From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Jan 3 12:46:57 2003 Return-Path: <> Delivered-To: adamf@ibiblio.org Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by mail.ibiblio.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64C6524ADEE for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from listserv.albany.edu (listserv.albany.edu [169.226.1.24]) by listserv.albany.edu (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id h03GhO45010284 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200301031746.h03GhO45010284@listserv.albany.edu> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:46:55 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Albany (1.8d)" Subject: File: "BEE-L LOG0112D" To: adamf@IBIBLIO.ORG Content-Length: 70717 Lines: 1597 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:11:57 GMT Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Tom Barrett Subject: Diary of Federation of Irish Beekeeping Associations trip to South Africa for Apimondia 2001www.irishbeekeeping.ie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello All Sorry - a correction: I wrote as follows: >I have posted a diary of our trip to South Africa at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishbeekeeping/files/ > >You may wish to download it. I do hope that you enjoy reading it. > >I am happy to say that Ireland was selected at Apimondia 2001 as the host for Apimondia 2005 which will be held in September 2005 at the world famous RDS grounds in Dublin where the Dublin Horse Show is held each year. For those members of BEE-L who are not on the Irish Beekeeping Discussion List please download the Diary at www.irishbeekeeping.ie Click on 'Downloads' and then click on 'Diary of FIBKA Trip to South Africa'. Sincerely Tom Barrett Dublin Ireland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 23:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Beekeepers: A summary of Dr. Gerald Loper’s remarks at the Northwest Corner Fall Conference was presented in the Nov/Dec newsletter of the Oregon State Beekeepers Association. Dr. Loper had some interesting observations on feral bees in Arizona. He stated that on average, prior to the arrival of mites, feral colonies survived 3 ½ years. The last genetic data he had was from December 1998. It appears that about 85% of surviving colonies were AHB. These had repopulated nest sites to about 35% of the European Honey Bee level. At the worst of the Varroa infestation, instead of 3 ½ years, swarms were only living about six months. He says the length of survival has been gradually increasing to at least 1 ½ years on average. Regards, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 11:56:07 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bob & Liz Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Dick Allen [SMTP:dickallen@GCI.NET] Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 10:13 PM To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Re: AHBs in the US Hello Dick and All, Dick quoted: At the worst of the Varroa infestation, instead of 3 1/2 years, swarms = were only living about six months. He says the length of survival has = been gradually increasing to at least 1 1/2 years on average. If you study the data posted by the USDA on their study of those almost = 300 feral swarms in Arizona in the late 90's you will see highest death = rate was by tracheal mites and not varroa when the swarms were only = lasting 6 months. As for the above. Any strong swarm with only the amount of varroa the = swarm can carry with it in the swarm should survive almost two years = regardless of AHB or European in its new location. . Absconding and constant swarming are ways Ahb can survive varroa. Sadly = bees can not avoid tracheal mites in the same manner. I suspect the = most susceptible to tracheal mites AHB have died off and most feral = swarms in Arizona today can survive longer without treatment. I don't = believe the USDA is looking as hard at feral swarms in Arizona today as = they did in the middle to late 90's. I would love to see a update on = those feral swarms. Sincerely, Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 12:20:57 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: soil quality affects nectar quantity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From BiologicalBeekeeping@yahoogroups.com : ------ Harvey wrote. The last time I looked "Alfalfa" and "Soy Beans" are a source for pollination by bees. Reply, This is true - sometimes. Alfalfa produces good honey, if allowed to flower. And pollination is important, only if the farmer wants seed. In our area alfalfa is grown for hay, and cut just as it begins to flower, when it is most nutritious. Seed is grown in a different state. Soy beans are "a horse of a different color." At our state bee meeting, most will tell you, 'they cannot get honey from soybeans', though a few will tell you, 'they get a good crop, however farmers will not pay for pollination because it is not required'. Occasionally you will find a beekeeper that will tell you, 'they get a high price for pollination of soybeans, but they have to feed the bees or they will starve'. When someone started looking for answers they found that, on poorer soils, soybeans produce little or no nectar and honeybee pollination substantially increases bean production. On the richest soils soybeans produce a lot more beans and honey bees make a lot of honey, but the presence of honey bees does not affect bean production. Where I am, is somewhere in between. When the soybeans are in bloom the honey flow is much slower than in spring and earlier in the summer. During this time there are some wild flowers and weeds in bloom, I know not how much honey comes from which. As the hives gain only a couple pounds a week during soybean bloom, I care not which. The land owner where my bees are located, sees no difference since I returned bees to his property. There has been discussion here in this group, about how latitude and elevation and/or average temperature has affected the size and color of the honeybee. It is, I think obvious that these along with the available moisture [weather] also affects the variety of floral sources and quantity of nectar. I was surprised to learn how much soil quality affects nectar quantity. The Survey of St. Charles County Missouri describes 40 different soil series and the variations within each. In some places, at the line between two different soil types there is an abrupt change in native vegetation and even crops which will grow. Moving bees three or four miles in an area like this can double or cut in half honey production, even from the same species of flower. Micky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:46:20 +0100 Reply-To: Ahlert Schmidt Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Ahlert Schmidt Subject: Radicals and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Radical honey. The antioxidant benefits of fruits, vegetables, red wine, tea and other food-stuffs are well known, but what about honey? New research has shown that honey posesses antioxidant actions, with darker honeys having a greater capacity for oxygen radical absorbance. The results, presented at the recent annual meeting of the Institue of Food Technologists (New Orleans, LA; USA), also revealed that the antioxidant properties of honey are primarily due to the presence of phenolic compounds, rather than ascorbic acid or enzymatic antioxidants. The ability of antioxidants to mop up and inactivate free redicals - the accumulation of which can lead to tissue damage and underpins various diseases - highlights the importance of understanding the behaviour of antioxidants found in foods and other natural sources. From: BioMedNet browther November 2001. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 11:56:46 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Inger Lamb Subject: inspection data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All- Recently I asked you for information on how different states handle = their hive inspections and would like to thank all who responded, it has = been very helpful and interesting too. =20 I am now trying to write a grant to get funding for inspections in the = year 2002 while the Iowa Honey Producers Association scramble to get a = new system in place for the future. Does anyone know of any citations I = could use to support the concept that not doing inspections will lead to = increased levels of hive infestation? I would think there have been = cases in the past where for one reason or another inspections have been = missed to the detriment of the honey industry, but I'm not sure where to = even start looking. Thanks again Inger Lamb, secretary, IHPA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:22:30 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: John Edwards Subject: Re: AHBs in the US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob & Liz wrote: > > Absconding and constant swarming are ways Ahb can survive varroa. Sadly = > bees can not avoid tracheal mites in the same manner. I suspect the = > most susceptible to tracheal mites AHB have died off and most feral = > swarms in Arizona today can survive longer without treatment. I don't = > believe the USDA is looking as hard at feral swarms in Arizona today as = > they did in the middle to late 90's. I would love to see a update on = > those feral swarms. > Sincerely, > Bob Harrison I suppose you all know that there is no AHB work on feral swarms going on from the Tucson beelab except Dr. Justin Schmidt, who is now one-half of the USDA scientist staff - the other half being Dr. Gloria Hoffman. In the last year or so, retirements have included Charles Shipman, research specialist Louie Gasca - mechanical specialist John Edwards - research technician Dr. Hayward Spangler - entomologist Dr. Gerry Loper - has cut his collaborator ties with the lab (I understand) Dr. Martha Gilliam - has cut her collaborator ties with the lab (I understand) Dr. Jonathan Cnaani, visiting from Israel, has moved his bumblebee office to the UA campus Dr. Eric Erickson - lab director and location coordinator (retiring Jan. 3, 2002) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 17:56:34 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: GImasterBK@AOL.COM Subject: Re: inspection data MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Inger, I am glad you got in touch with Bart Smith, who gave you a fine answer. In 2002, I begin my 70th year of beekeeping in MARYLAND, so I have seen both the good and the bad. The entire inspection idea was conceived by my mentor, Dr. James I. Hambleton, Chief Apiarist of the Federal Government Dept. of Agriculture. The program was announced in 1922 and the whole idea at that time was to control the spread of American Foul Brood, then infecting 1/3 of all the colonies in the U. S. The inspection program reduced the average annual infection rate of AFB colonies to less than 2% nationwide. Now, in 2002, many parts of the country have a lot more to be concerned about than AFB. During the past 17 years (since 1984) we have several NEW diseases or pests that have brutally effected beekeeping and honey production in various parts of the country; e. g., tracheal mite, varroa mite, now mites resistant to both Apistan and CheckMite, small hive beetle (now in Maryland), Africanized bees being found on trucks, planes, and ships entering states distant from the Southwestern States, and now resistant AFB. There has always been a need for colony inspection, simply because many hobbyist beekeepers are not skilled in detection of these problems much less treatment of them, and, UNFORTUNATELY, many commercial beekeepers, already damaged by price wars caused by imported honey, object to inspection. Since there are almost no feral colonies left, some vegetable growers crops have been diminished due to lack of pollination, or these growers have had to add migratory bee pollination cost to their expenses. Iowa, in spite of its fame for growing corn, is also a honey producing state, and its bees need the protection attained by having annual bee inspections. Send the Governor and Legislative Chairpersons some of your IOWA honey with a letter requesting a meeting of the Iowa Beekeepers with them so you can enlighten them about the importance of apis mellifera to human food ecology. Most elected officials (in all states) have almost no knowledge of the importance of honey bee pollination to the human food supply. I hope that I have helped. BTW, if any IOWA beekeepers plan on attending the annual meeting of the American Beekeeping Federation in Savannah, Georgia from January 15-20, look me up and we can talk about bees and inspection. Everybody knows me, and I will be whizzing around on my electric scooter because I am partially disabled by strokes. It will do you Midwest corn growers good to visit one of the jewel cities of the South, one so pretty that General Sherman sent a letter to President Abraham Lincoln saying "This beautiful city is my Christmas gift to you, so I will not destroy any of it in my "march through Georgia". George W. Imirie Certified EAS Master Beekeeper Author of George's monthly PINK PAGES ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 19:04:13 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Imirie writes: <> Does anyone know why the infection rate rose so high? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:24:48 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dee Lusby Subject: Re: AFB infection rates In-Reply-To: <200112250421.fBP4Ltv17397@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi to all on BEE-l Robert Brenchley wrote: Does anyone know why the infection rate rose so high? Reply: Well most here I imagine will not like my answer but I am going to say it anyway. This is the time period of the 1920s and 1930s when beekeepers with the help of manufacturers first started really upsizing workercombs in the broodnests. If one were to follow all the various phasing in of larger cell sizing, one would note that with each upsizing a new problem arose of either secondary diseases or parsitic mites to todays problems of scavengers. In reverse when we first regressed down starting in the mid-1980s to early 1990s we again went into a situation were we could live with parasitic mites, but not make a liviable crop and still could not adequately control secondary diseases. This first sizing regression was to 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing range top tolerance. To control the harder secondary diseases and the first onces to appear, we had to regress down again to 4.9mm top tolerance for our foundation. We now again run a natural infestation rate of 1-2% for all foul broods combined, including chaulk, and now minor parasitic mite problems. Now we also cull combs to no more than 10% donres on any one frame. Notice I didn't say cull all drones. You need the drones. and by culling to 10% on anyone frame you actually end up with more drones then fewer. But there is a difference here in the culling. For it disperses the drones and actually makes for more drones being continually reared throughout the active season, which is necessary for successful mating. Does small cell size work. Well, we are now 700 colonies with three deep unlimited broodnests plus honey supers and planning to expand this year to 900-1,000 colonies. We are now also going into 6 years plus on this second regression. Foul brood is no longer a problem. We take care of it the old way by pulling the infestation and melting the combs down and reprocessing the wax in a Kelly wax melter. We then make new foundation out of the reprocessed wax. Note, I did not say solar wax melter. Solar wax melters don't kill foul broods. ONly underwater bath Kelly wax melters do! Regards, Dee A. Lusby __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 13:45:30 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "From the Gussow's of Tucson,Arizona - Don't worry it's a dry heat!" Subject: Re: soil quality affects nectar quantity In-Reply-To: <200112231924.fBNJOfv11555@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday, December 23, 2001 Hello all on the Bee-l list & Mickey First I would like to say that an incomplete quote on another list isn't Kosher. That said and done you must also remember that in Arizona we don't have soy beans. Although Alfalfa is used here for seed purposes it doesn't mean that it can't be used for "Pet Feed" for the family pets that are rodents. Alfalfa and clover is used by farmers in the mid-west to enrich the soil and give a food source to dairy cattle in the case of Wisconsin were I am originally from. The problem with that is that many studies and wives tales sometime mix up the timing as to when to do just that. It's a real game as the T.V. show asked "Who do You Trust." While this site of discussion demands that there be proof I can only say that I have to go back to a beekeeper who was in his 90's when he told me that they can do both with clover dependent upon the "type" used and the intelligence of the farmer in question. There is also a possibility that you can go upstream in a boat with out a paddle too. They just prefer to believe that the feed in question isn't "liked" by their cows as much. I have yet to see a cow turn down a meal of any kind. Since I am the author of the incomplete message I will give it to you from my files. Since I have all the e-mails that I send out from my location in there full and complete sending of those messages. Don't understand I will reply to any questions then. However the soil that is bad can be enriched with legume management if that is the problem of nitrogen in the soil. Other wise it would be poor soil that can be managed by adding other natural needs. Here is my statement: Fri 12/21/01 4:03 PM "Hello all and Micky Near St. Louis, MO., US of A In reference to what Micky wrote dated 12/ 20/2001 : "By and large, the crops farmers raise in this area, do not require honeybees for pollination. Corn, alfalfa, other hay crops, and soy beans." The last time I looked "Alfalfa" and "Soy Beans" are a source for pollination by bees. There is a rule in nature called survival of the fittest it applies to those organisms that can or are able to survive or hunt but now that term seems to mean other things like adapting to a changing conditions in nature. Alfalfa is a very good honey for advantages to the honey packer. I don't know about Soy beans as much. Here in the southwest the trees have ponds like Soy beans but not quite the same. However the mite problem does give the honeybee in a domestic hive and well taken care of will benefit more because the competition was eliminated. However just to what that will have is dependent on the beekeepers who know how to take care of their hives and swarm control methods that the beekeeper uses. The longer that good management is used and kept in check will determine how long the good seasons you have. This is not a complete answer however as it all depends on weather and crop selection by the farmers as well. Respectfully submitted Harvey" In order to understand this you should be a part of the other list. Respectfully submitted Harvey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:01:50 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by arl@Q7.NET to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=94645258) (60 lines) ------------------- Subject: RE: Re: AFB infection rates Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:04:59 -0500 From: "Al Lipscomb" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Many things contributed to the high rates. Honey bee colonies were at a high density. Both domestic and feral hives were everywhere. The Italian strain, with its stronger tendency to rob had gained favor. The infection took long enough to become fatal to allow the colony to linger as a source of infection and after death remain to continue as a source of spores. Since the inspection program did so well, I would also guess that beekeeping was gaining ground as a hobby. But (nod to George) there were a lot more beeHavers than BeeKeepers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Kelly wax melters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This message was originally submitted by dhenry@SKYWEB.CA to the BEE-L list at LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU. It was edited to remove excessive quotes of previously posted material. ----------------- Original message (ID=1E0783DF) (41 lines) ------------------- From: "Doug Henry" To: "Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology" Subject: RE: AFB infection rates Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 16:03:51 -0600 Greetings, is it possible to post more info on the underwater bath Kelly wax melters? Tnx Doug Henry Lockport Manitoba VE4TG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:47:48 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Why Beekeepers Trucks Are Never Stolen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dick Allen wrote: Beekeepers: This was from the Southern Oregon Beekeepers Association which was reprinted in The Bee Line, newsletter of the Oregon State Beekeepers Association.... The article quoted from the Oregon State Beekeepers Association was written by Dave Green and posted to BEE-L on September 5, 2001. Aaron Morris - thinking give credit where credit's due! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 07:35:53 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: inspection data Comments: cc: Inger Lamb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I did not get into this discussion when it first came up as I was too busy at the time. New York State did away with its inspection program in the early/mid 90s (I don't trecall the exact date, but believe it was closer to the beginning of the decade). In the later half of the decade, a concentrated effort by beekeepers to write their political representatives was successful in reinstating the state inspection program. The first year of inspection reinstatement targeted mainly migratory beekeepers coming through the state. Subsequent years (2001 was the third year of the reinstated inspection program) saw more emphasis put on inspecting local, in-state hives. This past year saw a concerted effort to inspect hobbiest hives in a large number of counties. Preliminary reports show a marked increase of AFB since the inspection program ceased in the early 90s. Again I do not have the exact data but guess that incidence jumped from 1% of inspected hives to 5% or greater this past year. Furthermore, ALL cases of AFB dscovered this year were assessed for resistence to oxytetracycline, with many cases showing resistence. Resistence was documented in many counties, as opposed to finding definite pockets of resistence. Speculation is that resistent strains might be found state-wide if one looked close enough. I do not know if all of the data has been tabulated and ready for release for public view. The inspection program is run by the NYS Department Of Agricultire and Markets. Aaron Morris - thinking when the cat's away the AFB will increase! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:19:10 -0800 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: huestis Subject: Re: Kelly wax melters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, > Greetings, is it possible to post more info on the underwater bath Kelly > wax melters? reply: Dadants, Hive and The Honey bee (newest edition). And see how to biologically handle AFB combs to process the wax: Pg.689 5. Slumgum from efficient wax extraction devices(devices using hotwater, steam and pressure) "WILL" DESTROY american foulbrood spores; however, slumgum from solar wax melters may still contain viable spores (they don't work, clay). Though it is not attractive to bees, slumgum from solar melters SHOULD be destroyed. For exact details on this I could forward a post from Biobee list to bee-l if anyone if interested. Clay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:10:11 -0700 Reply-To: BEEHAVER Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: BEEHAVER Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Well most here I imagine will not like my answer Aww. C'mon. That's a terrible way to start. Kinda gets a person's back up. You know we love your answer. Many of us anticipate your explanations as eagerly as we await our daily 'Joke of the Day' email. (Perhaps a few of us find the assertion, repeated often, that there is one single cause for all the ills that befall honey bees to be a joke that is wearing thin, but then they'll likely have you in their kill file). Most of us who understand logic appreciate the predictable chuckle. > This is the time period of the 1920s and 1930s when > beekeepers with the help of manufacturers first started > really upsizing workercombs in the broodnests. Also the time when automobiles became popular and roads were improving. Just to mention the obvious. Post hoc ergo proper hoc is a popular fallacy. (http://skepdic.com/posthoc.html) > To control the harder secondary diseases and the first > onces to appear, we had to regress down again to 4.9mm top > tolerance for our foundation. We now again run a natural > infestation rate of 1-2% for all foul broods combined, > including chaulk, and now minor parasitic mite problems. 4.9 mm is an appropriate size of cell for the AHB that apparently predominate in Arizona. Also apparently, as AHB moved into your area and you selectively bred from and adapted to this stock (which has strains that are reportedly quite disease and parasite resistant) you discovered you had better success. > Does small cell size work. Well, we are now 700 colonies > with three deep unlimited broodnests plus honey supers and > planning to expand this year to 900-1,000 colonies. We are > now also going into 6 years plus on this second regression. Post hoc ergo proper hoc? Or are you running controls? Science demands this. Have you hives on normal sized foundation in similar locations under similar management to show what the influences of the smaller cell size are? Or is this a matter of faith? Over the timespan you have been adapting there are many other influences that have changed. What is to say that the size of cell has any influence whatsoever, or that the change in cell size is not due to a change in genetic stock? I understand that some in the south are in denial that they are now running AHB. Apparently some even greased the skids under the Tucson lab when it got to talking about this. > Foul brood is no longer a problem. We take care of it the > old way by pulling the infestation and melting the combs > down and reprocessing the wax in a Kelly wax melter. Seems pretty much like what the Auzzies and Kiwis have been doing on normal comb with similar results. In fact, I believe Ohio had AFB down to something like (working from memory) 1/10% without medication at one time, without drugs. B Haver ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 05:11:21 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Robert Brenchley Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All. Thanks for the answers to my query. The only thing is, both the main factors mentioned so far - cell size and colony density - also applied in the UK, and we didn't have an epidemic. It's possible, of course, that acarine disease may have reduced colony density here before another factor - such as cell size increases - came into play. When did AFB become such a problem in the States? Regards, Robert Brenchley RSBrenchley@aol.com Birmingham, UK. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dan McFeeley Subject: Re: Radicals and honey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Mon, 24 Dec 2001, Ahlert Schmidt posted: >Radical honey. >The antioxidant benefits of fruits, vegetables, red wine, tea and other >food-stuffs are well known, but what about honey? New research has shown >that honey posesses antioxidant actions, with darker honeys having a greater >capacity for oxygen radical absorbance. The results, presented at the recent >annual meeting of the Institute of Food Technologists (New Orleans, LA; USA), >also revealed that the antioxidant properties of honey are primarily due to >the presence of phenolic compounds . . . Has this been written up in the literature? I'm doing some private research on my own into this and would be very interested in any available literature citations. Thanks in advance! <><><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><> Dan McFeeley mcfeeley@keynet.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 03:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Dick Allen Subject: post hoc ergo propter hoc BEEHAVER: >Aww. C'mon. That's a terrible way to start. Kinda gets a person's back up. You know we love your answer. >Many of us anticipate your explanations as eagerly as we await our daily 'Joke of the Day' email. (Perhaps a few of us find the assertion, repeated often, that there is one single cause for all the ills that befall honey bees to be a joke that is wearing thin, but then they'll likely have you in their kill file). Most of us who understand logic appreciate the predictable chuckle. That was unnecessary. There is absolutely no reason for such insults. >post hoc ergo proper hoc It is correctly spelled post hoc ergo propter hoc Dick Allen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 04:53:50 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Well most here I imagine will not like my answer > Many of us anticipate your explanations as eagerly as we await our daily > 'Joke of the Day' email. Beehave yourself, Beehaver :) Just because someone has a chip and begs for someone to knock it off doesn't mean that we have to do so -- no matter how tempting it may be, or how gently it is acomplished. > > This is the time period of the 1920s and 1930s when > > beekeepers with the help of manufacturers first started > > really upsizing workercombs in the broodnests. Dee has an interesting point here, and although I don't think she has nearly proven that 4.9 is the 'natural size' that she claims it is, we are indebted to her for tirelessly pointing out that cell size on some commercial foundation is ridiculously large and that, furthermore, benefits claimed for upsizing foundation from around the 5.1 to 5.2 mm range are not well proven -- if proven at all. Not only are such benefits questionable, but heretofore there has been insufficient consideration of possible deleterious aspects to the practice. The real problem, in my mind, is whether there is *any* foundation size which can claim to be a universal fit, as has been assumed -- without much thought -- for several generations now. I wonder if the whole concept of foundation is a bad idea and an abuse of bees, but that is another topic. > Post hoc ergo proper hoc is a popular fallacy. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is possibly THE most popular fallacy, although there are several others that crop up again and again, and which render many seemingly obvious conclusions false. A chronological relationship may imply causality, but unless causality is clearly proven, coincidence may well be the the best explanation. > > To control the harder secondary diseases and the first > > onces to appear, we had to regress down again to 4.9mm top > > tolerance for our foundation. This is a very interesting claim. I hope that there is some basis for comparison here. I'd like to hear how this observation is supported. > > We are now also going into 6 years plus on this second regression. I wonder what this means exactly? On a 'second regression', what is the size of cell, and is this what you used to call retrogression, Dee? I haven't kept up with the jargon.. >...are you running controls? Science demands this. Very true, and often forgotten. > > Foul brood is no longer a problem. We take care of it the > > old way by pulling the infestation and melting the combs > > down and reprocessing the wax in a Kelly wax melter. Steve Tabor wrote an interesting article in a recent US bee magazine about how destruction of hives with even one cell of AFB, rather than hives that were entirely overcome, resulted in selection *away from* AFB resistance instead of towards resistance as intended. Steve's is a subltle argument which is lost on many, and I am not sure I understand it entirely, but in this era of IPM, it may be germane. His constant emphasis on hygienic behaviour over the years has perhaps proven to be a beacon. The outcome of breeding for HYG is still unclear, but few doubt that it is a step in the right direction. What exactly happened to allow AFB to get the the epidemic proportions it did in the last century in the US is a very difficult topic and extremely hard to research. The writing of the time was based on assumptions that are less obvious now, and the meanings of words change. One thing is clear: the movement towards universal adoption of moveable comb and the consequent universal adoption of foundation was promoted and accepted as a solution, rather than an exacerbation of the problem at the time. As a side note, when Adony presented his material on the survey of HYG in bees in Northern Aberta, the conclusion was that there is quite a way to go yet to get to HYG, but my personal observation from the data was -- if I did not get it wrong -- is that there is a surprising level of HYG out there already. I noted that some commercial strains do seem to show slight advantages already -- without the breeders having made overt attempts to select for this trait specifically. I suspect in the next ten years, we will see some real impact as stronger emphasis is brought to bear. > Seems pretty much like what the Auzzies and Kiwis have been doing on normal > comb with similar results. In fact, I believe Ohio had AFB down to > something like (working from memory) 1/10% without medication at one time, > without drugs. That is still too high. allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:15:10 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Radicals and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Radical honey... > Has this been written up in the literature? The National Honey Board has information on their web page. The specific article is: http://www.honey.com/pressrm/antiox01.html I suspect there might be more in their pages, but I haven't dug all that deep. Truth be told I've been a bit disappointed with the amount of publicity given to the Anti-O properties of honey. It seems that's a message that the NHB (and beekeepers too) should be shouting from every mountain top! Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:39:50 -0600 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Blane White Subject: Re: AFB infection rates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Everyone, Robert asks an interesting question regarding AFB infection rates in the US in the early part of the 20th century. Many factors combined to lead to this and I will surely miss some but it appears to me that they included: The bees in common use were quite suspectable to the infection. The beekeepers didn't understand the nature of the disease. There were no drugs that could be successfully used to control the disease at the time. I suspect that the most important factor was the lack of knowledge of the disease and how it spreads. Even now the most common method of spread of AFB is beekeepers moving combs from infected to uninfected colonies. If they didn't understand that doing this would spread the problem, they would have quickly spread it throughout their outfits in their efforts to boost the weak colonies and protect the equipment from the weak and dead colonies from the wax moth. In many parts of the world today, they control the infection very effectively by buring infected combs and shaking the bees unto foundation ( if there are enough bees to be worth saving ). In the 1920's it was observed that buring the infected combs stopped the spread of the disease and that was the key to controling it by inspection and destruction. When you don't think infection contol you are very likely to spread the infection. FWIW blane ****************************************** Blane White MN Dept of Agriculture blane.white@state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:03:33 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Cure all bee diseases In-Reply-To: <200112270500.fBR50Fv04317@listserv.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings! Having seen a definite need for a cure for all bee diseases as well as the various other ills which befall honey bee colonies, I have decided to divulge a little known but sure-fire technique that I use. By simply removing the hive cover and placing on one the special cloths, I find the colony to be thenceforth protected from any and all ills that plague us beekeepers. These cloths are made locally, in rural NY, by Mennonite families. For more info, email me. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:01:18 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Prayer Cloth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Friends I am sorry to disappoint you, but there "ain't no such thing". If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. Beekeeping is hard work and if anyone tells you otherwise, or that there is one answer to all the hard questions, tell them to take a hike. Please forgive my cheeky attempt at humor. PB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:16:29 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Wesley A Voigt Jr Subject: Gifts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just run across an organization some of you might know about and could share your thoughts about it how good they are - Heifer International. They seem to be a group that donates livestock and training to disadvantaged people around the world, helping families become self reliant. The area I am interested in is the bees. The supply the family with bees, the hive, and training in beekeeping. Are there any other groups that work with getting local people into Beekeeping? Oh yes - The phone number for Heifer International is 800.422.0755 and the web site is www.heifer.org Thanks for your help Wes Voigt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 17:36:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: "W. Allen Dick" Subject: Re: Bee-Pro >>I'd like to know if anyong using this product has seen a noticable >>increase in brood rearing that can be atributed to Bee-Pro. Has anyone >>studied the contents of the product to see how the proteins compair to >>real pollens. Any comments would be appreciated. >We know some beekeepers who use that specific product for building up large >populations early to make up splits to take north from Texas. They mix it >with corn syrup to a somewhat loose consistancy, as it will set up harder, >like cookie dough. They apply it once a month. > >In our operation in Northern Michigan, we start putting on pollen >"sub"(substitute) in March with snow still on the ground. We open 'em up, >put on a slab of pollen sub with a hive tool on top of the brood nest. We >also will put on a bucket of feed if necessary. The time for making spring patties is fast approaching, so I've been rooting around in the archives for an hour or so, going over what we have discussed about pollen supplementation and substitution over the past decade or so. I realise that there is really no substitute for real fresh high quality pollen, but wonder what is new this year on the market or in peoples' minds. We have been using yeast and soy and sugar with enough (3%) pollen to attract bees or the same formula without pollen. This is is summarised at http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Misc/Pollen/PollenSup.htm The supplier we used -- California spray dry has apparently stopped drying yeast due to energy problems and we have heard that there is a supplier in Kansas that is as good, but we are also noticing that maybe the price spread between Bee-Pro and yeast is not what it used to be. Since we have to make some changes, anyhow, we are wondering if there are any new commercial feeds on the market and if we should use a commercial diet instead of our own mix. Is Bee-Pro a good substitute? Is it better than yeast? Is there a competitor on the market that is giving Mann Lake a run for its money? Hope some of the enquiring minds out there -- who need to know -- know, and share... allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/Diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:53:57 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Allen Dick [mailto:allend@INTERNODE.NET] > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 6:54 AM > To: BEE-L@listserv.albany.edu > Subject: Re: AFB infection rates > [cut] > Steve Tabor wrote an interesting article in a recent US bee > magazine about how destruction of hives with even one cell of > AFB, rather than hives that were entirely overcome, resulted > in selection *away from* AFB resistance instead of towards > resistance as intended. > I wish I would have seen that article. (thinking out loud) I would guess that destroying a hive with a small amount of AFB would be jumping the gun. The hive has not demonstrated a weakness, yet. If the AFB gets worse the hive is not resistant and the genetics need to be removed from the yard. If the hive cleans out the AFB then it is resistant and you want those genes in your pool. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Al Lipscomb Subject: Re: AFB infection rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Thanks for the answers to my query. The only thing is, > both the main factors mentioned so far - cell size and colony > density - also applied in the UK, and we didn't have an > epidemic. My thoughts are that the strain of bees involved (Italian) with it's tendency to rob may have been part of the problem. Also American Foul Brood is misnamed. I believe it came from Europe (European Foul Brood from the United States). I believe the names came from where they started causing problems. The European bee population may have already developed a resistant trait to the bacteria involved. When the bacteria arrived in the United States, with its relatively closed gene pool, things got out of hand. Just my thoughts. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Bill Truesdell Subject: Re: Gifts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wesley A Voigt Jr wrote: > > I have just run across an organization some of you might know about and could > share your thoughts about it how good they are - Heifer International. -snip- The area I > am interested in is the bees. Good organization. We had a beekeeper speak to us about his involvement and I was impressed. It is difficult work since it involves more than just teaching how to keep bees, but also marketing the product in a very different society. Both parties learn. One of my relatives gave to it this year in our name, since I am a beekeeper. Appreciated the gesture. They are in the business of "teaching to fish" along with giving the tools/animals to do it. Doing everything right for the right reasons. More information about them is at http://www.heifer.org/ Bill Truesdell Bath, ME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Re: Gifts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Wes Voigt wrote: > Are there any other groups that work with getting > local people into Beekeeping? Oh yes - The phone number for Heifer > International is 800.422.0755 and the web site is www.heifer.org Thanks for > your help Check the BEE-L archives, specifically: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0012D&L=bee-l&P=R2096 and http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0012E&L=bee-l&P=R230 There was some concern that Heifer donations intended for beekeeping purposes may actually end up in a "general fund". At EAS 2001 at MMA, Nicola Bradbear spoke about her association with "Bees for Developement". A fascinating approach to helping developing countries with beekeeping in a manner that is sustainable within the realm of their own culture. A single sentence cannot do justice to their program, but I have not the time to write more. Surf to: http://www.planbee.org.uk/index.htm Aaron Morris: thinking my donations would go to "Bees for Developement"! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Scott Moser Subject: Pollen Substitute Greetings All, Allen posted a request for information about other pre made pollen substitutes on the market. Around the St. Louis area, many of us use a pollen sub called Bee Pol, produced by International Ingredients Company. It is sold in 50 pound bags, and priced a quite a bit lower than Mann Lake, or other supplements on the market. Dr. Ray Nabors did a study on the effectiveness of this particular pollen substitute, and it surpassed the others that are on the market today. Their webpage is located at: http://www.iicag.com/ Look under the products section, and a short excerpt about the product can be found there. For more info, and a copy of the fact sheet and probably a copy of the Nabors' research, contact then via phone or snail mail. I have used this before, fed both wet and dry and it works great. One of our locals has designed and placed a pollen tray on top of his hives all winter long, because around here the past few years, winter weather has been warm enough to break cluster every couple of days. His hope is that the bees will use the substitute more readily, and come through winter stronger, and build up faster. We will see what happens. Happy Holidays to all! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Aaron Morris Subject: Bee Pol, produced by International Ingredients Company MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well I took a quick look. Having never tried the product I have no opinion. Based on their web page I have a few observations. > It is sold in 50 pound bags, and priced a quite a bit lower > than Mann Lake, or other supplements on the market. Well, it's a third sugar! "NO sugars or corn syrup need to be added, as Bee Pol already contains sugar." I imaging a good deal of the price differential can be attributed to this. I wonder how far a 50lb bag of Bee Pol goes compared to a 50lb bag of Bee Pro. And I wonder how the dollars compare once the Bee Pro is mixed (I add sugar when I make up my patties and lots more pollen than Allen uses in his recipe). Is the sugar in Bee Pol more expensive than sugar off the shelf? There's also no price list. I keep wondering about the bottom line. Before everyone (or anyone) jumps on me, I have no opinion of this product. No experience, no opinion. Adding up the percentages of the product list comes to approximately 75%. I wonder what the other 25% is. And what is "Salmonella" under "Physical Properties". Is that something I want to be feeding my bees? I would be interested in seeing Dr. Ray Nabors' data sheets. And I guess I should be asking these questions of International Ingredients Company, but I'm being lazy. Happy New Year to all my internet beekeeping buddies! Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:34:01 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pollen Substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Allen posted a request for information about other pre made pollen > substitutes on the market. Around the St. Louis area, many of us use a > pollen sub called Bee Pol, Thanks! This looks like a good link for brewers yeast too. I'll have to contact them. One other pointer to a liquid protein feed additive (developed by a beekeeper) arrived by direct email and I am hoping the writer will share it with the list as well. If no one else mentions it, I will post more after I look into it. For now, I am just gathering ideas, and, don't worry I WILL check everything out very thoroughly before diving in. So please don't be shy folks. Let's have some more ideas! allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:46:13 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lee Gollihugh Subject: Re: Radicals and honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan McFeeley ask: antioxidant actions, ... Has this been written up in the literature? > > Thanks in advance! Dan; Try the National Honey Board's web site. Put in nhb - and push enter. Its there some where. Good luck on your research. Please share it with those of us on this site, please? Regards, Lee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Allen Dick Subject: Re: Pollen Substitute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > substitutes on the market. Around the St. Louis area, many of us use a > pollen sub called Bee Pol, produced by International Ingredients Company. I called them up and talked to Fred who, was very helpful. He gave me a price of about 42c/lb in skid (a ton? FOB a town near Demoines, Iowa and he'll be following up with some more info beyond what is at http://www.iicag.com/beepol.html Appently the salmonella reference is screwed up and should read 'salmonella free'. More to follow... allen http://www.internode.net/honeybee/diary/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:31:17 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Lloyd Spear Subject: Pollen substitutes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In 2001, Dadant introduced their Brood Builder and I have heard glowing r= eports. B & B also introduced a product that I understand was used fairl= y extensively in Calif. I forget the name. 800-342-4811. I have not tried either, as I always trap lots of pollen for my 100-hive = operation. Lloyd Lloyd Spear, Owner of Ross Rounds, Inc. Manufacturer of round comb honey equipment and Sundance pollen traps ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:05:36 +0000 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Kilty Subject: Re: Radicals and honey Comments: To: Ahlert Schmidt In-Reply-To: <200112241347.fBODlIv00911@listserv.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 In message <200112241347.fBODlIv00911@listserv.albany.edu>, Ahlert Schmidt writes >Radical honey. >The antioxidant benefits of fruits, vegetables, I have heard that sun-ripened fruit and veg have glyco-nutrients (several complex sugars which the body creates with some expenditure of energy from glucose) which are apparently amazingly beneficial to health. My homoeopath has started a phone-in on the subject as applied to a huge range of health problems. Does anyone know if honey has these in it? -- James Kilty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 16:47:13 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: James Fischer Subject: Antioxidant Claims For Honey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Morris said: > Truth be told I've been a bit disappointed with the amount of > publicity given to the Anti-O properties of honey. It seems that's a > message that the NHB (and beekeepers too) should be shouting > from every mountain top! Yes, you can shout, but be careful what you shout. Take extreme care when speaking about antioxidant properties. Avoid appearing to be making "health claims". Both the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) and the FDA (Food and Drug Administration) have regulatory authority over such claims. The FTC has stomped hard on several vitamin supplement companies who made claims about antioxidants, so tread with care. The states tend to follow the lead of the FDA and FTC in picking targets for "enforcement". Every state has some form of "food and label" group, who would be the likely enforcing authority to stomp on a beekeeper or non-national honey packager. In short, you can shout about antioxidants all you want, but don't make any claims that antioxidants have any specific impact on health or disease. In my personal view, the mere statement that honey is "a good antioxidant" carries the clear implication that there is some health advantage, but the FDA seems to tolerate this. But stop there. Say no more. Say nothing about what antioxidants might do for anyone, since that is where you will get into trouble. Current FDA regulations specify that no diet-disease relationship can be discussed in labeling unless FDA has determined that the relationship is supported by "significant scientific agreement." To date, only eleven categories of health claims have been approved for labeling under this standard, and none of them have anything to do with antioxidants. Don't get angry at me about any of this - I'm not denying that the bulk of the antioxidant studies show advantages to health, I'm just telling you that the FDA and FTC are not yet convinced. (I'm a good boy, and take my betacarotene pills every day. We also use lots of honey. Our apiary's motto is "We eat all we can, and sell the rest".) By "labeling" the FDA means claims that one can make on a product's label and package, but the term "labeling" has often been read to include point-of-sale displays, signs, and hand-out flyers when it has come time to fine offenders and write injunctions. The FDA likes to see "qualification statements" made when one brings up things like the "antioxidant properties" of a food or drug. Here is the gist of what the FDA would like to see: The first level of qualification for an antioxidant claim would be the advisory that science will not be sure about the health benefits of antioxidants until longer term research is completed. The second level qualification would be that some recent studies had failed to find a cancer reduction benefit for antioxidant supplements. The third and strongest qualification is that a recent study reported that high doses of an antioxidant may actually have increased the risk of cancer among smokers. This was a reference to a 1994 clinical study of the health effects of beta carotene supplementation among smokers in Finland. But, even a well-qualified statement can be rejected by the FDA. The FDA is being sued by Wellness Lifestyles Inc., Pure Encapsulations Inc. and the American Preventive Medical Association, over the FDA's rejection of the statement: "Antioxidant vitamins may reduce the risk of certain kinds of cancers." ...with an accurate and appropriate disclaimer. Bottom line, take care. I've never had to convince anyone that honey was good FOR them. It seems enough that honey is "good". Some even consider it an decadent indulgence. I'm not about to argue with them. jim farmageddon (where our explosives permits come in handy at midnight on New Years) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:57:15 EST Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: CSlade777@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AFB Infection Rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 28/12/01 05:04:13 GMT Standard Time, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU writes: << .are you running controls? Science demands this. Very true, and often forgotten. >> No, Dee doesn't run controls. But then she doesn't claim to be a scientist. She is a very busy beekeeper with a living to make from her bees. She has found what works for her and is kindly sharing her findings with us. However, she would find it much easier to get her ideas more generally accepted if she did run controls. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology Sender: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology From: Peter Borst Subject: Satire Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings I want to add a brief apology for using the Mennonites in my brief attempt at satire. I did not intend to cast them in a dim light. I merely intended to point to the error in looking for any panacea. I don't doubt that faith is useful tool; I doubt you need any particular cloth, though. Happy New Year!