains 4 major elements: Sugar, Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates and the clever scientists have already discovered that failure to digest sugar causes diabetes. But what about the other three??? For more information see my web page at: http://members.tripod.lycos.nl/health2000/ or mail me direct at: vos@doctor4u.com. However I am only a homeopath/iridologist, in other words a quack, so why should scientists listen to me. Besides doctors cannot make money on food, chemical prescriptions are far more lucrative. On top of that, they have no way to diagnose this failure to digest food elements. John M. Vos, Naturopath/iridologist and hobby beekeeper. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 21:20:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "From the Gussow's of Tucson,Arizona - Don't worry it's a dry heat!" Subject: Re: what are rules for kosher honey? In-Reply-To: <200111061347.fA6DlpY29387@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to all! Thank you Jenny Reed too. There are taboos that must be kept out of the honey house and bottling house when it comes to "Kosher" and while it may or may not occur to others I will explain. There are three food sources in the world of Kosher. Two are animal products: Milk and Meat. The third deals with honey known as "Parve" or Neutral that would allow someone who cooks to mix it with only one or the other but not both at the same time. The separations must be maintained at all occasions for those people who want to keep Kosher. This can be expensive as the "Kitchen" will be separated into two or three separate instillations including all the equipment necessary to provide for the food service of a home or institution. I have that experience first hand as my mother was the "Mechgiach" Overseer of Kashrut for the local conservative synagogue. Kashrut is the rules of keeping kosher. Most products are marked for kosher use such as a U with a circle around it as one example. If the mark on the label for kosher defines it as "D" for Dairy or "M" for meat they have some or all products that contain those symbols. Parve will be spelled out since it is unique. See Kain and Able from whence the difference occurs. As far as it goes the definition is still in the air as what is "Kosher Honey" as the process and the Langstroth hive components are in question. The Honey Extractor and the very frames of comb are still in question. These operations would have to be under some sanctions. However the very use of a queen excluder is in question as well. This is a maze that, IMPOV, a systematic means to avoid the issue. Section honey is not exempt either as the ,excuse the pun, wax foundation is under question as well. There are some who will allow the complete thing to occur under supervision and then there are some who will not consider it at all or so far out in left field that they have been "Phobic" about the subject to begin with. Finding a sanction is difficult and costly. The rest is correct like Jenny Reed did illustrated in her contribution to the subject at hand. Honey Extractors are a real question mark as Jenny did mention "Wax Press" this is the use of an ancient method to glean wax and honey. In most Kosher options and views this is the only prescribed way of gleaning honey. While I ,IMPOV, think that it is not a feasible means nor a hygienic method it might just be demanded in areas that would "Certify as Kosher". Here I must interject that an opinion is that of a Scholar(s) of Talmud and there are many. (I hope this complies with this site since I am stating fact here and not my own view.) Extractors and power knives and even the manual ones are in deep question as well when they do not understand just how the operation is preformed. The question however can expand if you really ask "Kosher Honey and for which type of Kosher are you talking about as well?" I may interject this by telling you that there is a single Holiday in Jewish calendar that segregates Kosher as well. What we have here is entirely different situation. The Holiday is Passover and requires that a separate set of equipment that can only be used for the production of that particular holiday. It is the only time were there is a complete and segregation of equipment. This would go a little to far in the pocket book for anyone who trying to run an enterprise unless you do have a sizeable amount of fall honey and the cash to buy additional machinery. These are some of the facts but I have to disagree with some of the other things that have to be placed back and reconsidered. It would be nice to think that every thing is in place now to understand all these rules but there is "more than one way to skin a cat" in the contamination of the two main food groups. Trial by fire is one and can be done to some degree by a "blow torch" on metal objects that come in contact with (Food or Honey). Big Job there! But it is like re-casting the whole equipment as new and that must be done under the supervision of a "Rabbinical Inspector" who must be on the premises to see to it that it will be done correctly. Soap and water method must then be preformed. If this is just a little to deep for most it is meant to be just that. It's also called "Commitment" as this is a requirement as well. This gets into some really troublesome areas that I do not have the fully knowledge to convey at present. It gets dicey here and you need an "Expert in Rabbinical Kashrut" to define these methods so that they are in accordance with the "Laws of Kashrut". Most of the Inspectors have great knowledge of the process that would be done and sanctions that would allow that person to "Certify" the operation. Rabbinical Inspectors are well healed in the common laws of sanitation as well as the ones that they are there to inspect or oversee. So static and dynamic operational operations are looked upon as the same to make it. The seal of approval is the symbol of the certification of the organization. As it is in the honey business there are only two companies that preform this beyond any question one is in Italy and another in Turkey. There are many packers of late that do have the mark of "Kosher" on them but the discriminating user will either agree and purchase or disagree and avoid by not purchasing the product. What some packers are getting away with are in great question as there own certification might be in question as without an inspection is no more than "hearsay" and improper validation. I hope that I have aided in this discussion? The other products of the hive are also under question here as well and the production of "Royal Jelly" should be avoided as taboo. The Rabbinical Organizations that sanction these symbols on labels are in trouble as much as the packer who pays them for it. Kosher means "clean" but it should also mean "peace of mind" as well since that is what the consumer is buying as well. That subject is controversial in its own statement and that of the "Packers" who might just have a hard time sleeping at nights. I might be a critic of the practices that are overlooked, but then I'm as well as anyone else is also a consumer as well. Respectfully Submitted Harvey Gussow Tucson, Az. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:39:43 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ellen Anglin Subject: Re: what are rules for kosher honey? In-Reply-To: <200111061541.fA6FfxY04522@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It be possible to clean metal items to make them acceptable for Kosher use. A friend of mine "kosherized" his kitchen, and for metal items, like pots and pans, it is possible to make them spiritually clean by heating them to a certain temperature- crews that do this to a persons kitchen may use a blow torch or the like to heat up and clean an oven or metal cookware. More often, the person just buys all new stuff where possible. Contact your local orthodox church if you are seriously considering going for the Kosher market. The rules for most foods are very complex, but the ones for honey are fairly simple- being able to say you have checked out and confirmed the rules with a rabbi will put your customers minds at ease. First hand information is always better than second when it comes to regulations like this. If someone is concerned about the kosherness of your honey, sell them comb honey, in basswood section boxes, rounds or casettes. (Packed by the bees, not man.) The kosher rules, as explained to me by my friend, were all originally written about *comb* honey. It is natural honey, in the comb that is inherently kosher, because it is untouched by the hand of man, and is threfore pure. The kosher rules start getting complex when man starts messing with natures perfection. Ellen in Michigan Jenny Reed wrote: > If you use items that were even once used for something other than honey, or if you bought items used and you don't know for sure, then you may not tell your clients that you have kosher honey, because you have rendered the honey not kosher through contamination. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume on Yahoo! Careers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 10:23:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "C.R. Crowell" Subject: Re: Kosher Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I sell honey, certified kosher, to area synagogues for Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. There is a ritual among Jews of dipping apples in honey during their New Year observances. I also give many presentations around this time of year to their Hebrew students, talking about the history of bees and beekeeping. I found a local "mashgiach", a rabbi who is in the business of certifying that foods and establishments that sell food adhere to the rules of Kashrut. Originally I contacted each of the two major organizations that perform this service, the Conservative Union and Kosher Overseers of America. Both organizations wanted extremely steep fees up front, which were not economical for me at all. These organizations authorize the use of their "hechsher", a symbol like the circle with the "U" in it, that certifies the products as kosher, and further identifies the product as being meat, dairy, or parve (neutral). As prior contributors have said, honey is a parve product, and may be eaten with dairy or meat, but should be stored separate. If honey comes into contact with a pot used for meat, for example, then it is a "meat" food and can only be eaten as such. First, keep in mind that for many Jews, particularly reform Jews, honey is considered intrinsically kosher, and no supervision is required. In fact many reform Jews are uncomfortable with the role that the mashgiach has in more traditional Jewish groups. For orthodox Jews this is not the case, of course, and they will be very reluctant to eat your honey unless they feel comfortable that you have followed the steps needed to maintain Kashrut observance. Even if they are comfortable, it would be awkward for them to offer your honey to their friends unless it has a hechsher that is acceptable to them. Between the reform and the orthodox groups (which would include the Lubatvitcher and Hasidic movements) are the conservative Jews, who observe the dietary laws, but are not as strict as the orthodox, nor as relaxed as the reform groups. The basic rules are simple: Use utensils purchased new, and used only for honey extraction. Keep your equipment and extraction area as clean as possible. If you warm honey for filtering, that means the pots must only be used for honey. You are asking for trouble if you use pots used for meat or dairy as part of your extraction and bottling process. Decide who you customers are going to be. You can ask a conservative rabbi to be mashgiach, and come and supervise. He or she may ask you to take certain steps, like filling pots with boiling water before using, or may ask you to clean certain items in their presence. They may not want a fee, but I believe they are offering a service and some payment, if only a token payment, is appropriate. In my opinion, you may give them honey but the payment, even a token one, should be strictly a separate transaction. This avoids the appearance of a conflict of interest. I worked with a conservative rabbi who was eager to supervise at my invitation, because he wanted to show his congregation that he had an active interest in getting them to adhere to the dietary laws. Whomever you select as "mashgiach" you should endeavor to make into an expert on bees and honey. Finally, a word about comb honey. If you prepare it for immediate consumption I believe it is Kosher, and could be subject to supervision if you wanted to sell it to a wider group. However, if you take the step of freezing it before selling it, as is the customary practice, I do not believe it can be regarded as Kosher. The act of freezing assumes the likely presence of wax worm eggs, which are certainly non-kosher. There is historical evidence that wax worms did exist in Biblical times, but I can find no references to the historical preparation of comb honey. I believe the only way to regard it as being kosher is to store it at room temp past 30 days. If there are eggs and they hatch, it's non-kosher. If they don't hatch, it is OK. This is not a rabbinical determination, but my own opinion based on the rules of Kashrut as I have studied them. /Curtis Crowell New Jersey