From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:58 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC2CD24ADEE for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO49010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO49010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0112B" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 163564 Lines: 3443 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 01:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Swarm traps Comments: To: Lloyd Spear Trapping swarms is one of the key management techniques practiced by beekeepers in South Africa, and Africa. As said in some of the other replies, you need swarms. So you need to put the trap boxes in the right location. During the autumn in South Africa, for example, if you go on a trapping expedition to the commercial eucalyptus grandis forests, you can catch hundreds upon hundreds of swarms in a few months. The approach to optimum trap boxes hinges on age of furniture, and scenting. Use the oldest hives available, and the oldest frames. Supply the frames with strip foundation of about an inch. The next part, for beeswax and propolis, is critical. Using a paintbrush, paint the inside of the hive and around the entrance with molten beeswax (molten beeswax goes a long, long way). Then take about five warm, peanut sized pieces of propolis and massage these to make contact with the hive entrance. Then, and again, this is critical, blast the propolis (but not into oblivion) with a plumber's gas torch. If you have more propolis, do the same thing at the top four corners of the hive (with the lid off). If you are in a location with prolific swarms, you can replace some of the strip foundation frames with frames with comb. If you can place the hives on permanent buildings, place them at corners of the roof, preferably facing east (west in the northern hemisphere). If you place them in trees, they should be at least eight foot off the ground. For scutellata, we also use very low cost plastic trap boxes that hold five old brood frames. You can see pictures of these at: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/ Click on pictures, South Africa, etc. The catch box you see with bees in occupation was randomly selected by the bees. Nearby, there were empty ten-frame wooden hives, but the bees wanted the plastic one. It was about three feet off the ground. Now, don't ask me to explain that! In the commercial forests, a really big swarm will settle on one of these plastic catch boxes. But, because the swarm is so big, the bees build comb on the outside of the box, ignoring the interior. In due course, they issue swarms that hopefully occupy the interior of other plastic catch boxes. We often place these catch boxes in contiguous lines of 100. After trapping a swarm, you should wait a minimum of two weeks before transferring the bees and frames to a new location and proper hive. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 05:30:04 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aleksander Mihajlovski Subject: Any information about Rifampicin? James Fischer wrote: > Wow, what a week for proving that "common sense" is anything but common!< > The drug-resistant strain of T.B. is really nasty. Rifampicin is one of the few drugs left that can fight it...< The process of realization sometimes can be negatively exciting. I personally wouldn't know anything about Rifampicin before it show up in this Bulgarian beekeeping product. Here, from information's I gathered up until now, I can say that Rifampicin is obviously used as ingredient of number other veterinary drugs - my question is: which one, how many - and in which countries? Did anyone know something? I am sure that lot of people on this List at least can ask some veterinarian friend(s) about this. Knowing that Bulgarians usually are not "inventors of hot water" I can suppose that this antibiotic is registered for veterinarian purposes in at least one another, much more powerful country (Russia maybe?) Also I can say that I have respect for their considerations connected with metod of applying. They obviously had taking care of antibiotic ending in hive products and was prone to invent another way of application, lot less dangerous than, for instance, dusting. BUT, I have problem with respecting their prescription of using the drug in preventive. In the raport of their first research, required for registration purposes, they didn't find any residue of Rifampicin, 10 days after application, BUT I do not believe in that, because I do not know the methods they were using for testing that. For me it is impossible to expect that if you put something strange in the hive, that nothing of it will be left, or in this case, that bees will clean it totally. This is specially important if you know, as I know at the present time, that bacteria's build resistance to Rifampicin very, very fast - and that is the reason why Rifampicin is never applied alone, but together with other antibiotics - in any case, including humans (T.B.). Also, I am almost sure that nobody knows for how long Rifampicin is active in honey or wax! I must point out another problem: in my country, also in neighbouring countries, and I am sure in others, veterinarians are usually promoters of using drugs instead no-drug methods when dealing with livestock illnesses. Most of them had never been closer than 2 meters from any beehive, or they never opened a hive in their life, but they are usually obliged from governments to gave advises, prescriptions or permissions. Therefore I am not surprised when one of our veterinarians stated that without antibiotics beekeeping will be ruined in one year! Do I need to look surprised when after few years Rifampicin will be officially registered and advised for using in beekeeping in my country or Your's? No I do not think so - because veterinarians will not ask us for opinion. So, I must agree with You: "common sense" is anything but common! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:20:12 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: BEE-L FAQ and Guidelines (Revised DEC 8, 2001) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEE-L is a moderated discussion list with published standards & guidelines. Discussion covers a wide range of bee-related subjects. Anyone with an interest in bees is welcome to join. GUIDELINES: BEE-L has rules that everyone who wishes to post messages to the list must observe. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L for details. In particular, DO NOT INCLUDE QUOTES OF PREVIOUS ARTICLES WHEN REPLYING. Contributions including quotes that are not absolutely necessary to understanding will usually be rejected WITHOUT NOTICE. FAQ: Our FAQ is our archive of posts running back more than a decade. Every post that makes the list (and well over 90% do) goes into these archives and can be easily found by a search at any time now or in the future. We are very pleased at the high quality and wide variety of input from members all over the world. Please see http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L to access the archives. In a sense, we are writing a book together. The BEE-L archive search engine is much more powerful and flexible than many on the web. Please take time to read the help page and experiment a bit. You will be well rewarded for your time. BEE-L WEB PAGE: Links to our rules, the sign-on messages and access to our FAQ can be found in one easy-to-use page at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L. BEFORE YOU POST OR REPLY TO BEE-L: Please visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L periodically to review our guidelines and especially before posting to the list. Please also, before posting basic questions, do a quick search of the archives (at the same page) to see if there are answers there. If not, or you are not satisfied with the answers, then by all means post your question to the list. REJECTED AND LOST POSTS: If you post an article to BEE-L and your article did not appear on the list within 24 hours, you will also find information there on what might have happened. There are more possibilities than simple rejection by moderators. CANCELLING AND CHANGING YOUR BEE-L SUBSCRIPTION: Easy-to-use forms to easily and quickly change, suspend, or cancel your BEE-L membership are available at http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/BEE-L VIRUSES AND WORMS: BEE-L is moderated and is also text-only. Binaries and attachments are rejected. The moderators also reject any SPAM that is sent to BEE-L. Members therefore should never receive viruses or worms from BEE-L. Nonetheless anyone who sends and receives email on the Internet is vulnerable to receiving malicious programs in email from known and unknown persons. Therefore members are STRONGLY ADVISED to get and use two programs: a firewall and a virus checker. CURRENTLY RECOMMENDED SOFTWARE: Zone Alarm is available as a free download at http://www.zonelabs.com/ for personal use. It is simply the best available, and simple to use. Don't trust the firewall built into Windows XP. It, and many others out there simply won't do the trick. A personal version of AVG anti virus is available as a free download from from http://www.grisoft.com/ and it can be set to update automatically or updated manually (for free) over the net whenever you like. Please be sure to update your anti-virus daily so that your computer does not get infected with new worms that come along daily, and thus become a nuisance to the rest of us. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:32:24 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: Encounters With Humans Hello All, In the December 2001 issue of Bee Culture is one of the best articles I have read from Mark Winston in awhile. The article is on page fifteen and titled "Encounters With Humans". Mark shares a couple experiences from his private emails. One from a Art student wanting to get the picture on the cover of Mark Winston's book "The biology of the Honey Bee" put in tatoo form on his body. Another story which I found interesting was about a woman with a phobia concerning bees. Mark talked about the many weeks of sessions with a psychiatrist the woman had to rid herself of the phobia. In the first session the woman was able to tolerate being in the same room with a dead drone in a sealed jar. After many weeks (and dollars later!) the woman was actually able to hold the dead drone in her hand. The article has other stories and I have only added enough to get interest up but to me a very interesting article. Thanks Mark! Sincerely, Bob Harrison Odessa, Missouri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:41:43 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Rodney Farrar Subject: Re-Queening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wasn't able to re-queen in the fall, any comments on when to this spring is it good to do it in the spring, etc.? I have a total of six hives. * Two are two years old and one swarmed last spring. * One is a combination of a split and a swarm I caught (one year old). * The other three are new hives started last year with packages. Rodney In VA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 10:56:20 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "From the Gussow's of Tucson,Arizona - Don't worry it's a dry heat!" Subject: Re: Swarm traps In-Reply-To: <200112071959.fB7Jxrv04113@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, December 09, 2001 Hello to all and Mr. Lloyd Spear: I am surprised that someone in the woodenware industry has come up with a better swarm trap. One that would allow the standard deep frame to be inserted into a 5 frame Nuke. Something that would be made out of a lightweight wooden material, easy to hang off the tree or be static and easily serviced by a beekeeper. I have gone around with this idea for about six months now and the only thing I can really come up with would be modifications of existing designs. While existing designs to work or economical to fabricate or purchase their modifications doubled the cost. This may be acceptable depending upon at one entry point a beekeeper is prepared to sacrifice his time in fabrication. Here in southern Arizona most beekeeper supplement their time by using paper mache swarm traps on Golf courses. These devices are difficult to camouflage and look ugly and unsightly. While the employment of this design is useful for the more experienced beekeeper who has the skill it is the source only for those experienced beekeeper. In and for the fact that no one has equals skills in beekeeping I think a uniform be trap could easily be fabricated. It should lend itself to easy access to service. The handling of swarms can be dangerous occupational maneuver by the inexperienced beekeeper. Some designs to consider it would be the five frame nuke with hardware that would allow for some security and the ability to attach to a limb of a tree. Easy access and serviceability should be considered in its design. Turnaround time should be minimized after the transference of the swarm to a standardized beehive. Keeping in mind that the imprint of the old frames will continue to attract the resident swarm. We should consider this as a standardized swarm control device that anyone can operate successfully. Swarm control is a necessity at this period of time in my location. Since the fear of God and being murdered in there beds are the general idea of the citizens of southern Arizona of any swarm nearby their homes. So it becomes necessary for the beekeeper to do their best for public relations of the industry to provide for some sort of swarm control. Several beekeepers in this area have made an excellent living of late providing services and removing live colonies. More than what they would make by being just beekeepers. While the diversity of swarms is sometimes looked upon in other areas as mongrels the climate in southern Arizona, I. M. P. O. V., makes for a successful strain of honeybees. Since the climate is unique man cannot be replicated as well in other areas of the country any swarm of any size that is harmonious and successful over a long period of time is welcome. Package bees and untested queens from outside the area do not do well in this climate. The only sources of reliable honeybees are the swarms that Mother Nature provides. Any other supply is an artificial substitution for what nature provides. ( I.M.P.O.V.) since I strongly believe in Darwin's theory of natural selection and I also believe in microclimate as a factor in that natural selection the statements above have some foundation in science. Adaptation takes time to have some beekeepers cannot afford to take. This is my case here as I have very little choices but to look for swarms within the local area. This is solely my opinion and not of other beekeepers in my area. Since I make this statement on my own their others who would privately agree but not officially. Happy Hanukkah to all! Thank you for allowing me to contribute to this site. Respectfully submitted Harvey Tucson, Arizona 12/9/01 10:41:10 AM F-K. G.L.- 10.0 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:40:09 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Leigh Subject: Re: Swarm traps In-Reply-To: <200112091847.fB9IlGv09810@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I had a swarm trap up a large poplar tree this summer, about 12 feet off the ground sitting on the first limb. A thunderstorm came and the lightening zeroed in on the nails in the box. I found burnt pieces of the box and frames 70 feet in almost every direction. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 16:36:17 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re-Queening MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodney, Every one of your queens are "old" queens, meaning they are very likely to swarm unless you use all the tricks that help control swarming. In this new 21st century, more and more beekeepers are beginning to accept the fact that a 12 months old queen is an OLD queen, not because of diminished egg laying, but because of her loss of ability to produce copious amounts of queen pheromone, that "glue" that binds 40,000-60,000 bees into a SINGLE COHESIVE unit rather than swarming. It is hard to tell someone else WHEN to requeen unless one has exact knowledge of nectar flows between March and September. As you perhaps know, I despise spring requeening because it interferes with my honey yield, plus the fact that queens produced for late summer or fall requeening are generally much better bred and the breeder can get them delivered to you on an exact date. I will also admit that fall requeening is definitely more "work" and more labor intensive than spring requeening and should only be done by disciplined and knowledgeable beekeepers. If you have the equipment and you want to requeen in the spring, i. e. sometime in March, April, or May, and you don't want to lose any swarms, than it is best to make early splits, recombine the colonies after the nectar flows and destroy the old queens. Properly done, you will save above 75% of your honey yield. The MOST IMPORTANT technique of swarm prevention is PREVENTING CONGESTION IN THE BROOD CHAMBER! (This has NOTHING to do with super space). The brood chamber of a colony should consist of TWO deep bodies, or 3 medium bodies, and these units should be REVERSED as needed beginning about February 1st and continued until a strong nectar flow is underway. This may require 2-3 reversals if you are using deep bodies, or 3-5 reversals if you are using medium bodies. Some people in the southern states use only 1 deep and a super for their Brood Chamber area. This shortage of brood space encourages swarming; but that is the way their Daddy and their Granddaddy kept bees and were satisfied with only getting 25-50 pounds of honey each year and lots of swarms. Beekeepers today are trying to get 150 pounds/colony or 200, and ARE DOING IT. My ten year average figures are 132 pounds/colony, and Maryland is a very poor honey producing state, averaging only 29 pounds. If you need more info about Imirie's Almost Foolproof Requeening, or REVERSING, or SWARMS, there are old PINK PAGES on these subjects. Write back to me and request any of them and I will forward them to you by Internet. WHERE are you in VA? There is a heck of a difference between Richmond and Roanoke or Winchester. My home is just 6 miles from Great Falls, VA so I am familiar with the nectar flows in this Washington, DC area. Hope I have helped. George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of Maryland Beekeeping Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 03:29:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: Swarm traps I may have created some confusion in saying that trap hives placed on the corner of permanent buildings should, if possible, face east - and west in the Northern Hemisphere. To clarify this, allow me to say the entrance of the trap hive should face the morning sun. The afternoon and evening sun is normally more intense, and can melt the wax and propolis you have so carefully applied around the hive entrance. The confusion - and it was purely mine - arose from the fact that early European settlers in South Africa often build houses facing south, instead of north. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 07:14:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Swarm traps Comments: cc: "barry_sergeant@MYIAFRICA.COM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Sergeant gave some excellent pointers on swamp trapping. Melted wax? Propolis? A torch? All new to me, but it makes sense. Swarms are rare enough in the Southeastern USA to prompt nearly all beekeepers to jokingly thank (tease!) their neighboring beekeepers for swarms trapped, so even a small technological edge might be significant. I'm confused on one point: > If you can place the hives on permanent buildings, place them at > corners of the roof, preferably facing east (west in the northern > hemisphere). Above the equator, the sun rises in the East, just as it does below. Why would one reverse the direction above the equator? jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:51:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Subject: screened bottoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The assertion was made that screened bottoms were *never* meant to be used alone but with other treatments. If you look at this history of it, however, it was claimed that the bottom board could *eliminate* chemical treatments. The history of bottom screens: Original idea, posted by Jean-Pierre Le Pabic at http://www.apiculture.com/plateau-anti-varroas/index_us.htm quote: The principle of the anti-varroa bottom board has come from the fact that: wild colonies of honey bees can be found, free of varroa, in highly infested areas. The assumption is that many varroa mites fall from the colony and are eliminated in this way, having no means to climb back. On the contrary, in a hive, they do not have any difficulty joining up with their initial environment from the classic bottom boards. The Legris anti-varroa bottom board is designed so that they fall through the tubes under the hive. According to my experience on my colonies, *this bottom board eliminates any need for chemical treatment*. The varroa mites are not fully eliminated, but they remain in such a small number that they are no longer harmful. In the worst case, only one treatment per year might have to be done, which is enough to economically justify it. -- end quote quote from Apis: Drs. J. Pettis and H. Shimanuki of the USDA-ARS Bee Research Lab published their results using especially designed bottom boards to reduce Varroa populations (American Bee Journal, Vol. 139, No. 6, pp.471-473, June 1999). The good news is that in the 30 colonies fitted with modified bottom boards, there was an approximately 14 and 28 percent lower mite fall when compared with normal bottom boards in June and July. The bad news is that the results were not statistically significant, and by September mite levels in all colonies (experimental and controls) reached damaging levels. Thus, it appears that the modified bottom boards slowed Varroa population development, but cannot be relied on as a single, effective treatment for these mites. The authors remain optimistic that physically separating the bee nest from the hive floor by use of a wire mesh (#8 hardware cloth) used in conjunction with resistant stock, smoke, dusts or other control agents should provide a more integrated approach to Varroa control, reducing use of conventional pesticides in the bargain. The above conclusions coincide with those of Troy Hart and Dr. R. Nabors at the University of Missouri, who studied pollen traps to control Varroa (American Bee Journal, Vol. 139, No. 5, pp. 366-367, May 1999). The principal is the same. The bee's nest is separated from the trapped pollen by a screen mesh. A byproduct of Drs. Pettis and Shimanuki's investigation was that colonies on modified bottom boards produced significantly more brood seven weeks after being established with packages than those with conventional bottom boards. The authors state that this result appears to correlate with those obtained using a slatted rack. In the same issue of American Bee Journal, pp. 747-476, Dr. Keith Delaplane at the University of Georgia reports on a three-year study using the slatted rack. In this investigation, the modification did produce more brood near the hive entrance, but did not result in a general brood production increase when compared to controls. -- end quote Note the following: * by September mite levels in all colonies (experimental and controls) reached damaging levels * more brood near the hive entrance ... not ... a general brood production increase when compared to controls * The authors remain optimistic (Optimism is a good thing but not when it obscures the facts.) From Hoosier Buzz quote: [Rinderer] tested an IPM program of Screened bottoms, formic acid, both, and no treatment. Results were as follow for Russian stock - 1% to 8% using all four. Using both formic acid and screen did have lowest mite population, no treatment had highest mites but still low. Domestic stock results were, 9% for both, 21% with formic acid, 69% with screen, and 70% with no treatment. It was also found that the Russians are more hygienic then domestic stock. -- end quote This study seems to point to an increase in effectiveness of formic acid, but this small increase pales before the effectiveness of requeening with Russian stock. Russians with formic and traps: 1% infection rate Russian controls: 8% Domestic with formic and traps: 9% Domestic controls: 70% infection rate -- Peter Borst Ithaca, NY plb6@cornell.edu http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/plb6 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 03:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As illustrated by photos taken by an independent party in last week’s BEE-L, it is possible to produce docile African bees (scutellata). By that, I mean large colonies that can be worked without protection. Smoke is used only to move the bees away from areas where they may get crushed. In short, the bees are simply not aggressive. Scutellata are, of course, the rootstock of the Africanized honeybee (AHB) in parts of South, Central and North America. The general reputation of the AHB in the West is that it is a killer bee. Period. Increasingly, parts of the global media machine are entrenching this myth. The killer bee appears in movies and even in pop music. Even well-meaning information published on the AHB, compiled by intelligent people, allows no leeway for this bee. But the real intrigue for somebody who lives in native scutellata territory - such as myself - is the seeming determination of Americans to sweep AHBs under the carpet. It is always difficult - and often dangerous - to generalise, but allow me some latitude on this one. Countless pages of documentation are available on the story of how scutellata were taken to Brazil in the 1950s. Some escaped, forming the rootstock of the AHB. In the following decades, this bee colonised millions of square miles, and is now firmly in occupation of significant parts of the US. The only significant limiting factor in the AHB’s spread, as in Africa, would appear to be cold temperatures. In the US, there appears to be a blind attitude that if you ignore the AHB, it will go away. It will not; it is the most successful bee in Africa, in terms of square miles occupied. In practice, the attitude in the US towards the AHB is that the only good AHB is a dead one. Each year, millions of dollars are spent on locating and destroying AHBs in the US; probably more money than is spent on US bee research. Successful spending of these AHB dollars manifest in juicy newspaper headlines, and the myth of the killer bee deepens. It appears bizarre that a nation as organised as the US, and with so many clever people (the Enron debacle aside), and with such a freedom-drenched constitution, cannot see the merits of working WITH the AHB, rather than against it. Having generalised, it is becoming increasingly clear that some beekeepers in the US are working with the AHB. Evidently, it is illegal to work with these bees in the US. So far as I know, a combination of federal and other laws requires all AHBs to be destroyed - on sight, so to speak, and with prejudice. US beekeepers who do work with the AHB in the US have been forced underground. But when people want something, they will get hold of it; to wit, the reaction to the US’s prohibition laws of long ago. I do not have overwhelming evidence, but it appears that US beekeepers who work with the AHB believe it to be a good bee, even a superior bee. If it is indeed a superior bee, in its feral state, imagine how good docile, pedigreed scutellata can be. Below, you can read information from a US bee man whose name and location are not disclosed. He appeals for beekeepers to work together on the AHB issue. For, as he points out, the day may arrive when beekeeping itself is legislated out of existence. The only people who have a vested interest in demystifying the killer bee myth are beekeepers themselves. But there is no discernible, concerted attempt to do any such thing. It only remains to say that African bees live in harmony with people over vast areas of Africa, and have done so from time immemorial. Barry Sergeant Kyalami South Africa An anonymous American writes: I understand that the so-called "killer bee" has been over-sensationalized by the media, however, the hybridized Africanized honey bees (AHB) we have in the Americas have made trouble and are more dangerous then our traditional European honey bee (EHB). The AHB is a tropical bee that prefers to nest in areas that have lots of food resources and water. This is in our cities, houses, and backyards. Only a small percentage, 25-30%, of the AHB have the highly defensive trait that gets publicized in the news. The rest of the population is tolerable. The problem is that the AHB swarms 10 to 12 times in wild situations. As you know, each time they swarm a new queen is introduced and new genes are brought into the colony. This frequent swarming may happen every four to eight weeks. That means the defensive genes may be introduced unnoticed and then you could have an attack. This is why we do bee control in the SA. If you think I dislike the AHB you would be mistaken. I think these are SUPER BEES - mite resistant, with low disease rates, and very hard working. I was a commercial beekeeper for seven years and liked to use the AHB. Unfortunately, it is hard to make a living as a beekeeper in the USA, so bee removal is the next best thing. It is a needed service with so many AHBs in the cities. Even though we kill the swarms and hives as fast as we can the number of feral hives grows each year. We now have more feral colonies in AHB areas then we ever had EHB. Public safely should be on the minds of all beekeepers around the world; each time someone gets stung by bees from a beekeeper's hive or a feral colony it becomes harder and harder for beekeepers to keep their bees in their backyards or even in farmers' fields. We all need to work together to keep the public safe so they do not run us out of town by passing laws that prohibit beekeeping. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:25:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is a bit confusing that just about every major and minor beekeeping supply company went well out on a limb and started selling screened bottom boards with the FACTS that this would control mites. And now almost one year later we hear reports claiming the results are basically non-noticeable. BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: screened bottoms > The assertion was made that screened bottoms were *never* meant to be > used alone but with other treatments. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:04:22 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Ken Lightle Ph.D." Subject: Re: screened bottoms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello all, I have found that screened bottom boards do reduce the number of mite within the hive. However, anyone would be foolish to think that this "miraculous" screening system would take care of mites all-together. Of course use other means to reduce mites, like miticides (Apistan, Checkmite, etc...) After all, if absolutely no mites fall through the screen, we do provide much better ventillation for the bees. Ken www.buckeyebee.com >From: BeeFarmer >Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology > >To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu >Subject: Re: screened bottoms >Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:25:21 -0500 > >It is a bit confusing that just about every major and minor beekeeping >supply company went well out on a limb and started selling screened bottom >boards with the FACTS that this would control mites. And now almost one >year later we hear reports claiming the results are basically >non-noticeable. > >BeeFarmer >Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping >http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Peter" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:51 AM >Subject: screened bottoms > > > > The assertion was made that screened bottoms were *never* meant to be > > used alone but with other treatments. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:23:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OhioBeeFarmer@HOTMAIL.COM takes just about every major and minor beekeeping supply company to task for providing screened bottom boards. Well that's what vendors do! They're in it for the money. As far as the time frame (And now almost one year later we hear reports claiming the results are basically non-noticeable), indications that open bottom boards were not all they were being touted to be is old news. The first indication on BEE-L can be found in the archives as far back as January '99. So don't fault the vendors. It's their job to sell what the consumer will buy. Aaron Morris - thinking Caveat emptor! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:37:19 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: screened bottoms In-Reply-To: <200112111320.fBBDKFv11864@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>The authors state that this result appears to correlate with those obtained using a slatted rack. In the same issue of American Bee Journal, pp. 747-476, Dr. Keith Delaplane at the University of Georgia reports on a three-year study using the slatted rack. In this investigation, the modification did produce more brood near the hive entrance, but did not result in a general brood production increase when compared to controls. I have never used slatted racks but the ones I saw pictured in catalogs had 10 slats (that line up with 10 frames in a standard hive body). I know a lot of folks use only 9 frames per hive body (to let the bees draw out deeper cells to make decapping easier). It occurred to me that if one were to look down in between the 9 frames, because of the wider spacing, one would see some of the slat tops underneath. Could some varroa land there and catch a ride back on the next bee ? Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:45:11 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, I agree with your comments. I see no reason US beekeepers couldn't utilize scutellata. They are a very good bee. Only a small percentage, > 25-30%, of the AHB have the highly defensive trait that gets publicized reply: True. This % is probably true of any "true" feral stock whether AHB or EHB. I see no reason that scutellta couldn't be breed as gentle as EHB (of which some aren't so gentle). The only limiting factor that may be a problem with scutellata is their wintering ability. The only significant > limiting factor in the AHB's spread, as in Africa, would appear to be > cold temperatures. What type of bees are used in cold regions for honey production? Monticola? Couldn't a hybrid stock be formed? Clay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:00:24 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHBs in the US In-Reply-To: <200112111400.fBBE0Zv12882@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii To all on BEE-l Barry Sergeant talks about AHBs as many before him here in the USA have talked about them that have actual experience with them in the field. Much has been said on the subject matter. Also it has been said when the myth becomes reality then learn to live the myth! But is this fair to our beekeeping industry? Most of this myth is orchastrated politics, but then that is another story. What prompted me to write is Barry Sergeant made me think, so I pulled out an Article written called " Are 'Killer Bees' Wimping Out?" that appeared on page 8, the Speedy Bee in Oct/Nov1997. From it I now quote: *But since crossing the U.S.border near Hidalgo, Texas, in 1990, they've moved very little from the strongholds they've established in the Southwest. Researchers now say these tropical bees may have reached what will be roughly their northern limit in the United Staes, an area that includes only the southern-most United States. They also say the bees have lost much of their legendary aggressiveness from continiuous interbreeding with milder European honeybees in their journey to the United States. "A lot of the extreme ideas about these bees have been thrown out," said William L. Rubink, a research entomologist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Honeybee Research Labortary in Weslaco, Texas. "Basically, what we've seen is that the movement north seems to start degressing about the 30 degree (latitude) mark. That's pretty much where we saw it decreasing in south America also" as they spread south into more temperate climates of that continent, he said. Native to Afirce, these "bees with an attitude" were imported to Brazil in 1956 as part of a genetics experiment. ....... Even as they existed in Brazil the AHBs were a far cry from the vicious mauders taht became their myth. However, they could be dangerously aggressive when provoked, and mnay researchers had predicted the Africanized bees would not lose this trait as they continued to spread north through Central Amerlica, since they seemed to have lost so little of it in their early spread north of Brazil. In fact , that conclusion became the conventional wisdom about the bees. But Dr Rubink and others who have visited areas of South and Central AMerica where the bees are established say they are more aggressive farther south than the US strains have proven to be. "They're nowhere near what they are down there. We're seeing (an aggressiveness) that is less than what was predicted," he said, attributing the change to the continuous interbreeding with milder European honeybees. Hachiro Shimanuki, head of USDA Honeybee Research in Beltsville, Md., agreed that the bees have grown more mellow. "however, we don't really have any ghood way of making the comparison per se. We do think they've been hybridized a lot more though. There are a number of people who think that in a few years we will not be talking about AFricanized honeybees as a seperate species at all," he said. Now again, when the myth becomes reality, does one live the myth or live reality and get rid of the myth? Barry Sergeant is breeding bees like others before him have.We ourselves have done the same, my husband Ed and I. Yet, myths are hard to live down. Locally, a beekeeper has a hive that stings more than 2-3 times they think they have 'killer' bees and requeen to go gentler, yet up north in the USA a beekeeeper has a hive that stings 20-30 times working it and this is normal European stock. About 4 deaths have occured in the southern states due to AHBs and mostly due to people trying to get rid of them foolishly, due to orchastrated publid hype. ONe old man killed, tried to burn the swarm out with a torch when local beekeepers wouldn't help him (Texas). Even up north I think the scenario would have been the same. So to end and basically say what does this mean? Well, bees are bees, and politics is politics and it's a shame that people with good bees to sell cannot sell them, the way they have always been sold to make a living. Barry has a right to sell his bees from S. Africa to the USA and Europe without all the stigma attached by political myth. After all, bees from there were originally used to set up stocks here in the USA and Europe. We'd sell clean nucs and bees also, but sometimes politics of myths is hard. While I don't agree with all Barry Sergeant says mainly as concerns breeding (I'm into natural sizing and not enlarging bees) I do VERY MUCH agree with him on being allowed to sell a product, his bees, and saying there is nothing wrong with the genetics of them. But then the big question is: What exactly is AHB other then political myth? REgards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:06:02 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: screened bottoms MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Borst said: > The assertion was made that screened bottoms were *never* meant > to be used alone but with other treatments. If you look at this history of > it, however, it was claimed that the bottom board could *eliminate* > chemical treatments... I cannot comment upon or defend whatever assertions were (or are) made about screened bottoms, but it should have been clear from the start that screened bottoms can only be one PART of an IPM program to control mites: a) Mites can "hang on" in sufficient numbers to thrive, since they come from a part of the world where feral bee colonies abound, and make their nests "in the open", which would be the ultimate "screened bottom board". b) Therefore, one needs some second mechanism to make the majority of mites "loose their grip" and fall in the first place. (Sugar dusting, Apistan, whatever.) c) There are some Asian bees that were reported to "groom" mites off of each other, which might explain why the mites are less of a problem for them - the bees themselves are the "second mechanism", but even this only controls the mites, and does not eliminate them. d) Once mites do fall, a screened bottom makes sure that they die. I think that many people have it backwards - they see a "sugar roll" as a mere diagnostic tool, and a screened bottom as a "mite killer". The opposite appears to more accurate. The screened bottom board is a good way to get a "body count", and sugar dusting is a good way to turn more mites into dead bodies on the sticky paper under the screened bottom board. As for accusations directed at woodenware vendors regarding cynical claims, I don't think that this is fair. I think that the vendors were simply repeating the research cited by Mr. Borst. While one could critique them for not thinking clearly, this criticism should be directed at other parties. I think that the woodenware vendors are much less to "blame" than the researchers and beekeepers, who appear to have ignored things like the simple "knowns" listed above. In general, there is no "magic bullet". There are no "easy answers". There are "elegant solutions", but they are neither "easy" nor absolute "answers". Reality simply does not work that way. jim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob Harrison Subject: 5 frame nucs from deeps Hello All, I would be interested in hearing of ways to turn the standard migratory top and bottom single hive into two five frame nucs by those which have done the project. One plan has been to cut the migratory top in half. Cut the migratory bottom in half and add a 3/8 strip side strip. Cut the deep box in half and simply add a board to the side. We believe by attaching the half migratory bottom the nuc will be strong enough without a rabbit or dovetail joint. Right or wrong? Glue or not glue? We have got baby nucs, deeps divided in half and deeps which hold four queens for use in mating. We need five frame nucs and have got the above equipment not in use to use. Looking for a quick and simple method. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:26:41 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: AHBs in the US Hi Clay You asked: What type of bees are used in cold regions for honey production? Monticola? Couldn't a hybrid stock be formed? In certain parts of Africa scutellata are displaced by other races. For example, in the Western Cape, around Cape Town, you find AM capensis, which is specialised in surviving foul winters. In the high East African mountains, you find AM monticola, and so on. The South African government has refused us permission to import any queens, bees, eggs or bee semen from anywhere in the world. Reasons have been furnished, but not articulated. One day, science will overcome politics. We remain on the case, and are particularly interested in monticola. We had arranged to import instrumentally inseminated monticola queens from ICIPE (www.icipe.org) in Nairobi. ICIPE, an internationally recognised entity with 300 professional staff, offered to issue the queens with international health certificates. Capensis is a no-no; the unique ability of the worker bees to clone themselves is fatal to scutellata colonies (this has been much discussed on BEE-L). Anyhow, just as wild scuts don't like the cold, capensis is a poor performer outside its preferred climatic environment. In the meantime, we have upsized two of our five main lines of scutellata, specifically to enhance over-wintering abilities. Where wild scutellata typically construct worker cells at some 4.9mm, the upsized pedigree lines are now at 5.2 to 5.3mm. One of these upsized lines (the Yellow Line) happens to rate tops in honey production, of all the lines, at an average of 33% more than wild scuts, regardless of the season. But by no means have we stopped developing the normal-sized pedigree scuts. We are well aware of the gigantic debate raging over cell size of Eurobees, and the school of thought that believes 4.9mm is optimal. However, our upsized scuts are not promoted to breeder status unless they are superior in every respect to all their predecessors. We do not treat them with any drugs, chemicals or mechanical devices (such as screened bottoms) whatsoever. These bees totally marginalise pests and diseases, and live with EB, chalkbrood, varroa destructor, small hive beetles, other beetles, pseudoscorpions, and braula. They easily deal with ants, flies, and so on. Barry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:48:23 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AHBs in the US In-Reply-To: <200112112058.fBBKwPv25684@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all on BEE-l Barry Sergeant wrote: We are well aware of the gigantic debate raging over cell size of Eurobees, and the school of thought that believes 4.9mm is optimal. However, our upsized scuts are not promoted to breeder status unless they are superior in every respect to all their predecessors. We do not treat them with any drugs, chemicals or mechanical devices (such as screened bottoms) whatsoever. These bees totally marginalise pests and diseases, and live with EB, chalkbrood, varroa destructor, small hive beetles, other beetles, pseudoscorpions, and braula. They easily deal with ants, flies, and so on. Reply: This is very commendable Barry to be able to do this. I could not want to do any better myself. It seems our only difference then is on sizing, as I prefer 4.9mm top tolerance sizing for control of parasitic mites and accompanying secondary diseases without the usage of various chemicals, drugs, essential oils and acids. By the way our bees easily deal with other insects also such as ants, flies, various beetles, polistes (wasps), bumble bees, mantis's, lizzards, etc also found dead in front of colonies at certain times of the year. As long as we both are clean with usage of various dopes and the bees then can take of themselves, then who could ask for more. I like your thoughts on Monticola stock. It will be a great asset to your bees and performance. Erik Osterlund in Sweden uses Monticola and likes the stock very well. We (my husband Ed and I) like small black bees found high in the hills of S. Arizona and after grafting selected colonies, hand cull in an incubator to that only, for virgin queen introduction into our colonies. Again, it seems our diferences are in size only from reading this and that is good. Running clean for combs in the future, is the future for continued beekeeping. For it means the production of good viable queens where so much has played out due to usage of fluvalinate & coumaphos. Again Barry, you are to be commended on the breeding you are doing with your bees. Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 01:15:43 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Dillon Subject: Re: screened bottoms and the open market MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reading Aaron's comments relating to vendors - "It's their job to sell what the consumer will buy." - therefore apparently defending their right to supply whatsoever to a "willing public" Relate to the situation of the Agro.-Pharma. Industry: They not only manufacture, market and supply materials to "the consumer", but do the supporting research either via.in house or from "independent research establishments". The latter often being paid to do the work by the manufacturer. Results from both situations are then often withheld from general scrutiny, especially if the results are not to companies liking. At least it can be said that the Beekeeping suppliers were using information available to all who wished to get informed of the true situation. I understand that even Public Gov't bodies withhold information if research undertaken by them is paid for by the private companies. So much for Freedom of Information. Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:17:14 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: 5 frame nucs from deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Harrison wrote: > Hello All, > I would be interested in hearing of ways to turn the standard migratory top > and bottom single hive into two five frame nucs by those which have done > the project. Why not just build nuc boxes. If you cut a groove with a router, in the front and back wall of a hive body,to accept a piece of 1/2" piece of plywood, five frames will fit on each side. Either make a bottom board to fit, or nail a piece of plywood on the bottom. The inner cover is a grain bag. The bees glue it down to the divider. On top goes a standard outer cover. I've built hundreds of these, and they work well for me. You can really get fancy by building division board feeders, and having two 4 frame nucs. Then if one nuc doesn't take, just move the feeder to one side, and unite the two nucs, making an 8 frame nuc. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:53:30 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Schlafer-Parton Subject: estimating hive population Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi all, Can someone give a "rule of thumb" for estimating the number of bees per hive? For instance, a full frame of bees would be equal to how many bees? Thanks Joel Parton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:33:52 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Arheit Subject: Re: 5 frame nucs from deeps In-Reply-To: <200112112056.fBBKukv25555@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have seen multiple nucs made from deeps without much modification. Typically a divider is placed in the deep, and a strip of wood is added to the middle bottom board to divide it in two at the same location. Typically a modified inner cover is also used so one half can be exposed while the other half is not. The same outer cover is used. Sometimes the entrance is reduced from the center to make a more obvious separation to the two hives. You could simply cut down deeps (possibly a way to salvage damaged ones) but keeping two in one reduces the amount of special equipment needed. The deep be made to have a removable divider, so the only really special equipment would be the split inner cover. I can't say how well they work. I do plan to try it next year. -Tim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: 5-frame nuc boxes from deeps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob asks how to make these from deeps. Providing your boxes are just about absolutely square, this is reasonably= easy and I have made almost 100. I like to keep the entrance at the bot= tom, as it makes it easier to draw foundation. So, first cut an entrance= about 2" wide and 3/8" high in each end, near opposite corners. Then fa= sten the bottom board. I use 3/8" plywood cut to fit. Drill three to si= x 1/8" holes in the plywood to let any moisture drain. Concentrate the h= oles near the rear opposite each entrance. There can't be too many drain= holes. Next, cut the divider. This is the tough part as it must fit reasonably = well, and you will have a heck of a time if your deeps are of slightly di= fferent measurements or are not close to being absolutely square. Be cer= tain the divider bottoms out and has no more than 1/8" clearance on each = side. If it makes cutting easier, there is no difficulty if the divider = rises up to 1/16" above the top of the deep. For the top, get 100 pound plastic feed bags, if available. If not avail= able, get the 80 pound size, and use untreated burlap if necessary. The = 100 pound bags easily fit over the top, filling all the little gaps that = might otherwise let a queen move from one side to the other. The 80 poun= d size needs some careful adjustment to be certain they provide the same = coverage. The bees will propolize both the plastic and the burlap bags t= o the top bars, but the plastic releases much more easily than the burlap= . In addition, some bees will chew through the burlap, but I've never ha= d them chew through the plastic. Put the migratory cover over the bag, a= nd a stone/brick on top. If you encounter hot weather, and the bees have been in the nucs at least= 10 days, just set a corner of the bag back around 1/2" from the top of t= he box. Cover/stone/brick will hold it there, and you will get good uppe= r ventilation. Now...a major improvement (IMHO) is to forgo 1 frame from each side and a= dd a feeder in the middle. The feeder also acts as a divider. Make the = feeder sides from tempered fiberboard. The ends and the bottom are wood.= Add a divider from tempered fiberboard, so that internally there are ac= tually two feeders. Make the top from wood, leaving a blank near each en= d to add syrup. Add "ears" to act as frame rests. Glue all this up with= a good waterproof glue. I use Kelley's. =20 >From the outside, just down from the top, drill four 1/4" adjacent holes = to allow bees access to the syrup. Cut a piece of plastic queen excluder= material and fasten over the holes with clear silicone. (If you don't d= o this, the bees will gradually enlarge the feeder access holes. Sooner = or later a queen will enter, and you will drown her when you add syrup!) = Do all this on both sides, so each nuc can feed. This is tough to write (but easy to build). If you want one feeder to co= py, or want to buy them cheaper than you can build them, get them from: Dan H. Miller 5670 B County RD 10 Heuvelton NY 13654 A few years back I gave him one to use as an example and since he has sin= ce been making them for me, and anyone else who wants them. He sells the= m for $5 each; ask for Double Nuc Feeder. He makes the double nuc box as= well as the feeder for $15 each. Everything comes fully assembled. He = is Amish, so no phone calls. He will ship, but not in large quantities. Hope this helps, =20 Lloyd email to LloydSpear@msn.com http://www.rossrounds.com Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:30:32 -0400 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: adony melathopoulos Subject: Re: estimating hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joel, Bee populations can be estimated by approximating how much of a frame is totally covered with workers or occupied by brood. The most accurate way to estimate populations is to remove frames and estimate coverage before there is significant bee flight. A quicker way to estimate how many bees there are is to look at a super of clustered bees by looking from the top and bottoms of the super and estimating how many frames are covered. Medhat Nasr validated this cluster technique when he was at Davis and it works well when temperatures are cool and bees are still clustering (< 12C). The rule of thumb for Langstroth equipment (deeps) is a full frame of comb holds ~2,400 adults (Burgett and Burikam 1985) or ~15,000 eggs, larvae or pupae (Winston 1987). Burgett, M., and I. Burikam. 1985. Number of adult honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) occupying a comb: a standard for estimating colony populations. J. Econ. Entomol. 78: 1154--1156. Winston. M. L. 1987. The Biology of the Honey Bee. Harvard University Press. Cambridge, Mass. Regards, Adony --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release Date: 12/4/01 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:20:29 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: estimating hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...The rule of thumb for Langstroth equipment (deeps) is a > full frame of comb holds ~2,400 adults (Burgett and Burikam 1985) or ~15,000 > eggs, larvae or pupae (Winston 1987). I think that an extra '1' got appended before the "5,000" above. There are about 25 cells per square inch on each side of a typical comb with 5.3mm cells. (See http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/CellCount.htm for other sizes of cells). Each side measures about 8" x 17" or 136 in^2 That gives 136 x 25 = 3,400 cells per side -- or 6,800 cells total per frame. Seldom do we see every cell filled with brood, therefore 5,000 is a reasonable estimate for a nice frame of brood. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/CellCount.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:04:07 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: estimating hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You cited Mark Winston stating that there were 15,000 cells (counting both sides) on a deep frame. I believe that is wrong by a factor of 2. It is a well established fact that, Italian, Carniolan, And Caucasian bees build comb that comprises 55.3 Cells per square inch counting BOTH sides of the comb. Foundation that fits in deep frame measures 16.75" long x 8.5" high which equals 142.375 square inches; and 142.375 time 55.3 equals 7,873 total cells. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:02:45 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: 5 frame nucs from deeps In-Reply-To: <200112121646.fBCGkJv27852@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200112121646.fBCGkJv27852@listserv.albany.edu>, Tim Arheit writes >You could simply cut down deeps (possibly a way to salvage damaged ones) >but keeping two in one reduces the amount of special equipment needed. >The deep be made to have a removable divider, so the only really special >equipment would be the split inner cover. > >I can't say how well they work. I do plan to try it next year. They work well. A removable divider allows you to unite two if one queen fails to mate properly. The tricky bit (especially with 3 nucs in one box) is to get the bees into a full sized hive. It is easier if they are closed up and moved to a new site, opened up one at a time for the transfer and the remaining bees allowed to crawl up into the new hive before doing the next one. A double is easier on the mechanics and can be done at the same site. For the bees, one box with 2 entrances now becomes 2 boxes side by side so there is not too much of a change. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:15:50 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: dan hendricks Subject: Role of A.m.m. in AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am going to write this from long-ago memory so be forgiving of errors in exact details. About a decade ago the international bee meeting was held in Brazil. Afterwards two German bee scientists wrote a two part summary in ABJ. In it they reported that they had found AHB colonies which were as defensive as reported. But they said they could take an observer to numerous colonies of the "German black bee", Apis mellifera mellifera, in northern Germany (and in Sweden?) which were every bit as bad. They noted that the feral bee population in Brazil into which the A. m. scutellata had escaped was largely A. m. m. They wondered, as do I, how much of the excessively defensive characteristics of "AHB" come from the A. m. m. rather than from A. m. s. I have never heard this spoken of since and am reminded of it whenever Barry describes his scutellata experiences. Dan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:47:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "David L. Green" Subject: Re: Role of A.m.m. in AHB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Hendricks wonders if the fierceness of the africanized bee could be partly or wholly derived from wild stocks of German black bees that were present in the area where scutellata escaped. I can vouch for the German bee's fierceness. These were common in coastal South Carolina before mites and strip logging of the hardwood forests. They were remnants of the original stock that beekeepers used before the Italian bee became common for domestic use. One spring back in the "good ole days" I caught over 90 swarms in bait boxes, and they were mostly feral black bees, also known as "swamp bees" around here. Every now and then, you would find one of these hives that you knew could possibly kill an unprotected person. I remember one hive that hammered on our plastic helmets like a hail storm, and my helper and I both agreed that these could be killers. I also remember a swarm that I captured, which showed no problems at first, but which I put into a northern orchard for pollination. The grower called me and told me no one could work in that orchard block. When I entered the orchard, at least 200 yards from the beehives, they started hitting my truck windshield. I quickly isolated the problem to that one hive, and moved it to a yard where I'd had some vandalism problems. Later when the bee inspector came, I had 35 hives in that yard. When we came to that hive, I told him, "We'll do this hive last." "Why?" he asked. "Because they are mean bees, and we won't be able to continue work after we disturb them." He got huffy. "I've worked bees all my life and I'm not afraid of any 'mean' bees!" "This one LAST!" I insisted. When I opened the hive and puffed some smoke they all went down between the frames, as usual, and I wondered if I hadn't overestimated them. Then, about thirty seconds later, they started hitting the air, and smoke had no further noticeable effect. A minute later they were covering us. After looking at one frame, the inspector hurridly laid it down, and beat a retreat to his car. I somehow got the hive closed and followed him out of the bee yard. He was rubbing his sides to remove stingers from his clothes. "I've never been stung on my ribs so many times in my life!" I've often wondered if the africanized bee really could be any worse that the worst black bees I've seen. Of course not all hives were that way, but an occasional one was murder. Dave Green SC USA The Pollination Home Page: http://pollinator.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 04:11:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: Estimating hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. The methods suggested will estimate the number of bees actually present in the hive, and this may well be the best available approximation, but how many more bees may be out foraging? Is this likely to introduce a significant error? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:46:51 -0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dave Cushman Subject: Re: estimating hive population MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joel There are some pictures depicting various amounts of bees on a frame at http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/beesest.html The frames concerned ar BS sizes and not Langstroth, but they will give a rough idea if you convert the area difference into a multiplier. Best regards & 73s... Dave Cushman G8MZY Beekeeping & Bee Breeding Website http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 07:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: Nucs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This site has some drawings of bee equipment and one thing that caught my eye was a nuc drawing that I believe Bob was looking for: http://www.ag.ndsu.nodak.edu/abeng/plans/6327.pdf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: On Pierco plastic frames. In-Reply-To: <200112122120.fBCLKwv08459@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I plan to start two hives with black Pierco frames this coming spring. The advantages seem to be clear: from cost effectiveness, through better visibility of eggs, to more cell space. Having searched the archives on this topic, I have 4 questions. 1. Are package bees really reluctant to draw comb on plastic frames (unless there is a heavy nectar flow)? (When I get my packages, around April 21, I expect to have to feed them syrup for a while to let them build up properly.) 2. Are there any concerns about violating bee space in 7/8" hive bodies ? (One archived post raised the alarm.) 3. Any problems with inserting 9 plastic frames still be inserted into a hive body? (One post suggested there must be 10.) 4. Is there any merit to the claims that the plastic material may outgas and enter wax/honey ? I know we use plastic pails and jars to store honey. Can it be verified, that Pierco is using the same food grade plastic material in their frames?? If there is a good, solid write-up on this, please let me know. I want to play it safe and have a piece of mind. Thank you. Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:44:30 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BeeFarmer Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Reply to: Subject: On Pierco plastic frames. > I plan to start two hives with black Pierco frames this coming spring. > The advantages seem to be clear: from cost effectiveness, through better > visibility of eggs, to more cell space. I enjoy using the black as it is easier than the white to see eggs> > > 1. Are package bees really reluctant to draw comb on plastic frames > (unless there is a heavy nectar flow)? (When I get my packages, around > April 21, I expect to have to feed them syrup for a while to let them > build up properly.) > I haven't seen any real issues with building these up. Don't mix with other frames and yes feed , feed, feed. > 2. Are there any concerns about violating bee space in 7/8" hive bodies > ? (One archived post raised the alarm.) I haven't seen any issues with this. Depending on where you woodenware comes from this might be an issue. > > 3. Any problems with inserting 9 plastic frames still be inserted into > a hive body? (One post suggested there must be 10.) I always use 10 and drop to 9 as needed. I don't run 9 frames in the brood area althought I run them in the supers. I also use plastic in the supers however, I use white plastic there. > > 4. Is there any merit to the claims that the plastic material may > outgas and enter wax/honey ? I know we use plastic pails and jars to > store honey. Can it be verified, that Pierco is using the same food > grade plastic material in their frames?? > Haven't heard of any issues. It would be interesting if there was an issue. > If there is a good, solid write-up on this, please let me know. > > I want to play it safe and have a piece of mind. Thank you. > > Waldemar Just some other comments on using plastic. I don't like the complete plastic frame. I like to build wooden frames and insert the plastic in them. The wooden frames don't flex like the plastic frames. I also llike to spray my brood frames with sugar water to the wax build up. I don't spray my honey super frames as I don't want to chance having any sugar water in my honey. The only other issue I had was with the plastic complete frame it would go into my extractor I had to make some cuts to the frame or extractor.. and I choose to cut the frames. BeeFarmer Getting Kids involved in 4H Beekeeping http://www.homestead.com/BeeKeepers/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Jeremy T Barnes Organization: N. C. Cooperative Extension Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Response to plastic frames. Waldemar asks, 3. Any problems with inserting 9 plastic frames still be inserted into a hive body? (One post suggested there must be 10.) I think that you need to start out with 10 frames of foundation so that the bees will properly draw it out. The added space left by only having 9 frames may cause the bees to build bur comb that is perpendicular to or even inbetween the frames. Once the foundation is drawn out then you can cut back to 9 frames. -- Jeremy T Barnes Email : jtbarnes@franklin.ces.ncsu.edu Phone : (919) 496-3344 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:52:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. In-Reply-To: <200112131650.fBDGoQv09087@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I haven't seen any real issues with building these up. Don't mix with other frames and yes feed , feed, feed. This is good news indeed. :) >>I also use plastic in the supers however, I use white plastic there. Do you see the white plastic getting a dirty appearance over time? (From the aesthetic point of view since the amount of 'dirt' will be the same regardless of plastic pigment.) >>Haven't heard of any issues. It would be interesting if there was an issue. I'll request material information from Pierco. I do not expect to hear a problem. Just for my own peace of mind. >>The only other issue I had was with the plastic complete frame it would go into my extractor I had to make some cuts to the frame or extractor.. and I choose to cut the frames. Was this per chance more than 3 years ago ? I understand Pierco strengthened the top bar in the one piece molded frames to make them more inflexible about 3 years ago. Anyone else experience a problem within the last 3 years ? Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by lparr@PPFS4.TAMU.EDU to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove entirety of quotes of previously posted material.Y ----------------- Original message (ID=935AAB1D) (75 lines) ------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:18:52 -0600 From: "Lance Parr" To: Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. My personal experience with starting a package on Pierco frames was not good. I'm in College Station, Texas (East Central Texas). This spring I started a 3 lb. package of Russians from Hardeman's on nine frames of deep white wax coated Pierco frames with a division feeder full of 2:1 sugar syrup. Following advice seen on this list I sprayed each frame with the same 2:1 sugar syrup as I had filled the feeder with moments prior to installation. Installation went smoothly with no problems (no smoke, veil or gloves). A week and two days later I checked on them and found that they had released the queen and begun building transverse (parallel with the front of the hive, 90 degrees the frames) strips of comb between the frames. The strips were fairly straight from top to bottom, and had the proper bee space between them. I pulled all the frames and scraped the comb away, with deep regret since it was full of eggs, pollen and stored syrup. I checked on them again a week later and found the exact same thing, repeating the process of scraping away the c! omb and forcing them to start over. I was out of town and didn't have a chance to check on them again for another two weeks. When I did I found the exact same situation. This time I pulled the Piercos and replaced them with wood frames and wired wax foundation from Kelley's. A week later they had a good start on good straight comb drawn from the foundation and I've had no problems with them since (other than the normal amount of burr and brace comb). I scraped the Piercos again, added a tenth, put them on a strong colony during the flow and they drew them out and filled them just fine. Ditto with another super of white Piercos that I put on a colony of Caucasians that I had started from a package about the same time that I started the Russians. I installed this package (from Farris Homans) on wood frames with wired wax foundation from Kelley's. These Caucasians were building up quickly and I added the Piercos as the second deep on the brood chamber (nine frames with a division feeder). They drew them out nice and straight, filling them solid with brood and stores. During the flow I gave the same colony a super of ten medium white Piercos and they filled them solid with nice straight comb as well. FWIW: I started another colony from a 3 lb Russian package from Tabers on nine frames of white wax coated Mann Lake Rite-Cell and had no problems. I added a second deep of Rite Cell, then a medium of Rite Cell on this same colony and they drew them out nice and straight as well. This is my first season to use plastic frames or foundation, and this was only an experiment. I intend to stick with wood frames & wax foundation, but I have to admit that the convenience is nice. I have no idea how the frames will hold up, or if I'll have problems years from now when I scrape them clean and give them back to the bees to start over. Why did I have the lousy luck with the Piercos that I started the package on? I don't know, and I'm open to ideas. I started them on all new equipment, migratory top, in a good location with lots of good forage and water nearby. They didn't appear to be under any stress. And I've not previously seen any advice against starting a package on Piercos. My results and observations are totally un-scientific, so take them for what they're worth. Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:45:39 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Thomas Cornick Subject: Re: Packages on Pierco plastic frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/13/01 10:44:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, waldig@NETZERO.NET writes: > 1. Are package bees really reluctant to draw comb on plastic frames I think everyone is missing the point. Starting package bees on foundation instead of drawn comb is pretty near bee torturing. It gives them the most work to do and it gives you the least return for their efforts. A package will build up fast on drawn comb after an initial decline. The same package on foundation won't do but half as well, ANY foundation. Given the option draw your foundation into combs on full strength hives that have made nice comb before, even the bees vary a bit from hive to hive. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:14:22 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You said "feed a little" or implied you were only going to feed a jar or so of sugar syrup. When starting a new colony in April or May on all foundation, it is BEST to CONTINUOUSLY feed 1:1 sugar syrup ) 1 pound sugar dissolved in 1 pint water for about 4-5 MONTHS (September) in order to get all the foundation completely drawn, a large population of worker bees built ready to go into the winter STRONG, and a supplement to the 70 pounds of winter stored honey that the bees will need. FAR TOO MANY NEW BEEKEEPERS don't feed enough, and they either lose the bees or they are very weak. They will only eat about 50 pounds of sugar which costs about $15. NEVER, NEVER try to get frames drawn with only 9 frames in the hive body. What a king size mess you will have, because you violated "bee space". ALWAYS start with 10 frames of foundation TIGHTLY PACKED TOGETHER (leaving any space leftover by the wall of the hive body); then after, the foundation is drawn into drawn comb, you can cut back to 9 frames if you like. If you have not bought and read a GOOD BOOK like The Beekeepers Handbook, 3rd Edition dated April 98, by Dr. Diana Sammataro, cost $30, you SHOULD, and that will yield better information than you can get anywhere. The famous Dr. Roger Morse writes that Sammataro's book is "the best of the best" George Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Beginning my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:30:18 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lance, The problem was NOT the plastic, race of bees, or all the other differences. The reason for the MESS of cross comb, burr comb, oversize comb, etc., was you tried to get 9 frames drawn rather than 10, and you violated "bee space". You always get foundation drawn by using 10 frames TIGHTLY PACKED TOGETHER, leaving any leftover space near the side wall of the hive. AFTER the 10 frames are nicely drawn, then you can use them as 9 frames spaced in a body. Forgetting plastic, we have known for 100 years that if you try to draw foundation with only 9 frames spaced apart from each other, you generally (not always) get a king-size mess of cross comb, burr comb, one side real deep and the other side real shallow, etc. ALWAYS DRAW 10 FRAMES OF FOUNDATION TIGHTLY PACKED TOGETHER, NEVER 9 FRAMES SPACED APART! George Imirie CERTIFIED EAS MASTER BEEKEEPER Starting my 70th year of beekeeping in Maryland Author of George's PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:07:19 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Layne Westover Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >>> GImasterBK@AOL.COM 12/13/01 04:30PM >>> Lance, The problem was NOT the plastic, race of bees, or all the other differences. The reason for the MESS of cross comb, burr comb, oversize comb, etc., was you tried to get 9 frames drawn rather than 10, and you violated "bee space". ********** Maybe you didn't notice that Lance said he had a division board feeder in the hive with those 9 frames. That would make it the same as having 10 frames and no bee space was violated. (I've talked to Lance about this one before--most people get it wrong because they forget about the feeder). Layne Westover, here in College Station, Texas, down the street from Lance Parr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:16:11 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Estimating hive population In-Reply-To: <200112131222.fBDCM3v29437@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200112131222.fBDCM3v29437@listserv.albany.edu>, Robert Brenchley writes > The methods suggested will estimate the number of bees actually present >in the hive, and this may well be the best available approximation, but how >many more bees may be out foraging? Is this likely to introduce a significant >error? I like to give children (and adults) the question "How many bees are foraging at this moment?" hint "How many are leaving per second and arriving per second?" and "How long do you think they are out?" I have never come across anyone who has worked it out without both hints. At 5/sec and 20 min that's 6000 - adjust at will. -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:01:14 -0800 Reply-To: beekeeper82@yahoo.com Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Carm Subject: Drawing 9 frames In-Reply-To: <200112132240.fBDMeqv23958@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, I don't usually reply to the discussions going around, but I had a question in regard to a rather emphatic comment, so here goes... > The reason for the MESS of cross comb, burr comb, oversize comb, etc., was you tried to get 9 frames drawn rather than 10, and you violated "bee space". You always get foundation drawn by using 10 frames TIGHTLY PACKED TOGETHER, leaving any leftover space near the side wall of the hive. > Ok, then, if that is the case, then why in the world have my bees always drawn all the frames in over the hundred deep boxes that I have used evenly and nicely... They are all spaced with those western 9 frame spacers. I have never had any problem, maybe a couple of times i got a bit of comb in the wrong spot when the frame was on a slate from having being forced aside but burr comb or whatever below. But that was normally on already drawn comb anyhow... Anyone else always use 9 frames when drawing comb? O, and one more thing, I have even interspersed drawn with undrawn, and most of the time they are not uneven... I live in Ontario, if that makes any difference in how this might be answered. Thanks in advance for any comment. Carmenie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:04:24 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Pierco Frames (and bee space) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George said: >The reason for the MESS of cross comb, burr comb, oversize comb, etc., was you >tried to get 9 frames drawn rather than 10, and you violated "bee space". I couldn't agree more with your comments on using 10 frames tightly packed instead of 9 evenly spaced. However, the 9 frames that I used when I had problems with the sideways comb were tightly packed and didn't violate the bee space. The space that would have been occupied by the missing 10th frame was occupied by a division feeder on the end. Once the 9 frames are close to being drawn I replace the division feeder with the missing 10th frame, then move the feeder up to the second deep that I add with another 9 frames. I feed 1:1 syrup continuously until the bees have substantially drawn out the 9 frames in the second story, then I remove the feeder completely and replace it with the 10th frame. I feed continuously until all comb (save for the very last frame) is drawn. I don't like boardman feeders because I don't think the bees can get enough syrup fast enough from them when they're drawing comb, so I sacrifice the extra frame to give them more food. Better yet, I start the package on drawn comb with a couple of frames of eggs and brood from another colony to get them started. Sorry if I was unclear and it sounded like I advocated using 9 evenly spaced frames in the brood chamber. Quite the contrary. I know that many beekeepers prefer to use 9 frames instead of 10 in honey supers because it results in deeper, easier to uncap, combs. But I always use 10 tightly packed frames in the brood chamber, never 9. I want all the real estate that I can get down there for brood production. One thing that I failed to mention in my earlier post is that about halfway through the season I discovered that I was spacing the Piercos incorrectly. I had been spacing 10 Piercos evenly, leaving what I felt was an uncomfortably wide spacing between them until I learned (through reading) that the 10 frames must be tightly packed and centered in the box to maintain the proper bee space, with the "extra" space be left on the ends. Once I figured this out and started spacing the frames properly I had a lot less burr and brace comb. Since we're on the subject of plastic foundation, does anyone have any comments or comparisons between the plastic foundation sheets from Mann Lake, Pierco, and Dadant? How do they differ, and do the bees seem to care? Or are they made by the same manufacturer? Are there others that I haven't mentioned? And how about the fully drawn plastic combs? I searched the archives when I started my experimentation with plastic this year but I didn't find much about the plastic foundation sheets. Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:50:02 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pierco Frames (and bee space) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lance, Gee, I am glad you explained everything. You solved your own problem. I agree with you about the Boardman feeder. I NEVER use one, mainly because it presents an opportunity to robber bees to invade a new weak hive when there is a nectar dearth. Guess I am just old, but I despise a division board feeder, because the hive has to be opened to check it or replenish the feed, and too often, bees are drowned in the feeder. In cold weather (maybe not in Texas), bees can't get to the division board feeder and might starve. My choice of feeders is a gallon glass jar upside down right on top of the frames. I switched all my 135 colonies to Dadant's Plasticell foundation 20 years ago when it first came out. It is absolutely GREAT STUFF. I wish it had been available 69 years ago when I started beekeeping, because I got so tired of wiring frames and using a spur wire imbedder to fasten the wax to the wire. I bough 100 sheets of Pierco this summer, used some of it on some late splits, and am not as pleased with it as I am with Dadant's plasticell. Maybe, it was just too late to get good comb building, so I will reserve judgment until this coming spring. However, I can say that Dadant's Plasticell, wax coated, is wonderful stuff, bees love it as if it were beeswax foundation, it stays perfectly straight in the frame, my radial extractor can spin it quite fast with no breakage, and if drone cells have been drawn on it, you just take hive tool to scrape those away, give it back to the bees and they make beautiful worker comb again. Basically, I don't like anything made of plastic, but I do like the Plasticell. I don't like the plastic frames that I have seen, because the end bars break off if one tries to move the frames in cold weather. Maybe they will improve this as time goes on. Have a fine holiday season. George Imirie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 00:08:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. In-Reply-To: <200112132239.fBDMd4v23808@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>You said "feed a little" or implied you were only going to feed a jar or so of sugar syrup. Actually my exact words were: 'I expect to have to feed them syrup for a while to let them build up properly.' What I meant was that I would keep feeding until the bees stop taking the syrup and switch to a natural nectar flow. Sorry if I were unclear. >>If you have not bought and read a GOOD BOOK like The Beekeepers Handbook, 3rd Edition dated April 98, by Dr. Diana Sammataro, cost $30, you SHOULD, and that will yield better information than you can get anywhere. I have read the second edition of that book and found it very enlightening. The other one that I liked was Richard Bonney's Practical Guide to Beekeeping. Very well written. I was in my local public library the other day and saw the 98 edition of Dr. Sammataro's The Beekeeper's Handbook. I will definitively read it. The updated version may even have some input on plastic frames. My experience has been that there has not been a lot published on plastic frames. Thank you for all the good advice. Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 0101 04:50:33 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Mike Tooley Subject: Re: Drawing 9 frames .. > Anyone else always use 9 frames when drawing comb? Yep,homemade frames that use wide endbars so only 9 fit in a 6 5/8(med.) super.Drawn over a STRONG hive in a GOOD honeyflow,the combs are drawn perfectly.Nice fat combs,easy to uncap.I only use wood frames and wired wax never did like plastic but may change at some point,because if the flow isnt strong enough to draw foundation the bees will chew out the wax around the wires.So you have to get it right.When using factory frames we will put 10 in the box until drawn because it is hard to get the spacing perfect,otherwise.I dont want to hear about frame spacers,they are just an added expense IMnotsoHO. -Mike --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using InterStar WebMail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:18:20 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry Sergeant said: > The general reputation of the AHB in the West is that it is a killer bee. > Period. ... Even well-meaning information published on the AHB, > compiled by intelligent people, allows no leeway for this bee. Excuse the mass hysteria, but bees simply did not kill people or animals in the western hemisphere before the spread of AHB. Of course the news reports are sensational - they are also sensational when a meteor hits someone's house, or a tornado wipes out a town. People dying in sudden and unusual ways will always be "exciting news copy". While this may seem silly to someone in Africa, where bees are only one small two-paragraph entry in the massive 37 volume encylopedia "Things That Can Kill You Very Dead in Africa", the US has very few "killer" animals of any sort, and fewer still that are near populated areas. If it makes you feel any better, shark attacks at beaches in the US this summer were given all the sensational attention. > ... the seeming determination of Americans to sweep AHBs > under the carpet. > In the US, there appears to be a blind attitude that if you ignore > the AHB, it will go away. It will not > In practice, the attitude in the US towards the AHB is that the only > good AHB is a dead one. Each year, millions of dollars are spent > on locating and destroying AHBs in the US; probably more money > than is spent on US bee research. One must recall that there are many different groups with often conflicting agendas - the "public health officials" certainly want to works towards elimination of AHB near population centers. And yes, "public health" likely does get more money than "bee research". People first, bugs second, or third. Seems fair. Those further north may certainly "ignore" the bee, simply because the consensus is that they will not spread much further. But funding has not been simply limited to "search and destroy". > this bee... is now firmly in occupation of significant parts of the US. AHB do not appear to be spreading much beyond the southernmost line of border states with Mexico. Occasional stow-away swarms have made it well beyond their current range, including one that is presumed to have ridden a boxcar from Texas to Virginia, and another that recently made the error of nesting in the wing of a private airplane, resulting in a mostly-dead colony upon landing. > The only significant limiting factor in the AHB's spread, as in Africa, > would appear to be cold temperatures. While there may be some traits of AHB that would prove useful to a bee breeder, ability to overwinter would be a very basic need for any bee to be bred for US and Canadian use. > It appears bizarre that... the US... with such a freedom-drenched > constitution, cannot see the merits of working WITH the AHB, > rather than against it. I am certain that I have many misconceptions about AHB, so perhaps you can comment on some of the points made about AHBs by respected bee researchers. From what I have read, AHB seems to have a number of negative traits: a) The reports that AHBs abscond at the drop of a hat. b) The reports that AHBs are, by definition, smaller colonies, and are not interested in building up large stores, due to their more tropical origins, where large stores are simply something that needs to be defended. c) The reports that AHBs are certainly good foragers, but they will consume food as fast as it is collected, and are oriented towards producing swarms rather than crops of honey as a "survival tactic". d) The reports that the AHB response to repeated "disturbance" of the hive is to abscond. While this is an effective reaction to repeated forays by a predator, one wonders how they might react to regular monthly hive inspections. Also, a number of people gave talks and showed slides this fall about their summer visits to South African apiaries in conjunction with recent meetings in South Africa. One thing I noticed was that ALL beekeepers in all photos were equipped with bee-suits, many home-made. Elaborate hive-inspection approaches were also described, where multiple "teams" would simultaneously open and work multiple hives quickly in a small apiary so as to flee before the hives got too "nasty". (Clearly, these were not your bees...) So, while your crossbreeds may be docile, the general case in South Africa appears to be that the bees are highly defensive, to the point of forcing 100% bee-suit use. If that is how one must work AHBs, I cannot see these as "desirable bee traits" at all. I often shake or scoop a small number of bees into my hand, just to show visitors that my bees, if unprovoked, are more like tiny Saint Benards than rabid Rottweilers. This little trick is key to the calm attitude of the residents of neighboring farms about my bees, and bees in general. (No I don't do "bee-beards", as I am not employed by a carnival sideshow...) While I like gentle bees for ease of working, the trait of "gentle" is a critical one for the urban and suburban hobby beekeepers, since they can only keep bees if their neighbors will be tolerant. While the US constitution may well appear to be "freedom soaked", most authorities will certainly rule that too many bee-sting incidents means "public nuisance - move the bees", as the rights of "the many" outweigh the rights of "the few" in such cases. For the typical hobby beekeeper, "gentle" must be the primary concern, even if the "gentle" bees are less productive. So, if we were to crossbreed AHB into existing stocks, what would we get? What would we WANT from AHB stock? We have lots docile breeds to pick from now, and they all overwinter fine. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:26:25 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Pierco Frames (and bee space) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George said: >Guess I am just old, but I despise a division board feeder, because the hive >has to be opened to check it or replenish the feed, and too often, bees are >drowned in the feeder. I have a solution for both of those problems as well. To refill the feeder I slide the migratory top over just enough to expose the feeder (it's always on the end) and pour the syrup in. I don't even need smoke to do this. After I've filled the feeders a couple of times the bees have figured out what's going on and they greet me with enthusiasm when the cover's slid aside. I fan fold a piece of window screen and slide it inside of the feeder before I fill it to give the bees something to climb out of the syrup if they fall in. I used to have a lot of drowned bees before I started adding the screen. The only other problem that I've had with division feeders is that they tend to sag in the Texas heat when full of syrup. I solved that problem by drilling two sets of holes directly across from each other about 1/4 inch from the top rim and threading long 1/8 inch bolts of a length that's just longer than the width of the non-deformed feeder, and secure them with locking n! uts. This keeps the top of the feeder from spreading and adds enough rigidity to keep them from sagging. I noticed that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm includes plastic clips with their division feeders to accomplish the same thing. My favorite division feeders are from Mann Lake. They are heavier than the others and don't require my modification to keep them from sagging. >In cold weather (maybe not in Texas), bees can't get to the >division board feeder and might starve. I only feed in warm weather. Definitely not a problem in Texas. I feed in the spring and fall to medicate with Terramycin and Fumdil B, and to boost colonies that are light coming out of the "winter" (which I put in quotes because we really don't have one here in Texas). Sometimes I'll feed light colonies (late swarms or wall removals) going into the fall, but I generally leave them enough stores so it isn't a problem. >My choice of feeders is a gallon glass jar upside down right on top of the frames. Don't you have to open the hive to refill the jar? And what keeps the bees from filling the space around the feeder with comb? I know that a lot of beekeepers feed this way with no problem and I've always wondered how they get away with it. I still like my division feeders because a lot of bees can get to the syrup at once and I don't need an extra deep super to put around the jar. I can feed a gallon every two days like this to a colony that's starting to build (which means that I have to fill the feeder every other day). >I agree with you about the Boardman feeder. I NEVER use one, mainly because >it presents an opportunity to robber bees to invade a new weak hive when there is >a nectar dearth. Fire ants are my bane. I've had to isolate colonies using jar lids filled with vegetable oil (never use motor oil for this - it'll turn your apiary into a hazmat scene and it's not environmentally friendly). And I've had rogue colonies rob out of a neighbor's division feeder during a dearth. I generally reduce entrances when I feed to try to keep this from getting started. Once it gets started all I can do is stop feeding until the robbers forget where the food is and loose interest. >Have a fine holiday season. And you as well, George! And the same to the rest of the BEE-L family! Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:25:31 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Division Feeders Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit George said: >Guess I am just old, but I despise a division board feeder, because the hive >has to be opened to check it or replenish the feed, and too often, bees are >drowned in the feeder. I have a solution for both of those problems as well. To refill the feeder I slide the migratory top over just enough to expose the feeder (it's always on the end) and pour the syrup in. I don't even need smoke to do this. After I've filled the feeders a couple of times the bees have figured out what's going on and they greet me with enthusiasm when the cover's slid aside. I fan fold a piece of window screen and slide it inside of the feeder before I fill it to give the bees something to climb out of the syrup if they fall in. I used to have a lot of drowned bees before I started adding the screen. The only other problem that I've had with division feeders is that they tend to sag in the Texas heat when full of syrup. I solved that problem by drilling two sets of holes directly across from each other about 1/4 inch from the top rim and threading long 1/8 inch bolts of a length that's just longer than the width of the non-deformed feeder, and secure them with locking n! uts. This keeps the top of the feeder from spreading and adds enough rigidity to keep them from sagging. I noticed that Brushy Mountain Bee Farm includes plastic clips with their division feeders to accomplish the same thing. My favorite division feeders are from Mann Lake. They are heavier than the others and don't require my modification to keep them from sagging. >In cold weather (maybe not in Texas), bees can't get to the >division board feeder and might starve. I only feed in warm weather. Definitely not a problem in Texas. I feed in the spring and fall to medicate with Terramycin and Fumdil B, and to boost colonies that are light coming out of the "winter" (which I put in quotes because we really don't have one here in Texas). Sometimes I'll feed light colonies (late swarms or wall removals) going into the fall, but I generally leave them enough stores so it isn't a problem. >My choice of feeders is a gallon glass jar upside down right on top of the frames. Don't you have to open the hive to refill the jar? And what keeps the bees from filling the space around the feeder with comb? I know that a lot of beekeepers feed this way with no problem and I've always wondered how they get away with it. I still like my division feeders because a lot of bees can get to the syrup at once and I don't need an extra deep super to put around the jar. I can feed a gallon every two days like this to a colony that's starting to build (which means that I have to fill the feeder every other day). >I agree with you about the Boardman feeder. I NEVER use one, mainly because >it presents an opportunity to robber bees to invade a new weak hive when there is >a nectar dearth. Fire ants are my bane. I've had to isolate colonies using jar lids filled with vegetable oil (never use motor oil for this - it'll turn your apiary into a hazmat scene and it's not environmentally friendly). And I've had rogue colonies rob out of a neighbor's division feeder during a dearth. I generally reduce entrances when I feed to try to keep this from getting started. Once it gets started all I can do is stop feeding until the robbers forget where the food is and loose interest. >Have a fine holiday season. And you as well, George! And the same to the rest of the BEE-L family! Take care, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 23:49:46 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: waldig Subject: Re: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) In-Reply-To: <200112132115.fBDLFnv19987@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>This is my first season to use plastic frames or foundation, and this was only an experiment. I intend to stick with wood frames & wax foundation, but I have to admit that the convenience is nice. Lance, It sounded as though that once you used all 10 frames things went rather smoothly, which is encouraging. What is the reason for your decision to remain with wood? I am only asking to have a better understanding. I appreciate your sharing your experience. Waldemar ---------------------------------------------------- Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:03:35 -0500 Reply-To: mpalmer@together.net Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: michael palmer Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > > Excuse the mass hysteria, but bees simply did not kill people or > animals in the western hemisphere before the spread of AHB. > > > Not so. I personally know of two attacks which proved deadly - before AHB came to this continent. Both were attacks on animals while honey was being harvested close by. The first was two hound dogs, stung to death while chained to their dog houses. The second was a cow stung to death while in a small pen. In both cases, the animals could not get away from the attacking bees. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dann Purvis II Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. In-Reply-To: <200112132113.fBDLDfv19846@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Was this per chance more than 3 years ago ? I understand Pierco > strengthened the top bar in the one piece molded frames to make them > more inflexible about 3 years ago. Anyone else experience a problem > within the last 3 years ? > I love them. They're the best thing since duct tape. You will break a wooden frame much faster than a "new type" Pierco. They sometimes require a little more effort in getting them drawn out but it's usually no problem if the hive is strong and during a good flow (real or simulated). I find the waxed variety works the best. They require less initial work. If you have the proper bee space, you will not have a problem with burr or brace comb. Pack them in as tight as possible. Leave no space between the frames. Two years ago, I had a bear get 11 hives in one yard. All of the wooden frames were completely destroyed while the Pierco made it through entirely. Old comb can be scraped off. Also, they are cheaper in the short and long run. With the hives I lost and "AFTER" the wax moth "MOVED IN", I just scraped off the parts that they chew up and reinstall into a strong hive to be redrawn. Try that with Wood. The only negative I can possibly see is they aren't as old fashioned as the old wooden ones. Depends on how much time you have and where you want to spend it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dann Purvis Purvis Brothers Honey 5122 Trackrock Camp Road Blairsville, GA USA 706 781 3122 dannzann@alltel.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 06:26:58 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Keim Subject: State wants interview with me regarding Cumaphos use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" I am a sideliner in Northeast Kansas, and run about 100 colonies. This is my 6th season upcoming. Last spring I ordered Checkmite strips for varroa control from Mann Lake, as I did the year before. Yesterday a representative from the Kansas State Department of Ag. (didn't state which branch) called and questioned my wife about installation, disposal and use, and whether Mann Lake had sent the proper labeling for of the Checkmite strips. He told her that Mann Lake was required by law to report this to the State of Kansas, and that was how they knew we used them. My wife doesn't work in the yards with me, so she told him he would need to talk to me. As the conversation progressed, he began questioning where our yards were, and indicated he would like to inspect them, and that he also wants an interview with me. He said we were the only ones he had contacted that use them in the sate (which I find hard to believe.) I am going to contact the State Inspector before I call him back, but I was wondering if anyone else had an experience like this, and am trying to anticipate where this could lead. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks. John Keim Fairview, KS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:57:47 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Division Feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George said: > My choice of feeders is a gallon glass jar upside down > right on top of the frames. and Lance Parr asked: > Don't you have to open the hive to refill the jar? I use the plastic one-gallon buckets with the fine screen mesh openings in the top. I don't like glass - too fragile (or perhaps I am simply too rough on equipment). Unlike George, I place the bucket on the inner cover so the bucket hole sits over the hole in the inner cover. (I also cover the other (vent) holes in the inner cover that I have added.) Since the inner cover keeps the bees below, and the bucket is surrounded by a pair of empty medium supers, one can pop off the outer cover with ease to swap empty buckets for full ones. > And what keeps the bees from filling the space around the > feeder with comb? Same thing - the inner cover seems to be an effective barrier. With a weak colony or a spilt, one may not need this. I think that the "risk" only applies to strong colonies. If one is feeding in early spring, the risk of wild comb being built is also low, as they are assumed to have lots of empty comb to fill, and comb-building would not be "triggered" unless they were running out of space. > I still like my division feeders because a lot of bees can get to > the syrup at once and I don't need an extra deep super to put > around the jar. I think that the extra super(s) are a good thing, since it is a visual cue to force one to not forget the feeder. I have stenciled numbers on my supers, so I put the feeder-enclosure supers on upside-down so it will be obvious that they are not regular supers. I have seen too many division-board feeders forgotten, and later filled with wild comb. I also like the speed with which one can swap buckets, and the lack of need to disturb the bees when doing so. > I can feed a gallon every two days like this to a colony that's > starting to build (which means that I have to fill the feeder every other day). This sounds like a pain - have you considered the wooden hive-top feeders that look like a shallow super? Here's some plans: http://members.aol.com/beetools/buildit.htm They have an "entrance" that goes up between the two "swimming pools" of syrup. The bees climb up to the top of the pool wall, and climb down the other side, which puts them between the wall, and a mesh "ladder" both which go down to the syrup. They can hold 5 Gallons, 10 Gallons, whatever. These feeders must be (re)filled on the hive, as they would be difficult to carry when full. While sealing the corners so the feeder does not leak is a constant issue, these feeders allow one to refill much less often. jim farmageddon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:54:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: AHBs in the US Hi Jim The very reason we developed strains of pedigreed African (scutellata) bees was in recognition that wild scutellata are unsuited for commercial honey production. The conventional wisdom goes something like this. Scuts produce a (small) meal of honey for you, but during honey cropping, you are likely to be stung into oblivion. The disturbance would cause significant mortalities among the hive population, from mass stinging, but also from stress; the remaining colony may then simply go walkabouts. Hell of a thing. You have touched on some negative aspects of wild scuts; a fuller summary follows: 1. Normally hyper-defensive; large, established colonies are a menace in any language 2. Highly developed swarming instinct (largely manageable, however, by judicious and timely provision of extra space) 3. Liable to abscond with little provocation 4. Extremely nervous during handling, leading to stress losses 5. Excessively nervous during migration, leading to stress losses, and losses from fighting following boiling out. Also, some 10 to 20% of queens are balled and killed during migration 6. Poor ability to match brood rearing to flow cycle (still going for bust, for example, near the end of a flow) 7. Prefers warmer climates. You referred to > reports that AHBs are, by definition, smaller colonies, > and are not interested in building up large stores. And > reports that AHBs are certainly good foragers, but they > will consume food as fast as it is collected. These reports may be correct in certain locations, and at certain times of the year. However, wild scut colonies managed by an experienced beekeeper can become quite large, and produce lots of harvestable honey. For example, some years ago, a South African beekeeper, Mr A E Schnetler, twice broke the then-world record for honey production. The larger figure, produced by one multi-queened hive in one year, was 2120 pounds (yes, more than two thousand pounds). It has taken years, but the negative characteristics numbered above have been minimised or eliminated in the pedigreed scuts. The breeding programme followed the closed system described by the Americans Laidlaw and Page. Recessive characteristics (such as docile behaviour) were initially identified in certain wild swarms. These recessives were combined into various lines of bees, using instrumental insemination. We have simultaneously enhanced desirable characteristics found in the original wild scuts. These include pest and disease resistance, hygienic behaviour, excellent foraging capabilities, rapid wax and brood formation, and the ability to survive on marginal flows. In addition, two of the main five pedigreed lines have been upsized to enhanced over-wintering capabilities. I not pretend to have anywhere near all the answers to the AHB situation in US. But I would stick to the philosophy of trying to work with, and not against, AHBs. To take but one example - drone saturation, an old technique in bee management. Produce loads of pedigreed drones in a given apiary, and you will soon influence the genetics of wild bees in the area. By no means am I suggesting that you should crossbreed AHBs with your excellent bees. I am suggesting that AHBs in the US should be managed in themselves. To repeat the point, if scuts can survive in such prolific numbers in Africa, they can survive anywhere. Cold temperatures appear to be the only significant limiting factor. You asked: > What would we WANT from AHB stock? Well, allow me to be cheeky here. You might want single hives (with multiple pedigreed queens, and docile bees that require no treatment for pests or disease) that produce more than 2000 pounds of honey in a year. Thing is, they would just have to be scuts. Barry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:52:45 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tim Vaughan Subject: Re: State wants interview with me regarding Cumaphos use John, I just applied the same medication to the same number of hives, which I got from the same source as you. In California, they wouldn't even send the strips out without me first getting tons of stuff done, including a temporary Sec. 18 license. This included a long test, etc. Then after Mann sent the strips, I had to inform the Ag commisioner when and where, etc.. I wouldn't worry if I were you at this point. But don't volunteer any information. Call the office and tell them that you want to conform to the law, and you want them to help you. When you throw it back into their court, it's usually helpful. Just remember not to volunteer any info they they don't specifically ask for. Tim P.S. I first used Apistan because I didn't want to go through all that nonsense, but it didn't work. For me at any rate, Check mite was worth the effort as even a hive I had written off looked great last I checked, and it was just a short time after I put in Check mite. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:11:59 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Michael Housel Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would not use full plastic frames. Small Hive Beetles use the outside corners for hiding places. This is to small for the bees to get at them. The beetles will wait until the bee moves on and then come out. Michael Housel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:36:16 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: State wants interview with me regarding Cumaphos use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Keim wrote: > As the conversation progressed, he began questioning where our yards were, > and indicated he would like to inspect them, and that he also wants an > interview with me. He said we were the only ones he had contacted that use > them in the sate (which I find hard to believe.) > > I am going to contact the State Inspector before I call him back, but I was > wondering if anyone else had an experience like this, and am trying to > anticipate where this could lead. I would appreciate any advice. Thanks. The first option is not to bother to call back. It sounds like a fishing expedition and they usually end up with something being caught - in this case, you no matter how innocent you may think you are. The next is to be too busy or away and they are not allowed to inspect without you being there. Stonewall. Once, a long time ago, I would have recommended cooperation, but no longer. I allowed a benign group from the State to inspect the waterfront of our home. No one else in the area did. I strongly support proper safeguards to the environment. They reported out that there were some endangered species in the tidal area, but it was no big deal because they were only endangered because it was the northern limit of their habitat. Lots of them down south. In all it was a good, balanced report. But. The local environmental fanatics got hold of it, twisted it and effectively rammed through a set of ordinances which limit my use of my land ( and I am the chairman of the zoning board!). We were able to keep it fairly reasonable, but in an adjacent town, it became draconian. Never again will I cooperate with the State. When the Alar scare hit, many apple growers in Maine cooperated with the State and provided them with their spraying schedule. The State made it public, the fanatics blacklisted the growers and no one bought their apples. Several went out of business. Those who sprayed -even contrary to directions- but did not cooperate, were fine and sold all their apples. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 04:41:08 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > ...I sprayed each frame with the same 2:1 sugar syrup Was it WAXED Pierco? The unwaxed version does NOT work well. I don't know WHY they sell it. >...they had ...begun building transverse (parallel with the front of the > hive, 90 degrees the frames) strips of comb between the frames. > I pulled all the frames and scraped the comb away > ...a week later and found the exact same thing, repeating the > process of scraping away the comb and forcing them to start over. > Why did I have the lousy luck with the Piercos that I started the package > on? The bees were TRYING to tell you something. They wanted you to turn the hive ninety degrees. B. HAVER ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:45:21 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Barry Sergeant Subject: Re: AHBs in the US Hi Jim This is hardly a forum for counting body bags, or similar, but allow me to quote some references on US bee attacks from long ago; long before the AHB arrived in the US. I wrote: >> The general reputation of the AHB in the West is that it is a killer >> bee. Period. ... Even well-meaning information published on the >> AHB, compiled by intelligent people, allows no leeway for this bee. You wrote: > Excuse the mass hysteria, but bees simply did not kill people or > animals in the western hemisphere before the spread of AHB. Here I quote a couple of documented samples; specifically, from A.I. Root in 1920, per http://www.beesource.com/eob/laws/rootlaw.htm "A case in point is Parsons vs. Manser, 119 Iowa 92, 62 L. R. A. 132, decided in 1903, the facts of the case being that the beekeeper had a hitching post in front of his house. This post was located in the public highway; about 25 feet from the post, but in the beekeeper's yard, there were two bee-gums. The plaintiff, Parsons, was a medicine peddler. He called at Manser's house and tied his horses to the hitching post. The bees attacked the horses and stung them to death." "EARL VS. VAN ALSTINE The facts in this case were: That Van Alstine was the owner of 15 hives of bees. The bees were kept in his yard, adjoining the public highway. Earl, the plaintiff in the case, was traveling along the highway with a team of horses, and when he passed Van Alstine's place the bees attacked his horses and stung them so severely one died. Action was brought in the Justice's Court and Earl secured judgment for the sum of $70.25 and costs." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:42:11 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Division Feeders MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > Unlike George, I place the bucket on the inner cover > so the bucket hole sits over the hole in the inner cover. > (I also cover the other (vent) holes in the inner cover > that I have added.) One of our beekeepers cuts holes in the inner cover the size of the lids on the gallon jars he uses to feed his bees. Just inverts the jar and puts in in the hole. Easy to change and gets right down to the bees with no need to bother the bees. He just leaves a lid in place when not feeding. Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 10:45:08 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) Comments: To: BEEHAVER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -----Original Message----- From: BEEHAVER [SMTP:BEE_HAVER@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:41 AM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: FW: BEE-L: approval required (935AAB1D) Hello All, Was it WAXED Pierco? The unwaxed version does NOT work well. I don't know WHY they sell it. We have used the unwaxed version for years. When the temperature is correct , the hive is strong and the bees are in the mood to draw wax we see no difference in the wax and unwaxed being drawn. Timing is important plus feeding in getting plastic drawn. ALWAYS PUSH FRAMES OF FOUNDATION TOGETHER TO BE DRAWN A quart of syrup in a boardman feeder every Saturday on your day off will not get plastic drawn. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ted Fischer Subject: Re: On Pierco plastic frames. I have used Pierco brood frames for some time now. One problem that I have not seen discussed is due to the excess bee space when a brood chamber of Pierco is placed beneath a chamber of wood frames. When trying to separate the two brood chambers burr comb holds the Pierco frames, making them lift up off their frame supports. This causes difficulty in lifting off the upper brood chamber. I have to insert the hive tool and pry down the Pierco frames, while holding up the brood chamber with the other hand. This is awkward, and often the bees do not like it at all! Ted Fischer Dexter, Michigan USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:29:13 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: State wants interview with me regarding Cumaphos use MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello John and All, What you are seeing has happened in other states. I would simply comply. = Be honest and not to worry. They are probably running a study to see if = Kansas needs to continue with the section 18.=20 State bee inspectors can look at your hives any time they want. I would = not want the seals broken on hives this time of year without a good = reason .however Call Gary Ross and ask his opinion if they want to = dig through hives this time of year. Your state inspector will set the = uniformed ag worker straight concerning winter inspections. Cooperate = is better than getting mad.=20 Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:24:56 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: [BeeGadgets] Re: Radio telemetry Comments: To: BeeGadgets@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>i installed a stereo microphone pair inside the hive with the thought = of using it for apidictor purposes....but mostly i use it to plug in=20 headphones and hear inside the hive in stereo .<<< Auto supply stores sell an inexpensive stethoscope with a long probe = that can be used to listen to bees in hives, either through a hole in = the hive or by probing around in the cluster in an open hive.=20 allen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:10:42 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Waxed or unwaxed plastic? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Bob Harrison asked: >Was it WAXED Pierco? I've used only waxed. After seeing comments on this list about un-waxed plastic frames & foundation I was afraid of even trying it. I've used both waxed white Pierco frames and waxed Rite Cell sheets from Mann Lake. If I headed all of the aforementioned caveats I had no problems. I only had acceptance problems when there was a marginal flow. I bought some waxed black Dadant Plasticell at a conference recently, which I'll try next season. Happy Holidays! Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:54:06 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lance Parr Subject: Re: Plastic Frames & Foundation vs. Wood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Addressing my previous comment: >I intend to stick with wood frames & wax foundation, >but I have to admit that the convenience is nice. Waldemar asked: >What is the reason for your decision to remain with wood? Fewer problems with wax & wood. I've never my bees do oddball things like filling a brood nest with longitudinally oriented comb with wax & wood. They don't seem to propolize and brace as much with wood. Even after I figured out what I was doing wrong with the Pierco plastic frame spacing and got my act together I still consistently had much more propolis and brace. Pulling two boxes apart is sometimes quite an adventure because of all of the brace between the bottoms of the frames in one box with the tops of the frames in the box below. I'm not going to say that it's never happened with wood, but it *always* seems to happen with plastic (either plastic against plastic or plastic against wood). And I don't seem to have as much trouble coaxing them to draw wax foundation out under marginal conditions. As has already been noted by many, you have to have a strong flow on to get them to accept it. I also don't want to have to deal with "interoperability" issues in exchan! ging brood combs in my apiary. Mixing wood & plastic in the same box is asking for it owing to size and spacing issues, so I would prefer to have all of the same thing in all of my brood chambers so it's not an issue. And, doggone it, wood & wax just smells better (in my opinion)! There's nothing quite like the smell of a fresh box of foundation to lift your spirits on a cold winter's day while you're inserting and wiring into frames, which I consider excellent therapy in and of itself. I just don't get as much satisfaction from dumping 10 Piercos into a box. But I openly acknowledge that many beekeepers have better things to do with their time than building and wiring frames, and are overjoyed at dumping 10 Piercos into a box and being done with it. To each their own. Call me a traditionalist (here at A&M we're just like that I guess). I'm certainly not planning on purging my Piercos. I just won't use them for brood or starting packages any more. And I'll continue to experiment with plastic frames & foundation in the future. I may even change my mind. Perhaps it's different if you use 100% plastic and you've gotten used to the differences and changed your practices accordingly. I enjoy experimenting and I'll continue to do so. That's part of what make beekeeping so much fun for me. BTW: Has anyone any experiences to report with the Dadant plastic frames (I think they were called Plastiframe)? I notice that they've disappeared from the Dadant web site catalog, and were shown as a clearance item in the last paper catalog. Happy Holidays! Take care, Lance Parr Network Specialist II Physical Plant Telecommunications Texas A&M University Mail Stop 1371 College Station, Texas 77843-1371 L-Parr@tamu.edu (979) 458-1746 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 14:52:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Plastic Frames & Foundation vs. Wood MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My preference is wooden frames with wax coated plastic foundation. I like the feel and smell of the wood, and the convenience of plastic foundation. I very much DISLIKE how the all plastic frames torque. Regarding the brace attached to the top of the plastic top bars (regardless if it's plastic or wood above it), it was reported on BEE-L tat a strip of masking tape on to of the top bars works well to dissuade the bees from building brace comb. Haven't tried it myself. There's been nothing new in this current round of Pierco frames that isn't already in the archives. http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/archives/bee-l.html Aaron Morris - thinking BEE-L archives, search 'em early, search 'em often! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:25:47 -0800 Reply-To: mdshepherd@xerces.org Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Matthew Shepherd Subject: New APHIS regulations could have a positive impact on pollinators =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=96_comments_needed.?= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bee-Lers, APHIS is reviewing and updating its regulations controlling the interstate= transport of pests (diseases, parasites, fungi, insects, etc.) that might= affect plants or plant beneficial insects. The original comment period= ended Monday. I just received official confirmation that this deadline has= now been extended by 30 days, so there is time to read and respond to the= APHIS proposal and to let more people know that this review is happening. For the first time (as far as we are aware) the new regulations actually= state that pollinators are important and there is language about limiting= the release of organisms that could harm "important" native and managed= pollinators. The regulations consider the risk of indirect injury,= disease, or damage to beneficial organisms, and are looking for comments= and suggestions on the most appropriate way of defining the importance and= availability of pollinators. To quote from the Fed Register: "Our determination as to the ``importance'' of a natural enemy or a= pollinator would be based on our review of available information in the= scientific literature regarding the role of those organisms in suppressing= plant pest or weed populations or in the pollination of crops and native= plants." If pollinators are to get the best protection, these regulations need to= recognize the importance of both managed and unmanaged populations. Any= comments members of this list can submit to APHIS would be a valuable= contribution. The second significant change is in Sec 330.203 (see below). The= regulations list species that are not considered to be pests, and which= "may be moved within the continental United States without a permit if= they are moved from populations located within the continental United= States." The movement of everything else is regulated. We believe this is= a positive move as apposed to the other way round with a short list of= problem species that are regulated and then endless debate over whether= other species should or should not be added to the list. Sec. 330.203 Requirements for the release into the environment of= regulated organisms. (a) Environmental release of [any] plant pests [including the monarch].= The release into the environment of plant pests is prohibited except under= the following circumstances: (1) A plant pest that IS LISTED in Sec. 330.202(c)(1) may be released= into the environment within the continental United States without a permit= if the organism was collected from a population located within the= continental United States. (2) A plant pest that IS NOT LISTED in Sec. 330.202(c)(1) may be= released into the environment in the United States only for research or= testing purposes and only if the release is authorized by an APHIS permit= and is conducted in accordance with any safeguards assigned as a condition= of the permit. Instructions for applying for a permit are found in Sec.= 330.205. (b) Environmental release of organisms for the biological control of= weeds. Although the regulations above are positive there are also concerns. The= list of organisms that can be released without review or a permit include= many butterfly species that conservationists (Bob Pyle and Lincoln Brower= among them) are concerned should not be allowed to be released. These regulations are important and I urge anyone who is interested (and= has the time!) to read them and comment. The Society will be developing= comments and can send them out when we have a draft for people to 1) copy= as much as you like, 2) sign on too. We should have a draft by the end of= December. Please let me know at mdshepherd@xerces.org if you would like= additional information. The full announcement (about 40 pages long) was made in the Federal= Register of 10/9/01, available on-line at:= http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2001/October/Day-09/i25229.htm.= (The principal section discussing pollinators is about one sixth of the= way through the announcement.) Thanks, Matthew _____________________________________________________________ Matthew Shepherd Director, Pollinator Program and Publications The Xerces Society 4828 SE Hawthorne Blvd, Portland, OR 97215 Tel: 503-232 6639 Fax: 503-233 6794 Email: mdshepherd@xerces.org _____________________________________________________________ The Xerces Society is an international nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting biological diversity through the conservation of invertebrates. For information and membership details, see our website: http://www.xerces.org/ _____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "Dr. Ken Lightle Ph.D." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello all! I am swithching exclusively to Pierco one piece frames. Spray them, or dip them in a 2:1 sugar syrup and some "Honey Bee Healthy". The bees take to them immediately and 10 frames are drwan out in about 2-3 weeks. Ken www.buckeyebee.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 21:16:03 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: AHBs in the US Beekeepers: Barry Sergeant had this to say among other things: >This is hardly a forum for counting body bags, or similar, but allow me to quote some references on US bee attacks from long ago; long before the AHB arrived in the US. If I may wade in with a couple of pennies worth of comment--wasn't there a discussion in the not too distant past right here on Bee-L about the New England beekeeper killed by honey bees that were not AHB? Yes, I think it was finally determined to be a heart attack or similar cause. Still, his bees had attacked him, hadn't they? Who hasn't kept bees for a while and had the rare surprising virulent attacks from their *docile* non AHB bees? I certainly have. It happens. Regards, Dick